I’ve met and read about a number of people who’ve been involved with a ‘Chopper’, someone who finds your ‘hot spots’ or makes them up (yes really) and engages in criticism and mind games to knock you off your centre and chop you down. They’ll drain you of your confidence, weaken your defences, and bolster their own weak selves by chopping at you to ‘level’ you or even elevate themselves. Choppers and their manipulative, abusive behaviour are insidious – their true selves creep up on you and by the time you accept what you’re dealing with, they’ve often robbed you of the strength to leave.
Why does someone want to chop you down and even more importantly, how can you end up being sucked in by a Chopper and believing their crap?
What’s truly gobsmacking is that the Chopper has the audacity to judge and appoint themselves as ‘experts’ in the first place. There is likely to be a time early in the relationship, possibly unbeknownst to you where the Chopper perceived you to be ‘better’ and then they took up their mandate of changing this.
While some Choppers are obviously aggressive, it’s covert aggression often with a ‘Poor Poor Me’ attitude that somehow has them criticising you while portraying themselves as a victim. They’ll often point blank deny that what they’ve said is inappropriate and may accuse you of being oversensitive, no doubt adding another black mark to their mental dossier on you.
There may be subtle signs of what’s to come but the writing’s on the wall when they make an outrageous statement / accusation that you feel that you have to defend yourself against.
“You think you’re better than me. You’re so superior.” I’ve heard from a number of readers who’ve had the “superior” accusation and it preys on their worst fear because it’s something they’d already worried about. You’re likely to worry about this when you’ve been treated as if being intelligent or having achievements is a ‘bad’ thing that makes those around you feel bad. Next thing you’re downplaying yourself.
An ex of mine basically accused me of being shallow and said that I’d tire of him because my ex before him worked in IT and earned more money. It came out of left field and was completely untrue.
“You wanted to be with that guy/girl didn’t you?” and you’re thinking What the hell are they talking about?
“You’re going to cheat on me aren’t you? I can feel it.” Eventually it’s likely to be them cheating on you.
“You’re not as clever as you think you are you know….”
“I prefer a woman with bigger breasts / white / Christian…” and you have smaller breasts or are not white or are a different religion.
“I don’t know if I could be in a serious relationship or love someone that did _________” It is likely to be something really dumb. One reader told me that she was told off for dropping things and not being a good driver.
It’s important to realise that a Chopper has no shame about making something up. They know that they have you where they want you when you’re defending yourself instead of seeing this as a code red.
A Chopper wants to cut you down because it builds them up.
Unhappy with themselves and passive aggressively simmering with resentment, anger, and frustration, in their mind you ‘make’ them feel bad about themselves and so in turn, they deliberately say and do things to relieve that feeling, even though you haven’t done anything. They take out their insecurities on you. They don’t know how to receive love, never mind give it, and they justify their behaviour by believing that they act as they do because you’re not good enough for them to behave better, neglecting to realise that what they’re doing is about their own relationship with themselves and that if you were to do some digging into their past, you would see that they have form for this behaviour and you are just someone else that they’ve stuck their claws (and their axe) into.
Choppers have a convoluted and complex framework of truth and honesty which means that they give themselves license to be ‘honest’ (without respect) while at the same time telling lies.
I guarantee you – if you’re with a Chopper, they’re not being entirely truthful and no doubt if you catch them in a lie, they’ll turn it around on you. If they breach your trust and you tell them to jog on and then they weasel their way back in, you’ll be apologising. It’ll be “I want to love you but it’s hard when I feel like you don’t trust me. You have a lot of issues.”
It becomes an attempt to please the un-pleasable even though in the early stage of the relationship when they’re likely Fast Forwarding you and engaging in a spot of Future Faking that blinds you, it may appear like you can do no wrong. You’ll remember this phase of course, no matter how short it was before the code amber and red behaviour showed up and you’ll convince yourself that you’ve done something ‘wrong’ or that you’re ‘making’ them insecure. Don’t forget though, it’s the fact that they’ve misrepresented themselves or that you’re likely to see who they truly are that has them chopping at you in the first place.
A Chopper gets stronger and stronger, the weaker you get and the longer you stick around and at the same time, they actually have the cheek to lose respect for you. If you defend yourself, attempt to accommodate them, and stick around, they mark you down and it’s like “Ha! I knew that you weren’t so special!”
The Chopper latches onto your own private thoughts about you and based on your reaction or even simply remaining with them, they figure out where to ‘chop’. If you’ve shared anything with them that represents a previous hurt or any fears, heaven help you because they will be all over it like a rash. Another person would be empathetic and wouldn’t judge you – they’ll seize it as a weapon to use against you.
You might be vulnerable simply because you are already emotionally invested and you really don’t want to have to start over again or admit that you’ve moved too fast or made an error in judgement. If you value a relationship more than you value yourself, they’ll exploit that desperation.
The vulnerability likely stems from what you privately or even openly think of yourself. When you hear them saying it out loud, it’s your worst fears in 3D. Oh my gosh, it’s true! I’m not good enough because I don’t have the right body.
Even if some of the things that the Chopper says are not true or are stupid, if some of the other things they say tap into your fears, you may start to believe the lies or think the stupid stuff is important.
When you apologise for being and doing things that another person would think they were on crack to do the same, after the relationship ends, it can be shocking to face that you let someone like the Chopper tell you who you are.
When one reader who is highly successful, owns her own home, lots of friends, busy life, found herself being chopped down by an unemployed man who dodges his taxes, was living in her home rent free, was hardly Mr Popularity and didn’t have much going on his life, I was opened mouthed at the catalogue of verbal and emotional abuse that he’d thrown at her. Thank goodness she finally bounced his arse out. Yet she is still turning over all of the crap that he said.
What I can assure you of is that it’s highly likely that whatever they’re targeting about you is really about them. They’re chopping at you because they’ve been chopped at for the same thing, or they’re chopping at you because on some level they envy you but rather than assert these qualities in themselves, they’d rather knock them out of you.
Don’t get it twisted – being involved with a Chopper is a form of abusive relationship.
Good self-esteem or not so good self-esteem, the moment you find yourself on the receiving end of being verbally mistreated, especially when it’s early in the relationship, and you find yourself experiencing mind effery and tip toeing around them, it’s time to make a fast exit. No excuses, no hyper analysis.
Never agree with someone who is running you down and taking chunks out of you. They’re wrong.
You are a beautiful, unique person – somebody will love and appreciate you without attacking the very essence of you. Stop agreeing with their treatment of you – it’s what gives them their ‘fuel’.
Their behaviour isn’t about you. You could be The Most Perfect Person On Earth – this person chops everything good out of their life. Just don’t let them chop the you out of you – get out.
Your thoughts?
About the Author:
Natalie Lue is the founder and writer of Baggage Reclaim and author of the books Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl, The Dreamer and the Fantasy Relationship and more. Learn more about her here and you can also follow her on Facebook and Twitter - @baggagereclaim .
Natalie (NML) – who has written 1083 posts on Baggage Reclaim by Natalie Lue.
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I know I have been in this position before. My ex boyfriend stopped being intimate with me for several months because he said that his career was too important. I felt bereft because of this and after too long waiting, I asked him why he wasn’t paying me any effort or attention. I wasn’t happy with this but he turned it on me and told me that it was my fault for not being good enough in bed and that “relationships are about more than just sex”. I felt lonely because he was treating me as a friend rather than a girlfriend and he seemed quite oblivious to this. We had an argument about it and he tried to walk away. So I grabbed his sleeve and pulled him back into the room because I felt it was disrespectful for him to not want to listen to me. He told me what I did was wrong and domestic violence.
It’s only recently that I have been able to feel righteous anger because of how he treated me, mostly because of guilt. If I had found this blog before, I would have been prevented from my reaction. I ended up cheating on him because I was so lonely and desperate to feel sexually wanted. I am only trying to explain my actions, not to validate them. I did tell him straight away because I thought he ought to know, and he ended it there. This has prompted me to re-examine how I feel about relationships, and about being alone.
There is one thing I am sure of, and that is the knowledge that he won’t ever feel guilty about mistreating me but that I will get all the blame in his mind for having cheated on him. This was only made worse by people taking his side against mine without bothering to hear my side of the story. He sent me an email a few weeks into our break-up demanding that we talk. I said that I’d be happy to but that I wanted to wait until a few months had passed so there was less resentment between us. He got extremely angry with me and sent me a threatening email afterwards, telling me to stop talking about him on relationship advice forums I frequent. He forbid his friends from talking to me but contacted all of mine to tell them all what a bitch and whore I was. Someone later pointed out to me that regardless of what I did, I need to stop feeling sorry for him. What are your thoughts?
Oh lucy when I got to the part where you feel sorry for him I confess I burst out laughing. I did not see that coming. Dont feel sorry for him. It’s a genius master stroke that they get us to feel sorry for them.
I felt sorry for the abusive ex because I cheated on him. Look, you and I both know that their behaviour doesn’t excuse our cheating but our cheating doesn’t Excuse their behaviour either. Nc, learn and move on, in time. But not too much time. Don’t get stuck on giving yourself a hard time.
When I struggled with forgiving myself I remembered that – as a Christian – God has forgiven me, so it would be kinda disrespectful for me not to forgive myself. I don’t have carte Blanche to do what I like but what I do have these days is the freedom and presence of mind to do the right thing. And so can you.
Thank you, Grace. Yes that is what my friends said. They told me that despite everything that happened, I’ve been giving myself far too much of a hard time and that I shouldn’t concern myself with what he’s doing or how he’s moved on. At least I’ve learnt now to care only about opinions which matter. I take a lot less to heart than I used to.
Lucy and Grace,
I’m so glad to know I’m alone in these feelings of guilt. I didn’t “cheat” per se, but I did talk to another guy when the whole porn/lie thing exploded last year. There was no flirting, but my motives were wrong. I was looking for emotional validation, and I’m disgusted with myself because of it. I told my ex about it, and he said it was the main reason he kept breaking it off. That and I broke off the engagement. Honestly, he told me several different things about why he broke up with me. Anyway…
I think I justified his crappy behavior because I had hurt him so much. I know he justified his crappy behavior because of it. But that’s a slippery, tit-for-tat slope. “I hurt you because you hurt me because I hurt you….” I have taken responsibility for what I did. It honestly scares the hell out of me that I was capable of that. I just wish he would have taken responsibly for his part without blaming me. It’s a very lopsided position to be in. I also think it perpetuates the thinking that, “I don’t deserve better. I deserve to continue in this purgatory of a relationship.” I’m fighting this very thing right now.
Sorry, I know it’s a bit off topic. I’m just so glad to see I’m not alone in this struggle.
lucy-
hang on. its hard to type while i’m spitting nails.
-deep breath-
let’s step back for a sec, a sec in which ANY woman tries to say to ANY guy “sorry, can’t have sex with you, my career is too important.”
y’know what would happen? he’d be GONE.
and, on the rare chance that he didn’t go, if we then tried to say, “further, its your own fault for not being good enough in bed.”? THEN he’d definitely be gone.
look, i know exactly how hard it is to fight invalidation and emotional abuse. when we grow up with abuse, it can feel impossible to justify our own points of view against someone who is, or is behaving like, a monster. and sometimes, counter-intuitively, the worse the monster, the harder it is to stick up for ourselves.
but stick up for yourself you MUST. don’t just not feel bad for him. you need to REVILE him. he’s not just a chopper. he’s a lying, mean, vicious, hypocritical, gas lighting (oh, RIGHT, you domestically abused him) evil bastard. who chose to not have sex with you either as a means of manipulation (c’mon! what guy does that?!?!? that’s totally sick.) OR – sorry, honey – because he was … ok, i can’t make myself type it, you fill in the blank…but it just makes him more evil. and who contacted your friends to talk shit about you? and they didn’t stick up for you? and he cruelly admonished you for telling the simple truth?
honey, no. try to see this more clearly.
1- he’s a SOCIOPATH. repeat after me: *sociopath*. no longer do you care a whit about what HE thinks – his agreement is one thing you do NOT need.
2- kick ANYBODY who didn’t stick up for you against him, who invalidated you, out of your life. and i mean a.n.y.o.n.e. i don’t care who they are, even family members. if you go from 100 friends to zero friends because of this, you’ll be better off.
honey, please rethink every single relationship in your life and clean. house. until it sparkles with no toxicity, dishonesty, or shrewish coldness.
you need love and understanding. i know i’m a damn broken record around here, but you start with you. STOP accepting abusive behavior from EVERYone. and then, you will see that anyone else who does not give you love and understanding does not deserve a thought in your head or a place in your life.
Thanks. He wasn’t always so awful but how he acted after the break-up showed me his true colours. I absolutely regret cheating with all my heart but when he knew, I wish he would have said something like “Why did you cheat on me? Isn’t our love worth more?” but his response was more about ego. He said he was hurt and that “I don’t like the thought of you with another guy”.
But I have to be honest about what happened. It turned out, I realised later, that he was delaying sex because he actually has an insecure fear about it and was having erectile dysfunction problems. But he limited my capacity to be as sympathetic as I wanted to be because he didn’t tell me about it, and he blamed his erectile dysfunction on me. He had enough time to watch porn but no time to spend on me.
Well I thought about what you said. My friends did defend me without me having to ask. But they are a bit insecure too so perhaps went along with it for longer than they should have done. They know about the whole situation and are on my side.
A few months after the break-up he sent me photographs that I had left on his computer. I sent him a message to thank him and he replied asking me to stop talking about him on advice forums in return. I refused and told him “you can’t tell me what to do”. He then messaged one of my friends again and said “I told her to stop talking about me on forums. It was perfectly reasonable request”. Those photos were owed to me anyway, and I did not mention him by name online so talking about it did not do any harm.
hi Lucy, don’t get lost in details, try to look at it like it’s a movie or happening to somebody else. My ex also found me once here, and said that whatever he’d done, making him ‘look dirty’ was out of line. Narcissism alert! It’s not about him! Here: it’s about you trying to make sense of it all, trying to learn something, trying to adress your own issues. I didn’t screenshot my comments and mailed him! He searched for me on the internet, probably rigoriously and found me and recognised the story. And thén he said I was out of line. Why? Because hé searched for me and didn’t like what he found? Bad luck, if I can’t talk about my feelings to him and according to him I shouldn’t talk about them here, then who’s got controlling issues? It is NOT a reasonable request. Even if you would mention him by name (though that’s a bit more gossiping then anything else) but even so, you do what makes you feel better, you come here out of frustration of your own experience, you don’t come here to make him feel worse. It’s all about him and his excuses but you better be sure you don’t make one for yourself ’cause he won’t have a taste for yours right? Right. Narcissists. Ugh.
Thanks Sofie. I never cared about trying to control the narrative of our relationship after we broke up. I did and still feel that what irked me about him was entirely justified. I did not post it for him to see. He followed me around online and found it. Your post really helped clarify it for me…
And I have some more questions on my mind still. When I told him about the cheating, I made the decision not to go into any great detail about it. In fact I told him that I had only kissed someone else and not gone further, when in fact I had done. This was not to cover my guilt but to protect his feelings. I didn’t think there was any reason for him to feel worse. At that point I was sure he would not find out otherwise. Then a former friend betrayed me because she thought he had to know the truth.
He did not accept my reasoning on this and reacted horribly telling me I was an awful person and that I should “at least be honest with [him] for once”. But if he had been honest with me about his sexual hang-ups and porn addiction, this whole chain of events would not have started up…
uh…ok. now i feel like an idiot, the new information puts an entirely different cast on it. but ok.
hi cc,
I love your broken record.
I decided to flush everybody who doesn’t feel like sticking with me is an option they’d prefer.
And I feel light as a feather.
Less phonecalls to make: yes, but a better morning to wake up to.
Because now my own reflections smiles at me, it doesn’t raise its eyebrows anymore.
When you’ve grown up hearing putdowns, your ears become immune to them. While a healthy person would hear the putdown and walk away, we don’t properly hear it and absorb the information of it, and we stick around hoping to counteract it, or pray that it doesn’t happen again. My reaction to verbal abuse in the past has left me strangely paralyzed with shame, as if I must have heard wrong. My mind would go blank and I’d become stunned, like “this isn’t happening to me.” When my ex AC started to verbally abuse me, I was crushed, and knew the relationship was doomed, but instead of leaving, I crumbled into a weakened survival mode, as if I’d relinquished all my power and I was just trying to get by, day by day, with a shred of dignity intact. I was overwhelmed with shame, and desperate to make him see me the way he’d seen me at the beginning of the relationship. Of course, the humiliation of my lowly position, of selling myself out, became too great, and I rescued myself, finally.
Now, as I build my self-esteem and my power, I am able to hear the putdowns and insults and boundary-busting words with crystal-clear clarity, for the first time in my life. It’s like I have new ears. I don’t immediately own the insult and believe it, nor try to hide from it in shame, or go into shock mode — instead, I hear the words for what they are, and I see the person delivering them for what they are, and I know that person must be ejected from my life instantly. I have done this a few times in my newly enlightened phase, and I can’t tell you how good it feels to clear my life of these toxic losers.
I wish had such clarity earlier in my life, but thank God I have it now. Having boundaries and self-respect is absolutely life altering.
Thank you so much for your posting. I was married to a “chopper”, and it was a living, breathing, walking nightmare from hell. He pulled the good ole’ bait-and-switch. I, too, finally found the courage and strength to rescue myself. Never before and never again will I allow myself to be in such a situation.
here’s one thing i’m taking from all of this -
an actual chopper, as natalie describes, is pretty rare. i’ve only met 1 that fits the strict description, and that’s why i was so thrown, like 1000 miles off center, when it happened to me. and i like the term “chopp/ing/er” when applied in this specific case, because it is so precise.
HOWEVER – we have all met (were raised by, etc) LOTS of people who, while not possessing the full-on chopper syndrome, engaged in all types of chopping, chipping, undermining, gaslighting, and emotionally abusive behavior – some of whom didn’t even mean to do it on purpose.
my ex-EUM did this – he was a black belt at flipping the script, calling crumbs loaves, subtle undermining, and a yellow belt at unintentional gaslighting. and, as easy as it is for me to villify him (he practically wears the black villain cape), in truth, he wasn’t even trying to hurt me – he was just woefully incapable.
my point? just to be aware of these behaviors when they happen. sometimes its worse in a way when its subtle, when its unwitting, when its mixed in with truly good qualities that the other person possesses, because then its harder to see, harder to believe, easier to forgive, easier to excuse, yet makes the two of you no less devastatingly, and sadly, incompatible with each other.
Oh wow! That last exchange between teachable & dancing queen made me realize something: I have a girlfriend who does that: chop, chop, chop. The entire time I was rejecting the MMs love-talk as just a lot of blather, and trying to keep my humor and equilibrium to keep a healthy distance, she was throwing chops at me left, right and center: “You can’t even see when someone loves you!” I would shoot back no, he loves how I make him feel, but he knows almost nothing about me, he certainly cannot love me. On and on it went. “You’re too hard on him him,” “He’s having a rough time,” “You shouldn’t have said that,” blah blah blah. I wonder if any of you experienced this…someone rejecting your reality because they ‘know better’ even when your self-preservation is on the line. If this individual hadn’t had an affair herself, and subsequently left her husband, I never would have shared with her. Good thing I didn’t heed those chops, or someone would be scraping me off the floor.
Yep. One of my best friends since high school. I was relating to her why I couldn’t spend the holidays with my folks (my mother is incredibly abusive). She said, “Your mother isn’t that bad. Your sister doesn’t have any problems with her…” It was incredibly hurtful and invalidating. I had shared stories of clear emotional, verbal, and physical abuse and yet that was her response.
She’s also married, and every time we got together she would give me a hard time about being single. I always left our get-togethers feeling sh*t about myself. Now clearly she is not responsible for how *I* feel, but I did determine that I didn’t need to have friends that constantly invalidate my experiences or “chop” me down because I’m single and they’re married. I’ve never had to NC a friend before, but I feel it was necessary.
And clearly there’s a difference between “chopping” someone down and giving them advice. I can take criticism, and I’m thankful that my friends love me enough to tell me when they think I’m doing something potentially destructive (like staying in a bad relationship). And they’re respectful about it. Chopping is a completely different experience. I feel much better without her in my life.
Laurie
My counsellor said that I have experienced things that most people could not even begin to understand. The boyfriend doesn’t understAnd it. He prob thinks my mom is just a bit loopy.
But I don’t need him to get it. I get it. My sister gets it and my brothers get is. A very few other people get it. Most won’t or can’t. On its own it doesn’t make them unfriendworthy
You know, and no one can take that from you.
But her giving you a hard time about being single is disrespectful IMO. You could try talking to her about it if you think it won’t upset you to do so. Otherwise put in some distance. You could try ignoring it, but that’s my speciality, I get that not everyone can do that and I’m not sure it’s the best tactic anyway.
Thanks grace. I tried to talk to her a few months ago because I felt like I was giving more than I was receiving in the relationship. I would try to call or make plans and she would just blow me off. I texted her one morning and asked if she would be free that evening to talk. She freaked out and insisted I tell her right then what I wanted to talk about. I was stressing her out, etc. It was really weird. I ended up calling her on my lunch break because I didn’t want to stress her out.(?)I guess that kind of put me off talking to her. Maybe I should. I’m just a little afraid of her reaction and I’m not sure if I’m up for the drama right now.
laurie-
i agree with what grace said about people who have not had exact or similar experiences to hers not being able to understand (and it is good that she doesn’t need them to, but i bet they are kind and understanding nonetheless). it used to be that, before i learned to stop telling them, people would react to my stories of my abuse as if i were making it up, overreacting, or flat out lying. they could not imagine anyone doing what my parents did to me and my siblings, therefore they rejected my reality outright. they could not get it. hence, most of my close friends are people who were abused as children and who are committed to healing and progressing.
where you have to draw the line is when someone invalidates you and cannot offer any kind of understanding or support. i could never be friends with the people i described above, who couldn’t even say to me “i can’t really relate because i was lucky enough to not suffer that, but i understand and am sorry that happened to you.”
your high school friend sounds absolutely awful, and you don’t have to take that. moreover, just because she reacted that way does NOT make her right, and comparing you to your sister was just downright mean.
you know what happened to you and how your mother is! don’t allow her to impinge on what you know to be true. do not tolerate invalidation and do not seek validation from an invalidator. you don’t need her agreement – validate herself.
*yourself
Things I was chopped for:
Too much hair down there
Not enough hair on eyebrows (I plucked them) (I stopped plucking them for him)
Big forehead/hairline too far back
Too much makeup (I actually don’t wear that much)
Perfume stinks (in general – I stopped wearing it for him)
Too Christian
Too ‘American’ (and I’m not even American, not from anywhere near there – that’s his term for being too over the top, fakely positive and enthusiastic as opposed to cold hard brutal ‘honesty’/harsh words)
Too materialistic (cause I ‘worked too much’ and liked to spend the money I’d earned on things I like)
Too comfort-loving/seeking (cause I like to eat nice, good quality food and don’t enjoy being cold)
Not adventurous enough (even though I’ve lived in 3 countries other than my own, in the last 5 years) (and where did I meet him? In his home country)
Tried to tell me I was like the mother in Six Feet Under – who, if you don’t know the show, is in her sixties, and frumpy, sexually repressed and neurotic
Tried to tell me I was like the jealous wife in in one scene of the movie The Witches, who is also extremely frumpy, awful, and a caricature of the uptight dumpy insecure middle-aged woman. (Mind you, I have just turned 28 and my dress sense is in no way frumpy or “old woman-ish”.) I tried to tell him that that was an extremely hurtful thing to say to your girlfriend, and that any woman would be hurt to be compared to these awful characters. He denied there was anything wrong with what he’d said and then again belittled my concerns as me being “too sensitive”
Bike too slow
Walk too fast (does it really make sense he could use BOTH those ‘faults’ against me?)
And the list goes on. This post has awoken a fire inside me, and made things clearer than any other wisdom I’ve read on here. Making me remember things that I haven’t thought about for a long time. It’s extremely helpful to have a term to describe the kind of person he is; I feel much better equipped to deal with my regrets and the eventual possibility of running in to him or him making contact again after our 3 months is up (I initially told him I wanted 3 months NC but now I see there’s no point going back to any level of contact). Again, from the bottom of my heart, thank you.
LOL, wren thanks for your post. Now I know why I was called too American. I totally mean this in a good way, you do seem a little American. I have had all that stuff said to me, including that I needed to show more cleavage, at least he prefaced it with you have the boobs for it. No I’m not frumpy either, I like taylored clothing. Love your post we could be friends
Thanks sm
I’m glad to know I’m not the only one out there that’s experienced this type of mind-effery. Still, I’m wondering, what makes you say I seem a little American?! Very curious. I’m from the other side of the world from the US. I think my generation was raised on American tv and movies though…
I think we went out with the same guy. Funny thing is, if I said something about HIM (which was rare), I was a ‘bitch’, but when he said crap about me, he was ‘being honest’ and/or ‘helping’ me. Who the hell do they think they are that they are so perfect. Then when he dumped me for his ‘perfect’ woman (who was married with kids…she was an idiot but I don’t think she actually had any interest in leaving her husband), failed, then failed at 8 months of on-line dating, he came crawling back. Still didn’t understand why I thought he was a jerk, so FLUSH.
Who do these guys think they are to say such horrible things to the people they are supposed to ‘love’? Insecure assholes, that’s what. It’s just that they get you when you aren’t 100% and have a sixth sense in how to find your weaknesses and abuse them.
Hi all,
Things over here in day-before-classes-ville are rocky, as the relationship with my new landlord has exploded. My new roommate and I have given our notice.
Now, with all I learned from BR, I was literally seconds away from walking away from this tenancy before it started, having seen red flags. I chose to go against my own judgment and go with the opinion of the roommate and be more ‘flexible,’ and now here we are with a landlord who continues to try to claw back pieces of what she promised to include under our agreement.
My new roommate, a male, has just arrived and now is dealing with the landlord himself (I did almost all initial contact) and NOW he agrees the landlord is beyond difficult. What is very difficult for me is that I am upset, and he wants to do the talking with her because he thinks I’m too upset.
I am really caught: I am upset and angry, but do not want to let a man I really only barely know suddenly step in and be the calm one and do my negotiating.
We have given our notice. We have to move. I am stressed beyond belief. Would you believe I even had a bike wipeout this morning and conked myself on the pave and the office ladies called first aid? I’m off balance!
I have to say that in my mind I am chopping the *shit* out of this lady (the landlord) and my visible seething fury, or weepiness, is making it hard for me to be taken seriously by those who have just arrived on the scene. If there is a way to be angry at someone for renegging on a contract, multiple times, and playing the victim, without calling her a b*tch – I am not there yet!! I am doing very well holding it together by my own standards, though.
In any case I’ve been enthralled by this post and thought I’d share this link that I came across as I searched for help on how to deal with my landlord.
It’s called “improving assertive behaviour” and what struck me most about the 10 assertive rights about an individual was the right to *not* have to explain behaviour and the right to change one’s mind. It never occurred to me before that “Others may try to manipulate my behavior and feelings by demanding to know my reasons and by trying to persuade me that I am wrong, but I know that I am the ultimate judge”.
I stopped, because in part I have both given reasons for my behaviour and listened to reasons given, not realizing that no one *has* to give reasons. I always felt I had the right to know *why* and the obligation to say why when asked.
This insight has helped me look through the protestations of my landlord as she decided to cancel services (“poor me”) and think, I don’t need the explanations, all I know is your behaviour, and I don’t need to explain my response or choice.
However, when I hear a lie or read a lie, I lose my freaking mind.
In any case, I think explaining *other* people’s behaviour, i.e. deciding WE know the reasons for another’s behaviour, is what can lead to chopping them. “You just don’t know x,” for example, or “you always do that because you are so y.” And when we’re on the receiving end, it hurts because it sounds so true.
I’ve found my new roomie constantly is like, well, the landlord must be worried about x, or she’s probably concerned about y, even after he agreed that she has screwed him over. And he seems to react as if I am too emotional. And surely, me swearing suggests as much. But if we had gone with my “too emotional” reaction (to cancel the deal) the first time she pulled this crap, we wouldn’t be having to move now.
I have a lot to learn about assertiveness, but one thing is for sure, the more I get, the less of these messes I’ll have to clean up.
http://tinyurl.com/8qds3q
Wren
“I initially told him I wanted 3 months NC but now I see there’s no point going back to any level of contact.”
Sheesh. Dear oh dear. He sounds like hatchet-man! I agree with you. Flush him down the chipper!
Gosh was I chopped!!
I wore the wrong clothes
I was too thin
Breasts too small
I didn’t know how to drive (yet he would insist I was the driver)
I’d never run a successful business (I am!)
I’d never find a decent man who would put up with me (I have found a lovely man)
My children are heading for jail (age 5 & 7)
I could go on.. All this from a layabout who is overweight and does nothing but watch TV all day every day..and the sad thing is if it wasn’t for his shady behaviour that had me ‘researching’ I might never have found BR and might still be in it because he could be very very lovely (narc)!
Instead I have found myself in the first fully functional loving relationship I have ever been in. Thanks Nat and all others who post
@Wren
What’s the point in telling someone the amount of NC you want? That’s like saying I’m going NC but I am really not that serious about it and we can pick up from where we left off. “Biggest Mistake Ever” From reading your list you need to RUN with no indication of ever looking back.
I think I have been my own worst chopper. I have chopped myself to pieces too often. I have been told I am too self-deprecating, hide my light under a bushel, never blow my own trumpet, bring myself down, and all the rest.
I have recently given this some thought and decided that sometimes I do it so as to make other people feel better about themselves/less insecure about themselves (wtf is that all about!), and sometimes I think because I don’t want to appear arrogant or bossy but actually what I am doing is appearing *not* confident or assertive (which is very different from arrogant and bossy).
I went for a job interview last week. I didn’t get it. My feedback was that I came a close second to five other candidates who reached the interviews, that I did very well but that I kept undermining my own answers and I’ve to stop doing that even if I think my answer is not all that it could be I have *not* to point it out to the panel!(wtf am I all about!). I was told I have to let it be what it is and let the panel decide, as what I had to say was actually quite impressive (I just kept undermining it)
I chopped myself! In an interview for a job where I am supposed to be selling myself, I chopped myself down (wtf?!). And it’s not the first time I’ve done this. It’s been pointed out to me before. Yep, in interview feedback! This time tho’, the very nice woman boss who was giving me my feedback, by telephone, really took the time to explain to me exactly and precisely what I had done and why I should not and need not be doing it. Finally, the penny dropped. So, I have made the most solemn promise to myself which I intend to keep till the day I die: I will never, ever bad mouth myself ever again. Not a word. Not a syllable. No more self-chopping. I’ll leave that to other people (who I will duly ignore!)
A friend I had about ten years ago said to me once (and I wished I’d taken her more seriously): ‘why do you always bring yourself down? You shouldn’t do that because there’ll be plenty of other folk out there willing enough to do it for you.’
It strikes me that all these choppers I’m reading about on this thread are those other folk. Eeeek. These people are very bad news indeed. We need to have a much bigger message – the one we are telling ourselves, loudly.
Wow, a good lesson for all of us in that. Sorry you didn’t get the job, Fearless, but I’m glad the woman gave you feedback that you have found so transformative.
Thanks Mags! Hope the landlord situation gets sorted soon; sorry to hear you’re having to deal with this crap already in your new place. All the best! Hang in there – you’ve done so well already.
yeah, fearless, i’m a self-chopper too – both to ward off criticism and to make others more comfortable. screw that. if we want to make someone comfortable, we just make them feel good, but not at our own expense.
i’m so sorry you didn’t get the job, but very glad that the boss gently explained it to you. it might be worth losing that job to learn this lesson, and to also get the good feedback that what you had to say was great.
it is difficult and weird to not self-chop, to let, if necessary, a silence fall. i realize i’m terrified of that silence. so i just breathe. let the silence, and the chips, fall where it/they may, and breathe.
cc – thanks.
“it is difficult and weird to not self-chop, to let, if necessary, a silence fall.”
I so get that! Very well put! Yep, let’s just let the silence and the chips fall where they will. No more self-chopping – let it just be what it is. Let someone else fill the silence.
I wanted to come back to this comment because what you’ve shared is invaluable and the subject of a whole other post in itself Fearless. Thank you.
Sometimes we need an experience like this to happen to give us the swift boot up the arse that we need. We have habits of relating and engaging that we don’t even realise that we’re doing. Sometimes on some level we do and then when someone points it out and there is a cost to what we have done, it becomes painfully clear.
This experience was a blessing in disguise. Thank goodness, as the others pointed out, that lady took the time to explain.
From one ex self-chopper to another, I hear you. I am still learning the habit of talking about myself. I don’t chop me (although I’ve had to learn how to listen to myself) but I have been guilty of under representing myself.
Out of this experience will come better experiences and stick to the commitment. Eventually it will be a natural habit.
Sometimes we have to speak up and sometimes we have to stop over editing ourselves and worrying about what we think the other person will think.
What an amazing post! Reading the comments was also a huge wake up call. A “light bulb” moment that I hope will help me process the last person I dated. I’m beginning to see that I was basically chopped from the end of date two, on. And boy could he chop, even double and reverse chop. Near the end, I remember him comparing me to his ex-wife to illustrate why he was beginning to resent me. Then comparing me (unfavorably and almost obsessively) to the “one who got away” eight years earlier, who I suspect he chopped at too.
He thought he could “read people” so well because he was a highly paid, aggressive divorce attorney and “did this” for a living. I still feel water boarded from experiencing all of the put downs, etc.. Even when he ended things via e-mail, he was chopping away, but in a sugar coated way. Closure discussion (at my initiation, but gladly agreed to), even worse.
Two things also come to mind: 1) he was always talking about himself, so he really didn’t get to know me – but was an expert; 2) I must have sensed danger because I really didn’t open up to him. The few personal things I did mention were inappropriately thrown back in my face early on. Or he chopped on others, which told me I would be “chopping conversation” somewhere down the line. I often felt like I was being interviewed, or deposed. Yet I continued to focus on his good qualities, or why I wasn’t good enough, or what I had done wrong for him to lose interest.
One of the reasons the experience has been so difficult to process: I knew he was putting me down, yet I let it continue, didn’t stand up for myself, or walk. At the same time I could see his opinion of me going way down, yet I ignored it, hoping things would turn around.
All that was pre-BR I’m beginning to know myself better now and just need to forgive “ME” and let it all sink in. I have too much good stuff to offer someone who will appreciate and value it. That’s what I need to learn to focus on.
Thank you NML. You are a true gift to the world. x
Swissmiss:
Oh wow! That last exchange between teachable & dancing queen made me realize something: I have a girlfriend who does that: chop, chop, chop. The entire time I was rejecting the MMs love-talk as just a lot of blather, and trying to keep my humor and equilibrium to keep a healthy distance, she was throwing chops at me left, right and center: “You can’t even see when someone loves you!” I would shoot back no, he loves how I make him feel, but he knows almost nothing about me, he certainly cannot love me. On and on it went. “You’re too hard on him him,” “He’s having a rough time,” “You shouldn’t have said that,” blah blah blah. I wonder if any of you experienced this…someone rejecting your reality because they ‘know better’ even when your self-preservation is on the line. If this individual hadn’t had an affair herself, and subsequently left her husband, I never would have shared with her. Good thing I didn’t heed those chops, or someone would be scraping me off the floor.”
I just experienced this same behavior but in the opposite direction. I was about to start dating a man who had recently become a widower and I had “friends” come out of the wood-work to tell me that he was still married (WTH, I saw him leave for his wife’s funeral) and would become abusive to me because he’d been married before. (???) I know realize these “friends” (and, I use the term loosely) were jealous of what he had to offer – sweet, decent, kind, financially well-off.) The friend who used the abusive line on me did it *knowing* that I had just gotten out of a seriously abusive relationship and was a little sensitive about what sort of man to get involved with next. Looking back on it, I can’t believe I let them talk me out of what could have been a perfectly good relationship, but I did, and that’s something I’ll have to learn to live with in years to come.
Selkie — love the food for thought! lol very funny.
I wanted to share that I did read an article on misogynists — men who hate women — and it really sounds like choppers. Misogyny is pretty sinister and I’m sure there are varying degrees of it. I used to date someone who I think is a woman hater and feels like he can put them down to make himself feel better. I wish I could warn other women about him he might date. No one should have to go through what I did.
Natalie – Thank you SO much for this blog post!!! You can count me in among the many others this has spoken so clearly to. I’ve been trying to figure out for years what happened to me in a particular relationship, and this fits exactly. The “chopper” label is perfect – it felt like someone taking an axe to my emotions, to my sense of self and confidence, and hacking them to pieces. Very descriptive, it got right to the heart of things. Your way of describing this, and others in the comments, has helped me move past this experience in a way I never imagined possible. Huge thanks. I couldn’t agree more with what you said in your comment here: “The fact that people here are saying that the post has managed to capture a very specific type of experience (and bearing in mind that other experiences are very common knowledge) is enough.” SO true.
Lucy….
I was in a similar situation. He managed to manipulate my friends and them on his side with his charming relentless manner. He was no successful with a couple of them. He did manage to get my oldest friend who did not stand by me, then tried to act like nothing happened. I have sent her to the curb. I was with him 13 years and he us described to a T in all of these posts and Natalie’s articles. He is an abuser and it damn near killed me.
I am registered for Natalie’s course’s. Finding this website has saved my life.
Jennifer
Jennifer, I’m so sad to hear about what you have experienced but we are definitely on a similar page and I fully appreciate where you are coming from. I’ve found Natalie’s writing so empowering. It reminds me that working out a new me involves clearing out some of the ‘friend’ baggage. One of my former friends turned ugly when she took the side of an abusive boyfriend who hit me, and a man who sexually harassed me. She completely gaslighted me and I have only now worked it out. Some of my other friends did see more of his side but it was more about their own self-esteem issues than about any malice towards me. I doubt they’d recognise that abusive behaviour if it happened to them.
Well I definitely know you feel. What hurts the most is thinking that those men I dated are so narcissistic that they will always have a clear conscience and never feel like they have done anything wrong. They were able to move on swiftly while all the love I gave them only drained me and I never got the affection back. It hurts that only I know how horrible they were. Sometimes I want the world to see past their outward charms and get a sense of what I know.
I hope you are moving on well and find a happy place.
- Lucy
Perhaps I ought clarify. I wasn’t suggesting this site is about NPD or any other disorders. I was just coming from a feminist perspective on language & naming of abuse. This only my opinion, & I’m saying it means I’m right & that anyone is right, but my point were thus (in accordance with my feminist framework of understanding of abuse):
When we call abuse by other names, slang, euphemisms etc we diminish what we are describing & it’s impact upon us as survivors of those experiences (for those who’ve experienced it, like the woman who was left that terrible list). Also, we cannot heal what we don’t or haven’t yet acknowledged. Emotional abuse is incredibly powerful as too, is verbal abuse. Emotional abuse because unlike the bruises of physical abuse, it’s wounds go much deeper to the very core of our self esteem & it’s so terribly difficult to recognise. Verbal abuse is just one of many ‘axes’ used to inflict the wounds of emotional abuse, although it exists also as a seperate entity. In order to recognise either emotional abuse or verbal abuse, you need to first to know what it is. That is, to know what it is called. In trying to understand why one might be feeling & experiencing a whole range of emotions & behaviour in response to the abuse, one first needs to recognised one is in fact being abused, & further, in what way (in this case emotional and or verbal). Once a person realises this critical fact a whole world of healing is available to them, which includes things like understanding the cycle of abuse, trauma bonding, compulsion repetition etc. People will only discover this though if they first learn what they are experiencing i.e abuse.
Thus, for example, we might call a person who puts others down a chopper, but where it occurrs as a pattern of behaviour consistently over time we might refer to it as emotional abuse & the person doing the behaviour, as a perpetrator of abuse.
I know I’m making very fine distictions here but when people start saying things like, ‘I’ve been chopped’ when what they mean is’ ‘I’ve been emotionally abused’ I think we do them a disservice by not pointing them in the right direction.
Like I said we can’t HEAL what we don’t acknowledge. So, if I look at myself in the mirror & say, meh, I got chopped, whatev..it really has not a lot impact. But when I look at myself in the mirror & I say, I am a survivor of emotional abuse & really think about the actions I am responsible for in placing myself in a position for that to happen, it has a whole different meaning.
It’s a small distinction & again only an opinion & not commenting at all narrcissism or whatever. My only concern is that women who have been abused learn to recognise that for what it actually is & not diminish it in any way, because as we all know, the consequences for those subjected to this & stay in these situations, can be horrendous.
Teachable, You’ve been supportive of others on this blog many times. I understand that abuse should not be minimized, and I agree, but no one here is minimizing it when we call it a name you don’t like. I am an advocate for women too, but I do not share the idea that unless I call it emotional or verbal abuse out loud that I cannot comprehend it.
“Like I said we can’t HEAL what we don’t acknowledge. So, if I look at myself in the mirror & say, meh, I got chopped, whatev..it really has not a lot impact.”
I know abuse, I’ve lived it. I recognize it. I didn’t minimize it and say, “meh, whatever” because I didn’t say the words emotional an verbal abuse and name it ‘properly’. To say women are unable to understand it unless they name it with specific words is condescending, and actually really simplifying the process of understanding. Being bossy about how you feel we should express ouselves only makes me feel like your pushing my boundaries and telling me how to speak. It’s not your job to tell women what ‘they mean to say’. We all have our own voice. Your voice counts, but don’t minimize mine because it sounds different than yours.
I’m not saying I’m right or that you NML or anyone else is wrong I meant. I’m just a bit of a stickler about language used to describe abuse of women, that’s all. I’m not disagreeing that some people chop others down. They do. Where it’s a pattern of behaviour though I’m making the point it’s important to indentify this as emotional abuse & name it such, that’s all.
Teachable, thank you for your response. I’m a grown woman of 35 and a number of readers on this thread alone are older than me. I feel somewhat bemused that you would take the tone and attitude that you did under the guise of feminism. Feminism is not about women who think that they know more imposing themselves upon other women. It doesn’t feel better for a woman to do it instead of a man.
Women are able to empower others and empower themselves without having to take a pop at others. We also have our own free will and mind. I don’t like the pervasive attitude in the world at large (not you specifically) that women seem to be too stupid to make up their own mind and to make their own choices. We can’t read, do or see certain things because we might not think what certain others want us to think.
As women we are allowed to have our own thoughts and make our own choices.
It’s not that people here don’t get the points that you and other detractors about the term and comments were making, but in being so focused on the trees instead of the wood, you ended up creating friction for the sake of trying to control people about the use of language.
Here’s the thing that disturbs me about your argument: lies, cheating, being controlling, for example, are all forms of abuse particularly when done repeatedly. Are you now telling me that we cannot call these terms ‘lies’, ‘cheating’ and ‘controlling’ when talking about the specific behaviour?
Let me assure you Teachable – you cannot control me and as you’ve seen, readers will not be silenced. You may be a stickler for language but you’ve got a big task on your hands if you’re going to take to task everyone who doesn’t use the language you want.
ok got it sm. yes I guess the guy I described earlier was a ‘chopper’ in that sense also. he wasn’t emotionally or verbally abusive though as I never allowed it to get that far ie I opted out. perhaps therein i can make peace with this new terminology. a chopper is someone who chops you down but it hasnt yet progressed to a pattern of behaviour fitting the description of emotional abuse. that would certainly describe that guy. i feel a lot better thinking of it this way.
I have read many books and was in horror and disbelief that these behaviors described this man. For 13 years. It started out with him being moody, sulking, not wanting to participate. He would get atagonistic, arguing, and picking apart everything. I was always wrong, something not right, criticizing, jokes at my expense. It was like he was a prosecuting attorney. At times I feel he missed his calling. It moved to belittling me, putting down my profession, humiliating me in public, never knowing when he would make a scene, ruining countless vacations. Oh there were wonderful times too, that’s what made it so confusing. And many times, I had enough and broke up with him, broke off engagement, only to have him cry and plead and work his way back in. Then amazing sex. That always worked. I always felt bad. It felt like he was a charming, hypnotic drug you couldn’t stay away from but made you feel horrible later. He has a big personality and lots of friends. He always wanted to hang out with mine and seemed to corral certain ones with his charm. Always so generous, so helpful with them. He was to me too, when he wanted to or felt he could, but those never included helping with the house. He sat and watched TV as my mother and I pushed furniture and would not lift a finger. A few of my friends he somehow knew he could not sway and manipulate.
He kept tabs on me, angry when I did not answer the phone when out with a girlfriend, making me feel offbalance, insecure, and unhappy before I had to make a conference presentation somewhere with a cold aloof attitude. When I reconnected with a friend I had not seen in 15 years, who I knew since I was five, he manipulated her enough so that she betrayed me. She acted like nothing happened and he didnt say anything. A true loyal friend told me he tried it with her and what he said to her. I immediately knew who he manipulated. When I called him on it he got very angry. I stopped talking to my oldest friend after he did that. I remembered how she was in 7th grade and nothing really changed. But He took away my oldest friend, someone 5 minutes away I could have coffee or shop with. Gone. He knew what he did. He found nothing wrong with it. He is cruel.
I went to counseling with him with 4 different counselors over the 13 years. They said to me, this person is an abuser, has a personality disorder and is not going to be helped, meds dont help this. The last year when he got progressively angrier, I got him to see a different therapist for other meds and told her everything. He screamed in her office, Im furious, I dont think I want to see her again! He conveniently forgets things and rewrites history. He cant remember saying and doing things.
Once when he drove, he got angry when I said please let me have my own friends, dont commandeer them like you do, you have so many of your own. He got furious and pounded his fist into his window about 20 times, waited a minute, then did it again.
I wrote countless letters over the years, telling him to stop. That he needed help. I informed his parents, who couldnt be bothered. I let his doctors know. I told the couples counselor I saw 4 times before he hacked into my computer and email accounts. After he did that, I refused to go any more.
He is controlling, manipulative and belittling. He would talk in a way to me on the phone that was condescending and I knew his friends were listening to it. I never knew how he would act from one hour to the next. Everyone sees him as generous kind, loving. he drops everything to help his friends. I always felt I was just one of the crowd when out with them.
Yes, he is a chopper. He is all of the behaviors discussed on this website. He has a pattern, it is systematic, and frequent. He is an emotional abuser, a verbal abuser, extremely intelligent, highly communicative, charming, political, manipulative and seductive. He knew me so well, I felt understood, loved and safe. He knew every button to push in a good way. And in a bad way. He could take it all away with a look, a glare, a snarl. And he was the injured one, wounded and hurt. All about him. He never thought he did anything wrong with how he treated or talked to me.
And even in a hospital bed post op when I visited him, he still controlled, still hurt.
This site describes in detail and gives a name to every facet and behavior that these people do, so that we can spot it readily. I have read a lot of sites on emotional and verbal abuse, and yes reading those, I knew intellectually what it was but it was still at arms length somehow. After reading Nat’s articles, I recognize every thing up close and in context with examples of the feeling I get in reaction to the behavior. It has been invaluable.
I have a long road ahead. I miss many of the good times and places and things we did. I have to stop intrusive thoughts and pining for what was, because it wasnt. I have to feel better about myself, increase self esteem after all this chipping and chopping, and take care of myself for a change. I believe I can get there with this site, her course, and the collective wisdom here. I hope I get to “chat” with many of you on these boards. I have never been in such emotional pain in my personal life. But I have a lot to be thankful for. I have a successful career, my house I grew up in, a few very loyal friends, I still have my mom, and I’m here.
Jennifer
“This site describes in detail and gives a name to every facet and behavior that these people do, so that we can spot it readily. [...]. After reading Nat’s articles, I recognize every thing up close and in context with examples of the feeling I get in reaction to the behavior. It has been invaluable.”
This.
Be strong Jennifer: I’m sending you positive energy from here. You’ll make it.
First of all, I absolutely love this site. With so many messages I doubt Natalie will read mine, but I’m gonna write it anyway: thank you. No more psychologists, no more psychiatrists that don’t even seem to know what a manipulative relationship is but blame me, the object of manipulation, thus bringing me down once more, in a spiral of guilt and shame.
My ex is a bad person. He is cruel, that’s it. My personality and my history lead me to date such a person, fall in love, be (almost) destroyed by him. Yet I’m grateful it happened, because my life 2 years ago was spiralling downwards, as I was surrounded by people who didn’t love me, didn’t appreciate me, didn’t even like me, alas!
It’s never only a man, one man, one relationship. If you are involved with a man who is a chopper, well, look around because there’s a big chance your best friend, your boss, your colleagues, you relatives treat you in the exact same way. May be they are more cautios but the aggressivity is there. You are letting them break you, tear your very soul apart.
That’s why what Natalie writes about taking the big step to avoid relationships for a while and concentrate on ourselves is SO vital.
Sick love stories are only a place to hide, they are the chain that binds you to your self-destruction. Set free, because there’s no cage, it’s just in your mind, there’s no fog, that’s just our fear to be in charge of our destiny. And we fear it because somebody, long ago, told us “you are not good enough!” –> well, it’s a lie.
They can chop us because we are not conscious of our value, our strength, our role in our own lives. Constantly expecting validation from “them”, we are letting “them” decided wether we are “worth it” or not, we are condemning ourselves to failure.
I had it all, all I had ever dreamed of, and he manipulated me into thinking it was worth nothing. This is not love, even though it might be soothing to think it was: those men are not capable of true love. Love for them is to own, to rule upon, to dominate.
So girls, let’s be the ones who chop for once, let’s cut them off from our lives and put ourselves on the throne, in the golden room, in the safest place inside our hearts, instead of treating ourselves like beggars or thieves or beasts who can only be liberated by the charming prince on his white horse.
Well said!! Thank you for that!
And it´s true, this year I´ve opened my eyes not only to an EUM´s “romance” manipulations but also to so called friends who have been intent on using me to feel better about themselves. Having erased them from my life, I sometimes feel quite alone – but not lonely.
I am slowly getting to know new people who are so much better for me because they never judge me. I try to convince myself that once I get the other, destructive relationships out of my system I´ll have room for good ones to enter.
Love your comment, Lila. Very wise.
They are called narcissists and being married to one(thankfully I’m divorced now) has cost me thousands of dollars in therapy to fix what he did to me. Please, don’t be afraid to seek help from these people!!!
Sheesh Natalie based on the intensity of the responses, I think you’ve struck a chord with your description of the emotionally/verbally abusive chopper. As I previously mentioned, I’ve read numerous books on the subject but your description and the comments should be published…with the permission of course. I awoke all night with nightmares.
The common thread with regards to emotionally/verbally abusive choppers is that it doesn’t seem real. As I read the list of alleged wrongdoings from the comments, I re-visited the list of things I was accused of doing wrong including:
1) Walking my dog the wrong way (there is a right way to walk a dog?); 2) Feeding my daughter white rice instead of brown rice; 3) Not requiring my daughter to help decorate the x-mas tree. Then when when she acquiesced, she decorated it the wrong way (there’s a right way to decorate an x-mas tree?; 4) Not being strict enough with my daughter as well as being too strict; 5) Providing test dates and topics on my syllabus-supposedly the right way to teach is just go with the flow and talk about whatever you want and give a test whenever; 6) Not eating a healthy diet, despite the fact his fav was french fries and beer. I got chopped hard for enjoying his favorite with him; 7) Running isn’t healthy, the only healthy form of exercise is biking. The flipping list was endless, inconsistent, and could change at a moment’s notice. Nobody in their right mind could believe it. Not even me and I wasn’t in my right mind. While we were “dating” there was NOT one clue as to his pathology. NOT ONE. Swear to god. The minute I agreed to being a couple, this insidious shit started to surface. It was so surreal, I couldn’t believe it. Nobody says this stuff that is so blatantly untrue. While my conscious rational mind knew something was way, way wrong, my emotional side kept hoping I’d convince him. OH GOD NO. Emotional/verbal choppers are not redeemable. That’s what my nightmares were about, saving hung little girls…yikes.
But…after a long night of nightmares which may have assisted in working through residual issues regarding the ex-Chopper, I awoke to a warm beautiful morning and had a wonderful day. I taught my classes, according to the topics listed on the syllabus. I’ve met a wonderful new girlfriend from the gym and we went out for happy hour. My daughter and I are going shopping for a new couch this weekend. Now, tell me this isn’t how life should be! I’m so grateful Natalie. Of course, this is how life should be, calm, peaceful, authentic, and honest. Today was just a really, really good happy day. I enjoyed every moment and was conscious of enjoying every moment. I think, with your assistance, I may be emerging out of that darkness. Thank you certainly doesn’t cover it.
Jaysus how awful to be having nightmares but it’s true – it was your mind processing in your sleep and having a cleanse. You’re chopping him out of your mind and your system. Big hugs for a better sleep today and jealous-o-clock over your sofa shopping.
“There’s a right way to walk a dog?” I’m reminded of a friend of mine who was in the Navy. He had to complete some forms for a senior officer whom he worked for. He completed the forms, clipped them together with a paper clip, and turned them in — only to get an angry tirade from the officer.
Apparently, there is a right way to clip papers together. You know the two loops in a paper clip? The smaller one has to be facing up.
HOW do these people come up with these things? There’s NOTHING too silly or insignificant for them to chop someone about!
I felt sympathy for the people who had to work for this officer…but can you imagine being this guy’s wife (or son or daughter)?
Not sure that this is really on topic but I really need some support that I made the right decision.
I just broke up officially with my EUM. In the beginning of the relationship he exhibited all the classic behaviors of an EUM, which including one particularly horrible period where we were ‘kind of’ living together (he was there during the week for work, went back to his mother on weekends) where he became a hardcore chopper. I moved to another city, he turned back into Mr Wonderful – he didn’t really turn back into an asshole except for a few incidents but he kept me a secret from his friends and family and except for one or two occasions, refused to meet mine. I’ve been trying to break up with him for the last month and finally it got through to him last night and we made it official. I keep thinking of all the good times and wondering if I made a mistake – but we clearly don’t want the same things, I want a guy that will introduce me to his friends and family and eventually move in together. He says I’m too impatient, that I need to give him time (we’ve been together 18 months). Our age difference of 30 years is supposedly to blame so that’s why I was understanding at the beginning but after nearly two years I think it’s just an excuse, hence the decision to break. He feels like it’s coming out of the blue and accuses me of wanting to meet someone else, he just cannot understand that the reasons I’m telling him could be the truth.
Intellectually I know it’s the right decision, but my sentiments are confusing me. My gut is silent on this one….help!!
kitty-
omg….really, no thought is required on this guy.
how should you run away from him? let me count the ways:
- he’s a chopper – EJECT
- there’s a 30-year age difference (i don’t even want to know who is older) – EJECT
- he lives/d with his mother – EJECT
- you’re a secret and he doesn’t want to be in your life in any real way – EJECT
- he sounds like an asshole who doesn’t seem to give a crap about you, so what “good times” could there really have been?? – EJECT
- he doesn’t respect you/your point of view – EJECT
- he ALWAYS, and always WILL, have an excuse to not be in a relationship with you – EJECT
- i can discern no reason why you would ever want to be with this guy – EJECT
KITTY! you don’t need to explain anything to him! you don’t need him to agree with you! your opinion is more than enough!
just go NC. and i mean NO. CONTACT. he’s an ass. you deserve better. most especially from yourself! what the hell?!?!?
Thanks CC. Well, there were a lot of good times, although to be honest it was always weekends and trips away, so limited time basically. Anyone can be a great boyfriend for a weekend or a holiday. He would bring me roses every time, take me to great restaurants etc, the sex was great and he helped me out financially when I was jobless for three months and helped me move across the country. I discovered a lot of different places and different things with him. So, this is why it’s so hard to let go. But yes, he’s lived with his mother for the last 6 years or so (argh). I just received an email today from him. One of the things that put me over the edge and deciding to break up was his refusal to go to a good friend’s wedding of mine. He cannot understand the reason why this would upset me. He wrote “this problem of your friend’s wedding is a strong symbol for you. You need to understand what is behind that. Why would you be ashamed that your boyfriend, that no one knows, wouldn’t be there with you? Of course it’s a way to place yourself in relation to her, you feel inferieur because you are alone, less loved? Isn’t it a bit of jealousy or pride, or show?
Maybe one day you will lose this friend (I hope not), maybe you will have less esteem for her. What value then has this ‘symbolic absence’ at her wedding on our relationship today?”. Again, a wake up call. How many times do I need to confirm he’s an asshole before I forget the nice times and good qualities? I’m so mad at myself right now.
Kitty,
Sheesh – what a lot of bollocks. What part of “being a couple” do these guys not flippin’ get?!
It’s not “symbolic” absence, it’s just plain absence. It’s about his absence in his relationship with *you* not in your relationship with your friend.
This guys sounds like a tool. His stupid email makes me angry for you! Flush.
Dear Kitty,
Wow. OMG. That is triple A grade, gold medal bullshit. The expression ‘you couldn’t make it up’ is all I can think of. It’s almost wondrous in the pure, manipulative perfection of the shaming, blaming and twisting of reality. I want to laugh (shock and horror). You will laugh at this one day though, properly and with relief I imagine, when you have some distance from the ridiculous, inadequate, posturing, shameless ego that dumps it’s cargo of internal crap on you. Sorry, I have been in serious denial of reality myself for a long time so maybe I am hyper sensitive now. But really, WTF. I have read thousands of comments on this blog, with gratitude for the sharing, intelligence and honesty which has helped me back to my life, basically. But the sheer evil of that manipulative message has stunned me. Glad you’re ok, and take care, “well out of it” is all I can say to you.
Thank you Fearless, CC and Matilda – I’m going to print out your comments and stick them by the phone. Thanks for your support xox
kitty-
waltzing matilda nailed it, so i have one more
- shoots grade A, gold medal bullshit therapy speak from hell at you for wanting him at a wedding at which no one knows he exists because HE made YOU a secret = pure evil = EJECT
oh, man, kitty. he’s really pure bastard. but no one is 100% bad…ok, hitler, pol pot and idi amin were 100% bad, but there are few of those.
don’t be mad at you and don’t be confused by his good qualities (i should be writing this to myself) – just because he bought you flowers doesn’t mean he’s not an utter AC. seriously – do not be mad at you. don’t perpetuate the abuse by abusing yourself inside your head.
“you need to understand what is behind that”
Patronizing faux-”helpful” therapy-speak from hell.
The impact on “our relationship today” is that he’s not showing up for “our relationship today”; instead he’s psychoanalyzing you have deep insecurities because you dare to point out he’s not showing up for “our relationship today.” The relationship consists of complete mind-effery.
SO GLAD YOU BROKE UP WITH HIM
All he wants is for you to agree with his deep insights and sign up for more non-relationship tomorrow, the next day, and so on until he finds someone else to torture.
Thank you NML and readers/survivors
. Its really getting better after day 20. I still have ups and downs, yesterday I cried, But overall I believe I overcame the most terrible time of my life.
I had just written a really long comment and wanted to post but lost it dunno what I clicked on. Arghh Nevermind.
I just wanted to thank you all, I have survived the worst. This is just to check in and say hi and send you my best wishes. Your good advice saw me through the first days, the really cruel ones. Be brave and keep your head up, act like a lady, and by no means allow any more chopping or abuse, no matter how much you endured so far.
Im In week 5 NC and started to see the light
Ill keep posting, there are so many feelings Im experiencing, sometimes I feel im going crazy if I dont share them with someone.
Cheers to all
Im sorry that you or anyone else has had such a reaction to what I shared NML. I said very clearly I was expressing only an opinion, & that it didnt mean I was right & others were wrong. I dont feel the I need judge other ppls langauge. I was just having a conversation about the introduction of a new term & what *I* thought about it, against a certain backdrop of training (in my case a feminist perspective of violence against women). What I stated previously about that is all pretty standard basic stuff. Not anything I’m making up or based my own thinking, or theories. I wish it was! To have been so insightful to realise such things as original thought would be quite a coup. I dont disagree with any readers either. This is not a ‘hot’ topic for me in the sense that I feel any emotional attachment to it any way. I stated what feminist theory on VAW says & that’s pretty much it. I happen to agrre with the theory, so that part is my opinion. I’m more than adult enough to understand ppl have diff views & thoughts on things. That’s what makes life interesting. I merely was pointing out something I felt important. That is, naming abuse as abuse. As for lies being abuse (sorry dont recall the other things you mentioned), I would say that lying is a form a deception, & deception is dishonesty & dishonesty can indeed be one feature of abuse, but neccessarily, even as a pattern of behaviour. It is possible for example to be a habitual liar, without being emotionally &/or verbally abusive. Not sure if that helps anyone. Cheers.
You said earlier in the thread,
“Please can we refer to these men as what they ARE ie abusers & not choppers? It’s incredibly important that women recognise when they are being abused & name it for what it is. Ta.”
Now you say,
“I said very clearly I was expressing only an opinion, & that it didnt mean I was right & others were wrong. I dont feel the I need judge other ppls langauge.”
I’m not trying to attack you Teachable but, you did take a tone with us at how we express ourselves. And it wasn’t ‘merely’ an opinion but asking us to please change the way we do it as you clearly stated. We all had “such a reaction” to what you said, not what you’re trying to say now. Now, I’m letting it go.
p.s. You said, “sm what you’re you describe about neediness is not ‘chopping’. It’s emotional abuse”
That is policing our language. Clear and simple. Okay, now I really am letting it go. I’ve said my peace.
Not trying to re-ignite the language topic but I wanted to say one thing only:
What is really effective about Nat’s turn of phrase, language and descriptions of our bad relationship experiences is that it helps us to see what is really going on. It enlightens, it illuminates – by showing, not by telling. That’s why it works. Probably (maybe ironically) much more so than simply telling us, “now ladies, this here is what is called emotional abuse”. I for one was so stuck in the fog of EUM crap that I wouldn’t have believed her. I do now! It works. Thank god something does.
And just to return to topic as NML rightly point’s out in this post, ppl who attack the self esteem of others, often have no qualms whatsoever in doing so. At least that was the case with my ‘chopper’ (referred to previously) & made the rediculousness of his comments stick out like dogs gonads! LOL
“Not eating a healthy diet, despite the fact his fav was french fries and beer. I got chopped hard for enjoying his favorite with him;”
I was the victim of this one, too, runnergirl. My ex frequently told me he ate all of his food raw although I frequently saw him eating fast food and pizza. I realize, now, that his remarks were a flimsy attempt to control my own eating habits. Thank God I didn’t listen to him. He frequently bragged that his ex-wife was a size zero-zero; I’m a gorgeous, curvy girl (not fat at all; I’m 108 lbs, 4’10″ tall). I wonder, now, if he didn’t give her an eating disorder with all his nagging. I saw a picture of her once and she’s a stick thin, drop-dead gorgeous red-head, yet I’m sure he found things to criticize about her, too. He should thank his lucky stars she even agreed to marry him; he’s not exactly model material his own self. Even when I whipped up vegan meals, my ex couldn’t bring himself to say something nice or even vaguely complimentary. It was raw food or nothing for him.
I just want to say this blog and this article and the NC article have all been so helpful and timely for me. Thank you NML and thanks to the ladies on here posting their experiences. I don’t feel so alone. I had began NC and was on week 2 when the chopper came a texting. I now start over and I’m on day 3. It’s hard but I can see why it’s so critical. He was devastatingly cruel and stealing my heart. Now I move on…I wish all of you peace as you get through this stuff.
I actually meant to say he was devastatingly cruel AFTER stealing my heart
The supervisor at my last job actually asked me to dress for him: “I need to rate you on your appearance.” And when I asked to transfer to a more demanding shift, he told me “You wouldn’t even know when they {meaning the children I’d be working with” were trying to manipulate you.” I have a Bachelor’s degree and almost that in journalism and psychology credits from the extension school of a very prestigious university (more education than he can shake a stick at). I suspect he said what he did because he was jealous of an office flirtation I was carrying on with someone on the other shift, although I asked to transfer for health reasons. I’m wondering, Natalie, if you can write a post on men being rude to girls they like. (I know that’s what I was dealing with here.) And PUA – I find many of the PUA techniques – negs, insults, etc. to be flat-out abusive and I’ve had to deal with too many people pulling these lines on me – not just potential boyfriends, but people in positions of authority as well. My last landlord spent the entire three months of my tenancy insulting my housekeeping, my professional position, and everything else he could think of. I know he was attracted to me (he wasn’t exactly subtle). He tried to make me jealous of his long-term girlfriend, saying his girlfriend hated my housekeeping as well. He was flat-out stalking me at one point and kept coming over to make surprise “inspections” of my property (one time he actually opened my cupboards to examine the contents and I’ve caught him creeping around inside my house when he thought I was elsewhere.) And he acted shocked – SHOCKED – when I took him up on his threats to evict me without probable cause. I know his eviction notice was il-legit because he’s spent the last two weeks literally *begging* me to stay at the property. (As *if* I would put up with his abhorrent behavior). My question is, how do I separate the genuinely abusive ones from nice guys with bad game? I’ve gotten so used to men being *horrid* to me for their own amusement that I can’t separate the abuse from gentle teasing anymore.
Freedom
“I’ve gotten so used to men being *horrid* to me for their own amusement that I can’t separate the abuse from gentle teasing anymore.”
I know what you mean. I have a feeling though that there are no good reasons for anyone to be ‘gently teasing’ another person. I suspect there is always something more insidious going on behind what some folk would like to call their ‘gentle teasing’(as if it’s harmless – I’m not sure that it is, or that’s it’s even intended to be). Maybe it’s the same as a “gentle chopping”! (it’s easy for people to say, ‘oh I was only teasing’ after they have tried to insult us and it backfired on them). So I’m not sure you/we really need to make a distinction. Trust your gut. If it makes you feel bad, don’t trust it.
This is a perfect description of my ex. Within the first month of us being together (after a brief honeymoon phase of Future Faking/Fast Forwarding), he would start picking on me for the smallest things. Really, the things he would bring up/criticise were so trivial that there was no way I could predict what he would criticise next, and this made me quite nervous. For example:
- I was a bad story-teller – “there is something about your timing, and you get to the point way too quickly”
- I had a “snobbish” way of speaking
- My facial expressions sometimes made me look insecure
- We had little in common, he said, which made me “ask him the same kind of questions over and over”
- I had a tendency of asking people “insignificant” questions
- It seemed like I wanted to accommodate him, i.e. please him (excessively), and that “took the excitement out of the relationship”
Anyway, this kind of nit-picking made me very, very insecure. At the same time, I knew that he disliked me being insecure, which made for a vicious cycle. Nothing was ever his fault, of course, or his responsibility; I was always the one to blame, and I was often at fault.
The break-up was infuriating – after a couple of weeks of him being cold and remote towards me, I finally initiated a conversation in which he said that he did not see any future for the two of us. “I have said hurtful things to you, and I’ve been ignoring you – that is because I haven’t identified myself with this relationship,” he said. As if “not identifying yourself with a relationship” makes it OK to hurt your partner or behave coldly for two weeks straight.
Needless to say, I am far better off without him. This website, as well as Nat’s e-book (Mr Unavailable & The Fallback Girl), has helped me enormously, and I still read this blog on a regular basis. I’m VERY grateful for the insightful articles on this blog, and they have really contributed to making me a stronger person. Thank you, Natalie
What a complete bastard. He sounds awful. So glad for you you gave him the chop! X
Thank you
I am also happy that he’s out of my life. Now, I almost feel a bit sorry for him, too – in fact, HE is the one who’s painfully insecure, not me. Happy, healthy, emotionally balanced and well-adjusted individuals generally do not feel the need to put others down; while I got away from him and his issues, HE’ll still have a lot of work to do.
It’s interesting how these “choppers” seem to deal with their own emotional pain and personal issues by taking them out on others. I once heard the term “predatory self-esteem” – that is, in my opinion, what these people have. Which is too bad – not for us, eventually, but for them.
Thank you! Straight down the line. Such apt and helpful info. These kind of situations are so confusing and sometimes dangerous… pointers like this can (literally) be a lifesaver. Excellent article. ..
Thank you for writing these things because my ex did the same thing, not accompanying me to events and did not get that partners do this and you do things as a couple. The few times he went to anything of mine, he embarrassed me there. Sulking, not participating, acting angry. Teaching me a lesson. I never asked him to go to an event like that again. For 10 years. When I told or wrote him it was unacceptable, he would either cry or turn on the charm, pull me back in. Flowers. Sex. I was so humiliated by his cold attitude followed by wonderful times when all was fine and I wondered how long it would last before the shoe drops.
And he still blames me. I am caring for less and less, but I have so much pain.
I am so glad I’m here. Hearing your stories. You think you are so alone. I didn’t want people to see how he might act. I should have taken him repeatedly to all my friends so that more could see and say something.
He scared my mother. I guess that wasn’t enough.
lol i have had such a laugh reading this posting and everyone’s comments. Just who do these males think they are? My Narcissist/Sociopath ex (only found out by reading up on them that he is one after we finished), told me my neck was starting to get wrinkly, i had a widow’s hump appearing on the back of my neck, i had dry skin on one of my elbows (because i happen to lean on it i add here), but it would take me all day to list all of the things he eventually turned out to be, but to add a few – calculating, manipulative, callous, deceitful, lacking in empathy, full of himself, devious, a cheating scumbag. You get the drift. He loved our sex life but just before he walked away from me he started withholding himself from me. I believe it was his sick way of punishing me for things his small mind made up i had done.
However, thank goodness i am well free of him and my no contact is forever, although i pity the poor females he may have in the future – i hope he rots in hell!
Oh wow! I have just got rid of my Chopper after 5 years. Everything about him was absolutely classic as Natalie has stated here. I had previously dumped this guy about 4 times and let him back in every time with his promises and sweet, sweet behaviour – and everytime it went back to the verbal abuse, lying through his back teeth, playing the victim etc, etc, etc.
The straw that broke this camel’s back was when I was accused of having sex with other men when I was out with my girl friends having lunch one day.
I just sat there and went into a slow burn that turned into a raging fire and that was it – I had to get rid of this idiot, once and for all. So I did.
Message for Jo:
Your guy sounds like a narcissist to me and if he is you are well rid of him believe me, they just love to put you on a pedestal then shoot you down when you least expect it. They are mean, nasty, spiteful, selfish and cruel, i believe they are born that way, or should i say they were ‘invented’ that way.
My ex told me one night someone had said he had a ‘young face’, my reply was ‘yeah right, were they on their way to Specsavers Opticians to get their eyes tested! He was not impressed, but after all of the insults i endured it was karma……
Thanks for your reply! Yes, that thought has crossed my mind, too. However, I think that for my ex, it’s more a matter of being horribly insecure, emotionally immature and in constant need of reassurance. For instance, for as long as we were together, he would tell me about all the other girls who hit on him/fancied him/blushed when he was around/tried to touch him, etc.. These included, among others, the girl working in our local grocery store; a lot of his female colleagues; his friends’ girlfriends… He even thought a friend of mine was flirting with him – while I was sitting next to him! (Oddly enough, though, I did not notice anything particular about my friend’s behaviour; she was joking with him and being friendly, but that was about it. Besides… she is one of my best friends! Obviously, she wouldn’t have flirted with him in front of me!)
If a guy needs to brag about getting attention from *other* girls while he’s with you, that’s saying something… about him and his maladjusted ego.
“My ex told me one night someone had said he had a ‘young face’, my reply was ‘yeah right, were they on their way to Specsavers Opticians to get their eyes tested! He was not impressed, but after all of the insults i endured it was karma” – haha, WAY TO GO!
The thing is, I didn’t want to insult my ex because I sensed how fragile his ego truly was. He is hypersensitive to criticism – one of the many paradoxes surrounding these choppers, I believe.
However, at the end of the day, I try to have a level of compassion for my ex. Not as an excuse for his behaviour, mind you, but simply because I think that he will have a long way to go on his road to becoming happy with himself – and others.
I’m becoming an old grizzled BR gal. This chopper/abusive post and thread still has me reeling, although the nightmares have subsided. Jennifer, Paula, Madame Butterfly, JoNorwway, and everybody else, yeah…it so isn’t about you. That has been the most difficult thing for me to grasp. Maybe I coulda, shoulda, done something differently. Nope. I’ve started online dating (not recommended by me) perfect strangers and their insecurities, issues, unresolved baggage come to the surface ASAP. Always, always remember: YOU HAVE A CHOICE. These abusive jokemos are not the last chance saloon and we are not that desperate. The flush handle is my best friend. Flush these abusive choppers. My former abusive chopper looks like shit warmed over. Stringy, greasy, strands of gray hair, 50 lbs over-weight, diabetic, on the verge of a heart attack or a stroke. I’m in total shape, almost have a 6 pack of abs, and I let this slovenly dweeb on the verge of death tear me down? Come on ladies. Let’s ditch these total dweebs. I got one hanging on now that I’ve blocked. They own up or they get off. It’s simple. There are NO second chances with a AC/EUM.
This is a fantastic post Nat. I like the name chopper cause it gives a really visual description of what these people do to you.
Thank Truth. I can’t figure out why I stay. This is a man who insists I am easy to replace. We even had a conversation about it. He said yes you are. I said no I’m not. We were going back and forth like 2year olds. I am constantly getting critisisim…how I dress, how I spend the money I work for, how I think, what I say and on and on. Stayed at his house one night and got criticized for the shopping bag I threw a pair of jeans into! I am twisting myself into a pretzel trying to please the unpleasable. Praying for the strength to scrape together what’s left of my self esteem and walk away. I need to get back to when I was confident, optimistic and had the will to live.
Jennifer,
I have had ALL your identical experiences. My ex is CHARMING, charismatic, educated, intuitive, MANIPULATIVE, funny, life of the party, he seems to understand me and anyone he tries (when it makes him look good or he stands to receive something from it). I thought I found the man of my dreams, he literally is the most intoxicating human being I have ever met. My own mother went out of her way to tell me that she very clearly was sure he loved me. He did, he seriously worshipped/worships me, but there is another side that didn’t show in the beginning. In public, he is the man every woman would want to marry, but at home he is different. His mood and level of contentment would determine what I would receive but the chopping definetely is at the core of his being. This man has chopped me about loving my dead husband. He was a friend of my husband and he has also informed me of painful dicretions my husband committed (unbenounced to me) during my marriage when he was alive. He has tortured me for my past, for loving my child, not to mention the endless no win/trick bag situations he put me in. Changing the rules, the rules that NEVER apply to him. My ex chopper has shamed me for every single positive thing I do and have in my life, he has belittled me or makes repeated passive aggressive remarks to shame me for the exact same values that led him to be attracted to me. The key point is that this abuse doesn’t start until you are hooked. This type of person then confuses you with all the psychological manipulation and you are struggling to get back to how it “use to be” and deathly clinging to find your boundaries. Mix this with sleep deprivation and stress and it is TOXIC PAIN. HE TRANSFERRED ALL OF HIS PAIN ONTO ME, and I let him. I cannot even tell you the injury he has caused my esteem…I mean, that I have ALLOWED him to cause. There is no boundary to the things this man has stooped to say or use against me. This man (chopper) came into my life, inventoried every strength and weakness I have and then literally pushed the buttons to order up whatever whim or wish he had for the day. It was whatever HE needed. He continually plays the victim, reinvents realty, diminishes, distorts and globalizes his behavior as trivial or not what I believed it to be. He also became physically violent towards me, threatening to hurt himself and even at one point told me not to come to his funeral and don’t fake that I care for the sake of his parents. My soul is shaken, I have never been so off kilter in my life. I started educating myself over a year ago and I am quite positive this man has Borderline Personality Disorder. He literally has sucked the life out of me in order to supply himself with a very distorted and sick sense of life. The most horrific thing of all is to try to comprehend that this behavior and the reasons behind it are even possible, it’s almost unfathomable! I have also become a walking, talking volume of stored information on diagnosing this type of behavior because once you understand the capacity of the brain to distort things, it’s beyond maddening. Please don’t fear, I recognize that I have to be responsible for me and that focusing on his problems and his behavior is just poor boundaries for myself and me not wanting to focus on myself. I am trying to do this, one day at a time. My ex still contacts me and is able to suck me in at times and just when I think I’m on solid ground, I find a whole I haven’t covered and allow contact. This is by far the most insane thing I have ever lived through in my life. I have aged 5 years in 3, I have spent countless hours trying to fight, argue my point, becoming so nuerotic to dissect all of his distortions and games to prove a point..but what point? Fact is, I wouldn’t go down without a fight, but all along I was only fighting myself and my demeans that he literally extorted to destroy me with. Oh and the nightmares Runnergirl, yes I understand! I began to suffer a great amount of somatic symptoms from the stress. I literally have been in a fog, ironically, some people coin the acronym ‘FOG’, Fear, obligation and guilt. That is EXACTLY what this man did to me, he made me fear, feel obligated and he guilted me RELENTLESSLY! Natalie, thank you for making sense of it all for us. I understood the clinical part, but you helped me to also realize the boundaries, the importance of listening to yourself and those feelings, the understanding when you are starting to compromise your values and the way your body tries to tell you, the need for boundaries in our lives, and most importantly how to evaluate our self esteem and it’s importance in being healthy woman. I have learned so much and I so appreciate that you put it all in such real terms that I can digest. I love your analagies! My closing point is this, the type of person I described is very dangerous and if you ever come across one and love them…when you do get away…remember the gift. Had I never been so abused and deceived, I would have likely never realized how broken I am. God bless you all.
I too have been a pretzel! There is nothing, and I mean NOTHING that you can do to change his diabolical behaviour as HE doesn’t want to change as he thinks he is doing nothing wrong. You could be doing backward flips, double somersaults worthy of an olympic challenge and you will get the same result from him.YOU have to change, there comes a time when you just have to say NO MORE, THATS IT I’M DONE and really mean it. If you dont I predict that this will result in such stress for you that not only does it cause emotional distress but actual physical distress. I have been there,its exrtremely difficult but you have to decide No Contact and focus entirely on rebuilding yourself. Whatever negative throwbacks he gives you it does not matter a blimp cos you know that you are worth more. Who gave King of the Unpleasables the right to dictate to you on how you dress, speak, think, act. He is mean and condescending and needs his ass kicked out the back door.
Mia : I went through the SAME experience. Couldn’t agree more that this type of person is dangerous! The EX he was with, suffered from serious mental issues after being in a relationship with him. (They are still in touch after 10 years even during our relationship) I couldn’t focus for half a year and am still slowly building myself up from the mental damages caused from the relationship!
What’s more dangerous (agree with truth+freedom) is that they don’t see the problem themselves and continue to blame others (potential partners)! Ladies! Don’t let these people govern our boundaries and ways of thinking!
I cannot thank you enough for this – I have sensed and guessed some of the causes for such behaviour, but you put it nicely together and this post made it much clearer to me. I will print this in small print on a piece of paper and put it in my vallet as a reminder, so that whenever I start thinking about him and feel down over our failed relationship, I’ll read this. This might even be the last step, or “the missing link” I need to get over it completely. THANK YOU!
Tell me about it. I was seeing a guy who was so intimidated by my own forwardness (if that’s even a word), security of myself, sexuality (I’m bi) and just who I am in general with my faults and all that he just kept chopping whenever he got the chance. Apparently I’m always shouting or angry bearing in mind this is after he has wound me up or pushed buttons for the sake of drama. I’m too ‘ghetto’ apparently too because I enjoy wearing jogging bottoms (sweatpants) and trainers as I feel comfortable like that. Telling him that the reason why I didn’t go home after a long weekend in Manchester and coming straight to him after my 4 hour train and bus journey is because going home means I won’t be leaving the house as soon as I get comfortable is apparently ‘not nice’. The same night I apparently kissed my teeth at them, no I didn’t. Which resulted in me leaving the room for 2 minutes to think about it before I even respond. Which led to an argument, me leaving and going home and me telling them the next day that they don’t really like me and if that’s the case then I don’t like them either. I don’t need nor want someone who is going to spend all of their time picking on my faults to make me into who they want me to be or who I should be. I mean if you have to change someone then that’s a red flag. It’s not the person for you.
Just like the friend in the post… I still do churn the words over in my head. And that’s because I allowed them to define who I am in order to make themselves feel and look better to their ego or sense of self. I’d rather be around men or women who don’t wish to chop me down at every chance.
I realized after reading all this that im actually a chopper, half-way thru i got all teary-eyed and was in shock because yes i have been with a chopper and everything you mentioned i have been thru with an ex. Its time to stop that cycle and stop being the chopper because at the end of the day it doesnt make me feel any better about myself and its sometimes hard to see the other person try so hard to please me only to get chopped.
Thank You!
Yep. I spent the better part of the last month blaming myself for why the “love of my life” would dump me on the day my dad was getting biopsy results, or, when I was earlier trying to reconcile, exploded and threw paper in my face while dumping me again. Or, in an attempt to talk, told me that I was a “bad bad person” and “ruining my best friend’s life.” Umm…yeah.
Even the most insecure of us, if we have a brain cell or three, steps back eventually and says to one or two of the accusations, “Some of this is just pure and utter malarky; are you kidding me?!”
I was with a man who I loved immensely — and purely — but who I let erode my boundaries. He wouldn’t “let” me have a night off to myself to be alone. My jokes in public were constantly deemed “inappropriate” and worthy of a fight. Everthing I did was under scruitiny and the more I tried to work with him, the more he opted to put me down and make it all about my faults.
I wish him no ill will. I’m sure, in his head, he thinks it’s all justified — all of it. But, when you step back a bit and realize that you fell head over heels for a chopper/assclown, it makes you really question yourself for a bit. Not for all those things they put you down for, most of which were completely untrue — but rather for how you allowed yourself to lose sight of yourself so much that you threw yourself out the window temporarily in the name of love.
No assclown/chopper — or hell, even a wonderful man — is worth allowing someone to let you lose yourself.
Thanks for this site! It’s been an enormous help as I move on.
I am currently in a relationship with someonr who I feel is a chopper. I have never been with someone who could talk to me in such a way. I have always had the mentality that someone with love me for me. Still trying to figure out if that’s true or not. I find my relatioship is ending and im the one still trying to hold on. I am currently staying with her in a different state. I sacrificed all to be with her and I don’t know what to do. I am not one to give up on things especially cause this is an engagement and the mind set of just turning around and leaving is something I feel most people do nowadays. Its why divorse is so high.
I obviously and looking for answers or I wouldnt have come on here reading all of your great testimonies…im lost and hurt and just trying to find whats right
Ryan, good luck to you. It’s hard to diagnose without all the details. If you’re both committed to making it work, perhaps couple’s therapy could help? Even though I am 99% sure my BF is a classic case of assclown/chopper, I’m going to give therapy with him a go. May or may not work but this site has made me realize that, regardless of how it turns out, I’m going to keep my dignity and my boundaries. Wish you all the best!
Baggage Reclaim saved my life. I broke up with an EX last year, and it was through these precious articles that I was able to take a step back and realize that the guy I was with is an ass clown + a Chopper.
I couldn’t agree more with this article. It was truly energy draining during the relationship; I was being criticized everyday, he was stopping me from saying what I’m passionate about (telling me I’m a boring person in my face), being told I was being too “sensitive” and “emotional” while he went to strip clubs and claimed that only his friends went in. He showed zero respect of my boundaries. The Ex was a true chopper to its essence. I was going through a major breakthrough last year, having work exhibits in shows; what happened was that he showed no interest, no support, mentioned a breakup!?
Reading this article really helped me to identify further what a problematic person the Ex is. I allowed a guy to manipulate my thinking process, degrade my values and loose complete respect of myself. It is through Baggage Reclaim that I was able to move on, build myself up and smile.
Sincere Thank you for your wise words NML.
Yes Natalie!!
My thoughts finally articulated! I am celibate till marriage and I live with my parents (early 20′s).
He went from being charming to chewing me out about EVERYTHING from the way I spoke to dismissing every opinion I had.
When a girl who is unsure of her self worth and is inexperienced gets involved with a Chopper who is a seasoned player it screams disaster.
I genuinely sincerely cared about him but when I refused to have sex with him and no amount charm could change my mind more axes came than Edward Scissorhands lol.
Other signs i’ve noticed:
have the cheek to want to be physically affectionate when they’ve been emotionally cold.
when you refuse they ask: oh so you’re scorning me, you think you’re better than me?
controlling attitude
don’t allow you to have opinions. Turn every legitimate complaint you have about them against you
gaslighting you