I have to say it was interesting to explore the dynamics of relationships — and even still after alot of growth this past year or so, I find this site very fascinating, insightful and helpful towards my continued growth.

Sex was always the intimacy factor for me which I involved myself in very soon into the dating (or whatever you want to call it) type of meeting someone new — but I thought about something. How on earth was I going to attract a healthy relationship when I was emotionally neglecting myself by sleeping with these men — claiming that “it was all in fun” bullshit!

They say though, when you play out your spiritual pain that is when you start healing and changing, thank god I am 27 and have a whole life ahead for healthy relationships. I know that I was emotionally unavailable for a long time. It pained me when I would go along with these mens terms and already knew the script — there was something inside of my fighting to just trust myself and allow myself to see with my own vision, not let others choose for me.

The last “dating exapade” played out just like this website has broken it down. Calling when I was moving on with my life (perfect timing) Wanting to “be friends” although I knew deep within we weren’t but doubted myself into being mean because I didn’t want to “be friends” — I could go on… especially not trusting myself when we became sexually involved and knew it was a bottomless pit…

I am grateful though because through our pain — we finally learn to do something different and become emotionally available for the right fella. My boundary now is to be in a loving relationship that is committed until I have sex… and I also haven’t been dating for 6 months — and just focusing on building myself up and when a person comes into your life that is wrong you will be able to easily discard it because it won’t serve your true hearts passion and life that is full — and better yet when the right one comes you will know because you won’t be changing your flow to be with him and he will show you he values you and you won’t accept anything less.

I served in the US Navy, onboard the USS Saratoga aircraft carrier in 1977-1978. Women were just being allowed to serve on board ships. I recall a conversation among a couple of chief petty officers (similar to senior supervisors, kinda). They complained that they didn’t want women working for them. “The first time there is work to be done, it will be “that time of the month.”"

What I saw then, and have since seen in scientific software development, is that Lisa might be correct, in a way. That management had been a masculine job. With the same relationship and character flaw endemic in EUM relationships. Something like how Gresham’s law about how bad money will poison a money supply, the presence of bullies and deceivers and manipulators in senior management pretty much forces everyone that says to act that way. “The ship doesn’t go where the captain doesn’t steer.”

Adding women to the mix usually changed things. Attitudes, policies – abuses – got reexamined. Changes happened. In the Navy many of the changes made work easier – more effective. More respectful. In industry, generally the company benefited from cleaning up abuses and taking fresh approaches. At least, where the individuals involved were functional and not EUW/EUM or abusive assclowns. About like relationships.

So I would agree with Lisa, that management *had been* defined as a male job. But putting women into management changed the definition of the job much more, in most cases, than forcing the woman to do a “man’s job”. “Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition.” ~Timothy Leary.
http://www.quotegarden.com/feminism.html

@ ARulesGirl2theEnd,

I don’t think it is just early influences. Look at TV and print ads, at sitcoms, at movies. Only rarely does any dynamic show up, except that “together” means sleeping together. In all the Viagra and Victoria’s Secrets and beer ads I have seen – none claimed to raise healthier babies, or make children better students (discipline and patience and curiosity will). The infamous Hazel, Father Knows Best, Leave it to Beaver, and Lost focus on laughs, mis-communications, and misunderstandings. None spent much time on the security and joy of emotional commitment, of respect for self and others. If you look closely, at times you will see some relationship values, some reasons to choose character over a slick line. But usually? All the media we expose ourselves to is about getting laid.

Or about humor – there is no humor without pain (Skip Anderson). Every time we reward and laugh at humor, we celebrate someone’s pain or humiliation. Imagine what effect wallowing in humor, and ignoring joy, has on a relationship. You have to explain to some people that pranks and pain and humiliation aren’t “funny”, they are rude, disrespectful, and abusive. Because watching TV or YouTube won’t clue them in. “Lighten up” has to be the most demeaning cop-out I know.

In the past, the only sex allowed a “proper” girl – one eligible for a church wedding – was in the marriage bed. And that followed centuries when there was no expectation that the bride knew, or liked, her husband.

Relationships and dating today may be better, or just different. But the rules are less well defined about what to expect. Rules, like boundaries, both deflect unwanted stuff and give guidance to what is expected. There are so many bad examples, it is a wonder NML both found a personal answer and a rewarding relationship and family – and then managed to successfully share that discovery.

I too agree with your assessment of having sex too early, before there is a commitment, less having to get a ring leading to marriage, besides what kind of ring would it be? A friendship ring, a ring from a cracker jack box, a gold ring, a diamond ring? None of these represent, in my opinion, a reason to jump into bed with someone. What if….a man gives you a ring 2 or 3 months into the relationship, professes his love for you and asks you to marry him and you haven’t had sex, would that be the green light to have sex? I don’t feel an animate object signals permission to have sex at that point, you don’t even know the man. I do feel, and from my own experience, jumping into bed to early, does not create a foundation for a healthy substantive relationship. However….
As Brad mentioned in his last post and what I alluded to, man women on here have issues much deeper than the nice neat package of not having sex. Many times there are underlying issues that must be dealt with in order to understand and even achieve a healthy relationship or what one even looks like. As you mentioned, sex too early can be the root of all evil in a relationship, I do agree with that, however……..

Brad raises important points. The root of many relationships failing and sex too early and engaging in repetitive bad relationships can be traced back to emotionally unavailable fathers, parents that were not good role models, sexual abuse, alcholism and more, which in and of themselves will lead to self-esteem issues. Boundaries not presented early on in life. Women not having one iota of what a boundary is or how to communicate what is acceptable or unacceptable behavior from a man because, well, they just didn’t know because they never learned the behaviors early on. I can write extensively on this subject since I lived it, but it’s private and I don’t care to share my entire life and what lead me to this site (except I had an ephiphany relationship) with you or anyone else and besides I don’t think you could handle it.
I will say, without finding this site, reading NML’s book, recoginizing the triggers that kept me in toxic relationships with weak foundations that I should have never been in, getting counseling, I would still be out there flapping around repeating the same patterns that I lived for the past 40 years. Working on these issues, revealing them, dealing with them head on has started the healing process. I now have tools that I never had before to look forward to a healthy, committed relationship with a man that is worthy of me and am excited about the fact that unless we both have “two feet” in the relationship, that it is exclusive, sex won’t be part of it. I can now recognize what is and what is not a healthy relationship but it’s taken being vunerable and getting the garbage out. Lisa, previously I did not have the tools to recognize and verbalize what is acceptable or what is not acceptable and Iknow this will be shocking to you, but sex was my foundation, not for the sex but I considered the intimacy, one of many things that was lacking in my childhood. I just didn’t know.
Now I want to address, what I consider to be insulting as a woman with regard to the management of men and the differential between work and home. I don’t consider cleaning yourself up for a man a form of management, it’s a natural hygiene and personal fulfillment characteristic. I manage bills, responsibilities, airline tickets,etc., etc., for some women who are homemakers it’s running the household or managing your children, leading and teaching them to be morally upright citizens. If you have to manage a man to be in the relationship, it sounds like alot of work and a relationship you probably shouldn’t be in anyway. I think that if boundaries are set and there is mutual respect for each other, they won’t be crossed, that is not management, it’s mutual respect.
One other note, I think many women out there, including myself, would be very insulted/offended by your description of managing a company being a “masculine” trait. What you are saying, that by going into management at work that it really is a man’s position with a woman taking on that role This could not be further from the truth and insinuating that women are only feminine at home? Argh, where does that come from and what do you mean by that? That women are masculine by nature when they get into managment?…..Gail

Women are having sex on first dates and giving BJs instead of a goodnight kiss. It’s dangerous pysically and emotionally.
Why do it?
Why not postpone sex until you know that man is even worth it. Then when he shows that he isn’t worth it, he can be let go without her feeling the urge to “make it work” because she’s invested so much of herself.

I hope that after one date you are not going to be pressured into obliterating your own healthy boundary! Um, almost all men are opened sexually and want their women to be open too. That will still be there after you see if your conditions are met. They need to be open in other ways too.

Make sure you ask him all the right questions, if you have more dates, like if he has a girlfriend or wife, or what his long-term goals are in life, relationships, etc. Good luck, sweetie!

But, if you are clear about what you want, and he is aware of this, then he is the knob, not you.

Chalk it up to experience, knowing the red flags and move on…

btw, 99% of guys, even nice ones, will try something if they are attracted to you. maybe not right off the bat, but certainly by the second date or so. so don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater – just stand firm for yourself, he’ll figure it out and if he’s worth it, he’ll stick around….

if you do find this guy, let me know if he has a brother would ya?