If there is one thing a woman in a dubious relationship loves, it’s shades of grey. Looking between the lines when there is no gap. Seeing gold or platinum when it’s actually copper. Seeing a loaf when it’s a crumb. Over rationalising things to make it fit within her reason. And the big ones; assuming she is different or that he is different.
The reason why I say this? There are two things you should drum into yourself so you can get into reality:
1) When you make contact after starting No Contact, and by ‘make’ that means instigating or accepting it in any, way, shape, or form, it is contact. Period. Contact is contact.
2) You may put on your rose tinted glasses and your fur coat of denial and rationalise that your guy is different, special, has some good points, has some good days, is only a ‘bit’ emotionally unavailable or not as emotionally unavailable as the last guy, but…emotionally unavailable is emotionally unavailable.
With the former, I really want you to realise that whatever reasons you come up with for making contact or accepting contact , and whatever tone you think you had and yada, yada, yada, he doesn’t think ‘Ah, Natalie accepted my call but she’s really frosty with me so I think I’d better leave her alone from now on because I don’t want to mess her around any further and I’ve already put her through enough pain’. No – he doesn’t ‘think’ at all because the act of getting you to break No Contact is about attention. You may look at it as giving him 1% attention but he just sees it as attention, period. He realises he’s proved his point, and often, the silly little assclown won’t even bother to return your call or will just straight up vanish.
Stop explaining, stop discussing, stop thinking that he’s thinking the same thing you’re thinking, because trust me, he’s not. If you weren’t on the same planet when you were together, you can be damn sure you’re not now that it’s over.
99% of the time, whatever reason you have come up with for making contact or accepting it, it’s not the real reason and if you’re even THINKING about making contact, it’s a neon flashing light of a signal that is telling you that you haven’t cut contact for long enough!
When it comes to emotional unavailability, one of the problems that will keep you being compassionate, projecting, and in denial, is believing that you can make him different or that he’s not what he actually is. For the habitually emotionally unavailable that cause umpteen problems for themselves and you, they are emotionally unavailable.
Stop analysing him and trying to put him into the ‘not so bad job lot’ of emotionally unavailable by overextending your compassion.
Mr Unavailable is not a ‘bit’ emotionally unavailable, 25%, 50, 66 or whatever percent emotionally unavailable. It doesn’t matter if he only has done half the things that some others do – that half may be very bad and where there is half, there is more.
You want to think he’s different because you don’t want to let go and you’re heavily emotionally invested in the potential that you think he can deliver. The fact that you need to focus on potential rather than the current him speaks volumes.
If you have to have shades of grey to maintain your idea of the relationship, it’s a sign that something is very wrong. Whilst the world is not black and white, if you’re in a healthy relationship, you shouldn’t have to rationalise him, his behaviour, your emotional investment, or your reasons for still being around. Period.
Your thoughts?
Get ahead on understanding waste of space men and relationships with my ebook, Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl. Find out more and download. Also find out more about my No Contact Rule web seminar, or if you need personal advice or analysis of your relationship, check out my consultation service.
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I just found this website and what perfect timing. I like to think that of the beginning of our relationship as him inviting me into his swimming pool and we are happy and enjoying ourselves then all of a sudden he signals to his friend to add concrete mix as he is getting out of the water. Leaving me stuck and wondering what is going on. So, I am neck deep and can’t move wondering where he is and why we aren’t swimming happily anymore and he is free to do what he wants. Then this place becomes my jackhammer and sets me free and all I have to remember is that whenever he contacts me all he is doing is inviting me back into his cement pond! And he is not gonna trick me again.
yeah got through new year onwards and upwards good luck girls !!! we can do this xxxxxxxxxxxxx
I feel like I have a lot in common with these “threads.” But there are some differences.
I tend to work up an imaginary “dream castle” wherein I feel that I have a relationship with someone, even though I’ve been on only _one_ date with him, for example. As I write this, there are two guys I am thinking of – One is more recent, and thus I’m more emotional about him – I’ll call him Bob.
I also get my emotions worked up and then I tend to let them all out in one long “love letter” (or email), rashly . . . Knowing that I’ll never “win” him by this, and may actually drive him away – I go ahead and send the email — [Hopefully I've learned my lesson from both of them, and will never do this again!] — Then I expect to never see him again, as the price of “venting” / expressing those strong emotions.
With Bob, I had sent the love letter, and didn’t hear from him for about four months or so. And I didn’t contact him either; because I felt that I had already said all – There was nothing left for me to say. . . . But then he showed up at my workplace.
We had a very nice talk with prolonged eye contact, happy, smiling, deeply emotional. For his part, he was enjoying the attention — For my part, I was _giving_ myself to him in the eye contact, showing him how I adore him, showing him how I worship him. I guess he came to my work purposely, to see this.
Now, as I am gazing into his eyes lovingly, he makes the verbal statement: “I’m moving miles away to a new location. . . . But anyway, it’s been nice knowing you!” I deliberately tried to keep myself from showing much reaction, but it did take the smile off my face . . . I was absolutely silent, because (as I thought to myself) “There is nothing left to say. Anything I said would be superfluous.”
He looked at me rather peculiarly, as if he enjoyed my predicament, and was very perversely curious about my reaction. Then he laughed. Then he shook hands and left.
Ouch!
I must realize that neither one of these guys really cares about me. I’m the one giving and giving and stroking the egos. If they don’t value me, why should I value them?
The other guy, I’ll call him Jake – I’ve known him longer. He was talking to me the other day and actually _smirked_ about the fact that he only comes to see me when he feels like it – about every two months – Sometimes once a month.
So one guy laughed at me, and the other one smirked. What am I worth to them? Nothing! Why should I give them the time of day?
I can learn from what you’re saying, even though some of the circumstances are different.
Hello, friends, I was on this website a lot last year, trying to cope with the affair with a married man I was having. I broke it off in August, including telling his wife. It kept him away. Basically, I’m writing now ONLY for one reason: because of the ease of emails, I STILL contacted him occasionally. It was over, I had moved on, but even that little contact I realized was keeping me stuck, was avoiding that last bit of facing being alone, facing he wasn’t suitable, facing he isn’t someone I should trust with my thoughts and feelings. I SOOOooooo agree with “contact is contact” and the game about “my guy is one of the nicer ones who is emotionally unavailable (and taking advantage of me)”. It’s GARBAGE. When you’re doing it, you believe it completely. THEN, breaking out, you see the trap you’ve been in. THIS WOMAN HERE KNOWS WHAT SHE”S TALKING ABOUT and has helped so many of us! So, no contact for real now, not a little sharing email every couple of weeks or so or more often. That’s for me. And this is 5 months after I ended it. The internet is the crack cocaine of dating. A powerful high and a habit hard to kick. So are affairs. Too exciting and dangerous and destructive every step of the way. Put the two together, as I did (long distance, lots of internet use) and it was such a trap that was so hard to escape. I’m stone cold sober now!! And it’s not so bad!! LOL.
Also, ladies, I think I may always feel wistful occasionally for the magic I had with this guy. FINE. It was an experience I’ve had. But the price was so high and he’s not a kind, decent person. An experience is just that. We have many memories of things and they’re in our treasure bin, but there are lots of OTHER experiences of value and ones that don’t degrade along with delight. NEVER again will I let that happen to me.
HELLO to anyone of the old friends I had here last spring and summer!!!! And all the best to EVERYONE who comes to this site and receives a benefit. Take care of yourself!!!!
Kaymart,
“..I may always feel wistful occasionally for the magic ..” I think our memories, our experience, is an essential part of life. Thankfully our brains are usually wired to retain the best of things, and the most prominent feelings. I would hate to think that getting caught chewing gum in class in the 5th grade would be the single, defining memory of my life. Days go by that I don’t even think about that! lol.
The other thing that people do, is to build fresh experiences and fresh memories that nestle in amongst our previous life, and often cover over, for a time, some of the things that went before. The same part of us that remembers the best of a bad relationship will let a good relationship prosper in the future. With care, I believe there is hope.
We need to honor our memories to make good decisions in the future. Whether or not we learn from our mistakes and our successes (and hopefully choose to repeat the successes!) will show up in how well our current and future decisions turn out.
Think of moments of wistfulness not as regret, but, with memories turmoil and hurt, preparation to make the best of the rest of your life.
Blessed be!
iam in the same situation in my case ,i met this girl of real low self esteem ,yes iam a fella ,treated her like a women should be treated ,and the father of a love child only got hold of her when she met me ,he eum to her and plays with her mind ,when he dont want her she comes back to me also hes her first love ,double wammy there ,god this hurts iam getting the same treatment from her ,i want to walk away but cant ,am i mad or what
I too fell upon this site when googling “Men who cannot commit”! How ridiculous…I am 40 years old and a single mom. My story? My EUM and I have been “dating” for 4 years. We started out as FWB’s when each of us were going through our divorces. He, married 26 years, me- 10 years. In the beginning, it was casual and just sex. We grew closer, became friends and started to care. In the last couple years is when we both really started to share our feelings. Me, on a much greater level then he. I have said since the beginning that I wasnt sure if he really knew how to love or be loved. Our relationship? Well, we get along great, we love each other, we laugh, we have fun and we rarely ever argue. I guess there in lies the probelm….Because it is all so great, I want more! We started out spending every other w/e and 1 night during the wk together (my son’s nights with his dad). It has evolved into most weekends and the Wed night. But that is it…no talk of every living together and no marriage. Every six months or so we come around to a disagreement about why he chooses to go home some nights after a great night. He has admitted that he doesn’t know how he is going to feel in the future. When I finally started to address “where is this going” He tells me that he loves me, he is committed to me and he doesnt want anyone else in his life”. Sounds great, but when asked about the future, “he doesnt know how he will feel in the future”. I need more…and he knows this. He tells me he knows I deserve more, but it is something he cant give me and doesnt know if he ever will be able to. Recently, I told him I need more and because I was not about to give him an ultimatum, I ended it. We started out talking , but it was too hard. I told him don’t contact but he still did. When I told him again and he didnt…then I got jealous and frantic and contacted him. I told him I thought he should go to counseling to address some of his issues of guilt over his failed marriage and (adult) child with disabilities. We talked about this possibly being his issue of “not being able to move off the mark”. He has started counseling and I really want to share this journey with him and get counseling myself in the hope that we could make it work. He does not share his feelings well, but he is affectionate and very good to me. He just wants to maintain an element of independence and space. Help…I love this man incredibly, but don’t want to be on a rollercoaster of breakups. Just not sure walking away from him was the right thing to do.
Journey,
It’s been four years! How many more years are willing to waste for a man that cannot see a future with you. I think it’s time to find someone who is willing to commit and will appreciate you for who you are and for what you have to offer.
@ TheJourney,
Part of what you are seeing is something I call the Visitor issue. When you have sex before a relationship (mated), any sleepover is by invitation.
Yes, the sex-trading has been going on for a while, but you didn’t start out asking yourself – is this the co-parent prospect, the mate-prospect, that I want to devote my life to? As far as I can see, you still haven’t.
You are relying on counseling to “fix it”. You want a magic pill, a magical stranger to wave a magic wand, to grant you the partner that you were responsible for picking, way back when.
The current status of affection (we love each other) or intimacy has nothing to do with whether you respect him, his character, his honesty and honor, and whether you are devoted to enriching his life with joy. If granting him joy (and I mean joy, not just sex or humor) isn’t fun and rewarding for you – why aren’t you looking for someone worth your while?
I don’t believe there is one special someone for each of us, and if we don’t find that one someone, we will never be happy. I think any number of people could make a very satisfying and glorious family with you or anyone else. But to get serious about a relationship, to take a mate, you need some basics – character, honesty, honor, respect – in common.
I don’t know that this guy is wrong for you. I don’t know that he doesn’t want something else. But do keep in mind – change is measured in discomfort. Where you look to a happy home and lament the obstacles, he is seeing the changes in his life.
And he is visiting. Because there is no “mate” relationship, he understands, and maybe counts on, the fact that the invitation is provisional. You wonder why he goes home at times – this is like asking any other guest to overstay their invitation. They have their own lifestyle, their own needs and plans and routines.
What I see happening is that you fell into an intimate relationship. And now you want to turn that into a marriage, or mating, or family, or whatever you want it to become.
When the reality is that you need to start with something completely different. You have to ignore the fact that he sleeps over. And decide, for yourself, whether this is the right man for you. If you were meeting him for the first time tomorrow, and you only considered the non-sexual aspects of living with a husband or mate – does he measure up? Work out with him, what changes would be ahead for each of you, and work out what goals. And accept that the intimacy will *change*. Because relations between mates are unrelated to “invitation” sex.
@ Gaynor,
Yes, it has been a long invitation-relationship. And her trying to change the nature of the relationship, now, is likely scaring and confusing him all to pieces. She needs to connect where they are, with where she wants to go, and give him and invitation to come along that he understands and accepts.
Not to mention, neither of them took the time to address their issues over their previous marriages.
Brad K.’s last blog post..br: Dating – Is he controlling, or ..?
Brad,
The message that stood out to me is that is that he very unclear about a future with her, to me this sounds like he is stringing her along. My God, if you are not clear after a four-year relationship, you never will be. My opinion.
Gaynor,
There are two messages – that she stayed in the same relationship that he stayed in for four years.
I am not clear on why she wanted, now, to change the nature of the relationship, what she wanted to gain. Security? affection? I am also not clear what she thought he was supposed to gain by changing – what benefits would entice him to rearrange a long standing arrangement.
BTW – she wasn’t interested, in all this time, in bringing the guy into her child’s life, nor has he made much effort to be there for the kid outside of their intimate ‘together’ times. That part may well have been left out of the story, but it seems really clear that these people consider their intimate times as sex adventures – not forming a family.
I don’t see a path to any viable form of mating from where they are. If they were both to agree to drop everything and start over – after dealing with the issues that ended their previous marriages, taken the time to find themselves again, and consider whether they are interested in each others as disciplined, honorable co-parent and mate prospects.
It seems simple from the outside – they have affection for each other, they haven’t irritated each other irredeemably in four years, why not get serious, move in, marry, and be a happy family. Yet they have put so very much on hold, important issues and values that it doesn’t sound like have been resolved yet.
Dealing with issues will change them – if they don’t change, what is the point? Now their initial evaluation of each other comes into play – someone suitable for FWB may never be a good mate prospect, and it sounds like neither ever considered the other in that light. And then there is the problem that change is chaotic. Make a big change (like, start interacting daily with a kid that has been sent off every time they get together for four years), and there is no predicting whether they would remain suitable.
If she isn’t making the prospect of a deeper relationship *enticing* to him – does she want him to stay or to go?
Wow, good insight from both of you, I do appreciate your candor. Let me give a little more detail so we appear less awful, I hope:)
We only started out as FWB’s because we knew each other as friends prior to divorces. I think we both felt it was a distraction, right or wrong, it was what it was. It grew slowly into much greater caring. Our relationship definitely grew out of the FWB and has not been solely about sex for a very long time. In the beginning, I did wait a long time before I let him have contact with my son. This was more so not to expose my son to me in another relationship until he had time to recover from the divorce. We have spent the last several years being a part of each others family lives. Granted, he admitted to me recently that he had made a conscious decision in the beginning not to get too close to my son because of concern about his loyaltyies to his dad and possible resentment that he was the first guy in my life right after the divorce. He has a developmentally handicapped daughter (26y.o) who actually lived with me for a year while we tried to get her set up to live independently with help of state/government programs. She was also pregnant during that time of which I guided her through the pregnancy and the ultimate decision she made to release the baby for adoption. So, there has been quite a bit more substance to our relationship than sex. Over the last year, we have discussed “where the relationship is going” and slowly I have wanted to go to the next level and he has not really “moved”. We both feel like we have made efforts to bring each other what we need…he, feeling he has been spending more and more time with me (and my son), me, feeling like I give him the “space” he needs. As far as mutual love, honor, respect for each other. I have no doubt we both have that. Nothing makes me happier than giving him joy. I guess that is part of the issue…I love him, who he is, and how we are together. I just can’t help but to feel that his not being able to move forward is a reflection of how he feels about me. He claims it isn’t, that he knows without a doubt that if he were ready to go there, it would be with me. He is happy the way things are right now. I trust that he is committed to me, he just doesnt want to take it to the next level. For women, I think that is just a natural progression. He is relatively Emotionally Unavailable, doesn’t wear his heart on his sleeve. So, it is hard for me to know if he really “wants” to be with me, I have to trust what he tells me, when he tells me. Bradk, I was really intrigued by your comment about “why would he want to change things when there is nothing enticing to him about the change”. I think that is so true! But really, is there anything enticing to the average guy about living together, not having their “own space” anymore as they see it. As far as the counseling, I think we each need it, because we never really did address our “after marriage” issues, and I think it would help each of us as individuals. I would be lying if I said, I didn’t hope it helps him gain some clarity about what he does and doesnt want in the future and get out of the past. I do struggle with the question “if you don’t know in 4 years, are you ever gonna know”. I tried to break things off, to give him “space and time” to work on his issues that he doesnt know he has. But it was hurting both of us because we care so deeply for one another. We want to try to work through it together, set some guides as to what we both need, what things need to change in our relationship now and a plan that is different from what we have done in the past, instead of just coasting along and finding ourselves on different pages. It’s scary and confusing. And I can’t help it that it makes me feel like I love him so much more than he loves me. I mean, If you love someone that much and the relationship is great, don’t you automatically want to grab hold of it and never let go….or is that just the woman in me talking? PS…he is at his first counseling appt as we speak, he never did this in 26 years of marriage…that has to say something for how he feels about us/me.
@ The Journey,
I am going to play Devil’s advocate for a moment. You keep referring to some change as going “to the next level”, or “moving forward”. Yet you mention that he “isn’t moving”. You use all these directional metaphors as if it were understood by everyone that there is somewhere to go from here, that where you are isn’t a valid place to live.
And what you report is that, yes, where you are now is a place where you are living, and have been for some time.
So I come back to my question, have you indeed picked the right person to build the family with, that you apparently now intend to build? How did you decide that you needed to drag this guy from where he has found comfort to where he apparently isn’t that interested in going?
I think most of the reluctance of guys to marry or build a family, is about recognizing the amount of change that they will encounter in their lives. Those that are interested in building a family, and believe they have found a good mate-prospect, will be eager to bind themselves into their chosen life path.
I am not sure what you see as “the next level”. But even if you are clear about just what will lie on the other side of change from here to there (remember, change is chaotic, and we can *not* see what lies on the other side), you haven’t yet made the promise enticing to him.
If you cannot make the change attractive to him, or if making it attractive is something you cannot or will not do, then if you truly want a mate, you need a real mate-prospect. Your choice.
Journey,
Who recognized there was a problem and suggested therapy? Also, did he say he wanted to change his life and incorporate another into it?
Hey Journey,
I do think all the tough love advise that Brad and Gaynor are giving you is spot on. I will offer, that I understand that the relationship as it stands now is meaningful to you and him.
I guess, my question to you would be, that the roots of it were a way for both of you to distract yourselves from the breakdown of marriages (that both involved children). Yes, it seems you have moved beyond the superficial definition of that, what with the FWB’s aspect of it. But, just maybe, you are betting a bit too much on potential here (to coin NMLs phrase)?
I think the fact that you found this site and are looking for opinions outside of the relationship says alot. I think you truly care for this man and that he truly cares for you, but, maybe you have hit a juncture point or crossroads, so to speak, and maybe, you know deep down, it may not work out.
I wish the best for you and your child.
Keep aware and strong. ts.
I may not understand this right, but I believe what he said, he may not be able to give you want you want. He was married for 26 years – I don’t know what broke up the marriage? Did his wife leave him?
Having a child with disability, my heart goes out to him, I am raising two healthy Teenagers by myself and it is hard.
I don’t believe he is ready for another marriage right now, maybe never.
Like Brad, I am not sure what your “next level” is?
Therapy is not a magic fix, it will not turn him into the person you want him to be, but hopefully help him with his own issues.
Journey, if you are looking to live with a man soon or get married soon, than you have the wrong guy.
But, should the goal always be marriage? (Since living in the States I have noticed that relationships here need to end in marriage or is not a relationship).
My question is, what are you expecting from him right now?
I want to point out what Brad said, he did start out as a “Visitor” and was comfortable with that. He may be thinking: what is wrong with her, we got along fine..
You also sent him mixed messages by saying: Don’t contact me anymore and then he eventually stopped. Then you started freaking out and contacting him. huh??
The decision will be yours, do what is right for you.
I also don’t see him as lying or cheating or being dishonest, is he?
Is he playing games, manipulating or controlling??
If not, why not give it a chance and see what the future will bring.
Can I ask you if you are much younger than him?
But, you have to be comfortable and you should do what is right for you, with him or without him. I really don’t believe that him not be able to move forward has anything to do with you at all – it is him, you didn’t cause that.
You hung in there for 4 years and something brought you to this great website with great Information and advice, make the best choice for you.
I want to add a personal opinion and experience – I hope I won’t get slammed for that – a lot of man at end 40 early 50, divorced after a long of time of marriage are not really looking to settle down again soon, they don’t “know” what they want and are overwhelmed with work, having the kids on their assigned schedules, taking care of their homes, laundry and dating on top of that. I know that people say: if he is interested he will move mountains to be with you, I personally don’t believe this for an “older” man.
Multitasking is not what they are good at.
Journey, it all boils down to what you want and what is good for you, if you cut him loose, don’t start the next guy of as a “Visitor” or you will be in the same boat, Good luck, put the focus on you and your child.
Journey,
… because you are caught up in your emotions; you are thinking in fantasy mode, that the two of you will get therapy and live happily ever after but I have a feeling deep down inside you know this isn’t the case. Yes initially you two were in a situation where you were friends who decided to phuck eachother on a regular basis with no strings attached — which you got emotionally caught up in and probably thought that “hey, well there are no rules saying this can’t be more serious”… but the truth is, because of the foundation in the first place it doesn’t seem like he is preparred to be more serious ith you, if he was then I think he would be more eager to speed up the committment process and because of the nature of your relationship, the dance of the imbalance continues. Whatever your issues you are going to counseling for has probably attracted him to just “being” there and having a casual relationship, vise versa. He has straight out told you that he doesn’t think he can give you what you want which in his words means he can’t and it’s best that you move on. It’s never a good thing when a guy tells you that you deserve more… because hell and high water if he really wanted to be with you and could give you what you wanted he would give you that and not set you free to decide. Perhaps therapy will help you to see the truth and find the relationship you deserve.
and I must add, I’m saying “friends”, but more like aquaintances… that were attracted enough to bang each other on a regular basis.
My biggest pet peeve is people buttering up the fact that they are having sex with someone they either have known for a long time where one of them decides they don’t want to committ into a “relationship mold – FWB” which it isn’t a relationship mode, or two people who are barely friends who bang and say “We are FWBs”… to desperately get some type of consistency and substance in their lives” which isnt at all! You are not Friends with Benefits… ahhhhhhh rant… you are two people who are okay with casual sex and are making it more than it is.
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