Do you know what stubbornness is? It’s doggedly holding onto a position in spite of compelling arguments or reasons to do so. Sometimes it is as simple as recognising that you continue to hold onto thoughts or pursue a course of action that has a net result of leaving you feeling bad about yourself and generates poor results.
Through Baggage Reclaim I come across some incredibly stubborn people who in spite of the existence of very compelling reasons, they take a stand that says “I know that this isn’t working for me, but it’s not for the very obvious reasons why it’s not working; it’s obviously something to do with me and even though these are things that are actually outside of my control, I’m gonna flog this donkey till it collapses because I just know that this has something to do with me not being good enough.” Really, it doesn’t.
You know that the fire burns or that you invariably get run down when you step out in front of oncoming traffic. Yet there you are putting your hand in the fire and expecting it to hug you, or retreat, and basically change its whole nature, or you’re running in front of cars and expecting them to screech to a halt even though its far too late. “I’m not moving! You move!”
Stubbornness can get you into a whole heap of trouble and take you down a path that you were never truly meant to be on.
I’ve met so many people who stuck with someone out of dogged determination, not because they truly loved them, but because it became this challenge to achieve the validation that came with ‘winning’ or at least clobbering them into relationship submission. Where are these people now? Miserable.
Why force it? The good in life is never going to arise from the results of trying to bend people to your will.
Why force it? Are you really going to feel good about something that you obtained through brute force?
- If you brute force someone into taking you back, how can you ever trust and feel secure that they’re with you because they genuinely want to be?
- If you brute force someone into retracting a previous opinion of you, how can you be truly secure and trust that their opinion is actually the one you want them to have? What are you going to do? Climb in their head?
- If you brute force someone into committing, is it going to actually feel like mutual commitment in a mutually fulfilling healthy relationship?
Be very careful of maintaining your position of stubbornness – your dogged determination would serve you better being applied to developing you than trying to Jedi mind trick someone.
When you keep trying to force things in life, not only do you miss out on the lessons that these experiences are trying to teach you, but you force yourself and your life in a direction that it is not intended which invariably brings up unintended consequences.
You get so focused on looking at the trees instead of the wood, that it never occurs to you to think about what you’re actually going to do or how you’re going to feel once you’ve accomplished your mission?
Working at a relationship and forcing a relationship are not the same thing.
The fact that you may be involved with someone who doesn’t share mutual ground with you on the direction of your relationship, or something as basic as your core values, means that by persisting in trying to force things, you’re imposing your values and self upon them.
A difference in core values creates distrust, as does the sense that someone is unwilling to respect what another person’s values are. People trust people who share similar values. You’ll also find that people have mutually fulfilling relationships with people who they share similar values with – a difference of core values always shows itself in the reflected results, no matter how much horniness, chemistry, and common interests there are.
And let us not forget that as you can’t control others (unless you’re abusive which is a whole other issue), this sense of being in control of things while you’re stubborn is actually an illusion of control. You could actually have control of the things you can control (that would be you), if you weren’t so busy sticking with beliefs, habits, and behaviours that undermine you.
Let.It.Go….especially if you keep going back again and again and again to the same crappy situation and you keep thinking that this time things will be different and that you will get them to make you the exception to their rule of behaviour. Pride comes before a fall…but so does stubbornness.
There is nothing wrong with admitting that you’ve made a mistake and that a relationship that has two people in it, hence you can’t be a perfectionist blame absorber and make it all about you, didn’t work. It doesn’t make you a failure nor does this have to become what defines you for the rest of your days…unless you want to devote your life to ego servitude trying to remove what you think is this indelible mark on your life resume.
What many people don’t realise, if is they stopped being stubborn, they could actually be getting on with their own lives and be available for better, happier opportunities that they don’t have to practically use a battering ram for.
When you stop forcing things and in essence trying to control the uncontrollable, not only can you put your focus back on you where it’s supposed to be, but you finally get to start seeing you, what you stand to learn from your experiences and how you can apply it to make better choices for yourself in a more clear light. Right now, when you persist in maintaining a position that is actually working against you, what is actually blocking your way…is you.
Your thoughts?
Check out my book and ebook Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl which is chock full of ‘forced’ relationships in my bookshop.
Add to favorites
Natalie… Your post so inspire me … I really wish u were in the US because I would love to attend one of your seminars :)… Is a new book coming out soon ???? I am 52yrs old.. The AC has shattered my world and I know I am partly responsible for not setting stern boundaries and putting up with unacceptable behavior at times. Dating at 52 is alot different than dating in your 20’s or 30’s.. I look around and think YUK 🙂 I am boycotting dating sites for the rest of my life. That is where I met the AC years ago and I peaked recently and some of the same men are still on there from before.. another YUK… I am trying to build a new life without the AC.. Its so hard but making progress slowly… I just want the heartache , dissapointment in him and the sadness to go away forever. I know I have to do the work on myself to heal but sometimes I get so discouraged.. I then come to your site and read thru some of the post and have some AH-HA moments. Thanks for sharing with all of us .. Good Luck on your upcoming wedding …
KitKat,
I agree, it definitely is more difficult to date in your 50’s. I’m 54, I met my ex husband when I was 19 and was with him a total of 29yrs! There is a distinct lack of emotionally available men out there as they too have probably come out of long term relationships.
But since discovering this site i’ve also come to realise that I too have been unavailable, as are many women.
You just don’t realise it until your nose is rubbed into it!
I’ve learned a lot over the past 7yrs and am still learning now!
Luckily for me I have a very busy social life so find it easier NOT to make any one person the centre of my universe! That is VERY important!
We need to take care of ourselves….all the best to you x
I have to say that I am surprised to hear people who have come out of LTRs or marriage say that they are unavailable… I would have thought that their LTR/Marriage was holding together because they knew how and had the skills and knowledge of how to make a LTR work…
I am so glad for this blog. I’m well and truly out of the baddie zone and now ready to date again! Dating ban ends!!!
@tired_of_assanova
“I am so glad for this blog. I’m well and truly out of the baddie zone and now ready to date again! Dating ban ends!!!”
Congrats T! I found this not only inspiring but also uplifting … really happy for you!
I’m not there yet,…long way … yet, BUT it is really nice to see someone “get there.” 🙂 🙂
Thank you! 9 months! NC, NC Mail, Intensive therapy costing $1000 + over 9 months, NC Book, NMLs books, reading BR every day, building friendships, going out more, dating and sex ban.
The turning point was when I saw the AC with their new victim on 1 January. Haven’t looked back since!
I feel like I have a pattern of alternating between being emotionally available and then not. My first live-in boyfriend was an absolute prince. After him came my first AC. Then I met my ex-husband, a man I still have a lot of love and respect for, and I met my second AC shortly after I separated from him. It’s been almost 2 years since we broke up, and at 47 I haven’t found a lot of men who interest me, but recently I met someone who seems great, and who would have scared me with his emotional honesty even a year ago when I was still unavailable.
I think circumstances can make one temporarily unavailable emotionally, but there is a lot of pressure to be in a couple, so we tend to jump into new relationships before we’re ready, and that’s when we choose people whose hearts aren’t really in it either. When my heart isn’t in it, I’m attracted to people who treat me like crap, and I’m uncomfortable with people who genuinely care for me. It wasn’t until I decided to just be single for awhile that I’ve been able to meet, and appreciate, good men.
Very well said Bunny Blue and very true!! Congrats on all your hard work….
I am finding the same…when you do the work…you see life differently…you see how much life has to offer..whether you have a partner or not.
“I have to say that I am surprised to hear people who have come out of LTRs or marriage say that they are unavailable”
I’m finding, in my recent forays into online dating, that there are quite a few middle-aged guys who have come out of long marriages, and are looking to kick up their heels. A startling amount say they are up for an open relationship, or polyamory, or the ever-so-vague “casual” relationship. (To be fair there are plenty of newly-divorced gals on the site, too, who say upfront they’re not looking for anything serious, etc.)
And oh, do NOT get me started on all the profile photos of shirtless middle-aged men smeared in body paint and desert dust, wearing feather boas and Golden Girls style sunglasses, getting in touch with themselves at Burning Man. Oh, dude. MY EYES, they burn! 😀
Tea Cozy… Some of those pictures they post are so
PATHETIC….. and they really think there are women who are gonna be interested… um NO , NEXT…. As I stated before I have boycotted dating sites for a very long time…
Hi ToA,
I’ve been in a relationship for 20 odd yrs and through having an affair with an EUM and finding this site have started to recognise my own unavailability. It explains alot of the issues I have had – particularly my inability to commit to marriage and lots of other things, blowing hot and cold etc. I always put it down to not having found quite the right person. That if I found someone who I had THAT feeling with everything would be perfect. But of course EUWs get THAT feeling with EUMs. And we all know where that leads…so I’m now trying to process all this and work out if my LTR can improve if I change. It is defiitely a work in progress
KitKat, I divorced at 47 and agree that dating at this age is very different (I am 50). When I was first divorced, I was so EU myself but had no clue. After my disaster, I took time off from dating, worked on me, then went back on match for a second time. I was healthier, so I did it totally different. I met lots of men, most were good men and a few were ACs. But I recognized them now. Flush! Next! (IMO guys who come on really strong and tell you all those things you want to hear, you must be strong and flush fast! They are ALWAYS bad news and like Natalie says, giving them a chance is walking in front of traffic).
I am not advocating for online sites (although that is where my boyfriend of 7 months came from), but dating is still fun and totally possible when YOU are in the right place. When I hear women saying “there are no good men out there” I totally disagree. There are lots of good men out there….but if we are not healthy we are not looking for good men. We are looking for EUs to match our EU. Hang in there, when you are ready, he will come!!
“Yet there you are putting your hand in the fire and expecting it to hug you, or retreat, and basically change its whole nature…”
YEEEESSSSS. It’s up to us to take responsibility for our actions and our parts in our relationships. I fully agree that we cannot control the uncontrollable or force what isn’t meant to be.
I really appreciate this post because it reminds me to be still, instead of stubborn. Once you stop pushing, forcing, and manipulating, life gets a lot better–especially in the realm of relationships.
Been there, did that, trying to “work” at a “relationship” with the ex who, despite what he said, wasn’t into a mutual relationship, and so doing a number on my self-trust and self-esteem.
Now, I am stubbornly trying to hold on to the belief that I can still meet someone and have a family. It feels, at times, just as pie-in-the-sky to believe that as it did to believe that I could make it work with the AC ex.
I don’t know what letting go, or faith, or stubbornness is anymore. I could be torturing myself, staying open to what I want instead of numbing out to it and pretending I don’t wonder how it is that my life has no partner or kids. I try not to wonder. If I am “enough” right now, if I have always been “enough”, I don’t get it. My friends who are five years younger are having their first and second children. I feel like I should be having a funeral for my hopes – lately I think about parents or families who just know a loved one is missing and don’t know what happened to them – they hang on, hoping. It would be easier if someone could come along and say, they’re dead already, your imagined family is dead already, your hope needs to die too, just let it die and mourn it and move on.
But I expect I’ll not let it die, not for a few more years …
I have been working on my self-esteem. I am a good person, a worthy person. Now, feeling that I am enough, there is no ‘reason’ to this family-less-ness. There’s nothing to fix, no diet, no self-improvement regime that is going to change my situation. Other women have found happiness and family and I am no less than they are, no less deserving, no less capable. I need stubbornness, I need something, to keep my hopes alive.
Maybe this is just raw grief. Maybe it’s just what it is – uncontrollableness. It fucking sucks.
My work is fine – it’s rewarding – when I teach I can feel that I make a real contribution. My family and friends are kind and present in my life. Kmac said call off the search. I can’t bring myself to do that.
I cling to that part of me that says, this feeling of hopelessness will pass, I’ll feel strong and hopeful again soon. But even if I have 90 days of hopefulness, on the 91st day the reality of my aging self, my life happening without my sharing it in intimacy, decides to make itself felt. What’s the difference between hope, stubbornness and self-delusion?
Magnolia, I want to give you a hug!! Your comment pierced my heart and I really hope and believe you will find the love you long for.
I’m sure its part of the empowerment that women in our situations need, but I sometimes wonder at the whole discourse on single women who are so happy and fulfilled and don’t need a man. Sometimes it sounds almost like it’s a weakness to long for, wish for, hope for a love story. I can see how longing too much for anything is unhealthy, especially if there are thoughts of “I will be happy, once X happens”. Still, I don’t think I can get that longing out of me. I do not want to live a life without romantic love!
I realize now that I was longing for a relationship the whole time with the EUM. The promise of a relationship was so deceptively close, yet always that one frustrating step away. In a way I’ve been single these two whole goddamn years I spent serving on him while he waffled about like a leaf in a storm and poked his head ever deeper into his own ass.
But dogged determination for yourself which is applied into subsequent action is not the same as attempting to control another person and force a relationship in spite of compelling arguments or reasons to change course and opt out. That’s faith rooted in dysfunction and ego issues; believing that you are worthy and having faith in you as a person is your right. There are no compelling arguments or reasons for you not to accept that you’re good enough or to have a family one day. Everybody has bad days, weeks or even months. Is one day worth throwing in the towel for?
Evaluate what you do in your day to day, week to week. What have you been doing to create the life that you want? List it, keep track of it and add to it. That is a good starting point.
If you brute force something, you can NEVER be sure that what you’re getting is authentic and real. It is like tainted goods… it’s just not the same.
Stop being a WIZARD! You can’t wave a wand and “whoosh” all their problems, crappy behaviour and assclownery will just magically disappear. Real people in the real world don’t have that power – they are who they are and they did what they did! If people really had the power to change others, we could just take ANYONE off the street and make them into whatever we want.
Put away your magic wand! Stop wondering why the magic wand isn’t working – it’s because there IS no magic solution. That also goes for Florences too!
magnolia
If you don’t think you can find lasting love, why are you dating? be careful that this ambivalence doesn’t trip you up:
“It’s too late for me, so I might as well spend x days/weeks/years in this “situation” (whether it’s dating for fun, casual relationships, EU relationship, obsessing about an ex, obsessing about our faults, or – in my case – retreating to my comfort zone of “I’m going to be single for the rest of my life cos I’m happy”).
Then ten years later you (I) find yourself (myself) feeling that the ship has sailed and we’re so unlucky/unworthy/not like other women. But it’s not bad luck, we made it happen. And if we can make THIS happen, why not THAT?
Meeting someone doesn’t “just happen”. In olden days we had matchmakers, arranged marriages and endless dances to bring people together. It’s okay to have a goal and do something to achieve it. It’s not the same as clawing desperation or launching yourself at the next unsuspecting male. I personally don’t have to call of the search because I never started it. For all the relationships I’ve had, I was never searching. I was just letting shit happen. If it’s okay to search for a house, a job, a place to live, isn’t it okay to search for love?
You can do that and still be happy. It’s not about feeling dissatisfied with yourself or your life while hankering after THE ONE. Yes there are setbacks but, if it doesn’t happen (and I think it will happen for you. I’m not quite believing it yet for me), at least you tried.
Me, having sadly written off the crush, my next step is to go to lunchtime lectures in the City. Surely, there must be some eligible men there! And if not, I’ll have occupied my mind for an hour or so. Overthinkers *ahem* need to keep their minds occupied with positive things or, for sure, we’ll find some way to torture ourselves. It doesn’t make the torture real or significant. It’s a bad habit, is all. Like biting your nails.
Also, exercise helps, and a good diet which I know you were doing.
Do bear in mind I haven’t had a whisper of a date in about six years. If I can put myself out there, so can you.
Magnolia
I’m not sure that this is right, so I’ll say it cautiously, but as far as I can see, the price of being choosy and waiting for the right man is withstanding the disappointment when yet another one turns out to be Not Right, putting the time in, keeping the faith and dealing with the self-doubt as and when it arises. And the bonus of having half-decent self-esteem is that you enjoy the wait more than you would without it 🙂
I realised recently that the only reason that I have low self-esteem (as opposed to having something actually wrong with me or some massive flaw in my brain) is because I’ve been giving it away, in nice little gift-wrapped parcels, to people who didn’t deserve it. I guess that it’s the same with you and time – the only reason that you have less of it than you should is because you’ve given it to the wrong people. That’s really sad and Unfair and Awful to grow up believing that you had to – and it’s probably natural to grieve for the waste. But it’d be MUCH sadder if you hadn’t realised and were still trekking through life in the same unfulfilling way.
Personally, I think that one day of feeling sad every three months is pretty good going (when you consider that you probably used to average three months of feeling horrid every three months) but the bother with being down is that it becomes a hole that you can’t see out of, and when you’re in it you can’t imagine feeling good again. Doesn’t mean that you won’t. Doesn’t mean that you’re doomed to a life alone, either.
I’m very familiar with the ‘waiting-for-a-bus-that-isn’t-ever-going-to-turn-up’ feeling, but it’s easier to deal with when I’m doing other useful and interesting things at the bus stop rather than fretting about the lack of bus. Also, fwiw, I do truly believe that you WILL find someone and be happy – you know what you’re looking for and you’re prioritising it. Under those circumstances people generally do succeed at whatever they’re trying for.
I hope that helps, dunno if that all sounds a bit glib.
Wise words Yoghurt. And I want to say this to both of you and anyone else it applies to:
When you feel down and have that grey cloud over you, it’s easy to fall into the trap of believing that the grey cloud will never move on or that blue skies don’t exist. But the cloud does move and you already know that blue skies and sunshine do exist and will be back. The more you take care of yourselves, the more sun and blue skies you have in your life and the easier it is to move beyond the grey when they inevitably appear.
Magnolia, I get the same type of feelings of hopelessness and ‘why bother’ defeatism. I have good days too, where I feel the world has just opened up after a long self imposed imprisonment. I was recently told that I need to quit hiding behind myself and learn to wear my glowing, unique spirit like a coat. Until I do, the people who I attract and meet aren’t seeing the real me, just my facade, and ultimately are not attracted to who I am but who I present. Once I learn let go of my fears and be myself, really be myself and stop apologizing, stop minimizing, stop self doubt and self sabotage, I will present myself in way that a similar glowing spirit will see me in the crowd. Right now I am camouflaged. Frogs will always be out there, and approach me, I will give some a chance, some I will spot right off and not waste my time, but if just shut myself off from hope of finding the kind of relationship I want, that genuine spirit out there either won’t see me or may pass right before my nose and I won’t be open enough to notice him. Don’t give up hope. Don’t give up the search but just BE, the best you can be for yourself and be open. Millions of people find love, we can’t be so different to be the exception to that for the rest of our lives. Sometimes we have to get out of our own way. Heck, I still trip over myself daily but I get up and brush off the dirt. Tomorrow brings new options, new places, new faces and new opportunities….we don’t have to be looking in every alley and cubby hole for them, but we need to be open enough to recognize them. That also means finding balance and not wanting it so much that we see opportunities in limited sources. As I type this to you, its a pep talk to myself. Hang in there with me!
jennynic,
I am with you (most of the time :))), but I have an issue with “helpful” people assuming things and trying to give me advice, explain me to myself, and, overall, pushing me to change myself in ways *they* imagine would be *best* for me (and those changes are not always in line with my values). And since some of these are close friends or family, or even relationship professionals, I often get confused. What is the best way to deal with such situations, what do you think?
P.,
I agree, I get well meaning folks telling me to change this, change that, be this, be that. Sometimes they make sense and then sometimes it’s clear they live on a different planet than me. What is right for some may not work for me, or may even be stifling or down right bad advice. It does get confusing and you can end up pushing your own voice further into yourself. The advice given to me on this occasion hit me right in the right spot and encouraged me to find myself. The message was to listen to my self more, and live authentically. My inner voice is my guide and as long as I ignore her, I live in conflict with myself. I cannot feel safe in the world if I don’t feel safe with myself first. She didn’t tell me how to act, just to act while listening to my intuition and turning off my censor. I don’t ask for advice much anymore in my everyday life because I find it usually just makes me feel more conflicted even though most people mean well. For the unwanted advice, I just say, “Okay, I’ll think about that.” then change the subject. Sometimes we lose our inner voice and it may take time to find it again, but it’s there, don’t let people tell you otherwise or minimize it. You may need to get rid of the noise in your life to hear it. The person who spoke to me about my spirit is a very spiritual person who has a calmness and peace about her that stood out like a beacon to me. I have been gravitating to positive people and it’s made a difference. It’s contagious.
Thank you, jennynic. I am trying. Sometimes it gets difficult when I am overtired (single mom, finishing grad school, insurance bills, uncertain about a place to live etc.) and I try to get lots of rest even when not feeling like it. Getting therapy whenever I can – apparently some family of origin issues came up as a result of my divorce. So, if felt like a double whammy – once I started getting better, a whole set of new issues came up. Yes, you are right – some people mean well, but hurt you just the same and that is confusing.
P
Natalie is right when she says you have to trust yourself and know what’s right for you.
People tell me to ‘ get out there ‘ socialise and meet people but that goes against my nature.I am homely and very happy when i’m creating something for my home.I love my textile class,when I am with like minded people.
People tell you to ‘ just be yourself ‘ and yet whoever got a date from staying at home ?
I have made a few little changes, met some great women,got out, and it has helped, but I have to trust myself and not put myself into uncomfortable situations on other peoples advice.
What’s right for one person will be wrong for another.
What’s right for you ? What makes you happy ?
These days, “you should…” are two words I would ONLY accept from my boss, and that is ONLY because he’s responsible for my paycheck (lol).
All other “you should’s” are a waste of time in my book. Other people can occasionaly help us with their OBSERVATIONS (“to me it looks as if you are…”, “I think you’re not getting what you want because…”, “I think that other person is doing this…” and so on). Anyway, other people have absolutely no business telling us what to do, because that’s entirely up to us. We don’t owe them! Sometimes we believe we need to do something in order to make THEM happy, even if what we do affects only US. Sounds crazy, because it is.
Very often, those people don’t really want to help us. They simply want to be RIGHT, even if they aren’t. This is not to trash them. It’s simply human I guess (I’ve done it over and over again myself), but it’s not helpful to others.
We need to make our decisions based on our own knowledge. Knowledge is the only thing others can help us with. In many cases they can’t even do that because we already know better than they do!
In the past, I’ve shelled out a lot of “you should’s” myself. I’m trying to stop that now. If anybody else tries to do that to me, I either try to say something polite to fend it off (I guess there are at least a hundred polite ways to deflect a “you should”), or I avoid those people entirely. I don’t always succeed, but to me it seems the right way to handle this.
Tanzanite,
That is a great question! I have been reading The Introvert Advantage and I discovered that introverts (apparently I am one) actually *forget* what they like to do! I know it sounds nutty, but the book explains this in great detail. So, I am trying to remember that now… Yes, I, too have an issue with the “just get out there” advice because many events make me feel uncomfortable and I thought something was “wrong” with me (which is another trait of introverts, lol). The book lists some options for introverts that should be less taxing, and I am thinking about those. Above all, I think I should go slowly and limit myself, as weird as that sounds. For example, today I would love to go to a bookstore (a major trip since there are lots of people there), but I carefully considered how I *really* felt and I determined I really felt tired and needed to do laundry or I would be overwhelmed later. Does this make sense at all?
P
Oh yes.
I can relate to some of the things you are talking about.
I have gone over the things which have caused me so much pain over the last 3 years and have blamed many things but I think it could be as basic as genetics.I got my old school reports out and they all described me as quiet,thoughtful,helpful etc and I was 3 years old years old when those comments were being made.
Are we being too hard on ourselves ?
The key is acceptance.I have made some great female friends and the reason I like them so much is because I have a sense of belonging and acceptance.They describe me as bubbly and I feel as if they are talking about someone else.It’s because they bring out the best in me.As soon as you are with the right people that’s what happens .
I’m not afraid of doing anything or going anywhere but I know certain situations I wont enjoy and I really look forward to coming home.
We are all different.Don’t worry about what other people think.
My attitude changed because of meeting other people, sometimes we avoid the thing we need the most.
P you know what you need to do.Didn’t Jenny say listen to your inner voice ? She is right.
“What’s the difference between hope, stubbornness and self-delusion?”
I think that is a great question, and the ladies gave some great answers. 🙂
Yikes, I’m stubborn; it is a personal truth, and I thought it was an asset because it was my way of “not giving up, giving-in” … a survival skill from my childhood, no doubt…a form of protection of the false-self, because I think, sure, I am stubborn or “pig-headed” at times, but yet the positive is that I am just not as easily influenced as others…thinking for myself 🙂 lol . But, really when I’m being stubborn, I’m really just coming from a position of fear… and….
Double yikes, because being stubborn is considered a personality defect in some schools of thought! 🙁
My opinion of MYSELF is that being stubborn prevents me from not only fully considering other opinions but also other ideas, solutions, “ways,”…er, taking different actions…, so if something isn’t working I might just keep beating a dead horse…uh, it is MY resistance to CHANGE, and well, life is all about change, so ugghhhh, so I try not to be so stubborn and actively listen and explore different opinions, ideas, “ways,” actions, etc., and if something isn’t working, then it is time for a “you guessed it”…out of my comfort zone I go…..
Hope to me is a feeling. A feeling and a positive way of thinking that says “I want a certain positive outcome.” (e.g., I want to be in a healthy relationship one day where I am sharing my life with a man that I am oh, soooooo, hot in love with…. 🙂 ) Or, even better, “I know I am going to be in a healthy relationship where…one day.” And, I will reach that goal by being perseverant, mindful, creative, tenacious, and emotionally available, etc..all the good stuff.
Self-delusion says to me that I am lying to myself about something, or that I’m not “seeing what is really going on,” or that I am misinformed, or misguided,…er, way off the mark, or, ewww, in fantasy land, etc, (e.g., I can get him to change; I can be the exception to his rule.)
I dunno, I want someone to share my life with as well Magnolia, and I just had one of those moments where I thought: maybe God’s will for me doesn’t include a healthy, romantic love relationship, but that was just me “having a bad day.” “Keep hope alive!” 🙂 🙂
I feel what you’re saying Sugar…about the fear under the stubbornness, I was so afraid of being vulnerable, can’t do intimacy, just emotionally unavailable, scared to really open up, so I stubbornly refused to do or give anything in my relationship that required me to do any of that. I didn’t listen to their pleas, and I think I really hurt and aggravated some of my men. I really feel bad about that. I wish I had listened. I just didn’t have the self-awareness, no insight, not a clue. I can’t go back, so
bits, grace, yoghurt, jennynic, p, sugarnspice, natalie:
Thank you. Thank you.
I agree that a day of cloud every ninety days of sun is pretty darn good. Ha – I definitely “used to average three months of feeling horrid every three months”! Thank goodness there is such a thing as learning self-care.
That was a bit of a scary three-day emotional plummet that coincided with coming off the “official” diet cleanse, having lost a few pounds and suddenly looking surprisingly good, but feeling like that meant f*ck all because I’m fielding some recent serious health and financial challenges “alone” … doesn’t matter what precipitated it, I was, for a few days, derailed by the intensity of my despair. I am so glad that I remembered to reach out, and that you are here to reach out to.
Last night I had tea with a good friend, and today I went to a panel that taught about our local water system and the local aboriginal wisdom that survives here – I don’t usually go to stuff like that, and found myself so surrounded by like-minded people, and heard stories of aboriginal women elders who have been through their own awful race sh*t in residential schools that deeply affected their ability to love themselves and form relationships. They taught me something today about sharing pain, strength and community; I feel much calmer today.
This is about having faith, and as Yoghurt calls being ‘choosy,’ having the determination to stick to my values when actively looking for a partner, even if it feels like searching for my wedding dress at a sporting goods closing out sale. Grace, it’s not that I don’t believe I can find someone, it’s that the belief gets tested, harshly tested! It’s like the faith one has to have growing up in an abusive household: just because all your luck says different, and people are looking at you like you’re lesser, one has to keep believing that one is worthy and that one day, one will create loving relationships. When those loving relationships seem to take a long time coming, it can sometimes get through the defenses, and set you back to wondering if dad and boys – who said I couldn’t and never would – were right.
It’s a fine line between the self-work that empowers and ‘self-improvement’ projects borne out of feeling never good enough. Thanks Nat for saying it’s my right to keep believing in me. It’s my right, no matter what the odds, as long as the action of that belief means I keep loving and investing in me.
Magnolia,
how is your dissertation going? A while back one of my advisors (the “wise one”) told me we were very vulnerable at this stage; yes, we were specifically talking about dating, and to be extra careful with myself. I cannot say I followed her advice, but it kept coming up till it sank in. The extreme pressure of grad school, the competitiveness (if you think there is no competition in your department, look again), the tendency for abuse on the part of… (fill in the blank), the (earning) potential you might have for wannabe boyfriends all contribute. Oh, and lets not forget the lack of jobs and insurance should you graduate…
P – this dissertation is a marathon – a bunch of marathons! People keep telling me how stressful it is to try to finish a dissertation but I imagine juggling kids and a FT job would be just as challenging … and the goal is to have a job and a family; the department is full of people with a job and a life … who knows, maybe I’m like the frog in the water slowly warming and have lost sight of how boiling it is around here!
(And talk about stubbornly pursuing something even though there is all kinds of evidence there will be no payoff – one of my friends has had two postdocs and has a dozen peer-reviewed published articles and still hasn’t gotten a job 🙁 Such is the reality.)
There was just a positive strike vote for my union but we don’t know yet if there will be a strike. I’m going to have to cancel my car insurance – I can’t afford to drive! I’m surviving, though – trying to produce brilliant research – thanks for asking.
“Right now, when you persist in maintaining a position that is actually working against you, what is actually blocking your way and your view…is you.”
Why, Nat, are so many of your posts painful to read? I suspect because they ring true and touch a sensitive nerve.
I had a bad day today. In six weeks, Alky will be back in my area. Although I know it is for the best, my heart is heavy at the thought that he will be here and we won’t be together. I’m blocking my own view with a brick wall.
My past tendency was to stop by his house, to find him at one of his hangouts, to wait for him to validate me with a text or phone call. I’m embarrassed at my behavior. It’s been relatively easy to stay away from him and have no contact because he’s been 800 miles away! Come May, when he actually is here again, I’m afraid that I won’t be able to cope. The excuse that he is out of state will no longer apply. It’s likely that we will run into each other, as we met at a local haunt. Do I talk to him, ignore him, run out of the bar? I don’t understand why this is causing me such a panic.
Blue,
Isn’t this the MM?
How do you know he is visiting the area?
I would also be curious to know why you would consider visiting the bar, if there is a possibility he will show? I would go to another bar or find another activity.
You’re causing yourself unnecessary pain and drama by staying connected.
Allison, No, this is a single man I met months ago. His work is outdoors and weather dependent so he spends six months in my area, then six months south. He follows the sun.
My passion is singing and this is one of my karaoke bars. There are actually very few in my area and I regularly go with a girlfriend on the designated night. It was my bar first, lol!
I agree that I am causing myself unnecessary pain and suffering. Something tells me he will avoid the bar on that night if he knows I might be there, so problem solved, right?
Ace post. “Sometimes it is as simple as recognising that you continue to hold onto thoughts…” This is the truest ever.
Round about Christmas various things forced me into the situation of having to ‘let go’ of it, even though by then there really was nothing to let go of and I could see pretty clearly that hanging onto it was doing nothing but making me miserable.
If I took him out of the equation, I had a nice life and a perfectly good chance of meeting and falling in love with and having a fulfilling relationship with someone else. If I didn’t, I was going to be forever a loser, a reject, on the outside of someone else’s relationship and unable to EVER get over him or meet someone as great etc etc weep.
But even knowing this, there was a part of my head that SCREAMED in my ear for days at a time… “You’re going to accept this? You mean it’s all going to have meant NOTHING? All that EFFORT you put in? After EVERYTHING you’ve been through? You’re going to admit that you were WRONG? You’re going to abandon this perfectly loving persona? Who will you be then? And you do realise, woman, that it’s going to be really boring – what will you think about if you don’t think about him??! And ohhhhh, it’ll be hard work clearing up all this emotional mess on your own – isn’t it worth just hanging on on the off-chance that he comes round and clears it up for you?”
At one point I was washing up and I threw a dish on the floor to make it shut the hell up. Waste of a perfectly good dish and didn’t work.
But… I – eventually – ignored the voice (it still occasionally whinges, but only on off-days) and consigned him to my heap of ‘Things That Weren’t Meant To Be, Unfair As Life Might Sometimes Be’ and now I can clearly demarcate that period as being the end of me feeling awful and the start of me feeling better – to the point where now I’m starting to feel quite excited at the prospect of living my life again and all the nice things that might happen in the future. It was maybe the hardest thing I’ve ever done (who’d have thunk? When it was just a case of changing a few thoughts?) but it was sooooooo worth it.
Hi Yoghurt,
“And you do realise, woman, that it’s going to be really boring – what will you think about if you don’t think about him??! And ohhhhh, it’ll be hard work clearing up all this emotional mess on your own – isn’t it worth just hanging on on the off-chance that he comes round and clears it up for you?”
Your post essentially describes what is going on with me right now. The voices, the conversations, going over what happened in the past, and then over it again…torturing myself with fantastical thoughts. I have yet to throw one of my Villeroy & Boch dishes, however. (Oh, the horror : )
I feel weak, frustrated and hopeless that I can’t let go of a relationship that doesn’t exist. I’m thinking that it’s time to make an appointment with my therapist who I check in with occasionally when the seas are extra rough.
Thanks for your post ~You give me hope & strength that I can change my unhealthy inner voice and turn this around.
This is what I near to hear right now. I’m experiencing intense loneliness this evening…..so tempted to send a text to that man……LET.IT.BE!!!! Perfect sentiment for right now. Thru out the (non-existent) relationship I always tried to force things, be it love, desire, excitment, caring – you name it. I was trying to control him and the situation. I realize how destructive that was/is to me. Letting go is so difficult, but every day that I don’t email or text is a victory for me. A small one perhaps, but a victory. I need to move on, and every day I tell that to myself. Some days are easier than others……….
thank you Natalie fot your ‘invaluable”contribution to my life 🙂
It has now been three months since I left the exercise studio of the man with the girlfriend. All I want to do is get back there. I was a frequent customer and helped him a bit with this new business.
I left because I lost my comfort level there and leaving has been a huge adjustment to my daily schedule. Not onlyndo I miss him but I miss his classes.
I reached out to speak with him last month and he told me he had to make sure his gf was okay with that and that he would call me back. I told him I could email him what I now think was my rejection retraction and he told me he would rather talk. He never called back.
Talk about my stubbornness. I am still plotting how to get back there. Even in the face of the very clear message that was sent when he told me he would call in a day or two and never did. And the reason I left in the first place was because what had once been so close was now so superficial to me
He was not actually mean but i felt discarded in some way and undervalued as he got more serious with his gf. She no longer spoke to me and he was by her side and I left. Why do I want to go back so badly. Why do I miss him so much? And wouldn’t it be like me jumping back into the fire?
I thought I would be happier having left because I was so uncomfortable and sad. But being away is worse. I’ve already drafted an email saying I am hoping to come back.
It was never clear to me how much was between us, but for such an extreme outcome (me leaving and him now not speaking with me), surely I should have gotten something more out of all this!
doubtful
It’s not extreme for the two of you to be no longer speaking. Your situations was screwed up but, even so, the point stands – it’s normal for two people to meet, get to know each other, and then for one or both to realise it’s not going anywhere and to FINISH IT.
When I first came to this blog many moons again it struck me that I couldn’t, and neither could any of the jerky men FINISH IT. All the dipping in and out of each other’s lives, make up and break ups, demotions and upgrades, emails and stupid texting, hanging around yoga studios *ahem*, are not a symptom of “this is a significant relationship/friendship”, rather it’s the classic 100% surefire sign of EU-ness: the inability to FINISH IT.
Doubtful, and to all of you faffing about in this half-life of not moving on – FINISH IT, FINISH IT, FINISH IT!!! It’s like the end-of-level boss in computer games. For crying out loud, KILL IT!
If you go back to that yoga studio I’m gonna confiscate your yoga mat.
@ Grace. “For crying out loud, KILL IT!”
This is the kick in the ass that I really needed right now.
FINISH IT FINISH IT FINISH IT
Is it any coincidence what the last four letters spell? Wise, she is (in my best Yoda voice).
Please don’t send the e-mail!!!!
What are you anticipating if you return to the studio?
If I return, I get to go back to my exercise schedule at a time and place that works for me. I am going elsewhere but it is less than fulfilling. I was part of an early morning group of advanced students and I didn’t realize how much that meant to me. I feel like I lost so much.
Also, I just don’t know that I had to cut him completely out of my life by leaving. Maybe I was being overly dramatic. I want to undo that.
Doubtful, the only reason you should go back there is because you’re in full 100% acceptance that he has a girlfriend, there is no you and him, and that he doesn’t have to be friends with you. You are not at that place so why would you go back? I think it is time for you to be 100% honest about your motives and your brief involvement with him. You must have a hell of a lot to avoid if you are still rehashing this. It’s like you will not face facts, including that he has a girlfriend, which means that if you go back with one shred of ulterior motives, you will be crossing boundaries. In fact, you already have with your initial involvement.
I know I have a lot that I am avoiding. Mostly, about how I feel about myself. I have had my guard up for so, so long. He slowly worked his way in. Months and months of doing so. It was only after that I realized he was not staying. I am so annoyed with myself for not taking better care. I did not chase this man but there was some kind of build up. And, it got all mixed up with some confidences I disclosed. What a mess for me.
I think part of wanting to go back is to make like all is really okay. I don’t need anyone’s boyfriend. But, I think he must hate me or something for not even caring that I am gone or that I had needed to talk. Why would someone come to me when they had no intentions? I think that’s also what I don’t want to face.
Doubtful
If – IF – he hates you, then he’s a dreg, he’s blaming you for everything instead of taking responsibility for his own behaviour, and that means that you were just wrong about him and the person that you’re fantasizing about isn’t really the person that he is.
I suspect that it’s more likely, though, that seeing you would just make him feel bad about himself and his behaviour – towards you AND his girlfriend – and he’d rather not deal with it.
I think that a lot of these men have, in some ways, a fairly fine-tuned sense of what’s healthy in a relationship and what’s not, and I think that he’s made it clear that he believes this situation IS unhealthy and he therefore doesn’t want to be part of it anymore.
Not that it particularly matters what he thinks because he isn’t a part of your life anymore, but either he doesn’t hate you or else he’s horrible enough not to bother with.
Anyway he’s right. It ISN’T healthy for you to still be hung up on it when it effectively Didn’t Happen – I’m not blaming you (heaven knows that we’ve all been there, besides, there are probably pretty good reasons for it), but at this point the responsibility lies with you to deal with your feelings, not him.
Insofar as he’s gone about it in a bit of a cowardly way, imo, he IS doing the right thing by not engaging with you on a one-to-one level again. It might be difficult to deal with, but at least without any more mind-bending by him you can focus on YOUR feelings about this and why YOU’RE having this reaction.
It sucks that you’ve got to adjust your exercise regime around this, it does and it’s not fair. But – and I say this as someone who’s had to adjust to life as a single mother – sometimes life does suck and you have a choice between trying to force it to be ‘fair’ (which inevitably involves someone else who’s not co-operating) or accepting it and working round to happiness in a different, more difficult but ultimately more sustainable and fulfilling way.
Thank you, Yoghurt. Funny that you refer to what’s “fair” because I keep using that term in my head. It’s not fair. I did not initiate or chase him. It was the other way around and in ways that weren’t always direct so I could not really tell what was what.
I think what got me stuck was his telling me he loved me and my disclosing my health secret. I am working on this in therapy. I was already married to someone who would say he loved me but conduct his life otherwise.
This has opened up a lot of wounds that I apparently never dealt with.
Doubtful,
Delete the email. You were not being overly dramatic to leave the gym and cut him out of your life. Your involvement with him was not a healthy one and you were right to leave. Perhaps keep on trying different gyms and classes until you find something that holds your interest? I suggest summoning up your pride and some anger towards this a**hole, as it may assist in preventing you from making further contact. You don’t need him or his gym, and you certainly don’t need to boost his ego by continuing to contact him and asking to re-join his gym. He isn’t deserving of any further attention.
A,
It amazes me that so many of you took the time to comment on my post. And the comments are so carefully thought out. I’ve read them several times over.
I am trying to summon my pride and I only wish I could have some anger towards him. I know that would help. I sort of give him a pass because his response with regards to my health issue was so kind. I will forever remember it.
But, your words are exactly those I would tell my daughter if she were in my situation. I’ve just needed to tell them to myself or, apparently, needed you to do so.
Thank you.
Don’t let it get to the stage where you become a stalker or they have to take out a superinjunction / stalker order on you. You cannot correct this “mistake” or press the reset button either.
You must go NC, get out of there, move city, whatever. DON’T GO THERE. Anything you say or do after NC can be used against you. He has communicated by words and actions that you have no claim to a place in his life – and he has a girlfriend!
Also, I just don’t know that I had to cut him completely out of my life by leaving. Maybe I was being overly dramatic. I want to undo that.
I felt much the same way after walking out on the assclown one morning. I blamed myself so much for their non-contributions and was so furious that they just washed their hands of all responsibility by simply saying ‘oh, I think it is OK to see other people if there hasn’t been a discussion about a committed relationship’ which had my blood boil because I knew that was *exactly* the conversation he was avoiding.
Stop seeking a rejection retraction – you actually made the right decision, even though you might not believe it. What exactly are you expecting, you to appear and then him magically seeing you, dropping everything and his girlfriend in some major fantasy and the curtain closing and everything being happily ever after? Seriously, if you turn up, he might just call the police!
That and don’t even attempt to press the reset button on yourself.
You can make it to the other side. I did.
I was not hoping he would drop his girlfriend or anything of the sort. I was just thinking that after having had this time away, he would not matter so much to me anymore and that having had some distance, I could return to his classes. I miss the class and my old schedule. I was up three mornings a week before dawn exercising for the first time in my life. I loved it.
Even tho it’s a small place, I don’t even want to interact too much. I just want to go there to the class. No ulterior motives. I feel like it would take away the anxiety I’ve been feeling since I left.
doubtful
You’ve posted manycomments about this guy and what you’ve said to him and what he’s said to you, and what you could have done differently, and why has the “friendship” ended and whether you should email him. He matters a lot to you.
I DO believe you don’t want him to drop his girlfriend. Something about the unsolvability of this “situation” is drawing you to it. Where there is no hope you don’t really have to DO anything, just suffer, even if it is horrid.
I think the anxiety will climb through the roof if you’re going to keep putting yourself in front of him. “Did he look at me a certain way today? Did he not look at me? Did his girlfriend say anything? Why did he say x to me? Why didn’t he say goodbye to me? Why did he speak to me? Why didn’t he speak to me?” For me, over and over in my head I turn around what I will say to the crush, whether I should speak to him, if I should ignore him etc. I’m paralysed by it. But I’m not going to tell him and I’m not going to stalk him and I’m not going to email, text or call him.
If you’re anxious he can’t be the answer. If he upped and left the neighbourhood does that mean you would always have to remain anxious? The solution can have nothing to do with him.
It’s just yoga. There must be other classes. Or practise at home. Or try dance. I love yoga but dance really gets you out of yourself. Or ballet – that’s very good for obsessives.
Doubtful,
It seems to me that you are seeking people’s approval or permission to go to this class, when it is your life and you know yourself best and if you need to go just to see if your anxiety is abated then that is what you should do.
Many many br readers have done the suck it and see thing and learnt from it.
Good luck with what you decide.
Thank you all for your replies. They have given me a lot to think about.
Oh Nat….I admit I have been so damn Stubborn to still continue to make His issues all about me…I still seem to seek out info on this Man when I know full well it does me No good…
Thanks for making me see “my stuff”..you are hands down one of the most amazing people I have ever had in my life…
Brenda, please don’t just *admit* to being stubborn – *quit* being stubborn! His issues really are all about him and not about you – he’d have behaved the way he did whoever it was with. And please truly *believe*, as well as recognise, that while you continue to seek out information on this man you will never truly get over him 100%. It was only when I completely stopped snooping at my ex’s FB page, e-mails, online work rota, his club’s website, his daughter’s FB page etc etc etc that I started making leaps and bounds with moving on and building a new and infinitely more joyous life for myself. I am determined to continue with this, but then stubbornness and determination are not the same thing. I googled the two words, and came up with this:
“Stubbornness is unwillingness to change or compromise. Determination is the drive to succeed”.
I wish you well in moving forward with determination, Brenda, and in leaving stubborn stuck-ness in your old beliefs behind.
Wow- what a fantastic post & topic! I really appreciate your sharing these excellent (and very well written) points, thanks. :o)
Exactly. This post is where I push my mind to go in order to “let go”.
There is JUST.NO.WINNING.
If I “win” him back I’ll:
-read into everything he says & does
-be resentful of all the things he didn’t/won’t do
-and be perpetually paranoid/insecure about being with him since I don’t trust him
That’s not love. It’s control. I’ve been there in other relationships & ended up miserable. Thanks for the reminder. Please come to Los Angeles & write more books!!!!!
Yep – there’s no such thing as ‘winning’ when it involves losing yourself in the process.
That is such a good saying. I like it when the sayings feed on Facebook has images in it too.
Eternal Summer, that is so true and exactly what I just went through! I made myself so unhappy imagining the worst in everything he did based upon past experience. Of course, some of the time what he was actually doing was probably worse than “the worst” I was imagining! But, some of the time I probably just seemed like a paranoid, insecure drama queen because my self-control went out the window in response to the provocation – external, internal/real and imagined. I have a new sense of acceptance that the contest is over and there can be no winning. Staying in the game just means more of the same. Even if he actually went from being a cockroach to a frog to a prince, (yeah, right!) there is too much disrespect and anger in my memories to overcome. I stubbornly kept trying to make him treat me with love and respect when he had no interest in actually making me happy but only satisfying his own needs. I kept going back for validation that he actually cared against all evidence for far too long. Why would I want to continue to engage for another minute with someone who makes me feel suspicious and angry? He will always be a reminder of busted boundaries and pain.
Fortunately, our worlds do not overlap and it will be easy to avoid seeing or hearing about him although I know he will make attempts. Beyond the AC playbook of wanting to make himself feel he’s not really a bad guy and chancing his arm, I know he thinks I owe him money and will try to collect. He also has some of my belongings that I told him I wanted back but now I think they are not worth breaking NC although I’m sure he will use them to do so at some point, too. He’s already chatting up and probably sleeping with other women but I’m so done I even told him (in my somewhat regrettable string of angry texts) that I would be happy if he started something new if that meant he would stop messing with me if he doesn’t want me. Unlike my previous NC attempts, including one that lasted months, when I was still trying to “win,” I can feel a shift in myself that I really get it that I will never be happy or at peace as long as he is in my life.
I still feel a bit under the influence of “last chance saloon” thinking because I am and look so much older than last time I was on the market but I’m working on that. I now recognize the true folly of that thinking because it kept me…
As Natalie points out, there are only degrees of losing here. Constantly lowering the bar of acceptable behavior to stubbornly hold onto the unworthy. At the end of the day, after you’ve sold yourself & what you stand for out, you are left with a person who is selfish, self absorbed, and feels entitled to all that you have given them, because well, you made it so. And now you are living in a desert, not getting your needs met. So what is there to do about all of this?
Fight. Fight hard for yourself & what you stand for. Sometimes fighting hard for YOU looks like walking away from THEM. I ask myself, “If you know you’re worth it, if you know you’re special, if you want that reflected in the eyes of those around you, you need to walk away from those that don’t. It doesn’t matter why they don’t. JUST GO. And quickly.” I grieve the fantasy that I projected on them, but the reality? The reality sucked.
I remember learning about “sunk cost” in economics but never really had to apply it to anything in reality… until my personal situation with an AC. The high school teacher used the analogy of going to a movie, sitting through half of it, and hating it. Do you stay, keep watching, in the hopes that it will improve? Or do you leave?
If you make a bad investment, is it salient to invest more money despite the deal going bad, on the hopes that that initial money wasn’t wasted?
Don’t throw good money after bad. Don’t waste another year, simply because you’ve already wasted two. You’re not gonna get those two years back, no matter what! That’s just how time works! So acknowledge the waste, mourn it, find out what went wrong, learn from that, and move forward. If this were a business deal, you wouldn’t be pissing away your life regretting that one flubbed deal! You’d be onto the next!
NEXT!
@NML, thank you for great post!!
@Infinite Corridor, you are right 100% right, but how to leave a stuck area??? Ex Assclown back to my life yet again. I can be firm/stubborn with my friends, colleagues, relatives and other men, but when it is AC – I cant say “NO”, and it seems I have a “soft spot”…. I just used to him…After all these reading Natalie’s posts and books, comments of other BR followers, I still arranged to meet AC on Monday:-( I know it is wrong, but yet again my thinking: “I went to several dates, do not fancy anyone, no harm to have a physical relationship with AC while I am still looking for my Mr Right…I do not want AC to be my boyfriend/husband, but I do not mind him to be my lover…” Surely, if I am going to meet someone decent, I will stop meeting AC?!
Little Star
You’ve got that completely the wrong way round. You won’t meet anyone decent until you get rid of the AC FIRST. Hell, you won’t even meet yourself while you’re burning up your time with this nonsense.
Just because he has power over you, doesn’t make him significant or THE ONE. It just means he pushes your buttons. Deactivate those buttons (drama seeking, I must win, I like fighting for love, I can’t ever give up; I’ve already invested x months, I’m going for broke;I’ll take whatever he gives me because I have no faith in myself or my future) and his power is gone – poof – like a puff of smoke.
@Thanks Natalie, I am so embarrassed:-( As you usual you are straight and right! BUT IT is so hard………
@Grace, thank you for your comment. You did not understand me – I do not want AC to be my boyfriend or husband…even if he asks me tomorrow to marry him, I will say NO!!! I do not have any intention to fight for him, I told him hundred of times to go and find someone else, that I DO NOT CARE…but he keeps coming back to me, I do not know WHY??? I am not even that good in bed, trust me.
@Allison, thank you so much for your encouragement. I know I have to think about myself and start to value myself…Last time when I saw AC in October, I felt used and vulnerable..I just do not know how to rid of him for good:-( I cant change my number unfortunately.
Little Star, let me tell you straight – you ain’t gonna be available for a Mr Available if you have Mr Unavailable lying on top of you or even inside you…
Another great saying!
Can this one go in the facebook feed of sayings?
I haven’t forgotten you – I’d check Facebook today 😉
Little,
I tried that for a bit, I cannot recall a more devaluing time. I certainly didn’t think much of myself, to place myself in such a position.
It’s time to be honest with yourself and let go of this guy! This is a no win!!!!!! Treat yourself better and value yourself!
I agree it is painfully devaluing. I can’t even tell you how many times I went back because I rationalized that it wasn’t all bad and was better than nothing. NOT! It was so bad for my self esteem and so crazymaking. And, I let it continue on and off for over a year after we stopped being a couple! So many lies and so much disrespect that my mind boggles. I have had actual casual relationships but you can’t with anyone with a history of disrespectful behavior toward you especially if you are still trying to “win” anything or get validation.
I finally got it last week that I had to be the one to FINISH IT. And, I have. I went NC again and for good and it feels different this time. I don’t want to “win” someone who has repeatedly shown himself to be untrustworthy and mean and thinks so little of me or my feelings. I wish I hadn’t sent the string of angry texts at the end telling him all about himself but really, it doesn’t matter what he thinks of me anymore. In fact, my embarrassment at my lack of control is helpful as a reminder of how dysfunctional things were and the toll it was taking on my sanity. I can just re-read my texts and cringe if I start thinking he’s not really that bad and we can have any kind of relationship!
My wise daughter suggested I think of it as “spring cleaning.” Definitely don’t need that AC’s or my own flip flapping cluttering up my life. I am finally fully rejecting him and choosing me and what my future holds alone or with someone new.
I read a spin on the oft quoted insanity definition: The definition of insanity isn’t repeating the same behavior expecting a different result. The definition is repeating the same behavior knowing exactly what the result will be and doing it anyway.
Did I actually for a minute truly believe he wouldn’t keep lying and hurting me if I kept seeing him in any capacity?!! Did I think somehow that crap was OK because of the few good crumbs still on offer and it was better than being alone?!! WTF?!! I was being insane and stubborn! EUs and ACs do not suddenly drop their spots and prance back all paisley full of love and empathy and never will! End of.
Thanks Natalie, this is just brilliant. I’d never thought of myself as stubborn before but this post sums up how I managed to waste 10+ years of my precious life with someone who was bleeding me dry emotionally, self-esteem-wise and financially. I’d put in so much of myself, my time and my money, I was determined to get something back if it killed me – and it almost bloody did.
It reminds me of these previous posts of yours which helped it all become clear to me in the first place:
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/knowing-when-to-fold-bad-investments-in-relationships-seeing-the-bigger-picture/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/it-really-is-ok-to-admit-youve-made-an-error-in-judgement/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/the-trouble-with-feeling-owed-after-a-relationship-investment-goes-sour/comment-page-1/
I’m so much better now, but thanks for continuing to reinforce the message xxx
Agreed Lizzy – I’ve been there with the whole persisting even if it nearly killed me. Never again! Ps I love your site!
Thank you! :-)) xxx
Loved this Infinite Corridor!
@Infinite Corridor: I wasn’t aware of the economics side of things, but yep! I tell myself: the only thing worse than being in an unhealthy relationship for 365 days is – being in it for 366!!!
This was a great article. I have been SOOOOO guilty of this in the past with my AC. I wanted to thank everybody too, for their comments in the last post. You are all so helpful, and coming here has become a nightly ritual for me. It calms me when i feel like im spinning out of control, it grounds me, and it reaffirms my decision to go NC, for the second time in the last three years. This time I WILL stick to it. Its funny, I sat and really thought about things today. I dont want him. I dont want to be with him, I dont want to know what hes doing, and I especially dont want to know who hes doing it all with. All of this will only prove to be a painful “hand in the fire” moment. Weekends are usually really horrible for me, as thats when my AC went and did all his partying, and humping, and drinking, and as it turned out, he lied to me about most of it and I would be at my place, waiting and willing to accept the text message crumbs, the details of how his night was going, until hed tell me that ” he didnt want to be THAT guy texting all night in front of his friends, and i wouldnt hear from him again until the afternoon of the next day. By text of course. Acting like nothing was amiss. Its like it becomes habit, to worry about certain things. Even when these AC’s are not a part of your life anymore. Last weekend I was absolutley sweaty and anxious. This weekend, ive decided to enjoy time with my daughter who is 8 and my Son who is 5, and just come to the realization that everything we “had” was really nothing at all, and thats OK. Live and learn. Ya, it hurts still, and part of me yearns for a return on my investment. But I also know it aint gonna happen. and seeking that will only cause more pain. Thanks Natalie for the reality check!
Thank you for the post, Natalie, it’s like a hammer to my stupid head.
For most of my life, I have, for all my good qualities, also been very impatient, incredibly “spontaneous” and self-centered, and generally rather uninterested in sticking around with anything that doesn’t strike me as absolutely great and super interesting. Before I got together with the EUM, I had identified these character flaws in myself and decided to grow and learn. Grow a bit of patience for the foibles of others, learn to commit and stick with things even though they might be painful or boring at times.
I thought I was being absolutely medal-worthy great in my virtuous quest to increase my tolerance, pain treshold and patience. I was deserving of a prize and some public recognition for being such an angelically good person! I sure as hell didn’t realize that I was just being plain stubborn. I’m a bit shocked at this revelation, but it’s true. Who was I trying to convince? Have I been doing all this just so I could relish in the secret guilty pleasure of knowing that when we break up, as I always knew we eventually would (every time), I could claim the moral high ground and walk away bleeding, but bleeding the holy blood of divine love as a martyr with a halo around my stupid stubborn self-centered head?
Whoa. An eye-opener and no less.
I spend so much time reading these posts, going through the archives, reading the forums and generally cramming all the information so I can be well prepared for ACs. I gotta tell you, these men still get in under my radar. Met one 3 weeks ago, by the second date I was his everything. His dream girl, his future partner, his meaning to live. He wanted to meet my family, plan a future. The works.
Did those alarms go off?
Did the early warning nuclear sirens go into overdrive?
No.
I am ashamed and embarrassed to say that he told me everything I wanted to hear and more and I loved it. Jeez.
If it wasn’t for Natalie and her book and this website I would still be there now, cooing at his every titbit. Which were visibly diminishing by week 2 (can you believe these guys?)
What happened?
I woke up, I realised most of the communication was by text, after the first 2 weeks he had retreated, I felt a cooler wind blow and my instinct had thankfully kicked in to to be on alert for certain inconsistencies. I questioned his slight withdrawal (him managing down my expectations), asked that he call me instead of us having text, he said I was weird and paranoid.
I walked away. Limping and battle worn. But I did it.
It hurt, it hurts but I can see it for all it was. A future faking AC with all kinds of false offerings. I spent 3 weeks of myself on this. If it wasn’t for Natalie Lue and you girls I could have spent 3 years on it wondering what was wrong with me.
I AM learning, I am thrilled that I am actively pursuing my instincts and following through with actions that initially hurt ME but eventually pay off in my heightened self esteem.
But, this is the second guy in as many months to lay it on thick like this. In the first week? I don’t understand the motives. Is it all really just to see if they can get a shag?
I’m going right back to Natalie’s book to see why I am attracting these types and how can I deflect them better. Build myself a better fortress. Or just be cynical about everything? I’m losing my softness, my wanting to believe that there are sensitive, intelligent, respectful and courageous guys out there. They are not on dating websites. I am still learning.
Thank you Natalie, thank you ladies. There is still much work for us to do.
the seamtress
Rejoice – it was only two weeks! And it was two of these FFs because you are getting through them quicker. That’s all.
However, my hot tip is to meet them AS SOON AS YOU CAN. All that messaging can build up a fantasy in both your heads which leads to future fakery.
Also, don’t just stick to online dating. There are agencies that arrange events for singles. The one-on-one thing can get too intense too quick.
I am rejoicing Grace, The intensity at which they pursue is heady and it feels so overpowering that it can only be wrong. I’ve got the pang that twangs in my heart as I did fall for it but I know it’s stuff that will pass. My new mantra,
All Of This Will Pass.
theseamstress
These ACs never seem to amaze me. Why go through so much future faking for a shag or two? Don’t mean to be a stuck record but the AC that did the exact same thing to me, future faked, fast forwarded and then also started a new job whilst I was seeing him then proceeded to disappear! Then had the audacity to text me after 5 months to say “Hey, how’s u”.
Like you say the intensity is way too overpowering and whilst we must take some responsibility its near difficult to realise you are being led up the garden path and into their bed.
Seamstress,
I applaud you lady. I did the same after 7 weeks.
I decided to “Suck it and See” with an ex-AC who came back into my life after 6 years, no less! He promised the world; he wasn’t the idiot who upped and left back then without so much as a reason, promised to talk when we would have problems, and general Future-Faking and Fast-Forwarding. Seven weeks in he started a new job, and I pulled him up on some amber-flag behavior. His overblown, raging reaction became a red flag. He effectively disappeared again, sending me to Coventry, me calling, texting and pleading with him to talk to me – for FOUR days. I was a wreck. The epiphany came when I was on the floor choking with tears, whilst he was still ignoring me. I didn’t need this, I never asked him to come back into my life! I had continued reading this blog throughout, and realised in part thanks to NML that I BLOODY WELL DESERVED BETTER than to be treated like I was in the wrong, and not to compromise my values. I ended it on day 5. Two weeks later, I am still NC, and now concentrating on me – I am proud of myself for standing up for my beliefs and values. It hurts sometimes, like a pang when I think of him, but it will pass. I know I have saved myself from a world of pain in the long term. I would advocate NC for all the ladies here, delete him from FB, Twitter, his number so you won’t get tempted. Write it all down in a journal, to help you collect your thoughts. Day by day ladies, you will heal, just take it one day at a time. Much love xx
Natslayer….well done. However much it hurts to walk away and it does, it hurts for some stupid ridiculous reasons that if you say them out loud make you realise how insubstantial and insincere they really are. Keep staying strong and remember that no man is worth lying in tatters on the floor for. I’ve done it, you’ve done it, get out and stay out. Those overblown rages at your needs are dangerous and red flags all the way. You do deserve better, I deserve better, we all do. The more these men get flushed, the more they’ll have to up their game. I feel sorry for their next ladies who can’t see what they do. Baggage Reclaim should be piloted in secondary schools. It’s helped me more than algebra ever has.
“..came back into my life after 6 years, no less.” And, saying all the right things about how he changed, too… I am sorry for your experience and thank you for sharing. I am going to file this away because I can see it as a future possibility. I have reopened scarcely healed wounds by going another round and won’t do that again but, after so much time, I may believe that real change was possible. It never ends well with these types, does it?
Life is a work in progress The Seamstress. I briefly dated a few Future Faking Mr Unavailables after my epiphany. The key word is briefly . That is what you need to focus on. You survived and you’re wising. There are lessons on there – don’t believe the hype and stop looking to be swept away. That, and never eat yellow snow 😉 (Haha – just thought I’d throw that in)
I’m flushing these ACs quicker than I ever could have before. Thank you! The ability to see this is something I will always be grateful to you for.
I’ll never eat yellow snow. Promise.
I wish I could be so sure at not getting swept away but I’m all nerve endings poised for BS now.
Wow. This article very helpful. I’ve had the epiphany relationship 6 months ago, and mistakenly thought the next guy I would be attracted to would be “the one”. Well, no, he wasn’t. So I have gone back to craving the original unavailable guy from 6 months ago. Like I’ve gone back into an addiction( I am still in No Contact, but my thoughts ruminate over him). Thank you for the reminder- it took 2 dates this time( with Next Guy) as opposed to 8 months (or over 16 years of marriage to an EU guy). Thank you for this blog.
My experience is, it’s better not to worry and wonder about the WHY of who I am attracting, I think of it as, I am simply an attractive woman and all types are going to be attracted to me and want to get to know me. I don’t worry if I attracted the pile of dog poo on the sidewalk, I simply see it for what it is and I don’t step in it.
If you want to hear all those wonderful things you want to hear, have a sit in front of the mirror and say them to yourself!
@Sunshine – well stated, ha ha!!! I’m going to keep that imagery in mind. Now, I need to reduce my turnaround time from 3 months to 3 weeks. Hey, it’s an improvement over my last which took 1.5 years. I wish I had some idea on how long it’s reasonable to go before really believing what someone says. I guess it’s about paying attention to what they say at the get go. I now know what Future Fakers are, to add to my repertoire of things to look out for.
It will happen…just be aware and be honest with yourself.
After getting to know a guy for nearly a year, I learned he had been dating someone else who became his “official” girlfriend. When I realized I had to let go, I noticed “Oh, now I’m bargaining,” “Oh, now I’m clinging to hope,” “Oh, look now I’m trying to be *his* dream and *his* fantasy,” and told myself over and over, “I can accept this is over, I do accept this is over.” I have been very kind to myself and there have been tears, and sessions of sitting in front of the mirror looking into my own eyes, asking, “What hurts, Sunshine? What’s really going on?”
Apparently a 5 yr. old has been making my relationship decisions most of my life, lol.
Considering my extremely abusive relationship history, this has been the easiest entanglement to be in and get out of so far.
I heard this song recently and it helped me snap out of the trance even more:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gaid72fqzNE&feature=fvst
The lyrics go: If I didn’t have you, someone else would do…!
Reminding me of what Natalie always says, “He’s not the Last Chance Saloon” 🙂
When my ex cheated and left me for her I set out on my journey to get him back at all costs. I didn’t care what I had to do, who I hurt (in reality I only ended up hurting myself) or who I screwed over (her since I continued to screw him – I was the other woman to the other woman). OMG when I read what I just wrote it makes me physically ill.
I let my pride and my ego rule my heart and my days for well over 18months. As I’ve said many times before it got me no where except feeling absoulutely worthless about myself. I’m disgusted at what I did in the so called name of love. It wasn’t love it was obsession and that took me on a dangerous path of self-destruction all for someone who didn’t give a damn about me.
All I can say is thank God I found this site. Nat you’ve been a God send to me. Your words have held my hand in my darkest days, lifted me up when I couldn’t stand and gave me back my life. I truly thought I would never recover but here I am 2yrs later from finding you a better and happier person.
At times I read posts here that make me cry as I see their pain as I once
felt mine. Its hard to imagine that there are others out there so callous so cowardly that they do the things they do without any regard to another’s feelings. It truly just blows my mind.
I spoke earlier this week that I’m recovering from angioplasty and got flowers and a text from my ex. He found out from mutual friends. I was conflicted as to responding to him (I didn’t). I remembered reading somewhere, might of been here, if you’re still worring about what he thinks you haven’t come far enough yet. That took me by surprise because I thought I had come far enough.
Just goes to show it an on going battle but one I’m determined to win. This heart problem has given me a whole new perspective on things. I see what’s important ME and what’s not. Life really is too short to give credence to anyone who doesn’t add value to mine. He lost out I didn’t.
You are totally winning the battle against the old pattern or even letting him back into your life MaryC. I hope you’re feeling better and sometimes these things happen to show us where our attention should be. Put good feelings and energy into you and fill your heart with good love xxx
Working hard to get someone to commit to me, who was waffling after 2 years, had what I thought was the desired result: he married me. Suffice to say it was a rough matriage, he was mean and abusive. What I “caught” was a great white shark! I was apparently paying more attention 25 years ago to wanting to be married than to his lack of commitment or to behavioral red flags. I thought marriage would make things “happily ever after”. Dumb!! Anyways, at least I got 2 beautiful children. Divorced now 12 years, that experience cured me forever from trying to hang on to a guy who wants to walk or a guy who isn’t right. Dating at 52 one does meet some interesting characters. Just ended with my first Future Faker. When he abruptly wanted to leave it hurt but I opened my hands and let him go. I definitely want a relationship where we are both voluntarily checked in and good to each other.
Hello everyone, just back for a quick read because I love to see what Natalie is talking about next! Just want to share a little story. My mom is 75 and she is very depressed right now. She is broke, alone, and she feels her time has run out. So I thought about this: yes, she is broke, but she never developed a meaningful career doing something she loved. She was very fond of babies, so let’s say she had a career involving babies, but it didn’t make much $. Ok, so at 75 she might still be broke but she would have enjoyed her career journey. Next, she always chose the wrong men, and the nice ones she let go. So she had three bad marriages, several bad relationships, but never a good healthy one because she CHOSE not to (waiting for the chemistry, the nice guys annoyed her, whatever). So let’s say she had chosen a good man and he was with her for many years and died. Ok, so she would still be 75 and alone, but she would have enjoyed the journey! So my thinking is, sometimes we can end up with the same result, there are no guarantees in life, but if we make the right choices at the end we can look back and be grateful for our journey. Watching my mom is a wake up call to me! If you are stubborn, and don’t learn how to let the bad go and SEEK the good, at the end of the day all you have is regrets that you didn’t get the life you wanted. You CAN choose a better life, you CAN get over these assholes (I speak from experience! NC all the way) and you CAN choose someone who loves you (yes, he loves me and I am learning to be vulnerable and love him back, even if he is a nice, available man and not a cheating MM to spice things up!). I feel very sorry for my mom, but all I see are bad choices…hers. I WILL NOT BE HER!! And as I have been learning over the last year (thanks Nat!), I don’t HAVE TO BE HER!! I am the CEO of my own life, the Master of My Domain. I have confidence in me, because my flush handle is finally in place and I have learned to use it!
BTW, I am 50. And I met him online. I am having a blast with him, and the sex is amazing because I know he is mine. No anxiety. Anxiety = flush. Period.
OldEnough,
I know there is no “one size fits all” for online dating, but how did you do it? I tried a few times (only about 3 weeks each), and I know I was not ready at the time, but when I am ready, I would like to try again… I was really disconcerted by the number of fake profiles trying to get my personal info, and by the possibly real ones being downright rude (as in asking me how much did I weigh before even starting a conversation, or sending messages like: “you are probably really fat because you do not have a full body picture”, or because you have too few pictures, or “text me a close-up of your face before I talk to you.”). Of course I did not continue such contacts, but they made me wary…
P., this is just my online experience. First, I did not go back on until my self esteem was much stronger and rejection was not going to hurt so much. I created a good, positive profile, lots of recent pictures so they knew what they were getting. I did several searches myself, did not just wait for them to find me. Then if we were interested, I did no more than 2 or 3 emails before we talked on the phone, then set up the meeting. This eliminates that pretend “I know this person” feeling that sets up false expectations. I also kept many men in the pipeline, so that I was not pinning too much hope on any one man. At any one time I was “talking” to 3-4 men. If they were at all rude to me, I deleted them and moved on. This is a big one (Natalie knows when I finally recognized this) IT IS NOT ABOUT ME! Assholes are assholes. I think the biggest thing for me was to just not take it personally, it’s a numbers game.Then when I met guys I liked, I kept them at arm’s length to see where it went. This eliminated painful rejection as well. My bf’s profile made him look like the biggest player, so I moved very slowly with him. This is what worked for me: only do this if you can handle the rejection, it comes with the territory. Always remember it is not about you. Then, move slowly, your heart is worth protecting. Last, only do it if you are having fun, the less I took it seriously, the more the men wanted to date me. Sort of like the opposite of being desperate. Oh, one final thing, I changed how I interacted with them…I not only recognized the red flags, but actually did something about it (flush!) . I also didn’t automatically flush the nice guys, I gave them more of a chance. I am 50, I have wrinkles, I am far from perfect myself! My bf is about 30 lbs over weight and I am a runner, in good shape. But I think he is so darned handsome! I went out with at least 20 men before him and continued to date others until we went exclusive. Odds were, one of them was going to click eventually! Happy Man Shopping!
Thank you so much for the advice, OldEnough! I will print out and reread. I like that you gave practical tips about how many you were talking to at the same time etc.
“Anxiety = flush. Period.”
I love this. Simple. Easy connection to make. Anxiety = bye bye.
Fantabulosoooooooooo!
Good for you!
Sugar
Oldenough,
Your post illustrates an important point: To go for the short term fix of unhealthy relationships often leaves you stranded and unsatisfied in the long run. I am sorry for your mom and wish her well, but her story is a humbling reminder that we are architects of our own design. Forget the immediate rush of grasping crumbs from an EUM. Can this person enhance my life…in the long term?
Once upon a time, I didn’t keep anyone in my life that didn’t bring beauty or love or positive energy. It’s time to go back to that.
OldEnough… I lost my mother last June.. Miss her dearly but near the end of her life we had a conversation. She knew she would be passing soon. So the conversation went something like this: The AC is not the one for you. I dont want you to end up alone like me, (as like your mother she made some bad choices in men in her life)… I want you to find someone to take care of you and give you what u deserve… I will treasure that conversation for my lifetime…She always wanted the best for me & my siblings..
So if and when I am ever ready to date again I will hear those words in my head and take the knowledge I have learned from this site & the people on here and FLUSH when appropriate and learn from my past mistakes…. Thanks for sharing 🙂
Oh my god, Natalie. This is exactly what I needed to hear right now. It I feel myself getting weak during the next few weeks of NC, I know I’ll be coming back to this article. If I am so incredibly stubborn that I’m willing to persist in trying to revive a dead, dysfunctional relationship then surely I have the willpower to change MYSELF and move forward.
“I’m gonna flog this donkey till it collapses because I just know that this has something to do with me not being good enough.” Yep, that’s me to a T. Pursuing this relationship was all about me seeking validation that I’m not unlovable, rejectionable, etc. It’s pure selfishness and emotional laziness on my part. Yuck. As you point out, even if I had “won”I would have still been miserable. That’s what I need to be reminding myself of when I start getting caught up in the “coulda, woulda, shouldas”.
Hey Oldenough,
Good to hear from you. Sorry to hear about your mother but congrats to you for making different choices. As I read about your mother, I could imagine my daughter writing the same thing about me (relative to my unhealthy choices in men) in 20 years unless I start making different choices and get rid of my stubborn as a mule streak. It’s wonderful to hear success stories such as yours because some days it seems impossible to change and LET.IT.GO. Keep going girl and give your mom a hug.
I sure hope I didn’t pass down my stubborn streak to my daughter.
Oh Natalie,
You’ve described me to a T. God, I am the most stubborn person on the planet. I’m a Taurus and, although I don’t go for that stuff, it is me.
I guess I’m wondering what is the difference between persistence and stubbornness? In some areas of my life being persistent has been valuable. But this last disaster with the exMM was simply a case of playing in traffic and doggedly pursuing a stupid fantasy. Here’s the thing, even after over a year being a studious BR student, I still feel compelled to run into oncoming traffic. I feel like I’m failing because I just can’t LET.IT.GO. and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt the one blocking me is me. ARRGH. I’m frustrated. This should be over by now.
At least one good thing, I have broken the pattern of getting under the next guy in order to get over the last one!
This is an excellent post.
@runner: My theory is that persistence often helps us to win power struggles. If we don’t give up all that quickly, odds are that the other side will give in sooner or later (especially if we are in a fairly strong position anyway).
The problem is that relationships aren’t (or shouldn’t be) power struggles. A good relationship can only be formed by two equals who voluntarily choose to do so (at least that’s what I believe).
There were so many losses in my past I never grieved properly. Whenever something went wrong, whenever I had to opt out of another toxic situation, I quickly replaced it with another fantasy. It wasn’t always guys (truth told, it rarely was during the past decade, with the exception of a few “episodes”). Over time, I learned to replace guys with compulsive volunteering (where I acted like a true codependent), hunting for approval at work, trying to get accepted by various groups of people who weren’t likely to do so…
I’m unable to do that anymore. Enough is enough. I want to work through all of this crap properly, all the way down to the roots (besides a narcissistic mother, there was a pedophile father and therefore many more memories I don’t like to deal with, but I’m at a point where I have to… and I’m almost happy about being at this point).
Hey EllyB,
Thanks to BR, I had to finally deal with my family of origin issues. I’d done the therapy route but nobody is as clear, honest, patient, and as focused as Natalie. And I was aghast and grateful to see I wasn’t the only stubborn person on the planet. You all kept me off meds.
It is about grieving the losses. I’m still coming to grips with my pedophile father too. I can see my stubborn streak is born of my denial. However, being a truly stubborn to the core, I spoke with the exMM today via telephone. It didn’t go anywhere. Same story different day. Same ole’ same ole’. Over a year later he’s still married. I’m not. Time to rain in the stubborn mule.
runner: did you initiate that conversation? if so, what’s up? i assume it means something to you around your progress because of the way you bring it up. you certainly are a stubborn one when it comes to interacting with that guy!
runnergirl,
what I noticed about letting go, is that I wanted a “once and for all” letting go. Meaning, I wanted to be able to let it go, ONCE, and never deal with “it” again, like Lord of the Rings, where they talk about the Choice to End All Choices.
What I’m finding is that letting go…means letting go over. and over. and over. again. As many times as it takes. You have been letting it go, you surely have had moments in your life where you didn’t think about the MM at all, so give yourself some credit and notice where you HAVE let go and quit telling yourself the lie that you can’t! Because you have…and you just need to let it go again and again, whenever you think of him, as many times as it takes.
This past week whenever I have noticed thoughts about the recent guy I fell for (who turned out to have a girlfriend), I would sort of suck my mind back into the NOW, and ask myself how my mind could be serving MY life. So far I registered a few domain names and 2 DBA’s, planting seeds for a business I’ve been dreaming of for a a long time 🙂
Oh My Gosh, Runnergirl!! My mom is a Taurus!! You are the most stubborn sign in astrology! But thank goodness for free will…I admit I do believe in astrology for certain traits, but I also believe we all have the ability to make choices and perhaps “adopt” good traits from other signs as well. But the first step is recognizing the stubborness and how it will hurt only you. Please, please don’t be my mom. LET.HIM.GO!!
The day will come that you will honestly look back at your MM and be glad you are no longer in it. The last time I heard from my MM, I was doing lots of fun dating, and had just met the guy who is my bf now. He did not replace the MM, because it was too soon to know he would, but it was August when I had the last text. I sort of half heartedly answered it, but the “pull” was definitely waning. The next time I heard from him, text of course, at Xmas, I was already very involved with my bf. It was so easy to delete that text. Now I look back at that time in my life and cannot believe the bottom feeding I was doing, with a man of no character cheating on his wife and kids, and a shitty businessman to boot! LOL! I seriously think “WTF was I thinking?”. But he no longer holds any attraction for me, with or without my bf to distract me. It is SO DONE. You will get there too, I promise!! Hugs and good thoughts!!
P.S. do you have any idea (I know you do!!) how good it feels to say to a man “I am free this Sat. night, what time can I plan to see you?”. All that damn sneaking around and being last on the priority list was THE WORST!! Now when I want a good fuck, all I have to do is ask, ha ha!!
Grace, Magnolia, Oldenough, and Sunshine,
You see it correctly. I am seeing my stubbornness based on my comments and then through your responses. Yes, that’s why Natalie’s post so hit me between the eyes. This stubbornness thing runs deep. As I said, I’m not much into astrology but folks have always used the adjective “stubborn” when describing me, among others! I didn’t see myself as stubborn. I was just right, except when I was wrong. This was a good wake-up call. Stef’s comment’s below sum it up nicely. It’s about bending reality to fit the fantasy and if I may add a comment, for me, it’s about clingy to the fantasy in the face of reality. Then if you add denial, dysfunction, and perfection, it equals stubborn. As you can tell, I’m having an another aha moment.
Magnolia, the telephone conversation with the exMM was initiated by a group email regarding an upcoming event which would involve a group of folks and he wanted to know if I objected to him attending. Our old softball team is getting together to go to a preseason game. Since they are my friends/work colleagues and he was only a member through me, he was right in asking. But we started the softball team together so we were the leaders. It didn’t matter to me if he attends or not. He’s married and I’m not that woman. He can attend or not. I’m too stubborn to go back to being his optional, doormat OW.
Oh yes Oldenough, I know, I know, I know. So glad to hear you are first on the priority list. So can’t believe your mother is a Taurus. I’m seeing the end of the road with the exMM. I’m going to be more patient and kind to myself as I LET. HIM. GO.
Why bother is a very good question we should be asking ourselves with our EU’s and AC’s, but usually we don’t. Instead, we dig in our heels and play the stubborn card. Oh yes, I am profoundly guilt of that one.
Natalie, you have really figured this thing out! My heartfelt thanks to you and the BR community for exposing the alarming patterns that too many men and women are repeating, while every day feeling sadder and emptier.
But no more!!
I “get” that any satisfactory relationship with my EU is simply not possible. I aver it. I swear to it. Then, like a lightning bolt, I have a thought/desire/bright idea to reach out to him once more. Completely involuntary, this thought, but it sneaks in. Stubbornly. But I want to show that I am even more stubborn, and validate MYSELF first, last and always.
You have really helped me. Thanks and blessings on you all.
I am so happy I found your blog and am amazed you’re not a psychologist…I am a new loyal follower! I agree with this post…I always say you have to go with the flow…not against it. Think about surfing with the wave not trying to get past it…life is easier that way!
And…Congratulations!
I just nominated you for the TMI Award!
For details on the award and how to pay it forward, visit:
Help, I can’t figure out how to nominate Natalie. I would like to nominate Natalie for the patron saint.
Ditto to Runnergirl ????? I always feel better after I come to this site and read about stories dealing with issues I am having… Its really cheap therapy 🙂
I nominate Natalie !!!!
I confronted my stubbornness last month. Was away at a conference and was really attracted to one of the managers. He had unavailable vibes and didn’t offer much encouragement, but a few times he would turn around and make comments/ smiley faces at me while people were talking, making me spark like crazy and we had some great conversations.
It took so much self control not to force it and it would have been like running into oncoming traffic because he was, to me, on a lofty pedestal and I knew that even if anything did happen, I would be vulnerable and would morph and would expect him to drive. He was such a distant and unrealistic prospect, lives on the other side of the world I should add, yet my drive to pursue him was strong and I was relieved when he left because I’d be able to chill with some people I met and not be concerned with him. I noticed he was the centre of attention and other women were quite shamelessly focusing on him, but I think healthier women draw the line sooner and don’t dwell on it so much.
I feel like one day I should be with someone really interesting, because I put so much into my work and give a shit about things, have my own direction. But I fear that it will never happen because my instincts are so powerful. Though I’m not religious, a friend told me a bible quote I like that “the heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?”. So I can’t be the only one with a heart that’s sometimes my worst enemy, but still I’ve got into my 30s and not had a meaningful relationship. I don’t have much hope. I know men who treat their women so wonderfully but don’t think that can ever be me.
It was good to be conscious of it, and to realise that with my behaviour, it should be no surprise that men have often either rejected me outright, teased me or treated me as a fallback/option. I can count on one hand the number of men who I’ve felt equal to, and I have let them slip away, even feeling contempt if they become attached to me. I walked away from one man who showed me how respectful they can be and I regret it now. Way before seeing BR, I knew I was going for unavailables but didn’t realise the ones I ‘won’ would inevitably be taking the piss. It’s obvious now and I have wasted a lot of time in stubborn and pointless pursuit – well said Natalie.
Happy,
I’m with you on the “powerful instincts”. For me, that now means run. Just my experience. I’m as stubborn as the day is long. I’ve spent two years trying to force a square peg in a round hole, and I’m still trying. By the same token, I’m trying to be not my worst enemy. It feels a bit like I’m a war with myself.
If I were you based on what you’ve observed, I’d run. I know the stubborn streak. He’s just another EU. Crumbs.
I’m 52. Good god, how could somebody 30-something think they are in the last chance saloon? You are a kid…I mean that in the nicest way.
Thanks runnergirl – your comments are kind and helpful. I know from what I’ve seen that there’s no such thing as a last chance saloon at any age. I don’t believe the men will run out, I just feel a very long way from having healthy self esteem and healthy drives. That said, from what I’ve heard on other comments, epiphany to healthy doesn’t happen overnight and it’s likely there will be repeats of FBG behaviour along the way.
It’s just how long that gap is between realising how you’re setting yourself up for a fall, and then acting in your best interests. It feels like it’s taking forever, and you seem to feel that way too, though making progress. A few years ago, I would have been sad when that exciting manager left but because of awareness, his leaving now left me in a place where I could happily be myself and be around mutually enriching people. It’s like years of my life in a week-long conference. That’s all well and good but what if one comes along who doesn’t go away to the other side of the world after a week? I could’t handle it right now.
Happy B.
Maybe taking a time out? If you are anxious, it may be time to get to the cause of the anxiety? I’m getting there myself. You may be doing the woulda, shoulda, routine. What if he leaves, what if he doesn’t? Who knows. I’ve done a year of men-o-pause, other than a few slips with the ex MM, and it’s been really interesting. It does feel like it’s lasting forever and I’m impatient and frustrated.
Here’s your clue. “I could’t handle it right now.” Listen to yourself. You couldn’t handle it right now. Thus, you can’t handle it write now. That’s okay. Just listen to yourself. As I write to you, I’m writing to me!
I think I’m still stubbornly holding onto “the glass slippers,” and some really screwed up beliefs about my inability to take care of myself.
I take care of myself in all ways, but, yet, I think a deep part of me still thinks it would still be better with a prince, living in that castle, and I know that is such total and complete utter fantasy full of crap. Yet, I wonder?
So many messages to overcome, messages from my mother, father, brothers, and sisters about “needing a husband to take care of me.”
And, I don’t want it to be true, but I think those glass slippers are one of the last things holding me back. I think some of my self-sabotage …deliberate procrastination, lack of motivation, etc., and not living up to my full potential is a way of proving a very deep self-destructive limiting belief: You cannot take care of yourself; life is a dangerous place; you need a husband to protect you.
And the really disappointing thing about this is that I clearly know better than that, but yet it is still there floating around, so I hope by saying it out loud it will disappear, and I can release myself, and really jump into life now; I dunno; I’m moving forward, but deeeeeeeeeeep down I still feel like something is holding me back.
Thanks Natalie for another excellent article! 🙂 🙂
This post is so appropriate for me right now. I recently slept with a friend who I had had a months long flirtation with. Since that night, things have been different between us, and while I haven’t been in his face and expecting anything to come of that night, in my heart I have been hoping for something more to happen. And I’ve been allowing my stubbornness to keep me stuck in that night. I had been trying hard to get his attention and hoping that he would make some kind of overture at being more than friends. I know now that it was what it was, a drunk night of sex between friends, and I see that I need to let go of the stubborn thoughts I have that it can and should be more. You can’t force something that isn’t there, and I need to accept that.
Let.It.Go….especially if you keep going back again and again and again to the same crappy situation and you keep thinking that this time things will be different and that you will get them to make you the exception to their rule of behaviour. Pride comes before a fall…but so does stubbornness.
Ah, yes, the same crapulence… just hoping that it the only problem was timing was wrong – wishful thinking…
I would just like to reiterate that Natalie is right on with everything. My stubbornness is thinking that just once I might be an exception to the rule. The guy that just broke up with me last week, I knew based on limited info I got when I met him, that I shouldnt go out with him. Number one I met him in a sports bar and all the bartenders knew his name, I thought alcoholic right there, that was later proven. He had been just less than 3 months out of a 3 yr ltr, that he immediately got into while he was seperated from his wife of 12 yrs, they were only seperated a month. So he had no downtime between the two. Then I find out that he was still communicating with the ec live in up until he met me maybe during. He tells me all this like he believes there is nothing wrong with it…hmmm. But because he was treating me well and doing all the right things, I thought I’d wait and see, instead of opting out which is what I should have done. It never works! Waiting and seeing never works, I’ve stayed too long in relatiinships that I know at the offset arent going to work only to be broken up with over something trivial by the guy. Now my friends and family wonder what the hell is wrong with me that these great guys keep breaking up with me. There is something wrong but its not what they think. Because I never tell these guys business while I’m dating them, I just sing their praises, when it all falls apart I am the one who looks damaged. Its upsetting. Sorry I’m just ranting and having a bad moment because not only is my heart broken but I’m having to do recon on my reputation and I know it is my fault. I know I shouldnt care what people think but I do.
Hi Natalie/everyone
Great post !
I did persist because I truly loved him and because I was up sh*t creek without a paddle.
The longer you persist the greater the loss of self.
Forcing anything is only useful and effective when it is yourself you are forcing. I forced myself to work and study hard so I could break away from the family cycle of no education, alcoholism, and abuse. I force myself to exercise hard to avoid a family tendency towards obesity and diabetes. I forced myself to work on my woodpile yesterday although it was a nice day and there were other things I’d rather have done. However, I think that it is impossible to force oneself or others to feel differently about another. To do so would involve trying to alter both the basic character and experiences of yourself or another. I will never be able to force my AC to give a rats about me; he is a player and thats his basic character. Although I have maintained NC as best I can with a colleague, I still cannot force the pain to go away. Perhaps the one good thing about on line dating has been learning to be rejected and to let go-repeatedly. I probably will never begin a relationship from being on line. One dating coach told me that given my geographic/economic realities along with the reality and bad reputation of my community, I am probably SOL. However, I am learning a lot about how men behave these days which will be good down the road. You also cannot force others to understand how you feel. AC unfortunately rode with some of us to a meeting out of town; he mentioned to me that I ought to reinstate the Friday night get-togethers I used to coordinate. Really?! I should plan a social event where he can bring/flirt with/ cozy up to/whomever and I can be relegated to the “strays table” and watch him act towards someone else the same way he acted towards me a year ago? I do believe my time is being better spent getting away, meeting new people, running, chopping firewood, anything but that. Are people really this clueless? I am hoping that the topic does not come up again. If not, I may have to break NC and tell him I find his presence hurtful and as you Brits say, to sod off.
I don’t know, miskwa, sounds like that dating coach is more a dating downer. Even people in impoverished areas or with menial jobs find love, too.
Your work ethic is admirable. And you’re right, I’d rather u be Paul Bunyon than orchestrate another of his Friday night flirtations. He’s not only clueless but thoughtless. Keep chopping.
I am learning through BG to deal with my stubbornness and to let it go. He will never love me like I love him – he made that so clear. I am ignoring his attempts at contacting me but it’s not easy because my heart tells me one thing and my head the other (know I have to listen to my head, I listened to my heart several times (gave him so many chances) and always ended up on the short end of the stick). Hurts like hell. Every day I pray for the strength that I need. Today is not a good day. Tomorrow – hopefully better.
Sunshine, you are right. I want a final letting it go moment…FINISH IT. FLUSH. That’s what has been frustrating me along with my stubbornness. Thank you for your help. I’m going to have to keep flushing. Letting go sometimes isn’t about the final moment. It’s about continuing to let go. That’s what I didn’t get.
Good for you for registering domain names and for planting seeds for a business.
Your comment so helped me. Thank you.
Runnergirl, I think you are expecting to be hit by a thunderbolt of eff you. The reality is that one day you do decide to say eff you and then you have to get on with your life. The more you do, the more distance there is between now and them. But if you stare at something a lot, twist and turn it over, examine it, then yeah you’ll think about them a lot. A lot of this thinking is a sense of having a purpose and force of habit. You need a new purpose and you need to keep adapting your habits.
Throw yourself into new challenges and experiences that enrich you and grow your self-confidence. My youngest is a Taurus – we call her Grace Jones. I find that when we talk to her patiently (even when she’s worn down our last nerve), talk about favourable alternatives or explain why something is being done, we get a better result.
Also if you’re sick of thinking about it, schedule a time for rumination each week and for the rest of the time, have other thoughts and activities to replace it. Also just because you have a thought, it doesn’t mean you have to chase it.
I realised something recently which I think will help you: when you listen to yourself, do you listen with love or are you your worst critic, impatient, frustrated, etc? That right there can really change the relationship with yourself.
Wow, hahaaaaa, I’m a Taurus too! I think and think, and I’m addicted to research…a sense of purpose, huh…throwing myself in seems to be the only way I can get started sometimes, and yeah, if you want me to do something it has to make sense to me, and then I’ll do it, that’s how people handle me…I don’t like to be told what to do, so I like options…everyone tells me I’m stubborn…never take “no” for an answer, drove my mom nuts!
I got my way all the time, I still want my way…constantly fight for it
I’m a bit wary of parents who call their kids “stubborn”. My parents told me I was “stubborn” a million times I guess, but truth told, they never allowed me to have a mind of my own. They always expected me to put up with even the most outrageous abuse meekly and gratefully (!!!). Whenever I offered any resistance, I was told I was “stubborn” (or worse).
In my book, it’s okay for kids to have a mind on their own, even if they might be a nuisance to their parents at times. Of course, their parents can’t (and shouldn’t) always agree with them, but they shouldn’t trash their kids simply for disagreeing. Just my two cents.
If a coworker always tries to offload unwelcome tasks onto me, and I say “no”, that’s by no means unhealthy “stubbornness” in my book (no matter whay my coworker might say). If a guy doesn’t want a relationship with me and I “stubbornly” try to get him to commit to me anyway, that’s the kind of unhealthy behavior NML is talking about. It’s trying to control other people, which we should never do.
Hey EllyB, I was just joking around with Natalie, but I hear you, and I agree, I did have a “mind of my own,” which culturally was deemed “stubborn”…it was what it was, I did not listen to my parents, and I know some of it
Was my personality, and some of it was because I thought they were, abusive, inconsistent idiots who blew hot and cold, super nice to mad wicked–no parenting skills, I know abuse, and it included being spoiled, and I do have a hard time accepting “no” and I know I’ve trampled over people to get what I want, but yes, I’ve also
Have had problems with thinking for myself, and enforcing my own boundaries because I didn’t learn how
To.think, period, forget having a mind of my own. It was just doing what I want and blindly following social programming. But, if I was to say no to a co-worker, to me that isn’t being stubborn. That would be enforcing a boundary…”I’m not doing your work for you.” So I thin k you and I agree, eh maybe only four cents, but I think we are on the money. 😉
runnergirl
I sympathise. i am going through a vortex of obsession over the crush. I decided to accept he’s not interested. Since then, I’ve bumped into him a couple of times, in the street no less. He’s asked how I am and if I’m all right. I must have looked pretty shell-shocked when I saw him yesterday. NO – I’VE BEEN OBSESSING ABOUT YOU FOR WEEKS!!! I wish he would just disappear.
Even though I’m miserable, I find the negativity and the retreat from people very comforting. In this place nothing can get in. I know it’s all self-defeating and a bad habit but I KNOW how to do it. I’m stubbornly holding onto this position. I’m not even looking forward to seeing my nieces this weekend because it will force me out of my shell. I WANT TO BE UNHAPPY. I want to stay in lockdown.
On the plus side, it’s been well over a year since I’ve felt like this, which is a record. I even got through the winter without the dreaded blues. I will get out the other side.
I’ve nothing helpful to say – just, I know how you feel and however smart we are, however much insight we have, it is still a struggle to change, and right now I am fed up with struggling. At our age, you and me have been holding onto the same patterns and thoughts for a long time. It’s not that mysterious. Ther’s nothing wrong with us. It’s all perfectly understandable. Patience.
Grace, I do feel for you and you know what? I would do the same as you and feel like he’s not interested, as you don’t want to be making excuses for why he hasn’t asked you out. That said, I think there is a difference between going “If he’s interested, he’ll ask me out, so in the meantime I’ll get on with my life” and “He’s not interested…hmmm I wonder why he’s not interested and I wonder why I can’t stop thinking about if he’s interested or why he’s not interested and I wonder why I’m obsessing and I wonder about why I’m obsessing about obsessing. I also want to be strong like bull and not let on that I give a shit, but actually I do give a shit. Oh why did the first man I fancy have to not be interested?” That’s tiring to type and damn tiring to live it.
I want to come over there and give you a shake and observe what is really going on between you both. There’s all of this smoke and mirrors, reading things, misreading things no doubt, and all in a church environment, where I know that when people are really into their church, they don’t move fast for fear of endangering going back and wrecking a relationship. Now that doesn’t mean I’m making excuses for him – what I am saying is that you’re not going to the Church of Match.com. Just like being in a work setting affects the speed at which something may happen between two people, so does church.
If you feel this unhappy, it will be showing. You need to come back to earth. Write a Feeling’s Diary. Force yourself out of your comfort zone and have a normal conversation with him. Don’t fan the flames of drama. Even if he isn’t interested, you’re not going to die from it! You.Don’t.Want.To.Be.Unhappy. You think you do and it is your habit to be, but your actions suggest that you don’t. Fight it – this is an opportunity to put everything you’ve learned and your emotional backbone to good use. Where has that fighting spirit gone?
And let me say something to you Grace – see my last comment to Runnergirl? It applies to you also. You’re very good at being supportive and even tough as old boots with others, in a compassionate but no BS way…and yet, you do not listen with love to yourself. I don’t doubt you’d tell someone else to grow a pair in the same situation, but you would not be saying it with a voice of criticism or judgement. You are being very hard on yourself. It’s like you have punished yourself for having some feelings, and the worst thing is, you punished yourself before anything really happened.
Can’t you just talk to a fricking man? Does it have to immediately turn into a grand romance to gratify your feelings?
Don’t let me have to come and do an intervention on you!
Thanks Nat
We’ve had more than a few normal conversations, which I feel is what got me into this mess. I think that having fewer (preferably no) convos will make it less messy. It’s a control thing. Retreat! Retreat!
Yes I am punishing myself for having feelings.
Can I just talk to a frickin man? Evidently not.
I’ve been keeping a feelings diary and observed that speaking to him sends me into a tailspin.
Yes, I do need to get on with my life. I prefer not to because it’s easier to deal with “down” than “up-and-down”. Despite myself, I’m starting to feel better BUT if I feel better, I will let my guard down. If I let my guard down, I will let myself speak to him … ETC ETC ETC!
Back to the topic, I guess the mantra of the stubborn is:
AT ALL COST, STICK TO WHAT YOU KNOW.
@Grace
@Natalie
@Twin
@runnergirl
Eeeewwww, uh, this conversation is definitely resonating with me: I’m a Taurus as well. Grace you definitely aren’t alone; er, I have a church guy of my own, and I was just trying to be friends with the dude, and he exhibited some AC behaviors right after I “put myself out there,” and either in fear of rejection and/or “wising up” “I basically thought–is he in or is he out? ; it looks like he’s out…retreat! retreat!–FLUSH!”
Yep, there’s nothing like the safety of isolation (although, I believe mine is still a necessary, good thing for my recovery).
Oh boy, and yes, I always pretend like “I don’t give a shit, ” …strong as a bull–that’s soooo me, LOL, etc. And, I tailspin when I am around men that I am interested in..oops, I’m not supposed to be looking yet. 🙂
I know I am afraid to even make friends with this guy, but I understand why…; I just don’t like being vulnerable…baby steps, baby steps…yes, PATIENCE and love for self is a key for me as well. I had to self-correct when I realized that I was beating myself up for just having feelings for this guy, and then of course I had to fess up that I was interested in him as more than a friend, but I think this guy is an AC, so I’m not planning on snaking him out–going to stay committed to this decision, despite my tendency to waffle and over think “what makes sense.”
Hmmm, *scratching my head,* this is a great reminder to not forget about “personality” versus codependency because I am seeing some overlapping traits and issues.
Thank you all for the great shares! I was so helped by that, and I am so grateful to you all.
(((((HUGS))))) 🙂 🙂
@Nat, your reply to Grace made me think some myself, since I am in a work environment. Of course, one can only use that as an excuse for so long. I am having a very hard time deciding whether to keep my mouth shut.
@Grace, I felt that old familiar sadness when I read your story. Smoke and mirrors…I’m having them now too but I was in a very lengthy situation with someone where it was a daily/semi-daily thing. After a while it became difficult to separate reality from fiction. It still haunts me to this day. I agree with Natalie, I think you should consider taking action. Actually, the post I was thinking of before your response in regards to my situation is the same one I’m thinking of again now for you… https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/suck-it-and-see-to-kill-off-curiosity-and-get-out-of-relationship-groundhog-day/
I personally find it really hard to stop ruminating until I “suck it and see.” It really has done the trick for me a few times though. Ask yourself: what is the worst that can happen?
Hey grace, I asked out a guy finally this week. He usually pops into the cafe at work but lately been a bit sparse so I’ve found him on facebook and friended him – which was accepted – and then messaged him saying if he’d like to go out on a date.
Well, silence so far – if I don’t get a reply by 5 pm tomorrow, it’s time to cut the losses and de-friend. FLUSH!
I have to say, it feels great to be over the assclown and wielding my new sense of self!
tired
that’s cool, glad to hear you made a move.
It’s not appropriate for me to flush the crush (that rhymes) because we go to the same church . The couple of times I’ve vowed to avoid him he’s sought me out, or we’ve bumped into each other by accident. I can’t just tell him to bugger off. He hasn’t done anything wrong. The input into our friendship/acquaintance is 50:50 between the two of us, and completely respectful, so … no flushing. And I don’t want to play the game of being cool to pique his interest.
I’m only winding back (or trying to) for now because I have to overcome the obsessiveness. That’s nothing to do with him, it’s in my own head.
On the plus side, I feel better already. Yeah, a lot can change in a few hours. The weekends are tricky for me because I get lonely and I’m not busy enough, so my thoughts start to torment me. My Sunday evening gloomies go back years and years. Again, nothing to do with him.
I may just be using him as a repository for my residual bad feelings about myself. Historically, relationships with men is where I’ve played it out. I need to stop it or I’ll never be able to speak to one ever again. Too much of a blunt instrument.
grace,
i know it’s not easy but follow NML’s tips and it will get better. don’t feel bad for crushing but recognize it for what it is. glad he’s treats you with respect. who knows you might stay friends or it might eventually lead to something else. try not to worry where it may or may not go.
right now i am healing from the bs dealt to me from my former EUM/AC and fixing my windows, bolting my doors. looking back i realize i was a glutton for punishment. blew up the short good times in my mind & ignored the facts. no progression with things…i kind of feel vulnerable right now & want a wall of china separating me & men, i guess i’m a bit afraid i’ll fall for another one, another unavailable ac…& my heart is so sore i just want to focus on my friends, family,God & me. are you dealing with a bit of this? hopefully not. anyways i don’t want to be slightly attracted to any guys right now but that’s how God made me and i’ve felt drawn to one lately nonetheless but have not acted on it. yes, he is”unsuitable” i figured out that after observing him. good that i recognized him for what he is right away this time & that it’s not good for me to have a close relationship with a guy right now. smarter now. sending good thoughts your way.
“T ” you are sooooooo V’ereeee SWAG; I love it! 🙂 🙂
I can’t wait to get my swag on…when I am ready .
Oh, and it’s “gettin’ good! 🙂 🙂
I can see how my stubbornness is affecting the relationship that I am forming with myself: I thought I was suffering from the Cinderella Complex, but maybe not….
I’ve tapped into some more limiting beliefs, and as it turns out, they are beliefs that most codependents have. Some of them I have worked through already as a result of my healing journey, but others are still there, and of course they are the ones causing me problems, and “bingo” it is a HUGE AH-HA moment! 🙂
I am sooooo happy to discover them because I was going around in a circle of setbacks trying to figure out why I wasn’t changing in some problem areas.
As Natalie always says, you have to stop focusing on the ex, and start focusing on YOURSELF, and if I hadn’t stopped obsessing about my ex’s, well, I would have missed out on a wonderful opportunity to improve myself and become a better person.
Ok, so it’s back to work. Hang tough ladies and gents! Thanks again Natalie! 🙂 🙂 and one more 🙂
Hiya everyone!
I havent posted for a while but I’m still reading =)
this post and some of the comments really remind me of my last fast forwarding AC and felt compelled to share!
I was so so stubborn with my last fast forwarder, i didnt even realise what was happening as i got swept away. but then (as usual – and of course i didnt notice or realise even though i’m equipped with baggagereclaim) he started blowing ice cold, i was so stubborn that he was going to turn back into the man he was at the beginning that i hung in there for dear life! but after rereading some articles on here about fast forwarding it hit me square in the face. I am such a fool!!!! i fell for all the “i cant believe how quickly im falling for you” “i feel like iv known you all my life” “I’m ready for this im so into you” …. to “i’ll call you” (no call) “i fell asleep” (in the middle of the day, for 3 hours, every single day? he should really see a doctor) “well i rung you and you didnt bother answering” (because i was at work, where i am at 2pm every single day of the week”. i finally dumped him, and it was the best thing iv ever done. i seriously urge ANYONE who finds they’re being blown cold to take a step back, reread some articles that apply to you and reassess. worked for me =)
xxx <3
Great topic!
I sometimes think of my own stubbornness as trying to bend reality to meet with my fantasy. I can’t bend reality to be what I want it to be.
I’ve been in a hot/cold relationship with someone sometimes emotionally available so I cling to those good times as potential-.I have shared custody of my son- new partner and I work well together without my son, but more recently I’ve been introducing my son into our lives as we’ve become more serious. As well as my new partner and I get on alone, I’m finding as soon as we try to combine the three of us, it’s a disaster-new partner loses patience, disappears for days afterwards to take space, disengages from me emotionally, puts limits on our time together, basically shuts down. It’s been going on for quite a few months and I’ve been trying to let him work it out as it’s a big change trying to incorporate my son for him and all of us. My stubborn side has been trying to bend reality based on my partner’s potential, not what behavior he has been demonstrating and then I cling to what could be and what we have when we’re alone (without my son). The result has been leading a very compartmentalized life. Granted, it’s a huge learning curve for someone without a kid, and my son has some real issues, hard for any parent to deal with, so I’ve been wanting to give new partner a break in a way. But new partner’s coping strategy is to disengage and become unavailable, both emotionally and physically. Reality is, if we can’t combine both of my worlds (with my son and without) I’m not sure it will work. So much of myself did not want to accept this!! The pain of clinging to the hope of what could be or even what I imagined ‘should be’ was such a horrible feeling. It’s taken me a long time to accept that the relationship has major limitations and probably can’t be all I want it to be, neither can this partner and just because we work well together in one sphere of our lives doesn’t mean we will together as partners in all. I either have to accept what he is capable of giving me and the relationship-and if this is enough for me right now-or having to look for what I need elsewhere. I find because it’s not black and white, it’s hard to give up on the whole thing. And sometimes facing the loss is a difficult part of the process. Just because someone hadn’t lived up to our expectations or has…
stef
Call me a hopeless idealist but if someone loves you, they will love your child too.
Aw Stef, what a rubbish situation 🙁 I do feel for you with that one.
These are my thoughts, in no particular order and bullet-pointed because my brain’s not up to fluency tonight, sorry:
a) It never really is black-and-white. If these blokes were horrible all the time then none of us would’ve bothered with them. I seem to remember, though, Nat saying something like “being shady is difficult, being authentic is easy” (possible misquote)- if you’re having to make excuses for him because he’s only nice when it suits him then that sounds like trouble ahead.
b) You’re the mother of your child and he’s your top priority. Anyone who’s with you has to accept this aspect of your life, and be prepared to share it with you at some stage. People can’t go around picking and choosing the parts of other people that suit them and then not-dealing with the rest, it’s not on.
c) I’m not sure that anyone can be emotionally available ‘sometimes’ when it comes to a relationship. You’re either in it 100% or you’re not.
d) Have you discussed this with him? What did he say? If not why not? It’s not unreasonable for a single mother to discuss her fella’s relationship with her child with him – in fact I’d imagine that it’s fairly essential, so if you feel like you can’t or he won’t… why?
e) I can understand someone finding it difficult initially to interact with their partner’s child, not enjoying it or having issues with it… fair enough, none of us is a saint. But I don’t like the sound of disengaging and beetling off every time he finds something hard, and then expecting you to re-admit him into your life without comment when he feels like coming back. That would be a BIG red flag for me.
I am terrified of having to deal with this situation myself (which is probably one reason why I haven’t even put the littlest toe into the dating pool since Son was born) and it does sound like you’ve realised most of this yourself, but honestly I don’t think you’re being unreasonable to expect anyone that you let in your life to deal with the fact that you’re you and you have a son openly, honestly and respectfully.
I have been guilty of this with my EUM. Anyway, I thought well if I put down my foot and say that a casual relationship is out of the question, that in fact it’s either all or nothing, I would get my way.
I did get my way…he asked me out…
If you brute force someone into committing, is it going to actually feel like mutual commitment in a mutually fulfilling healthy relationship?
…it didn’t feel right and I told him that he shouldn’t just say it if he didn’t actually mean it. I miss him so much. It’s been 6 months, I went through all the steps, worked through it. I am now slipping back.
I went on a wonderful date and felt so guilty, like I still belong to him. I want to contact him, but I know it’s in vain. It’ll be the same thing and I will be responsible for putting my hand in the fire. I’m hanging on to NC and re-reading your posts.
It’s been a crappy day. He knew he was EUM and I wanted more so he did the right thing and told me he couldn’t meet my expectations and left. I couldn’t take a hint. He was in a relationship 2 weeks later, I went for a tailspin. I wasn’t sure if I was the fallback girl or if the new girl was.
The new girl was the rebound. Anyway, he hasn’t contacted me but he’s sent subliminal indirect messages to me through our mutual friend. I guess this is the trigger. I know I don’t want to humiliate myself further but I’m having a really hard time accepting that he is no longer in my life.
Atrophy, I empathise. This evening, I’ve been following some of the steps from ‘Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl’ and have been writing out concerns and incidents that upset me, OUCH! Have had to relive all the times I got burned returning to my EUM and there was awful pain and feelings of loss. How I wish I didn’t trivialise those incidents and could recognise and validate them in the way I do now – I would have got past it all sooner and maybe it will help you to do this.
Please, please DO NOT go back into the fire. When you feel that loss and sadness, consider that the next time will be worse and feel more humiliating. ‘Subliminal indirect messages’ = crumbs, keeping you in check without commitment or accountability. Have no contact, take control. I’m so sorry you are going through this. As long as you stay NC, consider every day an improvement, it really is, even if you feel up and down.
Thank you for your reply Happy Beginning. I needed to read this.
I will try writing down and working out all those moments in my relationship with him. I don’t want to do this to myself again, and yes they are crumbs testing the waters to see if he still has control over my life.
It will never be a happy ending, I realize that, it’s a temporary fix and the cost is simply too high. I get caught up in the familiar ‘uncomfortable comfort zone’, I’ve done the back and forth dance with him for 6 1/2 years. If he didn’t care then, he’s not going to care now.
I have to see him leaving me as an opportunity to get away from this cycle that’s been destroying my self esteem and keeping me depressed.
Your post brought me back to reality. I must stop putting him on a pedastal and only thinking about the good times (so few) and keep out of denial. Sigh, one day at a time.
Atrophy, I could have written your comment – down to the 6 1/2 years. The pain does increase the subsequent times you put your hand in the fire. You are also so right that a temporary fix is so not worth it. My self respect and self esteem would be in better shape now if I had just stayed NC and continued working though the hurt and anger and working on myself and creating my own life without him rather than returning to the “uncomfortable comfort zone.”
Atrophy, FX, I think this one is life-changing for me, I think of that box-
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/get-out-of-stuck-getting-back-your-power-back-in-out-of-relationships/
Yes spot on on everything Natalie. I am waiting for the final eff-you thunderbolt. Your response to BR Grace was helpful to me as well. I fall stubbornly into my ruminating, staring, and twisting mode which is not helping me. Mostly, I just don’t know how to re-start my life. Things were so chaotic while I was involved with the MM and then life just got so quiet when it ended. Professionally, things tracked as well. I was in a professional worldwind and then that ended too. As I work through this, I see that there is a lot of lingering fear in getting my life going again. Like Grace, I kinda like the personal and professional quietness. But I absolutely do need a new purpose and I need to adjust my habits. I went from the roller coaster to the merry go round. I’ve got some thoughts brewing as to some new challenges. I just know I’d never go back to where I was. I’m too stubborn to go back to the darkness of being an OW. That’s where my stubbornness comes in handy. Nope. I’m not that woman. But I don’t think I trust myself yet to move on. That’s where my stubbornness is working against me. Oh dear, I listened to myself today, and I am my own worst critic, impatient, and frustrated. That came across clearly in my comment. I spent the day listening to my internal dialogue. Yikes. I’ve got to give my stubborn self a break. I am, apparently, human like everyone else. Childhood issues set me up to be perfect. Clearly NOT!
Sounds like you are dealing so wonderfully with your little Grace Jones Taurus nicely. Yup, there’s way about wearing down your last nerve. Trust me, I now understand as I’ve worn down my last nerve with myself. Now I get it. You know to go gently with your little Taurus. You are right, thank you for dealing with me gently too. There are better alternatives. Thank you for taking the time to remind me.
Thanks Natalie. This is my first post here and I need some advice. I have been far too stubborn with my EUM. I really had all the info I needed when he acted like I was the salt of the earth for 2 days straight when we met, then when I e-mailed him, didn’t respond for 6 months. Back then I had little self-esteem/few boundaries with anyone in my life. I felt so ashamed of having “shown my cards” by contacting him so enthusiastically that I was just relieved when he wrote back, thinking this would make our next-run in far less awkward. Yet, the next time I saw him, I got sucked in. Our interactions grow more personal with less pretense as time goes on; I get confused/invested; he vanishes; repeat. I realize after this post it is time to stop the insanity. Part of me feels I have zero justification to confront this man when we’ve spent maybe 15 days or so in each others company in the last few years (fear). I also don’t want to feed his ego any more than I already have. BUT now that I do have more boundaries with others, I still have trouble knowing when to speak and when to quietly fold. l wonder, will I be okay with myself and not get sucked into this madness next time I see him if I say nothing? AND, I know I’ve been keeping an anything goes mentality and zero boundaries all this time with him. I am not deluded enough to think he’s going to suddenly realize how great I am and want to be consistently available. But do I need to say something, for me? When is it an issue of self-esteem and integrity and when is it ego? How do you know when to confront someone or just walk away and sort things out alone?
ChasingRainbows
What do you hope to gain from speaking to him? I don’t think he’s interested in what you have to say and you’ll just end up even more hurt, frustrated and humiliated. He was nice to you for two days, then no contact for six months – a few more days since then – out of that you want to confront him?
Speaking is for people who want to listen. Fold.
Hi Grace. Thanks for your response. I guess the only point of contacting him would be to unburden myself. He is a giant walking excuse and I can already see the reply with all its fake apologies and excuses. I’m past the point of expecting him to change. I don’t have the power to say anything to change that and he’s been consistent in his UEM behavior right from the time he chose to ignore the e-mail. I guess there is a part of me that wants to assert myself because it would feel good. I also think you’re right that I might end up feeling more pathetic. Thing is, we are seeing each other at conferences in the same profession. He is a valuable colleague to work with and I enjoy spending time with him in that capacity. I wonder whether I will end up holding on to some kind of resentment over this that will mess with us being able to enjoy working together. I admit it seems a little bit late now to be trying to put boundaries in place. 15 days or so in several years and some sporadic contact in between, and knowing he will just offer excuses. Still, part of me wants to call him out (respectfully of course, not talking about flying off the handle or anything). It would just be something about how I’ve enjoyed spending time with him getting to know him over the years but, x y and z are things that I can’t really handle in my interactions with people. But you have me thinking…what does it do for me? I guess having my feelings acknowledged would be a start since he’s been hinting and blowing hot and cold and I’ve felt crazy and alone with these thoughts for so long. Hmmm. Well, I welcome everyone’s opinions.