While reading yet more tales of They Bailed / Started Pulling The Slow Fade After I Said I Wanted To Take My Time Before Sleeping With Him/Her, it occurred to me that the type of person who goes from super-interested to crickets / unable to be pinned down to a date and time for the next get-together, is someone who carries on as if getting to know someone is a commitment in itself. What the what now?
It’s the idea that they’re so busy and so not wanting to ‘waste’ any ‘unnecessary’ time that they’d rather just speed up the audition for the non-existent relationship part. And it is non-existent because the type of person who will fade out because you’re not ready to start being sexually intimate isn’t truly looking to get to know you and isn’t looking to have a relationship, after all, if it’s that easy to be written off, they were never in it anyway. They also lack patience.
Sex isn’t an automatic precursor to a relationship although some people will dangle the possibility of it so that they can get what they want in the present – Future Faking.
Some people think that they are getting to know you by having sex with you when actually, they’re just having sex. You could never expect to have a stable and mutual relationship with someone who actually thinks that what they know about your character can be gauged from giving you a good ‘seeing to’. I mean seriously, what does a vagina or penis say about someone? In fact they don’t say anything and they’re not good judges of character. Just asked someone who is ‘hooked’ on the sexual connection with somebody who needs a character transplant!
Now I’m not denying that some people hold out the sex to leverage a relationship, but actually, lots of people don’t. When someone is short-sighted enough to lose their dating mojo because you’re not sleeping with them, they’re assuming that you already want a relationship with them. Now you might do, but actually, you’re probably not in a position (excuse the pun) to decide at that point.
Dating is a discovery phase – you might discover on a few more dates that you don’t want to proceed. And you know what? I’m going to say it: I suspect that in some cases it’s the fact that you might get to know them further and not want to proceed why they try to push the sex issue earlier on.
While thinking about this earlier, I started laughing because I realised that it reminded me of when you put down a deposit in order to secure something, like at DFS, a sofa company in the UK that seem to have a permanent ‘half price sale’ which means that the sofas are not actually the full price, or when you put a deposit down and then spread the payments out over a set period.
A lot of people have sex even if they would rather wait a while because they think that they’re ‘putting a deposit’ down on a relationship and even doing a show of faith, like “OK, you want sex and I want to show you that I like you so that you can relax and get to know me” – er, OK. They think that if they don’t put it down now, that someone else will snag this relationship that’s ‘on offer’. The reality is that it’s more like someone will snag the sex that’s on offer.
If you fall into this trap, you likely end up feeling robbed or at the very least a little compromised because for a lot of people, sex either means something or at the very least leaves you feeling a bit vulnerable afterwards. That, and you may also have fallen into the trap of assuming that you were at least assured of a good shot or even a guarantee of a relationship.
Dating is a discovery phase that requires effort and that in itself can act as a ‘deposit’ if and when you decide to progress it to a relationship in the future.
If you don’t put anything in, you don’t get anything out of it. If you put a little in and then carry on like you’re owed, it sours the interaction. I’m not buying all of this time poor bullshit because it says a lot about where we’re headed with dating that some people are so afraid of effort and being vulnerable that they expect a ‘return on investment’ from just going on a few dates.
It’s just a date. Since when did people become so tight with their time and effort?
It’s like “I’m on the clock here! We’ve had three dates and if I don’t get my ‘medicine’, I’m gonna start to feel like I’m wasting my time here!” And don’t fall for the “We’re both grownups” ploy because if that were the case, they’d be allowing things to proceed organically instead of calling last orders for sex.
We’ve got to lose this idea that a relationship is ‘on offer’ and that we’re competing for a part that if we don’t pony up the sexual goods upfront, they’ll choose someone else that will and give away this relationship that in spite of the fact that we may 1) hardly know them or 2) already have seen signs that they’re not for us, we seem to be hankering for.
Nobody should feel, whether it’s from their own pressure or another persons, that they have to secure further interest and dates with sex. That’s frickin outrageous! They’re just not that special!
Hard as it is to hear, don’t go down the convincing and negotiating route. Don’t justify. They’ve let their position be known as have you (I doubt these ones are in the Karmasutra….) and if you not wanting to sleep with them yet is going to scare them off, then let ‘em be scared off. If the subject comes up, keep it light and breezy and move the conversation on. Let the dates be in neutral places and certainly don’t go back to one another’s places on early dates. Be cool, calm and confident and don’t go “Oh OK then” and cough up the sex when you think that they’re fading.
Remember: You’ve done nothing wrong.
*There are people out there who don’t need a sex deposit in order to continue dating you and yes it might take you dating several people before you meet one. Those are the people who at the very least share similar sexual values to you and are a bit more ‘big picture’. Some people will bring up sex but will respect your wishes. It doesn’t mean that you’re going to wind up in a relationship with them but at least on that front they’ve respected your position. For the rest of them, just keep flushing, just keep flushing.
*Note, you will meet more bailers and faders if you’re dating online. Hide of rhino needed and Columbo skills. Basically keep your feelings and imagination in check with someone who you’ve met on a dating site until you’ve had enough ‘real life’ experience of them and steer clear of anything that has a short sign up process / hook-up feel.
Your thoughts?
Updated 29th October: An audio version of this post is now available on Soundcloud.
About the Author:
Natalie Lue is the founder and writer of Baggage Reclaim and author of the books Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl, The Dreamer and the Fantasy Relationship and more. Learn more about her here and you can also follow her on Facebook and Twitter - @baggagereclaim .
Natalie (NML) – who has written 1084 posts on Baggage Reclaim by Natalie Lue.
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This has been such an incredible thread. I’m NOT making him wait for 30-60-90 days or even a year. It’s not about making him wait. (For some reason, this conjures up visions of a salivating dog.) “It” is about establishing a relationship based on respect, trust, and honesty. If a guy simply wants to hop into the sack before we know one another’s last name, how can that progress into a healthy relationship? Not saying it can’t, just sayin it hasn’t happened for me.
I’m thinking we all, males and females, gotta get over this third date thingy. Assuming we are perfect strangers or even work colleagues, after three dates, assuming each date lasts three hours, we are in a total of nine hours. That’s nine hours. How on god’s green earth are we supposed to ‘know’ one another after nine hours? After all, many of us work at least nine hours a day. The math doesn’t add up. It just can’t be about having sex after meeting up for nine hours. So yeah, some perfect stranger I’ve met online and had three dates with just isn’t going to get me to drop my knickers because my long term goal is a committed, healthy relationship based on respect, love and care. I’m not clairvoyant enough to determine that after nine hours. Thus, I’m not making him “wait” for sex for some predetermined time. Nor am I withholding the goods. That is a game. Sex irrelevant. Sex is not monetary. Sexual intimacy is not a game. Topline: For me, It’s about a relationship, not sex. Sex comes after the relationship.
Couldn’t have said it better myself, Runnergirl.
Hey Revolution,
I’m glad you didn’t pull the slow fade or bail…he…he…he!
runner,
Aww, are you SURE you are hetero? lol. I was thinking of going for you, too – but Revs beat me to it. Fearless pulled a *fast* fade on me – well, she didn’t even respond. I’m crushed!
Where is Fearless these days. I miss her too. Maybe she is so “busy” with a new beau she’s bailed on us! Gregarious Wolf’s post really got to me for some reason. His comment: “I’m not speaking of the physical act only, but of emotional closeness and a desire in include someone in your life” made me realize we are all on the same team. That’s what I want. His comment and Pink Panther’s comment about her encounters with same sexed partners, makes it even more clear, we are all on the same team whether it is same sex, opposite sex or something else.
Trust me Learner and Revs, you aren’t the first to pose that question. You sure are amazing, and totally awesome ladies. I’m batting for our team. (BTW, I suck at the plate, only way I get on first is to beat the throw to first. But I play a mean second, that is, if the guy doesn’t take me out.)
Let’s all play on the same team. Love you Learner and Revs. Where is our Fearless? Some day we have to meet! What a weekend that would be…
We’d rock the house for sure!
aww Runner, love you too! You have such a wonderful way of making people feel included, listened to, and validated. I am so reassured to hear that even YOU had exMM stories that later had you shaking your head at your own behaviour. And yes, a BR in-person meeting would be awesome – rocking the house for sure! xo
Hahaha!!! No way, Runnergirl. And hey, I’d even wave my “sex by the 3rd date” rule for you….
runnergirl – love your no-game-playing, relationship-first viewpoint!
Runnergirl,
you are a confident reasonable emotionally available woman with values. Brilliant !
GW, “emotional closeness and a desire to include someone in your life”
Thats the bottom line of what a relationship should be based on.
Sometimes they just won`t do it, sometimes they will give you some of it, on their terms only (crumbs), and sometimes they really want to but are unable to deliver the goods because they have issues that they are not aware of /willing to work on – that`s when it`s most confusing because there are so many mixed messages. None of the above is good enough. I never had a full monty, what a sad realisation, and I thought the reason was that I was not good enough. Get Natalies book, I think you`ll find your answers.
I started dating a friend of the family in October last year. He’s divorced; lives with his mum and has his teenage son at the weekends & school holidays. Four/five weeks in, I had sex with him & things got sporadic after I had sex with him. Although he initiated the contact, he hardly ever organised any more dates & whenever I tried to suggest a date, he always said that he was skint. He’s a mature student at College & on benefits. He always went on about how much he thought about me in our online chat sesions. That was his favourite form of communication, but we only saw each other 3 times throughout the winter. Then when we met up again at the beginning of March, I had a chat with him & asked him what was happening with us cos all I was getting from him was mixed signals & that this was not going anywhere. He said that he was not misleading me, he was not cheating on me, it was just that he had a lot of work to do from the College & had his head buried in his books & was skint. He stepped up & our dates became more frequent again & at the beginning of April he said that we had cemented our relationship & I believed it. Soon after that we booked to go away a couple of nights on the Mayday bank holiday weekend. We had sex on the first night & then on the second night he was not up for it. He said he was not feeling well. I started to sense that the mood was changing, he was becoming distant. I felt that I have been used & that him not feeling well was just an excuse not to have sex with me. That was the last time I saw him. He maintained contact for 4 weeks after we came back, but that was just him fading away on me cos he organised dates that he then cancelled. When I tried to organise dates to finish with him face to face, he made some excuse or other that he couldn’t make it. He eventually disappeared & went dark on me on the Saturday of the Jubilee bank holiday weekend. I tried to phone him to see if the date was still on as he reneged on the previous 2 dates, but would not pick up the phone to me. That’s when I realised he disappeared on me. I then tried to phone a couple of weeks later to try to get some answers & closure, still no answer. So I eventually sent him a facebook message telling him how disrespectful it was of him to disappear on me. He responded a few days later that he was depressed & needed to be alone. I then started NC. 3 days after his reply, he blocked me on FB. I was strung along & misled into thinking our relationship was cemented. I realised he only said that to get sex from me on our 2nd night of the weekend away. Something else I’ve learnt from this is it’s not always better the devil you know. I have now been doing NC for 3 & a half months.
Maria,
He was a real jerk for not being honest with you, but if you read through your post, you will see that his action/inaction screamed his lack of interest. I have been in the same boat, and choose to listen lies, when the truth was in his actions all along.
Many times when I’ve told a guy that I didn’t want to rush into sex until we got to know each other, they’ve come back with having sex is PART of getting to know each other. Not only have I heard this argument from different guys trying to get in my pants, but also from female friends. Ironically, “knowing” someone in the biblical sense refers to sex. Does this argument have any merit, or is this another Jedi mind trick guys use to get us to feel better about sleeping with them sooner than rather than later? Thoughts????
Phoenix,
It may be that getting to know somebody includes sex for some people, male and female. However, you get to decide what works for you because they are your boundaries. I think that has been one of my many take-aways from reading Nat’s books and BR, I get to decide what works for ME. Based on my past relationship history, I’ve always dropped my knickers straight away (then usually married them), then discovered there were major problems. Sex early on doesn’t work for me. PERIOD. I’m like a dog with a bone (pardon the pun) once sex enters the pic and I won’t give up no matter how awful the bone is (double pardon the pun). BTW, it may work for your female friends (I’m betting it doesn’t) and it may work for the guys (who knows) but you get to figure out what works for YOU! What are YOUR boundaries? What are YOUR sexual values? You get to decide!
Runnergirl, you hit the nail square on the head. It is about how we decide to handle our own bodies. and self respect. End of. Not about making him wait to earn his respect. We need to show up with it.
You nailed it better Selkie. It boils down to self-respect and showing up every where, including dates, with my self-respect/self-esteem in tow.
Back to Phoenix, why are you arguing with girl friends or guys? Self-respect, self-esteem, your boundaries, and your values aren’t negotiable.
I do think it’s part of getting to know someone but my opinion should be irrelevant to you. What do you need to do to feel good about the progression of a relationship and respect your own boundaries?
This post made me think about how I want to progress with someone beyond the important issues now. Because I’m older, I’ve decided to consider whether I really want to have sex with some a bit more than the last time I was dating. I will definitely continue to kiss early on, though, because compatibility in that area is of critical, non-negotiable importance to me. I’ve been around the block enough to know that you can’t really teach someone something as instinctual as kissing. I know that “bad” (not to my preference) kissing makes me want to gag and is a major turn-off so it is an early barometer for progression – for me.
Physical desire and compatibility isn’t some dirty afterthought or bargaining chip. It is a requirement in a healthy romantic relationship for many people – both men and women.
I have never been particularly appearance oriented so I don’t put much stock in that as long as there’s attraction. I’m not just looking for a platonic best friend, though!
Fx
The boyfriend and I kiss better than we used to. I hadn’t kissed in five years. He hadn’t in two. Sometimes it can be learned. Or re learned.
Don’t force it but it would be a shame to pass up on a possible good thing because of something that could be improved. It was never bad though, so i hear you.
Same with sex. I understand that a person might be wary of waiting “too long”. What if I wait, fall in love and sex turns out to be gross? But I think if two people love each other, are flexible and adaptable, willing to learn and listen even mediocre sex can be improved.
When I think back to what I thought was great sex with the playa I realise now it was not as great as I thought it was. I was mainly caught up in the high of winning him over than in how much pleasure I was getting. And after not very long, it was all about him anyway.
But, yeah, i do know the man is potent, you can find that out by just kissing!
All excuses, If sex made things work and made people know eachother then why are so many of us that had sex end up alone again anyhow?.. I can be 100% comiitted with NO sex whatsoever if I like someone enough for who they are.. So there you go.
You can have the best sex with the most messup up and confussed person.
Also had it thrown in my face – like during pregnancy, that sex was not love and I was stupid for going along with it.
No, getting to know eachother takes a lot of honesty and communication, from both.. and it’s the “BOTH” part that is just so hard to come by.
Sex should be a nice bonus, I understand having needs but if I can ignore my own for many many years at a time to avoid more BS in my life, Then they can wait to show me they have more than BS to offer.. Again maybe hard or maybe even impossible to come by for me, But after this long it would be like taking a diamond and tossing it in the garbage anymore, and you know what? I worked hard to make this a diamond and had to do it all by myself, sex did not make it, nobody’s scraps made it either… I made it, so it’s my job to protect it now.
Gina,
I absolutely agree with your opinion about sharing expensive of a date, when the woman invites the man and the activity or place she has chosen is upscale. It can get quite expensive. Plus, as you said it does alleviate his feeling that he is putting out all this expensive and should get a return on his investment. I’m independent and cannot deal with even a hint of possible obligation. When I go on a date, which is very rare,I want to do it in style, so it most likely won’t be cheap. I’m not a picnic, movies, bowling type of person. I don’t mind chipping in a little when it’s my choice what we decide to do. Otherwise, if it’s his choice, I would expect it would be within his means and the expense is on him.
Maria,
I hope for your sake you’ve learned the lesson not to be so persistent when a guy is acting flaky. One questionable excuse may be legitimate but when it’s consecutively, LET IT GO. No need to try to confront him on his behavior. He’s not that special and all you’re doing is demeaning yourself by trying desperately to hang on.
I just want to share this because I’ve shared other parts of my journey on here before.
Recently, I experienced two extremes of online dating – one very positive and one very negative. It’s somewhat related to this post.
I had recently created an online dating profile on a site I had used in the past. It was a brand new profile, rid of all the old messages, the old exs, the old dates produced from that site. I felt more confident and aware of my boundaries and several times opted out of potential dates with people because there were clear red flags.
I recently exchanged messages with someone who seemed to be kind, open, honest, and decent. Also, I am attracted to him which is always a big nice bonus. Of course, still waiting for the behavior and meeting with him to support/slowly learn more about him – yes, slowly, slowly, slowly – I am approaching this way better than I ever approached it before, because I am not going to go out on a limb again and invest/engage in intimacy/fast-forward without some hard evidence/proof/behavior. So I am finally coming to terms with NOT engaging/believing in the future faking or skipping 10 essential steps in the process. I really want to get to know him slowly and surely and take my time in the discovery phase. I will keep you guys updated on how that goes. Thank you, Natalie!
But, I do have to mention the negative aspect of online dating. It may be relatively anonymous but the past can still follow you – I also recently received a message from an ex on the site who’s still on there (horrible, abusive person who was overweight himself and constantly criticized my weight—which was average by the way, and constantly abused me verbally) telling me that he’s “glad to see you finally got laid.” I believe this was a way of trying to put me down and make me think I was less desirable than I actually am – thankfully, I know I am a helluva lot more desirable than he is, and way more attractive/appealing. Secondly, I believe this was a strike against me not sleeping with him (hard to do when there’s little physical chemistry and so much abuse).
I responded, “Yes, I am glad to see you obviously haven’t. Lame ?” and promptly blocked him. Again, I can’t stress enough how much garbage there is out in the world. But it really opened my eyes to see that when I had low self-esteem, I was constantly trying to embrace, love, and gain validation from garbage (EUM’s, abusers, narcissistic harem owners, prime ACs) instead of kicking it aside and throwing it away where it belonged. I take full responsibility for chasing garbage and it feels so great to have that confirmation that my initial gut instincts were right and that this past relationship was over!! P.S. this is not the ex that I have been talking about in my comments, this is a more toxic and gross ex—I am thankful that my last ex did not treat me as badly and would never say something immature like that.
Scary part is, this guy is a licensed social worker and is going to be almost 30 in a few years, and he has the nerve to act like that and be extremely childish. Just in time for Halloween, it’s a frightening prospect to recognize how many terrible people are operating in this world under the guise of helpers/healers, when they really are just the worst of charlatans.
In retrospect, I realize how much garbage I put up with in the past and how many negative people I attracted because of my low self-esteem, and consequently low self-respect. Seriously, I keep thinking back to this person and realizing – WHAT ON EARTH WAS I THINKING? I wasn’t. I was simply acting on my desperation. Not only was I not physically attracted to this guy, I allowed him to take a toll on my self-esteem and belittle me because of his own insecurities. Even when I finally broke up with him, I felt the need to second-guess myself. I didn’t realize how worthy and beautiful I was inside and out. But now I am making progress in recognizing both. So thanks BR, BR readers and of course Natalie for giving me that essential toolkit and helping me use it!!
Hi Courtney,
I agree with you 100% and congratulations. A little bit of self-esteem/self-respect goes a long way. I have to work in the same building with one of my gross, abusive, overweight, and aging badly ex’s and every time I see him, I cringe and think the same thing WHAT WAS I THINKING? BTW, with regards to the subject matter of this post, I did rush into sex with him and then discovered he was an abusive AC. By that point, my brain too muddled to see the forest through the trees. It is like Nat says, he rushed into sex so when I found it I didn’t want to proceed, it felt like it was too late.
Good luck with the online date. Remember, it’s just a date. I’ve been interested (can’t really say attracted) in online guys on the phone but the guy that showed up was different.
And good for you for blocking the exAC. I wouldn’t have responded. His comment was awful.
Natalie’s toolkit is the best and all the tools actually do work.
My best to you.
Natalie,
“It’s the idea that they’re so busy and so not wanting to ‘waste’ any ‘unnecessary’ time that they’d rather just speed up the audition for the non-existent relationship part.”
Sheesh, in the early days with the exMM, when I had stopped being physical with him while he “decided” about his marriage, he agreed to go shopping with me as “friends”. We also went for a walk in the cold weather, and I mentioned I would like to go somewhere warm. I meant to go get a cup of tea or something, but he responded” Oh, that’s a great idea! if I know you wanted to go get a room, we wouldn’t have wasted time shopping.” Wow. He totally had his own agenda. I didn’t end up “getting a room” with him for several months after that, but staying “with” him after the comment he made was crazy! How could I deny, minimize, rationalize all the many, many red flags he waved in my face? It is slowly sinking in. He wanted me for sex. he wanted me for sex. Well, guess what? I don’t want him for *Anything* *Ever* *Again*!!!
Yeah Learner when it starts to sink in, it was frightening how many red flags I rationalized, minimized, and denied. You want a warm cup of tea; he wants to get laid and wouldn’t have wasted time shopping! So sorry but spot on. It’s so amazing how obvious they were in BR retrospect. I have a similar story. The night the exMM asked if I “was in”, we went for drinks, late, after a long meeting. I agreed to being “in”, engaged in a long, wonderful, knee trembling kiss, and said goodbye. After the affair started, he said he couldn’t figure out why I didn’t invite him back to my house that night, which was around the corner. Duh. He was thinking why didn’t he get sex that night. I was thinking what a wonderful “relationship” we were going to have!
Good for you for not “getting a room”. Did you at least get a warm of tea?
Oh and I got another. It was in the early stages of the affair before we had sex. He invited me to attend a work function with him. It was one that I could have skipped but I agreed to go with HIM. It was an all day event with a lunch break. At lunch, I suggested we go to a nice restaurant nearby and we did. After the affair started, he said he wondered why I didn’t invite him to my place for “lunch”. Since my place was a 30 min drive from the meeting place and a 30 min drive back and we only had 60 mins for lunch, it never, ever even crossed my mind. Duh, Runner, it crossed his mind. I wasn’t holding out or with-holding the goods, I was completely oblivious. Finally, he got me to bed when he called, asked me to dinner and, of course, I agreed. I thought this was a relationship. He suggested a restaurant near my place (we lived 30 mins apart) and he’d pick me up. By the end of dinner my pants were charmed off and since he picked me up at my place, well you know the rest! (Now that’s why I don’t do your place or mine.) Our favorite joke was “you are a hard woman to get to bed”. I was. Not because I had boundaries or sexual values, it was because I was 100% oblivious. Plus, it never dawned on me that he was thinking sex. I was too busy in fantasy land to be bothered with reality!
Runner – the last word I would use to describe you would be “oblivious!”
To answer your question – yeah, I got the cup of tea on that particular day. But I am ashamed to tell you that later “dates” DID involve getting a room. The first was one he later confessed he had attended with the OOW. Oh Jeez, the more I see about the exMM in writing, the more sickened I become. Fantasy land sure is the land of oblivion regarding the bloody obvious!
A word about online dating — I have met both online – men who want a relationship and those who don’t. But be very cautious if you go that route. These guys can say anything — even that they are looking for long term and love but they are lying. I think it’s a breeding ground for the players and cheating husbands. There is a facebook page that I came across where women post messages they get from douche bags from online dating sites. It’s disgusting and disturbing. Unfortunately, I saw a message from a married man I happen to know on there trying to pick up a woman. I know it was him because it was the same picture he has on his band web site.
I know this happens but it’s still shocking to see someone caught in the act.
One other thing I want to mention — I have been thinking and it seems to me that a majority of men are just simple creatures who are weak in many ways and are just living out their caveman tendencies. They are MEN. Not only are many not that special, but they are NOT THAT evolved. Maybe we have to just accept this fact. Women are strong, complex, evolved creatures. We have the strength to withstand a lot of hardship, child birth, heart ache, and provide emotional strength and nurturing etc. I for one am not expecting from men what I expect from my women friends.
Jule,
Don’t forget there are a large number of female ACs. This is not exclusive to males. Also, the men who are unavailable (married and involved in relationships) are engaged with women who are aware – most of the time – of their relationship status. The problem affects both sexes and no one is excluded.
Please do not demonize all men, or I can guarantee, you will continue to choose jerks.
No your caving into the idea that thay are like animals.. There are differences naturally, But I think it’s a “selfish” thing not a man /animal thing what many here are dealing with, We could hanlde less words of love if we were getting “Actions” of love.
Many of us would even preffer that after getting so many that were all “talk” and no “action”.
This bamboo / monkey we cannot help ourselves act ius even an irritation to men that don’t use that excuse.
I do not expect a man to crochet, but why so many think I should get into things like race boats or drag racing?
” It’s a selfish thing that is why.”
Again I do not expect them to be like women – But I would deifinantly most definantly expect a freinship, becasue if that is NOT there your not going to have a “Foundation” – looks will fade, sex will dercrease ect ect.. and if I am going to grow old with someone he better be a freind otherwise even with him your going to end up alone.
I think darn well expect him to pull his weight, and to have a “thinking” brain as well.
No he may not give birth, may not cry as often as me – But if he aint at all feeling enough to love with actions, he can take his ape / gorilla excuse arese right to the zoo or pound.
Runner girl,
Thanks for your replies. I like how you said we’re all on the same team. There may be some differences in how men and women approach attraction and sex, but as far as attachment and intimacy are concerned people want the same things. Healthy people want someone who is available and can form secure attachments.
I’ve since found out unavailable girl may suffer from trauma as a consequence of sexual abuse. It didn’t stop her from sleeping with her last boyfriend, who I happen to know by complete coincidence. I had all but broken up with her this weekend when she confided in me about abuse during her childhood.
This is a whole new world for me. I am not sure how to cope. She tells me that she likes to masturbate but feels uncomfortable when being touched. I am thinking now this woman needs some serious counseling and therapy. She said it was a leap of faith for her to even confide in me. That may represent some measure of trust she has for me, but doesn’t help me much otherwise.
I hate to sound too transactional, but I feel if she can’t reciprocate love what do I get out of this relationship?
Wolf,
I think she is using you as an emotional airbag she is clearly aware of your feelings for her and uses them to her advantage. Now she wants to keep you around by telling you her issues.
You won’t get much out of the relationship you have feelings towards her and she doesn’t towards you not in the way you want her to anyway so the more you hang in there the more painful it will be.
Her issues are hers and maybe you can point her towards some help but you cannot fix her.
Thank you. I think you may be right.
Just thought I’d share with you my experiences of men that I’ve met since my marriage broke down.
Man 1) Within two months of my traumatic marriage breakdown this man who I’d known since childhood came over all heavy with endearments and tried to throw his money around to “rescue me”. I pushed back as my red alert gut instincts kicked in and he then got angry with me and was closed out as a friend. What I saw was someone who was trying to control me in a vulnerable state and my life from half way around the world. 18 months later be popped back up phoneing out of the blue as these Ac do and couldn’t understand why I was in a bad place with my marriage breakdown. Yes really what a fuckwit. So I e-mailed him and was cold and distant then blocked him and he has thankfully gone.
Man 2) Net him through work. Couldn’t arrange a date left it me. As this was my first “date” I wasn’t sure why it was left to me. Anyway thanks to Natalie’s site the red flags continued and I never let anything progress. Turned out he was getting sex on tap from his ex wife 6 years after their divorce and each of them was manipulative and controlling of the other’s life. he wanted to control and even told me my circumstances were complicated, yes WTF? He didn’t like text but used it as the primary means of communication. Yep he got flushed as he blew hot and cold and once I knew the score with him and his ex I was like yuk.
Man 3) Met through a social group. We had a lot in common and he asked me out by e-mail which I thought odd but this was only my second date. He then told me it wasn’t a date so we kept friends as we often did the same events in this group. He relied on text and when asked why told me he could have a 3 way conversation, eat and watch TV at the same time. Things he was saying weren’t matched by his actions. Then he went off radar cancelling his membership of this group and letting people down with a social planned out of this group. I flushed after telling him exactly why by text since this was his preferred method of communication.
Man 4) A married ex-colleague who had pursued me for 20 years with was a EU workaholic. He had been blown out as he was off limits a few times but he kept coming back. Popped back up again in the summer after nearly dying and declared undying love for me. Then……. nothing. He indicated that he would always love me no matter what our age and would make a pass at me. He was told in no uncertain terms that I wasn’t some cheap tart to be picked up in a whim and I am now guessing that the declaration whilst heartfelt was an attempt to manipulate me. With hindsight I can see that his “friendship” centred on pressurising me at vulnerable times in my life to have sex but I held strong.
I am now left wondering if there are any decent men out there but am happy enough single as I don’t have the bull shit and emotional clap trap to deal with. What I have learned with these men is to trust my instincts and see red flags. I have now decided that before I embark on a relationship I want to be friends with a man first and see if he is consistent over time. I also have a 90 day rule for sex. They take it or leave it as far as I am concerned but no-one busts my boundaries now male or female.
Yep. If I really liked someone, I would wait, wait, wait. But this is key: the waiting should be tough. If it’s not tough to wait, YOU don’t truly like the guy, and are caught up in just trying to get approval, and whether HE likes you. Who cares, if you don’t like him?
I do disagree with the idea that you can’t learn anything about someone when you sleep with them, though. Last night I slept with a guy I really didn’t like too much that I have been kinda dating for a short time. I knew I didn’t like him, I knew he only *thought* he liked me (because he has made no effort to get to know me, and seems oblivious to the fact that we’re total opposites) … it was terrible, and I don’t mean It. “It” was decent. But god was he a dick afterward. I don’t mean he was horribly unkind, he was just … ugh. Yuck. He doesn’t like me, he knows it, I know it, I know I don’t like him … but be decent. I admit I was a touch on the fence about him, wondering if I was being shallow for the reasons I didn’t like him (no, it was nothing to do with looks), but now I know. Nope. I was spot on. And how.
I think the key is if you’re going to sleep with someone and are not doing so as part of a true, growing relationship, you’d better be honest that you aren’t downplaying your own hopes/expectations – don’t set yourself up for hurt.
Wow! First, Natalie this was a great post. Secondly, the responses/topics brought up was very insightful. Thirdly, my life has been extremely calm since I start acting on the “tell” signs presented by men/women/family members.
Let me just add my comments, there are times that I wonder whether I have “tell” signs that make people chance their arm with me. The way that these situtions play out for me is that I let the dispectful behavior continue for a while, these days, the disrespectful time frame is very short. But once I feel that I have had enough, then a complete and total bitch emerges. In my mind, Initially, i really don’t want to go there. Because once I do, then I am very angry say some choice words and then I make the decision to cut them off. With family, I still don’t voice my dissatisfaction, I just distance myself from them. Side point, no matter what anybody says or does to me, my mother will not Agree with me or show any outrage, like how could they say or do that to you. Up until maybe a few months ago, I was still expecting validation/nurturing from my mother. I am just beginning to accept, as painful as it is, that she is/was incapable of providing that to me. Her idea of showing love is very limited. I now see the importance of forgiving my mother do that I can finally move on…..anyway
also, I find that women in my circle like to give belittling comments under the disguise of “Im just jokin”. I have been told that I am too sensitive. I am not buying that bull! Grown people know exactly what they are doing/saying but they are acting out their own insecurities that I for whatever reason bring out. Unfortunately, I believe a lot of it is jealousy…I certainly don’t mean it in a conceit way, in fact, I have confidence issues. But from the outside I look like I have it going on.
So, I don’t believe we should give a lot of time trying to figure out whether it is intentional. Next thing you you are rationalizing and excusing bad behavior.
Right now I have become hyper alert to bad behavior from everybody. There is slight concern because I do not want to become an angry, bitter, quick to anger person. However, having put up with soooo much crap, this is my path for right now. I’m thinking that once my self esteem improves, I will display “fewer tell signs” and I can cut back on the angry woman role. At least I hope so, because I feel that I am becoming a different person.