You meet someone, they ask you out. You enjoy yourself, you continue talking and spending time together. The attraction and desire for a relationship build as the dates continue. Unfortunately, in spite of chemistry, shared interests, direct and indirect references to the future, etc., it becomes apparent that they’re not over their ex. Maybe they tell you, or it becomes clear through their actions.
Despite the new evidence that scuppers your ‘case’ for a relationship, they tell you they like you a lot and that they want to be friends, even if you don’t sleep together. Or they try to get the fringe benefits without the relationship.
Here’s what empathy looks like in this situation:
You’d put yourself in their shoes and immediately recognise that after a breakup, it’s a confusing and painful time where you go through a plethora of emotions.
Basically, it’s time to get out of the way.
You may even recognise that when you’re keen to avoid the hurt, it can feel oh so tempting to attach yourself to someone in the hope that they’ll distract, numb, or even excite.
What you also know, however, that they don’t do, is fix your breakup for you.
You’d recognise that not being over your ex, in whatever guise it takes, means still emotionally tied, whether it’s positively or negatively. It means that you might still be in touch with them. Perhaps a reunion is still under negotiation, or much effort is being expended on avoiding making contact or swatting off their efforts.
You know that a breakup involves thoughts popping into your head when you least expect them that you may feel like you have no control over. It means crying unexpectedly or feeling a sudden surge of anger or a deep wave of sadness.
Being empathetic means recognising that they’re hurting but may be finding it hard to deal with.
There may have been no ill intention and that they were and are interested in you, it’s just they overestimated how ‘ready’ they are for a relationship.
They thought they could handle this and didn’t want to miss out. Sure, you’ve met people when you’re not in the right place and been afraid of letting them go in case they get snapped up by someone else.
It’s recognising the futility of this three-in-an-emotional-bed-situation and wanting no part of it.
Even though you are sympathetic, empathetic and compassionate, confining wouldn’t be good for them, and it sure as hell wouldn’t be good for you. Of course, they’re going to want to spend time and hold on to you (Who wouldn’t?!), but you have to do what they’re unable to do for themselves or you. It’s the right and respectful thing, because you don’t do second best.
Here’s what not empathising and overempathy look like:
You’d put yourself in their shoes and immediately recognise your pain and your experiences…even if their pain comes from a different place and they’ve in fact had entirely different experiences. You’d recognise that it’s a confusing and painful time, but reason that they’re ‘confused’. The rationale is that if you give them enough time, they’ll forget their ex. You recognise that it’s an emotional rollercoaster, but you don’t trust your own feelings and judgement, so maybe they have it wrong too.
You may reason that you’ve often dated or even had relationships when you were still emotionally invested in an ex.
You believe that the love you had to give was still a lot, even if you were divvying it up on the quiet. To be clear, it wasn’t. You’re overvaluing what you bring to the table.
Perhaps you believe that it’s the job of the next person you date if they’re that fabulous, to make you forget about your ex. By the same token, if you snatch the hot seat, then you’re validated as being ‘good enough’. Then you’ll think “What? They’re telling me that they’re not over their ex! We were having such a great time, but I obviously wasn’t good enough to make them forget about them. I feel so rejected! I just need some more time to show them!”
While someone not being over their ex means press your eject button, you might recognise this, you might not.
You’d fear being ‘impatient’ and that after allowing yourself to be a Buffer, once they’d recovered in your Rebound Hospital, they’d skip on out of there and be an available, over-their-ex partner with a different person. This then becomes you seeing potential and believing that they want you to be ‘patient’.
Then you’d think to yourself that if someone was willing to love, care, and shag you even though you were hurting and not ready for a relationship, that you’d be so grateful when you were feeling better, that you’d give them a relationship. And it would be one full of the potential you envision as a reward.
It’s either that they said they’re not over their ex, so you decide that their actions say otherwise, or you see that they aren’t, but focus on their words. Either way, nothing matches.
You’d say stuff like “Well if I wasn’t over my ex, I’d leave” or “If I wasn’t over my ex, I wouldn’t get involved with someone else”. Then you’d reason that they haven’t left and that they did get involved with you, so they must be over their ex. Then you’d wonder if they were talking out of their bum as a gentle way of letting you know that you’re not ‘good enough’.
You’d put yourself in their shoes and remember the good times you’ve had, even if they’re brief. Perhaps you’d recall the potential you’ve seen… and then see it for the both of you. You’d imagine that they don’t want to make the ‘wrong’ decision, so decide to help them avoid making any decision.
Sometimes, you get empathy mixed up with sympathy, which is feeling pity for someone’s misfortune. And then sometimes, you get empathy mixed up with bullshitting and fantasising.
If you put too much of yourself into another person’s situation in the guise of empathy, that’s not recognising and sharing the feelings of another. It’s latching and hogging aka overempathy.
You can relate to their situation without becoming them and making their situation about you. When you overempathise, you make too many assumptions about their motivations and the meaning of their actions. You might even tell yourself that you know what they’re thinking (you don’t).
Empathy allows you to consider another person’s perspective. If you make it about your feelings, it’s your perspective. When you deny, rationalise, and minimise the truth so that you can remain in a situation, it turns it into a fantasy.
Genuine empathy allows you to be real.
Genuine compassion for someone in a difficult situation does not always boil down to doing the easy thing. This is especially the case if doing so is more about keeping you in your own comfort zone. You will do more harm than good, including to yourself.
So, what do you do when someone shares information that’s critical to the status or perception of your relationship?
E.g. “I’m not over my ex.”
First, ask yourself what it means about them/your perception of them. Then ask what it means about the future of your relationship/the potential you had in mind.
From there, you can form action points or the basis for asking important questions to clarify their position. This helps you to make healthy decisions in reality.
What you shouldn’t be asking after someone shares information about themselves is What’s wrong with me? Nothing’s wrong with you. They’re hurting/struggling/whatever. They’re emotionally dealing with something from their past, so they cannot recognise and truly participate in a good thing in front of them.
Your thoughts?
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Thank you so much for your blog! You have helped me so much! Sadly, I discovered that I am the unavailable one, since it is the one thing that all of my exes said about me and most of them, also had as an issue.
I am seeing a therapist in two weeks time and really, I got the courage to call also thanks to your posts.
I want to have a good relationships and I really would love to have some kids in my future. I am turning 30 this year, so I feel it’ s about time.
Right now, I have been dating someone who really wants to be with me and work around his and my issues, but I am too scared that his are too big…his ex, which he had been dating for years, died just two years ago as they were about to make a commitment to each other. So this post nails it. He really acts like he wants to be with me and I am scared (even though he struggles, but I am not Florence Nightingaling anymore, thanks to you).
My priority right now is to be happy with myself. This guy would just be the bonus! 🙂
Life and love are always a work in progress, aren’t they?
Thanks for your wisdom, Natalie! You cannot start to imagine how much you helped me.
Cookie from Germany.
Ok, this is a new one on me. I recently started dating a man whose wife died a year ago. I’ve met his daughter and they’re both super nice people. Emotionally he’s not over her yet and I’ve urged him to get some counseling to deal with it and he says he will get a therapist this week. I told him that we can remain friends but nothing more because he’s not ready yet. I do like the man, but he’s got issues besides this one. But, his good qualities are VERY good (honest, caring, sweet, intelligent etc). So what do I do with this? Remain friends and wait it out and still remain single and opened to whatever comes along?
Ivy,
I’d hit the road.
I’d remain friends just friends but go on with your life with no illusions. I also think meeting his daughter was not a good thing for him to allow, the poor girl has been through enough and doesn’t need women in and out of her life, she needs stability. That to me was a red flag.
I’d probably state my intentions and feelings – ie say that I would like to think we could have a relationship some day, but that it’s clear that he needs a sustained amount of time to properly grieve and heal, that you’re here for him, as a friend, but that you understand it’s really up to him to seek help and support if he needs it. I would not wait around as the shoulder-to-cry-on because once he does feel better, he’s very unlikely to see you as a romantic option. Having said that, maybe you should think about genuinely just having him as a friend, and let go of any fantasies about a relationship. Timing is a massive part of whether a relationship can flourish, so maybe just accept that the timing is off, and don’t punish you or him for that.
Trying the ‘friends’ thing sounds risky. Are you really okay with only having a friendship, or are you hoping that this man will heal and then want a relationship with you? How would you feel if you stick around being his ‘friend’ for six months or a year, only for him to start dating someone else?
@Ivy don’t be a nursemaid or glutton for punishment. He is not ready you’ll waste time.
Run! And go No Contact!
Just friends = No intimacy = Effectively a relationship without sex AND probably seeing other people as well. You’re hooked and then it’s been ‘bait and switch’. You thought maybe you’d get a relationship, and now the excuses have been wheeled out.
BAIL (politely)! and then go NC!
Don’t be an airbag to fall back on.
If a stranger sat across from me on the first date and told me that they liked me but no sex, no excusivity, no LTR and they, just wanted to be friends, it would be FLUSH FLUSH from me. Look at the ‘deal’ on offer. It is TERRIBLE!
People have pulled this ‘lets be friends’ on me THREE TIMES now. It never goes anywhere, there is *ALWAYS* someone else on the side, whether LTR candidate or shag buddy, they go off fishing for someone else on *your* time and you run the risk of becoming EU as well as you place a ‘hold’ on them while you consider other options. And they make terrible ‘friends’.
Why are they even dating if they’ve only got a heart in pieces to offer?
He wants a free shrink, and someone on whom he can test ideas/thoughts/theories out on first.
NOPE!
Tell him, quite clearly, that it is clear that, given any desire of his (stated or clearly implied/inferred) to be “friends” (even if he means it), this then CLEARLY means:
1. he wants to date others;
2. you are not one of those others, as he just told you that he wants to be friends;
3. “we’re both seeing other people then, right?”
Maybe hearing #3 COMING FROM YOUR OWN MOUTH IN HIS DIRECT PRESENCE may make him wake up.
But, even if he does (wake up), and wants to proceed with you and you alone as a date, then you have to make the judgment call: is he ready to date? Am I ready if he decides he is not later on?
Ivy, that’s the question I have been asking myself. My guy is really depressed, which surely also has to do with his ex passing away, but not only. I can so understand the fear of opening up again after something so traumatic. I feel like having an ex with whom it just didn’t work out is so much different than having an ex who passed away…
Still, I am trying to focus on myself first. Good for you, that you opted out! I feel that one can wait for a good man. But not forever! Please be careful!
Cookie, Ivy
I think there is a danger of seeing this wrong. We think that because he is hurting for a good reason (a death) that we should wait for him to get better.
If he’s not ready for a relationship, he’s not ready.
9 times out of 10 in these scenarios the person being caring, sacrificial and understanding (you) ends up the one being hurt. That’s the irony of it.
The problem with being someone’s nurse/counsellor/shoulder to lean on is that when they are stronger, they don’t need a nurse anymore. They fly off to someone else leaving you wondering where your reward is.
I totally agree Grace. The next relationship this guy will have will be a transitionary one, the one he uses to get over the hurt before the next serious one. Not intentionally i hasten to add.
Just in time, as always, NML! Having had my heart broken recently by a man who decided to go back to his ex of 2 years prior, I am proud to say that I made the healthy, reality-based decision to not remain friends, despite him requesting this, even knowing that it really would only be a friendship. When said man found this hard to accept (we really did get along rather well), I simply asked him how he planned to explain our friendship to his ex, once they reconciled. He saw my point.
I will admit that I initially asked ‘What’s wrong with me?’, but have learned to identify this reaction as nothing more than a habit, which I am happily trying to break. I know this had nothing at all to do with me, and everything to do with his unresolved issues with his previous relationship. While I am sad that he won’t be part of my life, I am happy with how I handled things. Your wisdom over the years has helped me get here. Thank you.
High fives, champ!
Like someone wildly ringing a bell, this line caught my attention because you don’t do second best. I don’t want to be anyone’s next in line girl.
I don’t remember ever dealing with someone that was not over their ex…………..well there was this one time where after I forwarded a picture of me to a guy a friend had introduced me to via email some years ago, he replied saying he was getting back together with his ex. Now, that may be true or he did not like what I looked like. Oh well. That was over 10-years-ago.
I can completely relate to “What? They’re telling me that they’re not over their ex! We were having such a great time but I obviously wasn’t good enough to make them forget about them. I feel so rejected! I just need some more time to show them!”
Must remember: it’s not about me, it’s not about me, it’s not about me, it’s not about me
This was my situation exactly a year ago, when I discovered my then partner was not over his ex and was secretly messaging and calling her (and others) while he was away on a 3-month working holiday in South America. At the time I *totally* made it all about me not being good enough, which was extremely damaging to my self-esteem and plunged me into a spiralling depression. Trouble is, he also made it look like it was about me not being good enough. He told me that I was being “cold” towards him, which I don’t believe I actually was as I was desperately trying to salvage the failing relationship and being anything *but* cold. He was also being passive-aggressive around stuff we were supposed to be doing together, and making subtly admiring comments about his ex that undermined me and the way I do things. Even after we broke up, I continued to do all the Coulda Woulda Shoulda analysis for a while, trying to pinpoint what it was I did to make him fall out of love with me and back in love with her. It took a while to see it all with a clear and logical insight . With all that I’ve learnt from reading BR since breaking up last February, I hope it wouldn’t even come to being in that same situation today, as I would’ve run like the wind as soon as I knew he wasn’t over the ex – long before allowing myself or him to make it all about me when it actually wasn’t.
Your ex was a crazy-maker, and clearly villainising you so that he found it easier to live with what he was doing. You’re well shot of him. And, you’re right, you won’t get in this crazy-making scene again.
Funny you should say that, Elle! He told me he thought his ex-wife and at least two ex-girlfriends were crazy (not the one he hadn’t got over – she, apparently, could do no wrong by the time our relationship was ending). If they really *were* crazy, I wonder who made them so???
Seriously, though, I absolutely hear you on him doing the villainising thing – people like that always make themselves out to be the “victim” and everyone else to be horrible and/or wrong so that they themselves get to feel like they’re wonderful and/or right. Fact is, he should never have been making out he was serious about a future with me when he hadn’t dealt with any of his issues around the previous g/f, and I should never have let myself take the bait hook, line and sinker. Still makes me a bit nervous to get involved with anyone else just yet, if I’m honest… I obviously have more work to do!
“It means thoughts popping into your head when you least expect them that you may feel like you have no control over. It means crying unexpectedly or feeling a sudden surge of anger or a deep wave of sadness.”
Hmm.
Last night I just had quite an enjoyable third date with an attractive, kind guy I met before Xmas. Spielberg movie, flamenco, first smooching and some snuggles. We have plans to meet up again this week.
And then this morning, on my own, I bawled pretty unexpectedly – a good gut cry, had a little moment of the terrors that usually accompany me starting any sexual activity with someone new, and found myself about to relaunch to the other side of the coin of my indifference, i.e. to anxiety.
I feel solid enough about myself, but in absolutely no rush to indicate to this person that I want something long-term. I still feel kind of unavailable, and though thoughts of my ex are still around, I don’t think it’s all about not being over him. I think it’s not totally being over all the bs that had me pursue a relationshit (to use Fearless’ term!) with the exAC for so long.
Feeling like it would be nice to just not define anything for as long as it lasts, enjoying each other’s company. Maybe I’ll spontaneously combust into someone who isn’t already thinking, shit, he really seems to like me, what have I gotten myself into here?
He’s nice enough that I think, what if over time my feelings deepened for him such that my doubts were overcome? Is there a time horizon for that? He’s also nice enough that I think, maybe if I have these doubts now, I’m (still!) not (effin!) ready, and I need to be kind and not treat this guy to the EU special.
In any event, this is the first physical affection, and first real interest in another person, I’ve engaged in since breaking up with the AC. It’s been sixteen months. And only three dates so far, but yes, the first promising dates in 16 months. It’s okay to explore a bit, I think.
I understand what you mean. I have been dating someone for a little over two months. He’s consistant, honest, dotes on me, does what he says he’ll do. My fear? I met him after I split with my EUM, I had started dabbling on line, and he came along BOOM. In turn, he is less than a year out of a VERY messy divorce and now has custody of three little kids. We have a great time together, we talk, and talk, he actually listens, he thinks my quirks are funny, he doesn’t freak because I gained a few pounds over Christmas…I think he’s smart, empathetic, open-minded, grounded….all the things I didn’t get from the EUM or even my ex husband.
But I’m afraid. Afraid I jumped in too soon without chilling for a while from the last relationship (though truth be told, I was pretty damned sick of him at the end). Afraid because I wonder if I am his rebound girl. The only thing that gives me a glimmer of hope is the pacing of this relationship compared to EVERY other one I ever had…he hasn’t future faked AT ALL. He doesn’t trample my boundaries. For instance, my teenage daughter is suffering from depression and even though the new guy wanted me to spend the night, I said no because I don’t want my daughter home alone overnight (even though she can and has done it). He thought not only was it OK, but he said admired me more as a person for having done so. The ex and the EUM would have made me feel like I was doing something bad because THEY weren’t being taken care of. New guy asks me when *I* can meet. There has been no talk of meeting friends, parents, children, but there has been discussion that these things MAY happen later, no timetables have been set.
For the first time, I am not experiencing all that much relationship anxiety. If he realizes he’s not over his ex, I truly understand that it has nothing to do with me. By his actions I can tell he likes me mighty fine, so that’s not the issue. I would be sad, for sure, but he’s a good enough guy that I would be happy for him if this is where he felt he needed to be.
In the meantime, I feel like a massive amount of time and space for both of us to sort out how to do this sanely is the best way to go. We get together, dip out feet into the water together, go about our business for the rest of the week, have time to think about what is the best course of action. Get…
Magnolia,
I can relate to what you said about being over an EX but not over the bullshit you went through while with the ex. The cutting down and the slip into oblivion is hard to forget. Losing yourself once or twice can change you. I wonder sometimes who the new person looking back at me in the mirror is, because I’m not the same person. Some of the change is good, like self awareness, but some changes are like scar tissue, under the surface. We learn our sore spots and our new strengths, then how to be who we are again. Learning to be with someone new is an unfamiliar road with our new selves. Going for a test drive is okay.
Hey Magnolia,
Good to hear from you. I’m a few steps behind where you are in the healing process but I can hear you. This passage from Natalie’s post “You Can’t Erase an Ex” resonated with me: “If you have a suddenly flurry of thoughts after feeling that you’re doing better, don’t panic – on a subconscious level, you’re actually moving towards acceptance. Maybe you’re enjoying yourself or have realised that a week or so has gone by without really thinking of them – it’s panic about rolling with it and letting go, so as if to make up for it, you go on thinking overload. It would be better to focus on returning to what you were being and doing before the panic arrived”. Your comment about having bawling and having a good gut cry made me wonder if on a subconscious level you’re actually moving toward acceptance? Maybe you are enjoying yourself?
I’m no expert and I haven’t talked to a man other than at the gas station or grocery store regarding dismay at the price of gas or food so please disregard if it doesn’t apply but your comment about having a “little moment of the terrors that usually accompany me starting any sexual activity with someone new…” caught my attention. It’s only been 3 dates. After being on BR, I’ve finally realized that our 3 date rule in the US (you have to sleep with them after the 3rd date–no doubt propagated by EUM/AC’s) is BS. Maybe just slow down? Breathe? There’s no fire? There’s no need to have sex until you are ready? You haven’t really gotten yourself into anything other than 3 dates. In the US, we call this “talking someone off the cliff”. You are in charge of your life. You won’t treat this guy to the EU special if you aren’t ready because you trust yourself to know.
Could you copy this post from me to you? I’m pretty sure I’ll need to hear this back in a few months. I always like when I’m giving advice I need to hear! Breathe Magnolia breathe. Maybe just enjoy?
I agree. Slow down, Mags. Get to know him well. Wait til you feel like good pals before having sex. I have heard of this 3rd date rule (from my friends in NY) and I think it’s ridiculous (with respect to American readers). It’s so artificial and contrived. Yuck. Go your pace. Build reciprocal bonds before you add all the emotional stuff that comes in with sex.
Having said that, you also don’t want to make sex this big deal so that after you’ve had it, you’re likely to offload all this stuff about past traumas and what this means to you.
You don’t have to make this situation of meeting someone who might (or might not) be right for you have this extra meaning. Presuming this guy is a decent, honourable fellow (and you have to judge that over time, through actions), then he is certainly not the guys of your past who have abused and assaulted you. I am aware that I am treading in territory for which I am not trained, but I do think, from my own experiences, that you have to be careful with bringing in a bucketload of meaning to new relationships.
You have a chance to start afresh. You can handle this. You are stronger than you think, and you can always get out if you really need to. Try to enjoy it. Let it roll out for a bit and then see how you feel. Don’t go straight into six months down the track. This is the early phase.
Thanks ladies. I don’t feel in any real danger of having sex before I’m ready – funny how though the exAC told me he wasn’t pressuring me to have sex, I totally felt pressured – I feel no pressure coming from this guy.
Runner, I cried in a way that I usually would have ‘saved’ for an intimate moment with whatever dude. I’m so glad that it now seems wiser to me to self-soothe and to talk through the little panics with myself rather than dramatically ‘open up’ to a new guy. Elle, I hear you about making sex this big thing that turns the new interaction into some kind of redemption scene in the old Magnolia’s victim story. He told me I was pretty and I had the passing urge to burst into the story of how ugly they said I was … etc etc … but the urge passed. I said thank-you.
I’m in actually in a pretty drama-free zone of curiosity: what the heck do I want a guy for if all the healing-the-victim stuff is off the table and I’m not just interviewing for a co-parent? Suddenly so much of what I used to go for and expect (a certain kind of support, a certain kind of ego-stroke, admiration, someone to buy into my story) doesn’t really appeal to me. So far a few laughs and kind conversation have been nice.
I personally won’t stick around if someone is still struggling over an ex again. It’s such a roller coaster slap in the face ride that I can live without. I’ve been on both sides of the fence on this one….they both suck. One leaves you wanting all the time, the other leaves you feeling hollow. It is especially hard when your partner won’t admit they aren’t over the ex and you keep wondering what the hell is going on. It can be hard to connect the dots. Sometimes we don’t need to see all the pieces of the puzzle to know what the picture is though, we just don’t want to admit what we see.
Oh boy I have to say after following you for about six months i’m smitten. I’m a woman who searches high and low for good advice and I just LOVE yours! Direct and no bullsh** if I can be so blunt. We ladies are so good at being, well good girls we forget that being good doesn’t mean being soft.
You tell women who resonate with your words what they need to hear and exactly in my opinion how they need to hear it. Often there is confusion and down right fantasy going on when we are in the flurry of a strong heart beat.
I find you refreshing and very aware. Thank you for telling us your own past behaviors and failings because it certainly shows you’ve earned your stripes.
I hope you will expand on the topics you blog and give women tips on how to navigate the terrain. That would surely pack a wallop i’m sure.
Thanks for being you and the voice of reason when chaos can reign in relationships.
You rock!
Angela
Natalie,
The last three posts are great companion pieces. I can now clearly see that if/when I decide to date (assuming I get out of the house) and “I go out and find out”, if I’m not over the exMM/AC, it would have absolutely nothing to do with him. He could be the most amazing SINGLE guy in the world, respectful, honest, trustworthy, and caring but if I’m not over the ex, it would have nothing to do with how wonderful HE may be or is. If I’m not over my ex that would be about me. If that is the case and I’ve got more work to do getting over the ex, I would say so and want him to not make it about him. That being said, I can also see the flip side. Even if I’m over my ex but he isn’t, the fact he isn’t over his ex, would have nothingwhatsoever to do with me, even if I’m the most amazing single woman in the world, respectful, honest, trustworthy, and caring. It cuts both ways when you so clearly point out that there are 2 separate (maybe 3 or even 4) coming to the table.
“Empathy allows you to consider another person’s perspective,– if you make it about your feelings, it’s your perspective… ” This is a really important point for me right now in other areas of my life as well as I consider this dating stuff. If I’m not over the ex, I would want him to understand/consider my perspective and not make it about him. By the same token, if he isn’t over his ex, it cannot be about me and I shouldn’t make it about me. Do I have this right? Is it that simple?
Thanks for this post Natalie. I am actually just grappling with this issue now and talked about it in your previous post.
A quick recap. Met a guy at a wedding about a month ago. I had amazing chemistry with him (haven’t felt this in years). Over the course of the month we went out on three dates. He was always lovely and I felt we really hit it off. We chatted to the wee hours of the morning on our dates. He even took me for a picnic in the park. However, between dates I barely heard from him. He kissed me briefly on the lips on the first date. But nothing afterwards. On our final date a week ago, we were watching a DVD, he put his arm around me. DVD finished. I went to kiss him. He pulled back. He apologised and told me that he was not over his ex-fiance, who he had broken up with for the second time about two months ago. He is from the US, and he’s moved to Australia to live straight after this happened. I’m from Oz. I thanked him for letting me know, and told him I’d still like to be friends.
It actually really cut me up because we got on so well and I was really attracted to him. While it did explain his hot and cold behaviour, I was tormented by the niggling thought that “Yes, he may not be over his ex, but maybe the real reason is that he’s really not that into me.” Why? Because he acts like he is SO happy. He messaged me yesterday telling me what a GREAT time he had over the weekend. It doesn’t sound like someone mourning their ex. And it’s hard to feel empathy for someone who sounds like he is having the best time of his life. But maybe I am being too unfair on him?
Ladies, if I do take him for his word that he is not over his ex, should I:
1) keep in contact with him as friends (with the chance that once he is ready to date, he’ll ask me out again), or
2) go NC, and move on.
I actually did get a little angry last night, and decided I’m not going to chase him. I’m worth more than that. I’m not going to put anyone on a pedestal; and he’s not the last chance saloon (thank you Nat for your wisdom). I’ve actually lined up a date with someone else this Friday, but still wondering whether I should keep in contact with the “not over his ex” guy.
I have the fear that when he is finally “ready” to date, if I’m not in his life anymore, he will ask someone out who is. However, I guess, if he really liked me, he would try and keep in contact with me or at least reconnect with me once he was emotionally available, otherwise it was not meant to be.
Take his word for it and dont put yourself in the friend category with him. I’m always skeptical on why someone would go on a date with a person they dont want to kiss. I went out with a guy on 5 dates who never made a move, so I stated my concern over this and then I stopped communicating with him. It’s not something I would do so I have a difficult time believing others would do it. I think if you distance yourself from him, he will be more likely to call if/when he’s interested but I would not wait on him nor be friends.
SM
I’ve been tempted to do it – hang out with guys who I know like me for a bit of company, attention and a laugh. But I haven’t because it’s unfair.
At least LA’s date has realised it’s unfair and bailed. It would be absolutely the wrong thing to do to hunt someone down for doing the right thing. Even if they did that right thing a little too late.
After 3 dates I don’t believe anyone owes anybody any kind of explanation. LA – at least you got one. Let it be.
I wouldn’t even call it NC. How can you NC someone you’ve only met three times? There’s been barely any contact to end.
I get that it’s disappointing you but don’t know the guy and there’s a danger of going back to EU habits by pursuing someone who has flat out told you he’s not interested.
Sure, you can probably wrestle a few more dates out of him, some sex, and some kind of halfhearted relationship. But why would you want to? It should be freely given.
Sure, you may think “I will hang around until such time that he is available so I am first in line”. Unfortunately, men don’t respect that kind of behaviour. I know I don’t!
LA,
Hmm, I’m with SM on this one. You need to respect your own feelings about this guy. You wanted to kiss him, that’s fine. Normal, great if it had happened but..he pulled away. He may see you as a friend, a transitional person, helping him back into the world of dating.
Either way, you want to be with someone who wants to kiss you right on back. I think you are making the right call.
I had a really similar experience — went on a couple of fairy tale dates, but the guy pulled away from the goodnight kisses. That really stung. Over thought that to death — why would someone DO that? More than once? What was wrong with me?
But it really didn’t matter why. I had all the information I needed. People just do weird things. Flush!
Then why did he kiss her the first time, on the first date?!
Oh please that kiss meant nothing why do women take a lousy kiss so seriously? Why do we eat cakes? Cause they taste good. Stop overthinking a kiss.
FlowerWhite
To me kissing is serious. But to others it really is not. Same with sex.
If we take kissing seriously what we need to do is hold back until we are *reasonably* sure of the person. Which in my opinion takes more than a date or maybe even three. What we shouldn’t do is kiss someone and then assume they take it as seriously as we do.
I’ve known a few men and women who don’t see it as a big deal to “snog” (as we Brits say) someone. I don’t judge em but would I snog em and then chase em down for commitment?
Not in this life.
I hope it’s not too late to comment on this.
The reason he pulled away from LA’s advances is simple. He told you he’s not over his ex-fiance (from whom he’s split TWICE, remember). What he DIDN’T tell you, is that he still harbours hope of getting with back together with her. And if he does, anything more than giving LA a polite, innocent kiss is going to require some heavy explanation to the fiance. Even if he and the fiance are technically (and freshly) broken up, he still has emotional ties and he knows that sleeping with LA will be considered cheating.
(Am I the only one who saw that classic episode of the TV show “Friends”, where Ross sleeps with another girl while he and Rachel were supposedly on a “break”??)
I’m with Grace and SM. I don’t think it matters how much it’s about his ex and how much is about not being into you. The message from him is that he’s not ready to get into anything. Maybe a bit irresponsible of him to be out on dates only two months after ending things with a fiancee.
Also re pulling away: I feel like when I decide to kiss, I’m getting in deeper. I might have a great time on a date, but I don’t like the pressure to ‘seal’ the evening with a kiss, or to be expected to cross that boundary that is going to mean expectations of kissing on every date after that. My resistance has nothing to do with how cute or kissable the guy is.
It’s not like I can change the world of dating, but I think it’s a bit crazy the way we expect to be sucking face with someone we’ve only known for a handful of hours. With new platonic friends it can be months, even years, before I’m truly openly physically affectionate with them – meaning even just ‘real’ hugs, or squeezes of the knee, hand on the shoulder type stuff. If I’m huggy and airkissy when I’ve only just met a person, it’s pretty surface.
Anyway, I can relate to the end-of-date kiss hesitation. Even if I have already kissed. I don’t think having kissed someone on the first couple dates guarantees anything.
Magnolia, I just wanted to tell you that I am going out on my first date tonite. I met the guy unexpectedly last Friday, he is super good looking. As usual I kind of pulled away because I was intimidated by his looks. Then I got a grip of myself and said ‘you are worthy’ of someone super HOT. I started responding to his attention, he was not overly aggressive but seemed respectable. He asked if I had a boyfriend and if I was interested in going on a date so I gave him my number. He called the next day and set up a date, and…get…this…he has not text me once. Only phoned appropriately to have an hour long conversation and that was it. Because of BR I have my head on the straightest it has ever been.
When you have worked far enough down the path healing yourself, this type of situation will have less of an impact on you. As the others said, three dates is and should be nothing more to you than a minor disappointment. The reason I say this is because, when your self esteem is healthy enough, it won’t register as a rejection or last chance saloon. It will be no more than a bummer and you may or may not choose to remain friendly with him with NO FUTURE EXPECTATIONS.
I had a similar situation last year with a man I really liked. I knew he liked me, was attracted to me, but was not getting physical with me. Then the lightbulb went off. He confirmed he was in an off state with an on/off relationship he couldn’t break. From reading this blog I saw BIG RED FLAG. As I was in the same situation with the MM, we were like two grieving people looking for comfort. So I did the adult thing, called him up and said I really like you, if you ever decide you are done with your current situation, give me a call and we’ll see where I am at. We reconnected about 6 months later just to say hi. No romantic expectations on either side.
Long story short, we meet once in a while, have a glass of wine, he is still in and out with that relationship, I like him as a friend, end of story. I am not upset when I don’t hear from him for 3 months but he is worth a limited amount of my attention. I moved on, have a great boyfriend, so even if he was interested, right now MY timing would not be right. But he is a nice man and I consider him a friend (for real, not pretend/hopeful!).
P.S. He is still going through that relationship from hell, I actually do have empathy for him. Two years ago, all I would have felt was the rejection. It is not all about me, thanks for that gem Natalie!!
Oldenough
Thanks for sharing. After my years in the EU jungle I’ve been very black and white about friendships with men (ie no-go area) but I feel myself loosening up.
I think the key is boundaries.
And being able to accept things in a no-drama, matter of fact way. If we are friends and he meets a woman he likes but who hates me then, fair enough, our friendship may have to go to the wall but it’s not about me. If his feelings grow or mine do, but a relationship isn’t on the cards, then it may be time to end the friendship. That’ s not about me being un-friendworthy. If he’s not over the ex, maybe we could still hang out as friends but I won’t make it all about me if his ex does return and he disappears from my life. Or if he does meet someone else completely.
I feel as if I could deal with those scenarios, quite happily.
Otherwise – it’s still a no-go area and that’s fine. We know as individuals what we can deal with (and by “deal with” I don’t mean denial).
LA,
I would move on, as you have feelings for him.- I think it would be very difficult.
Hell, it could take years for him to move on, do you really want to wait around for someone to heal from a break up?
Cut contact!
LA – go with what what everyone’s saying here. You’re in danger of making a fool of yourself. If there’s any chance of him seeing you as relationship-worthy, it will be because you’ve distanced yourself from him and given him the space to do whatever it is he needs (and is entitled) to do. Maybe he thought he was ready to date, but then realised he wasn’t. That’s not a crime. It’s a bit poor form, but it’s pretty normal, and at least he’s been honest. Don’t do a number on yourself and think now that the task is to prove yourself to be worthy of a relationship. Really. Just don’t. It will only lead to pain. Cut your losses and focus on filling up your life with other, more straightforward stuff. Finally, don’t trick yourself into thinking because there are challenges in this little dalliance that it’s somehow more meaningful than a guy who meets you with a genuinely open heart and clear mind.
Elle,
Loved your quote: “Finally, don’t trick yourself into thinking because there are challenges in this little dalliance that it’s somehow more meaningful than a guy who meets you with a genuinely open heart and clear mind.”
Guilty as charged! The tendency is there to place more value on the guy that plays “hard to get” or flat out doesn’t want you, over someone who is genuinely interested in you, open and emotionally available.
SM, grace, Jennynic, Lynda from L, Skyscraper, Vivien, Oldenough, Allison, thank you so much for your feedback!
Well he messaged me over Facebook yesterday, telling me he was going to a parade on the weekend, and that I could “come if I want.” He told me he had asked a couple of other people, who were non committal, but he was going either way. Made it sound very much like, “I’m not bothered if you do or do not come”, which I guess was him making it clear “this is not a date.” As his new to the city, he doesn’t have many friends, so not sure if I’m just being used for company or if he genuinely does enjoy being around me. I said OK, and agreed to go, but having doubts.
His behaviour is still a little odd. He didn’t say goodbye when we were chatting over Facebook yesterday, just logged off. He’s going to let me know the details a little later in the week.
I’ve lined up a date with someone else on Friday night, and could line up another date with another guy the following night, so I’m definitely not putting my life on hold waiting for the “not over his ex” guy to become available.
However, I definitely don’t want to appear like someone who is hanging around waiting to be first in line for when he is ready (thanks for that line grace)… that does reek of desperation and does devalue me.
I guess, if I go out with him, it will need to be with the clear expectation that it is purely on a friendship level – nothing else. But then if we are just friends, do I tell him about my dates, or not?? It’s all still a little puzzling.
It sounds like he got the EUM Handbook for Christmas and is now working on the suggested activities in Chapter 2.
Let him find somebody else to play the role of crash test dummy in his practice exercises. While you go out on those other dates with guys who might actually turn out to be fully functioning adult males.
“It sounds like he got the EUM Handbook for Christmas and is now working on the suggested activities in Chapter 2.”
Skyscraper that is hilarious!!! You made me laugh! I think he must have the manual!
Sorry to say it but you have been friend-zoned. He is letting you know that you are not a priority.
What would you tell your other male friends re. dates?
If you have feelings, you should let this guy go. It can be pretty devaluing when feelings are one-sided.
Yep, I pretty much think I’ve been “friend zoned” too! If I met up with my other male friends, I would tell them about the dates.
LA
“so I’m definitely not putting my life on hold waiting for the “not over his ex” guy to become available.”
What I have realised through extensive BR study (!) is that “not putting your life on hold” is a mental attitude and not about simply being prepared to go out with (date) other people. You can go out on as many dates as you want but if you are emotionally ‘on hold’ then you are ‘on hold’, sounds to me like you are. I did two dates with a guy once, pre my BR education – because I was determined not to put/keep myself on hold for the now ex EUM who was hanging about my life when he felt like it – I didn’t do a third date for many reasons but one of them was that I realised (all by myself!) that I was emotionally still stuck on the EUM – emotionally on hold, and that I was kidding myself on if I thought this was me ‘not putting myself on hold”.
“But then if we are just friends, do I tell him about my dates, or not?? It’s all still a little puzzling.”
It’s only puzzling cos you are not prepared yet to see and accept that this guy is a waste of/and wasting your time. It’s not that he “sounded like he wasn’t bothered if you come or not”, it’s that he is telling you he is not bothered. I’d say you need to stop looking for ways to morph the communication you are getting from this guy into something that you like the sound of better – take it for what it is.
skyscraper:
“It sounds like he got the EUM Handbook for Christmas and is now working on the suggested activities in Chapter 2.”
Too funny!
Fearless,
Thank you. I really needed this gentle slap back into reality. You are so right. You’ve made me realise that while I’m preparing to go out and date other guys, I’m still harboring the secret fantasy that ‘not over his ex’ , will suddenly morph into Mr Emotionally Available and will suddenly tell me what a fool he has been and that I’m too good a catch to let go! This is not going to happen. I have been slanting all his actions through my own lens, which hopes that he is interested. I must go back to reality of the situation and see it for what it is. He doesn’t sound interested, because he is NOT interested. Brilliant insight. Thanks.
Whatever the reason might be, no intimacy, WHATEVER the reason = flat out flashing code red!
The have no obligation to sign you up to the relationship deal, because by signing the ‘lets be friends’ deal, you signed up for the friends package.
I know have a list of specific “magic trigger words” that when I hear someone say, it is instant dismissal, FLUSH FLUSH.
The word “friend” is one of those “magical trigger words”.
tired_of_assanova
Yes, I know – lots of red flags with this guy! As Skyscraper said, he’s got the EU manual! I’ve really got to see the situation for what it is and mentally move on. I probably should flush him, but I will go out with him this weekend as a “friend”. If I feel during the night that I can’t view him in this new light, and he’s still playing funny buggers, I will flush.
He wants to see and be seen with you.
Think about how he wants others to view him too–think about his image.
Too funny, Natalie! Just recently, after two seemingly fantastic dates loaded with chemistry, laughs, and great conversation, I get the “I’ve got shit to work out in my head over my ex but can we be friends” text. My answer: No. Not looking for a friend. Got plenty. Pretty damn sure none of them would show the lack of balls you just did by texting instead of calling.
Later, in the pub with his friends who introduced us, they tell me he said I reminded him too much of his ex in the way I was relating to him, and the particulars weren’t exactly positive. Ladies, don’t them them put THAT bullshit on you, either. That’s their stuff, not yours, and is just another form of them not being over the ex. Not over the things they liked, and not over the things they didn’t, either. The key words are “not over.”
Kmac…you got it! This is the guy that ‘rescheduled’ two dates on you, right? He was just bad news from the beginning.
Kmac, I like your response to him, because it’s spot on in my opinion. I wouldn’t communicate with him any further though. He sounds immature and definitely EU. My last ex used to compare me in a negative way to his ex, which was like convicting me for her crimes. If I did something that even approached something she did, even though he was reading into it completely, I would get the speech and the silent treatment even though I hadn’t done anything. I bailed eventually and never looked back.
LA, If a guy says he isn’t over his ex, believe him. You aren’t a priority and he is telling you so. He is being honest, even if you don’t like the truth. When we grovel at their feet to be the priority, we devalue ourselves and tell him we are okay with being second, or even third. By waiting around for him, you are communicating that you don’t expect more for yourself. Maybe he is having a great time, but that is all he wants right now. As soon as the great time starts to involve responsibility…..see how quick he’s missing in action. He isn’t ready, for whatever reason it doesn’t matter. Don’t second guess what he’s telling you.
Thanks, SM and Jennynic for your support. And exactly, Jennynic…I felt convicted for crimes she committed! How could he possibly even know me after two dates? No amount of sexual attraction or great sex in the world is worth devaluing ourselves with these guys! Can you say “squirrel?”
Thanks for the advice Jennynic! Yes, you are right. I’m not a priority and waiting around to become a priority certainly does devalue me. When he gave me the “Not over my ex line” I told him that was OK as I’ve got a few other guys wanting to date me (not sure if that comes across as desperate or not). I’m definitely not waiting for him to become available, but I’m just not sure whether I should keep in contact with him or not. I like his company, but is it worth it ?
Gee, Kmac, well done. Maybe I need some of your attitude!
Hi everyone, hi Nat (my personal saviour),
I’ve been reading entry after entry for what has been months now (both during and after my EUM nonsense) and to be honest this entry in combination with “Transitionals and rebound” relationships has got my head SPINNING. I was the transitional woman, I was the segway in to a new relationship so he wouldn’t have to be alone (his admittedly BIGGEST FEAR). How did I miss the signs, even when they were blatant? Months in, I found old pornographic images and videos on his computer freshly viewed for his entertainment. It made me sick and sent me in to a spiral. In combination with a million other red flags, it all makes sense now. Bright as day. Never again, I will never again allow me to be disrespected. When your EUM looks you in the eyes and tells you he wants nothing more than to be with you, look right back in to his and remind yourself that they are only words. Words MUST MATCH the action. I WILL love, cherish, and respect myself.
With you Red Velvet, pics and messages to old girlfriends entirely disrespectful. Action, action, actions everytime.
Great to hear you ‘re healing.
Hi Lynda from L,
Thank you for your response, it’s encouraging to get your feedback… but I am in a bit of a dilemma at the moment. I’ve been up and down for the last month and half since he dumped on me and walked away like we weren’t together for almost two years. It’s one thing to be sad and miss the good times, miss his companionship, then spiral in to all of the red flags of unavailability (I’m not denying that I was EU in this, why else would I have pulled him in!). BUT the hardest part for me right now is the idea that despite the fact that he was for the most part EU, that I WAS the buffer in this relationship. He clearly showed me time and time again that he was not over his ex, I even looked for signs out of paranoia and jealousy (Lord knows I found them). I can’t seem to shake the feeling that after leaving his ex of ten years for me, that now he’s moved on to the next woman one week after we broke up. He’s done the same thing to me, what did I expect? It’s just hard to believe that someone you put your all in to could completely turn his back and walk away. I’m afraid that with this *new woman*, he is a *new* man…suddenly available, suddenly not hot and cold anymor, suddenly able to feel what he deemed the “L” word, suddenly able to be happy with his life and those around him. I feel so angry at myself for still thinking about him day and night.
Yeah, you will be up and down, wholly understandable after this. Feel for you.
Have you checked the back catalogue of articles on here?
There is one’ He’s with her and not me’ Might help?
Remember that the fact that he moved on after a week…it’s not about you. It’s a sign of his sickness, his emotional unavailability.
You need to work on why you wanted to be with someone who did that, was capable of that. It will take a bit of time, again, positive and normal. Take it in bits. No rush.
However, the guy you describe, his behaviour, his ex issues, you, the next one after you…!
Above all, Red Velvet, pat yourself on back, cry, scream,get angry whatever works…but you have had lucky escape. He is serial. Big time. Be good to you.
RV and Lynda,
Here is a quote from the article that I believe Lynda is referring to:
” …the likelihood is that if he was f*cked up when you were with him and he’s taken up with someone else, he hasn’t changed which means that there is something about the relationship with her that let’s him believe that he can continue being himself.
You also need to remember that with men who habitually mess women around, they ALWAYS blow hot at first which means that when you are losing your mind obsessing over him, he’s going through the same hot phase that he treated YOU to at the beginning. But eventually, lukewarm or downright cold kicks in.”
Hope that helps.
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/hes-with-someone-else-why-her-and-not-me/
Red Velvet,
I went through a very similar experience. My ex of 3.5 years moved in with another woman within a week of him breaking up with me. I was then subjected to lovey-dovey comments on the new woman’s Facebook account about how “in love” and “in bliss” they were, and how he was the “most amazing, loving man ever”. I was devastated.
My ex was a man-child and he had major issues. I also questioned whether he had become a *new man* after breaking up with me? The answer is NO! Six months on, the honeymoon stage with this new woman is well and truly over. Where once this woman posted about how “happy” and “in love” she was, she now never posts. The few posts that she does write are about her crying all the time, and not being an alcoholic but liking to drink. I actually feel a little bit sorry for her.
So give your ex time. He has not become a *new man*, it’s just the honeymoon stage. He will revert back to his old ways. Don’t envy this other woman, feel sorry for her. He has become her problem now. Be glad that you have dodged a bullet with this guy, and that you are free to meet someone worthy of you.
My AC was caught up in his ex – called her, infantalised her, lashed out to me about her, but then, of course, dismissed my concerns about their attachment. It was a joke, and one I paid for. I simply won’t be with someone who has regular contact with or seriously unresolved feelings (as distinct from occasional feelings of regret or discomfort) about an ex. And I am often explaining what Nat says here to my sister: that being compassionate is about leaving someone who is afflicted alone, to fully heal, and about protecting yourself and keeping yourself steady so that if someone does need to rely on you, you don’t get caught up in the whirlwind, which is eminently unhelpful.
(BTW, BR pals, seem to have met a very solid guy – the one that I met over NYs – funny, witty and handsome, but, above all, kind, generous and reliable…oh, and he’s being very normal about rolling things out – enough to make me feel desired and supported, but not too much to indicate major emotional issues. Early days, but looking good, and I am relaxed about how it all goes – that is new for me!).
“And I am often explaining what Nat says here to my sister: that being compassionate is about leaving someone who is afflicted alone, to fully heal, and about protecting yourself and keeping yourself steady so that if someone does need to rely on you, you don’t get caught up in the whirlwind, which is eminently unhelpful.”
So true Elle! You are so good at summing it all up. 🙂
p.s. I like the sound of this new guy!
Thanks Natasha! It’s been great being able to share this journey with you and others…So lucky. (Thanks again Natalie!!!!!!!!!!)
During this period of vetting men I had a drinks date with a man who showed me pics of his ex girlfriend on his iPhone! Now, when a man mentions photos I perk up. Photos are the doorway to his inner world I study them carefully… When did you break up? I asked.
Two years ago, he said.
Say wha? They broke up two years ago but he’s got pics of her on his first page of photos? And of course…she was “crazy”!
Nice to meet you goodbye. I have no time to mop up his tears.
Ladies stop being the emotional nursemaid. If he’s got photos of his ex right on his cell phone he’s not over her.
As a matter of fact if they bring up their ex within the first hour of the date, they’re not over them.
Takes a lot of get over a person. I do believe that 50% of singles should not be dating, working on self-healing.
I agree entirely with you Flower White and think your stats of 50% may be spot on as well. I’m one of the one’s healing at moment and am enjoying my time out.
I know(not just think…) but know, that if I went on a date with someone and they produced a call phone with pics of an ex of two years ago…they would be looking at an empty chair!
I’m really interested in why he would find a reason to show them to you anyway, on a drinks date??The mind boggles.
It’s almost like he was dating to find a counsellor to hear his stories about the ex. Nice to meet you Goodbye was a great call!
I don’t see any valid reason for a guy to show you pictures of an ex, period. If you’ve been dating for a while and stumble across a photo album one day, fine, but to go out of his way to show you a picture of her when you’re just getting to know one another? Strange. I think some guys do this as a way of showing off when they think their ex is attractive (i.e. look, this hot girl dated me!)
@A
nowadays if one of the first pics that a guy volunteers to show me is one his ex…flush delete. So totally not over her. Immature and EU men do that as a test. I bow out!
Flower totally agree. I have some girlfriends that just jump from one man to the next and they claim the guy is eu, which he is but so are they. One of these guys went back to his exwife that he’d been legally divorced from for 4 years. My friend was devastated. I dated a guy who’d been broken up for a year and a half, had dated other women but wasnt over the gf. He went straight from the gf to dating a string of women, trying to get over that relationship, which when he was in it, he didnt want to be there in the first place hence the break up. He never said he wasnt over her but I could tell by all the things he did.
Natalie, I just want to say I discovered this site a few weeks ago and am blown away by your ability to articulate the fears, thoughts, hopes, dreams and delusions of people. I admire the fact you have turned negative past experiences into an opportunity to show compassion for others, offer wise advice and be the voice of reason. What a timely post. I saw a guy for 6 weeks who called regularly, was affectionate physically and verbally, opened doors, was gentle, shy and commented how happy I made him. Finally, I thought…. I meet a guy with a kind heart and whose actions matched his words. I was going overseas for a month and the week before I left he started acting standoffish. I knew something was up, so I pushed it and he told me was separated from his wife who had cheated on him, he’d adopted her 2 children 3 years ago when they married. He apologised for not telling me and said he was a coward. (I agreed) She recently contacted him and wanted to do counselling and was now willing to give him that child he’d wanted. He said he couldn’t trust her, didn’t want to be with her but knew he could not have a rship with me (“it wasnt right”) but wanted to stay friends. I said it wouldn’t work and that if we weren’t going to pursue a relationship it was best we had no contact. He said it was not what he wanted but that was up to me. I solved that by changing my number so his contact or lack of would not be a problem. To be honest I saw it as a major rejection. I was so hurt and still am to some degree that I was so easy to walk away from. Thanks Natalie for being a voice of reason and stopping the awful train of thoughts going through my head. I wish I had of met him later on down the track 🙁
Dear confused
sorry for the pain
now honey make a list of things you should have done as far as vetting a man, give yourself time to heal and vet the next men very carefully.
Hi Confused,
No wonder you are hurt and well..confused. Everyone here has had something similarly disappointing, so you are among friends. Sounds like this d**che had the nerve to offer you the Fallback card. You’re well shot of him as Nat says.
After reading your (another great) post, I went and googled (I know, I know, bad girl!!! But no danger here – I’m totally over him) this guy’s name out of curiosity. We briefly went out together some five years ago, before finding out he wasn’t over his ex (an ex who btw was only using him as an ego stroke). Luckily, I didn’t stay around, waiting for him to wake up and smell a rat. Well ladies, I got to see a recent convo between the two of them on one of these social media platforms:
Her: “Hello little fish of mine. Sorry for not being in touch! Busy.”
Him: “I thought your computer had been stolen!!!”
Nuff said. DON’T WASTE YOUR TIME.
Tania
I live in Northern Cali home of google yahoo ebay craigslist twitter imac and bisexual freaks, ha. Google is your friend. I soundly advise all dating women to google men. Sorry, its a new world women need the advantage. Who wants to waste time with a jerk, loser, or much, much worse when, at the tap of a button you have a wealth of information.
I once googled a guy I was interested in, who mutual friends also thought I should get together with, and found out that he was a closet gay. Speaking as a woman, that’s what I would call totally unavailable to me! I wondered why he hadn’t shown that much interest other than being a nice friendly chap… 😀 I did respect his privacy and didn’t let on to anyone what I’d discovered, as none of his friends and associates (none that I know at any rate) seemed to have any idea about it. So yes, Flower White, googling does indeed have its uses sometimes!
I think it’s important not only to pay attention if they seem hung up over one ex…but many.
Amen Sarah! I once went on a date with a guy that I swear was hung up on every single ex from the past 5-7 years (conservative estimate). If I dug deep, I think I could name them haha!
Confession: I have been that person. Did not give myself enough time between innings and one guy I saw briefly could almost name the breakfast habits of each of my exes. Shame on me. But, really, I just had not given myself time on my own. I now believe this is why I got messed up with the AC affair, because I saw relationships as a solution to the last one ending, some sort of justification or validation to the outside world or to myself, that it was the right decision, to end a relationship (because ‘see I have a new, better one now!’). Not a good scene, ladies. I really think you need a good 3-12 months between relationships (depending on how long it went for, how it ended, what the state of the rest of your life is, and how good you are to yourself.).
(Oh, and the AC showed me soft lens-style pics of his ex, of her in a garden, looking wistful etc, taken years after they broke up, but only weeks before we met. RED FLAG.)
We most definitely dated the same guy, Natasha. Except I was with him for a year and a half. He always told me every detail of his relationship with his exes. They were always “amazing”, “spectacular”, “hot”, “dynamite”…but he couldn’t ever, EVER tell me I was pretty. I listened to him go on and on about these women, and while I was still smitten with them I would think to myself, “Oh, what fools they were to not see his wonderfulness…” Wretch. Now I think, “If I had only known what these women knew, I wouldn’t have stayed with the ass so long!”
Some guys want to tell you how all the exes “done them wrong”, how THEY didn’t want the divorce, the exes are crazy bitches…Lesson learned: when they start talking about the ex at ALL (other than saying something like, “The kids live with my ex half the time”), and especially saying that she’s “crazy” zoom on out of there like a cartoon character (seat still spinning).
Very good advice Terry and everyone else here. Terry, he probably never told any of his ex’s they were pretty either, at the time. It is a no-win when those idiots do that [gush over the ex] ; if you squirm and look uncomfortable they think ‘she’s not confident’, if you blow it off; they think ‘gee I can get away with just about anything w/this one’. The only way to win in a crooked game, is not to play at all. I also think the reason we see so many EU’s not over the ex is because they did not do what we are doing; the hard work, the grieving, the learning and moving on. They just jump from one ego stroke to the other, hoping someone else can fix them. They should be fixed alright, but not in the way they are thinking [snicker, snicker]
Sarah/Natasha,
My EUM of almost two years (27 year old man) wasn’t even over his *4th grade* crush, who he was never actually with. Yes, it is quite disturbing (even more now being out of this)…during our time together he reached out to all of his exes “to see how they were doing” , regardless of whether they were married, engaged, had children, etc. He seemed puzzled that one of them did not keep contact with him after getting married (lol). I guess something should’ve clicked when I realized he had zero friends and the only “connections” left in his life were exes. In the words of Lynda from L: SERIAL.
You know it occurs to me you can predict(allow a little margin for error) when these guys are going to start ‘bigging’ up their ex or exes…it’s when they stop idealising you!
Common scenario, the EUM blows hot, gets you, feels the fear then starts to dismantle the pedestal you are on..
So whilst he’s looking at your feet of clay!!!(LOL),he starts to reminisce about his previous wife/girlfriends, sugar coating them, returning to when he idealised them.
In the process, you(if you let him) are managed by this behaviour? You might step up your game to compete or distance yourself. Either way, he’s in control, back in the EUM cock!pit once again.
I’m laughing here when I think about how my Ex would always refer to ‘how beautiful his wife looked in her wedding dress’ or his various ex girlfriend’s sports car/language skills/cooking…
he did it when I wasn’t behaving as planned!
The fact that he’d slagged then off relentlessly to me was immediately forgotten…honestly he had the emotional consistency of a bowl of rice pudding.
I know how it feels to be the “rebound” woman…at the time I didn’t really realize this–it was NOT a good feeling and I swore to myself that I would try my best never to get into such a relationship again. I don’t want to be someone’s emotional blanket, or the woman they come running to when the person they REALLY want isn’t available.
One of the things that hits me after reading this great article is it’s’opposite’ scenario.
Both the alky AC and my ex EUM seemed strangely over their exes, too soon, without a backward glance,slagging these women off into history.
I think I should have taken cognisance of that.
The alky had been married before he met me, albeit she had left him many times and returned. I picked up and ran with the baton, of rehab and caring,florencing..as if my life depended on it.
He truly did not miss her, nor me when I went. It was as if we had never existed. he seemed to be able to put it in a box, somewhere.
The ex EUM, had had several relationships like ours, future faking, nice things, companionship, never, ever any concrete action. It hurts to say that, but it is true today and I acknowledge the extent to which I bought into me being the exception to his rule. Lovely words, promises, no concrete behaviour.As our relationship went into demise, he was already trying to replace me on dating sites.
So my last two relationships have been with men, who did not take time to recover because saying’Next’ was an absolute rule of thumb for them.
I would love to say they were hurting but they weren’t. They recovered any self esteem loss by moving on quickly to the next woman, I was one of these women because of my own emotional unavailability.
It maybe they have demons to meet down the line, because whats left at the end of this but loneliness and angst?… Not my problem.
By getting involved with these men we perpetuate their lifestyles, we provide the proof that their relationship choices and styles are possible. We sleep with, socialise amongst and affirm them and in doing so we remove the word authentic from our daily lives.At great peril to ourselves.
In the last few months/years I’ve rescued myself from this peril, pretty successfully. I would not have chosen this journey tho’.
You know, we can go down the Narcissism route, the poor Attachment Style route, we can read self help books(great help sometimes), seek counselling…all good, and adds to recovery..however, there comes a time when we have to say’ What does this mean for me today(this hour), in my life’.
I mean, are we energised,curious,completed,content,revived,in awe of a relationship or are we depleted, sick at heart,confused,depressed and angry by a relationship.
He may be…
My next bit was simply to say he may be not over his last relationship, you may be still struggling with yours..? but your main duty is to”yourself’. How are you on a daily basis? How is your relationship with self. In these Recovering from Ex’s scenarios, a positive affirmative answer to that, ‘I’m sorting myself out, I’m important’ keeps everything right.
@ Lynda,
“I mean, are we energised, curious, completed, content, revived, in awe of a relationship or are we depleted, sick at heart, confused, depressed and angry by a relationship?” Great questions, Lynda, and a barometer for my future relationships. I don’t miss the gut-wrenching insecurity of being with the MM and the alky (we’ve “spoken” on this point). The sparkle just drained out of me and my self-esteem and confidence tanked. Major warning, I would say.
And I have to agree on your original point~both of these men high-tailed it away from me without so much as a backward glance. It’s hard to accept you are that easy to forget. I’M the one struggling to get over my uninterested ex and his lack of empathy.
I still feel those waves of sadness and surges of anger that Natalie refers to.
Everyday I focus more on me and putting time and space between us. Three months NC. My goal is to not care enough if/when he comes back in the spring to give away any more power to someone so undeserving.
Thanks, Lynda, for your post.
Perfect words, Lynda from L
Such wisdom, clarity, and truth, Natalie…what an amazing gift for getting through the seasons of healing and change in my life, Bless You for sharing so much of yourself in all this 🙂
I got totally future faked and it definitely took a while to see my ex’s still VERY toxic entanglement with his ex wife. He insisted he loved me, wanted to marry me, just needed time to sort a few things out if I could only be patient and understanding and put my needs on hold for a while more… until the very end, when I could no longer overlook the bountiful evidence that by sticking around I was buffering his pain and making it unnecessary for him to take some responsibility for his divorce and take some real steps to heal and move on. I fooled myself for a while there because I, like he, wanted to believe so badly that he was ready to move on. But he wasn’t, and though it still hurts I know opting out was the right decision. I had to tell him to stop calling me and bargaining with me, when there was zero evidence that anything was different. I thought (hoped) maybe he’d take some time to sort himself out and then get in touch once he was in a healthier place, but he didn’t. Perhaps he found another emotional airbag (brilliant term, btw).
I still struggle with having been and having let myself been used in this way, although it took 20/20 hindsight to realize that this is what was happening. In any case, I now know that even if he were the healthiest, happiest person on earth I still wouldn’t want to be with someone who a) runs away from his more difficult feelings b) doesn’t take responsibility for his role in relationship problems and c) is willing to say and do whatever it takes to feel better about himself and get his needs met (regardless of the cost to me). Yuck.
“In any case, I now know that even if he were the healthiest, happiest person on earth I still wouldn’t want to be with someone who a) runs away from his more difficult feelings b) doesn’t take responsibility for his role in relationship problems and c) is willing to say and do whatever it takes to feel better about himself and get his needs met (regardless of the cost to me).”
Well said, Izzybell! I’ve had to remind myself of this a few times as well: even if I remove my portion of ‘fault’ from things, there still remain some really undesirable character traits with this guy: he’s basically a selfish user. As much as it hurt, he probably did me a favour by showing me this side of him now rather than a few years down the line when I was even more invested.
I recently got asked out by a guy I barely know but we have mutual friends. I happen to know (from the mutual friend) that the last girl he dated is filing a restraining order against him because he won’t leave her alone. He doesn’t know I know this. I politely declined but my skin was crawling. It blows my mind that someone that caught up in an ex is asking other people out. He obviously has issues. I feel sorry for the next woman he asks out who doesn’t know the kind of crap this guy is about to heap on her. Yuk.
Years ago I did accept a date from a seemingly nice guy who turned into a basket case on our date, cried and sobbed about his ex (yes, on our date!) and told me about the restraining order she had on him. When I excuse myself from the date, he kept begging me to stay….but he kept calling me her name. CREEPY. Seriously, WTF? Even as he is telling me how messed up he is and still wrecked over his ex, he was asking me to stay. Flush, then flushed again to make sure the turd went down.
oh, good grief! they are all variations on the same theme but those are some pretty extreme examples! yuk indeed!
now that you mention it though, I do remember my ex crying into his fish tacos quite randomly one day, six months into our relationship, followed by some inappropriate anger that seemed to come out of no where. I didn’t really understand what was happening at the time, now I know better!
Then you’ll think “What? They’re telling me that they’re not over their ex! We were having such a great time but I obviously wasn’t good enough to make them forget about them. I feel so rejected! I just need some more time to show them!”
I love this ^^^ I had epiphany today that I *think* I can shoehorn into this topic – I hope it’s not too much of a prevarication but it might be.
My son’s father wasn’t over his ex, although to be honest he also wasn’t over his childhood, his birth, the invention of the lightbulb and possibly the Big Bang, as far as I can see. Recently (because I have to have him in my life, I endeavour to be friendly, I hate smiling and acting like nothing’s the matter when it is and we’re both a lot more resilient than we were) I had a massive roar at him about how awful he’s made me feel about myself over the last two years. He was sorry and sad and tried to help, but his response was basically “I didn’t mean to do it – it wasn’t about you at all”.
This helped a bit, to be honest, but did lead to a fair few *hmph thoughts along the lines of “well I’m never bloody important to anyone, poor maligned me, unfair life, cursed existence” etc etc etc. Then today I realised – it wasn’t about me but, really, everything that I went through with him wasn’t about him either. He’s nice enough on a good day, like, but he isn’t God.
It’s been about me and MY lack of self-esteem and MY need to prove my worth by winning the love of someone who really wasn’t remotely available and MY issues with my upbringing and the fact that it’s easier for ME to hang all MY issues on one thing/person like a coat-hook instead of going through them, questioning them and sorting them out.
I stayed hung up on him because *I* don’t really believe that anyone else’ll be interested beyond just wanting me for a casual relationship (rubbish, btw, I’m ace). I mourn the loss of our ‘friendship’ because it’s easier than facing up to the fact that the person that I was in that friendship – whilst being damn near to a saint O:) – wasn’t really me and isn’t particularly well-equipped to live life in the real world.
I know that this isn’t the case for everyone (not everyone gets involved with an EUM because they’re EU themselves etc) but it is marvellous to remember that while none of it was about me, none of it was about him, either. Even if it felt like it was.
(Thanks Nat. I have a suspicion that you’re saving me an absolute fortune in therapy!)
“My son’s father wasn’t over his ex, although to be honest he also wasn’t over his childhood, his birth, the invention of the lightbulb and possibly the Big Bang, as far as I can see.”
LOLOL!!!! Brilliant!
Yes, this is it, ace-lady, it’s not all about you, and it’s not all about them. If you make it all either one of you, you’re giving yourself or them far too much responsibility for the world, right down to Big Bang. You’re making every part of life a potential theatre to reenact and sort out your or their childhood, when sometimes it’s as simple as the fact that when we’re born we cry to be fed. It’s a lot lighter than all this. That’s not to say that people should not behave responsibly, but that’s different to assigning responsibility for every outcome or situation to yourself or the other. (You’re super funny and insightful, Y – hope you’re using that talent and those skills in other parts of your life).
youghurt… I loved your post! It made me laugh!
I agree. No matter how nice/good looking/intelligent/successful they are, they are not gods. No one is that special that we need to make them the centre of our universe!!
Thanks, lovely BR ladies 🙂
You know, it is very comforting and very healing for my self-esteem to realise that, as leaky and unsteady and uncomfortable as this little fallback boat might be, I’m in it with a group of such witty, wise and intelligent people as are on here.
I really do appreciate the opportunity to come on here and talk about these things with you lot.
Before reading BR, I was of the mindset that the best way to get over someone was to get under someone else… It was interesting to read this post because my Ex AC obviously thinks this way and I’m now the Ex. He started seeing a woman last year after being loyal to me for years of my PTSD/depression/anxiety. I often thought if the roles were reversed, I would have bailed much sooner than he did. When we met over 6 years ago I was the life of the party, independent, long distance runner with a full life. Then Bam – I was an agoraphobic wreck who couldn’t even work and started smoking cigarettes which is something he never would have signed up for in any woman. Anyway, I really couldn’t blame him for wanting a relationship with someone who was mentally healthier but it still hurt like hell and was the beginning of all of the relationshit insanity because I let myself be demoted to being the OW and continued having sex with him, etc., while she was now the official gf. He flat out told me that he knew the new woman wanted a relationship that led to marriage as well as other things that led me to ask after they broke up why he was with someone so incompatible. His response was “I just needed to be with someone who wasn’t you.” I’m sure the new gf would have loved that… Apparently, she knew something about me, though, because he told me that she attended an event where I was presenting and actually said to him “I don’t know what you still see in her when I’m so much prettier.” Eww.
Before my breakdown, we had an amazing time together and I know he would still rather have sex with me than anyone else. From conversations with him, he obviously still thinks about what could have been if I hadn’t fallen apart and what, maybe, someday could be again now that I’m getting my life back. He’s clear that he doesn’t have the same feelings to want to be both feet in with me again right now – and I’m still smoking, too, but he’s also clear he doesn’t want to lose day to day phone and in-person contact with me and his hold on the possibility I represent. (Very crazymaking.) The gist is, any unsuspecting woman he romances now is getting an AC who’s now also EU and committed to keeping a foothold in his Ex’s (my) life!
I just want to add that the new ex gf was probably feeling crazy from AC EU Not Over Ex words/actions like the rest of here because she obviously played Columbo to figure out the company I work for and where I’d be and showed up to check me out. (Unbeknownst to me.) I would have more sympathy if she hadn’t reported back to him with that ugly comment about how much prettier she was than me. She’s also his age which is 10 years younger than me which, if she knows, probably stymies her about why he didn’t choose her, too.
Fx…
Are you still In contact with this Man?
I was apalled when I read he told you that The New Gf says she is prettier than You…
What a creep,and to do knowing full well about your issues..
Oh honey Go No Contact with this Clown..
I too suffer from Mental Illness and have had a breakdown in the past,But that is No EXCUSE for you to be treated Less than,or not worthy..So You Smoke,So you have fears,So you had a breakdown…You are still a deserving person,You are worth more than this Ass…
I am sorry if I have offended you,not my intention….
I just saw Red…
Brenda
brenda,
I really appreciate your reply. In the context of the conversation, his repeating what she said wasn’t said to be hurtful and just made her seem pathetic for trying to win him back by saying that. I’m pretty much just normal garden variety crazy these days – excepting some recent over the top acting out…
You are right though, that I allowed myself to be treated as less than because I felt so much less than compared to my old self before the illness and I think I continue to allow a lot of amazingly bad behavior because he did stay with me and let me move in when I wasn’t working and couldn’t pay my mortgage and had to rent my place out, etc. And, as I said in another post, he’s the last man with whom I’ll be in a relationship who knew my old self and life… I thought I was the cat’s meow and I don’t feel that at all anymore. I obviously need to learn to love my new normal.
FX
If he wants to be with someone who isn’t you, that’s his right. Whatever his reason, good or bad. What’s not his right (except you gave it to him) is to sleep with two women, keep you on hold and insult you.
Your old self has gone. All our old selves have gone. No man now will ever know how I used to be. And that’s fine. Better things await, even better than my old self and your old self.
There’s a good chance that one day you may very well look back and realise your relationship wasn’t all that. Not even the sex. That’s been my experience. At the time it filled a need and seemed great, now not so much. It would no longer be good enough for me.
“Whan I was a child I thought as a child but when I became a man I put childish things behind me”. Applies to women too.
FX,
So he won’t commit to being in a relationship with you, but “he doesn’t want to lose day to day phone and in-person contact with me and his hold on the possibility I represent.” I’m sorry, but too f*cking bad for him! Please don’t give this guy the time of day–he’s either in or out, and he’s told you that he’s out. Sticking around so that he can have you as much as he wants you, all the while giving you nothing, is just going to leave you hurt and resentful and mess with your self-esteem.
Check out Nat’s article:
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/why-youre-nobodys-option/comment-page-1/
FX
I know how difficult it is but I’d try not to take your anger out on his new gf – you only have his word for what she said (and from the sounds of him he’s a grade-A liar) and whilst he’s able to focus your attention on her then he’s conveniently preventing you from being angry at the REAL cause of this… him.
HE’S the person without integrity or respect. HE’S the person who is quite happy to reap all the benefits of knowing you (and I’m sure there are lots) without putting anything back in. HE’S the person who abandoned you when you were low for someone who was glossier and required less commitment and investment. And now HE’S the one who is no doubt playing you off against each other, showing neither of you any consideration and conveniently setting you up to hate each other instead of the real villain… him.
She’s just a victim of this horrible-sounding dude. Neither of you are going to have a happy ending with this man… but you CAN take control of the situation and start building towards a happy future with someone who would rather walk through fire than cause you these feelings of inadequacy and despair. I would cut off all contact, he sounds like he’s poisoning your life and the heaviest chain-smoker in the world wouldn’t deserve to be treated like that.
(((hugs))) I know that you’re having a bit of a crisis at the minute but, to echo the advice of another poster, sit tight and seek help.
yoghurt,
Thanks for your reply. I don’t know why I’ve been feeling so anxious and out of control lately – I think I’m feeling broke and lonely and comparing my circumstances to the ACs and feeling rejected and foolish, too. Anyway, there’s no competition for his affections going on with that gf – when all this happened, she was already an ex but still contacting him.
Hey, FX,
First, I think that both the “wanted to be with someone who wasn’t you” and him passing on his gf’s catty comments were both appalling verbal jabs. The guy wants to be in contact, yes, but he also wants to “hurt you back” in some way, and it’s not acceptable. Do you want more of those zingers to remember?
Second, I’m way familiar with the “I fell apart and ruined my relationship” trope, sort of an exile from the garden of eden storyline. Lately, I’ve found myself getting angry about bearing that weight. I went along with the storyline, which was they were loving and giving and patient and I was impossible, disappointing, and misled them about how together I was. I have three major relationships after which these terrifically nice and patient people got to tell me how miserable I was or how I didn’t know how to live or they got tired of waiting for me to get my life together… and I took it because I believed that same story.
One ex — we broke up in 1997 (!) — called me 2 weeks ago to wish me a happy new year and briefly dipped into that territory. The storyline there is that he gave me every opportunity to make a terrific life but I was clingy and morose instead. But I started thinking, wait a second. I didn’t know the language, he was at clubs until 4 am 4 nights a week, he had many many close woman friends, and he wanted me to be similarly busy and outgoing whereas I wanted companionship and was also in culture shock (I’d moved overseas to be with him).
Why was the way he wanted me to be so right and the way I wanted him to be so wrong?
I go out with super-yang people and they shame me for not being like them. And I continue to shame and blame myself for the same, for years. And accept their after-the-fact wistful “if only you’d x, y, and z” statements of why I was so disappointing.
Maybe this is only tangential to you, but I have started having these rebellious thoughts of, why is being a quieter, less party animal, and more emotive nature so shameful? Are these people who “put up with so much” from me right? What if I got on my high horse and said, ‘Actually, you were so busy being busy you totally failed to step up to the emotional plate. My way of being is just as valid. My needs just as important.” I don’t *believe* that, but why do they get to believe that I let them down and not vice-versa?
ixnay,
You’re right that your way of interacting with the world is just as valid as anyone else’s and sometimes it’s just a bad fit between different personality types. In my situation, I changed 180 degrees against my own will. I used to describe it as feeling like I had an unwanted personality transplant. So, to him, I’m sure it was like a bait and switch. He fell in love with the high functioning, high energy personality I had been my whole life and then suddenly I became a nearly unrecognizable shell of my former self who could barely function. I couldn’t and didn’t want to accept being that way and went through the gamut of therapy, drugs, etc., to get my old self back. I know it was very difficult for those around me, too. BTW, I now believe it was a combination of hormones and an anxiety triggering event because I had no history and nothing seemed to help so I stopped trying meds and I just started to improve after menopause and the passage of time. I now even have a job that requires my real mega outgoing personality that I lost during that time! I’ll never be exactly as I was but I’m getting more OK with the new normal – do want to quit the smoking, though!
FX,
Are you me? (lol)..I had to read your post three times over because my mouth was hanging open in disbelief/horror as I was going sentence by sentence. The bubbly, loud, outspoken, and confident woman I was prior to meeting the d-bag started to fade once he had his hooks in. The exact things that he claimed he found so attractive about me when he met me “the passion, the energy, the convictions” were the EXACT things he tried to put a cap on as our relationship continued. As a matter of fact, he *resented* me for my energy and like a leech sucked it out until like you, I became the shell of the person I once was. I am slowly but surely starting to emerge from the darkness that I have been in and I thank God for giving me the strength to make it through without completely losing myself. Somewhere in there, the true me was fighting to hold on and I feel that slowly she is starting to come back. Everything happens for a reason and I truly believe that. Nothing in our lives happens out of coincidence, everything is a lesson. The Universe wanted me to know that it’s now time to focus on me and understand what brought me to my lowest, darkest point. It’s only better from here. Thank you ladies and fellas for being my therapists, friends, and cheerleaders 🙂
@Ixnay: I’m not sure whether those “party animal” guys really want a “party animal” woman. What they really want is somebody who isn’t like them and feels self-conscious about it. Those are the ones they can berate and put down.
Great comment Elly,
Been my experience too, ‘the difference’ that attracted them in the first place is the one they finally berate you with..
They return to their original idealisation of you, dismantle it to fit their justification….then follow the signposts to GoodGuyville again.
It’s their journey tho’, not ours.
Yes, I’m a man. My ex-wife sent me a link to this site.
My thought is that getting “over it” is aiming at the wrong target. My experience is that nobody ever gets ‘over it’, but we can – and some do – learn to live with it; happily, healthily.
As a young teenager I cut the tip off my left index finger. It is fairly obvious on first meeting someone that I am not entirely whole. Nonetheless, I dont feel particularly unhappy or unhealthy or in any way less than anyone else. I have simply adjusted to that part of my hand not being there, and got on with living.
I would tend towards the idea that emotional ‘issues’ are different but with significant similarities. That the loss of a significant emotional relationship *should* leave a hole, a place where something used to be that isn’t there any more. If it doesnt? … well, that would not be a sign, to me, that the relationship was as significant as I was making out.
(And I am reminded here that it was my ex who taught me my fave celeb line, from Madonna: “Sure, women fake orgasms: Men fake entire relationships!”)
Contextually appropriate disclosure aside, I dont see a great need, or great value, in pretending you’ve never been hurt, never experienced gut-wrenching loss, never monumentally shanked the poodle.
I believe we all live along a continuum of function/dysfunction, and that we should look out for warning signs that the person we’re contemplating is too far in the ‘dsy’ direction for a relationship to work.
But I dont believe you do yourself or anyone else a favour by cutting them off because they’re not some idealised incarnation of “totally over it”.
People who get totally over it strike me as seldom having ever been in it.
Read a few online dating sites. Read how many people disavow any interest in anyone with ‘baggage’.
Contemplate the reality that every real human being HAS baggage.
The emphatically stated desire to live with an idealised – i.e. unreal – archetype of a human being, rather than with a real human being, is sad, scary, and self-destructive.
Let you who are without baggage cast the first Jimmy Choo.
Whilst I think that in some ways you make a fair point – everyone has emotional scars and battle-wounds – I think you’ve missed the point of the article overall.
It isn’t saying that you should only date people who haven’t ever been hurt (which’d be approximately 0.000000000001% of the population, by my reckoning), but that you should avoid dating people until they’ve processed and healed from their old relationship. I think it’s also making a good point about avoiding taking on the responsibility for somebody’s else’s recovery because, after all, you can’t heal for someone else.
To use the metaphor of your finger – seeing as you brought it up – I’m sure that it isn’t any sort of an issue when you go on a date. But I’m sure that if it was a fresh cut and pumping blood all over the place then it would be. If you kept picking at it and opening it up so that it started bleeding on your date then I’m willing to bet that that might present a problem as well. If you talked about nothing but your finger or if you used your finger as an excuse to avoid commitment then I’d say that it was DEFINITELY something that you needed to deal with before you dated any more.
If your date then started beating herself up and blaming herself because she couldn’t make the tip of your finger grow back, then she’d probably not be in the right place for a new relationship either.
Losing the tip of your finger has changed who you are, in a small way, but it’s healed – it’s not taking up all of your thoughts or actively causing you pain (or at least I hope it’s not). In the same way, people might be and are changed by their relationships and their losses, but until it stops hurting them and distracting them from a new relationship then they still need time to heal.
Actually chortling with laughter in my bed – genius Yoghurt! I know some people that would blame a wonky pubic hair on their lack of commitment if they could…
Hehehehe… 😀
Pubic hair de-wonking? Used to be my speciality…
Thanks, you make excellent points.
And wittily, too, which I greatly admire.
Thanks 🙂
I notice that recently I’ve been using a lot of analogies about open wounds on this site… rather a dire reflection of my state of mind!
Nicely done Yoghurt. That’s what I love about the BR community. You brought Natalie’s message into even clearer, albeit graphic focus. And ScuzzaMan, you are great for recognizing it. I’m going to have a hard time sitting still again when a guy drags out a cell phone pic of his ex. Is all I’m going to see is “a fresh cut and pumping blood all over the place”. Even though I’ve been hurt, I want to make sure that I’m not picking at the wound and bleeding all over my date. I’ve been identifying with your use of open wounds!
In any event ScuzzaMan, I am glad your finger healed. Hope you will continue to comment. As a kid, I accidentally shut the car door and cut off the tip of my little sister’s middle finger. They managed to sew it back on but it’s still crooked. I think she’s forgiven me, healed, and moved on.
Off track, what does “ScuzzaMan” mean?
Yoghurt – that’s a great, great, great explanation! Reminds me of NML’s article, too, about being stuck in hurt. I am SO guilty of picking at the scab to keep the wound fresh and bleeding all over my date!! OMG my dates used to be like scenes from Quentin Tarantino movies! Or that gory red woodchipper scene from Fargo!! No wonder I attracted ambulance chasers!!
And: “My son’s father wasn’t over his ex, although to be honest he also wasn’t over his childhood, his birth, the invention of the lightbulb and possibly the Big Bang, as far as I can see.” That was me too!!
What a great visual! Ha ha ha! What a little aha moment!
The wounds must be closing up or else I don’t think I’d find this so hilarious! Comedy = tragedy + time, right?
Something must have changed. Maybe I finally let the gaping wounds close; finally let go of hoping that keeping the bleeding fresh could lead to conviction and sentencing of the long-ago offenders. Finally stopped thinking dating was an opportunity to hold up my spurting finger and be like, um, can you help with this?
I’ve managed to go on my recent dates without a) mentioning any of my exes; b) making any snide comments about my father and how he let me down in life, or c) hinting at the old bullying/sexual abuse experiences. You might think it’s obvious NOT to go there but it used to happen almost compulsively with me. Even when I tried to put a band-aid on my finger for first dates, it would eventually slip off – and ooops, another bloodfest!!
If I’m honest, I think my ‘baggage’ finger is at about 80% closed up. Still hurts a bit if I press on it, right? Still remember the habit of holding it up for sympathy, before I knew sympathy wasn’t love, and wonder if I can feel ‘seen’ or loved without holding it up.
But I now have a visual of a stub of a healed little finger. One day a new love might go, “Hey, what happened to your finger?” And I could say, “Oh, that? X, Y, Z happened.” Then he might say, “Oh. That must have sucked.” And I could say, “Yep. Now where are we going for dinner?”
Thanks genius Yoghurt (and s..man) for that!!
“Finally stopped thinking dating was an opportunity to hold up my spurting finger and be like, um, can you help with this?”
Thank you for a reciprocal “aha!” moment! I’ve only realised YESTERDAY that I do this… seriously. If you’d asked me why I wanted a relationship at any time over the last 15 years the honest answer (not that I would’ve EVER said so, of course) would be something like “Well, I want to feel better about certain aspects of my childhood and I want to have better self-esteem. Having a boyfriend will prove to the world that I’m a) hot b) not the person that got picked on in school and c) a worthwhile person. Oh, and I’d like to get over all my past relationships too while I’m at it, please”.
In my defence, I didn’t realise that that’s what I was after, but it totally was. No bloody wonder I’ve ended up in a mess.
Now, if you asked me that question, the answer would be “I want a relationship so that I can have a nice mate to beetle around and share things with, lots of sex and some encouragement, support and inspiration in looking into ways to live my life more fully and experience new things. But, in all honesty, right now I cba and I want to get myself to a point where I can push MYSELF so that I’m living more fully and experiencing new things. So I’m not even sure that I do right now but thanks anyway”.
I think that’s better. It FEELS better. And it actually makes sense and is sensible so it already has the edge!
scuzzaman
I get what you’re saying but it’s not really about looking for the ideal. There is a difference between ‘history’ and ‘baggage’ – baggage which is going to get n the way of the healthy progression of a new relationship.
I also know what you mean about people who get over their ‘heartbreak’ not really having been ‘in it’. I have often commented to friends on how sorry and sad I had felt for someone’s else’s marriage break-up or even sudden widowhood only to hear within a matter of months how that same person was ‘engaged’/stepping out again with a new ‘partner’. I have often been taken aback by this, and even felt a bit cheated by how sad and sorry I had felt for the person because I would know that I would not get over and get on again that quickly and so have wondered if they were never really ‘in it’ with the one they had lost. I now hold off a bit with the pity party for recently broken up people!
While I haven’t changed my mind about some of these people I’m talking about, I also now see that I am one of those who tend to cling to my grief and loss way past its sell by date!
I think we absolutely should ‘get over it’. Not erase from our memories, but learn from it and move on – sooner rather than later!
So, for me I have no problem with people who have been hurt, but I sure do have a problem trying to start a relationship with someone who is not emotionally up for it, for whatever reason. It’s about emotional availability – if they are not ready – they are not ready. Why bash your head off a brick wall on the grounds that we shouldn’t be biased against brick walls cos we have all been a brick wall at one time or another. I’ve had enough of busting my guts trying to scale the emotional Alps (as a BR reader once described this stuff) only to end up in a big emotional mess – that I am still cleaning up a year and a half later.
Natalie; I really appreciated this explanation about the difference between empathy and sympathy. Although, I had to read it a couple times to really really get it,lol. I admit there was a time when he and I both decided that we both needed time to sort things out…especially when he was reaching out to me(after I’d achieved 1yr NC & was proud of myself) and I was still not trying to hear him really…but I can say that I did see his attempted to see my side and his attempt to explain somethings to me.
However, I also agree with the thoughts that there is possibly more to what a person is actually grieving at a time; it’s not just solely their current loss(ex-lover/companion/friend/absentee father/) but possibly a number of losses or “compounded pain” from something in their pasts which makes the current loss/any additional losses more profound and almost impossible to overcome at the stage of the final whammy/blow hits(at least that is what I got from it). So basically the current loss( a simple breakup) is really not as deep as it appears(which, I agree, know one actually died this time),but, it’s all the losses combined (previous deaths of loved ones/broken relationships b4 that one, and the one b4 that one, & the one b4 that1.etc.) that a person has to empathize&acknowledged to allow for healing and if possible allow reality to come about for the other person… I agree too!!
LOVE the analogy of the open wounds!! Awoke the other morning with a burning hot, painful, golf ball size lump on my ass! After urging of my nurse friend to seek medical care, (I had cried to her and sent a picture to her from my phone–hee hee). I discover it was an abscess. VERY PAINFUL and quite consuming of my thoughts and attention. LOL!! Now Natalie has me curious as to what Louise L Hay would say about this particular diagnosis. This is what an abscess means: Fermenting thoughts over hurts, slights and revenge. Hmmm…. Try taking this elephant in the middle of the living room on my fanny out on a date …
Bahaha,lol :-), OMG, lord help this soul!!
You know right…that Fanny means something entirely different to us Brits!! I am ending myself here…!
Oh MY!! I just looked up what that meant and my apologies! That is NOT where that “elephant” is! Its amazing the things you will learn on BR. 😉
LMB&AO,
ADELE-Set Fire to the Rain!! Nice song!!
http://youtu.be/FlsBObg-1BQ
http://youtu.be/8hm2E58P_dc
“SET FIRE TO IT ALL!!” LOL, It’ll be ok!!
I´ve learned this the hard way. My best friend, with whom I´ve had everything (we´ve done everything couples do except the sex for a very long time, then recently slept together), has now cut me off completely (with a strong wish that we meet again as friends in the distant future). So that he´d no longer be holding me back from moving on while he sorts himself out. His breakup – which came out of the blue for him – happened almost two years ago.
I hear you keep saying that he´s just not that special, but in this case he is. He´s not a regular guy, for better or worse. And he´d walk through fire for me. Meeting him has changed how I meet the world and how I experience life, for the better. I love him in a completely different way from how I´ve loved others. Maybe he´s prepared me – I wasn´t over my bad breakup when I met him either – for real love. Maybe he´s cured me of my own emotional unavailability. I just really wish it would be us, someday. And I need to stop wishing for that. He´s cut me off; I think, to let me back in when I no longer wish for that.
He keeps dating, pretty manically, to see if he can find someone that he can fall so madly in love with that he can let go of his fear of commitment, a fear so deep-seated I would be surprised, but happy for him, if he was able to overcome it.
I really wish him all the best, and I´m grateful for what he´s been to me over the past years. But I feel as if I´m suddenly poor, as if the world is blander, as if I´d just been told that this year, January will last for a long time and we don´t know if the summer will come, but we certainly hope it will.
Sorry Em – I actually choked on my lunch when I read your comment and *had* to say something. I don’t know if this man is slipping chloroform over your face or putting rohypnol in your drinks, or if you’re living on an island that I don’t know about where everything is back to front, but you are under a serious spell with this man. I am appalled that this man has cut you off, not once, but *twice*, which is essentially pulling the same con numerous times, and you’re here championing him like he’s the Messiah. “He’d walk through fire for me.” I’d read this and all of your previous comments back. Nothing about what you have written says walking through fire – more like shagging you and throwing you back in the fire and then telling you that he needs to cut you off for your own good. You’re basically saying he’d toast his ass in a fire but he won’t commit to you? I need to bless myself.
He’s not a “regular guy”, I’ll agree with you there – he’s an asshole and a manipulative, emotionally vacant, lacking in empathy one at that. He hasn’t cured you of your emotional unavailability – you’re in love with a man who is unavailable…. Why is it that I feel horror for this piece of shit putting you out for your own sake, and yet you don’t? It’s like “Farewell my darling. Meeting you was bitter sweet and we must be parted. I realise that I’m so special that you won’t be able to shag, keep your mouth shut, and more importantly keep your feelings in check. Mind you, I am pretty damn special in spite of the fact that I have the emotional capacity of a stone. There there now. Be a good girl and go and live your life. I will come back one day to see if you’ve learned your lesson and will no doubt try and sleep with you again, because you should know by then that I am who I am. Obviously if you don’t…then I’ll cut you off again.”
It’s not often I say this, but Em, you need to sit down and make an appointment with a professional as a matter of urgency. You are too relaxed about being treated poorly under the guise of friendship and cheerleading him while he’s at it.
Em
“we’ve done everything couples do”
What would that be – make plans, move in together, get married, have babies, integrate into each other’s families, stick with each other through sickness, redundancy, house moves, crap holidays and grocery shopping, HAVE SEX, grow old together, put each other first, be faithful, be loyal, commit, not date other people?
Walking through fire isn’t on that list. Summer will return. And so will this clown like a bad penny. Get rid of him.
You will not move on unless you do.
I really hope he’s prepared you for one thing – to be able to recognise his kind again and run in the opposition direction.
Em,
I too, as well as many women on this site, am in shock.
Your story reminds me of one of the old re-run episodes of ‘ Friends’
(irony not intentional).
It’s the one where Phoebe tells Joey that she’s just finally slept with a guy who has being pursuing her, but they’ve agreed that he won’t speak to her again…she applies some effed- up hippy logic to this? I love Phoebe, but c’mon….
And Joey(filled to the brim with EUMdom )says sg like;
‘Who is this guy, he’s my hero, he has just slept with you and agreed never to contact you again!!’
Em, you feel blander and poorer in your words, because you’ve been hanging around with this swine. The absolute first thing to do is stop calling him your ‘Best Friend’.
How does feeling like you feel today, this minute, prepare you for real love. Real love is not angst,withdrawal,desperation and futile longing. It’s feeling secure and going somewhere.
Nat’s call about the counselling is good one.
He’s dating manically??? You give a reason for this, which I suspect he has spoon-fed you. Em, he is dating in this way because he is EUM/AC, for the same reasons that he got into and out of your bed.
I am in awe of his brass neck. I hope someone shines it to brilliance so that other women can see him coming!
Keep on reading the posts here, please.
Lynda
Full marks to Joey!
Sometimes it’s worth running these stories past a friendly male ear. Men, even EU ones, can often get it a lot faster than we do.
Absolutely G, ‘ Bread and Butter’ comes to mind…
good comments ladies, Em, my Mr EUM, has done the same thing to me..we had a huge fight which ended things in a bad way, but prior to that i was agreeing to his ‘5 months of no contact’, esentially he wanted a break from me and i agreed to it. he wants me to find someone else, had told me , but of course i was way too into him to think about someone. he also told me, he didnt love me and wanted to fish around for other women, (i ignored it too) he hopes our NC would mean that i would move on and that it would be best for me. he wants to get rid of me, tried some tricks a year ago to get me to go away. but slept with me for 2 years. the point is, Em, he tries to convince you that he’s doing you a favour by getting you to move on. he’s doing you a favour, but he’s doing it in an asshole way, which means he’s a Asshole. your low confidence and self esteem means you don’t realise this. but you will in time. from what i said about me and my situation, i lowered myself so badly, and stood up for him. you will overcome things, but dont live in fantasy and acknowledge the reality.
“Maybe he´s prepared me – I wasn´t over my bad breakup when I met him either – for real love. Maybe he´s cured me of my own emotional unavailability.” Good grief – he’s made you way sicker now!!!
When you’ll manage to get some distance, your blinkers will come off and you’ll be able to see it for what it was: he USED you. Take care of yourself.
Tania: ” Good grief – he’s made you way sicker now!!!”
I wholeheartedly agree, but I think I understand where Em comes from. In the past, I didn’t only believe I “failed” in my relationshits with EUM and AC, I also believed I “failed” by NOT getting involved with some other toxic guys.
I thought rejecting them was part of my emotional unavailabilty. I told myself if I could learn to put up with even more BS, I would finally become “available”.
Hadn’t I been “emotionally unavailable” to my parents by hating them for their emotional and sexual abuse? Wasn’t I responsible for my own unhappiness as a child? Shouldn’t I have been more patient and generous with momster and dadster?
Of course not, but a horrible childhood can turn a person’s world upside down. I guess I still sound somewhat crazy to any healthy person. I still believe a lot of BS about myself, and I still make crazy excuses for other people’s crimes. But as a child, under those circumstances, I had to resort to that kind of thinking. Anything else would have killed me (facing the truth about momster and dadster while I was a helpless child might have driven me into suicide – I’ve always been considering suicide as an option since I was 7 or 8 years old).
Unfortunately, this kind of thinking becomes a lifelong habit. It can be changed, but it requires a lot of hard work.
Sorry to hear about all this, EllyB!!! It took me a while to get that too: it was only when my experiences with my ex AC/EUM left me in such a state (my body physically shut down for 3 days) that I realised I couldn’t let myself down anymore and it was time to say ENOUGH. And then…I found BR, to help me understand that I wasn’t going mad, that there are so many women out there with the same problem. These men come and go, unburdened by all the mess they leave behind. They don’t care. That’s why we have to care for ourselves. We own it to ourselves!!
I too just read Your Story,And it made me Very sad!
It’s like,”Oh thank you for giving me some miniscule pieces of crumbs to manage me down”..There is one thing about not intentionally wanting to hurt someone,and quite another when they know EXACTLY what they are doing…
I have a Male freind,who I have known for years,Lately we kind of been hanging out,going for coffee,lunch,he comes for coffee etc..
He has always made it clear to me his preference is a woman who is much younger(he is 55),very skinny,blonde and high Maintenance.None of his relationships work out…..
Anyway the other night,A weight watchers commercial came one,and he says to me”You could really benefit from that”…….I was in shock..ThisMan is always trying to get me in Bed,says some pretty nice thing to me for the most part,and then turns around and says something like this to me(Btw I have lost 50 pounds and look great}..He turns it around to make himself look good by saying he is just worried about my life!!!!wtf…He is no freind,just like this Man in your life,is no freind,I deleted this person from my life,He brings nothing to my life,Just like this Assclown brings nothing to yours,Dont mistake his words for caring,If he was so caring,You would not be hurting,Move on Honey…….
Much Hugs…
Brenda
brenda , i have a male friend too that always brings me down. MR EUM is out of the picture, but this male friend is like the smiling assassin. would tell me im shaggable, would tell me that other friends has said why he doesnt just screw me. sarcastically comments on my pictures . he has a problem with all my pictures, comments that im ‘gross’, ‘ick’…just generally has nothing good to say. accuses me of wanting attention, making drama. he does all this with a smile. i thought i could tell him my problems and gain a male perspective, but he just makes fun of it , and brings me down negatively. i have honestly not attracted any good males in my life, friend or otherwise. the sad thing is i dont know what a good guy looks like..i let things go, i ignore bad behaviour from men. its funny that im realising this now, if i take this male friend as an example, i could be in a relationship with this type of man. like you, i’ve been hanging out, going for coffee.not to mention that this guy makes tons of money and doesnt have a 9-5 job. he’s a man of leisure, yet in the two years i have known him, he’s never bought me a coffee…and here i am stupidly opening my wallet for a man that doesnt give a shit. he’s also had a two year affair with a married woman and didnt care that this woman was married with children. slowly , but surely, everything is making sense in my life and the toxic people are becoming obvious.
Jasmine,
Jesus! Is this guy still in your life????
thanks for asking allison, he’s FLUSHED as of today.. i forgot to say he had an affair with a married woman for 2 years. he’s an ass. i mean business now. any toxic friend or otherwise that comes in my life treating me like crap, is going to be flushed away
Em, I’m gagging over here … the stench of this guy’s bs is so strong it travels through the webiverse and my eyes are watering up. Ew, ew, ew.
As someone who has herself been served the same bs in a cup, and called it chocolate ice cream and ate it up, I cringe to remember how someone could tearfully tell me they were “setting me free” or “having to let me go” “for my own good” and I bought it. Hell, I thanked them for it.
I had never been truly treated both respectfully and intimately by a guy my age, nor did I fully know how to respect myself, so I didn’t recognize this bs for what it was, as you are not recognizing it.
I wish someone would have told me then what the ladies here are telling you now. That I had been used. You have been used.
But only people who genuinely don’t want to use you will tell you that. Most of my friends back then were subtly using me, too, so … I had to get into a few more AC relationships (where they cared so much for me!! right!?) … and eventually figure it out myself.
You talk about this guy the way my grandmother used to talk about the televangelist that eventually took almost $100K from her (her total life savings, when she was an unemployed senior woman) without even a thank-you card and then eventually the church shut down, ‘setting her free’ to go to another church. She never stopped singing that guy’s praises.
As someone who has herself been served the same bs in a cup, and called it chocolate ice cream and ate it up
Magnolia! I am in stitches laughing!
Some of the worst offenders are the ones that come un under the radar and screw you over while smiling. Smiling assasins!
Usually when they’re gone, you realise what happened and then erupt in anger…
I think, Em, that whilst this is a ‘nice’ version of events for your ‘friend’ to give you, and whilst he obviously feels that he’s doing you a favour by painting the situation in a happy positive light, the truth is that you don’t feel very good about it.
If he genuinely had fixed you, solved your problems and left you a better person than when he found you then you wouldn’t be beetling about on a blog about healing a broken heart, you’d be out and about and living life to the full and forgetting about him. When an experience is fundamentally good and happy then you just let go of it and move on, pausing only occasionally to think “that was nice” before carrying on being happy and thinking about other things.
There’s a post on here somewhere about it being much harder work to accept a lie than it is to accept the truth. He’s put a nice positive spin on it but the fact is that he’s treated you shabbily and it is hurting you and you know what? That’s okay. It’s happened to the best of us and you can survive it. Accept that it’s not very nice behaviour, that he’s been weak, selfish and uncaring, that he’s not the person you thought he was and that you feel heartbroken and let down by it.
If you don’t then I suspect that you’ll end up beating yourself up for NOT being able to accept it and thinking that there’s something inherently wrong and selfish about YOU for being sad (which there isn’t, by the way, it’s a pretty normal and fair response!)
If you do then it’ll bash your ego for a while but ultimately you’ll learn from it, heal from it and move on with your perception of reality intact. It’s the hard steep rocky path but ultimately, it’s the better one that leads to a happy life. The nice smooth ‘true-love-means-setting-someone-free’ path goes round and round in circles and ends up being VERY tiresome.
Hi Em,
Your story made my blood run cold because it reminded me so much of what I put up with myself. I allowed myself to believe an illusion that the man was ‘special’, not a regular person, my best friend, confused about his feelings etc. He deliberately dodged defining our relationship, committing to anything, doing anything he didn’t want to do, giving me any real physical affection whilst creating an illusion that we were soul mates, best friends, that I was the closest relationship he had ever had etc etc (add in more bs) by effectively using me as his counsellor.
It will come as no surprise that it ended very badly and I felt that I had been denied the reward of a proper relationship and was being punished for something. It felt like an incredible injustice. I have now been NC for 3 months and though it felt unthinkable at one time, it is absolutely the best and only way.
Nat’s advice about seeing a professional is bang on. I saw a counsellor to try and understand why this relationship wasn’t working and why I couldn’t get what I wanted from him. She was horrified by what was happening and described it as abusive and an extreme example of a skilled manipulator. This insight really helped me to take off the rose coloured specs. It took a while to believe it because I didn’t want to believe. But I got there in the end and I’m sure you will too. You have to take responsibility for yourself, recognise that he can only hurt you if you let him and do something to stop it.
Good luck love x
Polly
That resonates with me and will with a lot of us. When I was describing one of my exes to my counsellor, he said to me “I’m mystified as to why you would allow yourself to be treated this way”.
That was bad enough. What was worse – I had been singing my ex’s praises – how special he was, what a great relationship we had, he was my first love etc etc! That was a wake up call.
FBGs have an extremely warped perception of what special is.
Yes we do Grace. Thats the thing that I have noticed has changed about me, I no longer sing any of my ex’s praises, even to myself and that is from reading BR. Now what is a minor dilemma is when someone asks me why I’ve been divorced 12 years, I dont know how to tactfully answer that. I do think its a valid question but how do I explain my unavailability and very poor choices over the years in a brief yet non damaging explanation.
Yes. I still have this kind of thinking about MM too. I told my Mother the story and she said “You must be very angry”. I said I wasn’t. She said “You will be”. I said no. She said “Oh well make him the good guy all the time then!”. She was annoyed. I have kept thinking he is special, unique, sensitive, superintelligent, etc etc. “Romanticising”. I still have fantasies that when I am over it, we can be friends, although those kinds of thoughts and desires are definitely dying down after 7 weeks NC. I almost think I am frightened to feel angry, because that would mean really acknowledging that he made a fool of me – and by allowing it I made a fool of myself.
mymble
not as frightening as spending years in denial. it’s such a WASTE of time. It’s better to acknowledge the truth, weep, hurt and get over it than spend x years denying the truth and STILL have to weep, hurt and get over it. It’s gonna happen. Better sooner than later.
SM,
That is a really rude question. I mean how would one answer a question like that!
Also, It is no one’s business why you have been divorced for 12 years. See that question for what it is!
“we´ve done everything couples do”
Couples commit.
Just thought I’d ask what all you Wise women think about Online Dating and it’s capacity to give ‘Refuge’ ie. the appearance of ‘Being Over’ an Ex to many men(and women)?
Seems to me that the jaunty message and accompanying smiley face may be hiding a multitude of sins.
I know that my only foray into dating sites, several years ago, made me ‘feel’ that I was out there,(In retrospect, I was still wearing the sticking plasters!) and a couple of the guys I met were seriously grieving wives/girlfriends. Back then,as a Florence I went down the sympathy route, two hours therapy and then scarpered…
It maybe that if I considered it again, after BR and wiser… I’d weed these guys out. Not sure. Any views from the coalface on this one?
Lynda, online dating is like any other venue to meet people. You can meet a scoundrel at the grocery store! That said, you do need to be careful, spend more time getting to know someone, ask the right questions, take your time, and get as much info as you need before jumping in emotionally, no matter where you meet someone. The very first time I did online dating, I was absolutely not ready and it was a horrible, degrading experience. But mostly because I was too raw and had bad red/amber flag filters and the rejection killed me even when I didn’t like the guy! Talk about needing validation!
I met my current boyfriend on match. He looked like a total player so I was very slow in responding to him (especially since I found him attractive, always more dangerous). So I moved slowly, 4 dates over several weeks (he kept asking me out, I kept pushing him off…Me: um, I am moving, I will be available in two weeks kind of thing…and two weeks later he would call for his date!), minimal texting, definitely a slow cooking situation. I did almost take him to the end of his limit though, I think he was giving me one last chance to act interested….We are going on six months and we are both in love, our whole relationship is based on kindness, respect, and love. So I am a fan of online dating IF you are in a good emotional place for it AND you can absolutely handle the amount of rejection that inherently comes with it. I don’t think there are more asses on online dating, I just think you are exposed to a much larger pool, so the ass quotient does go up. That’s why we screen well and move slowly….
Hi Lynda from L
I met my EUM on eHarmony, but I agree that you can meet an AC or EUM anywhere. My problem was that it was my first time trying online dating and I met him within 2 weeks of using it. We communicated for only a short time, then we exchanged numbers and started dating. I liked him because he was good looking, affulent, funny, took me to nice places, stayed over at his place he even trusted me with his front door keys. He turned out to be a future faker to the highest level (told me he was taking me holiday for Xmas), spoke about having more children, strung me along, managed me by text, we only met up at his convenience, consistently spoke about previous girlfriends and how many women he had dated and how they were either crazy or gold diggers. After nearly two months of dating him he stood me up one lovely Saturday afternoon (whilst I was all dressed up with a new hair do lol) and then just disappeared. He texted me to say his sister went into early labour and HE needed to take her to the hospital. I’ll never forget how small I felt on that day because I had pumped him up sooo much and despite his good looks, 3 homes, nice car, good job and all the rest, he is a coward. He went NC on me ! I was a mess, then found BR.
The reason I’m repeating all this is to you is just to make you aware that there are guys on these websites that seem to good to be true, so as NML says you must date with your self esteem in tow! I didn’t!
Give it a go, you can always consult with us on here if you meet someone, collectively we all have enough experience with EUMs and ACs to give you the right advice. 🙂
Flower white, Grace I dont take kissing seriously either. But I do take it as a real problem when a guy asks me on a date, and then doesnt appear to want to kiss me on said date, especially if we’ve been out more than once.
I just met a great guy, and we’ve had a few dates. He’s actually kind, intelligent and thoughtful. He seems to think a lot of me, as well. Alas, he received an invitation to his ex’s wedding in the mail yesterday. I think many people would be at least a little bothered by that. But (of course, there’s a but), later on he felt compelled to show me a picture of her and absolutely *gushed* over how gorgeous she was and how could he not have wanted to marry her. Oh man, talk about disappointment! Now I have to be strong enough to forget about it all. (Where ARE the available men???) But I was proud that, thanks to this site, I at least am able to see things for what they are, thus avoiding a lot of heartache. I am concerned over my ability to not “entertain” the thought of hanging out with him and *attempting* to just be friend, though = setting myself up for failure that way, methinks.
I mentioned earlier that my ex EUM consistently spoke about previous girlfriends and dates. He would say that so many stunning women wanted to date him, or so many gold diggers want to date him but he wasn’t interested. He would mention women that had broken his heart in the past but always end the sentence with “I’m over her anyway” and continue to boast about his accomplishments. Clearly he wasn’t “over her” but this behaviour made me uncomfortable and was one of the many red flags that I failed to act on. I allowed all his talk about previous girlfriends to make me feel slightly insecure because he would always use the words stunning or gorgeous or highly educated. Although he would always say to me your very beautiful I just think he said that to every woman!
My point is, that self esteem is so very important and its the valuable lesson I have learnt with my experience. When I met him I thought I was in a good place (e.g. had healthy self esteem and enough confidence) obviously I wasn’t because at the first sign of his egotistic/narcissistic behaviour I should have flushed him instead of thinking he was the best thing since sliced bread!
I am just so in awe of Yoghurt’s bleeding finger analogy. The literalness of it really gives you clarity. With my last relationship, he talked of the bleeding finger, picked it, flung it around, got blood on me, his kids, took it to bed with us, etc. etc. ad nauseam, and when I said something about it, he asked me to “kiss it”. “I just need you to be compassionate, understanding, loving, I’ve been hurt, blah blah blah …” all the while I’m getting blood all over me. And then when I say “ENOUGH! Stop bleeding on me!”, he was angry!
Never in a million years would I have stood there and allowed this man to fling blood from a gaping wound all over me but figuratively, that is just what he did. Its just as disgusting.
And I add what I allowed.
Me too, LoJ. At least we have the opportunity to learn this lesson and know the gory signs for next time.
My ex just wrote me a letter to tell me how hard it’s been for him to deal with his life alone these past 7 months, and how he doesn’t understand why I don’t want to have any contact. In other words, it’s nice to have a human mop around but he still won’t admit his finger is even bleeding!
“Human mop.” LOL!!!!!!!
Thank you so much for having the heart to help those who hurt, or are being hurt by being “Unavailable” or the “Fallback.” I’ve walked in both roles one time or another and I’m learning a lot about myself, my past and where I want to go from here. Thank you again for sharing….