Over the past few days (and many times before) there has been a lot of talk in the comments about staying friends with your ex, and more importantly, whether you can stay friends with a Mr Unavailable or assclown after you’ve broken up.
I have written on several occasions about being friend’s with your ex for example in can’t we just be friends, and for me it’s like this:
If you are no longer emotionally attached to your ex and have gotten over him and moved on, let’s say 6 months or a year down the line, go ahead and knock yourself out. That is of course if he actually has qualities tha t make him worthy of actually being your friend.
If you want, need, or expect anything from your ex, even if you don’t express it or acknowledge it, you have ulterior motives for wanting to be his friend.
If you want to be his friend in spite of the fact that 1) you were never friends in the first place and/or 2) he treated you poorly in the relationship, I have to ask,
why the hell do you want to be friends with this man?
Now when it comes to Mr Unavailable’s and assclowns there are a number of factors at play:
The relationship is likely to be based on illusions with much betting on potential involved.
There is a lack of commitment and emotional connection.
There is a lack of empathy.
There is a lack of care, concern, and respect.
There has been much managing down of your expectations.
The relationships are on their terms even when they ‘let’ you ‘think that you’re getting your own way.
There’s a whole load of negativity and lack of positivity.
Your needs were not being met.
You have been trained to accept crumbs.
In essence, the relationship is lacking.
And yet, many a woman, many a Fallback Girl or assclown lover, is eager to be friends with their ex. Why?
Well the way you’ll tell it is:
You don’t believe in being mean/horrible/cold/nasty [insert your word of choice].
You don’t want to waste what you had between you both.
You don’t want to seem like you’re not being mature about things.
You still care about him.
You would like to have him in your life.
You think that just because you can’t be lovers doesn’t mean you can’t be friends.
You project how you would feel in the situation and you wouldn’t want him to not be friends with you.
Now hard as this may be for many of you to hear, these are all codewords and phrases for:
I don’t want to let go.
I want to stay emotionally invested.
I’m hoping he’ll change.
I’m hoping that he’ll regret letting me go.
I don’t love me enough.
In reality, if you want to stay friends with your Mr Unavailable or assclown you are inadvertently establishing a new fallback position.
You’ll still be that woman that he thinks he can rely on for an ego stroke, a shag, or a shoulder to lean on…he’ll just believe he can now do it under the guise of friendship.
If you’re still emotionally attached and you end up providing him with either an ego stroke, shoulder to lean on, or sex, or all of them, he gets the fringe benefits without the hassle of you wanting, needing, and expecting from him as if you were in a relationship.
You’re yet again marginalising yourself because you’ve decided to exchange the situation where you were not getting your needs met for ‘friendship’.
This isn’t because you actually want friendship; it’s more that you want to stay in his life in the hope that he will regret letting go of you, finally recognise your value, and validate you and the emotional expenditure that you’ve thrown at him.
Trust me, you’re not staying friends with him because he’s such a great person and again, you are caught up in illusions and betting on potential, because instead of magicking him into a wonderful boyfriend, you have now conjured up a replacement illusion where he will be a good friend that treats you decently. You have no basis for deciding this – you have more of a basis for telling him to take a run and jump!
Assclowns in particular, make lousy boyfriends, lovers, husbands, …and also friends.
All he will see is that you still want to be there and offer the hand of friendship in spite of the fact that he has treated you with low regard.
These guys won’t do the friendship on your terms and the litmus test of this is when you refuse to allow them to talk to you in a sexual manner, use you as a booty call, give them an ego stroke, call you or turn up at will, and poke around in your business. When they can’t get these things, suddenly ‘friendship’ is not so interesting.
At the end of the day, if you still want to be friends with your assclown (and Mr Unavailable’s) when it’s patently clear that you’re not over them and that you haven’t built up your self-esteem, it’s like playing with fire, and we all know that if you play with fire you get burned.
You have to ask yourself this – Are you actually planning to get over your ex and move on?
If you are, you need to rethink your fallback plan and opt out of the friendship because what you want is in contradiction with your actions, and you want to have the best of both worlds, even though he couldn’t even give you the best of one…
Part Two and part three.
Your thoughts?
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{ 106 comments }
I would like some input on this one… can someone please tell me that this is not normal behaviour, or was this a guy that just felt badly for dumping me. So my ex breaks up with me out of nowhere, we had a little spat which suddenly turned in to him screaming at me, with great great rage, that he was sick of me and had been for months. Next day, we work together, he just comes up to me and starts talking to me like nothing has happened, and it’s about personal stuff to do with his stress etc. I of course was nice because I did not want to appear bitter, and wanted to believe we would get back together and he had just lost is momentarily.
Then he called and asked to meet… we go out. He proceed to rip me apart about how awful and terrible I am. Next day opens the day with a friendly joke… this time I just turned and walked away. Called me later that day to ask me some meaningless question and to tell me how amazing I was at my job… I felt powerful momentarily… but then proceeded to be “nice” because I saw a glimmer of hope.
Since then we are no longer working together… he has runs in to me and makes small talk, but that’s it. He doesn’t call, nor do I… I chit chat when I see him about meaningless things and go on my way. I went away on vacation and when he got back, went out of his way to find out how my vacation was, and when I got back… this was not a bump in at work, he sought me out.
Then it goes back to no contact. Does this fit the MO? Or is this just a nice guy who carries guilt for having hurt me? I would have never thought to treat someone the way he did after we broke up. He even winked at me one day and then said he was just trying to be friendly!
Can someone please tell me if this is normal behaviour of men, or the example of an EUM having no understanding of the impact of their actions.
Thanks
NML – you are great! you take very sensitive issues & make them funny. NOT that any of it is funny. But, hey, it sure helps to see it for what it is & get a good laugh. Thanks so much for your insight & humor. You are helping so many.
Dazed and Confused – I’m sorry but I fail to see where there is any carrying of guilt. There’s nothing normal about that behaviour – he sounds like a schizo. I’m not sure how you could write what you did and not see how strange and inappropriate his behaviour is!
Elizabeth – It’s a pleasure to help
I guess because I have no experience with a decent man and what they do when they break up with you. I am used to this strange behaviour and filled with self doubt. So to me… I guess I am quick to blame me and think “no I push men to want to scream at me because I can be difficult.” As I did write it I felt like no, this is not normal… but I just don’t have the experience of a decent person saying I am sorry this is not working out between us in a polite kind way. So I thought maybe sometimes it just gets ugly because emotions are involved.
Thanks for the input NML.
gosh ur so right….. ive realised my ex only wants to be a good friend when looking for an ego stroke or booty call. ive decided to let go finally, no more being friends…. not worth it
Thanks NML for your articles. I do hope you continue writing them forever!!! The hardest part of letting go — of the relationship AND friendship — is that “what could’ve been” aspect….I met with my EUM last night…for the final time. I’m moving across country and thought that “one last talk” would be what I needed. I guess in some ways it was, but today I’ve set myself back a bit. Being “friends” with him will be on his terms, of that I’m sure. It’s not the letting go of the actual relationship — it’s the what could’ve been (or what I THOUGHT could’ve been). Letting go of the dream — illusion — is so difficult.
Dazed,
I was close friends with a man, I was one of his few friends, he called me his best friend, but then I confronted him about something troubling I suspected he did, it turned into an argument, and.. just like you described, he turned on me like nothing I have ever seen in my life, the things he said were almost exactly like what were said you.
He then laid low for a few weeks and came into the store I work at. I ignored him, told him how his behavior was threatening, he had no meaningful response, and came in again the following week and I ignored him again.
But I work in a store, and at this point I knew he was bothering me and I suspected he was trying to get somewhere with his mixed up feelings. I sent a letter telling him to stay away from workplace, which he has done. Then, with NC established, I started to recover from his disheartening actions.
Today I got the insight that he is a lite version of Dr Jekyl and Mr Hyde, and that is likely a personality disorder.
I think you are right that is does get ugly when emotions are invloved. But like NML has written elsewhere, what matters is what happens after it gets ugly. When I did NC, I intuitively knew I was not equipped to deal with his turbulent emotional troubles, even as a friend… because he can’t. He has always had real trouble communicating when things heat up. It’s too confusing and hurtful to me, the shaky ground he calls home,
But man it is taking me some time and effort to really get over the shock and confusion and bad feelings. And yeah I do feel some empathy that this is a person who opened up to me, who maybe has an illness, but I was not willing to be a friend on his shaky terms.
For all the reasons you mention, it illogically made me have doubts about my own self, and whether I should be more understanding to someone in need.
I think the degree of AC/EUM can vary and there is a line where it’s more of a more difficult personality disorder or illness than typical AC clown behavior. Your story def sounds like what we like to say ” uhh, think your meds need adjusting ”
I joke, but because I have family experience with mental illness, I guess I am more sensitive to just cutting someone off. But at the same time, the relationship got too emotionally abusive for me and for my own sake I had to let go, even though it is hard. And yes the whole thing has left me dazed and confused too.
For me a reason to keep an assclown in my life as “friend”, is because I feel humiliated when he dumped me. By keeping him as a friend, I feel like I still have some sort of control, which makes me feel somehow less humiliated. Isn’t that strange (or rather sick…)
“You have to ask yourself this – Are you actually planning to get over your ex and move on?”
exactly !!! The reality is, that THAT is the real issue that needs to be faced.
You cannot be friends with someone who wasn’t your friend in the first place.
And he wasn’t your friend if he was treating you disrespectful, unkindly, or wasn’t trustworthy and consistently showing you with his actions as well as his words that he valued you in his life and loved you.
And if he WAS respectful, kind and worthy of your trust, and had valued and loved you, you two would still be together.
Stop making excuses for what went wrong, and start knowing that in your wanting to be friends what you are really saying is that you can’t bear the fact that he has left, that you are alone, that your dream did not materialize and that you cannot make him into the person you believe you want him to be with such blinders of hope.
LET GO. He didn’t value you as a wife or girlfriend – he will NOT value you as a friend.
And you will die inside when this ‘friend’ (your ex) starts telling you who he is dating, and when he finally cuts you out of his life altogether because his new (latest) girlfriend doesn’t want him talking to you !
He will NOT think you are amazing and understanding and be grateful you are in his life and realize he never want to let you go.
He will just have contempt for you for accepting so little, and figure it’s fine with you because you are putting up with it.
And he will have no guilt about it either, nor feel like he owes you anything, if you were secretly hoping he’d feel obligatred to return your “niceness and warmth and loving and forgiveness.”
You have showed him that you really DON’T think you are worthy of being the main person in his life exactly because you will take 2nd, 3rd or 4th in his priority list so meekly after being dumped.
You must have healthy boundaries and let go of your ex when the relationship had ended/is painful more than it is pleasurable.
Be a friend to yourself, and don’t accept crumbs of time and attention from someone who doen’t care you are spending Saturday night – your birthday – the holidays, etc. by yourself.
No, you cannot be friends. And you shouldn’t want to be. He hasn’t done anything worthy of your friendship – he’s told you he doesn’t want you, and that isn’t ‘friendly’.
Hello, I tried being friends after a few break ups and then got back together and ended up with me cutting all contact (nearly 8 months now)… he was as unavaillable as a friend as when we were together …:-( . Finally know am better alone..
I have a question regarding this. I recently met a guy at a rock concert. The night I met him it was clear he was looking for a little fun but I wouldn’t let it go further than a kiss or two. His friends were there and they warned me that he had a bad breakup at the beginning of the year and that he’s not over her and trying to be a player (but it’s not in his nature so he’s really bad at it). I summed him up and knew he had potential but didn’t want to take it further. He got my number from my friend and and started texting me and we ended up having a conversation this way. I also agreed to have dinner with him. At dinner, he did a complete about turn and behaved in the most respectful way possible and didn’t try anything inappropriate. So we had a great date and I started to really like him. The next day I asked him why there was a sudden change in tempo from his side and he said that he had been too drunk to see on the Friday that I am an awesome woman and that I respect myself so I deserve his respect and he is giving it to me. He also said I was worth too much to discard and he wanted to get to know me better. I was blown away and so we made plans to see each other again. The whole time he stayed in contact. Then on the day of our date he calls me and tells me he’s still in love with his ex and not ready to date me. Now he wants to be friends. I am upset because I warned him initially that I don’t tolerate EUM’s but he’s called me this week already to check in. He’s writing exams at the moment and has to focus on that. I am a firm believer in no contact but considering we technically only saw each other twice and only one of those times was a date, he can’t be classified as an assclown. Also, he was honest and upfront with me about his feelings and he didn’t try to sleep with me (not that I would have let him) or attempt any sexual contact with me. It’s really hard to find a man that is so self aware. Do I keep him as a friend (knowing that I’m hoping when he’s over her he’ll choose me) or do I cut off all contact?
Any advice would be appreciated.
Nice article and that is so true.Like I said as soon as I cuted the sex from my friendship with my ex he decided he wasnt interested in being friends anymore.NML is so right.I did try being friends after the break up twice even and honestly it doesnt work.The first time our friendship lead to try to get back together(to a relationship that didnt fulfill my needs like before) and this time to being used.I think I just wanted to keep him on my life when I asked to be friends and Im finaly realizing it isnt worth it.
Dazed
Wow – I know its easy to say when you’re not the one involved – but this guys sounds like a total nutjob who has no handle on his emotional outbursts. I do not think that you could have ‘made’ him respond in such an immature manner – no matter what you said or did. That is just who he is.
I dont know if this is the same guy you mentioned before – but, if so, it seems that sometimes those ‘quiet and shy’ types have quite a bit of hostility built up inside them and although they may seem fairly even keel for the most part, when they blow it’s way out of proportion to the immediate incident. Like it’s been building up a long time and they seem to have no control once the lid comes off. This guy sounds kind of scary – I’m glad you are done with him.
Loving Annie, your posts are always very insightful. I went back and read something by you recently. I also liked one of the posts about how it’s a lose lose with these guys. You said something about how if you fight, they argue and if you stay they think you are weak. I did this at the end having forgotten the lessons learned last time. I was honest, I was heartfelt… but my self esteem has dropped off because I didn’t stand up for myself. I told him I missed him and he kicked me when down. I didnd’t argue because it only further proved his point, and just said thank you for your views and then left. But I made contact after that… mostly because we work together and I was forced to see him every day and battle between not being bitter and professional and not being too nice. I was too nice.
Aphrogirl… It’s funny that these men seem to have serious communication issues but it was my communication that was always chipped at. I was told I did not deliver messages well, quote definitions of communication, told I needed to not be so mean and critical.
I kept working and working at it… but his communication sucked! And because I couldn’t “show” him that I doubted it myself that it was me who had the problem because he certainly knew it was not him.
NML… I am also wondering if you might say something to us about forgiveness of yourself. I see that a lot of us want to be friends with these men, and we chase after them afterwards, try and apologize. The day my Ex dumped me, he hung up the phone on me. It wasn’t over until the next day when I called to apologize and he lost it. But I want to forgive myself for having gone back to apologize, for not having had the strength to say this is not acceptable behaviour, to watch him freak out as I withdrew, as opposed to letting him chit chat to me all weak and me smiling like some puppy dog. How do you go away with dignity knowing you missed your moment to be strong and stand up for yourself?
If people try and be friends with these men it will only prolong the process because at some point your eyes open up and then you feel really small because you know he’s been laughing at you for being so weak. Do not prolong the inevitable by trying to appear nice to these men and get what scraps you can. Please be strong, not rude or bitter, but be strong because the longer you hang around the more of your self esteem you lose once you realize what this person truly is.
The only time I have been able to be friends with an ex, was many years later. The others, even one two years later didn’t work. That one, he wanted more than I was willing to give, and became trouble in a current relationship, spending a lot of time attempting to influence my perception of things. The other, I thought I was over around six months later, but I wasn’t and I’m not. I am still somewhat engaging in the friendship knowing what it is doing to me. The six months worth of work I did on myself went mostly all down the drain.
You may think you are over them and are now okay to be friends, but most all of the time, you are just fooling yoursel, because of all the reasons NML states.
searchingwithin’s last blog post..How Will We Love?
I dont know about others, but I didnt stay “friends” with my exes…OVER is over, no way back, even as a friend! I dont want to see them again, I am not bothered what they do, or who they with…it is not MY CONCERN anymore!
Thank you NML!
I think what can help to let go is to take the EUM out of the pedestal we put them.One time a friend asked me “what is so great about this guy that you just cant let go?” And I couldnt come up with a answer,I mean he wasnt a much good bf and the relationship wasnt good either so I realy didnt have reasons to hold on to that.If we start to see them as how they realy are instead of the image we have of them,we will see there is realy no reason to not let go.
What I love about your article is it’s affirmation of my feeling that I could care less about seeing or hearing from my ex ever again! I thought I was being insensitive, unkind, and immature not to be able to keep friendly feelings. Hah! It’s with such a feeling of relief that days go by without hearing his voice. The silence is so healing. Thanks!
NML thank you! thank you! thank you! Great post and right on point. These men are not good at relating because they have no emotional life and whateer emoions they do have is reserved for getting their needs met.
To Judy June,
Cut contact. He is still in love with his ex, he just broke up with her and now he is back with her and doesn’t want you. Hoping he’ll break up with her and then get back with you is, as NML warns, “betting on potential” and living an illusion. Thank him for being honest in telling you that he doesn’t want you. BUT YOU WANT a man who is available and makes you #1 in his life not lady-wait-and-see-how-it-goes-with-this-other-chick-and- then-I-might-talk-to-you-and-give-you-some-of-my time. Please!!
Amen NML! This is totally what I am going through right now. My EUM (and as hard it is for me to admit, total Assclown) had been a friend first …for years! He was kind and supportive…then we crossed the line (in many ways–he’s married) and then it became the AssclownChannel…all him all the time…and I hung in there for all the reasons you listed…the same with trying to have him in my life as friend (the comment about not wanting to seem like a >insert word here< rang so true). This supposedly smart woman should have known better…all him, all the time–not there for me in the least. What tears me up is that I wonder–Who was the real him? The friend I had for 20 years? (I am in my late 40s) or the guy I had the fling with? I guess it shouldn’t matter since I am dealing with such a jerk but well, it just hurts.
YES! Wonderful post NML–in fact I recently did not go to a meeting about something I’m interested in because I might run into a**clown and I’m just not ready to deal with him. I tried to be friends with him while we were doing things together but he’s not capable. I have no guilt or remorse, even when I think about his positive traits. But I know that others–both men and women–know what he’s up to. He’s a loser in so many ways.
Dazed and Confused,
Thank you… The learning curve is a slow and sometimes hard one, but if I can get it, anyone can
Dont ever worry about not being nice – meaning you choose to act professionally instead. Trust me, you’ll get no credit for kindness – he’ll just see it as meeting his ego stroke needs without any need to meet yours outside of the office. Businesslike all the way, D & C !
Loving Annie’s last blog post..Kitchen Window
Broken hearted – you give me such hope! Your short but sweet post was great! How I cant wait to start feeling that way. Even though I told him goodbye we still seem tethered. When I said there was no hope of gluing this broken relationshp back together he said he couldnt stay friends. But we havent gone NC yet. So we’re in limbo – broken up – he’s angry that he has to suffer based on a choice I made – land.
Thanks Loving Annie… It’s tough. I go back and forth each day thinking no this man is not a nice person… then I remember all the great stuff he did do for me and I think wait maybe I blew it. A friend and I were talking tonight about how when we get involved with people we are not happy anymore. Is that because we choose bad partners or do we just shy away from commitment due to our issues? So then I worry that this man did have it all together, was affectionate, was strong and honest and I just couldn’t handle it. Sure he blew up at the end… but maybe I just finally pushed his last button? I have moments where I feel so sure about what he was, and how I did do a good job, and then other days I see him as this perfect man, who is older, more secure, more self aware and that it was me who was immature and couldn’t handle the intimacy and commitment. I just don’t know. I tell myself either way it was not going to work as I need to work on me, but it’s little consolation if he turns out to be a great catch and I blew it with my own issues.
Thing is… most people around the office are not too fond of him either. They think he is very arrogant and has a nasty temper. So I at least do not see him as loved all around. Other people find him pompous and tough to deal with.
I just wish I had some crystal ball that would tell me that there is nothing I could have done to change this. Given that he was more of a gentleman to me than any other guy I find it hard to label him as an EUM. Can one be affectionate but emotionally detached? I just don’t have all the answers.
Either way… I am not in a good place so it seems. So I need to work on me regardless of what happened with him. Just hard to let go wishing I could have a second chance to at least change my own behaviour.
Judy: Hmmm…
This sounds so similar to my tale; if you are truly looking for advice, and not just an affirmation of your own opinion, all I can say is, “Run the other way.”
My EUM/AC acted in the most appropriate way, called, was kind and considerate, said he understood that his actions were confusing, etc.
He wasn’t over his other woman.
There was a post a while back, from Brad K. that spoke of the ink being dried. He stated that the ink being dried is not even enough. It takes time for people to get over relationships and get healthy emotionally.
Trust the guy. He said, “He is not over his ex.” Even if he thinks and acts, on occasion, like he is. Until he is over her – or over his AC ways – there is no chance for you.
You have not invested enough time to truly be caught up in him and with him. Keep him at arm’s length. Save yourself the turmoil.
Maybe ACs can change, but it won’t happen on your time.
Mine was an Unknowing Assclown — unable to appreciate the nature and consequences of his acts. When I last saw him on 2/21, he wanted to see me more — concerts, movies, the circus (I mean the real one, not my life with him up until that time), etc. When, by 3/17 I had not seen him again, I wrote a fairly honest e-mail indicating that I needed to see him with some regularity to feel the connection, etc. It was not a clingy, frenzied letter — or my honest posse would have told me so. Nonetheless, I did not hear from him for 25 days, at which time he sent me an internet pet joke. Stupid me — I thought that that was the entree to reimbark upon contact, and a hoped-for meeting. I asked to meet for a drink, some hiking, a movie, a sporting event — and he never responded to these specific inquiries, although he continues to send his dumba** jokes, like clockwork, every 11 or so days.
I have embarked upon the NC period, and have not contacted him since his 5/11 birthday. I feel much healthier, and feel like I am breaking free of him, when I do not hear from him. Obviously, he has moved on — either further into his self-exiled depression over major life events (which he would not bring to our table), or is now dating someone else. I can no longer be concerned, as I have come to view him as a selfish little boy (at 38) who thinks of no one except himself.
I am so glad that I found this site, which I continue to access when I am able for ongoing catharsis and release. Reading all of your comparable stories and “case histories” have helped so much that I cannot possible articulate the degree and level of comfort I have received.
Finally, against this backdrop, I cannot be friends with him — if that is the purpose of these intermittent “jokes”. He has hurt me without remorse after breaking promises to see me and keep me in his life. Somewhere, out there, is someone better for me, and I will not stop my search until I find him.
QT,
The choice was all his when he decided to fool around.
Res Judicata,
Why don’t you block his e-mail address, then you will not have your bi-monthly reminder?
NML, you are so right. AC are not friend material. By letting them back into our lives after they cheated, lied or whatever their poor behavior was that led us to break up with them, only signals to them we think very little about ourselves and are willing to let them treat us badly again. If they didn’t respect us when we were in the relationship, except for the beginning honeymoon period when they’re pursuing us, they won’t respect us as friends.
My ex has been calling but I have no interest in starting either a friendship or another relationship with him. It took me a long time to get over him and I’m not going to make the same mistake twice.
The “friend zone” is no place to be with an xEUM.
NAIL —> HEAD.
If a man was an assclown in a relationship, why believe that he’ll be a better friend?
In the last year, I’ve cut off 3 men that I used to talk to (one is an actual ex). Two of them have tried to get me to talk to them in the past WEEK, and the other one has tried in the past TWO WEEKS. Two of them have tried getting to me by calling my (shallow and moronic) “friend” for information about me; she believes that I should go back to being friends with these assclowns. This is the same woman who, after being in an all-around abusive relationship with her ex-assclown for 3.5 years, wasted another FOUR years having sex with him and is STILL friends with the assclown to this very day.
I made my boundaries clear to the assclowns AND to her. I really don’t have time for nonsense.
I’ve made too much progress to turn back.
Aphrogirl
Spot on, just had this myself and was fooled for a second time. I have blocked him from everything, and delete phone messages without listening to them. He said he had bipolar so yes you end up thinking meds need adjusting. Subtle eh.
These blogs really do help. Thank you.
Gayle – thank you for reminding me. That little tidbit gets lost in my head after a few rounds of ‘its up to you if you want to fix this’ and ‘so you’re just going to throw these years away and not even try’ and more of that. Confuses the issue and you feel like somehow you’re the one to blame because you just can’t go through any more disappointments. Things were looking somewhat better when he stopped the contact with the OW for a month or so – but as soon as it started again everything went to pot. His insistence that it was nothing did not help at all – it was the beginning of the end of an already shaky existence.
I was reading somewhere about the difference between being cordial and being friends. I think that’s a good distinction to keep in mind with these guys you still have to see out and about. Cordial seems manageable – caring and concerned is what I need to stay away from because it sucks you back into their lives and their problems which is not good and I assume takes you back to square 1.
QT,
PLease stay away, this guy is unbelievable!! I really can’t believe-maybe I can-that he is putting the demise of the relationship on you. I don’t know which is more outrageous, deflecting the blame or remaining in contact with this woman. A complete slap in face to you!!!
Stay strong!! You’ve made the right decision
QT,
Remember, if he were truly sorry he wouldn’t be blaming you and this woman would have been gone upon discovery.
For me it is a clear dignity preserver NOT to be friends with the EX/EUM/AC whatsoever. If he failed as a partner/lover why should he qualify as a good friend? My ex wants to stay in the picture, but what for? For rubbing in his “happiness” with the other woman? I just go with the flow and wish him well. It seems to suck a tiny little bit. My pleasure!
Let him wonder and feel how it is to have met a woman who respects herself, sets boundaries and puts her needs FIRST. He had his chance – and he spoilt it. Game over.
I think it is really important for us women to understand that we have to be very, very selective. It is nature’s way to make sure and let US define our standards to men. That’s really powerful. If they don’t live up to that, they can’t have a self-respecting, quality woman. And it also makes sure, that we put our energies into that goal too: e.g. self-confidence which really draws men toward us.
Well, to set the right tone what cool phrases come to mind in the sense of “dignity preservers”? e.g. if he asks me to be friends a possible answer might be: “Considering the past I can’t see any basis for a friendship. Best wishes.” And period. Or “I don’t believe in second chances, let alone third, fourth ones.” And period. (I hope I could make myself understood, English is not my mother tongue.)
I’d like to collect more of such cool statements. Are you in on it? Any suggestions?
Dazed……what really worked for me was thinking back to a healthy relationship I had. What it felt like to be in love and to be loved back in a reciprocal way. Not me wrapping my life around his and doing most of the giving. A real loving relationship requires two people committed to each other. Not one person doing all the work or one person on the receiving end of weird and disrespectful behavior. Relationships are complicated and nobody is perfect but you really have to set your bar high and not allow anyone to treat you badly. I allowed a man to walk all over me and called it love. Even though he could be very charming especially the first year, in the end he betrayed me and behaved in ways that told me he didn’t really love me, at least not the way I want to be loved. You have to believe that you’re worth more then what these men have to give, it really is all about self worth and what you believe about yourself. For me that was my way out of that dark place I was in after we broke up. It does get better.
Loving Annie………great post and right on point. You said everything I wanted to say.
Remaining friends with an assclown can have bad affects on other people, not just you. Your “friendship” is seen as a stamp of approval by your real friends and associates. I stayed “friends” with an assclown who I knew had no conscience, and not only did he burn at least two of my friends financially, but he out and out stole from another friend. Then, to top it off, he groped another friend as she laid passed out on her own sofa. After that, we all joined together and banished him, but I will always feel responsible for having introduced this con artist into my circle of friends.
Ladies
if a man treats you poorly then under no circumstances is he a “friend.” He has no respect for you and by allowing him to continue to be in your life, you are not showing enough respect for yourself.
Trust me, we pull the friends card to make US look better, not to make you feel better.
The EUM/AC I just started NC with was always going on about how he was still friends with all his ex’s. At Christmas, he had me on the phone while he was driving to an ex’s to drop off a card and some Starbuck’s gift cards for her daughters. I remarked that I thought it was odd that he was focusing so much on this “ex”. He acted like he didn’t want to be doing it, but wanted to stay “friends’ with this woman. He actually prided himself that he was able to stay friends with all these women. Which is amazing, this harem he believes he has…he has a daughter who hasn’t spoken to him in nearly 2 years, another who makes plans to do things without consulting him. But he wants all these pushy/pully relationships to continue.
So when it came to me wanting more, the first thing out of his friggin mouth was, “Can’t we be friends?” I said no, I didn’t think it would be fair to any potential bf’s to have him around while I still had strong feelings for him. Eventually, after the break-up, I found myself back with him. This time, I was firmly in the friend camp TO HIM, but he kept telling me that he loved me, he had strong feelings for me, he cared so much about me.
I love, love, love my girlfriends. I’d kill for some of them. But I don’t tell them I love them, we are meant to be together, we are so good together and then treat them like poo-poo. This clown, after going away for the weekend, YET AGAIN, no communication for days, sent me an email, after I said “Good bye(riddence)” saying that he “valued our connection” and he wished he “could continue to give to me”. ALL BS.
You CAN’T be friends with these guys because they can’t be friends with ANYONE. The more I got to know AC, the more I realized that his “friendships” were quite tenuous…in other words, they weren’t as strong and solid as he liked to believe. Many of his “friends” were more what I would call acquaintences. I think he is more tolerated than adored. Very sad for him
Myalmost… a great response. I have not had a healthy loving relationship which is my problem. So when this guy came along and did all these things like call all the time, I didn’t find myself chasing him around, he wanted to see me constantly, he went away on vacation and called me every day while away to say he missed me… I look back and think “what was I complaining about?” He didn’t cheat, lie, disappear like all these other stories. He would go out with his buddies and call me while with them to check in for goodness sakes!
He always wanted me there… but just kind of to be there like a trophy almost. His ex was a server and his idea of hanging out with her was to go drink with his friends every night at the bar she worked at. I am not sure that this isn’t an element of control still… having you around all the time and doing what they want to be doing. Even on Friday nights… we would have dinner or get a bottle of wine… he had to invite his friend along all the time as if my company was not enough.
So thanks for reminding me that someone can be nice. I just read all these posts and thought jeez he didn’t jerk me around like some of these men have done so then I thought maybe he’s not all that bad.
But that doesn’t mean that he didn’t still talk down to me, not offer emotional support, refuse to meet my friends on several occasions.
Exactly, Mike!
Can you stay friends?
Well I think friends is the wrong word if you’ve been treated badly and they’ve said and done things that have hurt you – which is not an accident – I don’t believe that anyone ‘accidentally’ knows exactly what to say to hit your weak spots or ‘accidentally’ screws someone else.
If you have to see them on a regular basis and it feels artificial to ignore them completely then I agree that cordial sends a powerful message too. Where I live it would be totally bizarre to ignore someone who you know, or even someone you don’t know if they say hello, which everyone does here. The big difference is that the brief ‘hello’ then walking on says that you are not going to engage again.
After saying this I am hardly a great example to follow. I stayed away from the AC for 18 months, then met as ‘friends’ so I thought. I’d done a lot of work on my problems, loads of therapy etc. so thought I was safe.I can’t quite leave him alone.
Dazed I agree with that thing about them wanting a trophy. Shows their ‘friends’ that someone somewhere adores them, which of course is what they really want. Someone whom they can control and manipulate but who appears like a trophy on the outside.
My AC told me recently that I am hard on the inside but seem soft on the outside. Believe me before I met him and ended up with years of therapy the reverse was true. Like
Oops sorry, hit the wrong button!
Was going to say that like many here, we are strong and independent on the outside which is what is attractive to the empty, spineless ones that EUM’s tend to be, but have problems with our self respect which allows them to play their tricks to break us down.
So now I am happy that the AC thinks I am hard inside – certainly it’s true where he is concerned thanks to blogs like this and the therapy.
Next step for most of us has to be to learn to recognise good potential and walk away from the AC and all other no hopers.
sadthing’s last blog post..Can you stay friends with Mr Unavailable’s & Assclowns after you break up?- Part One
My xEUM was someone who “Appeared” to have really really great qualities. He certainly talked and said all the right things. He even started off with enough consistency to make you believe all the things that he was saying were going to be backed up with “actions”. If you guys were to meet him at first you would really think “I” was the crazy one!! LOL Then, as time passed, all of a sudden he wouldn’t come through on things that he said and when confronted about it… he would never take responsibility and simply have an “excuse” for not coming through. This was all so confusing because he would go back and forth making you think that oh maybe he was just having a bad day, week, month etc…. until enough time had passed and you were able to figure out that this was his pattern. Now grant it… he was someone that was already living with someone so besides that having been enough of a red flag to tell me that it was not a good idea, I was just not that savvy to tell myself that i was about to just waste my time! Needless to say, I hung on to those times when he showed those “good qualities” so tight because had he just fixed this part of himself…….he was literally everything i would have wanted! Its hard to see him every day and remind myself that he is not the person that I “think”, “wish” or “want” him to be. I have to fight with myself not to go there and remind myself of the person that he was when he was with me. Now yes i got into this messy situation myself but i got in it because of all the promises, and the pursuing and the assurances (what i thought at the time) that this man was not happy at home and i fell into the “poor me” belief. I thought that he just needed the right kind of love, the right kind of woman (me of course) to make him happy, and how unfortunate his situation was and what we were going to do to help him! NOT!!!!!! Now fast forward to where I am now only 6months later, NC and have learned a tremendous amount from this site. I contemplate whether or not we should be more amicable because believe it or not, he is so charming that at any moment… he tries to make me believe that he can be a good “friend” with “good” qualities but then I realize that this is his M.O. He comes by my office (we work together) and tries to make me believe that oh he was watching out for me by letting me in on some information about one of my jobs. Or by stopping me and saying: Hey, I noticed you’r headlight is out on your car… let me know and i can help you get it fixed. And then he will even proceed to call me a few days later and say: Listen, I talked to my friend and your headlight would only cost you this much, let me know and I’ll fix it for you (yeah right!). Now under normal circumstances, I would say: Well this guy is really nice, he seems to be sincere and genuine and he seems to be so “caring”. Believe me, there are times when I think I am the one who is crazy and bitter and just plain “MEAN” This is the hard part, because this isnt your “normal” guy and so therefore, this isnt your “normal” circumstance. Do I sometimes WANT to believe that he is this caring and attentive to my needs? Sure…….but I know darn well that he is on really GREAT Behaviour when its time to reel me in, but that its only a matter of time before down the road, this changes and like any other friend, you expect them to come through on their “offers of help” and he is nowhere to be found!!! I know when I was in the relationship with him, he would do this. And so I would take him up on it and be like: Sure! Great… yeah please help me with the headlight etc… and then…..uhm……. nothing would happen!!!?? And i would be completely stumped and then it was “me” chasing him around about when the headlight was going to get fixed when he was the one who kept offering in the first place!!!!!!! Talk about twisting things around! INSANITY I tell you!!! These men are just so bizarre!!! I still dont get it, I just dont understand.
I WISH that I could move him into my “friendship” category, I really do… but he is toxic and he would never come through for me as a friend. I am cordial and polite and professional but I no longer pay attention to his “attempts” at trying to be my friend (or whatever you want to call what he is doing). I seriously think like Aphrogirl said once: He is just trying to make himself look good. “Look at me, Im being so nice to you,,, Im asking you about your headlight” or “Im on top of your project because I truly care”. See how manipulative these men can be? And if you aren’t privy to what these men are up to– its really easy to fall for their “ACT”. This is why at times I question myself and I say hmmmm…. could he really be “trying” to be nice to me? Could he really be “trying” to be my friend and im the one being so insensitive and cruel and mean about the whole thing? Well you know what, I dont know. I dont know whether or not he would come through on anything and I dont know what is “reason” is for doing any of this but it certainly gets me thinking sometimes and gets me trying to “figure” him out all over again. I certainly dont care to be there anymore and so I realize that being his “friend” at the moment is just not possible. And I realize that because Im even putting this much thought into it means that Im still not 100% emotionally detached from him. I hope that soon real soon I can come back and say he is completely out of my system, for now… I have to stay as far away as possible for my own well being and friendship just seems to be out of the question.
Dazed…..I understand about dissecting his behavior to see if they fit in the AC category. The bottom line is most men can manage to be nice some of the time. The first year of my relationship was wonderful, we planned to get married, we did everything together. But when i look back on it now it was always about him. His needs, his problems, his life. I think a good many of these men are either narcissists or have narcissistic tendencies. So even when they’re being “nice”, you still feel marginalized. It’s easy to look back and re-write history. I know I’ve done it. I made my ex into a saint after the breakup because I didn’t want to admit that I had just wasted two years of my life on a EUM relationship. After the smoke cleared and I started to see him for who he really was, not some trumped up fantasy person, I realized that he was selfish and self centered and that I had allowed him to dial down my expectations as the relationship progressed. At the end I had just grown weary of crying all the time and being miserable.
So yes, they can be sweet and charming but that doesn’t take much effort. Actually it’s one of the characteristics of a narcissistic personality. It’s the way they reel you in. Then after they have you hooked, their other less appealing side shows itself. In the first year of my relationship he rarely missed a day of calling me or contacting me.. We were inseparable but then he started to change because he was cheating. I noticed it immediately but my heart wouldn’t listen to my head. When I finally ended it I was an emotional wreck. It’s hard to remember a time when I felt as bad as I did then.
You must set boundaries in your relationships and if a man continually crosses them, no matter how great he may be at other times, the only thing to do is walk. Life is too short to put up with that. If you have to ponder and wonder over a man and whether he’s worth it, he’s probably not.
The more stories I hear, the more I think that some guys ( and some women, but less of us) just come unhinged when they experience strong emotions, and their method of coping is to get those emotions out of themselves however they can. And they try all sorts of methods of avoidance and evasion. Cheating, lying, disappearing.. they do whatever dumb thing they can to avoid actually experiencing those emotions.
I rarely watch TV, but I often stop at a friends place, whose TV is always on and have caught the show two and a half men several times. In case you don’t know it the ” hero”, ( and yes, many men do consider him a hero), is a good looking, well off master of the glib … pick em up, sleep with em/ get rid of em. Then again, ala more hollywood, it is rare when he meets a woman who does not fall for or put up with his BS, initially at least.
What was interesting is a rerun I saw the other night where he came completely unhinged when he met something of a female version of himself, a gorgeous woman who only wanted him for sex, made no bones about it, saw nothing wrong with it, sweetly asked him to leave as soon as it was over, ( she had to get up early for a meeting) told him not to call her, she’d call him, and then she did call only when she wanted sex.
It was really interesting, the more she did this to him, he got more and more nutty, realizing he was not in control AND she did not really care much about him. Bottom line is he could not handle his emotions, his lack of control in their encounters, her rejection of him as a person, and you also could see he was so damn confused he did not know how he felt. Nor did he figure it out and tell her off, but instead he goofily tried to “end it” by trying to beat her first at indifference, which he was not exactly successful at.
She was in control for that part too, and did not care a bit about how he felt, so she was only annoyed when she realized she was not going to get the sex. It was pretty weird how perfectly the roles were reversed and the show was really well done. If he had been a mature man he would have told her how he felt, or got angry and broke it off, but instead he had no depth of feeling and played it like a game he would not lose.
So, think my point is…some people are ill equipped to handle emotions with intelligence and grace, and the emotions do crop up in these people, but then they do all manner of stupid stuff to try to manage/ get rid of them so they feel in control. And, by distancing themselves from emotion, they lose the opportunity to learn, grow and mature by honestly evaluating those emotions.
Some guys are way worse than others when it comes to taking a hard look at what is going on. I bet many exes who want to be friends fall into this category. But, be it a relative, a friend, lover, or ex, who does not communicate maturely, you are still dealing with someone emotionally challenged, and not sharp enough to know to proceed/ work on it.
I see now that it is so important to always pay attention that your self confidence is well detached from them and their issues.
Oh I have one more thing to add, since I don’t want to sound like some angel here.
The game playing was one the reason I was not willing to stay
“friends”. I noticed that his wishy washy game playing brought up a competitive spirit in me that I had never experienced. I found I would engage in odd volatile or distancing reactiions, and after acting like this I was kind of surprised at my less than mature behavior.
Big diff between us though, is I would then take a hard look at me and my less than stellar behavior and try to talk with him about the odd dynamic we shared.
But he could not really go there, and was unwilling or unable to do the work of friendship. Finally, when something rather serious happened it got clear to me that I was not willing to engage in the one sided, shallow and competitive game thing anymore.
I am grateful that this website introduced me to NC, it was the dose of rational thought I was missing
I don’t have time to read all the replies just yet..
But from the article I would like to add nor can you disappear from their lives with no contact inplace but in the back of your mind you are hoping he will miss you enough to call you and want you back in some capacity .. the capacity he will want you back in is still on his terms.. all of his relationships are on his terms.
I was stupidly thinking and thankfully I have returned to my senses of seeing exEUM tomorrow in a friendship capacity this is in spite of all the time I did invest trying to be his friend and him just shoving in my face about how much he didn’t want to be a friend.. thankfully I have read this article remembered the painful lessons learnt and also read that if he likes you he will match his words with his actions something exEUM could not do !!! So tomorrow I shall leave him be and go on with my business.. PHEW thank you for this timely reminder !!!!
Aphrogirl… just a fantastic post. My mind always gets going at night thinking too much and I just read this and it made me think ya… that’s just it. Emotionally challenged is a great way of putting it. Because it allows for space, mistakes, that these men can be good and then treat you badly. It’s not you, it’s not some mystery, they just struggle to cope with their emotions. And I think as women we rarely understand this. There was an article in the paper the other day about a study being conducted on how men and women literally think and process information differently. As a result communication often fails. If you are dealing with someone who is emotionally challenged in addition to this… well needless to say.
Thanks you just summed things up nicely for me as I am battling between the Jekyl and Hyde I dealt with. But when you put it so simplyl that they cannot process their emotions well, it just made sense.
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