When you really take the time to get to know you, you will find that as a result of paying attention to your feelings, opinions, needs, expectations and desires, you are not only armed with a great deal of self-knowledge and self-awareness but you have so much more power in your life because you know your own bullsh*t (BS).
As humans, we’re all prone to BS’ng ourselves to lesser and greater degrees but the great thing is that when we know our own and we own it instead of believing it, we are coming from an entirely different level of awareness to somebody who doesn’t acknowledge their self-deception for what it is.
What we have to be careful of when we find ourselves engaging with somebody who lacks self-awareness and connectivity to reality and even consideration of others, is that if we don’t recognise that they just don’t see things the way that we do, we’ll do the equivalent of bashing our head on the table in frustration because we’re trying to make sense out of nonsense. We forget that, for instance, if we have a conscience, empathy, integrity, a need for respect, that a person who doesn’t have those things or certainly doesn’t care about those things, isn’t coming from our perspective and is not going to be inclined to come over to our point of view.
I’ve dealt with my fair share of people who believe their own lies – I just don’t even engage anymore. If you take the bait or don’t step back when you realise that they’re smoking way too much crack and living at Deception Projects, you won’t take protective measures and will end up drained out. It’s a misuse of your energy. It’s like when you have one of those ridiculous arguments with a drunk person when you’re sober (or certainly not as inebriated) – complete waste of time! And they keep repeating themselves or they latch on to one word or part of a sentence that you said and go completely off topic and forget what they’ve said and done.
As I said to a friend who has battled serious health issues and her ex is still trying to run rings around her with mind effery and being a general pest because he has access to her via their children, each time she tries to reason with him and appeal to things that he does not have – the empathy, conscience etc., – she’s putting her bucket down an empty well and wondering why it’s coming up empty.
A person cannot give what they don’t have. If they care more about something else, such as ‘winning’ and control, these will always take precedence over things that rank higher for us.
We cannot expect a person who lies to themselves and who lies to others too, to be honest with us.
Why would they? How would they even know that they were being honest when they have not cultivated that within? Their version of truth is so patently different. Some people believe that something is true as long as they believe it. Some people conceal their own feelings and behaviour from themselves and then project it on to others. Some people say the same thing for so long that they believe their own lie and some people play a role for so long that it becomes second nature. Hell, I’ve done it myself. For a long time, I said the same horrible things about me and kept repeating the same stories where I made me the centre of other people’s behaviour. There can be a lot of appeal in deception because it allows a person to remain in their uncomfortable comfort zone, to not open up their mind and face things, and to quite simply avoid being responsible and accountable for their feelings and actions.
We feel bad when people are deceiving themselves because we eventually acknowledge where that’s spilling over into deceiving ourselves and also because we want them to amend their attitude and behaviour so that we can feel better about continue to engage. We’d rather that they came over to ‘our side’ rather than us having to get uncomfortable and take action and yes, acknowledge where we have slipped into BS’ng ourselves.
It’s one of the annoying yet useful aspects of life, that the things that frustrate and hurt us in others tend to reveal where we need to stop doing that same thing with us. With the person who is engaging in self-deception, we want to convince and convert them and basically teach them about how we think things ‘should’ be because we think that if we do that, this will remove our own self-deception. But it won’t. That’s something that we can do it’s just that we resist because to do so might mean stepping back from somebody and something that we think holds the key to our happiness or certainly to a level of peace and validation. But we must not deceive ourselves. We have that key.
Your thoughts?
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I love reading your posts. They are so helpful. When I told someone about how my fiancé deceived me with his lies. The person responded -that my ex was lying to himself. WOW. So, as you say in the post if he cant be honest with himself how the hell could he have ever been honest with me?
There was one thing I over looked with him. The day he lied to his Mom about something stupid. I just couldn’t understand why he told such a lie. It made no sense to me. I made an excuse for him. He just didn’t want to hurt her feelings. But in my wildest dreams I could have never guessed he would tell me the biggest lie ever. He was cheating behind my back. He is a liar and a cheat. I have always watched how people treat other people. I know that is how I will ultimately be treated. When he lied to his Mom he was telling himself a lie. when he cheated on me he was lying to himself about the commitment he made.
That lie he told her was unsettling, but I could have never guessed what was coming my way. I just didn’t think he would do that to me. But he did. I have learned so much from the HURT. If you cant be honest with yourself. Then you sure as hell cant speak the truth to me.
A former friend justified her cheating by saying ‘they had unfinished business from a past life’.
I am ashamed to say I let it slide the first time.
Happy to say I certainly didn’t the second time she tried to bullshit her justification of another affair – especially as she made it her partners fault.
She popped up recently and ‘extended the olive branch’, but once I dealt with her phoney ‘problem’ she turned spiteful and not so nice.
It is sheer joy, just knowing how much this site has helped me.
I have learned to stay around those who care, tell the truth and don’t treat me like an inferior. If they do not, they gotta go and now I don’t bother to tell them why. I stay where the warmth is. Simple as that.
Love this post. It was like a personal pep talk for me, so thank you Natalie so much. Here is a humorous gift a friend sent me too……
https://www.facebook.com/931WZAK/videos/10153245233536605/
That is a wonderful post. I have realized the ‘lies’ i have been tolerating from a very long time. I was cheated and lied by a married man. I accepted all his lies until one day i realized i am also a lie he is telling to someone else somewhere. Yes, he was expert at lying to himself. He pretended to be in one place while he was in some other, pretended to be with someone while he was with another. Hell he pretended to be 10 yrs younger, marriage and managed to lie about his FAMILY living FAR AWAY. How convenient!
Hi Shano. I enjoyed watching the link you shared. It’s so true.
Hi Selkie,
Welcome Back. Smile.
MJ
I recently had a big argument with my sister about her 20 year old grandson who lives with her, does not work, doesn’t try to find a job and is belligerent to anyone but especially her when she tries to set rules in her own home. He can’t live with his mother and stepfather because they won’t allow his laziness and disrespectful attitude. His father won’t allow it either. I tried to tell my sister he is using her for a place to stay and gas money cor his car and food, etc. but she turned on me and said ‘I’ am dysfunctional. I told her she was right but I wasn’t supporting someone who was more able to work than I am.
She didn’t believe her grandson was using her until he blurted out that he would ‘still be living with his Dad if he hadn’t recently remarried.’ As soon as her grandson zaid that to her, it was like she was ‘hearing’ for the first time he was only living with her because he couldn’t do as he pleases any place or with anyone but her. But even after that revelation, she projected anger and hostility toward me.
She is also a miserable person in general. She is angry all the time about nothing and any little difficulty life presents is catastrophic to her and she always reacts with anger. She is completely self absorbed and always has a ‘woe is me’ attitude. She doesn’t smile or laugh often and she is always speaking ill of others. I told her I was not going to visit her anymore because she made me feel anxious and upset and unhappy. She turned everything on me and said I wanted to “throw my family away.” I tried to tell her that wasn’t true but she continued blaming me. After reading your post I realize this is just the lie she told herself so she doesn’t have to deal with her own misery and with being mistreated by her grandson. She would rather blame me than admit any of her own issues.
Thank you for this post. This situation may be different than the usual relationship problems encountered here but it still applies. I realize now I am not to blame for thd lack of a close relationship with my sister. As long as she believes her own lies, she can’t be honest and caring with me.
“There can be a lot of appeal in deception because it allows a person to remain in their uncomfortable comfort zone, to not open up their mind and face things, and to quite simply avoid being responsible and accountable for their feelings and actions.“ SOOOO true!
I have gone on a “B.S. diet” recently so it is becoming increasingly clear to me when other people are still awash in theirs. In fact, just a couple days ago I discovered that one of the most painful aspects of letting go of my marriage is having to let go of my illusions about my ex husband and see him for what he is and always has been despite having convinced me that he sincerely loves me: I have to face the reality that I had let myself be totally conned and taken to the cleaners by a user and taker of the highest order. Ouch….
As part of this “diet”, I had to face up to my own culpability of having continuously overridden my own intuition red-flagging obvious indicators since Day One that he was very out of touch with reality and his (head-spinningly crazy) story changes with the time of day; and then helicopter-parenting him throughout our marriage, constantly making excuses for his egregious behaviour and shielding him from the consequences of apparently having lived his whole life encapsulated in a very thick, dense cocoon of fantasy and denial.
At any rate, I dug in and held the line and he moved out as agreed yesterday after re-occupying me for the entire month of June. I am in the process of completing the divorce paperwork to file next week.
Hooray Brenda K!!!!!!!!!!! Marvellous! now your real life can start.
YESSS!!! It’s about time!
Self deception. I think I must be guilty, but not on purpose or with the intent to cause harm to others. Is having cognitive dissonance and not having accepted a situation like or connected to self-deception? If acceptance is the final stage of grieving the loss of a relationship, is NOT getting there because of self-deception?
I sense frustration sometimes in responses I have received on here, and that’s ok. I deserve that and it makes sense. I am frustrated too because I feel this horrible anguish eating away at me. Reading these posts and comments has educated me tremendously, but I’m still in stuckness.
I know that believing something doesn’t necessarily make it the truth. But not knowing or trusting what to believe (sometimes radically different than what is deeply ingrained) feels like a monumental challenge. It IS uncomfortable, frustrating, confusing, painful, unnatural/ forced, and often feels impossible.
I hope I am not seen as being self-deceptive, and in turn deceiving others, but I think I have felt this as in: I have this ‘thing’ that I can’t ‘get over’ and it has negatively impacted/ ruined one of my friendships because of my inability to think and believe differently. Because I have not been able to alter my perceptions and bury the remnants of this failed relationship, and regain my sense of self, I have lost a friend and have jeopardized another friendship. That’s a huge price to pay for wrongly believing some guy.
I have focused so much on HIS deception, to the point where I’ve accepted it as something I deserved.
Hi Say Something,
The pain that you are experiencing is an individual thing. I know. No one can judge when this will end for you. There is no time table for when the pain will go away. You have to be kind to yourself.
You also have to be honest with yourself about who this man really was. You have painted a picture with each word that you have posted of someone who is just despicable. In spite of the name you have given him. This is why some of the people posting appear to be upset with you giving him a name that he is not worthy of. His actions don’t match his nick name. A great guy is one that would have gone to the doctor with you when you were waiting on the results of your test. He would have been by your side holding your hand. This boy didn’t give a damn about your results. A great guy is one who can provide you with a level of security because you can trust what he says. This boy faked a future to get what he wanted short term. A great guy celebrates your birthday. Your birthday is significant to him because you mean something to him. You said he never gave your birthday a second thought. Use this as a learning lesson of what you will NEVER tolerate.
I would be so upset if someone had sex with me knowing they were going to dump me the next day. Then he told you that he was dating someone else. This person is not worthy of being called anything but scum as someone previously posted. If I give him credit for anything it is the fact that he told you he was seeing someone else. He also made it pretty clear that he was not the man you thought he was. He told you he didn’t like sitting and watching TV and drinking beer. The bigger picture is -he told you he was not being real with you. Translation from his words -he was a FAKE. Some men just disappear without a word. The stories on BR of how men just go silent are painful. I was engaged and planning to get married. I got NO explanation for the cheating. He was busted and knew the damage was done.
I think some of the posts here to you have been written to get you to accept that he just wasn’t that special and he certainly shouldn’t be considered as XXX. The emotional damage he caused you has proved to be devastating. You can’t sleep. It has left you in a holding pattern (PAIN). Your life has been turned upside down and you have continued to say he was the XXX. No he isn’t. His actions have stolen your quality of life. Once you set aside your emotions and pull the covers back and examine his dirty deeds you will see him for who he is. You have to learn from this painful experience. If you continue to think of this boy in a positive light my fear is that you will welcome someone just like him back into your life. No he is not the kind of love you want. I have read the posts on BR and learned so much. What have you learned from this painful experience?
You need someone who is with you in the good and bad times. There are stories shared on BR of women having surgery and the men they are with have vanished with no sign of return. WTH. Shocking. Who would think someone like that worthy of being around?
Keep in mind that in six months- things are still early in a relationship-especially one that is a weekend romance-due to distance. You cant truly know someone in six months. He just showed you who he really was at the END of the relationship. Initially, in a new relationship the rep shows up but as time passes the real person appears. Based on what you have shared here he was just plain selfish. It is up to you when you decide to accept what happened. Your happiness may depend on it. I actually feel hurt when you say you cant open your cards for Christmas or your birthday. His lies have cut off so much of your life. I believe that some of your pain is from wanting that fake relationship with him. It just wasn’t real. You want what you thought could have been real. Now, you have to do the hard work (even with all the creeps on line) and look for a new relationship. You can do it! I have to do it. Take a break. Regroup. With your current mindset you are subject to meeting a complete ass. You have to heal and get tough before you embark on this journey of looking for a new love.
Don’t worry about upsetting anyone else. No one can judge you. Everyone is just trying to give helpful advice. I know you will not move forward until you are ready to accept this and let go.
You are the only one who really knows the full impact this has had on your life. What is next for you?
MJ
Mary Jane,
Thank you so much for this insightful post. Although it is written for Say Something, I feel it speaks to me as well because there are some similarities between Say Something’s and my story. You said, “It is up to you when you decide to accept what happened. Your happiness may depend on it.” It is very true. I find myself recycling a lot this week. I became alarmed that I will never stop the recycling even though the frequency and intensity have diminished over 1,5 year. However, I am calm knowing it will go away. I just let the feelings pass and know I will be fine. I know it’s just a process. I don’t dwell on it. It is very important to work toward acceptance and accept the end of the relationship and your responsibility.
This post is bringing more clarification for me. Like many people say, “Is Nat reading my mind?” This and the previous one are like the final touches on cementing the door of acceptance for me. It is so true and simple, yet took over a year to understand: if we both lied to ourselves and each other, how could we build anything healthy? I lied to myself about what I really wanted. I pretended I was fine with taking it slow and going with a flow. I pretended it was fine to have a weekend only relationship due to his working late and me being a single mom. I lied to myself by not listening to my gut, to my being hurt by his sarcasm, remarks, lack of actions. I lied to myself accepting his disrespectful and immature behavior. How could I ever think about building a foundation of honest, trustworthy relationship, if I constantly lied to myself and felt discomfort many times with him? It is impossible to build a relationship lacking the sincerity and honesty and without feeling comfortable even after few months in a relationship. I won’t go into dissecting what he lied to himself about, but I imagine it was basically about the same thing I was lying to myself about. We were both emotionally detached from each other, no matter how close and connected we seemed on the sexual and spending time/external things levels. We might have been incompatible, emotionally unavailable, or both, I will never truly know and quit thinking about something I will never know. I do know that lying to oneself leads to a broken relationship. As soon as you catch yourself lying about how you feel, what you say, it’s a red flag to either work on the relationship or leave it. The person might not be right for you, or you are not at the right time for a relationship, but you have to step back and work on yourself and be honest with yourself to avoid hurting yourself and the other person. Step back before it’s too deep in and ask yourself, “Do I want to be in? Do I want to try working on this? Do I want to be honest with her/him to work on this and make the relationship work?” But these self-examining questions are possible only if one is self-aware. Only when we are honest with ourselves, we can learn about ourselves, and therefore there would be no need to maintain and “grow” a relationship based on lies. There would be no stringing along, last chance saloon, passing time candidate, “let’s go with the flow,” “I don’t know if I want to commit to a relationship yet,” etc etc. Once we are able to ask ourselves and others the pertinent, honest, straight-forward questions, we will have changed and pressed the escape button as soon as we feel we cheat ourselves and lie to others. Such a profound post. Honesty and integrity start with yourself to yourself, and from that stems how we relate to others and with whom we associate and choose build relationships. Thank you for yet another thoughts provoking post. What a week! Full of recycling, pain, good growing pain, and continuing honesty and openness to myself about everything that happened to me during that relationship and the others, and how I contributed my share to the brokenness and disfunctioning of those relationships.
Sofia, I am in awe. What a transformation! You’ve indeed built lots of integrity that shows in your post and I aspire to be like you.
Funny, for me it is a question of boundaries. And self-esteem. I thought that at first I have to work on saying “no, this is not what I feel right now. I know you think calling me after midnight to set up to see me at 1 am is okay because you justify you’re a busy man. But this is not okay with me”. And he is/was busy. But busy or not busy (whatever the frigging reason he justified it with) – it was NOT okay with me. But what really worked for me is to start working on boundaries – what is mine and what is not. Who is responsible for what in a relationship. And somehow working on understanding what it means to have boundaries (in my age, ugh! but better late than never) forced me to define what is it that i truly NEED. Once I got real with my needs and my boundaries – I was no longer chickensh!t scared to hear “okay, then I’ll see you some other time when you have more time”. The problem with his bs was that I KNEW for a fact that once I say “I am sorry, I don’t feel love when you call me at midnight and expect to see me in an hour and this is not what I want from a relationship now” (and this is exactly what I felt), he’ll bail out. And having low self-esteem I’d have to swallow my not liking it, get busy collecting the 1 a.m. crumbs and that would make my self-esteem even lower.
Now I say “Sorry. This does not sound good to me” and yes, I still worry that it might have been the last man in my life and I worry and guilt trip myself BUT I do not act on those feelings now. I hope they will go away soon too. But now I know that “my” man would not want me to be okay with collecting his stupid 1 a.m. crumbs of attention or settle for “let’s go with the flow” bs.
I love BR, it has totally changed my life for the better. In just 2 years I’ve gotten to a very different place because of NML and all the ladies here. It does not mean I don’t fuck up. Oh yes, I do. But I fail less fundamentally and I always acknowledge when I drink poison and I started spitting it out almost immediately. Not trying to convince myself it was Vanilla Coke.
Why, thank you! And yes, exactly, I mess up too, but nowadays, it is SO EASY and fast for me to detect the lies, deception, and to listen to my gut! It comes as a second nature now. If I feel something is off, I trust myself. Also, I noticed that my need (seemingly I was born with it!) for validation from others is being controlled and subdued. Moreover, it is diminishing. It is such a freeing feeling knowing that my worth is not measured anymore by someone’s attention, approval, texting me, remembering me, and giving me their time. Naturally, we are humans and affected by others, but the way I communicate and relate to others, and how I used to a year-two ago, or even few months ago, is a night and day! It is such a happy and freedom feeling. Such relief and content! We just keep on learning and growing, thanks to BR and our own hard work!!!
Sofia,
Your posts are ALWAYS helpful to me. Thank you for sharing what you have learned. I think it is ok if you recycle your hurts. You always seem to keep things in perspective and you keep moving forward. One part of your relationship with him was really hurtful and you may always remember that. But as time moves on that part of you will heal too.
My bad dreams hurt and make my day dark, but then I move on the next day. I refuse to allow a liar to take me down. When I read your posts about recycling I know that I am going to be fine. We all have these little setbacks but we move forward.
I believe that we would both heal faster if we had someone new in our lives. Someone loyal and who has real substance. We are not looking for rebounds but healthy relationships. I know you said you aren’t looking for anyone. But if the right person showed up it would make a difference. We all need someone to share our lives with. I understand there are no guarantees.
Your other posts about people being so BUSY was helpful. I am lonely because most people just want to text. I would like some real connections with some human beings. This would be another way that I could heal faster. I am so frustrated right now that I don’t have REAL friends. Sofia I am just trying to be patient. I can’t have everything that I want right now. I have been traveling alone and trying to just enjoy the Summer.
I met someone at the spa who goes to the same gym. We exchanged numbers. She is getting over a break up. We were going to hit the gym together. She text me a couple of times and then went silent. This must be my season for being ALONE. It is tough. I do all sorts of projects and travel. For right now BR is the best connection I have to people even though it is virtual. I have also used Youtube to learn so many new things.
Thanks Sofia-just keep doing what you are doing- you have a pretty little girl who is watching YOU. Keep your head up for her. Your daughter is watching what her Mommy does.
Keep putting your energy into your daughter’s future and doing things for YOU. Another person posted here that you are strong and that you basically offer more to yourself than a therapist can. You are insightful. Trust your gut. If you need help to handle your past get it. You have impressed me and given me inspiration to keep moving. Thank You Sofia. I have needed your words of guidance. I appreciate your courage to share. How is your job search?
@Say Something you have made major progress you indirectly gave him a new name today DECEITFULaz. Thanks for the movie idea. I was just sitting here organizing and using my new steamer (ironing all wrinkles out of my clothes). I dated someone who had a similar look to Kevin C. and he had the most beautiful blue eyes that melted me. Happy 4th ladies.
MJ
Mary Jane,
We are doing it hard way. Without that someone special and without close friends. I had thought about this right before your post: “If we had someone new and decent in our life, it would help us heal.” But then I thought, it would have been cheating myself. I feel like I need to repair my broken self first and thoroughly without looking for someone to save and fix me. I made the mistake before many times. I am talking about my experience though. You might be ready for that special one. I don’t think I am, but I am getting close. However, like I said before, I have accepted that I might stay single. It doesn’t mean I don’t want to have someone. I do. But I have to learn how to live alone because that might happen, so I might as well learn how to live happily with myself.
About no friends and no real friends, I can relate very well. The connection is maintained by texting and e-mailing. It is rare to spend time face-to-face with someone. Such as the culture and high pace, busy busy life style. I have accepted that too. I have some church related community, someone to talk to and visit. I have people I know, so I am not completely isolated, but I can relate to what you are saying. It DOES feel lonely sometimes. Especially when everyone (or seemingly so) has a family/partner. I am blessed to have a daughter and she keeps me going. It’s such a gift to give and experience an unconditional love. Someone here mentioned about (Oona, I think) that she wishes the kids were taught the BR lessons early on. Oh yes, I am learning myself and teaching my daughter! Age appropriate of course, about the boundaries, self-respect, and self-love. She actually has more self-esteem than me, evidently. I learn from her sometimes and she sees things so clearly! About my career: I have finally experienced some shift in my somewhat stagnant/analysis-paralysis decision making process. This will be a career change for me and a drastic one and I can lose or gain. In fact, I could gain couple decades of a successful, fulfilling career. I will have to take a jump and do it. And my motto is that it’s better to try and make a mistake then never try and wonder about would have, could have. Wish me good luck and thank you for all your support. Your posts never stop amusing and motivating me. You have such a kind heart and your optimism is contagious! I love it!
MJ and Sofia,
Both of you. Just WOW. Thoughtful, inspirational, and real.
If right now I write… I get it. He was scum. He deceived me and is NOT the BGE. I stopped recycling and ruminating; I don’t miss him; I no longer wonder why and how he said and did things. I don’t care what he’s doing. I’m completely focused on myself and my future. I AM OVER HIM!!!!
Ok sounds good, yes? BUT THAT would be deceiving myself too because I haven’t bought in. Not yet.
@MJ regarding the street sign you saw… Did either of you ever see the Kevin Costner movie ‘No Way Out’? Great deception, thriller, terrorism movie. Ironically it is one of my favorites. Think of me, our relationships that brought us here, BR, and this post if you decide to watch it.
Today (in the US) is Independence Day. Last year on this day I walked four miles in flip flops, still painfully attached to illusions of a man and a failed relationship that I desperately wanted to resurrect. This year, I am working toward with acceptance and the understanding that I am on my own.
I DO believe that a mutual relationship means both sides 100% committed. Since BGE is gone, so is that hope for a mutual relationship. I am trying so hard to figure out WHY I have not let go of this pain and suffering; Why I am continuing to deceive myself about who he really is and how it has horribly impacted me. MJ, you summarized much of what I’ve shared accurately. I AM still deceiving myself by remembering all the good and wonderful things and times. I am letting these memories stand in the way of accepting the cold, dismissive, uncaring, disconnected stranger that tossed me aside like trash in the end. I am still suffering this discard, but I must also be deceiving myself by not admitting YES. This IS who he really is. He REALLY, horrifically deceived and betrayed me.
I won’t even comment on his role of deception to himself, because it obviously works in his favor.
Sofia, you commented on settling for less than. I was doing that too, as far as time spent together, but thought (in part by future fake deception) that would be changing and growing as the relationship naturally progressed.
Thank you both so much for sharing and encouraging me to keep going.
Say Something, I recently read something about borderline personality disorder and when I was reading the characteristics and the way it’s played out in a relationship, I thought of you and your situation with that creep. Are you familiar BPD? I’m starting to think my mom had that as well as being a narcissist.
I’ve attached the link that got me started on this path – My love/need to be needed because of my attachment to a borderline/narcissist? I’ve been slowly making my way through it and it has been very helpful for spotting my own BS as well as the BS of the people I have dealt with/am dealing with. I wonder if it will also help you.
http://gettinbetter.com/needlove.html
Hi Veracity,
Thank you. As a result of why I’m on this site, I have actually read hundreds of articles and a few books on pathology: NPD, BPD, sociopaths, oh my. Obviously I cannot diagnose. I did however recognize several cluster B traits that may have been in play. I struggle with not knowing. Basically what I learned is that involvement with someone who has these traits, even if not an actual personality disorder, will result in harm. I know I experienced manipulation, primarily through covert passive aggressiveness. Never once voicing a single word of unhappiness, and instead speaking only kind and positive thoughts followed by abruptly declaring the relationship is over wasn’t healthy behavior. It was deceptive and hurtful. Beyond that, I will never know. I have to be “ok” with that limited knowledge.
Say Something,
I remember you said before and recently that you have read so many books and literature on trying to figure him out and understand what happened. I did too. Someone here posted some great links. I read some information and kept saying, “Wow, that’s him.” My jaw literally dropped! (about type B and character disturbance). But then I thought of you and myself as well, and decided to stop reading about. It is IMPOSSIBLE to figure them out. Those “answers” just don’t help. Temporarily yes. But then pain and unknown and WHY come back. You see?
You know how there are stories about seemingly to everyone normal people and then you find out they are killers or rapers. Or how some non-sense, autrocious things happen, committed by “normal” people. And here we are, experiencing pain from someone who chose to walk away. Like the ex told me in the beginning about him leaving his ex(I didn’t listen of course). “It is life. Sorry. Shit happens.” Yep. And that’s it. Not even why he can’t/is afraid to commit, scared to love, why he lied, why manipulated, why pretended. He could be a serial killer, he could be a perfect family man right now. Or still a commitment phobe with someone else. What does it change for us NOW, AT THE PRESENT? Nothing.
We have got our lives to live. Without them. Luckily. It’s a blessing these people are out sooner than later, Could have been decades later. Wasted time and life.
All the hugs and virtual support to you, Say Something. One thing I would recommend for now (this thought struck me last week as I was particularly going through the grieving and recycling) is that even though psychology was and is helping me to learn about myself, it DID NOT help me understand a single thing about him. None. There are so many labels, diagnoses, definitions that we can attach to them, but we will never know if that’s true. One can’t figure out another man/human. We can’t get into somebody’s head or soul, dissect, guess, theorize, deduct, reason, unreason, conclude anything. We will never know. What we can do is figure out what to do with ourselves now. With the help of psychology, spirituality, and whatever resources that help one individually. That’s where I stop myself reading those links provided by Freedme and Veracity (wonderful links full of educational and enlightening stuff! but I had to stop reading because I was going in circles about the past yet again). Focusing on me, my life now, my goals, my feelings, that’s the priority and concentration. I hope, Say Something, this helps. Just don’t read the analysis stuff anymore ( I love analyzing, believe me, I think I could have earned a counseling degree by now). But we got to stop at some point analyzing them and start living. Study yourself instead. Earn your Ph.D. in you and build your life! Separately from him and anyone else.
What you say is so true Sofia, there is nothing more to learn when someone dumps you.
The only reason you need is that they don’t want to be with you any more. They have their own reasons for wanting out of the relationship and instead of trying to analyse them and yourself to death just accept it and move on. This is life and it happens all the time to everyone on the planet.
As long as you have good solid boundaries in place, have good self esteem and recognise when you are being BS’d by someone you can let go of these creeps, male and female quite easily.
It also helps enormously to get a life of your own independant of anyone else. Do something that feeds your own soul and makes you happy, no other person is able to do that for you.
Sofia,
You are right! This is the key: But we got to stop at some point analyzing them and start living. Study yourself instead.
I learned so much today on BR. Got a crash course today full of insight. Loving it.
MJ
Sofia/ Psuline,
Yes, you are right.
“You know how there are stories about seemingly to everyone normal people and then you find out they are killers or rapers. Or how some non-sense, autrocious things happen, committed by “normal” people. And here we are, experiencing pain from someone who chose to walk away.”
Yes, I think of Scott Peterson. And the craigslist killer. And Jodi Arias. Extreme cases, but I think of
them. And I think no WAY was he like that. Because there was no violence or crime. But I think of these examples. If you all knew my “real” life, it would probably seem like I am the same person writing about my feelings. People don’t know. They make think I’m tired, really busy, have allergies, but they don’t know. Silent suffering.
“The only reason you need is that they don’t want to be with you any more.”
Pauline that is so true. Now just to get away from this pain…
*Not- like I am NOT the same person- ok, I really AM tired!
Good advice. You are right.
Hello say something. I have not posted on here before but have been reading BR for over a year now. I have identified with you the most as you sound like me. BR has shown me the way so many times but still I do not take the advice even though I hear it and recognise it as truth. I too am stuck. I have had only 1 relationship before which lasted 17 years THEN I met my BGE. I didn’t know that people existed like this before, he is definitely EUM and has narc tendencies but he is nice and kind and generous to me still and we have developed a kind of friendship (FWB) I suppos, which I’m sometimes ok with and sometimes I say to myself I should stop. He cares for me a bit but also believe if I did stop he wouldn’t be too bothered. This is probably the part where I am self deceptive. I have come know this man inside and out though, he is not capable of honesty or even love I don’t think and my expectations have been managed down to such an extent that my own values change to accept what is on offer. I know this and yet I still want to have him in my life. I’m not sure why. Hugs to all xxx
Hi palomablanca11,
Sometimes we recognize pieces of ourselves in the stories of others. I certainly have, here on BR. While most everything makes sense, being able to move from stuck to fantastic and feeling good often feels impossible. But others do it. Pay attention to them.
When you can say “my expectations have been managed down to such an extent that my own values change to accept what is on offer” that right there is not ok. I did not swap out my values for BGE, and actually thought ours were aligned. Maybe I am guilty of suppressing some needs along with way via being managed down. I wasn’t given the option to stick around. I wanted IT ALL and maybe that scared him when he had to acknowledge that I was for real. I’m really not sure. I hope I would not have stayed for less if I had been given that choice. I never asked to stay and be an option.
You also call him nice, kind, and generous, but then say he is not honest. I cringe and think ‘manipulation’. But you have identified his characteristics WHILE still being involved with him. You KNOW he is EU. You KNOW. And even though you might not believe it, that knowing is your power. You can make educated decisions. I didn’t know.
So what are you willing to put up with? Compromise? Accept? If being with him hurts more than it feels good, you need to think differently.
Say Something,
(sorry for long post)
I have posted here at this site once before. Although no two experiences are a like I think I understand the pain and anguish caused by having the PERCEPTION that this “perfect man” discarded me without warning. Mine dumped me the day after Christmas. I had moved away from my friends and family quit job (my choice of course) and moved thousands of miles. I don’t blame him for this, I wanted to move out here.
Long story short I stupidly let myself get back with him, only this time he had managed down my expectations yet would future fake. This time he was more careless with his shady excuses. I’ve been here a year now and still haven’t found a job, have no friends and no family here. This man took me down to my bare core of being. All of it with niceness and concern and “i feel terrible for what happened” and other weird responses that sounded completely detached. (he knows exactly what he’s doing, he is a mental health professional)
I couldn’t get over the fact that I couldn’t get over the relationship. I ruminated for hours which turned to days, months. I’d get a head then fall back again. He’d chase then pull away. I went to the doctor, the pills stopped most of the ruminating so that I could start to think more clearly. But it wasn’t enough, I still kept clinging to this idea that he would some how change. I’ve read someplace that when we think about any one thing for long enough, our brain starts to hard wire it.
I am forcing myself to get compassionately tough on myself. FORCE MYSELF. No one, family or friends understand what the hell I’m doing with my time. I AM WORKING ON REBUILDING. I AM FORCING my way out.
If I may post a section for another site which is written by Dr George Simon. Baggage Reclaim and the one from Dr. George Simon have been a god send. I’ll provide the link at the bottom. I’m not insinuating anything but the below was one thing that struck me pretty hard. Maybe it will help others. I’ve had to do so many things to climb out. It’s freaking hard, yes. I stumble and fall lots. But anything I’m spending this much effort on should have a good outcome. So I’m careful what I wish for.
But in particular here is a example of what’s on his site:
“Of course, the behavior of another person is one of many areas of your life where you have no control (i.e., no power). Yet, because persons of defective character will often be good at manipulation and will have you questioning yourself, you can end up spending a lot of time and energy hoping that they will eventually change.
Human beings have one amazing power, but one power only — the power of choice. You have the power to act. You alone command your muscles. You have no power whatsoever over people, places, and things — anything external. Although many entertain the delusion, you have no power over the outcomes of your actions, either. You can do everything correctly and still not secure the desired results. Other factors influence that. Naturally, most of the time, unless adverse fate intervenes, if you behave prudently, appropriate rewards follow. But it’s important to recognize that nothing external to you is really within your power to control.
The biggest problem people have when they get caught in the trap of trying their best to make a problem relationship work — by focusing time, attention and energy on the person they can’t control — is that they inadvertently discover the behavioral “formula” for depression.” Some time ago, researchers discovered that even animals who found themselves in the position of trying everything they could to reach a goal only to find themselves unable to control events, ended up feeling “helpless.” Their “learned helplessness” also led them to display the frustration, anxiety, and eventually the emotional and behavioral “shutdown” that characterizes depression. This helplessness model has been shown to apply to human beings as well. When people invest time and energy trying to make things happen only to find that no matter what they do or try nothing seems to change, they end up feeling frustrated, anxious, despondent, angry, “helpless,” and depressed.
Here is the site and link to the article which is part of a larger write up on personal empowerment for those who get caught up manipulators etc. http://counsellingresource.com/features/2009/06/18/empowerment-tools-invest-your-energy-where-you-have-power/
I learned that when I was with a liar, I started lying to myself. I became a liar to cover him and a liar by making excuses for his behavior. Lying is poison to the heart and soul. I also learned that I was believing lies learned since childhood about “the fantasy man”.
Anyway, Say Something, Why, Mary Jane and others, thank you for letting me share and I have learned so much here. I feel like this is the only place where people understand some of this covert behavior. And baggage reclaim gives me the wisdom to change myself. (or at least I hope that is what is happening) :).
Hi Freedme,
I admire your courage to be in a new city with no friends. You are trying to rebuild your life. I am pretty much doing the same and it is tough. Just keep rebuilding your life. That had to be tough to end a relationship around the holidays.
Thanks so much for sharing this link. I just ordered his book because I loved what I was reading. He said what we all know to be true: Human beings have one amazing power, but one power only — the power of choice.
I try to remind myself about this every morning when I start my day. Each day I make the choice about how I will think, if I will work out, eat healthy etc. My choices shape my life.
The one thing right now that has me feeling helpless is my nightmares. I wish I could stop them. How does anyone control their dreams? I have surrounded myself with pretty flowers. I have super organized everything (no chaos around me). I have been getting massages sometimes twice a week. I have pretty smelling candles all over my place. I take long walks and write about happy things (gratitude) before I go to sleep and still these damn nightmares.
I continue to have thoughts of him humiliating me in front of other people. It may have to do with the wedding that never happened. I dumped him when I found out he was cheating. I guess the dreams will end one day. Just like you I am rebuilding.
MJ
Mary Jane,
I’m so, so very sorry that assface did that to you. As far as the dreams? They will go away. I had nightmares about my criminal minded Ex psychopath (who I was with ten years bfore the Assclown). Thus my personal work now, if you let them, they can really screw your life up. I never saw the AC coming, he was a complete opposite. Anyway, yeah I had dreams of my ex standing over me while I was trying to sleep, or had somehow managed to move into my new place while I was asleep. Could it be trauma?
I’m so sorry about the dreams. But they did go away for me.
Anyway this brings me to my Ah ha moment. I had a real turn around today!. I went to that link you gave Say Something (also a favorite site of mine). And found a article about Rejection that I thought was extremely helpful in answering “why am I still thinking about this!!!?” Like why feel this shi*ty over a AC after all this time. The answer for me was REJECTION of ME and having someone play games with leading me on then discard.
Here’s the link
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/thriving101/201012/rejection-losers-guide
When I read this, A light went on. All this stupid hurt and feelings of grief. I kept wondering why?? I’ve never felt like this post break up before. Not even psycho Ex hurt this bad. But aren’t a lot of us here because we feel somehow rejected? (yes we know we should have rejected them but…) This article discusses the physical and psychological pain caused by rejection based on science. Under normal circumstances rejection hurts like hell, but some of us here have been rejected more than once and cruelly. Such as doing a surprise discard on me after a romantic week up till Christmas. Then getting me while weak to take him back so he could manage my expectations down. My heart hurt so bad, just like someone died. And that is also explained in the article. That article states that the physical pain in your heart is real, and rejection feels like grief to our body and mind. The article explains why our rejection hurts so badly. But factor in for some of us, more than one rejection and we find ourselves in a whole new state of confusion and mind meltdown (in my case). I don’t want to take away from BR website, at all. I’ll continue to come here for the practical no nonsense advice and support from you guys. But that article. Wow… made me feel a lot better. I hope it may be as helpful to you and others. I did like your article too. Sometimes I have to hear something stated in a different ways. Anyway.. I hope you continue to get stronger and settle into your new life. Sounds like you are doing everything you can. I don’t know if you are in the U.S. but I found Meetup.org very helpful for meeting people and getting out of my place. (it’s not dating related).
Cheers! Big rounds of hugs 🙂
Freedme,
Thank you so much for sharing this article. It helped me understand these damn nightmares.
The article reads:
Rejection hurts so acutely because we get addicted to the relationship, only to have it taken away from us. And after, just like a drug addiction, we go through withdrawal.
Maybe like you say the dreams are the last stage of my withdrawal. Hell I was with this man for YEARS. There are so many memories and reminders of the relationship. Like when one of the many movies comes on that we watched over the years. I tossed everything he gave me in the trash. So, thank God I have none of those reminders. But I will probably never clean everything about him off my hard drive (my brain)LOL.
Thanks for reminding me about meet up groups. I am like a little misfit toy. Feeling rejected. I need some friends. This has been the toughest part of my journey or withdrawal. I need some good ole live human interaction for the love of God.
Thanks for sharing that the dreams do go away. I m sure you don’t like the way you were told to think positive. But for me I find that I have to work on the thoughts daily. My thoughts are what make or break my day.
I am so sorry about the way you were treated. The faking is the worst part of all of this crap with relationships. People just can’t be honest.
LOVE the reading material you are sharing. Send anything you find that is helpful. This is why I love BR. Thank you for sharing your story. Again, I am sorry for your pain.
Hugs Back to You.
MJ
MJ,
Yeah, I think that being in a new city and state thousands of miles from people I know has been a major struggle. Sounds like you are going through that. That’s why coming here has helped me, too bad we all can’t meet up for a beer, ha ha. Oh and as I mentioned before the website I mentioned wasn’t meetup.org, it’s meetup.com. I’m introverted and have had to force myself to get among humans. I have one last link I can provide which I think speaks specifically to those of us who are isolated and don’t realize that they are lonely. When I saw this, I cried, but in a good way. I finally got it I think, all the reading here and then the below with Tedtalk. I realized the perfect storm was brewing. I was lonely, I was rejected cruelly, went back and got rejected again (why these unavailable are so so bad for us.) didn’t get the job from the few interviews I went on, I also learned just a month or two ago I have ADHD which is good but also a huge realization on a lot of failure etc. yeah perfect storm. So I guess life or the powers to be slammed me back in my chair and said “hold up you aren’t going anywhere till you figure this all out first”.
This is short but powerful. I ruminated, was lonely and felt rejected. No wonder..
https://www.ted.com/talks/guy_winch_the_case_for_emotional_hygiene/transcript?language=en
Freedme,
THANK YOU SO MUCH! First, I LOVE TEDTALKS. This one made me cry too because it so powerfully speaks to where I am right NOW. I am lonely. I knew about the dangers of loneliness before listening to this. But after listening it has motivated me to take (more) ACTION.
I can’t risk damaging my health by staying in this state of loneliness. He is so right loneliness creates deep psychological wounds. Everyday I do battle with my own negative thoughts. I don’t want to feel any sense of helplessness. It is just no GOOD. OMG ruminating can create heart disease. I am so glad I stopped the ruminating. It was driving me nuts. All day long tapes rolled in my head about what he had done to me. I bet the physical tapes of my thoughts over all those months would fill up a state. It just went on and on. Now, I cant pin point the day or hour the tapes STOPPED. But it is OVER.
Funny you should mention meeting for a drink. I have said the same thing to Say Something and Sofia. We have shared warm thoughts here and similar experiences. Rejection. So, it is a warm thought about getting together.
I have some major work to do to resolve my loneliness. I have been consumed with some work projects and my social life is on a bit of a back burner. I do have a plan.
Keep trying to look for a new job. Rejection is not easy. But someone is going to hire you. Use every search engine you can like Indeed.com. I love how you say that the powers to be slammed you back in your chair. It is important for us all to learn something when we have such painful experiences.
I had another bad dream last night. All I can remember is being at a table asking him why he cheated on me after proposing. I woke up feeling so agitated. I got no answer from the dream. Unresolved. I will never have an answer to this question. Each day I practice ACCEPTANCE. My emotional and psychological hygiene are far more important to me.
THNAK YOU! This Tedtalk has convinced me to have that dinner party that I thought about having. I am going to invite some neighbors and some people from the spa over for dinner. It is a start. Just for background information for you. I spend my life at the spa. Massages, new hair styles, manicures, pedicures are my form of therapy sessions. Of course I get my daily dose of BR. This site has connected me virtually to people. I have needed this. A place to share the hurt and heal. I wanted to share a link with you from YouTube. I listened to a long series by Dale Carnegie -How to Stop Worrying and Start Living. It is long but it helped me so much. His voice is also soothing to listen to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv1pQLhwSkE
What else are you doing to survive in the new city? I appreciate everything you have shared it has been helpful. Keep me posted on your job search.
MJ
Crap im just now getting to your you tube, thanks for sharing. I like to look At us ladies as great wise woman. Not everyone has the courage to accept deeper needs and issues then work on them. Glad the tedtalk helped. It got me back on the meetups. Im sorry the dreams are still there. ry writing out. I used to draw mine out even if they are chicken stick figurees. I recognize that they are not normal dreams . More tramatizing with longer residual feeing or crying hard when you wake.and yeah its like a reset button and you feel pain fresh. It shouldfade. Maybe stay away from this site before bed if you arent already . The psycho will occassionally text my phone even though i dont respond and it triggers it. But i no longer feel it in my chest.
Freedme/MJ,
I will watch that Ted talk after work. I love them too and even took him with me to see one. And now I connect pain to watching them, so have avoided. (MJ- like how you shoe shopped together)
Natalie has US plans for visits starting in September. I don’t see any other details, but maybe we COULD actually have that coffee. All with no worries of rejection or being lonely.
Say Something,
I would love to attend this and finally meet my virtual BFF. YES!
I understand what you are saying related to the TedTalks. We could go together (lol). I still haven’t gone back to my all time favorite shoe shop. If you could see my shoe collection you would tell me that I don’t really need one more fricken shoe lol. But the sighting of a great shoe was music to my heart.
Between us-if a new guy shows up in my life. I hope this will be one of his great qualities. LOL. He will enjoy seeing me giggle about finding a fabulous pair of shoes. Oh and he will go with me and never complain about how many times I go up and down the aisles looking. Oh and he will have that eye to pick out the perfect shoe and bring it to me. There is an art to selecting great shoes. The ex had that covered. I cant take that from him. One day this might happen for me. Again.
I just had this image of me dragging the asshole back just for shoe shopping. NOPE. He has to stay gone. I want you to promise to beat me senseless virtually if I ever say anything remotely this silly again.
MJ
I watched that Ted talk. And ummm, yeah, I have his book ‘Emotional First Aid’. I am so guilty of ruminating. Sooooo guilty. And lonely. Depressed? I FEEL depressed but idk if that means that I am. I know BGE was in my dream last night. Previously I dreamt we were at a picnic table and my friend was carrying a bday cake for me. In the dream, he never looked to see it and didn’t speak.
Is there any additional info for NML visiting the US?
Hi Say Something,
You have read so much. How was his book? Is it worth buying? I am just seeing this post.
I don’t have any information about NML visiting the US. I searched when you mentioned it. I had a bad dream last night that kept me up for a couple of hours. Must just be process.
MJ,
Not my favorite book. Liked the Ted talk more. I attempted a project today even though I had concerns of being electrocuted. Months ago, after the new bulb didn’t work, I changed out my first wall light switch. Still didn’t work. Today I bought a new light fixture and spent hours getting the old one down, and even had my son help. It was ugly. End result was him telling me to call an electrician. No! I wanted to do it myself. Then he said ‘You can call a woman electrician, if that’s what this is about.’ I think he sensed my disappointment.
So then I sat down and re-read the final words I ever sent to BGE. In this actual sent letter, I told him he WASN’T the best guy ever like I’d thought. I told him I would leave him alone, and I have. I told him I would miss him forever and I do. That was almost 10 months ago.
I have spent most of this weekend completely alone, and I guess I do that often. I know that 3-4 years ago I thought I was ‘ok’ with alone often, but I think to do that I wasn’t being true to myself. I think part of me took a beating and gave up. I am fine with sometimes being alone. I think knowing it could be permanent reinforces loneliness, sadness, and is why I think I lost out on the BGE. I haven’t found an in-between.
Except (and I’m not trying to minimize my current dysfunction) for how I’ve taken this breakup to heart, and I know that’s a big sign of needing to change my perspective, I don’t think I have any other horrible or super undesirable or red flaggable traits. I keep thinking, what do I need to do differently? Truly, deeply, life-changingly differently? What can I force myself to do that will positively impact my emotional state? My mind is my own worst enemy. I’m totally rambling now, and I know I’ve received good ideas here. Stop trying to analyze, be present in the moment, take him off the pedestal, spend time alone, take on projects. I’m still working on cleaning out and organizing my house. I haven’t stopped doing that.
This is a fantastic post, and it is very, very true. Earlier this year I got dumped via silent treatment by a man who was future faking only a month and a half beforehand – saying he’d never felt love like this, and that he wanted the whole marriage, house and kids shabang with me. After being discarded like a piece of trash, I found out that he’d been pursuing other women the whole time.
He was the kind of guy who would HAVE to lie to himself to get away with this horrible treatment of women (I was certainly not the first). He’d blame their insecurity, their issues, age differences, distance, any miniscule incompatibility he could discover… Regardless of the woman, the lies he told/tells himself are the same: I have the right to behave like this because XXX. And he convinces himself of it and acutally BELIEVES it. I think it’s the only way he can ease his conscience.
Natalie is right – you can’t believe anyone who doesn’t own up to their own BS. In the best of cases there’s a little self-protecting denial going on, and in the worst there’s mind-bending manipulations of the truth that can have a devastating effect on people around them.
I have been working very hard on being honest with myself and others. I think the hardest thing about it so far has been the deep disappointment/despair I feel when I allow the truth about a person (or myself) to sink in. When I face the truth about myself or another person/situation, it requires me to face the deception/fantasy I’ve built up in my head that keeps me *safe* from the responsibility of responding to the truth and grieving the loss of who I wanted/needed them or me to be.
The best thing about it has been the opportunity to face reality and to actually allow myself to feel whatever I feel about a situation instead of shutting that down because it’s unacceptable. Then responding (instead of reacting) in a way that helps me, supports me, protects me. All new ways of being in the world for me. I’m responsible for my thoughts, feelings, choices, actions and so are they.
I’m also recognizing what great instincts I have! Everyday I trust them more and with my expanding boundary setting and strategic thinking skills, I am much better at taking care of myself/protecting myself.
I had a great opportunity to spend time socially with someone I trust from the office last night. I learned that what I sensed about this workplace was spot on! The management knows about and actively covers the overt and covert bullying/sexual harassment of the employees. They have had a whole department leave as a unit and successfully blackmail the company into funding their startup!
Crazy.
He told me what they do to him and how the women in his department all left because they were harassed. One woman was publicly fired during the staff meeting and humiliated. I let him know about the aggressive behavior and scapegoating I’ve received. Good guy, his response was, “I’ll watch out for you”. He sits right outside my office.
He told me that the guy has been doing that for years and his whole department is full of passive women he can dominate/control.
I’ve recovered my equilibrium, but this news is obviously very disturbing. Talk about lies and deception! I don’t know how they sleep at night. How they justify/rationalize this behavior.
I have my list of people I trust. I keep to the facts with everyone else (including my boss ) and communicate mostly by email and use the cc liberally! My boss told me we would do a complicated project together when we had someone give it to me. He said he didn’t know how to do it either and that we’d figure it out together. The deadline was approaching and we hadn’t done it. I asked him when he’d like to get together to work on it and then surprise, surprise, “he wasn’t going to be available and that if I wanted I could take a stab at it by myself”. While I was doing it, up against a tight deadline, he kept bringing other things over. Then as I got close to finishing and was rushing around. I noticed he was calmly getting him self ready for the company outing we were all getting ready to leave for. I see it as it is. He didn’t care.
I also noticed he was walking ahead of me to the gates of this outing. He was in front of the whole group. I was just a few steps behind him. He turned around, saw me walking by myself and just turned right back around and kept walking, no acknowledgement. The reality of the situation struck me. I am a means to an end. He is friendly/polite/supportive when he wants/needs something from me, when it serves his agenda. Ouch. Better to know the truth, it helps me choose a healthy response.
I hung out with the group of like-minded people that I eat lunch with everyday. I had a good time!
I was feeling a sense of obligation to the person who trained me/my boss. Didn’t want to leave them in a lurch. The truth is I’m obligated to protect myself first. They aren’t offering me the same consideration. The company is full of toxic bullies. I’m getting lots of practice recognizing and holding my own by being firm and factual. If someone crosses my limit, they will get the one finger salute and I’m out the door!
Finally growing up and taking responsibility for protecting me.
Be careful with the trusting, please – as you have clearly identified you are not in a safe emotional/ mental environment where you are working and even though I am sure it is a relief and a feeling of support to find others who appear to have similar awareness to you – ie externally validating you, in the flesh – BE CAREFUL with giving your trust freely – to ANYONE in the company you have identified as essentially emotionally toxic – I would be extra, extra wary – no matter if they do shout the right lines and appear to be safe – look after yourself first – you don’t know them yet and you have seen and described some extroadinary behaviour so far of the others – they choose – to spend their time working with.
When you are somewhere where they actually want you to succeed you don’t need to watch your back like this – this is really dreadful. Do you believe all work is like this and this is the best you can get? And that the best you can do is learn strategies to function within this hell? I simply don’t know how you are tolerating it – isn’t it dreadful having to watch your back like this? How precious IS the quality of your life to you?
I am wondering what plans you are acting on to get yourself to somewhere better? Simply thinking that now you KNOW a few things does not on its own help you – you need to ACT consistently on your needs and take steps directly towards it. IE steps towards finding somewhere where someone in upper management wants you to succeed and recognises in you something to celebrate, nurture and cherish – and protect – even if it is only one to start with ie the one who hired you.
Your boss has decided you are a threat to him, he has also decided based on HIS behaviour you describe – that you are not staying – if he can help it. So what are you doing to ensure you have a job, somewhere safe and encouraging and nuturing for you and your career – asap?
At the moment you are clinging to the life raft under extroadinary experiences Veracity – this of course is way better than drowning and to be seriously congratulated for your skill but it is no where near free swimming.
It may be an idea to switch the noise off for a week and really really focus on you and where you want to be and how you want to live and make steps/actions further towards it. Good luck lady.
just had a thought? – I didn’t really know what support was due to my narc family/ relationships and would often feel supported by people who weren’t actually supportive in reality – reintroducing me to more problems – in the end the only way I worked it out, is by comparing them and the feeling I have with them – to my own two good brief experiences in life – if they don’t compare – then I really know.
You probably do this already? but I found it really useful when looking at what looked like the most trustworthy person on the surface – saying all the right things – but in dodgy situations – the gut – as you know tells it all.
I’ll be careful trusting. It is a relief to have some support in this/someone that can/does relate. The business is extremely specialized and something these people (the ones being exploited) are extremely passionate about, and this company is the only one doing it. That’s why they stay. Although many have left because they just couldn’t /wouldn’t take it anymore. They are trying to figure out a way to start their own business and support themselves.
I’m looking after myself. I’m getting much better at detaching/caring less. Being professional and mindful of what I reveal and how I respond.
I understand your questions about is this all I think I can get/deserve. No, it’s not what I deserve and I trust there are much better companies. If this were a ‘permanent’ position, I would have quit already. Since this is a temp position and if I stay the whole time, it’s about 4 more weeks and I’m done. Yeah, it’s awful having to watch my back like this, but in a way it’s helping face reality and to learn how to deal with this reality. I’m developing a thicker skin, it’s way overdue. I’ve been far too trusting/naïve for too long. In the meantime, I’m actively networking and looking for/applying for other jobs.
I’m not convinced my boss sees me as a threat. I could be in denial, but it seems to me that he’s a bit lazy and avoidant and if he can get me to do the work, all the better! Gives him more time to go do whatever he does when he’s not at work. He often comes in between 10&12 and leaves at 3.
The walking ahead thing I think is his EUM stuff. He’s timid/insecure, passive. He is an avoidant kind of a loner. He walked ahead of everyone. He came in and sat at the other end of a row well away from everyone else, by himself. It was really strange and sad. I feel bad for the guy. I know he’s a grown man and is making his choices, but he strikes me as someone who is very scared. He was having trouble breathing and wringing his hands during the event. I’ve been this person! That wanting to get close, but not wanting to risk being vulnerable, so you stay away.
One of the guys I was sitting with yelled down to him joking with him about why he was sitting where he was sitting, he was smiling, shrugging and saying the seat was open. He slipped out early. Might be why he chose to sit there too! I’m not taking it personally.
I’ll reevaluate the next time we work together again to see if he seems threatened and/or throwing me under the bus.
I’ve been going by my gut with everyone and so far it has been spot on, so I’m continuing to trust it.
Thanks again, Oona. It feels wonderful to have this support and feedback!
Great – you have plans in place and are acting on them or planning to – yep struggled myself with understanding people were threatened by me – heard it alot but never believed it and still find it difficult – my evidence showed people attacking me often – so I assumed this was because they had power and strength over me and THEREFORE WEREN’T FRIGHTENED/ threatened by me hense their ability to take advantage of me without their conscience kicking in – as mine would – the evidence also showed I felt and was vulnerable therefore felt no threat to anybody – so therefore couldn’t be? Oh how wrong I was.
It’s confusing – on the one hand you see a strong well supported man with no come back for his actions, seemingly not frightened to do what he wants to you – yet you are told he is threatened by little old you?
Deceptive.
1/ You are temporary – so his usual hook over you ie you are in a niche market and this is the ONLY place for your full time job (crumbs) that you need to pay your mortgage and put the kids through school or buy the latest iphone – so you better behave and do what I want you to do – which is to turn a blind eye and make him look good even when he isn’t – ISN’T going to work on you in quite the same way – as full time staff – it is less convincing because he has no current full time position to dangle as a carrot in front of you and hook you. He has less to bank on using in order to manipulate you.
2/ You are aware – and have not fallen into the usual traps he has set up by now to gain control – ie taking over the work he couldn’t do – seemingly against his wishes – when bosses intervened, the ego stroking, not dropping yourself in it over his little set up with the boss etc…
3/ He is not good at his job and it is known by others – whereas you probably are good at yours? Or at least have the intent and ability/potential, if supported properly, to rise and learn to do his job better and more reliably than he is doing.
4/ If you think you are the only person to know the above think again – he will feel it – even if he suppresses it – just like you.
5/ He has used an ambiguous laying on the hands strategy in order to determine what your likely reaction to his boundary crossing would be – because he probably felt threatened – and wanted to make himself feel secure again and in control.
The undermining strategies of you that you describe your boss partaking in, stem from his own insecurities – you spot that well – but you are choosing not to link his insecurity – with feeling threatened???? Which can be social situations as well – and rightly so he feels uncomfortable – with the games he is playing with people – he knows what he is doing – of course he will feel threatened when they are together as a group – you are all more powerful than HE is as a group together. As you found out personally when you socialized with one person from the office!
It is really dangerous to feel SORRY for him!???? Has this happened before? After what he has done and how he has behaved towards you?!!! It is good to have compassion but you need to have it for YOURSELF more than anyone else, first. This man has broken your boundaries and shows no sign of acknowledging this – let alone stopping it from happening again or stopping it from progressing to worse.
An interesting feeling I always find present in these situations around insecure/threatened people – is anxiety – yet they themselves ‘seem’ unscathed by anxiety mostly?
Anxiety triggers the endocrine system and promotes such things as confusion – and a myriad of poor/difficult decisions follows… basically making you and your body work ten times harder for your normal level of comprehension – giving you a high loss of energy etc…leading to low energy and mistakes in trust and often some or many kinds of betrayal.
Good job you are only in this company for four weeks longer! I wish for you better in your next job – you don’t deserve to work under these dreadful conditions – and it is not necessary – there is always a choice and action you can take – its just whether or not you are prepared to trust yourself AND take action on it, that is the hardest decision, I have found.
Thank you, Oona. I’m going reread this post several times.
I think there may be some confusion on who my boss is. My boss is not the one who is openly aggressive, demanding, puts his hands on me, slipped work in my box and tried to blame me. I do see this guy as threatened by me. I do see that he is extra dangerous when he sees I’m not buying it! I DO NOT feel sorry for this guy. He’s aggressive and wants his way and doesn’t care who he hurts in the process. This guy doesn’t act like he’s done anything wrong – he’ll play it whatever way he ‘needs to’ to get what he wants. This is another director, not my boss.
My boss is passive and timid and appears to be the peacemaker, perhaps? My boss is the one who is having anxiety/panic attacks and wringing his hands. So far, I have experienced him as an unorganized, lazy?, procrastinator who spends as little time as possible in that place as possible. He has also been kind, patient and supportive. He’s been honest and vulnerable when he doesn’t know what he’s doing. I’ve been able to come to him when I’ve made a mistake and he doesn’t make a big deal of it, or make me feel bad, he takes it in stride. He’s stuck up for me via email with other directors. He’s asked directors to come to him instead of me when they want to push something through. I think he’s running interference for me. I now tell him what I need and think (within reason) and I don’t feel threatened. So that’s why I don’t see him as seeing me as a threat. I am doing my job, the work he needs done, and I’m doing it well. I’m making him look good and he gets out early and has to do less work! He has responded promptly to my emails since the 4 days later email. My sense is that he has more confidence in that I know what I’m doing so he is giving me more to do. Unfortunately, he’s seen that I’m good at figuring things out, so instead of helping me figure things out when he didn’t know either, he just left me to figure it out. I do not/did not appreciate that! When he puts something else on my plate like this I’m going to schedule a date/time with him to work on whatever it is way ahead of the deadline.
The way he treated me last week when he kept walking was rude and I do not know why he did that. It hurt my feelings. We clearly have a business only relationship – he’s not interested in any sort of a ‘friendship’ with me. That seems to apply to the rest of the people that work there as well.
“you don’t deserve to work under these dreadful conditions – and it is not necessary – there is always a choice and action you can take – its just whether or not you are prepared to trust yourself AND take action on it, that is the hardest decision, I have found.”
This is exactly what I’m afraid he does not recognize. That he feels trapped. I was in a similar position in my last job and I had so many false beliefs/fears keeping me stuck. I had a child depending on me and I didn’t trust myself to be able to quit and take care of myself even though I couldn’t find another job. I almost had a nervous breakdown.
I do recognize this now. I quit that job and took the leap of faith and it was an amazing feeling! I knew I deserved better and I survived. I know that I can quit at any time and I’ll be just fine. I am checking in with myself daily to see if I should quit.
I haven’t ruled out that he is betraying me/will betray me. I may be letting my compassion get the better of me. I’m also recognizing that I need to take the focus off him and let go of my wanting to protect and save him from his anxiety/choices (which I cannot do) and focus on me. To protect me – my team of one – the only one I’m responsible for protecting/saving.
I’m looking at this as an education. If the tuition gets too expensive, I’ll drop out!
Ah I understand – my mistake – I had lumped all the misdeamenors together under the one boss hat and was becoming increasingly anxious for you – shows just how you can never really know without walking in the same shoes – thanks for describing sounds like actually a nice man and things are going really well in reality.
I am impressed at your perception of what is going on around you and it is interesting how different it feels when those things are not concentrated in one person but actually spread around you more – like its possibly easier to deal with somehow if the arrows don’t all come from the same person.
That’s understandable, lots of moving parts/misdeamenors.
Thank you. I think the great advice and support from you and others on BR, practice and the meds are really helping. I’ve gotten to the place where I really don’t care much. I’m not over invested anymore. I don’t take this personally, and not much surprises me anymore. I actually chuckled as some BS today! Someone was sizing me up today and all they got was calm and confident! Mr. Hands is giving me a wide birth and acting super polite (not buying it for a minute). I stand up every time he comes to my door.
Feels really, really good!
Thanks again, Oona! You are a blessing.
there are laws in place for sexual harassment
Unfortunately the process often puts the victim through the ringer after they have already been harassed and exploited by their employer. It’s often easier and more productive to leave, especially when your self esteem has been beaten down and all of your mental resources have been tapped out. I’ve also discovered that they choose people who do not have support and are more vulnerable – single women/single parents. Now I know why the v.p. asked me if I was married. I thought he was trying to get to know me. Nope, he was sizing me up to see how vulnerable I was/am. Asshole.
Veracity,
Your talk of office politics and bullying has caused me to recall some uncomfortable workplace memories. People can be good at getting away with what they want.
When I was 19 and working retail, I blurted out the name of my manager’s ex-wife, just to get a reaction. I got one. He blockaded me in a back room and wouldn’t let me leave until I told what I knew, which was basically just her name. And then he stuck a pencil down my shirt (cleavage) but I didn’t tell, because I “started” it. He had me train a 16 yr old. Then he demoted me and she got my position. Then my bf started dating her. I eventually quit. A couple years later, this mgr was arrested for theft at this same store.
About 10 yrs later, different job, a male coworker unknowingly followed me down basement stairs to the bathrooms. He came in the women’s room and blocked the door. He claimed I’d been flirting with him or something like that, so here he was, ready to cash in. I knew if I screamed, nobody would hear me. I was scared. Somehow I was able to waste time and play nice, naive, dumb, sweet until he finally moved and let me leave. He never touched me, and I never told anyone.
In another job, less than 10 yrs ago, the owner ‘HAD TO’ guide the mouse by putting his hand on top of mine. This was the first ughh I was reminded of, Veracity, when you started writing. Nobody else was in the building. It happened more than once so I learned to move away. I couldn’t quit because I was fighting for child custody and had to be working. It was horrible. There was nobody else to tell. A year later I was “let go” for “not being interested in the job”. WTF, seriously, because he had all the power and I had none. Disgusting.
Say Something, That’s terrible and yes, I agree, people can be good at getting away with what they want. I will add especially with young (or old), naive people and people in a vulnerable position. These people continually test to see what they can get away with. Predators.
It is disgusting. That’s one of the many reason it’s so important to develop self-esteem and boundaries. When they get push back on these tests, they will often find someone else, an easier mark.
I agree, the victim is put through the ringer, everything is supposed to be anonymous, but it’s not (especially if your boss is good friends with his boss, human resources, etc). It’s the upper management club. If you aren’t in it, you (the victim) are disposable
There are laws – it is estimated that 50% of women in the US will experience some unwanted form of physical sexual abuse within their lifetime – yet only 7% of that 50% figure actually take it to a legal point.
I believe one of the reasons is because often abusers are people that victims are reliant on/have power over them in some way and victims know that once they go down this route they will possibly be ostracized by the community and person they depend on and made to pay/lose even more than they already have done by suffering the abuse in the first place.
The law is an easier proposition when the victim has more of an equal footing with said perpetrator or serious support — but then in that situation, of course, they would be too chicken to go near you if they felt you were more their equal and they might get their a** kicked.
Hense forming the ability to put in strict boundaries, is essential – but really not easy if you have already suffered a form of abuse before and scared stiff to move, let alone vocalize what is going on and freeze.
Good for you Veracity. Trust is something that I rarely give to anyone these days until I know that they are worth it.
This is where we get ourselves into so much trouble especially with men. When we really like them we automatically hand ourselves over to them trusting they will do the right thing by us. And then it all goes wrong because we didn’t do our due diligence and let them EARN our trust and love, we flung ourselves away on a high of chemistry and passion without hesitation (I always used to be like this) and couldn’t work out why it all went wrong and ended up in tears – again!
I’ll give people the benefit of the doubt once (I’m not perfect and I do make mistakes) but as for trusting them, no way until I know they are actually trustworthy.
Always be careful of where you place your trust.
Thanks, Pauline. I used to think I was being too hard/ judgmental when I didn’t extend trust to people. I would feel guilty. Now I know better. Let them demonstrate their trustworthiness consistently before trusting. Having said that, I think I’m still too trusting. I was wired to trust untrustworthy people (my parents), changing that wiring takes time and practice.
Veracity
It’s a process and does take time and practice. I have no doubt you will get there.
The users and abusers, BS’ers, AC’s and the rest just love to take advantage of our trusting natures and the fact that we aren’t doing our due diligence makes it so easy for them to take advantage.
I don’t automatically assume that everyone has an agenda to use me for whatever reason but I do take a lot more notice of whether words and actions match and if they are consistent in dealing with me and other people. Telling stupid lies and contradicting themselves is a red flag for me.
I went on a date with a guy I met through a friend (didn’t know him apart from initial introduction) a few weeks ago and he had booked the table under a false name. When I asked him why he did that he said it was a joke. Needless to say I paid for my own meal and I haven’t had any contact with him since. Can you imagine what this guy would be like down the track, who would know if he was ever telling the truth about anything.
Thank you so much Nat for the one shot, keep it simple. It makes life so much easier.
Booking the table under a false name – that is really strange and yes, a good heads-up on how he thinks/behaves! I’ve known people like that – never know when they’re telling the truth – next!
Good call!
Sounds like we’ve been involved with the same man Erika! Devastating effect is spot on.
I am gobsmacked by the destruction & damage I’ve LET this w*nker cause in my life. I must have had a (luckily!) sheltered existence so far coz I didn’t understand what had happened to me until I read Natalie’s book.
Now I know I was fast forwarded & future faked by a returning childhood sweetheart whose professed 25 year heartache & intense love just swept me away. Despite my cautious start & spotting the red flags I ignored my reservations, & he knew me of old so well that he knew my vulnerabilities.
The worst, most unforgivable thing is the way he’s utterly destroyed my 25 year old memories of my first serious love; I can’t think of my teenage past without this intruding, & the associations are everywhere, every day. And yes, we were everything to each other then, for 2 long blissful years. And then recently the 5 blissful months, before he started ‘managing down my expectations’, whilst still offering marriage obviously! He couldn’t admit his limitations to himself let alone me, coz then he’d have to face up to the truth of his cowardly, cheating existence.
So that sweet 19 year old is now a liar & a player, & I found out in the most painful way.
But I’m a peach – I’m so battered and bruised by this but deep inside my kernel is rock-hard, coz I know, love & accept myself as I am, flaws & mistakes & all, & NO man – person – is going to take me down.
(I’ve survived an EU emotionally repressed father & a narc mother, it makes you stronger than you think! & my mother has the full blown personality disorder, unfortunately. Pure nasty. Pity it took me 40 years to realise there was such a disorder, life could have been so different).
I’m so sorry Peachy D – it makes you wonder where the people are to educate the kids like Natalie has for us? Would save so much heart ache.
Too true. I also want to look at my own self deception. I’ve been listening to a certain international classical musician perform at my church. His music is exquisite and I see sparks and colors in my minds eye as well as feel very taken by the emotions produced in me. He’s tried to engage me somewhat and I have found in the process that he is a dyed in the wool narcissist. I’ve been NC since January 2015 but still have been around for his recitals. Although he tries to approach me I have been very consistent in ignoring him or at best a distant ‘Hello’ as we pass in the hall.
A few days ago there was another recital. I came in after he finished his remarks and left before he came out for his bows. I found the music so exquisite and evocative. People jumped up and down shouting and yelling in praise at the end so it wasn’t just me.
Now my question. Given that music can evoke great emotion in the listener would I be cooperating in his lies and my self deception to continue to listen to him play? If he lies to me when we are together couldn’t he also lie in the emotion he invokes into his music when he plays and that I then pick this up in my listening?
I’ve heard him infuse emotions into his playing when he knew I was listening. Now I try not to let him know I am listening. Thanks to any music buffs out there.
Non contact means all sounds, sights and experiences related to said person – that you can choose to not participate in – ie everything, apart from contact due to shared children and genuine work contact, ie not predetermined by yourself.
The sooner you maintain this the sooner the pain will stop and the healing can take place. Until then – the only person you are conning is yourself.
Oona, right. I don’t have to stay with that church. I guess I just don’t like to think that he is in effect chasing me away from my choice. I have made another choice and it’s time I decided to stick to that. Thanks!
I’m glad it is helping – you seemed stuck somewhere that isn’t good for you – no matter what it looks or sounds like. Sometimes it can be really hard to really see or hear something for what it really is because you want it to be so good for once that you can’t see the wood for the trees. A toxic environment for you – is a toxic environment – no matter what goodies and carrots they can dangle in front of you. Better luck with your next church/ musicians – what about focusing on brilliant female musicians for a while?
Oona, well when I first came to that church and listened to the music for the first 5 weeks or so I didn’t know whether it was a man or woman playing. The musician was hidden behind a screen. I was so dazed by the music I couldn’t gather enough sense to ask someone about it. The name on the program was a foreign spelling and it could have been a man or a woman. Finally I asked an usher and she pointed to the wall behind the alter and said it was a screen. Until she pointed it out I couldn’t see it.
Ultimately the music is emotionally relayed and it doesn’t make any difference if it is by a man or a woman. So telling me to concentrate on woman musicians doesn’t make sense to me. I respond to the expression in the music. I think he made a mistake thinking I was originally interested in him. Then he attracted me and due other issues I began to respond to him and so on and so on.
So you fell in love with the music first – and then bonus it was a male musician – so you could easily project/fantasize and build up your illusion of perfection personified in the genius musician – and use the music to keep you hooked?
I repeat – it would make a difference for you at the moment – to focus on female musician’s because you wouldn’t be able to keep ANY illusion of a romance once a female was unearthed from behind the screen – and then it really would be the expression of music you were interested in, rather than an attachment to a complete fantasy, you are unable to actually attain.
It is interesting to me that you balk at things that are clearly healthy for you and have less potential to hurt you in reality and are constantly making, what on the surface seems like an intelligent arguement to maintain a relationship – with people who can hurt you easily! – currently.
Sadly you aren’t only responding to the ‘expression in music’ you are responding to what you believe it alludes to in your head/emotions – ie you say – beauty – which in this case is in stark contrast to the actual reality of this situation = illusion and deluded, lust. Attachment is not beautiful it is bloody ugly and painful – it is not loving and nuturing, it is destructive.
For your healing to start you need to at least start on a level playing field and be fully safe from harm, in order to not transfer your enmeshed attachment to someone else – and rinse, repeat yourself all over again.
I wonder? perhaps you find female musicians inferior? and if so – why? especially if you have a tendancy to get attached to male musicians who treat you with less than respect and love.
If you had said that watching a female musician would have been a waste of time because you are also sexually and emotionally attracted to females – then I may have believed your ‘nonsense’ dismissive line but otherwise its just more conning – of yourself – again.
Protect yourself – and then protect yourself again Mistea1 – you deserve to feel genuine happiness not this guff from the pied piper hidden behind a screen.
Mistea, I completely agree with Oona. What you’re doing is not NC, especially since for you creating/ listening to the music equals communicating feelings. I know what bothers you, how can a narcissistic EUM – which you know he is – create such emotional, wonderful music full of depth? I think there’s a part of you which thinks that yes, he might be EUM on the surface but deep down he really loves you. Am I therefore unjust to him? You know what? Quite possibly that part of you is right. He might really deeply and wonderfully love you but the bottom line is that he’s still EUM and can’t and won’t express (consistently) his love in a way you need and want to be loved. Also, many of these (wo)men are indeed “in love” but only for a short time – when they future fake, make declarations etc. they really, really have strong feelings you and absolutely mean what they say (that’s why they’re so persuasive) but they also quickly forget you and move on (and on, and on …) These people are so confusing you can feel their love but their consistent actions simply aren’t there.
For me it was very important to realise this. Unlike many of people here I don’t have a problem with liars and cheaters, and I’ve never had a relationship with MM. Still, I have deep issues with EUMs, mostly with these two categories. It was such a relief to me when I realised that yes, that a man can and did (deeply) love me but still not being able to express his love in a way I needed it. And as I was raised with the idea that deep down daddy loved me in his own way (which wasn’t also my way) I thought that I just needed to work really hard to get to that very deep down and get loved in a way I needed to be loved. Now I just know that this deep down is often bottomless pit, not worth the time and yes, I need to be loved in my own way (regardless of how much other person might love me in their own way).
It’s well possible that this man loves you, even deepely, and he can only express his feelings through the music. It’s also possible that he can’t express, act on his feelings because of his deep seated issues but it’s not up to you to resolve these issues for him. But it’s up to you to realise how you want and above all, need to be loved and go for it.
Of course, it’s also possible that this man is indeed a narcissist, just very good at faking his way in both life and music. Or maybe just a cad. In any case, you need to go complete NC. He’s not the only (great) musician in the world. Listen to others, at least for the time being. But definitely go NC.
I’d add to Mephista’s wise comment (if I may), that in my experience people like that – commitmentphobes or EUMs are able to be “in love” because they are in love with their own future faking where you’re just a projection. They idolize you and they love this non-you image. With THIS they are indeed in love. But it’s their own self-fulfilling prophecy at play here: once you stay long enough with them to actually unfold, they feel let down or betrayed and fall out of “love”. They can love only a fantasy girl. That is what keeps them going from woman to woman.
Also, this level of superficiality, when once they see you cannot be that superwoman they imagined you to be, is o-kay for them. They don’t desire anything more. If only the illusion could last longer! But no woman is ever good enough as it’s impossible to compete with your image in their own imagination. Very very often, EUMs set you up for failure from the very beginning. It’s important to be honest with them and with yourself from the very beginning. This scares them good.
Why and Mephista,
Thank you for your clarifications. I could sense that for a short time there was a type of love feeling developing. So it was confusing.
Then I knew that he was using my feelings for him to boost his emotional energy in his performances. I could tell that the first time I spoke to him he seemed old and almost depressed. By the third time I spoke with him he seemed to morph into a much taller, younger man. Part of this is that I was intrigued with the change. I didn’t pay enough attention to my reactions to all this I guess. I was completely drawn in for a while.
“get down to the deep part and get loved in the way I needed,” exactly. I think you hit the nail on the head here, Mephista. Thanks for your hard work in sorting this out for yourself you have really helped me.
I’d better start playing and singing for my own self now. Thanks to all who have replied.
@Why: this is the most accurate and concise description I’ve read of the EU dynamics yet. I am going to frame it. It really is the core of narcisism, or callous self-deception if you wish.
In regards to your post above, I feel like that too. Like I keep screwing up, but at least now I know what I’m doing and can stop when it becomes too much (and the threshold for BS is lower and lower). It feels so much better. So much better.
Best, V.
I love the correlation between working really hard – deep down and a bottomless pit – really good – never thought of it that way but is so spot on.
Yes, it highlights to fruitlessness of the attempt – the self sabotage for even trying.
Mistea1,
“Now my question. Given that music can evoke great emotion in the listener would I be cooperating in his lies and my self deception to continue to listen to him play? If he lies to me when we are together couldn’t he also lie in the emotion he invokes into his music when he plays and that I then pick this up in my listening?”
Putting passion and emotion into his art is not at all the same as being emotionally avaiable. He LOVES music, is a gifted performer, and the public recognizes his talent.
I am obviously no expert on music, but… Expressing and evoking emotion through music does NOT correlate with being a good person, a committed partner, or emotionally available in any capacity. Performers in a musical will captivate their audiences. While the performance is stunning, the emotions someone feels will be based on several factors including his/her own personal experiences, enjoyment of the particular genre of
music, ability to relate to the theme Charming people can be
deceptive.
The others are correct in that NO CONTACT is your best bet. You are making his music about you and him. It’s not. It it (or a piece) WAS TRULY for and about you, it would be *dedicated to Mistea1* and you wouldn’t have to work to extract some deep buried, poetic meaning. Some people DO play/sing/perform for a special person. And it’s not a secret.
Find your own music. Someone else. ANYONE else.
Say Something,
This post by you to Mistea1 is from a woman with strength. Bravo!! You say, Find your own music. Someone else. ANYONE else. How do we get you to harness this same strength in your own life? You need to find your own music. Someone else. ANYONE else. And I will add Anything else.
Your own music is the new path you decide to forge so that deceitfulaz is the PAST. Try daily to shift your focus. Remove the emotion (like you do in this post) and give yourself the gift of starting your life OVER. I know you can do it. Regroup and start over.
Don’t let decietfulaz steal another day. Grab up your beautiful children and go out. Do something fun. Look each one of them in the face and smile. You have gifts some woman can only dream about. He has hurt you so bad that you cant see the good that is right in front of YOU. I know how it hurts. TRY. The woman giving advice in this post is so strong. This woman doesn’t blink when she meets a lyingaz she kicks him to the curb. She has the strength to create a new life and learn from the hurt. Hell she might even write a book about it.
The hurt only serves as a way to create a better future. You can do it! You have talked about all that you have accomplished. So, here is your next challenge. Operate from a position of strength -just as you gave advice to Mistea1. Do it!
Hugs,
MJ
MJ,
Again thank you for your insight and encouragement. This post of not bs-ing ourselves and having self awareness has promoted me to write this comment. And cry.
So I will be honest and come clean. Pre-BGE, I was someone’s FWB; A divorced neighbor. He invited me over for a drink. And so it began, innocently at first. There were a few more invites and I enjoyed talking, laughing, and having a few drinks with him. But after several weeks, things changed. There was sex. The invites became spontaneous. The times became later. And sometimes I was put on hold until he texted me an all clear… Child asleep, friends gone, whatever. Sometimes the text never came and I just went to bed waiting. I then realized I wasn’t the only one. I went anyway. I felt like crap after. I cried. I asked a friend why he would do this to me and she said “He’s not doing anything to you. He’s just doing what HE WANTS.” She was right. I went back for more. And felt crappier. And cried more. BUT THEN I stopped bs-ing myself. I had to get real. I promised myself NO MORE. I cried, I processed, I accepted. I STOPPED what was hurting me and vowed NEVER to get involved like that again. I thought I could handle it. I couldn’t. I let some guy use me for sex.
ONLY a man who liked me, who cared about me, and who would love me would be worthy of me sharing myself like that. No exceptions. I knew what I wanted. I wanted a real, caring relationship, not just sex.
Eventually I met BGE and he was worthy!!! Finally! I did it!!! I know I told him the elevator pitch version when we talked… (I got involved in a FWB situation, and realized I needed more than that… something along those lines.) So he knew I wanted more.
But, BGE broke my heart. Not only that, but in believing him, I also broke my deep-down, most important, secret promise to myself. Only a really good guy. A guy who isn’t just using me for sex.
So ffwd to the other day. FWB guy out of the blue contacts me, and his message references our escapades and he wonders what my current situation is. I responded generically, but didn’t take the bait.
I CAN be strong for myself. Except with ONE guy. I DID love him. I believed in him. I gave away my power and I gave away my self when I gave away my heart to him. And that’s as honest with myself as I can get.
Say Something,
Have you experienced any type of joy or happiness since the last relationship ended? Please try to answer this question. I am really concerned about you. I am one of your biggest cheerleaders. I want you to heal.
When you meet someone new at least consider NEVER mentioning these two men. Walk into your new relationship with a clean slate. I don’t think you are ready for a new relationship. You need to build up your confidence. Restore your self-esteem. You are still stuck on him and it will only damage anything new.
You have to teach your new guy how to treat you with respect. So, you need to learn to filter yourself. If you tell some men what you are willing to deal with FWB they will give you more of the same. If you tell them you accepted a FWB set-up it means you lack self worth. Then they may do things like ignore your birthday. Not show up for you when you have a crisis. Disrespect you. You have told them what you are deserving of without realizing it.
In the case with the FWB. You set yourself up for more hurt by going back for more after you had already determined it wasn’t good. Why? Frankly, you had to know pretty early this was not going to turn out good. You placed yourself in harms way knowingly. I see a pattern. When the jerk told you the night you were at his house it was over. You stayed and let him have sex with you. You even did an extended weekend with him. I think. When you feel hurt and confused again-pause and walk away to look at what is going on. Protect yourself.
One important thing that you should know by reading BR is that when you start a new relationship the only person responsible for protecting YOU is YOU. Your belief is that deceitfulaz knew what you went through and he was supposed to make sure he didn’t break your heart. WRONG. No, it is your job to set boundaries and look for the red flags. You have to stand guard over your heart. Your emotional health is on the line each time you enter a relationship. Don’t just allow anyone to enter your circle. I have seen ways that you are still failing to protect yourself.
You have done lots of reading and analyzing after your heartbreak. I am so surprised that you would even respond to FWB guy. Do you really understand about setting boundaries? He does not EVER deserve a response from you. As I read posts on BR I am taking mental notes about games men play. I am learning from the hurt people here have experienced. I have a better understanding of the games men play. I want tolerate anymore BS. The minute it enters my life the person will exit stage left-no questions-no tolerance for it.
Psychology Today says, (https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/in-flux/201110/transition-through-loss-what-you-need-know-when-significant-relationship-ends),
Prolonged grief or non-closure of a relationship can lead to the unhealthy syndrome of idealizing, memorializing, and even canonizing (especially one who is deceased), or conversely, demonizing, the one who has left us. Either way, the grieving party may remain stuck, unresolved, and unable to move forward.
I believe the above statement rings true for you. You are stuck. Unresolved. Unable to move forward. People posting to you have encouraged you to stop idealizing and memorializing him. I have now accepted that you will forever refer to this guy who broke your heart with a nickname he does not even deserve. Just the disregard he showed for your health should make your blood boil. That is the true sign of understanding what he thought of you. With each post you continue to idealize him in spite of everything he did and the impact it has had on you. You still appear to think more of him then you do yourself. He has a HOLD over your life that needs to be CUT. When will you really start to love yourself? I know you are worth it. I see your real heart in these posts. When will you see your value? Are you going to let this SOB take you out?
Only YOU can decide when this ends. As this man moves on in his new relationship. You drag all of this hurt with you into each new day. You said he is your focus daily and you still think of him.
I am here pulling for you. I know Sofia is pulling for you. You have support here. Just keep trying.
HAVE YOU HAD ANY HAPPINESS SINCE THAT RELATIONSHIP ENDED? This is what I want to know. I am alone but I have found happiness with projects and with my traveling. I have tried to cultivate new friends. One day things will be much better, but things have shifted for me.
HUGS,
MJ
Hi MJ,
I have avoided your question and you are rightly calling me out on it. I have had some pockets of happiness, little moments here and there, but it’s not lasting and sustained, or what I would consider just pure joy. It’s hurtful to admit that, and I didn’t want to sound negative, so I didn’t answer. I see joy around me but I don’t feel it. I know it’s my thing to fix, dragging around some idealized version of a guy who doesn’t like me. And I know this isn’t the ‘nice’ answer, it’s just the real one.
My feelings for FWB guy are neutral, just friendly, and we have communicated as such over the past couple years, nothing more. Boundaries in place, and no boundaries violated. Hadn’t heard from him since April and this last msg was different, so it surprised me. A couple years ago, yes I DID make the poor decisions to go back for more. I recognized it was not a good for me- the hurt outweighed the good. Why would I go back? He was fun. It was a good time AT THE TIME. But it came with a price and i realized THAT’S NOT what I want or need. I admit it. I own it. I stopped it. It was never a relationship and I know that. That stupid mess was my wake up call.
I know I have handled and overcome so many other major disappointments- death, divorce, career sacrifice, the end of some dreams, and failure, financial burdens and distress, dissolved friendships. This time it’s different. And exponentially worse.
Yes, I think I have prolonged grief, or something similar. And to clarify, I referenced that I made A MISTAKE being involved with a FWB situation. Maybe I should not have told him that? Idk but I was being honest and I DID say it. I didn’t dwell on it. He never treated me anything like that…never. until the end. Nothing like that. I truly, deeply believed he was a real, good, honest, caring person. I thought he liked me. What was I told? ‘He’s a keeper. You have a great guy. He seems really into you.’ Other people confirmed what I already believed. I listened to my gut. I listened to him. I listened to friends and family. I’ve spent the past year trying to figure out what I missed, what went wrong, what happened. I still don’t know. All I know is that I was so wrong. So completely fucking wrong. Right now I feel like wreckage.
Say Something,
Please know that I only expect you to tell me the truth. Like you do. Meaning you have clearly explained your struggle. I don’t expect you to recover on my time table. I have always said this is your time table. NO ONE here is going to make that call for you. The work is yours to do. I do want to support you. You certainly support me. So, the support you give me shows me you have strength.
You are like a little bird who has been wounded. So, you can’t fly right now as high as you have. It doesn’t mean you cant SOAR again. That is all I am trying to convey to you. I am virtual, but I am here in your corner.
Please when you start over in a new relationship file these two short term relationships away. You my dear need to learn from them, but they don’t really serve as a selling point to a new man. This is my personal opinion. Your call. But share the fact that you were involved in a long term marriage that ended and you are on good terms. You were able to share a hotel room. Take sharing slow until you know for fact that you are safe. My only intent is the next person in your life (may not be a future husband) better damn well treat you with respect. Cause you are going to DEMAND it.
Say Something I honestly believe it takes longer than 6 months to get to REALLY know someone. But I also know that you can spend years with someone (like I did) and they can still deceive YOU. You may not be able to appreciate this but thank goodness you only had six months to deal with him and not years.
I am still dealing with nightmares. I have never had anything like this in my life. The damn ruminating STOPPED. A miracle. I had a daily tape going off in my head and it was automatic rewind. I am almost afraid to say it stopped. The fear is it will come back.
But the nightmares continue and they are always about him doing something God awful towards me. I have been waking up screaming. Maybe this is my last stage of torture.
We are going to be fine. Please know my only intent with my advice is that you protect yourself. Again, healing will be at your own pace. BR is a great place to heal. Pour your heart out here this is a safe place.
MJ
MJ,
Actually now that you mention the dreams being the last stage, I do believe they were the last thing for me. They occurred less and less then poof.. Gone. BUT… They did come back when he would try to reach me..even when I ignored him (a couple years later) but then it would be one nightmare of him doing something scary and no more. They will go away.
Overwhelmed…
with gratitude for the compassion, wisdom, and humor found in these responses, with the agony of continuous grief, and with frustration in trying to make my way on this most excruciating journey through the wreckage. This post and the last few days have been a virtual smack-down.
@Why, ‘… this level of superficiality, when once they see you cannot be that superwoman they imagined you to be, is o-kay for them. They don’t desire anything more. If only the illusion could last longer! But no woman is ever good enough as it’s impossible to compete with your image in their own imagination.’ He idolized Wonder Woman.
@Selkie, I believe until we’re burned we don’t know hot the fire is. I’ve been burned, but maybe thought I could walk on fire in the past. And yes, I’ve felt so self-aware because THIS time there was no fire, no smoke, no residue. Maybe it was arson.
@Freedme, ‘I think I understand the pain and anguish caused by having the PERCEPTION that this “perfect man” discarded me without warning’ Yep. It is causing me severe physical and emotional distress wondering how even a semi-decent person could do that. And of course, nobody is perfect, but “perfect man” as in my BGE. I have one or two of George Simon’s books. And BGE wrote ‘I’m sad about this’ which to me was completely detached and passive. I relate to what you say.
@Wiser, ‘I’ve finally learned that sometimes you can do everything right and it still doesn’t work out – the person doesn’t respond like you hope, the lover walks away, friends disappear, the business goes bust, the marriage falls apart… that’s not failure, that’s life. Most of the time you’ll never even know why – it remains unresolved and unresolvable.’ You are so right. I wanted SO BADLY just this ONE TIME, this ONE GUY, to be it. I’ve made peace as best I could with all the other let downs. And herein is how I perpetuate my misery. thought #1 *I ‘did everything right’ so he IS the BGE. And now I’ve lost the BGE. Why would the BGE just leave without warning and never look back? The BGE deserves to be with someone equally wonderful and I didn’t make the cut. But he’s too kind and nice to tell me why, so I’ve reacted like a sore loser.* thought #2 *If he’s NOT the BGE, surely I would have noticed along the way. A sign: the heat of the fire, his phone ringing, or texts coming, his attention diminishing, a shift, ANYTHING. But I didn’t so how could I be 100% completely, entirely, I never-want-to-see-you-ever-again-but-you’ve-been-great WRONG unless I was so horribly, without hope, messed up and deceiving myself, pretending that he liked me?* Who is deceiving who? In both these scenarios, it’s my fault.
@Suki, love the term “douche canoe” and actually used it this past weekend. You made me smile with that. I only mentioned FWB guy trying to show: I have grown and learned; I can admit to my mistake, I can now have boundaries, I do not obsess over him. I think I was trying to differentiate between the two. FWB and BGE. They’re not even close. Trying to say “I know the difference. I played with fire. I learned that it hurts!” and I GOT OVER FWB even though I hurt myself. Hell, I even recovered from my divorce. BGE was different. I was purposeful, aware, cautious. And then I gradually trusted and believed. I don’t know what to do differently. I know I need to accept. I don’t know how.
@Mistea1, my username was inspired by hearing a live performance of said song. Haunting.
@Sofia, thank you for your continued support, sharing your story, and for being one of the first people to reach out to me a few months back.
@MJ, my best virtual friend with the heart of gold, I cried at work when I read your kind words, and had to vacate my desk for a bit. You got it worse than I did, and you have tremendous strength that I so need to find. Agreed that I can’t totally know someone in six months. But I want to think I can get a pretty good idea, unless of course someone is completely deceitful. I would have expected, had he not disappeared, that we’d continue to learn more about each other. I would never have imagined the ‘guy I knew’ was even capable of such a blindside discard. Never. But he pulled it off like a pro.
I know I continue deceiving myself by missing him. And I miss him (BGE as I believed) horribly. And I further add to that deception by still wanting that life I believed in (now just illusion) because he promised and I trusted. And I know what I miss so hopelessly can never be, yet it does seem hard-wired to feel the constant and relentless pain. I am not prolonging my misery just for (negative) attention, yet it must benefit me or why can’t I let go?
Say Something,
As I read your words I really wished I could reach out and give you a big warm hug. You are going to be fine. Just keep telling yourself this. I just want you to protect yourself.
You have the most beautiful soul. Please be good to yourself EVERYDAY no matter how small the effort. Do not beat yourself up about the pace of your healing. We are going thru withdrawals(lol). It will take time. We both had cads put knives in our hearts.
You and Sofia threw me my first lifeline. I was ruminating so much about this situation that I thought someone might wrap me up in a little white jacket and take me away.
If you miss him just deal with the feeling as it comes. Before when I missed him I would say to myself – you don’t really miss him you just need some good company. But there are days I had this strong inclination to call him. I talk myself out of it each time. Why on earth would I dare call someone who failed to keep their commitment to me? Not gonna do it. I don’t want a man who didn’t want me.
We are both strong but what happened turned us to a mushy pea state. It is only a temp situation. Did you read the article on rejection Freedme posted? It is so good. I still have days that I feel like a little misfit toy left on Santa’s shelf. Why? He was out running the floors at the HOtel what was wrong with me? As Wiser said you can do everything right and still not get what you hoped for. Acceptance. I had to read about accepting things to heal.
Be good to YOURSELF. I am not 100% yet but I keep trying. Hell I just started listening to music in the car again. That was one of many things I had banned. Certain songs made me cry and for goodness sake I did not want to hear about someone else being loved right -when I was just trying to take my next breathe.
We are all going to be fine. Here is a big hug for my virtual bff.
MJ
Good Morning Mary Jane,
I hope this withdrawal is a temporary state. And as far as my BGE detox, I still think I’m not doing something right. I’m not great at following rules, but I think I have done most of the things that are supposed to help me feel better. Then I wonder, am I lying to myself? Am I not trying hard enough? Am I doing it wrong? I can’t tell.
I have educated myself here especially on BR. Best of the best, and I’ve hit up HUNDREDS of websites, articles, blogs. Ok, and the books and articles, I’ve read them. I’ve been NC, not that it is even a two-way protection because he has never contacted me. EVER. So there is no reason for me to go back for more rejection. And that word is key. I feel completely REJECTED by him and I have taken it to heart and there it stays. I ‘DO’ things, get out, activities, blah blah. It feels blah blah. But I DO it. And I’ve been seeing a therapist for a year. (Never before in my life, btw).
But…. sometimes we can do all the right things and it still doesn’t turn out right. I fear that is what is happening to me now. I am doing the ‘right things’ and they are working for other people here, but not me. Why is it not sinking in? And why do I feel like a mess beyond salvation? In not sinking in, I mean why cannot I not change my thoughts? I can IDENTIFY negative thoughts, like I did in my previous comment. But WHY do I continue to hold them? Maybe I’m NOT doing all the right things? Am I just being resistant? Is ‘IT’ something else? Over a year later how could I possibly be sitting here crying and thinking I miss this guy who probably has forgotten my existence? I know it’s not ok. I worry that my damage is irreparable. Could I continue digging out, but always remain buried in the wreckage? Is this why people give up, because sometimes no matter what, it just doesn’t work? I don’t want that to be true again.
Hi Say Something,
Don’t give up just keep trying. I know this is extreme but there are some real monsters walking this earth. They destroy peoples lives with their lies (you mentioned Jodi Arias and Scott Peterson yesterday).
Read about this MONSTER. A medical doctor who told people that didn’t have cancer they had it and made them take chemo. He violated peoples trust in a MAJOR way. Use this is an example of what people have to face when they deal with liars. He did it out of greed. So, it is a waste to analyze an ass like this or any of the others. The damage is done.
.
There are people who violate your trust and can destroy you if you allow it. My ex fiancé is online and has been looking for someone new. Wiser said it so well in her post- there are some things we may never understand it is (SAD) just life. UNRESOLVED. I know I did everything right. I took good care of myself. He never saw me in all of the years I dated him look sloppy-running around in sweat pants. Every single time I went on a date with him I looked fabulous. It took lots of time and effort on my part. I respected him. I cooked the most delicious dinners and made killer cakes for him(he had a sweet tooth). We had some great times together. He raved about our chemistry but nothing stopped him from doing his dirt to me.
It will do me no good to rehash or try to retrace my steps. I did right by this guy and yet he was in a hotel late at night (after he got down on his sorry ass knee to propose) humping some HO. It is really simple I had a whore on my hands and I realized it before I walked down the aisle with him. He knew he had a good thing with me. He was being shady and I caught him. I m not happy about it, but this is my reality.
Now, I can sit here and analyze him all day while he is on his knees banging someone or move the hell on. He has never called me and I have NEVER called him. Some beautiful flowers were delivered to me one day with NO NOTE. My first thought is they were from him. I did not OPEN that door again. I did not call him or email to ask. Now, I am glad that I didn’t and I kept moving forward without him. There is nothing he could ever do for me. The damage was done. I accept that I will never know how long he was deceiving me. Do you understand how hurtful that is? I will never know how many days he came to my house smiling and telling me he loved me. But when he left he was at a HOtel sleeping around. He put my health at risk. This monster had no concern for me and I loved the ground he walked on.
I no longer care what he is doing. I have to be careful about rehasing because it is not good. My focus is primarily on what is next for me.
Someone made a great suggestion to you. Take a vacation or do something to break up the routine in your life. What is next for you? Is there one small step you can take? I am traveling alone-not ideal but this is my new life.
You aren’t doing anything wrong. This is how life unfolds as Wiser so eloquently told us. Please stop the search for what you did wrong. Kate Hudson’s engagement was called off. All of us have things happen we didn’t plan for. I know my ex is enjoying his life. He was great at turning lemons into lemonade in spite of being a liar and cheat. So, I owe it to myself to try.
This has had a major impact on my life and I will never forget this. But in a year I will feel less hurt. I am going to make the most of each day even though there has been a major shift in my life.
Be good to yourself. Stop judging yourself so harshly. Make it your goal not to analyze why he wanted out. You didn’t waste years like ME. What is next for YOU?
MJ
WHOA Say Something, stop and take a deep breath. Your mind is spinning out of control and it’s likely to spin you right down a nasty rabbit hole. I think I see what is amiss here. You are trying to solve this dilemma by thinking and reasoning it out. If A isn’t the right answer, then it must be B. If it isn’t him, it must be you. Things work out for other people, so they are doing it right – and I’m not. And so on. This is destructive and it’s going nowhere for you. And most important, it doesn’t work. So please take a deep breath and consider this… what you need is not more thinking and tying yourself into a pretzel to try to make 2 + 2 = 4, with lots of nice, tidy answers. What you need is an experience of ACCEPTANCE. No answers. No explanations. No comparing yourself to others. No beating yourself up. Just simple, healing acceptance. Just sitting with the mystery of it and saying “it’s ok, I’m ok, and all shall be well.” If there are lessons to be learned, that will come later. Right now you need to get grounded in your own place of peace and serenity, a place deeper than your exhausted and overworked mind. This is why meditation is so helpful and essential. Also affirmations, prayer, breathing mantras… all are tools to help you access your true self and inner resources.
I really like the approach that Susan Elliott uses on her Getting Past Your Breakup blog. When you are driving yourself crazy trying to figure out what happened and how could he do this, and why, why, and how, how, and that you can’t rest until you get answers, etc., she says just keep repeating “It Doesn’t Matter. It Doesn’t Matter. It Doesn’t Matter. It Doesn’t Matter…”
See? This is a mantra, not an answer. Which is why it’s brilliant and why it works. The approach is not to fixate on changing your thoughts right now because your thoughts are locked in a death spiral with your fear and pain. They are going round and round and nowhere. You need a break from your thinking, not more of it. I urge you to find a meditative practice that appeals to you and stick with it for a period of time.
Hi Say Something,
This is information from Susan Anderson’s Blog. Wiser mentioned her. So, I pulled some information for you. Are you tired of reading? Like you I have read so much stuff. Acceptance is the key.
Here is the link to Susan Anderson’s blog:
Some excerpts from Anderson Blog:
Trying to Change the Unchangeable?
When you catch yourself railing against the reality of your situation – digging in your heels to ward off having to accept what’s happened – and realize how futile your efforts are, you get in touch with your ability to calmly face facts and ask yourself what choice you really have. You can either continue gnashing your teeth and wringing your hands or you can use the same energy to Rise To The Occasion. What occasion? The occasion of taking the love that is bursting out of your heart for someone you have lost– love that has no place else to go – and convert it into the kind of love you can give to yourself and the world around you. This love is a transforming kind of love – a generalized, self-empowering kind of love that isn’t for one special person, that just IS.
This is love that you will first give to yourself as you would an oxygen mask on an airplane, and then bestow its life-saving sustenance on your loved ones.
How to Begin the Process
Converting love for an ex into love for oneself becomes possible only when you begin facing (and stop protesting) the simple, but painful reality that you no longer have that person to focus your love on. Who else but yourself to make the object of your love? This self-love thing is probably long overdue for you, anyway. You’re handy, that’s for sure – and most likely have nothing better to do emotionally. When you get the self-love thing going, it gives you a new beginning. As your self-love gains momentum, it automatically spreads to others.
MJ
SS, I think sometimes that when we’ve dealt with a lot of pain and grief in our lives, such as death, divorce, loss of dreams, financial hardship, major disappointments, etc. we have a deep need for SOMETHING to work out right. We might not even know how deep that need is and so when what we’ve pinned our hopes on doesn’t work out, it seems as you said, exponentially worse.
I think the time has come to stop making yourself crazy by trying to figure out what went wrong, or how you were “wrong.” I don’t even think the word “wrong” applies here. I’m in my mid 50s and I’ve finally learned that sometimes you can do everything right and it still doesn’t work out – the person doesn’t respond like you hope, the lover walks away, friends disappear, the business goes bust, the marriage falls apart… that’s not failure, that’s life. Most of the time you’ll never even know why – it remains unresolved and unresolvable. Other people are often complete mysteries and many times their actions are inexplicable even to themselves. That’s why trying to figure HIM out is futile. Blaming yourself for being wrong about HIM is also futile. Don’t punish yourself because he acted badly. That’s like saying, ok he was a thoughtless creep so I’m going to respond by hitting myself in the head with a hammer.
The only thing to do here is to treat yourself with compassion and see what there is to learn from this experience. A lot of gold can be found in wreckage!
@Say something; to not feel joy is a classic symptom of depression. Perhaps consider getting checked for that. You also seem to judge yourself very harshly – another symptom of depression.
I thought with the ex-EUM (who is not BGE in any way nor did I think that) – I thought that sometimes one just likes an a**hole. Thats it. We’re human. We’re weak. We like someone and it takes a while to realize they’re a total d-c/f-w/made-up-swear-word. Even when you realize they’re f-w/d-c, sometimes we’re weak, we’re bored, we’re passive, we’re wishy washy. And thats ok. You’re not perfect. When we judge ourselves harshly we also tend to judge others harshly. As a result we dont give others benefit of the doubt, or cut them slack or take joy in them (I dont mean BGE or FWB, just the regular people in your life, at work, in the street). We assume perceived slights and hidden intent.
TBH I dont understand – FWB offered you FWB and you took it while hating yourself for it and going back for more. Now you’re hating yourself for it some more (in fact, you’ve now shifted the goalposts of your feeling like crap to include not only BGE loss but backwards rewriting perhaps your past and including FWB into your story of how awful you are).
You need like a Zen koan, a moment that breaks through your startlingly dreary outlook on yourself and shows you that yes yes you too are just a speck of dust, so go ahead and rejoice in that. You are now judging yourself for not feeling joy! You are using all your energy to find new ways to twist what happened to you into something negative about yourself.
I will tell you and I hope you find friends and family that will also; accept yourself, accept that you dont feel joy right now, accept that you fell for a f-w/d-c (thats f***wit and douche-canoe but you can make up your own!), accept that you are not perfect, accept that life is hard right now, accept that you made choices you are not proud of, accept accept accept it all. Then let it go. You still call him BGE, I’ve seen that on earlier posts also. Its like you need to hang on to that for some reason. You want your sorrow. You are not letting yourself be. Let it go.
[if you can; make a change, take a serious vacation or something that cuts through your routine.]
Suki, And Say Something
I agree totally with Suki,
(Say Something) I experienced what you are going through. My mind was like a tape recorder and it wouldn’t stop. Hell I couldn’t even string coherent sentences together. When we feel rejected and thus grieve it can set the stage for depression. I’m not trying to tell you your business but I can say that for me, I wasn’t able to stop the brain path that was repeating itself endlessly. (yes I lost hours at a time). I was struggling and suffering and getting no where. Sometimes getting help can make a MAJOR difference. I wished I had sooner. Heck maybe you already thought about it, and I’m sorry if I sound presumptuous. I’m just saying it helped in my experience. I still struggle but now I don’t have to contend with emotional meltdown stuff too. I do recognize that it can be easy for others to say “snap out of it” as my mother told me numerous times. But sometimes we need extra help along the way. (yeah my mom told me to stop dwelling and to snap out of it and move on and If I had a more positive attitude then I would be fine)… nice huh.
Wiser,
What you said is just BEAUTIFUL and it is LIFE.
You said: sometimes you can do everything right and it still doesn’t work out – the person doesn’t respond like you hope, the lover walks away, friends disappear, the business goes bust, the marriage falls apart… that’s not failure, that’s life. Most of the time you’ll never even know why – it remains unresolved and unresolvable.
That is what I finally had to accept. What happened to me is just life. I had to end the engagement when I found out he was cheating. HURT BAD. In one night it was just over. It has had a MAJOR impact on my life.
I have moved on the best way that I can ALONE. I plan trips and do little projects to shift my focus. You said some gold can be found in the wreckage. I have FOCUSED more on a real plan for my life. I have actually written it out. I am no longer on auto pilot. I have a golden master plan for my business and personal life. Sometimes I even enjoy the solitude. But I have accepted that life as I knew it will never be the same. Some days I just shake my head in disbelief.
But now I need to involve other people in my life. Being alone is not healthy. I accept that I will NEVER know why he was running around late at night (like a rat-lol) at a hotel meeting someone. I hope it brought him some happiness. Each day I find something to smile about and I know it gets better each day.
Wiser this was not my plan, but I don’t waste energy on this (other than nightmares-I can’t control). This site has become my way to communicate with others. I have been trying to meet new people. Hasn’t worked yet but it might. So, I realize that while I have put my little master plan down on paper -it all may not work out. So, I will improvise.
Thank you for writing this post to the best virtual friend I have had — Ms. Say Something.
MJ
Mj, you are such a badasse! Love everything you wrote in this comment to pieces. You go, girl!
Hey Why,
Thank you for your continued encouragement. I am trying!
I loved this thought you shared earlier:
They idolize you and they love this non-you image. With THIS they are indeed in love. But it’s their own self-fulfilling prophecy at play here: once you stay long enough with them to actually unfold, they feel let down or betrayed and fall out of “love”. They can love only a fantasy girl. That is what keeps them going from woman to woman.
WOW-interesting thought about the creeps looking for a fantasy girl. It would be so nice if we could put these types on a ship that sails so far out to sea they can’t come back. LOL. Right? There are a few others I would toss aboard for this trip to no where.
MJ
Say something,
Thanks for your no nonsense answer. Much appreciated. I am just dragging this puppy out too long. Would an accurate description be ’emotional masturbation’?
Last year when all this started I realized one of the reasons I liked his playing was because I used to like to play piano like that when I first started. I let it all go due to father and music issues.
I like how you clarified the music and emotion and performer ideas. Very helpful. I have already signed up at another church and thought I could come back to this one for recitals. I now realized it’s not a good idea. I’ve already joined the choir at the new church and will stay away from this one. I think it will finally sweep away all these annoying feelings I am having. My daughter would probably thank you too as she knows what’s going on.
It’s so hard to let go of my comfort with feeling distressed about this. Thanks
Mistea1,
ONG ’emotional masturbation’!! Good one. Of course the distress you feel is real. And now you’ve connected reasons for being drawn to this guy… Your love of playing piano, your father. I’m not sure where that leads, but you might know. Are you still playing? Back when I thought ‘he’ liked me, I sent him a card and wasted these words on him. I’d rather share them with you:
“Every single day, do something that makes your heart sing.” ~Marcia Wieber
Say Something,
Glad you liked that!
The Wieber quote was spot on too I liked it. Also the next thing I have to work on is the playing music thing. I use EFT for that.
After our talk I went to a church a friend recommended to me because their long time organist has just passed away. Very interesting experience. With a little practice I could do it. I’m not conventionally religious any more I just want to play beautiful music.
I see in other posts they are noting your need to express joy again. As I look back over my life I realized how little I have taken time to be joyful. I think this is found in the music for me. To even think I could express my joy and happiness in playing music, the most precious joy I can think of is what is holding me back. So for me to even recognise this is a big step in the right direction. I at least now know part of the problem. I restarted meditation back in January after a break of several years which is helping enormously as well as EFT (emotional freedom technique). With the happiness thing, if I found myself happy and then lost it, it might be too hard to bear? Something for us to work on perhaps. Best to you, I appreciate your help more than you know.
There are lots of other musicians in the world who are BETTER than this guy. Find them. You will still be enjoying music, and probably better performances, so widen your musical circle if you love it so much. Just drop this player from your catalogue.
Shano, right. I live in a large city that has a large music population. Once I realized what was going on I have been attending other music venues. I think he’s in the top 5 performers in the area though. So I will attend the performances of the other 4 and broaden my musical styles. In addition I need to start playing and singing myself. Thanks.
After many months apart and an amicable email exchange, my EUM and I agreed to platonic friendship and we crossed paths at a class on Monday.
I was excited to see him… until he started violating boundaries. He touched my stomach unexpectedly and without permission. He was telling me a story where someone did that to him and made him uncomfortable so he did it to me like a demonstration – I even said “oh you didn’t like him invading your personal space?” I was surprised but I shrugged it off.
Later, he reached over and rubbed my thigh during class. I was shocked and uncomfortable. He moved to another part of the room during the break, so he may have picked up on my discomfort. We didn’t interact the rest of class. I departed class by simply waving goodbye to him as I left the room.
I was furious. On Wednesday, I emailed him citing the behavior, that I felt shocked and uncomfortable. “It’s not OK for you to touch me like that. In the future, I ask that you respect my space.” He apologized, said he meant nothing by it and agreed to respect my space.
I feel free of this person and his confused feelings about me. These jerks have no idea how they come off and whatever story they are telling themselves, I want no part of it. Suck it and see… Yep, still sucks! lol
Michelle,
Sounds like he confirmed for you who he really iskglo
I did it. I unfriended him a few moments ago. I struggled with it a bit but I just did it and gosh, I feel better. I took a few minutes to really look at his page, take in what I would no longer have access to. I saw him treating others casually, just the way he treated me. I saw him clearly for who and what he is. I used to think I would keep him around on FB so he could see “how well” I am doing but that is giving him far more than he deserves. It’s been a week since I saw him at that class and I still don’t want him around me. And now he is gone.
It all happened the way NML says… you try to be friends, you have good intentions and optimism… they let you down, violate your boundaries… you have to cut it all, all of it. It’s a gift you give yourself.
If you’re struggling with whether to unfriend on FB – if it feels like the “final step,” it’s because it IS and that’s why you gotta take it.
Love and strength to you all. xoxo
Yep I think it is the lies I told MYSELF to maintain my illusion – that I really found so shocking and hard to uncover / face – the worse.
That he could do the really really dreadful things he has – weren’t in reality shocking – because the warnings were all there – loud and clear. The shock was in CHOOSING not to see them!!! – in favour of blind hope?! – that it wasn’t really happening to me and if I just kept going a bit longer… all would come good eventually.
Well it didn’t and I hurt myself profoundly by lying to myself ultimately. Three years on – having done a hell of alot of healing – I am not really dealing with him and his lies anymore – it is the profound disappointment at allowing the situation to happen in the first place (over and over again in my life) by choosing to turn a blind eye – that I struggle with – and when I am denying myself a true view now – its usually to stop myself facing this horrific disappointment in myself again – so I presume perhaps this is what he feels also – hense the story he is telling himself so as to be able walk away and carry on as if he did nothing unacceptable – just like I did to myself.
Oh, Oona. This is it right here. That’s where the pain is. What does it say about who I really am when there is such a large gap between who I want to be and who I have actually been?
Really good question thank you – never thought of it like that –
It says you are looking at it for real and you are a damn brave person and you will be able to halt the pointless destruction continuing and growing worse in the future and close that gap for real – it also says maybe we should focus at what we do have – rather then what we don’t and celebrate it.
Oona,
Yes, I’m wondering too if I am telling myself that it’s OK to keep exposing myself to this guy because he plays well. When I left the building even though I tried not to look at him I still had an uneasy feeling in the pit of my stomach. I enjoyed the listening alright enough. I thought maybe I can go and listen to his recitals as long as I don’t have any contact with him. There is probably only 4-5 recitals a year. My goal now is to take care of myself first. Am I lying to myself?
Do yourself a favour, dump the pretend cultured totty for real and find real men/women – who you are able to be in their presence fully – with no detrimental feelings in the pit of your stomach or any need to worm your way around, trying to get support for something pretty disgusting, by pretend evading questions given to help you – genuinely.
Am I getting boring enough now?
A tip – the instinct to listen to is NOT the one while you are listening and engaging with the fantasy of him.
Oona,
Ouch!! I hear you! 🙂
Sorry if it hurt you – it wasn’t what I intended – and I am really happy to read you being proactive about sorting it all out = awake. Good luck and keep in touch – especially when it works!!
Michelle, I would have dealt with the sexual harassment right then and there ie ” (name) get your perverted hands off me!” really loud and making sure to distance myself immediately if he doesn’t do so first. He was subtly sizing you up to see how easy he was going to get some…very creepy these types of males.
Yep Gina I agree this hand laying on people when unasked for, is definitely sizing up your reactions to them/control and power play and the creepiness is understanding that they are spinning you a line based on how you react to them not on genuine home grown feelings for you and they have a line to pull you in no matter what you say or do. All so they can manipulate you into getting their needs met – ie attention, ego, sexual kicks – regardless of how you truly feel about them. What true worthy person would ever be satisfied with that?
Gina, Oona – all amazing comment. Speaking from my experience – this is 200% true.
Once (or twice, or thrice) I confronted him doing that – he’d say “yes, this is unfair and maybe wrong” and then do the same shit in less than a week. They know what they are doing and they do NOT care how they come off. If I pressured him into why he kept doing it if he knew it was wrong, he’d twist it to tell me it was my fault and I led him on.
I also co-sign on Gina’s comment on making it known to the public next time he does anything like it. Not in a bitchy way but as an immediate reaction (exactly the way you’d react a stranger would violate your space) – these people thrive on us keeping their secrets for them.
Yep the public thing is important – ups the risk that they may actually be shamed by their behaviour – by others – as well as yourself.
Thanks Oona. It did feel like a power play and I am glad I emailed him to call him out on it. I felt better – and his response, while I don’t believe it comes from a sincere place, indicates that he knows he fucked up big time AND it sends the message: when I said “friends,” I meant it. We weren’t on the same page about what “relationship” meant and now, same deal with “friendship,” apparently. It reminded me of the post Natalie wrote about, when they come back around, this is an opportunity to do right by you. I definitely felt that – and I imagine he felt the change in me, even if he hasn’t changed a bit.
To the folks who suggested I should have called him out publicly: yeah sure, in hindsight, it was what I wished I’d have done too. But I didn’t. When this sort of thing happens, there’s nothing wrong with doing what you need to do to take care of yourself. I didn’t do anything wrong. I am proud of myself for continuing with the class, calm and grounded, despite what happened. I let myself get upset afterwards and then wrote the email. That’s how I handled it and that’s perfectly fine.
“To the folks who suggested I should have called him out publicly: yeah sure, in hindsight, it was what I wished I’d have done too. But I didn’t. When this sort of thing happens, there’s nothing wrong with doing what you need to do to take care of yourself. I didn’t do anything wrong. I am proud of myself for continuing with the class, calm and grounded, despite what happened. I let myself get upset afterwards and then wrote the email. That’s how I handled it and that’s perfectly fine.”
Amen! That’s awesome! Good for you!
Well done Michelle – handling it YOUR way – any way you can in the moment – IS more than acceptable – well done.
Thanks. I have a strong reaction when I describe an experience where someone violates my personal space and someone else responds with, “Well here’s what I would have done” or suggests what I “should” have done. People don’t really know what they “would” do in that situation – they weren’t there and they’re not me. His responsibility to keep his fucking hands to himself is the issue here, not my response.
Michelle, I am sorry you felt that my words sounded like it is what you should have done and what you have done already was somehow wrong or not enough. This was absolutely not my intent or idea. You are right, I am not you.
I think this is one of those easier said than done phenomenons. If you really like someone, you want to see the good in them. You want to believe them even though you know they are probably lying to you.
really? or is it that you want to be liked/loved by them so you don’t rock the boat – and pretend to yourself to believe them – because otherwise would probably guarantee that they didn’t like or love you?
Michelle- good for you not putting up with that behavior. Thats disrespectful to you in so many ways. Maybe hed like to have his nipple pinched during class and in front of others.
Soo his response was
he means nothing by it? Does he normally cop feels on people and not mean anything by it? Maybe he was thinking he’s such hot sh*t that you’ll feel grateful he groped you. Seems like a shit, especially doing it in a place where he thinks you can’t make a scene. Ugh…but it sounds like you put your foot down.
Thanks Freedme. Exactly – he wasn’t doing this to other people in the class. Not that that would have made it OK if he were. I didn’t buy the “I meant nothing by it” – if that were true, you wouldn’t need to explain it to me. (lol)
It’s just an attempt to get me to listen to him over my own instincts/boundaries. He learned it the hard way – it doesn’t matter what you “meant” by it. I don’t like it and that’s sufficient for me to tell you to stop.
It is difficult to heal your mind in a room full of emotionally challenged individuals. If I could be assured of being around all normal people for a month, I’d pay double to ensure my participation.
My mom used to force me sit at a table for hours and listen to her talk. She wouldn’t shut the fuck up. She went on and on…. These fireside nightmares would usually occur after another incident of poor parenting on her part. So the the long, boring, one- sided conversation was designed to justify her actions, and it went all over the place, searching to make sense out of nonsense, but it.was.all.Bullshit. In order to endure this abuse, I used to escape into my mind. She would yammer away, and I was ten thousand miles away. Yammer, yammer, yammer…; I’m not listening to you. It’s so automatic. I’m trying to stay focused on what you are saying, but it is damn hard.
@Patrice, yikes, that’s awful! Haunting, really.
The relationship was over when he said, “I’m sorry for my poor behavior. I take back the name calling. I know I have a bad temper. I know I have behaved badly. But, what the hell do you expect?”
Another relationship was over when he said, “Its over.” Wtf else is there to figure out? That action, and all of its consequences, in and of itself, is all the closure I need. I’m not going to make the futile climb to try and unring or psychobabble bullshit that bell, so I can stay happily in denial, down on the floor, looking up at him, panting by, or resting under, his boots. Ickkk! No way! I don’t want to be with somebody who doesn’t want me. No, I’m not interested in winning you over. I want a man on the chase, pursuing me like a man.
Also, my well-educated-continued-higher-and-higher-educated mother used to mispronounce words and insist she was prounoncing them correctly. She would make asinine statements, challenge experts without a glimmer of real thought or research. She’d claim to be an expert on the topic of discussion by virtue of obtaining higher education in unrelated fields. And if you challenged her, it was back to the fireside for another one-sided conversation, where she rebooted her ‘self-esteem.’ And she was paranoid, twisted. Her logic was screwed up. I spent a great deal of time arguing with her and trying to unravel her twists for her, trying to help a deluded mind back into reality.
I suppose that’s why I get triggered when I hear bullshit, and bullshit is everywhere you go..at home…work…on the train, and there I am once again back with my mom, struggling to maintain sanity by getting my mom to validate my reality, cut the bullshit, or at least, please shut the fuck up. But they aren’t my mom.
This comment makes me really sad. I feel really bad my grand-mom f-ked up my mom, f-ked me up, and someone f–ked up someone prior…. But, the feeling will pass, and I still have to take responsibility for keeping my mind functioning properly, so no, I’m not going to enable anybody’s bullshit. Given a choice between someone trying to pet me on my head with their “I like you. I approve of you. I accept you.” and my sanity, you can be damn sure I will be standing all by myself, outcast, and doing fine, one step closer to a real sense of Self.
@Patrice: all of what you write has happened to me too, on my father’s side; one note though, if I may: one is/feels “outcast” only with respect to the type of people you describe, i.e. people who like to heavily bullshit themselves. Once you ‘let go’ of them (read: grieve their loss – no trivial matter) you won’t even feel outcast any more and in all likelihood will spot and build relationships with people like you. Best, V.
@ V,
Thank you for your comment. I understand what you are saying.
Patrice and V,
Yes, I had a problem with my father too. He would ask me “What do you want?” If it didn’t agree with what my father wanted he would tell me I didn’t know what I wanted. Very confusing for a kid trying to figure out how to communicate with the grown up world.
@Mistea1: Yes, best to leave them to their grown up world and go look for greener pastures.
So while we’re at it, I’ve read a bit of your story. Isn’t that interesting that 3 years ago I met this organist with whom I was obsessed until a few months ago. God was I obsessed with this guy… When he played (in church) I really felt the divine in me (hope these are the right words, wouldn’t want any sexual innuendos there). So anyway to make a long story short, I went NC, and in the time I took to find out what this ‘love’ was really pointing towards, surprise surprise I realised that I wanted to play like him myself. *I* wanted to do that. *I* wanted to play, I wanted to be the musician he was. So, there you go. Best, V.
V,
Exactly. I used to play like he did when I was in high school. I completely forgot about this until I heard him play last year. Since then I am taking steps to start playing again. I’m looking forward to playing again. I’ve even found a church where the elderly organist has passed and there might be an opportunity for me there. Wish me luck!!
sounds like my mum – especially the expert thing!! – mine was apparently a psychologist – as in her own daughter’s psychologist!??? and of course knew everything. She took one course in psychology and was never a clinical psychologist – in fact she couldn’t get on the course because her grades weren’t enough – which she conveniently forgets.
Nothing like an amateur psychologist in the family – boosting their ego on every apparent problem, you have.
And yep never heard an apology from her in my life. And regular forgetfulness or problems with her memory – that she denies completely of course. I call it goal shifting.
I have nothing to do with her anymore and boy do I feel so much better.
Patrice
I can understand your issue with your mum, both my parents are like that, and feel they know it all, my mum has an education of grade 4 and my dad grade 8. They are absolutely uneducated, yet did well for themselves material wise. Un flippen believable, and I have to remind myself of this, these people are uneducated!!
Say Something,
This is an article that I read that I think speaks to your struggle. You are looking for the WHY? of what you had to deal with. You will work through this at your own PACE.
Here is your challenge:
to thrive, we must find within ourselves a way to ascribe meaning to the events and discover a new purpose to drive our existence.
The article describes one of the challenges/phases as follows:
Loss and grief can challenge these basic assumptions and make us question everything we thought we knew. We’re flooded with doubts and questions, the simplest and most compelling of which is often simply—why? Our challenge is to find ways of making sense of what happened and adjusting our belief systems accordingly. And to thrive, we must find within ourselves a way to ascribe meaning to the events and discover a new purpose to drive our existence.
Recovering from grief and loss takes time but the best way to treat our psychological injuries is to consider the five challenges we face and at our own pace, within our own time frames, confront and overcome them one by one.
If you want to read the full article to see the challenges/phases you will experience after loss it is here.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-squeaky-wheel/201404/the-5-psychological-challenges-loss-and-grief
Yes, Natalie, I agree. Self-deception is tricky. I can’t always see it. I caught myself fantasising about my ex,and I was like, “What are you doing?” then I caught myself fantasising about something else. I’m going to have work on the fantasy. I’m reading some books on mindfulness, and I’m keeping a journal. Getting a handle on the fantasy is going to be one of my biggest challenges, but I believe it will benefit me in so many ways. So it’s onward.
I am visiting my parents who live in another city.
I asked my father if he would like to help me financially with my masters degree since he has helped my younger siblings buy their homes and since it doesn’t look like I am going to do that. well, he flat out refused to help with anything telling me I should be independent and that he never asked for anything from his parents.
This message was always mixed in with Get married and be taken care of by a man! Since I failed to do this, I truly feel his hatred towards me.
I told him I never thought of asking but since he’s helped my siblings, I thought he would want to be fair and help me. He started being nasty, telling me there is no fairness and then telling me I’m too old to get a masters anyways. I am older so this confuses me and I think, maybe I shouldn’t invest in a MA. Because of my age I can easily be discouraged.
He is so mean and my mother just sides with him and is mean herself. I was so upset because I can see how this cruelty has set me up to attract assholes and forget about trust, how can I trust anyone if I couldn’t even trust the people that were supposed to take care of me.
I have worked on myself a lot and every time I see them (maybe twice a year) I work through more stuff, I see the reality clearer. It is nasty and of course there are some nice times mixed in but with my resentment about the unfairness, it is less possible for me to see the good.
The fact that I have been so belittled and bullied my whole life is mind boggling, but it is my reality. This happened and it has made me strong but not strong enough yet to move forward in my life. I feel I need to really face this, I am on my own, nobody is coming in to save me. I have family that don’t have any compassion, in fact loath it. I have decided to let it go and even told my father this, he didn’t bat an eye, it feels to me that he doesn’t give a damn for my well being. I am alone in this as I always have been.
The problem is I think I have waited and still wait for someone to save me. Then I ask myself, how can I hope to attract a decent guy when my father is so hateful? Mother not much better. I don’t want to lose hope, but hope seems to keep me stuck too.
Honestly, they don’t censor anything they say, insults and put downs come out effortlessly from them, but never compliments or encouragement, except the ‘Do it on your own, I did.” spoken with a very nasty tone.
I have been doing it on my own, maybe I don’t have a fancy home like they do, but whatever I have I sustain on my own. I want to upgrade my life style, but I don’t know how except to find a man who will help me do that. Then, I’m back at square one. and I feel really embarrassed to be still talking about my parents at this age.
Why do I keep visiting? I do as little as possible, and I do it to work through it emotionally, I get stronger all the time and this time I realized how painful it is for me to hate, so I dropped it and choose love for myself. Not sure what to feel toward my father, the inner child loves him, but the rest of me does not. He was a loving father while I was a young child, I was daddy’s little girl and that all changed when I started becoming a woman.
Anyways, the reason I am upset right now is that I was supposed to leave yesterday so I could fulfill a community commitment, but my mother talked me into staying longer and because of the physical comfort of their home I chose to stay.
I see how much I sell my emotional well being for creature comforts. I have done this with men I dated too, for example, I won’t date a guy who isn’t a home owner or at the very least financially secure and often they were controlling or ended up being narcs like my dad.
The financially unstable ones were flaky and too risky to date because I would feel unsafe. I have a high need for security and although I trust myself to provide for me, I have not been able to, or maybe unwilling to try to somehow create the lifestyle I wish to have. It’s like that is out of my hands and must come from a man. This keeps me stuck!
Anyways, I still don’t know what I’m going to do about this action wise, but I know I will analyze it to death. The saddest thing for me is how will I learn to trust men? I am trying to let it go and I know that part of that is to face, really face that this is who he was, this is the father I have. Sometimes I think my inner child has another fantasy going on. I’m working on re-educating her.
For example, when I was little I remember we had a cat I loved and when she had a littler he took her and the kittens and threw them in the forest..and I was sitting in the back seat of the car watching this. I don’t remember having any emotion at all. I think I learned that there is no point to loving something, it will be taken away from you. I think he also did this with some pet rabbits I had too, but I don’t remember.
I often wonder if I should just disown them completely and I tried, but haven’t been able to do that and when I have, I didn’t notice a big difference, plus my mother has made it near impossible because she will not let go, I think my father would be fine with it.
Have any of you worked through similar family issues and gotten to the other side, I’d like to hear how, I’m too old to stay stuck. I’m clearing my way through but it’s taking a long time.
@whatever. I don’t know where to start I am so shocked by what I read.
“For example, when I was little I remember we had a cat I loved and when she had a littler he took her and the kittens and threw them in the forest..and I was sitting in the back seat of the car watching this. I don’t remember having any emotion at all. I think I learned that there is no point to loving something, it will be taken away from you. I think he also did this with some pet rabbits I had too, but I don’t remember.”
This is sadistic behaviour. I’m not sure that it is compatible with “He was a loving father while I was a young child”.
I don’t know what else to say… a big virtual hug to you, V.
I asked my mom about this and she said that our cat wasn’t thrown out, only the kittens, maybe so, and that’s even more cruel when you think about it. I remember it as the cat and the whole lot were thrown out. I haven’t asked my father because basically I had enough drama with him and he with me on this visit. He is a narc so any remorse he ever feels I feel too, so it’s almost like in some ways I feel guilty afterwards, all unspoken. I know this goes back to childhood. Believe it or not, I did love him very much as a child, I never remember loving my mother. There you have it.
of course my mother protects my dad so I don’t know if this is accurate either. Strange thing about memory. if I recall he got sick of our cat having a litter and in his anger simply got rid of her and the whole lot.
He also made my mother have a couple abortions, or maybe she did too, but she seems to just follow along with him, he is definitely the bass even down to home décor and he has no taste compared to my mother.
@whatever: I just read your answer, I have to pause for a moment before replying.
God, I don’t think I’ve ever felt so bad about anybody else’s story yet.
Here’s my take on it. Please keep in mind that I am nobody, I am reinterpreting what I read of your story through my own personal filter, which might distort things even though I have the best of intentions.
You know and understand everything already, it looks like you’re processing the emotions now, and I would think that you’re in some crucial stage of the process.
The associations you make are correct (obviously): “if I recall he got sick of our cat having a litter and in his anger simply got rid of her and the whole lot” leads to ” He also made my mother have a couple abortions, or maybe she did too”. This is a huge link and has enormous implications, like (randomly): your father didn’t want to have children, your father harboured a desire to abandon his children and wife too if she procreated, your father is sending you the message that if you marry and have children he will abandon you/you will be abandoned by your husband, your father is resentful of you not marrying and having children because it looks to him like you were spared the difficult destiny he himself had to endure.
It looks like your mother is completely dependent on him and therefore completely absent mentally from (your) life. It might be that she had considered aborting you or that she has aborted other children, whatever the case a child feels it when her life is literally in her parents’ hands and it makes for a toxic environment in which to grow up.
Curious the fact that your mother remembers the story like mother-cat was saved and only the little ones were abandoned (is this how she sees her family?) while you remember all of them being abandoned.
I am not shocked to read that you didn’t feel love towards your mother.
I am not surprised to read that you loved your father: there must have been moments of tenderness with him which saved you from the total indifference of your mother (crumbs into loaves mindset onset?). The love I was doubting in the post above was Not yours, but your father’s: I have no doubt whatsoever that you did love him.
It looks like you are identified very much with your father, and I don’t know the root reason or the how of it, but it might be the last stage of the process being able to separate yourself from him.
When one is dismantling their illusions, it feels like they had a family before and now they don’t: but this is not true. Some part of you knows how utterly alone and abandoned (or abused) you were as a child. Trust yourself and you’ll find the way out.
I also want to add that the horrible (but not as uncommon as one might think) things I say are not to hurt you, but to make it easier to admit it to yourself what is true, *IF* any of what I suggested is.
Also, for me to say them, is because I went through variations of the same thing myself (how else could I know), and I got throught that and I am sure you will too, if that is what’s really best for you.
Best wishes, V.
@V
Thank you for your post. You hit a lot of truths. I especially lit up when you said
‘your father is sending you the message that if you marry and have children he will abandon you/you will be abandoned by your husband, your father is resentful of you not marrying and having children because it looks to him like you were spared the difficult destiny he himself had to endure.’
I’m past the child bearing years, but I was afraid of that, not the kid part, just the abandonment and still am.
However, the other part of my father being resentful of my not marrying…that’s the one that hit me most. I didn’t think of it this way and yes, he has often complained about his life being tied down with kids. My brother also hasn’t married.
He did want kids though, they had 3 and aborted 2 as far as I know. I am pretty damn sure my mom thought of getting rid of me, they were only dating for 3 months before I, the accident, happened. I have felt huge resentment from my mother all my life and my father ever since I became a tween.
He can’t stand my free life style. He even said, just last week, that he wanted to burn my hammock because I was enjoying myself in it. Mom said he was joking, but I don’t think so. My parents are both workaholics and drive themselves to the ground with work around their house, my mom especially.
I rebelled and I guess have done the opposite of most of what he wanted for me, which is too bad, because I want those things too, but must still be trapped in the dysfunction to disentangle myself which is what i think I do a little more every time I visit. I need to keep plugging away at it, I hate repeating this same cycle every time I see them.
ALso, now that he has made it clear to me that he won’t help me (even though my mother says he will, which is her way to keep me ensnared)and he doesn’t give a damn about fairness, I don’t want to be around that unethical environment, don’t know if unethical is the right word, I just can’t be comfortable around a bunch of people who won’t play fair, unfortunately this includes my siblings too.
Oh, to add light to your comment, maybe he doesn’t think it’s fair that I don’t slave away at a family and work like he does, so that might have something to do with it. In fact, he has mentioned this in different words, so I think it does.
As for him not ever loving me, well you could be right, I think he did in his way, but |I’m sure there were just as many times he didn’t, especially if I disobeyed him. We were spanked a lot too.
Anyway, thank you for your insightful comments. It’s always good to see things from another’s perspective. Blessings.
@Whatever, I am really sorry for this. Your parents sound like shits, but unfortunately that is probably all they are capable of. Mine were terrible parents. My father was not around my entire childhood and my mother took off when I was 11. I was raised by my grandmother. Although I didn’t see deliberate cruelty like you did with your dad throwing out your cat (horrible!!!) there was a lot of irresponsibility. My mom gave away a dog I loved enormously because he would run after people and bite their heels (he was never trained). She didn’t even discuss this with me, I came home one day and she was gone. They had put her in a shelter and I would get off at the bus which was miles from my house to visit her and then walk miles home. I don’t even know what happened to her. Recently, my mom was bitching that my sister was going to give up her dog and how horrible that was, and I threw this right in her face. I told her exactly how it made me feel. She basically got a put-upon look on her face and said nothing. It’s hard for me to completely write her off since she had a stroke and is paralyzed now and I’m the only one who will help her out at all. But basically I do the minimum. I’ve given up the idea that if I try hard enough or am good enough, she will be happy or become someone I can admire. She had a really shitty relationship with her father (who was cruel to animals too) and I think it messed her up good. Not excusing her, but. Anyway, I guess what I’ve done with both of them is tried to accept them for who they are, quit wishing they would have been better parents (too late for that) and I see them/converse with them when and if I feel like it and not out of some sense of guilt or obligation. I always say to myself “When did she ever feel obligated to you? Never!” So if she calls and I don’t feel like calling back, I don’t. I used to feel horribly guilty if I didn’t jump and call her back right away. A child will always try to make a parent happy for some odd reason — I guess our survival depends on it. I also call them on their shit. My father recently went into apologetic mode and was apologizing for his behavior when I was a kid, and I said I accepted his apology but I also told him EXACTLY how it made me feel and how it has impacted my relationships as an adult — for example, I’m pretty certain I do not have children because in my world, parents always left their kids. I’ve been lucky in that he has taken responsibility for his actions and apologized for them. My mom not so much, but she does what she can, I guess. Which isn’t much. I also try to concentrate on what not having parents has done for me in a positive way, for example, I am not flaky like most of the people I know, I am very responsible, and this is because I had to take care of myself at a very young age. This has helped me out in my career, employers really appreciate this quality. It’s a process and I don’t think there will be a day when you wake up and say “Ah, I’m over it completely, I forgive and love them both!” but it can become much less agonizing. I would let your dad know what his cat tossing (something he himself probably learned as a kid) did to you, just say it calmly and forthrightly and even if he doesn’t apologize, believe me, he’s thinking about it. And then forget the idea that they or anyone else will come along and “save” you. Look to people who can support you emotionally (like us here!) and remember that men are just human, with all the foibles and weaknesses humans have, and it’s a lot to ask anyone of them to “save” you either emotionally or financially. Would you want that burden? Best of luck to you, we’re all in the same boat and we’ll paddle together!
Thanks Diane!
Whatever, I am sorry to say that but it seems like you are ALREADY being independent since you’ve decided what’s best for you (education) regardless of the condemnation and your father sounds like he feels by either your life goals or something similar. He is also being cruel. I obviously don’t know your family dynamics but if a close friend told me your story, I’d have told her to disengage.
*like he feels THREATENED by either your life goals or something similar.
@Why, I am independent and I never expected much from him until my siblings did, which has made me resent them too. I just want to let go of the whole dang thing. I disengage as much as I can.
I do believe in working through family of origin stuff and I guess I am doing that, just never thought it would come at such a high cost (no family of my own and less success than I thought I’d have or probably would have if they didn’t exist because I would have done these bigger things like a buy a home on my own), but it has and I have paid it.
I’ve come to realize fairness doesn’t mean a thing to a narc, they are into survival of the fittest mentality, he basically has always blamed me for not getting married, as if I did it on purpose. He has never shown an ounce of compassion, like he just can’t tolerate such failure. sad, put hey, I’ve developed a lot of compassion and have grown a lot internally.
and that resentment has lasted for decades, so that’s why I fell behind, such a waste of time it was, but obviously my purpose in this lifetime.
Hi Whatever… I’m so sorry. It sucks that what should have been a moment of pride and celebration for your father/parents got derailed by their double standards. I totally get why you would feel entitled to their support, given what they’ve done for your siblings. It is hard to stand up to people like our parents when they treat us differently and imply our goals are less worthy. It’s not unreasonable to want people who are supposed to be our parents to feel joyful with us when we decide to go for a scary/exciting goal like grad school.
My father could not support me financially (my mother bankrupted him through divorce) but he helped me any way he could, cheered me on start to finish. We’re very close. My mother was her usual self – told me this was a bad idea but she sure bragged when I became Dr. Unfair? Yes. Hurtful? Sure. Surprising? Oh no. I stopped asking for her support. I stopped talking to her altogether. I supported myself through scholarships and loans. When I finished, I found out she tells people she paid for my doctorate. I don’t care. I know the truth. I did it with many strikes against me and it makes the victory even sweeter. I make twice what she does and I can pay my loans back just fine. Go for it and fuck them if they can’t be thrilled for you. There are plenty of parents who *wish* their children would pursue an education. Your values are different from your parents and they probably resent you for being the risktaker they never were. Too bad; their loss.
@Whatever;
I hear so many emotions in your post and I can identify with some of it. My family has fortunately been very fair between siblings but I think my mum was narcissistic and as you said if she felt regret (or anything at all), she needed everyone around her to feel it. So her happiness – you had to be ‘happy’ if she was happy. To not be happy in the face of her often very fake happiness, that was like cruelty to her – she would really play the guilt card, and almost shame you for not playing along with her happy-happy scene. In many ways we have made our peace over time.
But I hear you; I also wonder if I am just damaged now, just incapable of trusting, of loving and being loved, of trusting myself, of having emotions, of feeling anything. I went through years where no one noticed me, and if they did it was to tell me I was wrong, my emotions were wrong. I stopped being able to trust my own emotions. As a result I was often ‘betrayed’ by friends, or bfs, because I couldnt tell the difference. People used me and took me for a ride and I couldnt protect myself.
I would suggest another thing to you; you mention that you are doing okay for yourself, but it seems that your parents have more money. I think you should reconsider or work through your feelings about money. We dont realize how much our feelings about money hem us in, and also come from our family. If money is tied up with self-worth for you then not having it will affect you. The fact that you are not wealthy might also be your way to be more ‘real’ and authentic and step away from what you see as the empty lifestyle of your family. I dont know how much you make compared to your parents or your siblings (they’re part of this story since as you said you feel they were supported with money and you werent). But its important to figure out your relationship to material goods and to take away the guilt and need around money. This might free you from dependence on your parents, and also from seeking material stuff in relationships.
[I am also thinking through my relationship to money; I love my job and I will never make much money. It is okay with me. This is my choice, I chose a career where you dont make much money. And I also wish someone would take care of me – being single means I dont split any bills. So I think I need to rethink my relation to money so that I can be happy with what I have which is enough for my needs, and which totally makes sense with respect to my job.
@ Suki
My parents have a lot more money. They raised us to believe that making money was very important, they are immigrants and this was their mentality, and ingrained in me for sure. Thankfully, I am good with money and can get by on my own. But, I have no where near the lifestyle that my folks do, or that I want as well. However, as much as I value security, I also value creativity and connection.
I do judge men on their ability to make money. When I dated a few men who were in debt, and in my opinion irresponsible with money, it was hard to tolerate, very hard. I have a high need for security and I don’t want to deny myself that, relationships are stressful enough without having to worry about money.
I also love my job and often am in between contracts, which my father cannot understand, in his mind, you take any job just to make money. He doesn’t understand the concept of loving what you do. Thankfully I do, and you too! So, that’s one way I’ve moved beyond their beliefs, my sibling also have jobs they don’t like.
michelle
my parents believed in education, at appropriate times in life, not when you’re older. I’m on my own with this one and I need to believe it will help, I know I love higher learning, so even if that’s the only reason…but practicality does win out, anyways, it will help with my career as well. They don’t think it’s practical. and I can do it on my own, just wanted to give them the opportunity to even out the playing field but they don’t want to.
You cannot move around No Contact or completely stopping all communication. You cannot jump over this step.
Very often we make excuses for someone else’s shitty excuses (and it seems like you did too) because we do NOT value OURSELVES. We have no boundaries. We invest into shitty people after they have shown us time and time again they want to continue to be shitty because we fear that’s the best we can get. We do not believe we deserve to be treated better: with kindness, genuine interest, commitment and effort. And thus we do not treat OURSELVES with kindness, genuine interest, commitment (to our needs and wants) and apply no effort to get to a better place. Thus we hang out with people who mirror those ideas about ourselves right back to us.
By disengaging you show kindness to your own self and stop the pain so you can finally hear your own voice underneath it all. Once you get to the point where you value yourself and your judgement above all, you will then be able to tell when person is dishonest with you and is wasting your time. It does not mean EUMs or ACs will stop trying to pull one on you, no. But the moment you find out they were dishonest with you – you’ll bail out immediately. You’ll feel “Too bad you are a dishonest person. You are not the kind of person I want in my life. Bye!”. And you will not tell them this, just think to yourself. You will not write them angry emails or talk and talk and talk and tell them how being dishonesty is bad hoping they’ll understand and combust into a new person. No. You see them fk up, you make conclusions (YOUR conclusions, that they don’t need to validate) and move on.
But before all of that – you go total NC.
I’ve been visiting BG for a few months and it’s time to just put it all out there and hope that maybe some of you will respond and help. I am 2 weeks NC with a EUM who I have allowed to ruin my life, self esteem and dignity. Note I am taking responsibility for it. I was at the end of a bad marriage of 18 years and this was a person I knew through a hobby. I should have realized he was a dodgy character as he was talking to another married friend of mine before he decided to friend me on Facebook. One thing lead to another and I fell for him. I had to work so hard to prove what kind of person I was to him and he was very jealous of any men in my past, but oddly not my soon to be ex-husband. Especially a very young man who had been sweet on me who was in our hobby. Things came to a head when he told me that the mother of his 18 month old son (who he had told me from the start was just like a roommate) ended up pregnant again. Most people think it was to trap him and make him grow up (he’s a 40 year old man who is like a perpetual frat boy, plays in a band and has a construction job where he’s never been promoted in 16 years) and is always in trouble for his attitude. He is a binge drinker, says horrible things when drunk and even backed into a vehicle once and never even left a note. He has a reputation as a ‘player’ but it either makes him laugh or he gets angry and says everyone is out to get him. Low and behold I fell pregnant as well a few months later. An accident as I am 42 years old but blinded to this guy who would not even use protection. He talked me into having an abortion. I have regretted it to this day while he stood by his girlfriend so he said he could be there when the child was born and so it had his name. He told me that once the baby was a few months old he would leave. He was adamant. Well the day the second child was born it all blew up and he got very ugly to me and I did the wrong thing and took revenge by outing him to her and her family and his mom. I should have walked away with dignity but I suffered mentally so badly with the abortion and all he told me when I lost our child is “sorry I can’t do more for you, I can’t call you because she is home.” We did not talk for 2 months, he disappeared and then he came back on Facebook and started poking around and then it started back up again. I only asked him one thing and that was to leave me alone if he was not going to do the right thing and leave, I didn’t need to promises and heartbreak. He had proposed to her on xmas because he said “everyone hated him” and that if I was gone that he would just stay there with her and his children, but that supposedly there were no plans for a wedding. Well low and behold he gets caught out within 2 weeks when she looks at his phone. He was totally into me the first few weeks and it was like a dream. Then rapidly it just went back to the way it was. Before the big break up in November it was just a bunch of future faking and that I was his soul mate and he could not live without me. Then the same for a while when he came back and I really thought that this time there was going to be a future for us and then it all came crashing down in my face. He told me by end of June we would be living together and when it came push to shove he finally said he was comfortable where he was and that he could not leave his boys. But he was still conflicted and kept me hanging on for another week or so. And then could still not make any time for me but could go to a baseball game with his friends and get drunk and then get angry when I sent him a text. So I finally just didn’t respond to texts and he did not either. I cannot count the number of times that he cancelled plans that he made or made me come to something when no one else was there and then flirted with another woman and then tried to make me seem crazy. He told everyone in his family I was crazy to cover his butt and then decided he wanted me back when trying to play the role of ‘good dad and boyfriend’ was too hard. No one is ever surprised by finding out what he has done but they are just like “Oh well, that’s T**”……I think in reading here I wanted a return on my investment. I allowed myself to gamble everything on him and the only real hook was that we had great sexual chemistry after I had been with someone for 18 years who said I was frigid and there was something wrong with me. WHY am I still hooked on this guy who has treated me so very badly. I really hope there is someone here who can talk to me as I am desperate. I’m now 43, a professional out on my own and I have no confidence or trust in any man. Thank you.
Anne, I am so sorry for your loss. I wish I could give you a hug.
This man is toxic and he is poisoning your life. He is garbage and has no integrity. You need not to just go full NC with him (please don’t bother telling him) but you need to SAVE yourself. This has become a matter of life and death for you. You are destroying yourself. Both physically and mentally.
Is there any councillor in your area whom you could talk to? It does not have to be about the relationship if you don’t feel like sharing. But the loss of your child and the loss of the future you imagined with that man.
I used this word only once on this website before so I am not saying this lightly – but this man you have described is absolute garbage. He has no integrity. Can you imagine what kind of example you’d have set to your child? What could he teach about being a man? And what would he teach about how to treat a woman?
I feel sorry for his children he has with his gf and her as well.
You’ve dodged a bullet in a way. Now please get out. You hold the keys to your cage and the door is not even locked.
It is so much better outside, I promise you that.
You have made the first right step, you are not powerless – you found BR, you wrote that comment, you asked for help. Give yourself some credit. Go go go towards the light. Protect your own light. Be with people who want to be enhance your light, not dim it. BR is one of those safe places. We are here for you. Keep reading NML’s posts.
Hugs to you.
@Anne: Anne it takes a little bit of time to get out of the hole you are in. Take it one step at a time and breathe in the meantime.
It’s good that you have no trust in men right now, if the men in question are the guy you describe and your ex-husband (and I presume your father or father-figure). So please stop trusting the assclown you’re engaged with right now (sorry, eum is too bland a term for this man).
‘Desperate’ is worrying: as I understand it desperation is a mixture of fear + anger + pain and it makes for a dangerous explosive. If you could make some room to let yourself feel these feelings, you could take some pressure off, and in a second moment decide on which to act. You can do this by going NC, even if it might fail at the beginning.
Just start doing these small steps and keep reading on here, and, if you can afford it and you think it can help you, maybe see a counsellor.
Best wishes for you, V.
@Anne, I have said this before, but please read “Men Who Can’t Love” it explains these types of guys to a T! You will understand SO much more after you read it and see how there is nothing you can do for these guys other than try to suss them out before they hook you in. Also read all of Natalie’s blogs and books, of course. And when you get weak and want to make contact, read this board. Good luck! There IS a light at the end of the tunnel, trust me! I got pregnant by my EUM too (also in my 40s) but luckily had a miscarriage.
Anne, this is all good advice. You also need to understand yourself. Understanding him doesnt get very far; he’s a loser, not much more to say really.
What makes you hooked to him? What are you hoping for? I can’t imagine its fun to be with someone that ignores you, has another gf (!) and kids already so its not like he has time for you. So you’re not in it for fun. You’re not in for companionship or love or togetherness or a future. So what are you in it for? What is driving you? Do you not want to ‘lose’? There is a sense that you are angry that he didn’t want children with you but did with someone else. You need NC for a number of reasons; you need time to grieve your divorce, your abortion, and to understand yourself.
MOre important perhaps than understanding yourself is to figure out what you want going forward so that you have boundaries against such f***wits and can enforce them properly in the future. E.g. a guy with no stable job that is an alcoholic and has a girlfriend and two toddlers – any single one of those features of him is a deal-breaker. So having boundaries will prevent you from getting together with another totally inadequate person.
[understanding oneself is important I think but sometimes we do things for no reason at all, or we become passive and let others make the choices etc. Its not always that clear why we do what we do. BUT it should be clear when you’re unhappy that something has to change; and to understand how you make those changes. In fact such a process will help you also in case you want to break NC; if you know what you want, then breaking NC won’t matter. You’ll break it, the guy will behave badly as usual, and you’ll know that thats not okay with you and you’ll walk away. Basically minor slip-ups won’t create too much damage if you’ve set out your boundaries, the things you will and won’t do. You have power. You have confidence. You can make your life what you will. You will also make mistakes all the time. All you can do is strive to have a life where you are honest with yourself and with others – a good read from Natalie’s post.]
Dear Anne.. so sorry to hear what you are going through but I can relate. My ex of 3 years (on and off) and I had great sexual chemistry. But he too is 40 (41 later this month) and didn’t want to grow up (going to bars, watching sports with his boys). And always said nasty things when he drank.. and always blamed me for being crazy when I was asking him something or I’m being too demanding. These men take a piece of our soul the longer you try to understand, forgive or stay with them.
Trust me, and to protect your sanity and heart, let him go now.. cut your loses.. He is not going to change, he is toxic and could do real damage to you mentally. I’m still trying to move forward but I’m so sad that I allowed a man to treat like this for years. People think of me as a strong, positive, independent person and he made me feel so little..
I’m trying to stay positive and move forward but I’ve hard dark thoughts and although I know if I give in, the people I hurt most are those who actually love and care for me.. but sometimes I don’t want to be strong, positive and just want to make him hurt if I was no longer on this earth. I just try to distract myself and be positive.. one day at a time and BR helps knowing I’m not alone…
I’m also reluctant to believe there are any good men but we have to have hope.. we deserve a good man.. we all do.
Let’s all stay strong for one day finding happiness with or without a man.. xoxo
Sammi:
I know those dark thoughts all too well.
Don’t give in either. I don’t know you but I’m thinking of you.
Anne,
I am very sorry for your loss.
I experienced the same loss over 1,5 years ago. I will regret the decision until the day I die. The pain comes and goes. Sometimes it is silent, but I know it’s in the background. Sometimes it is tearing me apart. Only my Faith in God that I came to as the result of my mistake, keeps me hopeful and helps me forgiving myself. (I will try not to bring up theology here to stay neutral, but I might resurface the subject due to Anne’s situation. Apologies in advance if I hurt anyone in anyway by my occasional statements). I am learning to forgive myself and learning to live with the pain. This is the price that we and other women pay for the decision. Quiet suffering and grieving. For most of us, it was the best decision we could make at the time. Yes, the men pressured us, but ultimately, I hold myself responsible. The ex pressured and talked me into doing it as well. Had he been even a tiny bit supportive, I would have not done it back then. Even if he had said he would leave me but help and support financially and be responsible and not disappear, without having to move in or marry. I am a single mom and without any family in the country where I live, I knew I could not handle it on my own. Of course, now, I am confident I would have managed. But that was then, and now I am who I am now . . . Things have changed. So, yes, I recognize the lies and deception. The person I knew told me that I would never see him again if I keep the baby. If I didn’t keep the baby, we would be together and he would like to think of a family and a baby a bit later, a year or two later. He was the most supportive and caring and a “real boyfriend” for the first time in our almost a year relationship back then. The transformation was magical. I was shocked by his “caring” treatment. I couldn’t believe we saw each other every evening now instead of a Saturday night only. He said he felt we finally became so close because of this difficult experience and he finally felt comfortable and he would stay by my side and support me all the way and won’t leave me. All these words were coming out of a man, who was an EU and a commitment-phobe. I was devastated, scared, and my gut screamed (just like it did in the beginning when we were dating) to not trust him. Yet I hoped that he might be really having a change in his heart because of the situation. Actually I don’t think I could process much during that stressful week when I changed my mind 100 times a day for 5 days. Even in the abortion clinic I almost changed my mind. He cried that I would destroy his life and I would never see him in my life. I finally made a decision not because I was scared I would never see him. I was scared that I couldn’t handle being a double single mom with no social and family support whatsoever. I also had different values at the time. I was not spiritual. I was an agnostic in fact. I made decisions based on the set of values I had back then.
After about 1,5 month he broke up with me. I had started feeling his coldness and distance again and asked what’s happening and if we are together and going in the same direction. I told him to make up his mind in which direction we are moving and that I couldn’t handle the ambiguity anymore. And I got my answer. Had I not asked, this could have stretched out maybe for few months more. Or a year who knows.
Believe it or not, but I was excusing his behavior and actions for at least first 9-12 months after the breakup. I blamed myself and remembered all the good stuff (whatever that was, sexual chemistry is one of them, I am repelled to think of it now). He was on the pedestal for up to a year after the breakup. I couldn’t see straight, couldn’t think clearly. Only truly recently in the last few months, has the clarity emerged and I am starting seeing for who he was. And for who I was as well. I don’t hate him and am learning to forgive him, but thinking of him brings me a lot of pain. I found myself crying last week because of some triggers. I just start sobbing all of sudden. Having read a lot on grief I recognize the symptoms. I know they will pass and I will have fine, stable and even days and weeks. I let myself feel all the pain with no restrain and let it pass through me while being conscious of the process and taking care of me, my heart, and my mind.
How long ago did the loss of your baby happen? Please find a counselor if you can afford it. Find someone who specializes in grief. If you are a believer, talk to a priest, whom you can trust. Also, there is a lot of helpful information online and support for women.
About the guy you were with: I don’t even have much to say because there are no words even to say except that you need to completely and permanently isolate yourself from his contact in order to heal and move forward with your life. He is just unbelievable. You fell prey because you were vulnerable and your self-esteem was already fragile by the end of your marriage. The most important thing you can do RIGHT NOW is to protect yourself from him. Seek counseling and/or spiritual support and guidance. Grieve and heal. This is very hard and time might dull the pain somewhat, but I think we need to prepare it will always be there on some level and I am learning to live with it.
Hugs and all the virtual support. I know all the pain you are feeling. You are not alone. I hope my experience, past and current, can help you somewhat. You can probably identify the feelings and become hopeful. Yes, the pain will stay, but you don’t bury yourself. You find a meaning, learn to forgive yourself and him, and keep on moving forward. It’s a long and very fragile process with a lot of setbacks, but if you search for help, find a person you can trust, share and don’t deny and minimize your pain, you will be able to start healing. I hope you have someone in your life who can support you during this difficult period in your life.
You will be in my thoughts, Anne.
Thank you Sofia. So much.
I have been long-distance friends with this guy for 10 years. Recently, he visited my country and we spent three wonderful days together. We slept together on the second night and when he left after a week, he kept contacting me and making promises about seeing me in the near future, traveling with me, marrying me and having children.
Something about his being set off alarm bells in me so I decided to test him by being vulnerable with him and opening up about my mother’s cancer, my dad’s passing, and my own emotional problems. I expected a reply from him and it took him 5 days to get back to me with the reply “let’s talk about his when we meet up again.” At that point, my alarm bells were becoming louder so I accused him of making promises he could not keep and of only wanting to get into my pants. He claimed he was a relationship-oriented guy, even though he had slept with 46 women and none of them were long-term relationships. When I confronted him, he said that no woman tells him what to do and he does not like it when someone tells him how he is.
I became weary of him and removed him from FB. He tried to call but I did not answer. Feeling miserable for the next 12 days, I decided to re-add him, telling him that I wanted to keep the friendship. He called for the next three days, telling me what he was up to and making future plans. When on the fourth day I asked him to call me, he did not. It’s been five days now and no call from him.
I think I should have listened to my instinct the first time. It is obvious to me now that I am dealing with a future faker, hence the emotional instability I was feeling during the past month. I bet he will get in touch again in the future, but will have moved on.
@ Artemisia – I find us women are so hopeful and we always give men the benefit of the doubt.. We hope that maybe we overreacted and give the man another (and another, and another)chance to only realized we should have closed the door the first time.
He will probably contact you to see if he still has a hold on you and although it may feel good, it’s all out of bad intentions. My ex told me to block him and 2 weeks later, he tries to text me to find out if I actually blocked him. I so wanted to respond and connect with him, but he was probably just wanted sex or a texting friend because he was bored. We can’t let these men use us for their own benefit and we need to move on.
Be strong..
sammi, yes, I agree. Many of us are very kind. The good thing though is that I have had this pattern with a few other men and now I know the signs early on. It has only been 1.5 months with this one and I could tell from the first month that he was future faking. When I lose respect for a man, it is game over. I am actually proud I have the ability to distinguish these losers now at 32 because when I was younger I would let things fester for months.
Ladies, listen to your instincts! They are there for a reason.
Why do we move so fast, ladies? When I say “fast”, I don’t mean sex.
You say you knew each other for 10 years – did you know each other well? I’ve known a single EU man for 22 years now, and I don’t know the “inner” him very well at all and he does not know me.
You (we) have a pent up need to be in a “supportive couple”, so you fast forward things yourself by deciding to dump all your needs for emotional support on a man simply because you had sex with him. And if sex for YOU means all those emotional ties are in place, then sex needs to wait until a firm emotional foundation has been laid.
I think people have no skillset for forging tight emotional bonds any more. We think everything is “instant”. We forget that trust and strong love require TIME. Time spent in each other’s presence, making those little deposits of trust in our individual trust banks. Those small consistent honesties that occur over time, that let you know ‘this person really cares for me’. Instead, it seems we have sex, then present the other person with a payment due bill. “You spose’ to be my man now, so you spose’ to care about all my problems!”
I agree that love takes time, but if a man isn’t going to be in the least bit supportive when you are vulnerable with him early on, what can you expect in the future?
Yes, I may be guilt of fast forwarding myself, but you can tell if something is good when you see it (or shortly after).
no, it cannot! That’s the fricken problem. You most certainly would be appealing to a control freak since you hand your soul over to him, or even worse a psychopath!
@Artemisia,
Whatever is correct in that we CANNOT know a good man right away. More accurately, we can pick out blatant Ted flags, but so much does not unfold until later.
I thought after almost six months that I was with the Best Guy Ever. I 100% believed that. 100 percent. No doubts. Totally in love. Trusted him completely and everything he told me. He was nice. And smart. And responsible. And kind. And guess what? I was 100 percent fucking wrong.
Elgie, good to see you commenting again 🙂 I think the answer to the first question is socializing. We do that because we’re being groomed by our culture (and I’ve lived in many countries/cultures) to be like that – to give give give. And I think we’re largely taught the wrong idea of what giving is. Someone recommended Henry Cloud here and as a product of the Judeo-Christian world I certainly inherited the skewed version of what giving means he mentions. Although this has nothing to do with real values of Christianity. Not to veer too much into religion – but we often think it’s the right thing to do for a woman is to give even when she’s emotionally impoverished herself. We are tired, exhausted by deception, by work troubles etc etc but we’ve got to be giving because not giving = bad. Which is totally wrong. I like what HC writes in his books. He talks about God wanting us to have boundaries and protecting our own resources first. Otherwise we give out of fear, not out of love. And get resentful when we get nothing in return. I know I have definitely done this with men before.
Correction (typing without re-reading): not socializing, SOCIALIZATION.
Why, I agree. There is nothing wrong with giving and caring for others. Important to know and remember though, from the Christianity point of view as well, we have to give to ourselves first: love, respect, and care before we can love and care for others (healthily not obsessively and impulsively). We have to have the boundaries and respect for our own lives before we can give to others. Otherwise, it’s not giving really, but looking for validation, soothing the fear, handing to someone the responsibility to care and fix ourselves, transferring our insecurities, and waiting (even if subconsciously) for a payback. Wholesome, healthy, unconditional giving and love come from a wholesome, complete person. With no expectations, obligations, or insecurities attached.
Artemesia
I know you feel badly and I can’t help but think that you pushed things along way too fast, first with sleeping too soon, then with opening up and then you felt so bad about that you started to assume he didn’t want you. I’m not sure you really gave him a chance. It is a lot to put on someone so soon. A therapist told me not to reveal you problems until you really get to know each other, like in a year. Seriously, you need to take it slow.
I think this is how it might work, I made a new female friend, we hung out, exchanged services and got to know each other. she was married and that was cool, then at about the one year point she told me she had a lover.
I was kinda shocked, but kinda not because she eluded to some stuff leading up to the year that made me almost guess it before she told me. It’s weird how that happened, but even though I am soooo against that I liked her enough to keep her in my life. had she told me right away, I think it would have turned out different. Yes, it did bring up issues as I shared my viewpoint, but we were best friends for about 6 years, and it was worth it.
When this therapist told me this (a male therapist I trusted) I was like, a year!!! but then I remember how my friendship with my friend unfolded. Now, you may have to tell him about your sick parent, but you gave him way too much info way too soon. You scared him away, maybe, if not, dial it back…way back sister!
I don’t know. He claimed I was putting pressure on him when he was the one who a week earlier wanted to know where we stand. As I said, alarm bells started ringing very fast with this future faker.
A whole year to reveal myself to someone? Ummm, no thanks. I would rather know things sooner for him too. Why waste a whole year to know someone’s problems? If a guy can’t handle it, I just walk.
@Art…..because if you reveal too soon they aren’t attached enough to you yet, you haven’t given them a chance to fall in love with you. I agree a year is too long, but a week, a month, unless they are at risk being with you..is too soon.
art
I think you are afraid of abandonment, but the way you do it might ensure abandonment. I reveal things too soon too,that’s why I know this. It backfires on you most times.
Art,
sorry, I missed the part of your post where you say you have been friends with this guy for 10 years, ok, well doesn’t he know about you and your issues then if you have been friends for so long. This doesn’t make any sense, if he knows nothing important about you then in my books he has not been a friend, but more of an acquaintance. He’s known you one way (sans issues) for 10 years, I guess he would be surprised to all of the sudden get to really know you. Sounds inauthentic all around to me, you haven’t trusted him enough during your friendship of 10 years to reveal yourself, well then is there really anything there? Good luck with it.
We live in different countries and actually met online in a forum that deals with an academic interest we both share. Most of o friendship has been online, and we mostly talked about our mutual interests. So that’s how we know each other and no, it did not get deeper until now.
Correction: it did not get deeper until he visited me a month and a half ago and we slept together soon after.
BUT…..I spoke to his ex of six years ago today (she is a colleague) and she said that he is really crazy and that he once hit her on her face when he was drunk. They had a very ugly breakup. I did not tell her that he and I were involved but that I just happened to see him recently and wanted to know what she thought of him.
My experience has been that exes have a good handle on someone’s personality. And most of the time, these dudes repeat the same treatment in subsequent relationships. So it is always good to find out from one or more exes (if you can) to see if it is a character trait rather than his connection to you.
Well, Artemisia, you go on gathering all the evidence you need to support your view of things, since that is where your mindset is right now.
If a man told me several of his personal issues after our first encounter, I’d seriously consider backing away from him. I’m not his savior. I got my own issues and my own life, and I am not jumping into the deep end of full emotional support after one encounter. There’s too many other things I need to know about his personality, our compatibility, before I become his emotional scaffold. And if he dumps me because I did not meet his expectations, that is his baggage, not mine. And Whatever made a great point about 10 years and no deep knowledge of the important issues in each other’s lives means he is at the acquaintance level. I don’t doubt that he is a great guy, but I doubt if he expected he was to be cast as your emotional air bag.
Baggage Reclaim. We gotta own our own baggage. Can’t get better until we do.
You write: “there’s too many other things I need to know about his personality, our compatibility, before I become his emotional scaffold.”
So emotionally connecting with him isn’t a top priority? I don’t know about you guys, but for me it actually is. I am aware that many women want men with money and such, but how can you see if you are compatible if you don’t become vulnerable with each other?
And by the way, he is back but now I am keeping him at arm’s length.
Wow, Artemisia, I can hear you roar – “You don’t agree with me? Then you must be a money-seeking gold-digger who has no interest in emotional connection, or certainly no understanding of real emotional connection.”
I’m cautious. I need to know things that only TIME can reveal. That only observation can show. Seeing each other in different scenarios, in interactions with others. And for me, if after one sexual encounter the man expects that I am his emotional rock, he is mistaken. It would be like he wrote a script of his life, needed a suitable woman to play a role, ANY suitable woman, I came along, and he and cast me as that woman. He doesn’t know me. Why does he want to lean on me so heavily, so early? He has no idea who I actually am. And possibly no real interest in who I actually am, because it is really all about HIM fulfilling the script of HIS life.
I saw a “Dates From Hell” episode like that. A man pursued his “dream girl” for two years…she was a store clerk and he’d repeatedly go to the store, chat her up, friendly-like, and ask her out. She always said no. But after two years, she finally said yes. He took her on a scripted date – picnic in the park, violins, flowers, strawberries, poetry. She felt no chemistry though, but enjoyed the date for what it was. When he drove her home and asked for a second date, she declined. She got out of the car, and MR. I-just-want-to-love-you ran her over with his car. Twice.
Her being in his life was all about HIM casting her in the script of HIS life. How did he know whether she even liked flowers? Maybe she’s allergic. Or picnics? Maybe she, like me, is not crazy about shooing bugs away from food. He had no real interest in getting to know her.
I love “Dates From Hell”. And the “My Crazy Exes” show. Check out the timelines. It is usually within 90 days that “true love” turns into “true crime”.
Art
Emotional connection is my priority too, as with many here, but it takes trust and trust takes time. I have done what you do too many times and yes, I hate it, I want to know right away if there will be an emotional connection, but you find that out in other ways first, like how do you feel when you are with him, are you feeling more connected to yourself, or less connected with yourself. You share to gain trust, but you might want to try trusting before you share.
Well, he is now back and liking every one of my FB posts. Men! I will give it a bit longer and see what I will do. In the meantime, I am doing nothing.
Hi, Artemisia. What’s happening in your head? It’s not his job to “win” you. You scared him off. Are you ready to slow down and get to know him? Or are you thinking he has to make up to you for some bad behavior? Game playing.
Not judging. If you like push you–pull me games, so be it.
He’s back for one of two reasons: 1) he does like you and wants to see if, together, you two can get things back on course to a good place, maybe friendship, maybe more or 2) he is not willing to throw away a FWB situation.
Anyway, my reason for posting to you is, I was reading older Nat posts, and I liked how this poster described the things we should be trying to find out in the discovery process of dating:
Written by poster Brad K., 2010 –
I think a long term relationship is bigger than a personal choice.
If you meet someone, and get closer because of feelings, this has the makings of a decent to great episode of social recreation.
If you want something more, a shared life, a life partner – a mate, then you are looking at building a couple. And couples interact with their community. You will each, as a couple, be making choices and efforts outside the coupledom, because of being part of the couple – at work, shopping, at play, with friends, with family.
Selecting a mate has to take more into account. For one thing, you don’t just have to trust and respect him when he is with you – you have to be sure that he is competent, respectful – trustworthy, trusted, and respected – with those you know and those you meet.
One really big red flag is how he treats you with his friends and family – are you a visitor or a cherished guest? Are there indications he often has “dates” tagging along (! Might be a Perpetual Dater!), or does he have no friends or contact with family (! Might be *unable* to connect emotionally!) or pets? Is he proud of you, like a trophy of some kind (!), is he possessive that you don’t talk or contact anyone (! Isolation issue!), or is he genuinely making you and his relationship to you a part of his private and social life?
Do your friends find him substantial as a member of the community, does he have a life (do you?) socially and personally, outside the dating scene?
How he behaves with others doesn’t matter much between the sheets (or it gets really kinky really quick). But if you want someone for the long haul, then you need to know who he is and where you stand with him. One good way to do that is to find out where you stand when he is with friends, family, and community. Few people can sham and manipulate everyone, everywhere, and still seem genuine. That is the place, socially and within the community, to look for more red flags. Does he see a role for you in his life, or only in bed? Do you matter to him only skin to skin, or out in public, too?
Elgie R,
Fantastic find!
Thank you so much for the words and to have some people in my corner here on BR. I’ve been devouring everything I can. I think the hardest part is his mind games where he said I ruined his life. I was pushy. Too needy. Basically it was all my fault. That’s what I struggle with so much …. Blame. I am going to investigate finding a counsellor. I feel myself shrinking inside day by day but to crawl back to him I just can’t do it. Full no contact. Hugs
This post is so appropriate for what I am currently dealing with. I just cut all ties with a guy who used to be a good friend. I was blindsided because he came across as the classic caring nice guy. However, he used me for sex and is unwilling to admit to himself that this might, in fact, make him the exact kind of arsehole that he pretends that he is not, because he is very wedded to the idea of himself as a “nice guy”. (I vented here, for anyone interested in the backstory This post helps reaffirm my sense that trying to make him understand that he behaved like a complete sh*t would be a complete waste of my time.
Thanks for posting that link, E. Aren’t they always insisting what “nice guys” they are? If it were true, you wouldn’t need to TELL me/the world all the time. Your actions would speak for themselves, “nice guy.”
The other thing that floored me with this guy is that he was actually seeing a counsellor (which his mommy set up for him of course) and then coming up with all the psycho-babble about how she was telling him he had a right to things that were ‘soul feeders’ and for someone to accept him as he was, etc. etc. That he was a ‘good catch.” Ad nauseum. I think he had this woman completely snowed. It’s a pretty strong indication of his manipulative skills if he can convince a professional.
Thanks Nat for this post, it is very timely for me and resonates a lot!
I haven´t commented on BR in a long time and my romantic life was very good for a while. Now I feel more and more often like the sober person trying to have a conversation with the drunk, only the drunk is my boyfriend of 9 months who is not necessarily drinking.
He will stir up drama out of the blue, for no coherent reason whatsoever, and then say very hurtful and untrue things. When these rantings began I would try not to engage emotionally (though sometimes he has made me cry) and leave, but it seems like he is becoming more and more aggressive and incoherent.
He has apologized and justified himself saying that when he drinks he becomes like that, and that I just shouldn´t try to reason with him or take him seriously but I think that´s just an excuse to be abusive. He is unkind when sober too and drinking doesn´t make you aggressive, I think it depends on your personality how you´re going to react.
A little over a week ago my bf´s grandmother died and he asked me to pick up a flower wreath for him on the other side of town and meet him at the church. Of course I wanted to be helpful so I did, and when I arrived he was seemingly touched and very happy to see me but then he couldn´t avoid complaining about why it had taken me so long, he thought I would be there 20 minutes earlier (though we hadn´t set a time). Anyway. I was with him the whole afternoon, making chitchat with his relatives (most of whom I didn´t really know), hugging him and holding his hand, and overall being supportive. That night we stayed at his flat and some frieds of him came over. But then, when we were alone in his bed, he suddenly became furious because I asked him something. I don´t mean I asked him something particular, it was just a conversational question, and part of a normal dialogue. Something like this:
him: when we were kids we always visited my grandmother on such and such occasion, blahblah
me: oh and did such and such come along too?
Or maybe it was something like:
me: oh and what did y´all do?
I don´t really remember, it was completely unimportant. The only thing I remember was that he suddenly exploded and yelled that he doesn´t answer any questions, that how dare I ask him a question, and please shut up. I told him this was very hurtful but then he just went mad and started on and on about how I was drawing all the attention to myself on the day his grandmother had died, that I should be there for him and not make a scene, that he had never expected something like this from me etc.
By then I was crying, he even shouted at me to shut up. I wanted to leave at once but I didn´t because it was about 2am and I didn´t want to worry my mom, who was staying at my house to take care of my kids.
On the other hand, I knew that if I went away, I would end up being the drama queen who abandoned her poor boyfriend when his grandma had just died. So I turned over and hoped he would fall asleep but he went on for a long time about how he had invited me over to cuddle with me and now I was turning my back to him and wasn´t I a terribly cold, insensitive girlfriend.
At 6 am (on a sunday morning, mind you!) he woke me and ordered me to give him my impressions of his grandmother so he could get some inspiration for his speech for the funeral. Then he slept a couple of hours more. I didn´t. I was angry, scared and sad. I just wanted him to be nice to me again and hold me. When he woke up we did cuddle some and it felt like a relief, like the night before had been a bad dream, but of course it wasn´t. We had sex and it hurt physically.
I went through the funeral like the nice, sweet girlfriend, so in love with Dr. Jekyll and unaware of Mr. Hyde. I think I got distracted by all the people around us, and it was nice to see his brothers and sister in law, who are always very friendly to me. But at times I felt like I was going to be sick.
I haven´t seen him since, last weekend I told him I had the flu and didn´t want to pass it on to him. But the truth is I don´t feel like seeing him. I don´t know if I´m exaggerating, perhaps someone with a thicker skin wouldn´t have paid much attention to his nonsense, but I feel terrible. I just wish I were somewhere else. This has probably been his worst outburst but not the first one, and I fear this will escalate.
Lilia, you have all the answers but for some reason you refuse to hear your own voice. You are scared. You don’t want to be in those situations. You have all the answers you need. YOU don’t feel treated well. Who the hell cares what the others think? They are not there when he screams at you to shut up when you cry (dear God!).
You’re being emotionally abused. Please read on what it means by simply googling it. I guarantee you will find very many stories similar to yours. And very many of them start with the denial. The fact that you mention that it feels like one side of him is a “bad dream” is hints at the fact that you don’t want to acknowledge it is a reality. I don’t blame you. I’ve been with a man who emotionally and physically abused me for 4 months. His father died (he’s been sick for a very long time) and he’d go into absolutely horrifying hours of anger and berating me for the smallest things and for the way I looked, ate, dressed, worked etc. To throwing things around the house and sometimes me as well. It felt like a bad dream too.
Except I knew this is not normal. Being that out of control is not normal. When years after that (this year) my own father died and it was very all of a sudden, I did not go into fits of hitting objects, picking fights with my loved ones or calling them selfish. Yes, we all grieve differently but abuse is NEVER okay. NOTHING excuses abuse.
The person you’ve described is abusing you and has real problems with anger management. And you are absolutely right – it will escalate and it will not stop.
You shouldn’t feel as if someone with a ‘thicker skin’ would have ignored his outbursts. Nobody should be accepting this treatment from *anyone*, let alone a romantic partner. This is outright abuse as I’m sure you’re aware and you’re completely right to be worrying about escalation. The more you accept of this disgusting treatment, the more your boyfriend will realise he can get away with it.
The fact that you haven’t felt like seeing him recently speaks volumes; that’s your gut trying to protect you from further abuse. Can’t believe he went mad when you just asked a simple question – indicative of some serious issues!
If I were you I’d just split up with him as you can do far better than someone with a terrible temper who mistreats women.
@Lilia;
Someone with a thicker skin would have left at 2 a.m. Someone with a thicker skin would not be with an alcoholic that yells at them all night, all day, on his grandmothers funeral, and THEN expects sex. Whoa. You’re not exaggerating. You’re totally under-selling the awful mess you’re in.
My friend you are totally in denial. Leave him immediately. The man is physically (almost?) abusive, definitely verbally and emotionally abusive. He’s an alcoholic. What are your boundaries for relationships? Do you want an alcoholic in your kids life? What are you doing to yourself and your kids? You’re leaving your kids and mum behind for this low-life? And you’re wondering whether someone else would put up with the nonsense better? Run.far.away from this toxic, over-grown child, disaster of a person. You’ll never get anything from him.
And you need to figure out what is making you so susceptible. He’ll try to keep arm twisting you if you leave, he’s going to be enraged. And he’ll tell you that you’re a selfish so and so for leaving him, how could you, after all he did for you. And if you dont wise up, you’ll fall for this. You have kids. You have a responsibility to them and yourself first. He’s old enough to take care of himself when his grandmother dies – he doesnt need you to be his mommy, he can take care of himself, and he has family and friends. Let them do it. Dont get sucked back in.
Make excuses to avoid him and avoid him until you’re strong enough to fully break it off. If you have to, dont tell him its about him, tell him a lie about why you’re breaking it off – tell him your kids really need you, its too much for you to handle a relationship. Dont tell him the truth about what a loser he is because no one likes to hear that, and because he will twist that and he doesnt deserve the truth from you.
Lilia this is emotional abuse and is not to be tolerated no matter who has died. You cannot have a relationship with someone who is unhinged – full stop – you are not in a relationship with this person – you need equality for that – this is abusive and you are not exaggerating – any man who makes you feel ‘angry, scared or sad’ get away from as soon as you can and NEVER see them again. I am so sorry Lilia you really deserve to be with someone respectful and truly loving ALL the time. Follow your great great instincts to stay away.
Lilia, as Artesmia said – listen to your instincts! They are screaming at you to leave this relationship. Stop making excuses or over valuing the peaceful times that occur between his drama moments. This man is a Jekyll/Hyde and he will continue to be so. He will twist your mind and emotions and may escalate to physical abuse if you hang around long enough.
Leaving him will probably be drama filled too. He strikes me as the type who won’t let you go when YOU want to leave. I recognize the “I have the flu” ploy. We use that with men that we know will make it difficult for us to extricate ourselves from a relationship.
So, if you really need someone else to tell you you are right, here goes: You are not exaggerating. You do not need a “thicker skin”. You are right to feel things could escalate with this man. You are right to want to be somewhere else. Get out of this relationship, but do it slowly and wisely. Always be busy/sick/too tired/too depressed. Or do a date here or there only in public places – NEVER ever be alone with him in the future. Fake a sexual dysfunction – say you lost interest in sex “don’t know why it happened, but you just don’t want it anymore”. Don’t ever let him cajole you into intimacy again. He abused you with sex during that funeral weekend. He made sure to turn you off mentally, then he used your body for his pleasure the next morning – without a care in the world about whether you were into it. He is an emotional abuser. I dated one of those – so mentally draining. I was so glad when he stood me up for a movie – he was punishing me for some imagined transgression – and I used that ‘stand up” as my ticket out of the relationship. I did not call him to complain/ask for an explanation. Nothing. He finally called but I listened to him with no emotion, and said ending it was “for the best”.
Dear Lilia,
Please continue to ignore your bf. He seems to not only be mean, verbally abusive but could eventually be physically abusive as you have eluded.
You have children which you should concentrate on and i would hate for your children to witness this abuse if one day you all go out or worst, live together.
He has issues only he can deal with, no matter how sweet and understanding you try to be. They will always redirect pain from theirselves into others and you will be that scapegoat. It’s easier to lash out at someone that to face one’s own demons.
Good luck and be safe. Xo
Thank you so much everyone for your replies, it means a lot and I found myself nodding at each and every one of your comments.
I´ve been reading about emotional and verbal abuse and am shocked at how much I relate to the descriptions. For example, I didn´t know that abusers will often interrupt their victim´s sleep by putting on the light or initiating sex or simply starting a conversation in the middle of the night. This is exactly what my bf does when I stay over at his place (which is about once a week). I used to think it was just part of some personal obnoxiousness and didn´t give it much importance.
I´ve found a very informative page with other traits and I´ll copy the link here in case it´s useful to someone else:
So far I´ve seen him do the following: baiting, cruelty to animals (I was shocked once when he tried to hit his parents´dogs, that was a huge red flag to me), false accusations, hoovering, invalidation, proxy recruitment (he had me convinced his mom was cruel to him but then I found out it was the other way around),raging, silent treatment, sleep deprivation, targeted humor… oh help this is terrible!
I can´t believe how naive I´ve been. I think in part I just didn´t know much about abuse, and on the other hand this is the first time in 5 years I´ve been in a proper relationship since my divorce. Also, I had the feeling that at 43 years old this was my last chance. And it did look good on paper, and this guy was very flattering in the beginning, and has an extraordinary social charisma. But of course, now I don´t mind if I spend the rest of my life single.
The good thing is I never introduced him to my children, I suppose that was my gut telling me to protect them from him.
As Suki and Elgie pointed out, I suspect he´ll get in a rage if I try to get out of this in a straightforward way, and I am very thankful for the strategies you suggest. I had been rehearsing the things I wanted to tell him in my mind but it just felt useless, like I would be talking a bull out of attacking me. Avoiding him politely seems the only safe way to do this, thanks again everyone.
It’s unbelievable that there are this many men in the world who do these things. I think that I have been thru the fire so badly that there is no way I could miss the signs and signals now and be able to walk away before damage was inflicted. I’m grateful that you have chosen to share your stories with me. I wish I could give everyone a big hug.
Anne. I have said the same and I was still not honest with myself. I have walked through the fire many times. I heal then I walk through another one again. So, I heal and then am finally able to see the next fire looming in my path. I walk through it, but not as far. I heal once again, see another smokey problem in front of me and get my feet burned but don’t walk all the way through it. I heal. I feel so self aware. I walk through more flames. I am sure I see fire, I am sure I will be able to see it next time…..yet I still put my feet in the next one that pops up. Maybe I am just stupid? I tell myself this for a while. Maybe I am just cursed? Maybe it is my bad karma for hurting someone in my past? I go round and round with all the reasons as to why why why, but the truth that lies right in front of me is this. I always have a choice and the choices I have made have been from a direct result of how much (little) I trusted myself. I SEE the red flags, the smoke and have felt the heat but I doubt my own gut and intuition so I go ahead and make choices based on doubting myself. I end up engulfed in flames every time I do this. My son told me of a song by 3-11 called First Straw. It’s about ignoring all the first and second and third straws (red flags) when the drama and pain of acting on the last straw could of been avoided by listening to the FIRST straw. This post by NML has sunk in with my last dating attempt with online dating nice guy turned lying sex pervert who trolls craigslist for sex. Very early on I saw things in him that made me uncomfortable. I ignored them because he was so nice to me. I ignored my own voice telling me inside that something was off about him. He was a huge liar first and foremost to himself, which is very apparent to me now. I asked for honesty from a guy who cannot even face his own self. He was riddled with demons he could not face. I don’t think he is evil, just very deep in dysfunction. Yep, we know how that turned out. So, now I heal once again from my latest fire walking attempt. The healing was quicker than it used to be, so at least I have that. I do learn from all these mistakes, but I guess I am a slow learner and have much self doubt to overcome within. I am facing it, but the doubt was built in form a tiny child so the process is slow. This guy built me up in a way no one has but it was all facade and desperation on his part to be liked. I ate it up like candy. But, I’m proud to say I’m back on the BS diet. Rock on Lovely Ladies and Gents of BR.
Selkie,
I hear you with the analogy about fire! Thank you for making me laugh. I am not laughing per se about your situation. But I saw myself walking thru a fire with my hair torched and soot on my face. LOL. Don’t we all walk thru fires? Not just in relationships but with other areas of our lives.
You just keep on walking Selkie you are going to be fine. We just have to keep a steady pace to make it. Do what you can to smile and enjoy each day. You are learning so much and that makes you stronger.
What good does it do to worry? None. Think about the lesson and move on to the next fire lol. Next time we can both put on fire retardant suits. We have to laugh at ourselves sometimes to make it thru the day. Right Ladies?
MJ
@Selkie. “Maybe I am just stupid?” Yes, that must be it. 🙂
“Maybe it is my bad karma for hurting someone in my past?” Now this is more interesting, but do you understand what you say? The meaning of it should be that you pay for YOUR mistakes. So if “the doubt was built in form a tiny child”, do YOU have to keep paying for your parents’ mistakes?
Think about it.
“I do learn from all these mistakes, but I guess I am a slow learner” Yes, that must be it. 🙂
Best,V.
Great post, Nat!! And of course it happens to be that I’m reading it after a very bizarre 4th of July BBQ with two acquaintances. These 2 women know each other and one of them invited me to join them and few other people for a BBQ. I will preface the story with the fact that I don’t know either of the women very well – and I’m even more sure I don’t want to know them after witnessing the BS they were trying to tell me about their “dates” for the evening.
Throughout the night both women felt it necessary to continuously tell me the men they brought with them were “just friends”, “there’s nothing going on there”, “we’re just co-workers, nothing more”. And yet the familiar way in which they related to these men indicated they were way more than “just friends” or it was so obvious they intended for everyone there to know they were more than “just friends”. At one point one of the women actually patted her “date’s” behind as she cooed in his ear. It was all very gag-worthy and I soon excused myself because I started to feel like I was in the Twilight Zone. I have a very low tolerance for people who don’t value integrity. I find its a good rule of thumb that if you tolerate ambiguity in your friendships, then you’re more likely to become desensitized to it when it comes to romantic relationships. I am completely baffled as to why they felt the need to be deceptive about their relationships with these men.
The title of this post says it all…if they aren’t even honest with themselves, then they probably won’t be honest with you either. I won’t be seeking out the company of these women ever again.
Bek… that *is* bizarre… hearing them continually insist out loud what the connection was to these men seems like a dead giveaway: if you have to keep telling me, I guess it’s not self-evident. When I’m out with my friends, I don’t go around telling people we’re “just friends.” Because I don’t have to. Same with EUMs – they say a whole lotta stuff but it doesn’t add up and they *know* it… and that’s why they do it. To see if you’ll buy their talk and ignore your gut. Talk at a bbq is pretty innocuous/inconsequential but in terms of this behavior, predators of all stripes use this tactic to “shop” for victims. I read a book called The Gift of Fear – about manipulation/violence/control and how people give signs that they’re “testing” to see how cooperative you’ll be. This is deeply chilling stuff when placed in that context.
@Michelle. Awesome book suggestion, thanks a lot! V.
I know a pathological liar who created the
make-believe-world he lives in, and it is so ‘bad’ people don’t bother to confront him anymore.
In the beginning people tried to help him, but they soon tired of his game. He is highly intelligent and clever, and seems super sweet and gentle…nonthreatening, helpful, and ‘giving,’ but behind the soft spoken veneer is a really sick predator.
Some people lack self-awareness; some people lie to themselves, but some people are social deviants who just plain lie for one reason or another or no reason at all. Some people like to play games; some people are sadistic. Some people are psychopaths, etc.
I have zero tolerance for BS, and I don’t care why they do it. I’m learning NOT to get drawn into their drama.
First of all, I’m from Holland. So excuse me if I sometimes find it hard to use the right words to express myself.
Let me start off by complementing you, Natalie, for your blog. Even though I am a male and some of your posts are, well, let’s say chick related ;), I found a lot (and by that I really mean A LOT) of useful tips that helped me to get through my break up process.
I also found many similarities with other readers by reading their comments. And therefore I would like to ask you all for your honorable and objective opinion of my case. I know that this is probably not the perfect post for this, but it was the most recent one. I really feel the urge to share this with such experts like you, haha.
Anyway, long story short, my ex broke up with me about two months ago. I got a text message on sunday morning where she stated she had doubts about our relationship. She wanted to talk that evening, so I picked her up and we talked. She said she missed something in our relationship. To break up with me was, to use her own words, the hardest thing she has done in her life. We decided to take a two week break so that she could figure out for herself what she wanted to do. Although it was pretty obvious that this was unrepairable for her, I went nuts in the two coming weeks. I tried to talk to her, but she won’t let me. I contacted her way too often, but it was driving me nuts that she had cut me off out of the blue and won’t let me reason with her. When she later said that I had ruined it for myself by not giving her the space she needed, I hated myself for that. It felt like she was trying to find reasons to blame me for the break up, instead of dealing with the fact that it was her decision.
We talked again, at her place, after two weeks. She said she still loves me, but she also loves her dad and her best friend. Did not know what to do with such comments. She also said that she could be making the mistake of her life by letting me go. I was left drifting somewhere in the middle. Too scared to let her go by not contacting her, but realizing that contacting her was pushing her even further away.
So after a month of some days with contact and some days without, she said she needed some space. I told her that was fine because this would also work for me. I said it was fine that we stayed friends, not knowing what tis actually meant for my own feelings. Anyway, the next day she contacted me, accusing me of starting gossips about her. This was not true, and after a sort of argument we stopped texting. That evening she was contacting me again, showing off her new tattoo. She said she found my opinion about it important. I went in too enthusiastically and made the error to ask if she would like to go on a date. She went ballistic saying that I was clearly not ready to be friends.
I ended up being hurt again, and I felt like I was back at day 1 of my recovery. So, I decided to go NC. This worked so well for me! Three weeks went by, and I was regaining my confidence and self-esteem. Then she contacted me, saying she loved my blogs and she was thinking of me. She also asked what was my opinion concerning our relationship (don’t know whether she meant friends or as lovers). I decided not to give in too this, too afraid to say the wrong thing and we would end up fighting again. So, I told her I was doing fine and thanked her for the compliment.
The next day she contacted me again. She asked if I wanted to talk. I agreed and she asked if I was ready to be friends. She missed me as a friend. I told her that we were friends at this moment. She then said “But we have not talked in three weeks.” Wait, what? I reacted as calmly as possible and told her that that was part of the break up process. She wanted me to contact her more often and talk about my day and share her life with me. I countered that this, for me, felt like something couples do and when we were together I always did this with whole my heart. But since she broke up with me, this was not going to happen right now. She closed the conversation somewhat hurt, I guess.
Next day I decided to write her an e-mail, setting up my boundaries. I wrote that I really appreciated her effort to be friends but this was way too early for me. And to avoid any misunderstandings in the future, I asked her to only contact me if she wanted to work on something more than friends. That evening I got a reply in which she thanked me for my e-mail and wrote that if I wanted to be friends with her, I must let her know and that she would really appreciate that.
So, pretty long post I guess haha. Sorry for that. My question is, what am I dealing with here? I know NC works for me so I probably stick to that. I truly miss her, but as a lover. We are clearly not on the same line. I can not wrap my head around the fact that here feelings for me are completely gone, and she just wants me as a friend. Or is there some clue or something that I am missing? And, above all, did I do the right thing by setting up my boundaries? Because I know I really am important to her and she cares about me.
Greetings,
NVO
So nice to see evidence that men have confused feelings too. I’ve always said that men feel emotions every bit as much as women do, but they “express and suppress” things differently. You were feeling better after 3 weeks of NC. Women can linger and linger.
Anyway, you got the “blowing hot and cold” AC on your hands. Yes, ACs exist in both genders. Natalie has elaborated on that type. Try this post…
Somebody Who Blows Hot & Cold
Thank you Elgie for your reply. I read the post and it seems that I made the right choice to close this book and get back on the track I was already on.
I now realize that this ‘hot and cold’ behavior is something she applied from the moment she broke up with me. One day I was an awesome guy, the next day it was all my fault.
I know guys feel almost the same, some of them just refuse to feel it or they simply deny it. I pretty much hit rock bottom when she dumped me. In the three weeks of NC I started to put the focus on me instead of her. I learned so much about myself. That resulted in me being able to cope with her texting me all of a sudden. I’m very proud of myself for achieving that and I’m not going to throw that all away just to please her with being friends.
She will definitely appear again, and she may chip away at your resolve. Or you may be at a low ebb one time when she calls and think “maybe this time it will be different…it might work out…”. Just saying it is not a straight-line rocket ride to healing. Or …maybe it is, given the way the last few rocket launches have gone…KABLOOM!
Just saying, don’t beat yourself up if you get to feeling forlorn over her and start to deceive yourself that she’s good for you. It’s part of the process.
What makes you think that she will appear again?
And thank you for your advice! I won’t beat myself up over my feelings, you got my word on that. Somewhere, deep inside, I know she is not that good for me. Maybe it’s just the idea of being with her that makes me miss her.
We were together for almost 2 years, and for me it was the perfect match. And according to her words, some of them short prior to the break up, I was her perfect match too. To get dropped all of a sudden at that point, hurts like hell. But looking at my situation from where I stand now, I can’t say I feel hopeless. Quite the opposite!
It’s just the nature of the AC beast. They return.
You know, this post is also talking about how the AC lies to him/herself. They are in denial about their own issues. Playing with people’s emotions is a coping mechanism for them, and they are not self-aware enough to ask themselves why. They just continue along, getting their “fixes”. (And it is not our job to help them help themselves!)
I have not physically seen the AC I know since October. We have not been intimate since LAST July. I have not responded to a text since November. But he has called my cell several times recently, not leaving a message; I have not answered. It’s the nature of the beast.
NVO,
I like Elgie’s comments to you. The word that comes to mind when I read what you wrote is BORDERLINE. If that’s not an accurate opinion, it does seem quite obvious that you’re NOT being treated well and her behavior is erratic. It also appears that you have boundaries in place. Pain filters.
I think Elgie’s comments are really awesome too! 🙂
Thank you for replying and taking the time to read my story. The borderline issue you are mentioning is something I also already thought of. I know she had a pretty messy childhood resulting in a very strange and bad relationship with her mother at the time. Maybe that could somewhat clarify her actions and behavior?
I found a concept that really helped me deal with the lingering feelings. It is when we feel (emotional) pain that our bodies produce a numbing serum to help us deal with it – HOPE. Or hope-ium if you will.
I had so much hope sloshing around in me, I was addicted and wanted hits of the drug every time I felt pain of some sort.
The thing is, you have to realise that there is a point, literally, of no hope. Total cold turkey. You feel the pain, say hello and go about your day, no hopeium hit.
I am no against hope, it fuels my dreams and goals, but I also know it is an anesthetiser.
NVO, don’t go down the path of trying to unravel the crazy if you can help it. Don’t get hooked on hope.
Natalie,
Thank you for sharing.
Yes, journeys can be really challenging, sometimes.
I know what you mean about that “kid that lives inside.” That kid will always live inside, even when we take care of and love ourselves, we may still always miss the mom and/or dad or ______ we never had, but maybe that is the real acceptance…maybe we will never forgive and/or forget, maybe we will, some may never let go,some will let go. Some say, ” Love never dies. It can only be put aside. ” Each of us is different. It is helpful to explore the thoughts of others, but I think at some point you need to start thinking for yourself, making your own decisions, using you own values and judgment.
If you can sit in a room by yourself with the TV , internet, … off, if you can go into your body, go underneath the ruminations, and other distractions, long enough to feel, and then sit through those emotions…just being with yourself, I think you are headed in the right direction. The key has always been inner-focused NOT outer-focused. OK, I’m off to go be with me for a while. I’m going to journal.
May your Creator continue to Bless and Keep You and Yours,
Thank you for all you have given me,
Me
Getting ready to go back “home” for a high school reunion. I will be staying at my mom’s. I”m glad I read this post, I need to remember that as she continually feeds and pushes her bullshit beliefs about herself I can try to remain unscathed. It’s all about her all the time 24/7. I feel guilt that I don’t want to go see her, so it has been 5 years since I’ve gone home and I have not missed it at all. So, I will kill two birds with one flight, reunion, visit Mom and a few others. I know she will never change and I need patience and probably should get some drugs to deal with the week ahead. Just kidding, I don’t do drugs, but I can see why some people do.
This was written for me!
I would really appreciate some advice…
I’ve been NC with someone who believes his huge lies big time for 10 months now. Total NC except that when he writes me e-mail (every 3 months) I can’t help reading, even if I don’t reply. I don’t expect nothing, I don’t want him, I’m just unable to let go of curiosity.
Since he’s clearly concerned he’s losing control over me, last week he sent me a 5 pages mental letter, full of the craziest lies. He said he meant to be “finally honest”, but in every line I could read how detached from reality he is and how much he only wanted to catch my attention. He’s got his on fiction going on in his head, I don’t even want to engage replying. However, I can’t read this BS anymore. It makes me regress. In this e-mail, he says how much he misses me and how devastated he is we’re not talking, even if he’s with another woman now, and for the sake of honesty he wanted me to confess now, 1 year and half later, that he’s been sleeping with her when we were still together, and other stuff about them that I clearly don’t need to know, and he did it for revenge cause I made him feel soo lonely, and he is soo sorry and the demons of his love for me are chasing him everyday. I knew he was crap but I didn’t think he would push that further sabotaging me.
I want to put an end to this, shall I just stop reading or change e-mail address to one that block senders (mine unfortunately don’t), or shall I remind him, in few lines and without engaging, that I don’t want to be contacted EVER again? I am afraid my first e-mail was clear, but not enough for such a delusional person. I live in fear of receving this e-mails. Thank God he’s out of my life and Thank God I am a bit stronger and it doesn’t devastate me anymore, even though it does affect me. I don’t know what to do.
Oh wow, don’t even bother. You can’t ever be clear enough for this one. Don’t even read the emails. Remmember the not reading emails is part of No Contact. Every time you read one you are starting over from day one of NC. I learned that here. Do change your email if you are tempted. Right now you need all the help you can get. Keep away, keep away.
The ‘crazy’ lies are his way of luring you back. You are so astounded by this craziness that you wonder how could anyone do this. Well, he does it because he can and you will listen. Keep away, keep away.
Blessings and strength to you. xoxo
I have always wondered in my life why I am more attracted to men I cannot have, playing the second fiddle and wishing eventually I will be chosen. Thanks to the BR community. Now I know I suffer from “Women who talk and think too much” syndrome. I am also a “People Pleaser”- stayed in an emotional abusive relationship for 7 years.
When I was going through a divorce with my EUM husband , I got involved with a guy who I can now diagnosed as an AC. I was so lonely during this period that I got swept off my feet by his Mr. Nice Guy attitude with all the promises of the fun I would have which has been lacking in my previous marriage of 7 years.
He told me he was in a LDR. I was also emotionally unavailable for any serious relationship, so I couldn’t care less for any promises of commitment.
During the first month of blowing hot, He stood me up the first time – code red. When I confronted him, he just laughed and could not even say sorry or tell me why.
Then the lies began, whenever confronted about his words not matching his actions, he goes into a fit of rage and I will eventually be the one saying sorry. He will also give me the silent treatment for days whenever I ask him to clarify his actions, then press the “Reset” button when we see each other as if nothing had happened.
Then the casual relationship suddenly turned to booty call. He stopped hanging out with me during day, stopped going to the gym with me and all the other fun things we use to do together.
I have yelled at him several times for disrespecting me and he will just laugh and even give me the silent treatment. I will break up with him over this and then beg him to take me back. My self-esteem was so low.
In all of this, I have been the one mostly doing things for him, giving him a ride to work, cooking for him and even giving him money at times.
7 days ago, I decided to give him a dose of his treatment. I knowingly burst his boundary. He went into a fit of rage with me and yelled all kind of insult at me through text and then the silent treatment began. He gave me 2 days of silent treatment. It was like I was losing my mind. I came across NML blog and book.
I read “Mr. Unavailable and the Fallback Girl” in one day. I am currently reading “No Contact Rule”. I also read about AC and comments of the BR community.
5 days ago, I texted him to tell him I want to see him so that we can talk. As usual, he was rude and dismissive of me. I text him I am sorry for disrespecting him. I also pointed out several instances of how he has disrespected me in the past without any apology.
He was very arrogant as usual. He text me “At least you know you are wrong and have apologized so end of story”.
I decided there and then to walk away with the remaining dignity I have left. I text him to tell him it’s over for real this time and that he should not contact me and I will not contact him anymore.
4 days ago, there comes the fishing text “How are you today?”. I ignored it and I have been NC since then. I was only involved with the AC for 4 months, but during those months, I acted like I was crazy and embarrassed myself on several occasions.
We work together, so when I bumped into him, I said my usual “Good morning” and walked away.
I am still detoxing from this non-relationship as my self-esteem got dealt a big blow.I am taking it one day at a time with the help of NML books and BR Community.
Thanks.
The stories
Then I came across this
I thought I have been making good progress at getting over my ex. it’s been a year now & I have grieved & felt anger & sadness, healthy right? I have taken accountability in my part of the demise of my relationship. All is good. So why does it piss me off so much that he hasn’t? Why do I want the fantasy of him realizing how mmuch of an asshole he truly is, how sick he is & how much he needs help? He’s in denial? My ex totally blames me for our relationship, totally is angry & bitter towards me. Refuses to look at himself. I can honestly say I gave 3OO% in our relationship. to the point of losing my self esteem. I don’t think I have ever felt so degraded & humiliated in a relationship, & naively I hung on to every glimmer of hope. What a fool I was! I was used, abused & spit out. I mean he treated me like shit. I can barely write about it. Yet he still is that fucking unaware of how fucked up he it? Seriously?? He has not been in a relationship since. I am the ONLY relationship he has ever had in his entire life! No one wants him. I put up with him, & still, HE DOES NOT GET IT. He is addicted to transgendered pornography, he’s a cross dresser, he abuses his cat, he has no friends, he’s a hoarder, he’s cheap, he’s immature, he’s narcisstic, he’s verbally & mentally abusive. he can’t even kiss, omg I could go on & on! He is the epitome of believing his own lies. Why does this poor excuse of a being piss me off so much??
Wow, Lauren. You are saying “How can someone so undeserving NOT WANT ME!”
Can you see the paradox in that? You are not saying you’re hurt because a lovely man who has all the qualities you crave in a person has decided you are not the one for him. You’re not saying that a man who treated you with Love Care Trust and Respect decided you were not the woman for him. Instead, you feel like he is an ungrateful wretch for not appreciating how much you sacrificed yourself to keep him, and now he has the audacity to not contact you.
And in your view, you dug low into the barrel to get him. You feel like he “owes” you something.
You are seeking validation. You’re not getting it from your targeted source. That’s what is making you angry.
You gotta change the source of your validation from external (him) to internal – YOU. That’s the challenge that your pain is trying to tell you. Making that change IS the hard part.
Yes, Elgie,
you are bang on.I have low self esteem & I need to love myself. If I had loved myself, I would never have even entered into that relationship. I am angry with him, & also with myself. I don’t even know where to begin….
We do get angry at ourselves when things go wrong, don’t we? And we won’t forgive ourselves.
I’ve been working on doing that too. I don’t know why it is so hard to let myself off the hook.
We made a mistake. We certainly forgive others for making mistakes…why is it so hard to forgive ourselves for making a mistake?
I think that until we forgive ourselves it is really impossible to move on.