Picture this (adopts Sophia from Golden Girls voice): You meet somebody on a dating website (read: introduction website after all, you can’t actually ‘date’ on it), you exchange a few emails and texts, maybe you chat on the phone a few times and then you meet up, hopefully within the first week or two because beyond that you get into building sandcastles in the sky territory. Between reading their profile, viewing any photos and these initial exchanges, you glean information about that person but at some point, maybe when you meet up, it comes to light that this person hasn’t been truthful and you feel uncomfortable.
- Maybe they lied about their age. Some people knock off decades, some people knock off a year or two. It can seem harmless but it more often than not rings alarm bells.
- Maybe they lied about their identity because they claim to be scared of “fake people showing up at their door”. The irony of course is that the person is then faking aspects of themselves to prevent fakes. O-K…
- Maybe the picture is a misrepresentation because it’s very old or not even them at all. It then looks like they’re living in the past or flat out living a lie. It all gets a bit Catfish-y.
- Maybe they’ve lied about their qualifications or what type of job they do, where they live or something. This can seem harmless until it becomes apparent that it’s representative of either a double life and/or their perennial need to exaggerate themselves in some way.
Whatever the lie is and whether they regard the lie as big or small, when it comes to light, it tends to create an awkwardness at best and at worst, a sense of deep confusion and even being defrauded.
We live in a day and age where there are some who don’t see an issue with making up jobs and qualifications on their CV/resume and where others take it as a given that ‘everyone’ lies on dating websites, plus everyone who lies and omits has a reason for doing so that they think ‘makes sense’ or is legitimate, but what we must not do is get into the habit of disregarding the concerns of people who feel uncomfortable with lies, exaggerations and omissions.
History, over-empathy, and yes, sometimes a need for a BS Diet, blind us to very real issues because we focus on how we desire things to be, not how they are. Sometimes part of why we sympathise is due to the fact that we’re not truthful ourselves and that’s where we are most likely to be okay with what’s happened. Of course if we’re trying to improve our self-esteem and are striving to be emotionally available, being met with dishonesty at ‘Stage 0’ is going to be unsettling and especially when we are at a really important growth stage in our lives where we want to break old patterns, ignoring that discomfort can really do a number on our sense of self.
If you feel uncomfortable with lies, omissions, and exaggerations that you’ve uncovered with somebody you either haven’t met or have only known for a short time, listen to that discomfort because it’s alerting you to be mindful – feet and head firmly planted in reality. You are well within your rights to FLUSH.
People will say stuff like, “Oh, they lied because they were afraid that you’re a stalker” (Yes, of course you should be worried that the person who is lying to you thinks that you’re a stalker…) or “Maybe they’ve been really hurt before” or “Stop being so judgmental”, or whatever, but that won’t remove the reasons for your discomfort although it may camouflage it temporarily, causing you to put the pursuit of expectations or these people’s approval ahead of your concerns. Note, it’s not “judgmental” to feel uncomfortable with lies. If anyone has judged anyone, it’s the person who told the lie.
Look at how many of us find it difficult to have a straight up, honest conversation with someone who we do know. How the hell are we supposed to do this with strangers and know that it’s honest?
Some people find it difficult to step up and clarify ambiguous situations and concerns with people who they’ve been involved with for years. Lots of people pussyfoot around family members or fear alienating their friends by speaking up or asking what they perceive as ‘tricky questions’ aka ones that pave the way to honest communication even it only ends up coming from one side.
In previous posts I’ve referred to The Debit and Credit Trust System. In essence, once you’re willing to listen to and respond to you and so in turn, increasing self-awareness, self-knowledge and of course your self-esteem, you can enter into situations with a basic level of trust (let’s call it 70%) because you trust you to be conscious, aware, and present, and to also act in your best interests. You have trust because you trust you. You then allow situations and people to unfold in reality and you either increase trust based on real consistent evidence or you decrease it instead of trusting (or distrusting) blindly.
When a person you don’t know or who you hardly know basically asks you to accept that they have already lied to you in some way, you are in essence being asked to trust that person beyond the basic level of trust that you enter into situations with despite not having the evidence to increase trust, especially because contextually, if anything you should be decreasing trust or certainly not budging from your initial position. That in a nutshell is why it’s a problem when you encounter lies no matter how innocuously they’re being portrayed as by the other party.
They’re saying, “I know I haven’t been honest with you and that we don’t really know each other but I need you to trust me.” Um, that sh*t doesn’t make sense. It’s also unsafe. They don’t enter into a situation with a basic level of trust and they make a judgement about you or people in general that governs their lie and then expect you to have more trust than they do/did? You then have to play Jessica Fletcher even when you really don’t want to because you then have to verify information you’d taken as true plus even if you didn’t do that – probably not a bad idea to do so though – you will then have moments where you wonder if that person is being truthful. There’s enough anxiety going on with this whole dating malarkey without feeling confused about your gut and their authenticity. This can be made all the worse if you find out as opposed to them fessing up immediately.
People do make mistakes and misjudge what they should do in a situation and so they end up giving the wrong impression of themselves, and yes some people do habitually tell lies. When you ‘meet’ somebody online, initial conversations and meetings need to have an element of verifying what they’ve portrayed and claimed, as well as what you’ve assumed. Thankfully if any discrepancies come to light at ‘Stage 0’, there can be little damage as opposed to finding out further down the line when you typically struggle to discern fact from fiction and find it difficult to disentangle yourself due to your feelings.
Ultimately, you have to decide what you’re comfortable with. No one else can do that for you including the person of interest. Regardless of whether you proceed or not, the one thing you need to do when discrepancies become apparent is to take it as an at best, code amber warning and stop, look, listen, and do not proceed until you are absolutely clear and genuinely comfortable about what’s going on.
There are a lot of people who tell porkies on the internet but there are plenty of people who don’t. If you’ve used a dating website in good faith and not ‘tweaked’ reality, it’s understandable to feel uncomfortable when it becomes apparent that someone who you’ve been engaging with isn’t being truthful. If anything, be more worried if you don’t feel uncomfortable.
Your thoughts?
PS Please be safe online whether it’s with dating or anything else. This is not a post about broadcasting personal details online or about giving out your info to every person you speak to. Be safe. That comes as standard. But you don’t need to lie about your age, your photo, whether you have a degree, which city, state/county, country or whatever you live in for safety reasons especially when people end up trusting you based on this misrepresentation and you keep up the lie. These are for vanity and BS reasons alone.
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What if they didn’t list their daughter on their online dating profile (because she lives with her mother in another state) and shared this information on the third date (after a couple of weeks of e-mails and phone calls before the first date)?
Deft Pink – flush! It astounds me how many men purposely do not acknowledge their children. The message is: “I don’t want my children and other responsibilities to get in the way of my dating”. Ew.
If a man won’t acknowledge his own DNA creations, why do you think he’d ever treat YOU better than the gum on his shoe (which he’s at least admit to)?
There are attractive, emotionally available men that DO proudly state the truth about reality and let the chips fall where they may. These men also do not say awful things about their “ex”, even of they have custody, by the way.
Another thing, Deft Pink: How comfortable do you think HE would be if you fibbed all over HIM? In my experience, cheaters and liars hate even a whiff of what they dish out. HE can lie, but he’ll demand all sorts of details from you! Yuck. Flush!
So True- In Def Pink’s case, you may be taking things a bit far. When introducing yourself, it’s not necessary to reveal all this info. It’s reasonable to me to reveal that he has a daughter on the third date as it’s too soon for either party to have a huge emotional investment while showing some promise that it could lead to something. He didn’t deny having a daughter, mind you, just didn’t list it on profile. That’s OK as long as he reveals it fairly quickly, which he did in this case.
Oops…”Def Pink” should read “Deft Pink”. I apologize.
No, I’m definitely not for giving a lot of personal information up front. But, I keep hearing from women whop date online who say that the men they meet consider themselves childless – and say so on their dating profiles – because their ex has primary custody. “No children”.
This is really a question for you deft pink to answer – why have you noticed it, if it has no meaning for you?
There is no set moral standard as to when to do this and when to do that. Each of us has certain personal moral standards – we are all different – some radically more than others and when we look for a real mate for ourselves, we look for one, subconsciously, that will match those standards that we learned as children and adults in our experiences.
If he doesn’t match your expectations of a mate – you are being given a true gift this early on – unless you are desperate and attached already and in to hurt yourself? Email chats can be extremely seductive to the imagination – less sensory information to prove that your fantasy is actually not real.
If you are not sure slow the dating right down to nothing – until you are absolutely comfortable with being around him in all issues of trust that are important to you. If you aren’t and you ignore it – I guarantee it will come back around to bite you in the a** probably about the time when you have forgotten all about it and have a kid with him yourself. Guaranteed. Listen to yourself Deft pink. Listen to yourself!
My mistake!! – Sorry I mean – values – not moral standards that is a different thing. We have an internal values list was what I was trying to say — badly.
Yeah; I know someone who has a friend who married a guy who kind of forgot to tell her about his other children, until AFTER they were married. O, what a tangled web we weave…
Hi Everybody! I haven’t been around in quite awhile since I still didn’t get a new computer. But I do read the posts. I agree with you, Rosie. It’s not necessary to post (I presume we’re talking about online dating?) your life history until you’ve made a promising contact with someone and the feeling seems to be mutual. I had the experience years ago when I had asked an online buddy to review my profile and give me his opinion because I wanted better results. He told me that I was giving too much information and that I should leave some questions for a guy to ask. I agreed and never forgot that advice. It’s highly debatable if one should mention being a parent right off the bat. My feeling is once there is a phone convo that is definitely the time to divulge that vital info.
I have to laugh because I was thinking about another on-line escapade but would definitely state I would be looking for a CASUAL FRIENDSHIP. The thing that stops me is that I feel I would have to lower my age by 3-4 years in order to get any hits at all. That turns me off because I’m not a person devious person. Furthermore, what happens if a relationship develops that turns out to be more serious than anticipated? Then, I’d have to eventually confess my real age which could definitely be problematic because he would feel mistrustful of me just as I would him if the situation were reversed. Total honesty is always best, but you don’t have to give your total life history unprompted. The profile is just a starting point, and not the be all and end all. That’s my opinion.
?
Of course, DENYING having any children is a horse of a different color in which case FLUSH as fast as you can.
Tinkerbell
Own who you are; if someone is that shallow about your age, they’ll nitpick about dozens of other things as well. No need to overshare too soon. We are not our family, our past. The children thing is heavily dependent on the age of the guy, age of the kids. If the kids are grown and gone, they’re peripheral to his life. Young kids or live there kids are an entirely different matter. However, NO ONE should deny their own flesh and blood.
Hey Noquay. Nice to hear from you. Yes, I agree. If the child is an adult they would be peripheral to the relationship. Hopefully, we BRers would know when to bring it up, and it doesn’t have to be in the first phone convo. I was responding to the question of confessing parenthood of youngsters. Its all part of being YOU and being straightforward. Thanks for your comment. We agree.
This is coming from a parent… If a man says he do doesn’t have custody of his kids it’s a code amber. Ask lots of questions.
I say this for two reasons:
1. A lot of people don’t realize that men can usually get some custody unless there is something serious going on like drugs, jail, abuse, etc. Many states now push for 50/50 as standard. Don’t believe stories about the evil ex who stole the children away. The family courts don’t work that way.
2. If it’s not something serious then he has no interest in maintain a relationship with his kids. He will do the same to you if you have kids with him. I know so many single moms whose ex husbands have started over with 2-3 families leaving the kids behind and really making a mess of their kids either being absent or dipping in and out.
So True and Anon- OK. Anon, you’re a parent and, So True, it seems you have more knowledge of what’s out there than what I do. Thus, I defer to your experience in this matter.
Anon, did Deft Pink say she lived in the States? Her country’s laws may make it difficult for fathers but no matter. What matters is if he is putting forth effort to actually be a father.
Deft Pink- Did he say how much time he spends with his daughter?
Also, how old is his daughter? Is she now an adult? If so, this may be a reason why he didn’t mention it in the beginning.
Deft Pink did say his daughter lives in another state. Oh never mind…If it’s not my experience I will work on staying quiet. 🙁
Rosie I don’t see this as a question about being a parent or not/ experiencing parenthood or not – I believe it is a question about Deft Pink understanding what her own values are and applying them or not – we have all been a child and so you can relate partially through that from your own perspective, by projecting your own experience onto Deft Pink’s date/father but we don’t walk literally in his child’s shoes or in his shoes either.
I do like the idea of asking plenty of questions but sometimes this just gives someone experienced in deception, way too much rope to give the slip and explain their way out of behaviours that actually we already know don’t match in our values list.
Our values list allows us to trust who we allow near us and who we don’t – if you don’t know what your values are – how can you ever know who is safe for you to trust or who is not?
Well Nat you hit the nail on the head again with this one. Meet a guy on a dating site we emailed a few times than texted back and forth then finally talked on the phone. During our conversations he said he still looked like his picture that was a few years old except that his hair was a bit grayer now. Well we finally make plans to meet in person. So I arrive first and I’m standing outside waiting and when he arrives I about fall over and get the most uncomfortable feeling (oh those strong spidey senses LOL). I guess he forgot to mention his picture had to be more than 10 years old. Needless to say that date was very uncomfortable for me as I couldn’t wonder if anything he told me was the truth. Luckily afterwards I didn’t contact him and he didn’t contact me. Really makes me wonder how anyone can expect to start a possible relationship when they start with it off with a lie.
than 10 years old
Yeahhh…all too familiar!
When I was “meeting” potential dates on the internet, I ran into this at the very first meeting:
Some guy lied about being a non-smoker (he had a pack of cigarettes tucked in his t-shirt sleeve);
Another guy said he was my age, and he was at least 20 years older;
Another guy said he “loved” plump women (which I am) and on the first meeting, he said “Oh my gawd, I can’t believe how huge you are!” (I am not huge, I am only 15 lbs. over my ideal weight);
Another said he was employed and he was on welfare;
Another guy said he had no kids, but 2 of them called while we were having coffee.
Needless to say, I did not give these bozos a second chance!
Met the exAC Narc online. He’s parading around as this successful, got his act together guy. All pathological lying. I bumped into him last month. He was showing me pics of house he bought in June. LOL, another lie. Someone else owns it. He’s probably house sitting at best. Cant get a mortgage with 100K outstanding tax fraud liens. What a loser. I really wanted to call him out on the sham, but decided it just wasnt even worth the energy.
I can only comment on my own internet dating experiences, such as they are:
1. When they immediately call you “dear, sweetie, honey”, this is usually the build-up to a scam.
2. Most sites caution you NOT to provide private cell phone numbers or e-mails. There is a good reason for this.
3. When they press me further on #2, I tell them that “…consistent with this website’s comments, and out of an abundance of caution, I do not provide my cell phone number to someone I have not yet met”. This usually flushes them out of your life.
4. I had one guy complain that a woman posted a young photo of herself, and then when she showed up, she was 70 (?!). Of course, it didn’t stop this same guy from posting a photo of himself at 30, and he was 50 when he showed up on our date.
5. Recently, I had a date who, when he heard my blood type, told me, “That’s good…you and I are racially pure” and became a tobacco industry fanboy when I pointed out that I was anti-smoking.
6. Usually, when they start writing you on the dating site, or via an e-mail I would suggest using for no other purpose, and there’s lots of flowery prose, stories of “widow-dom” and “kids whisked about by their mother in another country”, this is usually the precursor to a scam and/or some sort of request for money.
It’s a crazy world out there — be careful. At this rate, hermit status is looking pretty good to me! Best of luck —
Res – they may also call you “dear, sweetie, honey” cuz they can’t remember your name and don’t want to have to keep you straight with all the other “dears, sweeties, honeys” they’re scamming! Haw!
Jessica Fletcher 4Evar!
Oh man. I’ve seen this very topic discussed even on different non-dating sites over the years. Confidence is sexy, and a man who lays it out is going to get quality responses, right? Maybe fewer responses, but quality ones.
–And, I’m a young, hot number of average female height who prefers muscular men of average height. Taller-than-average men are a turn off to me. Yeah I said it. Men: there are lots of us, but if you lie to me online about your height, I’ll just think you’re a liar and that you think I’m stupid – not sexy. It’s not about your height! Or whatever you’re hiding.
It’s gettin’ all “Murder, She Wrote” up in here, I see. 😉 Great post, Nat.
Very good advice, Natalie. I met a classic example that supports the point of this article at my yoga class. Have seen him there for about a year, maybe more. One time we bumped into each other outside of the class and after that he started to pursue me hard. I agreed to go out for a dinner and it was nice, he was a gentleman, but there was something suspicious about him. During dinner he mentioned that everyone in his family is married except for him. I asked him, why not, and he joked that I should answer that question for myself. I retorted by saying that I was first to ask and he, almost like the memory suddenly came to him, said “Oh I used to be married once”. I decided to be alittle careful with him after that incident, and plus, he was pursuing me waaaay to hard. He asked me out on a coffee date, which I used as an opportunity to dig a little deeper. I found out where he worked and what his age was. After the date, armed with a few pieces of information like his first name(which is not a common one), his place of work and his age, I started investigating his background online. Linkedin provided me with his last name and a page in google revealed that he lied to me about his age(he said that he was 44 whereas the age that correlated with his name was 49). I couldn’t find his facebook profile through google so I searched through facebook itself. Lo and behold, his last name on facebook didn’t match his linkedin last name! It was his definitely his face on the profile picture. Some more searching on google revealed that his house is registered to someone with a slightly different name(‘e’ instead of ‘a’). All of this was so suspicious, that next time he called me, I just told him that I decided to go back to my ex. I preferred to end it this way instead of confronting him, because the way I see it, there is no point in confronting a 49yo liar about his lies. I can’t change him but I can protect myself from a liar!
I just want to add that he definitely didn’t look 44yo. when I asked his age, I was sure he would say 48-49 and was totally surprised when he said 44. So my instincts were confirmed by a simple google search! I definitely learned that it pays to be your personal private eye.
Here is another example: a guy I met online and started dating shortly after the above incident was still active on match.com while professing his feelings to me. I am so glad that I decided to check and subsequently confront him about it, because it helped bring some mutual trust issues to the surface(he claimed that he thought I wasn’t that interested in him so he was still keeping his profile online)
Oh, I LOVE THIS POST! Internet dating stories! I got a million of them! All bad!
That’s why I won’t do it any more. And if I ever did, I’d be insisting on a face to face meeting after the first couple of emails. Otherwise, I’m not buying. (This nicely rules out fantasy long-distance relationships as well.)
You can tell more about a person who you meet in real life in about 30 seconds than you can in a month, or even six months, of emails. I found that one out the hard way, too: I spent months in a torrid reciprocal email/phone call things with one guy, and when I finally met him, he drove dangerously with road rage, chewed with his mouth open, and compared me unfavourably with his ex. Mutual repulsion. Fergeddaboudit.
Spend half a day with a stranger in a non-dating setting – eg a training day at work, sitting next to them on a plane, or collaborating on a workshop – and you will know straight up about potential turnoffs. Bad breath, dandruff, nail-biting, whatever it is – you see it/smell it straight away. None of these things appear in a dating profile or via email.
And that’s even BEFORE you get to the deliberate lies!
(SoTrue, I’m with you. I like shorter men, as I don’t get such a crick in my neck. It’s hard to deal with small-man-syndrome, though).
Chewed with his mouth open!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It sounds so shallow, I know, but there were other things as well …
I guess my point is that when you haven’t actually seen/met someone in real life in person, it’s far too easy for the imagination to fill in the gaps with good stuff, eg. wonderful sex, romance, candlelight everything, long long long conversations, moonlight walks.
But one never thinks to fill in the gaps with any of the following:
* strange laugh
* body odour/dubious personal hygiene
* nose-picking
* earwax-picking and eating
* smelly feet
* tendency to raise voice at end of sentence
* tendency to finish other people’s sentences
* sweaty palms
* etc – choose your own pet peeves.
None of these need be a deal-breaker, of course, because they are all the kinds of things that can be changed/managed if two people are really mad about each other, and all the good stuff is in place.
But they’re also the kinds of things that you will pick up on immediately if you meet a person in real life, rather than spending six months telling an imaginary person every intimate detail about yourself, and then feeling like an utter fool for doing so when you meet them in the flesh.
“People will say stuff like, “Oh, they lied because they were afraid that you’re a stalker” (Yes, of course you should be worried that the person who is lying to you thinks that you’re a stalker…) or “Maybe they’ve been really hurt before” or “Stop being so judgmental”,
Oh, I hate this. The subtexts are so clear:
‘Being single is not acceptable. You should be part of a couple. You are making the rest of us feel uncomfortable.’
‘Damn, girl, you’re old/ugly/damaged. Stop being so picky, and settle for someone who doesn’t scratch himself in public.’
‘You cannot be happy on your own. It is better to be unhappy with a maniac/stalker/deviant/drug addict/criminal, than to be happy on your own.’
Ethelreda you bring me joy!
Eth, same happens with my friends! I was mentioning that I’m clear on dating sites that I’m monogamous, and if I find out they have not been with me, they’re G.O.N.E. One woman (married) said I was being a bit harsh and judgmental. (really??? No; I’m being smart.)
I think it is sometimes a rebuke to people who ‘settled’, if you are not willing to do so yourself.
Sometimes, though, it’s just a lack of imagination on their part. They seriously can’t imagine themselves ever being able to live happily without a partner, and so they can’t imagine you doing it either.
Perfection is not out there. We all know that. But there’s a huge difference between finding someone who you can live with, and who is decent and honest and will go the distance with compromise and good will, and settling for Mr Doesn’t Scratch Himself In Public.
I haven’t gone on dating websites, but I did question a neighbour recently who I knew to be putting pictures on them of him with his cute baby niece, when he just wanted sex with as many women as possible. I asked why he chose that photo, if it would give the wrong impression, and he said ‘I want to settle down when I find the right woman’, but really that was nonsense to me. I know he’s on the prey for ‘yummy mummies’, I’m pretty sure he’s cynical and this is why he’s putting up this child-friendly photo. There are some bizarre people out there, who like him, are pleasant to be around and seem normal, but we can’t make assumptions about how they are in matters of love and sex.
happy b,
I agree about there being bizarre people out there. I met one guy who fit that description. He came off as a regular guy and talked incessantly about his love for ballroom dancing. He was a womanizer. He had a wandering eye yet tried to deny it. He is an AC yet a lot of people seemed to like him. He worked in law enforcement so I figured he was an honest guy. How wrong I was! I fell for his charming (deceitful) ways. Thankfully he moved. I’m sure he’s sweet talking other women in his new location. Warning: If you run into a 61 year old, who has never been married, speaks several languages, and loves to ballroom dance, RUN!!!
Nat, looove this post. This is why I no longer date on line. A real shame that lying on line is now considered to be OK, standard behavior. Wasted a lot of time driving 100+ miles one way to meet the handful of educated men in the region only to find they lied about health, height, weight, marital status, profession, education. Blew up my last car driving back from one of these, an expensive experience. Even more heartbreaking was when I found that the AC had hidden a relationship elsewhere for two years (what brought me to BR in the first place)and an out of town dude I just broke off contact with neglected to tell me about his.
I’ve been kicking myself for dating someone who gave me the wrong name, lied about his age, gave the wrong place he lived on OKCupid, and got upset when I asked to see his driver’s license. I’ve stayed with him for 9 months because of compatibility, chemistry, and caring, but — as Natalie has frequently discussed — that and a dime will get you a ride on the IRT (sorry, New Yorker joke). In addition, he very averse to any kind of commitment,so I’m basically betting on potential. (And should I really want more of a commitment from such a guy anyway?) Intellectually I know I need to FLUSH, but I’m finding it really hard to actually do it. I’m trying to take small steps. Why is it so hard for the heart (and, okay, other parts of the body) to accept what the head knows? Any thoughts, fellow BR readers?
BTW, I’m 48, nice looking (I’m told), have a house and a decent job, and 3 wonderful kids. Why am I so messed up in this area?
Thanks for the awesome postings, Natalie. This one really hit home!
Because our own egos want to believe WE are the winner of the elusive Prince Charming prize that every woman is looking for?
Because we are really tired of being “out there” and the AC relationship is better than nothing?
Because we are so bored with our existence that “man drama” is our easy fix?
I don’t have any answers…just hazarding some guesses.
I love 1930’s movies and watching one last night, a man says “Why do women always fall in love with what they WANT a man to be rather than seeing him as he really is?”
Age old question.
Elgie R, that’s so true! And the guy even said at the very beginning that what you see is what you get. Your first and second points are definitely on the mark. It’s tiring being out there, and the alternative to the AC is some vague hope of a healthy/suitable guy (who might sadly bore me anyway) in the future. You have to have faith and keep moving forward, I guess. Thanks!
Heels,
I think it is very concerning that “healthy?suitable” is boring. Good Lord!
Do you really enjoy living your life with inconsistency and drama. Why do you enjoy so much work? Plus there’s no future, but I guess that’s what you want.
It is concerning to get “bored” with suitably/healthy guys, but many of us feel the same way. I think, without doing work on yourself, you will have a hard time rewiring your attraction-receptors away from charm and drama and towards stability and security. You can’t just force yourself to change your habits and desires. You have to take a deep journey within yourself, ask yourself if you are codependent, ask yourself if you are a love-addict, read the literature, go to AlAnon or CODA or COSA meetings. Before doing that, check your self-esteem. Check your self-worth. Do you find yourself worthy of your own company? Perhaps not if you find yourself attracted to charming/slippery folk. What might you be avoiding about yourself? Do you feel purposeless without a relationship? Do you feel purposeless at work? As a family-member? As a friend? Or, alternatively, when you are in a stable or healthy relationship, are you afraid of commitment? Do you feel overwhelmed? These aren’t easy questions to answer, but the best time to start is now.
Dawg,
I can understand how that could happen unconsciously, but not consciously. It’s like saying I am attracted to creeps, and lifetime of chaos and drama.
I used to be attracted to the ‘charming’ guys, but truly thought I wanted a good relationship. After my last, I recognized that my type was not healthy, and made the changes. I noticed patterns and reflected on what was affecting my choices. There was work, but in the end, it was life changing.
I guess we have to decide if we wish to live in peace, or continue in the drama. Life is too hard to continue with the latter.
I’ve got a question, fellow BRs. You talk about “making better choices”. Lucky you, at least you’ve got a choice! After a lifetime of being involved with all kinds of EUM variations, I’ve figured out my pattern and thanks to all of you, understand the dynamics of such relationships much better. But I continue to meet only EUMs, it’s just that now I recognise them for what they are and I’m not getting involved with them. But I continue to meet only EUMs (recently, four of them got in contact with me) and therefore have no “choice” to make because I’ve got nothing to choose between. It’s not that I’m blind – I do meet nice guys but they’re either married or not interested in me. I’m very sad and frustrated but don’t want to go back to this type of relationships. Has this happened to anybody else of you (is happening)? Any thoughts, advice??
Mephista, I could say very similar to you.
There is no easy answer but choice has been a big theme in my life in the past year so I’m going to get philosophical.
I don’t believe that everything that happens in life is the outcome of our choices, I just don’t think us humans are that powerful – BUT I’ve found that we do have an awful lot more choice than I used to believe, and when we start exercising those choices, life changes dramatically. Our actions have consequences, it’s scientific! I have made choices not to take others’ disrespectful treatment of me seriously, and to put my energy into the people and things that nurture me. It sounds obvious but I used to expend huge amounts of energy and brainpower trying to figure out why family members were being uncaring etc. Also after getting a stress-related immunity disease, I realised stress doesn’t just happen to you, we can put our health before everything else to prevent getting ill again and take concrete measures, from deep breaths to running to writing, or any other way to get it out. (But we are just human so certain diseases can’t be prevented and we just have to make the best of our health as long as we have it.)
I have a lot of love for the people in my life and when I think of the key people who failed me, it is always followed by thinking how strong I was to get through it and how lucky I am to be a compassionate and assertive person.
So where does this leave me in relation to men? No emotionally available men have appeared in this time, and EUMs have, so not a very satisfying answer. But in the meantime, I’ve become much happier in myself, learned from mistakes, and I have faith that I’m on the right path. We can also choose to minimise the drama of EUMs – yes they have tried it on with us, but it’s as significant as we make it.
We don’t control the world and the people around us, but we do choose what to do with our reactions.
High heels backwards and all,
The idea that a healthy/suitable guy is boring and a love rat is exciting is an old trope, but as c’dawg and Allison show, a lot of it is how we see ourselves. If you believe you’re exciting and interesting but can also be stable and consistent, it’s possible that someone else can be too. If turbulence and craziness are our normal, the thought of someone who doesn’t experience those highs and lows seems impossible.
Are all the couples you know boring? If so, limit your time around them and think more of the inspiring ones.
Thank you for your thoughts, Happy B, we do have similar experiences! I’ve also got stress-related illness, also matured considerably (I think and hope) and I also think that I might never meet anybody normal but I know I’m on the right track. And knowing that as a child, cought in the middle of the dramas between my seriously EUM father and pleaser mother, I had zero choice. I can only say that I survived and no longer depend for my very existence on my parents. I don’t need to please, be perfect and liked to survive. This has been strangely therapeutic for me. My life drama factor is seriously reduced. So, I’m still single but there’s progress!
Heels,
I’m confused??? This guy has repeatedly lied to you, and is incapable of any commitment. What’s there to bet on?
HHBackwards, yup; another NYork saying is “…that plus $7.98 won’t get you a cuppa coffee at Starbucks!”
Your heart has goodness in it; it’s hard, esp. if you might (like I did) have an abusive upbringing that caused me to ignore my heart and my common sense and my gut feelings. But your tender heart deserves truth, kindness, and reciprocity. If you honor your heart and your lovingness, you will eventually see that this joker doesn’t deserve your love and attention. Trust yourself, and your small steps will eventually help you to break free from anyone who doesn’t merit your love.
I am glad to see that other’s ask questions and are alert to details — especially in “online” situations. I don’t think it’s acceptable to lie either, and I wonder what they expect if you do meet and they have lied? Are you supposed to be polite and act like you didn’t notice? Or are you supposed to be “desperate” and not care? Sometimes I hear stories from full grown women that I work with, and I despair at the chances they take and the bull they believe, all because they WANT a relationship so bad.
I found out about liars online when I found my (Now) ex husband had an online identity and was looking for “one good woman”. I joined the marriage police and started gathering evidence. He averaged contacting 25 to 50 new women a day, using some vague compliment about how attractive he found them to be — the ones who answered he tried to establish conversation with, and get an email or phone # as quickly as possible, then he went into lie overload. His profile was such a big lie — all the things women want to hear, but nothing even vaguely truthful He was already telling them he was divorced — little did he know how quickly that could be arranged!
I did find out one interesting thing though, and perhaps you could address this issue. Before I confronted him, I got online and wrote to several of the women he was talking to. I explained the situation, and told them I had discovered his online presence, and what a liar he was. I thought they would be grateful for the warning — but NO! Several of them accused me of being a “jealous, stalking girlfriend, trying to make trouble.” Really, no good deed goes unpunished.
I think if you listen carefully that liars will eventually tell you who they really are, some just take longer than others. People that know the liars may not want to “get involved”. Former flames and ex-wives probably are bitter — but they may very well have a right to be. At the very least, store the information and analyze it. Use it before you jump in headfirst and trusting. Liars lie. Con men lie particularly well. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is a lie. Sad but true. If you have any self worth at all, do not provide pictures that you would not want anyone else to see, or texts and emails you do not want made public. Don’t fall for the bull that they want it to remember you “at this beautiful moment.” Pictures make you one of a million interchangeable body parts, and grown men should already know what grown women look like. They are trophies, and they are shown to their friends/buddies, fellow perverts. Be careful and wary out there!
I agree, it is so sad to see so many women will not trust another woman in this day & age. Had you written me, of course, I’d have asked for proof of who you are, but I do know if a woman is going to reach out like that and contact me, she’s got something important to say. it’s also too bad friends & neighbors won’t ‘get involved’; I keep remembering the Anastasia King case..no one wanted to get involved. Makes me want to puke.
I agree. It seems really prevalent here in the west where “personal freedom” trumps all else. Zero accountability to others, the community as a whole. Friend of mine, married, with kids, was killed by her stalker. This dude had been a problem in the community for 5 years, targeting numerous women and it was allowed to happen. There are women with serious substance issues who routinely harass other women and men and it’s sposed to be A OK. I would been sooo grateful if one of the many folk who knew of the ACs involvement with another would’ve come forward or the girlfriend of hoteducatedrunnerdude woulda shown up in town sooner. We can only listen to our gut, pay attention to inconsistency and understand the information we are operating on may not be accurate. Women who get angry with the truth want to hold on to the fantasy, although they probably had some sense of unease all along.
My inoyt
The thing about the pictures is correct! Before a couple of weeks while I was drinking beer with friends I was surprised, that a friend showed me naked pictures of a girl. The pictures were taken minutes after the had sex.
Before 3 years another friend showed part of home made porn of him and his ex in this time.
In the both cases I was really surprised, because:
1. My friends were really proud, what they are showing me
2. Why the hell this girls were posing? Don’t they have enough self esteem and why the hell they like their partner to have naked pictures of them?
Please ladies and gentlemen, don’t give any naked photos to your partner … why the hell your partner will need your naked photos … there should be some freak idea behind this.
Years ago, in the school cafeteria, a female student was loudly ranting about some dude posted a Utube of her and others dancing drunk and buck naked at a party. As her strident voice was impossible to ignore and interfering with Noquays digestion, I calmly asked her why, pray tell, was she jeopardizing her safety by getting so intoxicated in the company of strangers, and, given the proliferation of cell videos, did she think her display was going to go unrecorded. She was mad as hell at me, told me twas none of my business to which I said “broadcasting your lack of good judgement so loudly that everyone in the building hears you”, also told her that potential employers often check social networking sites as a way to gauge the honesty and good judgement of a potential hire, especially with entry level hires. Nothing that can be posted electronically, is sacred and yep, folk need to act accordingly. The dude that professes to loooove you today, may wanna humiliate you tomorrow.
I agree with you!
The guy who showed to me the homemade porn, was humiliating his ex. They were my roommates for 3 months and I knew her and he showed me the “movie” after she left him. Fer me this was disgusting and I left the room.
This post hits a weird vibe with me. See, I fully intend to use a nickname
when I begin online dating. Mom was determined to give me an unusual name and she succeeded.
There is one other woman with my first name in the small town I live in. If one googles my first and last name (both are quite unusual), one can see my address, my college, my family, and various random aspects of my history.
I tried online dating once. I returned an email to a man and automatically signed my first name to it. That night someone was fumbling at my door knob, trying to get in.
As a single woman living by myself with no means of self-defense in my house, I was terrified. I got my front door rekeyed and stopped online dating.
And if/when I ever do date, I shall use a more common name until I trust the guy. If he flushes me for lying to him, so be it.
Hey…I don’t think using a nickname is bad at all on a dating website. Your situation is unique. I hope to god you have some self protection in the house, like a shotgun/handgun/pepper spray, and an escape route plan.
Absolutely use a different name! It’s very easy to “triangulate” between your first name, your job or work or hobby, and your location, and bring up possible info about yourself that you may not want known right off the bat. That isn’t deceptive; that’s smart! Of course, if you meet ’em for coffee and want to continue, then tell them your real name with a very simple “I don’t share personal information before I feel comfortable with doing so, as a single woman,” and most straight-up guys will absolutely honor you for doing that. I had coffee once with a very strange weirdo, and I was glad I never told him my real first name!
*i forgot to add that I live in a smallish town and one person besides myself has my first name. If one googles my first name plus the town I live in, one has my address and her blog in the first three entries.
I never used my real name when on line but I still was cyber stalked anyway. You cannot hide your town if you use your correct zip code plus given the stigma attached to my town, there is an ethical issue here. I am the only mixed race academic chick here, so my real name, place of work, address was easy to find. This dude was on multiple sites, would change his appearance slightly, change profession and where he lived. Another dude, a “weight liar” apparently in search of a shag, drove up last minute, got to the restaurant ahead of me as I walked there. The waitperson h
helpfully told him where I lived. Now I have a REALLY big dog.
@ReplyName, I was going to say it sounds like you need a nice big dog 🙂
I give the zipcode of a larger town nearby, rather than my own small-town zipcode.
I wish I could’ve done that. The nearest next towns are both around 25 miles away and are very different in reputation and feel from my beleaguered redneck place so it’d be false advertising. Funny , I actually live in a part of the county that overlooks the town but its the same zip code.
Natalie, you are a psychic!
Having been involved in a long distance relationship for 9 months, I can certainly say it pays to be your own private investigator. Thankfully my father wen he was alive, was loving & insisted I do a background check on anyone I was feeling serious about, & encouraged me to listen to my gut instincts.
After getting a red flag in the form of seeing a passport name that was slightly different than the name he gave the world, I used some nice internet tools, & 2 hours later, came away with 6 email addresses, 3 facebook pages, 1 of which showed his wedding day to a Japanese woman a mere 9 days before he stayed with me for 4 days, & another where he advertised himself as 20 years younger & in Phuket after repeatedly stating he was in Seoul. 3 blogs, 3 dating site identities, & a very interesting site with a thinly veiled pyramid scheme completed the picture of a really foolish man.The sad thing was he was the image of a kind, caring, attentive man who seemed he was falling in love with me; he was charmingly imperfect in some ways, which may have been a superb act, worthy of an Oscar nomination. I may miss that image for a while, but as you said: “it’s not “judgmental” to feel uncomfortable with lies. If anyone has judged anyone, it’s the person who told the lie.”
Having said that, I am going to post some thoughts on some aspects of getting involved with Asians. Allow me to state this does NOT apply to all Asian people, there are many kind & generous, true hearted Asians out there. Call this “ALL ABOUT FACE”.
One thing that is prevalent in Asian society is the concept of “face”.Face is important in Asia in the same way that an American’s Self is important. Both Face and Self are at the core of the persons being – Just as many Westerners get extremely concerned and threatened when their self-respect is compromised, Asian people are very concerned about losing Face, which means losing the respect of others.
One of the most damaging reputations any person can have in a Chinese community is to be called bu gei mianzi, which means one who does not care enough to give Face. Losing Face is much more intense than suffering embarrassment or shame. In extreme cases it can be like losing all the senses, or losing one’s place in life. Complete loss of Face is like full exile – you become a non-person, even to family and close friends. You can’t speak or be spoken to. You can’t be heard or seen. You are just not present.
The act of duplicity is common in Asian society. While there is also plenty of dishonesty and lack of integrity in my own culture, what I am discussing here is the way in which these actions are manifested in places like Bangkok, Seoul, Hong Kong & the rationalization, the inability to accept truth when it conflicts with the issue of face.
Part of the difference stems from Asians see themselves as seamlessly integrated with a wide range of other people, including their schoolmates, co-workers, as well as their social, professional, & friendship networks.
Since Westerners don’t have this same strong sense of integration with an extensive community, the concept of Face is based on a kind of relationship between people that is literally foreign to us.
Part of the problem is that the group-like thinking leads to trying to be all things to all people; there is no clear sense of self identity.
Despite having a strong moral base of Buddhism, they are very lenient in dealing with the breaking of the taboos. Right & wrong is a matter of interpretation; everything is transient, flexible. Never place your trust or faith in the individual to come through, but rather befriend all and you maximize your chances.
Example: If a Thai asks a favor, like borrow some money, it’s really nothing special – you’re just one of many farang they asked. To many Westerners this seems like a breach of trust, as our culture teaches us not to be greedy when asking favors & if we do ask, we must really be in need. In addition, if we say yes, then our reputation is on the line. For me, the Westerner, this situation combines the importance of trust, integrity, & reliability. Failing to follow through on this type of agreement signifies unreliability and lack of trust. Here’s the kicker: It does not have the same connotation in Thai, who will commonly breech this type of agreement. To me, this breech is another form of unscrupulous behavior by a duplicitous individual, but that is not how most Thais will view the situation! It was more important to save face with their daughter & give her the $1,000 they owe you so she can get a nice apartment vs. a dorm room! They have an impressive ability to rationalize actions that seem to Westerners to be in contradiction with their cultural ethics.
Many people I asked in Seoul thought nothing of multiple facebook pages, email addresses, and even differences in names they called themselves. It seemed to be the norm to be duplicitous in any internet activity or dating site or interactions with westerners at first. Just as many men as women did not divulge their true age, & did their best to impress me with their degrees and accolades. However, precious few could show me the substance behind the title, especially if I threw out a query that required a moderate level of knowledge in legal or business areas.
It’s just my opinion, but I think some Asians are very conscious of wanting to be all things to all people, and they spend incredible amounts of time and energy working and hoping that they are never pinned down to prove or manifest their abilities in an area that they have superficially made claim. This is why they have become masters of deception and duplicity, which helps them to avoid embarrassing situations while still allowing them to come off looking good.
Sadly, I don’t want an image of the real thing…I want the real thing. Simple as that.
Please help! When are you seeing the real him? And how much room do you give him?
I met a guy 3 weeks ago. Had a nice first date, and asks me out immediately for the weekend. Then he cancels on a Friday night because he has to work and prepare for the next day work. I am nice about it.
He follows up very early the next week, we arrange Friday date. On Friday, he asks if we can do sat instead because a work thing came up. I say I can’t, and we meet up, but he is exhausted and somewhat out of it. He asks if we can meet up on Sunday, when he can be more with it. I say yes.
Guess what, he then cancels on Sunday AND the following Tuesday because of work, but I still agree to try again on the weekend for Sunday dinner after traveling. This is feeling not great, but I let it go because I get having to work for a busy attourney.
Sunday happens. I am looking forward to it! I keep checking my phone, and get on an airplane at 1 pm, and get off at 3 pm, so for two hours, I am unavailable. I get a text asking if we are on for dinner that night or this week. I enthusiastically respond dinner that night at 3:05. At 4:10 he texts me that he made other plans when he did not hear from me, between 1 and 3 on a Sunday afternoon. This feels like crap. Really bad. I flirtly ask him to still meet thinking it is only 4, but say we can do wed if that doesn’t work.
He responds next day saying we can try wed. He always uses the language of try and should. I respond: No more trying this time ;-). Looking forward to it! ……. He disappears completely, no contact since.
Did I scare him away? How many work cancelations are ok? How many apologies? Was it unreasonable for him to find other plans? Should I not have joked about trying? Why do I feel so aweful? I liked him.
Disappointed,
I think after the second cancellation, I would have let him go. If he can’t work you in for a date, he can’t work you in for a relationship.
I’ll say this gently, please don’t be so available. It’s good for you to have things going on in your life, as well. Please don’t accept last minute invites.
Move on.
I was not that available. Just to be clear – when he originally asked me out for the second date, I was not available the Saturday, which I made clear. When he asked me out the second time, I had also made it clear that I was not available the Saturday. And when he canceled on the Tues, he knew I was out of town for 5 days. So, which I was many things, overly available was not one of them.
oops, so I never accepted a last minute invite. All were several days away.
Disappointed.
Sorry, I misunderstood.
Sounds to me like he already has a girlfriend/wife/significant other — probably his stability. He is looking for some recreational time with you not knowing about his “real” life. Too many cancellations, too much unavailability. They act nice AT FIRST, like bait to reel you in. He is fishing for fun.
I used to give “the benefit of the doubt” because I work a busy schedule, too, and I once had small(er) children and would sometimes have family issues come up at the last minute. But there is a point where you draw the line and protect yourself. with each new change of plans I would become less flexible and less available. You have to decide when it is too much. This I have learned from hard experience: when you make it too easy on them at first, they expect it to always be easy. People MAKE TIME for what they think is important. It’s called prioritizing. If you are not a priority now, what do you think you will be 6 months down the road?
It’s like women believing they can change men for the better AFTER they sleep with them or marry them. Sorry guys, but I always have received the best treatment at the beginning of the relationship, and I am not going to be taken for granted or put into last place of priority ever again. I am just not that into being understanding and accepting anymore. I have found that I am better off doing something I like by myself than counting on someone else for entertainment. I enjoy being with others if others are willing to make time for plans we both want to do. I don’t want to be a drag at an event I don’t like, and I don’t want to drag anyone to an event they don’t want to attend. It is not worth the drama.
Yeah, new rule – 2 cancellation rule. First time, I am nice. Second time – “Finding time seems to be an issue, so how about you contact me when you are move available.”
And thankfully, nothing sexual ever happened.
I love that, Disappointed! and now, lol, you can change your name to something more positive about your own self, like “Not fooled anymore” or something! 😉 You’re doing great, with that cancellation rule and response. You’re not his option; he doesn’t deserve to be your priority. (or even casual acquaintance, in my opinion; who’d want even a casual friend to treat them like that?)
Disappointed,
Get to flushing! No you didn’t do anything wrong, he sounds like he is juggling another relationship. I bet if you look harder, he is hiding something. A man that wants to see you, will see you! They don’t keep cancelling. Even the President has time for his wife, so unless he is the leader of the free world he can make time and plans ahead of time. Leave this one alone.
OMFGawd. Are you seriously trying to hook up with him again??! Flush. Flush. FLUSH! He’s not the only trout in the sea. Say NO to any future attempts he makes…he is toying with you to see how much $hit you allow. You’ve lost his respect.
Flush him and if he asks you out again, say NO. Without any explanation. No thank you. Do not call/text/IM…or whatever him.
And YOU? Where is your head at? You are seriously doubting yourself over HIM??? Why do you give so much value to a man who has no time for you?
Sadly, because of the work cancellations, I assumed he actually wanted to see me. It was not until Sunday that I saw at min, I was not a priority.
Yes, it hurts to think he has lost respect for me. And more importantly, on that Sunday when I tried to get him to come back, I lost respect for myself.
I am glad I got it back when I said “no more…”. I said it nicely, and whatever he chose to do, is all him
Disappointed, you come from such a “less than” stance…why?
You’re “hurt” that you lost his respect…why….what do you know about him that makes his respect so valuable? How has he shown you consistent caring so that losing his respect makes you know you lost something precious?
‘He doesn’t respect me what’s wrong with me?!’ is what you seem to be thinking. My point about his not respecting you was to get you to think ‘He doesn’t respect me, what’s wrong with HIM!”
In the beginning stages of dating, people who want connection will put their best foot forward. You think you are doing that by being “nice” and “understanding”. It’s time to be not so nice – set some boundaries, have some rules about behaviors you will not accept.
I’ve read a pick-up-artist’s blog that states that the best way for a man to get a woman’s interest is to reject her. Seems like your date is practicing all the PUA moves on you and it is working.
Elgie R- Re: “He doesn’t respect me; what’s wrong with HIM!” Good thinking! Before BR, I, too, was asking the “What’s wrong with me” question when I was being disrespected by a guy I had barely met a few weeks prior. “What’s wrong with him” isn’t even a question; it’s an exclamation, as you pointed out. Something must be wrong with him that he’s not acting respectfully and they’ve just met! Even if she did come across as desperate (not saying that’s the case) how does that make her responsible for his behavioral choices? He’s a grownup, responsible for his own behavior.
Disappointed,
You did see the real him. This is who he is: someone who will continuously disappoint you. I don´t know what he does for a living but I´m sure he could´ve fit you in his schedule to at least meet up for a coffee or lunch, even. Or is he piloting an airplane that he is so unavailable? Also, why would he make other plans for sunday if he was going to see you? Sounds like he has other women waiting in line to be disappointed. I´d say don´t worry about it, you did nothing wrong. This pilot is obviously not worth your time.
He was a corporate litigation attorney. I do believe he may have been dating others, but pretty sure he had no significant other. Just flaky and selfish.
Disappointed,
I’ve been a BR reader since July but have never commented and I’m certainly no expert, but your post made me want to reach out to you because I’ve been right where you are.
First off, you didn’t do anything wrong!
You have only known this guy for 3 weeks and he has cancelled on you 5 times and cancelled by blanking you on the 6th. No one is THAT busy! I know you liked him, but he has done you a very big favor. It doesn’t feel like it now, but in the long run you’ll see he did. You’re already feeling awful when you should be in the “oh my gosh, I may have met a great guy” phase. He’s proven he is not that great.
Run! Flush! Opt out!
Please do not contact him and do YOURSELF the favor of not responding to any attempts he may make. He’s lame and not worth you putting yourself through this at this very early stage.
Never fear – I am glad that once he flaked on the weekend plans that I added the “No more trying”. I suppose I did that to force the issue.
I was being accommodating on the supposed work cancelations, but saw within 10 hours of the sunday flake that it was bullhonkey.
Oh, and I never have or will initiate contact. I respond, but when a man is this flaky, I never start to initiate. So, never fear, I will not ever reach out to him. Have not, will not, and blocked his match on the website.
I would seriously drop him if he’s acting like that already. He is not available. It sounds like he is committed to his work as his priority; not you. Plus he doesn’t sound reliable at all. Not a good way to start the relationship. It doesn’t sound like you did anything wrong. The beginning is usually as good as it gets and it already sucks.
In the past when I had a commitment that took an abnormal amount of my time, I was very upfront about it because I didn’t want to scare people away. I let them know it was for a defined period of time and that it wasn’t always going to be in my life to the extent it was.
I have also gone out with a work-a-holic who used work for every excuse – even to get out of his best friend’s wedding when he already booked the travel arrangements. After I got to know him I found out he was EU and used working and drinking to detach. It sounds a lot like you went out with the same guy.
Disappointed, you did not scare him away. He is a prime AC, and probably a player and gamer; at least, that kind of behavior would raise real read flags to me. Constant changing of plans; wtf, did he just get “a better offer” ?
My mantra: Don’t treat someone like a priority if they treat you like their option. He is treating you like an option, and then having the nerve to say it’s your fault for not being available during the minute and a half he needed you to respond to him. Prime AC real estate; flush and run.
Disappointed, I do that when I want to rid of the guy, I keep saying that I am busy so he can get a “message”… Please leave him, he does not deserve you! You will meet someone eventually who will adore and respect you;)
Greetings
Peace and More Self Love. I have never been fond of online dating. I think it is a lazy way out. Whatever happened to old fashion way of meeting people? We have allowed the internet to somehow get us caught up in their WEB of life.
Excellent post. I still feel foolish nearly 10 months out of a 3 year relationship with a liar. I didn’t meet him online – he approached me one night at a concert and I was excited to learn this man worked just a block away from me (in a town 120 miles away from where we met at the concert). Throughout our relationship, he really played on the “connection” we had and the serendipity of finding each other far from home.
He gave me his business card and before I emailed him to propose we meet up, I did my due diligence and looked him up online. The ridiculous part is that I found a small claims court case for someone with his name as defendant but I quickly dismissed it because there was a woman’s name listed as co-defendant. “That can’t be him, this guy is married.” LOL How naive I was.
I completely blocked that out of my mind when we had our first date. Over drinks, he was evasive when I asked him why he moved back to our hometown from across the country where he had gone after college. Then, when he was telling me a story, he stammered “My brother in law, wife, I mean sister” and I had to ask “you’re married!?” “I am in a complicated relationship.” “Are you MARRIED?” “Yes.”
Disturbingly, I spent a couple more hours with him that night drinking and even concluded the evening with a makeout session in my car (shameful) but then emailed him the following day to tell him that I could not see him any more and wishing him the best of luck.
I wish I could say the story ended there, but after the email, he pursued me and despite my better judgment I entered into a relationship with him when he assured me he was getting divorced and that he was only staying with his wife out of guilt and for the kids, they sleep in separate bedrooms blah blah blah. Although he did end up divorcing his wife, I struggled to trust him fully.
The cracks began to show after a few years when I started catching him in other lies. I become suspicious and snooped on his online activities. Sure enough, he had met a young girl (22 years younger than him) at a bar and was seemingly obsessed with viewing her Facebook page. I confronted him and suffered through another 2 months of lies regarding the situation before I finally pulled the plug and moved on.
The worst part is he blamed my “trust issues” for the demise of our relationship. When he started to confess to some of the inarguable lies (ones for which I had proof) he told me “I didn’t want or mean to lie to you, it’s because of your aggressive approach to things.”
Long story short: when someone first shows you who they are, believe them (I think it was Maya Angelou who said this).
THe day will come when someone will blame their lying on YOUR trust issues and you [i mean we] will see so clearly through it, that we will laugh. More humor please!! Its like when you are with kids and they say outrageous things to press your buttons and manipulate you and mostly (not always) you know they are doing it, you call them out, joke with them, or appear serious but are laughing in your mind – unfortunately we dont have that perspective with adults.
I have struggled recently with a dating issue after years of not being interesting in anyone – that relationship will not be [lots of reasons] and it is hurtful. I sometimes want to be with him even though its not a great idea — but one thing I am clear about, I am not taken in by the b.s. anymore. I dont hear the words coming out of someone’s mouth and take it as truth. I take it as rationalization, fear, insecurity etc… we are friends, and I trust him in many other things, and I think he trusts me and we can talk freely about a lot of issues. But I have bullshit radar now, and I dont even call him out on it though he knows when I am skeptical. Oh I think I know – when he says very measured things, things he’s obviously thought about, that aren’t just a response to our conversation, and are somehow directed at me specifically (e.g. about dating, or his ex) – then I usually assume b.s. Its usually an excuse – sometimes only to himself, but an excuse nonetheless and not something to build fantasies or fears around.
This is just a rambling comment to say — good luck to everyone out there. Please be picky picky picky, have high standards, and treat yourself with commitment and kindness. We are not desperate and we have our dignity. IN a recent breakup, I got the b.s. and it wasn’t even coming from a bad place (we dont have to make monsters out of others, they are struggling with their own lives and do what they must to maintain their own sanity) and I decided that I would treat myself and him with kindness – I said nothing, no recriminations, no what-ifs, no but-why-nots, I just hugged him, and left him in the bar. It was nice to not have to have the last word, not to tell him what I thought of him, and nice to not have any regrets about my behavior. What is interesting is that I sat there listening to him, and the options actually went through my head – I can either say something, or I can make a dignified exit. I chose the latter. It felt good [and it doesnt mean I dont feel insecure sad etc, but I dont feel regret and i know i treated myself with respect].
“We don’t have to make monsters out of others, they are struggling with their own lives and do what they must to maintain their own sanity”
A beautiful line, certainly. I wish I could say all of the men I’ve been in relationships with deserved such a kind-hearted response. That’s the kind of person I want to be, but I struggle when presented with the facts of deliberate, repeated attempts to distort reality, attempted defraudation of money, U.S. citizenship, and my good name in marriage.
I exited with the simple question: “Is there something you haven’t told me about yourself, that you haven’t told me before?” Then upon hearing the answer, I simply stated we were through, I knew everything there was to know. I did not scream, yell, or shame.
Thanks for the reminder to stay kind, keep an open heart. The monster in front of you is really just someone who isn’t emotionally educated, and may never be anything but a child or 13 year old.
Suki- I can relate. Last month I went on another date with the guy who brought me here. He did own & apologize for his previous treatment of me & he did back it up with action, knocked himself out to be sure I felt respected & appreciated. It was only a date as he was only in town for a few days but it brought so much healing as he is the one who brought me here. Yet I still see him as non-relationship material and I am very sad because I really like him. Yet some of our values are much different from each other’s and no one can live my values for me; I’m the one to do it.
What makes me the saddest is the possibility that I won’t ever experience authentic love as I’m getting older and dating pool is getting smaller. Ironically, I like getting older in some ways. With maturity comes humility. With humility comes genuine self-confidence. With self-confidence comes better ability to see the bigger picture. Seeing the bigger picture comes stepping outside my comfort zone to make a difference in the world or, at least, my little corner of it. 😉 I want to be in a committed relationship but if I make life, my life, “all about me” I will lose me and the world will miss out on what I have to offer and I’ll miss out on all the good that is being offered because my mind is stuck on “me”. I’m sorry for my philosophical ramblings, in need of a good night’s sleep. 🙂
Wow, Kelly! Yeah, he gaslighted you to the max; saying it was YOUR fault for YOUR “trust issues” cuz he couldn’t admit the truth. And calling you “aggressive” because you committed the crime of finding out the truth? Wow. Sorry you had to spend so much time with him … I’ve done the same, tho, but am now very quick to reach for the toilet handle and flush with impunity. One guy had the nerve to blame his infidelity on me (nice trick!) by saying “Well, you never asked me to stop.” Huh?? I have to ASK a guy to stop shagging others? I have to ASK them to stop being an AC? Uh, not on this planet!
Yup, love your quote: When they show you who they are, believe them. You’re on your way to healing, girl!
Thanks for the support, Nina! My best wishes for you too 🙂
I am having a bit of trouble separating the BF’s version of reality with my own. I keep doubting myself as a result.
The BF is good in a lot of ways… calls me every day, buys small presents, carries things for me when I am holding a lot, etc. But he makes these comments where he swears he’s joking and has a sarcastic sense of humor and how no man is going to be able to measure up to my wishes. Usually they are small but there have been a few about my looks lately.
The most recent of these comments was to say I shouldn’t be wearing the type of outfit I was wearing unless I got a tummy tuck. He’s even offer to pay for part of it in the past.
When I think back to when I first met him I loved talking to him for hours but I noticed when I asked him any questions more than some simple childhood things that most people remember or superficial questions he changes the subject, got defensive, shut down, etc. Asking his age was out first fight. I found out after a lot of googling that it was because he was older than he looked. I also remember him calling my his retirement plan which I always thought was odd but he insisted was a joke.
Umm when he says you need a tummy tuck what do you say? ‘sure darling right after your personality transplant. No, no, really sweetheart I’m just kidding, dont be so sensitive’.
Try that one. I wouldn’t want to be with someone that thinks I need a tummy tuck – you know theres things about me someone might want a bit different – eating habits maybe etc, thats okay, those are habits, and as long as people are respectful and explain what it is about those things that bother them, you should consider some changes because being with someone else requires adjustment [e.g. ‘you always eat health foods so i am starving when i visit’ – thats something to change isn’t it? thats basic respect for each other].
Or ask him why he thinks you need a tummy tuck? Just articulating the reason should make him look like the fool that he is.
Hi Anon,
The BF you are referring to sounds like someone who is chipping away at your self esteem. Please do not take his “jokes” as funny, but as insights into how he really feels about you. I don’t know about you, but I don’t say mean things to people, even jokingly. He’s lied to you already, and now he’s letting you know that you aren’t good enough for him as you are. That’s not acceptable. Please love yourself enough to walk away.
hi Anon, to me these remarks sound as big alarm bells chiming! It’s really not normal, the things he is saying to you. I was involved with a narcissist some time ago, and he emotionally abused me big time. Just to say, the abuse started with remarks like that, always being sarcastic about me and the things I did, when I told him not to do that he would say oh it’s just a joke don’t be so sensitive. In the end, everything was always my fault. And he also had the same habit of not telling me personal things, got offended big time. I thought these are just small things, but it got worse and worse. Please be careful, google ‘narcissist’ or ‘psychopath’ and find out if you recognize any of the behaviour.
Someone telling YOU how you should feel is a big red flag. You have the right to feel hurt by something. But by always saying he’s “joking” he gets to walk away from the insult with no repercussions. Classic sign of emotional unavailability. So is not being able to discuss anything of any depth. Set your boundary NOW, ie, “If you say something else hurtful to me and you disregard it by telling me it’s a joke, then I’m afraid we are not a good match.” If he crosses the boundary, get out.
Anon, what a disrespectful, horrible man. Can you imagine being married to something like that, whose put-down behavior would only increase over time? His snarky little “jokes” are not funny, and if he calls them “just kidding,” then he has a twisted and mean sense of humor, and these comments do not respect you. Tummy tuck?? Tell him yes, you know you need to get rid of 175 pounds of ugly fat — HIM — and throw him out.
Anon,
Calling you his “retirement plan” is gross. Sounds like you will end up being his unpaid nurse until he dies if you stay with him. If he won’t tell you his age, it is very likely he is hiding health problems too.
Either that, or he is after your money. And on top of everything else, he is a known liar. RUN! Now!
I’m not trying to make excuses but I know he has a good savings and is frugal. He has told me if we wind up together he needs to share expenses with someone to retire in this country. He had thought before me he might return to his birth country because it’s cheaper.
I found out his age shortly after but did find it an odd thing to be evasive about. He is older than me so it could put me into a care taking role at some point if there was a future.
I have seen him dial back the joking when I said something about it. Still the idea of saying ‘jokes’ like this in the first place make me feel there is something in there not really being said. I don’t think he understands how his actions impact others though which is concerning. I don’t think he gets the idea of both people’s actions contribute to things. He has trouble saying he’s sorry.
It did bother my self esteem initially the comments he said and I did start to believe them. But now I realize it’s utter rubbish. I am constantly being told by guys how attractive I am. I don’t think surgery is needed by any means. Like many women I wish I could lose those 10 lbs. but I love my body regardless.
I think the thing that is tough for me is I spent 5 years trying to find a guy who could be consistent, call me every day, do nice things for me, etc. All I met were flakes and guys who disappeared. At least he does all of that. But it feels like he has checked out in life and just wants to watch tv/be on the computer all the time. This doesn’t seem healthy to me or enough as I want a more active life.
Anon,
You make a lot of excuses for this guy.
Of course he knows what he is saying. he is not a child. Obviously, it does bother you. or you would not have made numerous posts on his comments, and how they made you feel. You are seeming to back track, just because he has shown some consistency, but you are now excusing some very deliberate and hurtful comments.
I’ll ask again, why is this enough for you?
Anon,
It isn’t easy to find a good guy, that’s true. But this is not a good guy. You are right, he is using his “jokes” as a passive-aggressive way to make you feel bad without him having to show himself for the jerk that he is.
Would he have been able to keep his job if he had spoken to his boss the way he speaks to you? I’m thinking not. Certainly not if I was his boss!
He knows exactly what he is doing, how it makes you feel, and how it’s affecting you. No-one, not ever, would tell someone they needed plastic surgery without meaning it to be hurtful and insulting. And he is supposed to love you? Where’s the love in how he speaks to you?
Run, run, run. You don’t deserve someone as messed up as he is.
Anon, you say “….at least he does all of that.” That’s minimum, the bare bones of what you should get in a relationship. He’s just giving you crumbs; don’t make-believe that these little things are a whole loaf. You deserve a whole loaf. The very fact that you say “…at least…” shows you’re defending this minimalist behavior, and you could be honoring yourself soooo much more, to the level you truly deserve!
Anon, the man you are talking about sounds like he is very unhappy with where HE is in life….maybe he hasn’t achieved as much as he thought by his age… he feels he is “too good” to be struggling financially, whatever his issues….and he is taking out his frustrations on you.
That “retirement plan” joke speaks volumes. He hasn’t prepared himself . He resents the fact that he might need to hold onto you financially and thinks you are somehow not in his league, status-wise, so he snarks at you.
Nina – love the “I can lose 175lbs right NOW” thought. My sentiments exactly.
Dump the loser. By that I mean tell him to change his ways immediately or he will lose you immediately. Sometimes I think you can call a guy out on his bull$#1T and it stops them cold in their behavior. Depending on how self-enlightened they are.
Definitely do not keep accepting it. The “next” time is the LAST time.
Anon
Men say exactly what they mean. A lot of older men out there have NOT thought seriously enough about their futures and are now scrambling to come up with a plan which often does involve living off of someone else. On line and IRL are plumb full of these guys. One of the reasons “trauma guy” was friend zoned was that I found, in his 60s, he’d never had anything other than self employment in businesses too small to support him, has to rent his basement out to pay the bills, has lots of schemes for new businesses that will never make enough to pay his bills, and has been living off an inheritance that is soon to run out. Yep, he was very kind to my dogs, always bringing them treats but that’s cheap compared to supporting oneself. If I ever date again, the dude will need to be ALREADY self supporting, including having his own health care and retirement savings. Vowed to myself after my dad passes that I will never, ever, play mommy/caretaker ever again. I understand that folks get sick, hurt, but that’s a whole different animal from someone choosing not to prepare for their future. No more.
Well, Noquay, I honestly see this as a man-buying opportunity. I am aware there are many 50+ men who did not prepare well for retirement.
The perspicacious female who has her ducks in a row can pick and choose from that available pool of 50+ers who did not think about their financial futures until the future arrived. They aren’t all bad…some of them are just bad with money. My plan is to choose from the best of them.
I don’t judge them harshly for not preparing. I will look them over carefully , and stay away from the pure users, only consider the ones who add to MY life. Maybe I am less judgemental over finances because I have a Dad who is just TERRIBLE with money. But he is helpful with chores, handy with tools, mannerly, still tall and handsome, can be good company. I keep thinking there is a woman who would like having him on her arm.
I know two women who have fixer-upper men. One woman, a coworker, got married to her guy-who-was-nice-but-had-no-assets and I am SURE marriage was a condition for her to stay with him. She loves being married – he is hubby number 5 or six. The other woman I know is a financially comfortable neighbor who is a financial godsend to her tall & handsome older boyfriend. She’s got him in one of her apartments that was recently vacated by a long-time elderly tenant who developed dementia. She arranged for this 50+ boyfriend to buy the dementia victims’ car and a lot of the furnishings. Apparently she is OK with helping him out – and he is very nice to look at…so I guess that is what he is bringing to her table…and who knows what else.
Not your style or desire..I understand that. But I see a potential man-market.
I don’t lie about anything, but I don’t give my real name (which I tell guys right off the bat) for the simple reason that I’m a writer with an unusual first name and a Google search on that alone will bring up every single thing about my life (Diane is not my real name). I tell guys straight up that I will tell them my real name when I feel comfortable, but nothing else I say is false (I always use my real age, real photos, etc) You wouldn’t believe the amount of men who find this problematic. They always say on the first date they completely understand (tho a couple have cancelled before the first because of this), but by the second, they are pressuring me or making comments along the lines of “Well whatever your name is … how do I know what you’re saying now is blah blah blah …” I guess I understand, guys have been burnt too I’m sure and perhaps they think I’m married or something, but I just don’t see why anyone needs to know your real name on a first, second date. Lately I’ve switched back to telling them my real name and if they Google, fine. But as soon as someone pulls some shenaningans, I’ll probably switch back. Sigh. Online dating is the worst.
Diane, I do the same; my online “handle” on dating sites is not my real name. When they deserve to know my real name (like, when I decide it’s okay for us to meet), then I tell them. And believe me, there have been a few times when I was very glad I did that; a few nutso stalkers had one less piece of information about me.
Diane, just tell them in advance that this is not your real name because your real name is too specific. So is mine and I tell men straight away that I won’t disclose my name or place of origin until perhaps later. No problems.
Situation reversed and I have a problem with that. I like to know a man’s name after the first date (first and last) because I need to do my research, lol. I need to find out their actual age, their marital status, their arrest record…can’t find these things out if they refuse to tell me.
And I think it’s weird not to tell, quite frankly. If I met a stranger at a party or at my kid’s school, I would introduce myself.
I continued with a guy who kind of forgot to tell me that his roommate was his ex-girlfriend. When I found out, I was veerrrrry uncomfortable but sstill didn’t end it; I gave him the undeserved benefit of the doubt that they were sleeping in separate bedrooms, as he told me. (NOT!) And who kind of forgot to tell me that he was shagging me the same time he was shagging her. (I talked to her much later, after we both were done with him, and told her that while he was shagging us both, he also probably kind of forgot to mention to her that I have G. Herpes.) Ignored my gut feelings, which I don’t do anymore! That poor sot is probably out there continuing to do the same ole same ole, with multiple women, but I’m no longer in that crazy “ignore-it” world!
Def Pink, I swear you are speaking of a man i know, and if you met him on ok cupid or he lives in FL, RUN. run far.
I also have another ex who uses my children as a ploy for getting women. he refuses to tell the girls he has no custody and the reason why, he voids his court paperwork often by keeping kids away from new gf’s and I am constantly cleaning up after him and letting the women know because, they were LIED to.
my point, I have lived thru this stuff and the article was spot on. Lying in any form is not good. see it as a sign. not staying something for a bit till you feel safe and comfy to tell it all is one thing but batently lying about even something small is a HUGE no no in my book.
Ladies,
I don´t have much to add regarding internet dating but I landed in an unexpected situation through Facebook and I really need to blurt it out to all of you. The thing is, Sweetheart from the Past showed up (we had befriended each other years ago, he was living in another city and this year he moved back to where I live). Now, three days after we met in person again, I got myself a boyfriend.
I´ve done everything I shouldn´t do: believed him when he told me he´s always considered me The One Who Got Away (this was 24 years ago, when we were teens), accepted immediately when he asked me if I wanted to be his gf (one day after we met again), had sex with him the day after that.
While I know he´s quite unstable, has been married twice, no kids, has the knack of seducing whomever he gets obsessed with.
In my defense, he is so charming I feel like a maiden in a historical novel: he told me why he thinks he was an ass when we were together, and how different he´ll be now because he doesn´t want to lose me again. He made me promise to be faithful and told me he wont cheat either. This morning I received a dozen red roses he sent to my home.
I really don´t know what to make of all this and am feeling a bit overwhelmed. I haven´t been in a proper relationship since 2008, have barely had sex in all these years. I got used to the idea of being single until kingdom come and was enjoying my quiet, peaceful life with my kids. Now my teenage love is behaving as if he´s really matured, he is even extremely sweet physically. I even asked him if he was emotionally available and he told me that was such a coincidence because he had previously told some other women he wasn´t EA for a relationship, only for some shagging, but that he knew he was available now. I´m thinking perhaps I´m the one who´s unavailable. I really like him, though.
It seems awfully fast, Lilia. People change over time and if he is mature as you say, he would know that and take the time to get to know who you are now.
From what you have written, he sounds manipulative to me.
Crystal
Yes, yes, yes, I know, too fast, that´s what I told him too but he just said No, I don´t need to think it over, I´m 100% sure I want to be with you, you´re just perfect.
I´m getting pretty nervous now.
Lilia,
How can he believe you to be perfect. HE DOESN’T KNOW YOU!
Lilia, your getting nervous is a sign you need to pay attention to. Trust your nervousness; it’s intuition. Something ain’t right here; NO one knows “100%” after 3 days. And why would he suddenly go 180 degrees from his previous un-EUM shagging to being totally committed? Wonder if he’s ever said those same words to the previous woman, and the previous woman before that? It feels like he is taking advantage of your prior relationship and working it into something that will benefit him. If it’s real, it will take time. But being rushed is a huge, huge red flag.
Lilia,
I was involved with a guy who thought I was ‘perfect’ too. And that’s what he expected me to be, all the time. It was a bad relationship. And it’s not a nice thing to say to someone. Being perfect means not being allowed to be human.
He is being far too pushy. It really does seem like he wants something from you. Time will tell what that is, and I expect it will benefit him at your expense.
“he just wanted me to do what he wanted back then because he couldn´t stand to feel out of control.”–This is really disturbing. Do you have any actual evidence that he is any different now? I have never known or heard of anyone who has stopped being controlling without a serious amount of therapy.
And anyway, why would you want to be with someone you have to watch like a hawk?
Crystal,
I love that “And anyway, why would you want to be with someone you have to watch like a hawk?”
That’s how I was feeling during my epiphany relationship.
Eeek. Where to begin, with all those red flags?
RUN AWAY
RUN AWAY
RUN AWAY
But if you won’t, at the very least, dear Lilia, please please take the following advice:
a) Keep him away from your money and property.
b) Keep him away from your kids.
c) Watch him like a hawk.
d) Stop reading historical romance novels.
e) When he begins to do any of the following:
i) become distant;
ii) start criticising you all the time;
iii) suddenly remembers to tell you that he’s married, but that he’s going to divorce his wife any year now;
iv) disappear for long periods with no explanations;
v) start to managing the relationship via email and texts;
vi) borrow money from you and promise to pay it back, but somehow never do it;
vi) admit he has five children by six different women;
then please remember that the BR community is here for you!!
PS. Lilia, I cared enough even to go and find these old posts:
The Trap of the (Returning) Childhood Sweetheart, Part 1
The Trap of the (Returning) Childhood Sweetheart, Part 2
They make for sobering reading.
Ethelreda
Thanks for the very useful advice and links, jeez I can´t believe how typical this situation is. Had to chuckle at the stop reading historical novels part 🙂
Of course you´re right, I´ll be watching his every move like a hawk. I think the only thing I got going for me is that I´m not at all desperate for a relationship at the moment. Or maybe I am? So far I´ve felt extremely flattered, nostalgic and horny of course. But there are some details I couldn´t stop noticing:
he gave me a detailed account about his divorce, which seemed a bit too much too soon, and then asked a lot of questions about my ex husband, if I still had contact with him (yes of course, we have two kids! jeez), if we ever hooked up after separating? And did I have any other man in my life, or a FWB? This seemed a bit too controlling. I´m figuring he´s used to drama, the one thing I want to avoid most at the moment.
I see that some of the ladies already posted useful links of very good Natalie’s posts.
If I was on your place and really wanted to try, then I would stick to everything written here: https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/dating-is-a-discovery-phase-where-you/
As Crystal, said it’s extremely fast, because you already had sex. Can you slow down, to remove the rose glasses and just to date with him for 3-4 months? If he is mature as you explained, then he will not push you and will also try to re-discover you, because for sure after so many years both of you have changed. The sex will only confuse … because it makes you more attached.
Would you share with the readers, what he explain about this behavior: “… he told me why he thinks he was an ass when we were together …”
Take care.
Mr U
Yes, I know, I shouldn´t have had sex so soon. I´m noticing it´s the cuddling that hooks me though, not so much the act itself. Anyway, I´m sobering down now.
This is how things went in the past: pursued me heavily when I was 18 and quite inexperienced, he was extremely persistent, intelligent and charming. We had a terrible car accident with some friends (car turned on itself in 180 degrees, luckily no one was seriously hurt), after that the romance really began (yes, I know, irresponsible brats).
Anyway, I think the biggest problem was that he pushed too much for sex while I wanted to take it slow. It became a power struggle, and of course I was young enough to be stupid about it – things like, I would sleep over at his house when his parents were away, cuddle up with him and leave him wanting. So you know, there was a lot of childish stupidity going on.
Well, after a lot of this he broke up with me. We did have proper sex about a year afterwards (a one time thing). Then, some years after that he pursued me some more but I just cut him off completely.
Then we lost touch for a long time.
As for his being an ass, he told me now that he should´ve respected my need to take it slow, but that he just wanted me to do what he wanted back then because he couldn´t stand to feel out of control.
Ok, the life is long enough, so people can change. But he also should be aware, that since last 24 years you also may have changed … that’s why I suggested to try with the discovery phase.
Of course it’s up to you, because only you know how you feel and what you need.
Regarding, that “… he should´ve respected my need to take it slow, but that he just wanted me to do what he wanted back then because he couldn´t stand to feel out of control.” As I understand now he has a chance to prove, that he respects your needs, otherwise it will mean, that he never changed.
* I don’t feel so confident in the said above, because it projects, that I am saying to you to give him a chance. Please listen, what the ladies here are telling you.
Lilia, also EA isn’t something you ask someone. its something to be demonstrated through action. You cannot be someone’s gf after a day, its not possible and especially not when you’re anywhere over I’d say 20 years of age. I agree with the earlier comments, keep him away from your finances, your house, your children, and your heart — give a few months at least before you decide whats what.
You already have all the info you need – a man that hasn’t been able to hack married life, but does get married, and is charming, historical romance, red roses, physically sweet etc. Thats nice – I dont see reliable, dependable, engaging, kind, compassionate, good listener, healthy lifestyle, financially stable, nice to my family etc. Those are features of a person that you only learn over time. It seems he has swept you off your feet ‘the one that got away’ – seriously? for 24 years you got away?
Anyway, you know what one does with charming men if one has one’s life under control – enjoy, but dont get attached, and have zero to no expectations. Wait and see. If one doesnt have ones life under control – then reduce contact.
You seem somewhat breathless with anticipation – he has totally wound you up.
I wouldn’t even say he’s manipulative [he could be] but he could also be one of those classic empty-headed words-only romantics, useless at life, breezy narcissists. We dont have to see them as monsters, except – once we let them in our lives, WE have totally enabled them to become monsters in our lives. We bear responsibility for giving them the time of day where they can run riot with our feelings.
I think you know who he is, and what you should do – but denying ourselves the fleeting breathless intimacy of drama is hard to do sometimes.
Wise words!
Thank you for your sensible comment, Suki. I´m thinking I have to take things slow, with no expectation whatsoever and just enjoy the attention. I hope to have wisened up enough at this age not to fall into an opera.
Another friend commented that men seem to have a harder time getting over some relationships simply because they don´t have much contact with their emotions. So that is why they are left with a feeling of What If, and why they contact old flames even years afterwards. Whereas women tend to live their emotions more fully, until they are completely over them. That is how I´m feeling now, this story happened ages ago, and it´s weird to be romantic with him again. I think for me it´s more a nostalgic thing, not the illusion of love everlasting. Oh yes and I´ve been reading too much Jane Austen.
PPS. And this one from 2012:
Are You Too Eager for the FairyTale Ending? The Returning Childhood Sweetheart Revisited.
Lilia.
Future-faking. Fast-forwarding.
Fooling yourself.
Ouch, Elgie
I agree with Elgie. I hope I’m wrong; please continue to keep us posted on this guy … and please look at him through the lenses of reality, not of Jane Austen … am concerned you are giving him a pass with the rationalization that because men are not as much in touch with their emotions (a huge generalization) they might have a harder time getting over their relationships. I just don’t get that; I think men are smarter than that, and we don’t need to give them excuses for any bad behavior. Love is not a “feeling”; it’s an action. You’ll know soon enough if his actions fit his words.
I read the link Ethelreda sent about being Eager for the FairyTale Ending …. does that resonate?
Yes Lilia, the truth does hurt via Elgie’s true words. If an ex came back into my life 24 years later, this person is deemed a complete stranger hence what is it that you want and need from this guy or what is the attraction for the sudden head over heels with this guy particularly 3 days post a 24-year absence and you are now his girlfriend?
Nina & Gina
Thanks for your concern, I will keep you all posted on the developments of this strange interaction. The thing is, I didn´t completely lose touch with him in all these years, because where I live that would be very hard to do; everyone knows everyone or someone who knows that other person, so you always run into each other or hear from them, much like you would do in a very small town.
In fact, when I told my dad about this and that I was concerned because it all went too fast, he said But he already knew you, why would that be too fast? Which is the same thing other friends have told me.
For now it feels like I´m back in the time when we were first together, only that we´re older. The one thing that does bother me most is that he broke up with me very abruptly the other time, so I´m afraid history will repeat itself, especially because this time things began so abruptly. Today I talked things through with my mom, who also knows him and her opinion was very much like what Suki said.
But anyway. Thanks everyone for your input, I will tell you how things go.
I haven’t posted in like, forever, because I stopped dating September 2013. The only way I had been able to meet anyone was on-line, and after about six years of pure nonsense, I gave up. For the first month or two it was like I was an addict. But I had deleted all my on line profiles, cancelled all subscriptions and sweated through it. Looking back I realize that I was a sucker for a good joke, but as it turns out, the joke was on me.
Oh, my word. The lies people tell and act out. The married men, the divorced but not over the ex, the ones who are not employed but claim they are, the ones who claim to have custody, yet the kid is never with them, the ones who claim to be 5’10”, yet somehow we are the same height (5’4″). Too many former masters of the universe who were downsized in 2008, yet can’t/won’t get a job they consider ‘beneath them’. Too many who were obsessed with MY weight/clothing size, yet had guts that made them look like they were about to give birth.
The kickers were the ones who DID have custody of their kids, yet couldn’t EVER talk on the phone. They didn’t want their kids to know they were dating, even after we had been dating 4-5 months. So maybe they weren’t lying to me, but lying to everyone around them that they were dating someone. Crazy thing was, they didn’t think that this standard should apply to me. In other words, *I* should be available to talk to them, date them, whatever, even though *I* have kids at home.
Enough. Funny thing is, I don’t miss dating one bit.
Also, lying could be indicative of another issue–really low self-esteem on the other person’s part. When I was online dating (sorry, never again!) one man started talking to me. He said he graduated from my alma mater, had a nice posed picture of himself from a charity event on his profile, etc. We talked online for a bit and I was getting the impression that our interests and values were different (politics especially) and told him that I didn’t think we had that much in common. He was sweet and kept pushing to talk and meet but as we were talking I discovered several things–first, that he only attended my college for his final semester, so he technically did graduate from it but was bs-ing me on all the conversations about college life. Also, and more importantly, that while he claimed to share many of my same views, he was very active in a church that opposed many, if not most, of them, and finally there was his picture. I understand that we all want the world to see us at our best, but when he told me his last name I Googled him and found a current photo. Did he really think I wouldn’t notice that he was 75 lbs heavier than his profile picture and had a second chin. I ended that one quick!
I have permanently soured on online dating. I was lucky in that the guys I did date were as advertised on their profiles but I work in a public place with computers and have seen guys checking out the online sites. Several of my co-workers have done online dating but all have quit fearing the day a person sees us on his computer screen and then across the room.
Ugh, online dating. I recently met a man online, who on paper seemed great and in person, while I wasn’t overly attracted to him, he did make me laugh and we had endless things to chat about as he is a lawyer and I am in law school. I did notice on the first date that he was drinking quite a bit which caused some concern. At the end of the date we kissed and that was that. He asked me out for a second date and when he came to pick me up he was clearly not ok. He told me he had been at a cookout all day with friends. On the way to our destination he was talking incessantly and not making much sense, he dropped his gum out of his mouth several times and then put it back in his mouth and attempted to make out with my shoulder. Feeling uncomfortable, I asked him to take me home as he was clearly intoxicated and had zero respect for my safety or his own. He then gave me the silent treatment. He dropped me off and 2 days later I received flowers from him apologizing. I thanked him via text for the flowers and never responded to him as my gut reaction was spot on and this guy has a drinking problem and the potential to be emotionally abusive.
I went on another date with a guy who was so far from anything I’ve ever gone out with and I really wasnt interested, but kept texting as kind of dating practice. Eventually I stopped responding and today I get a text from him saying hello and that he thinks I think he isn’t attractive and the date was awful. Im not even sure why I replied but I mentioned going out again mostly out of boredom and he respond with mmmmaybe! WTH
And my drug addict, emotionally and verbally abusive ex is sniffing around after 3 months of no contact saying he has changed and wanting another chance. If only he really could change.
I totally understand what you mean about dating practice. There is a guy who comes into my job and initially looked great–then I found out a few things about him that made me realize we had zero compatibility beliefs-wise. Okay, time to move along, Kitty but for some reason I still want him to ask me out for coffee!…maybe its because I feel like I will, for once, have it together in terms of what I want, maybe its that I like the attention (he always makes a point of coming over to say hi and I see him checking me out and he’s very attractive)…its dumb, I know.
On the flip side, I think this guy and the ones you mentioned want attention and someone in their life (if I had really wanted to go out with the guy I mentioned I would have gone nuts by now–all his and looks-no action but he wants me to know that he’s in the building). We are looking for the right one, they are looking for any one.
Thank you for writing a post on this topic. I had a foray into online dating this summer & discovered within three dates (which I made sure were in a public, well-lit location during day time hours) that the guy in question had lied about where he lived as well as posted under a fake name. He also had multiple cell phone numbers. Yet, he insisted that he “Wanted me to feel to safe around him.” I quickly flushed.
However, I think the internet itself can also lead one into potentially awkward situations. I once was filling out an online profile for work-related purposes, only to find that my city was not listed in their database (I live in a small town in one of the least-populous states in the union.) There was no easy way to add my city to their database system, so I selected the next closest location when filling out the basic information section, but I made sure to explicitly state in the more extended profile that I lived in “City X” and made sure to include the names of my real employers. As a general rule, I try to keep all my profiles, including Facebook, as accurate and up-to-date as possible. I think doing so is a form of common courtesy, if nothing else.
Hi, Freedom. I’ve totally gone the other way on Facebook; interesting to hear your views! For awhile I changed my birthday (and year) for security, but finally deleted my birthday (real or fake) from FB because I was getting all these “oooo, happy birthday!” from people only because they saw it on FB. Heck with that; if people I know and love want to celebrate my birthday with me, we can do that, but thousands of “happy birthday!” hits mean nothing to me if it’s automatic after they see it on my timeline. I put very little personal info about myself on FB.
I won’t use internet dating. Ever. I recently deleted my Facebook; it wasn’t adding to my life, then it started subtracting. It’s a freaky ol’ world when ordinary hum drum people just like ourselves start acting like celebrities of super importance. I’m not much for celebrity culture anyhow. I have been single for near three years after the ex that brought me here; I don’t regret a single second of it. If I wanted a good boyfriend (if I were ready), that opportunity would most likely be there. I’ve been focusing on career and health issues.
To me, there is a sort of inorganic desperation in online dating. We can be single for a lifetime; it’s not some terrible sentence and it actually entails a lot of freedom.
I’m not looking for any ol’ fellow behind a computer screen with a doable dating resume. I want (& deserve) someone as hardy, capable, honest and thoughtful as myself. I won’t settle for less, even if that means a lifetime of being single. I’m okay with that. It’s better to be alone than lie to yourself & settle.
I’m continually fascinated by the different attitudes that people have about FB specifically, in addition to the whole internet dating phenomenon. I have to say that for me, personally, FB actually does add a lot to my life because it allows me to keep in touch with two sets of high school friends (I went to high school in two different states) as well as my college friends (I wound up attending two different colleges as well). I’ve met a lot of diverse, interesting people at different points in my life and I definitely don’t think I would be as “in touch” with most of them if it weren’t for FB. While FB does have its draw backs & some people do develop a type of “celebrity syndrome,” I’ve found it to be a useful form of communication and information sharing. Also, I attended an art school for college with a strong film program, so a lot of my genuine FB friends are budding artists and entertainment professionals, so using FB as a form of marketing makes sense for them.
Freedom,
I really liked reading your perspective. High school was a horrible time for me, so it was too stressful having people I wanted to forget trying to get in touch with me. I am an extreme introvert and only keep a few close friends. I am also a realist so Fb oftentimes made me quite grumpy.
I’m an art student as well and after much thought, I made the choice not to promote/market via social media (it’s not for every artist). I’ve never been more confident in my decision.
I guess people are different and different entities effect them differently. I don’t think Facebook is bad but I question the effects is has on our brains and relationships.
As for internet dating, I have had so many people try and talk me out of my stance, and while I enjoy a good opposing opinion, I still, and probably always will, see no good in online dating.
Peanut, I am so with you on FB and online dating. I don’t miss either. FB for some with the celebrity complex is incessant masturbation. As for dating, I found online extremely demoralizing and unappealing, and will not do it again. At 53, I know my dating pool is beyond shallow, and am prepared to be single the rest of my life than settle for being some old fogey’s nurse/purse. Things could be worse, especially when I look at the sad state of many marriages these days. So many are living lives of quiet desperation.
I think (unless I missed it in the comments) that the biggest omission by a man via online dating is his actual marital status. COUNTLESS MEN have contacted me saying that they are divorced. You meet? Not divorced. Maybe separated. Maybe going through the process. Maybe actually still married!
Another bit of advice ladies…even if the dude is divorced, you need to ask, “And for how long?” these guys need TIME to come back to life. Maybe they never will especially if the ex cheated or he’s getting killed with child support or is just emotionally wrecked because he “failed”. This is not a man available for dating. Maybe a hook up. But be prepared to hear a lot of whining.