I recently spent an afternoon chilling out with my brother and we decided to watch some ‘trash tv’ so after a bit of Katie and Peter Stateside, we homed in on Judge Hatchett and within minutes we were in stitches laughing as a woman and her ‘witnesses’ stepped up to call a man a ‘lowdown dirty dog’. He had basically slept with each of the women, made out he was their boyfriend whilst holding down a job driving a truck long distance (read: opportunity to screw over other woman), and would rent an apartment ‘with’ the woman and then bail on the rent and the bills, clocking up a mountain of excuses and lies en route, whilst lining up the next ‘girlfriend to rent with. It wasn’t the first time he’d been taken to court and he certainly has more than a little woof in him, but something he said reminded me of why it is very dangerous to stick with assclowns and Mr Unavailable’s:
“If I was really that bad, sure they wouldn’t be with me!”
Now actually, the fact that these women were with him was actually a reflection of their poor judgement rather than a glowing character reference, but what he said reflects the thinking of many men (and women).
When I have talked about the importance of boundaries, I have emphasised that we really do teach people how to treat us and what to expect from us.
Our problem is that in dealing with our own issues, we attach all sorts of meaning to our own behaviour and to that of others, rather than actually take action, or clear the smoke and see things for what they actually are. We’re once again, too busy looking at the trees instead of seeing the wood.
This means that rather than look at a guy’s crappy behaviour and add two and two and make four and recognise that the fact that he is behaving so poorly in the relationship is indicative of his character and his inability to be present, accountable and decent for the relationship, we decide to ignore this information.
Instead, we decide that even though he is behaving poorly, the fact that he keeps coming back means that there must be something irresistible about us, that he must love us, be crazy about us, can’t live without our ‘medicine’.
We think he keeps coming back because he wants to change but just doesn’t know how. We decide he behaves like an *sshole, not because he is an *sshole, but because he’s a poor little soul that just doesn’t know how to show it but it’s trapped there somewhere within and it just needs the love of a good woman to release it.
The reality is that because so many women are willing to welcome Mr Unavailable’s and assclowns and allow them to stay even when they contribute little or nothing to the relationship and cause untold damage on their self-esteem, these men who are already distanced from the reality of themselves get a consistent message that they’re alright.
They think: Surely, if I was really that bad, I wouldn’t be able to pull women/she wouldn’t keep taking me back/I wouldn’t be able to call up X, Y, and Z and still be able to swing up in their lives after however many months and years without so much as a bye nor leave.
Many of the guys that shouldn’t even be peed on if they were on fire actually believe that they are good catches.
Why shouldn’t they? No matter how much of an assclown they are, they have women pursuing them!
Many Mr Unavailable’s and assclowns do not even recognise that there is anything remotely wrong with their behaviour.
Why would they? If they are allowed to cross boundaries and don’t feel consequences very often, how are they supposed to see this.
Some Mr Unavailable’s and assclowns do recognise that there behaviour is anything from inappropriate to poor to outrageous but they recognise that if you had more cajones about yourself that you wouldn’t be giving them the time of day, so they think that gives them a free pass to behave as they like.
And often, let’s be real, they can do what they like so their assumptions end up being believed to be correct.
Some Mr Unavailable’s and assclowns do recognise their behaviour for what it is but don’t care to change. They are up front and don’t go out of their way to disguise their actions but they find themselves with women who believe that with them, he will be different.
Why should he change? There is no impetus to because so far, he is accepted, albeit with half hearted complaints. Their attitude – you met me as you found me.
All of these guys are disconnected from the reality of their behaviour and most take the basics of human interaction, acceptance and rejection, at a basic level:
If you accept my behaviour in any, way, shape or form, then you must be OK with it, which means that I’m not a bad guy, which means you know what you’re dealing with, which means you put your hand in the fire so of course you’re going to get burnt.
In their world, people who really are that bad, don’t have women trying to keep them, chase them, and commit them to a relationship.
In their world, people who are not happy with what they’re getting from a relationship leave because when things don’t suit them, it’s exactly what they do…although many of them make sure that they leave the door open a crack should they feel like reopening it and messing around with your head whilst reaping the fringe benefits of a shag/ego stroke/shoulder to lean on or use….
They’re a bit black and white in this respect which means that all of the energy you spend trying to adapt and morph for them, or trying to get them to change, or trying to understand and accommodate them is wasted.
You want to send a real signal that someone’s behaviour is not acceptable and that they have crossed a boundary? Reject their behaviour and ensure there are consequences because there’s no point telling someone he’s a poor partner and that you’re not happy, if you not only stick around, but you let him repeat the behaviour and add in some other offences for good measure, and you’re begging him for sex and affection, telling him that you’ll always be there no matter what and who he does.
Let your actions reflect your words and if he won’t take action, you have to, otherwise he’ll believe that he’s not the problem.
Your thoughts? Have you considered how your action, or inaction may be interpreted?
Get ahead on understanding waste of space men and relationships with my ebook, Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl. Find out more and download. If you need personal advice or analysis of your relationship/situation, check out my consultation service.
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Ick – sorry about the married man rant last night – a close friend is jumping in to that situation with both feet and I’m soooo worried she’s going to come out hurt and destroyed
Sorry about the cancellation Butterfly. I dont know if the reason is valid or not but if it’s not — it’s nice he gave you a big red flag without wasting too much of your time!!
QT,
Your post is very accurate….
But, while we are in it, while we are playing the other woman who wishes he was telling the truth about divorce, and telling us the truth about loving us and only wanting us, we OW feel that our relationship is more special and different than all the ones that went before us.
It isn’t until hind sight that I could have actually read what you wrote in your 4 points and actually believed it and understood it. Took a good chunk of time to get to that point.
Maybe some women who play the OW on a regular basis learn that lesson, but they don’t care, so they try it again with someone else, but for me, once learned, I will never go there or make that mistake again. It was the most painful, and yet the most eye-opening lesson I have ever learned about myself and relationships. I hope that any other women who logs on here today or in the future can read what you wrote and start to believe it, and save themselves another year or more of trouble.
They rarely leave, and they all lie.
Lesson learned!
Hi girls,I was reading a few of NML’s posts again and thinking about my believes about love.I think I have a twisted idea about love.I mean like I said before the first years of my relationship with my ex he seemed very interested about the relationship,was sweet,romantic,caring and so on but didnt treat me well.And by then I thought that meant that he loved me but thinking better about it I wonder,love somebody and treat that person bad doesnt match right? I mean even though he acted like if “he had both feet on the relationship” the fact that he treated me bad was a sign that he realy didnt love me right? I would like to know what you all think about that.
Culturally there will be a lot of celebrating for this guy this weekend, back in his home town and with family as it’s admission to the UN and acheivement of an ambition. I’ve let this fall into “plausable” and I’m actually really please for him, plus he let me know the day before not the last minute. So, I am not going to worry about it – and as QT says, if it isn’t genuine then I found out very early so … job is a good’un!
@ Anusha – I think it’s ALL to do with our beliefs about love/men/romance… so much of it stems from ourselves and our own imaginations it becomes scary!
In this short time of being on board here, I’ve sort of tracked down many, many weird (and previously supposedly wonderful notions) of what I thought “love” was – and few of them contained anything of day-to-day practicalities!
One such realisation hit me again today: My “ideal version of male love” was, when I was a very young girl, impressed on me through the film version of “Wuthering Heights”. You know, HEATHCLIFFE and his intense devotion and declarations: he wanted Cathy to live with him, and him alone, out in the grey house and bleak moors gathering armfuls of heather… blah blah blah.
But just imagine that FOR REAL????? Just me and my man, lumping around with each other, going nowhere, seeing no one, doing nothing much with our lives???? Aaaaahhhhh. Where was my head?
Some years later, I had to read the actual novel Wuthering Heights for my exams – and it couldn’t have been more different from the film! Heathcliffe was never meant to be the epitome of “love”. On the contrary, he was meant to be a destructive force in Cathy’s life – and he was.
It was Cathy’s daughter and Heathcliffe’s nephew Hareton, who made a proper go of a relationship – with work and effort and actions and then communication.
I think, without realising it, Heathcliffe still lurks somewhere in my id and I might have been “seeking him out” to some extent in the men I’ve been ear-marking.
No more! Heathcliffe is being well and truly exorcised! I don’t want idle devotions and declarations. I want to get up and get out and get on; so, if I can find a partner who ADDS to that and whose ACTIONS show how he feels…. that’s my new version of the “ideal male love”.
When you think of it, the rubbish we’ve picked up along our ways (through films, stories, songs, etc) are really quite damaging; and certainly no basis for building a real life partnership on.
love, Leonine
@Leonine — “When you think of it, the rubbish we’ve picked up along our ways (through films, stories, songs, etc) are really quite damaging; and certainly no basis for building a real life partnership on”
Couldn’t agree more! I complain about that on my facebook all the time — I love the romantic comedy but it has surely ruined my love life! Between those and that ‘Disney princess’ crap — no wonder we have these crazy notions
I love this website – it has truly saved me from being a complete mess. Thank you to everyone who contributes their stories — it helps so much to know you are not alone.
Lol QT… those dire, dreadful Disney Princess thingies should come with the warning: “Don’t Try This At Home”.
love, Leonine
Butterfly………You really nailed it. I’m starting to exercise again but it’s tough going because I’m so apathetic. I literally have to push myself but when I get going, I feel better. I imagine apathy is a form of depression. I’m having a hard time getting back out there. My trust in men has been shaken by this whole experience.
@ leonine, Heathcliffe was my dream man too, all those brooding looks, smouldering passion, inner pain – it appealed from a very early age, I always liked George Harrison from the Beatles too, the dark, soulful one, and to this day I’ve consistently fallen for the same types.never a light hearted pale skinned man, always the darker skinned ‘deep’ ones.
I live in the southern Med now, and the AC fitted the bill perfectly, only now I realise that to be soulful you actually need a soul!
@ Butterfly, sorry your date canceled but it could be genuine and he has given warning so who knows.
I’m leaving temperatures of over 34 to go to Norway – the thermal shock and long daylight hours may help me see clearly. LOL
Oooo, sadthing – have a coldly, icily, frostily brilliant time!
love, Leonine.
@sad thing – “I always liked George Harrison from the Beatles too, the dark, soulful one, and to this day I’ve consistently fallen for the same types.never a light hearted pale skinned man, always the darker skinned ‘deep’ ones”
How crazy – same for me! Loved George. Loved James Taylor up to and including the sad and soulful heroin addiction! Never look twice at the happy blue eyed/blonde fellows — always the dark eyed, dark hair, quiet, deep, brooders who never want you to focus on anything or anyone but them. If you dare take your attention away to tend to yourself or your family, he’s immediately looking elsewhere for someone else to put all their focus on him! (And of course, without even talking to you about how he feels – you’re just supposed to somehow know).
@Leonine – “Lol QT… those dire, dreadful Disney Princess thingies should come with the warning: “Don’t Try This At Homeâ€.
Oh so true!! Imagine all the damage they’ve done to little girls all over the world. Just watch Bridezilla
And all those dreadful love songs, and love stories and RomComs. Puhlease.
@Sadthing – I always had a thing for Paul McCartney myself – love the chipper, outgoing ones! George Harrison never did it for me. Maybe we all have our particular achilles heel.
.-= PlanetJane´s last blog ..Family Picture =-.
Thanks for the coments everybody.I do think we have some twisted believes.But the funiest thing is that I used to fell much more loved when he treated me bad than later on.Not that I liked being treated bad or anything like that but more because he seemed to care about the relationship,it seemed to be important to him.But even so is strange that I can fell loved with somebody treating me bad dont you think?
Anusha – you may have already done so along the way, but would you mind giving some examples of how he treated you badly during the relationship?
It might actually be enlightening – sometimes we are being treated badly and we don’t even realize it :0
“never a light hearted pale skinned man, always the darker skinned ‘deep’ onesâ€
Ha! the clown was so pale as to be paler than ME, and was the class clown… still an asshat tho. It means nothing, they are all shapes sizes colours and smells!!!!
@sadthing have a good time out there, I haven’t been to Norway but it is said to be beautiful. If you have to think of sharing all you see (cos I do this with titface sometimes) then think this: we are looking forward to hearing from you about YOU and what YOU did and YOU felt and saw
I’m not too bummed out about the date, mainly cos I actually do think he will come good. What am I basing this on? Lack of fear.
Lack of fear.
It’s great, not being afraid.
Not like with these assholes, who made me so anxious I felt ill!
I wish I could edit! I want to share something that just happened.
Before I really starting trying to see past the last idiot being the problem I was talking to someone online, betting on potential etc. I know now I was anyway, at the time I couldn’t have admitted it. Anyway this guy sends me the occaisional mail which clearly are bait to hook up in some way and the last three times I replied were literally “I am not interested in these little hooks” to paraphrase. The last one I didn’t answer. I just turned on MSN to see if my friend is there (female) and could see she was not but this guy is.
I don’t want to talk to him but in the past I’d have thought “oh he isn’t on much” and I’d have connected visibly. I took to going invisible when still trying to get away from Narky and struggling with my addiction and haven’t changed it yet. However today I felt absolutely no compulsion to do it and just closed MSN as she clearly isn’t around.
Are you listening PJ? We owe them NOTHING unless they are giving in some way too.
Plus … I sense a change in me. I like what is happening inside me, I struggle sometimes just like we all do and I am often annoyed at how I still think about my mirage but I don’t want to compromise the good energy coming to me right now by grubbing about in the dirt of these tawdry little boy men.
@ QT too right about the brooders turning into sulkers as soon as your attention was not totally on them, and I must confess that even in the height of my ‘love’ for the AC I would sometimes think ‘ oh for god’s sake lighten up’ all that I am a victim stuff could get a bit wearing.
@ PJ – Chipper, outgong ones? didn’t know AC’s came in this variety! Or was Paul McCartney an early girlish fantasy. Who was it in the Monkees then? For me predictably it was Davy Jones.
@ Leonine and Butterfly, thanks for the holiday good wishes. My only fear (apart from the cold) is that Norway is full of fishermen for whom I have a weakness. OK they are likely to be pale and blond so not my type – but given my tendency to go for LDR’s I can see the dangers.
I really have learned to much from this site and everyone’s stories that I can’t see me repeating the same patterns ever again, once I’ve broken the addiction to the dark miserable selfish fisherman with the smoldering looks and the devastating smiles – both of which mean absolutely nothing as they are just learned behaviours guaranteed to work on women.
Thats the point, most of their behaviour is learned and not genuinely from the heart, and this is where we all go wrong, we’re interpreting it as we would our own behaviour, and it’s not like us at all, it really is an act. This I struggle with, to always be putting on some kind of act must just be exhausting, but then if there is no real person inside, then this must be normal for them. If they weren’t so sh*tty it would be sad.
Thanks to all.
“Thats the point, most of their behaviour is learned and not genuinely from the heart, and this is where we all go wrong, we’re interpreting it as we would our own behaviour, and it’s not like us at all, it really is an act. This I struggle with, to always be putting on some kind of act must just be exhausting, but then if there is no real person inside, then this must be normal for them. If they weren’t so sh*tty it would be sad.”
No they are FUNNY. If it wasn’t hurtful to people they are FUNNY. They are CLOWNS, and like clowns they are sad people who are actually creepy. Learn to laugh and avoid, but preferably without paying attention that they can see.
Funny actually. I am finding a liking for blonds with blue eyes lately …
@ sadthing – now, gurl, if you come back with another stinky fisherman of any hair-colour I won’t know what to advise…except, maybe –
up your gutting techniques;
wear black nets A LOT;
be really jokey (codding around);
and stop washing yourself!
love, Leonine
@Butterfly,
Sorry I didn’t get a chance to post on here last night. I did slip back into my usual way of hanging out with him yesterday. Hard to break old habits, I guess. In the evening (after I was done my presentation and feeling relieved and “celebratory”) I drank a little too much, told my ex some kinda mean things (e.g., asked him why someone as awesome as me (his description) should bother with him, pointed out how he always brings conversations back to talking about himself, told him I had always felt way down his priority list when we were together, etc, etc). He couldn`t even come up with positive qualities in himself, so I felt a bit better about his inability to think of positive qualities that he appreciated about me when I had asked him in the past.
Regardless of me being mean to him, he still wanted a hug in the evening, which led to a kiss, which led to some words just flowing on their own out of my mouth asking him if he wanted to join me in my room for a while (i know, i know,..). So we kissed again, and did some other things (but not “all the way”) and cuddled, and he almost stayed the night but we couldn`t sleep after an hour of trying, so I asked him if he’d like to leave`.He took me up on my “escape” offer (it was 4am, after all!!!).
So yes, I have slipped even more down that slope. He asked me what our status was now, and I told him we are still just colleagues. He was very sweet this morning, calling to make sure I woke up on time, bringing me a cup of tea, just being very attentive. I said it was going to be weird just going back to not seeing him again, and he just said “we’ll cope”. It sounded like it wasn’t going to be as difficult for him as I imagine it will be for me (similar to the one post lisa wrote about her ex), so that helped for me to go back to feeling frustrated with him.
It *was* difficult to say goodbye to him this afternoon, but I still feel somewhat numb, and I think I’m gonna be OK with not wanting to go back to how we were before we broke up. I won’t have to see him through work for another several months, so that will really help.
The only thing is, I do feel weird about going back to NC, now that we have gotten back to that kind of friendly relationship. I know a lot has been written on here about how it’s pointless to be friends with them, but I will feel rude if I just go right back to NC.
I am running on only 2 hours sleep, so will need time to process. I haven’t had chance to read all the posts on here yet – will hope to do that tomorrow.
I was weak, and didn’t stay NC, but I still have hope that I can get back on the track to healing. I’m really looking forward to my first appointment with my therapist.
I hope everyone is well, and thanks again sooo much for all support…
@Meant “The only thing is, I do feel weird about going back to NC, now that we have gotten back to that kind of friendly relationship. I know a lot has been written on here about how it’s pointless to be friends with them, but I will feel rude if I just go right back to NC. ”
Please please please read my comment and other people’s comments to PJ.
See, in the middle of it all you can’t see what has happened but he knew all this. Those “mean” things you said were truths. That made you higher in his estimation and he was even more determined to have you.
Babes, you know what I will say. You HAVE to go NC … we’ll all be here when you get home, k?
@aphrogirl and sadthing
thanks for the votes of confidence – and sorry I didn’t live up to them fully
sadthing, I know what you mean about yearning for the EUM, but feeling better when they’re not around. Seeing my ex in person for 5 days in a row was just too much for my willpower to take right now, but I am trying to be positive and be glad that at lest for the first 3 days I managed to avoid getting totally and quickly sucked back in.
I am so looking forward to the peace that his physical absence will hopefully bring!!!
@ Meant:
Ooo, Babes! I hope you recover from this encounter quickly. But (no criticism intended whatsoever) you must be more proactive in this. His staying or leaving shouldn’t be dependent on his decision; Contact or No Contact mustn’t be at his agreement or not; and your peace really has not got to be left to whether or not his is here or there.
In these several coming months in which you don’t expect to see him again (and, I think, after this encounter you perhaps should expect him to turn up somehow or other) try teaching yourself to BE IN YOUR OWN HANDS AND SAY-SO.
I honestly wish you nothing but the very best.
love, Leonine.
QT- What I mean by my ex treating me bad is that he would do things like take out his anger from his problems on me so he would get mad and avoid me for no reason,he would ignore me and walk away instead of discuss things when we fighted,he would set up to talk with me and wouldnt show up,things like that for example.
sadthing-Your relationship with your ex was a LDR? Im asking that because you comented about your tendecy to LDRs.And I remember somebody else comented here too about having a LDR but I cant remember who was anymore.
Meant… I think you did OK cause if you truly left feeling that you took a step forward then you have done a good thing. If you left truly knowing that things will now start to fade instead of intensify then you have made progress. If you truly left knowing that what you feel for him is not good love, and if you left feeling that you want to wean yourself off the false love, if you left feeling that you want out of the fantasy that what you two share is meaningful…then you have gotten somewhere.
There is no benchmark for how fast we get out of these fantasy relationships, but it important to keep making progress away from the unhealthy patterns of behavior.
And I think you did all that and I hope you will keep thinking bout not feeding the fantasy anymore, not feeding the addiction next time it comes around. Let those things starve to death, so to speak, as they should.
@ Butterfly thank you for your feedback… I don’t think I’ll have to change phone numbers since he doesn’t call… You are right I have learned my lesson and life moves along .. and I have a little bit of pride in the fact I have not contacted him a really bad habit of mine to break.. thanks again and hope all is going well with you and all thiose on the journey of changing and keeping no contact from EUMs and Assclowns ….
Meant to be happy,
You’ll figure it out. I agree with what aphrogirl girl said “There is no benchmark for how fast we get out of these relationships”
For me, I just knew that getting together with the man I thought I loved “when he could fit it in” was not enough of a relationship for me. I wanted more, and he actually said there would be more, but it didn’t happen.
From what you have said here in your posts, your man never did actually promise anything more than what he now gives to you already, and he’s sticking to that. So, at least you know what you have and what kind of guy you are dealing with.
At some point, you’ll figure out if this is what you want.
It just seems to me that if he really wanted a total relationship with you, he would put both feet into the relationship with you.
NC gets very hard when you’re stuck in traffic and can’t get decent radio reception and are in a dead zone for your cell. I was thinking today, while in the midst of a severe case of missing him, that I was being sentimental, and judging by his recent attempts to get my attention so is he. I was also thinking that we were both helpless romantics (Heathcliffe was my guy back when, too).
But that’s not it. Fitzgerald drew the following distinction between the two: “the sentimental person thinks that things will last — the romantic person has a desperate confidence that they won’t.” I suppose that makes them both naive but that’s another subject. As to being sentimental, I think it’s a gift that with varying degrees of success we carry over from being really young and innocent and good. There is a line I read this weekend, where one man thinks of another as, “unsentimental, almost incapable of affection, astute without being cunning, and vain without being proud.” Of the three the latter two apply to many. The first, however, is a loss that no one should have to experience, even though that’s how romantics are born.
I am currently in the process of self-validation as a romantic in letting myself feel hurt by circumstances I can’t help. I have reached a point, however, where I acknowledge that there will be more like this – meaning that I have already chalked it all up to experience and am now moulding my memories as fleeting happiness had. In the end, a romantic is not a fool as lore would have it, but a serial egotist who seeks out rapture, gives back while in the midst of it, but fully expects the indifference of the aftermath and claims its pain for herself – or herself — only.
There may be an ever-after for those who believe in it and I hope there is. Despite repeated hurt, many resist becoming jaded about the concept of sentimental love. It’s still out there to be had and in a curious way I’m looking forward to vicariously experiencing it through someone I care about. For me, I just want more rapture, more good script to be given to good actors, and I look forward to the mixed reviews I will give it later.
Well I thought I had reached Apathy, but it appears that I’m stuck in Bitter. Maybe it’s him or maybe it was just the DC traffic.
@aphrogirl, lisa, PJ, QT, Jupiter, aega, Butterfly, Leonine, Anusha, sadthing, etc
I just re-read some of your posts: aphrogirl said “But you are here because even though you are in the hole, you see a light up there. The solution is doable. Just start climbing out. Keep your eye on the light ahead, if you fall take a deep breath, a bit of a rest and keep climbing. It’s a long haul so stay positive. And though the hole is always dark, I promise the light does get brighter the closer you get to it.†– this is so helpful to me right now, as I am in the position of having fallen, and I am taking a deep breath and getting ready to resume the climb.
And in your story that included my situation: “And if there was a familiar comforting, distracting sexually charged EUM/ drug down the hall, I sure would be craving a fix of the thrill and comfort, and the distraction away from being alone in a strange hotel with me.†– yes. That’s just how it was!!! Are you sure you don’t know me? I was with other people until at least midnight most nights, but yes, it did feel just a little lonely being back in my room, and knowing he was so close by. I have definitely engaged in “junkie thinking†this week. Funny thing though, often I *do* like having alone time – I think it was just the “being away from home†thing that brought about that lonely feeling.
“The biggest lesson is to never let myself be drained like that again; not only is it a huge distraction but it does not do me or anyone else any good.†Well said. I am trying to stop the obsessive thoughts about him now that I am home. It’s funny, but over the course of the few days I was at the conference, I could literally feel my energy changing – from being productive, and “present†with the conference attendees and fellow organizers/presenters the first couple of days, to being distracted and diverted to being concerned about *him* over the last couple of days. It really was a drain on my emotions and thoughts and efforts to be an effective and authentic person.
@Planet Jane: “And part of me is worried I’ve opened the door for him to set up camp in my life again, and that I’ll have to expend my energy battling him off, or just maintaining adequate emotional distance from this person I can’t trust.†– I’m right there with you girl!! Thanks for sharing your story of breaking NC – we seem to be in a similar place as your thoughts of being friends with the EUM match mine pretty well!! (you too, QT).
Lisa: “You’ll be back to the exact place you were when you were desperately looking for something exactly like this site! And you’ll be hurting, and starting all over.†– strangely enough, I don’t feel like I am starting right from the beginning. But maybe that’s a false feeling, since I have seen him just this morning, so haven’t gone through the latest withdrawal stage yet. I guess time will tell…
@Jetred – I agree with your post to Butterfly: “Thank you for being a straight shooter and a fantastic support grumbling in the background as I find myself giving this slug credit for being human. He’s just a slug and doesn’t deserve to be thought of as any more than that.†I appreciate Butterfly’s take on things too
@Anusha – “he just go after you when is convenient for him. Like I said just concetrate on the actions and dont let the words fool you.†– yes, this is great advice!!!
@QT – I appreciate what you have written about being involved with MM, especially this: “You can’t keep up the pace and passion of an affair. When it wears off and real life kicks in, he’ll get restless again, and he’ll think maybe you arent the one for him after all. This will give him license to go find passion with someone new. And you will be hurt.†– I am reading this truth, and hoping it will help me to be strong about returning to NC.
My ex gave all the “too bad I didn’t find you before I committed to her†rubbish, and also told me he was surprised I was interested in him at all since I’m so “smart, attractive and physically fitâ€. Maybe I should listen to him!
@Leonine – I’m not so sure that he will “reappear†any time soon. When I went NC on him in July, he seemed to respect my wishes, and mentioned that he was trying to hold up his part of the (break-up) bargain by not contacting me over that 5 week period, as I requested. So I agree it really is all up to me – he seems to just take my lead, as far as contact is concerned anyway.
@aphrogirl (again!) – “if you left feeling that you want out of the fantasy that what you two share is meaningful…then you have gotten somewhere.†– yes, I do still want out, and don’t feel that “in love†feeling right now. It does feel more like an addiction, and I’m pleased to be able to distinguish between the two. I’m glad that even the physical aspects (which I was yearning for before) did not turn out to be as exciting as I anticipated this time around. Aphrogirl, I just love your posts – so full of insight and worded so well.
@lisa (again) – “It just seems to me that if he really wanted a total relationship with you, he would put both feet into the relationship with you.†– yes, I agree fully. When I asked him what our relationship had meant to him, he kept reassuring me that it was not all physical, but that he would want me for a life partner if he wasn’t already committed. He says he thinks of leaving his wife often, but doesn’t want to hurt her, then he turns around and says he especially doesn’t want to hurt me!! He doesn’t seem to understand how he could have hurt me in any way. I did thank him for not leading me on by lying about planning to leave his wife for me (I was thinking of your situation). He just sounds sooo sincere though, about really wanting to be with me instead of her – but obviously his actions speak volumes.
@Aega – here’s to reaching Apathy. May it come sooner rather than later for all of us here who seek it…
Sorry for the long post (which was mostly talking about myself) – I finally had some time to read and respond. I hope to return the favour and resume supporting others soon, once I’m back on track. Good night and best wishes to all.
Meant xo
Aega,
I learned to play the recorder – blockflute – after college. I keep a cheap instrument in my car, and play snippets during waits at traffic lights, train crossings, and fast food lines. I have to be careful at the bank line – one of the tellers always loses my ticket for a time if I play, the difference can be a five minute longer wait.
And I never worry about radio stations or cells. Since I play memorized songs I actually watch the lights more closely while playing that if I was bored and listening to the radio, etc.
I think the ideal romantic is an expression of conspicuous consumption, an affectation of the wealthy. Stemming from a time of arranged marriages, the consequences of a poetic yearning were about the same as a prosaic acceptance of a given match.
I think if we take charge, and evaluate a companion prospect on merits – character, aptitude, interest in a long term arrangement or marriage – before turning loose with the romanticism, that romantics can flourish, albeit without part of the drama and pain that needn’t characterize (or become a bad habit for) the romantic.
We need to fill in for the Daddy that isn’t standing on the front porch, daring any Junior to ask permission to trifle with your . . . affections.
.-= Brad K.´s last blog ..br: The practice doll =-.
@Meant,
“He just sounds sooo sincere though, about really wanting to be with me instead of her – but obviously his actions speak volumes.”
He had sent me a video of himself talking about our “relationship”. I watched it the other night (here’s to Self-Torment…) and all the I-can’t-be-without-yous sounded still ever so convincing. But he *is* without me. So many times over the past 7 months he’s said how he wants to just get in his car and drive, and not stop till he arrives at my door. Well, last time I checked, Kansas and Tennessee and all the other places he’d pass through had not shut down the freeways.
Which makes me wonder – would Wuthering Heights been a longer novel had Heathcliffe pursued Cathy from afar with a webcam?
Here’s a bit of good news. Try this on for size and see how it works for you: I was sitting on the edge of the bathtub just a little while ago after showering my dog and missing him. I tried to visualize him coming down the hallway and through the door to brush his teeth or what have you and…. my heart did not skip a beat! I looked at what I was thinking closely and realized that I was rather glad that I would get off my wet butt, mop up the tile, wash up and go to bed. And I was picturing doing all these things solo; fitting him into the picture felt disruptive.
I got the “what is someone like you doing with someon like me” line many times just as you did. Maybe both yours and mine were on to something here after all?
@aphrogirl “Let those things starve to death, so to speak, as they should.” Perfection, truly, you said it.
@Aega – If NC is difficult just because you are in a traffic jam consider this. You took a step away from a life which was entirely designed (at the time) to free you up to be WITH the guy. Now, he has rejected you not because he was fed up with your behaviour and emotional unavailability, but because the on/off switch in his head has flipped to off. You are vulnerable, can’t speak the language, your bridges were burned in your homeland by someone replacing you within a few days and the beacon of hope that shimmers in the distance is still sending you pulses. You are strong, you keep going, then on the first night in your new place the bar where you are drinking coffee decides to not only play a song which reminds you of him but plays the entire “definitive favourite album” of his. …
A little boredom is no excuse. Sorry. You need to gain some new things to do in that car of yours.
@Meant – don’t apologise for talking about yourself
I will drop you a line later when I am finished at work.
I ended up talking to that guy on MSN last night, out of curiousity. All my thoughts about him were confirmed, seemed to think we were going to pick up where we left off. He justified, tried to realign, said he was aware he had missed an opportunity and then ultimately said the ball was in his court (which I was more than happy about since it was his ball). I was fascinated to see how one dimensional the guy was, how he was pushing different buttons to see if they manipulated and how he said my “resistance” to him was making him hard. TMI probably, I actually took zero notice of this. The one thing he didn’t do was apologise for wasting my time … it wasn’t so much that he had red flags as he had a skin rash spelling out “tosser” on his forehead in big red spots. I was polite but firm, letting him know exactly where I stood and in the end with the ball still in his court he decided that talk time was over.
As I have said before, this is instant death with me. Conversations, two way, end naturally even when there is disagreement so bye bye Mr Assclown.
It’s a nice feeling and one I can apply to the real idiots mentioned above even if not yet entirely to my mirage man. Thing is, by starving my mirage man as aphrogirl says he is dying off.
@Brad
“We need to fill in for the Daddy that isn’t standing on the front porch, daring any Junior to ask permission to trifle with your . . . affections.” I’m laughing a lot despite crying a little because it’s such an apt allegory, even if it had been my Mom all the boys in highschool and college had feared… (my Dad was “cool”, meaning not easily torn away from a book or a plate of sushi). You have no idea how often this whole affair has struck me as juvenile and my role in it as that of a pawn when the chessboard is still full (I think I would have preferred it to be an affectation of the wealthy). It doesn’t make it hurt any less – after all, when you’re out of the game you’re out – but it does help me push the boulder up and over yet another hill when I think of it.
I don’t know about the recorder… My instrument has always been the piano, which might unfortunately prove a little unwieldy propped up in the passenger seat .Actually, traffic is usually the time to unwind and enjoy a moment of quiet, but today I had driven to a meeting about a 115 miles away and got stuck for over 4 hours on the way back. That’s a long time to belt out off-key 20-year-old hits, which is what I used to do before I became a suffering-and-consumptive-Victorian-romantic-in-training. Who knows, this newly silenced pensive version of me may even qualify my for a carpooling club.
I really am too tired to keep track of what I’m thinking before I type it out. Sleep first, logic later.
@Butterfly,
It’s like you were in the car with me… the song that made me immediatly switch the station was “What Might Have Been”. OK, maybe not immediately since I did indulge myself and wallowed for the first few bars. The second station was in the middle of “So Happy Together”. I turned the thing off then, afraid that I’d run into Kelly Clarkson before I reached NPR…
@Meant…
Well, I was coming to rescue you, but I got distracted looking for the rosary beads and the holy water. I think I used it all with my x-fool.
Did I mention to you all that I suspect viagra use with my AC? Was sitting here crying about wondering if I am feminine enough…aand I thought of that. Then I thought about Butterfly. LOL Funny how my face is wet and my eyes are red, but I can’t help thinking about his flaws and LMBO. Ahhh…love and recovery!
BTW…yEAH…this is day two of the period.
@ Butterfly:
“it wasn’t so much that he had red flags as he had a skin rash spelling out “tosser†on his forehead in big red spots.”
I’m memorizing this, Butterfly, because I’m determined to quote it verbatim to someone someday, lolololol
love, Leonine
LOL – even if it doesn’t sink in maybe you’ll enjoy saying it if someone really deserves it.
Yanno, I am in a great mood today. It’s like the less of these bozos get to claim my time the lighter my step is. I never realised how much they drag you down even when you don’t consciously think about them. Plus, I didn’t stop listening to Velvelt Revolver but I don’t really think about him either … thanks aphrogirl!
@Meant OK, when I started talking to Narky (that suits him cos he often was in a crappy mood) again and was thinking “omg can it be true?” (answer = no of course not you silly woman) I noticed that the high wasn’t really really there for long but that the dragging anxiety feeling hit and stayed. I’m not going to join in where people have said “be careful” … nah. There’s wish fulfillment going on in that direction, right back into the rubbish that was there before. You already know now that the world doesn’t end with this guy not in it, that the idea of him is better than the actual reality no matter how nice a voice he has or how nice he smells.
While we’re on that point … this is a basis for continued pain? Buy some incense and some music with a singer whose voice you sound sexy!!! I’m joking of course but these are not attributes which make anything worthwhile as a relationship you know!
So no date tonight. I’m ok with that though I do want to go out this weekend and get tipsy, let my hair down
@Aega – “would Wuthering Heights been a longer novel had Heathcliffe pursued Cathy from afar with a webcam†– lol, hilarious thought. Glad to hear your EUM/MM is losing his appeal, even in your imagination.
@Jetred – thanks for the thoughts and prayers. I only need rescuing from myself I suppose, and hope this will happen, perhaps with the help of this therapist I’ll be starting with soon. That’s good you’ve been crying – it’s good to let it all out, even if hormones are being a catalyst. My night of crying in the hotel room had an estrogen fluctuation component too, I think. But I still felt better afterwards, and I hope you will too.
@Butterfly – sorry to hear about your date being cancelled. I hope you are still planning to go out, get tipsy, and let your hair down this weekend! Re: my ex – “the idea of him is better than the actual reality no matter how nice a voice he has or how nice he smells.†– yes, that is getting to be more and more the case as time goes by. And sure, his smell and voice affect me in a physical way, but he does have other qualities that attract me, lol. Hmmm, now that I typed that, I’m not sure that *I* can think of a whole lot of qualities of his that *are* that irresistible. He is shy, quiet, and a “people pleaserâ€, so not my usual type (and he’s not really very attractive, either). But I feel sorry for him because of his difficult childhood (his mother dying when he was young) and he just seems clueless about some things – like he needs to be helped – and that speaks to the “rescuer†part of me. And I do like it when he’s very sweet and thoughtful towards me – taking care of me in little ways, etc. And of course I am drawn in to the drama as interacting with him feels similar to interacting with my father when I was young. It feels “natural” and “comfortable” to be with him. And he really does have some wonderful skills in the bedroom. Maybe there’s not much there to form the basis of a relationship after all – maybe not even a friendship!
He emailed me this morning, and thanked me for letting him back in to my life for a brief time. I`m not sure I`m going to reply
Oh Meant I dunno if I should laugh or cry, so I am just going to point you back at NML’s book. Seriously babes, it’s TEXTBOOK. Absolutely textbook … the “fixer upper”. I am very guilty of this.
I’m not down about the date, if it is going to happen then it is going to happen, end of. All the vibes are not setting off my bullshit alarm, including that he let me know in lots of time.
I am in an email conversation with someone who is here in the same city under very similar circumstances and the red flags are waving merrily away in the breeze lol. I stand by my attitude that these are assCLOWNS as once you see past “the one” you see they really are all the same. This one keeps asking me to tell him my sexual likes and dislikes and to go for a drink. Do I look impressed and enticed?
OH hell I meant to say to you Meant (lol) if he is sending you a message thanking you for letting him back into your life for a brief time PLEASE READ IT PROPERLY:
~Thank you for letting me back into your life. I’ve had a nice time, and my ego is nicely plumped up. Course, that’s it now until next time I get chance and with any luck next time you’ll do what is expected and get on your knees so I don’t have to wait till I get home to the wife for some”.
I wonder if I would even know how to act on a bonafide date. A real date…too much to even think of.
I ran up on a conversation my ex-slug and I had…(okay, okay…I was looking for it. Just needed to…I don’t know why) Anyway…I’m not really sure what I was doing with him. I wanted him…I still want him. But I wonder what drew me to him. My self asteem issues are always part of my life struggle, but I seem to have sunk to a new low. Even for me. Well…it wasn’t so much what we spoke of that made me wonder this, but that I was reading the words…hearing his voice…seeing his probable expression and…I’m just not getting to the next step in the process. I feel that I may need a very long time to reconcile with myself…to forgive myself for accepting the bad feelings and anxiety he “gifted” to me. There are people that I know who would be totally stunned to know the place I’m at right now, emotionally for this “type” of man. How could it happen? I used to listen to him say things like, “I’m usually right, but people have to make mistakes before they admit it” or I said something to him like, “Okay, so now you’re lying” in jest, and he said with a completely serious tone…”I don’t lie.” I had to stop walking past him to the kitchen and come back and have him repeat it. I must have known he was lying then and lying always. I wonder if he even realizes that he lies?
I swear the best part of this site is how it completely negates your notion of how unique your MM/EUM/AC was or is. Butterfly, you are so right – once you realize that the “one” was actually cast from a cheap and common plastic mould it’s kind of hard to think that you are missing out on that one and only soulmate that fate will never toss your way again. In fact, maybe you can even find one at Walmart and I just never knew because I refuse to shop there…
Maybe in addition to our fixer-upper (looovev that term!) tendencies, we all somehow made ourselves believe that we had the diamond in the rough and the fact that we saw it while no one else did made us special. Now that diamond turns out to be fool’s gold instead. So much for special, huh?
We have all kind of admitted here too that none of these guys were really good-looking. Mine is average, I suppose; you know, regular features, good hair, average height. He has a great sense of humor but if I think about it objectively a lot of it comes from our shared history and developing all those private cues and jokes. I went to this seminar yesterday and – busines world being what it is – I was one of only two women in a conference room chockful of men. They were all smart, many good-looking, and two or three that had me laughing till I snorted. I pictured the MM briefly among all these other folks and he came up pretty bland. Btw, I am also happy to report that it was a pretty fleeting thought and probably there only because someone had mentioned a project that my bozo had done last year. My wallowing came later when I was alone with my thoughts on the way home.
So why did we all go for these guys in the first place? Mine used to tell me how he liked to go to dinner with me because he would watch the other guys in the room watching me. He said they must have wondered how he’d ended up with me. Well, I think I would like to know that too.
I havent posted on here in quite some time, but after reading this i felt i needed to. I’m finally accepting that me and my EUM are done, over…kaput. He’s moved back in with his ex because i refused to buy him an phone….whatever,fine. Then he tries a new tactic. He starts telling me he loves me, etc. He has never once in the 4 years i’ve known him said that. but he’s not leaving her. what a suprise. he wants us to have a child (but not tell her) so he can stay in my life. I have to stay this latest display has throw me for a loop. it’s crazy! i’m beginng college on monday ( or going back rather) and finally focusing on attaining some of my goals. I can’t see myself being the other woman forever. what kind of life is that? not only that, but i’m on a new daily medication for my migraines (which needless to say have gotten worse because of all this) and it’s making me EXTREMELY emotional……i feel sometimes that just as i’m on my out, he starts reeling me back in. i think i need a therapist!!
.-= dazedandconfused´s last blog ..Family Picture =-.
Aega,
“What we thought was a diamond in the rough was only fools gold!”
That’s good.
I actually said to the MM once after I was pretty much on my way out of believing him 2 years into it, “how do I know that you’re not just “fool’s gold?”
And he said “because I’ve never felt this way before.”
It was about him, not “us.”
I also learned a lot while reading other women’s stories that helped me to realize that these types of guys aren’t special and unique, they’re more like cookie cutters who all have the same shaped way of dealing with women.
I couldn’t believe how many of the lines I read from other women’s men were the exact same ones I heard. And was thankful to have found that out!
” He had sent me a video of himself talking about our “relationshipâ€.
!!! !!!!
Which makes me wonder – would Wuthering Heights been a longer novel had Heathcliffe pursued Cathy from afar with a webcam? ”
This just continues with NML’s warnings that texting email and “non engaged” communication is the hallmark of the EUM. A video huh…probably have been much like having him there. And you were right to face his words “I should just drive out there” for what they are…his fanstasy that feeds your fantasy.The thing that is so weird as I think about affairs is that if I was his wife, I would want to sensibly consider the state of my marriage if I knew my husband was telling someone else he’d rather be with them.
Meant and everyone, we share our thoughts, theories and experiences with each other because it helps clear up our EUM confused heads, we really have been through something really difficult to comprehend..both their confusing behavior, and our disturbing reactions to, and enabling of, that behavior.
I have been through plenty in my life but hands down this has been the most difficult thing. Also, lets all realize that any attempt to analyze and write probably helps others as well as ourselves, We are very lucky to have others here; we understand our pain and confusion. Of the people I have confided in about EUM only one understood, she is married to an EUM, and not going anywhere, and she just told me to get out. While we may be able to get out, apparently we can’t just ” snap out of it ”
So now the concern is how did I miss so much. Brad’s posts continue to say the same thing because he is defining the most important point of relationships with others. If we want to have mature healthy relationships we have to seek out mature healthy people to have them with. Sometimes you have to be involved with unhealthy people, but other times we have the choice. While it’s not fair to expect perfection, everyone can slip into unhealthy or juvenile behavior, there are people that are comfy with an immature level of emotional intelligence, and then there are those like us who see it and are not comfortable with it. If someone appears to want to stick with an unhealthy relationship, we must learn to walk away asap because they are probably very content engaging in a versions of torturous and unfullfilling relationship. And we will tire ourselves, and likely become something like them if we trying to help them look at it more maturely.
@Butterfly,
Thanks for interpreting his email, lol. Yes, he is a “fixer-upper”, and to be honest, I don’t know how his wife has put up with him for all these years. When we had the discussion about all the things I was dissatisfied about in our relationship (including not really knowing how he felt about me), he said no one had ever really probed him about how he felt, so he’s never even felt the need to say ‘I love you” to anyone! If this is true, I do feel sorry for her and wonder how low her expectations can be.
That’s pathetic your email man is asking your sexual likes already, before you’ve even gone on a “date”. Can they not see that makes it obvious what they are after?
@Jetred – did your ex lie about a lot of things? Did you catch him in the lies? I just have a feeling that my ex lies, but have never really caught him on it (except, of course I know he *had* to be lying to his wife about where he was while we met at the motels).
@Aega – you know, your story about the meeting with the many men and few women sounds familiar too (that’s great you laughed till you snorted – good for the soul). I was also socializing with a group of men at the conference, and once had a bunch of them standing all around me (the only woman in the group), laughing and joking around. I could see my ex looking at the situation, and later he said he was jealous of one of the men in particular getting more “face time” with me than he did. I thought about the ex, and compared them to these men, and I must admit, the ex did not compare well as far as being fun, open, easy to talk to, etc.
At a previous conference (when we were still “together”), he told me he got a kick out of seeing me talk to other men, just knowing that I would “ditch” the other guy to be with *him* by the end of the night. They really are competitive, aren’t they? and need to be validated by associating with attractive women.
“why do we all go for these guys in the first place?” Great question – I think that is what NML is trying to teach us here…
@dazedandconfused
He wants you to have his *baby* and not let his primary partner know????
Please, please tell us you would never consider this set-up!!! How selfish of him to want you to continue in the shadows, give birth to his offspring while he continues in his double life which revolves around *his* needs. No, that is not any kind of life for you OR for any resulting baby. A child needs all the love they can get – and how available would he be to that child he is suggesting?
You mentioned therapy for yourself, and I strongly recommend you think about that seriously. I have just recently made the call for an appointment myself, and feel very positive about the potential benefits for me. As aphrogirl said, the EUM relationship can be one of the most difficult things to experience, especially alone. Soon you will be busy back in school, and may not have the time or energy to make that call, so please, if you’re serious about trying therapy, make that call soon! Maybe today?
Hello ladies,
I was wondering if you could please offer a few words of incouragement for me, as I am struggling very much today and want to reach out to my assclown/EUM. Today I have reached NC for 10 days and this is longest I have ever gone without speaking to him or seeing him. My heart hurts today and I keep asking myself why? why? why?. We were together for 1.5 years and lived together for most of it. We broke up and I moved out 3 months ago and he kept saying he was “confused” and “not sure what he wanted” and I eventually was demoted to simply a booty call, while he spends time with other girls and flirts with them openly. I know he is bad news and all my friends are sick of hearing me talk about him and cry. I just miss him so much today and wonder why he didnt think I was worth the effort of putting both feet back in the relationship and working out our problems. Why did he continue to text me and show up at my house when he new I wasnt over him? Why did I let him come in and out of my life for months and expect him to one day value me and want me back? I miss him so much.
I have been reading this site for 3 months now and know how strong all of you are and would really appreciate words of encouragement today. Thanks :’(
@Tara
That’s great you are on day 10 of NC – even that can be soooo difficult, and it’s the longest time you’ve gone without talking to him, which is encouraging.
Yes, NC is very difficult, and we have all missed our exes at times, even when we know they are no good for us. What is it that you miss exactly? Do you miss the fantasy version of him – the one that values you for who you are, who gives you what you need emotionally, the one you so desperately *want* him to be? Or is it the real version – the one he has shown you through his actions, the one who disrespects you by turning you into a booty call while flirting and possibly sleeping with other women, the one who doesn’t know if he wants to be with you or not?
“Why did he continue to text me and show up at my house when he new I wasnt over him? ” – he texts you because he wants to keep the door open for future “intimate encounters” or ego strokes. He is thinking of his own needs, not yours. These EUM’s are not capable of empathy – they have deep feelings for only themselves.
“Why did I let him come in and out of my life for months and expect him to one day value me and want me back? ” – because you are his fall back girl, and you have not established boundaries with him, nor taught him the appropriate way to treat you (many of us here are guilty of this – myself included!!!). NML might say you are living in a fantasy world where these EUM’s actually have an epiphany and change the way they see things, and suddenly value you even though you have put up with their crappy behaviour in the past. Sorry, but it just ain’t gonna happen. Have you read some of NML’s other posts on here about relationship insanity, self esteem issues, and how to spot emotionally unavailable men?
You know he’s not good for you. Your friends know he’s not good for you. Have you written out a list of all the things he’s done that hurt you? You have chosen to go NC to protect yourself from further hurt from him. You need to work on yourself now – what do *you* need to be happy? Therapy? exercise? reading a good book? a night out with your gf’s? you CAN do this, you just have to get over the rough patches (and trust me, there will be more of them), so get out and do something for YOU.
Keep posting here – personally I find it extremely helpful.
Wishing you the best Tara – you’re worth it.
@ Tara, I’m galloping out at the moment, so not a lot of time! I just wanted to second everything Meant said; to wish you the best on your way; and to let you know that when I first came here I certainly wasn’t “strong” in any way! I was a fed-up, confused, insulted, solitary, scared heap
Keep at it and read NML – the info here from her and the darling bloggers is like a University education.
love, Leonine
@ Tara – hey hon. Keep with it, it gets easier. Yet again I am seeing the same words I have heard myself. Others have seen me say, and I don’t care about saying it again, I have literally wanted to die over the feelings that dealing with this idiot raised – please notice I am not saying what he did to me: what I allowed myself to put up with.
If you go back you get the same shit different day, or maybe worse. I can’t agree enough with Leonine, how I wish I’d seen this site before but of course I didn’t cos deep down I didn’t want to get over this man until I started trying to.
LADIES I AM TALKING TO YOU the fact that you are here speaks the inside truth that you know on an intuitive level, not the conscious which keeps telling you that you are in love with an illusion.
@dazed – holy hell, I had wondered how you are. This guy is a complete waste of DNA, and he wants to propogate it? How you aren’t telling him to F OFF as the only response you give I think needs applause for your patience. Urgh
@Meant – you were talking about qualities yeah? I tried to make a list of what I actually miss about him and …
Yeah. LOL. I miss my mirage sometimes but the idiot who was holding up the mirror? Nah. Nah.
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