It might not feel like a big leap in thinking to assume that someone who shares similar interests to you also shares similar values. In practice, though, it’s an enormous one. It ignores the fact that someone can have a fundamentally different character and set of desires to you despite working in the same field, or enjoying the same shows, hobbies and interests.
It’s based on a underlying belief that you having these interests is linked to your values.
Let’s think about this for a moment…
Let’s imagine that you’re a wine buff that travels to as many vineyards as possible to fine-tune your palette. You’re also into growing your own food, 90s hip-hop, skiing in the winter. Maybe there’s windsurfing in the summer, salsa at night, and reading about globalisation. You then meet somebody who enjoys all or most of these things. Eureka!, you think.
On some level, in these situations, we tend to imagine that the combination of things that interest us is obscure enough that meeting someone who ticks all or most of those boxes makes them our soulmate. Surely they’re the same as us, right?
Going deeper now, you might be loyal, conscientious, caring, honest, loving, hardworking, ambitious and more. You at some point want to settle down and enjoy a long-term committed relationship. You’ve tried casual, but you value monogamy and are ready for more intimate relationships. Here’s the thing though: The fact that you have the above interests bears no correlation to your values and aspirations. You’re not, for instance, a wine buff who loves 90s hip-hop because you’re loyal, conscientious etc; you’re a wine buff who loves 90s hip-hop and is loyal, conscientious etc.
Those interests don’t speak for your character; they tell you what your interests are. Don’t conflate common interests with character or shared core values.
The way some of us cling to our interests and even personality traits and quirks, you’d swear these were badges of honour, social proof and personal validation. We think that being interested in something means something about us. It’s as if we believe that “certain types of people” have “certain types of interest” (or personality trait) covered.
People of certain character, don’t have certain interests. They don’t. I’ve heard from so many vegans, vegetarians, environmental campaigners, charity workers, etc. They were all perplexed at being burned by their “own kind”.
Sometimes we think that we’re making a statement with our interests. It’s as if the idea of–oh I don’t know–having to stretch ourselves and step out of our bubbles and get to know somebody who isn’t our mirror or who has different interests, is terrifying. Why?
Because we make the mistake of believing on some level that if people don’t share our interests and even our values, then it calls the validity of ours into question.
It’s as if someone being different is a trigger for self-doubt. It’s the fear that somebody with different interests might cause people to reach unfavourable conclusions about us. We see this with people who are scared to go out with someone who doesn’t have the same IQ or intellectual interests. Same with when somebody doesn’t score the same or more on their beauty scale.
Someone could share all or most of your interests and still be the opposite of your core values.
Those interests will ensure that you have a good time together to a point. You’ll also have something to talk about. But, if their values are the opposite of those you embody or are working towards, your relationship will not work. You will run out of things to talk about that relate to adding depth and strength to your relationship. You’ll be with a wine buff, 90s hip-hop loving person who you cannot rely on. They won’t want to be and do the things that stack up to a mutually fulfilling relationship.
If they don’t share your core values, the ones that speak for your character and also the direction and depth of your life, you’re just play-acting at a relationship.
You’re effectively trying to make a pig’s ear into a silk purse. They might make a great ‘casual relationship’ (oxymoron alert) partner, friend or colleague, but to commit to a long term romantic relationship with? Um, no.
We trust people who share similar core values to us.
Not only will you undermine your own progress by pushing for something that they cannot give you or by trying to impose your values on them, your efforts will also undermine the love, care, trust, and respect.
We only have to fear getting to know others if we’re afraid of getting to know and be ourselves. Or we’re afraid of taking action.
I was adamant that I wouldn’t be involved with a guy who liked sports, especially cricket (negative associations with my father and one particular ex). I also didn’t want a sci-fi lover, IT geek or what I used to call a “p*ssy Pisces” (more negative associations). Who am I married to? A Piscean that works in IT who will pretty much watch any sport (currently nodding off watching the frickin football). During the cricket season, he tries to keep the telly on all night so that if he wakes up, he can see the score straight away. He’s recently been watching Stargate Atlantlis all over again (how many times can this man watch these feckin series?). Whatever sci-fi show there is, he’s watched it.
He wasn’t looking for a woman who was into these things (and he didn’t get one).
Incidentally, I rarely hear men saying that they can only be with a partner who shares all of their interests. It’s not as if I needed to be with a man who takes an interest in collecting vintage books and toys, crafting, sewing, a spot of pilates. He doesn’t need to enjoy thinking and talking about human behaviour and interpersonal relationships as well as creating stuff on the internet. We take an interest in each other’s interests, and we’ve gathered shared interests along the way, but what we ultimately share is love, care, trust, respect and core values. This leads to a shared life.
Don’t let interests blind you to someone’s character. Always take an interest in character, values, and having, as a bare basic, mutual care, trust, and respect.
Your thoughts?
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Well….I’ve identified my last relationship problem (or at least one of them)again, thanks to this site. The ex and I shared most interests in common, and I clapped with glee that I’d found him, as my interests and passions are slightly quirky. To meet someone who “got me” sparked the “this is my soul mate” connection deeply, and I hung all my projections and fantasies onto that hook. Turns out….hook it most painfully was, because even though we had some fab times together, that nagging feeling was always there….something’s not right…SOMETHING’S NOT RIGHT! I tried many times to walk away, after it became obvious, he couldn’t/wouldn’t respect, value or treat me with love and give me any kind of commitment. Interestingly, he would use the shared interests as HIS excuse for crawling back, and professing his desire to sort out our issues……”you are soooo attractive and appealing to me, because you love all the things I love”….etc…blah de blah. I bought it, hell, I agreed! I’ve learned a lot since then, having analysed both him and me, reading BR, and challenging everything in my minced brain. I did indeed meet my “soul mate” because I was as shallow, disconnected and unavailable as he was, so on many levels he mirrored me. This stuff is so difficult to work through. Never have I analysed myself with such intensity before, but I know it’s been a long time coming. Ah fuck it…better late than never! Nat, your website is becoming a legend….many thanks x
Yes… I just ended a relationship where values don’t match. It became glaringly obvious after telling them how their actions made me feel disrespected during a debate because they kept talking over me. Despite repeated attempts to notify them of it and apparently I took their actions too personally. Only for them, 2 weeks later, to ignore me for a whole 30 hours (yes you read correctly) in the same house because I disrespected them in public. I apologised and after telling them again that their actions previously made me feel disrespected apparently they didn’t do so. Responsibility hot potato.
I believe in talking to someone and letting them know what’s going on. He believes in assuming, getting people to read his mind and not saying very much. Can you say that is a recipe for drama. Which after the 2nd time in a week having another argument over something that could have been avoided if he had opened his mouth and saved the drama probably could have worked. But hey right and might is so much more important. So that relationship ended.
I realize as i open myself up to dating again how disconnected i was from myself and whats important in a relationship and a partner in the past. I saw a guy who asked me out a couple years ago today and had to acknowledge that the reason i turned him down before was simply because he seemed genuine and nice. I don’t know if he really is but everything from BR over the years and working on myself I’m more aware. Really i had to acknowledge yes it was fear that had me sticking w similar types. When i thought more about it i had to say to myself really what am i afraid of? Trying w someone and dating w self awareness and being mindful of the other persons character, values etc. cant leave me in a worse position than I’ve ever been and with that being said even with all the difficulties I’ve had and poor choice in partners I’m still here, I’m ok and I’m living and learning. I’ve survived. Being vulnerable is ok and better when you have your own back and pay attention. I’m encouraged that it will all be alright. Cheers to all I’ve learned and continue to learn in my life and on BR. This site is a blessing to me.
Two brilliant insights here – I love this site!
I did indeed meet my “soul mate” because I was as shallow, disconnected and unavailable as he was, so on many levels he mirrored me. – Melda.
even with all the difficulties I’ve had and poor choice in partners I’m still here, I’m ok and I’m living and learning. I’ve survived. Being vulnerable is ok and better when you have your own back and pay attention. – HappyAgain.
I think where it gets confusing with a narcissist is that your interests seem to be their interests at the beginning. Part of the mask they wear. So you are tricked into believing you are a match made in heaven. But then it gets weird because they want to mirror all your interests…if I liked to roller blade, he wanted to learn, if I was into art, so was he, etc., etc. I then began to notice that all the things we did, like a concert for example, I would enjoy throughly while he was looking around at who he could attract, flirt with the stranger sitting on the other side of him, and not enjoy anything we really did because he was too busy trying to figure out how to sleep with some random girl. I still am gathering all the pieces in my mind, and continue to be shocked at not only who he really is, but that I put up with it for so long and thought I needed him in my life. Well now I am starting to enjoy those things that interest me without the ball and chain and without worrying who he was hitting up next. Progress…slow but sure.
Ew. That guy sounds so gross. My EUM was bad but I can’t imagine sitting there with someone who is actively scoping out other women. Glad you flushed.
Hi Rewind,
Yes, the narcissist is so fake. He makes you think he is interested in you does so many things that make it look as though you are the priority.
But underneath it is all lies and fake.
Once you are discarded so are all his so called interests that he shared with you. The cds he played for you because he liked the same band are no longer played unless the next lady has similar taste as you.
If I was attending an event then he wanted to come along as well, but it was never reciprocated probably busy taking another woman along with him.
You are not alone I too thought I would never survive without him in my life. Spent many months over the years working on getting him back in my life whenever we were not speaking.
Such a waste of time he does not share any of my morals or values. Has horrible theories that only he can believe as to why it is okay for a man to sleep around but never a woman.
I paid dearly believing our “shared” interests made a relationship that was worth fighting for.
Wow incognito and rewind! i wrote a post about my ex-EU and narc and AC, and then deleted because it made me feel so bad… seeing your stories makes me realize theres nothing unique about our experiences… how he took over my interests and personality, how he didn’t like ballroom dancing but was insecure about the men i would meet (he confessed this later; and there was no danger of me meeting anyone, this was not a place to pick people up and everyone was much older) so very quickly due to endless arguments i stopped going – THEN he read up on it, started quizzing me in front of other people and showing off his knowledge (and I dont know the history of this dance — I had just been an avid dancer for more than two years. So he made himself the connoisseur of something he in fact hated and was no good at, and made me look like a fool. He one upped me in my own interests! AND i stopped going anyway!).
I felt he did things for Facebook and to brag, not for the experience, as anyway they werent his thing, they were my things. We had no art on the walls because he insisted that his unframed posters were the same as my art that i made myself or that i collected – and it makes you feel mean, cuz like why should i think my taste is better, but its not that he didn’t like my taste – he just insisted that if i got to have something up, he should too, tit for tat. End result – blank walls. I couldn’t deal with the stress. So no dancing, blank walls, over time he ceased to engage in any shared interests, or shared friends, if we shared friends including his friends, he lost interest in his own friends! What a sad life I had with him, I am sorry for the person I became in those years.
Anyway – I guess the point is that even sharing interests requires some grace and kindness and generosity.
Good grief, this thread is bringing back memories…about narcissists co-opting interests! I remember my ex N-AC introducing himself to me (a professional musician) as “a guitarist”, when the reality as I quickly came to understand it was that his ex who sang in a new age-y folk band had taught him to play a few chords on guitar. Now that makes me wonder with wry amusement which ex was the surfer, which would explain him having two surfboards hanging in his garage that I never once saw him use even though we went to the beach often during the few years that we were involved off and on. He also often tried to out-musician me (conversationally, NOT musically since he couldn’t play a fkn note!) while shaming me for having such a dead-end loser career. Jesus!
And then there was my husband I just divorced last month who ruined everything I used to enjoy by insisting on coming along only to turn the air black “because he was bored”, or just making it so difficult and stressful for me to have my own friends or do anything I wanted to that I eventually just gave up rather than endure the inevitable drama. It was cool as long as it was HIS scene and HIS friends while I ended up left alone with my own thoughts getting quietly drunk for over 10 years. WAAAAYYY too much work to try to mentally track, never mind participate in conversations in Japanese on topics that had no relevance to me whatsoever!
Yep Brenda, cool so long as it is in their control fully – so nice to read you saying ex husband!
I had the same thing will all the interests – at first all his interests were mine – then once I was hooked he would refuse to do any of my interests and the sh** hit the fan when I finally refused to do the things he wanted. They have different methods but the underlying point is that they need total control over you and when that doesn’t happen – you better watch out because they will do anything including pretending to be into something then knocking it for other reasons – in order to regain that control.
So Natalie is so right – do not value someone based on their interests – value them based on their values.
The value, that he had which I don’t share are revenge, betrayal, lying/charming, coward. And I thank something I don’t – no matter how he made me look to others and what they stupidly believed and acted upon – I will never be a match with him with those values.
Suki, I love how you said it – tit for tat. It triggered a memory in me. That so many things felt like an eternal competition with exEUM. If I said “It hurts me when you say XX” and his reply would be “Yeah, and it hurt me when you say XX”. If I asked to meet on my schedule once, then it had to be “quick” and near his house. Anything I wanted or asked had to be immediately counterweighted by me giving something away too (and he made sure of it). I guess they feel depleted when they give? Or scared that it diminishes them somehow?
Tit for tat vs ebb & flow.
Yes Why and Suki – the tit for tat value – sets up the eye for an eye value – the hyperbelief that they need to always ‘defend’ themselves from you and never let you ‘get away’ with anything in order to feel at peace and feel in control within themselves – which in reality is them attacking you for having normal needs and forcing you into submission or competition in order to maintain some semblance of a relationship – which of course will never work.
Also, how sad that he really doesn’t enjoy the wonderful things in life because he can’t get past himself. A very odd dynamic I observed over and over again.
What good advice! I liked this bit:
The way some of us cling to our interests and even personality traits and quirks, you’d swear that they were badges of honour, social proof and personal validation.
I was just thinking about this the other day – the way that when you’re a teenager, the kind of music you listen to IS your identity. It was for me, anyway. And it can take a very long time to let go of that.
When I was that young, I really did judge people by the kind of music they listened to. There were no playlists in those days, of course, but I’d scan their record collection, their CD collection, their set of tapes, their home-made tapes from the radio, and decide if they were cool enough for me. Also their bookshelves.
I forgot to remember that my core values were actually NOT what you’d expect from someone who liked alternative music that fiercely – that I was actually deeply conservative in many ways (and loved a lot of classical music as well) and in need of security and consistency. No wonder I picked such duds!
And then by my mid-20s (the mid-1990s) I had to admit that I’d fallen deeply in love with the worst sort of 1970s disco music, that didn’t even have any ironic kind of hipster status to it then. Horror of horrors. I had to keep this a secret from the cool ones.
Now I can listen to ‘Disco Inferno’ without caring what anyone thinks, but I at least know who I am, and what my core values are. And they’re not my music any more; they are actually me.
Ethelreda,
I think we do a lot of things like this when we’re young, before we’ve grown into ourselves, in the name of trying to fit in with social groups. I certainly remember trying to make myself like doing things as a way of trying to connect in with people. Peer pressure!
I don’t just think it is peer pressure – when you have had no validation through childhood from ongoing childhood abuse – ‘things’ do become your surrogate parents ie validation – in a world where you have no ability to find real surrogate parents validation and you cling harder to them because their validation is short lived but better than nothing.
I have a weird theory that after wars with many men and women having such extreme experiences of fear, that those left are possibly unable to really express and talk about their true feelings at the time and their children learn as a result to repress their feelings and needs and on it goes for generations until someone wakes up….
It doesn’t have to be wars – it could be anything that brings about an extreme form of fear/trauma and inability to communicate that fear/stop it, for fear of something worse.
Oona,
I agree. In my case I can see back through three generations of EU parents, and it frightens me very much the impact my own EU will impact my daughter. I know I try very hard to make sure she doesn’t feel ignored and isolated as I did as a child, but who knows what else I do without consciousness. Scary being a parent.
I need to review past posts from Natalie to learn how to identify and label the character traits of the woman I’m attracted to. Need to filter out the common interests and find that character. Seems to me character traits are frequently hidden and only appear through actions, perhaps related to common interests.
This was actually a big problem with me and the ex-EUM — not that we had so much in common, but that we had so little. And it didn’t bother me — I don’t need to read the same books someone else does to have a relationship with them, but it bothered him. I often thought he basically wanted a female version of himself. Someone who read the same books, like the same music, had the same interests in languages and art. I found myself going to art exhibits, listening to operas, and going to plays in foreign languages to please him. None of which interested me much, but I thought, “Well, at least he’s not into Nascar and football.” But I expected a least a little reciprocity — and of course that never happened. Meanwhile, I just kept feeling dumber and dumber because I didn’t want to learn a new language every six months nor sit through a 12 hour Italian play (no joke). He would dismiss my interests and joke about them. Of course, now he can’t find anyone with any “chemistry” even though he finds plenty of women who share his esoteric interests. Well, he had someone with chemistry AND who was willing to at least share his interests as much as I could, but that wasn’t good enough. So good luck to ya, AC.
Diane, I did that too. I tried so hard to be interested in his utterly not-interesting obsessions, and yet he was so RUDE when he ‘had to sit through’ something I liked, like a classical concert (only made that mistake once).
And when I told him how rude I’d found it, I got told off and he said that no one else seemed to have a problem with his manners, except me.
Oh THANK GOD there are no more things like this to have to dread.
Diane,
Sometimes these types of people are choppers. They think they are so smart so they need to surrounded by smart people too. So they will try to make you feel stupid and invalidate your interests because they are not as interesting as theirs.
The ex-EUM I dated thought he was so smart and because he took classes at Howard University I guess he thought he was intellectual! I remember one day on the phone he asked me what I thought about the Gross National Product? Needless to say, I was a bit baffled why he asked me this, but I soon realized he thought I was not smart enough and wanted to tests my skills.
I guess because I didn’t want to sit around and talk about politics, I was beneath him. The funny thing was he never graduated from college (not judging), barely had a place to live, and was in between jobs. I just think he thought very highly of himself and if you weren’t as intelligent as him then you were of no value to him.
Oh well, by the way I graduated from college with a B.S. and M.S degree!! LOL
my ex’s interests consisted of movies, food and world of warcraft. And I always had to watch what he wanted because when I chose something it was always ‘bad’. I also gained 20 pounds back that I had lost before we started hanging out. He lives such a sheltered life and I do not. He would always say ‘we both love movies, we have a great connection’ blah blah blah which to him is important…and it was too me at the time but we don’t share the same values. He really doesn’t have any. And I do.
Lynn,
“And I always had to watch what he wanted because when I chose something it was always ‘bad’.”
Yes. The same thing here. To watch. To listen to music. To do an activity. It had to be his way because his way was better and I basically suck (he didn’t say that. implying).
And then he would say why I don’t suggest things we need to do on the weekend together. Because 1. you work 1/2 of the Saturday, you sleep and take naps 1/3 of the weekend, watch sports 1/2 of the weekend and you need your space for some time because you are so busy and tired. And my choices suck anyway. Of course I didn’t initiate and made it very convenient and flexible to where we would basically just meet only on Saturday evenings, hang out, spend overnight and I was gone by Sunday morning. To clear his space. Because he set his standards and fences and managed down my expectations from the beginning. And I obliged and sheepishly agreed. To not appear needy or insecure. We certainly shared common interests back then. Unavailability and insecurity and relationship based on amazing chemistry with everything else lacking in between.
Even if you share common interests or create common interests, it is never enough. You have to share something much more fundamental. But I am wondering… Doesn’t that fundamental come out very soon in the dating discovery, let’s say 3-6 months or so. It’s pretty obvious all the values then. When I dated other people, after 4-6 months I knew 100% I am in and out and I broke up with people. If he had discovered ( I was too blinded to think obviously. I own that and it’s my error) that my values don’t match his eventually why staying then for 6 months more? I guess to share the common interest in sex. As long as you can continue the hobby with no extra dues to pay.
Lesson learned.
I adjusted to many of the ex’s interests. Sports, types of movies, music, going out – bars, restaurants. I always showed interest in his interests. What kind of sports, what books, what movies. Expressed active interest and engagement, tried to learn, and understand him. Learned the rules of the sports and actually, did become interested myself and wanted to join him in going out to watch his favorite sport. He didn’t let me. He said I was lying and pretending. Of course. Because if I was really into the sports like he, there would be no excuse not to spend more time with me, watching sports. He forced me to believe that I don’t share his interests.
I maintained and kept developing my own set of interests, hobbies, ideas, and tastes. However, he never expressed interest in any of my hobbies. He smirked and criticized the music I listen to, the movies I watched, the clothes I wore, the things I did to relax, etc. Just everything was either smirked at, ignored, or openly criticized. Oh my. Did I mention I missed him this week? It must be the anniversary 1 year of the breakup that is making me melancholic. For what??? For feeling like worthless, unlovable, with outdated tastes for music and movies and interests? Like nothing I ever was into was important or valuable. Thank you, Nat and everyone, as always. This is a different topic though, but it reminded me how adjusting and flexible I was. How understanding, patient, respectful and empathetic, while he criticized 80% of me and my life (did cushion with occasional compliments, which I had to fish for sometimes, and “admiration”). Subtle criticism. “Humor.” Sarcasm, “teasing.” But it added up throughout the months. No wonder I am still healing and trying to raise myself up. Wow. But am I enjoying my freedom and doing whatever I like without feeling that something is wrong and unlovable about me. He is the first and the last man that made me feel this way. I am in awe how I didn’t realize this early enough. I was so enamored with sex, which was our main common interest besides some superficial stuff which was not even important. The truth is we didn’t share any values at all. I know my values. Can’t figure out his values were. I never knew. I never knew him. Seems like his values is live by one day and have fun and don’t be “negative.” Meaning, “don’t ask me if I want to be with you tomorrow.”
Actually when he was breaking up with me after me triggering it, he said that, “we are too different. Yes, we share some interests and have out of this world connection and chemistry, but something is missing. It’s not what I am looking for.” So he realized after 1 year he must have not shared the same values as me. To me one of my values was to develop a long-term relationship leading to a marriage. Family. Kids if mutually desired. Have no idea what he wanted. He claimed he wanted a long-term relationship at the start and throughout. Yet then throughout he would say he is not ready and wants to live a day at a time. I was ruining his fun and the relationship by being insecure and nagging about where are we heading. wow. What a flashback.
FLUSH and hello and thank you happiness on my own, with my wonderful interests, tastes, and opinions. Just exhaled a huge sigh of relief. Did I miss him this week? Must be some remaining psychological effects of the withdrawal from the drug. Tobacco fake craving after a year of quitting. I know that feeling because I used to smoke and I quit. It is not needed by psyche or blood or brain anymore. It is a habit of a habit for craving. It’s not real. Addiction for an addiction, which also has to be eliminated.
Yep he future faked in order to get you hooked – ie promised you what he thought you would want – then once you were hooked the real boyfriend emerged – the abusive one – leaving you forever to try to regain the King you thought he really was.
As for the end – you did trigger it but not in the way you think – he probably realised you were about to be on to him/getting wary of the persistant abuse – that’s usually the trigger for illusionists to truly leave – exposure of their real selves – the thought that their true identity is about to be revealed is terrifying for them and any small sign to them in their hypersensitive / vigilent state that reveals to them danger – they run for the hills – thankfully.
This person does not want a long term relationship he was a coward, lier and a con artist – people wanting long term relationships don’t use these values.
You had one lucky escape – whatever you blamed yourself was the trigger to end it – be thankful for it.
Thanks, Oona. I haven’t thought about him that way, but it makes sense and a new perspective.
@Rewind, ugh that sounds horrible! Amazing that we can feel so strongly for these types when there are such obvious signs (in hindsight) that these guys are bad news. Narcissists are the worst! Actually i heard someone say (and I believe) that the worst type of people to date and those who are narcissistic but insecure. They love themselves, but also have to keep seeking external validation (that they are as amazing as they sort of believe themselves to be). Sounds like your ex was this type. Flush! Good luck with your continued healing.
I love this post Natalie! So perfect! Yes, we do get sucked into the trap of confusing shared interests and surface values as character. It can be such a revelation, even in hindsight, to see someone’s character for what it really is, without the shiny hypnotic state of falling for someone and loving the “shared interest”. No contact has been really helping me to see that about the MM I was seeing, and I am finally starting to see more of his bad sides than good. The good stuff does pop up in my memories too, but with continued NC, it is easier to let those good memories come and go without getting too wrapped up in them. His negative traits, however, keep stacking up. Doesn’t matter how much we have in common and like each other’s company if we don’t share the same core values (and he’s married!). Flush to him too!
Despite missing him terribly the last couple days, I deflected an email conversation that I could have engaged in with him at work today. Feeling stronger and stronger! I have something I’m meant to deal with tomorrow that will involve him (on a group email) but am going to try to find a way to avoid being invoked with that as well. Wish me luck!
Yes, I’ve known some narcissists in the past and have been back and forth in my head with my ex OM having narcissist tendencies. He definitely had a harem going when I met him, and from what I know his wife and mom seem to be a harem for him too, and he seems to love and hate them in equal measure.
On to this post, I think maybe its situations like this that can lead us down the path of getting involved with work colleagues as Leanne, Rags Mom and myself have done. When you’re working closely on a daily basis, down in the trenches trying to deliver a project, I think it can give you a false sense of closeness that you can latch onto. Other than that ex OM and I had no interests in common, and that didn’t bother me, but the work thing I think was a dangerous magnet.
Of course now the work thing is nothing less than horrific post break up. Yesterday I had to flatly tell him to leave me alone and to please keep contact to the bear minimum necessary to do the job. Unfortunately events have transpired that mean I’m going to be stuck with him leading a project for me for the next nine weeks. I’m going to put people in place to manage the day to day, but contact will be unavoidable since I’m the decision maker in it. Horrible, horrible, I so want to be left alone.
Great job Leanne in deflecting the email, keep it up, I’m really proud of you, you’re sounding so much better. I’m starting my NC counter again today!
I was thinking recently that it is SO easy to get lulled into a false sense of intimacy and common interests when you’re bonding with people you work with. Probably the most important rule (after DO NOT get involved with married men!) is *DO NOT get involved with people at work!* It is just a ticket to heartache, as so many of us here know. This can be a big problem especially in a field like mine that attracts really good, honorable, trustworthy people and so I thought that everybody had the same motives and was working from the heart as I was. Big mistake.
So once the relationship goes sour you’re left with a big whammy punch to the gut every time you see this guy at work. (And if the guy is ALSO a married man, that’s a double whammy!) As Colly said, and is experiencing herself, it’s horrific post break up fallout. What can you do? Endure the consequences as gracefully as you can. Don’t blame yourself, but also don’t complain that there are consequences. Because negative consequences are par for the course in this kind of situation. In fact they are practically guaranteed. So there is going to be some suffering involved and the best thing to do is simply accept it. At that point you can take a deep breath and use your energy to figure out ways to minimize work contact, and there is always something you can do. In fact, the more you can avoid and ignore and work around him, the more empowered you will feel. I am probably the poster child for having to endure more excruciating meetings, seminars and projects with an ex than anyone else, including a surreal weekend morale-boosting workshop with him AND his new girlfriend where we all had to “bond” at a nature retreat. A new experience in misery, let me tell you.
For me, one of the consequences of a work break-up that I had to accept was that it took a lot of the pleasure out of a job I had previously loved. It was tainted in a way, for a long time. Probably the lowest moment was four months after being dumped when I had to sit in the ex’s office and get evaluated! Yep, this guy was my BOSS for a time – another whammy! I’ve never had to endure anything so humiliating before or since. I sat there and listened to him drone on about my accomplishments, my work performance, how nice it was to work with me, etc. with him completely at ease, almost like he had so utterly dismissed me that he didn’t even remember us being together. He never said a single word about our “relationship.” Nothing, not even hinted at it. I felt like I didn’t exist. It was so awful. I wanted to crawl off into a corner and die. A horrible thing to remember, even now several years later.
So let my experience be a warning, please, to everyone. DO NOT mistake sharing a work environment or professional goals with sharing common interests, common values or anything else. Do not get involved with a coworker and NEVER, ever get involved with your boss. I’m wiser now that’s for sure, and can guarantee this will never happen to me again.
Wiser, I so understand your situation and you make a good point about drawing conclusions about person’s values and character based on how s/he behaves at work. I blindingly trusted the jerk at work because he was an expert in his field and seemed to get along very well with everyone. He was also one of the few to make more of an effort to get to know me when I started in my job, me being a bit of an outsider with different background and knowledge base.
This is why I was in denial for so long about the embarrassing FWB arrangement, essentially being treated like a doormat, shag service and shoulder to cry on. I thought, how could anyone treat me like this when they used to treat me well at work? Also, who in their right mind would want to risk a friendship by chasing for a shag, he could have just gone into a bar and pick a random woman for the job?! Then again, maybe ‘I want to be friends’ was the excuse to get close and pull shady stuff.
NC in the workplace is difficult, but it helps when applied to the extent possible. It gives you perspective on your thoughts and feelings and allows you to reflect on what really happened. I’m so looking forward to the phase where I no longer need to actively avoid the douchebag and am just ignoring him because I genuinely don’t give a s**t.
Oh Wiser, I am wincing with pain and discomfort thinking about that appraisal you had, and the retreat weekend with new girlfriend, just awful.
I’m not so against getting involved with work colleagues per se, they do say that 30% of people meet their partner at work. What I would say is don’t get involved with your boss, and definitely don’t get into an affair at work. Both situations are a train wreck waiting to happen.
It does definitely create a false closeness and familiarity though, its dangerous territory.
Hi Wiser. I really appreciate your post. Your wise advice to readers is on point. The two “no, no’s” I adhere to before getting into a relationship are exactly what you mention. No married men and no dating someone at work. The first is totally taboo and the second ends miserably more times than it works, imo. Thank you for making these points so eloquently and far better than I could have.
My relationship is different from the ones mentioned above. He and I shared oodles of the same interests, and after 3 1/2 years we have the same values more or less. However, there is big “BUT” which leads to not being able to have a deep, romantic tie that most women desire. We live long distance from each other, having met on line. He’s an older man who has been divorced from several marriages. I was married and divorced, then the second marriage left me a widow. Neither of us are interested in marriage again, but even so, we enjoy each other primarily via phone calls and texting. We see each other once in a while. Fortunately, after spending a considerable amount of time fantasizing about what our relationship could be, I’ve finally come to accept what it is, a LDR and no more. Many would say I should walk away from something that is never going to fill my deepest needs. However, unbelievable as it may seem, he is someone with whom I derive much joy, satisfaction, and contentment. We talk on the phone every day and our convos always make me laugh or more importantly I learn something new. He is 8 years older with much life experience whereas I spent many years sheltered and controlled by my second husband who passed away 7 years ago. I have a full life which I enjoy. I certainly could drop this man, but it would create a void. I know he feels the same. We are “friends forever”. I hope to find soon someone to date. I’m not ready for the rocking chair yet and want to go to movies, dinner, concerts, museums, picnics in the park, without it always being on my initiative and spending the time alone. In the meantime, I do a good job of accepting my life the way it is and don’t feel a need to kick him to the curb. We are FRIENDS. I can date someone else without any guilt because he would understand. If this all sounds very EU, we are both happier with this friendship than we would be without it..
My point is that you can “be” with someone in whom you share many interests and common values without harming yourself as long as you know the person well and fully realize that the relationship has its limits. When you BOTH are on the same page it’s okay to just have fun. You both have to know that there is no real commitment and no reason to expect more. Imo, that doesn’t mean the individual is a waste of time and should be quickly flushed. If you both can be truly happy when it is what it is, so be it. It’s very difficult to find someone who is everything you could ever want and vice versa. Respect and integrity are key.
I agree Tinkerbell. I have a guy friend who I like to spend time with but don’t see him as a life long partner. We have a lot of the same interests and even many of the same values but there are some differences in us that I think would create trouble in a relationship. He has his life and I have mine. I don’t want to change him to fit into my plan and would resent it if he tried to change me. I’m not sleeping with him, that is where the line remains. If this get complicated, we’ll talk about it, but right now it’s enjoyable and simple. We are friends. I don’t think this makes me EU. It makes me honest about the reality of what I feel and what I don’t feel. I don’t lead him on because I feel it’s a shitty thing to do to just to keep you busy when you know there is no romantic future. I am dating again though, which is new to me. I admit, I am on line serial dating…..or serial coffee drinking. If I connect with one of these men I meet, then I’ll have the appropriate talk about where we may be heading and if he feels the same, stop dating others if mutual. It sounds so easy in theory, my heart and mind are in the right place, but once my feelings start to awaken it remains to be seen what old triggers may still linger. I’m actually having fun. I put no pressure no pressure on myself which makes a huge difference and I am not filling a void. I am just living and my mindset is stable. Yay! I really never thought I’d get to this point of self assurance. I was a hot mess when I first found BR. Tinkerbell, I’ve followed your story and remember the trial and self doubt with this guy. You have come a long way as well. When we have our own backs it’s amazing how life can be pleasant and enjoyable instead of full of drama and confusion. Cheers to us!
Ha Selkie, I remember, after I learnt to get my sh*t together with the online bizzo, feeling like a serial coffee drinker! Unlike you, although I had become very clear on how I needed to navigate myself in cyber, I was actually not ready to date and enjoy myself, not having my own house in any sort of order and still processing and getting through an experience with an EU man ( and also working on personal patterns in man arena). I was good with my boundaries but as the saying goes was just ‘going through the motions’. I didn’t have my heart in it, all I had in it was an empty void. I lasted about 6 months. Finding and reading BR helped me recognise I was wanting some poly filler for the void, and although I am by nature a somewhat cynical person, I saw that the level of cynicism I experienced was as much to do with me and my non-readiness to move forward with anyone new. Within a week or two of finding BR I stopped online. Am not ready yet to try it again and not sure that I will. I have been lately talking with a couple of friends about looking into attending some singles dinner/dance eves, or something else that involves face to face fun activities, will see though am in no hurry.
LizzP,
This is my first real step back into the dating world in two years. I never saw myself doing on line dating, in fact the idea of used to terrify me, but I wasn’t meeting anyone in real life so I bit the bullet and signed up. What changed? Well, one guy I actually did meet in real life several months ago asked me out a total of four times without ever following through, not once. Last time I saw him he asked me out again (really?), I laughed and told him it’s past the expiration date and smiled. I felt so calm. In the past I would of flushed and said something sarcastic about him being a flake, but I thought…..what would be the point? He knows already. So, I gave him a grin and walked away. Why waste my energy on his sorry ass. I like the way I handled it, not for his perspective but from MINE, calm and very confident. I FELT calm and confident. A new concept in dating for me. So, I figured I was ready to try on line. My self respect is intact and I gain nothing by hiding myself away. It’s time. So far it’s been fun. It’s good practice for me to hear what is really being said, what hasn’t been said (omission) and just basic things I never was good at when it came to men. Well, I have asserted my boundaries and disengaged a couple of times but I felt good about it, like Damn! I really do have my own back and it feels great. So far no complete jerks, I have weeded them out just from their emails. The men I have met, who knows, they will unfold, as will I. I look at it as meeting people, not men. It takes the pressure off. I may or may not find a partner, but I am finding new friends along the way. I went back through and read Natalie’s old posts on on line dating which helped too. I made sure, then double sure within myself that I was ready. I’m ready to be a bit vulnerable because I know I have my own back. I may get my feelings hurt, but it wont wreck me. Not anymore.
Hi Tinkerbell, so nice to read you! Glad your friendship with Mr (not sure what mister you would call him these days, maybe that’s no longer relevant)is still happy and valuable. You are LD now, but you got to know your friend in three D, and from memory there is a lovely understanding and honesty between you, born out of effort and vulnerability. You are hardly the epitome of emotional unavailability! I’m glad to read your life goes smoothly. Sending you warm wishes through the ether.
Selkie. You really get it (me). That warms my heart. I value deeply BR and have gotten to “know” certain folks via your posts and you are one of them. What you have said about your relationship is very similar to the way I about him and me. Once the urgency is removed there’s no pressure. You can really exhale and just enjoy yourself. I don’t want to change him and he doesn’t try to change me. He has his own life which he is content with and the same goes for me. I think it takes a great deal of emotional growth and maturity to just accept that person. No worrying and feeling tense over every little thing. It’s wonderful to not be stressed.
Lizzp. Glad you posted to me as I value both your opinion and Selkie’s. You made me smile because the latest moniker for him is no longer relevant and the previous ones I’d had for him are now inappropriate. I wondered if my story would be remembered by anyone here. I’m so glad that I didn’t allow frustration and selfishness to cast him out because he is so decent. I did tons of work on myself and it has rendered me a sense of peace which is vastly essential to us all. Wishing you the best and thanks for the encouragement.
Thanks Tinkerbell, your posts and insights have been valuable to me as well. We will both keep moving forward.
Absoluely.
Good to hear from you Tinkerbell. My best friend is my 75 year old veterinarian. He’s married, we share some values (intellectually oriented, responsible, strong work ethics, keeping fit/healthy, not very materialistic) and differ on others (environmental awareness, religion, pacifism). As he is married, albeit unhappily, a rship is out of the question. Still I enjoy conversation with him when he shows up in my town. I don’t mind cooking him a meal, taking him out to eat, as he truly appreciates it and isn’t looking to live off of me.
Hey, Noquay, Was hoping you’d give me a shout out. Girl, you are so strong. Your posts continue to reflect little external changes in your but that’s chiefly due to your dull environment. (Indicated this so I’m not coming at you off the wall). But you’re a faithful BR-er and within your soul you are continuing to grow stronger. I’m someone who believes we never stop growing until The End. Happy for you that you have good friend. Having a good male friend is beneficial for us as long as we maintain certain boundaries (yours is married), and accept whatever physical limitations may be present (mine). I enjoy talking to a man because he will illuminate quite a different outlook on almost everything. Their minds work differently and so they operate in a different manner which doesn’t have to be a red flag depending upon who he is, who you are and the honoring of mutual respect. I know you will be just fine, come what may.
My very best friend is a man I’ve known for over 30 years. We don’t live near each other any more but have a wonderful pen pal relationship and serve as each other’s sounding boards for everything. He got married to his wife 25 years ago a week before I got married. I’ve been divorced now for some time, but they are still happily together. I’m very grateful to his wife that she understands our relationship, which is completely platonic but still very deep and intimate on a soul-friend basis. She could easily have shut it down years ago as it would have been within her rights to say she was uncomfortable with our friendship. But I have never had any romantic feelings towards him and vice versa. We’re just deep, deep soul friends and will be for the rest of our lives. Thank God such friendships are possible, as my life would be much poorer without them.
Tinkerbell
Yep, there are changes, but they’re incremental and I don’t talk about them (distancing myself emotionally from work, becoming more of a loose cannon because I no longer care what anyone thinks, becoming edgier, acquiring more power tools, skills). Still working hard, looking forward to the end of the school year. My mind probably works far more like a mans, or something between a mans and a woman’s (intuitive but often coldly logical and up front). Though I do sometimes feel like his therapist, which I keep a careful rein on, the random times my vet friend shows up, I enjoy his company. For one thing, he has manners; holds the door open, helps you off with your coat, holds your chair. I like that. He is without drug and alcohol addiction, at 75, has more musculature than most guys half his age, really stays healthy. Its sad about his marriage but that’s his issue to fix. He really respects my intellect, my creativity, my work ethic rather than resent these things. So different from my experience with Trauma dude who almost blamed his physical issues on me and my lifestyle. Good to see you’re back here in electron-land.
Yep, Wiser, we learned harsh lessons. For the past almost four years, I have had no enjoyment in my job though I work hard, am innovative, am well liked by students. My colleagues know something is terribly wrong, just not what. Yep, meetings, work groups, even going to the damn grocery store, running into his latest conquest, is a barrel of fun. Problem is, and I have no idea where you live and how, often in small towns such as this one, there are NO folk outside of work that one is even remotely compatible with. The educated/professional/environmentally aware population here is miniscule for a huge radius. We colleagues often socialize together, host get-togethers at one another’s homes, as the local redneck bar scene is downright creepy. You get to meet like minded folk from outside only during the summer months. On line is dicey because of risky mountain driving and teaching schedules, often with night classes, aren’t particularly conducive to dating 50+ miles away. Everyone of my female colleagues single not by choice is still single 8 years later. Yep, I surely screwed up but the only other choice seems to be accepting total aloneness until I can leave. So far, my fear that I am too old for a new academic position is being proven true. I am checking out being transferred elsewhere but that’s going to mean a lot of long distance driving on horribly dangerous roads in winter, late at night if I socialize after work, or sleeping in my car somewhere as I cannot afford to maintain yet another household. It also means ignoring my animals/plants at my farm which I am not OK with. What really frosts my a$$ Wiser, and I’ll assume your too, is that these dudes land on their feet, easily take up with another, while we, alone and not by choice, not able to find another, are stuck in this weird emotional hell. Again, I don’t know your situation, but my AC pursued me while HE was involved secretly with another. Had he not pursued, Id’ve completely ignored him just as I had in previous years when he’d been married.
Noquay, I know that you are I are somewhat in the same boat. I live in an isolated redneck town in the east; you live in one in the west. You are near and dear to my heart because our situations are so similar and I completely understand where you are coming from. Both of us work for professional organizations with well-educated, interesting colleagues who have come from somewhere else in the country. There are no decent men around outside of the organization I work for, and while my male colleagues are really wonderful people, they are all married. Every last one of them. The crappy boss ex (who was separated at the time and has since divorced and remarried – also retired and moved away, thankfully) was the only person I’ve run into in 4 years that I had anything in common with – or at least I should say that I had “interests” in common with. I was thrilled to find that much at the time here in the hinterlands. I thought that was a sign that it was “meant to be.” Like I said before, I assumed that someone with his background and position in our organization would be a great guy with similar values to mine. It was a rude awakening to find out otherwise.
Anyway, I want to encourage you to do what I am going to do. Leave this town. Yep, that’s what we both have to do. Whatever it takes. Whatever the sacrifices are. Forget the finding-a-partner aspect for the moment. You have to leave and so do I because we can no longer live is such a narrow, limited environment. The absence of a like-minded community is a kind of desolation. I have experienced a much larger world in the past, and I want that world again. Sounds like you do too. There are lots of reasons why leaving will be hard and you keep writing about them, but the bottom line is that the alternative is to stay there and be miserable. I mean, do you want to still be writing BR when you’re 60 and complaining about these awful mountain redneck dudes???????????
I wish I could say it’s better here in the big city. It probably is if you’re 25. But at my age all the guys my age want younger women. The younger ones want you, but for a fling. And then the few my age who do want a woman their own age — OMG there is a REASON they are single!! You’d think in a city with millions of people it would be like shooting ducks, but it’s not!!
Yep, Diane, I have heard this from a lot of women, even as young as their 30’s. I think most of the dominant culture has become commitment phobic, into hook ups, nothing of real substance on any level.
Wiser, I am doing what I can to get out without putting myself into poverty for the rest of my life. If I wind up destitute, with credit rating slashed, retirement gone, no one will want me then either except for the extremely desperate/damaged. If I pack up and abandon the house tomorrow, with no job, that will be my reality. Ive seriously thought about just disappearing, quietly packing up the plants and critters and heafing home to the woods, letting the bank take my retirement and to hell with everything. If it does come to that, I do have far more living skills, especially woods skills and would withdraw totally. I refuse to live as the archetypical”old maid” nor subject myself to how older, impoverished, alone women are treated. For now, I am working hard on fixing up the house to up its value, applying for jobs when they arise, looking at transfer to get away from the situation although that will mean sleeping in my car many nights just like my undergrad days. Aside from fixing this situation, I have no interest in living in society as a single for the rest of my days. That sounds wimpy, but remember, I am totally alone and companionship means a lot when one has none. Unfortunately, barring a huge upsurge in the economy, getting out may take a few years. On the other hand, if the economy collapses, it’ll all be a moot point as we will have much more pressing issues than ACs. Nope, I won’t be writing to BR when I am 60 because I will no longer be working in academia regardless of what happens. I want to enjoy my old age while I am still strong and healthy, and hopefully, not have to do that alone. Yep, I too lived in a much larger world though I be always been a woodswoman. Larger in terms of like minded community, in terms of true loving companionship with folk of intellect and integrity, culture, arts, literature. I’ve done lotsa weird stuff from fighting mines, being a medic at the WTO protests, saving a coupla lives, doing groundbreaking research. Believe me, the current situation baffles the crap outta me. I am doing everything I can to get outta the current situation, get somewhere where I can live my life, my values, be valued, but it may take a lot more time. Yeah, like you I screwed up big time; however, I realize coming from a vulnerable, lonely place, something like that was bound to happen and also though I was stupid to believe and trust the AC, there was no excuse for his dishonesty.
Noquay, sounds like you and I are sisters in this struggle. I have all the same problems and fears that you do. I’m very glad you are doing what you can to change your circumstances – that’s all you can do. For me, I keep plugging away as if everything that happens depends on me, and rely on God as if everything that happens is in his hands and I’ll be ok no matter what. Not an easy balance to maintain. My motto is “pray for wind but row to shore.” I don’t know about you but I’m getting really good at rowing! I look forward to the day when you write to BR that you have found a new job and a new future, and that your house has sold! Big hugs to you.
Wiser. Ditto from me and amen to what you just said to Noquay. Being older and alone (physically) is not a situation one would covet, but its becoming more and moreso the world we live in. Marriages go bust at an alarming rate leaving even more of us alone. I, like you mentioned get so tired of having to be the one and only driving force in my life. It would be so great to go out on a date not relegated to taking myself. But, what can you do? I don’t know how I ever got along without my cat. He is my child and my boyfriend. That may sound ridiculous but I’m so thankful for his devotion to me. I’M a very nurturing person and love taking care of him. If he weren’t such a sweet animal, he’d be spoiled rotten. But I say, better it’s him than some no good AC. I’m off subject now, but I just wanted to join in with you and Noquay to add my two cents to everything you two have said.
Oh my Noquay…there is so much judgement here, I am almost choking on it.
First what would be so wrong about posting on BR when we are 60? I HOPE that Natalie will be around and BR too because all these insights are timeless!! What would that show? That life is a continuous learning experience….stressing continuous experience!!!
Does that mean we HAVE to have it all figured out by 60?
….we have never figured it out, because EVERYTHING changes constantly and what we are doing is adjusting as best as we can.
I am all with you in creating a good life and keeping the messes as small as possible (debt, unemployment, sickness and AC’s…lol) but often it just doesn’t pan out as planned.
There was a reason why you moved where you moved with certain ideas and plans. I guess it did not work out the way you wanted to and I think you are admitting to that but unless you understand why you moved there in the first place and own that,
you won’t be able to leave and move on with your life.
It is tough when you reach your mid- forties and you feel like you haven’t achieved or created what you desired to. But in that is also a need to control life and the outcome…In your post I also read about a lot of expectations how life needs to be for you. I think it would be helpful if you would identify for yourself what is a need and what is a want.
And then go for your needs full force, open up to people if you desire companionship and stop the cycle of being the victim of your circumstances. It is not easy but you seem to have so much energy and strength so DO something about it:
Form a local meetup group, very casual,
walking/hiking with or without dogs or just brunch twice a month…whatever works for YOU, what you enjoy without expecting too much and what you would do anyway. You might have not anybody join you for a while or only 1-2 people but the key is to get started…just do it!!Use the internet and social media to your advantage.
The thing that I don’t understand is, that you have very strong feelings about being single for the rest of your life (good thing to make peace with that, because we are always alone), because what would be so horrible about that? I don’t want to be too lonely either so I am already entertaining ideas of living in a house with 2-3 close girlfriends (plus spouses) including my sister for my 70plus years. Now I don’t know how much of a reality this will become, but it gives me huge comfort in knowing that there are people who could be companions for the time in our life when our schedules are not ruled by work.
BTW, I have always lived in big cities, grew up in one too and technically there are many more options but it is an art to find your spot and crowd. Right now I am living in an expensive city and I think partially because of that, you need to be coupled or a group to make it. I am not kidding you that every single male person 30+ I see in a restaurant, bank,store (real life) has a ring.
We are social creatures and need others and our greatest longing is to belong. No need to fight that, so I hope you will try and embrace it.
Unfolding
I know well why I moved here; had to go west really against my will, marriage broke up, dealt with breast cancer, being stalked, an attempted rape, all within 3 years in city so expensive to live in that I lived on the outskirts in a cabin without plumbing or running water. The job here looked great at almost double the salary allowing me now in my mid 40s, to pay off the medical bills, help care for my dad, finally seriously save for retirement. On paper, this place looked great; surrounded by public lands, mountains, home to a world famous race series, affordable, seemingly great for an athlete, farmer, and serious woods woman. Figured the place was overflowing with older folk kinda like me; athletes, enviro types, after all tis the land of Ed Abbey, right? I was relieved to be gone from where I was; too expensive, noisy, crowded, a place of bad memories, great sorrow, (though I saw many Grizzlies deep in the backcountry, wolves too). You come to a new place with a positive attitude, determined to make things work and an academics first year in a new place is super busy; one really has little time for much else. I bought a house here because I truly thought I could make things work, would meet a kindred soul, have a life again. Some part of me thought, and often still does, that since so much had gone wrong in so short a time that I almost deserved some happiness, for stuff to start going right. Yep, stupid, illogical, but true. It really wasn’t till the AC debacle that I realized tphat regional values/demographics are very different from who I am, my values, and that very few women fare well here. I fully admit that I screwed up. Truly the only single women that like being here had been horribly abused/traumatized, didn’t heal and are alone by choice. A far larger issue here than just ol’ Noquay. I’d always intended to scrap the career by 60, regardless of situation. Why that age? Because I knew I’d no longer be supporting a parent/paying his death related expenses, car will be paid off, unsecured debt gone, balance owed on the house low enough to be able to sell without incurring 50-60k in debt which I’d never be able to pay back. Yep, after so much of my middle age turned to s@#$, I want to be able to enjoy my elder years while I can. No, no one has their act totally together at any age but at least I had a plan, a direction. Why am I so adamant about not spending the rest of my life alone? I have no family, actually they weren’t really there while alive, I’ve been pretty much without a close rship for most of the 8 years I’ve been here, I was in a very good marriage and know what I am missing, and yep, I wanna be treated with caring/respect, make love to someone I am attracted to, be held, have someone to hold, go places with, talk to, celebrate holidays with, and generally have the same desires as any healthy, normal woman. I am human. We are social animals, no matter how strong, and do not do well in isolation, no primate does. I realize you haven’t much idea of
who I am, but I am far more independent , self sufficient than most men, so if I am feeling down/lonely, something is really amiss. I have tried getting together runners groups, skiers, snowshoers, there are very few older outdoors folk here; most of the time I go solo into the backcountry. Yesterday, when most of the nation was vegging out over football, I ran an 18 mile snow shoe route with a neighbor. I tried meet ups but they’re a 40+ mile drive, and cater to a much younger crowd and their interests. Socialization things here are much better in the summer with influxes of tourists/athletes from elsewhere. I am still looking for jobs, am trying to pay off all unsecured debt, managing my dads estate which means paying his bills, trying to meet like valued, healthy, older folk, working on my house 2-3 times a week (just painted some stairs), teaching myself woodworking, training hard, running my farm, writing, don’t know what else I could do other than submissively lay down and die Belueve me, the words submissive and Noquay do not belong in the same building, maybe not even the same state.
Noquay. I don’t know what I can do to meet a potential lover either. My two options are as dire as yours that you write about. I live in a well-populated, mid-size town near a big city. Perhaps, I’m a bit too lazy to drive to the city a gf to a host of places to possibly meet someone. Recently, my sister who lives in the city had a fabulous birthday party celebrating her 65th. There was a man who kept staring and staring st me from across the room as we were enjoying the live music performers. It was kind of flattering since I knew was looking great for my age. It turned out he was a very good friend of my sister who had met me a few years ago and had not seen me since then. So apparently he was staring in order to ascertain I was who he thought I was. I didn’t recognize him, and he was with woman who was making it clear with her body language he was hers. Another man who was sitting next to me was keeping interesting conversation which I was enjoying, but when talking to my sister my sister the following day, she told me he was there with his gf who was nowhere in sight and in the meantime he was bringing me refreshments. Hmm. I feel that my two options are prostitution or accepting the proposal from my married neighbor both of which are both very distasteful, dangerous and disgusting options. It’s that bad. So in the meantime I direct my mind toward developing my self-esteem to a higher level than I have already and taking very good care of ME. Thankfully, my friend and I talk almost every single day and I continually marvel at his brilliant mind, generous spirit and freely expressed variety of opinions. AND, most importantly, it’s MUTUAL.
I hear ya, Tinkerbell. Tis why I no longer attend functions where there is little/no probability of meeting folk from outside the region. I too get the 3D’s plus one; down and out seeking a meal ticket. Not worth my time or effort that could be better spent improving myself, my farm, my home. Not worth the frustration either. Funny how angry colleagues get when I adamantly refuse to attend strictly local events. I am glad you have someone to talk to.
That’s too bad @colly. These work emails are really the worst! I did have to respond to something today afterall (on a group email), and at first there was a pleasantness too it.. some exchanged jokes all around, but afterwards it left me feeling very cold.
I’ve heard from someone I work with that he is now planning on bringing his wife to the work event I opted out of in spring. Wtf? Who does this? I can’t even imagine what’s running through his head, but I think it’s either that he feels I’ve “won” by finally telling him to take a hike and is trying to re-gain the upper hand. Or he feels guilty about everything that went on and is now trying to present himself to the world as an amazing guy who is so in love with his wife. Ugh.. I can’t wait to get another job!
Good luck this week @colly!
Who does this? A married man does this. He takes his wife to work events, it is not uncommon and actually what he is supposed to do. You still seem to have some denial about this man and who is, so maybe this new info will help pull you out of this. Turn it around Leanne. It may hurt and feel very uncomfortable for you, but his wife participates in his life everyday. He does not make moves with intent to see what Leanne will do, what Leanne is thinking. He is living his life with his real wife. This is what married men who cheat do. He didn’t do this to spite you, he did it because he is married to her. You are analyzing this too much. I think it’s easier for you to believe he is being the way he is so he can affect you, get to you, punish you, because this ( for you )in some way means he still cares or has feeling for you, but the reality is….he is not thinking as deeply about this as you are. He isn’t. The man you are mourning over is a fantasy. You are doing so well, don’t slip backwards over this. See this for what it is. He is taking his wife to a work function and it has nothing or very little to do with you. The part it has to do with you is that he feels safe that you won’t be there. Keep forging through this Leanne. You have so much collective supportive energy from us here, we mean you well. Even if what we say seems sharp.
Snap, selkie! I can’t believe we said almost exactly the same thing!
There you go, Leanne – safety in numbers …
I’ve heard from someone I work with that he is now planning on bringing his wife to the work event I opted out of in spring. Wtf? Who does this?
Leanne, there’s another possible explanation. He’s learned that he shouldn’t get involved with women outside his marriage and in his workplace, and he’s decided to try to put his wife front and centre with his work colleagues in future.
This is a way of protecting himself from future temptation as well, if he really starts advertising himself so publicly as a ‘very married man’.
It would have been nice if he’d done that before he started fooling around with you, but perhaps it’s better late than never.
It’s not always going to be about you. Sometimes it’s going to be about him and his wife, and rebuilding their relationship.
I still wonder why you haven’t told your boss about the fling/smooching/whatever. It would be the simplest solution to so many of your worries.
Doesn’t matter how much we have in common and like each other’s company if we don’t share the same core values (and he’s married!).
Almost right. Put it the other way round, and you’ll make a lot more progress.
Doesn’t matter how much we have in common and like each other’s company if he’s married (and we don’t share the same core values!).
You’ll get there one day. Just stick at the NC, because you’re doing really well!
Etherelda, yes, it really does matter, it really does doesn’t it? The way we organise and prioritise our thoughts. Delving into auto patterns, it’s like we have to not only pay attention to thinking before we act or speak, but also thinking before we think!
Etherelda’s point is spot on Leanne. Seems you’re doing tons better now judging by your posts. Hope you’re feeling happier!
Yes, thinking before we think! Stopping the thought. NC with the thoughts as well which could potentially send you spiraling down an emotional, obsessive tunnel of foolishness. Yep.
I just celebrated 1 year NC thanks to this blog! This article (and all articles since I first found the Baggage Reclaim site just over a year ago) is still relevant in my learning process about relationships and myself. I feel so free and happy. This stuff should be taught in schools. Thanks for all you do for humanity Nat!! You have truly helped me and many others I am sure! v grateful 🙂
Natalie, your articles are consistently amazing and on target, thank you!
This makes so much sense! Many times we get hooked on our shared interests but fail to realize that if you don’t share the same core values the relationship won’t work. I learned that when you are in a healthy relationship, you have your interest, your partners has their own, and you have shared common interests. But the foundation of your relationship must be built on your value systems.
The sad part is there are so many people in relationships who think that because they like the same hobbies or passions that they are soul mates. You know this is a fallacy, because think about it you can have the same common interest with anybody that doesn’t mean you want a relationship with them. This is something that I think people have to learn to discern during the discovery phase of dating and not get caught up in having fun!
Stephanie, I agree. I think judging compatibility off of shared interests is what most people are doing when they look for love. And then shared interests are extrapolated into “you are long-term relationship material”. We DO believe that “certain types” of people have “certain types” of interests. That’s where stereotypes come from. And snobbery (you’re not good enough for me). And reverse snobbery (I’m not good enough for you). I know for me, when I do something I am interested in, I rarely see other people there of my own race, so I just accepted that I am somehow “meant” to be alone. I never thought to look for ways to find people who share my values. Not sure how to do that. Feel like I first need to identify – what are my values?
“I never thought to look for ways to find people who share my values. Not sure how to do that. Feel like I first need to identify – what are my values?“ Interesting that you mention that, Elgie!
When I happened upon BR not quite a year ago, my first project was to select and build an array of boundaries since I didn’t have any. As I set about that task it occurred to me that I was putting the proverbial cart before the horse in that boundaries arise as a function of one’s core values, i.e., you erect boundaries to defend your core values. I was similarly at a loss as to what my own core values were, so that became my next step.
I am working on a blog post articulating my process with this more coherently, but for now my starting point was to take a close look at my epic failed marriage that I finally just ended last month to identify the flash points that would indicate a disconnect with core values. Here are some examples:
I was constantly at my wits’ end with him being a hoarder and a super-high-velocity filth generator that lacked even the conception, never mind the courtesy, to clean up after himself. That told me that I place a high value on cleanliness and good sanitation, and for that matter, on good health habits.
His refusal to go about anything in a rational, orderly, systematic way was anathema to me, as I apparently value efficiency and logic and intelligent use of finite resources.
I realised that his parasitic way of life was in direct conflict with my core values of fairness and individual responsibility to pull one’s weight.
His pathological need to make a big, hysterical trauma-drama of EVERY damn thing totally blew my circuits, indicating to me that I value a peaceful, reasoned approach to problem solving and conflict resolution, and that I have a very short fuse for “high-conflict personalities”.
There’s more, but you get the idea 🙂
Brenda K,
I liked how you did that.
“As I set about that task it occurred to me that I was putting the proverbial cart before the horse in that boundaries arise as a function of one’s core values, i.e., you erect boundaries to defend your core values. I was similarly at a loss as to what my own core values were, so that became my next step.”
I was just thinking and watching videos the other day about how to determine the difference between my core values and whatever it is that’s hindering me. Do I even have any? ha! What have I done to protect my core values and what have I done to completely obliterate my so called values? What changes do I need to make to improve my concept of core values? Are there any that I hold today that I deem in need of removing? How can I improve myself for the better? ….hmph…
“What have I done to protect my core values and what have I done to completely obliterate my so called values?“ Yes, MimiH! In addition to what I described above, I also took a close look at the inverse — how *I* bulldozed my OWN boundaries and subverted my own core values. The first instance that comes to mind, again in the case of my marriage: my ex husband was a very heavy smoker when we met and I detest cigarette smoke, so I actually had to make a decision about the extent to which *I* was willing to allow my health to be compromised and my productivity the next day sabotaged whenever I spent time with him.
Another example was the AC prior to ex husband who often pressured me into breaking commitments to other people (blowing off jobs, other friends I’d agreed to do things with, etc.) — a hardcore breach of my core value to treat other people with decency and respect and honour the commitments I make — because of course whatever HE wanted me to do for/with him was SO much more important (see “busy bees”/”VIPs” from earlier BR article).
Another thought on Elgie’s original post re seeking people with common core values: it seems to me that people reveal their core values (or lack of them) as they unfold, so we have to spend enough face time with them to be able to observe whether their actions are consistent with the values they profess to have. That said, common interests does seem to be a reasonable place to begin a friendship. We just need to keep a close eye on whether words and actions are in sync and bail when the disconnect becomes too wide.
BrendaK,
Yes, very well said. I’ll add to do this without putting pressure on ourselves to find the man of our dreams I think we’re better at making smart decisions if we come from a place of calm instead of desperation. One day at a time, right?
Wow Brenda K!
Elgie,
“Feel like I first need to identify – what are my values?”
Me too. I thought about this for a little while and found it to be a bit blurry in my mind. I have an idea or them but want to narrow it down and find definitive words for the values I have and seek in someone else. Not as easy at it seems. If we don’t have a clear idea on this it could be easy to end up in a relationship with blurry lines and boundaries as well. I know Nat has posts on this. I’ll have to go back and find them.
So, I heard back from the LD guy(long distance guy from online dating site)after one week, we have been emailing and talking on the phone for over 2 months. We haven’t met yet and he doesn’t seem to put any effort in moving us forward. He doesn’t set dates to talk on the phone and when we do talk, he doesn’t set a time to talk again. I’m getting pretty tired of this. Anyways, here is the last email he sent me after a week of me leaving him a VM.
“…thank you so much for your surprise voice mail and email wishing me a happy birthday.
Since I’ve been back it has been pretty none stop with family, birthday, and lots of new clients. It’s good busy and I need a little break. Had a great birthday celebrating with family and friends. I love birthdays because I hear from all of my friends! A tradition to leave voice mails. So I feel very loved.
How are you? What’s new? I hope that things are going well.
I’m going to take a little nap after having a lovely lunch out. A veggie omlette, hash browns, and a bagel. Yum!
Warmly,
his name”
Ok, yes this email is friendly, and that’s all I think this is. I told him that before Xmas, I told him I’m getting a friend’s vibe from him and he said he’s interested in more…yet his actions are not showing it. So, I replied with a
‘Glad you enjoyed your birthday:)’
That’s it and I haven’t heard back.. I think now is the time that it might break. What confuses me is that I just read another dating blog on online dating, it says, the woman has to be the initiator in online dating and that the woman leads the direction of the relationship, ie, she suggests meeting etc. She also says a guy will not have a connection with you until after he has met you. LD guy has not met me yet.
I don’t know if I should continue and suggest that, some of you gave me ideas on that on the last post. One thing I know is that I would like to be friends with him, as he is a good person for me to be friends with professionally. Any ideas how I can proceed? I don’t want to reject him, yet, it’s really not going anywhere romantically speaking.
Whatever, you know what?
I wouldn’t have even bothered replying to that. He could have sent that same email – and in fact may have sent that same email – to a whole list of women, including his mother, his sister, his work colleague, and the other women in his harem.
What stands out for me is that it’s like a form letter. There is not one single grain of personal touch in it that could apply to you, just you, Ms Whatever.
And who the hell is interested in his freakin’ bagel? I’m not, and nor should you be. Fancy patronising you in this way – that you are all agog to hear what this man, who you’ve never even met, is putting in his mouth at lunchtime?
One thing I know is that I would like to be friends with him, as he is a good person for me to be friends with professionally.
Oh deary me. And here the boundaries begin to blur. Do be careful.
a) I can’t think why you would want to be friends with someone who sends you a form letter about his lunch, but anyhoo, that’s your lookout. Haven’t you got any proper friends in real life who are less dull than this?
b) If you want to use him to advance your career, that’s a whole nother ball game. Stop emailing him right now. This has gone far enough, and if you continue emailing, you will be forced into making some kind of statement.
If I were you – and it’s counterintuitive and may be bad advice, so feel free to correct me, everyone – I’d play this as ambivalent as he is playing it. I’d just stop emailing him and vanish into the ether. Then if you need him later for a professional reason, contact him out of the blue.
I have a strong suspicion that if you vanish, Mr Bagel is not going to pursue you. So use that to your advantage.
Ah Etherelda, Mr Bagel, had to smile and it reminds me of a poster called Nigella who helped me and others coin terms for the EUMs we were getting over at the time (over a year past,well passed for me now, and how wonderful this is!).
My intuition tells me similar, there is a pattern to this doofus’s emails, their content and their completely uncommitted, ambiguous style is so familiar from my sojourn into the online ‘getting to know’world back in 2011/early 2012. It is a haven for EUs who love the fantasies they manufacture about themselves. There’s no accountability or need of effort to ‘show up’ when sitting behind their little screens – which screen them from the world, the people in it and themselves.
I begin a new job Monday, one I went out into the world and got after a bit of an elongated application process. And today I had a really wonderful day,a day when I felt my availability to engage pulsing through me, through the simplest of actions – being there for myself and the folk I encountered at the shops, on a walk, with my lovely buddy for dinner. Good energy builds on good energy. The last two years have been momentous for my groundedness in life. Nothing beats the feeling of groundedness that comes with being grounded in ourselves, and it has made me better equipped to deal with inevitable disappointments that come along, and difficult, old and painful emotional (inner) reactions that arise in me at predictable times owing to my life experiences. I am getting there.
I don’t comment often on your comments but always gain much from them. I think you have a gift for cutting through the chaff and no nonsense written communication.
lizzp, I just wanted to thank you for your light and care these past few days. I was working my way up from the bottom of Nat’s previous post, working through and replying to all the supportive, wise comments, and ran out of time (and energy) before responding to yours, which were no less wise and lovely, by the way. Then Nat posted a new article, and I decided to post my thank you here for fear that you wouldn’t see it if I posted it there. Anyway. Thank you, thank you for all you have done for me. You have held me in your hand gently and helped me weather this latest storm. I am so very grateful for your strength, wisdom and advocacy; thank you for being “on my side”. I really can’t express adequately how much it has helped.
And: I am so thrilled that you have so many good things happening in your life these days. I am out here watching you take flight, wishing you Every Good Thing.
Ethelreda
I don’t really need him to advance my career, he’s just a good contact. And, actually, he’s not so boring when we talk, but his emails are not personal, in fact, neither are his conversations. Interesting, in that we have lots to talk about, but not too personal in moving us forward…but that’s why I’m here talking about it.
I may do what you suggest. Thanks! I know I’ve been going on about him, but guess I have nobody else to talk about now. And, it just doesn’t feel right, from a human to human perspective to have those long conversations and then nothing.
I don’t feel clear. I’m currently visiting my dysfunctional family and my father is as much of an AC and EU that it’s no wonder I attract these situations. Sometimes I feel doomed to repeat this stupid pattern or be completely alone, no man. I don’t want that either.
Whatever, if you feel that your conversations with him help you professionally somehow, that’s different. I just hope that you don’t see any personal potential there. Friendship wise – he doesn’t seem to put himself out there. But again, if the conversations satisfy you professionally, why not? I have a guy friend, not LD, but we meet about once in couple months for a professional event and we keep in touch via email at least once a week (he lives close by so not LD), and I have known him for 12 years. I don’t reveal much personal information and I know he is not a relationship potential for me. But he is a great source of professional information. Could work out the same way for you if that’s what you want.
whatever,
“I don’t feel clear. I’m currently visiting my dysfunctional family and my father is as much of an AC and EU that it’s no wonder I attract these situations. Sometimes I feel doomed to repeat this stupid pattern or be completely alone, no man. I don’t want that either.”
That makes complete sense to me. Being with/around your dysfunctional family can knock you off balance and cloud your judgement. As far as repeating the pattern, it makes sense that until you resolve the issues behind it, you feel you will be compelled to repeat it. Those guys feel familiar.
In my experience, the more guys I date like this, the more discouraged I get that things will ever change. So I’ve decided to stop dating until I work through these core issues/compulsions.
Lillian Glass, PhD’s book Toxic Men is a great book that helps “Identify, deal with, and heal from the men who make your life miserable”. I’m about half way through and using it to identify not just toxic men in my life, but people in general. I don’t know if you’re interested in something like that, but in case you are, it might help you to help spot them before you invest any energy in them.
I hope you can get some space, healthy distance, from your father.
Thanks Veracity! I think I have seen that book.
PS. I notice that your imaginary friend has had a ‘lovely lunch out’, but he doesn’t mention who he had that lunch with … A very careful omission …
Whatever, you just answered your own question. It isn’t going anywhere and time for you to bail out. He has a life that doesn’t include you, he’s telling you that in his email, all those people who make him feel really ‘loved’!
Can he really help you professionally? In what way?
If he’s not making any effort to meet you in real life after two months, the writing is on the wall. Time for you to cut and run. All the effort he is making is calling you occasionally and some emails. You’re the perfect girlfriend, someone he doesn’t have to actually take out on a date or make any sort of effort because you’re still hanging around and still interested after a few phone calls, emails or texts. Big boost for his ego. If you called him on it he would be all hurt and offended, “hey, you’ve got it all wrong, he’s never said anything to lead you to think it could be otherwise”.
Your response was good and if I was you I’d leave it at that. Don’t contact him anymore and that way you will see if he makes any effort, if he doesn’t within a few days, you have your answer.
You’ve never met and you don’t know him, for all you know he has a girlfriend, she may have been away and he got bored and sucked you and possibly other girls in as well.
Let it go, you have plenty of other things to do with real people, not some online creep who is wasting your time.
Whatever, I have to second Pauline’s response, not a word of it would I change, as it expresses how I feel about this situ on the basis of your posts. (I think that is so clearly put Pauline. Thank you for ongoing insight). Also, you may have missed (or of course chosen to not respond to) a post I replied to you with on previous thread (I took a few days to reply)- but from your posts about this LD guy (not controlling in RL guy) from early Dec (in the comments on Nat’s character and personality article, I can’t help but think this man was showing some red flags and told you some fairly startling things about himself early on during your phone calls. At that time your gut and intuition was giving you that icky ‘off’ feeling but you were questioning your own perceptions for various reasons. Just saying – seems pretty likely your intuition was and still is on the ball? Anyway, that’s my opinion.
A lesson learnt about myself from my own experiences of LD in online ‘dating’ context and online ‘dating’ in general: All it meant in terms of getting to know someone was that the person was emotionally unavailable, because the very fact that he chose LD indicated that. And I was emotionally unavailable to the other person and myself in my choice. In fact, the emotional unavailability was totally manifest in an image – two disembodied entities weaving fantasies through the medium of a screen (perhaps in your case the fantasies are being weaved through the telephone line?). Now, to me there is just no longer any point in putting to one side the obvious – that from the very get go physical proximity and face to face ‘getting to know’ in Real life is at issue. That does count for something. The growing part of me that makes effort, daily, to stay EA to myself and others, to live as an EA person and the vulnerability that entails (dealing with my feelings, reactions, emotions by practising awareness whilst making real effort in the 3 D world with others and myself – this is still ‘work’ for me at least half of the time I’d say and is far from what feels ‘natural’ given at least a good 20 years of bad habit) knows that when I prioritised, and put energy into both LD entities and local online entities, I was choosing the habitual safety of my EU cocoon.
So in my view, this man enjoys the cocoon of his fantasies and has no intention of meeting with you. His RL is where he actually does his living with other embodies people. He is probably quite good at separating the two. When I engaged in the online misnomer of ‘getting to know someone’ I couldn’t even tell the difference. Nat’s absolutely fantastic and no nonsense book the Dreamer and the fantasy Relationship was so invaluable to me in my battle against the haze.
Whatever. Seems to me you’re making way too much of “whatever” you and this dude have going on which I gather from your post is very little. Why do you say you don’t want to reject him. You have to have some kind of connection with a person before you can reject him. And why worry about how he feels when he hasn’t made the effort to see you in person. Examine yourself. What are you looking for in a relationship? Do you need this guy? No. He’s just some dude to think about in passing but has not proven to be worth the effort of a response. I think that reading Natalie’s book The Dreamer and The Fantasy Relationship is essential for you. I’m certain it will be of some value for you to better understand the many nuances in relationships and possibly see yourself within its pages. Her book has been of great help to me by enabling me to get to the place that I am now with myself and while I continue my friendship mentioned above.
Whatever, he is Mr. Nobody until you’ve spent some time face to face. Anything less is dreaming.
Tinkerbell
Very true..he is Mr. Nobody until I’ve spent time with him.
lizzp
Thank you for all your posts on this matter. Yes, I guess it’s a fantasy relationship, but so was my last local guy that I dated. I feel like I had more of a connection with LD guy than the local guy. However, as you pointed out, we haven’t met, so that is an issue.
I need to review Dreamer and the fantasy relationship. Maybe that’s all I’m doing, fantasy upon fantasy.
lizzp and Pauline, your responses are really helpful to me. Being grounded and being in reality is the right place to be, and it’s actually EASIER than being in a fantasy world.
The other thing about meeting quickly in real life is that it spares everyone disappointment. The thing that used to hurt me horribly was that when I met the man in real life, there was always this flicker of disappointment (some times more obvious than others) when he saw me.
Even though they’d seen realistic and recent photos, they always seemed to imagine I was much prettier than I am (I’m not bag-on-the-head, but I’m not Angelina Jolie either). And the longer we had left the meeting, the more disappointed the man was with my actual looks.
How women look is hugely important to men anyway, but it’s even more so for men who live mostly in fantasy and in their own head. Fantasy Man can imagine gorgeous women for himself, or he looks at them online and ‘takes care of business’. Why should he get involved with a real-life woman who is less than his fantasies?
Men who are more grounded in reality, on the other hand, are more accepting of what actual women look like. They are also more grateful to have a real live warm one in their arms.
This is why I’d rather meet a man in real life the first time. He can see me for exactly what I look like, right there and then, in a non-romantic context, eg. work, training course, shopping, library, whatever. There are no illusions, and I’d rather start from that point, if I’m going to have a relationship with anyone.
I totally agree, Ethelreda. And I refuse to be put in a position where I feel I have to apologize for myself. That’s one of the reasons I don’t date vastly younger men, even if they pursue me. I’m the grrrl you don’t notice until you get a sense of my personality.
Ophrah Winfrey tells the story of how one time she went out without her hair and makeup done. Just a quick dash to the grocery store in sweats or some such. A well-meaning fan recognized her and came up to her and said “Oprah are you okay? Are you ill?” To which Oprah replied, “No, Ma’am. This is just my face.”
Ethelreda, I agree with you.
It is much easier to live in the real world. No fantasyland, no lies and what looks like a Porsche on paper can turn into a rusty old bucket of bolts when you actually get to view the goods. Happened to me a few times when I was online dating. Men who turned out 6inches shorter, 40 pounds heavier with a photo taken 20 years ago. I don’t know what they are thinking. Do they have a special mirror at home?
So much easier to make an effort to get out, meet new people, make new friends, cultivate your own interests, join a social club, take a part time course at college on something you really like … The list goes on.
Turn off the computer, get the butt off the couch and stop trolling the People Supermarket.
I look at some of the married people I know and I can only thank God I’m single when I see what some wives and husbands have to put up with. Never again. Haha!
Ethelreda,
please don’t do that to yourself!!
” they always seemed to imagine I was much prettier than I am”
How do you know that? You are not a mind reader unless they told you that your pics did not match up with reality. And then again, beauty and attractiveness is so subjective!!
“The flicker of disappointment”is your interpretation, why were you so focused on their reaction if you felt truly good about yourself and your appearance?
Maybe the guys were nervous and just relaxing their face, maybe the flicker was the sign that THEIR interest was ALREADY exhausted.
I wanted to let you know that EVEN my experience has been that men would almost always compliment me on my appearance, usually by the time we would start talking and I would share a fun and entertaining story about a road trip in Europe for instance, they would get these glossy eyes and kind of check out on me which was always my cue for, okay he is really not interested in hearing or learning about my experiences. So the date would proceed but I already felt “stuck”in the moment and for good reasons. And rarely there was a real attempt of having another date, even though it seemed to be a good date “on paper” as with them making all the right noises, paying the bill, even asking for the second date already (which was only for their ego and once I said, sure, let’s do that, no further interest- crazy huh?)So PLEASE do not make their lack of interest and enthusiasm about your looks or hobbies or experiences….
it.does.not.matter to them to begin with. They are who they are. I think there are a couple needles in the hay but it is hard to find them and them you 🙂
Your thoughts are so insightful and make perfect sense to me. I am probably at a similar place in my life like you I am 45 and from what I have read we have similar dating history.
Last year I opened my eyes to my own EU-ness and my own need for living in a fantasy world. It was a rough awakening and I was kind of disappointed with myself that I have had blinders on for so long ( good reasons like everyone here, but in the end it only hurts ourselves) I found my refuge in my ongoing efforts of accepting reality and while it is a lot of work, it is also much more fulfilling to finally be in the driver seat of my life.
I, like you, prefer to meet organic, after all, we do not make real friends over the internet on a regular basis, so how should that work with relationships either? Every time I would meet a guy in person, that was the very starting point. I would even refrain from judging the profile too much. I just would not think about it too much, just become familiar with the obvious facts on there and see if they would match up in person. I think we put way too much expectation on those online connection itself and then when we meet for real.
” they always seemed to imagine I was much prettier than I am”
How do you know that? You are not a mind reader unless they told you that your pics did not match up with reality. And then again, beauty and attractiveness is so subjective!!
“The flicker of disappointment”is your interpretation, why were you so focused on their reaction if you felt truly good about yourself and your appearance?
Maybe the guys were nervous and just relaxing their face, maybe the flicker was the sign that THEIR interest was ALREADY exhausted.
Fair enough. But ultimately, I was there, and you weren’t. And it was always rather more than a flicker! In fact, I think I have been unusually blessed in meeting men who are incapable of hiding anything they’re thinking …
And yes, I was also told my pictures didn’t match up with reality! I have had guys see a head-and-shoulders, and be told my height in both inches and centimetres, and then meet me and say, ‘I thought you were taller.’
Nor have I EVER been complimented on my appearance at a first-meeting-online-person. Like I say, unusually blessed in picking Real Winners.
It doesn’t bother me any more, though, especially not since I discovered how much fun it is to water the roses in the morning in my pajamas, and not give a rat’s arse.
Well, somehow it is better if they don’t hide anything, so you know right away what you are dealing with. It definitely tells you a lot about their social skills and I have often found that if those are bad, their emotional intelligence follows suit. Moreover I think it is rude not to get the facts straight (your height) and then act “surprised”.
Ethelreda,
I don’t give a rats arse either what someone thinks of me, my looks, my weight, my height, the way I dress or eat my food.
I look around me and see just ordinary people, young, old, short, tall, ugly, pretty, and I never see Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt lookalikes lining up in the queue to buy a ticket at the movies, get in the queue for the bus or train or having a coffee at my local watering hole. I haven’t seen any of then hanging out online either.
So you saw a flicker of disappointment or more in their eyes and they said something about how you didn’t seem to match your photos, did they?
The fact that they are even saying anything says volumes about what they are really looking for and apparently it’s not a real person. It’s their fantasy.
Luckily I never had a guy make any comments on how I didn’t match their idea they had built up in their mind over emails and phone calls of who I would be but you know what? They all fell well short of the guy I thought they would be too. And if your honest with yourself you also had a scenario running through your head about them, maybe this will be the one … Maybe …
Not every guy you meet is going to be partner material. 99% won’t be, same as in real life.
A girlfriend and I were at the movies one night and she said to me, have a look around at all these guys and pick one you like. Out of the 60 odd guys there I couldn’t find one I would have liked to date. What did that tell me? That I’m superficial and turned my nose up when I couldn’t see my tall dark and handsome standing there. Food for thought.
We all do it and the people supermarket makes it worse because you can keep trolling through hundreds of faces until you find one that is closer to the idea of what you are looking for.
I haven’t dated online for quite a while as I prefer to get out and meet people and get to know them in an ongoing context.
More fun that way.
“We all do it and the people supermarket makes it worse because you can keep trolling through hundreds of faces until you find one that is closer to the idea of what you are looking for.
I haven’t dated online for quite a while as I prefer to get out and meet people and get to know them in an ongoing context.
More fun that way.”
Gotta be quick but just have to say,love your posts Pauline and relate. Thanks for this, it helps me clarify and give words to some of my intuitive flashes that feel like misgivings when I contemplate returning to online. For me, I believe I may be moving towards a realisation that online feels wrong/off/inauthentic for a good reason. I would welcome an intimate relationship and the vulnerability and emotional investments and exchange that must involve. And I know there is no ‘instant’ here, I like getting to know others over time and building on efforts; but it’s not right for me to be in either role as shopper or product and not sure that can be avoided in online culture – and I am not searching for a relationship as such, even though I am ready (or very close to) having the capacity to get to know men or a man in a reciprocal, respectful and consistent way that may lead to that.
Ethelreda
Interesting point
How women look is hugely important to men anyway, but it’s even more so for men who live mostly in fantasy and in their own head.
Sometimes I feel I have been caught in this. Men like the way I look and then put some fantasy on me. Then they turn into AC or EU when I try to get real with them.
I get fooled because I think they like me, but often they like how I look, but not who I am. And they put a fantasy personality on me as well, then get shocked when I am not being this demure, soft spoken person they seem to want me to be. And, I’d love to be that, if they didn’t piss the hell outta me.
Whatever, your comment made me laugh! “I’d love to be that [demure, soft spoken person], if they didn’t piss the hell outta me.” I think it may be a blessing in disguise – at least it has been for me — when guys think something about me that they’ve made up in their heads, and then, kaboom! they fall to earth and realize I’m not that fantasy person. If they’re disappointed, that’s great, because I don’t want them anyway if that’s how shallow they are. If they don’t adore you the way you are, instead of what they fantasize you to be, then they’re not good enough for you.
Ethelreda, lizzp, Tinkerbell
Thank you all for your insights. Yes, I guess I did develop a fantasy relationship. I do miss having conversations with him, not in any romantic way, but just as a person I had lots to talk about with sans the bagel! However, as I have been having these conversations, I found myself not liking the ambiguity of it all….hence the fantasy. Ok, back to the drawing board. And, no, I haven’t heard back from LD Bagel man.
LD Bagel Man. LOL.
..and what’s even funnier, Bagel Man is Jewish!
That reminds me my LD relationship so much. I was in the fantasy though for 7 years. My fault though. He never promised me anything. Just kept politely replying with similar messages like the most recent one from the bagel. Very artificial and happy. It’s just an ego stroke for them. That’s all. Forget about him, whatever.
Thanks Sofia, I haven’t tried to contact him and he hasn’t contacted me either.
Pauline,
I wish I could find a man in real life, but it just hasn’t happened. In fact, I went online and picked this guy as a reaction to an AC real guy I met and dated for a month. We had very little in common and that ended it pretty much as he wanted someone to follow him in what he wanted to do.
After that, I went online and hand picked a couple of guys that I felt I would have a real connection with based on similar values and outlook on life. This was the guy I was most interested in. Then we started communicating and now we are at this point.
Whatever,
I hear you and understand where you are coming from.
The only thing you need to remember is that a guy who is very interested in you will let you know. His actions will speak louder than words, he will call every day, make dates in advance to lock you down in case some other guy is hanging around. He will be there in your face without any prompting from you or wondering if and when he will call or ask you out on a date again. This is what guys do when they really like you. If a guy isn’t doing any of these things, he’s NOT that interested – period!
It doesn’t mean to say he doesn’t like you or think you’re a great girl, all it means is he doesn’t think you are the one for him, it’s not rocket science and it doesn’t mean he’s as assclown.
Now, firstly, what you have to do is wait and see if his actions match his words, hang on to your self respect, maintain your boundaries (don’t have sex with him) and DON’T get EMOTIONALLY involved (most important) until you know for sure that he is sincere and wants you for his girlfriend.
Secondly, you have to put an end date to how long you are going to hang around waiting for him to step up. 4-6 weeks maximum and then YOU dump him if he isn’t stepping up to the plate. After 4-6 weeks and he’s still ambivalent about you the writing is on the wall, he’s not going to be your boyfriend. Keep it short and sweet, “hey —-, you’re a nice guy but it’s just not happening for me. I need to move on, you’re a nice guy and I’ve enjoyed knowing you. All the best, goodbye.” Or words to that effect. You stay in control of you, you don’t get hurt wondering why he isn’t your boyfriend even though you have so much in common, you’re not hanging around waiting for nothing and this leaves you free to keep looking for the right guy. As to when that will happen, I don’t know, no one does.
Keep online dating if that’s what you want but you have to stop betting on potential and eliminate the guys who just aren’t showing any real interest in you when you meet and don’t follow up quickly to see you again, within a day or two at the most. If they don’t, you know they are writing to many other girls and keeping their options open. Like bagel guy.
And like you should be doing.
Above all, don’t get emotionally involved with any guy until you know for sure that he’s going to stick around and he has honest intentions.
This way you will not get involved with fast forwarders, flip flappers, assclowns et al, because you are in control of you. You’re not betting on potential and you are getting rid of time wasters who are just looking for a quick shag, ego stroke or adding you to a harem or any other trick they have.
Hope this helps.
Pauline. What a well-written, compassionate ( as you obviously intended) post for Whatever. You touched on a point regarding online dating that I feel needs more emphasis. It should not be used to meet “The One”. It serves a purpose for those of us who have little opportunity to engage with the opposite sex on a regular basis. It’s much smarter to indulge in this activity with openness, but at the same time, very little expectation. If you think you’ve met someone you could be interested in, agree to meet very soon after you feel sure it’s a safe situation, for example a double date, initially. OLD is, or should be, a vehicle for meeting the opposite sex. Then, there’s a host of variables to deal with afterward. I am not condoning anyone or attempting to dissuade. It’s just my own view based on MY experience. My dear friend that I’ve previously written about was met on line a few years ago. But, I dated (one time) a couple of jerks also. Currently, I’m not online but not permanently ruling it out either.
Pauline,
This is a great post, worth laminating and putting on my fridge as a reminder. Thank you!
Sorry for reposting but I wanted to join the conversation or at least share my most recent experiences which fit within this article as well. Falling for guys with “simiar” interests or experiences (First scenario – GAME OF THRONES, Second scenario – shared childhood). See below:
I wanted to share however my recent experiences of simply having to let go.
First scenario – This exchange was between myself and the guy with a girlfriend. My friend told me that I was wordy and came across resentful and bitter but guys, it just came out that way. Everything like a rushing wind especially when he had the audacity to say that he loved me. I will admit however, that it’s partially my fault given I broke NC a few weeks before when I came across a yearbook picture of him while going through storage. Here is that exchange (verbatim):
J: U miss talking to me i miss u.
Me: I miss a lot of things. Most of all a man who respects me and my time and doesn’t keep me hidden and block me from all modes of communication so that they can live double lives and keep me a secret from their girlfriend. You’re being selfish right now.
J: Wow
Im sorry u feel that way im but i do hope when can be friends again the only reason. U block is because i thought that was what u want. I hope u forgive me n understand i do want u n mylife im mo trying to fuck or anything i don’t even look at u n that way anymore but i do want u to know o love u n i wish u the best.
Me: (This is where I snapped) So is love telling someone to constantly get out of their feelings when questioning the actions of the other who supposedly cares for them. Is love making it clear that you were content in making no effort in us except to fill my time and consume my ear with whatever you needed to get off. Is it love to tell me to get over it, she’s my girlfriend forgetting the things you said to me prior about us living together! Is it love to tell someone to basically drop everything cuz I’m the one with the money and can go anywhere without any clear expectation as to where the relationship would go. You don’t love me, you love the idea of me.
(I actually updated the BR forgive but not cosign graphic here! hehe)
Me: To add, love shouldn’t be strained, it shouldn’t be so hard. Also remember, you blocked me first without any real explanation…but you blame me because you thought that’s what I wanted. I really do believe that you believe what you’re saying to me. So just know I do forgive you. Doesn’t mean that I’ll forget.
Second scenario – The childhood “sweetheart”. Ladies and Gents, I have been on this roller coaster for almost 20 years. What would I call him…..future faker, emotionally unavailable…. We’ve known each other since we were 14-15 and have kept in touch ever since. When he went off to the war in Iraq, I made it a point to keep in touch and let him know that someone was looking out for him, etc. He was the first out of the two of us to proclaim his “love” but of course nothing ever panned out from that. He and I have been essentially tormenting each other with this fantastical relationship we’ve conjured in our heads. Essentially, we would communicate via chat and email until texting came along. Every time we’ve attempted to meet up, he has basically stood me up with no explanation, call in advance, etc. except once last year since he’s been back in the states (which has been perhaps over 7-8 years ago. He works at the White House) So I’ve shut him down in terms of no contact several times but then the holidays come around or he might reach out…..too many times to count or remember, and we start up the convo again!! My issue has simply been that I didn’t want to lose him as a “friend”.
Our last exchange has been surrounded by the idea of my visiting Washington D.C. and as a friend, I wanted to let him know that I’d be in town. I wouldn’t be staying with him or wanting to hang out….I just wanted to let him know as a courtesy (my friend asked me, “he deserves your consideration now?) because I’m not rude so to speak..and yeah, I was hoping to see him, get some help around town if necessary. I’ve been taking mini vacations by myself these days. Looking forward traveling via Amtrak soon. At any rate, our text convo went back down the road of what do we each want out of a relationship. What are you looking for? He had the nerve to ask “You tell me what you are willing to give then we can meet halfway”. That caught me off guard and then he asked, “what do you want?” So not paying attention to the fact that he essentially insulted me I proceed to list all of the things I want in a relationship. He agrees. Then I ask what do you want, and he lists basically everything that is essentially me (been down this road before). I basically said that…we’ve been down this road before and how I just wanted to visit D.C. At any rate, he essentially tells me that he wants me and always has but is worried about how to have a long distance relationship with all of his traveling, etc. Gives me this line about how sometimes I want to be friends and other times I want to be more so he just asks these questions to gauge where I’m at. And I of course counter with how is this on me? His actions have nothing to do with how I may feel or not feel. He can either chose to be a friend or not be a friend. He seems to feel as if he has to walk on eggshells for me. So all in all, I don’t know, but after that I just simply said to myself that he is not a friend. I had been saying it in my mind for the past few days to try and get it to stick and to make myself to never reach out to him again or respond to him (that will be hard as I have through all of this maintained the idea in my head that I truly cared for him and his well being regardless of the circumstances). (Side but important note: In the past few years when we’ve discussed “working” on the relationship, if I were to call, would he actually pick up the phone? Nope. But text all day friends, text all day. And that still didn’t keep me from “caring” about him. Hmph) I don’t know, maybe I scared him by just being me. Not my concern anymore.
Why do I keep fooling with these people!!!! Exhausted!
Update: I’ve also reviewed within the last few days a video on youtube titled, “10 Tips for Improving Self Esteem” by stopanxiety and I have to say that it has helped a lot. Just today, I was able to accept a complement with joy without attempting to downplay the observation. We can do it ladies and gents! We don’t have to succumb to the ugly behavior of another nor our own!! We can actually evaluate our actual values and stick to them. Last night I had to actually ask myself, what exactly are my values, what do values actually look like outside of the assumed or expected values when we “crush” on another. In all of the odd experiences within the last 2-3 years, all began and became an obsessive trip in my head because of “shared” experiences. Personal Trainer – working out and entrepreneur, J – Game of Throes, grew up together in Mississippi, Scenario 2 – childhood sweethearts, shared “crush”.
Woosah folks!!
Mimih23
His words dont add up in context of what you explained. You are right to believe his actions because they are not matching his words. Best wishes on your journey 🙂
Oh my goodness, yes!!!! I think that I am finally well on my way. Over the years, I think I’ve felt guilty for some reason for being angry and not wanting to deal with him anymore. I would have these nagging thoughts….but he’s my friend….I don’t wanna lose him as a friend….etc. Over the years, I had him on my church’s prayer list and just maintained this concern for him. I wonder now if I made him into a project….
But now I’ve finally woken up! Project finished I guess. I really did start to blame my faith because there really is no emphasis on self esteem. But even without it, yeah I believe it has been a real problem. But this time around, without it and focusing so much more on me……I just started laughing the other day about how stupid this has been….we seemed to agree with each other that because we’ve had these feelings since we were 14-15 that our “relationship” was some kind of special. What kind of crock is that!?!?
Feels good to be free!!!!
mimih23 – my dearest girl – I have a horrible feeling about this one, because I’m an old lady of 45 who has been around the block many times.
This man has sold you an utter and complete pack of lies. You say you’ve known him since you were teenagers, but when was the last time you actually laid eyes on him? Do you know his family well?
My bullshit alarms are screaming about the Iraq and White House thing. I would say that, unless you were there at the airport waving him off in his uniform to the Middle East, he has NEVER been to Iraq. Nor does he work at the White House now.
There are men like this out there who develop entire fantasy alternative personas on the internet, and they feed on vulnerable young women. I don’t care how many photos he’s emailed to you from ‘Iraq’, because anyone can create a fake email address and get photos off the internet, or dress up and have photos taken. (I knew one of these guys when I was younger; he ensnared a friend of mine with a pack of utter lies like this).
The fact that he will not meet with you – and sabotages every attempt you make to meet him – tells me that this man is a complete and utter faker. He simply cannot afford to meet you because you’ll find out he’s actually overweight, semi-employed and living in his mother’s basement.
Even if he is what he claims to be – and you have no real evidence of this, but you could try ringing the White House and asking if he’s employed there as anything other than one of the cleaning staff! – he’s not available and doesn’t want to be with you. (The really good fakers always respond to this by saying, ‘Oh, my work is classified, so I won’t appear on any job manifest. It’s top secret.’
It’s time to move on, reassess your future and build a life without this fantasy. I am so sad for you, because I think you really have been lied to quite spectacularly. I hope I’m wrong.
Ethelreda…45…old…really?
It made me giggle because um…
Definitely not!
You have yet to age.
And lots of energy coming through your sage-like posts which I enjoy reading. Good points above by the way re alternative personas, and possible white house employee.
🙂
The giveaway is that it’s always this Navy Seal-type thing with the guys.
No one has EVER in the ENTIRE history of online/imaginary relationships pretended to be a grade 1 clerk in the Department of Timewasting, 110 Dull Avenue, Washington DC. Nuh-uh. It’s always Top Secret Commando Action Figure With Moveable Legs.
Mind you, there are women who do it, too. At one of my jobs, we had a very daft receptionist who spent a lot of her time having pretend online relationships. They always involved her being ‘at the airport’, and doing glamorous international things. The poor girl barely left the state …
mimih23, I’m not saying I’m right about all this; it’s just a sense I get. If you want to find out the answer for yourself, phone the White House main switchboard on 202-456-1414.
If you’re too shy to do that, send a nice chatty letter, inside an envelope, all stamped and addressed correctly, to your friend, c/-The White House, 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington, DC 20500. Make sure you put your return addres on the back.
If he doesn’t work there, the letter will be returned to sender and stamped with ‘not known at this address’ or something like that. If he does work there, then he will get the letter and say something to you about it.
I think sometimes that I may have been a spy in a past life.
I think you may have been. haha!!
I would so feel like a stalker. I have in the past googled him to verify address information and other things like his first marriage and I do have his current address. He has a profile on linkedin which lists him as a Network Engineer in the US Army. No picture listed and no mention of the White House. Looking further (just now) there are people who actually list that they have worked in the White House. So who knows and quite frankly who cares right now.
If I have an issue with anxiety or virtual relationships even if based on past relationships (is it really possible to be catfished by someone you actually know…haha!), I think that my energy should be focused on me. There is really no point in my continuing to ignore the actions or inactions of others. I don’t like being made to feel that my saying hello or notifying someone that I’ll be in town is an automatic, she wants me and she wants me now! Don’t try to chum me up with ms. beautiful and how I wish you could be here with me’s for this lobster dinner (pic via text) and then make statements that I should tell him what I’m willing to give and then we can meet halfway. The history of this conversation…I cannot describe in detail. But in almost every instance, we have gone down this road, he will seem gungho about making plans and being me, I will actually notify you of what I am willing and able to do (as I would do with any friend) and work to coordinate time and place with you only for him to fizzle out. I just simply have to stop the cycle all together and I really believe that BR will help me to remember…it’s not worth it!!!!
…and people who actually list that they work at the Defense Intelligence Agency. Not everyone is keen to social media however…….
….moving right along. Next topic.LOL!
Boy! I would hate to find that out! You may be right. The sheer fact that it’s taken so long to ALLOW the expression to hold in my head, “he’s not a friend” speaks volumes to me considering I’ve said it before only to counter myself with words like….he is my friend….I care about him
…..I can’t just let him go, etc.
Quite odd writing that out. What does that say about me? I know I’m obsessive….I’ve always self diagnosed myself as slight ocd with my thought patterns…..I dunno.
But don’t feel sad! I feel today and the last few days able to actually see the bs for what it is and not give in to the fantasies anymore regarding scenarios 1 & 2!!
Self care, self esteem, have always been a struggle because I never truly understood it I guess. We used to talk about god esteem, etc. This really is just an exercise in a lot of self reflection and learning what it means to esteem self and not some other ideal of what my self should look like. A work in progress but a dutiful work indeed.
mimih23 — your conversations w this guy seem a bit drama inducing… and very anxious… as in you have a fantasy relationship that you are trying to turn into a real relationship for years. But — lets say its all true, and he has PTSD or memory loss or no short term memory left (yes I am being silly to make my point), and suddenly he’s cured and there he is at your doorstep. Guess what? Thats not a relationship either. Thats not even the start of one. Thats a guy on your doorstep, it could be pizza. Once he shows up in any real way, then you start spending time, seeing if it works, figuring out values, asking yourself if you really enjoy this. You’ll never magic yourself or him into a relationship together.
I think anxious people manage to always find ambiguous EU men – why? because anxiety and especially obsessive thoughts are a way to protect ourselves. We are rehearsing something that might happen, we are staving off crises, we are preparing for apocalypse, we are afraid to look foolish so we rehearse conversations etc. But guess what? – in the process of doing that, the crisis does happen, the crisis is that you are unable to really live a life.
NC my friend, you have to go NC. Not with drama, not thinking he’ll reach out, and he just might. No, NC because this is b.s., there is nothing there, and even if he shows up on your doorstep from everything you have said about him AND you, there would still be nothing there. You’d just take more years to figure this very fact out from there. And you must ask yourself your role in this – you have been communicating lazily with a man, pushing him to jump in when he has indicated clearly he has no interest yet keeps saying he is interested. You are both getting lazy ego strokes from this process, there is definitely a pay off for you here though its not clear what.
And you need to work on that anxiety and look for real relationships. This is a fantasy long-term online texting long-distance black hole of obsession which is eating into the time you have for real life.
This speaks volumes!! Yes, I’m finally at that point to rid myself of the fakionships but you’re right…in other areas of life, I still hold on to ideals and become disappointed whether it be with family, friends, my own personal expectations, etc. I believe in goals…so I figure I’m supposed to hold on to that ideal right? It’s interesting that you noted me as anxious…I had a professor mention that many years ago (psychology professor – mentor). I should seriously look into that but I always hold on to that thought that my dad said when I was young…crazy people don’t say that they need help…
I think that I recognize that at least my dad’s statements were outlandish and wrong considering, one, mental instability does not make one crazy and crazy is an insensitive way to describe another..and two, I have to seriously consider help (I have considered and would then flake on the idea).
In an effort for self help, I have been spending a lot of time on my own and taking trips on my own to regain that sense of independence (I moved back home temporarily with my job until I find somewhere else to live and take care of debt). We’ll see.
Also to add, there are two guys being discussed here. Scenario 1 – he was long distance, we met up, he has since flaked and in the midst moved back in with his girlfriend all the while trying to holler and have mutual sexting. Scenario 2 – childhood acquaintance I guess. Puppy love and then of course moved on and grew up. Whenever there were talks about seeing each other again, he’d initiate the conversation and then flake. I’m the dummy that couldn’t walk away. He finally showed up in Philly while I was there for work (as my cousin said, I was easy to access, he didn’t have to go far)hung out, talked, intimate (not all the way ladies!!) to a point and then he fizzled out again. I thought then that we had a shot at So I’ve accepted not crumbs in the past…microscopic parasites invisible to the naked eye I think is more accurate. Yet, even after that, it’s like I’m blind to actions…it’s “I know what I want” or “I can’t give up on them…even as friends”. As if protecting myself will hurt them…is that why?? Like my friend says…and you owe them consideration now…what have they ever done for you. Why can’t I have a basic conversation with a male without there being games played? I can’t just tell someone I’ll be in town and there still be games. Don’t respond next time.
But I can’t do it again. The sheer fact that I was able to say out loud and laugh that “he’s not my friend” to myself to me speaks volumes and I need to let go fully and really realize I deserve a heck of a lot more. If someone is not interested, don’t be. Don’t entertain me. Just tell me no. Don’t play games with me and I need to recognize the bull quick and early.
LOL!
Thats a guy on your doorstep, it could be pizza.
Oh, if only it were … 🙂
Yeah….in this case and maybe in others, she’s right somewhat. If we only looked at them in that way. Hi and Bye. But of course if we did that to begin with, we wouldn’t have to get all of our angst out in safe places like Baggage Reclaim, etc.
mimih23, very interesting comments on anxiety and your family’s reaction to it, which is a very important barrier sometimes in our growth. [from my own experience, get real help, as much of it as you can afford. Therapy is worth its weight in gold, getting it doesnt make you crazy, it makes you terribly terribly wise. And counseling takes time – if you can afford it, do it forever, a solid chunk for 2-3 years, and then tune ups forever. CBT Is quicker, so if you’re flaking, then at least do the 5-6 sessions of that – its specifically useful for anxiety, its very action oriented, and yes if they want you to keep a journal, do ‘homework’ as they call it – do it. these are professionals, get a good referral, you cannot imagine what a good therapist can do for you].
You know that feeling you get? that itchy skin crawly feeling? Why won’t he call? He said 10:30, its 3 in the morning, where is he, i called 10 times, where where where, why did he say this thing, i said i didn’t want to talk to him tonight did he think i meant never, did i ruin it by walking away when he told me he wasn’t ready? Is there magic in my fingers that I am unable to access? I think I’ll call him one more time. Your thoughts are racing, you think the world depends on this phone call.
How did that anxious woman meet such a useless bleepity bleep that won’t even call when he says he will? Oh, did she become anxious as she stayed with him? Does he keep avoiding because he likes ignoring women then feeling hounded when they inevitably hound him? DOes he pick anxious women because he knows the non-anxious ones are going to laugh their heads off at his shenanigans?
Anxious crazy people find avoiders. They find withdrawers, They find empty shells that allow them to exercise their anxiety. You need to step away from ambiguity and silly boys because they will make you more anxious. Forget any other reason – you need distance for your mental health. Our minds and hearts are terribly fragile, and we dont need the strain.
Where’s the LIKE…scratch that….LOVE button. That is exactly what I do. It’s been hindering my ability to work as I get caught up in details. I some times wear it as a badge of honor but in my current job, it’s proven detrimental. Thanks Suki.
+1000
I have to totally agree. I’m a writer and have written quite a bit about psychopaths (narcs, socs, etc). One of the main red flags is that they say they are with the government, or in the military. Definitely do your due diligence!
After all this time, could it have all been FAKE!?!?! wow…. he supposedly went off after high school. I think he’s in it and may not be working in the capacity that he’s lead me to believe but man….
What I think lead him to break his M.O. when he came out last year to see me in Philly was the fact that I fussed about him to his cousin (I had never done that before). His cousin thinks he’s bipolar or off. He apparently does some of the same things to them he says but he was like, Mirian just be patient with him. But I do recall (just went back and looked at the facebook message between me and his cousin) that when he said that, I felt sorry for him which made me say, I can’t just give up on him…and hence the cycle had begun once again. This time he came out to see me, then fizzled and I was heartbroken that I had gotten caught up again. (wrote a note to myself that I needed to stop breaking my own heart…)
See!!!! I should just do what’s right for me.
mimih, maybe he’s in jail. I wonder if there’s a way to find out …
So we have a possibly bipolar guy who has been married before, and who may or may not be a total fantasist, AND who is not interested enough in you to meet you again.
Yes. Definitely time to move on, mimih23.
Are you going to try No Contact with all these doofuses in your life, and try calming down and enjoying the silence for a while?
Ethelreda the Unready oh yes I am.
Why this was so sweet to read! (the bit about you and E(m?)). I am very happy for you. Hopefully something this good will happen to me too, very soon. Best wishes, V.
I feel so ashamed and disgusted of my self. This happily girlfriended exEUM that I have mentioned in my other comments is someone I work with within one company. We see each other only once in a few months (but exchange work emails regularly with other people in cc). Now that we had one of those personal meetings (vs emails) and a work discussion totally ended up being a personal rant (on my side) and him telling me he does not understand why I am so fearful and do not trust his work proposals. I told him the way it is – because he tricked me once, told me to hang on, and betrayed every ounce of trust. And, I said, I don’t see any reason why he would not do it again.
Ladies here called me wise so I feel as if I’ve let a whole pool of wonderful supportive voices here down. By engaging in this personal exchange. And I am utterly repulsed with myself, repulsed with him, astonished at how he now twists history and actual facts and blames ME for that. And as I was talking to him, I felt so anxious (and immediately recognized this feeling which was persistent while we were “together”). And while stupidly trying to reason with him, get him to see that he can’t just expect me to have amnesia (yes, I’ve fallen down all the pits NML says us to avoid – i.e. the over explaining) and treat him like a totally reliable pal. Anyway, I sat there and the second plain of my thoughts was that – I cannot believe that this lying piece of coward used to make me feel so aroused around him and I desired him and admired his mind. And I cannot believe that I thought that our common interests were OH SO IMPORTANT and were a sign that we were meant for each other. Here’s a lesson to wiser people out there: we still have many interests in common but I don’t have any interest in being around anyone who does not account for their actions and then pretends it never happened. He actually did tell me – when I brought a specific episode from the past – “I don’t really remember this happening but considering everything and how you acted and talked, YOU MUST HAVE DONE something to make me do it. And I am sure now you’re just pulling it out of the context”. Common interests do not equal common values. Common interests are not a guarantee that a person will treat you with respect and integrity. I am back to NC and back to licking my wounds. I hope this story might be a lesson to someone still on the fence regarding common interests vs values ratio.
Why,
Whoa. Slow way down. Being wise is a process. I dont think anyone is let down by this small slip up. No big deal. Pull it back together and keep it moving. You’re ok and on you go. 🙂 This is not worth the emotional investment. Turn it around say to yourself “Why what a good job youve been doing. Youve come so far. Im proud of you. It will all be ok. I love you and accept you.” Then breathe and rest. 🙂
Aw, Why, don’t be too hard on yourself. You broke NC, that’s all, after a long run of doing really well. Get back on the horse.
The guy has a girlfriend, so his fooling around with you was the first and only piece of evidence you ever needed that he was not going to treat you with respect and integrity. Everything else just follows from that.
Keep strong, and keep trying.
Why, no more talking, no more explaining. There is never any point telling someone off, especially someone you are no longer involved with, especially someone at work. There is no point telling someone that you dont trust them, its drama creation. Unless you are totally in control of your emotions, maybe then its okay – its okay sort of if you dont want validation from them or change, if its just a giant eff off, then fine. If you truly mean it, in some ‘oh you hurt me kind of way’ — no, and no. Maybe its like Spanish Jackie said — without that icy contempt, you shouldn’t be engaging, because you’ll be on the wrong foot, and want to do some more explaining to get on the right foot, and ad nauseam.
I hear from you (and please correct me if i am reading this wrong) that you seem to want validation – you want him to agree with you, ‘yes i am untrustworthy and you dont trust my proposals’. You are hoping also that somehow he will also say ‘no more of that, i am now fully trustworthy and everything will be fine, also past hurts will be healed’. In fact, this is not whats going to happen.
If someone is not worth your trust, then they are not worth your explanations.
Because your explanations are predicated on trust; trust that the person sees you independent of their own narcy ego, trust that they care enough to see the best for you, trust that they are mature enough to deal with criticism etc etc.
AND if you feel ever again that he has betrayed you yet again? Silent treatment. You are a strong person though sometimes you feel weak inside (like everyone else in the world) – dont let him see that weakness. Spine straight, head up, you’ve got no more fudgesicles to give.
Happy again, Ethelreda, Suki – thank you so much, gals. *Hugs* Your words and support mean a lot.
Why. I heartily second what Suki has said. If you feel and in fact he has, totally destroyed your trust, there is no chance for redeeming this relationship. You only demean yourself by giving it another go. Make up your mind to maintain NC. He should be (pardon the expression) “dead in the water” to you. You can stick it out. Believe in yourself.
Tinkerbell, thank you so much. I really appreciate what you say here on BR (I am a long time reader and only recent poster). You are absolutely right: I don’t feel anything left in me in terms of trust, I am an overgiever and even with this, I still cannot find anything. He says that I cannot trust him in business and it should be entirely different and that he never betrayed me anyway. I fall back, start doubting MYSELF and my own judgement of what I feel and thus think I am being selfish or, worse, acting out of revenge for not trusting his new business plans for the company. You are right. Phew. Back to my own priorities and back to being attentive to myself. Thanks so much, Tinkerbell.
He makes it look as if it is about the trust he cares but he is only concerned with not having to face the consequences of his actions and the impact they had on everything.
After everyone’s replies I also came with a legal plan that if he wants to proceed with this new venture then I’ll contractually obligate him to have guarantees and penalty in case of damages (including wasted time). Not a revenge at all, just want neither others, nor myself waste our time on flip flopping and fantasies and have a back up if it all goes tits up).
Why. We’ve all been where you are. The overgiving and self doubt are synonymous with low self-esteem. But, hark dear girl. There’s hope for you just like there’s been hope for the rest us. Natalie’s mantra is put YOU FIRST. Once you start doing that it really does get easier over time. It feels so ironic for ME to be saying this to YOU because I was a wreck when I first started here 4 years ago. Stay with BR. Read all of Natalie’s books, her posts, other posters comments. You can supplement with certain self help books, the ones recommended by others here. Lastly, therapy can be tremendous help. I’ve done it all. Still, I’m far from perfect which is not attainable anyway. There’s so much support for you here. Establish your boundaries and keep them in place. Wishing you the best.
I was so very happy when I met my ex EUM – he loves nature as I do and we spent many truly wonderful times together exploring and hiking, birdwatching, kayaking… I have been married twice to men who had zero interest in the outdoors, and I know now that’s a deal breaker. It’s just a common interest, I know, but an essential one for me. However… the article struck home. Several months into dating we started to get serious, at which point he broke up without warning. Two days earlier we had signed a 2 year contract for a shared phone plan! I was devastated, it was horrible to be blindsided by someone I trusted and even worse, at 52 it was the first time I had ever been in love. It’s the worst pain I’ve ever experienced, and I’ve been through a lot. Anyway, the moral of the story is – I know I can’t be happy with a man who doesn’t share my love of the outdoors, but that common interest is still not going make a relationship with an EUM work. Sadly, I just didn’t realize he was EUM until it was over. I don’t have much hope I will find love again in the future – it will take a long time to get over this. But at least I know better now what to look out for thanks to Natalie’s articles.
Sandy,
Sounds like you loved deeply which is why you are hurting deeply. They say your first love is the hardest to get over and I consider this to be your situation (first time you were in love) so please do take good care of yourself in the meanwhile and reassuring to know you have come off knowing better now and that is hope in itself so all is not lost.
I agree. I have peers who share the same interests as me, and I’ve been told that maybe I should go meet someone with a similar background and education who I could talk well with. I don’t doubt that it’s easier to relate to someone with shared interests and similar backgrounds/education, but it also doesn’t mean that it’ll make for a great relationship, either.
So much of this. I’ve met people who shared the same interests as me and fallen in love HARD…..only to find out that we didn’t share the same core values later. Had to end things before it even began. Or my ex: we shared the same beliefs financially but personality wise, we didn’t mesh because he was too much of a control freak.
Very insightful stuff here. It’s true water seeks its own level; your partner’s flaws often go hand in hand with your own, as Melda so eloquently states in her comment on soul mates. As an aside, you can change every pronoun on this blog from “he” to “she” and it all makes the same perfect, convoluted sense. Speaking as a 56-year-old dyke, the pain is just as real and the issues just as valid. Age and orientation are meaningless at times like this. I just want to get thru five seconds of my life without thinking about her. I have some hard truisms to face about myself and about her, and all your words are helping. <3
Agreed @selkie and @ethelreda that that is what married men do (bring their wives to work events). It’s just that he doesn’t know I’m not going (probably assumes I am) and it is all so fresh. Like he’s rubbing it in my face since I broke things off with him this last time and shot him down when he kept wanting to make out. I think he’s trying to repair things with her (which is good) but why rub my face in it and try to prove to the whole office and world what a great husband he is? What a dick! Do it in private and give me some time to heal!
But clearly my feelings are not (and never have been) a priority to him. On a good note, I took another day off today (have done this a lot lately!) and did tons of journalling and cbt exercises.. And i feel SO much better! For the first time in weeks I haven’t felt crappy at night. I just suddenly dont really care. I’ve spent so long the last little while wishing there was some way we could be together, trying to figure out what he meant when he said xyz, and basically feeling like every bad thing that happened is my fault. But I tonight I feel finally like I just don’t care!
I don’t wish him ill. But I don’t want him in my life and really don’t care what happens to him. She can have him. He’s an idiot and I was weak and stupid about the whole thing. But I am not anymore. For anyone who is looking to break out of a connection and strong feelings/regret, etc, I highly, highly recommend cbt!! There are many therapists out there who practice it but also online places where you can download exercise sheets.
Anyways, hoping I can maintain this strong frame of mind when back in the office tomorrow. Thanks guys for your words! And sorry I haven’t really been much of a headspace to post for others yet.
Leanne he really isn’t worth it, let him have his messy marriage, parade wifey in front of all , (poor woman btw), and get on with you life…
They stick with the women, who allow them to stay as they are, who don’t require any fundamental change in them, females who always turn a blind eye and feel full on crumbs. Partners who put them first, and deny their own needs and development.
Thank god and cheers Br, that you decided not to be one of those poor souls …
These married players have no concept of what equality is
Miss Leanne,
Let me start with this: We have ALL been where you are. Many of us still are. We all know (I know I do) that left feeling high and dry, ‘rode hard and put away wet’ feeling. With that being said, This woman’s husband do sent owe you anything. You are looking for him to validate something in/about you that you (we as women) need to be validating for yourself. This man made vows before God to his wife, not you. So if there is anyone that he ‘owes’ its her. He don’t owe you to not bring his own wife to his work place to ‘let you heal’. You chose to fool around with a co-worker, at work, who is married. I can see if he said he was leaving his wife, left her to come live with you, then changed his mind, but none of that was the case. Has he ever asked to see you outside of work hours in public? Has he even brought you a cup of coffee? What do you want from this man? Its clear you are still pining for him. You have mentally, emotionally/ and physically hooked your wagon onto him, but he has hitched has wagon onto his wife. We have all been with men who were simply not with us. I know I have. What he did was pretty crappy. It wasn’t right at all. He is responsible for his choices. But at the end of the day, he has a mate. What I am saying here is get out of victim-ish, ‘he did this’, ‘he said that’ mode. For one you are not a victim but a co-conspirator in our own unhappiness in this one (I have been a many of times). Secondly, the power comes in owning your stuff. All of it. What is going on that has lead you to providing front door make out services to some woman’s husband in his office? I know that is not what you have always dreamed of in terms of meeting the guy of your dreams. I know that is no where near what your heart truly desires? What is going on with you (he is just a symptom) that has made you settle so?
Here is a good BR read for you
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/why-affairs-are-like-being-double-crossed-in-a-heist/
Congratulations on the CBT; that is great news, and yes, it really does work!
Agreed @selkie and @ethelreda that that is what married men do (bring their wives to work events). It’s just that he doesn’t know I’m not going (probably assumes I am) and it is all so fresh. Like he’s rubbing it in my face since I broke things off with him this last time and shot him down when he kept wanting to make out.
Hmmm. I think you need to step back, stop with the Jedi Mind Reading, and start realising that it isn’t actually about you any more.
I think he’s trying to repair things with her (which is good) but why rub my face in it
See above, eg. It’s Not About You Any More. You just think it is. But hopefully with CBT you will get past this.
and try to prove to the whole office and world what a great husband he is?
He is trying to rebuild his real relationship with his real wife. He needs to do this. You need to respect this.
You chose to fool around with a married guy, and this is what happens afterwards. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. I know you say you don’t want him any more, but you did at one time, and this cannot be undone now.
The thing for you right now is to be LEARNING from this pain, and learning never, ever to get involved with a married guy again, and especially not a married guy in your workplace.
What a dick! Do it in private and give me some time to heal!
This sounds a bit control-freaky.
Be very, very honest with yourself. This is not going to run along your schedule, because there are three people involved in this situation, and you can’t just demand that they do things the way you want them to.
Step back. In every sense. You need to get yourself OUT of this marriage in your own head, not just in your daily life. It’s NONE of your business any more.
Again, is there a reason why you haven’t told the boss? The boss could actually cut you some slack here, couldn’t they, and help you have less contact with him?
Leanne, no, no, dont tell the boss. In fact, if I was in your place and someone mentioned or asked me, I would lie my face off. As long as there is no proof, and even if there is, lie lie lie. Nobody needs to know this, least of all at work.
The conditions under which you can tell the boss are if after 2-3 months have passed, and by then your role in this episode is irrelevant and THEN this fellow starts hitting on you again, harassing you, etc. THEN you can do something. Right now, he’s backed off, you’ve backed off, nothing to see here.
And I agree with those that are saying this is not about you. He doesnt owe you ‘space’ to heal. I totally understand where you are coming from, your feelings are totally valid. Just dont act on them, the world doesnt owe you anything. You’re in your rights to be mad that he’s bringing his wife because it will hurt your feelings — but he has every right to do whatever he wants. He doesnt owe you anything.
Here are some general truths which actually work;
-You can control your reactions, not as much your feelings – so good ahead and feel as bad, mad, sad as you want just dont act on it [also you can’t do this forever, eventually you have to move on]
-You can only control your own actions, no on else’s
-The world doesnt owe you anything
-Take responsibility – this is the hardest thing. You are still a bit mad at what happened, like the universe played you a bad card. The truth is you played you a bad card. If its still too hard to own up to that, and I totally understand, its a real pain to realize you messed up your own life, then at least learn your lesson going forward. No married men, at all, ever ever ever. Its not worth it. If you dont accept at least that bit of responsibility you might be tempted to go after another MM in order to feel like the first one wasn’t such a mistake.
My recommendation – write down the arc of your affair with him, and your role as the affair partner. Think of all the steps along the way that you could have done it differently but you didn’t. That will help, because it will show you how you can do it differently the next time an MM seems attractive. And it will help you see what happened in a specific way about specific things you did.
The conditions under which you can tell the boss are if after 2-3 months have passed, and by then your role in this episode is irrelevant and THEN this fellow starts hitting on you again, harassing you, etc. THEN you can do something. Right now, he’s backed off, you’ve backed off, nothing to see here.
Yes. Excellent advice. Save it for when you really need it, just in case. The boss can and should then help you to get some space, if you need it.
My recommendation – write down the arc of your affair with him, and your role as the affair partner. Think of all the steps along the way that you could have done it differently but you didn’t. That will help, because it will show you how you can do it differently the next time an MM seems attractive. And it will help you see what happened in a specific way about specific things you did.
Yes. Also excellent advice. It’s like playing ‘Where’s Wally/Waldo?’ with your own personal history – where was I, when all this was happening?
There’s a great crowd of events and individuals and feelings and memories in your head, and you have to go in there and look for where YOU were, and what YOU were doing in that scene.
This is good and practical advice on something that we do all the time Nat. In psych this is called the similarity heuristic. Essentially a cognitive/mental shortcut. I know I would rely on these ‘leaps’ to connect dots that flat out didn’t exist when trying my damnest to hold on to/justify/make excuses for ‘relationships’ that only existed in my head. I was sub Saharan desert thirsty for a ‘relationship’. While there is nothing wrong with wanting romantic love, I was looking for myself in others, not just guys. There was no particular experience that brought me to this great site. However an autopsy of particular thinking/emotional/behavioral patterns and experiences was muuuch needed! I don’t have any current ‘situations’ (thank goodness) but I know in this new year I can/will be ‘tested’ at any moment so I visit Nat’s articles to help ‘reprogram’ myself in this particular area. I see the ‘shift’ in ‘my story’ and the internal tapes more and more every day. For this I am thankful. With that being said, I now see dating, not as a wife audition, but rather as “Do I want to see him again?” Literally…. Do I want to see him again. Heck, do I even want to finish this conversation with him or cut it short? lol.
Another thing that caused me to make these leaps is me feeling like I was ‘running behind schedule’ in terms of getting married. As an adult woman, I figure I could take the ‘accelerated’ course in a sense. I figure at the late 20’s 30’s, and 40’s we should have enough of an idea of who we are and what we want as adults…..NOT. THE. CASE. Not like I assumed anyways. So this article is re-affirmation that if I ‘take short cuts, I WILL get cut short’! I have to manage the fact that, as a single women past my 20’s, I very much feel like I have been relegated to mandatory unwanted ‘over-time’ so to speak in terms of dating. As an adult woman who feels she is whole and ‘made’ (even though I am always growing) If I happen to meet a guy organically, cool, but its just something that I don’t feel like seeking at this point.
lsrjmissy,
” I now see dating, not as a wife audition, but rather as “Do I want to see him again?” Literally…. Do I want to see him again. Heck, do I even want to finish this conversation with him or cut it short? ” Ha ha. This is great. I’m so with you. It’s made such a difference in my approach to dating. It’s still early days for my new foray into this but my new BR programing just might be solid enough this time. Not taking others issues as my own personal problem is key for me. If a guy is an ass, then he’s an ass, black and white. No more analyzing the crap out of it.
@ Selkie
“Not taking others issues as my own personal problem is key for me. If a guy is an ass, then he’s an ass, black and white. No more analyzing the crap out of it.”
Twinsies lol. For the past week or so I have been saying to myself that ‘I am done holding other peoples bags’. What is helping me with that is knowing that I am a witty, very energetic, engaging, humorous, understanding, kind, empathic, try to keep it positive type woman. At the grocery store, at home, at school, where ever. That is how I engage everybody. And my being this way has ZERO to do with others, this is just who I am and what I choose and keep choosing. So why do I clearly understand this about my and my behavior but not others and their behavior? I now give myself credit for these things and I see them as resources. With them being resources, I no longer choose to waste them on ill behaved, literal temper tantrum throwing adult problem children. Male or female. When people show us who THEY ARE, we need to believe them the FIRST TIME!
Missy,
great post! I really like the way you spell it out.
Sounds like you are well on your way…
Unfolding,
Thanks, I certainly hope so. As I said in a previous post, I know I will be tested as this is what life does.
missy. You are in the BR club. I say that because you’re doing something most of us do. You say you don’t have any current “situations” (that lead would you to BR. This not at all unique or unusual. Currently, the issues that brought me here are resolved. But, we’re human, not perfect and never will be. We do the work, make changes in our lives so that we can be present, wary, and seeing the REAL picture, thereby protecting ourselves from unnecessary pain. But we don’t completely change who we are. There’s always going to be residual crap and we’ll still slip on a banana peel at times. That’s why you’ll read stories of painful mistakes, i.e, going back on NC, as well as stories of contentment, victory over the AC, Narcicist, lustful Married Man, etc. etc., we’re all in different stages of, if you will, recovery. It’s good that you’re here which signifies to me that you already know what I’m saying. I’m doing okay right now, too, but I see myself here indefinitely because I still have slip ups which I’m now aware of when before I was not. I have my own little slogan – ” staying focused and fortified.” Nothing wrong with that. Best wishes and stay strong.
@ Tinkerbell
Preface: The following is not meant to be in an argumentative tone, but a simple response to your post tone.
“You are in the BR club. I say that because you’re doing something most of us do. You say you don’t have any current “situations” (that lead would you to BR. This not at all unique or unusual.”
You are putting your words in my cyber mouth.
“. I know I would rely on these ‘leaps’ to connect dots that flat out didn’t exist when trying my damnest to hold on to/justify/make excuses for ‘relationships’ that only existed in my head. I was sub Saharan desert thirsty for a ‘relationship’. While there is nothing wrong with wanting romantic love, I was looking for myself in others, not just guys. There was no particular experience that brought me to this great site. However an autopsy of particular thinking/emotional/behavioral patterns and experiences was muuuch needed! I don’t have any current ‘situations’ (thank goodness) but I know in this new year I can/will be ‘tested’ at any moment so I visit Nat’s articles to help ‘reprogram’ myself in this particular area. I see the ‘shift’ in ‘my story’ and the internal tapes more and more every day. For this I am thankful.”
Now what about the above spells or even hints to me thinking I am not in the BR club (I would not be posting on BR if I was not a part of BR nation) or that I believe my situation was all that ‘unique or unusual’?
I’m not getting your point to me. Did you read all of my post.
Missy. I’ve understood what you’ve said. Perhaps my word choice was not the best but the intention was to be encouraging, supportive and share a sisterly BR camaraderie. I have no reason to come on here to “chop” anyone or sound condescending(?). This internet communication is not like talking to the person. Like emailing, misinterpretations can easily occur. Perhaps, you do not need encouragement or support because you are well on your way to increased emotional stability and contentment. Anyway, I regret my part in upsetting you especially when, imo, there was no cause for it. I did end my post wishing you the best as I would to anyone else on BR.
Thanks @ethelreda, God I love this site! It’s such a wake up call. You guys really know your stuff, I love it.
Yes, no more MM. And you’re right, how and when they want to heal their relationship is up to them. It’s sad for me, and I wish I didn’t have to see it or hear it or think about it anymore, but of course this is how these things end. Effing painful! I didn’t really want to break up their marriage, I just wasn’t thinking about all that at the beginning. Feet not grounded in reality, clearly.
I haven’t told my boss because she is really almost like my peer and I would be embarrassed to tell her. I don’t have to deal with MM too much at work, so it shouldn’t be too hard to navigate staying away from him (unlike poor @colly). I will just press on NC unless it becomes a problem.
But I think, despite my anger at MM and some of his ridiculous selfishness and stupidity, he is actually a pretty good guy and isn’t going to try to do things to hurt me. I think I blew the work event out of proportion in hindsight (he can probably see that I’m not going). I don’t know.
Im going to keep working on getting out of this headspace and healing and moving on (aka. Truly forgetting about this idiot and his chapter in my life). Thanks for your words!
Hi Nat, could you please delete my last post.. sorry! I’ll really try to stop doing this! Just very anxious and regretting the things I say. Going for help with it. Thanks, Leanne
Hey Leanne, what on earth did you post that you felt needed deleting. No judgement here, it’s a place to express that is safe. You don’t need to worry about pleasing us, be you and express it.
What a week I’ve had. I tried to post a couple of days ago but it never appeared. My “common interest” aka work has had me in daily contact with ex MOM, every day the boundaries getting pushed a little further away from bare minimum professional.
I was doing so well with NC before, I think I’ve experienced what Nat calls “Bait and Switch”.
Had a work call last night and he starts IMing me about something that happened at work that I hadn’t told him about and he couldn’t believe I hadn’t shared it with him – he didnt to know it, it was about a colleague of his – so why would I right? Anyway little IM session ended with him writing “I can’t give you what WE want”. Like classic EU statement with the weird addition of we instead of you. I let it go, but couldn’t help wondering how he could possibly know what WE wanted. I also thought it might be a clever twist on the classic statement twisted so I somehow felt sorry for him because he actually wants ME but can’t carry it through and how he must be tortured by that. Who knows?
So glad now it’s the weekend and I get a break. I have nine more weeks of working directly with him. It’s going to be very tough. I feel weakened and my heart aches, I’m distracted in my life, yet I know he’s not for me.
Yuk, shoot me someone.
Meant to say, for the first time
I’ve recognised in me the sense of
entitlement I’ve felt at the deal not coming off.
It’s not great but I think this is progress in itself,
I am becoming more aware of my feelings.
@ Colly
“I can’t give you what WE want”. Please don’t fall for it. That is a forked tongue statement. Its pure mind effery. Please stay the course Ms. Colly.
Yeah, he’s good at mind effery, see below
Leanne why would you regret your last post or any post here? Thats what this is good for, BR is, for being able to express that anxiety here and having a response from people that understand that only too well. So much better that you are here, and we are all responding rather than you being by yourself or turning to MM for validation. You have come so far, even the fact that you are posting even though no one here pulls their punches shows that you are more ready to hear this and take responsibility than you think.
Anyway, I hope you feel better soon. Its a hard experience and you’ll second guess yourself a lot through it [its good to know that because what you are going through is natural]. I thought your last post had a lot of insights to offer, and perhaps also you feeling sad that you had let yourself down. Dont be too hard on the Leanne of the past – just trust that the future Leanne is going to be able to handle things going forward.
Please know we have all made similar or messier mistakes, and it messes up your mind. So whatever you are feeling is not because you’re bad or he’s bad or whatever – its because that situation is guaranteed to create huge mental anguish. It sets you back in your path, so avoiding him and being on BR and giving yourself the space to grieve and move on is what is needed now. Give yourself time, a few months at least, to fully process and you will emerge a stronger and more self aware person. You already have.
“I can’t give you what WE want” – oh if I have not heard this from my own exEUM before and heard other women mention their EUMs using this (or a variation of) phrase. Classy, just plain classy bs.
Colly, what does he mean by this? ABSOLUTELY ZERO. He is being reactive and selfish. There is no double meaning behind his words. Hell, there’s probably not even ANY meaning behind his words.
Please don’t try this but I can tell you that after 1 year+ I am still getting cards and sometimes messages from EUM saying how he “hopes” or “wants” “to make it better between us” or how he “sees there’s a better future”. Or how he “knows that he can give me what I want and what we both want”. Now that only seems like a total opposite of what your man wrote. But it’s an illusion. It’s all TALK. Does he ever DO ANYTHING apart from writing this? NO. Not before, not ever. At the beginning I listened to his “explanations” why nothing was changing or progressing or why even his own words were contradicting him. They were not explanations, they were excuses. He might tell you his wife is a bitch and he’s so stressed out at work or he might tell you he was drafted by a secret service. All of this is equally bullsh*t. He types whatever feels right in the moment. Then this moment passes. As girls say in this thread – this has nothing to do with you, this is who he is, this is the choice he keeps making every day (even if it is a choice of not making any choices), it is his character that reflects his values. Your responsibility is to yourself, to step away. Stop analyzing his shallow statements.
Colly, Hi, the “we” is classic forced teaming. Predators use this to get people thinking they are on the same team and therefore close. There’s a great book, that I believe is essential for every woman to read, it’s called “The Gift of Fear.”
“Forced teaming: An effective way to establish premature trust because a “we’re in the same boat” attitude is hard to rebuff without feeling rude. [Forced teaming] is not about coincidence; it is intentional and directed, and it is one of the most sophisticated manipulations.
The detectable signal of forced teaming is the projection of a shared purpose or experience where none exists: “Both of us”; “We’re some team”; “How are we going to handle this?”; “Now we’ve done it,” etc…”
http://www.safeplaceolympia.org/survival-signals/
Why and Veracity,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this. He has a history of words and actions not matching so I never thought his WE statement was anything of REAL significance. But Veracity, “forced teaming”, wow he does this to me ALL THE TIME. Any slight opportunity we have to work together is always a WE, and how WE’RE in this together. I don’t know if its control, his way of trying to feel a bit less of a b*st*rd, of some weird need to keep a foot in the door.
I’m feeling much better today though, after lying awake for sometime last night I managed to focus on all the sh1t things he was and had done and I’ve woken up feeling renewed with my need for NC. Yay!
Veracity,
Thanks for sharing this link. As one who used to ignore or rationalize my own intuition, this is a great reminder to listen to it.
You’re welcome, Selkie, I’m glad you found it helpful.
What is CBT?
Cognitive behavioral therapy
Cognitive Behavioural Therapy. I tried it 15 years ago for anxiety (caused by an obsession I had with an EUM). When I did it it involved writing down what you were thinking (usually negative self talk) and then writing underneath what was more likely to be the real situation. If practiced it does work to turn around the negative self talk, however in my case I have wondered whether I got so good at it I used the technique to help me quell my alarm bells about dangerous situations.
I’m a pro at rationalising and minimising!
CBT= Cognitive Behavioral Therapy
Thanks @colly , I think just being at work, dealing with MM, and everything that’s happened has made me so anxious that I am losing my marbles. I feel like everything I say sounds wrong. I am working on it and going to therapy (might get on an anti-anxiety for a short time).
Sorry you have to keep dealing with your OM at work. That would be so so horrible. Why do you think you still have feelings for him and keep thinking through what he said and what it meant? Do you still feel very strongly for him and/or wish that you’ll be together? It’s such a tough process of letting go! I think I missed the beginning of your story, but did he ever say he was going to leave and be with you? He seems a bit messed up to be honest.
I oscillate daily between what I want and what I wish I had said/done/not said/not done. I don’t know why. It is so, so over and though I know he cared for me on some level, it really doesn’t matter. He is having a baby with his wife. It is so insanely hard to let go. But the longer NC the better.
Glad you are getting some reprieve this weekend. Good luck with continued NC (to the extent you can).
Hi Leanne,
I know what you mean about not trusting yourself with anything you say or think. I understand completely.
Be careful of anxiety meds, I’ve been down that road before. They worked brilliantly in that they got me to feeling really good (people complained I seemed too happy!), but they don’t deal with the underlying issue, and when you’re feeling good it’s easy to neglect working on yourself too. I’d say treat them as a last resort, try fresh air, exercise and making yourself do something new for you each week as a first stop.
MOM never said he would leave, he always said the usual crap that they say. He wishes he could be with me, he wished he’d met me before her. In the end it came down to him saying he was terrified of leaving because his family would resent him and his wife would make sure he never saw his kids again, and also that he was scared to leave them with her alone because she is abusive towards him and didn’t want them growing up with only her influence. I don’t know, I’ll never know the truth, and to be honest I think he was just another one trying to have his cake and eat it. Right now he’s trying to get me on reduced terms, be able to hang out with me through work (with the Atlantic Ocean between us).
There are so many reasons why I don’t want him, he’s not to be trusted at all, but we connect well, we’re at ease when we’re talking, and I’m so starved that the crumbs he throws me are golden loaves. He is messing with my head too, at least once a week telling me he’ll always love me, replying to emails with “Always” which is the short form. Just awful.
So I wouldn’t even offend the term NC by saying I am it right now, I want to get back there because it felt better than this half world of broken dreams. I’ve worked a 60 hour week with jet lag and have a cold, so hoping once my physical condition picks up a bit I’ll be able to get my mental resolve back.
Need help
Anyone got any good tips for books on codependency or therapies that work? No CODA groups where I live.
Colly,
What are you trying to distract yourself from in your personal life? This MOM is just a symptom/distraction.
ljsrmissy, my moments of clarity with this are really only just starting to come. I’ve done a lot of digging into my past and I can see how events have led me to having an all pervasive fear of abandonment. This has manifested in my life in many many ways, trouble with intimacy and its knock on effects with forming meaningful friendships and relationships, addictions, compulsions, obsessions, a bit of stalking at one time, taking rejection REALLY HARD, and this latest thing of infidelity. I have spent my whole life waiting on the sidelines for someone to pick me.
I think its obvious that this affair is me trying to right the wrongs of the past, getting someone to pick me against the odds. What I am grappling with is what go me to this personal low, how did I get so far away from my values. Infidelity is not me, in fact I would even describe myself as fiercely loyal. I know this might seem quite unbelievable to people since I am a cheater, but when I fall for someone or something I fall hard and I am all consumed – a bit issue in itself because I myself am lost in it.
So how did I get to crossing that line and end up having an affair? I guess fear of abandonment again – I daren’t broach any dissatisfaction in my marriage in case I am abandoned as a result. So I disconnect myself and go and have an affair to try and be picked so I can run away. I know now even if I ‘won’ and got the man it wouldn’t address the underlying problem. At some stage the gloss would wear off and I’d end up feeling empty and lost again.
Leanne, be patient, and don’t try to run before you can walk! You are doing FINE – you are going through all the normal stages of denial, anger, breaking NC, hate-love-hate,’we can be friends’, and all the other wild rollercoaster of emotions you experience when you’ve been burned/hurt.
We go into these compromising, ambivalent, ‘passionate’ situations so easily – and then we expect to walk away from them just as easily. Only then we find that it wasn’t a harmless bit of fun, or a game. It had real and serious consequences for us personally.
You are in the right place. This isn’t Oprah; no one affirms poor and destructive life choices here! (I have watched Oprah, and sometimes I’ve wanted to take her guests and shake them like rats, and tell the audience ‘STOP affirming her in her mistakes! Help her to get OUT of this situation!’)
Here is the place you can actually make real changes to your life. Part of that is finding forgiveness – not from us (hey, we’re just electrons!), but from yourself. You also learn to forgive other people for their poor choices, and then you can really move on.
So just ride each day out as it comes. And take one day at a time! It really does take time to get over things like this. It would have been much worse if you’d had sex; be grateful for that, at least. Most of us have been here, and we know what we’re talking about!
…and of course he’s messed up, it comes as a given if you’ve got yourself involved in an affair. It’s quite a complex mess really, sometimes he seems narcissistic, he has very poor self esteem, sometimes seems to have me on a pedestal, and sometimes makes me feel like something he’s stepped in. It’s hard to find a part of either of our lives which is healthy to be honest. And wow that makes me feel defeated. Yes, I feel defeated right now.
Colly, I wanted to say, and you’ve probably thought about it, that CBT might really help you. It works really well for specific problems – like your anxiety with having to face the guy at work. I think many CBT people would think even 2-3 sessions enough to deal with such a targeted problem.
Providing you the mindfulness and other techniques and just humoring you a bit into changing your mindset. A really good advisor or mentor or relative could also do this for you – but nothing beats a good CBT person. When you say you feel defeated, perhaps a jolt of input of a different way of thinking about your problems might provide you the energy you need to get through this period (you’re already moving on, its just that you have to do it around him; and same for Leanne I guess).
Suki, funny you should say that, I did download a book yesterday with CBT exercises for low self esteem. I’m on Nat’s Self Esteem course right now so am struggling to fit everything in with working and being a mom to a two year old too, but I think having a go at the CBT is worth a shot. Frankly, anything is worth a shot right now.
‘The less you need someone’s approval, the more you are able to love them’. I am reading ‘feel the fear and do it anyway’ and this line seemed really interesting for a lot of BR comments about how unhealthy relationships hook us more than healthy ones. I wonder if it should also say ‘love yourself’ – because when you stop craving validation from the outside is when you are sure of your own values.
Its easier to walk away from an overall healthy relationship because you think its not going anywhere or some other reason but an unhealthy relationship pushes your buttons and keeps you hooked. Interesting to think that needing approval, validation etc., especially from someone that will not give it (the passive aggressive to your passive or aggressive), means you love them less, and are able to get away less easily. This explains why those relationships are such mental pain.
And makes me wonder – how do we recognize when a particular person is hooking that need for approval in an unhealthy way, and how do we unhook?
Suki- I can really relate to what you said about not craving outside approval when we are sure of our own values. Tonight I found out what a “friend” really thinks of me. She was quite verbally abusive. She spoke as if she were a mind reader but what she said about what I think and how I feel is proof that she’s not a mind reader.
The thing is, I’ve become self-aware enough to know my strengths & weaknesses & to really like myself. I have a couple areas I’m working on, but, for most part, I’ve got my own back. Thus, her raging tirade frightened me but my self-confidence remains because I know she’s wrong about me. I was just standing there smiling as she was being abusive, which infuriated her but my smiling wasn’t for her. I was smiling because I knew she was dead wrong in what she was saying & I didn’t self-doubt. It’s really, really true: We stop craving outside approval when we are sure of our own values. I’ll also add that outside disapproval has little effect when we’ve got our own backs.
I like me! 🙂
Suki- You write so much practical wisdom and ask good questions that it’s difficult to know how to reply that’s anywhere near to being as articulate as your replies. Anyway, I’m learning to recognize that when I start fantasizing about a non – existent relationship, it’s a sign That I’m under stress and it’s time to practice self-care. The better I get at taking good care of myself, the lesser the “cravings” for that certain man’s attention. Also, staying in reality & not trying to mind read helps keep me sane. For example, as much as I want that certain man to be in relationship with me, what I want & what he’s giving are two different things. Instead of trying to mind read his reasons, I accept the reality for what it is and I’m ok. I’m sad, disappointed & lonely but I’m grounded.
Sometimes, when I feel really stuck about all these issues, I think and ask myself, “Does it really matter? These men, their feelings or no feelings for us?”
We never know when our last day comes. Don’t mean to sound heavy here, but the reality is, embrace everything you have today and right now. You. Your family and friends. Children if you have any. Your pets, your hobbies, whatever it is you love about You and Your life. It is so fleeting. I remind myself (should strive to always be aware) when I get lost again and again “why it didn’t work out, I miss him, I miss something I don’t have.” Going the 1 year breakup anniversary and feeling some strange pangs of pain. Which should be joy instead. I am sure I will be clear soon.
Appreciating what you have at the moment is a learned skill I think. Just a thought. We can keep on learning. Happy and free feeling loving your live disregarding what whoever thinks of you, misses (doesn’t at all) you, ( has never loved you) loves you. It is Your life to live.
Suki, I am reading the same book and have been talking to both my therapist and my friend about the same topic last night!
It’d be nice to read NML put this topic into her no bs perspective too. I am not 100% certain but in my case I realized that instinctually or, rather, subconsciously, I associated love (not “in love) with ambiguity. It is irrelevant that with my adult brain I thought I knew that love is stability, continuity, effort etc. It was intellectual and rational. But because back when my affair with EUM started (over 3 years ago) I did not even start addressing my anxiety in general and did not go into my family relationships, I was in denial what I truly experienced and believed to be love. Ambiguity. My first experience with love was, like for most of us, in a form of parental love. As a child you cannot but yearn for that love. It’s instinctive and a much much deeper need than love of an EUM (though it is extremely tied to it). My biological father was an alcoholic. I never knew when he’s gonna show up or if he’s gonna be cheerful or verbally abusive. This was one of the first lessons – tolerate ambiguity if you want to get what your nature needs, tolerate ambiguity and uncertainty if you want to get love (and you can’t really NOT want love when you are a child, you NEED it. it is not a choice). Then both my father and my mother could disappear for unknown reasons. My mom could just take off with her new bf and as I saw her get ready for a date I learnt that I am not a priority. And that is my default belief. Now, it is sane to think you’re not a priority for other people but you HAVE to be a priority for your parents. That’s how you learn to make yourself a priority. How to work with it now? I don’t know this for sure. But these are a couple of insights I had in my therapy sessions and they ring so true as to why I stayed for so long with a EUM, why I abandoned my boundaries, why ambiguity triggered extreme anxiety in me and why this in turn is so addictive to me.
Sorry for such a long answer, Suki. Your post touched upon something I’ve been thinking a lot lately.
I so agree with all you ladies, Rosie, and Why; its really important to identify that stress and practice self-care (that observing self – if we could even accurately identify our emotions and others actions for what they are we would be so far ahead of the game). Sometimes you need to step back just for your peace of mind, and for no other reason. If you’re not doing well, or that person is triggering all this anxiety then you should just disengage for a while, for yourself. That is something we should be taught as children, especially as girls since we are usually taught to be polite, friendly, to engage even if we dont want to (hey! how about a smile!).
And I think that says something too – that any amount of attention seems so important to us that letting go of something that even makes us miserable is hard. In fact, the more miserable it makes us, the harder. Which means that it triggers our desire for approval, and perhaps as Why is saying triggers our feelings of anxiety from not being consistently loved as children. Such a cliche but there it is.
I think I was much loved; but I was also very inconsistently loved, a lot of berating, chaos and unpredictability in home life, undercurrents of tension, shaming, and worst of all I think a strong message repeated all the time that my feelings were wrong. That I am feeling in a wrong way, not loving enough, not positive enough, not having any of my feelings validated, etc. And although i was loved, cared for, I was also told I was loved but it was a form of manipulation – that is, there was a lot of ‘no you can’t criticize me, i’m a great parent, you’re the bad daughter, my way of showing love is better than yours etc’. So I also got this message that when people say they love you there is a degree of manipulation to it, and that i can’t trust my own responses.
And this is where we trip up with anxiety too (sorry for rambling post!). If you can’t validate yourself, you turn to others. They have their own anxieties or are tactless or manipulative and the odds are slim that they can fully validate you. Then you feel worse. So yes, being able to trust your own judgment is critical and I’ve said this before – EUMs undermine your judgment and trust in yourself (who are you going to believe? me or your own eyes?) and being with one will require you to later work on building yourself back up to what you were, to healthier beliefs. Save yourself the work, and dont go there.
‘The less you need someone’s approval, the more you are able to love them.’ So true, Suki. I used to (thinking positively here 😉 put people on pedestals and they knew it. They were good and I was less-than (bad). Then I’d work my butt off to win their approval. I’d sabatoge myself and my relationships in that way repeatedly. The more you care about what another person thinks about you, the more power they have (you gave it them) to manipulate/control you. Then you end up respecting/loving each other less. It becomes a power and control battle.
“And makes me wonder – how do we recognize when a particular person is hooking that need for approval in an unhealthy way, and how do we unhook?” I wonder if the first step is recognizing our particular “gaps” or triggers. For example…angry people…if when someone gets angry with me, I get anxious and can’t sit with the anxiety (I’m overwhelmed by it and my fear They will _____) so, I want them to not be angry as soon as possible. So I jump through whatever hoops I think is necessary to “make them” not be angry with me, not _______. They recognize this early on and add it to their “bag of tricks.”
So I wonder if the way to unhook is to recognize the pattern and your (my) part in it. In the example my part would be to recognize I have work to do on anger…feeling it, expressing it, and getting comfortable with others’ healthy anger. And when I’m around someone who is angry with me and feel triggered, remind myself that they are angry and anger is just another emotion. I don’t have to DO anything. It’s their feeling, not mine to manage or soothe or whatever.
If the person is using something – your fear of anger, etc.. to control/manipulate you into winning their approval, this usually becomes obvious because they use it more frequently. Then perhaps the awareness of this pattern is enough that when it happens you can say to yourself, oh, she’s trying to getting me to do X,Y or Z (manipulate/control me) by using her anger (to intimidate me, make me afraid). I’ve found that “it” tends to lose its power when you’re aware of it. It takes time and practice, but it eventully becomes a habit to think “why are they trying to get me to feel ___?”
Just like not caring what they think, being aware of your personal “weak spots” tends to make the hooks less powerful. Because they are only effective if you bite…just let the hook float by.
Hope this makes sense!
Ladies, I need help with a capital H and I hope this isn’t too off topic and doesn’t get past moderation. Some of you might remember that awhile ago I met a very nice guy who is overweight. I really wasn’t attracted to him physically but he’s so nice, intelligent, funny, etc. that I kept seeing him, plus he is putting no pressure on me. We met about 2 months ago and since then he has shown himself to be a truly caring person who has a lot of integrity. Also, it’s just very easy to communicate with him. If I felt with my ex-EUM that I was constantly pulling teeth, with this guy it’s more like I’m cutting soft butter. If I bring up anything, anything at all, he basically says no problem and does it. (Like I very gently brought up that he was wearing flannel shirts on all of our dates, which was a little disappointing, why not dress up a bit?) and he instantly did it, no defensiveness, nothing. He also def is the type who would help me if I needed it — I mean, I could see him taking care of me if I were sick, that kind of thing. That kind of stuff starts to become a bit of a priority the older you get. There’s no angst with him either, he blows steady, consistent (but not overwhelming) interest, not hot and cold.
I have been out here dating for 3 years and believe me when I say a guy like this is one in five billion.
You can probably see where all of this is leading. I am not attracted to him. It’s very strange though, ordinarily when I’m not attracted to a man he steadily becomes so repulsive to me that by date 2 or 3 I can’t have him near me. It’s not like that with this guy. I like being around him, I just don’t want to sleep with him … and I don’t know if that is going to change. I pray it does and I don’t even pray.
I don’t know what to do because last night, in some kind of an effort to ramp things up just a tad, I told him I didn’t get any “sexual heat” off of him, so he instantly went into “sexual heat” mode and became more touchy-feely and began kissing me, etc. The kissing is fine, his technique is passable, but it did not spark anything within me.
I am SO worried that I’m not attracted because he’s a nice guy! You have to understand. I have never been like this. I was with a guy for 10 years before I met the EUM who was the nicest guy in the world. I was also very attracted to him. Even the EUM, who is very soft-spoken and polite and well-dressed and groomed etc, I had no idea he wasn’t “nice” until I’d been dating him for awhile and realized he’s a total manwhore. But I didn’t know that when I first fell for him.
I know I DO like nice guys. I also know that while the weight thing isn’t appealing to me, he is losing weight (20 pounds since we met) and while his fat is still somewhat fat, he is starting to look better — he’s very tall and can carry off a lot of weight. Other than that, he’s 10 years younger than me, has a full head of hair, straight white teeth, and nice blue eyes, a goodlooking man if not a model. So I SHOULD be attracted.
I feel I have been RUINED and maybe not am only attracted to ambiguous types? Maybe I am reading too much into it and you’re either attracted or you’re not?
I have two friends who got involved with guys they weren’t attracted to but who were “nice” and both ended disastrously — in fact, both women ended up having affairs with guys they WERE attracted to. I know I can’t go my whole life feeling “meh” about my partner, and I’ve NEVER slept with a man I didn’t totally have the hots for. I don’t even know how women can sleep with old rich men just because they’re rich or whatever. My body doesn’t work that way.
I just don’t know what to do. It took me SO long to meet someone I liked and I can’t work up one spark for him. I’m in my mid-40s, it’s not like I can just dump this one back and easily find another. Not in this town, trust me! Guys my age are looking for women ten years younger so they can have children. The older guys I’m just not attracted to either.
I did meet a guy last week I was super attracted to, but I am already getting an anxious vibe with him. I am going out w him one more time and then will see …
I just don’t know what to do about OW (overweight) guy. He wrote me this wonderful email last night apologizing for not showing more attraction to me and vowing to do that. And also saying how I am too good to be true, etc. I know he’s not love-bombing, because he’s been slow, steady, and consistent.
Thoughts??? I don’t want to hurt this man either and worry that by cont to see him and being so unsure that is exactly what I will end up doing. On the other, I am shuddering at starting the process of trying to find someone again, because it has been so demoralizing and hopeless.
Diane, I think you would not have a final answer until you really tried to have sex. Any kind of sex. Are you into anything peculiar, something he can learn or maybe shares any of your kinks? Would that make you feel aroused?
I find that in sex, just like in relationships overall, communication is a MUST. I am not saying you need to tell him he is fat and thus you cannot get your lady parts excited about him (unless he asks maybe?). But find out more about who he is sexually.
I was going through older posts and comments here and unfortunately I don’t remember who said it but the point was that we set ourselves for failure and create a mind picture of scarcity by saying: I am too old, I am too young, I am too fat, too curvy, too flat chested, too skinny, I have kids, I am a widow, I never had kids blah blah blah. You are at a stage with this guy when you’ll inevitable gonna try being sexual with each other. Let him show initiative. Give him feedback. And if it does not work – then you did everything you could. Just give him your best, give this your best chance. And it’s OKAY if it does not work. A relationship requires TWO people. You cannot will someone into being a ferocious lover (though he might surprise you!) or a thinner man or whatever just because right now you need or are ready for a relationship. Treat both him and yourself as human beings: irregularly shaped, with fears and glorious bits and good hearts. It is not the end of the world if it does not work out.
Diane,
I say be honest and don’t let the fear of the “last chance saloon’ stop you from being honest. Its not fair to you or him. He is going to be able to tell that you are not sexually attracted to him and that could be devastating. I don’t think its an being attracted to the wrong kind of guy issue. Looks and character dong have to be mutually exclusive. Nothing wrong with wanting to be attracted to your mate. I have been where you are. I found that if I am not truly interested, then I wont treat them quite right so I chose to let them go instead of trying to hold on to what I know I don’t want for whatever the reason. Why not keep him as a platonic friend? You shouldn’t still be ‘struggling’ or trying to force it after two months and a guarantee you that as a man, he don’t want to be in a situation with a woman where she feels that she has to force it.
Diane, your post brought up a memory of an old boyfriend who I didn’t think was at all attractive when I first met him but then after I got to know him well, suddenly one day I was looking at him and WOW, his kindness, his fine mind, his confidence, his humor, his personality… all that made his funny face and stocky body just beautiful to me. I guess what I’m saying is that attraction is not primarily a physical thing, and that if it’s there, it will likely come out if you interact long enough with a great person no matter what they look like. In your case, you’ve been with this guy long enough to know that IT just isn’t there. You’ve tried and you’ve waited and IT isn’t there. That’s not a crime or a failing on your part. Being attracted to your mate is essential and wanting to kiss them and hold them and with them physically is one of the great joys of loving someone. I can’t imagine a relationship without that aspect. And at the same time sometimes you can be with someone who is drop-dead gorgeous but there can be that nagging feeling that IT just ain’t happening on your end. If IT’s not there, no use in flogging that dead horse.
What would be a failing on your part is to keep stringing this decent guy along because you don’t want to be alone and don’t think anyone else is out there. Even worse would be to have sex with him to figure out your feelings. These are the kinds of painful, even devastating things men do to women all the time, evidenced by thousands of posts on this site by bewildered women who can’t figure out why the guy they are crazy about isn’t really into them, doesn’t really “feel” it, is lackluster about the relationship, keeps “trying” to have authentic loving intimacy but can’t – but won’t let them go either. Or the men dump them soon after having sex because sex is merely a dating technique they use to figure out their feelings. It’s an awful thing to do to someone.
This guy deserves a woman who is crazy about him – just as you deserve someone who is crazy about you. Be honest and let him go with kindness and respect.
Diane: a very long time ago, I tried to force myself to be attracted to a very nice but overweight guy. The real litmus test was trying anything physical; couldn’t do it. It sounds like you’re really trying to change who he is; size, manner of dress, manner of behavior. If someone isn’t OK as is, you don’t belong with them. Dating someone you really do not want because the last guy was an ass, time is running out, your town has a limited selection, is a form of rebounding. Attraction has to be there or it’s a no go.
I meant “face” is still fat, not fat is fat 😉
Diane,
Seems like you are still operating on values that have not worked for you. And this guy seems like a people pleaser (the one where sparks are not flying from your end) type.
Diane, I have seen weight be a way to avoid intimacy – firstly it turns a lot of people off, secondly, you can blame it and loathe yourself for it (i dont get girls because i am overweight).
However, at the same time, a lot of people dont care about their partner’s weight, a lot of people are overweight themselves and are attracted to others who are etc. So is this guy also picking you because you’re out of his league, and vice versa? — so that you both know that nothing will really happen and can ‘safely’ date because there is no possibility of intimacy?
Similarly it strikes me a bit off that you’ve been already trying to control him with his clothing and with talk about his weight (if i remember correctly from a past post). I have had overweight friends tell me that thats a no-go topic for them – they know they are overweight, if someone tells them their feelings are hurt. I think if you dont like something so basic about someone, you should leave them be.
I have learnt over time that its best not to bring up clothing etc., especially in someone you’re dating, whats the point? If its a deal breaker, then break the deal. If it isn’t, then just wait till you are in a real relationship but most preferable is to just live with it. You can say something roundabout but really why be manipulative?
Losing weight is one of the hardest things people attempt, they fail all the time, they backslide; sometimes they lose it and are different people afterward. Are you going to sit around making pointed weighted glances at whats on his dinner plate till that happens? My suggestion; cut him loose, and dont go back if you meet a skinny version of him in 6 months. Theres a dear polly about that scenario and it is messy.
In my option two months isn’t enough time to figure out if someone is slow and consistent, and ‘too good to be true’ is a red flag.
You cannot ‘vow’ to show attraction; you feel it, preferably mutually, in an obvious way. If you are writing emails about this, then you’re already saying theres not much there but you will work at feeling attraction? the most basic thing in a relationship?
I think this indicates some avoidance on both your parts. If I were you, I would enjoy this as a friendship, and make it clear thats what you want. But you’ll find it hard to tell him its because of his weight, and when you do, you’ll just be confirming what he thinks about himself. Sorry if that sounds no-win, I think the win-win outcome is to cut this off before it drives you bonkers; or learn to see him as a real person that you accept just as he is. Or accept yourself as you are – a person not really attracted to this guy.
Oh one more thing – I’m reading ‘feel the fear and do it anyway’. And no that doesnt mean date this guy… but she has an example of how we over think things.
Well, if i date this guy, but then like what if, and then theres this other thing, and there was that one guy last week who, and then sometimes I have this funny feeling about, and then well once that happens, and what if I then find, but he might be the only, and its been long enough, and its not like i, and its not like he, but its almost as if, but when I think that, however the last time that was, oh wow things are complicated, I can’t make a decision, let me keep going out with him, but then if, what if, and then he, so I said, perhaps I shouldn’t have…
Yeah, thats thinking no-win from that book’s perspective. You need to think win-win! Your post is a description of total anxiety over a decision. I think given all our BR previous posts, its time to take a step back, into self-care.
You will not magic him into a skinny minny and you will not magic yourself into attraction (and it appears that you’re so good for him that he has to vow to feel attraction – eye roll at all this drama). My friend, this is a fantasy relationship. The overweight just adds a little further spice of ambiguity – wow, if he was skinny, we could be jim and pam, now if only he also wore those different shirts, and if …
He’s thinking, if only I could feel something, anything. Its a good thing she’s too good for me, like all the other women I’ve vowed I would soon be attracted to. [I think vow to be attracted is another version of ‘you’re not pretty enough’. And remember being overweight doesnt make him incapable of playing head games, being EU, thinking he’s way better than you, wanting to control you, manage down your expectations etc].
Sorry Dianne, but you really do seem to have a thing about his weight, I mean you even refer to him as “overweight guy” poor bugger, you may not mean to hurt him but can you just imagine how he would feel if he read what you have written and come on just because he flannel shirts doesn’t make him a bad person. All I see is you trying to change an apparently nice man into someone that you feel you would be more attracted to. Give him a break and just tell him things aren’t working for you, let him find someone who will accept his weight and his flannel shirts!
@Sandy, well, yeah, Sandy, I keep myself in very condition and have never dated someone overweight and he likes ME because I’m in good shape (and has said so repeatedly) so yes I have the right to not be attracted to someone who is overweight. And I never said anything to him about his damn flannel shirts, I’m regretting I mentioned that. A lot of judgment on here today. He’s not married, doesn’t have a pregnant wife, and somehow I’m being judged harsher for not being sure I’m attracted to a man who is overweight and not my type, than those having affairs?
Diane, he does not have to be “the one”. I would be offended if someone I dated started pointing out the ways I could “change’ in order to possibly make myself more sexually appealing. Why not just cultivate platonic friendship – those are worthwhile too, you know. Leave romance and sex out of the equation. Be his friend, tell him you want only platonic friendship, and let him find a woman who appreciates him as he is.
OMG, I never pointed out anything about him that had to change! I never mentioned his weight, and the only thing I said about his shirts was he asked me if I liked tattoos and I said, “Do you wear the long flannel shirts to cover them?” I don’t know where you all are getting the idea that I’m diligently trying to change the guy, but I’m not. I don’t have time for that. I’m a very busy person and the last thing I need is a man-project. I was just expressing my feelings about a lack of attraction, which may or may not have anything to do with his weight, I don’t even know. I just know there is no sexual attraction. Odd how everyone assumes I’m trying to change him.
Diane,
Okay. I understand your frustration. But……try to flip the perspective on this. First, of course we all have things we are attracted to physically whether it be a muscle man, tall, short, not hairy, skinny, stocky, big feet, etc., not a thing wrong with that, and as you mentioned, he is attracted to you and your fit body. If you are not attracted to him for whatever reason, so be it. That’s okay! Now…the ‘but’ part….you may not be saying anything to him about his weight or his clothes but you are wondering in your own mind if it IS his weight that may be the problem. That is okay too. You have wondered if you might be more attracted if he lost weight, so in some way, it IS an issue for you. So, maybe some of the comments here are coming from a place of nudging you to examine what you are really feeling and not letting your own judgment of yourself get in the way for feeling the way you do. Maybe you aren’t trying to change this man but you are wondering if he WAS different you might be more attracted to him. It’s not changing him but maybe wishing he was different. Examine that. Sometimes after meeting so many toads we meet a great man who isn’t quite what we are attracted to, but the desire to (finally) have a man who treats us good can get in the way of being honest to what we really feel. I don’t judge you for pondering things with this fella, but quite the opposite. You art letting things unfold and giving things a chance. That’s good. That’s smart. But you have to stay honest with yourself and know when to get further involved or when to let go. Trust yourself. Only you can decide that. Read the comments here and if you feel judged by some of them, take what you need from it or let it go. The beauty of BR is that you get many honest viewpoints. It can in some ways open things in you you hadn’t considered or it can cement what you already knew about yourself or a situation but needed a nudge or kick in the pants to see. The journey has lots of forks in the road….and there are no guarantees but being true to yourself is a great place to start. Sometimes it just takes a little digging to find. Hope what I say makes a little sense. I’m not great at expressing the things I mean to say, but the jist is supportive, not judgmental.
@ Suki,
This is interesting. Personally, some really big things have recently (within the year and a half) started ‘sinking in’ Things my mother would say to me growing up. Things I would read in Nat’s articles. I would read it, get it on a surface level, but it didn’t sink in until recently. A paradigm shift as it relates to worth and value at an essential, foundation, primary and core level for me. Having to go in and work on changing the internal tapes. I say all of this to say that forming ‘relationships’ is tougher and messier than need be because we are trying to make the other person responsible or stuff that has nothing to do with them (unless they are like our parents or siblings or something). I am talking in terms of romance.
I will speak for me. ‘The less you need someone’s approval, the more you are able to love them’. For me,that means, I wont have the capacity to truly love this man like he may deserve, to have, to give, and to share in a healthy love experience, if I am trying to get him to give, create, or validate some shit in me that don’t have nothing to do with him. I take it to mean that while I think its important to affirm and re-affirm that I am the apple of his eye (love languages) and I do the same for him, it is not his job to tell me whether or not I am ‘worthy’ or ‘of value’ as a human in general and as a woman specifically. That’s some ‘homework’ I should have done beforehand. I think that is a huge issue amongst many women. Between how we are socialized, raised, what religion tells us about gender, media propaganda and our own personal issues, enough of us are empty vessels waiting for a man to fill us up. Enough of us feel that we are nothing, not worthwhile without a man. That particular belief about myself was nothing short and shy of ASKING FOR IT! I personally am in the throes of changing that message. Its not an easy task when we live in a society who in large part has a vested interest in women continuing to feel like we are never enough. Wanting to share love…good. Feeling we are nobody without a man telling us so…BAD.
I think the unhealthy relationships hook us more than the healthy ones because the unhealthy ones resonate with our unhealthy inner selves. Water seeking its own level. Say what we want about these AC’s and EU’s, something about the way we were being treated and spoken to by these guys must of FELT. LIKE. HOME. Something about them ‘agreed’ with something about us. Those AC’s spoke in a language we understood. For me,nobody told me to get with the guys I got with or stick around the ones I chose to stick around.
Another thing I want to add is that enough of us as women are drama queens and just down right malcontent/miserable. Its like we NEED something to complain about with our gal pals. If there is no back and forth, push and pull, screaming, yelling coming, going, cursing, some type of Lifetime Channel style drama, we say ‘there is no spark’ lol. And we will proceed to either leave the guy of machinate some drama. Overall I think unhealthy resonates with unhealthy on some level while healthy turns around a goes the other way. For me, being whole and ‘made’ (work in progress), I understand the love (romantic) is about giving, helping, and sharing out of abundance or over flow. Not trying to get this man to give me stuff that I should be giving to myself. That’s not his problem. I could go on and on with this one!
@ljrmissy, I hear you, and understand completely though am earlier on in my journey than you. I have all these same thoughts but as yet have not been able to step into action.
Colly and ijrmissy; I agree with you about the unhealthy matches with unhealthy. The thing is that I feel myself much healthier than before; the relationship with the last EUM — it took me a while to figure out what was going on, but I never did any crazy girl things, like I would have earlier. I perhaps did too much cool girl, but really I wasn’t thinking of him when I did those, but of myself and that I wanted less drama in my life. I totally met a drama goose. So this is the bit I need to work on; putting myself more out there because EUM was a set back and I am less ready than I was. In the sense that it tired me out, made me jaded 🙁 ANd I was already the queen of jaded.
I had thought once that there are different types of EU; even if I’m EU in some ways, its more that I dont access my emotions, its not that I can’t do commitment, or that I am crappy to others. BUt theres other EUs, that are EU-ACs, or just much more self absorbed immature passive aggressive or just plain selfish people for whom even a dating scenario cannot be carried out without disrespect for others. I am still attracting those it appears; maybe he was the last one, I hadn’t dated for a while, so it was interesting to rethink my boundaries about things and where I stand now. And he did help with that.
I think also if you stay on in that situation, then definitely unhealthy is meeting unhealthy. I have learnt finally not to stay on; I’m not sure you can avoid that initial attraction though, you can’t prevent that first contact and that first hurt. E.g. this guy was so nice to me when we first met, so much attraction, so much attention (not love bombing, but attention bombing for sure). BUT he also sort of hit on someone else that night, then back to hitting on me, AND did that again and again later on. When he first hit on me, I thought he was interested, and he was. But he’s also an opportunist, and since then I’ve realized that he craves validation and cannot stop himself with turning on the charm in situations where it can be misconstrued. I couldn’t have known that when we first met, I take some things on face value; think really that what he did was problematic to me from the start but it took a while for me to really trust my judgment and not be confused by my own liking, his pursuit, and our ability to get along. That takes time. [I guess I’m trying to convince myself that unhealthy isn’t going to hook me forever!! I have come so far and still fell for his really negative and drama producing actions].
Suki,
I think that is something that we have to watch when we say we ‘attract’ certain people. I don’t think that is true as we make it out to be. People are who they are before we meet them. Take a celebrity for example. A woman who is a pop star. She is going to attract all kinds of men. Do who and how these men are have ANYTHING to do with her? No. I am just coming out of that thinking. To think that men who are 30, 40, 50+ just happen to start being an AC/EU right after they met us is no realistic. Whatever they say or do, they BEEN saying/doing it. I tell myself, people are going to be who THEY are, not who I am! I certainly think my habit of owning mine and theirs had kept me with people who lack self accountability. As one dating expert put it “women dont attract the wrong men, women ACCEPT the wrong men”. And it is that “Accepting” (the sticking around after he has shown us he is a douche-de-jour, after he has displayed deal breakers, or that our goals/values clearly dong align), not the “Attracting” as if you are an attractive woman, you are going to ‘attract’ a lot of men. I also was connecting dots that didnt exist. If a man did jerky, disrespectful things, I attributed it to that primary childhood wound. I said ‘see more confirmation that I am not worthy/good enough”. In reality his behavior had nothing to do with this? He behaved like an ass because drumroll……he is an ass. People’s words and ways are telling of them like mine are telling of me more than anything else. I am working everyday to make that separation. Like Nat says, people unfold, and dating is a discovery phase. This is so true. If I meet a man and things are fine the first couple of months, but he cheats or punches a hole in the wall in the third month, then well, I have discovered and he has shown himself to cheat and have anger issues. It don’t mean I did a single thing wrong the first few months or that I ignored the signs. Different situations bring out different things in different people. If you squeeze something whats inside comes out. I think that’s why dating being a discovery phase is so true and important. It is not that we ‘ignored the signs’ all the time, its that a conflict or pressured situation has not arisen until that particular moment. For me, the mans behavior doesn’t speak to my self worth, but my sticking around his crap behavior does. In terms of you being jaded. I think its normal and natural. Being single after 30 something, 40, and 50 is like having being told by the boss that I have to work overtime when I don’t want to and everyone else (marrieds/those in ‘relationships) got to go home early. I think the jaded part is natural because while we are single men and women, we are all ADULTS. The lack of maturity and self awareness and accountability among a lot of guys is staggering. I just wonder sometimes if these guys have any personal shame. Like how do they feel being their age and still talking acting like they are in the 9th grade boys locker room. Or the guys who are power/control/ego stroke whores lol.
“women dont attract the wrong men, women ACCEPT the wrong men” – this is GOLD! Thanks fo much for sharing this quote.
Ljsrmissy,
Once again, I really like what you said. It’s direct, cutting through the BS. I agree with all of it.
Thank you ljrmissy, I completely agree. I’m so tired of the idea that somehow we’re all doing something wrong and attracting jerks — there just happen to be a lot of them out there! If we put up with their nonsense then it’s on us, but often there’s no way to know until you’ve been seeing a guy for awhile. Most of them don’t announce it right off the bat, though there are certainly some small telling clues.
Ljsrmissy, thanks for the clarity of your words. I am living your post. You stated it so plainly – how, once we begin dealing with our inner selves, we can see the confusion we’ve been living. We begin to “play the tapes” and we begin seeing some startling realities.
Elgie,
You are more than welcome. As I post here, I speak to myself as well as any other woman who can get something from my posts. It is true baggage reclaim!
I gain and regain so much from Nats reads and BR Nation.
I agree. Natalie, I wish you’d consider merchandising some “BR Goggles” – cool looking sunglasses with your BR logo. Oh, offer some with reading bifocals in those sunglasses – for the older gals like me! I wanna be able to say I am literally looking at the world through BR Goggles!
“Dear Lie” as written by Tionne Tenese Watkins and Kenneth B. Edmonds ~~TLC~~
Dear lie
You suck
You said you could fix anything
Instead I’m fucked
You made things even worse for me
If I had balls, I’d tell you get away from me
Guess I’m not smart
I let you unnerve me
I let you control me
Afraid the truth would hurt me
When it’s you that hurts me more
Get outta my mouth
Get outta my head
Get outta my mind
Stop puttin’ words in my head
Get outta my mouth
You’re nothing but trouble
Get outta my life
Get out of me
Out of me (out of me)
Out of me
Out of me lie
Lie lie lie lie
Dear lie
You’re dumb
You think you’ve got the best of me
You think you won
Misread my vulnerability
I’ve got your walls
Now get the hell away from me
I’ve learned your art
Won’t let you unnerve me
Won’t let you control me
The truth will only free me
And your lies won’t hurt no
No more
Get outta my mouth
Get outta my head
Get outta my mind
Stop puttin’ words in my head
Get outta my mouth
You’re nothing but trouble
Get outta my life
Get out of me
Out of me (out of me)
Out of me
Out of me lie
Lie lie lie lie
Lie lie
I’ve got
Your balls
Now get the hell away from me
I learned your heart
Won’t let you unnerve me
Wont’ let you control me
The truth will only free me
And your lies won’t hurt no
No more
Get outta my mouth
Get outta my head
Get outta my mind
Stop puttin’ words in my head
Get outta my mouth
You’re nothing but trouble
Get outta my life
Get out of me
Out of me (out of me)
Out of me
Out of me lie
Lie lie lie lie
Lie lie
Dear lie
Lie Lie Lie Lie
Lie Lie
Dear lie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6VRmucWWMY
Diane, could you not just tell him the truth and tell him kindly? Can you not be friends and enjoy eachother’s company and just wait and see? Could you imagine him meeting someone/getting married and still being your friend and have him in your life to help you when you need it and vice versa? Is possible that if you are always kind, honest and respectful to each other that you can have a nurturing relationship (as opposed to Relationship). It seems a good sign that you haven’t completely gone off him, as has happened previously.
Thanks, Larissa. I spoke to my therapist and I think I will try that.
Thanks guys :). Feeling a lot better today and have calmed down a lot. Still up and down about him, but no contact is working slowly here. Coupled with the thought work, seeing friends and learning a new instrument, I know I can get there!! Every time I feel like breaking contact, I’m going to do one of the things above (or post here) until this passes. Thank you guys for your words. I love this site!!
I was at the pool with my niece and nephew today and I saw a woman who looks like MM’s wife. I kept staring at her (I think I creeped her out!) and thinking about what she is like and why her not me, etc. ridiculous! I also spent a bunch of time this morning feeling embarrassed about how silly I’ve acted, but then in the afternoon, thoughts of his role here and some of the jerk things he did came into my mind. Grief working its process, slowly.. but it’s so much better than the alternative!
@colly, I really feel for you. Our situations feel so similar, but yours is what mine would be like if we had to stay in contact. I was feeling crazy with the yes/no, you’re amazing/your worthless vibe I was getting from him. I keep feeling really badly that I lost my shit at him the other week and now we really aren’t talking (I think I scared him). But the alternative (which he was trying to bring about) was a situation similar to yours where we are perpetually in touch and while he remains married, he is able to keep me hooked with crumbs until MAYBE one day he is able to leave. I really don’t think that day was ever coming, and I don’t want to live like that in the interim.
I feel sad I had to break it down (and again, embarrassed by how messy it was and how I tried to react). But The alternative is constant pain (or ups and downs like you are experiencing). I really wish you could get out of that situation! It feels like death at first, but it is worth it in the long run. I really wish that for you after the 9 weeks of your project are up.
Anyways, back in the trenches tomorrow, so best to you with this week. Ps. Do you really think his wife is abusive?? Or even unlike able? Sounds like total b.s.
Thanks everyone. Love you guys and this site!!
Me again.
I was at the pool with my niece and nephew today and I saw a woman who looks like MM’s wife. I kept staring at her (I think I creeped her out!) and thinking about what she is like and why her not me, etc. ridiculous!
No, not ridiculous. Perfectly understandable. It’s called ‘jealousy’. It’s good to face this about yourself, and start examining yourself on this. Am I a jealous person? Am I envious? Do I spend a lot of time wanting what other people have got? This kind of incident can be absolute gold for your growth in self-knowledge, even though it’s painful.
I also spent a bunch of time this morning feeling embarrassed about how silly I’ve acted,
Again, it’s normal. And again, it’s good if the embarrassment leads you somewhere – like ‘Boy, I am so NOT doing this ever again’, or ‘Gosh, I’m really sorry for what I did here, and I am NOT going to be that woman, ever again.’
but then in the afternoon, thoughts of his role here and some of the jerk things he did came into my mind.
Yes. It’s comforting. And one day, you’ll simply not think of him at all, and that will be wonderful!
Leanne,
I have wondered long and hard whether his wife is really abusive or not. It could have been a hook to keep me in with him for longer after we established we were on different paths (him not being able to leave and me wanting to). That said, some of the things he used to talk about in general conversation without even realising that what he’d said was strange has me thinking that at the least there are very extreme control issues. Knowing something of both their backgrounds I can see how there would be control issues that might well step over into abuse. I don’t know, never will.
One thing I do know is that not ‘being chosen’ over someone who is allegedly abusive has had a definite extreme effect on my already poor self esteem. I know it says more about him than me in my logical brain, but my heart and spirit feels differently.
The other thing that keeps me hooked in a bit is it being so very obvious that he’s still very unhappy with his life, that he is lonely, and that even just talking to me about work lifts him. He told me last week that since we’ve been working together again he has been happy when we’re talking, but then the time in between has been very sad for him. Seems like he has a bit of the same addiction as me. Of course I’m not the fix for him, but the ego likes to think its the fix.
Yuk, anyway, as I said to ljrmissy above, I know he is not the solution for me. I’m feeling a bit better today and more resolved to try and get back to the NC properly (as much as I can around work), and deflect the bs he sends my way.
Glad you’re getting on so well, you have come so so far in the last few weeks and should be very proud of yourself. Please keep this up and I’m sure all will be well.
Stay in touch.
Yes, I imagine that really hurts @colly. I doubt that that is the full story (that she’s abusive, so he can’t leave and would prefer to be with an abusive woman over you). There are likely so so many other complicating factors, and this story may be partly his attempt to not make you feel too bad (ie. by saying he does care about her) and also trying to keep you hooked. Even if she is controlling, there is likely way more to it, so try not to feel too bad about it (to the extent that you can). It is so so tough though! On the other end of the spectrum, my MM was saying that he still loves his wife (while oscillating between that and saying they are just friends and he hopes we can be together one day). That I feel hurts a lot too, but in a different way.
At the office today and no sign of MM. I feel really sad today that we are no longer friends and want to reach out and joke around, but I konw it’s not good for me and now will just make me look silly 🙁 So tough. Continuing to grow from this and heal with No Contact (I say this everyday, but perhaps it’s my way of trying to convince myself I will get there!)
Leanne,
Every day is like the most painful torture at the moment. The times we’re working together on something is actually nice and feels comfortable, and you could almost forget what’s happened, but the times in between are just dreadful. All the pain stays fresh and the withdrawal comes over and over – like being dumped repeatedly. All this would be easier if he was never nice to me, but he spins me all this BS about loving me and about it being painful for him now and again. Honestly I can’t wait for the nine weeks to be up.
I’ve hit a terrible low this week, and its not all bad news to be honest because I feel I’m finally starting to grieve all my losses from the past. Its awful, even the air movement hurts my skin, but I think I needed to get here to start properly healing.
I understand your sadness about missing your work friend, its tough, but yes, not good for you. You ARE getting there already, you’re doing great.
Colly, his wife isn’t abusive. If she were he wouldn’t dare fooling behind her back. Sorry, simple.
Colly. If you understand nothing else about your relationshit with this MM, please understand that he is and wlll be increasingly a very good liar. A master manipulator. It makes sense that this should be. Lieing enables him to maintain his double life with reckless abandon. It’s the fabric which is essential in order to carry out his devious designs on a woman who will believe every word that comes out of his wretched mouth. Another thing which may be extremely painful to face is that he may be having an affair with someone else other than you at the same time. Horrors, you think. Where and how could he find the time? Being an OW brought me to BR. Fortunately it was only 6 months in duration, but those were 6 of the most confused, degrading, self-loathing months of my entire life. The adulterous MM can talk circles around you having you desperately clinging to him as though he is some sort of deity. He is not. He is a devil in a very good disquise. Until you are able to extricate yourself from his strong grasp on your heart and mind you can remain in a state of deception and despair for a very long time. I’m sure you don’t want such a dismal future for yourself. But you need all the help you can get from sensitive, well-meaning individuals who have been caught up in the throws of the same situation. I hope you will come to your senses sooner rather than later. Being in an affair with another woman’s husband is a pervasively soul destroying experience for YOU. Notice I did not use the term “being in love” because it is not. It’s pure unadulterated Bullshite. Once you remove the rose colored glasses and see it in REALITY you will no longer want to touch him with a ten foot pole. You have found this blog and are already moving in the right direction. It is extremely difficult when you have to see him everyday or frequently. It means that you have to be that much more determined and unwavering but others have done it before you and you can do it, too. Believe that and own it.
I want to share the following with you all because I want to tell the truth, and I want to tell you the truth early enough to give you a context for my past and future posts. What follows isn’t my whole story, but it is a beginning. I wrote and performed the following for a woman’s story sharing event last year. The theme was “No Apologies”. It was the first time I had been honest about my life and my marriage. There is more, so much more, but this is a beginning. I feel I owe you all the truth.
****
I had my first orgasm about a year ago.
Oh yes, Darlings, fasten your seatbelts — we’re gonna go *there*.
It’s going be a little scary, but don’t worry: I’ll take very good care of you. It’ll be like that old movie, Flatliners. Or like playing the Fainting Game when you were young. (Anybody here remember the Fainting Game?)
Yes, I’m going to take you to the brink of Death by Mortification and the Event Horizon of Awkward. And then, just when you feel like your head is going to explode, it’ll all be over, I’ll restart your hearts, and you’ll be free to start drinking in excess to erase the mental image of me nude on the bathroom floor with the cat at my feet and a vibrator in my hand.
Today is a good day to die, my babies.
So. My first orgasm. One year ago. Let’s just let that sink in for a second.
How the heck does that happen?
How the heck does that happen to a married woman?
Yes. I am married.
I am married to a man that I love but do not desire. A man with whom I am not emotionally intimate, with whom I have history but not sex. A man who, among other things, has taught himself to do major plumbing, rebuild engines, and who has lovingly and painstakingly built himself a bicycle from the spokes up, but who has refused to learn how a woman’s body – my body – works.
I think the old saying that all of a marriage’s problems show up in the bedroom is true. The marriage bed is a microcosm for whatever is — or isn’t — happening in the marriage itself. In our marriage, we rarely risk honesty. And for many years my husband had the lion’s share of power. I lived with the constant fear that he would end the marriage. In fact, he threatened divorce so many times over so many insignificant things that I never dared to bring up anything that would truly rock the boat. I accepted this, but the price has been all that was lost between us, and all that could have been.
On the other hand, we have had a quiet life.
We met when I was twenty-four and the single mother of two young children. I wasn’t looking for excitement. I was looking for stability and sobriety and security. I was looking for a particular kind of life for my children. I found all of those things in my husband.
We have built a life together. We have celebrated good times, supported each other in bad times, stretched dollars, mourned the loss of parents and siblings, remodeled houses, established careers, saved money, and worked hard. And it must be said: I love him. And I believe he loves me.
Here’s something that also must be said: the physical part of our relationship has never worked.
Over the years, I have blamed myself. Well, we both blamed me. After all, I never orgasmed. And with each passing year, I felt increasingly ashamed, angry, and if I’m honest, terrified. Terrified that some unknown, irreversible physical abnormality was responsible.
So I stopped asking for anything in bed. I simply lost the courage to despair. In the end, I wasn’t brave enough.
Oh, once in awhile I’d pace and rage and question and cry, but little by little I stopped initiating sex, and little by little, so did he, until eventually, we stopped altogether. Which in a way was a relief. Sex had become synonymous with anger and sorrow and failure. Our marriage, like most marriages I think, began to operate in the face of — perhaps even survive because of — unspoken bargains: I would not press my husband to operate outside his sexual comfort zone; he would not press me to pretend I desired him.
I compensated for my physical and psychological loneliness by focusing on other things: children, family, friends, hobbies, and work. “ . . . if you are lucky and you work very hard, you learn not only to be satisfied with other things, you learn to long for them.”
Meanwhile, something unexpected began to happen. I began to get weirdly modest, and eventually downright shy, around my husband. Now, the thought of being intimate with him fills me with pain and panic. I have not been undressed in front of him for nine years. We do not discuss it.
There is no longer anything to say.
So. Sex took a powder. Told me it was going out for a pack of smokes, and never came back. Before I knew it, fifteen years had passed.
Fifteen. Years.
Then I turned fifty.
Turning fifty got my attention. Suddenly all the years of buried physical loneliness became an unbearable, urgent, keening sorrow and need. Time was rocketing. I didn’t want to die without having known nakedness, and release, and the communion of skin on skin.
So I gave my husband an ultimatum. We would go to counseling, or we would get a divorce. He reluctantly agreed to see someone, and then spent three entire counseling sessions in a power struggle with our counselor – a fight for control that surprised even me. I secretly loved the display. It was a great diversion, and would help to establish me as the long-suffering, blameless victim in our marriage.
Finally, during the fourth session, the counselor gave my husband a choice: either commit to the process or leave counseling.
The moment of truth: my husband was brought to heel.
And as soon as he started to surrender to the process, I began to panic. I knew we were going to have to start talking about all the painful parts of our marriage . . . all the ways we’d failed each other. And I knew also that we’d have to start talking about sex. And I suddenly realized I never wanted to try to have sex with him again. So when he made his first excuse about why he couldn’t make the next counseling appointment, and then made another, and another, I didn’t challenge him. I was relieved. We missed appointment after appointment. We never went back.
Six months passed. I considered simply starting an affair of some sort behind my husband’s back, as tediously cliché as that would have been. But as odd as this is going to sound, I didn’t want to betray or make a fool of him. So instead, I gave my husband the hard news that I was going to open up our marriage.
It was a horrible conversation. We both cried. I said, “I can no longer live within the confines of this lie. I love you, but I am giving up on this part of our marriage. I have no illusions about finding someone better. I have no desire to start over with someone new. But at this point, every year is a gift. And there are questions I need to answer. For me. For myself. I will understand if you decide to divorce me.”
Is having sex outside a marriage enough of a reason to end it?
Is having sex outside a marriage any more of a reason to end a marriage than the complete lack of sex within a marriage? As I told my husband, I didn’t think so. I still don’t think so. In my mind, I hadn’t changed anything between us. All I had done was give a name to something that was already going on in our marriage.
I had gotten honest and rocked the boat.
I have had sex outside my marriage. Oh, not often, and not well. My wiring renders me incapable of sex without intimacy, which creates a kind of double bind, given my situation. But sometimes simply knowing you have the freedom to do something is enough.
Meanwhile, our marriage continues much as it did before that difficult conversation. The only difference now is that I am no longer angry and agitated, and the marriage itself is more authentic. Most importantly, I have taken responsibility for my sexuality. Which, it turns out, has very little to do with having an open marriage, and everything to do with my obligation to myself as a grown woman. I don’t know if I would have realized that without finally taking some of the power in my marriage back, getting real, and asserting my right to ask the questions that only I could get answers to . . .
So. Valentine’s Day, 2013.
By chance, I had the house to myself and was casting about for something to do. I was feeling out of sorts. Cranky, you might say. You know, cranky in that way that only fifty-two years of not coming makes you.
And then I remembered the vibrator, never used, that had been languishing for two years up in my closet, hidden in an old purse behind a box of baby books. I got the stepstool.
Moments later, standing on that stool in my closet with the vibrator in my hand, the house quiet save for the pounding of my heart, I knew that I was finally ready to ask the question of whether I would ever be able to find release, and strong enough to handle the answer.
So, I took the vibrator to the bathroom, started the shower, and went to the kitchen to get a glass of wine. A big, juicy Cab. I took a swallow, and then another, considering. I liked the idea of starting my journey of sexual maturity — self-love, if you’ll pardon the expression — on Valentine’s Day. If I succeeded, I would have the perfect day each year to commemorate my first orgasm, and if I failed, I would have the perfect day to mark the beginning of my quest.
I went back to the bathroom, the cat on my heels, already feeling slightly relaxed from the wine. I locked the door, took another sip of wine, and slipped out of my clothes. I looked in the mirror at my humble, faithful body. It had already given me so much: two beautiful children, health, agility, relative strength. Would it now give me this?
I got into the shower, grateful for the warm water, taking extra care to attend to this moment with complete mindfulness – the feel of the spray on my skin, the smell the lavender- and ginger- and water lily-scented soaps and conditioners, the sight of bubbles on my feet and between my toes. Afterward, clean and moisturized, I toweled off and lay on the fluffy white rug in the middle of the floor. I turned on the vibrator. Where the wine had been sacrament . . . the shower purification . . . this act would be my prayer.
And when it was finally all over — my neighbors no doubt alarmed and the cat completely traumatized — I cried.
Far out, SJ. Far out. That was way weird, but I hope you feel better now …
And as soon as he started to surrender to the process, I began to panic. I knew we were going to have to start talking about all the painful parts of our marriage . . . all the ways we’d failed each other. And I knew also that we’d have to start talking about sex. And I suddenly realized I never wanted to try to have sex with him again. So when he made his first excuse about why he couldn’t make the next counseling appointment, and then made another, and another, I didn’t challenge him. I was relieved. We missed appointment after appointment. We never went back.
This reminded me so much of a friend of mine. She and her husband have a completely malfunctioned sex life, but every time they do counselling, he or she sabotages it. Like you, she just CAN’T face that part of their marriage. She too has decided never to have sex with him, but not with anyone else either, ever again.
Part of it too is that she can’t face herself, and admit that she is responsible for at least 50% of the unhappiness in the marriage. She still blames him for everything!
Does your husband have other women?
Ethelreda, we have a don’t ask, don’t tell policy in place, so I don’t know if he has other women. At times it seems like he does, but I’m not sure.
Spanish Jackie,
Wow, thank you so much for sharing your story. I’ll probably have to respond again later once I find the right words to respond to you.
What I will share now is that I have a virtually sexless marriage. That I don’t desire my husband much anymore and that I avoid sex as much as possible. I’ve been struggling to understand what led me to this point. We had a good sex life in the past.
I think with me it was my fear of abandonment, my need to shut down and detach, to protect myself. Sexual contact in a marriage can be and should be (I think anyway), a place of ultimate exposure and intimacy, to ‘know someone’, using the biblical term. I was afraid, I’m still afraid, people I love and I give myself to abandon me, I’m not good enough to have a close relationship like that, I’m not capable – that is the story in my head that drives my life.
Today, I want to engage with my husband and enjoy sex, but I am far far too afraid. Today sex for me in marriage causes extreme emotional pain and fear.
So there is part of my story.
Colly,
Thank you for taking my post seriously. I know there are probably people who don’t understand where I’m coming from, but I just felt obligated to tell the complete truth to everyone, since so many people were expressing support and encouragement without having the context of my whole story. I didn’t want to be guilty of doing the “drip feed” thing to people who obviously have my best interest at heart. Plus, complete honesty and the resulting personal power it provides to the receiver is something that was lacking in each of our previous relationships, and something we all wish we’d been given by our exes. No way am I going to be that kind of gutless wonder. That said, some people may no longer choose to correspond with me now that they know my story. I get it. And: That is their right. My job is to give them all the information they need to make healthy choices for themselves.
Meanwhile, I hope you’ll respond again and talk with me. It would be nice to have someone to talk to. Sex is something that was never meant for me in this life time, I guess, and I’m angry and sad about that.
And imagine–ha!–what an obvious “sitting duck” I was when my ex Mr. Big (an ironic nickname, I assure you) saw me across the room for the first time. I’m sure my loneliness, optimism and naivete was positively radiating off me.
Serves me right.
SJ,
We all have so many skeletons in the closet on here we have no more space for all the feel better shoe purchases! I felt the same a few weeks back when I confessed about my affair, I think the harshest critic we have is ourselves. You’re right that some people here will choose not to engage with you but plenty will. Most are open minded and understand we have not headed down these pathways with the intent of hurting anyone, but because of our own internal pain that we can’t yet face.
I’ve been struggling to identify what made me go outside my marriage, it is just not who I am, and I remember the feeling of standing on a cliff and then deciding the throw myself off it anyway. Desperation I guess.
I wanted to be noticed I think, and I wanted a connection that was familiar – desperate, painful and made me work very very hard to keep it. I’m also a small child who wants to be picked over someone else, hence the MM. I didn’t go outside my marriage for sex, but I have used sex in my past to try and get attention and love – it doesn’t work.
Keep talking SJ
Colly,
I ask myself some of the same questions. I honestly don’t know what the “truth” is anymore. I don’t think I ever did. There is no reality; only perception. Didn’t someone really, really smart say that once? 😉
I live in a city where my story isn’t particularly shocking. I know all kinds of people in all kinds of marriages: open, traditional, and everything in between I don’t know what to do about my marriage. My daughter wants me to divorce, but I don’t think there’s anything for me in the single world. I’d just be that much more lonely. And I don’t think very highly of men, generally.
Anyway, I’ve gone back to “self-protection” mode. I am sticking to my side of the street and minding my own business. Making the mistake of tangling with Mr. Big was a very painful lesson, but I learned a lot. He promised me all kinds of things he never intended to provide, things I never asked for. He pursued and pursued and pursued until I relented. I should have trusted my instincts. Something in me always knew he was bad news. I truly believe that people show you exactly who they are, if you pay attention. I also don’t think people can change unless they want to, and only if they are willing to do a lot of hard work. He never thought anything he was doing was wrong. I’ve learned so much about the way the world works. “I have no illusions; I lost them in my travels.”
So, yeah. I’m feeling the feels, staying quiet, and letting the field go fallow. Riding the waves of self-loathing and sadness. And trying to be grateful for the spiritual lesson in all of this.
Spanish Jackie,
Thank you for being so honest and sharing this.
Lots to ponder …would you like to really leave your husband ?
I would, but don’t for so many reasons. Not the least of which is: I don’t want to abandon him. He has no friends, is not close to anyone in his family, and is not close to our kids. He doesn’t want to be bothered with “relationships” from what I can tell. I have compensated by filling my life with a lot of love and friendship outside the marriage. I’m really good at loving people and being a great friend. I just recently tried to compensate sexually by going outside the marriage to get my needs met, but I ended up just getting hurt. I just worry that my husband would be completely alone if I left him. He’s not a bad person, just someone who will not expend any kind of emotional energy on anyone. If I left him, what would he do? At least I prevent him from being totally alone.
SJ – it is scary to move on, especially from someone who you tell yourself you are very fond of, may even love…and having humanity is good …
However, you have one life, one chance, do you stay with safety, cause there is bucket loads of safety in pain, or do you venture into the unknown…
The unknown, is initially a frightening terrain, shadows lurk in every corner, and sometimes you think you might actually die, but eventually you get stronger, and the prospect of going back, is now not an option. The darkness, your history doesn’t completely vanish, but now you are in control of it, and it is not in control of you …
Men find people
I’ve seen so many people I know cash in their chips, thinking that there’s something better out there for them, only to seem them land in a place that is worse than the one they had to begin with. Maybe living a sexless life isn’t the worst thing that can happen to a person. Like I said in my initial post, I’m not someone who wants to have sex for the sake of having sex. I’d like it to have some meaning, even if that meaning is simple, honest, and friendly-like. That would be plenty good for me. I don’t think it exists. It’s a double bind, my situation. That was one of the manipulations Mr. Big used to keep me from ending things when he was disrespectful. He’d always say things like, “Well okay. End this if you want to. But I don’t think you’re going to find what you’re looking for. I don’t think there’s another man who would sign up for this.” And he’s probably right. I guess I can’t use fear of being alone and lonely as a reason to put up with abuse.
Funny, isn’t it, how I always think of myself as being “alone” and “single”. I broke my toe last week (which, if any of you can relate, really made me feel abandoned and desperate — took me back to my childhood when I was injured or deathly ill with no help or medical attention provided — I still get weirdly freaked out and depressed whenever I get sick or injured)…anyway, I broke my toe right in front of my husband, and he never looked up from his paper. I took myself to the ER. I can’t even describe what that felt like. But yeah, I tend to think of myself as alone in this world, other than having my friends and sisters, I mean.
Well SJ, it can be a gamble, that goes wrong, if you don’t do the work on self. If one expects things to magically fall into place, without any real concrete plan.
It’s a big five year effort for me, but even two proper years on, despite the pain that surfaces ,despite the cost in therapy, the benefit to my self esteem, and the fact that I am control of me,most days -is worth shed loads . Sorry about your toe x
@SpanishJackie: I’ve lived alone for quite a few years now after my break-up and one of my main concerns is something like “What will happen to me if I break something and need to go to the ER?” Well, this story just made me realize what is worse than being alone and having to get myself to the ER — NOT being along and having to get myself to the ER!
I definitely have started to shift my thinking from, “I need to grow old with someone, someone who can take care of me!” to “Who the hell am I kidding? I’m going to take care of some guy for 20 years, he’s going to croak, and then just when I need it, I’ll have to take care of myself anyway!”
So screw it, I’ll remain alone and happy, with friends, etc. I save and invest so I can hire someone to help if I need it. And if someone great comes along, then great.
Spanish Jackie,
thanks for sharing your story! I can relate to your situation in that sense that my ex husband unfortunately turned into an asocial person and “did not care for relationships” either. It was supercold with him, also in bed.
If you are the only person your husband is close to (so was mine) it creates tremendous amount of pressure on you as it puts you on a pedestal. But he DOES this…that is HIS decision and you are enabling it.
If you would respect him as an equal in the relationship and as a grown person that makes decisions for himself which also includes the consequences of those decisions, you would understand that it is not helpful to worry about what he would do without you and base your decision what you are going to do with your life on that worry.
You need to bring the focus back to you…you are so starved and when you stay you can keep blaming him for not being fulfilled (terrible cycle).
One of the biggest regrets that people have at the end of their lives is, that they did not live a life true to themselves (there are studies out there) and that they did what was expected of them as opposed to what felt right to them.
You seem to have a lot of capacity to live and love, why don’t you trust yourself that it will show you the way (your intuition). After all you discovered yourself physically…Congratulations on this one, I mean that.
Hugs
So warmly said. I am taking this good advice for me too. Thanks Unfolding. V.
Hi, Spanish J. I just wanted to acknowledge reading your post. It was good reading.
Very real example of how life is not just Black and White. I’ve said for years that life is grey – 1000 shades of grey.
Thank you, Elgie R. (LGR?) :). Truly.
I’ve always said that Life would be much simpler (and less enjoyable) for me if it was strictly black and white. My brain refuses to cooperate: a double-edged sword.
Hope all is well with you.
SJ, I know you have thought all this and advice isn’t what you want … but… i dont get it. You’re with someone that doesnt drive you to the ER when you break your toe because you dont want him to be alone? This is – codependence? No. This is just nothingness. You have from him no company, no care, no help. Sex is the least of your problems. I hope you find your way out of this – not to another Mr. Big but to yourself. What is so bad about being single? Including for your partner. If he is so disengaged and you believe him capable of at least having a woman on the side, then let him be with someone that at least demands he show up to the extent of taking her to the ER. He’s an adult. He’ll survive. What makes you think he is so weak as to need you around?
This is not ok. Unless he’s providing financially? And you are incapable of providing for yourself?? Otherwise — I dont get it? Is your narrative of life that of a martyr?
You tried to replace him with another guy, another AC-EU just nasty piece of work. You first need to just replace with some care for yourself. How does one live with someone that won’t drive them to the hospital? How does that not undermine your sense of everything completely?? I’d drive a stranger to the hospital. So would you.
Wow Jackie, thank you for sharing your story! One of many reasons why I just ended my extremely dysfunctional marriage was because my husband and I are incompatible in many ways, including sexually. In fact, sexual satisfaction has always been such an elusive thing for me that I had pretty much given up on it completely by the time my husband and I got married, so the lack of compatibility in that area was “normal” for me. What changed the game was getting into an online affair and being tantalized by the possibility of being with a man who knows what the fk to do with a consenting adult woman, and gets it that there’s supposed to be something in it for me! I’m pushing 50 myself, and decided that I am not prepared to sit out the rest of my life being mommy of a special needs child that’s older than I am.
Sooooo…..within three weeks of sending him back to his port of origin, I had sex with an old friend. He’s a little older than me, and we have been friends for over 30 years — since I was a teenager (and yes, everyone feel free to give me some tough love and straight talk about this!), and BAM! I had my first orgasm from sex with a man! Wow! I wasn’t expecting to end up in bed with him, but have no regrets about it. We communicate regularly and I feel safe and comfortable with him and have another date for this weekend. I am just being very mindful of how I feel, and am committed to being honest and authentic in how I communicate with him and with everyone in general, including myself.
I made a specific point of drawing his attention to the fact that I was exactly three weeks out of a 17-year marriage/ relationship in order to temper expectations insofar as my readiness to commit to anything at this stage. I am still intrigued and interested in my online guy and would like to meet him someday, but my expectations are much more tempered now, so if it fizzles and turns out to be nothing but two years’ worth of hot air, no big deal! While I was terrified that I would end up really, really alone when I made the decision to divorce my husband, I have found myself surprisingly spoiled for choice!
That being the case, I feel perfectly content to give myself a lot of space and time to get to know myself post-failed-marriage and piece myself back together and get into another committed relationship when I am good and ready to, and this time do my level best to ensure that the attraction is based on mutual love and trust and care and respect instead of old triggers/ patterns/ etc.
P.S. “the cat completely traumatised”…LOL!! I have cats too, and am glad that they can’t talk!
Diane, a tricky one.
The ‘chemistry’ thing is not as important as you think, even though you think it’s super-important. What DOES matter is that you are not repelled by him – if you didn’t like his body scent, for example, just his normal smell, that would be a sign to run away, because you can’t get past a thing like that; it’s in your genes.
Arousal comes in varying shapes and sizes, and fear/anxiety is a form of arousal, and that could be why you get all hot to trot when you’re with someone who is actually bad for you in every other way. Bad idea.
Have a frank discussion about your need for time with him, reassuring him that he doesn’t lack physical attraction for you as such, but that you need time, and that both of you need to be prepared to put sex off for the time being. TAKE THE PRESSURE OFF YOURSELF. Don’t even set a date by which you ‘have’ to have had sex for things to continue with him. Work on the principle that you and he are never going to have sex, and then see how your relationship develops from there.
If you can do this, I think that you will grow more comfortable and relaxed with this man over time, and that you WILL be intimate with him, and it WILL be amazing, but in a way you’ve ever experienced before. He sounds worth waiting for.
Thanks Ethelreda, see I am getting opposing views here, and that is like a window to my mind, because I’m utterly torn. On the one hand I think, don’t keep wasting this man’s time. He is attracted to you and you’re not and the more you hang out with him the more he is going to get into you, and the more it will hurt if you call it off. (The exact opposite of EUMs, who don’t seem to care if they take up 10 years of your life!) On the other, it seems really soon to “throw away” a really good guy who could potentially be my match eventually in a sexual way too… sigh.
Diane,
I will try to be concise.
You are trying very hard to make this relationship work with the OW.
Because you have been single for 3 years and you haven’t met anyone chemistry like your ex. I understand you. I have been single for one year, but I already know I probably won’t meet anyone, so I am not even looking anymore. I guess I have to just be alone.
It seems to me that you are trying very hard to like this guy because he is so nice and being a boyfriend he is trying to be. My feeling is that even if he looses 10-50 whatever pounds… you don’t have the attraction for him still. I have a feeling, Diane, you are scared to realize that after 3 years you are still single and there is no decent guy around. And so this is a nice guy although you are not attracted to him (forget about being overweight, I don’t think that’s the issue anyway, it’s just no attraction, period. even if he slims down, think about it. it’s not just physical). so you feel it’s really time to finally be with someone, so it seems like you are trying so hard to make it work with this overweight guy.
Don’t strain yourself. Really. Relationship develops naturally. Notice how you work and try so hard already. Something is missing there.
I would say move on. What did the other guy say?
In any event the OW guy doesn’t seem right. You are working so hard to make him the right guy. It’s just not right. Let him go.
Hi,
Thanks everyone for your thoughts! Very helpful. @Suki, just to clear up, I never once mentioned his weight to him. I mention it here. Maybe he’s reading these boards. Haha. HE is the one who, before the second date, said he wants to get back into shape and that he joined a weight loss contest. But I think since in our early emails (before we even met) that he asked me what I like to do and I mentioned a lot of working out stuff (yoga, boxing, running, etc) he sort of assumed he would need to lose weight for me, but I never said this. As for the flannel shirts, I actually never asked him to dress up more. I put it that way here because what really happened would have been too complex to go into. But he mentioned he has tattoos and how did I feel about them and I said “Oh do you wear long flannel shirts to cover them?” I never said don’t wear them or even implied that, but he sort of took the hint I guess, and since then has not worn them. So, yeah, a “people pleaser.” I guess. I really DO like the people pleasing in a way, I mean, after 5 years of having an EUM who liked to do the exact opposite of anything I suggested, it’s nice to have someone who is willing to make changes here and there — but no, I am not trying to make him into a skinny version of himself. As Suki said, I’m just not sure there is any attraction there at ALL. It just does seem like so much pressure, by the 5th date, I feel like I should be making out with the guy or SOMETHING. And yet I have no desire to do this with him. We did kiss, but I still felt nothing. Unfortunately, Suki, I think you are right in that I finally met a nice guy, we have the same values (from what I can tell anyway) and wish I could feel something more. Kind of sucks.
As for the other guy, we’re supposed to go out sometime this week, but I’m just waiting to see if that actually happens and not putting much store into it. I said I would, now he has to let me know, because apparently he’s still not in the state.
I just DO wish I could feel something more. And yeah, maybe it will happen. Maybe I need to put less pressure on myself.
Hi Diane, I was reading through some old posts and found this and thought it might be of interest to you:
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/you-cant-force-a-relationship-or-attraction-with-a-nice-guy/
Cheers, V.
Thanks V!
Sorry, I meant Sofia. Too many S names! 🙂 And no way to edit posts (that I have figured out anyway)
@Diane, Ah okay, I understand. In that case, just tell him that you dont feel the chemistry but are happy to do friendly things. You’ll have to stick to that though, as in be very clear about it. I really dont think you should beat yourself up about this – okay you met a nice guy, so what? You’re not obligated to like him just because you’ve been single for x years. You are still allowed to have attractions, criteria etc.
Also important not to friend zone him or for him to get into the ‘nice guy’ whining. I would still suggest ‘feel the fear’ book – its kind of fun to think about in terms of choices and decision making and how to take win-win perspectives.
The stuff about anxiety might or might not be important – e.g. maybe you feel anxious so you aren’t able to relax enough to get better vibes (not from him, from other people; you might just not like him that way and thats fine). Dont do lukewarm! Its not worth it.
These guys are your chance to show yourself that you can deal with relationships, you can handle them, you’re a grown up and you’re strong and being single for however many years doesnt define you. It might limit your choices as theres fewer guys out there, but it need not limit what you deserve, and what you should put up with. These guys are not ‘the one’ – these guys are your chance to take better care of yourself. See the conversation with these guys as experiments; like ‘oh I wonder what happens if I say x’, ok went as expected or didn’t go as expected etc.
What a great website! I’ve been browsing the blog/replies for a few hours now and am delighted to have found this forum. SOOOO much wisdom here. I woke up in the middle of the night troubled by some backsliding I have been doing on my own sobriety regarding these issues. I googled something (what was it?) and up came this site. Halleluia! I have been working with many of these insights for years through self help and 12 step programs. To find it so well categorized with lingo etc is such a blessing. I sent a message to Mr. Sexting this AM for NC and I’ll post more about the journey soon.
It’s good to have you here, Maria. Welcome.
@colly, very sorry to hear it :(. I hope you feel better soon. I am also feeling very terrible today. Not only do I feel like i ruined something great (by saying don’t come by or text, etc. Anymore.. He wanted to be friends but I basically told him to fuck off and then retracted). I also feel really stupid for retracting. He knows I love him and I told him if he actually loves his wife then to leave me alone and now he is, but it is so, so painful!! Thanks for listening this week. I hope I can make it through with some dignity. I feel like I want to reach out and say “why? Why?” I have heard from so many people that his wife is posh and snooty (even he made references to if) but he stays. She is super rich, but I know there’s more to it than that. He said he wanted to be together later. Why didn’t I leave it at that? Why did I break it down and say stop dragging my heart around? They are having a baby, it makes sense, but I don’t I regret it regardless. But I also don’t want to be a fool. Have I come across this way? :(. Feeling so sad today. help!!
leanne – someone said to me once, when I was asking questions like you and trying to make sense out of my ex….she said ‘you are trying to make sense out of nonsense.’ Its all nonsense. These men are messed up. I focused too much on my ex and his words and actions because I didn’t want to deal with myself. So I am saying to you – you can’t make sense out of nonsense so stop trying. He’s married. End game. Doesn’t matter what his wife is like. He’s married. Doesn’t matter that she has money. He’s married. He’s a liar. He’s a cheat. He’s a coward. At some point I am sure they will crash and burn. But you need to focus on you. Not him and trying to make sense out of nonsense because it will never make sense. Trust me. These men only do things to please themselves.
Well last night was pretty monumental, and I guess today is the first day of the rest of my life.
I had a text from ex MOM saying there was something going on in his life that he felt I should know about and could he call me in the morning. I instantly knew what this was, and to cut it short said I wouldn’t talk to him about it but dragged it out of him by text that his wife is having a baby in August. I told him I wished him well but I never wanted him near me ever again, that we were completely done forever on a personal level. I then went to bed and lay awake most of the night reeling, feeling so sick and disgusted and in pain I wanted to rip my skin off, tear my brain out, anything to get him away from me. He’s known about this since early Dec, yet in that time he’s been fishing for attention with me, trying to be my best friend and telling me he loves me and is in pain from us being apart.
This morning I woke to a text saying “I love you. It tears me apart I can’t talk to you about this, whatever pain you’re in I am in that pain too.” I am having to fight down being physically sick, who is this AC, surely not someone I loved and wanted to spend my life with?
So this crosses a line for me, whatever crap I’ve done or put up with I cannot entertain a man telling me he loves me and trying to hang out with me when his wife is expecting their baby. I am so repulsed. So this is now finality, no way back for me, for is, ever.
I feel sick and devastated and almost don’t know how to function, but in a funny way it’s good its happened. This is an opportunity for me to seize NC with both hands and assert some boundaries in my life for once.
It’s going to be tough and thanks for letting me have my journey here.
P.S. I don’t feel like I wish him well right now btw, hoping his “community penis” (thanks Selkie I think for this gem) rots and falls off 🙂
Colly, as much pain as you are in, this really IS the best thing! Often it takes something like this for the scales to fall fully off the eyes. I’d probably have to go back and read all of your comments to understand your story, but was there some expectation you would be together? Or had you been under the impression that he was not with anyone, or separated from his wife or something? I know how we have our stupid expectations from these guys even when there is NO reason to except they throw us crumbs once in awhile and we build castles in the air, so no judgment if that is what was happening … Isn’t this the second OM who knocked up his wife in a few weeks on this forum? Perhaps we are sending out fertility vibes!
I remember long past I had broken with my EUM, he kept writing me constantly, every day, sometimes breaking into an “I miss you” which I would brush off. Although intellectually I knew his “I miss you”s meant nothing — after all we would have been together if anything he said meant anything concrete — I think it continued to keep an ember or two of hope burning deep, deep down. Anyway, he was acting for all the world like he wasn’t involved anywhere else. I would think, “Well, if he’s writing me this much, he must still be single.”
In the midst of all of this, my friend told me she ran into him on the street. And he was holding a girl’s hand!
It momentarily floored me, and I did a little crying, but it just confirmed for me how he has respect and boundaries for no one. I mean, I would have hated to be that girl — unaware that the man whose hand she was holding was simultaneously emailing his ex-girlfriend all of the time and telling her he missed her. I began NC in earnest after that.
Collie. I know you know this but I’m going to reinforce it. You are grateful that his true character has come to light. You wanted the man you wished he was, not the true him. You never wanted the true him. Remember that all you’ve lost is something pleasurable, you haven’t lost anything important. He is not valuable to you.
Last night I was chatting with friends about ‘the one that got away’. Funnily, we all did the leaving, driven to it by bad behaviour and writing on the wall. Admittedly, mine was a long time ago, but having met up with him again two decades later, his love life is a train wreck. He’s learned nothing and the damage this time is even greater. I felt so grateful that he drove me to leave him, that our lives hadn’t become more entangled, that there was ‘damage limitation’.
When you are down, just keep repeating ‘Lucky Escape’, ‘Lucky Escape, ‘Lucky Escape’.
He doesn’t understand leave me alone, he called me anyway because he said he felt he had the ‘right’ to explain his feelings. He told me he is unhappy about the pregnancy and its causing problems in his life, and of course of the love me stuff. More importantly he told me he’s been diagnosed as a narcissist sociopath. Verdict = FLUSH AND STAND ON THE LID SO HE CAN’T COME BACK UP!!!
Colly we are pulling for you.
‘He doesn’t understand leave me alone, he called me anyway because’…..ITS ALL ABOUT WHAT HE WANTS.
‘ he said he felt he had the ‘right’ to explain his feelings’……BECAUSE ITS ALL ABOUT WHAT HE WANTS.
Please flush. A narcissist and sociopath is right. A man who cognitively disassociate from his own actions (Having unprotected sex with his own wife in this case) and then act like he is the victim and that ‘he has the right to explain his feelings’ (like you are the one that got his own wife pregnant, not him) is dangerous. True sociopathic trait when people are able to disassociate from their own actions and speak as if somebody is doing something to them.
Wow, my God. Colly, he calls you to say “I love you and I am a narcissistic socio-path?”. He is delusional and it’s good to see you know it (of course you do, you would have to be delusional in your own way at this point not to!). Some of your posts that covered his ‘break uo’ with you did seem to portray him as one cold, manipulative bastard. A parting thought before bringing your focus back to you forever – what kind of emotional hell does his wife live in. His poor children (he has others from memory?).
Now, post parting thought – practical measures first – listen to Wiser and begin to get serious with block and delete. Please, again, take seriously getting someone else to deal with him at work. You have this project but the Atlantic is between you – good. Do you have an assistant on the project? Can that person communicate with him? Be a medium until the project ends?
Your welcome Colly.
Sorry to hear about the latest crap with this fella. Sometimes we need the BS to slap us right in the face to be able to see it straight. I hurts, but it’s really a life line being thrown out to you. Grab it Colly, and let it pull you away from this mess. The hurt is unavoidable, but ride it out. There is light at the other end of the ride as long as he isn’t on it. Believe us when we tell you that. We have been there.
Whoa! Man, thats scummy of him. Ugh. What a sad pathetic guy. You know sometimes we like a-holes and we know thats what they are and it just takes a little while to disengage and thats fine. Thats just how it is sometimes.
Its good this is the wake up call you need – ugh, at least you will never turn to him again or worry what you missed or what if yourself. You will still probably feel awful about yourself and ugh-who-am-i yourself so you need to get into some good therapy etc so you can nip that process in the bud. And move on quicker.
This is ultimately a good thing that you know this about him and unfortunately no more illusions.
No more thinking about him, why he did what he did, just focus on yourself, what made you end up here. You know I fell for the EUM last year, and I was so ready to have a fun relationship and really we fake dated for months but the actual ‘relationship’ was a stop and go thing, and I’m still exhausted from it, still reeling, not really interested in men right now and thats kind of sad. Even liking an EU-AC can exhaust you for months afterward. really falling for and engaging with one will be a real mind-effer…
Take care of yourself Colly, take a tub of ice-cream and watch some TV.
Colly,
Hopefully, this is your enough is enough moment.
There are no victims here. Both of you are married. This man is just a symptom. This is nothing short and shy of fantasy on both of your parts..mostly yours. Mental masturbation at best. How is him seeking attention from you while he knew his wife was pregnant a greater offence than him seeking attention from you as a married man all around? He BEEN crossed the line as did you. Now that whole, my wife is crazy/abusive/dont understand me crap was BS on his part. He portrayed life the poor husband who is being held captive by the crazed abusive wife. And oh poor woe is him so much so that they are celebrating a new addition to the family. Double barf.
“whatever pain you’re in I am in that pain too” Like I said, I hope this is enough for you Ms. Colly. He has a baby on the way is he is STILL BS’ING YOU. He is not an hurt and abused husband that is being held hostage by his wife. I’m sure his marriage is just fine and the are CELEBRATING a PLANNED addition to their family. You better believe that around his wife and those in his real life he is a devoted husband, family man who is thrilled about this new addition to his family. This man is not who you believe him to be. Please dont allow this man to keep writing you bad checks (in the verbal and emotional sense). All that make believe he was peddling off to you have? A check that you cant cash because he never had funds to cover it (so to speak).
I’m glad you’re repulsed and feeling sick Colly. That’s a good sign your moral compass is firmly in place. This may very well be the catalyst that gets you out of this situation permanently. To be truly NC now you have to block his texts. Block, block, BLOCK!! Give him no opportunities to write his BS to you. Every time you have any contact with him, you’re going to feel this misery. The solution is pretty simple, really. STOP BEING IN CONTACT.
I had to do the same thing with the ex, the boss at work, and it wasn’t easy. But it can be done! And it must be done.
Colly, I am sorry for what you are going through. I think it’s great you are delving into your feelings (as per your recent comments) . As that process continues I wonder if you’re going to hit a wall when it comes to truly turning the spot light from him to yourself. That time will come, if at all, surely only when you are ready for it. Perhaps you are in sight of that wall now. When you get there you could dismantle it to see what lies behind, or turn away and walk parallel, or back track, or add some more bricks of your own.
With the spot light on him, I see a plainly pathetic man.. a pathetic, weak, very self absorbed man, a man who takes and does not give, a man who is on the lookout for others to collaborate with him in his story and with his image.
Surely he seeks your sympathy and support? Why does he for one minute believe that he has a chance of getting that from you? Is that a salient question for you? Would it be right for me to imagine that such a question could open onto a painful avenue for you to travel?
He may think or believe the following of you(I write harshly, but it is not intended to make anything worse for you):
– He may believe you are so vulnerable to him that no matter how he behaves, no matter, there’s a reasonable chance that you will be game for re entering and standing there with him in his fantasy. He believes you are game for complicity. He has odds on you will come round. He believes the news of the baby could be put to use in his favour.. He bets you will come round to the baby, after all you didn’t leave before, at any time before of after his fertility treatments. After all you have a young child of your own with your husband, he thinks, and know how it is.
-He believes there is a reasonable chance – because he has sensed or sees unconsciously, based on your own past and present actions, based on your part in the dynamic – that your own confused values, your own belief that crumbs are what you deserve, your own shaky sense of who you are, your own lack of knowledge of the core beliefs that drive you, will secure your compliance and complicity in the ongoing maintenance of his ‘story’.
The story he plays to and may be arrogant enough to actually believe as something more than his own manufactured ‘truth’ goes something like this: Poor me. I am kept under lock and key by my wife, she forced me into fertility treatment, she forced me to have sex with her at the right time of the month and now she is forcing me into imminent fatherhood. Come on take pity on me. I am in my marriage prison just like you are, you understand..we are the impossible lovers. My tortured self is real, all the rest, my wife, my baby, my other children, my in laws, are not really real…If they found out I would be unfairly judged, it’s their problem I can’t be myself, that I can’t be ‘free’. I have to keep this a secret for the good of my own sensitive self.
That’s very likely enough for him, going by his actions. He uses his fantasy and story – his I am deep and meaningful, grey shaded, tortured but ‘so alive’ ( which btw, he views as meaning he is special and superior as opposed to other people who are merely living) to explain himself. One judgement he’s scared of is that of his wife – possibly a judgement coming in the form of her leaving him for good this time (I’m only guessing, but may he not have done an affair before? If not, he will surely do one again – pregnant wife, non-pregnant wife, mother of new born wife or not?).
Colly, I believe that even as you delve into your feelings, there are many ways to keep esteeming yourself in action. You’ll be fine in the long run. Support across the ether to you.
Colly,
I have to go to work right now, but I am sending you healing and protection today. Hang on, and let yourself be comforted by all the wisdom you find here. (((HUG)))
Colly. Take his wife becoming pregnant as more ammunition for you to away from him. He’s showing that he is invested in his marriage for whatever reason. The purpose of my post was to expose for you the ugliness of an affair and to reveal some of the deep hooks that may be difficult to overcome. You don’t have to be furious getting worked up in hatred and wishing him ill will. Hopefully, you can see him as an individual having no integrity and a poor excuse for a man. I understand you are a different person from me but once I got to that point there was no way I could allow him to play any role in my life at all. You’ve said you’re going back to practicing NC more effectively. He’s desperate to hold on to you to regain control. He hates to lose. Once he’s sucked you back in he’ll just go dark again. His mission will have been accomplished. Don’t allow that. Take back the power he still has over you and give it back to Colly. Get back to CBT if you have not already done so. You have the tools so use them. I can say no more. Wishing you (permanent) success.
I think that the lessons of our childhood hold true. ‘Don’t talk to strangers’ at heart is still true even in our adult years. It says not every one is nice or have our best interest as heart. The same applies in our adult years. For the purpose of BR, there are many guys who view other humans in general, women in particular, as video games that are just waiting to be played… for their entertainment and bragging rites. There are people who are looking for targets, some one they can pilfer, defraud, and use ‘for parts’. In my opinion, there are enough men who hate women, but they use the sex and attention that women give them to feed that bottomless pit called their egos. A lot of these guys are empty, soulless, empty, and unconscious vessels. Male attention whores. Not all men, but the water is shark infested so to speak. They collect female attention like someone would collect their baseball cards or dolls. They do it for THEIR PERSONAL GRATIFICATION like ‘oooh look at all these cool cards (female attention) that I got. Aren’t I cool!’ Its not about a CONNECTION or “PARTNERSHIP’ it is about their GRATIFICATION. Its to prove himself to HIMSELF or to HIS MALE PEERS. EGO. Ladies lets be aware when a guy is using us as an ‘ego dildo’ or the object that he mentally masturbates to. I see a whole lot of this going on.
Let me tell yall a lil story,
ljsrmissy yes I know these men that you speak of , that use us like drugs to make themselves feel more of a man …
But surely in time,it is about being able to spot these really quickly and simply walk away…
Someone, a wise old woman friend, tells me, that after time, they don’t even come any where near us, and we no longer see them …
That is a day, I really look forward to …
Like a ex smoker, who now doesn’t even see the ciggies on the table, because her mind and life is full of much better things, and she has transcended the need to smoke …
@Colly –
It could be worse. You could be his wife, pregnant with this man’s child.
Colly, Leanne, I just want you guys to know that I still come on here every few days and read Nat’s posts and find out if you guys and the others are doing okay ….I dont post , well basically, cos I’m queen of AC territory right now, dont ask me anything more, but I already know you guys are right. I just ….you know what I’m trying to say most times even when I cant say it.
Col, I read about the baby post ….no woman AC can equal a man AC , wow they are in a class of their own arent they ? how do they do it ? amazing, why on earth would he get his wife pregnant , wonderful timing. and Leanne’s guy did the same thing….
You guys on here are wonderful , I never feel let down by any of the posts…..so much wisdom and kindness on here.
Rags Mom,
Good to hear from you and glad to hear you’ve kept up with us. Its scary to think what self sabotage you’re up to if you don’t want to post it though!
Hugs
wait, he told you hes been diagnosed as a narcisst sociopath ?? for real, or was that you saying hes one ?
Oh man, our lives are so strange, that we couldnt even make this stuff up….. Hollywood fare pales in comparison to real life drama.
OMG, Spanish Jackie, I just read your story in one of the posts above, the one that ended with the valentine day 2013 climax …
I almost cried, …it was very moving ….I’m sorry I’m trying to find the right words and I cant …..I was a virgin when I met my husband in my early twenties, having tried so hard to follow my parents strict rules and be ‘a good girl’ , and I never let any of the young men during high school or even college years get too far since I was holding out for true love, commitment, whathaveyou.
And then the make outs with hubby and the much awaited anticipated wedding night ……***** FIZZLE**********
UNBELIVEABLY , I STAYED A VIRGIN FOR 4 MONTHS after marriage. I cant write the rest, I’d rather immerse myself in my sad present than the tragic past. I dont drink unfortunately and its too late to acquire a taste now, but God I wish I did drink.
“Diagnosed a narcissistic sociopath”?? You know what they say, when a man tells you what he is, believe him!
Thanks so much to all of you for sharing your thoughts and all your advice. I wanted to write back again last night but I felt like I’d been run over and just couldn’t get my fingers working.
So yes, tell him to leave me alone and he calls me to tell me he’s unhappy about the pregnancy and that he is a narcissistic sociopath.
The pregnancy thing – well. Like ljrmissy says above, about him dissociating himself from his involvement in this, its frightening. They were trying for a baby for 18 months and had been having fertility treatment, he was an active participant, you would have thought he might say something earlier if it wasn’t what he wanted. Of course he might just be telling me he’s not happy about it because he knows its a deal breaker for me and he thinks it might somehow keep some of my attention if I can feel sorry for him. I don’t, I feel sick. I felt sick about it all the time we were together, but was so caught up and desperate for the payback for breaching my own values in having an affair that I would push any feelings down that were negative about my involvement.
Well so many pennies have dropped about the narcissistic sociopath diagnosis. I had had thoughts before about whether he was a narcissistic, he definitely had a harem going when I met him, never seemed bothered at all about being the OM even though I was in pieces about being the Ow (I realise we are both married but I think this dynamic still applies – nobody really likes sharing I don’t think), nothing ever seemed to really upset him much, apart from anyone showing disapproval towards him in some way. He was very self serving, odd thing, but in a hotel with a buffet breakfast he would always just go and fetch himself a coffee and some juice and would never ask me if I wanted anything – to me (and maybe I’m just too subservient), I found this very rude. He could be very arrogant and would sometimes treat hotel and restaurant staff with contempt. He also talks about how he still loves everyone he has ever loved and will always love them, and that he loves everyone in the same way – like the love he feels for a lover is the same as or his mother. This seems very very strange to me, no subtly in emotions, as if actually there is no real emotion at all. I have come to conclude that he doesn’t really feel love, all he feels is pain and a need to keep control.
I have wondered hard about his wife and I really do feel for her having a baby by a narcissist that is telling her he doesn’t want it. They have two other children too and I worry about them, as a mother myself its impossible not to. How does the abusive wife piece fit? There are two conclusions to come to, one is that he is just a compulsive liar that is so deluded that his only truth is the version he has made up in his head and he doesn’t even recognise he’s lying. The other conclusion I’ve considered is that she is also a narcissist, some of the accounts of her behaviour also fit. I know as a couple with them it was all about having a better house than everyone else, in a better area, and a favourite pursuit was having big extravagant parties inviting lots of ‘inferior’ couples around to remind them how great their hosts were – and they would spend a lot of time between them criticising all their friends for not having what they had. She seemed to keep herself in the centre of a harem of other moms. Oh what a lovely picture I’m painting – NOT!
So back to me and how I feel. I have realised that I actually feel afraid of him, I’m frightened I won’t get away from him and if I try to he might do something to damage me in some way. It was clear from when I went NC on him a couple of weeks back and he came at me demanding I’m his ally and all that jazz that he can’t stand to not have my attention available to him in some way, and he needs to feel he has control. He said to me yesterday it was naive of me to say that our personal relationship was over, that we would always have a personal relationship and that we would be connected forever, and that he would love me forever. This makes me feel pretty creeped out now.
I also am finding it hard to process all this and let it properly sink in, I’m bargaining with myself, which feels like a horrific betrayal to myself – I don’t want to believe he is as horrible as he really is.
Its all very frightening, that I would get to a state that got me involved with someone like this. Those of you that have been reading my posts will know I’ve come to understand I have a fear of abandonment. Well I guess its a classic dysfunctional fit having someone with a fear of abandonment pair up with a narcissist! It tells me I HAVE to get better myself. I think really I should consider myself lucky in a way that the damage done hasn’t been worse than it could have been.
Today I’m going to really try and sort something out with the work situation, I have to get away some how. I haven’t wanted to leave my job, but I’m starting to see that there might not be another option here at the end of the day.
Thanks for all your support, please keep me straight here.
Oh my I’m connecting dots this morning. I’ve realised I have been involved with a few narcissists in the past, how frightening. My husband is definitely not a narcissist, but there have definitely been others. Trying to think now whether my mother may be a narcissist too – not sure, not as evident. Hmm, what is it that brings me back to narcissists?
Colt, very sorry to hear this :(. Wow, our stories are so similar it’s kind of eerie.
You will get through this! And you will feel better. I say this one month out from hearing the same news. It felt like a punch in the stomach. And then everyday waking up and fighting to accept the reality of the situation. So hard :(.
But you know what, you really don’t need him! I’m sure he’s got some great qualities and here’s a reason why you love him. And you are very attached (as anyone would be after an intimate relationship together where it sounds like there was a strong connection). But the insights you are having and the clarity about what he is really like are so awesome. Yes, you are hooked right now, but keep working on those thoughts. He sounds like a totally selfish and stuck up prick to be honest. I’ve met so many guys like this and yes, they’re attractive and fun to be around and when they love you it feels like you’re on the top of theworld. But it’s crack! Behind it is a weak, self centred and VERY mature person. What kind of person does his to someone? And then doesnt have the decemcy to let you go when it is clear he is hurting you. He is not worth it.
I hope you are able to carve out some time for yourself to relax and grieve and process this news. You can then move on to the task of improving your life, improving yourself, working on your marriage (or whatever you want to do) and cutting this selfish idiot out of your life. You will grow strong again. You will have a great life. Who needs this pathetic loser??
I have more to say but have to run right now. My motto this month, which may help for you to: “the best revenge is living a great life!” Cut this man out and start rebuilding a great life Colly. You deserve it! (And he doesn’t deserve you).
Sorry for the autocorrect typos.. Colt! Haha.. Damn phone!
Haven’t read much of the thread as I’m running out of spoons, but a couple of things:
I really don’t feel invalidated by someone having different interests at all, I simply want someone I can talk to about the things I love who will at least partially get why I’m so excited by them, because not having that makes me feel lonely in a relationship. As someone who is relatively happy alone and will not be having children I see no harm in admitting that I need to have a lot in common with my partner to make a relationship worthwhile.
Also, I don’t think being surprised by mistreatment by people who have a social conscience is due to having made assumptions, it’s due to an enormous number of people being hypocrites. Having a social conscience but not a personal one is inadequate and any trouble caused by that is the fault of the person whose conscience is under-developed, not the fault of the person who rightly expected more. In addition to which, caring professions, the not-for-profit sector and environmental campaigning all attract abusers who wish to give themselves the appearance of a caring person and/or who feel that good works will bring them glory and admiration.
Overall though, yes, people who are fundamentally different from ourselves sharing our interests and how we feel about that, it’s a weird thing, even with platonic, let alone romantic, relationships. The sooner we learn that some seriously unpleasant people can apparently get something out of even the most explicitly noble and condemnatory-of-abuse pursuits the better for us, I guess.
I was recently duped by the “we’re so alike” factor. He was Mr. Unavailable and like a true Fallback Girl I kept pushing. Well, my boyfriend of 4 months hasn’t contacted me or responded to my texts for a week. Thanks to the book and this website, I’ve ended the relationship (he’s not aware because he won’t talk to me) and will be moving on to a whole better me and much better relationships.
Lisa,
Fade out is what it is called (only done by self-centred cowards and non-trusted folk). I think you may have out-done the now ex by returning the fade out favour yourself. At some point he will make contact (with an array of really good and plausible excuses) so I hope you continue the fade out and NC now placed on him. An explanation is never required by people you don’t ever hold high regard for.
Consider his (fade out) action as part of the unfolding phase when dating/exclusive as this is a future pattern which no one deserves from someone(a boyfriend) who is meant to be mutually loving and respectful. If you were that easy to write off after 4 months to include no reply for a week, ex was never in the relationship to begin with.
Glad to see you became aware 4 months down the line rather than the two years it took for me to become aware. Keep reading (past and current posts) and reaching out to those who will help you be a better you.
Wow my last post sounded incredibly positive. Not feeling that way today. 5th day of NC and while I feel relieved that the anxiety about when he’ll call/text/see me is gone I can’t stop thinking about him. He told me in the beginning that if he felt me pulling away he would chase me or if I broke up with him he would cry and beg for me back (huge red flag!). So I’m wondering why isn’t that happening? I know it’s completely irrational to wish an EUM would pursue me but I can’t help to feel that way. Especially since he just disappeared without any explanation. It’s so incredibly cruel to just shut someone out. I’m busy working on myself and loving me. Hopefully that desire goes away at some point and I’ll be able to look back and laugh and say what was I thinking? I don’t need validation from him. Until then I hope someone out there can relate and give me some feedback that might help.
Lisa,
Stick to NC and put your story out in the new post (you made a link below) as BR folks will give you much needed support and provide a new take/perspective on your situation which many have unfortunately experienced themselves (myself included).
I basically gave two years on a platter to the ex etc etc etc and what happened doesn’t phase me anymore as I worked on myself, became very loving to myself and have very much recuperated thanks to therapy and a whole heap of other supports I purposely placed around me. Again make sure to retell your story in the new post to receive supportive feedback.
I celebrate with you on day 5 of NC, yay! And as mentioned in my last post ex will make contact at some point (weeks or months down the line) as early days yet since the fade out on both sides so be prepared as you may find that you are needing some sort of explanation after all. Whatever you decide to do at that given moment, continue the self love and caring ways and continue the NC even if you have to do so several times for it to become permanent. Luckily for me when I placed NC on the ex for the first time it became permanent (two years now and still going strong plus out of mind out of sight as I changed all my contact details at the very start…pure relief!) This treatment for guys/girls really knocks them back big time.
Thank you for the feedback and support Gina! You’re right, I’m lucky it didn’t drag on. I’m sorry to hear your EU person stole 2 years from you.
I read this when I was contemplating ending my last relationship — this sentence made me really really sad with its truth: “If they’re not sharing your core values, the ones that speak for your character and also the direction and depth of your life, you’re just play-acting at a relationship and effectively trying to make a pig’s ear into a silk purse.” Although we weren’t entirely playacting (some stuff was real) and we had commitment and trust, ultimately this was not enough because I did not like some of his core beliefs on life, politics and society and he didn’t have true compassion. Shared interest in funny things and TV series and the like in addition to me not consciously knowing that compassion is an important quality in a mate, masked this for a few years. Also, he did send some mixed signals, but ultimately I didn’t look hard enough to make sure he’s a compassionate person.