Laura asks: I recently dated a man and decided to ‘opt out’ cordially before it all got messy, as he has many female friends. In fact, almost all of his good friends are female. Now, he isn’t sleeping with them, and they’ve all been friends for many years, never dated each other, etc. But the amount of sway these gals have in his personal life is staggering! It’s almost like they were all mother-in-laws, constantly around, always showing up at his house, giving their opinions, guiding him about what to do with me in the relationship, etc.
They caused quite a great deal of upset in our relationship. And although I tried talking to him about it quite a few times, he would talk to them, and not me, about our relationship. It got to the point where I simply chose not to deal with them (or him) anymore because it wasn’t worth the upset and feeling bad, unsure, and confused, about it all the time.
What are acceptable boundaries to expect respect about from family, friends, and the like? Is it reasonable to expect that the person you’re involved with should stand up for you, the relationship, and basically not allow others to ‘interfere’ to the point of destructively influencing the relationship?
What your guy has is a narcissistic harem, a load of women clucking around him giving him an ego stroke. Why extend yourself to a one-on-one relationship when you can have a host of women pandering to your whims and making you feel like the Big Man?
In the narcissistic harem, they can be ex-lovers, friends, colleagues, family, etc. No matter how “platonic” they claim it to be, at least a few of these women have designs on your ex. They have an attitude of if they can’t have him, no one else will.
These women are like a fortress, of his own making, and they are the perfect foil.
When he thinks about why he hasn’t held down a relationship, he’ll claim he hasn’t met the “right woman”. He can legitimise that view with the validation of his expert team of cluckers.
As annoying as these people (the harem) are, the fact that they impacted your relationship says more about him than it does about them. He’s a man of free will and old enough to make up his own mind.
His allowing these women to have so much sway is because it suits him.
The truth is, this guy doesn’t want a relationship. He might say he does, but his actions say differently.
Just like the guy who’s living with his mother when he’s fifty for no other reason than convenience and a housekeeper on tap, if your guy genuinely wanted a relationship, he’d create the right environment for one. No man with a load of interfering women around him screams ‘date me’.
That he will sell you down the river to appease his friends/family makes him a spineless tit.
These are not attractive qualities in a romantic partner. You need to feel that there is mutual love, care, trust, and respect. And you can’t trust this guy.
I know tonnes of people with friends and a relationship, and none of them behave like your ex. Fact is, this is not the first time he’s experienced the drama with his harem. Don’t get it twisted and think you’re the first.
You did the best thing possible: opt out. Do not engage in this drama and try to compete. While there’s an issue with the harem, the bigger issue is how he handles himself. You’re being set up to fail. His lack of healthy boundaries with these women affects your relationship, and that’s on him.
Don’t fall on your sword trying to get the harem to make you the exception to the rule.
A partner’s friends don’t have to like you, but it’s obviously great if they do. Everyone needs to be respectful, and it’s an impossible environment when they hold too much sway or it’s hostile.
Some people hold you to impossible standards, that if you’re that great a person, you’ll bulldoze the obstacle course of their friends and family. This is dodging responsibility for managing their boundaries and relationships.
As they are his people, it’s his responsibility to draw the boundary lines, not yours. This means when they run their mouths saying inappropriate stuff and interfering, he should say, ‘Guys, I appreciate your concern, and I’m sure you all only want the best for me, but Laura’s who I’m dating. I’d appreciate if you’d all step back a little and let me figure this out myself’. If they say stuff that’s untrue, he should call them on it.
As partners, you will never learn to communicate or resolve conflict if one party is running squawking to their friends and family each time. It’s immature, and he is actually helping to communicate the wrong things about your relationship.
You want a partner who is loving, supportive, and trustworthy.
Partners don’t have to blindly support us and agree with everything we say and do. However, as a basic courtesy, they should under no circumstances enable situations where we’re effectively being put down/slagged off and they just sit there.
Depending on how long you’re together and what you’ve both established is the nature of the relationship, it may at times be ‘difficult’ for them to stand up for the relationship. This may be because it’s not exclusive, or it’s ambiguous, and commitment dodgers don’t like to say they’re ‘in’ more than they are.
In your circumstance Laura, I would imagine that this is part of it. However, even if the exact nature of your relationship is unclear, as a basic courtesy, they can still stand up for you by nipping these conversations in the bud simply by changing the topic, even. This amount of drama while dating is a code red; abort mission.
People who have your partner’s best interests at heart will at least attempt to embrace people they meet and be happy that they’re happy.
It’s not a good indicator when a romantic partner hands over their life to others and takes no responsibility. It’s like you’re in a relationship with all his friends and family too.
Of course it’s okay for a partner to seek other people’s opinions. However, it’s disrespectful to not speak about issues with you. Sometimes we try to organise our thoughts with people that know us really well so that we don’t end up saying or doing something. We’re sanity checking. You shouldn’t, however, feel excluded from issues in your own relationship.
The trouble with this guy is that issues were going to be created anyway.
It’s disruptive when people think they can just show up at your home whenever they like, especially in these circumstances. It’s a simple case of calling before you show up. I would have been like, ‘Oh, it’s a shame you didn’t call beforehand. We’re just on our way out!’
It’s a case of ‘If I need your help or advice, I will ask for it’.
Ultimately, if a partner’s friends and family are destructively influencing the relationship, it’s like you’re a one-person army doing battle with their armed force. You’ll put up a good fight; you’ll be brave to even try. Eventually, though, you realise it’s not worth the energy. Their army exists because they want them there and/or they’re lacking balls. So really you’re fighting him. There’s nothing wrong with you expecting a partner to create healthy boundaries, but recognise that there’s a big issue when they won’t.
Your thoughts?
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hmm, my ex had a harem, and even though he insisted they were all just “friends”, I was also considered a “friend” even though we were dating. So I walked away, the fact that he kept insisting, really made the whole situation fishy.
I know he liked to have his ego stroked, my being told how handsome he is, etc, and I’d rather not be involved with that behavior. I also refuse to be just another in his or anyone’s harem. so be it.
A “Narcissitic Harem”? Where do I get one? They sound like fun!
I know that women like self-absorbed men. I can get wrapped-up in myself. That’s fairly easy.
But its sad to report that I’ve never had a gaggle of sycophants milling around me discussing the finer points of my existence. I can only dream about that level of social proof and pre-selection.
Of course, this guy doesn’t want a relationship, but that doesn’t stop women pining after him does it?
and there you have it ladies, a male viewpoint on the matter. they like having a harem, not because they are poor confused babes who aren’t ready for a relationship just yet, but because it confers status (in their eyes at least, and probably in eyes of their male friends and the harem itself who seem to like the competition). also, even though they want female attention they look down on us for giving it to them (i don’t see “sycophant” as a compliment!). maybe that’s why he doesn’t want a proper relationship – he doesn’t respect you (or any other woman to be fair). and possibly not himself for wanting something he doesn’t really … value.
odd and strange, don’t engage but move along!
Bingo Grace! I’ve said this earlier on some other articles but my ex had the harem of “friends”. Once I took the rose colored glasses off it became clear that every woman was an ego stroke to say the least. Sadly I had to admit that I was one as well and opted out with no warning whatsoever. He was stupified and told everyone as such. Female friendships to an EUM are a matter of getting their needs met, conversely they never really make any of them “the one” because deep down they don’t really respect anyone that can’t actually see thier shenanigans. That’s why I feel that classic EUM’s and AC’s are in a virtual catch-22 forever unless they actually get to a point of self introspection. Part of me still wants to believe some of them are smart enough to figure out that they need to change. Sigh. 😉
“Female friendships to an EUM are a matter of getting their needs met, conversely they never really make any of them “the one” because deep down they don’t really respect anyone that can’t actually see thier shenanigans. That’s why I feel that classic EUM’s and AC’s are in a virtual catch-22 forever unless they actually get to a point of self introspection. Part of me still wants to believe some of them are smart enough to figure out that they need to change. Sigh. ;)”
Yes CC a catch 22! They don’t respect the girls who hang around wanting nothing more than to stroke their ego. But the girls like you and I (and a lot of others on this forum!) who’ve figured them out…once they know they’ve been found out for what they really are… the fun is over for them. Their cover is blown, and they really have no use for you after that. I say Good Riddance! To Natalie thanks for this post it’s a major issue! My last BF had a harem, and one of the ‘cluckers’ was one of his aunts, she and I used to be friends but she’s in such denial over him, thinks he’s the golden-boy, yeah I’m just going to stay away from the whole lot! I don’t need to be around them, they obviously don’t value me. I’ve even dated some guys who had harems that *weren’t even women*! And I’m not talking about gay men. I’m talking for instance one guy I dated behaved just this way, with the ‘shield’ I was supposed to get through, with his DOGS! I’m not kidding. Other guys will do this with children. Sometimes, it’s not even their children, they don’t have any kids, but are just ‘borrowing’ someone else’s child (such as a friend’s kid or a nephew, etc.), to use as this shield, this layer of insulation, that we’re supposed to try to overcome in order to get first billing in his life. How arrogant must these people be! As you said he should have a welcoming environment for a woman to come into, not set it up like a fortress, so that we’re supposed to do battle with whatever he’s insulating himself with, just to get close to him. No thanks!
I don’t think Joe is condoning it. He’s just being honest that it would boost ANYONE’s ego, man or woman.
Well, no, not *anyone*’s ego, not mine. Not everyone likes special attention from the opposite sex. I am a cute girl and there are plenty of men who would like to hang around me if I let them. But that won’t work for me. If I’m not attracted and interested in dating a man, then I’m not interested in receiving any ‘special attention’ from him. I have male friends. Guys who don’t like me ‘that way’ or vice versa, and I don’t phone them up talking out personal issues with them, or go out to dinner or parties with just them. It’s more if I’m someplace and he happens to be there we might chat with each other for a few. I actually dislike and avoid ‘special attention’ from men who I’m not dating.
Workshy Joe – a man wrapped up in himself isn’t attractive to me, but then I’ve had it with apparently charismatic types *yawns*…
Personally I feel irritated at general statements about ‘what women like’, but as I’m in a good mood I’ll let you off this time. Only once, mind…
I know women who do the same, I’ve done it with gay men. It is safe and ego boosting, yes it is. Anyone attractive that knows how to work it might just do that.
“I know women like self-absorbed men”. I ended my last relationship with a man because he was too self-absorbed. Not for me. Joe, you sound a bit arrogant – you presume to stereotype all women like this – actually insecure men and insecure women will probably allow self-absorbed behaviour to continue too long b/c they have poor boundaries.
A “bit” arrogant??…..ALOT arrogant.
Sofiexx, Ms Blue & Ramona, I agree I don’t like self-absorbed men. I TRY to avoid them if possible. Geez though some of them come across as modest and shy, but they’re just as arrogant and self-serving as the obvious ones. Maybe more so. Oh well I’ll just try to hone the radar a little more I guess 🙂 Work-Shy, I disagree and don’t know why you say “I know women like self absorbed men” You can’t possibly “Know” what I like. And even if you didn’t know, I would think that reading this blog would clue you in to the fact that most women, at least grown women who are ready for a healthy, committed relationship, disllike self-absorbed men.
This entry is perfect timing for me.
I have a dilemma with my current bf, he’s very close to his ex gf who he dated for a year and half 5 years ago, they share same group of friends, so I see why they are still good friends. However, the situation makes me very uncomfortable, they talk to each other on the phone 2 to 3 times a week, she posts comments on his fb wall daily, the worst part is when I met his mom this past weekend, she basically implied that she sees his ex gf as her own daughter since she doesnt have a daughter, and they still hang out regularly. The ex gf shows his mom the boys she’s dating etc.
(not sure how this is true, when she’s obviously single) My bf did tell his mom to stop talking about the ex when that happened, but she wouldn’t stop!
I have raised concerns about this to my bf multiple times, and told him how this makes me very uncomfortable, he has not done anything to change it so far, or he has and just does not bother to tell me. He is also friends with a few of his other exes and was thinking about going to one of them’s weddings. He’s definitely a little self-absorbed, likes to talk about how handsome, accomplished he is, but for the most part, I thought he was just joking, or just being playful, but after reading this post, I do get a sense of nacissism from him, I don’t see a reason for this type of excessive communication with an ex when you claim only being friends with them. I personally believe all friendships with exes are selfish and unfair to the current SO.
He told me many of the other girls he dated had a problem with the ex, so this is not news to him, and he still decided to keep the ex around, so my question is.. is the consistent ego stroke more important than a stable relationship for him? or he’s just not ready for a serious relationship? Even though he claims times after times how he wants one and loves me very much.
bubbles
I don’t believe that all friendships with exes are unfair, but most of them probably are, and this one definitely is.
You’ve raised it with him several times. He hasn’t changed. Raising it is not tackling it. Tackling it would be leaving him, his mother, and ex to get on with whatever soap opera they’ve got going. Leaving you free to find someone who is actually capable of a proper relationship.
You’ve got better things to do with your day/life than try to get a grown man to do/not do something.
You’re not quite asking the right question. It’s not “is x, y or z more important to him than a stable relationship?” He hasn’t done that math. He doesn’t care. He hasn’t give it any thought. He’s perfectly happy with numerous women clucking over him and a girlfriend who puts up with it. He doesn’t even know what a stable relationship is. Or he does and has decided very firmly that he doesn’t want it. If he did love you, he wouldn’t be speaking to his ex two or three times a week. That just doesn’t add up.
“He told me many of the other girls he dated had a problem with the ex, so this is not news to him, and he still decided to keep the ex around, so my question is.. is the consistent ego stroke more important than a stable relationship for him? or he’s just not ready for a serious relationship? Even though he claims times after times how he wants one and loves me very much.”
Bubbles,
I guess my question to you regarding all of your questions above- Does it really even matter? If he fancies you, he wouldn’t put you through any of this, you wouldn’t even be wondering about any of it. If someone is ready for a relationship and they are in one, the relationship is going along like a relationship. End of story. There are no fits and starts, no guessing. The man makes it very clear he wants to be with you. There is NO ambiguity. Also, do you think he is spending time, wondering about how all of this makes you feel, what effect these actions are having on you? NO WAY! Bubbles, if you’re going to spend your time with a man, you need to be with someone who deserves your time and attention and values it, treating it as if it’s worthy of his respect, time and attention.
Bubbles. “is the consistent ego stroke more important than a stable relationship for him?” Yes I think so. This is one of the aspects of my last relationship that hurt the most. To realize that, yes, the ego stroke from his ‘harem’ was more important to him than keeping me in his life. My guy also admitted to me that his behavior had drove away other women he’d dated in the past. But then on the other hand he , just as Natalie mentioned, made excuses for why he didn’t have a girlfriend. His chief excuse for not being able to keep a girlfriend was that it was because of his grueling work schedule. But the real reason was because he had a bunch of women “friends” all lined up on his backburner, and the girls he’s dated (including me) didn’t like it one bit. This situation you’re describing with your boyfriend sounds similar, in some ways, to my last guy, and actually to a few different men I’ve dated over the years. Looking at it from my perspective I hope you feel free to please walk away from that man and never look back. I’m sorry I know that’s easier said than done because you have feelings for him and hoped things would be different than they really are. It does sound to me like he is in a holding pattern, and this is the pattern that he will probably carry on for a very long time, maybe for the rest of his life. Even if he goes seperate ways finally from this particular ex-girlfriend that he’s so OVERLY-ENMESHED with, he will probably just move another one or more of his other shields more to the forefront, and continue to be unavailable. If in the future he has and keeps girlfriends around, it’s just a question of which of the girls he meets are willing to put up with this for longer. I don’t see why you should. You don’t like it (Understandably!) you’ve told him you don’t like it. He may verbally agree with you, but I really don’t believe he will change. I’ve come across too many men so much like him. I wish I had someone from the outside to look at it and give me an objective opinion, but you live, you learn. And sometimes you don’t realize what they’re like until you’ve dated them a little while and start to see that the ways they behave aren’t isolated incidents, but a part of a pattern. And I don’t think there is a certain ‘personality type’ that you can spot either. For instance you were saying that your man brags and comes across as arrogant. Well my last boyfriend (with the harem) came across as shy, unassuming, quiet, modest, polite and never cocky, the salt of the earth! I really had no idea he had all this activity going on with these other women, women he calls “friends”. But to my surprise he was a wolf in sheep’s clothing. I hope this has helped you make up your mind, good luck to you and I do hope you will consider walking away if it’s making you feel bad.
Introspection would be nice – my AC’s best friend kept fixing him up because the AC said “he was unlucky in love”. I don’t think luck had anything to do with it – it wasn’t lack of good luck it was lack of honesty, respect, love!
On the flip side Nat – I guess I had a harem of friends and family that did not get involved thou had their own opinions on the ex. They tried gently to get me to see the “light” and take off the rose colored glasses. I had alot of apologies to make – they were right. Wish I would have listened. So… that being said sometimes others can see what you cannot BUT you shouldn’t have to go through an interview from a panel of judges to date someone. Once the “relationship” has been established they need to butt out or you need to opt out.
“Once the “relationship” has been established they need to butt out or you need to opt out.”
Yes true, but … even that’s (the harem butting out) far less then ideal. My last claimed he would stop hanging around with his harem for me. So I thought, “Great, and then they’ll all gossip about how I won’t ‘let’ them hang with their precious “friend” any more. And how I’m sooo controlling.” You can’t win with guys like that. They have it set up from the start, so that even if they do stop the enmeshed behavior with the other women, YOU’RE still the bad guy! And still, sooner or later, something will come up, you’ll have a lovers’ spat with him, or one of his harem will have a crisis of some sort. And he WILL go back to them. And they’ll commiserate over how mean you were for keeping him away from her. Men really do need to have their lifestyles as such that it is ALREADY a comfortable and welcoming environment for a girlfriend to come into, and an environment that has enough room for you, not an environment that’s already being filled by the presence of someone or something else, that leaves no room for you to comfortably come in and take your rightful place.
Run, run away fast ladies.
I was married to a guy who had all these women around him. They were all ex girlfriends who he made into ‘best friends’, presumably so that he’d never have to face the pain of ending a relationship. The only person he ever did that with was me.
I lived with all these other women in my marriage for 15 years, plus the ‘new’ friends he found by chatting online all the time. It was always women who needed help. He was a good listener, so he took their problems and bought them into our marriage – he was ‘helping’ them apparently. God knows how. I’m happily divorced from this man now and am so happy with my partner of the last three years. No other women, no female ‘friends’ that hang around him, just him and me and respect and love. BLISSFUL!
Trust your instincts. If it feels wrong, that’s because it is.
belle
your post illustrates exactly why i don’t believe it’s a good idea to remain friends with an ex. the bottom line is – what happens when he gets married, will we be going to the wedding? when he has a child, will we be popping round to see the baby? is he going to go out with us for a drink and leave the wife at home? or will we all go out together like some kind of weird tribe? i just don’t see how it can work in practice long term.
i feel that men/women who make it a rule to stay friends with exes are probably just trying to prove something to themselves, that they are popular, worthwhile, not bad people etc. i suppose it can work for some but it’s an exception and i do wonder if all three parties are equally happy with it
surely it’s better to gracefully bow out of each other’s lives than have all this complication?
@ Grace, You’re funny and to the point. You make me laugh when you expose the bazaar behaviour for what it is. 😀 It’s so hilariously true!
Grace,
I think if a relationship ended respectfully, there is no reason not to continue a friendship. Personally, I know many couples who have remained friends, and have incorporated these people into their lives in a healthy way. There is a reason people are together for a long time, they respect and enjoy one another’s company , why not continue that in a platonic manner.
I agree completely. If there are no romantic feelings whatsoever then why not keep someone in your life that cares for you, respects you, knows you inside out, is always there for you and who you have an amazing bond with? Things and people change. Just because you once loved someone romantically, doesn’t mean that you can’t spentd time with the person after the fact. You’re not sitting there constantly thinking of the times when you were a couple – it seems, if anything, like another lifetime, like something that happened to someone else.
Things evolve and i for one think it’s best to embrace that mentality than to think ‘i was once in love with you – now i can never have you in my life in any other way’ – to put a lable on someone (the ‘ex’!!!) and brand them with that forever. My healthy relationship ex and i were more like housemates by the end of our relationship – just friends who lived together. We are still friends now and i wouldn’t have it any other way. And yes he would be invited to my wedding – along with his wife/girlfriend at the time. 🙂
Allison and Minky,
You make good points, and I also have a friend who is still friends with her ex and his wife. She and her husband get together with them on occasion. And this works for them.
However, I do think it is rare. You both talk about YOUR feelings and YOUR friendship with your exes, and how it would be a waste to let that go. All well and good, but there are other parties to consider here. ALL parties involved need to be 100% comfortable with the ongoing friendship, and just because you may not see a problem with it, and have no more romantic feelings, doesn’t mean a new boyfriend is bad if he does have a problem with it.
I’m not saying it could never happen, but I would be hard-pressed to believe that all 4 people in the situation are 100% OK with it. And furthermore, if they say they are, are they being 100% honest?
I think it depends on the individuals involved, people’s mentalities etc. You have to do what works for you and as long as you have trust, honesty and respect there should be no reason for anyone to feel awkward, and if they do then there shouldn’t be any reason for them not to say so.
Everyone is different at the end of the day and what works for me might not work for other people – everyone has different boundaries. I am with someone with the same beliefs as me re friends of the opposite sex, so it works!
I guess I thought we were talking about staying friends with exes, not just being friends with someone of the opposite sex. To me, there is a big difference.
Like I said, I think it’s rare, but I have seen it myself, so I can respect that it does work for some people.
Minky,
Then I would think that the individual was very insecure; there lies another problem. We all have a past and if my partner in unable to accept my friends then I would have to question the relationship.
I am the flip side of this, I’m the girl with all the male friends. None are exes. I am like the mother they can actually talk to, I listen to the stuff they wouldn’t dream of telling their guy friends. I have however learned that you should be careful what you say to someone when they are upset… Often they will get over it and end up back with the girl, but not until after they’ve told the girl everything you said. Then you quickly end up being “the girl with designs”.
The only ‘girlfriends’ who have ever not liked me though are the ones who didn’t last long!
heather
maybe they did not last long cos they kicked up a fuss and it was the compliant ones who “lasted”?
i think it’s very workable and even desirable when you’re young to have lots of friends of both sexes and everyone hangs out in a group, but i feel that it thins out as you get older.
im interested to know what happens when everyone pairs off permanently (or semipermanently) and start a family. my outlook is somewhat skewed by the fact that my friends are very long term and i like to see them as permanent, i probably wouldn’t bother starting any friendship that wouldn’t survive marriage and babies which kinda rules out males friends for me.
Grace – i have male friends and my boyfriend (who is a really decent guy) has female friends. It is not a problem because we trust each other. Our friends don’t interfere in the relationship and are very supportive of us as a couple. Many are mutual friends, but not all. I think the mark of a good friend is one that does not interfere and only gets involved when asked – respecting boundaries!
I think if both parties have good self esteem and there is mutual trust, it doesn’t matter how many opposite sex friends you both have. It all comes down to boundaries and respect again – if you act decently and, by your actions, each give the other person no reason to worry then there should be no reason not to have as many friends as you want – of both gender.
Minky
Yes, I’ve seen it and I’ve done it. But in my mid-40s I simply don’t have any male friends anymore. It thins out considerably on marriage/kids. It’s a combination of it not seeming quite appropriate, even if nothing is going on, and marrieds (husband and wife) simply having less time.
It may be different for younger people but no friends my age have male friends, other than those who are also friends of their husbands. I don’t think any of their husbands have female friends. Could just be my circle. Also, I tend to see my friends one-to-one for heart-to-hearts. I would feel odd doing that with someone’s husband. It would work more easily if it was all big groups down the pub, so it has a lot with how you like to socialise.
Also, I have two brothers that I’m very close to so I don’t feel any lack. If everyone I knew was female I might seek out male friends but, as it is, I didn’t even notice they’d all gone until I was reading posts here!
As for exes, while it may be good to remain friends, I think it’s exceptional and even if all one’s boyfriends were great it would be strange to keep them all as friends, in my opinion – I know I would be wary of a man with half-a-dozen exes in tow . Then again if it was just one, I might be thinking “what’s so special about THAT ONE?” It wouldn’t be a red flag as such, but I can’t say it’s exactly the same as his male friends.
Anyway, that’s just my experience.
I can understand what you mean better Grace. I think it would be weird to hang out with some one’s husband unless they’d already been a long distinguished friend. For instance, my friend Joe and I have been friends for about 12 years. We never dated, he’s like a brother to me. I LOVE his wife and we get on great. I hang out with them together and separately. They live about an 8 hour flight from here.
A few years back (about a year after they married) he came home for his grandfather’s funeral and missing home started to think that maybe marriage wasn’t a good idea, that maybe he’d rushed into it. He was getting bored and wanted to move home and though he loved his wife and thought she was great… she just wasn’t ‘doing it for him anymore.’ I asked if she had changed since they met and he said no. Then I asked: Well WHY is it HER problem that you’re getting bored? It sounds like YOUR problem and that you should make some moves to fix it. I told him that relationships take two and he can’t expect her to keep him entertained all the time. He honestly hadn’t even thought about making changes on his own. He thought: problem, okay evacuate!
He went home with a new perspective and I later got a message from his wife actually thanking me. It’s been about two years since then and they’ve had a baby since and are so happy now!!! I’m the godmother 🙂
Once again agree completely with Grace here… once you can figure out the energy a man/woman is giving off with these opposite sex friendships it becomes very clear in which cases it’s a huge red flag and in which cases it’s completely platonic. I think of many healthy married relationships and in no case is the man having several if any frequent phone calls with other women, hang outs, and “need to help out” situations. I think healthy secure relationship minded males know that this is instinctively inappropriate. Unhealthy, insecure men play it off like we women have the insecurity. No..its altogether inappropriate and I would definitely opt out with any man trying to play this game now. I’m onto it. Grace.. the wise one 😉
I’m in agreement with Grace and CC here. When I was much younger it was ok to have close opposite sex friends. As I’ve gotten older it doesn’t seem appropriate for either party. I have long term male friends whom I run into now and then. But they are married or in relationships, and I’d like to be in one myself. So I don’t phone up or run around with these guys. Some guys want to be more than my friend and I don’t, so it makes it impossible for us to really just be friends, he’s always vying for more. I don’t want a boyfriend of mine texting with, phoning, receiving calls or texts from, going to lunch or dinner with, going for hikes with, going to events with, other women. The fact that I don’t tolerate men in my life who behave that way with other women is because I am SECURE with myself. If I were INSECURE, I might tolerate that. I can’t think of any men who have a happy wife, and who behave that way. Well not any past 30. I’ve seen couples behave that way at a young age and think it was going to work out, only to later find that one of them (usually the woman) didn’t like some behavior with one of the female “friends” and then they broke up/divorced. Oh well, live and learn.
Grace,
Maybe it’s a generation thing because I have many male friends (I’m 29) who I can’t imagine not being friends with. Some have married and had babies and I love their wives and famillies. I never exclude the girls though and I think that’s a big help. I also end up hanging out with many of the girls on my own, I have even been known to keep a few of the exes that didn’t work out for whatever reason. Sometimes though I think a guy NEEDS to be told when he’s being an assclown. I am that girl for them 🙂
There have been many conversations where it started out with the guy complaining about the girl and I’ve said: WHOA! Look at this way…
Heather,
Great advice you gave to the married friend!
I have an equal split of male/female friends-I’m 47-but I live in a VERY single city. I would not give up my male friends because someone felt uncomfortable, this would indicate control and insecurity issues. Don’t need it! I’m keeping all of my male friends!
Thanks Allison! At the end of the day I was just happy that everyone was happy. I also appreciated the fact that he was able to talk it through instead of behaving rashly and doing something damaging to their relationship.
You mention your “single city” and I often wonder how much a person’s location matters in love. For instance, I’m from Nova Scotia, Canada. So it’s a small place where the chances of bumping into an ex is pretty much guaranteed. So staying friends almost makes sense to avoid the awkwardness of running into each other. Also with the age of technology it’s so much harder to get someone out of your life. The last guy I dated I have removed from my life except that I still see him all over our mutual friends facebook pages.
Technology makes it easier to date but also harder to breakup!
Hi Grace,
I just wanted to say I liked your comment to Heather: “maybe they did not last long cos they kicked up a fuss and it was the compliant ones who “lasted”?” I think you nailed it in one.
Maria
I had an ex with a nacissistic harem (love that term); his entire harem was needy single women who leant on him for advice and support, plus lifts and odd jobs, it was sickening. I found a phone bill and thrust it under his nose to ask why he was ringing one of them 3 times a day ! he continually justified it and insisted it was all platonic and that I was jealous and unreasonable. It didnt matter if it was platonic they may as well have made it physical for the way it made me feel. I ended up giving him a college prospectus with an NVQ councelling course circled in red and told him to get qualified and to charge them for his services. Needless to say I left and 3 years later he’s still with them.
I wasted too much time on that bunch, 3 years in total. My next one also had a harem but a non-platonic one. Fortunately I’m free of all this BS and am living happy and single and free of all the nonsense, its a better place to be.
Thank you forever Nat for your wise self and for so generously sharing it with us all. By the way I loved that photo of your wee girly in her tight striped pyjamas, so cute.
at Kim:
Same here, I’d rather be single than in that drama.
I happen to have a lot of gay male friends, we’re like girlfriends, and sometimes a guy I’m dating gets jealous, but really, there is no way I’ll cheat on them with a gay guy. Now, if the guy I’m seeing is homophobic, then I’d rather not be with him anyways. I have seen how this could be a problem and tried to minimize my time with the gay friends, it was also a bubble I had built to be safe, so I can understand why a guy would do that too.
However, the ex with the harem fancied himself “a nice guy”, when I know he kept friends with exes to have that nookie all the damn time, whatever. I’m not over him, but I’ve stayed away for 5 months. I know he kept firnds with exes and seriously I don’t do that, we broke up for a reason!
Hey Heather,
I’m in NYC. Strangely, a lot of single people.
Do you hang out with the guy, or are you simply civil?
You can hide his posts on FB, or simply block him, then you won’t see his activity again.
I can identify with some of this article. In my last relationship im was completely confused as to why my partner could not understand why id be upset on a number of things. 1/ sitting with a group of sleazy men at work all perve at women and give them a score out of ten even making comments about me and he just sat there not saying anything “appararently”. 2/his best friend who he new had tried to date me in past being a bit to touchy feely, again he said nothing 3/ same best friend saying things to him to undermine me even calling me strange and again he didn’t say anything…….the list goes on. What’s more confusing is that a perfect stranger, an old man at fruit shop giving me some extra fruit could cause my x to stomp off in a jealous fume, in fact he was constantly jealous of pretty much everything and anyone but when something real actually happening like his friend being sleazy didn’t register an emotion. Yet another confusing and inconsistent behaviour from my x that gladly I don’t have to put up with anymore 🙂
Tee hee. Sorry to laugh. The x liked to tell me how many women wanted him at any one time – work colleagues mainly. He didn’t remember nice, interesting facts, only facts about men I’d been involved with. Involved meaning a date or two with not even a peck. Urgh.
I think it all depends. I have a good share of male friends along with female friends. Of those male friends I have slept with one, way in the past. If he was still interested in me, I would not be friends with him as I think it’s cruel and selfish to lead any one on.
I started my relationship w/ the AC wanting to be open about our opposite sex friends so nothing would be misconstrued on both our parts. I told him that it was important to me for him to meet my male friends so he knew the relationships we’re not sexual and for him to be comfortable with them. Plus I was so excited about him, couldn’t wait for my friends to meet the love of my life. He on the other hand “acted” like he was just friends with his opposite sex friends. He told me he did have one that he had slept with 10 yrs ago and again 1 yr before we went out and that SHE was still interested in HIM. I told him I thought that was not too nice to her – that she was probably hoping.
Here ladies I think is the difference between an ASSCLOWN and a GENTLEMAN. He offered to tell her about us and I told him that would make me more comfortable (RESPECT). Guess what he never told her! Guess what – he even lied about his female friends – there was only one he slept with (the one mentioned above). Turns out he pretty much slept with them all – narcissitic harem.
I started out that relationship very secure within myself, never wanting either of us to give up our opposite sex friends. I ended the relationship in pure insecurity from all the mind games. The last “female” friend in the string of three years (by the way, can’t talk to them in front of me, never introduced me to them, and would never meet my friends as I wanted him to) was engaged but calling him all the time – I even asked him why she always called my guy – his excuse was “he was the only friend she had” – she has a sister and 173 friends on FB – what a joke. Guess what – two weeks after I ended it for the upteenth time, she was in his his bed. Yep – broke her engagement, moved back from CA and was in bed with my AC – AND THEY WERE JUST FRIENDS! Ok whatever. By the way that lasted 3 1/2 months and she dumped him.
If you have nothing to hide, you don’t hide it. If you are respectful of the opposite sex (friends and lovers) you introduce eachother. PERIOD, end of story. And occassionally I think you meet someone who has been burned (may have some insecurities) and you respect that and SHOW THEM with repectable behavior that you won’t burn them in the same way – that way they learn to trust you. I think we forget – AND THAT is ME – that trust has to be EARNED not dished out to someone you have just met and expecting them to be like you.
I have to say that I am pretty angry at myself for starting a relationship with someone with absolute trust that he would respect me the way I planned to respect him – feeling very secure with myself and walking away 3 years later so damn insecure because I tolerated his BS. My mistake -but learning. Just shy of 6 months broken up.
By the way he always had to tell me about all the women that wanted him – all his exs wanted him back, the neighbor who walked her dog, the old neighbor girls, all the girls he slept with in the past. I can’t believe I tolerated this crap!!
I have also just come through an experience with a man who has a narcissistic harem on Facebook. The friendship lasted two years and during the entire time, he tried every way he knew how to convince me to become a part of his harem. In the end, I opted out. There was never any real mutuality of friendship. It was always about edifying him. He has a core group of women that operate on a hierarchy, the one at the top being the one who most mirrors and echoes him. It was a great way to learn about the pitfalls of narcissism. Other than that, it was a huge waste of my time. Life is short. Friendships should be about mutual exchange, respect, integrity, and authenticity. Harems like this are all about immature behavior and ego boosting. Interestingly enough, there seems to be a limitless supply of women who make themselves available for his games just so they can get a little “hit” of attention from him when he so chooses to cast his gaze upon them. And I definitely agree that many of the women who choose to remain in the harem suffer from the grandiose delusion that they, too, in the end will one day rise to the top of the heap. Heap, ha ha, that’s what it is alright. A heap of garbage mentality.
There, I feel all better now. 😉
WOW, this is a crazy situation, Its good that she opted out.
my blog – http://www.ModernOxegen.Blogspot.Com
My goodness, this is timely. I am recently split from an ex whose family – mum, dad, sis – ran his life for him. He was 41 when we met … He relied constantly on their approval; every now and then he’d grow a spine and it would be just he and I, but mostly his priorities were: 1) himself 2) mum 3) dad 4) sis and finally 5) me. Dad looked after his money for him; mum provided home cooked meals at their place every weekend (he’d go and eat, and then bring home doggy bags); sis did his laundry for him.
Sis was a particular problem – she refused to speak to me on the five or so occasions we met during the two years this guy and I were going out (on and off, so actually about a year). She is single and had their retirement together all planned. EUUUUWW. My one major triumph was to get him to do his own laundry, but that took a LONG TIME.
I am also single now, but it is SUCH a relief to be free from this emotionally incestuous situation. You’re right – it’s just like shovelling s*** uphill; you end up always fighting with them.
P.
I first met ‘Jolene’ at a party my ex gave when he first moved into town. He introduced her as a friend. She was all over him, body language wise, leaning toward him, touching him, telling him she got him a gift she needs to bring by, etc. She hung out until she and I were the last ones at his house.
Later I asked if they’d ever slept together. Yes, he said immediately. So she’s an ex, okay, I get it. It was at the beginning of our relationship. I’m friends with a couple of my exes. But she was coming onto you, I said. Really, he said, I didn’t notice.
The next month when I was helping him move in I pulled open a kitchen drawer (he had given me the task of putting kitchen stuff in kitchen drawers and cupboards) to find a cheque for thousands of dollars made out to her. I was upset by this, and asked what kind of friend do you give a five-figure cheque to? Please help me understand the nature of your relationship, I said. He accused me of not understanding his ‘personal philanthropy’ to his friends, that she was in a very tight spot and later met her and gave her the cheque without telling me; I asked and found out later. When I said I was surprised he hadn’t mentioned he had met her he got very icy.
Months later she called him up, suicidal (sort of), asking for his help finding a nice private recovery retreat. When I sounded less than pleased when he called me at 8 am to ask for emergency psychologist references for her, and assumed in conversation that she was asking to stay at his place, he almost dumped me, or threatened to, saying no one comes between him and his friends. He accused me again of blinding jealousy with regard to her. I asked why he doesn’t just include me then in his meetings with her to see if she is okay, and he said he didn’t think that with my behaviour that it was a good idea.
There was another friend who would call him after 11 pm. I didn’t even bring her up, but it would bother me to see him check the caller, and put the phone away quickly. Then I’d find myself asking who it was. It was her.
I hadn’t heard of the narcissistic harem thing at this point. But it did certainly seem that his friends were often women who would tell him their dating problems, their sexual histories, etc and he would relate their stories back to me, as if, I guess, to show me it was all friendly and transparent.
Both these women broke up with their boyfriends in the course of the time my ex and I were together. Both times he took his sweet time mentioning that they were now single.
He had stories of other suicidal, ‘crazy,’ depressed, maltreated women in his life: his secretaries, his exes, some other friends from his home town he was still in touch with. The ones he was ‘friends’ with were still coming to him with their man woes and he was the one who would take them to dinner as friends; or they were now married but still calling him up to say how great he was (ones with significant financial ties to him); the ones who were now angry at him were ‘unstable’ and ‘arrogant.’
I should say that during this whole relationship I was participating in a women’s group, a supervised support group, whom I would sometimes talk to about this relationship. He knew that I spoke to them, and didn’t like it, and though they never said “leave him,” it was only through conferring with them and a couple of closer friends that I heard more than once, “He shouldn’t be speaking to you that way.” In my life I have not been totally clear on what counts as disrespectful speech (having only seen what flies as okay in my family), and it was helpful, eye-opening, and painful to learn that what seemed like justified angry tones from him were condescending, disrespectful attempts to intimidate and control.
So it is a fine line, letting other people into your relationship. I felt I couldn’t begrudge him his women friends that he could ‘talk to’ when I was going to therapy and telling six people about us.
In the end, his relationships with these women just never felt right. They all had a similar flavor of desperation and I hated feeling myself to be one of them. I thought he was kind of cruel to Jolene, in his way, nonetheless. When I would read Nat’s posts about why not to stay friends with an exAC, I would think, yeah, I don’t want to be treated like Jolene. He meets with her when she shows desperation, gives her money, but he also calls her up to tell her we’re off to a wonderful trip to a resort, does she have any recommendations for restaurants? I always thought it seemed like he knew she was on the hook and liked to rub it in her face every now and then.
Alicia Keys has been there :):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmZfi46AuJA
Why, that sounds alot like Holly Madison. Holly bided her time to get to the top of Hugh Hefner’s narcissistic harem. She finally made it but in the end he dumped her for a younger girl and is marrying her.
Been there, done that. Threw away the t-shirt. The AC had a harem, which he hid at first. The gaggle of women who wanted to be number one but had been auditioned and demoted. Many were literally turning themselves inside out, trying to prove he should pick them. One was going so far as to learn a new language and move to another country, all to be with a man who was being very clear that they were not in a relationship (except, as we all know, doing it in a vague, AC kinda way that led her on just enough….you know the drill).
What I discovered is – yes it is about the ego stroke, but mostly it was about control. The only people he allowed to get close were those he could control. I don’t just mean other people’s actions – he felt he should be able to tell those in his inner circle what to think and feel. A classic example – he is 40 and still lives at home. One day, he went into his room and found that his mother had left some clean folded towels on his bed. He screamed at her to come, said nothing but just looked at the towels in a disapproving manner. She, terrified, scoped them up and backed out of the room, bowing and apologizing. He thinks this is the funniest story he tells – I think it shows how psychotic he is.
He expects the same from the harem and sadly, there are at least 6 women – all smart, educated, well-employed and attractive – who behave the same way as his mother. They drop everything when he calls, never complain when he is over an hour late or just doesn’t show up at all. None seem to notice that not once does he ask about them or express any interest in what they do. They exist to serve him.
Given how hard I tried to get close to him, I know I should never stand in judgement of these women. All I can say is that I am glad I woke up and got out. Frankly, what finally did it for me was not wanting to become one of them, and finally accepting the reality that a slot in the harem was the best I was being offered.
Any guy with a harem – RUN!!!
@Debra;-i think the man you are describing here is a narcissist. I’ve just read some more about the close link between assclown behavour and narcissists – there’s load of info on web, just type in narccissist. I couldn’t believe when i read about narcissists how the behaviour and the characteristics of an N (narcissist) exactly fitted my ex-assclown.
I’m kind of in shock today cos i didn’t realise what a dangerous man I got myself involved with. Luckily, i got out just in time to have kept my sanity and i’m glad to say i’m doing fine. Thanks to you, Nat.
Now, ladies, the reason why the assclowns are sooo persistent in wanting to stay friends with you is because they need you as a “narcissistic supply” according to the info I have learned. And this “narcissistic supply” theory is documented by psychiatrists so it’s not a joke and it’s to be taken seriously.
Basically, they have you in their lives, be it as a gf or female friend, as a source of narcissistic supply. You are a narcissistic supply to them as long as you don’t complain about their shoddy treatment of you and as long as you give them your undying attention and adulation and “jump to their beat” as the ladies here above do, Debora, and meet THEIR NEEDS. This is why the acs don’t show interest in your life – its a one way street – its all about them, not you.
You stop giving them their narcissistic supply when you begin to show dissatisfaction about their behaviour and once you start to protest against their shoddy treatment of you. Because when you being to complain, and this is how they see it, you no longer give them the required attention and adulation they seek. So, what do you think happens next? He begins to DISREGARD and DEVALUE you.
Now an example of this would be when you complain to him, he gives you the silent treatment and disappears for how ever long he feels like it. Sound familar?
And if is the case that you have end it, well done because you haven’t been completely devalued or disregarded by him yet but you will have had a few episodes of feeling like you have been.
When YOU end it, he will not understand that he treated you badly, he CANNOT understand because he sees himelf as perfect. So, he will persist in wanting to keep you as a friend and will persist in contacting you because he needs you still as his narcissistic supply because you still have something left to give him because you’re not completely depleted yet. He needs to have several women “ON TAP” to give him his supply.
It does not mean that he cares about you or wants you back because he’s realised what an assclown he’s been. So this is how he ropes you back into a relationship with him – you protest, he comes on all hot and you think he understands he wasn’t treating you properly and suddenly he’s being sooo attentive! You give him the benefit of the doubt, and you will never guess, once he thinks he has you back on board, he goes compltely cold on you and sets “the reset button”.
For me, now i have to leave a hobby i really enjoy because of my ex. He does not understand he treated me badly, he still thinks he can pick up where he left off… (not going to happen). Because i’m in this hobby with him which just resumed, I have to have some contact with him (as i’m one of the organisers) but he sees this as a door open for him to have me as a supply to him. He will not give up – he is miffed i dont want to be “friends with him”
i give up. my only option is to compltely shut off the supply to him. First step is opt out of the hobby, next step is change my mobile number and defriend him on facebook. i have to do this carefully, i cannot let him think i’m leaving because of him. I have to make up a white lie – i’ll hear from him – saying he’ll miss me at ths group, bla bla, i’ll send one reply, “thanks, ill be back in the autumn, i’m doing this art course i’ve been waiting to get on”
and then I can change my mobile number. From what ive learnt about Ns, the ONLY WAY is to BLOCK ALL forms of contact, not responding isn’t enough cos they wont give up.
This all sounds psycho but it’s true so be warned.
Let’s not forget that we need to put more of the focus on us, and not them. Let’s make us the priority!!!! 🙂
So true Audrey! Mine completely did not understand and was dumbfounded that I just stopped responding and then defriended on FB. When I had a “run in” with him 5 mos later he was with a group of his friends and played like he had absolutely no idea why I would do such a thing and for the cherry on top played the whole “I have no idea why you would think I liked you” act right there in front of his friends. This after 3 yrs of “friendship” that included making out.. blah blah. His ego could not allow him any introspection whatsoever. It completed decimated me at the time but now I’ve learned. We have all come to this site by knowing that something in our guts was wrong… and we learn. Ladies.. if your gut tells you something is up with particular or several female friendships, listen and LEARN!
@CC i’m go glad for baggage reclaim – if i hadn’t found it, i probably would have continued with the madness for longer. I really felt isolated when he was ignoring me and it was horrible. Now that I know, as long as being an assclown he’s an out and out N, it’s helping me to understand even more why he acted the way he did. To be honest, i’m feeling a bit freaked out over this new revelation to me but i’ll be fine. it’s just a bit of a shock to me i guess.
it’s hard to believe Ns have absolutely no empathy and cannot understand even common decency. And i now understand why i felt so devalued when I was with him. There was about six weeks when it was good between us but i’ve learnd that this is how women end up with Ns for long time – they see this good side to them and work hard to try and “retrieve” it out of them. I was only in the so called “relationship” with him for approx. four months.
And one of the big difficulties with being with one of these guys is that there is no closure – because they persist in contacting. that is why the only way is to completely block them. For me, just ignoring him isn’t really working for me anyway because of the hobby we share – but i’m giving that hobby up now and will be changing my mobile no. today.
I feel sad that i have to take this step but I have to for the good of my wellbeing and my happiness.
@ Audrey. Wow! Thanks. I read what you wrote and was saying ‘yep, uh-huh, that’s him etc.’ Natalie can take a day off and have you fill in!! Thanks everyone.
Do you think we gals are doing it too? When we’re unhappy and having a conflict with our bf and after trying to resolve it, but it doesn’t go well, and we then go to our best friends to talk? Is this also running squawking to our friends and family ?
I don’t thing what you are describing is the same thing.
Firstly, you mention that you try to resolve it with him first, THEN you talk to your friends. I think is just getting some perspective on a difficult situation, and it’s good to have friends to talk to about that kind of stuff.
Secondly, you said you went to them to talk. That does not sound like them interfering, it sounds like you asking for advice.
I do think that when we have issues in our relationship, but leave the significant other out of the discussion altogether, then that is a huge problem.
I like that final paragraph where Natalie states that the interfering people are there because they WANT them there. It’s not about these other people. It’s about their dependence on them.
These lack of boundaries can take many forms and affect the relationship in many ways. My ex-AC lived on his own, but his parents were still VERY involved in his life. His mother did a lot for him- laundry (he had his own washer and dryer), making dental appointments, buying him groceries, cleaning, and much more I won’t go into. His dad bailed him out financially, and on one occasion, tried to get info from me as to whether or not he had made a large purchase. I pretended to his dad that I didn’t know.
They are basically still trying to raise their son, even though he is grown up. And he lets them.
I mean, I think it’s great that families are there for each other, and support each other, but to be so involved on such a micro level, doing things for their son that he is capable of doing for himself, that’s another story.
My exes female friend hated me and convinced all his other female friends to hate me too. They were like puppy dogs following around their momm dog…We were very happy and had a great relationship when we were together for our 6 months. They all have been friends for over 20 years. I couldn’t compete with that nor did I want to. I got angry when he didn’t stick up for me and let her and her friends talk about me. I told him to grow a pair of balls and to figure out what he wanted and that I was not going to bow down to anyone to like me. He thought I should bend over backwards for her acceptance…How wrong the silly man is. He is too old to be playing these kid games and wonders why every single relationship he has is a failure. They all sit around and trash his exes right in front of me. What made me any different. Nothing. He went out with his friends one day and decided after he was done with them, he would play with me. Wrong. I decided the NC would be appropriate in this case. That is exactly what I have done. Although he did text me to be friends a week later…NOT happening. I am glad to be rid of the drama. I refuse to change myself for anyone. I like me, thats all that matters!
what a retard.
oh, sorry..insecure retard.
I agree…
Perfect timing and this one makes sense as well
my ex always had his family around and although didn’t have many friends the ones he had were less sensible than him so it was perfect fir his ego as he was always right and in control with them.
they always mattered more and he always sided them to me as I hasn’t done much for him to support and stand up for mr than they had they were his family always right always thought the sun shined from his as*
now I know after I’veovrd he’s created his little harem of his ex gf who by the way are all married and quote are helping him with the divorce awwwww
more like he talks crap about me and how I’m the witch from he’ll and I think they don’t even know me
those women are just there to stroke his ego and say what he wants to listen to cause I won’t give him that and they are desperate themselves ot wanna shag him themselves
says a lot about him and his harem!
Do you think there are shades of this behavior — like some people could be worse than others? And if so, is it still NEVER acceptable?
I’m confused if this is the situation with the guy I’m dating. If it is, I know it’s not worth sticking around.
We’ve been dating for a few months. He doesn’t do the push-pull thing. We are slowly getting closer and more open about things the more time we are together. It feels pretty normal, but it’s been slow going. He is very good about introducing me to friends, and whenever I meet them, they always say they’ve heard about me and they’re glad to meet me. I’ve briefly met his family.
He has a TON of female friends — none new since we’ve been dating, it’s just a lot of friends he’s known forever. I don’t get the impression they are running his life or that he is taking his cues from them. He just clearly likes the attention. I don’t feel threatened by them — except one: His neighbor. They share his garage since she doesn’t have one, they purchased a large household item together to share, occassionally have meals together at each others’ houses and hang out. Basically, they’re kinda playing house together without being sexual. He’s never hid this friendship from me, and I’ve always just pretended like I’m totally OK with it and tried to befriend her.
I would have probably chalked this situation up to me just being paranoid, but I found out recently that the longest relationship he ever had was a 1.5 year on-again-off-again relationship that was mostly “off” and that he described as “unhealthy”. He’s in his 30s. Now I’m rethinking everything; that he’s got the narcissistic harem thing going on and that maybe he’s unconsciously trying to pit me against the neighbor girl in the hopes that it’ll give him reason to dump me, perpetuating his single-ness. I feel like I’m being set up to fail.
Hi KG, Well to get to the point, I think you should dump your man. There said that, now I’ll elaborate. You asked if there are shades of EU. Probably. But at the point where it’s causing problems for your relationship it doesn’t really matter how bad it is. For instance, so he only has one woman he’s oddly enmeshed with, and not 20 women. Well one is enough. First, I’d encourage you to look further up this thread at some of my previous comments and read them. Think what if you and your man decide to move in together… or get married? Where are you going to park your car? Outside? So that SHE can park her car in your garage, in your house? Then there’s the major appliance. Let’s just say it’s a washing machine. He’s shared payment and use of it with HER. So you need to wash your clothes one night. But you can’t because SHE decides SHE needs to come over and commandeer the use of the washer. Or … you decide to surprise your man with a romantic evening alone, just the two of you…. You’re just finishing the romantic dinner you’ve carefully crafted for him, you’re cuddling together, things are getting romantic… and SHE shows up and needs to get in the garage, or needs to use your washing machine. I think if your man wanted to have a real relationship with a woman like yourself, he wouldn’t have gotten himself so heavily enmeshed with some other woman. And you know it doesn’t even matter whether she is single or married, whether she is young or 70 years old, none of that matters, what matters is that he has enmeshed himself with her to a point that you are unable to come into his life and take your rightful place. Sure, you could stay with him and insist that he make his neighbor remove herself from his garage and return the key. That he either buy out her share of the washing machine, or else just cut his losses and give it to her. But even if you manage to get rid of her. The issues that caused him to insulate himself with her, AGAINST YOU, are still there. He will eventually either go back to his odd relationship with her, or he will find someone or something else to fill that role of the insulator, the shield, that keeps him from being able to devote himself to you (or any woman for a REAL relationship) And another thing. Even if you do go through all the tiresome work of ridding him of his strange enmeshment, you still don’t win. He will view himself as a ‘victim’ of your desire to control him (because you want him to behave normally), and so will his neighbor and anyone else who’s ear he’s able to get ahold of. You will be labeled ‘controlling’, ‘jealous’, ‘insecure’, ‘mean’. You’ll be the ‘Bad Guy’. It’s a no-win for you. I advise you to just walk away. You can hold out for a man who hasn’t got his tentacles enmeshed into other people’s lives, or allowed, invited others to put their tentacles into his. Good luck!
When I was younger (20s/30s) I foolishly wanted to stay friends with my ex’s. I was insecure and a people pleaser, so staying in contact with old boyfriends was a to feel love and validated. Now I know that only in rare circumstances should one stay friends, or is it even possible. That said, I recently had a date with a man in his 50s who proudly boast that he stays friends with his ex’s. Really, keeping old girlfriends around is a way to boost the ego and feel popular, I believe. I also believe it keeps you from fully participating in a new relationoship.
Thanks for posting this Nat.
I think people should be made aware of boundaries and what to expect in a healthy relationship.
I was dumbstruck when one ex made it a point to relay all the vile and hurtful remarks his best friend said about me on a weekly basis. These remarks came from someone who had never met me. I can only assume that the AC chose to discuss his relationship with me with some-one whose opinion he valued more than mine. Really, when your alleged partner repeats back to you verbatim all the hurtful things that another person has said about you in a relationship, you have to assume that a) the partner has an agenda and/or b) that he/she has bought-in to whatever was being said at the time and on some level agrees with the comments that he/she is repeating back to you. Otherwise, why make inflammatory comments and deliver them with a nasty and condescending tone in your voice to someone you supposedly love and respect? At the time, I didn’t see the big picture and realise it’s one thing to hear someone express an opinion and another to repeat it verbatim to someone else who you know is going to get upset. I made excuses for him. I reasoned that the words/comments didn’t come from him and he was just being open about the way she felt about me? WTF. Now in hindsight, I have to admit the barrage of names from the third party destroyed whatever trust I had in the AC. I assumed that I he would want to talk to me about whatever was bothering him before seeking the advice of an unqualified relationship counsellor (the friend). I now believe this is 80% of the reason why the relationship disintegrated and can now see one of the many ways in which I was set up to fail from the beginning. He made assumptions, didn’t “check out” his assumptions and ran off to seek advice from other people who didn’t know me, had never met me, but somehow felt they could speak on my behalf. The relationship break-down became his self-fulfilling prophecy. I’m sure the more he pointed out my supposed flaws to his friend, the more she reflected back to him that there was something wrong with me, and he continued to look for evidence of this in the relationship. When he left, he blamed me 100% for the break-up and I accepted 100% of the blame because I HAD low self esteem.
Some of my friends and family have not approved of or appreciated my relationship choices and have been quite vocal about it, and some who knew better at the time remained tight lipped. My friends know that I am a grown woman, I have my own mind and I am accountable for my life choices. I know that my friends are well meaning, will almost always side with me and will provide information based on their own personal experiences and core values. They know that I am open to their opinions, however they also know that I have every right to take some of their opinions with a grain of salt and not act on their recommended actions.
When one of my exes felt it was his right to express his opinion about my two best friends guess what I didn’t do. I didn’t immediately run off and tell them what he said because a) I respected both of them and knew this would create unnecessary drama and b) because I’m assuming that what was said to me, was said in confidence. Instead, I defended them and shot down his erroneous beliefs on the spot and left it at that.
*Sigh* It’s taken a long time to detangle, detach and get true learnings.
Where are all the upright men… they do seem married don’t they! Well maybe that can be my new positive affirmation…
“I am surrounded by upright men and women. People who choose to do the right thing, just because it is the right thing.”
Sadly, I think that many of my earlier beliefs came from movies especially old classics like ‘When Harry Met Sally’ (which is saw again last week, the first time in ten or twenty years!) Harry says “Men and women can never be friends cos the sex part always gets in the way.”
I do have some good male friends however I see them these days through the filter of their wives. We all see each other and if I stay over – I go to bed at the same time as the wife (ie not hanging out alone with the hubby.” Some things are just not right…
… if we put ourselves into situations within close male/female relationships, mix in some wine and a late night… not good to tempt fate (even if you have the most sincere intentions) – they do not call this ‘under the influence’ of alcohol for no reason… our moral boundaries may begin to blur.
Be wise!
“I am surrounded by upright men and women. People who choose to do the right thing, just because it is the right thing.”
I like this but I don’t think EU men and women necessarily know what the right thing is. I’ve been looking at my own emotional unavailability and the issue of setting boundaries, and at times I don’t know my arse from my elbow.
For example, I hate babysitting friends’ kids but do it regularly. I mean what’s to like? Sitting in someone else’s house on your own, the children in bed – another reminder that you haven’t any of your own – being kept out late and feeling tired the following day at work. I want to say, ‘I’ll babysit in an emergency but don’t ask me just so you can avoid paying someone’. But the thought of saying that makes me feel selfish, so I go ahead and agree.
In terms of setting boundaries, is it ok to refuse to do something just because you don’t want to? Do you come right out and say ‘I don’t want to’ or do you manufacture some excuse? And does that compromise your friendships and mean you’re a crap friend? This probably sounds retarded to most of you but I genuinely don’t know what’s the right thing to do. In general, I find it easier to keep people at arm’s length because letting them in presents me with too many headaches. Until I find a way to overcome this, I feel I’ll continue to attract EU men.
AliceB, you’re not a teenager so playing babysitter all the time is not really necessary. You are not under obligation to babysit and you have the right to say NO. Of course by not saying no, you’re creating the expectation that you’ll always say yes. I have a friend who was doing the exact same thing as you. It started as a favour and then she had the child 5 days a week, often overnight. Yes, it’s a bit more extreme but the fact is, that ‘friend’ was taking advantage of free childcare as she had no respect for my friends life and it suited her purpose. Eventually with a talking to from me and her then boyfriend, she said NO. The ‘friend’ was annoyed. My friend stuck to her guns. Eventually the friend apologised and she has him very occasionally, in an emergency.
As a parent, I know a lot of parents and I don’t know
any
that expect a free babysitter on tap via their single friends.
Agree to babysit once in a blue moon and for the rest of the time decline. You’re not being selfish – you’ve already babysat loads for them. What would they do if you weren’t around? Yep, that’s right, find someone else. You are not the only solution to their problems. Let them sort their own lives out.
“Look guys, I appreciate that maybe you’re not keen on paying babysitter fees, but can you make alternative arrangements for a babysitter? I don’t mind doing it occasionally if you’re stuck, but really, it’s only if you’re stuck”
OR
“Just to give you a heads up, after the next couple of weeks, I won’t be around to babysit so please start making alternative arrangements now.” If they ask why, (which they shouldn’t if they have any shame), just say you’ve got a lot on and while you don’t mind doing it in an absolute emergency, they shouldn’t rely on you to babysit.
OR
Wait till they ask and then just say ‘NO’. No big deal. You have other plans. And keep saying NO.
If you only want to babysit in an emergency, for every five times or even ten that you’re asked to babysit, you should only be saying yes once.
They haven’t been paying babysitter fees so they can afford to spend some now or ask another friend….
Alice
I know how you feel. Add this powerful word to your vocabulary — “no”. It goes like this
“will you babysit for me tonight?”
“is it an emergency?”
“we’re going out”
” then no, i have to get up for work the next day”. Then say NOTHING. Let them fill the uncomfortable silence. If you start talking you’ll probably end up saying yes.
If they drop you, they’re not really your friends. They’re just people who are using your free babysitting services. I suppose you can’t blame them, that’s a good deal. For them.
So funny, one of the hardest things is learning HOW to actually say no. I find that the less explaining, the better. If I don’t want to do something, I say, “Wow, I really love that you asked me, and, no, thank you.”. If pressed for a reason, I usually say, “it just doesn’t feel right to me…I know, it’s crazy, I’ve done it a hundred times before and this time it just doesn’t feel right to me.” Then there’s nothing to defend and I get to build my trust in my feelings…AND, often I feel a sense of guilt for standing up for myself (a hallmark of growing up in a dysfunctional environment!)..so I feel the guilt, deal with it, and eventually feel really good about myself.
If it’s a good enough friend I will flat out say I don’t want to and talk about feeling bad and selfish and we laugh about it, and with THOSE friends, we are supportive of each other’s growth and GET it. None of those particular friends wants someone doing them a favor whose heart isn’t in it, especially if it involves being around their children.
It’s okay to not like doing it and it’s okay to not do it if you don’t want to. Wanting or not wanting to do something is ENOUGH reason to do it or not. WANTING or NOT WANTING is ENOUGH enough enough! How are you going to GET those children you want so much if you’re sitting around making yourself miserable watching other people’s instead of making yourself happy and available?
Alice B
I totally agree, many people do not know what the right thing is.
My passion these days as a teacher or coach… is to share with others basic values like ‘Integrity, honesty, kindness, perseverance, self-control…’
There are some great resources, just today I used the books ‘7 Habits of Highly Successful People’ by Stephen Covey, ‘Kick in the Attitude’ by Sam Glenn, then the classic for relationships ‘Men Are From Mars, Women are From Venus’ by John Gray.
Some of us naturally, through our associations and lifestyle, are surrounded by people who have integrity, for others there are wonderful mentors and coaches like those listed above – Stephen Covey, etc.
Even though we can see declining values in society (like kids yelling at their parents and even hitting them), I find it really exciting to help people who do want to change their lives. As a teacher in the classroom, I feel honoured to be part of this every day!
Thanks Natalie, you rock 🙂
I’m working on ‘No’ Grace. When you put it like that it sounds easy.
The children are adorable Sunshine but I don’t get to see them cos they’re in bed. But I take your point. I don’t know what’s behind this helplessness, it’s as if I’m in a trance sometimes.
AliceB, I understand the idea of feeling like you’re in a trance. I’ve had that too. I want to say no, and yet I find the words, “Sure, I’ll do it!” coming out of my mouth like I’m a sock puppet and someone is moving my lips! I’ve had some counseling and learned that this is a pattern from very early in my life. My mother is a narcissist. Dad chose to give in to her, and taught us kids to do that too, rather than deal with her temper tantrums. As the oldest, it especially fell to me to pacify her, and take care of my younger brothers and sisters. Then, when the brothers and sisters started having kids — I was expected to be the on-call babysitter for them too.
I resented this, but I could not even see that I had the right to say no. I had just never learned that my wants and needs are as important as anyone else’s. And of course, I continued this pattern of behavior with everyone — co-workers, boyfriends, friends, relatives.
I’m becoming aware of this now, and working to change. Slowly, it’s getting easier to say no to unreasonable requests. Yesterday, I said no to a colleague who was trying to slough some work of hers off onto me. I’d help if she truly needed it — but she was slacking off all day. Why should I do extra work because she chose to play? My first thought was to say, “Oh sure, I can help,” and I felt anxious saying no at first….but I was able to say, “No,” and later I felt good that I’d stood up for myself.
This saying yes to things you don’t want to do is a habit — and like breaking any habit, it will feel uncomfortable at first. It’s like when I moved to a new neighborhood. To get to my new place, I had to turn left on the main highway instead of right when I left work. For several weeks, I’d leave work and turn in the direction of my old neighborhood. It was just so automatic, such a habit. Of course, I eventually got used to turning left. As I’ll eventually get used to saying no.
Hi Wendy
My uprbringing was very similar and while I was aware of the affect my mother’s abuse had on me, it was only with this last A/C that I realized the effect my father’s passivity had on my relationships. That he never kept me safe, or protected me from her. That he threw me under the wheels of the bus to avoid her wrath. Now I see why I always accepted the role of ‘less then’. That I held my father up like a knight in shining armor just because he wasn’t the raving lunatic she was. They had a willing, co-dependent relationship with each other . I’m sure if I had been given a choice I would have said ‘I want no part of this’. I’m sorry I turned this into a therapy session, I am just trying to warn you also of a potential to enter into co-dependant relationships. I thought my role was to protect daddy! I am ashamed for him!
His 2 best guy friends’ wives equals his harem. He says one of them is like a hot step sister. He slaps her rear and she tells him secrets behind her husbands back. The other is not attracted to her husband. In fact, his herem are both not happy in their marriages but only tell him. Time to move on?
To Coco, regarding your question, YES, it’s time for you to move on. You deserve a man who is focused on YOU. Not slapping other women’s backsides and talking over/worrying about other women’s romantic problems. Get out now, don’t look back.
Melanie, thank you. I needed someone else’s perspective. I cannot believe how long I’ve been blinded by him. I’m terribly embarrassed to say this but since 1995. 🙁 I’m so ashamed. Natalie has saved my life.
Coco, I hope you’re able to move away from your guy. I can’t tell you what to do, but I know for me, I’d rather be alone than devote myself to a man who wants me to play second fiddle. To me, the topic of this particular post is the one that seems to be the most prevalent as a recurring theme (in one form or the other) in the relationships I’ve had. And I really relate to your situation too with your man (or ex-man??) being enmeshed with his male friends’ significant others. I’ve run into men like him time and time again. Fortunately I did not stay too long with them, but none the less it is a very common issue with men. They devote themselves to their buddies’ girlfriends or wives, and then treat their own girlfriends like they’re second fiddle. My last BF had a harem, some of the people in his harem were his relatives and their children, some were his friends, some were his exes and their children, some were his buddies’ significant others and their children. The boyfriend before that was obsessed with a married couple who were his “best friends” sometimes he called them his family, meaning his primary chosen family (and they were also distantly related to him). His life revolved around this particular couple and also around that couple’s child. He pretended the child was his responsibility. He pretended the wife’s needs were his responsibility. Him and the couple all phoned each other every single night to talk over the days events (often several times a day too), and at the conversation close, “I Love You”s all around. He even had 30 + photos of the couple’s daughter on his phone and “proudly” displayed them to everyone, not minding that people often mistakenly believed the child was his. He was even thinking of tattooing their daughter’s name on his arm!!! (By the way I hope I make clear that I’m not talking about him loving the daughter in some romantic way, he wasn’t a pedophile. It was more of an inappropriate attachment/devotion issue in which he devoted himself to them, in order to avoid the responsibility in developing his OWN LIFE!!) In addition to that couple, there was a second couple and their children who he had a similarly enmeshed relationship with. And he also had a unnatural devotion to his dogs, to the point where he often “pit” the dogs against me in some dramatic emotional tug of war (in his mind). For example he often fretted out loud about how nervous he was for me to meet his dogs… what if they didn’t like me? What if they were jealous of me? When he and I were together he would continually fret out loud about whether his dogs were worried he wouldn’t come home, telling stories over and over about how they would sit there and pout when he was leaving to pick me up, and how he was worried they would be psychologically damaged by him leaving to see me, and worried that they would smell me when he returned … it went on and on. There was A LOT more to it than even that, but you get my point. Luckily I got away from that guy in relatively short time. Oh, and of course he kept telling me he loved me (I never said the same, I couldn’t feel love for someone who was unable to devote himself to me) and when I dumped him he begged me back for a long time. He had obviously already chosen who he has devoted his life to, and it isn’t me. Good Riddance!! That guy was a real piece of work, yes, but unfortunately I have met many men who in one form or another have similar inappropriate enmeshments. Oh and also I agree with you Natalie’s insights are really a life-line!! We need a reality check and a strong advocate in our corner reminding us not to rationalize the BS!
Interesting! It has taken me 12 months to work out what happened to me and many tears of frustration wondering what i did wrong and i now know that this was never about me. I had a male friend (he no longer speaks to me as i told him i had enough of his behaviour after a dozen cancellations in 6 months!, all by text with no reason given) A couple were dates, a lot just “catching up” He has an unusual “harem” of girls usually no older than 20, he is 45! His longest relationship was 6 months. I was the first woman he had dated for a few years and the first he had kissed in as many years. A bad move, i know that now….he ran for the hills. He lived at the back of his sister’s in a bungalow and after they had a disagreement, he ran and moved back in with his mother! I got an invite to his birthday (the night before), only after i found out his family had a go at him for not asking me as i was a friend. They all knew how much that and all the cancellations hurt. They all told me he is an idiot and not worth it. They were so right. We had spent a lot of time together in the 6 months. His excuse for all this behaviour and cancellations was and i quote ” i’m unreliable”. He found plenty of time to be around at his bro’s nearly ever night of the week and a lot of weekends. It must drive them insane as they have a family. He found plenty of time to constantly “chill” (his words) with his niece and her many girlfriends, take them shopping, movies, breakfast, numerous driving lessons, holidays etc but couldn’t commit to a cup of coffee with me, though he had told me how great he thinks i am and how much my friendship means to him…bla bla.Yeah right!. The young girls tell him how wonderful he is just like his mother does i’m sure. It is great for his ego.He said that he can’t give me what i SEEM to want or need. He assumed, incorrectly that i wanted a relationship.I was not interested in a relationship as i had not long got out of a long term one. All i wanted was not to be constantly cancelled on and an explanation, (yes he was right, he couldn’t give me that!) preferrably not via text, which was his main method of communication. He flirted a lot with me but when i did, he said i was fishing. Go figure! Another reason to run.It was o.k. for him but not me. I am good friends with his family. Last time i was at his brother’s, he actually hid from me in a back room. Cowardly..yes! He knows he treated me badly and can’t face me. So i think he is emotionally unavailable, cannot handle any type of confrontation and runs from it, (hence not speaking to me at all in 12 months.), commitment to anything phobic, living in never never land with Peter Pan and those young girls and extremely immature. But it took me a long time to try to works it out as i was never given an explanation, only the “i can’t give you what you seem to want”. I believe he was looking for any excuse to run and i was damned if i did and damned if i didn’t. The young girls i figured are “safe”. They would never want anything from him, they are no threat, but i was and he reacted the only way he knew how in litle boy land. He has never lived on his own or lived with anyone in a relationship. Now he has his mother again to cook, clean, etc for him and the young girls to hold that ego up. I was pretty upset for a good 6 months but now i know, he did me a favour and that i would never be the exception to the rule, so he can keep his young harem until they are driving, getting boyfriends and don’t need him anymore. What a long hard lesson that was…..I don’t know whay i put up with it so long, i lost any shred of self respect i had left..I am worth so much more than his cowardice and crap. Somtimes i have thought to confront him but figure that my friendship was at the end of the day worth absolutely nothing and he has made no effort whatsoever so i will not waste my time or effort on him. Actions always speak louder than words……..this site has been my saving grace and i want to say thankyou from the bottom of my heart! I have my self respect back and am feeling good again, so thankyou 🙂
Wow. I just got this link from a friend on a different board. I am glad I found you all.
I just realized my ex bf also has a harem. I have known about them for a while but clarity on what is going on is starting to happen. I just broke up with him last week. The day after I ended it he made plans with one of his harem. I knew this would happen as we have been on again off again for 3 years. And the last time I broke up with him he was on the dating sites within days. But I think he keeps his harem around for self acceptance.
You see he is about 100lbs over weight. His harem are all skinny in shape women. I think he hides behind these women avoiding his own weight problem. If he can rationalize that skinny women want to hang out with him even if he is overweight then his weight problem isnt that bad. Its like we were all arm candy.
He refuses to date overweight women for that reason. He told me when we were off again that this nurse was interested in him and kept emailing him. He was pissed at that and refused to date her because she was overweight. This confused me at the time. But now its starting to make sense.
And he goes to great lengths to keep these women around. He will travel any distance to help them out. Store their stuff in his basement. Accept calls and texts at all hours of the day and night from them. And basically be used by them in multiple ways to keep them hanging around. He does none of this for his few male friends. And when he needs help from someone the men are not there to help.
When we broke up he went to only women for comforting. He keeps his ex’s hanging around too. One date with him when we were a new couple he accepted a call from an ex gf. The call was overly lengthy and overly friendly all while I was sitting on the couch with him feeling very uncomfortable.
I am glad I found this blog. His actions are starting to make some sense to me and I am GLAD he is history. He has and will continue to try to keep me hanging around too. He did last time. But this time I asked for no contact and blocked him from emailing, calling or from facebook.
Laurie