As soon as I hear the words “If it were me…” or “I’m the type of person that…” and they are explaining their frustration with a person, or even their rationale for making excuses for them, I internally say “UH OH.” It immediately indicates that they are very likely blinkered in their view of things and over-empathising.
We all have our take on things which represents how we think we’d act in a situation, what we think might cause us to react in a certain way, our perception of what is behind our intentions and those around us, how we think others who represent our values and ideals might or ‘should’ act, and in essence, we all have our expectations. When a situation or person doesn’t meet those and our hopes, we are disappointed, which is natural. ; ;
The trouble with focusing on what you would do or highlighting what type of person you are, is that it makes it very ‘I’ focused – you can’t see the wood for the trees. You’re just one person and the only people who share a similar view to you are those who share your values. The fact that you are interested in someone, or they’re your friend, or you’ve slept together, are in relationship, are madly in love with them, or they’re even related to you, doesn’t mean that they will see or do things in the same way as you.
Even if someone does something similar to you or is doing the same thing at the same time as you or with you, it doesn’t mean that you share the same intentions or are even governed by the same mentality. Classic example, two people sleeping together, one intending for it to be more and feeling like it’s very special and they’re ‘making love’ and the other person is just having sex.
You might be or do something for certain reasons or under certain circumstances, but someone else might not.
When you over-empathise, you think you’re putting yourself in their shoes, but you’re actually putting yourself in your own shoes, imagining what you would do and feel in the same situation and what you imagine your intentions might be, and then you’re running with the assumption and projecting it onto them. It’s like half empathy or ‘emp’ – you forgot to include the reality of who they are.
You, for instance, may believe that you would only be driven to crime because you were desperate and/or you were going through a terrible time, and that you’d be wanting a better opportunity to come along / to be rescued by someone who cared about you, but someone else may commit crimes for entirely different reasons and actually have no desire to stop.
Equally, you may assume that because of your own experiences and background that someone else who has their own experiences and background where you may feel some ‘synergy’, that they’re operating under the same constraints , mentality, and habits as you. It makes you ask, “Who am I to judge?” and you go “Ooh, I have big problems and have made a few mistakes in my time and need someone to give me a chance” so ipso facto you think that they need you to give them a chance.
Depending on what the disparity is between what you would do and what they would, and in turn what this ‘gap’ represents about their character, values, and your future interactions with them, the fact that they are doing things very differently to what you would may indicate incompatibility.
What you don’t do is make it all about you in a “I think that people should think and act like I do. Why isn’t he/she doing that? Is it because I’m not good enough?” You’ll go into situations with a blinkered view and assume that people are singing from the same hymn sheet.
You’re not interacting with clones of yourself. The only person who truly thinks and acts like you is you. You don’t really need the person if all you’re going to do is project onto them who you think they should be. You have to take the time to get to know people as they are and see them for who they are, not as extensions of you. If you don’t, you’ll become complacent and you’ll make dangerous assumptions.
The fact that someone acts different to you doesn’t make your actions, mentality, and choices wrong or invalidate them – they’re yours. It may not even mean they’re ‘wrong’ but what it may means is that you’re incompatible.
When you ruminate with “I don’t understand! If it were me, I would have done X or I would have done Y”, it’s like choosing to ignore the truth and its meaning while actually blaming yourself for something that has nothing to do with you, because it becomes, “I don’t understand! If it were me, I would have done X or I would have done Y. Why didn’t they? Is it because I didn’t answer the phone on 3 rings or I’m not as pretty as X or I don’t have Y?”
Knowing what you’d do under certain circumstances and knowing how you act and what you think, is you acknowledging your values, and when there is a disconnect that causes you to be all “What the what now?”, you can look at the results and how you feel and see what someone’s perspective is.
I’ve had many a reader tell me for instance, that if they kept going back to an ex who they knew was crazy about them, it’s because they’d want to get back together. All of these people have felt the pain of discovering that this wasn’t the case for their ‘boomeranging’ exes. They could spend more time being perplexed by the fact that they weren’t back together and hoping that ‘next time’ their ex will ‘do the right thing’, or they could recognise that it might be how they roll, but their exes are rolling them out like a doormat.
You can think about “If it were you” but you can equally ask “It is them – what are they doing?” You can be perplexed, or you can be… in reality.
Your thoughts?
If you want to ‘un-perplex’ yourself, check out my books The Dreamer and the Fantasy Relationship and Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl which are available from my bookshop.
About the Author:
Natalie Lue is the founder and writer of Baggage Reclaim and author of the books Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl, The Dreamer and the Fantasy Relationship and more. Learn more about her here and you can also follow her on Facebook and Twitter - @baggagereclaim .
Natalie (NML) – who has written 1082 posts on Baggage Reclaim by Natalie Lue.
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@ Christine
I have to agree with Grace…. Just do it already and stop talking about it. Get on with NC and actually mean it. If I see you post NC day 1 one more time I think I will scream. Lol okay but really Its easy as 1…2…3… Its doing the same thing over and over again. Not even allowing that person to enter your thoughts cause you are simply too busy with LIVING LIFE to be worried about a man that’s not WORRIED or THINKING about you. Just get busy…. And stay busy..
Hey all, I have no idea how to get rid of this assclown well now he has vanished since he got what he wanted. This has been going on and off for two years n a few months and in between (when we were off), I would meet worse dipshits than him. I managed to stay aways from him sexually for three months n just last week i slept with him and like he always does he dissapeared. I tried blocking his calls but i end up unblocking them,how do i lose this asshole coz i always swear i will never go back but i always do. The sex is far from being good,hes not even all that but why cant i just stop going back to that loser?? Please help!
ms.jones-
you will stop when you truly, really, honestly, and finally believe you deserve better. when you are ready to go out and get better.
from my own experience, the men i was drawing into my life changed when *i changed* – when i set standards that i upheld, more clearly (and gently) articulated what i was asking for and what i was offering, and when i valued myself enough, and in a compassionate, flexible way, to support the elements above. when i simply no longer tolerated bullshit AND i actively sought, by putting mySELF out there differently, higher quality people – by higher quality, i mean integrity, honesty and values and goals that were similar to mine.
look, there’s no way around it. you HAVE to change. start confronting whatever emotional wounds you have that make you choose poor quality men.
i know i’ve written this before here: make a list of all the qualities you want/must have in a man; and make a list of the all the qualities you must NOT have in a man. if a man does not fit BOTH lists, you do not date him, you do not sleep with him, you have no contact with him.
but first you must do for yourself what you need to do to believe you deserve the above lists.
this is the same thing as what i wrote here earlier. a man must
1- be nice to you
2- not freak you out
and read all of natalie’s articles.
big hug honey. do NOT sleep with him again.
I would like to know hoe to proceed.
I have left my assclown after 2 yrs of relationships while he was still divorcing his wife. I met him 1 year after the divorce proceedings and to be honest, just like Natalie said in her book, ” they can not commit either way, not to being divorce ” or being in a relationship. I broke it off, and of course it is my fault, as you all have experienced before and i applied the NC rule.
I have been subpeona to appear in their on going divorce, 3 months after i had left.
I have to appear, but I feel so betrayed by him as I feel he was trying to get back at me for leaving him.
I would like to get your input, beside getting a lawyer which I did, how should I act?
confused1-
i’m not sure what you’re asking – how should you act? toward him?
tell me if i get it wrong: he jerked you around while he was still in divorce proceedings and you had to leave him to save yourself because he wouldn’t/couldn’t commit to you; and somehow, you got ordered to appear in court as what, a witness in the divorce, which i assume is nasty and contentious, and which you assume is his way of getting back at you.
so, after this, how should you act? lessee: how about “thanks for dicking me around and then dragging me into court, you gigantic jerk! i wouldn’t have to APPEAR IN YOUR STUPID DIVORCE if it weren’t for you getting me ORDERED TO! what do you do for an encore, steal my identity and ruin my credit? burn my house down? once i leave this courtroom, i expect to never hear from you again, you colossal loser. if i do, i’ll get a restraining order, hear me?”
waddaya think? too much?
ok, how about this: freeze him out and let your lawyer do all the talking. pick a lawyer who is a nasty pitbull and, if he tries to speak to you, have the lawyer forbid him to his face from engaging with you directly on pain of lawsuit.
i can’t believe you have to go to court. that’s horrible. sorry, honey.
*editors note – this is a different Fed Up* I’m having the same problem as Ms. Jones. My AC won’t go away and it’s been a few years. We didn’t even know each other long. When I noticed several red flags, I bailed. I just found out someone has been listening to my cell calls( spyware makes it so easy to do). I strongly suspect AC is behind it. Technology is a blessing and a curse sometimes. I feel so sick about it.
Dear FedUp,
Isn’t that illegal? He’s not just an AC, he’s a stalker if that’s what he is doing and should be reported.
By the way, if you post again, might you either call yourself Fed Up, Too, or Two, or another name that can distinguish you from the 25-year-old Fed Up who lives with her parents who has been posting here for quite a while?
@ Christine
For some of us, we only make a change to our lives when the prospect of staying the same is more excruciating than making the change.
I’m paraphrasing someone’s quote, but you get the idea. For me, I was reduced to such a horribly low spot in my life that I had no choice but to go NC. It was like my true self had stepped in and taken charge, pushing the weakened me out of the way. The humiliation and loss of self-respect was killing me. Once I cut the ex off completely, it hurt like hell and took a lot of work to stop hurting… but the experience was nowhere near as demoralizing and awful as being in that relationship. And today, a year later, I’m so thankful I had the conviction to do it, or else I’d have destroyed more of my self-esteem and wasted more of my precious, wonderful life on a woman-hating loser.
Hi @grace,
I did actually like him. We spoke quite a few times on the phone, and we both had the same interests in common, appeared interested in meeting up, and were both looking for the same thing. It is more the constant disappointment of having people disappear on me without so much as a phone call, and only a cowardly little text or email, once I show a smidgen of interest.
But hey, he’s gone now and I’m not about to go seeking a rejection retraction.
natslayer
aw, he hasn’t rejected you, he doesn’t even know you to reject you. I know it’s rich coming from me but we need to be less extreme.
And you didn’t know him well enough to take it to heart. It’s all very well what they say, it’s not the same as interacting with them over time.
I’m glad you bounced it but my recent experience teaches me this – turn down the meter (not the same as ignoring red flags).
As for dropping you by text, it’s not nice or mature so at least be pleased you know that about him sooner rather than later. On the plus side, I think I’d prefer a text to having to having a tedious conversation with someone who is little more than a stranger about why they don’t fancy it anymore.
And for what it’s worth, I think 2 hours is too far. I’ve had a lot of long distance relationships (you don’t say!) and friendships and it’s very very nice indeed for me to have friends on my doorstep now. This hasn’t been the case for years.
Regarding a comment from our dear runnergirl further up the page (in response to Christine McD)
Runner:
“Once I understood, truly understood, how humiliating it was, the trance was broken.”
Me too runner. It’s related to the concept here in Nat’s post – to truly understand our own behaviour from somewhere outside of ourselves and our wishful thinking we need to mentally separate ourselves from him for just long enough to see ourselves from his perspective – and once you do, the trance is broken. It’s not an attractive look!
Christine McD – understanding that this relationship really, really is humiliating for you from any external perspective – his included! – is the first key you need to get out of this warren of self-annihilation. Mentally separate yourself from him and what you think he thinks and what you think he feels for just long enough to see what he is seeing.
re my previous comment:
I didn’t see myself, my behaviour or the relationship from the ex EUM’s perspective and as a result I kept trying to get him to do what I imagined I would do if I was him! Often that was just trying to get him to answer my text messages! Pfft. Stuff that for a malarkey.
Christine MacDonald (since you’re blessed with a good Scottish name!) and to all who are reading, I think this from Robert Burns (my national bard) says it better than i ever could:
O wad some Pow’r the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us
It wad frae monie a blunder free us
An’ foolish notion
What airs in dress an’ gait wad lea’e us
An’ ev’n Devotion
(Would translate as:
Oh, that God would give us the very smallest of gifts
To be able to see ourselves as others see us
It would save us from many mistakes
and foolish thoughts
We would change the way we look and gesture
and to how and what we apply our time and attention.)
yay Robbie Burns!
Oh perfect Fearless and thank you for the translation. There was a moment when I saw myself from somewhere outside of myself, my wishful thinking, and my dreaming as you say. I don’t know what he was seeing but I didn’t like what I saw and what I had become. It was the moment when “It wad frae monie a blunder free us…” Totally loved the quote.
It was a “looking glass” moment. Stopped me in my tracks.
Christine, if you are still reading, I hope your “looking glass” moment comes sooner rather than later. Mine came later but at least it came.
Fearless you have so wonderfully summarized “through the looking glass”: “Mentally separate yourself from him and what you think he thinks and what you think he feels for just long enough to see what he is seeing.”
Brilliant, just brilliant!
Hey runner (hope you’re doing good (hug)),
I know exactly what you mean; it’s like we’re stuck going round in circles in the hall of mirrors, then there’s a point where we see ourselves from above, from one external perspective – into one clear looking glass – and we don’t want to be that woman anymore!
And to do that we need to do as Nat says in this post – we need to see that we are *separate*: I am not him – he is not me; we do not share the same perspective.
I did some developmental cognitive psychology at uni, and I recall being particularly taken with one piece of research where they had toddlers look at a model of a rural/farm scene from different angles. It went some thing like this: Toddlers (A) could see a hill and a cow from their angle. Toddlers (B) could only see the farmhouse and the barn. When a toddler (A) was asked to show what toddler (B) could see, they’d show toddler (B) as also seeing a cow and a hill, which, of course, toddler (B) couldn’t see. The idea, of course, was to to identify the point of cognitive development at which a child should be able to see things from the perspective of another.
Eeeek! I think my problem was I couldn’t see EUM’s perspective because my own perspective was effed up. And I was mingling my own perspective with what I imagined was his, so it was a double eff-up!
I think you may have coined a new BR phrase: ‘the looking glass effect’!
Magnolia – I suspected you’d like the Burns quotation!
Hey Fearless and those still following this thread, I cannot take credit for the “looking-glass self”. It is a social psychological concept developed by Charles Horton Cooley in 1902. Natalie’s post and the Robert Burns poem and your comment reminded me of Cooley’s famous quote: “I am not what I think I am and I am not what you think I am; I am what I think you think I am”. (That one takes a while and Natalie says it better.) Subsequent work has expounded on Cooley and the looking-glass self is a person who can view himself or herself through other’s perceptions…we learn to see ourselves as others do. That was scary as hell when I saw myself as he probably did. As you say, it was a double eff-up for me too when you add the dreamer effect Natalie describes in her book. On track with Natalie’s recent post (good enough), more recent work suggests that: “The looking-glass self begins at an early age and continues throughout the entirety of a person’s life as one will never stop modifying their self unless all social interactions are ceased”. I think you, Natalie, and Robert Burns sum up the looking-glass self much better.
If I may Natalie…
Fearless, I was Toddler C, the dreamer. I was shown a picture of a married man with a wife of 20 some years, and three children. There could have been barns, cows, and hills in the pic as well. All I saw was us madly, deeply in love on a warm sand beach in Hawaii! I’d say thats a triple eff-up.
I was “I focused” as Natalie says. He wasn’t seeing what I was seeing or doing things in the same way I would. Duh…he’s not me and I’m not him, no matter how much we had in common. Add the dimension of Taurus stubbornness with Toddler C’s dreaming/denial and you have a recipe for…well…we know. It was when I caught that brief glimpse, through the looking glass. BR provided the looking glass. Forever grateful. And notice there is NO infix…
fearless-
that whole thing, all installments of it, was inspired. and absolutely correct.
good job, and thanks.
M … we’re smart and funny and wickedly attractive. Just keep talking to us.
Thanx cc, i have heard so many times that if i love myself more and value myself than i will stop doing this to me. I thought i did love myself but clearly not enough,i wish there was a manual that can teach me how to coz i have no idea where to start coz i’m tired of hurting and disappointing myself.
Ms. Jones,
You start by cutting off someone who is simply using you for sex. You are really allowing this guy to disrespect you.
You know the answers, but are not following through.
Have you sought counseling?
Hey Ladies – I have been reading BR for a while now and have been wanting to post but just didn’t even know how or where to start. So let me first say thank you to everyone who has been brave enough to tell their stories, brave enough to take a look at themselves and work on making a change, and brave enough to tell others the honest truth.
Like a lot of you, I am struggling to get out of a relationship that is breaking me down and tearing apart my entire self. About a year and a half ago I finally got out of a 9 year relationship that was emotionally abusive. Not knowing how I would ever be able to be in another relationship, I did end up meeting a man who seemed to be exactly what I needed to trust in relationships again. I went in with complete honesty telling him exactly what I was looking for in a relationship moving forward and what my expectations were. He was looking for the same exact thing. Skip forward quite a few months of 100% investment and it turns out he was lying about everything. He was not legally separated, he does not want kids (even though he said that was one of his dreams), and turns out the most important thing in life is money (not me like he said on many occasions). Needless to say I have been left devastated by the thought that someone could do this to another person. Because of course, “if it were me, I’d never come into someone’s precious life and wreak havoc with lies and manipulation.” And somehow, he has managed to turn this around and blame me. So I stick around because I always feel the need to prove that I am a good person and that what he is saying about me is not true.
Well, I have finally had enough shame and embarrassment. Thanks again everyone for creating a community where I feel empowered enough to share my own story.
Dear Lilian,
Thanks for sharing your story. It took me a long time to believe that someone could lie to me. In fact, it was just my most recent relationship that forced me to acknowledge that people do not behave as I would, that many can and do lie. I don’t know why I never wanted to believe that anyone could do that. Maybe I just had never learned to lie myself and so didn’t understand. But learning in that late relationship that a man could lie to me so often and so consistently made me wise up and eventually I came to reevaluate many of the relationships I’ve had – ones where I didn’t ever even suspect they were lying. And I now realize that I had often been lied to – my early boyfriends just got away with it.
Once you get out of this relationship and get a bit of distance you may be able to look back at the beginnings of it and see the moments when things didn’t seem quite right but you didn’t know what to make of that. Guys of this sort often rely on you not trusting your own instincts.
If he is a liar then you can be sure what he says about you is all about what serves his needs at any given moment. We’ve all been in that place of wanting not to acknowledge that the person next to us clearly doesn’t care about us. No need to be embarrassed here. Sounds like you’re ready to listen to all the bad feelings and get out of a situation that is not good for you.
Lilian,
Welcome. Thanks to Natalie we are very fortunate to have access to the community of BR. Let me just second everything Magnolia has already said.
“We’ve all been in that place of wanting not to acknowledge that the person next to us clearly doesn’t care about us.”
Ouch. Yes, it’s a very painful realisation. It’s no wonder it takes many of us a long time to acknowledge this – it’s sore, and it’s so sore because we have, as you say, Lilian, invested 100% – too much, too soon.
As Mags says, if you do a replay of the relationship in slow motion you’ll likely see there were signs that you missed. Reading Natalie’s archives here and perhaps her books will help you with that.
The thing now though is to opt out – asap. you should not be trying to prove yourself to him – you’ve got it the wrong way round; he is at fault if he has been deceitful; it’s not you who is distrusting – it’s him who is untrustworthy.
My ex did this kind of mind effery as well. For example, I’d find myself apologising and backtracking for implying he was lying to me when he plainly was lying to me – he knew it and I knew it! I remember once on the telephone I asked him if he would tell the truth about a particular thing to a particular person and his answer to me simply ‘either stop calling me a liar or stop talking to me’. But he was a liar. i knew it and he knew it! However, I knew if I didn’t backtrack he would get off the phone instantly and give me complete silent treatment – Forever! If I let him. I should have let him. But I was way over-invested and the very thought of his silent treatment/of never speaking to me again would send me into a blind panic.
Magnolia posted something here a while ago that I’ll ever forget: The minute one of you starts lying everything should stop.
Lilia, Stop everything. Stand your ground. He’s lying to you and effing with your head. You can’t trust him. It’s over. Whether you hang in there or not, it’s still over.
OMG! This is exactly the case with me too, Fearless. After all this went down and all the lies came out I was so upset. Then it became, “see, you are such an emotional and demanding person of course I can’t see myself spending the rest of my life with you.” Um, you just steamrolled over my hopes, dreams, trust and self-esteem and now MY reaction is why you don’t want to be with me. Why on earth would I ever apologize for being so upset….but I did. And I do. It’s mortifying.
I feel I have been left not even knowing which was is up or down because if I say this way is up, somehow I am convinced I am wrong. Yikes!
It is so hard to acknowledge that you have loved someone who doesn’t love you back – all the while telling you they do. That is where I am at right now…just plain acceptance.
Lilian
Totally same as my experiences with the ex! They really are f*krs these people. I think the reason we find it difficult to handle this stuff and keep second guessing ourselves on it is because, as Nat’s post explains, we cannot fathom that what he is saying can actually mean what we think it might mean because *if I were him* I could only be embarrassed and ashamed of my own crappy behaviour; *if I were him* I would be hanging my head in shame and asking for forgiveness NOT blaming the other person for being furious, hurt and disappointed. His reaction to our fury simply doesn’t compute so we second guess our own reactions and think we must have got it wrong somewhere.
We also think we know him to be a decent person who would never be so cruel as to pull these kind of stunts. We also are desperate not to have been so badly wrong about him in the first place. All this together skews our perspective so that we don’t know which way is up. I was forever asking myself: ‘WTF? Who DOES that? Is it me?!! it must be me cos this cannot possibly be what I think it is’ i.e. that this man I love is a mind-bending, manipulative, self-serving f**ker.
I’m sorry Lilian, but it is what you think it is.
Suggest you tell it to him like this :
“Um, you just steamrolled over my hopes, dreams, trust and self-esteem and now MY reaction is why *I* don’t want to be with *YOU*.”
His behaviour is a deal breaker. You must break the deal – with *him*.
lilian-
welcome, darling. you’re safe here. but that jerk you’re dating isn’t.
(rolls up her sleeves)
ok: “and somehow, he has managed to turn this around and blame me. so i stick around because i always feel the need to prove that i am a good person and that what he is saying about me is not true.” – what. the. fffffff…….?!?!?
prove you’re a good person? to whom exactly?
WHY do we all look to, lessee, just from your description of him, liars, future fakers, con artists, manipulators, and users to validate us, to give us our worth, to reassure us that yes, indeed, we are deserving of the air in our lungs?
would you give your life savings to a swindler for safe keeping? would you let an arsonist house sit? no? so you shouldn’t give your heart and your worth to a douchebag.
lilian – reread what you wrote about him. if what you wrote about him were written by someone on BR, what would you say? what would you think of a guy who was treating your best friend the way he is treating you?? wouldn’t you be pissed off? beyond belief? shouldn’t you be outraged on your own behalf at his betrayal instead of feeling ashamed?
and winning the good opinion of a moral and ethical derelict is – an oxymoron. not only is it not worth trying for, it cannot happen. he CANNOT validate you. he has no interest in validating you. he cannot love, he is not worthy of trust. he is only interested in what he can extract from you by subterfuge, brainwashing, and deceit. he is the antithesis of truth and respect. he is not worthy of your shame and embarrassment.
moreover – you have no need to be ashamed and embarrassed. you should be infuriated. and resolved.
and realize that you ARE a good person. the mistake you’re making is not that you’re bad – you’re not bad – you just invested too much too soon in a person of poor character. you believed what he said because you wanted to. you put your worth in his hands. when really, he was a piece of crap, and if he had a high opinion of you, THEN i’d be worried. who does he admire, anyway? al capone? jack the ripper?
cc’s rule #1: do not seek validation from an invalidator.
you don’t need him. you need you. do what mags and fearless said. dump his ass with your head held high. then go work on yourself until you see how valuable you are and you can choose better.
goodness.
cc
“winning the good opinion of a moral and ethical derelict is – an oxymoron. not only is it not worth trying for, it cannot happen. he CANNOT validate you. he has no interest in validating you.”
Exactly! These guys go on the idea that attack is the best form of defense. They cannot/will not validate you (or your reaction to their behaviour) because to do that is to invalidate themselves (and their behaviour); and they are very good at validating themselves and their behaviour – all at your expense.
fearless-
word! i think that’s the first clue – people who want to care about us want us to win, see it as a win for themselves, and want to win together. people who are asshats want us to lose, and lose at our own expense.
Thanks CC – all your words are true. And I hear them – I really hear them. And I am infuriated. Really, truly angry. I think the shame comes from staying way past its sell-by-date. I stay and stay and then feel humiliated by my own actions and pleas of desperation. And then feel humiliated even more when I am told that my crying and emotional reaction is ridiculous and just far too much for him to handle – thus making me a poor choice in a perspective partner. WTF? I should be saying that to him – not giving him chance after chance to spew more lies, excuses and possibly the opportunity to follow through on what he originally told me.
I am honestly tired of seeing the situation rationally but not taking the appropriate actions. And trust me, I do recognize that it is far more painful to stay and “battle” this tooth and nail, than how I feel on those days when I say “that’s it!” and don’t speak to him.
I just hope all of you know how much I truly appreciate all of your support and how much of a relief it is to finally just tell my story without feeling shame, embarrassment and judgement. This just may be my saving grace.
lilian, fearless, magnolia-
first lilian – good. while you’re fuming at him, try to be a little gentle on you. use the anger to help you see things truly more clearly. but please be careful to use it only for that, for clarity and reality, and not as a weapon against yourself. we’ve been doing that all our lives, and its awful. love you. see that you are worth defending, that you MUST defend you. in fact, now you see what happens when you don’t – you get some AC pulling your strings and asking you to thank him for it, then passing judgment on you. o.O? is he kidding? please. stay on your own side, keep practicing it and you’ll do ok.
fearless, mags- i gotta say, your eloquence on this is TRULY inspiring. all the “if i were him* examples and the mirror stuff from the other thread has made this all sink in for me and made me see clearly now how i totally did all this stuff with the ex-EUM (which i’m sure you’re all very sick of hearing about). i would spin and spin, grasping to get him to care the way i wanted, to treat me the way i wanted, instead of being quiet, looking calmly at the situation, and figuring out who HE was rather than how to get him to be who i wanted him to be. oy. or, god forbid, just leave when he spectacularly blundered, which he was always, always doing. but no. i gotta prove my worth. to an EUM.
why didn’t i just find a nice, hard wall to bang my head against…it might have been more productive.
oh, well. screw it. live and learn. and y’know what? i’m thinking about him less and less! (takes a relieving breath) i think i finally can say i’m actually in the letting go phase of letting go – y’know the one in which i actually let go. thank the blessed stars and all that is holy. ’bout friggin’ time.
hugs
runnergirl, if you’re reading-
i gotta credit you with the above as well (all that mirror stuff from the other thread). thanks all you guys.
i am humbled and grateful by everyone’s wisdom. and natalie’s. thanks, guys.
Lilian
We understand. These guys make us feel so crappy about ourselves that when we know we need to cut our losses and run is also when we feel the least capable of doing it because we are at such a frail emotional low and our instinct is to reach out to him, not to reach out to ourselves. i remember feeling this way; thankfully I reached a point where I knew I had to stop reaching out to him (he could never help me – he only increased my misery) and I had tried to end it too many times by reaching into myself, but I did not have the armory – that’s when I reached out to the world (well, Google, actually!). I think my epiphany, finally, was that he couldn’t help me, I couldn’t help me; I had to get help from somewhere else – finally I had fallen so low that I had the humility, desperation and, yes, embarrassment to do that. I found Natalie here at BR and eventually with her advice I developed the armory to help myself. The best advice as a first step that I got at that time was simple – No Contact.
Lilian, this relationship your in is rotten. It’s done; you are merely prolonging the inevitable and dragging yourself further into the pit of self-annihilation. No contact will give you the space and distance to get the clarity, to clear the fog and so to regain the emotional strength you to so desperately need and want. NC him asap, as hard as it is, do it, and then sit back, feel the pain, focus on you, and trust in the process. It works!
lilian-
i thought more about this.
recently i briefly dated an AC, probably my first true AC, a bona fide future faker, woman user, jobless, lying lothario good for nothing. and that’s putting it nicely. i’ve chronicled this on other posts.
he told me i had “trust issues”. now, once upon a time, i would have wigged and then turned myself inside out to prove to him that he was wrong. but, thanks to the work i’ve done, including BR, my AC-to-non-AC decoder ring kicked in and it translated his statement as “you actually have a spine and i see that i can no longer pull the wool over your eyes. i can’t manipulate you. therefore, i have no use for you.”
see? of course he told me i have trust issues – he was a con artist. and everything he did was so clearly a manipulation to set me up so he could use me in a very specific way. and his rejection was still a rejection, which never feels good, but really, a rejection from an AC? that’s a compliment!!
now, where i could have gotten hung up is in the knowledge that i do in fact have trust issues. but now i know that a normal person who actually wanted to care about me would have slowed his roll and worked to build my trust. just because i have trust issues doesn’t mean the AC wasn’t an AC and wasn’t trying to use me.
and, in fact, my “trust issues” acted as a boundary that prevented me from falling for his (rather transparent) crap. and my resistance to his bullshit acted as a way to verify that he was in fact bullshitting me. i proved to not be easy prey – therefore, he moved on. to a more willing victim. and i know this for a fact.
…sorry….more…
now, did i, for one second, envy her? yes. but then the decoder ring kicked in again – and i realized she’s just a female carpet, ready for him to walk all over her. i thought back on his recounting of their (prior) relationship – and realized that she laid herself out for him from the very beginning. that’s what he’s used to women doing for him. i’m proud to not count myself among their (rather large) number.
and it makes me wonder what the hell was wrong with all of them. truly, what was so great about him, if what you need to do to win him is basically let him mooch off you for money, housing, food, sex, and get nothing back, all while just handing over all of your self-esteem. his loyalty was LITERALLY bought. no thanks. talk about sticker shock.
so, don’t psych yourself out. stick to your guns. losing this guy is no loss. it is you who will be gained.
more hugs
CC – This is exactly what I needed at the exact right moment. This mind manipulation is out of control and is leaving me in such disarray.
After a horribly upsetting day of boundary breaking and lying by the AC, I was talking with one of my best friends from childhood via IM about what’s been going on and how upset I was with my situation. Well little did I know the AC had hacked into my computer and was reading my conversation. Then told me he would never talk about be behind my back and could not forgive me for doing so. So let me get this straight – you break into my computer and read a private conversation where I have the right to vent and express my feelings to my friend and then you tell me I have done something wrong and unforgivable! No matter how many times this was discussed it is always brought up as a strike against me. That flag wasn’t just red it was on fire and I stuck around and got burned.
I too have caught myself being jealous of the other woman he has in his life – but when I am really honest with myself I know that I don’t want the relationship she has. If it’s anything close to the crap he has offered me for a year it’s nowhere close to the relationship I want and deserve.
Things are tough now, but I want to be able to look back in the near future and be proud of myself for finally choosing to not stick around and accept this behavior and continue to defend myself to someone who does not have my best interest at heart (if he even has one).
Thanks again for your support.
I too have caught myself being jealous of the other woman he has in his life – but when I am really honest with myself I know that I don’t the relationship she has. If it’s anything close to the crap he has offered me for a year it’s no where close to the relationship I want and deserve.
Things are tough now, but I want to be able to look back in the near future and be proud of myself for finally choosing to not stick around and accept this behavior and continue to defend myself to someone who does not have my best interest at heart (if he even has one).
Thanks again for your support.
Lillian,
Time to end this farce!!!
cc and Lilian,
cc,I loved the “Decoder Ring”. I couldn’t figure it out but you nailed it. It is the “BR Decoder Ring”. Lillian keep the faith and keep reading BR. It’s like the prize ring at the bottom of the cereal box. And this one really works. Just a short example. I went out with a nice guy a few weeks ago. He seemed nice, things went well and I agreed to a second date. His idea of a second date was at his place on the beach. Umm, er, no! Even though the idea of playing frisbee on the beach and a bbq sounded wonderful, this guy was a perfect stranger. When I said I was not ready to go to his house after only meeting him for 3 hours, he responded that I wasn’t being clear and we weren’t reading off the same page. My handy dandy BR Decoder Ring came in handy. Me: I’m not hopping into the sack with you on a second date. If it were me, I’d never expect that. Him: I don’t like your answer, therefore you aren’t being clear. Since I am me and not you, I expect that.
Like cc said, if he would have slowed his roll and we could have gotten to know one another, maybe? We will never know.
Lillian, I know you are in the throws of it but keep reading BR. There is an amazing prize at the end of the box. I don’t want to spoil it but I can’t resist…the prize is YOU!
If it were me, I’d do…oh it is me. Hello me. Love to you all.
Fearless – Agree. It seems that the point at which I am so fed up is also my lowest point. I have been so humiliated by my situation and caught up in the whirlwind of all the lies that I haven’t talked to friends and family about it. So just being able to talk to this community has enabled me to have a sense of relief and gain some long-needed support. I have been telling myself the same things you are telling me for quite some time – it’s just I now need to commit to following through with action. Thanks for all your support. It is truly appreciated.
Keep going Lillian. Take action.
lilian, runner-
uh…with the computer hacking, best friend chat reading, and ensuing recrimination – i use the term deliberately; he commits a criminal act, then points the finger at lilian – i think we’ve gone past garden variety AC with this guy.
somebody correct me if i’m wrong, but he’s a super-sicko. kinda evil. lilian, honey, please get the fuck away from him. get some protection on your computer, your phone, your identity, your credit. i mean, he’s PREYing on you, and i’m sorry, but i don’t think you really see it clearly, fully, yet, you’re still blaming yourself in some way. meanwhile he’s despicable and frightening. the fact that you’re still struggling at all with the concept of leaving him, that you’re even continuing to bother to defend yourself in arguments with him, worries me.
his treatment of you is waaaay beyond. please get some local support, some therapy, something – you need help getting away from this guy.
he is toxic, bad, unforgivable. bad to the bone. you are fine. the only thing wrong with you is that you don’t really see how unconscionably awful he is.
please – take yourself out of danger.
Lilian
Find at least one good and wise friend, Lilian, and start talking about this. If you can, think about the possible benefits of talking to a counsellor. Reading your post above about him hacking into your computer conversations with your own friend and then complaining about what you were talking about – WTF? Who the hell does this arseh8le think he is? Tell him, that since you are not him (and a separate human being altogether with your own rights!) you will talk to whomever you like, about whatever you like – whenever you like! Am now getting very angry on your behalf! This guy is an abuser. Get him to eff out of your life, Lilian. Start right now.
This is all true…and scares me as well that because I grew up with my father acting this way, I have somewhat normalized this behavior or become immune to how serious this act of betrayal is. What I said to my friend and the fact that I even said anything is thrown in my face constantly as a “reason” why he cannot commit to me and why he now has such big reservations about me. I should have run right then and there. But I constantly doubt my own reactions and emotions and instead feel the need to defend them constantly. I am working with a therapist to discover why I would put up with such behavior and even more so, why I would stay to defend myself. I also just joined a women’s support group. But it’s still a long hard road. I read and read and read…and give advice…but have a hard time putting it all into action in my own life. I can say that I 100% do not want this person in my life and honestly have no respect left in my entire being for him. And while I am working on completely cutting things off, I am not fully there. I feel in my heart I will be very soon. As I keep saying, thanks for all the support.
lilian-
if you’re beating yourself up, don’t.
these are old, very ingrained habits, its your training, learned at your father’s knee.
when you are ready, you will stop. in the meantime, please be safe, and take as little crap as you possibly can. make yourself stand up for yourself how/whenever you can.
and, very soon, you will be done. and you will just stop.
its ok. we all, who were raised this way, do this. we stop when we are ready.
To continue the psychological aspect of self-awareness, google the Johari window. Quite revealing, I think!
Sarah T
Thanks for posting that. Yes it is quite revealing. I was at an interview for a job last month. One question asked was ‘tell us three words that you think describe who you are’. I really struggled with my answer (trying too hard to be honest!). When I thought later about the three words I offered, I felt that at least two of them were very suspect indeed and wondered why I’d picked them!
I think I have trouble describing who I think I am because I could answer very differently depending on the context or my mood or what I’m trying to achieve at any given time. I recall once chatting with my friends, I happened to say that I was not very assertive – they all choked into their drinks and laughed! I was bewildered that they had a totally different view of who I was…. I don’t feel like an assertive person at all, after all at that time I was letting the ex EUM walk all over me! (but I know I can be quite assertive depending on the who and what, and how angry I am!).
Hi all. Yes, still reading, but not obsessing any longer. Keeping very busy with projects and goals this week and doing much better.
Succeeding with my projects, too!
Feeling good.
Keeping my calendar full and spending time with quality friends.
Have a great weekend, all.
xxoo
Runner, et all
Ah, I see!
“I am not what I think I am and I am not what you think I am; I am what I think you think I am”
Genius. That’s it. (It’s like a sketch from Abbott and Costello!)
So who the f**k am I then!!?
I’m not sure yet. But I don’t need the ex arse to tell me. That I do know!
Yup, it is genius and it is like a sketch from Abbott and Costello. But more genius is the fact that we don’t need the ex arse to tell us who we are. Sorry to go sideways Natalie. Your post and the comments by Fearless just summed up many, many social psychological articles.
So, do you know this one: Who’s on first?
Sit back; feel the pain; focus on you and trust the process
Such a great concept @ Fearless!! Thanks for that. There will definitely be PAIN and it’s normal and okay to allow yourself to feel it for a while atlease but you get through it and you have to allow yourself to go through that Pain to get through it and get to a better place. I am 5 weeks NC this week and I have felt that pain some days more and some days less but I know I am much better off today than what I was when I first started out and the EUM went poof…. With no warning; no formal goodbye and no reply to my take care email giving him the easy OUT. Good luck to everyone especially those that are moving forward successfully with no looking BACK…. And remember that Time heals all Wounds….Allow that TIME
You know it’s also funny how time flies. Just yesterday I came across a post that I had written in 2010 on baggage reclaim about a previous ex before now who I was trying to remove from my life. Reading that post I read that it he called me after 5 months after that breakup. His number was blocked for the first 3 months. I never even answered or responded when he called and left a message. So I say this to say don’t worry about the TIME and how many days you haven’t heard from him cause it only slows down your healing and progress of moving on. Instead just let it fly and it will as long as you keep busy with living LIFE. Days will soon turn into months and months into years…..
I had another weird experience this week which is vaguely related to the topic of this post. For years, I’ve been struggling with a very toxic deputy team leader. Some years ago, I even accepted another position within the company, even if this other job was not suited for me at all. Just to get away from her! After a few years on that other completely unsuitable, frustrating job, I gave up and ended up on her team again *sigh*.
Of course she hasn’t changed. In an almost brutal way she is thwarting my ideas and my initiative. Or she steals my ideas and presents them as her own, bragging how great she is and treating me like an underperformer. She treats everyone on the team like an underperformer, even if it’s coming more and more clear how poor her OWN performance is (unfortunately, I realized that almost immediately after she joined our team – which didn’t make things easier).
It drove me crazy. I tried to “empathize” with her. I wondered why she didn’t act the way I would have acted. I tried to consider myself an underperformer, because she did, and “create” harmony that way. But I couldn’t. I tried to focus on things outside work, like some former friends told me to do. I couldn’t. How could I enjoy my hobbies while she tried to pour all my talent down the drain??? And secretly I believe I have such considerable talent!
I tried to be super-friendly with her, super-supportive, super-cooperative. But she only exploited that.
I’ve finally given up on seeking harmony. I’ve started fighting for my ideas and my projects. Whenever I’m suggesting something, I send it to a wider mailing list including our boss before even talking to her. So far, she hasn’t managed to thwart those initiatives. And others praised me for those accomplishments (she didn’t, of course).
I’m sometimes seeking support from other team members, too. Apparently, they are a bit annoyed with her too, and they consider my contributions so valuable that they don’t want them to be thwarted. Sometimes we are rolling our eyes together when she’s at her worst.
The weird thing is that I’m not happy right now, but depressed. It’s like I’ve given up on my childhood dreams. She somewhat reminds me of my narcissistic mother, and I tried to control her in a “childlike” way, with friendliness, jedi-mind-tricks and the like. Now it seems to me as if I can maybe control her – but only in an adult way, by seeking support from my other superiors (by putting them cc in my emails) and my coworkers. That wouldn’t have worked with momster. Nothing would have worked with momster. Makes me cry.
ellyb-
oh, honey. i’m sorry.
that wicked witch is triggering you, and even while you’re reacting very well, you’re grieving. you should be proud that you’re fighting fire with fire. i find that our actions sometimes are ahead of our emotions, we start behaving in more adult ways that are helpful to us while our little abused children are still cringing inside of us.
your little self will catch up. you’ve already tried everything else, and you’ve finally arrived at a good place of action. now, just feel how you feel, be very gentle with you, but keep doing what you are doing. don’t take any crap from her. eventually you’ll cry it out and find a more comfortable emotional place to put momster. you will defang the tiger. you’re right – nothing would have worked with her, but that’s her. i’m sorry it hurts.
but its ok. honestly, it’ll be ok. just cry it out.
huge huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugs
I agree with cc. You’re reacting well; reacting from an adult place, drawing support from appropriate places, validating your own worth in the organization and managing the impact of a bad boss.
I also agree that it sounds like you’re grieving. I’m no expert, but it can be very lonely when you start to grow up inside, because the little person still wants your Mom’s love. It’s very painful stop waiting for a loving mother to be there with you as you grow. It’s like deciding to stop sitting at the window waiting for mom to come home and finally be attentive to how great you are. And growing is sometimes hard and painful, and it’s lonely to go off alone and grow and do things to be proud of, finally accepting that the first person you looked to for mothering isn’t going to be watching. It’s also very very brave.
In time you will see that there is a side of you, EllyB, that is a reliable mother figure to the side of you that is still scared and needs support. It is damn scary to have to be that mother figure, because the mother figure inside you is going to be one that momster would never have approved of, and wouldn’t understand.
One day at a time.
right on mags. exactly. “its like deciding stop sitting at the window waiting for mom to come home and finally be attentive to how great you are” – nailed it.
ellyb – here’s how i think of the being your own mom thing. nobody knows you like you know you. nobody knows exactly how you feel, what you need, what you want, what you fear. but you do. you know exactly.
i used to think it would sink me into the depths of the bleakest, darkest loneliness to give myself what others did not, like it was the final proof that i was alone – but i was wrong. its the opposite!! its the final proof that i am NOT alone – i have me!
no one is equipped to love you the way you can. so give yourself precisely what you wished your momster had been able to give you – all the understanding, all the boundless compassion, all the patience, all the recognition, all the sweet coaxing to smile and the gentle rocking and comfort when you can only cry. all the generosity. truly, try it. love yourself, fully.
we each can completely comfort ourselves. yes, we still absolutely need each other, BR is a testament to that. but really, it sounds weird but appropriate self love is the best love there is, and it teaches us what to ask of others. you didn’t get from her what you should have – so start giving it to yourself, now.
@Awakened Thanks for that! I hope that I will read my posts two years from now with a big sigh of relief and be able to tell other women and even myself that the process does indeed work and you WILL get through this. Just that thought alone gives me hope and encouragement. Here’s to moving on and moving forward!
Lilian,
the NC process *does* work; don’t merely hope in it (there lies defeat); trust in it. Get behind yourself; for now that means giving yourself up to *trusting* in the process. When you can’t support yourself, the NC process will do that for you (like learning to ride a bike, at some point you’ll be doing it all by yourself and you won’t even notice; until then every contact you have with this guy will have you falling off the bike with yet another skint knee – or worse!).
(sorry, am digressing off the topic here)
@ Magnolia,
I have reported him for listening to my cell calls, but the cops told me that there is not much they can do. I wonder why anyone would want to do this and enlist others to help? We haven’t even spoken in a year. I just wanted to vent how unfair it is for one person to get away with doing this to another. Why can’t he just move on?
Fed up too,
Have you changed your number?
Fearless..
It is odd isn’t it? I have the same reaction when I disclose that I see myself as anxious…my friends have a very different view!
That’s why I rarely say ‘if it was me…’ Or ‘what I would do…’ because I am aware that I change in different circumstances!