A few months back, a friend fumed to me about how she’d fallen out with someone who she’d thought was a friend until they told her that they’d only been doing certain things because they’d expected payback in favours. She’d been under the impression that they were mates so not only did she feel insulted, but she suddenly realised that this person had ulterior motives the entire time and she cringed as she recalled conversations where she’d confided in her.
I’d forgotten about this run-in until I was watching The Office US, my bedtime watch on Netflix. In season 3, there’s an employee who transfers from another branch and he has a gameplan of brown-nosing / sucking up to the boss Michael so that he can squeeze out another employee. At first Michael is very flattered by all of his crap jokes being laughed at, him encouraging his bad behaviour, and even the weird ‘mirroring’ but over time he starts to become uneasy and even takes to avoiding him. After this guy accomplishes his mission, somebody else explains to Michael that this guy doesn’t actually like him and has been sucking up to him the entire time. He’s really offended – he does want people to suck up to him but not because they’re trying to get something from him; he wants them to suck up because they think he’s amazing.
And then I had an A-ha moment:
When we have a hidden agenda, we’re not being ourselves because we want to be what we think will get us a relationship ( or a job, popularity, an opportunity etc) or we’re passive by trying to dodge conflict, criticism and basically anything that we think is going to jeopardise our chances of getting the prize we have our eye on, we can come across as disingenuous.
Even if the perceived reward of our masterplan is to have a relationship and give someone our love, by pretending to be something that we’re not, by busting our own boundaries and letting them take the mick with ours, and by silencing ourselves and other such painful acts, we’re not only doing ourselves a disservice but in our quest for love and validation, we’re actually coming across as dishonest.
And finally it slotted into place about why I’d disliked a particular ex, yet had felt guilty and even ashamed for not liking him – he was very passive (although admittedly that would give way to another habit of passive aggression as well).
What bugged me at the time was that he was ridiculously agreeable. He just wouldn’t be honest in terms of ‘feedback’ or his opinion. Everything was what he thought I wanted to hear, he wanted to do whatever I wanted to do (even when he blatantly didn’t), and even when I was in the wrong or he just had a different opinion, he wouldn’t express it. I’d know that he wasn’t being honest with me and sometimes I could even pick up the simmering annoyance, but he’d just smile and be agreeable and I’d be “AAAAAAAAGGGGHHH!”
It made my blood boil. Then I would feel guilty and ashamed because how could I be thinking mean things about someone who was so “nice”? I think it was why we stayed together a little longer than we should have. In the end, I ended it for a number of reasons but not least because it would have been like pulling teeth to have some mutual honesty in the relationship.
Thinking about this subject caused me to realise that I don’t like being in a situation or around people where I end up feeling guilty or even ashamed. Oh hell, who does? It also clicked with me why I’ve felt quite stressed out in the past by certain family members – I end up feeling guilty for having a memory or boundaries, or for feeling the disconnect with the ‘niceness’ and what I know.
And then I also had a cringe moment because I realised that I’ve done my fair share of playing ‘nice’ and ‘understanding’ and ‘patient’ and ‘supportive’ and ‘forgiving’ and ‘gold standard doormat’.
It’s one thing if your true opinion or feelings on something is what you say it is and being The Most Accommodating Person In The World is the authentic you, but and there is a big but, if you have for instance, been in an unavailable relationship where you’ve been the passenger to a driver doing things on their terms, can you hand on heart say that you haven’t been holding back your true thoughts, feelings, and self?
Can you honestly say that you haven’t been trying to be someone else in an effort to ‘win’ the relationship or their affections or a changed version of them? Can you honestly say that you haven’t been doing all of this stuff to prevent losing the relationship?
Imagine that you’ve actually been through a pretty rough time with someone (some of you don’t even need to imagine…) and then you’re basically telling them that it wasn’t that bad, that you love them no matter what they do, and you’re brushing stuff under the carpet or even apologising for stuff that you don’t need to. If the other party has an ounce of decency they should feel remorse or even shame. But then, they can feel ‘trapped’ by your niceness. If they’re not able to or don’t have the desire and willingness to be very different and work with you to fix the situation, they may have very conflicting feelings about you triggered by recognising great things about you but also knowing you’re not being honest and then also feeling guilty and ashamed (if they have that function…). They may even want you to be angry and some will even try to provoke it and then because you’re actually simmering with resentment, you end up erupting one day and they finally get to feel relieved of their guilt etc.
Now I know it’s not easy to say what you think, need, and expect but it’s a lot harder not to.
Any relationship worth having is mutual and has the capacity for mutual respectful honesty. If you won’t be honest in your relationships because you think it will ‘keep’ them and will even encourage them to do what you want, they not only cannot trust you to give honest feedback, but they don’t know who you really are. Or…they don’t until you start trying to ‘claim back’ for what you think you’re ‘owed’.
Losing the hidden agenda will let you be you and that means that you’ll be an authentic you in an authentic relationship instead of a ‘pretend you’ in a relationship that bears no reflection on your needs, wants, expectations and values.
Your thoughts?
About the Author:
Natalie Lue is the founder and writer of Baggage Reclaim and author of the books Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl, The Dreamer and the Fantasy Relationship and more. Learn more about her here and you can also follow her on Facebook and Twitter - @baggagereclaim .
Natalie (NML) – who has written 1093 posts on Baggage Reclaim by Natalie Lue.
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Tis funny, I commented on another relationship site about how I thought being educated, self sufficient, running my own farm, being fit were good things about a person (and after all, who wants a helpless sponge rather than a real, functional, person?). I was slammed by a guy big time because I didn’t say whether I was “hot” and that I ought to forget my education etc and learn to devote myself to a man. Talk about being someone you are not! Apparently that’s what some guys want: dumb yourself down and bake cookies. Grizelda, there is a site: “womensavers”, however we women have to gain the spudey
Wretched phone! I meant we need to develop pur spidey senses and bail immediately when something does not feel right. Even though a guy may have a bad rep, you may be out of the social loop, or may be acting out of loneliness and a lack of choices and be initially blinded to their flaws, a couple of my failings that I deal with 24/7. That site does post photos and locations of some very dangerous guys (and batterers, con men) so it is useful.
You run your own farm?? Wow that´s my lifelong dream, you rock Miskwa and if I were a guy I´d date you asap.
This was quite an epiphany for me months ago– by altering and sacrificing yourself in order to be “owed” something by a partner is actually quite self*ish*, and not self*less*. Being honest about who you are is actually better for both parties and yields a genuine relationship, not a playact.
NML,
So what are you saying exactly? That example you gave of your ex who was “ridiculously” agreeable, are you saying that if he was not so agreeable then you would still be with him and in a healthy relationship?
mike-
reread the post. what she’s saying (nml, tell me if i get it wrong) is that she was dealing with someone who would not admit his true feelings, about anything, even for something as banal as “what would you like to have for dinner?”
ever deal with someone like that? its frustrating, infuriating, you always feel like you’re failing and guessing wrong, and like they’re holding (withholding is more like it) the “answer” over your head, and no forward motion can happen. they’re not being authentic, they’re at best so conflict-avoidant that no meaningful interaction can take place or at worst so manipulative that you just can’t stand them anymore.
so, if you are anything resembling an authentic person, eventually you just don’t want to be around them because they’re always, in some sense, lying to you, even though they don’t see it that way. so you can’t ever believe them when, for instance, they say, gee, i don’t know, “i love you”.
get it?
I understand the “I love you” part but I don’t see what is wrong with being a nice guy or agreeable if that’s how you truly feel. For instance, I am very easy going, I’m not a picky eater so often when dinner plans are called for unless I’m particularly not feeling like a type of food, I’m usually up for anything.
I mean if they are agreeable, they say I love you, they are down for whatever you want to do, I mean in the end if they treat you well, show respect and all the “landmarks” and “hallmarks” of a relationship, then why would you not want that? Because he’s too nice? Why would you think mean things about that person?
Mike, I’m a bit fascinated by this discussion because what this post definitely *isn’t* about is nice people being ‘bad’. I’m married to a nice guy but he has his own spine and mind and we are in a mutual relationship.
Your response tells me that you’ve taken this post personal as if I’ve highlighted something about you that you think is ‘nice’ that you think is being made to sound bad.
This post is about hidden agendas, not about nice people. Being nice because you have an ulterior motive even if it is as simple as never speaking up or making decisions so that the responsibility is on someone else is not ‘nice’ – it’s passivity.
Like the post said, if you genuinely have no opinion on something then knock yourself out. I don’t always have a preference for what I want to eat. Big deal! But I do participate in *most* discussions on something.
It concerns me that you won’t acknowledge the subject of the post. Really, someone being nice is an aside if there is an agenda, a darker side or even abuse. I hear from men and women who are stuck in abusive relationships because they keep reminding themselves that sometimes the person does nice things.
It feels like you’ve entirely missed the point. There weren’t all of the hallmarks and landmarks in these relationships and the problem was not about being ‘nice’. Nobody has ‘made’ you feel that nice guys aren’t liked – you have made that judgement about you without truly considering the subject or other people’s experiences. It’s like showing up to a discussion in a big hall and shouting “I’m nice!” and we’re all looking at you going “O……K…..” Get behind you.
This is what I’m saying:
“And finally it slotted into place about why I’d disliked a particular ex, yet had felt guilty and even ashamed for not liking him - he was very passive (although admittedly that would give way to another habit of passive aggression as well).
What bugged me at the time was that he was ridiculously agreeable. He just wouldn’t be honest in terms of ‘feedback’ or his opinion. Everything was what he thought I wanted to hear, he wanted to do whatever I wanted to do (even when he blatantly didn’t), and even when I was in the wrong or he just had a different opinion, he wouldn’t express it. I’d know that he wasn’t being honest with me and sometimes I could even pick up the simmering annoyance, but he’d just smile and be agreeable and I’d be “AAAAAAAAGGGGHHH!”
It made my blood boil. Then I would feel guilty and ashamed because how could I be thinking mean things about someone who was so “nice”? I think it was why we stayed together a little longer than we should have. In the end, I ended it for a number of reasons but not least because it would have been like pulling teeth to have some mutual honesty in the relationship.”
Also thanks to CC for the great expanded explanation.
Ok I guess I see what you are saying. I mean I understand worrying about whether he was honest about how he felt about you. Like did he really “love” you or was he just saying that cause that’s what you wanted to hear.
But what’s wrong with being nice and wanting to please you? Maybe he didn’t care what you two would do on a Friday night as long as he was spending it with you.
That’s how I feel sometimes. At least when I am initially dating a girl and I like her. It’s like, I’m down for whatever as long as we are spending time together.
Also I guess this post just made me feel like girls don’t want a nice guy.
Mike
My boyfriend is nice, gentle even. But yes it was a little bit annoying when he was too shy to ask me out. He plays soccer, is v competitive, likes public speaking, so I couldn’t see that he was intimidated. But I stuck with it because I liked him. It may help you to be a little more assertive, pick the restaurant, pick the time and date. It’s just a courtship ritual, don’t overthink it.
My boyfriend and I met at church. I thought he was very holy and vice versa. What’s really progressed our relationship is that we let the other see we aren’t perfect. We do get frustrated, we can be bitchy, we do fail. It’s fine.
No one is nice all the time, not me and, I hazard, not you either. Be yourself, if you think that is not acceptable, look at whether you need to change, grow or just let yourself be. This is for everyone, not just you.
mike-
in addition to what everyone else said, maybe think of it this way:
its not really about being nice or not nice. its about being real and about being able to express authentic feelings. yes, of course, if you are really care about someone, you are nice to them and that is great. and if you can express your authentic feelings and opinions in a gentle, considerate way, then you’re way ahead of most of us.
but feeling one needs to be a doormat that capitulates on EVERYthing is not good for a person and not good for the relationship. that smacks of desperation.
i don’t think that’s what you were saying (the desperation part). so, yes, please be gentle and considerate. but have your own mind and express it.
mike-
more…
so its absolutely clear, what we want is an authentic partner that we can admire, who loves us and, yes, wants to please us. so we can give and love and please back. so he/she can give to us and love us and please us back. so we can give/love/please. so he/she can….
see, its like a big happy circle of love. but ya gotta have the authenticity first. otherwise, its all just a load of crap.
Hi Mike,
My ex, who made me go AAARRRGHGH too, would ask me the same question.
It’s about balance. There is a difference between wanting to do kind things for someone to make them smile, and never having an opinion and only doing things when they are initiated by her.
There is a difference between knowing that whatever you choose to do together will be extra fun because it’s done together, and “not caring” what you do with someone to the point of always leaving it to her to come up with ideas of what to do or make the decisions.
I remember going on some ‘dates’ with a guy who had me sit on a couch with him and watch TV twice, and the third time (I thought, he can’t possibly be planning the same thing) he mixed it up by wanting couch, TV plus making out! The guy’s lack of imagination and initiative was stunning. I suggested doing other stuff, but he was like, I’m fine with this, I don’t care about doing fancy stuff, it’s about spending time together.
Don’t confuse “down for whatever” with “nice guy”. “Down for whatever” could mean flexible and open to new experiences, or it could mean: “I can’t be arsed to think up a plan / I’m too scared to suggest a plan / I don’t even realize having initiative is an attractive, mature trait.”
Hi Mike,
You do raise good points, and I think it helps to try to differentiate.
I think, for me, over-agreeableness (different from just being considerate) shows weak character. And weak character is not fanciable. It becomes like having a small child clinging onto your hand who’s just tagging along. “Where are you taking me next, Mummy?” Or being accompanied by your own shadow. Travelling with nothing but a shadow is a lonely journey.
OR it indicates someone who does not hold an opinion because he genuinely doesn’t care. “A movie tonight? Yeah whatever you want. Stop for a burger? Yeah whatever you want. Go to the pub? Yeah whatever you want.” doesn’t equal nice, it just equals someone who wants to put in the least effort possible in the going-around-doing-things time before finally getting to the great event: bedtime. “Ok so I did everything you wanted me to do today, which obviously means you’re happy, so now I deserve a reward” makes me see them as petulant children rather than men. They’re not nice, they’re a pain in the arse. And it’s boring.
Take the boredom, disappointment and frustration and multiply it by a million if the woman also has to foot the bill for the trips to the cinema, the burger bar, the pub, and anything else they do. At that point, he’s well and truly dumped as a useless specimen. Because it’s not the issue of the money that’s coming out of her purse but the whole ‘child tagging along’ thing. The moment a woman gets the ‘child’ vibe, it’s all over. Particularly in the area of the bedtime.
Being nice and considerate is active, not passive. And it’s thoughtful. Always thoughtful. “I know you like Gainsborough and Constable, so how would you like to go with me to the Turner retrospective? I can get tickets for Saturday.” “I really fancy a weekend at the lake. It would be great if you’d come with me. Would you like to, and when are you free?” “You know, I really want to have a night in tonight. Why don’t I get a bottle of wine and download two films — one your choice, one mine?” That’s grownup.
griz…
you’re a frigging GENIUS.
and….holy crap. that was the exEUM. which is ironic, since he was always spouting about maturity. the double-standard hypocrite – he meant maturity in others, not himself. and by maturity in others he meant me being acquiescent and letting him do and accepting whatever he wanted, which was preferably nothing.
and what birthday do you think he had when we were together? 61. SIXTY-ONE!
a huge overgrown child. who, by the way, was as utterly selfish and taking and manipulative at “bedtime” as he was everywhere else. a huge overgrown selfish child.
ok, this is a real horror moment. how did i not see this clearly? there certainly was a preponderance of evidence. how desperate must i have been?
VERY. jeeeeeeeezus. (sorry, grace)
“They’re at best so conflict-avoidant that no meaningful interaction can take place, and at worst, they’re so manipulative that you can’t stand being with them.”
I briefly dated a woman like this. She constantly agreed with me and praised me. I hated it because it felt very manipulative, and desperate. She seemed so desperate for a woman to love her that it was scary. There was so much emptiness and pain in her life…maybe she thought I could take all this emptiness and pain. I don’t think I could have made a dent in it. I felt like she was desperately trying to manipulate me to love her, rather than being herself and letting the relationship just develop naturally.
I felt that I didn’t really know her. And if she thought that I would only love her if she agreed with me all the time — she never knew me. I am not that fragile, egotistical or rigid that I can’t take someone having different opinions or ideas than I do. Really, what’s the point of having a partner who agrees with me about everything? Yes, you have to have compatible core values, but if someone agrees with me about everything — I might as well just stay home and talk to myself! If I agree with you about absolutely everything — what do I add to your life?
I keep thinking that since the person I have been sleeping with is agreeable that it must mean he is interested. He is incredibly affectionate when we are together but when I am not there, he does not take the time to initiate contact. He won’t communicate with me, just be pleasant and it’s frustrating because I want to have a grown-up conversation regarding where he stands and if the feelings are mutual. He is incredibly passive and I have been overly-sensitive since I don’t know what’s going on. I feel so heartbroken. I am afraid to pick-up the phone and call since he hasn’t bothered to get in touch. We are friends and I thought it could have progressed into more. I feel like I’m a nuisance. He’ll always answer the phone when I call and be ‘nice’ but that doesn’t help because it doesn’t clarify anything.
I have been ambivalent and have even told him that I didn’t know what I wanted (at one point stating I didn’t want a relationship). I’m not surprised if he doesn’t trust me. Last weekend I visited with my ex. I’m having a hard time communicating how I really feel about him to him since he is so closed off. I don’t know if he’s EUM because I’m being a bit EU. It’s not fair of me to ask him to put it all on the table first. I feel lost. Should I be brave and get in touch or do I already have my answer here…
atrophy-
honey….sorry. from what you said, i think you have your answer.
maybe you were EU and you’re not anymore. but it sounds like he still is.
suggestion: i’d, if you can possibly do this, i know it hurts, just drop communication. see what happens. do NOT contact him.
then, if he calls or comes around, say flat out “listen, i really care about you and i would like us to have a real relationship.” then stop talking. let it sit there. pause and wait for an answer. do not explain further. if the answer is anything OTHER than “yes, i care about you too and would like that too.” then he’s not opting into it. don’t settle for any kind of mealy-mouthed bullshit, which you are likely to get. its either an unequivocal, unmistakable yes, or its a no.
if its yes, yay! if its no, then at least you know you did everything you could. i know it hurts. but don’t settle for casual: the lost of self-respect when you know you’re settling hurts FAR more than accepting what isn’t and moving on to something real.
trust me on this – i know.
Atrophy
Do you know how you feel?
Saying you don’t want a relationship, when you really do, is a particular kind of “playing nice”, if you’re doing it because you think it’s what he wants to hear. I did that too. It’s signing away your rights.
If you have changed your mind, and have grown feelings for him, then tell him! Be brave. If he doesn’t feel the same way at least you will have your answer and can move on.
Atrophy
“at one point stating I didn’t want a relationship”.
Maybe he believed you?
The man asked me if I could see myself married (not to him in particular but I’m not dim enough to think it hadn’t crossed his mind). The thoughts crashed through my mind (I don’t know, I don’t mind, I never thought about it, I’ll say whatever a) doesn’t commit me b) won’t scare you away c) what you want to hear). I decided to tell the truth. I heard the word “yes” come out of my mouth. Simple. Confusion reigns when you won’t say what you believe or want.
Yes you risk rejection, the boyfriend risked rejection. But what’s the alternative?
Not knowing is worse. That is the number one thing I have learned this year. I am learning all the time. Don’t bury your head in the sand and carry on doing what you’ve always done. It didn’t work before and it’s not going to work now.
Brilliant, Grace. Well said. food for thought. The alternative really is rubbish. It’s time to speak up with what we actually do want and stop shirking it so as not to chase ‘him’ away or to remain on the fence. Women tend to imagine that what we want is something we are not supposed to want (if it’s not in line with what ‘he’ wants then it must be a bad thing – second rate) We feel guilty/needy/unreasonable for wanting, and worse for letting our wanting be known (crime of the century!). Yes, we must let it be known, yes we are allowed to want, yes our wants are valid., no it’s not a criminal offence!
Yes I think be aware that you’re giving him something. If that something is going to start coming with conditions (ie a real relationship), he may want that, or he may not. But what he’s probably going to try to do first… Plan A… is keep the status quo. That’s what EUMs do. Be prepared for that. Be prepared you might be hearing lip service being paid — just enough to keep your favours flowing. My best advice is remember that actions speak louder than words.
Also be prepared that if he is EU, he won’t change. Not for you, not for anybody. He can’t. None of ‘em can. They don’t change, they only change women.
I whole heartdly admit to this , ive been tooo nice for yrs to my ex hubby and to all the men that walked all over me. Half the time it was because i thought they would go away , they did anyway. Apart from my husband who as i left admitted to mentally bullying me . Plus when you do make a stand you then second guess yourself did i do right thing ? etc. i recently binned the mm i had been a doormat to for five years two weeks down line i admit i thought did i do right thing as he ob had a slapped ego this little doormat who had loved him for all this time had the gall to say no dont want your scraps . i thougght he wont be my friend now , as were meant to be best mates funny i dont hear from him now the one person he could really talk to …….. i wobbled big time like a girl on a skateboard but this week i hope to feel stronger than the last couple of weeks and i do , it is a shitty path to walk back to self esteemdom , one has to do by ones self .Plus i have a very toxic friend i did a little experiment the other day when she text her usual woe , i ignored and spoke about me , now i usually get loads of texts all bout her , i got four when i tried this as i refused to feed her , so i guess she went and woe is me someone eles .lol so i can see it and now things are changing . calmness and strength to you all x
Tired, I hear your pain. I too am two weeks into no contact, trying to survive this intense MM/EUM narcissist type. My niceness, my flexibility, my give-give-give, I thought, was appreciated. I was wrong. It was all for nothing and totally overlooked.
Part of what’s affecting you, which I know is affecting me too, is the overwhelming feeling that no one cares. The NC leaves us feeling abruptly adrift, abandoned, lonely, rejected, unseen and unheard — and obviously you’ve got additional friend problems where she is certainly behaving like she cares not for you and your troubles, as she’s shouting you down to compete for attention.
However something inside of me says “God god god I’m so glad that’s all over! It needs to be over. I needed to get away. It was never going to come to any good. It ran its course, it really did. I just need my feelings to go away, and the only way that’s going to happen is Time + NC.”
Once the feelings abate, I will be free.
In the meanwhile, I’m brushing off friends who want something from me. No more Ms Nice Lady. I’m only seeing friends who aren’t climbing all over me for support, sympathy, heavy gossip, any of that stuff that’s going on in their lives. I’m just not in a place to shoulder their burdens for them as I used to be. Screw ‘em.
Where I left things off with the exMM/EUM, I’m satisfied. It was a strong set of calm, measured, low-voiced, heartfelt statements that shook him to the core, ‘stunned’ and ‘amazed’ him (his words). He was totally lost for words, not like him at all. When he did manage to find some, he said he badly misjudged things and had to reassess everything that’s passed. On that note, I mustn’t and will not go back and spoil it with any more jibber-jabber clutter, no matter how badly I want him to acknowledge that I’m hurting. I created a literally stunning piece of verbal architecture and I have to let it stand unsullied. I mustn’t go back in and graffiti over it with neon spray paint, eh?
thank you and im sorry your going thro it to , big hugs and yes it sounds like you took the power back . stay strong im trying im into 4 days of no contact and today im finding it really hard how someome who said i was his best friend can shut the door just like i never exsisted , ive been crying on and off but ive stayed nc. when i saw him he was expecting the usually doormat but instead of being my quiet self i blurted it out , ” why am i upset over someone who doesntwant me , you basically told me your intersted in someone eles , i dont want to scrabble round for scraps , youve treated me appalling like shit actually “. he sat there in stunned silence and i said but your still a mate . he basically demoted me to botty call over years and had found someone new to be ow , i had found out and kicked off he pursed me ,and reeled me back in and because my gut said no hes seeing her as well i kept on at him till i bailed . i thought hed still try and be friends but no its like i dont want to be booty call and hes gone bye then bang shut door . i know ive done right thing but its like you said you feel abandoned , shit , rejected etc , i go councelling , and signed up to things but its beginning of week i find toughest , i work part time as i have two boys . ive asked councellor to swap my session from end of week to be begining as thats when im down most . some days i feel ill never get it out my system any words of help from you girls out there in the first few days of nc x
Hi Tired, not in the first days of NC, but been through it and just want to give you a heads up: you can do this- you are ALREADY doing it!
And yes it feels like utter shit, but you are taking care of yourself now and at some point, the hurt will start to lessen, I know it seems impossible now, but it WILL.
One thing that helped me was writing a list of all the things- specific things, like ‘left me to deal with bailiffs about to evict me from our flat’, and general things ‘never gave a shit about my feelings, however well I tried to explain, communicate them’- that he had done. I kept it somewhere handy and kept looking back on it as a reminder to what I was GAINING, not losing, by taking this route and walking away from him.
Also I made little cards and stuck them around the house (I know this could be tricky if you live in a shared house) reminding myself of the fact that I was acting in MY best interests, that I am FREE, and that I am taking care of number 1 now- and that’s me, not him.
Anyway just wanted to send you hugs and encouragement, to stay strong and to have faith.
Good advice – I also made the list – and kept adding to it as I remembered things. I am only 12 days NC and STRUGGLING. My list now has 35 things on it. Why would I want back someone who has 35 faults? It is good therapy and you may even make yourself laugh….”Hairy nostrils” was one of my lighter ones. You can do this. We can do it together.
victourious this is the time in the morning that hits me hard i wake up with day ahead, i feel so pissed that my so called best friend and suddenly bang gone , i feel like telling him but i wont as i know hes not a bestfriend. best friends dont treat people like that , lie to them, i feel such a fecking plum trying last week to be friends with someone who treated me so shit and theres me saying we still be mates, im the embarrasement he wants to squish under the carpet and forget . Note 1 this man is a lying,cheating selfish toe rag that desrves the biggest does of karma in his life , i hope he gets what he dishes out .
tired, grizelda, victorious-
i’m not sure you’re actually feeling this way, but i think i hear inklings of it, so if i may –
try to take the pressure off yourselves to feel better. the early days of NC, and looking back, i consider the first MONTH at least to be early days, are very, very hard. we’re talking grinding pain, and a roller coaster of pain, anguish, and anger. i know you think you know what “it takes time” means, but you don’t, i didn’t, but i found out. i really takes TIIIIIIME.
do not expect yourselves to feel better fast, you won’t, so do not apply any pressure – you feel how you feel and its ok. do not expect yourselves to heal at any particular rate, your rate is your rate and that’s ok too.
you’re not doing it wrong. it just sucks. hard. so be kind, very kind and understanding, to yourselves and breathe through it. i promise you it will not last forever. get through the days, but think in terms of weeks and months. and be proud of every second of NC you rack up.
‘You feel how you feel and it’s okay’ — yes it’s a relief to read this, CC.
I feel small improvements every day. Sometimes I have a ‘dip’ in the day that’s hard, but overall it IS moving in the right direction. I just can’t rush it, as you say. The ‘crazy panic’ stage combined with rapid thumping heartbeat and nausea lasted the first 4 days and nights, and I was glad to see that finish. It was agony. It then settled down into a continual up and down stress response, occasional mild panic, and continued disinterest in food. That lasted a week. For the last 6 days it’s been a milder stress response, not continuous, and broken up by periods of a couple hours at a time where I’m actually fully interested in doing other things. I’m also just starting to gain control of redirecting my thoughts away from him, which I know is a good sign. Over the last few days, I’ve just started being able to look at him slightly objectively without feeling anything particularly overwhelming. I think sadness is the main component now – sometimes more, sometimes less. But my thoughts are more grounded and logical. I’m getting tired and bored of the topic of him. Still not eating much – more, but not much – what a stupid and dangerous diet plan!
griz-
that’s great. but that’s really fast, i think. i don’t know how long you were going out, but to feel this much better in, what, 3ish weeks? wow.
so, fantastic! but for everybody else reading this post: like they say with diet plans (i actually love this diet plan, but make sure you take your vitamins), results not typical. your results may vary. and if they do, that’s fine, absolutely fine.
thankyou that girl ,i came home and went to bed as i was tired and came here and read some posts , made me feel better. i purchased nats no contact rule book and ill read that later to. last week i text him wed , thur and fri and i got cold distant (NOT BOTHERED ) replies , every time i feel im gonna do somthing i regret i say “you know the response youll get it will hurt more than not doing it” and i dont . im determined to grow a backbone ,sorting out my bookcase today i found a old diary from 1987 when i was 18 and i havent changed chasing round blokes who didnt want me no more and i guess that triggered it off , i felt ashamed twenty years later i hadnt changed , but im about to now finally , thankyou x
I am sure many of us can identify with what you have said Tired. Isn’t it great to get a new start even at our age? No more running around after unavailables for us. When I first met my ex EUM he told me that what he really liked about me was my “aloofness” Obviously I took this as a glaring sign that I should run around after him like he was The Last Man On Earth. Just can’t understand where it all went wrong??????? Anyway, we can do this with help fron Natalie and all the fantastic women here on BR. You are so much better than him. Just think of it as a dream/nightmare and move on.
Grizelda – thanks for articulating this so clearly. It is amazing how our experiences here on BR are so familiar – I have just, finally after a year of trying, broken contact with a man who was very bad for me. I said what I had to say, said it well, said it calmly and said it honestly. And now, even though the sadness and loneliness are sometimes overwhelming and I want to contact him desperately, my pride says No! I know that to say more would diminish the value of what I said and, consequently, diminish me as well. No spray paint for me either. Just pride and knowing that I can see this through and come out stronger! Thanks
soozie dont contact i to did what you did and then contacted him out of lonliness last week . i got replies but they cames indifferent gung ho . this is since fridaymy 5th day of nc and i wobbled big time this morn . i always do in the morn . i may call it moronmorning blues as i feel they need to get in touch with the moron. But i take pride as so should all you girls that at last we made a stand , im a roundabout way i did . i HAVE to remember this man is not my best friend he treated me far from such and took advantage of who i am and he knows it . strength to you , come on here if you need to get it off your chest , i do . i hope the others dont mind me waffling on but it helps to get it up and out
Hey ladies, just want to say keep it up, yes Tired you are right, this man is NOT your best friend and Victorius I think that 35-long list says it all! especially the nostrils, ugh!
When I left the ex-AC I stayed on my friend’s couch and was lucky to have her there to stop me every time I wanted to contact him.
But I remember also how getting advice/ support from women I had never even met but I knew had walked in exactly my shoes really hit home, knowing that they are people out there who have felt the same awful stuff we feel in those dark days/ mornings. So it’s really good to get it off your chest and have that feeling off connection with others- and NOT with him.
P.S. despite my still being at an early stage in the whole dating thing I can say that the year since I left him has been amazing… I am a different person now. We can get there, have faith.
Tired
Reading that brought tears to my eyes. I was always a morning person who woke happy. For the last year until quite recently my heart ached when I woke and it was always a struggle to force myself to get up. Just a feeling of dread. That has finally gone, for the most part, though today ive felt a little blue.
hello mymble , i got up and went into work , i fired of a text at my friend sais ignore it and she does as she knows it stops me texting him. felt better at work , laughed got on with my day till toxic friend got intouch bout me going back on fb and that i lied about it i let rip no i dont lie and i dont need your permission either she is controlling/victim type sent me down hill , but i got back up and laughed with my friends old one and new found one and felt better . riding home in car i felt bout sending him a text saying where is my friend that made me lol who said they couldnt imagine me gone from theirlives that he never ever wanted that ???? but no coz i see my toxic friend rant rave at her ac and it changes nothing and me texting that hed think spineless little doormat still there begging for my friendship , so no i soldier on , and little glimmers of happiness bubble up and glimmers of hope and all the new healthy friends and good times that await. And i want to say to you lovely girls who support each other out there get out do somthing diff you never would do and make friends and do stuff and it helps , so far ive sung kakroke and im shy lol, enrolled in english gcse lol i need it (cant you tell) guitar course and driven all way to devon and back 600 mile trip , all little self confidence boosters after him over the years and exhubby making me feel poo . there is nowt anyone can do to embarrase me did that myself , storming down pub to see ow but i never went in thank god .lol and in a couple of months a yr ill laugh bout the shell of who i was and smile in mirror at the girl reborn and its never to late . Twenty , fourty or sixty we are great !
Thank you for your advice ladies. It is good to hear feedback. I do know that I have been sending all kinds of mixed signals. I spoke to two friends about it last night and they said that ‘if a man is interested, trust me you’ll know’.
I feel like I should leave it alone. I had told him on 4 occasions that I liked him without a response from him. I’m already hurt and maybe it’s better to lead/leave with my pride than to ask him to write out a rejection letter spelling it out. I guess I can take a hint.
I don’t want to speculate things. I am taking your advice to heart and the next time I won’t freak out and say I don’t want a relationship because I’m scared.
Natalie, dear Natalie… I am so thankful you came into my life. In a month I have learned more about myself, EU men, and my dysfunctional “relationship” from you and your readers than I had been able to figure out in 23 YEARS of an off-and-on situation. I am sorry you had the rotten background you did, but I am sure they were defining teaching experiences (or divine teaching experiences)in your life so you could help the rest of us. We’re truly blessed by you sharing your wisdom.
I won’t go into the details of my situation except to say it mirrors so many others I’ve read, and I too thought I was the problem or the one going crazy. I always wanted to know WHY he acted like he did. Now that I know why, it’s all very clear and I really don’t CARE why. How much time and energy I gave just trying to figure him out! It is so true that I needed to spend that time thinking about *myself* and not him.
He has started blowing warm again now that I’ve cut contact for the last time without warning. It feels so powerful and right to be the one in control for a change… and he has no idea why. Except he does. I was ashamed I had given away my self respect and dignity to him, but now it’s coming back. BTW, I have never had any problem with self confidence and being respected until HIM.
Thanks to all the ladies who have written. Your posts have helped me a lot. I have, after over TWO DECADES, finally realized what’s going on and won’t stand for it any longer. To you younger women who have been in a relationship for a couple of months before finding out your guy was an EUM, you have no idea how fortunate you are that it didn’t drag on for years, like it does with some of us.
This clip… is amazing. It’s awesome once you “get it” and can see what they are doing.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QZuOKUrwoys
Sorry to be so long winded, but I wanted to say “Bless your heart” (old saying in the Southern U.S.) to Natalie for the enlightenment she’s given us, and thanks to all the other women who have shared their stories and helped us all heal.
Onward and upward!
Carol
Ugh, that’s nasty.
Do men really, consciously on purpose do this stuff?
Carol – Thanks for sharing the link. I think there are more and more TV and youtube parodies of these systems out there, helping women see what a lot of guys have been doing for a long time. The show was trying to make a joke out of it, but the comments under the video suggest that a lot of men watching just saw how funny it was to think of scaring the crap out of a woman or to seduce her.
Real people are out there trying to practice this stuff, or in fact practicing it (my exAC may never have heard about the DENNIS system or any other, but he had the attitude and approach down cold). I remember just a month or two after splitting with the exAC, going to a panel talk on human trafficking – there is a handbook for would-be pimps on exactly which vulnerable girls to choose, how to seem like a protector, then pull back sharply, fostering confusion and dependence. The speaker said that people wonder why women being prostituted would ever stay, why don’t they run? The psychological hold on them is overwhelming, there is a system to creating that hold, and some men prefer a hold over a woman to a healthy relationship. I recognized the man I had been dating and it made my blood run cold.
Welcome to BR. Two decades is a long time. You sound empowered now!
Yes I was nice and passive and a doormat and got royally screwed over nothing less than I deserve.
Tulipia – You’re awfully hard on yourself. None of us “deserve” to be rotally screwed or, as Nat says, treated without love, care, trust, and respect, regardless of who we are or how we act, even ACs or women who let themselves be doormats. Loving yourself unconditionally means cutting yourself some slack and realizing once you knew better, you acted better.
Hi Carol
Thank you for the reminder about not being so hard on myself. I wrote the above in anger because I had a gut feeling things were off the boil and I just pssively went on with things and everything came out last night, I think I said I deserved it because I have read Baggage Reclaim for a long time now and should have acted differently. I am grateful to know that I will be okay and things won’t be like 2010 and 2011 where I thought I’d never get out of the black hole.
Dammit. I have an agenda.
While I was on my knees few years back(financially, emotionally etc – single parent blah blah), a ‘friend’ who was in a position to help, at no expense to them, couldn’t quite decide if I was worthy of support.
Cried silently to myself for a week. So, while I wish I didn’t care so much. I pretend I am on side when the reality is I can’t wait for the business to fail so I can laugh out loud to myself for 2 weeks!
I have another friend who is so patronising and annoying I am not sure how to get rid of her. You see, well, you may have noticed my low self esteem which thankfully has surfaced and I’m able to process and re-build confidence. Yet, all these people from my past have supported my low self esteem, like it almost works well for them that I passively accept the shit they throw my way because, until now, I took it sadly.
Thankfully, I’m at the ‘i am raging about this’ stage of development and I think I am about to unleash the dragon but not sure how its going to come out, thinking Bruce Lee.
Now I’ve confessed my agenda it doesn’t sound such a good idea after all. Think I’ll go buy a dress instead.
NINja – Jeet Kune Do am all for it too lol. During my recovery I met an older wiser lady at work. Every time someone p*****d her off and they were sat down in the staffroom she would bend over and shove her backside in their face. Not that I’m condoning it, but I think that was her way of unleashing her dragon! #laughter is the best medicine
NATALIE, YOU ARE JUST SO AWESOME !!! I JUST LOVE THIS 1 ” COMPRAMISING YOURSELF & HAPPINESS JUST TO FIT INTO SOMEONE ELSES WORLD” IS 1 OF THE BIGGEST PROBLEMS IN THE WORLD OF DATING TODAY !!! ITS WORTH GETTING INTO A RELATIONSHIP IF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BE YOURSELF !!! I DO BELIEVE THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED BETWEEN ME & MY NOW EX-HUSBAND THAT I JUST MET LAST NOV & MARRIED THIS PAST APRIL. THE RELATIONSHIP QUICKLY FIZZLED OUT AS FAST AS IT BEGAN, A WEEK AFTER WE WERE MARRIED IT BEGAN TO DETERIORATE AND FAIL. I TRIED HARD TO SAVE IT OLNY TO BECOME FRUSTRATED & OFTEN FOUND MYSELF YELLING JUST TO GET A POINT ACROSS TO HIM, I WAS TIRED OF TRYING TO MAKE IT WORK ALONE, I ASKED MY HUSBAND AT THE TIME WHAT HE WANTED TO DO WITH THE MARRIAGE & REPLYED HE WANTED TO SAVE IT . FOR SOMEONE WANTING TO SAVE IT SURE WAS AWFUL DISTANT FROM ME & STAYED OUT 3 NIGHTS IN A ROW WITH NO CONTACT WHAT SO EVER !!! I ENDED UP THROWING ALL HIS POSSESIONS IN THE GARBAGE & CHAGEING THE LOCKS. HE TRIED TO BRING THE STUFF BACK IN I REFUSED TO LET HIM BACK IN TO DO SO. I GUESS I COULD SAY ITS MY FAULT !!! ME BEING LONELY AT THE TIME I 1ST MET MY EX-HUSBAND HE SAW THAT IN ME & DECIDED TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THAT IN ME & KEPT PUSHING HIMSELF ON ME TO ACCEPT HIM IN MY LIFE WHICH WAS SCARY IN THE BEGINNING !!! I KNEW FROM THE START HE HAD A CRACK HABBIT ADDICTION & FEAR THE WORSE WOULD HAPPEN & IT DID !!! I FELL FOR HIS AMAZING MAGNITUDE CHARM, IT WAS SO OVER POWERING & I WAS JUST SUCKED IN AFTER A WHILE MONTHS LATER, I GUESS THE CHARM OVER POWERED THE CRACK HABBIT HE HAD, I JUST ENDED UP FALLING AT HIS MERCY BECAUSE HE MADE ME FELT LIKE A QUEEN !!! HE ASKED ME TO MARRY HIM 3 TIMES, I SAID YES I WOULD, NOW I WAS THINKING THIS GUY IS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE !!! & YES HE WAS !!! HE WAS JUST BEING NICE TO ME ALL BECAUSE HE JUST WANTED A PLACE TO LAY HIS HEAD, IT LATER CAUSED CONFLICT BETWEEN US BECAUSE HE WAS COMPRAMISING HIS TRUE SELF & FEELINGS FOR SOMETHING THAT WAS NOT REAL !!! ALL THAT LIEING JUST FOR A PLACE TO LAY HIS HEAD A MISTAKE !! LATER HE RAN TO ALL HIS FRIENDS SO THEY WOULD FEEL SORRY FOR HIM WITH PITY, THEY ENDED UP TELLING HIM HE WAS WRONG. I ENDED UP ENDING THE RELATIONSHIP IN DIVORCE TO REGAIN MY SELF CONFIDENCE IN ME !!! I LEARNT MY LESSON !!!
CC, you said it in a nutshell. It takes TIIIIIME!
When you’ve cared so deeply for someone and all they did was mess over you it hurts so deeply you don’t know how you can ever move on and live your life differently without them. The comments you all have made have caused me to suddenly realize why I spent all those months online. Much of it was an attempt to ameliorate the pain caused by the exMM. It all makes sense now. I wanted the attention, the compliments on my looks and intelligence, all the superficial trappings in order to feel better about myself. I had totally relinquished the self-esteem I had because I had wanted his love so desperately, and all the time knowing this involvement was ill-fated and dangerous. So having the attention and positive reinforcement of all those guys, even though I was not meeting them was GREAT. I became addicted to online dating. BUT I was also avoiding interaction in the flesh by consistently choosing guys hundreds of miles away. I did not want a relationship, I was afraid to trust, didn’t want to experience any deep feelings because I could not take the chance of getting hurt and/or losing. I adored my father and was a daddy’s girl. He was an alcoholic but a very loving man. He died prematurely when I was 23-deep pain and loss. Shortly after his death, I had to leave an abusive first husband with our 18 month old daughter in tow-deep pain and loss. Then years later having been a single mom-not easy, for 16 years, I met my second husband who was all I could have ever asked for and more. Then he died prematurely partly due to ignoring his health in order to be the “be all and end all” for me-devastating loss, excruciating pain (even with being a very competent RN I couldn’t save him). So fast forward 6 yrs, and here comes Mr. MM. Many of you know about that. I really thought I was in love with the EUM/AC-but had to kick him to the curb after much heartache. Finally, now I’ve cut to the chase and stopped engaging in the non-productive activity of online. Just the other day a guy emailed me (I’m sure it was only because he saw I was deleted from the website and was curious) on the pretense of saying “Hi” after 3 months of my starting NC because he had a pregnant girlfriend and has since become a first time dad. I casually blew him off. He accused me of being “abrasive”, but I was not. That was his defense because I just wasn’t interested in talking. Had this been a few months ago, I might have agreed to an intimate moment. But, even though my need (sexual) is still there and flaming, I rebuffed him. It seems as though I’ve been through crap, although certainly none of the stuff a lot of you all have had to put up with. But I think sticking to NC was the hardest, because the other situations (death, evil husband) were situations that I had little control over. Freeing myself from the MM was within my control and I handled it really well, and the same for quitting online dating. I’ve proven to myself that I have developed a very strong sense of self-preservation and desire to be and do what’s best for me, mentally, emotionally, spiritually and physically. I did not intend to give my autobiography here, but CC, you uncovered , with your advice to Tired, Grizelda, and Victorious that TIME plays a huge part in healing wounds. Thank you for also helping me see to things I did not understand nor had they occurred to be before. I wish success to all BR women in conquering our demons and remembering that TIME IS ON OUR SIDE and long as we are still here on earth.
And, how could I neglect to mention that my dear, strong,inspirational Mom passed away in May after a long illness (Alzheimer’s). That was so huge that apparently my mind blocked out the memory but my emotions and the ensuing behavior did not.
NOW I understand!!! We have some kind of argument, and hey presto! A day or 2 later he’s ringing me when he’s on his way to a lads weekend away (this weekend), or to see his family (last weekend – when we were both meant to be going but this is another issue as I still haven’t actually met his family yet), or he’s tidying his house and won’t answer the phone/return my calls (also last weekend), or some other jolly (last month). He’d wanted to go by himself all along but couldn’t be honest and tell me! For 2 years I’ve been making excuses and apologies for this behaviour. He’d complained in the past that I didn’t consult him as to what day to see my family so he could come too. This time I consult him and he says just pick any day and if I can come I will. So he then arranges something else on that day so he “can’t” come. So much avoidance, and he says I’m the reason our relationship isn’t “progressing” -_-