Several years ago I bumped into an acquaintance who I basically knew via my ex. She seemed caught off guard to see me and made references to me ‘visiting’ and how was I enjoying it now that was ‘back’. Odd really as I lived down the street. When we met up a few months later at a party, all became clear when she explained that she had been confused about seeing me because she had thought I was living in the US because, wait for it, my ex had told her that the reason why we’d broken up was because I wanted to live in America and he didn’t. I should clarify, this was a complete fabrication on his part but unfortunately not the only one…
A few months before the party, I’d attended a launch party with a mutual friend and for the sake of not creating an awkward moment with the hosts husband, I’d had to pretend that my ex and I were still engaged, which was ridiculous considering we hadn’t spoken for a few months. Part of me wanted to make a tit out of him for pretending that we were still together while he was knocking off someone else, but the other part of me just couldn’t be arsed with the drama.
There is a moment or even sometimes a lengthier time than that, where when someone tells a lie about your relationship or outright fabricates a chain of events, you have to pinch yourself and check that what they say happened isn’t true. Had I lived in America and somehow slept my way through it? Was it my imagination that he’d refused to discuss things after we broke up?
The worst thing? Even when he knew that the jig was up, he still tried to keep up the story for a while longer! When we did eventually bump into each other at another party, he was distinctly uncomfortable with reality catching up with him, especially when I made it more than clear to everyone who asked that I’d been living in London the entire time.
I’m not alone in this experience – I’ve come across many men and women who have been involved with someone who either during or after the relationship has totally distorted reality. When these people are confronted, they can veer between denying the lies, to actually having the brass balls to attempt to bully you into taking up their version of events, and may even become really aggressive. In fact the more aggressive/hostile that they become, the more you know they’re not liking you interfering with their version of events. They’d rather you disappeared under a rock so that they can weave their web of lies unhindered. Where it can be particularly dangerous is if your self-esteem is wobbly enough that you’d actually question your own version of events/reality and even take on theirs. Another ex of mine told a lie where he basically said that I’d said something when I hadn’t. I think he was covering for someone else. Of course I denied it, but he’d already put it out there and I was feeling so much negative repercussions that I actually wondered if I had said it, convincing myself that maybe I’d got really drunk and totally forgotten it. Trouble is I hadn’t actually known the piece of information before I was accused of the ‘crime’ to tell anyone about it.
I see people create a lot of pain for themselves by trying to have a debriefing session with their ex. The problem: while it’s one thing if you both agree on what happened, who did what and yada yada yada, the reality is that it’s only people seeking to get their point of view and perception of things clarified that seek to debrief in the first place. It’s another form of seeking validation and invariably they get disappointed because the fact of the matter is that no-one wants to be told how things went, even if it is what happened. Nobody wants to sit through a blow by blow account of what happened and be told where they failed and most don’t want or need the weight of expectation that comes with someone that’s seeking the ‘truth’ about their emotional experience.
The biggest source of pain though is where when you actively seek to ‘change the mind’ of someone who even though they appeared to share the same experience as you, has a totally different reality to you.
Much like when I caution against trying to get someone who treated you poorly in the relationship to treat you well now that they’re out of it, if someone was pretty deluded in the relationship, dodged accountability and responsibility, and often told lies, distorted things, and actually has narcissistic tendencies, they will be this and worse outside of the relationship.
Relationships are subjective to an extent because there are emotions involved, but what is tricky to dispute is the chain of events that happened and things that were said.
What also needs to be recognised is that it is you that gets to decide how well you were treated – not them. It’s all relative and one person’s idea of treating someone well may be a rapid departure from someone else’s.
That same ex when I was foolish enough to remind him of how badly he had treated me said “What do you mean I treated you badly? It’s not like I cheated on you or beat you!”
This is why it’s so important for us to not only have boundaries so that we recognise how good or how bad we feel and what we do and don’t want to accept, but to also be prepared to be emotionally open and honest with ourselves so that even if they are deluded, we don’t participate in it.
When you’re prepared to be emotionally available and have honest conversations with yourself, you’ll feel uncomfortable when you recognise things that you have done that are not in your interests. You’ll feel your emotions, let your thoughts exist and work through them rather than shutting down anything you don’t like or are afraid of, and you’ll be living in reality.
This gives you an enormous amount of strength because no-one can tell you who you are, what you did, that the sky is green, or that they’re treating you great when they’re walking all over you, because you’ll know who you are and are comfortable in your own skin and the truth, even when the truth brings you bad news.
I know how frustrating it is to encounter someone who tells lies, distorts what happened in the relationship by carefully editing out their contribution while amping up yours or fabricating it, and then has the audacity to try to force their version of the truth on you and others. I’ve seen abusive people swear blind that they love the people that they mistreat and particularly through this blog, I’ve witnessed many a woman in particular throw away their self-esteem, time, energy, health, friends, family, and even money trying to be right.
You’re right even if they don’t tell you that you’re right. Any person who will lie, twist, and bully their way around you isn’t going to just roll over and be present to the truth. Even though they won’t qualify what you experienced or admit to their lies or mistreatment or whatever it is they’re distorting, your version of things is just as valid.
Having boundaries, treating yourself with love, care, trust, and respect, and being prepared to be emotionally available will enable you to validate your own truth. You know how you feel, you know what you did or didn’t do – you validate you.
Pain in the arse that it is, you also have to leave them to their devices rather than trying to invalidate their version of events. Obviously if it’s stepping into legal/professional circumstances then there are ways to deal with them, but if it basically comes down to trying to get them to admit the chain of events in your relationship, or own up to their mistreatment etc, if they’re not decent enough to step up, don’t force it.
When there is a wide gap between your ‘realities’ this represents a difference in values and mentalities. It just confirms how incompatible you are.
Don’t travel from here to eternity trying to force someone to share your reality and own up to your version of the truth. If you both don’t share similar values, particularly when it comes to integrity and honesty, you’re never going to share an honest, healthy relationship anyway.
It’s also important to acknowledge that distance gives objectivity and when we are too close to a situation or our emotions are too raw and getting validation is high on the agenda, our own truth can be a little, if not a lot distorted too. If you have illusions in your relationship and are in denial about who and what you’re involved with, you can’t handle the truth. When you do handle it, you have to do something and get out of the relationship.
You’ll realise that you’re being really honest with yourself when you know the reality and you’re OK with letting it be and getting on with your own thing instead of making it your vocation to ‘teach’ others the truth.
For about a year or so after I broke up with the ex that lied about me moving away, it bugged me that he was telling porkies to myself and others. It bugged me that he thought of me a certain way, that I may be blamed for things I hadn’t done, or that people may see me in a certain light. As my self-esteem grew and I found other things to preoccupy myself with, I acknowledged the all important truth – you cannot control the uncontrollable.
The truth does prevail. It might not do it on your beat and you may not be around to see the consequences of the truth prevailing, but it does so anyway. Let it be.
Your thoughts?
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Amen!!! This was the crux of the relationship with the AC and the reason for the complete shut down of our forced mediation. I have always known and seen that two people can have a conversation and each can leave having heard or experienced different things. Its called perception and filtering. We hear what we want to hear, what we expect to hear, sometimes what we need to hear. Part of being an adult is accepting this and allowing others to have their own perceptions or reality. Each version is equal, valid and “real” to the person that holds it. The problem comes when you run head first into a narcissist, who literally needs their version of reality (in which they are right, not responsible and never bad) to be mirrored back to them. While we all want and need validation, it can get to the level of pathological for some and I have now seen it with my own eyes. The good news for me was that I was expecting it and prepared. I had done the work on myself and no longer needed anything from him – no apology, no validation, no acceptance. His refusal to even allow me my reality seemed ridiculous and childish, but it no longer hurt me or challenged my self esteem. There was a moment at the end of our relationship, when he changed the rules and tried to convince me that I had imagined the entire relationship. At that time, my sense of self had taken a beating and I almost bought into it. At the last moment, I saved myself and have been working to reclaim myself ever since.
One of the most valuable lessons I have learned from this whole experience is that I can trust myself and know what happened. I don’t need anyone to mirror it back to me, I don’t need anyone to validate my feelings or confirm what happened. My sense of self is not derived from other people and what others say about me cannot alter who I am at my core. That is having boundaries and self respect. It took looking into the cold dead eyes of a malignant narcissist for me to see it. I now am living my life in such a way that I will never allow anyone to impose their will or control over me again. I decide who I want to be, and I accept that others do not have to see things my way. That I care about someone does not mean they have to care about me – it just means I need to use that information to stay away from them if they don’t.
I can say that the primary feeling I had in the relationship was one of confusion – what was really happening, why didn’t I understand what was going on, why did I feel I couldn’t say anything? I will never allow myself to be in that boat again. If I feel confused, I will ask. If he doesn’t answer, I will walk away. If he tries to tell me what to think or feel, I will walk away.
I am entitled to my reality. Everyone else is entitled to theirs. Only very bad people try to rob you of that.
@Debra: You’ve grown so much through this. I have really loved reading all your thoughts and observations. Yay!!
@ Debra
I am soooo proud of you girl – you have come so far!! I have followed your blogs and you are just growing in leaps and bounds.
Go girl Go Girl Go Girl
Debra-
I hear what you are saying about the sense of confusion. That happens alot with narcs, who try and force their version of history onto you, even for the simplest things. I had the same feeling throughout my relationship with my super narc. He was always trying to tell me what I was feeling or thinking or trying to rewrite what had happened. It left me feeling so confused and questioning my own reality. I agree with you: ask the questions and really listen to the answer, and always notice that no answer is still an answer. Good luck in the future. It might be scary now but it will be for the best. He was never worth your time.
You’re right, NML. It’s amazing how delusional people can be anyway, but especially when they feel like they have behaved in a way that they don’t like or want to have existed. I found it astounding that the AC completely overlooked all the real promises between us, and I had to really consider whether his version of reality – which could be summed up as me being essentially undesirable and our incompatibility making him unhappy – was true. It’s a hard thing to resist, actually, because they’re not really things that can be argued with in a conventional or objective way. Anyway, I put up a bit of a fight about a few things (i.e. I found it impossible to accept his apology for being a ‘bit sulky’), but I was also very careful not to take him to town on his stuff. I know, from breaking up with people, that you’re just not capable of being entirely honest at the start. Shame makes people act in weird ways – sometimes aggressively, almost always a little furtively and avoidantly. I know that the AC felt pretty terrible about kicking me to the curb, so any attempt I made at trying to get some communal understanding, let alone my version of reality on the bill, was simply too much for him. I have had the proper truth commission with one of my exes and we’re great friends now. We respect, trust and admire each other, but without that, it’s like running up a mudslide. With many things in life, but certainly conflict with an AC, you have to hop in the river, lie back, fold your arms and float away…lalalala! ; )
@Elle
“With many things in life, but certainly conflict with an AC, you have to hop in the river, lie back, fold your arms and float away…lalalala! ; )” LOVE IT!!
I love this too Elle – such a perfect way of putting it. It doesn’t have to be a struggle, a fight for truth, for validation, for honesty – it doesn’t have to be like jumping off a cliff screaming all the way or just beating your head off a brick wall.
I have had a few relationships end in my life in which I struggled terribly with the need for the de-brief, the truth, for what I perceived to be justice, the validation of my truth, the playing out of the ‘justice’ and all the whys and the why-nots and all the blah… blah… (to be fair I never had guys making up shit after the fact… as for the “current” ex EUM, he would not be talking about me anyway! Not even to me!). Part of my struggle in getting out of the “current” one with the ex EUM was that I was always buggered by my own fury and frustration in needing him to validate my truth, my reality, my feelings, his behaviour, my way of seeing it all… I was never getting any of it… and so I always crumpled and took what validation I could get, which meant staying in the relationship – on his terms.
You have put into words, Elle, exactly how I am trying to deal with my NC this time, and it seems to be working – I accept the futility of all of the above and I accpet that it is superfluous to my requirements! So instead of the struggle with fury and frustration, I hop in the river, fold my arms, lie back and float away… no struggle, no fight, no need for truths, half-truths – don’t need my feelings or my truths validated – I KNOW what it was like to be me in that relationship better than ANYONE. I know where I went wrong; I know enough of how badly he behaved and I do not want to know the rest of it that I do not know about. No Thanks. I know enough. I don’t want to know what his ‘take’ on anything is (he would never co-operate anyway, and anyway, I – don’t – care. I don’t want to do a (self) guilt trip, don’t want to penalise him, or penalise me. I just do not want to fight with it all anymore, fight it out with him, fight it out with me, fight with anything. I want to be at peace with myself.
And, Nat, you have it right on the money again; I just want to “let it be”. Anything else is stressful, energy draining, crazy-making and futile and wholly unnecessary.
All of the above I would have struggled with had it not been for reading this site and Nat’s blogs. All I have come to feel is: no more please.. whatever it is, it is. I can’t fix it. He can’t fix it. All I can do, all I need to make it better for me, is to lie back…let it be… fold my arms… let it be….relax… let it be… float away.
Thanks Nat for this blog at this time…it has affirmed for me that I am on the right track, as every time during this NC when I have felt the rise of panic, of fury, of frustration, I have said those very words to myself (now many times): ‘Let it go *my name*. Just let it be’. And thanks Elle for that pearl… you explained to me what I sensed I was trying to do, now I have words for it (and an image! And I look peaceful on your river!).
FEARLESS – my goal is to get where you’re at. I’d love to hear more about your story. I’m going through the motions myself but cannot get over the constant emotional drain of thinking about how unjust all of it seems. it’s been over 3 months and I’m just so tired and really, genuinely feel like I’m putting forth a solid, hell of an effort. I feel so stuck.
@The Holy Digit and MH (re your post below)
Holy D: “I’d love to hear more about your story” – O h no, you wouldn’t!! Believe me… my story is long… and even I do not understand it well eough to do it any justice! The short is I was seeing an EUM for ten years – on and off – of course! and I finally went NC four months ago (a couple of text blips – but still fighting for me!) Best thing I have ever done for myself in my life! I am sure my EUM is struggling now to understand just what happened here – but is this the face of someone who gives a shit anymore what he thinks 🙂 NC removes ALL of their power over us. It’s so excellent!
Looking for justice and understanding and telling him this and that and doing the whole post mortum, is not taking yourself and your power back. There are some things in life that are not worth the bother, some things we cannot fix and cannot do anything about. The secret is to just stop tormenting yourself and give it all a by and start to just like being yourself again. That wil come in time, but you may as well hurry it along.
I think I have had so many light bulb moments reading Nat’s posts these past four months that I just feel stronger, more determined to be in control of my own bloody life, my emotions and my relationships!
My first light bulb was reading about this thing called ’emotional unavailability’. For the first time I was not confused – I was floored, yes, distraught, for a couple of weeks or so…but I had found my answer to all of it – about him and about me. I didn’t like it, but it was undeniably my guy, me, and our relationship in black and white. I could not believe my eyes. And there was even a name for it!!
I knew then why it had all been just as it had all been and I knew my own role in it. I felt for the first time in ten years (yes, ten!!! Those of you sitting there wondering how long all of this/his crap can go on… answer is: as long as you let it!) that Ireally knew who he was – not suspected, not maybe, no hiding from it, no excuses for it. I knew. And I knew I had to face the facts: it was never, ever, going to change.
I had been waiting and hoping that he would do something about it, like either make it real for us or end it, and for the first time ever I realised that I had put all the onus on him. I blamed him for not ever “ending it”. I thought that because he had never ended it, this must mean there was still hope, i.e. if he didn’t want to end it, he must want it to work out, properly. Wrong. He was no more able to commit to me than he was to commit to ending it with me. And so I knew that it was not up to him to end it, it was up to me to end it. For me. One of us had to finally choose. And it had to be me, and I had to choose me.
I realised the power I had given over to him was just beyoned a joke. We really do pass so much of our own personal power over to these guys; it’s almost unbelieveable, but it’s true. And we have to, we must, claw it back. Or we are goners. I got that. Finally got it. That was my first realisation of what I had to do.
But how? No Contact is the answer, as Nat and others keep telling us. With NC you remove all of their power over you. This is the worst thing you can do to these assholes!! Enjoy it! It says it all for you. You do not need any words to ‘back it up’! That action speaks everything that you want or need to say. They already know the rest! They know they are totally crap boyfriends, believe me. They know fine and well.
This blog of Nat’s is not totally relevant to me, as in the telling lies after it’s over part, but the part that reminds me that I am quite right, is to not seek validation for anything but to just “let it be”.
MH, for example, you do not need to care what he thinks, what his girlfriend thinks, what ANYBODY thinks. You need to take back your own personal power. It is not about them anymore. They are HISTORY. Unless we want to be friends or have relationships with the guy, his girlfriend or their pals… why the F does it matter what any of them think anymore? Forget them. Five years from now (and much sooner), you will wonder what you were troubling yourself about with thse people.
And this is where this blog speaks to me: it reminds me that it is ME who needs to let be what is already done. I can’t change anything. There is no justice in these relationships anyway – and to cling to your need for it, or your need to be ‘understood’ is to continue to relinquish your power. None of it matters ANYMORE. Call it over! Call time! The fat lady has sung! Let it all be and get back to being and liking YOU as soon as you possibly can. The rest is all shit in a dirty barrel – why keep rolling about in it, trying to make sense of him and have him understand you – or have his next gf or their pals, or your pals understand you, or what an asshole he is – it is like trying to unravel a stupid ball of wool that you had dropped down the toilet pan, and that you are not even going to knit anything with. Throw it away!
Get behind me, Satan!
Head for Elle’s river – if it’s not getting a bit crowded by now!
Me too!! Brilliant visual. I am going to use that , when I start to think about my AC and his reality vs my own reality, I am going to “Hop in the river, lie back, fold my arms and float away , la la la la la!!!” Thanks for that!!
Hi fearless,
I can relate to everything you are saying and it is struggle at times.
My EUM gave me partial validation, almost full validation and you know what I learned about that, it doesn’t matter either way.
Even in the past whereby I dated a very cruel man for 6 years, I was given that intermitten reinforcement.
What I learned from both situations is when you go looking for validation you always want more and the desire never ends, so you will never be satisfied. The mistreatment trumps any validation they throw your way.
You might have a moments peace , a little relief, and sometimes I basked in it when I get too down about things.
However, in the long run I feel all the things you mentioned above so it doesn’t really matter now doee it. We are all seeking something that isn’t going to give us the relief we originally think it will.
If they say they are sorry and even recognized what they are sorry for it equals us saying well if you are sorry than why couldn’t you treat me better. Then we might even go on to believe then why can’t you treat me better now. It is almost a double edge sword. If they knew how they treated us badly then why can’t they make up for it and treat us good now. Maybe the ones that can do this are able to turn things around and maybe that is why none of our EUM’s can because they don’t believe they did anything wrong or most likely are too screwed up to look at themselves in order to.
The way my EUM validated me was I said I am not wanting him in my life anymore because I don’t like how he treated me. I told him to stop pressing the reset button things are not fine between us. I told him he hurt me.
His response was” Maybe you are the only one that realizes that you are getting hurt by me. Then he went on to try to prove to me that he was attracted to me.
I was bothered by the comment and I wasn’t. I realize that it was nice that he wasn’t doubting or arguing my perception of things. He even told me in a conversation that I am the only person that is bothered by his actions and that is probably because everyone else isn’t as smart to analzye it that way. Even though I agree with this statement, he wasn’t admitting to anything he was just acknowledging my take on things and I did appreciate that much. More now than I did back then. At the time I was too bitter to appreciate anything he had to say. It actually made me mad that no one else can see his actions the way I do because I want other’s validation as well.
However, reading todays post and the comments makes me realize I have to keep wrapping my head around not having the desire of needing other’s to see what I see.
I want his girlfriend to see what a waste of time he is. I hear on here about how all these guys screw woman around in relationships and I am wondering why this girl doesn’t feel screwed around. Granted I don’t talk to her or know what is going on her head, but I would suspect that I would hear something from my mutual friend, maybe she doesn’t know anyways. I wonder why things seem to be going so good. When he has contacted me in the past he said things were going good and he doens’t have to comprimised or change at all. I am wondering why all of us had it so rough and things seem to be going so smoothly for them. A friend of mine that just got a hold of me lately who use to see my EUM way back when mentioned to me when I told her that he is living with someone now if this girl had low expectations. It made sense but it does bugged me because he thinks his actions are okay because afterall she is not bothered by them. I know it is my issue to sort out it just bugs me but this is my validation issue I have to overcome.
I want his friends to see that he doesn’t treat women right. I want him to see that he is not a good friend and become the good friend I thought he was at one point.
He was always coming over and building, fixing and doing things for me. He would protect me if I needed it. He would help me out with cooking or cook for me, or I would cook for him. If I was making something he would also say he wants to bring something for the dinner. I guess we lacked in matching values and that was the problem.
fearless,
Thanks for the pep talk, well needed.
I want to adopt your attitude on the matter because I know it is 100 percent of the truth. I am the type that has to keep processing insight and put things into perspective to realize truths like this. I wish I could just see it here and automatically change my thinking because your thinking perspective on this matter is exactly where I need to be.
I will reread what you said to see if that will help in sinking in.
I tell myself what you said above but don’t totally believe it when I should. I know it is true but convincing myself to not care is what is the issue.
I even said what you said that I don’t talk to him anymore, I ignore his messages, I think he is finally going to go away soon because I am not giving him anything. They have nothing to do with me so why should I care what any of them think.
Yesterday I had troubles sleeping and was thinking of him somehow but he was not in my dream. I couldn’t see his face in my dream because I think in real life I don’t remember what he looks like. I remember wondering in my dream if he was going to show up at a place I have never been in real life but was a representation of a place he should show up at. I hated that I couldn’t sleep yesterday because today is the day I work both jobs and I am finishing up at one and I am exhausted and now I have to go to the second one. Luckily it is christmas party hosted for my clients, so I get to work hard and have fun too.
I don’t want him to have this power over me but I am not letting go of the anger or something and I am not sure how too.
I don’t have a huge social life and that plays a part. I find that most of my friends are not what I am looking for in friendship anymore. I just put up a bunch of boundaries with them lately. I am spending most of my time alone, so I have too much time to think about him. Probably because he was like my best friend who occupied most of my time before I told him were done, and since no one else has filled the void, except me, I have nothing else to look forward to. I have never been this isolated because I have a lot of friends but now with my new boundaries I don’t want to spend time with them.
I want to try new activities so I could meet new friends but I work too much at my two jobs where I don’t meet a lot o f new people, I have a very islolated jobs. Taking up a hobbie is next to impossible because I barely have time for the things that I need to get done at home on my barely days off. My fantasy lately is meeting new friends and a new guy later. I would be happy with some healthy new friends. I work six to seven days a week and double on a few of the other days I already work. This work schedule isn’t going to change anytime soon.
My only support is the few friends that I talk to who frustrate me because they are so unhealthy in their love lifes exactly what I am trying to get away from, so I find myself going in NC with them many times.
The only true support and reaching out I get is on here but I need to meet real people like myself.
People describe me as very genuine, fun, caring, full of integrity. I want those qualities in others. I am not finding them and I don’t know why. More like people trying to take advantage of me but now I avoid everyone and so no one can anymore but I have no life.
Sorry needed to unload fearless you don’t have to address any of this, I just needed to get it out in the universe so I could see it. This is why I think I dwell on my EUM because I have no healthy friends. I sure am choosing me because I think I am the healthiest person I know and I am working on becoming a lot more healthy.
Ha ha ha Fearless – “get behind me Satan” I just about fell off my chair laughing. Exactly.
No Contact is the only way to go… and sad to say I have been doing this longer than I’d like to admit. But here is the interesting thing about NC in my experience. Every guy I have gone NC on has come back. EVERY single one. Sometimes it is years, in one case it was 15 years, but eventually they all come back – and when they do, you are so over it you barely remember, and secondly, they aren’t doing it for an ego boost etc etc… they come back to apologize! So over the years it is percolating somewhere in the back of their heads. And also, I think when they start to have problems with every subsequent relationship, they start to elevate you as the “one that got away” and by the time that happens, you barely remember their names. I know it is cold comfort to anyone just days, weeks, or months into NC, but no matter what trash he is talking about you behind your back – go NC and maintain it without the debrief and with time he’ll regret that he ever let you go.
“When you’re prepared to be emotionally available and have honest conversations with yourself, you’ll feel uncomfortable when you recognise things that you have done that are not in your interests. You’ll feel your emotions, let your thoughts exist and work through them rather than shutting down anything you don’t like or are afraid of, and you’ll be living in reality.”
How timely is this? The holiday season is upon me and with it comes memories with bad feelings attached to them. It again reminds me of my part – the things I did that were not in my best interest. Anger, hurt, dissappointment soon followed. So this time instead of resisting – shutting them down – I had an honest conversation with myself – I felt my feelings – cried, ranted and raved and let them pass through me. I felt better afterwards – like a dark rain cloud had been lifted.
“…even when the truth brings you bad news. ” Its better to deal with it, accept it and forgive yourself for it. I loved your post the other day of An Ode to Every Woman. I was that woman then – I am not that woman now.
Hi Movedup,
I read this post today and it reminds me of all the other posts Nat is writing lately and how they are all representations of the stages we go through to work through the emotional stuff with our ex’s to get to the other side. I am hoping to hear more from those that have made it to the other side, like yourself. I think because many of us have left our relationships, many are at the now what stage. Well I am and I want to focus more on the preparation of the mind frame that is ready for healthy and was wondering if you could enlightened me?
Not trying to pry just want to work towards a different mind frame and was hoping you could share some insight.
You don’t have to go into detail but maybe a general idea of how you worked a few things out to get on the right path of meeting mr right? More of your methodical methods, not your personal pathways?
What mind frame were you in when you finally met the right guy?
Had you ever had a nice guy in your life previously or were you like me and never came across one before?
I am having a hard time even imagining what a decent guy would be like.
Is it better than you imagined? Meaning so many on here think it is going to be passionless, unromantic, unexciting with a decent guy?
I think we all fear that we will always think it would have been better with the EUM’s or AC’s if only they lived up to their potential? I am hoping you can shed light on the matter that it is better with a healthy, dencent guy and you don’t look back at the false potential of the jerks?
Anything you can think of that would be helpful would be appreciated.
I know my EUm distorted reality and I am so sick of thinking of all this garbage that I endured. I want to feel refreshed and hear some uplifting ideas of relationships.
Anyone who has found someone healthy is free to share. I want to know more of what to look for because all I have done is kissed frogs.
Hi MH!
My mindframe was at enough. More than enough! I knew what I did not want anymore. I moved into my new apartment to get a change of view from the old one. I learned to feel comfortable being alone. I maintained NC – most important! I wrote ALOT every night. I cried when I needed too. I got involved with a 12 step group and found my spiritual path that had long been set aside. I made cookies. I read everything I could get my hands on. If I felt like laying in bed all day – I did. It was tough – I am not going to say it wasn’t. The twisting and turning and ruminating seemed relentless. In an evening of my most despare after several glasses of wine and hours of crying – I stopped because I realized what I was doing was pointless. Then I wrote my list – my list of requirements – what characteristics, values, beliefs any man in my life would have to have to BE a part of my life.
I continued in 12 step – that is where I met Sparkey. He was there to work on himself too. So we did side by side as friends. We worked on committees together and took time to really get to know each other. It felt good to laugh again. It felt good to smile. I still had slip ups now and then – I still do have moments and I let them pass. I met him when I wasn’t looking – he is not my usual “type” – at least the type the ones in my past were. No I would say this is my first healthy relationship in my life. I am 47 so what does that tell you. I had alot of history to sort through and tie together my personal pattern – then dismantel it. I am still a work in progress. Progress not perfection.
The biggest thing, besides everything Nat has mentioned in her articles, has been acceptance. I accept that he is who he is and that is that. There was and is nothing I can ever do about that. So… I didn’t see it then – I see it now -very clearly. There is no point in continuing to beat a dead horse.
The point is – Sparkey and I took the time to get to know each other and both of us have had our enough moments and are willing to work together on our relationship and on ourselves. It does take two with all feet in. It is the most amazing thing not to walk on eggshells for once, not to have feel insecure about anything, stepping out of your comfort zone is scary at first but well worth the trip.
I would like to see Nat write something on committment – what does it look like to you?
MH, Moved up, done as dinner
I have enjoyed reading your posts. Thanks. You are wise women!! I cannot imagine my EUM ever coming back – he is a stubborn, pig-headed git. And I cannot imagine him coming back to apologise for anything… he may think I was the one that got away but he will do nothing about it.. anyway.. interesting idea but I would just tell him his time for sorry was x number of years ago and he missed the bus – the bus to Sorry Street left a long time ago! He’d be told that “sorry” just doesn’t cut it – not nearly! He would know that. He told me soon after I met him that he would probably end up one of those lonely old men sitting in a library all day poring over his books… he’s doing it already! – he’s a very successful academic in one of the top universities in the world (big job for a wee boy!!), and that is what he reallyloves and connects with – books and his work. Not me (boo-hoo!!).
When we “fell out” he would say (actually text, not say) things like “When I come to your door with something to offer I wouldn’t blame you if you told me to bugger off ‘ and I’d say back ‘I wouldn’t blame me either – I’d blame you.’
I agree with what one of you said about you just have enough of the misery of ruminating and maudlin and upsetting yourself… comes a point that you see the utter futility of it all – that you are only continuing to hurt yourself – that your misery becomes purely of your own making and no-one else’s; you reach a point when you realise that you are actually doing it to yourself… you have no-one left to blame and if you want to be better YOU have to make it better – and no-one else can or will do it for you.
When we reach that point we sit up and get both feet in the real world where we have to take charge of what is happening to us and how we are dealing with it – and stop looking back at him and reaching still to him and his as if some answer lies there, as if some peace or equilibrium can be got from him or his – it doesn’t and it can’t. I see this now; I never did before.
Everyone will have the point where as you, movedup, I think said above, when enough is enough. It’s like a fever that has to run its course, but you can make it better faster if you realise that when you have put your own head in the lion’s mouth – you have get it out. Must is a great master. I am becoming better at the power of positive thinking – you can, to a certain extent control what goes on in your own head… the worst thing we can do is wallow in our own misery, feed off self-pityand fuel this in an almost gluttonous way where we actually gorge on the misery and pain or anger or frustration until we are a physical and emotional wreck sitting there on our todd with the rest of the world going about it business and with nothing to show for our tears and fury but empty wine bottles, full ashtrays and snotty hankies!! – It all goes into the ether and tomorrow comes anyway, just the same. As my now gone dad used to say in the midst of a ‘silly’ crisis (God rest his grumpy old soul xxx), ‘the buses’ll still run in the mornin'”
No-one says it’s not hard…it’s a total f**ker. It is terrible – the whole awful situation is dreadful all round. But we will all move forward in the end, cos no man can hold back tide nor time… and time is a great healer (I am a master of cliches tonight!!). I feel for you MH – you work too hard and play too little – same as me!! But you are a wise woman and ‘this too will pass’ – and you will find your place in the world – and a place of your own making. I wish you well!!
I wish you all well and thankyou for your thoughts. They help me keep perspective a great deal.
Sooner or later we will all think these immortal lines:
“Quite frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn”
and
“Afterall, tomorrow IS another day!”
Loved this Fearless – thank you. He may come back or not, the delight in it though is that for the first little while of NC that is all you wish for, but by the time something kicks into their own brains that they decide now is the time to ring you up… you are done with them and could care less. And voila, just like that the shoe is on the other foot.
You are dead right about makers of our own misery – and life is too short and there is so much out there that we are missing when we insist on hanging on to something that never was. NEXT!
Moved up,
Thank you this is what I was curious about.
I feel I am on the right track thank you.
A couple of questions if you feel up to answering, did you feel isolated from friends because of your new boundaries? Did you meet new friends everntually with your new boundaries?
I too would like to see more of these types of posts from the insightful Natalie. She has been so helpful in finally helping me see the light about emotionally unavailable people. I have been talking to friends for years about my mirror theory, and many of Natalies theories were mine too but friends didn’t seem to know what planet I was coming from with my theories. When I found this site it is like I found my planet and my fellow aliens who believe in so many of the same beliefs that I do.
Natalie also taught me new theories I had never discovered before and she was on target with some of the new learning I was discoving about changing inner beliefs. That is what I typed that led me to this website.
I knew then why it had all been just as it had all been and I knew my own role in it.
When I read this above comment from fearless this is what I thought and felt when discovering Nats post and ideas.
I remember thinking wow, there is an explanation for all of this madness. My gut was speaking the truth and I wasn’t imagining this all. I had already left my EUM but I felt alone in my alien thinking ways and wondered if I was being too sensitive. A thing my dad tried to drill in my head all my life to protect me he said. Yes this issue came up when I discovered my boundaries even further after finding this website.
I have come to so many raw terms after finding this site. I know I have conquered so much in such a short time and I have to keep going.
MH – I recently went through something very similar – a complete change in my life and along the way I found I had to let go of some dear and long term friends as our interests and focus simply weren’t compatible any longer. But at some point you have to think about energy in and energy out. If you find you are investing energy into a black hole that will suck it in, and release nothing in return (whether that be a romantic interest or a friendship), you have to wonder about the energy that you are unable to give to something that is mutually rewarding. One of the things I have been thinking about a lot, is that if you are emotionally unavailable/afraid of commitment (as I have come to terms with perhaps I am) that can extend to your selection of friends as well. You surround yourself with people you give and give and give to, and you wonder why you feel so invisible, deflated and exhausted after a while. And yet, when someone shows up who seems generally interested in you, spending time, giving back etc. you run like mad for the hills (at least this has been my experience), so all that to say, is this your pattern? It was mine and I started to think about it a lot, and realized that I didn’t want to continue on this way. So I have shed a number of friends and romances as a result. At first it was very very lonely and isolating and many times, I thought what am I doing? But, what worked for me, was finding outside interests exercise, arts, hobbies etc. that I really loved and pursuing those. It took time, but I began to meet people who shared these interests as well and with time friendships were struck up. Now my life and the people in it are completely different. So the question is, how do you want to spend your energy? If you are throwing it into a black hole that sucks it deep in the vortex releasing nothing in return, that is energy wasted that you cannot give to something/someone that returns it to you. Sorry – this is a long answer to tell you that it will be okay. You are in a period of transition, clearing out the old stuff in your life, to make way for the new. Kind of like cleaning out your closet, at first it looks pretty barren, but eventually, you begin to hang new clothes in the space you have made. Follow the things that interest you, the rest will come.
doneas dinner
I enjoyed your post below; it was motivating. And I am glad for you to say this as it is what I want to do to now that I am cleaning out and moving on from the old to the new, which is, I admit, pretty scary)
you said:
“Follow the things that interest you, the rest will come.”
Thanks for that wee pearl! I like it. It suits me. I shall wear it and wear it well! 🙂
Did you feel isolated from friends because of your new boundaries? Did you meet new friends everntually with your new boundaries?
Yes – I lost some and gained some but the most important thing was that I always have me. I am the one I have to look at everyday in the mirror. I am the one I have to live with. Every where I go – there I am. Best to live your life with integrity and let your personal electric fence serve you and you will have fewer regrets. Respect yourself and it does not matter if others do or not- thats their choice – I am ok with me and that is all I need. You might say I am becoming my own best friend.
Thaks Natalie, your article has just reminded me of the lies my EX- EUM used to say, and I used to overlook, it was lies about why he didn’t answer the phone or why he didn’t call back. I used to rationalize that they were “not that important”, but if reality, they really bugged me. It annoyed me that he lied about it. But I put up with it.
No more, lies are lies, and after all he is a “lier”.
thanks
I heard this a few weeks ago and posted somewhere else on here, but wanted to reitterate it.
“When I quit lying, people quit calling me a liar”.
Natalie, you are SOOOO RIGHT on this one. My A/C twisted reality so bad. Things that actually happened or he said when I was there, well, later he claimed never happened. Actually, my A/C asked for a “debriefing” at “some future date.” However, I knew this was another way of trying to keep his “hook” in me. I told him such. He denied it. Then I got so mad I kept after him for eight more months just go get him to honor his “debriefing” request. He decided to “punish” me by reneging on the “debriefing” request. But you are right, I just wanted validation, I wanted my version to be the accepted one. I wasted eight months doing this.
Mine lived in a different state. I went to stay with him at his place. Despite all the fights, discussions, etc, while I was there, on the day that I walked out, he had the audacity to say that he thought things were “turning around” for me because I was “finally making friends” in his state. HUH? Like THAT was the reason I was leaving????? And every time we had a “discussion,” he would just give me this blank stare, like he was seeing right through me and not even processing a thing that I said.
Like I have said before, I’m lucky mine didn’t cheat on me. Oh, I’m SUCH A LUCKY WOMAN cuz he didn’t cheat on me. And he’s SUCH A GOOD MAN. Means NOTHING when he’s an A/C in every other respect!
I think anyone who reads this blog usually finds it after they have been “wronged” like I did. But if you happen to be reading this blog out of curiosity, and haven’t been “wronged” yet, well, the first “clue” to a guy like this is their little “sad sack” stories about “women just don’t stay with me” and I’m “such a nice guy…..” When they keep trying to convince you over and over that they are “such a nice guy…..” well, start paying attention for other “red flags.” If they really were such a nice guy, they wouldn’t need to convince you.
“women just don’t stay with me” and I’m “such a nice guy…..” When they keep trying to convince you over and over that they are “such a nice guy…..” well, start paying attention for other “red flags.” If they really were such a nice guy, they wouldn’t need to convince you.
I could agree with this more! This is exactly the poor me talk I had from the AC.
Nat, your post today comes at a crucial time for me (I’m NC). It reminded me what I told him D-day three years ago when his wife came back home to him after having an affair that ended and he wanted to stay married – break it off with me, no intimacy – but remain friends. I said I didn’t know about the friends part (after that I didn’t get in touch much.) But that I had my truth and he had his. I had my memories and he had his.
No amount of wanting an apology from him at the time was going to get me one. He simply is a cold AC and doesn’t see what he has done as wrong. (Hurt somebody and treat them like crap).
I see another story to him. But I never wanted to know his side of the story because I do not care to tell him mine. It’s mine and I own my truth, my part in it what I did wrong and what I did right.
I do know our realities of the situation was totally different. Because of that and many other things I knew he wasn’t the man for me because HIS reality of the relationship was the better one, the right one and screw me or my feelings.
It makes me feel sad when I write it so bluntly. It makes me realise how wrong I treated myself in not turning my back on this toxic situation, sooner.
Mine never stops whining about “Poor Me” either. Ex didn’t show him affection; friends don’t give him enough this or that. And stupid me wanted to give him everything that he so desperately needed and everyone withheld. Turns out all he needs is narc-supply.
And yes, always telling me he’s one of the nice guys, would never hurt a woman, etc. Yeah, so how come you hurt me more than anyone else in my whole life?
He’s so proud of not being an “abuser” of women, but, in fact, I’d rather he’d punched me because then I would have left him instantly, instead of this long, s l o o o o o o w and infinitely more painful emotional and psychological torture he’s put me through.
“He’s so proud of not being an “abuser” of women, but, in fact, I’d rather he’d punched me because then I would have left him instantly, instead of this long, s l o o o o o o w and infinitely more painful emotional and psychological torture he’s put me through.”
I wonder what is worse: Physical abuse, or psychological abuse? The A/C’s just don’t get it. As long as it’s not “physical,” it’s ok. Well, psychological abuse is just as bad, and I think it takes longer to heal from emotional scars. Oh, wait a minute. It’s not “abuse” because it’s not “physical.” That’s all guys understand. They don’t get “psychological.” That’s because you can’t “see” psychological scars.
I think my A/C got messed up from someone earlier in his life. I asked him, “who messed you up?” and he denied any mistreatment from anyone earlier in his life. Again, if it’s not “physical,” guys just don’t “get” it.
WastedLove,
He is an emotional abuser, and can still fall under that category. He just isn’t a physical abuser. I don’t know if he has ever verbably abused you but still emotional abuse is still a sign of an abuser.
No. He hasn’t verbally abused me. He shouted at me precisely twice in 2.5 years, when having a rage. Even then he didn’t call me names. He’s always sweet, kind, complimentary, polite, gentle (even now after I’ve told him I’m not seeing him any more). Where he drove me slowly half insane was subtle and insidious, never openly abusive. It’s to long a story.
Wasted love,
I can relate my EUM never physically or verbablly abused me either. I held onto him as well because of his sexy body. I was emotionally abused by all the EUM stuff too.
I also held on because he is the closest I have ever gotten to being treated somewhat decent by a man. He didn’t have the charming side though he was the take me as I am kind of guy and I guess because my first ex was the charmer I don’t trust that type. He was a talented, had lots going for him so it was easy to like him, and he was really funny.
I once loved a show like I have never loved a show in my life. It became my new focus after I left an abusive relationship of six years. When the show ended another show came in it’s place very soon after and that show started to make me feel excited again like the other show but it was cancelled quickly. Since both of the shows are now gone I haven’t felt that kind of passion for a show since. I feared that my EUM was the closest I would ever get to love. Meaning love is not in the cards but someone caring about me strongly is my life prophecy and that was it. I think this because it hasn’t happen so far yet. So I feared that my last chance of getting close to a guy past already like those two shows I now feel I miss out on and nothing has come into its place.
We were not an item but both of us being single was what needed to remain in order for us to so call continue our saga. He spent the whole two years trying to convince me to stay single while the whole time he sounded like he was contemplating the idea of making the girl he called his booty call his girlfriend. He denied it and I would asked him if he was going to make her his girl he’d better let me know because I won’t be the other woman. He said he is never going to make her his girl because he doesn’t want a girlfriend but if he did he would pick her. He told a half truth. He said he wouldn’t pick me because I won’t put up with his asshole ways. I said I am not in the running.
I don’t think I would be so bitter now if he wasn’t always trying to convince me that getting a boyfriend was such a stupid idea. He was on my case about it and I use to get mad at him. He tried to make it like he wasn’t making a big issue out of it but that is his distortion of reality. When a friend tells another friend hey I would like to meet someone and have boyfriend they should encourage you not say a statement against the idea everytime the person mentions it. On the flip side, I just told him to let me know ahead of time if he is going to make BC girl his girlfriend, so we could stop what were doing.
Deep down I wanted him to stay single to continue to meet my needs that he was always encouraging me to rely on him for. I also realize he is not the right guy for me because he drove me nuts and I would probably never love him or fall in love with him. I have to keep facing reality myself and STOP INDEALIZING HIM.
THEY ARE NOT THE BE ALL END ALL ARE THEY WASTED LOVE, WE WILL FIND BETTER BECAUSE OF OUR DETERMINATION.
@ Wasted Love
“I’d rather he’d punched me because then I would have left him instantly, instead of this long, s l o o o o o o w and infinitely more painful emotional and psychological torture he’s put me through.”
I agree TOTALLY! Also, when they punch you, you see the bruise and you know you are NOT crazy – that they really hit you – you have evidence!! I am NOT advocating to trade one for the other by the way!!
Ladies, I get what you’re saying about the whole you’d rather they punched you but the fact is that I have many readers who have been punched. It’s not to be taken lightly and it’s not a ‘better’ alternative. Fact of the matter is that like you guys, they still stay too. It’s very easy to say, ‘If I were punched, I’d be straight out of there’ – when you all think of what you have put up with from people in the name of a relationship and bearing in mind that you may have little or no boundaries, you actually have no real idea what you would do in that situation. I’d like to think you would leave. You all have evidence of their mistreatment of you – you just do nothing with it. You’re like a CSI sitting in a room full of evidence, looking for one more thing to happen or second guessing yourself, or waiting for them to say how bad they are. Have some boundaries, acknowledge who you are, your feelings, your experiences – acknowledge YOU. When you do this and stop letting the sun rise and set on ‘them’ and doing such things as letting your vagina make your decisions for you, you will realise that you’re not crazy. And I should add – you are all seeing strangers from around the world on this site who have experienced what you have. It’s not unique, you’re not going crazy, there isn’t another explanation – they are what they are, and it is what it is.
I’d like to reply because I’m the one who said “If I were punched, I’d be straight out of there”. I need to explain what I meant, so nobody misinterprets my comment as meaning I take physical violence lightly (In fact I mean the opposite!)
I’ve never been in any kind of abusive relationship before, but my father was physically violent and I despised him for it. I’ve also heard and read a great deal about men hitting women. So, I am on the lookout for it, sensitive to it, operate a Zero Tolerance to it, so if a man ever hit me I literally would have left him that moment.
But I was never on the defensive against a Prince Charming. The fairy tales taught me to love him. I had no idea that falling deeply, passionately for a man who appeared sweet, kind and laid-back would turn into a long, slow torture and end with my heart ripped out and shattered into a million pieces.
So I re-iterate: yes, I’d rather he’d raised his hand to me 2 years ago then I would have walked and saved myself all this heartbreak.
WastedLove, being beaten is not the only marker of an unhealthy relationship as you know already. I’ve already commented earlier to Aimee, but I will add this:
If this is what Prince Charming looks like to you, in fact if this is what a relationship with Prince Charming looks like to you, I suggest you return your fairy tale books and get a refund.
hi natalie, i think some of us (i was, not anymore), are brushing emotional abuse under the carpet. ignoring you and not taking a call and basically disappearing, while proclaming to want to be with you, is in my view, emotional abuse. this is my first experience of being in a relationshp wth an eum and it’s been just horrible for me. i wasn’t hit but he might as well have hit me because i felt like i had been hit over the head with a hammer, when i was ignored etc. i think its time we woke up and recognised emotional abuse before it actually begins to feel normal and becomes the norm in the relationship. that’s scary to think that could have happened to me, if i decided to stay but i didnt. we have an organisation here for domestic abuse and their motto is “you don’t need a bruise to be abused”.
Amen Audrey! Without going into the ins and outs, there was physical abuse in my family and there was also emotional abuse. I’ve also known many people who experienced it and continue to do so through this site. Either way you look at it, neither is good and both are abuse.
hi natalie, sorry to hear 🙁 and the moment you were slapped your boundaries were broken. i had the same growing up and i have to learn boundaries. i believe that people who grew up in a healthy environment automatically have boundaries. for me, the lack of boundaries in my life is one of the legacies of child abuse. man, its been a long road to self love.. xoxo
Audrey (below):
“ignoring you and not taking a call and basically disappearing, while proclaming to want to be with you, is in my view, emotional abuse.”
Very well put! And these are the lies they tell us about the relationship and their contributions to it – during OR after the fact. It’s not juts lies, it’s devious. This is why trying to seek validation AFTER THE FACT is hopeless – they could not be honest about the relationship they were having with us or their contributions to it while we were seeing them – what hope is there in hell after they’ve gone or after we are trying to stick with NC!!
I certainly felt I was being taken for granted, told a lot of pish – he INSISTED he wanted to be with me and would be with me – just not “right now”!! “Right now” went on for years! And he did the whole disappearing, silent treatment just to contradict everything else he said. Audrey, you are spot on! It is abusive. And yes Natalie – we do have ALL the evidence we need.
We take an emotional battering with these men and we DO have the evidence for it. US! We are the evidence. That we are posting on this site is the evidence! And we did not do anything about it.
Nat is totally right – as ever! We should not be pitting one (emotional) against the other (physical) as if physical abuse is preferable – or easier to walk away from – plainly it is not preferable nor is it any easier, or we would not have so many perfectly clever and competent women in the world feeling stuck in that situation.
I would also totally concur with Natalie that as many of us have already tolerated the intolerable, we are in no position whatever to pontificate about what we would and would not tolerate – what’s to pontificate about? Our boundaries? Please! What boundaries are those? It’s easy to say you have a boundary when it’s never been tested with the man YOU happen to be ‘in love with’ – it’s easy to talk about what we’d put up with from another woman’s man… we can all have boundaries when it comes to someone else’s man!! That’s easy!
The fact that some of us contest that we are the ‘proud owners’ of some big bastion of a boundary after showing clearly that we have (or had) absolutely none, is testimony to the fact that it is not only “him” who lies about the relationship and “his” contribution – we can be just as guilty of doing it FOR him – and lying to ourselves about his contribution – and our own.
I don’t mean to be brutal – but honestly.
Can I just suggest to wastedlove (below) that it is time to stop blaming oxytocins (??whatever), hormones, fairytales and Prince Charmings and all the rest… and start taking some ownership. I could see the point if you were five.
Sorry to be blunt but it has to be said. F
WL
Your reasoning is exactly the same as the reasoning of women who are in a physically abusive relationship. I’m sure you know that physical abusers don’t hit you on the first date. They DO start out as Prince Charmings. They CAN treat a woman well (for short periods anyway). They CAN be very polite and sweet.
I’m not saying this to pick an argument, but I’m very concerned that you’re not seeing the core problem of your situation. You are with someone who is treating you like crap. In your mind, you justify staying because other women are being treated even worse. You seem to think there is something about your situation which is unique and makes it impossible for you to leave. You seem to think that women in LDs have it easier than you, women who are hit have it easier (cos its easier for them to leave), younger women have it easier.
Every single one of us has found it a long and difficult journey. Every one of us has unique aspects to our situation. We’ve all been in love too, and sexually addicted, and been with men who are charming, great fun, sweet etc.
But every single one us has to get out and cut contact. There isn’t another solution. If there was, someone would be lauding it. Because between the hundreds of women here we we have tried every single tactic and I have not read a single post saying that an alternative tactic to NC worked better!
@ Nat
My AC 22 years ago was physically abusive – so I have been on both sides. I definitely was not advocating it – my mother helped start the Battered Women Shelters in Colorado (she was a psychologist). I was just merely stating that there are some different repercussions mentally and emotionally (as well as physcially) between them.
I watched it growing up – my dad hitting my mother, I too was extensively beaten 22 years ago. Needless to say that has NOT, nor WILL IT EVER BE TOLERATED again!
Hi Aimee, I didn’t think you were advocating it but what was in essence a private discussion between you and a few others did result in a few emails to me. It is very difficult to interpret tone sometimes and what I really wanted to make clear is neither is a good situation and it’s not about comparing wounds or wishing one over the other. You’re entitled to your opinion but on this site and when you post comments, it is important to recognise that if there is a possible other way for your comment to be taken, it can be taken that way.
Everyone who posts about the traumatic experiences they have endured as a result of falling in love with an EUM or AC deserves to have their reality respected and not deleted and replaced by someone else’s version of it.
Everyone who tries to make sense of why they feel for the EUM or AC deserves credit for being able to analyse all the things in their upbringing, in society and in themselves that made them vulnerable to falling in love with such a person. They should not be mocked and ridiculed.
Everyone who shares their painful truths deserves to be respected and listened to properly, and not misquoted, or told that what they *really* meant was the opposite of what they wrote.
Everyone who decides to get out of a relationship that isn’t any good for them must be allowed to leave or go NC according to their OWN natural timetable and not have one imposed on them by an internet stranger.
Do we all agree on the above?
@Fearless. I find your responses to my posts aggressive. You do not know better than me how I would react to something. Your last para openly mocks and ridicules me. I feel bullied by you.
@Grace. You completely misunderstood, misinterpreted and misquoted everything I wrote. You are denying my reality and replacing it with yours. I fell disrespected by you.
Reading F and G’s postings I feel they have both overstepped the mark and are coming across as not “just being honest” but aggressive towards anyone who won’t do as they say, or who wants to do it according to her own timetable.
Don’t fall into the trap of believing that our situations have no individuality. We are not clones and neither are the ACs. Stop trying to force on everyone the belief that there is only one reality and only one solution which we must not only follow it, but follow according to a stranger’s timetable and not when it feels right for us.
I’m breaking from this man little by little, in my own way and to my own timescale, as suits my particular individual and unique circumstances. If I feel the need to see him once or twice more, to do two practical things that we had already agreed to do before I dumped him, that is MY decision.
As an educated, intelligent, independent middle-aged feminist, I object to being ridiculed, mocked and misquoted and I won’t be bullied and ordered what to do and when to do it. The huge irony is, the man I am leaving never did ANY of those things to me.
I think you, Fearless and Grace have all made your points. I have published this and Fearless’ most recent comment but for the sake of 1 not using the blog like a forum and 2 staying on topic, and 3 not making me or other readers uncomfortable leave it at that. When the accusations of bullying start then I know it’s time for me to rein in the comments. Fearless and Grace, I know you mean well but WastedLove has stated her position and anything you say now may be perceived as hassling. Just leave it.
@NML
I absolutely agree – and will work on monitoring my comments. I do not ever want to imply abuse in any form is ok and acceptable. No offense to anyone on this site was meant by my comment.
My daughter dated within a large social group. Her ex AC had told her (and everyone else) that his 3 previous long term GFs were “Crazy.” When my daughter broke with him early, after his initial misstep; he tried to say the same about her, but her reputation for sanity, reliability, kindness, etc., was so stellar, that it didn’t fly. As she put it, “It didn’t work this time. Everyone knows that I’m not crazy.” Hooray!
This is truly an amazing post, I just went through a very similar experience with an old friend at a party. When he walked into the room I knew something was wrong and he proceeded to try an embrass me by totally distorting a conversation we had had many years ago. I was in total shock……. this was the first time I saw his dark side. I stood my ground by giving him the evil eye and shaking my head. It appeared to scare him and he got up and left the table. My intuition was not to get into an argument with him. I realized that memories get faded over time however I have a pretty good memory. I truly believe in there are three sides to every story yours, mine and the truth. I believe in the truth shall prevail!!! Trust your boundaries ladies and I don’t expect to ever get an apology from him.
“When there is a wide gap between your ‘realities’ this represents a difference in values and mentalities. It just confirms how incompatible you are.”
Just LOVED this sentence!! Nat you are so awesome – thank you so much for the wonderful, insightful, inspiring articles. Especially the last 4-5 – about us – so inspiring for us to grab our power back.
My mom use to say to me “I may not like what you do, but there is nothing worse, that I can’t stand, is a liar”. I didn’t get what she was talking about until I was with my 1st AC 22 yrs ago – evidence in hand, in his face, and he was STILL DENYING! I even had to look at the evidence again – for some reason they seem to have the knack to get you to deny reality when it is hitting you in the face! LOL
I have had 10 wonderful days in a row – yeah!! I think I am back and stronger than before him. Love to all of you!! I even had a wonderful Thanksgiving and did not miss the AC.
What is interesting – I received a message last night and another today from the ACs sister and brother-in-law wanting to talk to me – not sure what to do? Any suggestions Nat, girls & guys? I love them very much, they love me, but I just don’t want to get pulled in again. I also received a call from my brothers friend from growing up and he wants to take me on a date – so I think I will go. He also confirmed that my brother (in San Diego by the way) is a major ASSCLOWN!!! And then I found out my dad had an affair with a family friend back in the 70s/80s. I NEVER believed that my Dad was a cheater! What the hell??!!
aimee
I expect his family are trapped in his lies – as you were – and are trying to drag you back in. After all, with you out of his life, he is probably toxifying (not sure that’s a real word) them instead and they would rather you were there to take the brunt of it. Or he is spinning some sob story about how you have hurt him and are ignoring him etc.
On the other hand, they may have genuine concern for you, in which case they will respect whatever boundaries you put in place. And if that boundary is that you can no longer have anythng to do with his friends/family then so be it.
I don’t care to debrief, the thought disgusts me.
He called himself a “good guy” because he doesn’t “beat” women, blah blah.
He couldn’t treat a woman properly if the world was ending. I’m slowly gaining my self-esteem and I’ll be damned if I let him near me. I pray to God I don’t ever run into him, because deep down I still want him back (yeah, I’m messed up.) Hopefully soon I won’t though. I want to forget him so bad! I feel I’m traveling slowly along the path to healing, and I’m staying NC.
@ Nat – quit cranking these out so fast – I am getting behind and I don’t want to miss a thing!! LOL
LOL! I’m glad I’m not the only one having trouble keeping up!
I’m LOVING it! Having one Nat in your life is like having a chorus of good friends in your ears! My real friends are all “maybe he’ll call soon” while Nat’s all ‘forget that wanker!’ I love it. Gimme the tough love!! 😀
I’ve been there! I had an ex who had such a different reality than I did. Eventually I decided that I wasn’t going to let him make me feel crazy anymore, like I had been the one misleading the situation. He was just such a charismatic liar. But, I decided my truth and did what I needed to do.
I’m sad these men are out there and that other women have had to deal with it too, but thank you for giving us an avenue to understand and explore these kinds of damaging relationships.
@ Debra, once again it sounds as if so many of our experiences were with the same man. The only difference between yours and mine is that we had no mediation. He just behaved in the typical A/C narcissistic manner and dropped me like a hot potato, when he was done with me. I think it is important to note that we all do have our own perceptions and views of what happens in our lives and in relationships, but the particular challenge is when we are involved with an evil A/C histrionic narc. The challenge is to our own psyche, the cognitive dissonance from the game playing and manipulation they are so good at, causes us the extreme emotional distress and need for validation of what occured. These men often contradict themselves in conversations and actions. For example telling you they love you, they want a realtionship with you, they think it can work. You agree and express the same feelings, then, two statements later he says,” I love you but”….and “I just think we should keep it casual”. And their actions are contradictory too. We have all been pursued by these men, wooed by them, been given their attention, love and affection. Then they drop the bomb, the next week, out of the blue, he starts an arguement, about nonsense which he then masterly escalates into time needed apart.
In going through a divorce and dealing with my ex, I have had a better time than going through the break-up with my A/C narc evil creature. I never set out to hurt my ex and truly still feel guilt that I did. I admit my mistakes so has my ex, we are still sad that we hurt each other but we have two beautiful boys to parent and love. My Ex and I are still healing, this is why I was so ripe for the A/C. But Luckily I had some basis of self-esteem and boundaries, although admittedly weak. I felt so validated in my decision to do NC,(but (laughingly) broke it last week in answering his call,) when I heard, really heard, what he was saying. He is without a doubt, lacking in empathy, selfish and deceitful. All the alarms were ringing just listening to him talk about himself, his alcoholism, his new girl and asking me who Im seeing. Not once did he ask how I was. He was more concerned if my Ex was going to beat him up. ( No i did not leave one for the other)Apparently he is very concerned about seeing me in town out with someone he knows. He also expressed concern about what people thought of him. I just kept thinking who the hell is this guy, and why did I stay with him for 2 years…. Yuch! NC is a wonderful way to distance us from the source of turmoil but it is difficult, especially when we’ve been dumped. I do regret not breaking off myself, but every time I tried “space” he pulled me back, and my boundaries were very low. My tolerance for his horrible disrespect/then loving attention was extremely high. I still struggle with my memories and emotions but my opinion of him is more real, interestingly validated by many other non-A/C mature men and women. Tough to live in a small town, and not have a certain reputation after so many years….. I will not speak poorly of him to others, and have not, except here, my counselor and my trusted girlfriends. Others have told me that I am so lucky and better off now to be away, more that I can count on two hands. Whoevers version is the truth, we have to live with OUR version. I choose mine any day in this situation. I am getting there slowly but surely.
Bravo NML you are right on! Ladies read on, learn, trust yourself, and love yourself. I do not need him for anything, but the fears I had, that I thought he would ease, are now finally being met head on by me. Not fair of me either to put so much expectation on another, but I am learning even at my age of 45. Laugh! I still struggle with feeling rejected, but I feel more peaceful instead of painful. And all those alarms are ringing loud and clear, no longer repressed and dampened. I do dread seeing him, so I know that NC for a few more months is necessary. I am addicted to this blog, you are helping me save myself.
@ Susan: I can so identify with what you are saying! I’m in the same age group as you, too.
It’s difficult when we listen to these AC narcs after a time apart and to get a shock. “Who do they think they are”
I had a better time going through my divorce with my EX than with the AC. I find that so odd.
I think there is something in our situation that made us vulnerable to these types of men.
I keep concentrating on boundaries and thinking that my boundaries were twisted by my vulnerable state. My acceptance of what the AC dished out only compounded my negative beliefs in myself which had a knock on effect to my self esteem.
I’m so glad I’m NC, too – it’s a blessing – I’m not struggling so much with being rejected anymore because I’ve come to realise that what these AC’s rejected wasn’t based in reality – it was their twisted truth – their own lies – what they conditioned the situation to be in order to get what they wanted out of it.
I feel more empowered now than ever because I’ve taken the control away from him by going NC and am learning to give all that love to ME to heal and to move forward with my life and dreams. I have slips, like everyone, but I call this being human!
Leigh, thank you. Your comments and sharing help me more than I can describe. I relish the small baby steps to empowerment and look forward to healing me fully, and in a healthy manner.
I was just having a melancholy moment, feeling rejected by him, but then I caught myself, remembering the negative and embarassing comments and histrionic behavior, and realized that I am feeling rejected by a false image. A man that did not really exist. AHH I am slowly healing. He is such a charmer, so classic in all those toxic definitions of a man to run from. I guess maybe we needed this learning experience to awaken us to dating again. It was 20 years for me, so I am now fine tuning my radar again. Thankfully I am a quick learner I hope.
I would be happy to have a real loving relationship, full of respect and commitment but I do not need marriage again. Maybe when he spoke of marriage, as he did frequently, I was swept of my feet thinking wow! How could I be so lucky, and so soon? Red-flag….
NC rocks!- once you feel that you are the one in power, that NC lets you keep your dignity and NC gives you perspective, NC is the answer. I expected to slip especially over the holiday, esp being alone at times, but I am ok with being alone with myself. I like me and enjoy my time, love to read, watch a movie, eat crazy food for dinner and I do not want to date right now. Sex complicates things for us females. Although I do so much miss that, it was such an amazing intimate connection. He told me last week that he does not want to be alone, can’t be alone, wants someone there everyday, needs them around all the time. He has too much time on his hands. But lucky that he really does not have to work much. See he gets alimony from his ex wife. LOts of it, married into $.
I read that these A/C Narc.men are even often exceptional lovers, so much practice I guess. And they typically do not like to be alone. The sex was so much more than I ever had with my Ex. But not worth the lack of true intimacy in the end. I could feel the lack of true empathy and emotional depth after a time, and would even feel empty and moved to tears afterward, and not for good reasons.
I admit to feeling these crazy mixed emotions for months, about half the relationship. Why didn’t I listen to me?
My counselor said women are definitely more attuned to peoples emotions. I am looking forward to having the intimacy love and connection with a good man. I will definitely follow my gut and I will date when I am not so vulnerable. I am getting there.
@ Susan.
I have dated and it was easier to identify that the man wasn’t in a right place to date and was trying to rush things. I ended it politely and went NC with him to establish a healthy boundary because I knew he would continue to keep in touch. In the end he got the message and just recently we bumped into each other and it was all very civil. I know now I can date and listen to my gut and act. But I still want a break from relationships because I need to concentrate on myself for a while longer.
Ahhh yes, the sentimental moments we have when we recall the good moments with the AC’s. Those pockets of realities – our reality. At first it can be dangerous to have these sentimental moments, to remember the good sex, the great talks, the emotional and physical intimacy that was better than the marriages we had. It’s those memories that can contribute towards the feeling of loneliness. Those memories makes us want to go back in the hope that there is more of it – or that the situation has changed and they want permanency. But the stark reality is that these men can’t handle it or their emotions and they manage down our expectations over a period of time and that gets progressively worse. Even when they manage it all the way down to “friendship” status – it gets worse even at that stage because by then we feel it’s all wrong – we KNOW it’s all wrong.
Sex does complicate things for us women. And there are some men that feel this way, too. Men can suffer the same way we do with similar situations that we find ourselves in with these narcs/Ac’s.
I wouldn’t say the sex I had with my ex AC/narc was exceptional but I will say it was deeply intimate, personal and felt fantastic to be at his side. But like you, at the end of it the sex for me just wasn’t worth it because it compromised my emotions way too much.
I miss the intimacy, sure, but more than anything I miss the openness between us. The way he and I were able to discuss just about any subject without reservation. Even the most taboo of subjects was never out of bounds – and I loved that. I was attracted to that and I knew he was too.
Still, I’m in NC and all of this doesn’t stop me from being in NC because what I had with this man wasn’t enough – if it were and if it were right we would be together now.
I take the good from it (even though I remember the bad) and I know that it will come again, only next time it will be better. This goes for both of us, Susan. Hang in there!
Susan – your story sounds very similar to mine so I have read your posts with a lot of interest. I was also married, but left him, and then reconnected with my first love after a couple of decades apart. Of course, he was otherwise committed, and I didn’t want an affair so that was that. But, every few weeks he’d contact me, tell me he loved me, lament the timing etc etc. I’d say talk to me when you are free. Finally he was. But then he didn’t know what he wanted… he wanted to have”fun” he didn’t want another relationship. He was cagy about who left whom, so finally I called him and he ended up contradicting half of what he’d told me via email. And then he tried to put the blame on me by telling me that I think to much. Honestly, after years of this stupidity, my reaction after hanging up the phone was validation of my gut feeling all along, and then laughter. Like how could I have been so stupid and wrong about this person? Although during our contact I learned so pretty awful stuff about our past that I hadn’t ever figured out before, so it does tell you that some people never change. Then came the cognitive dissonance and hurt and anger. He did try to maintain contact but I shut him down completely and have been NC for almost a year and a half. This guy was the only one I’d ever really loved, wanted to marry have kids with etc. So, I have been grappling with the fact that the time for me to have children has passed. That was the most painful aspect of this. I gave up something really important for a figment of my imagination – someone with whom I would not even be friends.
Anyway, there is life after all this. After this whole mess, I met someone who was really the most remarkable person, whom I admired, respected and trusted and the feeling was mutual. He took such care of me and the experience taught me a lot about how a relationship should feel. It is over now for reasons beyond our control, but I only have love and respect for him. All that to say, is that they are out there and it is just a matter of reorienting yourself, I think. Anyway, I hope you will keep posting because I appreciate your outlook and relate to it!
“I think there is something in our situation that made us vulnerable to these types of men.”
I know what mine is. I didn’t get “validation” growing up. So I keep seeking it. I need to get over this.
Also, someone….. in an earlier post…. somewhere on this blog, wanted to know something to the effect of… “what was a ‘good’ guy…”
Well, all of us have had such negative experiences that we don’t have a CLUE what a good guy is like. I just made a list of what I “wanted” in a guy and it consisted of a series of “won’ts” as in:
A guy who WON’T do blah blah blah
A guy who WON’T do this
A guy who WON’T do that
A guy who WON’T do some other A/C thing
How sad is that?
Actually, I have had one GOOD boyfriend. Best one I ever had. Dated him when I was in my 30’s (I’m in my 50’s now…). I broke it off, but I had a good reason. But he was the best boyfriend I ever had.
@ Susan. Like others, I recognise a lot of the manipulative, contradictory and crazy-making behaviours you describe. Even though I saw them, I was still stuck to him as though by a magnet. I don’t know if I can ever forgive myself for the way I’ve degraded and humiliated myself by continuing with him. The anger makes me want to lash out — at him.
Wasted Love – I experienced similar feelings for the same reasons you describe. The anger you describe feels like it’ll eat you alive, but it is part of the healing/grieving process. Honestly though, it does get better. It has taken me a long time, but I feel sooooo much better than I did. I have no hurt or anger left, just kind of a “Really? Did that really happen?” – Much like it happened to another person. Hang in there, you are still in the process of sorting it all out. It does get better!
Thank you doneasdinner. Your words are a comfort. Same road, but you are further down it than me. I’m angry, then I’m crying, then I miss him. He said he was going to drive to work in the snow and I prayed he’d crash and die. I planned the dance I would do on his grave. Then I emailed him at work asking if he’d made it ok. Then I kicked myself for caring. Then I kicked myself for letting him see I cared. Then when he replied I sobbed with relief that he is OK. Then I remembered how I hate and despise him …. goodness, what rollercoaster. I thought this would be over by now, but I guess it takes as long as it takes.
@Wasted love:
“He said he was going to drive to work in the snow and I prayed he’d crash and die. I planned the dance I would do on his grave.”
OMG!
Try to think less about him and more about yourself. He’s just fine and dandy!
Forgive yourself, we are human we make mistakes. Yes, I am trying to take my own advice, because I feel the same way you do. I think there was a time I would have better been able to run from him, identify him and defend against him, but when I did meet him I had none of those skills actively working.
I still waver, even today in between all my posts, I waver between ache and strength. I did the humiliating crap. At the end it was to confirm the awful deceit I suspected, one weekend was to become the fall-back/booty call. Last week was to accept his call during the Thanksgiving holiday. But by last week the call actually confirmed much of what I really knew deep down.
I call it my twilight- zone-call to my friends. It was really surreal, but thats cause I suspect my perspective is changing.
I miss his attention even now as I type, but sometimes I think thats becauses I don’t like to fail and his rejection of me means I failed somehow. But I really only failed myself by ignoring all the A/C narc flags waving in my face.
I also know I made mistakes in my marriage and feel terrible that I hurt the father of my boys by not trying any longer for my marriage.I could not do it any longer. His emotional flatness and coldness killed me after 15 years. But I do know that he definitely is not an A/C narc and we are decent and caring to each other. My ex is just a different emoter(sp?) than me. I also know he has integrity and empathy. Something the man I am now recovering from, does not, and will never have.
I am angry that a man would take advantage of a vulnerable woman, but now I know a good man will NOT take advantage of a vulnerable woman. I was vulnerable separating from my husband and am even more so now recovering from the A/C. I have a few good men in my life, some, whom I suspect, would like to be more than friends, but are truly very respectful of me right now. I keep the boundaries clear.
I still miss the A/C kiss and touch and that stinks. And he’s fully getting it on with the OW, well one of the OW that he was lining up a few weeks ago. Ouch! Does he miss me, not a bit, Ouch, until he sees me. I am staying away from anywhere he may be, I am not strong enough yet, but would love to show him I am. See I know I still need NC. WE need NC and to take care of ourselves. Turn your anger to energy to take care of you. Its hard, I know, I want to humiliate him, hurt him, lash out but that only justifies his poor treatment of me, in his eyes. Have faith that karma will happen to them. I am holding to that, working on holding to that. Rage here. We get it.
@ Susan – reading your posts is like – twins separated at birth. My experience with growing up, birth order, perfectionist, marriage, guy who followed was the exact same. Although I am sorry that someone else has had a similar – almost identical experience, it makes me feel like less of an anomaly.
@done as dinner- helps me to know that I am not alone in this. Are you still trying to reconcile what and who he is/was? I find that even though I don’t want validation from him or debriefing, I sometimes ache that this new girl will be the one he changes with.
I know if he lied to her to be with her, cheated on her/me to be with her, stole her from another guy, to be with her, it does not bode well for their future. But I know him, I know what he is doing now. I know how he fast-forwards a relationship, sex, intensity, showers with attention and gifts, basically he said he will do what it takes to rope her in. He told me that too in the last conversation. Sounded like he was playing a game, explaining his strategy for winning.Gave me a chill up my spine.
I just believed in all he was doing with me, he was sooo good at it. I thought it was real then. Could it be real now?
I am still on the road to recovery, still need NC, still need to heal myself. Still need my weekly counseling, still need to accept my mistakes, still need to work on my boundaries.
I want to help others, to hold their hand and to prevent this in their life if possible. Hell I even ended up talking to the OW. She wanted to know why I would see him when he was with her. I laughed, because he wasn’t with her, he and I were still a couple dealing with challenges. But little did I know the extent of the challenges and little did she know the true nature of my relationship with him and what he was trying to do.
He tried to initially have me on weekends and her during the week. Hahaha. He even said that to me. GRoss!!!This after two years with him. This after just meeting her, seeing her a few days. He fast-forwarded her in a manner of days, with me still in the picture, unbeknownst to us. So now in 8 weeks they are hot and heavy and seriously committed. She accepted whatever explanation her gave for being with me a long weekend while supposedly trying to have a realtionship with her. I guess I am now the crazy ex GF. He and I have been done for 6 weeks now. Thankfully, but painfully, DONE.
I am not a fall-back girl do not want to be. I just want to heal. I just hate having those moments of self-doubt in what I went through with him. I blame myself sometimes, because he did tell me he did not want to raise my boys. But I never wanted him to, never expected him to, and he always also told me and showed me that we could make it work, that he loved me and wanted me and wanted to help me. The only times he actually said those words were in moments of his bizarre anger, to damp down my expectations, to hurt me.
He would whine with frustration and rage with insecurity when I showed independance. No, every man that sees me does not want me, but he always projected that. Asked me daily who hit on me at work, which Dr. got me in the file room? Daily, no exageration. Got to be that I just ignored the silly questions.
If I did speak of going out with friends, make an innocent observation of another man, or speak of a work experience, he always turned the conversation to one with sexual undertones and who was hitting on me. Truly bizarre. Why did I stay for so long???
Why am I even ruminating on what is going on now with him and her??? Anyone else go through these ups and downs??
Two particular things stand out to me in this comment:
1) If he did the same thing with you and it wasn’t real then, why do you think it’s so real with her? Now that you have so much evidence of who the real him is, does it really matter who and what he does now, because you now know the level of deceit he will engage in, the games he will play, and the fact that what you thought he was does not exist. It’s not even like you’re fighting reality and he’s trying to fight it with you. This guy is showing his ass so badly it’s unreal. Accept that he is what he is.
2) While you’re not looking for a replacement father, it is a red flag when someone makes comments to you about not wanting to raise your boys. You can’t just sweep them under the carpet and nor should he want you to. They come with you. How your relationship could work when there is this issue, is beyond me.
Your ups and downs are a natural part of the grieving process. Be sure to process the information. If you fight accepting the reality, you will continue to be trapped in denial and trying to work him out. The guy was a twit. All you’ve described him as doesn’t exactly make for an attractive partner. His attitude towards you being around guys and getting a tally on who hit on you is the behaviour of a controlling, disrespectful, pathetic man.
Dear NML, Thank you. You are right and I know all that you said to be true. I agree with you 100%. I really do. This grieving process is hard but necessary. I am accepting the reality of my situation, of me and of him, who his is. I do feel relief more and more, wish I felt it all the time though.
Getting there slowly, I think. The child issue is enough of a flag, I agree. I think it is the other more insideous pathetic manipulative behaviour I experienced that threw me off, still throw me. I do not want to resume with him, ever. But I dread seeing him again and I know I will bump into him sooner or later. I hope that dread will go away. When he does see me, I want to be that healthy, secure, content woman, who cares not a rats-ass about him.
Thank you Susan for this wonderful posting. Love, xxx
@ Susan – you ask “are you trying to reconcile what/who he is/was” Yes initially, I spent a lot of time on that – as you have mentioned before the cognitive dissonance set it and I couldn’t get my head around it. But there were a couple of things that no matter how my brain circled around I couldn’t deny. The first were all the things I had discovered about him that didn’t jive with the person I had always thought he was (thing from our past and in the present) the other thing was that I had gone NC (completely… mailed him all the mementos I’d kept over the years, his letters, etc.; eventually I deleted my FB and Twitter accounts completely) and other than an initial reaction to it, he never attempted to contact me, explain or apologize once. That told me a lot. It told me that in the end, the relationship simply wasn’t important enough for him to pursue. He didn’t want it. I also knew that contacting him would be like putting my hand back in the fire. While this was very painful, with time I came to accept the truth about him and the relationship we had had, and not the beautiful version in my head. The only way I came to that acceptance, was complete disengagement. It gave me the space and time to sort through it all. In my view the trouble with maintaining any type of contact is that you are constantly receiving more information that you have to sort through. This keeps it alive, and gives you something to interpret and pin your hopes on. NC eliminates all of that, so you are left with a finite amount of stuff to sort through. Once you have, its done. Honestly, I feel so much better now. But it took a long time. Hope that helps!
I too wanted a “debriefing” about our relationship but knew enough by then that all I would get would be more lies so I never brought it up. I have no doubt I saved myself more hurt and pain. A year later I know I made the right decision.
If they can lie while you’re in the relationship with them there’s no doubt they’ll lie now they’re out of it.
Same here – no debriefing. There was no point. Could not believe what he said when we were together and that’s not going to change ever. Definitely saved myself more pain. Besides he thinks he did no wrong and does not appear to have any remorse ever for anything. His opinion and that is all that matters to him. THAT should be a red flag – if at anytime during a relationship you observe no remorse for something you think there should be remorse for – even thou it has nothing to do with you – think again – if he does that to someone else – he will do it to you as well.
You are absolutely right!!!
I just broke off this last one for this very reason. The newly separated, “nice guy” emailer was implying I was a poor communicator because I told him I wasn’t comfy with email as there was too much left to interpretation. He the countered with, “well if u find email tone hard to interpret then why do you say things like such and such, trying to turn it around. I’m not proud I over responded trying to explain my truth, but I AM proud I didn’t wait for a reply and told him quote, I am not that woman lol..
This is the first one I nipped at the first few signs of discomfort,instead of it waiting to get really bad and get dumped or dissapeared on or stuck in a10 year marriage with a sociopath AC who would say in response to me saying “I feel XYZ” uh, “No you don’t” HA! CrAzY MaKiNg!!!
Ladies the more we practice boundaries while striving to be available ourselves and follow our instincts based on reality, the more the ‘high’ of assclown love which is like a junk food diet ,gets replaced with the nurturing sustenance of whole , organic nutrient dense self love. There is simply no comparison to which feels better.! It feels amazing and is carrying over to every aspect of my life. Vive le truth!!!
“Don’t travel from here to eternity trying to force someone to share your reality and own up to your version of the truth. If you both don’t share similar values, particularly when it comes to integrity and honesty, you’re never going to share an honest, healthy relationship anyway.”
This is particulary true when dealing with Narc’s. They are never at fault, they are perfect it is ALWAYS someone else’s fault and they will never own their behavior or their actions.
I am understanding the truth of the situation, especially after his OW contacted me and confirmed his game was the same with her. The lies upon lies upon more lies.
But I am just angry now. I went threw all the stages, even had a hard time believing it was true, now I am just completely angry at him. I can say honestly that I would love to knock his teeth out! He is such a jack ass and so concieted and full of himself. I am also angry at myself for falling for it, how am I supposed to tell if someone is lying to me again? I just feel like I did something wrong, I somehow made a huge mistake and misjudged him and our “relationship”. I am sure it will pass, I feel I need to go the gym and punch the bag for a long while. I have gone through months of uncovering and crying and now I am just plain angry that this person exists to hurt others and walks around like he is god’s gift to women. Of course I see that this could never of worked any other way, as apparently , all his relationships go down much the same. I gave up trying to understand the “why’s” and “how’s” of the Narc/AC or how they justify behaving so horribly. I am getting better with understanding that reality is this person has no values and this would of never of been a healthy relationship partner. There are certain people that like to hurt others, and I feel he is one of those. It just no okay with me. I can’t stand the idea that he liked hurting me, that he doesn’t care he lied, that he has no remorse. No, I can’t make him see or tell the truth of the situation, he will never own up to his deception, I just hate that he gets away with it and still plays the game and it still works for him (worked on many!)
I wonder when my anger will die down? it seemed to of just come up recently after I felt I was over it. I could run 10 miles today just off this energy alone!
Wow did we have the same experience?? It’s all so similar. My A/C was a horrendous husband, (divorced before I became involved with him.) Ended up receiving spousal support. Enough that he barely has to work for the rest of his life. He is late 40’s.
I would love to see him get his comeuppance in life, but as you said they really don’t feel the guilt and effects of their actions. They will continue doing their crap and presenting their false fronts because there is an endless supply of willing women who dream of what they initially offer. Remember they are extrememly adept at reading us, identifying us and honing in on our vulnerabilites.
I must say not all A/C Narc are men, but majority are men. NOt all men are A/C Narc thankfully.
Possibly your anger is there because you are a good, kind, truly caring individual. I hope it has died down to allow you to heal and move on. I admit though that I will feel I will probably always carry a small wound where he tore at my heart.
Their effects on us are so insideous and evil. I think maybe a banner plane announcing his twisted manipulations and deceptions, flying over our town may just get him. He does so care what people think of him. He often commented that he was not that bad, he changed. He was selling himself, always.
Good, true, caring people, even if we’ve made mistakes, don’t need to sell ourselves. We live that way,it shows. You are a good true caring individual. It doesn’t jive with these men. And their crap does and will continue to work, I hate it too!
Susan – You write “I would love to see him get his comeuppance in life, but as you said they really don’t feel the guilt and effects of their actions.” I think they do though… because as you have pointed out they want to be seen as these great guys but when you go NC they know deep down what they have done. Ultimately good women leave these men, they are always bouncing from one woman to the next, usually the woman tires of it and drops them or it because a drama filled nightmare that neither can take. I suspect these guys end up alone (especially when their looks go with age and younger men are available). I suspect that when this happens, they will have a lot of time on their hands to think about how their lives panned out. There is a film, Solitary Man, that addresses this. It really helped me to see how a lot of these guys must end up. In my case, the guy I’d had the drama with has been left by every woman he has loved, and none want further contact with him. That must leave an impression on him even if it isn’t apparent to others.
@ done as dinner, and everyone else
This blog is my new obsession. It is replacing those crazy obsessive memories and pain and helping me move forward with a healthier perspective. I can’t wait to read everyone’s posts.
You know, I do agree with what you said about these men and the women that leave them. I do think they will be alone and my particular A/C Narc., even used to say that he will be alone in the end. Funny how I dismissed that as a red flag, he even was able to admit he wasn’t a ‘good guy’. He is incapable of feeling true empathy, I have seen that, experienced it and was dismayed by it. He lied all the time, about nonsense, even in front of me. So if they do that in front of you to others, you know they will do it to you too.
Now its not so shocking to process that memory.I blocked so much before. He is so dismissive of anyone who is truly in need, even his own daughter is treated like a princess because it makes daddy look good. He is the “cool” daddy, who doesn’t work, cheats on women and lives a life others are jealous of. ( so he always told his daughter).But when she really needed him, he was angered because he had to choose between fishing plans and her situation. To me, to any parent, there is no choice ,you automatically choose the kids. You just do what is right, maybe with disappointment that your plans were altered , but true anger??? ( and he fished all summer by the way).He is all talk and no action. He truly has not lived a life for teaching her true goodness, kindness and integrity.
I just wanted him to be the man I thought he was in the beginning, my Knight….. I hoped, but deep down I knew different. He started to tell me how he emotionally abused his exwife for years, then he got physical at the end and that pushed her over the edge. Unfortunately she tolerated YEARS of infideltiy leading up to this. The stories came out after I was very involved, although one very good mutual male friend took me aside after awhile and tried to set me straight. I did not want to believe. I also remember thinking I will be the one that he is different with. Now why the hell would I have wanted to even risk that? But I did for two years. Those years were not without pleasure for me, just too dramatic, too insecure, too full of deception and too immature. I admit now that I often felt that I was dealing with a boy, not a grown man in his late 40’s.
I know now its because of where I was/am in my life, scary being a single mom with two young boys, and truthfully I don’t want to be alone, and financially strapped. Plus he made me feel so magnificent….. Well I know I have not lost my sense of self, I know that I am smart, healthy, loving, sexy, and caring, but not perfect. I am a classic perfectionist, first child, good in school, good “kid” growing up. I am learning finally that its ok to not be so hard on myself.
The A/C did not destroy my sense of self. He was working on it though. Attack me as a bad mom, tell me I am skinny (see the opposite hurts too), tell me I am needy, and then tell me/show me you think the complete opposite??? He showed his true evil uncaring immature self. Hell I am damm hot for my age, I love being a mom, my boys are doing well and I do not need a man for happiness! I just like men.
I never introduced him to my boys, they have a good father who is very involved with them. Some day they will probably meet a new man in my life, but I am sooo glad that I keep that boundary high. I need to be sure, very sure about ‘the man’, about my relationship with ‘the man’ before my children will meet ‘the man.’ Then he and I can approach that issue as mature loving responsible adults.
I admit I still feel lonely, and it aches to know he is already with someone else, but he needs his narc. supply. I felt lonely in the relationship too, but now I dont have the anxiety I had for almost the entire last year. I am OK with my aloneness though, I have many other things to keep me positively occupied. I do feel relief that he’s gone, sadness at the loss of potential I thought I saw in him and us, but at peace too, knowing I am a good decent well-liked, respected, loving women. I am so amazed at the friends who have come to me with true caring and patience in their hearts for me. Even my co-workers, who I hid much from, sensed my turmoil and have all ’embraced’ me without prying, just embraced and make me smile. I am very private and only few close friends knew the situation
Funny even my closest friends did not like him…. Yes that does leave an impression on him, even if it isn’t apparent to others. I made mistakes, and I know I’ve made him sound like a really bad man ( he is but..) but he did show me kindness, he was very generous to me and he loved me to the best of HIS ability. I don’t believe he would have ever physically abused me, but he did cheat on me, more than once, as I found at at the end, and the emotional manipulation was starting in full swing.
I loved a flawed individual, a non-existent entity. I don’t really want him to suffer, like from a bad disease, just some heart ache would be nice….. kidding. and speaking to all women, here, if he is with you and her and her, and if he is not wearing a condom, and refuses to because he does not like it! Hello, get his clearance from the dept of health first. HIV, Hepatitis, Syphilis, and the other more obvious STD’s are making a resurgence in us women in our 40’s. Now that’s a terrible life sentence for us to deal with, much worse than the heart ache they have given us.
My AC’s sister told me “that he does not know a good thing when he has it and that he will end up alone”. I find that good info as she has watched “his dance” much longer than I have.
His best friend was seperated from his wife and one day my AC said to me “He’s (the BF) is jealous of my life style” all smug. Guess what? His BF went back to his wife and is working on things. Guess he wasn’t as jealous as the AC thought. LOL!! His BF also just loves me, and his other friend said “I was a keeper”. Just keep that in your thoughts – the people who have been around them for awhile know EXACTLY how they are and how they have treated others!
You know how you can review hotels, RV parks, etc online? I just wish there was a “BadBoyfriend.com” to review boyfriends! But then again, someone would start “BadGirlfriend.com” to retaliate! Oh well…….
Jubilee, your email could have been written by me. I feel right now EXACTLY how you feel, most especially “angry at myself for falling for it, how am I supposed to tell if someone is lying to me again? I just feel like I did something wrong, I somehow made a huge mistake and misjudged him and our “relationship”… I have gone through months of uncovering and crying and now I am just plain angry that this person exists to hurt others and walks around like he is god’s gift to women.”
“I just hate that he gets away with it and still plays the game and it still works for him (worked on many!)”
Yes, yes and yes again. I want to do something to stop him from driving another sister crazy— and another and another. But people tell me that no matter what these men do to us, it is not appropriate to try to protect other women from them.
wastedlove,
we need to start by protecting ourselves. We would look pretty silly warning other women off him when we are still ‘walking out’ with him ourselves (not saying that you are, but last you posted you were going out somewhere with him – I responded to that post you made, btw – now buried in the other blog), and it would be futile to warn other women who are not asking to be warned, it’s not for you to take up the crusade to save the rest from themselves, they wouldn’t listen (they will be too busy having the pants charmed off them!) and they would only think you were jealous and bitter. Forget about helping other women and help yourself.
Take care F
I have to beg to disagree. I have a very strong sense of sisterhood. I see women as sisters not as rivals for men. If we pulled together more and shared information on men, either as individuals or collectively, fewer women would get hurt.
I don’t think it should stop us if the woman we warn thinks we are jealous or bitter. I don’t think that is any reason not to warn her at all. Your neighbour might think you are joking if you tell her that her house is on fire, but if it IS on fire, you must tell her. If she chooses to stay and burn, well, that is her choice.
If we warn his new woman and she says “go away, I don’t believe you”, we will have sown a tiny seed of doubt in her mind, then when he starts to be EUM or AC with her, she’ll be waiting for the signs, and can get out sooner than we did.
If there was a website which listed men by name and their exes “reviews” of them, I would pay money to subscribe to it.
There is… Note I don’t support the site I’m just passing on the information.
wastedlove
“I have a very strong sense of sisterhood. I see women as sisters not as rivals for men. If we pulled together more and shared information on men, either as individuals or collectively, fewer women would get hurt.”
Why don’t you get the “sisterhood” of PC’s harem together then and share information about him and help eachother? (Instead of trying to out-do these other “sisters” – and his ex-wife – by offering him everything that you imagine they have failed to provide for him so as to win his love over them.)
We are lucky enough to have an excellent space to share and get help – Baggage Reclaim and NML. Tell your friends about it.
All the ‘naming and shaming’ places looks more to most women like ‘naming and blaming’. As in the general message of this blog. We can all bang on about who contributed what and who did what, but he can (and does) tell more lies to more women about his relationships than you can tell truths about yours – all the naming and blaming and lies and who did what and why and to whom just perpetuates the mess we are in – it doesn’t clean it up – and all other people see when you start naming and blaming is a big mess, and you making it.
PC may be a frog, but you are not a victim in this relationship with the PC – you are a participant. When you get that, you’ve got it.
My anger simmered on low all night. I did take myself to the gym and I highly recommend it ladies! It feels great to get out all of that hostile energy.
I think it will take time to leave it behind me.
I agree very much that it is not our jobs to punish these men or protect anyone from them. It is also not our job to ‘help’ them see their faults or help them understand what they did , the truth of it. He was very good at reading me, almost too good at reading me, he would notice small inflections in my voice. He picked up on things that I was feeling like a psychic. He tried many hooks with me in the beginning starting with money, when I would refuse gifts or expensive dinners he would switch it up. I think it threw him off a bit that I didn’t want to be “bought” and I told him that anyone can do those things, those are right out of the standard play book. I didn’t want those things. I wanted a real connection, just one on one. I didn’t want to be impressed by material things. I wanted to be impressed with him – as a human being. I wanted character, strength, protection, caring, intimacy, fun and connection. However apparently I was not good at reading him and I didn’t even know who he was until he was long time gone. That is why I wonder now how my judgement became so clouded, that I didn’t see him and recognize his act – it mostly certainly is an act.
I am strong and wiser to the Narc’s game and will surely (hopefully) be able to recognize the red flags I ignored early on in the relationship if I ever meet another one. I felt a shared bond with his (2nd) OW and I know that she was in a place of true pain, as she also loved this man. I could see that he had badly hurt his wife, multiple times. I can’t imagine being married to him, and how awful it must be. His behavior is the same – when confronted with the truth such as a question ” Who is___?” (OW name) He would shut down, refuse to speak, dissapear and never reappear. He leaves everyone this way, even his wife. Can you imagine being married to someone that cheats on you, then refuses to communicate once you find out!? He runs from being accountable. He terms everyone crazy that says anything bad about him. He starts the demeaning/devaluing at the first sign that the woman is no longer completely enamored with him.
He is very good at getting women to fall for him. He is charming. He also has a very innocent appearance, has an almost childlike features, you would never think this man would be capable of going to such lenghts to get into a relationship and then bouce out of them so easily. But I trusted too easily, gave my heart too quickly.
Early on after meeting him I told him that I hated cheating, told him of my past with my father cheating on my mother, that I despised cheating behavior and lying. He just nodded his head, while lying to me about being married! I was in deep from day one but did not realize what I was in for. My anger at him is a normal response to betrayal of trust. He did not value me, he just used me. He may never get what he deserves he may continue his game until the day he dies. I have to recover fully, I want my heart to be whole again I want to be a loving and faithful partner, I don’t want to hold on to this bitterness and anger .
Btw – NML I love the new BRC icon!! so cute!
Hmmm….
I wish someone had warned me about my AC, since he has a pattern of treating women just like he treated me – i.e., blowing really hot for about 5 minutes and then dropping her and treating her terribly. I was new in another country, and in a new group of older friends, and I remember some of those friends giving me just blank looks when I told them how much I liked him and expressed real excitement about our relationship, but they never said anything. I would have appreciated even a “okay but be careful with him…” or something along those lines.
Snowboard,
Interesting! I don’t totally disagree with you. I too wish that someone, somewhere, had given me a ‘heads up’ on my EUM. I am though very sceptical that I would have taken much heed of his ex-girlfriend offering me unsolicited advice! And let’s face it, these guys are waving their red flags about in our faces and we didn’t listen (I speak for myself!!), so who are we going to listen to, really?
I have an aunt who was ‘getting engaged’ to a guy. She must have had her own reservations because she traced his ex-wife’s phone number, called her up and asked her more about why the marriage had ended. What she heard made her call off the relationship. Of course he had lied about stuff! Quelle surprise!
So I’d more say that if you want the information, it’s best if you take action yourself to get it.
But I do see what you mean… but we are very good at attaching ulterior motives for bad stuff people tell us about our ‘boyfriends’… and I bet first thing we’d do is tell the boyfriend what was said and he’d come up with some crap about how ‘she doesn’t like me because… blah… blah ..’ and we’d believe him! And people know we’d go and tell him what was said, so they are not saying it.
Maybe the looks we get are our cue to ask? Though often we read these signs only with hindsight.
Continue reading these posts, you are definitely not alone here. I have found other very reputable sites that actually are helping me to learn about me, my inability to run for cover, my inability to see the flags waving furiously in my face.
Being a women, being loving and caring and being in a vulnerable place in your life, being a mother, being childless, being you, a person with a heart, sets you up for this lesson. No one wants to believe badness really exists, but it does to some degrees far worse than we could ever really imagine.
We have a tendency to think others think like us, that’s kind of what NML is saying in her post. It is our way of attempting to understand and validate a situation. Usually in relationships we can step back and see the other side, many times. But these people are a force all their own, they just don’t function as most people do. It is an innate personality problem. So we try harder to see their point of view, giving validity to their feelings. But what are their feelings?? Do they match their actions, are they a man of their word, do they live a lie, do we have a negative gut reaction time and time again?
We just needed a wake up call. Time to listen and learn again. Nothing worth while comes easy….. Hang in there. I am right there with you. One step at a time and its hard sometimes.
Great post! I’m not keen to call my former partner an AC – I don’t want to get into name calling – but your experiences resonate with me. I wish I’d found your blog 2 years ago!!! Thanks for all the generous help you extend to women, Natalie 🙂
Re former BFs or husbands calling you crazy, I’ve seen this many times over the years, both with me and with other people. It’s their way of not looking at themselves. I think that sometimes it’s easier for women to look at their ‘stuff’. I know some women can have big egos but traditionally men have learned not to ‘lose face’ or admit they’re wrong.
My ex told everyone, including people who knew me better than him, that I was “crazy” after we broke up. It hurt. It bugged me for a while.
In my current relationship, I try to live by “Would you rather be right or happy?” Because honestly, all of us have different perceptions. And you are right, when we’re able to know our own truth, our own weaknesses and mistakes and can own up to them, it really doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks.
I’m working on it!
This blog is amazing. It has opened up my eyes to so many issues which I had never dealt with. So first of all, thank you.
Everything that you’ve said here resonates with me. My ex boyfriend broke up with me a few weeks ago — well, I kind of had to make him say it because he would not look at me and wouldn’t even talk to me but his ‘reasons’ were that: 1) I needed someone more mature, 2) that apparently I wanted/needed to settle down in the next 3-4 years. In hindsight, his first reason IS true after realizing what an assclown he is for the way he treated me post-breakup but 2) was never true. I am afraid of commitment because I’m afraid to make a mistake I’ll have to live with for the rest of my life and moreover, I’ve never had an age/time/date limit to settling down. I know he’s gone to tell his friends how insecure I am and how he had all the power in the relationship, now looking to ‘meet some b*tches’. And up until today, I have been angry at the way I’ve been mistreated without having any means to clarify myself to his family/mutual friends. I guess this is what you mean by seeking validation.
You’re right. The truth shall prevail whether we see it prevailing or not and although I’m still struggling with the anger and hurt he caused me, your blog has given me fantastic advice on how to love myself and how to become a smarter, more careful woman in relationships.
Omg Nat, mine pulled the same crap…only I had moved back to New York apparently.
My AC is very popular and well liked. Behind closed doors he was a monster to me. He was a fraud. He was a coward who had to be liked by others, no matter what and would crap all over me to in his rush to look good to them. He managed to make me look like the crazy one. He would tell his friends about me freaking out but he didn’t tell them why, that he had just broke in my doors, smashed things in my house, and verbally cut me to a sobbing mess, ROUTINELY. I hated it that he could behave like that to me and then come out smelling like a rose to everyone. I am not perfect but I am not crazy. I decided to completely leave behind everyone associated with him. I resented them. It hurt that no one could see through him. I am a good person, and genuine and get looked at now like something is wrong with me. He is more popular than ever. It burned me up for a while, but have made more sense of it over the months. He is very superficial and the fun, life of the party happy guy. Who wouldn’t like him. As long as the relationship stayed mostly shallow and you never needed him to be real and available in a real way, like to count on him. then he was charming as hell and a good “friend”. He hated me for calling him on his shit and expecting more than that. I suspect that there are a few people who know the ugliness inside him like I do, but are probably long gone. It still smarts every now when I run into people who we knew and they pretend they didn’t see me or barely mutter a “hi” but won’t even look at me. I can’t imagine what he has said and what they think, but he had to save face at all cost. That was his final jab. I wrote all of them off the day I wrote him off.
omg did we date the same guy?? except mine wasn’t violent that way – just s smarmy gross womanizer. but other than that that’s exactly what i went through! heh. if i heard one more guy tell me “oh he’s such a funny friendly guy” and so likable… he was such the social life of the party. but OH BOY don’t ask his former girls for the truth! he never said too much bad stuff about them except for one, but for some reason apparently i was one he slammed the most to a g/f of his. i never understood that either. he told me once i made him nervous and uncomfortable b/c i stood up to him and met him one the same level and didn’t back down. lots of good that did me. still got screwed.
i wrote all his acquaintances off… though we’re all in the same industry… figured i just need to stand in my truth… i can’t scream and yell at him and them and convince them of anything.. nor do i want to. they were never true friends.
My ex EUM was actually always totally honest! He always spoke highly of all his former fallback girls and painted himself as the bastard, the useless one, ‘don’t get attached to me’, ‘this isn’t going anywhere’, blah, blah. Always telling me I was too good for him.
I did want the debrief at first – I wanted answers. I did write a furious, hate-filled email, but I never sent it. I’m at the point now where I have my reality and I’m pretty sure it fits with his (he was a useless manchild who couldn’t give me, or any other woman, what they wanted). I am actually grateful for him and for this site. Between the two I now know exactly where I went wrong, I can spot ACs and EUMs a mile off (god, aren’t there a lot of them out there??!!) and am finally at peace with the whole situation. I can even spot when I start validation-seeking and can talk myself out of it. Yay for me!
Love Elle’s floating on the river analogy. Sometimes shit happens, things don’t work, just float away and let it be. Who knows what you’ll find further down river. 🙂
@Minky: So easy to spot the signs now you know. It’s comical! Went on a date with a guy last week – we got along very well, we laughed, we discussed various common interests, and enjoyed a beautiful location, nice body language and affection, but, as we know from Natalie, they’re not the things to look for. What we’re looking for is a certain steady openness and, as this site emphasizes over and over: relationship readiness and similar relationship values.
The red flags were him saying that he didn’t want me to have any grand expectations of him as far as a relationship goes (another guy said the exact thing to me a month ago), that he would be in a serious relationship once his life was sorted (aiming for perfection – never good!) and, finally, (and this was the same as another recent date) he ended the night by being really grabby and telling me how sexy I was, which sounds flattering, but, I assure you, it’s a way of making you less human and putting you in the category of ‘couldn’t take her to Mum’, especially when it’s out of keeping with the rest of the night. It’s textbook. Oh, and just to tie it all up, have only received a bare text since about his hangover management skills. No reply from me. NEXT! ; )
(Glad to see my river imagery has resonated- it’s a bit grandiose, but I genuinely thought of it within a few days of the AC dumping me. It’s the first time in my life when I really decided that I would trust in life moving me along to something better and healthier. My natural instinct would be to fight or be ‘loyal’, but this time it seemed like the most natural thing, moving on. Of course, have had some twitchy, splash-about moments, even some attempts to swim back upstream – to keep the metaphor going – but mostly just lying back and seeing where this whole thing takes me…Weeeeee…..)
Love your metaphor and this new expanded version!
Haha – yes very easy to spot the signs now. Feel like I’ve been given some sort of AC/ EUM detector gadget! It’s brilliant! That’s all I see at the moment though. I was getting involved with a really decent bloke recently, all seemed to be going well, but I have realised that he’s only 2 months out of a serious relationship and therefore no good to me, despite being totally lovely. Ah well. Such is life.
I feel, at the moment, like all I can see are EUMs! Either because of circumstance, or because of their own nature. Nat says there are plenty of good guys out there, but if there are I haven’t seen them! All I can see are men who don’t want to commit because they don’t have to. There are too many options – especially if you live in a big city – people are always wondering if they’re missing out. There’s always somewhere new to go, someone new to meet. Bad attitude to have, I know. Just feeling extremely cynical at the moment.
I’m still happy though. I’ve got plenty going on and feel comfortable just being on my own. I don’t need anybody – I’m just despairing of men in general and visualising a life of solitude because no one seems to measure up at the moment.
Maybe i’m having a panicky splashy moment 🙂
Elle
You’re very funny! Love your visual imagery. Yep, let it go and move on.
My ex EUM was honest too. Our last conversation after two years together was him telling me that he can’t keep hurting me by being wishy washy (his words!) and that while sometimes he thinks he really loves me he then gets so much anxiety at the thought of committing to me (living together /marriage) that he knows he isn’t ready. After finding this site, I now realize that he doesn’t feel real love for me – if he did, he would have anxiety at the opposite end if any – at the thought of not having me in his life. He once told me that he doesn’t think he’d ever be totally satisfied with what he had and will always wonder if something out there is better. Afterwards he told me he had never been so honest with someone else. I took it as a sign of closeness to me when really I should have run! I look back at our two years together and think back to many conversations like this where he was telling me the truth…I just never knew someone like him before, hadn’t found this blog, and didn’t completely know what to make of it but also didn’t want to admit deep down what it meant. When he would blow hot and tell me he didn’t want to break up, did love me, etc I listened to those words instead and put aside what he was so clearly telling me that I didn’t want to hear or address.
My learning is that while some of these guys do lie, others do tell the truth and it is up to us to really listen. It’s easy to just hear what you want to hear when they are blowing hot and then discount or ignore what they say when it’s not what you want to hear.
“He once told me that he doesn’t think he’d ever be totally satisfied with what he had and will always wonder if something out there is better.”
If this is true, and it most likely is, as I’ve heard many people allude to this same feeling in all different aspects – partners, career, financial…it is an extremely sad way to live and the people that are always reaching, reaching, reaching are never content and they will always be in a constant state of unrest. While it’s important to go after what is best for us, it is silly to continuously question exactly what we have beacuse we’re fearful of missing out on something more, more, more. Talk about never living in the moment.
This makes room for a half-life and it’s good you are no longer sucked into it.
i blame this partly on the age of computerized everything… internet, social networking, online dating, text, chat, facebook, twitter…. self professed to “make socializing better” when in fact, it’s just an illusion. people are more self-involved than ever. it is just a pretense of “connectivity” and the reality is there is more disconnect than ever and it’s led to this false idea of “look at all these fish in the sea… there must be some bettter ones out there for me”… as if more availability and options must mean you have to try them all on for size. people can pretend to be anything now and think they can get away with anything… even down to believing their own fabricated internet personas. it struck when i went to dinner with people and every single one of them ultimately pulled out their smart phones and started checking whatever.. emails.. …texts… etc. or the ex who posted several fake online profiles claiming to be a well established producer/director/ photographer. so much for real-world socializing. just because there are MORE options doesn’t mean there are “better options” and that the grass is greener on the other side. but most people don’t see it that way.
WELL SAID dslchick.
I am trying internet dating, I agree 100% with all you say. It’s really, REALLY hard work but Natalie’s blog, this site, has even helped me with separating the wheat from the chaff! I’m a different person now, even from only a few weeks ago, I am hard, demanding, not at all tentative about my boundaries. Wow. I’m amazed, I am getting more respect from the guys I am interacting with, and I don’t care about the ones that drop out because, clearly, they were not respectful enough to deserve me, anyway!
Totally agree!! I prefer intimacy – talking on phone, seeing friends, having dinner – face to face contact please!!
My ex left while i was at work. then left the state without telling me. I turned to his friends and his brother for support. After they spent time with him over the holiday neither the brother or the friend will speak to me at all. I don’t understand why. I don’t even know why the relationship ended. all he told me was he needed to find himself.
so what is he telling all these other people about me? i’m not a bad person but i feel like crap. I just don’t understand.
Let him find himself, it isn’t your fault. He just didn’t have the balls and respect for you, to talk like an adult to you. I am sorry that you are in this position, he is behaving very cowardly by not dealing with you. I am not saying that he does not care, I do not know, but difficult situations do arise and we must face them.
This is not a positive light he cast on himself. Do not chase after him or call him, give him space, show him your confidence and worth with your solid strong actions. Even if you don’t feel strong he will get that message.
I wish you luck, this may be ok, after he grows some balls, it may not be ok. You are worth more and deserve more respect. Keep reading, go back in this site and try No Contact. You will be Ok.
He is now lying to everyone about what happened. I supported him the whole time he lived with me. He didn’t work. he was always suppose to start a job but he had to wait for this or that. I bought it. Well after he left i asked for some money back on things that he was suppose to pay me back even if we would have stayed together. Well now his family is saying that ‘its not his fault’ he shouldn’t have to pay me anything and he is the victim. I don’t understand that. I did EVERYTHING for him. We NEVER fought. He left me while i was at work because two days before i told him i needed him to start a job and pitch in money because i was broke. So how am i the bad guy here? I don’t understand.
Wow, are you my twin from half way round the globe?? I had a relationship that ended terribly in a divorce about 6 years ago, and of course we have to keep in touch and see eachother regularly because we have a child together. His constant need to shove his views on what happened all that time ago never ceases. He was aggressive, abusive and hateful, obviously not in the beginning because I did marry him and give birth to his daughter. But did I really feed the flames like he was saying? Was it my fault that he got so angry he had to vent through his fists? I wandered this for a very long time. And the answer is no. I don’t need his validation of events.. I know in my own emotional past what happened to me and I’ve also come to terms with what I have done. Do I need to push my truths off onto him? No, because he will never accept them. Thanks so much for sharing, Doll. Life’s rough : )
Uggh! This whole thing screams abuse! Especially if the guy continually tells you you said something you didn’t, to the extent where you start believing it.
Robin,
I was thinking the same thing as you.
There is a difference between two different realities and someone gaslighting everyone.
The outcome is still the same. Nat is pointing out that we don’t need to give their behaviour any weight. Their distorted reality is still theirs to believe.
I mentioned above how my EUM gave me sort of a validation and to me that is as good as it gets. He accepted my reality and I have to accept his. My accepting will take some time but these posts do help in that department.
I have had ex’s that don’t accept my realitiy of things at all so I know how that feels and I have been upset how nonchalant my EUM has been about realitiy. I have told him in the past how he distorts things and he has agreed. It think just to shut me up though.
oh well it never worked, I didn’t shut up and each attempt he tried to be my friend again I through it back as the explanation as to why I won’t. So I am not bombarding him with this is how you are I am telling him this is simply why I won’t be friends with you anymore.
yeah its tough when you find out about what someone has been saying about you behind your back. for me it was both about my personality, my character, and the relationship status.
i should have listened when he proudly boasted that his friends compared him to Hank on Californication. i didn’t know the show then, saw it later…. made me nauseous. there was little exaggeration :/
this sex addict “ex” (though that’s putting him on too high of a rank really) he told the girl he was with after me and before he got back with me AFTER he dumped her… all this stuff about me and how i was “crazy”. told her he was done with me when he was still coming to see me a week later… she emailed me much later after they were over and told me. turns out she walked away from HIM not the other way around… another lie. i didn’t know any of this at the time.
granted, there was anger and bitterness in her, but even if some things were exaggerated, knowing who and what he was later, i believe 80% of what she said was accurate. (i was the “bread” in that relationship sandwich apparently but i didn’t find out til i let him back into my life a second time….)
he had told her i was “totally” crazy, that when he was at my house he didn’t “sleep” with me, nor would he want to because i was “so crazy”… he liked to play with semantics – oh sure we didn’t have intercourse, but we did EVERYTHING but…. and “sleeping over” at my house was just icing.
told her he was “just trying me on for size” that his dalliance with me “didn’t mean anything”…. in the meantime he was telling ME how he was so sick of her and that relationship and wanted out and he only felt alive with me and felt right with me. they were done within a week but there were so many lies.
he lied to both of us, basically…. but i was too naive to know that at the time….i learned the full truth of who he was and the pathological liar he was 4 months later from emails to other girls he dated while he was with her and with me…. and i still struggled with the reality b/c i couldn’t believe someone could out and out blatantly lie like that. same guy who called visiting me a “photography trip” to another girl. it was hard to digest.
but calling me “crazy” was his favorite thing apparently. it hurt – and he knew it too – to know that he told that to not just her… but also to mutual aquaintances who were mostly his friends, so they’d believe him…. but what could i do? i cut him off NC…
yet.. meanwhile he’s never stopped trying to reach out over this last year – im the one who’s gone silent. and im the crazy one?? he’s the one who keeps trying to contact when i haven’t emailed/texted/spoken to him since december of last year. i don’t even have his number anymore. and now even his emails go to “marked as spam” -heh.
also he even told m that he complained to his friends about me that he felt i was “too close to my parents” and he thought it was weird ( he has no relationship with his family) and he felt like he was dating a teenager while he was with me because of it.
ouch. that hurt.
also my ex of 7 years recently wrote to me as well…in nutshell downplayign the verbal and physical abuse that happpened now that hes “happily married with baby”….. i straightened him out alright. told him he needs to move on, i already did, and to stop patronizing me or changing the story or avoiding responsibility for what he had done… i think it shut him up.
the damage these people do to your self esteem is massive tho. i took many things to hear tand personally and still am recovering from those blows to my self esteem that came from most of my ex’s.
@DSLchick
I think “she’s crazy” is one of their standard expressions that they have on a cue card that says “to be used in cases where she calls you on your crap, won’t put up with your behaviour/lies/manipulation anymore” So they throw out the “she’s crazy” card like a big smoke bomb that’ll blind everyone to what is really going on. I mean “trying you on for size” What the hell? For that woman that should tell her everything she needs to know. Um, excuse me, I’m not a pair of GAP jeans. So they pull the crazy card, more to fool themselves. But someone pulled that one on me, and had often said “women are crazy” and I thought… well what is the common denominator there?
heey ladies!
We’ve the boy-drama that my girfriend had and she’s doing very good now! Thank you ladies for all the advice!:)
But yes, now Ana is “in trouble” again…:)
Anyway, I started seeing this guy from our group of friends, and I’ve known him for a while, so he’s no stranger. Right now going out on dates, just the two of us, but he doesn’t want our friends to know about us dating. And when we’re all together hanging out he’s acting like we are “just friends”, nothing more… He says he wants to keep it this way until we figure out if we’re right for each other.
I don’t know, right now I think I see a Mr. Unavaliable in every guy, and I don’t want to scare away a decent guy, so please help me with this… is this a majure red flag, a sign for me to end this or am I freaking out here???
thanks ladies 🙂
xoxo
Good question!! Hmm… well it’s definitely not a GOOD sign. Two weeks into our relationship, my AC made clear that he didn’t want me talking about our relationship w/anyone. And I was faithful to this, even after he dropped me, started treated me like dirt, tried to get me to move out of the town, and refused to talk to me. Only months later when I finally started talking to mutual friends about the situation did I learn how he has a huge pattern of treating girls the way he treated me, that’s he’s kind of insane, etc.
I dont know the situation with your guy, but it’s definitely, if not a red flag, a yellow flag. If a month or so goes by and he still doesn’t want people to know, I think you can clearly say “He’s just not that into you.” When you are really excited about someone, you usually can’t contain yourself and start talking to your friends about it.
Wishing you the best!!! **
red flag alert!! what’s he hiding from? If youre friends already isn’ t that a good place to start from.. flag is flying here.
This is not a decent guy, and this is a major red flag. A man should be proud of who he is dating, not try to cover it up.
Are you sleeping with him.
Well Ana, I made it a rule for myself that I wouldn’t date men who kept me on the down low. You’re really sitting a test, after all if you remain a secret, you’ll wonder what you need to do to win him over or what you did wrong. I’ll put it this way – you’ll never know if you’re right for each other if your relationship doesn’t exist under the premise of being out in the open. Ultimately it’s you who has to gauge your comfort level here. If you’re OK with it, not because you have a dodgy basis for it but because you trust this person and you yourself are not ready to say to your friends that you’re together, then rock on. If you’re not comfortable, acknowledge your feelings.
As an aside, if you’re going to pretend you’re not together, you can’t exactly get upset with him when he treats you like you’re just friends.
I would also add that if you guys being on the quiet isn’t about him finding out if you are right for him and is instead about giving you guys some breathing space before your friends are all up in your business that’s another thing. I would suggest that if you are going to keep it quiet, it’s because you’re waiting to decide if you’re boyfriend and girlfriend as opposed to just dating. If you are already boyfriend and girlfriend, then his suggestion is not acceptable.
hey Natalie and ladies!
well, I’m not ok with it … sounds too familiar to me, been there, done that, it sure didn’t end well. I’m 99% sure I’m going to end it tonight.
I’ve known him for a while and he’s a great friend to everybody, a funny, smart, good looking guy, but i forgot to mention, that he does have a history of hiding his girls… when we for example met him on the street with a girl, he pretended he doesn’t know us… and when he was asked about this, he said it’s not our bussiness:)
Doesn’t sound good I know… Anyway, we’ve been going out for about a month and a half, 2 months, and I’ve been ok with it, cause he’s a friend, not just some guy I met yesterday, but my wilde guess is that he’s not a boyfriend material;). One of his friends who saw us in the movies together, said to me straight in the face, don’t date him (he was drunk, but still).
thank a lot, you guys here keep me sane:))) I’m 26 now, but only now i clearly see that i always had baaaad love habits, you name it, i dated it:): a poker pro (possibly an addict), the biggest man-whore in the city, a drug dealer (in my defence, i didn’t know about that)… and i always thought it’s just bad luck, till this summer, just before i found Nat and the site… and now I’m slowly making it happen and starting to rebuilt my life…
thanks so much… it means the world to me:)
xoxo
ana
Red flag and your situation is very similar to mine and led me on an 18 month downward spiral relationship. I’m telling you – not a good sign. I also want to point out that chances are if you do speak up or ask “what’s going on” he might all of a sudden pull the “maybe we aren’t right for each other” line.
I don’t know this guy so I feel kind of harsh saying it but I also felt like I was giving my guy a hard time in the beginning so I let him get away with the “secret-dating” thing. I regret it…TENFOLD.
Hard to imagine faking a relationship to save face. I thought that was only ever something people did on TV shows. I guess I don’t really understand the premise behind it if it didn’t matter what people thought.
I guess you moving to America made you seem like the one who ended up with your tail between your legs. He is total bonafide a$$.
You’re undoubtedly correct that we invite people to treat us the way we deserve. People will only do what you let them. Those are the words I personally live by.
Well funny enough, the guy who I pretended to was someone off the TV… It was easier to go along with it for a few minutes than create what would have been a very awkward situation at an occasion that didn’t need to be dominated by me and my ex.
Nat – this is essentially off topic, but definitely in keeping with the other posts on this site so I hope you’ll include it. I just had an online chat with a well-known player from my hometown. He wasn’t the biggest bast*ard around, but he was up there: a wealthy, good-looking cheater, a serial liar (to the point that he believed his lies about his accomplishments etc), a drug-taker and general party boy. Anyway, he’s now happily married. After congratulating him, I asked him what made him change (because, like you, one of my semi-reasonable, semi-petty fears post-the AC was that somehow I wasn’t worthy of him acting lovingly, and that some gem of a woman would shimmy in and inspire him to be a better man).
He said (what we all know is true): No one made him change, he made himself change after he had hit rock bottom and, in his words, ‘slept with too many women, and hurt too many men’ (by the latter he was talking about sleeping with friends’ girlfriends and reneging in business situations). He built himself up first – what he explained as starting to use his brain again – and THEN found a woman to whom he is now married.
He gave some glimpse into the themes of this post when he said he knew he was being a sh*t the whole way through. Basically though, it seems it is a selfish need to change. It doesn’t come from any tears or rationalisations from the people they’ve hurt. Maybe some social sanctions at play. But, fundamentally, it’s a personal decision. Natalie has said this in her posts.
Anyway, this might have made me a bit twitchy a few months ago (i.e. imagining the AC having his epiphany-marriage…and the less evolved part of me used to imagine her with this perpetual self-composure and shiny hair – this was in the first month or two after bust-up! ; )), but as this guy said, this kind of change is difficult and rare, and most of his friends, he said, are still trying to have it all (i.e. a relationship as well as sex with other women and/or maintain a sense that they could opt-out at any moment).
Thought this could help with the thinking involved in handling break-ups and healing from relationships with EUMs and AC’s….
Yes, I’ve said it before but it bears saying again. It’s rare for them to change. If they do change it will be when THEY want to. And the final kicker is that he will then want a different woman to the fallback girl. He’ll no longer be interested in a woman with low self esteem and no boundaries.
So please don’t stick around trying to change him or yourself in an attempt to keep him. Cos if he does see the light, he’s gonna hotfoot it out of the crappy relationship and onto a new one without all the bad history.
I did not listen to anyone, not even myself. I knew, didn’t want to believe it. I can trust my judgement or perception, I can’t trust that I will act in my own best interest. It makes me so sick that I sank so low. I would search and replay hours upon hours trying to find the smallest little glimmer of hope. Each and every little… oh, maybe this will work…only uncovered that same old ugly truth. Then there was nothing left to try, nothing left to see except what had always been there, the ugly truth. He very kindly, playfully, cowardly, honestly and arrogantly told me how it really was…more times than I care to remember. I don’t know if I can stand to swallow anymore truth. I am so full of toxins, I don’t know if I even know what reality is anymore. I know I hurt. I know he knew exactly what I was the first time he met me. He knew what his intentions were, he hoped to drag it out as long as I let him, he knew where it was going to end. He is finished with me, I no longer serve a purpose. His kids are grown, one more at home and soon she will be gone. I guess I always knew too, I have lived survived abuse all my life, I know nothing else. I suppose I am like a wild animal that has been in captivity, when set free it doesn’t know how to survive. They will usually euthanize an animal like that, because of being non’adaptive, they die. When women go wrong, men go right after them-Mae West
@Hopeful
“I don’t know if I can stand to swallow anymore truth. I am so full of toxins, I don’t know if I even know what reality is anymore. I know I hurt.”
I know exactly how that feels as I was just “there” a month or so ago – the fog has cleared. The truth is still there, but differently, more empowering – helping me to let go some more. The toxic feeling does pass (I felt I wanted to crawl out of my skin) – GONE!
Your reality will come back. And for me, when it did, I felt like my “old” self (self-esteem back, self-love, etc.) plus more. I have had 13 great days in a row – some twinges of sadness – nothing crippling. It DOES GET BETTER!!
Thinking of you! Keep holding on, I know the BEST thing I ever did was cut contact and quit engaging in his antics!
Thank you for putting that advisory out Nat, was thinking of mailing you that the comments are going a little off. Anyways, I just wanted to add one thing, when I was neck deep as some people still seem to be on here, I used to get angry when people told me something that I needed to hear, was right, but I didn’t want to accept it because in some way accepting would also mean that I hadn’t seen it coming while in the relationship. I also used to think that my pain is so much different from that of others or that the unique life stories of ex and me made the treatment different. Truth is the more we think we are different and that others won’t understand certain things is denial. And I think I learnt this in one of Nat’s posts, I think it was something about rules and exceptions.
Well the lies my ex told about me have certainly backfired on him.
He has finnished up with nothing, no home, no county, and nowhere to go.
I have had n/c with him since the police escorted him out of my house and put a 24 hr restraining oder on him.
I was in a relationship with him for 4 years, and it was 4 years of hell for me.
In febuary 2009 we emigrated to australia because he was brought up here as a child from the age of 9 till he was 15 and then lived here again from the age of 20 for another 6 years ( i found out later that these years he didnt have a visa) and he said that we could have a good life here, the only way we could come to australia is if i could get a company to sponser me to work, which i did, and then we had to apply for visas, immigration had no problem granting me one, but at first they would not grant one for him ( this is before i found out that he had overstayed the last visa he had) and after a few discussions with our case officer he was eventually granted one. the visa gave him full working rights in australia and i can only work for my employer, we arrived in australia and 9 days later he left to join a ship he was working on as a chef, this job was for a 4 month contrac, he lasted 1 month before he was on the phone to me saying he was coming back as it wasnt what he wanted and he arrived back, no job no money and living off me. he tried to get a job localy but he kept telling me that noone would employ him as he was to qualified, eventually he got another job on another cruise ship for 5 months, we kept in touch my phone,Email and msn. I was feeling very home sick, i was on my own in a new county and had started a new job, so i was feeling very down, and if i told him how i felt he would call me miss happy, He knew that i was short on money because i had been supporting him and had to find the bond money to put down on a retal apartment, he never sent me any , but every week there would be a request from him to get him something he had seen, if i complained that i couldnt afford it he would call me tight, and say if i loved him i would get it for him, i was at the stage where i would just do it to keep him from calling me a shit person for not supporting him, i was getting to the stage where i was dredding him comming back because i knew that once he was back, he would start spending my money as if it was his ( he never once gave me any money), when he did come back we had arranged to spend christmas with his foster family in Melbourne we are in Perth and melbourne is a 3 hour flight away( these fllights i paid for), while we was there he gave his foster mother and father $1000 , i thought he had given the money out of his own money but no he had taken it out of our joint account that he never put any money into. we came back to perth in january and he was supose to rejoin the ship at the end of january, he decided that he didnt want to go back, so he was out of work yet again, this time for 6 months, in july this year he got a job on an australian cruise ship, and thats when i found out just what he had been upto, he used to use my laptop alot and if i ever checked the history on it it has always showing porn sites and chat rooms. i had put a key logger on my own lap top because i wanted to know if i could find the evidence that he was cheating while he was on the ships. and i haddent really looked untill he had left, and there it was all the chats had been recorded the emails he had sent. and i had the password to a email i had set up for him to use just for me and him. He must have forgotten that i had it, i logged in and a woman that he had met on the ship who also worked on there had been sending him nude pictures of her self to him, and the emails that they had been sending to each other was as if they where in a relationship. I waited untill he phoned me and told him i hope you have a grat life with your new girlfriend because its over between me and you, of course he deniged every thing and said to me prove it so i did and sent him the Emails.
I also told him not to come back to me and i would post his stuff on to where ever he was, but he told me he was comming back because it was where he lived and he would pick his own stuff up, there was no point in saying no because he would just turn up anyway, well i fwe weeks when past and he calls me to tell me that he is getting of the ship earley than expected and when i asked him the date he said he didnt know , ( i now know he left 10 days before he turned up and met his girlfriend for a holiday before he came back. all the time he was telling me he was on the ship. this woman had no idea that he was in arelationship, he had told her that we had split up at christmas and that i was a stalker and a pain in the arse ex who wouldnt leave him alone. well she soon found out about me when i sent her a email telling her to keep him, when he did come back to perth he wanted to stay for 9 weeks before he rejoind the ship, this time i said no i didnt want him in the house, but he would go, he rubbed it in my face about this other woman and told me it was my fault that he cheated because of the way i was I nagged him to much and wouldnt let things go.
I could not see any way of getting him out, i was so unhappy, he was sleeping on the sofa , and on the third day i couldnt take any more of this hurtfull comments about this other woman, and that i had brought every thing on my self because i was a shit person who just wanted to fuck his life up. I got up and asked him to leave, and he said if you want he out then tuff because im not going, i told him i was going to ring his girlfriend to tell her what he was doing and he took my mobile off me and told and started tauting me ring the police if you want me out, i tried to get my mobile back but he wouldnt give it me, and i started hitting him, because he was holding me to stop me from getting to the house phone, well i eventually got to the phone and phoned the police, and they came and because i had made a complaint against him he had to go and stay away for 24 hours, his parting words was i will be your worse nightmare. I have not hered from him since, i also imformed immigration that we where no longer in a relationship and the are going to cancel his visa, he can not work in australia without one, and can not get a visitors visa if he is in australia or a crew visa so which ever he has now cooked his goose.
I have had contact with his sister who told me that he had got incontact with her and he asked if i had got someone else.?????
so all the lies he told me have finally caught up with him and he still blamed me for being a shit person. unbelivable.
Hi all
am new to this sitebut visit it as often and read all your comments on the blog. NML writes
I have learnt a lot from here and am realising so many things that I thought were my fault
being divorced before totally messed me my self esteem but realised he was an Um assclown combo and I’m sadly divorcing again cause second time round thought it was true but no I did it again another assclown but the narccisist and the fact that the whole marriage relationshiph he has based on his version story and that he is right in all and what has hapened and that I agreed to it all and is making it like I was happy living the lies and happy with the so called love he was giving mr and so called providing as a husband my as!
He lied about my identity my son my past who I was everything but his reason was as we both are different religions cultures it was the only way to get married so as I self estemm didn’t exist then I went for all of it only to realise that all the sacrifices love emotions investment loosing my child inthe proceeds for this ac his version will never change.
I was suffocating as I didn’t know who I was I left him and moved out as I needed to find my way I am slowly getting there it’s hard but I still dint know what’s real and what isn’t at times
he still is the same sticking to his fdup version eventhou we are divorcing still after a the pain he’s put me thru and the best part is he’s started looking for the right pair of eyes as he calls it
I am trying no contact with him but it’s hard as we work together as well which makes it a struggle for mr everyday as his version of lies continue there as well!
I know all this but still long for him at times which annoys me even more.
I have been Reading your articles NML and wil continue everytime I have a slip up till I continue to get there.
hi.. i added baggagereclaim to my favorites… thanks for all. i just wanted to add to this post. i was involved with EUman (boy). He was/is the quintessential image man. A red flag I should have heeded way in the beginning, (8 years) ago, when he and I were on our first outing and he said in a strange way “You do know it’s all about image”.. He being a rich banker in NYC and me being well still me, not into the snobbery and pom and circumstance. Fast forward… many years of run around, cat and mouse, the chase, the pull back (me) the hot the cold the warm, the pull back (me) and then again teh same old same old. BUT the thing is I have gone to counseling because he was/is i guess (he moved to asia, a blessing) a liar. i mean he lied and i would call him out and he would keep lying but he tripped up. i acutally waited to trip him up and i did. I keep trying to decided why the hell i stayed in it. and the worst thing is being with him, i started to lie a bit here and there too to keep me looking good. I go to counseling about it but his lying and so smoothly that he really did buy his own sh… makes me ill. I hope i didn’t write too much but you know this helps. Grazie Ciao.