I can't believe I'm getting cocoa instead of sex!

Let’s imagine that a perfect stranger you’ve recently become ‘acquainted’ with, asks if they can meet you at 11pm at your place. Note that I use the term ‘acquainted’ loosely as it’s the internet hence it’s almost like projected hologram to projected hologram, but I digress…

Do you:

A) Find it uncomfortable and flush because (1), they’re a stranger, (2), it’s late at night, and (3) even if they won’t admit it, it’s highly likely that there’s sexual intentions.

B) Find it uncomfortable but offer to meet during the day or earlier on in the evening and then if they decline or keep going for the late night stuff, flush at that point.

C) Think, ‘Wow, they must be really into me if they want to see me at 11pm and hang out with me at my place. They obviously can’t wait until daylight.’

D) Think it’s strange but then doubt yourself. ‘Maybe I’m a prude. Maybe I’m judging him / her unfairly. Maybe I’m jumping to conclusions and all they want to do is come over and chat, watch TV, and have cocoa and cookies. Sure they’re just some stranger that I met online who could literally be anyone and it’s certainly odd that they want to come to my place, but I don’t want to appear rude and distrusting (yes of a person I hardly know and who I don’t trust) so I’d better say yes.’

Now there will always be people who will swear up and down that the reason why they’re asking to come over to your place is just to ‘hang out’ or that the reason why they only talk to you late at night and possibly only by text or email is because, you know, they’re The Busiest Person On The Planet ™ and if you want to catch ’em while you can, you’ve got to be prepared to meet at all sorts of unsociable hours. I smell bullshit and that kind of reasoning is actually even more of a reason as to why you shouldn’t meet, after all, if they’re so frickin’ busy, where is this going to go? Also, it’s easy to claim that this isn’t an intention and then for them to go, ‘Whoops! I can’t for the life of me fathom how we both ended up naked!’ While some people will tell you straight up what they’re truly intending in these situations, most won’t because you’re likely to say no and/or they’re trying to preserve a certain image of themselves.

Odds are that a late night meeting isn’t for cookies, cocoa and a chat. You’ll either know this through experience or just from awareness of your own boundaries. It’s one thing to be naive out of genuine lack of experience (many of us have been there including me) but it’s another thing to claim naivety due to trying to convince yourself that it’s not what it is.

You’re trying to tell me that they have absolutely no daylight or early evening time in the next week or two? What are they? A vampire? Of course you could do the whole I’m Going To Be The Exception and This Could Be One Of Those Few Times When It Really Is A Chat thing but you could just as easily steer it to meeting at an earlier time. Really. Where’s the late night fire?

If they also ask to meet at your place, that’s just very odd. The sad thing is that if you’re a People Pleaser who feels bad about saying no even when you really want or need to, you will end up agreeing against your better judgement.

Whatever happened to Stranger Danger and being a bit street smart? I’m not suggesting that we see a predator in everyone and imagine that we’re going to be chopped into little pieces and rolled up in a carpet, but if you are dating, you need to be stranger aware and you certainly shouldn’t allow, (1) your ego, (2) your libido, (3) excessive politeness (read: people-pleasing), (4) any dodgy assumptions, and (5) the most insidious and annoying – other people’s opinions and projections – to run the show.

Worrying too much about the asker’s take on things or giving too much credence to the opinions and projections of family and friends just messes with your gut.  If they’re OK with doing what you’re not, that doesn’t invalidate your choice. It’s not something that you need to explain or justify. Some people lack the experience to recognise the sexual undertone to certain types of situations and so may not understand your own judgement on the situation, and others project and are so busy taking what you may have told them about this person or just assuming that you should never leave any dating stone unturned, that they can’t fathom why you don’t say yes to every offer. Some people are totally OK with the late night thang and so may see your take as a judgement, when it’s not; it’s just your personal choice.

If the asker is used to people jumping to their beat and people being flattered to get any invitation at any time (some famous people or just those with an overinflated sense of their own importance can be like this), that doesn’t put you under obligation to accept their invitation, nor does it make you immature or prudish.

When they or certain friends or family make out as if you’re seeing the Booty Boogey Man and claim that you’re overreacting, it’s annoying, confusing, and often quite upsetting.

‘That could be your future husband!’ they wail. ‘What if they didn’t want to get into your pants and they just wanted a chat?’; ‘What if they just wanted to get to know you?’;’I can’t believe that you think that it [sex] is what I’m looking for!’ and then you feel guilty for thinking such a terrible thing and second-guess yourself and then either kick you after you’ve slept together or convince yourself that you’ve scared away the last chance saloon and kick you some more.

If somebody really wants to get to know you, they’ll meet you at a mutually agreeable time and place. Sure, you may have to work around each other’s schedules a bit but they will want you to be comfortable out of sheer conscientiousness  – they don’t need to invite themselves over to your place, especially if you haven’t met yet, because it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to work out that this has some safety concerns and may be a little bit (or a lot) premature, even if it feels as if you ‘know’ one another.

Decide what your line is on situations like these in advance.

Are you OK with chit chatting and tippy tapping with people late at night when you could be asleep or laying bricks in real life instead of building sandcastles in the sky? Are you OK with having virtual strangers over to your place or meeting them at night? Are you comfortable with ambiguous situations? If not, decline with no explanation. It’s pretty damn obvious what your reasons are. I’ve seen these situations unfold with both sexes but admittedly it’s weighted towards men. If a guy doesn’t ‘get’ why a woman who has never met him before doesn’t want to invite him over to her place and certainly not late at night, that’s a code red alert and don’t bother making it your job to educate him.

Self-awareness as well as regard and respect for others involves being aware of your own rights and those of the people whom you engage with. As grown-ups, if we are naive about aspects of our lives where we need to be street smart or we’re naive (or feigning it) about why our request for nude photos or to meet up at all hours is being declined, that is a problem. Don’t make these problems your problems by being drawn into these situations.

Your thoughts?


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196 Responses to If you don’t know or haven’t met each other yet but they’re asking to meet you late at night, it’s not for cocoa and a chat

  1. Miranda says:

    I’m in a situation that’s sort of similar to this. I started chatting with a guy from Reddit two days ago, and by that night he wanted to take me out on a date. I’m spontaneous, so I say, “Sure, why not!” It actually ended up being fun, he didn’t make any passes at me, and he insisted that he wasn’t just looking for sex. I said “Ok,” but stayed skeptical because I know how guys can be.

    Fast-forward to the next day (yesterday). We’re texting, and he keeps throwing in little sexual comments (like how his perfect Sunday would include me staying over, and lots of “naked cuddling”). I thought that was a little forward considering we barely know each other, but whatever. Then, he texts me a photo of his bed. At that point I just didn’t know what to think. Throughout all of this he kept saying how great I am, how sexy I am, how “special” I am, etc.

    He asked me to hang out with him again last night, but I declined. He sends me a heart emoticon and says that’s fine. Then, he again starts up with how sexy/smart/amazing I am. I just say “thanks” to all of this. THEN, after saying goodnight, he texts me a photo of his lips and says “this is my makeshift kiss.” Keep in mind that I’ve met this guy only once, and when we met we didn’t do anything physical other than a quick hug goodbye. We hardly know each other.

    The impression I’m getting is that he’s just trying to hook up. I feel like he’s trying to speed up the process of getting to know me so that he can get into my pants a little sooner! Two years ago I would’ve totally fallen for it, but now I just see right through the bull.

    • Sparkle says:

      Yep, he is playing you. Keep strong boundaries, until you get to know him better. Personally, I would shut him down. NC. I find that behaviour disrespectful. Lots of guys I connected with online acted similar. They disappeared after a while. They didnt like that I commanded respect.

      • sushi says:

        Miranda, Sparkle,

        I wouldnt worry about keeping my boundaries up while getting to know him better. He deserves a flush without even a polite explanation.What an immature creep.

    • Jasmine says:

      It sounds like he is complimenting you in the hope it sweetens you up enough to sleep with him. It’s just a different approach, but there are sexual overtones in his messages so it’s says it all. You can still experience this even if you have had correspondence online, had a date it normally ends up sexual. Even if he states he’s not looking for sex, they lie! Strange how you never hear from them when you decline their advances. I’m fed up with the guys I meet online.

      • Julia says:

        It seems most men online use it as a human grocery store ready to pick their next lay. Ick. I’m with you — I’m thoroughly tired of the online dating crap and the ACs and douchebags on those sites.

        • Fesitywoman says:

          Julia so well said and that is why I don’t do online dating and wouldn’t date a stranger. I’d rather get to know someone in a social setting and then decide. Since online dating is renowned for make sexual predators why do women go there? Is it in hope that one of the men is a nugget of gold? Just asking because so many women I’ve spoken to have Julia’s view and say they know they won’t meet the love of their life online.

          • Tracy says:

            Feistywoman: I think a lot of people try online dating because everyone tells them to try it…it’s the way everyone is meeting people, etc. Or they throw out the crap statistics that the online companies spew on TV ads; you know, one out of five relationships start online, yadda, yadda, yadda. What they DON’T tell you in the commercials is how long those relationships last!

            For a very long time I did online because I honestly didn’t have a way to meet a prospective partner. But after several years of meeting nothing but the most emotionally vacant men, fast forwarders, future fakers, narcissists, and disappearing men, I have thrown in the towel with online. If I never meet that ‘special someone’, so be it. It’s not worth the trouble of dealing with these nutcases. And I’m not falling for that crap line, “You have to kiss a lot of frogs…”

        • Feistywoman says:

          Julia so well said. That is why I don’t do online dating.

    • Tinkerbell says:


      NC this fool, now! A grown man with any maturity and self respect DOES NOT behave like that. He’s not worth another thought.

  2. free voice says:

    I haven’t read it yet, but I can feel it, oh yes, puts my hair on end.
    I like you Nat, straight up, no bullshit…! X

  3. finallygettingit69 says:

    It happened to me, actually today through a Facebook message. A guy chatting me up “Hey sexy how are you?” He’s Wanting to have a “little fun” code for NSA action. Ew. No thanks. Boundaries going up like walls on a movie set. I would have previously found it flattering, now I find it offensive and gross. Mind you I’ve never met this person in PERSON, only share a few mutual friends through Facebook. Not so much.

  4. finallygettingit69 says:

    @Miranda – wow, sending a makeshift kiss to you. Where do they come up with this stuff?! If a woman did that we’d be labeled as a psycho!

    • sushi says:


      how right you are. imagine a woman behaving like this.Women get labelled a psycho for a lot less than this.

  5. Julie says:

    Wait, there are people who respond to this behavior? Enough to need a blog post? Wow.

    I’ve been getting texted by a coworker at 2a.m. constantly lately. I’ve threatened to go to the bosses, so hopefully it stopped. My first thought was “What would make him think this would work? Has someone rewarded this behavior in the past?”

    When I run into him, I intend to call him out, and pretty angrily so

    • Spinster says:

      “Wait, there are people who respond to this behavior? Enough to need a blog post? Wow.”

      You’d be surprised. 😐

    • Sandy says:

      Julie, that’s what I wondered as well, sorry but if someone started that straight of the bat if I hadn’t even met them they would get a short sharp shift from me…haha I may have put up with alot from the AC but I haven’t completely lost my marbles!!

      • Tulipa says:

        Unfortunately, Julie, there is a need for a post like this.

        The other day I reading in the paper about a lady who was fighting for her life because she opened the door to someone she had met online and he beat her up. Allegedly it was their first meet up.
        Another point to add to this is it was not late at night it happened in the middle of the day.
        Even if we are wise enough to know it a reminder is always good.

        • lizzp says:

          Tulipa, I think I read that story too. The police were tracking down her RSVP contacts to try and discover the perpetrator. Apparently she invited him to her home right off the bat in the middle of the day (neighbours at work). She was lying in her home, bashed with serious life threatening injuries for I think two or three days and was discovered by a postal worker delivering a parcel who looked through a window or something when she didn’t answer the door. Apparently her work, family and frienship situation was such that no-one had missed her for those couple of days and she would likely have died in her front room if not for the delivery guy.

      • sushi says:


        me too because if they are so obvious it seems a no brainer. The worst for me was when they mess with your brain and are half good half bad variety, you know the ones with “potential” that make you feel like you are going crazy and can`t judge anything. My daughter is going through some seriously mindf**king situations with her boyfriend right now and is in the stay or go limbo, and it brings it all back now and making me feel anxious. It is so painful to watch someone you love being yanked about and manipulated and so unhappy and losing confidence.She says her brain feels shred to bits and is worried she is overreacting because he told her she is oversensitive.I say don`t let anyone ever tell you you are oversensitive, that is BS. Sorry Nat, this is off topic now.

        • Maeve says:

          Sushi–I think one of the hardest lessons for any of us to learn is that when someone makes us feel confused, crazy or self-doubting it’s a sign to walk away. It’s as painful to see someone else go through that as to have it happen to yourself. It’s great that she has your support as a reminder to trust herself.

          • sushi says:


            yes, feeling like that is enough to leave the situation, she says that her gut is telling her enough but she is in the self doubt mode already, I wish I could help her but all the talks we had about it have thrown me back in my self doubting mode too. Ultimately it always is a case of if it walks like a duck…and trust your gut above anything else.

        • Sandy says:


          I’m sorry to hear that your daughter is going through this..it seems to hurt more when it is someone you love dearly, I know it’s easy to give advice but until that person comes to the conclusion themselves all you can do is be there for her, big hugs to both of you.

          • sushi says:

            Sandy, thank you and yes, absolutely but I feel so guilty and responsible, that maybe if I gave her a better example….ect. For the moment she is also getting advice from her friends and you wouldn`t believe what. One of her friends walks around on eggshells and feels trapped in her relationship- in mid twenties with no kids!(in her own words) and her mum told her well, relationships are not a walk in the park.What!!!!! Now my daughter is repeating this…relationships are never perfect.They are not , of course but they shouldn`t be reducing you to mush.

  6. Sandy says:

    I actually met the ex Ac on a dating site..sigh..we didn’t e-mail much due to him not having a computer (he was using his sisters, she decided it would be cool for him to meet somebody that way) so phone numbers were exchanged straight away…and hey ho he blew me away with how attentive and charming he was…although now looking back he was quite pushy and at one stage I did tell him to back off a bit, that he was coming on a bit too strong and boy did that make him chase me, I was a bit wary as I didn’t want a long distance relationship, but he was very “persausive” I guess is the word, should have listened to what my gut was telling me even then :-( could have saved quite a few years heartache.
    Soooo not on line dating again thats for sure, I know there are genuine men on there (well thats what they all seem to say ha lol) but I think I will do it the old fashioned way (if at all) and meet someone through friends etc

    • DunrobINE says:

      Sandy…beware meeting people through friends….and read Nat’s post on Stranger Awareness. Assclown’s often have lots of “social proof” that they are great guys and sometimes come highly recommended by unknowing friends who know nothing about. They look great on the surface and hide their shady shenanigans behind closed doors. Just sayin’….cause I ignored my spidey senses in a case like this because there was so much social proof….again not trusting myself…how could my gut possibly be right when others (even my best friend) hold him in such high regard? I don’t think there is one safe way to find a mate…and avoid trouble….except by learning about yourself, your patterns…and listening to your gut…and of course, as the post demands – stay away from late night cocoa! :)

      • Sandy says:

        Dunrobine, my ex AC was very well known by his friends for how he treated women, strange thing is they never give any of us a heads up..bro’s before ho’s apparently…but in saying that, he did have a very different way of being in social situations compared to his private persona, although as he gets older it seemed harder and harder for him to keep that pleasant side going, one of his good friends actually asked me if he was bi-polar, they are seeing a side of him that I saw but they never did.
        Haha think I will be staying away from late night cocoa for quite a few years to come!!

        • DunrobINE says:

          Sandy…sometimes the sad truth is that even when you do give someone the head’s up, they don’t believe you! The AC I was involved with had a penchant for secretly being involved with 2 women from the same family at the same time. When I suspected he was involved with my sister-in-law (and he denied it), I went to her to warn her…but sadly jealousy, competition and the belief that she would be the exception to his rule won out! She didn’t want to believe me. Some of these things Natalie teaches us about go really deep and take awhile to teach. For some of you, the lessons were learned early and quickly. We all have different life experiences and our evolutions happen at different paces. There are woman reading this who haven’t yet developed the strength to stick with No Contact. They read about it. They try it. They fail. And eventually they will get it and it will be easy. But there is a learning curve here. In a previous post, someone talked about the movie “The Matrix”….I could completely identify with that….I feel like Neo…unplugged from the Matrix…and I can see people who are still plugged in living some kind of pseudo-life…learning…learning…learning…and hopefully, one day, unplugging. If you have a sense that when you read this stuff, Nat is preaching to the converted, then you’re unplugged or on your way :)

  7. Spinster says:

    Ahhhh… I remember those days. I never slept with anyone as a result, but I fooled around a bit with 1 or 2 people. I was genuinely naïve, thinking they just wanted to “hang out”, and since I had no thoughts of fooling around, I assumed that they didn’t either. (They were usually friends too, which – looking back – probably made me feel more at ease with them, as opposed to how I’d feel with a random guy.)

    Hilarious yet sobering, looking back. Thank goodness for age, wisdom and college roommates who looked out for me (and I, them).

  8. noquay says:

    Nope, no one I have “just met”, especially on line, even knows where I live, let alone is gonna show up at 11 pm as this old lady turns in at around 9 pm. Like a previous commenter, I cannot believe someone would be taken in by such behavior, maybe when I was, say 15, but not anytime since.

  9. Maeve says:

    Ok–so I have no problem identifying the sexually overt stuff, like wanting to hang out late at night before you even know what the other even looks like. But where I’ve gotten tripped up lately is getting friendly with guys from my dance place who invite me to practice at their homes. I’ve had 3 guys pull this on me so far and I still don’t know what’s going on. I obliged one and he was harmless but hoping, the second was the dud I dissed on this blog numerous times and never took up his offer, the 3rd is a guy I’ve become quite friendly with, who gives me rides to dance class. He’s newly widowed and he keeps fishing and saying things like “I’m old enough to be your grandfather.” He said that in the context of: It would be great if you came over and practiced dancing (and in the summer we can go kayaking), but I don’t intend romance because I’m old enough to be your grandfather (which isn’t exactly true).

    I tend to take this at face value. Am I clueless too?

    I don’t feel particularly vulnerable because I’ll slap anyone’s face who tries to get fresh with me….grrrrr. lol!

    • Elgie R. says:

      Yeah..you’re a little clueless, Maeve. His “I’m old enough to be your grandpa” line is a feeler for how you feel about bonking older men. If you stroke his ego with a “You look good!” or “You’re not old!” comment, he will be looking to bed you ASAP. He will be looking for that regardless, but he’ll have more confidence if you stroke his ego.

      • Maeve says:

        It did cross my mind that he was putting out feelers, but leave it to me to overthink it into oblivion.

        Well, I’m going to have to make it very clear I’m not looking for romance right now and don’t do casual sex.

        He just lost his wife, I’m not going to be his comfort doll. Next!

        • Tinkerbell says:


          Elgie is right. Be more skeptical with them all as to their intentions. I would not be going over to any man’s home who I recently met at dance class. I love dancing, but not enough to compromise my good judgement and personal safety. Nooooo!

          • Maeve says:

            Tinkerbell, yeah. I hadn’t even thought about personal safety, I doubt he’d hurt me. But I am rankled by the lack of respect and self-serving bs. Thanks to this blog and community for helping me stay honest about it.

            I have to stop being nonchalant about situations where someone is fishing around for sex. Admittedly playing dumb has served me well, but it’s still annoying. :(

            • Allison says:


              Its not only sex that I would be concerned about!

              Please go to a public place in the future.

              • Maeve says:

                Allison–I realize some women here have talked about going into strangers’ homes and being harassed and that puts us into protective mode. So I appreciate your concern.

                However, I’ve gotten this far in life without any mishaps, so I don’t think I need any guidance in that respect. I don’t randomly go to men’s homes alone.

                To give it some perspective, these are guys I’ve come to know through a small community of dancers and I naively thought an invitation to practice dancing at their house meant exactly that. I’ve been in enough situations in the past where it did mean exactly that. However, this time around, I think these guys are pushing for something more. I live in a small community and their asses would be in jail and their reputations ruined in a minute if I were harmed. It’s not a question of physical danger. It’s a question of intention and their not being upfront. I’m pretty clear on that.

                • Tinkerbell says:


                  I still think you’re too trusting. It’s just not safe to be ALONE with him. It. Just. Isn’t. If you were going to have even one FRIEND with you, it’s much better. Don’t you realize that crimes are committed by policemen, mayors, government officials, etc. They obviously did not place much importance on getting caught and being jailed or having their reputations tarnished. I don’t know where you live but things happen anywhere you happen to live. Don’t be so naive. You just said you have to stop being so nonchalant about matters of sex. You’re doing it again, here. Whether it’s on his mind, or not, it’s just not smart to put yourself in that position. If he did get a bit too familiar you don’t want to have to refuse the attention in his own home when you’ve already put yourself in a position of receiving it. Men consider that teasing. At the very least, you’d look foolish assuming he accepted the “No”. Elgie, Allison and I are telling you don’t do it. But, if you’re that gung ho about it, knock yourself out.

                  • Allison says:

                    Yes, Tink!!!!1

                    Also, most rapes are not committed by strangers.

                    Only takes once, but its your safety.

                  • Maeve says:

                    ummm…I’m not sure where I said I was going to his house?

                    I’m not sure why people are reading way more into this sitch than what’s there, perhaps it’s the way I told it. So I think I’ll drop it. Thanks.

                    • Tinkerbell says:

                      Maeve dear,

                      Don’t feel hurt. We just want to protect you. If you read back your post, you will see that you DID indicate there was a possibility of going over to his house. Plus you defended your position in response to our input. I can’t repeat what you said in quotes at this time, but you will see why we got the message that you were certainly considering it. We’re just telling you “No, don’t do it, not smart or safe.” Sorry honey, we don’t want to make you feel badly, just want you to be careful.

                    • Maeve says:

                      Tinkerbell, somehow I can’t reply to your post…but yeah, you’re right–at one point earlier I was mulling going to his house and definitely changed my mind based on feedback I got here.

                      I think it just turned into semantics when I said safety wasn’t an issue in this sitch. I guess you have to know this guy. If I were to tell any of my friends I refused to go to his house alone for safety reasons (especially one friend who knows him quite well) they’d burst out laughing.

                      In this case, and probably in most others, the reason not to go is that it sends the wrong message to the man in question. That’s where I’ve been in denial. Big time.

                    • Maeve says:

                      ok–I can see how people got the wrong idea. I didn’t specifically state in my posts that I wouldn’t be going to his house but thought I was clearly indicating it with my fussing about his intentions blah blah blah. I sometimes think people can read my mind by my implied wording and then am confuddled when I’m made aware of what I’ve REALLY said. lol! Sorry about that ladies, my bad.

  10. max says:

    The Internet is PIG Land – I literally get penis pics all the time from people I Don’t even know. When this stuff first happens you are like WHAT??????? I have zero tolerance for stupidity now – and I encourage WOMEN everywhere to FLUSH – because for many of these guys they just want a lay and they will lay just about anything.

  11. Revolution says:

    Great post as usual, Miss Natalie. It’s a sign of the times that this can be a topic that your readership relates to. But timely it is.

    Though that dude in the drawing with his mock turtleneck and drag queen eyebrows wouldn’t make it past my threshold for cocoa and a chat. 😉

  12. DunrobINE says:

    I think we learn a lot from experience and some of us are extremely naive AND ignorant AND way too trusting. And we were never taught many of these things, don’t have good stranger awareness or boundaries. I’ve learned so much from this site…and can see how my ignorance and naivete about a lot of things contributed to being caught up with an assclown. It was my experience with an assclown that taught me to trust myself….to trust my gut. A huge lesson for me. A gift. We are evolving all the time. I am so grateful for this site. I have so much to learn still. This post reminded me of Natalie’s previous one about The Outrageous Principle – in the past, I have been so blindly trusting of people, that any gut feeling (spidey senses) I had would be pushed aside and I would give others the benefit of the doubt. Somewhere along the way, I learned that and I had to unlearn old habits. Sometimes, these lessons are learned not from just reading about them…but by learning from experience. Maybe Natalie’s writings will prevent some problem situations from arising (that would be nice)….or maybe they will help people learn about themselves after the fact. Who knows? But I am so grateful for this site….so much truth here.

  13. Anna Savage says:

    great article! Yes. How about “come over and do a screen test for a movie, at midnight?” I can’t believe a guy even said that to me once

  14. Alyssa says:

    Has anyone here ever been in a successful relationship which started out as a friendship? My first relationship was a disaster. I lost my virginity to him on the first date (I was in my 20’s and was only somewhat naieve back then) because I honestly thought he was the “one”. Fast forward five years and I’m just now stepping off of this emotional rollercoaster. I’m ready to end this relationship and be happily independent, but wondering if the next time a charming suitor comes along, I should play the “friends first” card? Normally if I choose this option they oblige but lose interest in maintaining a friendship when they meet a girl who is willing to satisfy them sexually. I’m starting to believe that all men want, for the most part, is sex. That and someone to cook and clean for them. Has anyone here had a successful relationship which started out as a friendship?

    • Maeve says:


      I’ve felt much safer in relationships that started out as friendships. I’ve known people who got married with this dynamic. Basically, it’s similar to a long courtship but sexual feelings are put on hold. The other way to go about it is to say upfront that you intend to take things slow and keep it at friends level until you get to know each other better. The only difference there is a clear understanding of potential romance. Just be sure to say what you mean and mean what you say.

      Both of these types of delayed relationship weed out the idiots fast. Not all guys are sex-crazed users. But you definitely need a method for weeding out losers.

    • JustHer says:


      I think it is safer and more comfortable if you are friends with someone before you date them, but it can go either way.

      I dated my best friend, who then turned out to be an AC (who knew?) and now I feel like I lost not only my closest friend, but the guy I thought I was going to end up with forever.

  15. Lilia says:

    I´ve had quite some late night offers from virtual strangers as well but today I had the weirdest encounter with some old guy in front of my appartment building which I think relates to the situation described in this post.

    I was just plucking letters out of the mailbox (which stands in a small garden by the front door), minding my own business when this man aproached me. He wanted to know who was the owner of a car parked right next to us in the street because he wanted to buy it for his son. I said I didn´t know so he pressed matters asking if it was from someone in my building? And do we have a caretaker he could ask? (we don´t but I told him he was out)And when should he come back to talk with the caretaker?

    So then, to change the subject, I asked him why he was so interested in buying a car that clearly wasn´t for sale.
    He told me he had bought many cars like that in the past, and that many people have cars they don´t need and want to get rid of and why was I so suspicious, surely if I was suspicious it was because I tend to mingle with untrustworthy people?
    He insisted that he had bought many cars that weren´t for sale, just by talking to their owners.

    BR-educated me told him I was very happy for him but that I couldn´t help him and that I thought it WAS strange to go after a car that wasn´t for sale, with such a large used-cars market out there.

    By then he had become paranoid and got into his own car, which he had parked next to the one he wanted to buy.
    He acted really offended, told me to write down his licence plates if I wanted to but I told him I wasn´t interested.
    Then, once he started his own car, he pulled over close to where I was, opened the window and showed me a roll of $$$. I had never seen so much money in someone´s hand in real life.
    He said “See? I do have money. You didn´t need to be so suspicious” to which I replied “a roll of bills? as if that isn´t suspicious!”. And luckily he moved on then.

    I don´t know what this guy´s deal was, I only know that my boundary was not to give a total stranger information about my neighbours and our lack of a caretaker (which where I live makes a building easier to break into). In the past, naive me would´ve been bullied or BS-ed into giving him whatever he was after.

    Mind you, I live in a pretty safe area of this city, and there are no gangsters that I know of. But anyway, I felt very happy with myself for having chased this creep away like that.

    • Maeve says:

      Lilia, he sounds like he’s either paranoid from drugs or has a mental disorder. Either way, best to be nice and disengage fast.

  16. Suzie says:

    It’s like I tend to read the post a little late.. I met a guy online he was very attentive online he wanted to keep chatting.. I didn’t want to waste time he seemed like someone I would want to meet so we met after 3 days of chatting it seemed perfect so for 2 weeks after he never tried to meet up again but he did always text me in the morning good morning text. It was nice so because I was interested I invited him out in public places he always declined because of work.. But long story short guess where he was more interested in visiting yup my house…. I fell for it… I knew better but in my mind the connection I had felt seemed real.. I don’t know why I keep making the same mistakes am I really that Lonely it’s borderline to becoming a sickness.. Oh yea no more good morning text.. It’s my fault I want to learn.. Ugh.. I knew but I wanted to believe otherwise that he could be my next boyfriend.. :( lesson learned..

    • Allison says:


      If a man does not want to meet you in a public spot, it’s a problem.

      You’re putting your safety at risk!!!!

    • Tinkerbell says:


      He may have been married. They prefer to see you at your place for obvious reasons, don’t want too much public exposure.

  17. Magnolia says:

    I was that naive. The ex used to come over after 10pm or pick me up at that hour. Thing is, I am a night owl and during my PhD work I often was up until 2, 3 am so I figured “he’s just a night owl like me!”. We often went for dinner late, but in Vancouver that meant going to the same one or two restaurants over and over (the town shuts down at 9pm so that people can go cycling in rolling phalanxes of primary-coloured lycra at dawn). We even used to go for runs at 10 or 11 pm.

    But it actually still felt weird to conduct a significant portion of our relationship so late at night. It made me feel like a call girl.

  18. FX says:

    Hallelujah! I’ve been avidly reading BR for about 2 years and finally there’s a post to which I cannot relate. LOL

    I would never give a stranger I met on the internet any info beyond my first name and cell phone number and would only meet them in a public place even before BR. I don’t even answer calls late at night from men I’m actually dating IRL. I may give them the benefit of the doubt for chancing their arm depending on what else I know about them but I file it under useful info/yellow flag behavior.

    Another ploy is the “I have a business dinner but can meet for drinks later.” Again, from men I’ve met in real life but still no, just no. If you can’t make a plan for a real date, I’m not available. End of. I flushed one this way pronto thanks to channeling my inner NML, thank goodness!

    I used to play fast and loose when I was an EU but after my involvement with the NPD AC and a few more years of wisdom, I am much more protective of myself. I don’t owe anyone anything that makes me uncomfortable. I’m not missing out on anything good if I have to compromise my comfort.

    • Selkie says:


      “If you can’t make a plan for a real date, I’m not available. End of.”

      Yes, I think that’s a wise guideline via online and in person both. I got asked out in person recently, so we exchanged #’s and talked on the phone and texted briefly but he didn’t follow through on an actual date. I decided he’s a flake and I’ve lost interest. I’m just not into this kind shit anymore. In the past it may have triggered my ‘pick me’ mode but today, yawn, I’m bored by it. Flush. Ya know what? My inner peace is still intact. I just listened to the cues and acted accordingly. It’s best to trust your gut and don’t let the fantasy of wanting a partner blur the lines.

      As far as a man suggesting we meet up late at night, forget it. It’s such an obvious ploy to get laid, when all other avenues have failed for the evening. If any of you like being put in the deeply discounted bin of good enough, go for it. I’m not about to be someones blow up doll.

      • Einstien says:

        “I’m just not into this kind shit anymore.”

        Bravo, Selkie! Well said!

      • Tinkerbell says:


        It’s so great to have learned so much from BR and wherever else our quest for self fulfillment has lead us. Generally knowing what is actually happening instead of dreaming or reconstructing what we would like to be true is so much more gratifying. Isn’t it?

    • Tracy says:

      Oh, the old ‘business dinner’ line. Very prevalent in the NYC area. It’s amazing to me that when I think of my friends in NYC, who have high powered jobs, they rarely have business dinners! I always had to laugh whenever I got that line, because I wanted to say, “Dude, that shit went out during the days of Mad Men.”

      In my view, that line should be translated as, “I have a 6 o’clock drinks date, and I’m hoping she’ll exit by 9, so then we can meet up and I’m hoping since it’s late and you will be drinking, your guard will be down and I’ll get some.”

  19. FX says:

    I just want to add that “online dating” is a misnomer. The idea is to get offline and meet on an actual date ASAP. If a man wants to exchange more than a few emails and doesn’t live within 30 minutes of me – in traffic – I’m immediately out. I also only respond in any way to a very small fraction of men online. I make my parameters clear (in a pleasant and humorous way) so I don’t feel the least bit concerned for not giving any response to those who disregard them. Among mine are I don’t do coffee or lunch, don’t want a pen pal, am not interested in a religious conversion and, am clear about my distance requirements. Also, if a man has a picture without all his clothes, in a sleeveless shirt, with his car, on a motorcycle, has a user name with a sexual innuendo, etc., I don’t even read his message. Your things that turn you off may be different than mine but we all have our filters in real life, too.

    • Tracy says:

      FX, excellent filters, but I have noticed that many guys don’t read profiles, they just send random, very vague emails that give no indication that they actually read your profile. But as you say, if they can’t even respect your parameters, why even respond?

    • sushi says:

      FX, you are on fire! With those parameters you`ll be just fine :) brilliant

  20. Allison says:


    That guy is only looking for a piece of ass! If comments make you uncomfortable, they’re inappropriate! Get rid of this creep!

  21. Tanzanite says:

    Hi Natalie/everyone

    Does it matter what time of day it is ?

    You know when you say things like ” if he tells you he’s no good ” believe him .The AC told me he was great and I believed that.

    I had been chatting to him over 6 months before we met.Even after we met it was another 3 months before anything happened.

    The one thing for sure is I never got any late night calls and never got an invite to his house.It was always at mine ,always during the day,usually on a Tuesday and it wasn’t for cocoa and a chat.

    The biggest reason I allowed this to carry on as long as it did was I was naive ( trusted him ) and my life was hanging by a thread financially so his crumbs looked like a loaf.

    I don’t believe in love anymore and it seems such a high price to pay.The good thing is, none of my future dreams involve a man anymore.

    The point i’m making is it doesn’t matter what time of day it is,if he’s just a user.

    • DunrobINE says:

      Good points Tanzanite. I know the feeling of not believing in love anymore. But after feeling all my anger and the underlying sadness, I realize that for me, it is only that kind of ego-based love that I no longer desire. When I’m ready for a relationship, I hope to find a spiritual man with values that go beyond the surface because that is where I’m at. And I am lucky to belong to a great community of people into personal and spiritual growth….where I see people grow beyond their patterns and nurture love that grows and heals and evolves. I hope that you have enough belief in love to just start with yourself and LOVE YOU. Follow your dreams :)

      • Tanzanite says:


        Thank you for your kind words.

        I have never loved myself in my whole life more than I do today.

        It a bit like being in neutral.It’s safe where I am,my new comfort zone.I have been single for 5 years and it’s peaceful.

        I wouldn’t say no to a decent bloke if one came along.

    • Sophie says:

      Good point Tanzanite. I don’t think that it matters what time of day they try to come over, but inviting themselves over late at night is definitely more dodgy.

      In my experience with the ex AC, “can I come over” usually meant “I have no money to go out so can we just crash at your place and watch tv, eat your food, and screw”. I just felt like a body who kept him company – there were certainly not the intelligent discussions over cocoa that I wanted! Users are users all day long.

      An important reminder at all stages to listen to our intuition and say no when it feels/seems sketchy.

      Tanzanite – please don’t give up on love. It will come around again but in a better form!

      • Sophie says:

        A little off topic, but I’m so angry about this I just need to rant: my ex AC, who ditched me without warning for another woman after 4 years of flip flapping and switching between girlfriend and “friend” whenever it suited him, told me “I can go out with anyone I want”. This is when I showed surprise and upset after he mentioned the new woman out of the blue.

        It’s funny that more that his new girlfriend, what makes me most angry is his use of “going out” like he is suddenly taking this woman out on the town like a man of substance! We rarely “went out” – our relationship consisted of him coming over and crashing, and when we did “go out” I usually paid (so embarrassing). His idea of a fun date was using me in my house. Ugh.

        • JustHer says:


          See it for what it is, a useless has-been trying to make himself feel better with the whole “you are amazing, but I just don’t want you” escapade.

          He may have realised that he needs to take his head out of his ass and start making more of an effort to entertain women. Or he may be trying to get her into bed quicker than the nights-only strategy would have done.

          Forget him and enjoy your free time by doing things he never did with you!

        • Tanzanite says:


          I have never mentioned this before but after I left my marriage to be with the AC he lost interest.

          I was so upset I left work at midnight and arranged to meet him.He didn’t show up,switched his phone off and I had to walk the 30 minutes home alone in the dark.There wasn’t much improvement after that.A few weeks later I received a text meant for another woman saying how much he would like to have sex with her.

          Do you think he was sorry ?

          No,he inferred it was my fault because I was pushing him on meeting his friends, family and visit to his home ( after approx 18 months of being his fall back girl) He then said this woman who he hadn’t known for 5 mins doesn’t ask to come to his house or think he is up to something because she hasn’t been,inferring that made her better than me.This woman was also married and saw him whilst her husband was working away.He also thought her husband knew. (without conscience )

          He was like a dog with 2 dicks.

          She soon got fed up with him.

          The point i’m trying to make is they love playing us off against each other.They actually enjoy it.

          I doubt he is ‘going out’ with her(unless she is paying ) it’s all to make you feel inferior and him ‘ biggin himself up’.

          I had zero self esteem after him.Please don’t let that happen to you.

          Let her have him.

          • Sophie says:

            Thanks Tanzanite. I’m sorry that you had to go through this and that while everyone’s story is different the same themes keep emerging. It’s like it’s the same man over and over!

            My ex AC always kept bigging himself up – he was a big talker, changed his mind about every big plan he made, always made himself out to be better than he really was. I feel shame and anger for staying with him so long even though his constant bragging made me ill! What scares me is that I knew what he was and that he annoyed me, but I still stayed for the very fleeting moments of enjoyment.

            Thank goodness for no contact – I’m starting to feel normal again not having to hear his nonsense talk!

            • Tanzanite says:


              We do,but I wish I was wiser before the event.

              Tinks,was it you who said a while back that you were afraid of disagreeing with people in case they didn’t love you anymore ? I meant to respond at the time but I was busy with my new course.

              This is my personal opinion.It wouldn’t make me love someone less if they disagreed with me as long as they don’t mind me disagreeing with them occasionally.

              Hope you are well

              • Tinkerbell says:


                Yes, that was me. You remembered that? Wow! I still have that problem a little but I think I’ve switched more to the opposite position, now. I’m tend to be overly concerned about possibly being disrespected and on the alert to standing up for myself. I guess it’s an act of over compensation for my former reluctance to make someone angry with me. I still struggle with needing constant reassurances that I am wanted, needed and loved which I know stems from my Mom’s lack of nurturing.

                Another poster on here told me awhile back that during our particular journey to greater self esteem and self love, we’re sometimes like a pendulum that sways back and forth to the the opposite extremes, but eventually with time, increased confidence and inner peace we settle in the middle and remain there, for the most part. I like that metaphor.

                • Tanzanite says:


                  I can relate to you in many ways.Mum’s lack of nurturing is at the root,overcompensating is a symptom too.I over compensated with my children.I wanted them to know they were loved and respected and forgot about myself to a certain extent ( righting wrongs of the past) no regrets,that’s what we are supposed to do, and they are great young adults now.I think it’s hard to know whether a battle is worth fighting sometimes. I see it as a triumph knowing things don’t bother me half as much as they used to.One difference though,I really get on well with my sister and you have spoken about a few problems with yours.You can choose your friends but you can’t choose your family but if I could,I would have chosen my sister.

                  Isn’t it nice when you can disagree with someone one and they don’t think any less of you, and vice versa?
                  Good or bad, they accept who you are.It only makes me like them more, even though it may look like the opposite.

                  It is all about finding your balance again.

                  • Tinkerbell says:


                    My sister and I also are exceedingly close. She is always there to support me with my trials and tribulations. We just have fun together, doing nothing but chatting. I’m over giving with my daughter and grandchildren. I try to be their EVERYTHING, especially since they live long distance. I spend a fortune on “stuff” (usually electronics) because I can’t be there to give the affection that I missed getting as a child.

            • Tanzanite says:


              Do you have AC immunity now ? I think I do.

              As for them ‘ biggin themselves up’ just remember this.

              True self confidence doesn’t scream for attention.

      • Tinkerbell says:

        That “coming over” to your place most or all of the time gets old pretty darned fast. That’s what I hated about the affair a few years ago. Of course, he didn’t want to be seen with me in a situation that looked like a date, so he never took me on a date. I was so caught up in the physical gratification that I had blinders on when it came to anything else.

    • Allison says:


      Sounds like he was married!

      • Tanzanite says:


        I don’t know if he was married but he had a child that overlapped with being with me, so he could have been.( found out later)

        He probably had a few relationships whilst pretending to be with me but one thing I know for sure.He is a liar without conscience.

        • Allison says:


          I don’t know how some of these folks keep all their dalliances straight!

          • Tanzanite says:


            They have had plenty of practice but they always slip up.I really think they get a buzz from it.

            It causes so much damage.It makes me sad when I see people going through the same but at the time I internalised it and never once thought it was him,especially when he was telling me it was my fault.

            • Tinkerbell says:

              Allison and Tanzanite.

              We understand what’s really going on NOW, don’t we? Thank goodness!

  22. noquay says:

    The man that wound up being my husband has I began as longtime friends. We met first in ’84, at a dance. He had a partner, I too was in a LDR. We’d see each other at music, social justice/environmental events. We worked together on a coupla projects in the early 90s and I started seeing him at folk dances alone so I’d dance with him. We really got together at the end of a project, remodeling a building as a youth center. Keep in mind I wasn’t at my best at this time; was supporting my dad who was actively alcoholic and had lost his 3rd marriage, farm, and business. I often did community stuff because I couldn’t go to the lovely home I lived in and deal with his drinking, television, nagging about my lack of household conveniences. My ex stood up to him and eventually became almost friends. When my dad moved out, I asked ex to move in. We had 12 good years and probably still would be together had I not had to work in the west. This is how meeting a guy is SUPPOSED to work; do things that are supporting your values, meet like minded folk, have mutual acquaintances so you can find out the persons history/issues/social proof and know for damned sure he is single. On line removes all this so it’s a sort of crap shoot with total strangers.

    • Tinkerbell says:

      Absolutely, Noquay. You know my girlfriend who is engaged has encouraged me to go online to meet someone else. Petie is basically a very good friend but I need more, know what I mean? Well, as much as I hate online, I’m actually thinking about it. I’m much smarter now than I was when I was online a few years ago, and FX’s filters are very wise for me to keep in mind. My girlfriend has offered to help me with my profile since I’d need to a new one. I don’t know. Things are quiet, peaceful and comfortable right now, so I’m not sure I care to be bothered with OLD foolishness. I would just like to meet some one who could satisfy my needs, sexually. But, I don’t want drama that may come along with it. Ho hum.

      • Sandy says:


        I am the same, things are so quiet and calm that even though I miss having sex and cuddles and just that someone special in my life I really cannot be fecked…each time I have thought yep I should do something about this being single status I find I can’t be bothered, being drama free for the first time in five years is actually really freeing, I have a strange feeling I am going to be single for quite a few years to come and I actually feel happy about it :-)

      • Pauline says:


        Why not give it a go? You don’t have to buy into any BS from any guy and you never know who you will meet one day.
        You have your head in the right place and if you don’t meet anyone special it won’t derail you.

        • Tinkerbell says:

          You’re right, Pauline. I’m in a far better place now than I was back then. I won’t allow myself to spend literally HOURS looking at guys. Instead, I can set a timer and stop when it alarms. I’m no longer desperate, plus I’m forewarned and forearmed, which I clearly was not in the past. I’m such a champion for keeping hope alive. Sometimes, I should apply that to myself. Thanks.

  23. Angelface says:

    Ha Ha, this can happen any time of day. I had Thanksgiving dinner with a man I had been talking with for five weeks. I’ve been busy on a home renovation project and Thanksgiving was the best free day for both of us.

    As I cooked the meal and we both paid 1/2 for ingredients…. When he realized I wasn’t going to have sex with him he acquired an attitude. By time the Delicious dinner was ready he buried his face in the plate, scraped each bite with his fork on his teeth!!! No conversation even though I tried. Ha.

    And besides that: He kept both hands in his hair scratching his scalp as we talked on the sofa at his place prior to me starting to cook. GROSS!!!! Yeah right, Like I’d let him touch my private parts with those mits??! Another ridiculous man, another ‘practice date’ for me. Peace Out Ladies! :)

    • Allison says:


      Your first meeting was Thanksgiving? Was it just the two of you?

      • lizzp says:

        I can’t remember which post it was but only a couple of weeks back. I read a comment from someone who mentioned that on a first meet up with online guy she had at some point taken up on his offer and ridden pillion with him on his motor bike! The poster had met the person at a public place and taken the ride from there. I remember wanting to comment at the time, however it was off topic. Hope that poster is reading this thread.

      • Tinkerbell says:


        Gee whiz, you spent Thanksgiving cooking dinner for a stranger? You didn’t know him that well, yet as talking for 5 weeks doesn’t qualify him for that privilege. And alone with him? Kinda risky behavior, don’t you think?

  24. Sanntay says:

    Admittedly, I’ve allowed someone to come over “after hours” before, but fortunately, we just kissed, there was no sex to be had. And later on when I discovered that this 31 year old had a toddler sized penis, I was so happy that we didn’t. Besides that, once he unfolded, I discovered that he was a lying, manipulative, entitled jerk!! I’m of the mind now where I make it clear that if you are unable to see me before sundown, or during the winter months, say, before 6:00 or 7:00 pm, don’t even bother coming over. I’m not a vampire and I would much rather be out enjoying the sunshine. Of course this has labeled me as having ‘walls up’ and having ‘too many hang ups’, but the people who’ve expressed those opinions aren’t in my life anymore, and for good reason. They can save that bullshit for someone else.

    • lizzp says:

      “And later on when I discovered that this 31 year old had a toddler sized penis, I was so happy that we didn’t. Besides that…”

      Saantay, I’m fighting the urge to preface my comment with a ‘sorry’, or some other sentence that communicates that I don’t want to appear angry and confronting, however I am choosing to honour my reaction because I really think this is important and needs to be said. Please do not comment with such casual disregard about somebody else’s body parts, it comes across as sexist and rude. I find it offensive and would completely understand if men who come here to read and learn on BR also found it offensive. Commenting offhandedly about the size of a man’s penis in the context you use is, quite frankly, off. Think about it – a guy comes on here and talks about a female AC and says “and anyway as I discovered later she had small tits and her vagina was too loose, but beside that she was also x,y and z…”. Would you feel offended as a woman? I would, even if the guy was describing someone who had treated him badly. Because it says something to me about the writer…that he resorts to derogatory objectifying of a woman’s body when his back is up. Yuckkk… Natalie, I know it’s off topic but hope you will publish.

      • Tracy says:

        Lizzp, I think the point was more that these kinds of guys are so immature that the size of their penis truly means something them. I’ve had a similar experience with a guy who was a true narcissist, but I was stupid and slept with him and he did have a tiny penis. I was so aggravated by the guy and his enormous ego it seemed the only way to get his attention would be to remark on his tiny penis…it seemed that in his really self centered mind it would be the only thing that registered with him. I never did, but sometimes I wondered what would have happened if I did.

        • lizzp says:

          Tracy, sure I get that situation but if that was the point of the comment I didn’t see it. What you’re talking about, well mentioning it to him or not, who knows, it would certainly be tempting in some heat of the moment situations, especially with a boastful narcissistic type who has an over inflated sense of how great his tool is. If someone sent me a ‘dick pic’ I would want to send it right back with a derogatory ‘little dick’ comment. All that would stop me would be BR knowledge that he’d probably actually get off on the attention.

      • Sanntay says:

        Appreciate your feedback. It was truly not my intent to offend anyone by expressing my opinion, but my comments were just a reaction to the way this person treated me so I ‘offhandedly’ stated that he was a jerk AND he had a small penis. So what? I can rationalize it any way I choose, and if a man was on BR indicating that someone had hurt him, and he chose to comment negatively on her body parts that is his 1st amendment right. It would not offend me as a woman, because he is not talking about me, so I wouldn’t take it so personally. Sometimes my comments may be a bit ‘off’ or rude. Got it. Again, not my intent. Anyone who knows me would understand that my heart is in a good place and any negative comments that I provide are coming from a place of pain and/or resentment. I am human, and one of the things I love about this forum is that I can express myself sans judgement. Quite frankly I didn’t see my comment as that objectionable. I don’t take your comments as angry or confronting. You are entitled to your opinion, as am I.

        • Tinkerbell says:


          I didn’t take it seriously at all as it was not the lone focus of what you were saying. And, yes, we’re all entitled to our opinion especially when we don’t know you or who you are talking about.

          • Stephanie says:

            I agree Sanntay! Believe me when I think about some of the things my assclown has said and did to me saying he has a small penis (which he did) is nothing.

        • lizzp says:

          Sanntay, I can see why my comment made you think I was saying you weren’t entitled to your opinion, so I apologise for that. I’ve realised this isn’t the right post to discuss ideas around double standards which was what bothered me. I wish you all the best getting over the AC who has hurt you.

  25. marie83 says:

    Does the same rule apply if its a boyfriend – my ex started doing this after we had been together some time – only coming round at 10pm (granted he never got up until 3pm so it was like lunchtime for him) but I was uncomfortable with it – I work 9-5 hours and needed my sleep but also I felt like he was saying that I wasn’t worth spending a whole evening with – it would often end in a row if I refused with him saying ‘oh you can’t have one late night’ and me justifying myself or just giving in .

  26. AngelFace says:

    Oh, Here’s another of my True Date stories which includes a car chop shop, two alligators, a feeling of immediate danger, me not having sex, and me living to tell this story.

    I met the HP/Xerox repair man who worked at the University I was attending while I was standing at my brand new sports car in the school parking lot. We chatted and exchanged phone numbers. First date was at his 4-story building and he had an apartment on 3rd floor.

    First Red Flag was that he told me to park my car in the hamburger parking lot next to where he lived. I did not – I parked directly in front of his home.

    As I walked in the front door there were two separate alligator pits and a BIG Alligator in each pit. Second Red Flag and Freaking Odd for St. Louis, Missouri….

    Okay,,, rest of that floor was vacant – like a warehouse/ chop shop. Third Red Flag. I went upstairs to his apartment. We sat of sofa and talked. I think what saved my life was that I took a photo album of my First Grade Students – I was in final year of getting my BA in Education. I told him little stories of my students as we looked at the pictures. And that my car would have been seen directly in front of his home. Oh yeah, he wasn’t happy that I did not park in the public burger lot (I noticed his reaction).

    Fourth Red Flag was that he told me his nickname was Barabbas- the murderer who the crowd let down from the cross instead of Jesus. I became totally scared and kept calm and was preparing exit strategy to get out of his place alive.

    Then came the Fifth Red Flag: He said he wanted to take me upstairs and “Make Me Bark Like A Dog”. I stayed calm and was finishing with the photo book of my new students and making calm segway to leave, when next Red Flag came out that his prior girlfriend got really thin.

    So, I did get out in about 15 minutes, but it seemed to take forever. I was not tied-up in the upper room of the building and tortured and made to bark. My body parts were not fed to the big fat alligators on first level. My new sports car was not driven into first floor and chopped and sold.

    To this day I regret not having called the police and requested that the upper room be searched for any person who might have been held captive. I imagined his prior girlfriend was getting thin because he was not feeding her. It was in 1990, I was really young and just forgot about the bad date.

    Be Careful Out There Folks. And if you do go for the late night booty calls take your condoms and protect yourself from AIDS and STDs, but it is really safer to meet new dates at a coffee shop.

    • Allison says:


      You’re taking a lot of risks!!!

    • JustHer says:


      This sounds so creepy! It makes me shiver just reading it out loud. Honey, you’re so lucky it ended well for you!

    • Tinkerbell says:


      Dag, girl. How many red flags do you need before you get out of there? Don’t EVER put yourself in such a questionable and potentially dangerous situation again. You’re lucky you can talk about it like it was no big thing.

  27. Elgie R. says:

    Can’t believe the stories I am reading. You should never let a man you don’t know well come to your place NOR should you go to his place! And even some people you *think* you know – like the relative of a friend for example – should not be permitted to be with you alone at your place or his place. What are you guys thinking?

    I stayed with an AC to avoid dating horrors…but now that I realize I have to make an effort to meet someone, I am seriously considering renting an apartment to have an alternate address for *possibly* entertaining someone who has passed my extensive litmus tests! Do not want to be stalked (have been stalked in the past) or terrorized in my own home.

  28. Snowboard says:

    “Now there will always be people who will swear up and down that the reason why they’re asking to come over to your place is just to ‘hang out’ … ”

    Exactly. This is why I don’t recommend asking guys about things that seem suspicious. If they are up to something bad, they will lie about it, and their lies will only confuse you more, and play on your ‘good girl’ guilt for not just blindly trusting them. If you see suspicious behavior, keep your observations to yourself, and act on what you discern.

  29. NK says:

    Ok so this stuff I have truly learnt now. Not sure if this totally different but me and my current BF met ‘late at night’. We first met at an event. I was at this event for work because I was cultivating a relationship with a music promoter. I invited a mate to come with me but he stood me up. So I was alone. The promoter was busy and introduced me to his team, which included my current BF. They are good friends.
    We chatted and got along. He gave me lots of free beer (as it was available for them). I ended up feeling drunker than I wanted so I left earlier than intended. We swapped twitter accounts and he gave me his card. We chatted online through twitter and eventually he asked for my number. Then I asked him if he was going to a local music festival, he said yes and made a point of going with me. Then on the day he cancelled. I thought nothing of it really. So later on after the festive I was on my way to an after party, but I was going by myself. I knew people there but was still keen on going with someone else. SO I text him around 10/11pm seeing if he was up for it. He just happened to be near the party so he went to a restaurant and waited for me. So we essentially had our first date at like 12:30am in a night club. We chatted all night, to food and then went to another club nearby. Just because we wanted to hang out more. Then I invited him to my house, where we chatted until 7am and then both fell asleep in my bed (with clothes on etc..). I am not saying that this is a normal way to have a first date and it is not the same as meeting a guy online and then he invites you out at 11pm. BUT at every step I was assessing his actions and my comfortableness in my head. I am a gal who has more casual sex situations than I care to mention so I’m kinda ‘used’ to late night hooking up. I was impressed that he did not push me for sex yet he was in my bed and in my room. We hung out the next day and arranged for another date that week. We slept together on date 3. Thats me though, I am comfortable being involved like that quickly. Ive tried a whole assortment of different approaches and found that nothing compares to guy instinct.

    Just recently though, before my BF I was talking to a mutual aquintance on Facebook. We’v never met but he’s made it clear that he would like to and fancies me. I was open to it at one point because he sounded intelligent but he always seemed to have a girl and I always seemed to have a guy. Recently he bragged that he has a six pack on one of my Facebook status, I jokingly asked for evidence. He sent me a picture of his penis on whatsapp and then said is was an accident. I said I didn’t believe him. Then he asked me if I liked it. I asked him to never message me again. FLUSH.

    • NK says:

      *GUT instinct

    • simple pleasures says:

      Ok, NK, this post is disturbing and I wondered where you came from out of the blue and searched to see if you had posted in the past. Found the thread in NML’s post from July 28 2011 “Happy Birthday to me: 35 thoughts on relationships, self esteem and life. In reading through your posts you had been reading BR for 3 yrs. Had a few relationships that ended due to your cheating. You talked about having lots of drinking and promiscuous sex. Gave it up. gave up drinking and dating. Went to non successful therapy for depression, attempted suicide and now you tell us “ok this stuff I have truly learnt now”. No, I don’t think so, you are drinking and having casual sex. But I suspect you follow BR because you really don’t want this life you are living. Since your therapist didn’t work for you, since you are back to drinking and sex, may I make this suggestion, to really truly help you with recovery in your life, go to alcoholics anonymous to start with. Start somewhere because,5 years on BR isn’t therapy enough.

      • Tinkerbell says:


        You don’t post that often, but when you do they are always gems. You’re very smart, wise and get straight to the point in a dignified manner. Thank you for being there.

      • NK says:

        Simple pleasures – I am not sure exactly why you think that this post is disturbing – please explain in more detail as to why you think this.
        As for posting ‘out of blue’ sorry, is someone not allowed to post a comment whenever they want to?
        I have been in therapy since 2009 and had a few different therapists now. I suffered from depression and I was prone to seeing the worst in myself in my journey to recovery. Due to the nature of the internet I will try not to read too much into your overly judgemental comments about me, because in fact I have posted many times over the past in times of high anxiety.
        But I will correct some of what you have said now:
        ‘had a few relationships that ended in cheating’ – no that was just the one relationship. ?
        ‘went to non successful therapy for depression’ – Ive had different therapists for different issues and my last psychologist has really helped me with managing my over stimulated brain.
        It can take some time and slip ups to move through and develop. I was used to be quite impatient and impart my impatience online.
        ‘No, I don’t think so, you are drinking and having casual sex.’ – Yes I still drink at social gatherings, but no I do not get drunk as often (maybe once every few months? depends), no I do NOT continue to have casual sex. So no I do not need to go to alcoholics anonymous as I am not an alcoholic. Once for a period of time I thought I might be binge drinking but it never got to an addiction point.
        I am not sure why you think that my post confirms that I am still having casual sex……I am in a relationship that has been the most genuine relationship Ive had in a long time and has the hallmarks (as NML). I am very happy right now and I have worked hard with my therapist to become vulnerable yet protective of myself. These last 5 years have been progressive for me, as everyone knows when you start therapy and bring up the skeletons things get worse before they get better.
        My post that you are referring to Describes how I met my boyfriend. The reason I posted it was to state that despite the late night meeting this guy had honorable intentions an have proven so. When you have gone through all the learning and developed your boundaries you are able to take risks such as these. Because you feel strong enough to say ‘no im not accepting that’.
        I tell that a year ago I would not have accepted this date as I wouldnt not have felt comfortable with trust or boundaries. But now I am can take each situation individually. I also work in the music events industry and so does he. It is relatively more acceptable to socialise late at night in this way as thats how the career is. I entertain clients late at night often. Thats kinda how it is. Unfortunately it can mean that some people take advantage, but you just have to trust your gut as I said.
        I have explained my current situation enough, but I suspect that you have a perception of me not much I can about that. Remember the medium we are using is difficult to be completely objective.

    • JustHer says:


      WHAT a loser. Yes sure, it was an “accident”. How stupid do these guys think women are? Or more to the point, how stupid and dumb are they to think women will fall for this BS.

      Good thing you did what you thought was right.

      Although, I suppose he read wayyyyy too much into your “evidence” comment and thought you were flirting. Again, what a creep.

      • Tinkerbell says:

        Just Her,

        Don’t be so quick to blame the guy. SHE chose him. We do not have to engage with a-holes if we don’t want to. The problem begins with wanting to be involved in the first place. Read Simple Pleasures post.

        • JustHer says:


          I don’t know if she chose him exactly (I referred to the second guy, not her current boyfriend) i.e. the one who sent her a picture of his genitals just because she commented on something on Facebook and then lied about it being an accident.

          The bf I did not comment on at all, as I couldn’t quite make out what the point of that part of the post was, perhaps NK meant that for her late night meetings turned out not to be as bad?

          • Tinkerbell says:

            Just her,

            I agree about sending a pic of his genitals. What I meant about she chose him is that a guy can only get as far as we allow him to get with us. So actually we choose to engage with them even if we were minding our own business and here he comes along. Just because he’s looking for attention doesn’t mean we have to give it. So actually WE do the choosing. I think also there might be less of a preponderance of ACs if there were more of us with whom they could not even get to first base. In general, we put up with way too much crap and give too many chances for them to do right by us, only to have it be wasted time anyway. Sorry if I’m sounding a little bitter. But that’s just my perspective.

            • NK says:

              Hi Tinkerbell,

              Completely agree in general about accepting a hole behaviour. Im not sure where you got the ‘she choose him’ evidence from. I have spoken to this guy online as an aquintence for a while (5 months maybe) and he has asked me on a date before. I never went through with it because I had a boyfriend at the time. He has never shown behaviour such as this before, ever. Which is why when he sent me the photo I was shocked, then I said goodbye/flush. So how in fact did I choose him?
              If I kept speaking to him despite his picture then that would make me the person who is enabling right?

  30. Feistywoman says:

    Well I won’t do any late night calls ever and will never have strangers to my place either. I am very street/stranger aware and if ever a man tried to touch me up under a table he would soon wish he hadn’t, as his hand would be held up in public with some suitable comment, as I would have no compunctions about not saying anything to avoid causing embarrassment. To some extent I am a bit like Fort Knox with my safety and security but it has never let me down in life and so I shall continue. If men who see women as the next lay get away with their behaviour then they will continue. I work on the basis that unless people are made aware of their behaviour they cannot change though I do accept that some people don’t want to change. What amazes me is hwo deluded some of these clowns are and how they try to turn the situation round to make the woman look bad saying things like “she wasn’t in a good place at the time” and other BS, when they been flushed to avoid looking like the sad losers they are. My ex blamed me for his adultery yes really like I took it out of his pants and selected the women for him! He was lucky I wasn’t an aggressive woman or else he would have the middle name bobbit by now.

    • JustHer says:


      You’re too funny! I had the exact same thing with the AC. He blamed me for him cheating because the “way I treated him” meant he had to find love elsewhere, and those women made him feel “wanted”.

      Bull to the shite.

      • Feistywoman says:

        Agree on that! Mine was treated with love, care and respect but was an EU dickhead, totally deluded about what he’d done. Of course by blaming me it justified his actions and his lack of remorse indicated that all he was concerned about was getting caught and the poor me syndrome. I also know that he deliberately provoked conflict to justify his double life as he knew that if he crossed my boundaries I’d respond, rightly so and then he could demonise me. Basically he was a man child still tied with the umbilical cord. If any other woman can have a better relationship with him then good luck to her as I’m free and am not looking back. He couldn’t have found his way round a woman’s body with sat nav and got told that as well when I’d finally had enough and it all poured out. He was never in any doubt what I finally thought of him after all the emotional abuse and the killer comment was telling him that the amoeba in our pond had more of a backbone than him! I don’t regret one word of what I said to him either he fully deserved it.

        • JustHer says:

          I think I should write down these insults so that if I ever run into him I can yell them loudly (maybe in my head because I wouldn’t want to risk breaking NC).

          I never insulted the AC even when we broke up, and sometimes I really wished I had punched him, walked away and never looked back. Much more of an exciting end and I would have left with my sanity intact.

  31. Peanut says:

    E) Say, “What the fuck is wrong with you?! No. I do not know you.” And hang up! (or logoff)

  32. Peanut says:


    Thank you again so much for doing what you do.

    A few weeks ago I was followed at night in a parking lot by a man. I went ape shit fucking bananas when he opened my car door.

    I was ready to rip his throat out with my teeth. And made that known.

    Pre BR I would have froze, like I always used to in scary situations. This was by far one of the most frightening, but I held my own because I recognized I had value.

    And I am fine.

    • Peanut says:

      * I had ran to my car after seeing he was following me; he chased me. I was in my car trying to lock myself in when he opened the passenger side door. And that’s when I started screaming expletives (they do come in handy) like an effing banshee.

      • Rosie says:

        Oh my goodness, Peanut!!!- How scary!!! I’m so glad you’re ok!!! Was this at school? Were you able to identify anything unique about him that the police could identify easily?

        • Peanut says:

          It was in a drug store parking lot. I did give a description to police. It was terrifying, but I got out okay. Maybe I had all that rage in me for a reason.

      • Maeve says:

        holy crap. Thank God nothing happened. Did you report this to the police, Peanut? He’s probably serial. *shudder*

        • Peanut says:


          I called the police as soon as I got home.

          I definitely felt he was testing me.

          *Shudder on my end*

  33. AndelFace says:

    Hi, someone kindly commented on my Thanksgiving date, and it was a friend who knew this guy and made the introduction. Was not an online stranger. We did have dinner alone; both having family out of town. He was polite, cleaned his place before I arrived…. Was just not a match & he got disappointed at no sex. The other date I posted, the life endangered one, was from years ago and I assumed I could trust him- he did have a very good job. I don’t take risks with strangers anymore, and haven’t for many years.

    Baggage Reclaim has helped me in more ways of self- protection, including cutting loose UEM AssClowns, raising my standards and enforcing healthy boundaries. And acting on all flags, Yellow, red, ect. Thanks again Natalie & all good people here on BR.

    • Maeve says:

      Yellow flags. I think I need help with that. Red flags are obvious. It’s the tricky yellow ones.

      I wonder if some of us are also confused and trusting because we grew up in co-ed environments. In my case, as a teen I went camping with boys, or slept in the same room–even the same bed–and it was innocent. Something doesn’t compute between the world inside my head and the reality out there, apparently. I just don’t see why a Thanksgiving meal isn’t first and foremost presumed to be a Thanksgiving meal and not a sexual tryst.

      • Allison says:


        I don’t think it’s a great idea to spend an evening alone with someone you don’t know, even if you do have mutual friends.

        • Maeve says:

          Allison, personally, I wouldn’t have gone into that situation. I was thinking more about people you know somewhat or are in the process of getting to know.

          It was more of a rhetorical rant about how men and women are so often on a different page. Never meant for it to sound like an endorsement of intimate dinners with strangers.

  34. espresso says:

    Serious question – has anybody here ever met a keeper on an online dating site? Is there a difference when you pay a subscription fee?
    I haven’t tried it – not in the position to – and hear from my older women and men friends that it is really nasty and older women get some very nasty and offensive remarks thrown their way for being “sexual” or seeming to be.

    Somebody on BR (was it you FX?) wrote a fantastic operating manual about online dating and how to handle, flush, accept, move on, not take it to heart. I really admired that (it was on another post) but is it worth it?

    • Rosie says:

      espresso- It was lizzp who wrote the fantastic, no-nonsense manual. I can’t remember in which article but it was lizzp’s first post on BR.

    • Maeve says:

      espresso–I know a couple of people who ended up married after meeting online. One was a very young woman, around 22. The other was in her 40s and went through a slew of dates (like 3 years) before getting engaged. Have no idea if that marriage lasted. Amidst all the disasters, the only other ones I’ve seen thrive are where both are in it for the sex and don’t really care.

    • Tinkerbell says:

      Hi Espresso,

      It was probably Revolution. But I’ve written quite a bit also. I’ve met someone who remains a friend and the same for my girlfriend who’s fiance is not the one she met online, but she has another enduring friendship with a decent guy who she met online. I met a great guy but he lived extremely far away. He eventually found a “good” woman much closer logistically.You can meet some decent guys but they are few and far between and distance is an important factor. But, I would say try it for the experience. You’ve been married so many years, so it will open up a whole new world to you. You will either like it or hate it. But, it’s a new experience that can’t hurt you as long as you remain in control. Let us know about it. Tink.

      BTW, the two sites I used were paid sites.

    • Allison says:


      I have never done online, but know quite a few couples who have healthy, loving relationships. Also, they all found their partners on pay sites.

    • Pauline says:

      I’ve tried online dating twice over the last 2 years and I’ve never met anyone who I would call a keeper. Most of the guys I decided to meet were kind of ordinary, half of them didn’t look like their photo which is most cases was at least taken 10 years earlier and a few cases where they were also a lot heavier. Flush! The other half were whining about the ex, flush, how bad dating sites are and the women on them (I guess that included me), flush, and a couple of them ogled every woman who walked by, flush! One guy spent more time checking his phone every minute and answering texts, I finished my coffee, said goodbye and left, I’m not sure he would have known I was gone for at least the next 5 minutes. He did send me a text saying he had a good time and would I like to meet again, no thanks, flush!
      I never had a problem with meeting in a public place during the day or early evening and I only had one guy try to grope me and I pushed him away with a “what the hell do you think you’re doing” right in his face. He did apologise, yeah right, flush! He did ring me a few more times and I didn’t answer. I had an old mobile phone and bought a pre paid sim and that’s the only contact number I gave anyone I was contacting online. I did give them best times to call during the day and early evening, no calls after 8pm.
      My take, online dating is a good way to meet people you wouldn’t normally run across. I just didn’t meet anyone who suited me and it doesn’t mean they were assclowns or anything else. One guy I have stayed in contact with and we have lunch or dinner occasionally when time permits. I’m having lunch with him tomorrow, he’s a nice guy. He asked me out for New Year’s Eve and I said yes.
      Whether you date online or meet anywhere in real life it doesn’t make any difference, just keep your values and take some time to get to know them before you get too involved.

    • Furry White Dogs says:

      Hi Espresso,

      I posted about my experiences with online sites in the last article. I’m too lazy to retype so I’m just cut and pasting with some edits here :-)

      I have had occasional (5 in 1 year) meetings from online introduction sites (I refuse to call it ‘dating’ when you haven’t even met!)

      My experiences have been relatively positive and when I’ve felt negative it’s been because of my own assumptions and projections. I’ve made a nice friend from one meeting and the other three either didn’t go past the first date or petered out after two or three with no hard feelings on my end.

      At the moment I’m seeing a chap from contact online and have had about six lunch dates (we work close by but live quite far apart). Things seem pleasant and respectful so far and we’re taking things glacially slowly.

      I’ve learned some useful strategies from my experiences and posts here on BR, including the posts that Aryanna helpfully linked :-)

      Firstly, my profile clearly states that I’m looking for a relationship, what my values are and that I’m not interested in emailing or chatting as getting to know a person starts by meeting face to face. My initial profile photo has me looking pretty down to earth taken when I was hiking. I also filter heavily, both with the site inbuilt filters and my own screening.

      Secondly, as other people have pointed out, I don’t engage in lots of emailing beforehand. A couple of messages while trying to set a time and place and get some basic introductions out of the way is fine but much beyond that is inviting fantasy and projection (something I discovered I have to be on my guard against) I agree with Aryanna, if he/she doesn’t set up a time to meet within a few messages move on, who’s got the damn time for pen friends!

      Finally I try to have a meeting at some kind of activity or event that I’m interested in anyway. That way if the chap is a dead loss I still got to go to something fun/interesting/enjoyable. It cuts back a little on the ‘interview’ feel and there’s something else to focus on apart from the other person.

      It’s not always possible and if I have to have drinks etc then I prepare a handy ‘get me out of here’ excuse so if it’s a ho hum or not nice then I can bug out asap. I’ve made a vow never again to do ‘coffee’. That’s real interview territory and feels damn lame.

      I’m finding having the occasional meet from online to be good BR skills practice and useful material for reflection and taking to my counsellor so I learn about myself. I may not meet a keeper online but so far I have had some nice conversations and outings and made a friend.

      It’s not the be all and end all to meeting someone. I go to meetup groups and work social events and sometimes there are unsavoury or boring types there too.

      At the end of the day the BR basics – self love, clear values and good boundaries apply to all the people that cross our paths.

      • Furry White Dogs says:

        Forgot to add that the site I’ve been on is PoF and my subscription is currently free. It was paid for a while because I liked being able to tell if a contact had read my messages (an extra filtering method).

        I had a profile on OKCupid for a while but sadly there just weren’t enough people in my age range in my area. My daughter met her partner in real life but they discovered that they had chatted on OKCupid :-)

        • Tinkerbell says:


          Are these sites in the US?

          • Allison says:


            • Furry White Dogs says:

              Thanks for the info Allison. I wasn’t sure but presumed that they would be.

              I think sites are really much of a muchness and have mostly the same features. The thing I liked about OKCupid was that you could answer lots and lots of random questions about values, social etc and they could be quite telling. Re paid vs unpaid: they both have pros and cons and perhaps try a couple and see what you like. I’m on a small budget so anything exorbitant is out of the question.

              Sometimes it might be worth changing sites as Noquay suggests but beware the ‘fresh meat’ flood of attention. I’m happy to just have a profile sit on a site and see what it throws my way.

              I do think Noquay has a point about there being a limited pool of potentials in a small town, much as it is in offline circles. I ended up on PoF because it had more blokes in the small city I was going to move to. Now I’m staying in a larger city I may try another site or two out of curiosity.

              I haven’t been moved to be as proactive as Aryanna to actually message someone myself. Perhaps in the new year I may take a look and see if I’m moved to message someone.

        • Maeve says:

          FWD–You have a fantastic strategy. If I were to do online dating, I’d follow this protocol. I really can’t stand blind meetings, too stressful. But your strategy is the way to go, imo.

    • Stacey says:

      I have found one keeper online but we didn’t work out due to religious differences and I was giving my EUM a real chance…which didn’t work out.

  35. Tinkerbell says:

    It all started when he would be at my house during the day. He was a general contractor and was doing work for me. Little did I know he wasn’t just checking out the work. I was ready for physical attention and next thing you know, we’re having an affair. I didn’t learn he was married until a month into this affair. And of course, by then I was already hooked. Now, his situation was different. He would come and “see” me during the day – his work hours and then go home at night to his wife. If I saw him at night, it was for 1 1/2 – 2hrs. Just long enough for you know what but not rudely running out immediately afterward. So, in my case I became well acquainted with his regimen which had to take into account his married status. When I look back, I don’t know who that woman was. I can’t recognize her and the fact that at one time she was ME. So glad that’s over and will never happen again.

    Another guy who was much earlier in my relationship history, would see me only on certain nights. He had a girlfriend.

    Bottom line, when they have these restrictions it means they’re attached or up to no good, wanting one thing – your panties off.

  36. Tracy says:

    I was recently texting back and forth with an ex. It was remotely amusing until he started getting a little suggestive. Then he’d disappear. Whatever. Then about two weeks ago I get a text saying “I think you either want to have a one night stand with me or you just want to go at it for a while.” In other words, he was looking for me to say, “OH YES! That’s just what I want…to drive an hour to your house, pay $10 in tolls, spend 20 minutes looking for parking have mad sex with you, not ask why you dumped me so coldly yet want to have a textual relationship, and leave! Yes, you are so right, that’s EXACTLY what I want!!!!”

    Needless to say, I didn’t respond. Haven’t heard from him since!

    • Little Star says:

      Tracy, you are so funny, love your comment;) Ex AC used to pay for taxi to come and collect me and I used to go!!! I was totally in love with him that I lost me head:( NO MORE! Good for you honey, for not responding, I did not response as well before changing my number;)

    • Allison says:


      Why are you even in contact, after the way he dumped you? Don’t get it!

    • Stephanie says:


      U know what these assclowns never cease to amaze me. The arrogance and balls to call someone you dumped and ask for sex. They are so ugh!!!

  37. LovefromNel says:

    I’m new to Baggage Reclaim but can happily say that, although my self-esteem boundaries may need some work, they certainly don’t drop down for 11pm cocoas, so this isn’t a post that significantly struck a cord with me. That said, I must say that all the posts have and I relate to them immensely! Thanks to NML and all you lovely commentators – you’ve helped a bundle (even though you may not know it!) on past posts when I’ve been a mess following the most recent EUM (who incidentally I met when walking with my dog). xo to you all

  38. Aryanna says:

    For those of you wondering if anyone ever meets someone good online, I’ll testify. :-) I met my husband online nearly five years ago. I have a few friends as well who’ve met spouses/ltrs online. It CAN work, but you really have to be in the right place mentally.

    I probably wasn’t when I first started, but I approached it kind of light-heartedly and with almost no expectations. I figured it would be fun to meet some new people, since I’d been widowed after 13 years of marriage. My approach was a bit trial-and-error at first, but I learned pretty quickly what did and didn’t work. (Writing kind “no thank-you” notes to every idiot who bothered to say “Whassup Baby!”)

    Over a nine-month period I went on about a dozen first dates and four or five second dates. Except for one date, they were all fun, and the guys were high-quality, just not for me. Oh, I used POF, one of the biggest free sites. most of the people I know who’ve used pay sites say they see all the same people on those as on the free ones.

    I didn’t have a lot of bad experiences, mostly because I filtered early and heavily. The guys who sent suggestive, illiterate or one-word messages were ignored, and blocked if they tried again. No matter how good he looked or how great his profile sounded, if he got sexual right away (or at all really-I’m not talking about that stuff with a virtual stranger), the conversation was over.

    If we went back and forth more than five or six messages without him making a move to ask me out- FLUSH! If anything gave me the creeps- NEXT!

    On the other hand, I was pretty open to meeting anyone who took the time to send a polite message and bothered to ask me out properly. I learned that most guys look better than their pictures and are terrible at writing profiles. Even otherwise articulate, intelligent men seemed to have trouble writing about themselves. In short, I was almost always pleasantly surprised.

    I contacted my husband first, not expecting anything to come of it. His profile was outstanding, although we didn’t have a single interest in common. That turned out not to be a problem at all. We’ve been together in close proximity for nearly five years (we live in a truck, driving all over the US) and so far haven’t come close to running out of things to talk about. What we both noticed early on was that we had very similar values and goals in life. Everything else just fell into place.

    So, I do recommend online dating, with a few caveats. You have to have healthy self-esteem, good boundaries, and reasonable expectations. The perfect guy probably won’t drop into your lap right away. Expect to have to let down a few people easy, and expect to be let down yourself, probably more than once.

    If you’re feeling fragile, have a history of falling for sweet talk, have a history of choosing the wrong guys, or think most men are scum, it’s not for you. You need a weird combination of thick skin, optimism and a fully functional BS-detector!

    Natalie wrote some great posts about online dating. Here are a couple:



    • grace says:

      Enjoyed your comment. Your last two paras. could apply to all dating and relationships. Good to hear it can work out!

    • Furry White Dogs says:

      I second Grace’s comments! Thank you Aryanna, especially for tracking down and linking the articles.

  39. noquay says:

    I think one could find someone on line if one is perhaps 20’s to 40’s, more standard societal fare than I (read White), photographs well, lives in/near highly populated places, and is not too picky as to looks, education, etc. Must choose paid sites as the freebies are where the creepazoids will be found. You have to be OK with rejection and at least in my (older) age range, understand that a lot of lying about height/weight will occur. The closest I have come to a “keeper” is my version of Tinkerbell’s friend, a nice guy who was traumatized and probably can never be in a relationship again. That’s another thing to be aware of, some men are on line that shouldn’t be dating under any circumstances. You want to switch sites every three months otherwise you will be getting the same collection of dudes ad nauseum. Nope, the best I have done is my odd friend but again I am a poor candidate for on line (highly educated, mixed race, unusual lifestyle, remote location), I also am on line only part of the year as the cold months/academic year make it difficult to drive hundreds of miles to meet guts (whiteout snowstorm here as I write, cannot even see the large tree in the yard) but on line is my only option here. Again, so long as you keep every last bit of BR knowledge in tow, one may do just fine.

  40. NaiveGirl says:

    I’m new here and haven’t yet read the books. Although the man who just left told me a year ago he was EU and there really are sooo many issues in his life. I’m still scared that I’m diagnosing him as EU/AC when maybe he is a good guy that really just didn’t feel it for me and was trying but couldn’t do it. That’s what he claims.

    But so many things that I’m reading in NML’s posts feel like they could have been written about my situation and so many of the reader’s comments feel like I could have written them.

    How do I know for sure what I’ve been dealing with?

    I’m ordering the books. But in the meantime, I’m sitting here in tears because I truly don’t know what to think. I feel like I’m going crazy. I only know I am so very tired of hurting.

    • Allie says:

      Most likely he indeed is EU. He might not be an AC but still a EU.

      It is hard diagnosis because it means you need to flush :-(

    • Sandy says:


      I think you just answered your own question..if you can relate to the situations and comments here then I kind of think it’s obvious what sort of man you have been dealing with, most of us ended up on here because we wanted answers to the way we were feeling about the relationship we were in.
      A good relationship shouldn’t leave you in tears feeling you are going crazy or tired out and hurting from his ass clownery.
      Read the books, read the posts and hopefully this will help you make the right decision for you…because it is about you and your happiness now.

    • grace says:

      EU ppl aren’t bad people usually but they are not candidates for lasting and committed relationships. They can have many good qualities, so it can take months to realise what is happening. Often, the only thing wrong is that they don’t believe in committed relationships or believe that they can’t have one. And from that flows all kinds of confusing behaviour.
      Still, sounds like your guy strung you along.

    • Allison says:


      If it hurts, you need to remove yourself. Doesn’t matter what his problems are – EU or not – if you’re not happy, its time to move on.

  41. Tinkerbell says:


    Welcome. You’re in good company, I promise you. We have, for the most part, experienced the same or certainly similar issues. It’s a lot to take in when you’re just starting out on BR. But stay with us. Read Natalie’s books slowly and allow the info to really sink in and reflect on what you’ve read. She is very good at what she does, and has helped thousands of women “see the light” and find much healthier ways of coping with adversities and putting ourselves first instead of last. You will find over time that you are becoming stronger and wiser. Many of us have therapists to help us also, and read other self help materials. But, it is a very personal path you will be on. What works for someone else may not be for you. So you need to find out what ticks your boxes. We are very supportive here and you can talk about ANYTHING related to that particular post. Sometimes we may go off the subject in response to what someone has said, but in general it is not a problem and Natalie intervenes when things get out of hand. it’s the best relationship blog you can be on, I think. Glad to have you, xx Tink.

  42. Rosie says:

    NaiveGirl- Doing this by phone so I apologize now for all typos, etc. If a guy tells you he’s EU, believe him & walk away ASAP. It doesn’t matter what the reasons are. What matters is that he’s telling you upfront that your needs will go unmet. You can then make an educated decision as to what to do–continue into heartbreak or kindly thank him for his honesty & move along with your heart intact.

  43. NaiveGirl says:

    Sandy, Tinkerbell, Grace and Rosie,

    Thank you for your responses.

    I had never even heard the term EU when he said it last year (on our second date). I had no idea what I was getting into. If I could go back and get a redo I would handle everything from the first date differently.

    I have ordered Mr. Unavailable and the Falback Girl and The Dreamer and the Fantasy Relationship. I hope to have them in about five days.

    I have spent so many hours, days, weeks reading online trying to figure him out. I’m at the point that I have trouble holding a conversation. It sounds weird but my memory is shot. I have been chalking it up to stress…I hope that’s all it is. People close to me are noticing. It’s affected my job and my kids. It’s been like this for a while because I’ve been living in a hell since last December.

    He has flip flopped on me so many times during this year and put me in some very hurtful situations…so many I feel like I could write a book. Other women, ex wife, sister who is borderline personality and has attacked me before out of jealousy over him, he keeps our “relationship” secret on FB and has a fear of all relationship titles, on again/off again sexual relationship, we go months without seeing each other yet he called every single day, he has suffered with migraines and depression and I helped him through med withdrawals and changes, I’ve played therapist forever it seems like, now he has developed an addiction to Vicodin which was prescribed for the migraines. I’m exhausted!

    He even has revisionist history. Back last December we were discussing taking things slow and he kept saying we have a great friendship to build on but then he used the term FWB. I immediately told him I don’t like that term and I wasn’t interested in a FWB situation. He agreed. I even told my aunt about it because the thought was so offensive to me. However, two weeks ago when he told me that he can’t do this, he said that I said I wanted a FWB relationship and he’s just not comfortable with that. WTF??

    There are other examples of him rewriting conversations in his head.

    During the summer he told me that if I find someone and had a chance at happiness that I should move on as he didn’t know what his future held. That night I texted him and told him at that time there was no romantic future for us, wished him well, no hard feelings, hope he finds happiness, etc. He calls me that night and says I’m writing him off. WTF??

    Then he decides he wants to go out in August. I’m hesitant and ask him if things will be different if we try again. He says yes. We go out. Have a great time. He asks me out for four more dates during dinner (two of the dates with our boys included…they have become friends over the last year), refers to me as “my girl”, we sleep together again…then boom, two weeks later no sex and follows up by telling me he’s not feeling it, no spark, unresolved feelings for ex wife, nothing but friendship. WTF??

    I truly feel like I’m going insane!

  44. NaiveGirl says:

    Oh yeah, he would occasionally meet me in town (we live on opposite suburb sides of a big city…about 45 minutes apart) but mostly I had to come to his house. He never came out to mine and uses his occupation as a truck driver as why he doesn’t want to drive. He would even ask me to drive if we went out somewhere.

    Also, one of his favorite lines is “maybe in the future” and “keep the door open.” Even during this most recent ending he said, “I’ll never close the door 100%” and that he “still wanted to talk every day.”

    He proceeded to keep calling for a month afterward but it was building up in me. I finally blew two weeks ago and started crying and telling him how bad he hurt me and that’s when he pulled the unresolved feelings about ex and no spark thing.

    He was adamant about wanting to be friends and how special me and my son are to him. He asked how often I wanted him to call me. I said I didn’t know and asked what he wanted and he said, “How about I call you when I want to talk to you.” I stupidly said ok.

    We had one more conversation where he told me he could understand how I might have misunderstood him on our last date…the one where he asked me on four more dates and had sex with me. I lost it again and sent him a long text later replaying the events of the date and told him to not play it off as me “misunderstanding” as any woman would have taken his actions and words that night as a good sign of his interest.

    His text response the next day was he understood and was sorry it worked out that way.

    I’ve not got a call since but did get a birthday card a week later signed by him and his boys and a Happy Thanksgiving text.

    Thank you for letting me vent. It felt good to get some of this out to women who will understand and not look at me like I have two heads.

    • Feistywoman says:

      What a sad b@stuard to use his kids to play on your sympathies. That shows he is manipulative and you really do need to go NC and blow him out for good.

    • Revolution says:


      You don’t have two heads. But if you did, that dude would be mindfucking both of them and not just one.

      I have been through most of what you wrote about with this guy, and all I can say is RUN the other way. Cut off all contact (no friendship, because even that will exhaust and annihilate you in every way). He’s not worth your time. Not even the seconds it takes to compose a text message to him.

      Can you think of people in your life who have happy marriages? Notice the absence of constant confusion, stomach aches, verbal denigration? That’s what you (we all) should be looking for. The minute you start questioning which is your ass and which is your elbow (especially as a reasonably intelligent woman), you need to GET OUT.

      Said with love, though I’m not really the mushy type. :)

    • Allison says:


      This guy is a manipulative user!!!!

      This is such a one-sided situation, but you’re allowing this guy to totally take advantage of you. This is also crummy for your child.

      You seriously need to block all forms of contact with this nut, as he offers nothing but misery to your life!

      • Allison says:

        Also, you don’t need a drug addict around your child.

        Are you willing to lose your job, and compromise the relationship with your child – they pick up on everything – for someone who is so unstable and incapable?

    • Rosie says:

      NaiveGirl- I fully agree with Revolution and Allison. This isn’t what healthy, happy relationships look like. Although I still say it’s not necessary to know what’s wrong with him, it is necessary to discover why you didn’t recognize his “wrongness” and why you stayed in it. A good therapist would help you with that.

  45. Astrid says:

    Here, here Natalie. In my experience this is never a good thing. I was with man who was all types of unavailable earlier this year. He was just soooo busy all of the time and made zero effort to see me during the day after our initial lunch date. Because I was looking for something physical at the time and my libido took over my common sense, I continued to see him late at night. However, this could have ended up a really dangerous situation for me and I am lucky and blessed it did not. I don’t believe any man with an ounce of integrity will even suggest such a thing. And ever since I came back to earth and started to behave in line with what I am looking for long term, nor would I accept it!

  46. Tinkerbell says:


    I’m so sorry for the horrible experience you have been through with this man. I can understand that you feel as though you’re losing your mind. Please go NC. Get him out of your life, NOW. Change your phone number(s), block him access to you from Facebook and vice versa. Make it impossible for him to reach you unless he comes to your door. In which case, DO NOT HAVE A DISCUSSION. This is the only way you can begin to restore your sanity. Do you see a therapist? You should, particularly to help you through this rough patch. Chin up. Tink.

  47. Sandy says:


    I agree with Tink, go completely no conact, it is something I have done myself recently and it is the best thing I have ever ever done, I ended up changing my cell phone but kept my landline, which in hindsight was a silly thing to do as he rang on it, even though he is with someone else now he just won’t leave me alone and I am not a fall back girl or a bit on the side, anyway I digress, since going completely no contact I have never felt better, I am not saying it is easy because it isn’t, it’s the hardest thing you will ever have to do, but if you take it day by day you will find your life will start to settle down and you will start to reclaim who you are!

    • Sandy says:

      Bugga forgot to say I finally changed my landline as well, the relief knowing he can’t call is huge and it just makes life so much better :-)

  48. NaiveGirl says:

    Thank you.

    I feel so foolish. I saw the signs early on and was in denial…not even knowing exactly what I was in denial of. I believed his words over his actions and thought he was just in a very difficult place and was trying to get things together.

    In the last of my attempt to share my full story…

    I feel like I should also say that we met on FB through his sister (an old HS friend of mine). She tried to set us up and when we finally started talking she went off the deep end (she has borderline personality disorder and I think she thought she was being abandoned by us both).

    She knew I was overweight and started telling him horrible things about me. She got his ex-girlfriend involved who would call him and claim to have seen me (we’ve never met) and tell him how fat I was and tell him she came to my front door and I wouldn’t answer but she saw me through the window.

    My kids were scared and I was humiliated…but he was my ally at that time. He wasn’t speaking with his sister as she was attacking him too. He was blowing very hot, being very supportive and caring and was eager to meet me.

    I struggled with weight loss (he knew I trying to lose weight), several deaths and my father’s diagnosis with cancer and eventual liver transplant. I postponed meeting him for over a year due to these things and we became very close as friends…or so I thought.

    When we finally met, he seemed interested and it lasted a year off and on. I lost some weight prior to the meeting but wasn’t were I wanted to be…but it didn’t seem to stop him. Maybe the problem has been my weight all along. I don’t know.

    He and his ex-wife had lived together until a month before he and I finally met. They were divorced and she was in a relationship but they lived together for financial reasons…or so I thought. I now think it was a hope for more on his part. He claims we tried too fast after her moving out.

    Of course, he has also claimed it’s his finances, his mother, his job and now it’s no spark.

    During the holidays last year, his ex-wife and her boyfriend had briefly broken up and he spent all his time with her because she needed comfort. Even though we had just met and were semi-dating he spent his birthday, Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Year with his ex-wife and boys. I was alone except for two visits during this time.

    One night specifically, I was at his house and his ex-wife came by (drunk) wanting to meet me. She stayed until 3 in the morning despite his attempts to tell her to leave. They even tried to get me to sit on the couch between them…I refused and sat across the room. The first time we had sex, he stopped in the middle to read a text from her.

    She still has access to his house and they have no boundaries. Well, actually, she puts boundaries on him when her new relationship is going well, but he doesn’t put any on her ever and she likes it that way.

    She claimed to like me and thought me and my son were good for him and their boys. But as a woman, I know how we work. I think she wasn’t threatened by me (weight maybe) so it was safe for her to say that. She is an ex stripper by the way and has a “fairly decent” body still.

    About 3 months ago, her current relationship was in trouble again and she saw a tarot card reader and told him that the reader said they weren’t right for each other but also that he had a dying negative energy in his life and she thought it was me. LOL I’ve never done anything but try to help him, his sister, his mother, adore the boys and be nice to the ex-wife! I suspect the ex-wife was getting tired of me being around, even if it was on the fringes of his life. Although she has treated him horribly and I really don’t think she wants him, she basically still owns him and he lets her.

    He reconciled with his sister earlier this year. Is it coincidental that he and I have steadily gone downhill since? He is estranged from his mother now…as is the sister…all due to the sister’s actions. He has to run everything by his sister. He can’t even think for himself. I know now that when he decided he didn’t want to continue with me he discussed it with his sister first and she encouraged him to end it with me as it was the right thing to do. How convenient. I bet she loved every minute of it. The sister is now texting me wanting to “be there for me because she cares.”

    I’ve seen a therapist briefly during this past year, but she wasn’t helping me. I think I should probably seek out another one though.

    I’m so embarrassed of all of this that I subjected myself to. I share it hoping maybe someone else can identify with it and it could possibly help them in some way. Then I think maybe I’m the only one foolish enough to end up in a situation this terrible! LOL

  49. NaiveGirl says:

    The sick part is that even though I can sit here now and realize that he’s so damaged and bad for me and selfish and hurtful and addicted to pills and not trustworthy and and and…

    I still fall back into thinking…what if it was me?

    And even though I should hope to never hear from him again, I still think to myself…if he calls and wants to see me again that would be good because I would know that there wasn’t something wrong with me.

    • Allison says:


      This is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much drama!!!

      Oh goodness, the only thing you should be concerned about, is what attracted you to this situation. Is there a history of chaotic relationships: romantic or family?

      Please do seek out a new counselor, so that you can move on and recognize your part in this situation.

      • Allison says:

        Also, please do not think you deserve less because you are not happy with your size. You only deserve a healthy, happy, respectful relationship. This relationship was, and will never be it!

        • Mymble says:

          Exactly. On two occasions I have lost weight for men who among other things said or made me feel they were unhappy with my weight. In one instance I became borderline underweight, at the lower ranges of a healthy BMI. Did it make any difference to the relationships? Nope. None whatsoever. One of them cheated and dumped new skinny me. The other gradually distanced himself and froze me out, which was the direction he had been heading in anyway.
          Lose weight by all means for yourself and your own health but don’t imagine that this guy would ever have treated you any differently if you had done so while you were with him.

  50. Sandy says:


    it’s not you, most of us think that with these men, you will wear yourself out wondering what the hell it is you are doing wrong when it’s actually not you, it is him!

    From what your post says he has problems with other intimate relationship re: his sister, mother etc, what makes you think he is going to be any better in his intimate relationship with you?

    Please read Natalie’s other posts on wanting validation by having them contact you, you will find that the only validation you need will come from yourself.

    I know it’s hard but please be strong.

  51. NaiveGirl says:

    History of chaotic relationships? I don’t know. History of bad relationships? Yes.

    Teenage relationship with a controlling, criticizing older guy who had a “fat” nickname for me even though I was a size 3-5. He cheated and left because he got someone pregnant.

    14 year marriage to someone complete opposite and I had to be in control of everything. He was a serial cheater. Ended up leaving during a fling with a 19 year old and is currently engaged to what will be his 3rd wife who is only 22 years old…our daughter is 20 years old.

    6 year post-divorce long-distance relationship with a man who I think was probably EU and still hung up on his ex wife. He maybe didn’t physically cheat but for sure emotionally cheated.

    Then this one.

    Family relationships: No siblings but always have had a difficult relationship with my mom. A counselor once told me my mom tried to sabotage my relationship between me and my father because of her non-existent relationship with her absentee alcholic father.

  52. espressor says:

    I feel for you Sushi watching your daughter go through this because I was in that space where I was mixed up in a lot of ways…confused, bewildered and lost confidence and placated just because I couldn’t handle the stuff coming back at me while I continued to churn out the empathy. Getting a crumb now and then makes us just keep “trying harder” to make an unworkable situation work. The only thing to do I guess is keep reminding her that she deserves to be treated with consideration, thoughtfulness and respect. Period. Even if she doesn’t seem to hear you…she will. It will make a difference.

    • sushi says:

      Thanks espresso,

      she felt unwell today and then proceeded to have a panic attack just thinking she has to tell him she can`t meet him tonight. That is because she knew from previous experience that he will make her feel guilty about it.We spent the day talking and I found out about silent treatments for no reason and she says she feels like she wants to shrivel up as he talks down to her and looks like there is a lot of subtle manipulation and guilt tripping going on.This after fast forwarding at neck breaking speed and frankly I think this has some sighns of mentally abusive relationship.I am beside myself with worry.

  53. Enough says:

    Wow how timely I’m dealing with this potential issue as we speak! As I am writing this comment there is this guy that I met online we exchanged numbers but for the past few weeks all I get is a good morning text. All of a sudden I get a text “you must do not like me anymore” Oh sir I don’t even know you well enough to say that. I went on to tell him that all he does is text good morning and nothing more. We exchange a few more texts and then silence. So about an hour ago I get the wyd text. I say watching tv. He goes on to tell me he is on his way to my city to get a room. (Here it comes preparing to FLUSH!!!) I’m just waiting oh him to ask can I visit him or meet him or to even visit me. It truly pisses me off. Such a a-hole. I’m so over guys like this. I’m dying for him to even attempt to ask me anything about seeing him. I will oh so politely tear him a behind lol and hand up and flush him out of my phone lol. Stay tuned its so amusing to me that women and men put up with this behavior. You live and you learn.

    • Allison says:


      Perhaps, you should simply ignore. Why put anymore energy into this.

      • M says:

        Completely agree with Allison. You responding is encouraging him to continue contacting you like this. The door remains open for him.

  54. teachable says:

    I have a ‘friend’ (male, keeping my distance atm for other reasons) who comes to my home unannounced w.out calling first. Not often or late at night but totally pee’s me off as I’m too ill for visitors or busy (arvo or early evening). Worse, he then settles himself in & STAYS until late in the evening to where I have to be rude & tell him to leave as I’m off to bed. Once, I even explained I needed an early night & he gets all excited at a doco on tv ending at 10.30. I’m thinking just eff off already but endure the doco as he helped w some minor things around the place earlier on. unbelievably, he then gets doubly excited it’s followed by ANOTHER doco (tht went till after 11.30 pm). I was fucking seething & could not wait for him to LEAVE!!

    • Rosie says:

      teachable- What makes it hard, I imagine, is that he did some favors for you. It’s like, “Gosh, he did x, y, z. I can’t just throw him out…” Tit for tat. He did you some favors, you repaid by letting him hang out for a while. Consider him repaid.

      How are you feeling, btw? I saw that you also posted in the new post. Does this mean you’re feeling better?

  55. Tinkerbell says:


    Please don’t allow this jerk to take advantage of you like that. I understand sometimes we need a man to do certain things around the house. We’re not all so capable like Noquay. It’s a pity we have to be dependent at times. BUT not at the risk of him sitting in front of your tv making himself at home at your expense. That’s the last thing you need. Your R&R is very important for you. Do not allow him to tarry. Once he’s paid, he should be out the door. Keep it strictly business. I’m always hoping you are feeling better.

  56. oldchris says:

    I have just been contacted by this man on a dating website, and altho I haven’t had a date in many years, the years of reading BR has taught me a few lessons..!! I am not even going to meet this man..
    His description of the type of woman goes like this…I have copied and pasted….
    “Considered attractive, probably blonde, and slim or athletic. Plays tennis, scrabble and enjoys entertaining, very tactile and enjoys hugs and making love, not only in bed, must enjoy sex and certainly not if its a chore! Not always in my pocket, but really likes getting together on an impromptu basis, maybe turns up unannounced and enjoys the reverse”
    Well, just imagine- late night booty calls, but please keep your distance hun…yuk yuk flush…

30-Day Project: Dealing With Tricky Family Members

Tired of dealing with family drama or waiting for them to spontaneously combust in to changed people? Need to find ways to step back and take proactive steps to redefine the relationship from your end? This 30-Day project will help you do just that.

30-Day Project: Dealing With Tricky Family Members

Tired of dealing with family drama or waiting for them to spontaneously combust in to changed people? Need to find ways to step back and take proactive steps to redefine the relationship from your end? This 30-Day project will help you do just that.