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Over the past few days (and many times before) there has been a lot of talk in the comments about staying friends with your ex, and more importantly, whether you can stay friends with a Mr Unavailable or assclown after you’ve broken up.
I have written on several occasions about being friend’s with your ex for example in can’t we just be friends, and for me it’s like this:
If you are no longer emotionally attached to your ex and have gotten over him and moved on, let’s say 6 months or a year down the line, go ahead and knock yourself out. That is of course if he actually has qualities tha t make him worthy of actually being your friend.
If you want, need, or expect anything from your ex, even if you don’t express it or acknowledge it, you have ulterior motives for wanting to be his friend.
If you want to be his friend in spite of the fact that 1) you were never friends in the first place and/or 2) he treated you poorly in the relationship, I have to ask,
why the hell do you want to be friends with this man?
Now when it comes to Mr Unavailable’s and assclowns there are a number of factors at play:
The relationship is likely to be based on illusions with much betting on potential involved.
There is a lack of commitment and emotional connection.
There is a lack of empathy.
There is a lack of care, concern, and respect.
There has been much managing down of your expectations.
The relationships are on their terms even when they ‘let’ you ‘think that you’re getting your own way.
There’s a whole load of negativity and lack of positivity.
Your needs were not being met.
You have been trained to accept crumbs.
In essence, the relationship is lacking.
And yet, many a woman, many a Fallback Girl or assclown lover, is eager to be friends with their ex. Why?
Well the way you’ll tell it is:
You don’t believe in being mean/horrible/cold/nasty [insert your word of choice].
You don’t want to waste what you had between you both.
You don’t want to seem like you’re not being mature about things.
You still care about him.
You would like to have him in your life.
You think that just because you can’t be lovers doesn’t mean you can’t be friends.
You project how you would feel in the situation and you wouldn’t want him to not be friends with you.
Now hard as this may be for many of you to hear, these are all codewords and phrases for:
I don’t want to let go.
I want to stay emotionally invested.
I’m hoping he’ll change.
I’m hoping that he’ll regret letting me go.
I don’t love me enough.
In reality, if you want to stay friends with your Mr Unavailable or assclown you are inadvertently establishing a new fallback position.
You’ll still be that woman that he thinks he can rely on for an ego stroke, a shag, or a shoulder to lean on…he’ll just believe he can now do it under the guise of friendship.
If you’re still emotionally attached and you end up providing him with either an ego stroke, shoulder to lean on, or sex, or all of them, he gets the fringe benefits without the hassle of you wanting, needing, and expecting from him as if you were in a relationship.
You’re yet again marginalising yourself because you’ve decided to exchange the situation where you were not getting your needs met for ‘friendship’.
This isn’t because you actually want friendship; it’s more that you want to stay in his life in the hope that he will regret letting go of you, finally recognise your value, and validate you and the emotional expenditure that you’ve thrown at him.
Trust me, you’re not staying friends with him because he’s such a great person and again, you are caught up in illusions and betting on potential, because instead of magicking him into a wonderful boyfriend, you have now conjured up a replacement illusion where he will be a good friend that treats you decently. You have no basis for deciding this – you have more of a basis for telling him to take a run and jump!
Assclowns in particular, make lousy boyfriends, lovers, husbands, …and also friends.
All he will see is that you still want to be there and offer the hand of friendship in spite of the fact that he has treated you with low regard.
These guys won’t do the friendship on your terms and the litmus test of this is when you refuse to allow them to talk to you in a sexual manner, use you as a booty call, give them an ego stroke, call you or turn up at will, and poke around in your business. When they can’t get these things, suddenly ‘friendship’ is not so interesting.
At the end of the day, if you still want to be friends with your assclown (and Mr Unavailable’s) when it’s patently clear that you’re not over them and that you haven’t built up your self-esteem, it’s like playing with fire, and we all know that if you play with fire you get burned.
You have to ask yourself this – Are you actually planning to get over your ex and move on?
If you are, you need to rethink your fallback plan and opt out of the friendship because what you want is in contradiction with your actions, and you want to have the best of both worlds, even though he couldn’t even give you the best of one…
Part Two and part three.
Your thoughts?
Get ahead on understanding waste of space men and relationships with my ebook, Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl. Find out more and download. If you need personal advice or analysis of your relationship/situation, check out my consultation service.
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Myalmost… thank you for taking the time to tell me your story and to provide me with that comfort. Some days I think I am crazy… It’s really nice for you to share, considering it brings back sad memories for you.
I am very sorry you were cheated on… I hope you have come to a place where you know what had nothing to do with you and that is a sign of someone else being insecure and needing to meet their own needs.
You are very kind.
i commend NML on this article and also handling the issue as she did. I think she probably thinks the same way i do.. “are you kidding me”.. why would you want these pieces of sht as friends.. i agree, you are hoping for something else, although many may not admit it.. 6months, 1 year, 2 years down the line.. i still think it’s bs.. it’s not about being bitter it ’s about moving on and not revisiting that part of your life again.. Who wants them as friends, lovers, or anything else.. They are all self absorbed losers.. i’d rather have enemies.. at least you know what you’re getting and there is no bs..
good luck..
My short answer is “no” you can’t stay friends with an assclown ex.
I used to think I could with my assclown but now that I have had about 4.5 months of no contact – and am now dating a very nice guy – I see no reason.
My longer answer – The reason is – the guy had no redeeming qualities. Plus – he treated me so badly. And also – I let him treat me badly. To be friends with him would just remind me of a time in my life when I didn’t respect, love and honor myself enough.
He sent me an email the other day. I didn’t open it but I saw the header. It just said “Hi Ashley, how are you?”. I deleted it. No response. Believe it or not I was slightly tempted to respond and felt a flash of warm nostalgia. But, I did not respond and now – the feeling of warm nostalgia is gone and has been replaced by relief and happiness – that he is not in my life in any shape or form.
This is also the reason why you have those couples that break-up and get back together continuously. Once you make the relationship sexual, there’s no going back to simple “friendship.”
Tiffany @ Engagement 101’s last blog post..Vegas 2009: Photo slideshow!
Dazed….thanks for the nice comments. Just wanted to share a little of my experience with you for a different perspective. The thing that amazed me the most is how quickly these men change once they have you. It seemed like night and day to me. I’m sure there were many red flags I missed but being in love does make you blind. As soon as he started disappearing and acting different and disrespectful, I should have dumped him. Instead I put up with it and analyzed everything he did to try and find answers. The thing is there are no answers. They’re just assclowns that will push as far as they think you will let them.
Friendship with them is a toxic thing to do yourself because it tells them that you are a fallback girl that they can use for an ego stroke or sex or whatever they want, when they want it.
One last thing, my x had a few female “friends” and he would randomly contact them. He was not a good friend and you could tell one of them had a crush on him. He would be especially evasive to her and string her along, not contacting her for months. I felt sorry for her and wondered if she realized that he was using her. Little did I realize I would be in the same boat one day.
So I’ll never go there. I’ve moved on with my life and am focusing on me. Good luck.
Thank you for all the wonderful advice NML! I think I would still be chasing my EUM if not for this website. I ignored many redflags and dated my AC for 9 months until he ended it. He said that he wasn’t interested in seeing other people, but couldn’t be in a relationship right now. And because I was living in la la land I made excuses for him and decided he just needed some time. I wanted to find some way to stay in his life, and decided to try the friends route, or exactly as you describe be the fallback girl. His first response to my friend request was ‘Do friends have sex’? Ugh. I should have closed the door at that point, but I kept chasing. We exchanged some friendly im’s for a couple weeks, I was almost always the one to initiate them. Then one night he got locked out of his apartment, and I still had his spare set of keys. He asked if he could come by to pick them up, and I said that would be fine. Then he called and asked if I just wanted to come over and meet him at his apartment instead…translation have sex. It was late and I knew that was what would happen, and we wouldn’t have a real conversation about our issues, so I said I didn’t think that was a good idea he should just stop by and pick them up. So he did and he suggested then that we go out for a drink in two weeks so we could talk. The day he picked goes by and he doesn’t even acknowledge it. Another opportunity where I should have walked away and didn’t. Instead I contacted him again and set up a new time to meet. We met for dinner and I had a good time even though he avoided talking about any serious issues like his divorce (he had been separated for 5 years, but was only now finalizing the divorce, one of the red flags I ignored), status of our relationship, or any of the things I thought we were meeting to talk about. All my feelings for him come rushing back anyway, and we end up back at his place and have sex. The next day I’m still on my high and contact him saying it was good to see him, and he comments on the weather! This was my breaking point. I’m thinking we’re getting back together, and he is thinking about the weather. I’ve been NC since that day, about 6 weeks now, and I’m starting to feel better. Whenever I start to relapse back into fantasy land I read these articles and comments and remind myself of the poor behavior. I only wish I had found it a few months earlier. Thank you for helping me to be a stronger, healthier person!
Mike
Thank you for putting it so plainly for us all.
Arlena
Questions for the AC who contacts you intermittently:
“What is this – an emotional booty call?”
“Gee, you must be short of friends if you’re calling me.”
@ Tiffany,
Ironically, I think that you can go back to being friends. But I think you would both have to be well adjusted, honorable, honest, and clear-headed. And there couldn’t have been much pain when together or breaking up.
The problem is, if you were both competent and compassionate enough to pull off being friends, again – you would almost never have dropped the relationship!
The reality is that shoes don’t stretch, and men don’t change. If he wasn’t material for the long haul, then keeping in contact with him will keep you bound in the “old you” that attracted and accepted that type of assclown in the first place. And holding on to that negative self image and ways of thinking will *not* lead to a happier life.
@ Arlena,
Something about your message bothers me. I agree that lack of pride and confidence on ourselves is a horrible problem, and leads to tragedy. But I am not sure that pride is actually a healthy goal.
When you say we need to be “very, very selective”, I get the sense that you mean taking a list, and doing an intense interrogation of any guy you consider dating.
What concerns me, is I think there are certain values and characteristics that easily separate out those that want to share a life with you, and build a home. Honesty, respect, honor, discipline (the will to complete a task), and compassion come to mind. Easily intimate, fixation on body attributes or physical beauty seem like obvious “Run Away!!!” signals – including anyone attracted by makeup or other fashion gimmicks. If his eyes light up when he sees you sweaty and grungy, maybe right from the garden – that is a good thing.
What it comes down to, is what you consider the reason for picking someone to share your time and maybe your sheets. If you are thinking that taking on a guy should mean your last new companion for all the dates in your life – that is what I call perpetual dating. And I don’t see many alternatives between that and . . . building a home, forming a family (children or not). For the most part, picking the wrong guy for either goal – home or dating – is a disaster. Because what makes a guy good for one makes him unsuitable for the other. Few people make a happy transition from dating long term, to actually sharing their lives with a life-mate.
You shouldn’t have to be very, very selective. Start with looking for a good man interested in making a home for you to share with him, and don’t let the others distract you from your goal.
Assume you will be changing to adapt to whomever you pick. And, please, do pick someone that is trainable, that responds appropriately when a need for change arises. What you need to be careful of, is that you pick someone that will only need you to change for the better: Disciplined; Honest; Respectful; Frugal; Compassionate; and Joyful.
Don’t confuse humor with joy – humor cannot exist without pain or humiliation, and doesn’t make one a better person. Telliing jokes, like gossip, can, on rare occasions, express a fact or instruct one. Usually, though, a joke belittles someone. A jokester is like a gossip – they seem to entertain, but hurt those around them.
Luck!
Brad K.’s last blog post..BR: Commitment, a perspective
Thanks NML for another great and timely post. I attempted to be friends with the ex-AC but it did not work at all. I thought that with 9 months of NC, it would have been ok, but it wasn’t and he had not changed at all. Same friends who are UE and who are cheaters, drug abusers, schemers and generally not good people. What did I see in him?? Ok, he did change a little, during MY relationship with him, he talked about his ex-wife and the mother of his child like she was a beast from H^ll and he was the angel who did nothing wrong, all her. I should have ran when he told me that he took “anger management” classes. I asked him at the time if the courts ordered that for him and he told me no but never told me why he took them (Big red flag). Believe me, I now know why. His temper is frightening.
The ex-AC speaks of his ex-wife like she is Mother Theresa,now. They go to lunch and she pays, they go out of town and she goes along and more than likely pays and she invited him to go to Puerto Rico with her and his child and of course she is paying the tab for that too. He attends church with her too but denied it. I guess since he is unemployed and she is working…..he wants to be in her life because of the money.
Like some of the other threads, I initated contact after the first “lets be friends” speech. I was practicing forgiveness. But he never reached out to me unless he was returning a phone call. I also noticed that he started talking about my body parts and how “hot” I looked, translation “I want sex”. He contacted me back in March on my B-day by sending an email with his contact number and email address. I didn’t contact him. I met him accidentially at the unemployment office. So now, I cut him off and I am not even attracted to him physically anymore and now I am back to NC. Like NML said they make poor partners and poor friends. Lesson learned.
Peace
Myalmostlover… see my ex didn’t do any of those things and it’s what causes me to wonder if I have misinterpreted him and we simply were not a good match.
He never disappeared, was calling me nearly every day right until we broke up… The only “evidence” I have of him not being emotionally committed was that he refused to meet my friends, and then lost his temper so badly one day and told me he’d been miserable for months. That is not entirely stable.
He did play passive aggressive where he would cancel out at the last minute on plans with my friends, or would avoid committing to anything too long term and he did start acting differently I guess you could say… he just seemed moody and grumpy all the time. But is that just the sign of someone who’s relationship is not working?
I have found myself alone this weekend and reliving it all once again, going over every detail and thinking crap, some great woman is going to get this man who did put himself out to take me to get groceries, who was really cuddly, who always invited me along to meet his friends, and who never missed a phone call. I was insecure a lot, I would get in to arguments with him over small things… I keep thinking “was it me?” or was I legitmately having issues with this person because of their cold behaviour to me.
I am so confused and have come to a point where I do not know what was what anymore… other than he left and it’s over. But I guess when I keep soul searching and reading… emotionally unavailable does not have some label like “must cheat and disappear” I need to trust my own gut about how this person treated me, and how I felt frustrated with him.
I am beating a dead horse and simply need to focus on me at this point.
Dazed -
Your (possible) AC sounds so much like mine! Is yours a Cancer by any chance? Mine is and was very moody, hated to socialize (unless on his terms), would make such a stink about getting together with friends that it was hardly worth it. Mine called constantly, very affectionate, we spent all our time together, everyone hated us for being ‘that couple’ (I know – there might be some red flags with this overly togetherness type of behavior too – probably starting with co- and ending with dependant, but I think we were both guilty of that).
The distinction however, is that mine cheated on me and now wants me back. It doesnt sound like you had any indication that yours cheated. I do wonder why he wouldn’t or couldn’t just talk to you and tell you when/why he was so miserable? I think sometimes when men do start looking for a way out they become so crabby and grouchy and they just constantly look for things that are wrong with the relationship so they feel ok about ditching it without really doing the work to save it. That’s certainly their perogative but it seems for long term – love relationships – some effort would be nice before just walking away. Everyone is different though I guess but dont you want a guy who will at least make an effort to express himself a little before exploding at you and leaving? That just seems so childish.
I think bottom line is that YOU need to start thinking and accepting that he was not meeting YOUR needs. No matter what good things he did, and in the end, he had a lot of bad qualities that you put up with probably only because of your insecurities. It doesnt sound like he was going to change anytime soon so your choice was to be kind of miserable, and remain feeling insecure while being with him, for whatever reason (maybe because of his behavior, maybe because of your past, or maybe a combination), or to move on. You will find someone else who will meet those needs and you’ll feel so wonderful being treated with respect and by someone who can communicate to you how he’s feeling, that you won’t ever look back and wonder if this guy was the one that got away.
Thanks QT that is helpful to hear that someone else did have a “nice” guy but who still displayed less than appealing qualities. Mostly it was at work where we had our battles and I could not leave it behind. He didn’t seem to listen to me… He considers himself smarter than me, he is extremely bright, but struggles in other areas where I excel. It was the talking down to me all the time, kind of lecturing me, that drove me insane.
He is a very critical, sort of negative person. I really remember just feeling like I finally stopped talking at one point I just got so fed up. I guess I didn’t notice it but I was always waiting around finally for him to suggest we do something, for him to be in a good mood, for him to want to talk and every time I would cheer up that he still seemed in to things… and then he would be tired and not feel like hanging out. He said I always made him feel guilty when he wanted alone time… but it was always when I finally suggested we get out of the house and go do something. When he finally did decide to go out and do something fun, it was always with a buddy, or when I went out of town. I would suggest a movie and he would say no… and then go see a movie with a friend on a night I made plans.
I just find the behaviour difficult to assess given that he seemed very in to having me around or having my input in big life decisions… but then didn’t want any part of my family or friends. I chalked it up to him wanting a g/f, someone there, but not a partner. This does not strike me as someone who is willing to compromise at all. I also realize that I thought he was “thoughtful” as he would run plans by me but it was always after they were made and then he would ask “does that work for you” but I don’t think it would have made a difference if it didn’t. He was going to do what he wanted to do when he wanted to do it.
The hard part is what you noted about him not communicating any of his unhappiness to me. He just kept going until he saw an out (he changed jobs so we did not have to see each other daily anymore)… I just felt so hurt that he gave up and didn’t see enough good in the relationship to say this is not working but I really care and want to work on this. And when I suggested that… he just flat out said no.
I am trying not to take that personally and say that his not wanting to put any effort in to this is generally how he lives his life… because it might involve compromise, looking at this own faults, or having to meet the needs of another person. I know one of his exes a bit and know that things ended with her because he similarly refused to open but, which he says is a result of her being the wrong woman. It’s always another person’s fault.
But thanks for reminding me that it is about MY needs and what this person was not doing for me. And that I do not have to accept scraps of good behaviour like simply thinking to call and say you miss me. He told me I was too demanding so sometimes I worry that I set my expectations too high about what a partner should offer you in terms of emotional support.
I really appreciate you taking the time QT to weigh in on this. I am sorry to hear about your ex. I hope things work out in a way that makes you happiest.
dazedandconfused: If I understood your 11:04 post correctly – you wrote that he didn’t want to work on the relationship.
As hard as that may be for you to hear, whether he is EUM, EUM/AC, or a just a guy who doesn’t want to see you anymore. It sounds as if he was clear that he doesn’t want to see you.
Did I read/interpret that correctly?
If so, I’m going to give you a small bit of advice: Take him at his word, cry your heart out, write in your journal until you can’t write anymore, call your mom, call your friends, call whomever, but immediately go NC with him and stay there.
It hurts like hell to not have someone return the love you are offering, but if he was clear, he really did you a favor. Really. Grieve the relationship so that you can move on.
If he wasn’t clear that he didn’t want to see you, but his actions indicate that he really doesn’t want to, remember that the best indicator of future behavior is past behavior.
I hope that I provided some questions for you to ask yourself so that you can focus on you rather than what he did.
Just when I thought it was safe to go into the water…ol’ (or is that young?) crazy pants dropped me an e-mail concerning my favorite sports team. I am not on a list of multiple contacts this time — it just went to me. I have had it for 34 hours, and have not responded, so I have made substantial NC progress! Now, the pattern seems to be him sending me, solely, an e-mail every month around the 11th or 12th of the month. I tried my blocking feature, but it does not seem to work. I have read that if you ignore them, they will escalate the contact. I now want to see if this actually comes to fruition. Is he testing the waters by sticking in one toe? Does his computer know that my computer spends a lot of time on this site trying to super-analyze his motive and intent? Has his former praise (”wow the way you write is incredible.”) now the albatross around his unknowing neck? Geez, I wish this person was normal!
Dazed,
Angelina just wrote,
” As hard as that may be for you to hear, whether he is EUM, EUM/AC, or a just a guy who doesn’t want to see you anymore. It sounds as if he was clear that he doesn’t want to see you. ”
From what I have read I just want to reassure you that he is an EUM/AC, not ” just a guy who does not want to see you anymore” and the reason I say that is because many of us are her because of the complete mindf**ck that ambivalent guys do to us when they finally flake. Yours did it with a flip out involving rage and anger, as did mine. You also just wrote about all the red flags you overlooked, leading up to that point.
It is always good to question and evaluate the impact of our own actions when we encounter trouble in relationships. And, there is nothing wrong with someone telling us ” This is not really working,” and then offering a reasonable, considerate explanation of why.
But, there is everything wrong with them doing a complete 180 and raging and/ or negating all that we have been through and then the next day acting like they never said anything. You and I have experienced that behavior, and it is nothing but truly irrational.
The betrayal of maintaining solid ground is a violation of trust, and that is what we are recovering from; that someone we trusted turned out to be a flake, a poseur, an imposter…and we fell for it.
Angelina is right…take him at his word, for it is an accurate side of him, The other side of him, the one that wanted to offer love in the only way he can – companionship on his terms – is probably an accurate side of him too. And therein lies the dilemma, he is flaky, there is no solid ground, and that leads to confusion and trouble. In my book, the only sane answer to one who will not work to retain stability is NC.
If you have done NC, are over the addiction phase, and you are a book reader, I have dug out my copy of the book ‘ Coming Apart” by Daphne Rose Kingma, which is helping me a lot. It’s like a roadmap for negotiating your way through the end of a relationship.
I am so grateful I found this site that gave the kick in the pants I needed to do NC.
Lordy Rez
just think, women of yore did not have to deal with email or texts
sporadic stupid email contact, and forwarded jokes were the bane of my existence with the EUM
just remember, is this what you want ? dolty monthly emails about sports teams ?
i bet not, so…repeat after me…..do not respond, do not respond
Res Juducata,
Please try to stop the site checking as this will only prolong your ability to recover. How long have you been broken up?
Res Judicata,
Check your email tool. You may be able to create a “filter” that you can use to 1) mark the email as “read”; and 2) move it to the trash bin. This will happen before you know you have an email.
There is a reason to call it “no contact”. Just look at the 34 hours of your life, tainted by the existence of that email. Wondering and worrying about what he is doing is still binding you to him, still letting him mess about in your life. You really have to find a way to go No Contact – so you never know if he tried to contact or not.
Choosing to close off all possibilities of communications is a position of strength. With your history, you need a period of “safe time”. You don’t need to be strong, to be able to hold back from replying – you need to heal, and prepare for the rest of your life. Letting him flag you down and crossing your mind puts off the time that you are actually free to move on. Don’t think of being strong, choose to leave him in the past, completely. Choose to find yourself, a you that stands on her own and not someone reacting to the bozo’s actions.
This has been such a helpful post NML! I am so looking forward to reading Part 2!
Peace
Hi Everyone:
I know one of the things that really helped me from this site was NML’s constant reference to “crumbs” and us women accepting them. I know for the most part i would always justify one thing in a man over another. I would say things like: He is such a great father, hard worker or but yesterday he called me or text me twice..that must mean he really likes me. I also had a big problem with establishing boudaries and overall had low standards. I know that I had to raise my standards with these men and not be afraid to do it and also learn to value myself more if I ever expected them to do the same (thank you NML for making me see that!!) Anyhow, the following has helped me, and I wanted to share with everyone in hopes it would help others:
Ok- so every time a man approaches me… I seriously think to myself: “What are you serving”??? LOL
If you keep this image in your head every time……. it really helps to be able to say NO and be ok with it.
You should also continue doing this throughout the relationship
Just imagine “your current guy” coming to the table with a tray… and pay attention to what is on it (an excuse, a sincere apology? a night out where he pays? A phone call two days later when he said he would call you that night??” A man who is married with 3 kids telling you that he wants a relationship???
and then ask yourself……….. will you take it?? Is it ok with you? Or does he need to go back to the kitchen and whip something up thats better than that because it just isnt cutting your taste pallet?
This isnt being a bitch or picky– this is making sure that everything that is being brought to the “table” meets YOUR STANDARDS. And only you know what those standards are (which should fall in line with what would make you happy from a man/relationship)
so does it matter if the guy is sweet or charming or says all the right things or did something good a minute ago but isnt consistent with is behaviour the day after?? Or who cares if he is good looking, has a great job or SAYS all the right things but is only serving you “crumbs”?
The guy can “say” many things….but in the end, its what he is actually showing “Serving” you that counts. And at the end of the day…… you cant blame him for serving crumbs, and then you accepting them. Make him go back to the kitchen and get you something BETTER!! And if he doesnt, doesnt that say more about him than YOU??? I mean would you be serving crumbs to your guests, to your family or to a guy that you WANTED??? It means he’s either lazy or not ready or is used to women being ok with mediocre… nothing to do with whether you are pretty or nice or that you werent understanding enough etc….!!!! I say this because that was another thing i did. I would always think that if they werent calling me back or coming back with something better, it had something to do with me personally. This helps me not only with men and relationships but also overall with friends, family, co workers etc…. (not to mention that since I love to eat and go to restaurants, the analogy was great! I know If I was hungry– crumbs would not cut it!)
Well I hope NML doesnt mind me posting this analogy. The imagery really helps me in keeping my standards up and in making sure that i dont accept “crumbs” from anyone, not to mention its a little funny to have this image in my head about the guy and him holding a tray ready to “serve” me. LOL
Karen,
I always enjoy your input. Love the analogy!
I think it is really sad that we do/did not recognize that we deserve so much more from relationships but accept so little from these men. I think it would be wonderful to find a life partner but if I can not I will be be happy and content with what life has to offer.
We must always remember that others do complete us, we complete ourselves.
LOL Karen!! I like.
A little off topic, sorry NML!
When random men hand me a business card when I am out at Target or Wally world and say “call me”, I don’t take the card. Instead, the phrase, “no thanks” comes out of my mouth. I deserve a man who passionately wants me, not the crumbs of a relationship from a business card.
Angelina and Aphrogirl. Thanks for the input… regardless of labelling someone an AC or whatever, this person clearly did not manage the situation well. I have gone no contact in terms of me not calling, texting, emailing etc. I do have to see him at work, but he has approached me on a few occasions. I discuss business only and then go off in my own direction. I actually went out for a break this week and he stood in one corner staring at me, and I simply turned my back in the other direction… I did not go over to him.
Regardless of EUM, AC, whatever the label this person said he does not want to work on a relationship with me. It is painful, and Aphrogirl as you noted it was the painful way in which he could not just say that but had to pick apart the time we spent together and tell me he was actually never happy. You just feel lied to and like the person was dishonest the entire time.
Either way I really appreciate your input. I am doing ok today and really seeing this person for what they are. The only comment that bothers me is that past behaviour is a predictor of future behaviour. I would like to believe he will continue to be the same but that would also imply that I too will continue to be the same… So it’s true I would like to think that what I saw were true colours, but I too made some mistakes that I hope not to repeat again.
Gale:
Thank you and I agree with you 100%. Im in my thirties now and if I only knew then what i know now. But learning to love yourself is a process, how we get there doesnt matter because the minute we do, our whole life changes and we approach relationships so differently and from a healthier place and I know it has been worth it for me if in the end, the relationship that was most successful, was the one I hadd with my “Self”.
Isabella: HAHA! good one. Maybe NML should have us all post what we each do or our ideas to stay clear of ASSCLOWNS and EUM’s!!
(sorry that we got off topic NML)
Aphrogirl: I looked up that book you mentioned and its really great. Thanks for the suggestion!
We met on the internet, and met after about three weeks. We shared a great ‘net friendship and an immediate in-person connection. As a ‘net dating veteran, this has only happened twice before, so I valued this connection and its related good feelings. Early on, I learned that this boy was carrying alot of baggage: recent separation and divorce, missing out of state children, wife failing to pay mortgage on marital residence, wife moving herself and kids into another man’s home, very sick stepfather, a layoff, followed by a near-immediate new and better job. He has been though it all. I have remained suupportive throughout, but he began drifting in March. When, in previous months, he would meet up with me, he would appreciate the chance to talk about this stuff, laugh, attend movies, and live in our happy moment. I am in a fairly stable period, so I was able to provide comfort or support. Yet, apparently, it wasn’t enough, and the drift continued unabated except for these limited contacts.
In another segment of this site, we acknowledged and agreed that the “dry ink” on the divorce papers is not dispositive unless/until he heals from all of the postmarital turmoil. I understand this, and have allowed him space and time.
I really don’t think that he is dating anyone else, but has become EU due to the foregoing list of fairly serious issues.
In turn, I am in heal mode, and am trying to find other fun outlets (swimming, movies, jewelry-making) while I work on my own personal demons.
Some of the men about whom you write are felony EU, but I cannot necessarily say this about him. I do not ascribe to him the “intentional” mental state, but feel, as I have stated, that he is not currently able to understand the nature and consequences of his actions (inactions?) vis a vis me.
I will not respond to this most recent e-mail. But, overall, his sad situation makes me both vicariously and personally sad.
When he was with me, he would be able to both laugh and sleep — short commodities when he was absent. Why wouldn’t he want that to continue?
Res Judicata,
I am concerned b/c I seem to be reading about his needs in your post, and not yours. I believe you stated that you were ’supportive’ and that he was appreciative ‘to talk about his stuff, and that he was ‘able to both laugh and sleep’ with you, I wonder what you were receiving as far as support from him? Was it mostly about him and his drama?
Did you two talk about how he had hurt you in the relationship at the end?
On the last night I saw him, he said that he wanted to see me more –movies, concerts, etc. At home, he told me how much he missed watching TV and holding me, as we had been seeing each other sporadically due to the host of issues to which I alluded earlier.
When he left the next morning, that was the last time I saw him. He then lost his job, but found a new one in 9 days. When another 10 days went by and I still had not seen him, I wrote a very heartfelt e-mail explaining how, if we were to have a relationship, I would have to see him with “some (undefined) regularity” — I would have been happy with once every two weeks, in light of his other issues, and the fac that I am pretty busy myself with work, etc. I did tell him that I needed to see him to “feel the connection” and to validate that he felt connected to me.
I did not hear from him again until the first of several e-mail jokes 24 days later.
When he started drifting, I could tell that he was not the kind of man who could easily communicate about his, and his mate’s, needs and desires. He never addressed my comments.
This is a funny postscript: I receive much support and valuable guidance from this site, but when I blogged on another site, apparently visited mostly from happily married women (and I envy them), they basically beat me up for not being supportive of, and understanding, during his extreme time of need.
So, in a similar vein, like these posts, I vacillate between continuing to feel sorry for him, and hurting because of his absence and his apparent inability to sense, or care, how I feel.
Res Judicata,
I’s sorry you were hurt.
Doesn’t seem that this man had much of anything to offer anyone. The comment you made about seeing this man once every two weeks sounds as if your were settling for mere crumbs of a relationship, reading your posts you clearly wanted and needed more, anyone would.
The fact the this man did not have the decency to respond to your note shows that he is a insensitive selfish creep. This is inexcusable. Sorry, my opinion!
I think it is still early and you haven’t reached the anger stage where you see this guy for who he truly is. Please don’t feel sorry for him but remember the pain you have suffered from this individual.
Keep posting, it will accelerate your healing time.
Thank you. I continue to read, post, and persevere.
Karen, that is so funny I had just thought of something so similar, that if the EUM was invited to a putluck, he would bring nothing, and expect everyone to be honored that he showed up; that is the level of giving he thinks a big deal. I am gonnna remember your idea, its awesome, I think one needs every trick in the book to recover and keep away from these various versions of EUM/ AC/ man-lite.
Res, its hard to give up a one way relationship. These relationships are defined by our giving and their taking. When you finally take notice, or need or want something, or you might be tapped out, and then ask them for a bit of something you find they are not willing to give. You then might start to realize they are good for very little giving at all, and you need to take care of you.
But, the strong habits are there, of giving to them, wanting to give to them and not getting in return, and thats why it was hard for me to let go of those old habits.
I hope Res, you are in the earlier stage of NC, for when breaking the addiction I did spend a helluva lot of time thinking about him and his needs, that is the unhealthy part I needed to see and work through.
I could not easliy break years of habits of caring and thinking about him. But I could stop his ability to contact me and continue a one sided friendship, and I could stop contacting him to continue a one sided friendship.
There is no way I can be friends as it was, never again. I am so clear on that.
My personal irony is that I have no kids — but have three dogs, 100 plants, and numerous ex-boyfriends that I have nurtured and supported. In my personal life, I am the epitome of the Virgo Earth Mother.
When we first met, he seemed very warm and giving. The cuddling was indescribable — and the sex was not too shabby, either. I don’t think he had much left in him, at the end of the day, after weathering his other storms.
Aphrogirl, I am, in fact, in the early stages of NC. I sent him birthday greetings on 5/11; he sent me three jokes and the sports update since that time, and I have not responded to any of them. I am glad to read that you have worked through some of your issues surrounding the addiction and your ongoing thoughts of your EUM. With additional time and space, I hope to continue to progress.
Finally, I agree that if invited to a potluck or picnic, at present, he would be the one hoarding food and drink, without having arrived with anything of his own to share. The ants would make a beeline to his corner of the blanket!
Wow – the potluck analogy is a good one. Really good. I can picture that line of thinking from my ex mr. wonderful. I can also picture him thinking that the food everyone else brought sucks and the potluck party in general sucks, even though he contributed nothing at all food wise or conversation wise.
QT,
LOL!!! Sounds like he’s a lot of fun!
I found this site right at the end of December. What I never realized, from reading this site back then, was how much time it might take to really work through the EUM experience. Back In Dec, I am not sure I could have imagined not being his friend. Heck, as I write this it still seems unbelievable.
I have always been a slow learner but once I learn something I usually do well with it and this is proving to be no different. I want to offer encouragement to all struggling and say that hopefully your speed of progress will be greater than mine.
For several years, the EUM relationship was making me feel bad and I knew something had to give. Once I got thinking about NC it took me a month to take a stand. It was a blessed coincidence that the EUM did something unusually shi**ty right about then. After taking a stand, it took another two months for me come round to the point of NC. Heres how that went/ is going….NC was at the end of March.
One month after NC I felt the lessening of the addiction…the addiction to waiting, always waiting for things to be stable, joyful, hopeful, better. There was no specific circumstantial reason things in his life could not be great. So, one month after NC I was aware of the lessening to the addiction, and it felt good, but I also like it was only the very beginning of a journey I had to go on alone.
Two months after NC – the addiction was over, the waiting was over but there was so much confusion, anger, doubt. When the doubt was the worst I just kept rereading the letter I wrote that clearly summed up why his behavior had become unacceptable to me.
It is now almost three months and I have almost broken free of his odd distancing ambivalent depressing neediness taking precedent in my life. His presence is still there, but its’ grip is loosening. I am starting finally to get back to me. I wish i had enough control to accelerate this stage but..I am surprised at how little I can direct any of this.
I expect that next I will work trying to understand why I would have given myself so much trouble by trying to help someone else’s troubles. Maybe my life was just too charmed,
) I hope so, because that charmed attitude is what I’d like to go back to.
So, it will be more than six months of my life working though this.
Once I get back there I expect to be a wiser woman and remember that this guy is not willing or capable to be my friend and despite my loving and caring nature that means.. no cards, no calls, no contact.
Hi All
I am new to this site and think it is great but would not mind some advice on a situation. I started going out with a Mr Unavailable – he tried to get intimate with me but never really got there as said a couple of times he has a mad ex (was with a women for 12 years but seperated for 1 year) and issues he needed to sort out, every time we tried to catch up he pushed the sex thing so one day I texted him and said “why don’t you sort out your mad ex and issues and if you are still interested in me call me when done”, he responded saying that he respects my decision and I deserve the best and he is not the best at the moment, but if I am still interested and free when he is ready he will sweep me off my feet as really thinks I am a gorgeous person. Do you think he is being honest or just keeping his options open?
Hmmm..
Funny. taking the analogy of the party. I organized a party for the ex eum… we spoke on the phone, I said, there will some great people there, he said in a very contemtous way..”I don’t care about anyone else”, then heard himself say it and corrected himself..saying ’sounds good’. The party was an event I organized that lasted three weeks. He smiled at me three times, flirted with every beautiful girl in the room, coverted the main speaker and I didn’t charge him. He ate from everyone and walked in as if he had organized it, he owned it within minutes, How did I feel after so many people came up to me telling me how amazing I was to organize such an event, how they loved me. I felt rejected, afraid and I cried myself to sleep everynignt with sadness that I wasn’t good enough for him, he said nothing to me the whole time. It was horrid. And I will say this. I will never ever ever ever invite any man who does not value me for the person everyone else in that room loved and admired that I am. It was a strange dynamic where 30 people stood on one side of the stage loving me actively and one man stood on the other hating me. It was tough in the middle, I allowed him to ruin an event that I should have enjoyed wholeheartedly, it took two years to organize for gods sake and I did it for him, boy what a disapointment and it made me sick, but I went through with it and through it and I am out the other side. I told him after I wanted no more contact. Did he care?….Naahhhh !!. I want a stage full of love and light so I can sing and dance and be adored and adorable and adore with trusting abandon.
My future wish for myself and all of you!! Freedom!
Oh and once every two weeks is worse than crumbs, it’s abusive and insulting!! Give yourself more not less!!
xx peace and love
Miss Satinne… R-U-N-F-A-S-T and do not look back. I am SO HAPPY you sent that text and did not get caught up in a web. This guy has about 3 – 4 years. Read some of NML’s older posts….starting with “How to Spot an Emotionally Unavailable Man”
Miss Satinee, I agree with Kimba. I just finished a similar situation with someone who was married 14 years; separated for 1; and divorced for 1. There is no way that he was able to undertake another relationship due to ongoing issues with his X, his girls, etc. People caught up in these circumstances barely have enough to get themselves through postmarital trauma. They absolutely cannot immerse themselves in another situation until they take care of their own issues. Find yourself someone more accessible, and I guarantee that you will be happier.
Aphrogirl, I think you are a quick stuy compared to me! I´ve spend more time getting over my EUM than I was with him! But I think that is because I am not so much getting over him as I am getting over my own insecurities and lack of selfworth. I still feel like running back to him when I feel low.
We are working on creating better coping methods than running into the first pair of available arms (even if they are only available for a minute). That takes time. A lot of time in my case.
MIss Satinne
My advice also is to walk and don’t look back. Yes, he could be ready in a few months or years, but also maybe never. If he used the words ” sweep you off your feet” I’d be worried cause I like to keep my feet on the ground. Also the reason for wanting to know you… “because you are gorgeous”…were these his words? I want somebody who appreciates me for who I am, not mainly cause of how gorgeous I may or may not be.
Maybe I am tough but the knight in shining armor/ pretty princess thing always makes me feel like an object, and that makes me think of a self centered guy looking for a shallow relationship, not able to make an emotional commitment, not in touch with much but acquiring the friend/ lover and that makes me think EUM and hoping EUM will turn into emo smart and here we are ad nauseum… I have no desire to go there again.
There are dozens of great posts on this site. Because you were questioning this I’d spend some time here reading, if for no other reason than to get an idea of scenarios you never want to find yourself in, and how to spot them early on.
Good for you to step back when you did and question this.wise woman.
TO: Ms. Satinne, welcome to the site! He’s keeping his options open. Leave him alone and move on. You deserve someone who is available now. Also, any man whom you have just met who is pressuing you for sex so soon in the relationship really only wants sex.
To: Assclown Slayer (aka Karen): loved your analogy and your post. SOOO true! It’s about YOUR standards, not his, and is he meeting them. But more importantly, is he willing to do the WORK to meet them. As NML says, does he have both feet in the relatiinship? Is he willing to work for your affection, love and attention? I don’t mean to say that you play hard to get or string him along like some little puppy dog. But setting your standards and boundaries and standing by them. Demanding that he treat you with consideration and respect because you are…simply because you are. If he is a man of any true character or integrity he will see your worth and truly sweep you off your feet.
Thanks all for your words, makes be realise that I did the right thing by pulling back and will definitely take time reading the articles on this site, so next time I will see the signs even earlier!
I am here for a confession. I had a relapse. After 43 days of NC during which I did not respond to my XEUM’s last e-mails/jokes, I responded. I have been reading a book on communications between mates, wherein forgiveness plays a big role. Sadly, one of my best friends passed away last weekend after an extended sickness. I guess all of this has made me feel sad and vulnerable. I had heard from another former friend today after an 18-month absence from my life. At any rate, I thanked him for thinking of me, and making me smile. He responded in a very heartfelt manner, and recalled my speaking about my friend in the past, and how much she meant to me. He said that he seemed to be doing better. He asked about me and my pups. It was an engaging, satisfying, and again heartfelt conversation.
After all is said and done, I still don’t understand why he is not with me (and YES I have been reading these posts for weeks — I swear I have) if we get along with, and understand, each other this well. When he “dips his toe in the water” like this, is it an issue of him trying to control me, or does he care on some level, but is too clueless to show that on a consistent basis? He was married for a long time; divorced now for 18 months, but has very little dating experience (even if he started dating someone after our separation on or about February).
Finally, why does this all have to be so difficult? If two people care about one another, and the separator goes out of his way to keep in touch with the separatee, shouldn’t this mean that they can put this back together again?
So much for the “safe time” which I was admonished to pursue about a week ago, somewhere above…
Res Judicata,
If two people care about one another they will find a way to be together, they do not send monthly e-mails, they work at repairing the relationship. In his phone call did he talk about a reconciliation and say he wanted a committed relationship with you?
This man is incapable of a relationship and seems to be getting some sort of satisfaction by stringing you along, I mean don’t you want more than this sporadic communication? NML says, this type of communication is solely for an ego stroke, or even better sex w/o the commitment.
Let me ask, when he initially pursued you, did he do it through a group monthly joke e-mail?
Please go back to reading and posting.
No. When we first connected on the internet, we had an immediate connection by way of talking about his daughters, my dogs, his work, my work, our favorite movies, sports teams, etc. When we met, we enjoyed friendship and intimacy — it was perfect, harmonious, and two-way. After about 2 1/2 months, these other family issues arose about which I have written much. Over time, he told me that he was “stressed, felt guilty, was depressed, and crazy” about these difficult situations. I remained supportive, and saw him as frequently as his situation allowed. I feel that by him telling me yesterday that, “things were getting better for him” this was his first entree into telling me that he was feeling better about him — and possibly me and us. I fully understand that these are less than optimal conditions, and will keep other options open. Yet, a small part of me feels that there may be a small glimmer of hope out there. I am not attracted to that many men — I hate to say this — but I feel bored by certain people, and sometimes would rather be with my dogs than on a bad date! I never felt this way with him, even before the drama sucked me in.
Res Judicata,
When a guy tells you he is depressed or crazy – believe him. Always. And run. He is laying the groundwork for never being responsible for or about anything. If you don’t run – you give him permission to misbehave, be irresponsible, and to act with disrespect. As long as you stay, you continue to give permission – he won’t change for you, not real change. He can’t change.
Brad K.’s last blog post..br: Dignity and choosing a partner
I know. My logic (professional) side knows this stuff. My emotional side probably also knows this stuff, but is disregarding it. I can’t say anything more than I have already said on all of these posts in this and other subject matter posts here.
My ex and I broke up about two months ago. I broke up with him, but in reality it was he who dumped me – by passive agressively doing everything possible to make me dump him.
In any case, he fed me all of these bullshit lines. He told me he saw us being “lifelong friends” and that he couldn’t imagine me not being in his life and blah blah blah. Well, I made it clear that if we were ever friends, it was going to be on my terms, when and if I wanted it to happen.
So I took a monthlong hiatus, and then I sent him an e-mail telling him my doubts about the friendship – that I was unsure about being his friend because if he wasn’t honest with me before, how could I count on his honesty in a friendship? And he knows for sure he can’t count on me for sexual favors because I cut that off cold turkey the minute we broke up.
He said we would be lifelong friends – but It turns out that when I wanted to talk to him as a friend – he wasn’t there for my ego validation. The friendship only existed for him when I was there to validate his need for affection. What a &*)*)( jerk.
To be fair, I acted like a total psycho when I broke up with him – I told him to get the (*) out of my life, screamed at him, tortured him with guilt, etc. Part of me feels guilty and part of me feels like he had it coming. I really don’t think screaming at someone is the worst thing you can do – acting like a passive agressive nutjob is much worse. (at least in my opinion).
yyy,
The screaming, hostile language – the bridge burning – isn’t polite. Sorry, that sounds patronizing, and I don’t mean it that way. What I mean is, doing things like nagging, screaming, acting out – they change us. It will be easier to flip out the next time – when we are hopefully with someone that we should have more respect for, more compassion for, someone we don’t see as the enemy (of the moment).
Emotions are important survival tools, and creating a strong image in your mind of the end of the relationship can be very healthy. It can let you easily distinguish between what you allowed “before”, and what you will not tolerate “after.”
I can’t really say whether the disrespect and dishonor of the passive-aggressive resistance, or the disrespect of the unbridled shouting spree would be “much worse” than the other. What we do seems more normal and better justified that what others do to us. Otherwise all the bozos in the world would wise up, understand there are better ways to live, and stop being a problem for themselves and others. And we would make fewer problems for ourselves.
You don’t demand that the clerk in the hardware store be honest all the time. You check out what she/he recommends the best you can, you double check the checkout, you go on. Your ex-bozo can be the same way. I distinguish between trusted friends, and friendly acquaintances. Some people I enjoy chatting with, or even helping – but don’t intend to ever invite to my house, or recommend to anyone as a possible source of help. This is life.
NML has written some powerful articles about the hazards of trying to stay friends, or even in contact, with an abusive, disrespectful ex. For one thing, what created the problem in the first place is choosing to spend time with someone that destructive, and then choosing to stay rather than risk living without the familiar (evil) presence. Staying in contact, especially the first few years after separating, tends to keep us in the same space we were when we accepted them – it keeps us from moving on and making a better life. Somewhere in there many of us find some kind of balance between moving to South Dakota (remote and rural, but lovely several months of the year, real seasons, and most of the residents are solid and dependable, I like the area a lot), and keeping a spare set of sheets for nights he gets drunk and comes calling (Eww! Not my first recommendation! Or even my second)!.
I guess what I do recommend is to think about respect, about trust, and about honor in your life and the people you choose to live and work with. That should make his shenanigans easier to recognize and avoid, and help keep lusty thoughts from distracting you with pretty faces and slick talk.
Blessed be!
Brad K.’s last blog post..Mate finances
I’ve been “seeing” this guy for 10 months, he says that I’m “pretty much” his girlfriend when I ask for commitment. I’m a relationship person and I think I just realized that I have low self esteem, when I really thought I loved myself. I can’t believe I let it get this far, I don’t even have his mobile phone number at the moment. He’s an ex con so he’s constantly getting new numbers because he thinks that his phone is tapped. He’s a real idiot. I’ve been thinking of ending it for a while, but couldn’t work up the strength probably because of my low self esteem and thinking that I need his validation because I feel so rejected. I’ve tried to end it before but he didn’t care. Then he cut me off for about three weeks without a word and then came back saying he missed me (he missed something) I felt used, but I had him back and we hugged for while. Anyway.. after reading this though, I really don’t need a dickhead like him. There are a few guys that I know respect me, and say I’m stupid for being with him when I complain, which is all I do. I’m nineteen years old, I can do so much better. I shouldn’t even be in a relationship, I should be living it up with my family and friends. I really needed to wake up, it makes so much more sense to me now. Thank you so much for your wise, brutally honest, but helpful words. I needed to hear it that way! A thousand thank yous!
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