Over the years of writing BR, I’ve emphasised how relationships are 100:100. We have to own our own and let others own theirs. We have to show up and be our true selves rather than show up on the basis that we are half of a person and that we’ll do a bit and they’ll do the rest. With the whole 50:50 premise, we’re leaving a lot out. Where did the other 50% of us go? It’s difficult to dispute when we’re putting our whole selves in and are willing to evolve but once we start making others responsible for part of what we should be doing, the waters get murky.
There’s a very specific reason though why going into relationships with a 100:100 outlook is vital:
When we have a 50:50 mentality and we’re of the people pleasing, trying to fill voids inclination, we tend to overcompensate for our partners because aside from being excessively emotionally reliant on them for our self-esteem and very quickly struggling to discern where we end and they begin, we on some level don’t feel worthy and take ownership of other people’s feelings and behaviour. This means that we feel that we are more responsible for the relationship than they are.
We’re thinking in 50:50 terms and then devaluing ourselves (or feeling devalued) and then feeling that we are 70:30, 80:20, or even 90:20 responsible for the relationship.
We know that we have things twisted when we deny, rationalise and minimise concerns as well as our own needs, expectations, wishes, feelings and opinions. We keep telling ourselves that the reason why a person is unable to show up emotionally and in other ways, is because they’re having a “tough time” or are “busy”, or that we’re “needy”, “too sensitive”, or that it must be our “problems”. We pull back, tread carefully, up the efforts, shrink a little (or a lot), force a smile, keep trying to show how much we love and care only to feel as if that’s making it worse, and sometimes put up with some pretty unpleasant if not downright abusive carry-on.
Part of us is almost thinking, Jeez – all they have to do is the exam equivalent of showing up and signing their name! I’ll take care of the rest! Or, we’re thinking along the lines of, If it were me and I had somebody right here ready to love and care about me (even though I wasn’t pulling my weight), I’d be so grateful and loving. I wouldn’t want to leave.
Of course, the problem is that when they do leave or there are attempts to tackle the issues, because we covered their ‘share’ of the relationship and felt excessively responsible, we also feel excessively to blame.
We blame ourselves for it going wrong, for not being “enough”, and keep trying to retrace our steps to figure out where we botched things, wondering what happened to the “amazing” person that they were in be beginning… when we didn’t really know them and they hadn’t unfolded.
At what point did we start covering for them?
For many Blame Absorbers, it can be right at the beginning, often because they’re waiting for the other shoe to drop. There’s this underlying concern that this person may figure out that they’ve made a mistake so they buffer this by making some overpayments into the pleasing investment account (like when we make overpayments on our mortgages). This overcompensating can also happen because on some level below the awareness line, they sense that this person chimes with their pattern…so again, they get cracking with building them up. It can come down to an uneasiness that comes with the familiarity of certain feeling and thought responses to what is happening, or the familiarity of the person’s behaviour. It may feel like ‘home’…
It might start at what appears to the early signs of problems. Things may appear hunkydory and then, boom! They come back one day and it’s as if they’ve turned into Hollowman or Hollowwoman. The lights are on but nobody’s home. Or they suddenly respond lukewarm or coldly where they appeared to previously reciprocate and enjoy something. Maybe it’s after the first conflict or after feeling wounded by criticism. They’re asked if something is bothering them or whether they’re “OK” and they claim that everything’s “fine” while acting the opposite.
If you’ve been overcompensating for your partners, you will know because you’re either in it and taking ownership of their feelings and behaviour, or you’re out of it and doing the same thing and feeling wounded by your “failure”.
You’ll be damn near exhausted from trying to figure out the magic words and deeds to keep this person happy so that you can feel happy. You might not know your up from your down because you’ve been ignoring your instincts and listening to them deny, minimise or rationalise the very real concerns. You will feel as if you are failing or have failed because the relationship is all about your effort and on some level you know that you’re giving you away and all for what? To be left feeling inadequate and that nothing was ever good enough?
Well it’s time to ask, What about me?
It’s time to get honest and open up your awareness about where you have held you back and taken over their responsibilities. It’s time to be honest about where you have been hurting and where you’ve had to practically cattle prod partners into responding and showing up. You’ve got to be honest about where you forgot you while trying to make another person the centre of the universe. They’re just not that special. Why are you bowing down and acting as if a miracle has taken place in being given the time of day and now it’s like you have to prove that they didn’t make a mistake in being that person they were in the beginning? Why does everything rest on you?
We can empathise with people and recognise where they have their own stuff to deal with but you know what? If someone’s stuff is going to prevent them from chipping in with love, care, trust, and respect and they’re going to enjoy the fruits of you being an almost skivvy in the relationship, it’s time for them to jog on, because your efforts will not be respected and appreciated for it. If anything, they will feel some level of guilt and rather than step up, they’ll act out, keep distancing themselves from you while telling you what they think you want to hear or pulling other passive aggressive acts because the nicer you are the worse they feel; or they’ll make an exit where they can go back to their comfort zone or press the reset button, all while likely taking no responsibility.
Do not accept less than the very basics of what you deserve by overcompensating and then feeling that you have to wait for some sort of payback. Never treat you like you don’t matter in a messy effort to prove to someone else how much they matter. You know where you stand when you show up as a person who can own their own and has a good sense of self, because you can quickly tell where you’re being left hanging by somebody who is of a very different inclination. Instead of blaming you, you recognise that you both want different things and that no relationship of any decency is going to go anywhere good when it lacks consistency, commitment, balance, progression and intimacy that only materialises when two people show up to a relationship.
Forgive you for where you let them off the hook from showing up and where you forgot your own responsibilities. Learn from this experience and what you’ve experienced will be transformed from loss to the gain that it is. These experiences are there to teach us where we need to step up and show up for ourselves in order to change the nature of our journey.
Your thoughts?
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Great post, Natalie.
“If someone’s stuff is going to prevent them from chipping in with love, care, trust, and respect and they’re going to enjoy the fruits of you being an almost skivvy in the relationship, it’s time for them to jog on, because your efforts will not be respected and appreciated for it.” – This is so common it isn’t funny.
The bind people put themselves into though is the other thing you mentioned – the ability to forgive themselves for allowing the relationship to get to this place in the first place.
They use this as a reason to not change anything. They tell themselves that because they allowed this to happen, they have no right to ask for it to change. This moment here. This is the moment where people give their power away.
We all mess up in relationships. If messing up means we don’t have a right to a balanced relationship, then no-one deserves a balanced relationship.
As you said, it needs to be 100-100. And just because a mistake is made is not justification for you to deserve any less.
“The bind people put themselves into though is the other thing you mentioned – the ability to forgive themselves for allowing the relationship to get to this place in the first place.
They use this as a reason to not change anything. They tell themselves that because they allowed this to happen, they have no right to ask for it to change. This moment here. This is the moment where people give their power away.”
Yes, Keith! Also, I think that many people get in that situation in the first place because they don’t know their worth and/or are afraid if they do use their power in that situation, the person will leave. They might leave, or throw a hissy fit, but you’ll survive.
If they leave or get abusive because you start asserting your self in the relationship, then good riddance. They were never going to be there for you anyway.
Great post! Thanks so much for it!!
This blog has spoken to me so many times in the last few months. Its encouraging to know I’m not alone. Your posts always seem to hit at the exact moments needed. Thank you so much.
Thanks for another great post. I really needed to read this today. I am overwhelmingly sad and I read this through the tears. I am asking myself the same questions in an endless loop: Why her and not me? Why did I settle for crumbs? Why does this all STILL hurt so much? How could I embarrass myself by hanging around waiting for a “relationship” that didn’t really exist for so long? Why am I holding onto this? Will this sadness ever go away? Will I ever stop the rumination madness? It goes on and on. I’ve read and re-read so many BR posts but today it doesn’t feel like anything has sunk in. (I hope there is no limit to saving “favorites” as have so many favorites bookmarked!) I will chalk it up to a bad day and hope that tomorrow is better.
Another great post…I accepted much less than the very basics and I did deserve more.
Figuringitout
I still hurts because you WONT LET GO. You’re still trying to find answers as to why … And there is no answer. Period.
You could have a list of 100 or more reasons so just pick one and be done with the endless ruminations.
There will NEVER be a definitive answer or reason.
Once you understand that there is NOTHING for you to figure out it will stop hurting and you can move on.
He’s just who he is and he didn’t want you in his life. That’s all you need to know.
Why are you bothering with someone who doesn’t value you or love you.
So true, Pauline. I’d add one more thing…it’s not your fault, you didn’t do anything wrong to deserve it. Veracity
I agree with Pauline on this one figuringitout you need to ask the question – what can I do for myself right now that will make me feel better for real?
Bother with people that DO love and care for you genuinely not the ones that clearly don’t – and if no one does start with yourself. Love and sunshine to you.
I think this is why I am deathly afraid of people who act like they have things to hide. Moment that happens, I get very cautious and try not to get too invested. When people have something to hide, they’re not 100% into the relationship. I try not to blame myself for it (I used to do that a lot) and what’s more, when I do realize what people are hiding it just confirms that I was right to stay away. No one needs that.
On another note I overcompensated for a guy I was into because I was telling myself if I acted casual I wouldn’t get hurt (wrong, in talking to him I was already invested). I wanted to avoid the truth that he was still figuring himself out. One day I just woke up and realized that, well, truth was nothing was actually going on. My hopeful side wants to look back on it but I’m moving forward so I can find a guy who knows what he wants and is 100% into the possibility of a relationship
🙂 what you write is so true. I had a revelation today when my friend reformulated the story that haunts me since more than a year. That made me so happy, because I had obsessed about it probably as much as possible. Went through every single spiral you describe in your posts, the ones that end with yadayada.
I think the medicine to a burning heart is a mixture of time, becoming aware, really opening eyes to yourself and the world, and friends. For me, the needle was removed today when my friend told me my story in a way that did not deflate me, where the rejection and my problems with myself are too seperated things.
I really see now how self value and compassion can heal.
I am using a mantra now for jealousy and self devalueing rants. It goes: my heart and humor is bigger than that. It sometimes helps 🙂 good luck to everyoNe. I wish and hope we all transform the piles of overanalyzing and feeling all this negative energy into something wonderfully strong and kind. i really do believe that these kind of hurts and the dealing with it have the power to change a person for the better.
I have one question, i stumbled across the blog of marc evan katz. He has a different take on the same topic, and I’d be curious what you think of his approach, Natalie.
Thanks so much for your work, it has taught me a lot about dynamics, especially about myself.
catherina,
“i really do believe that these kind of hurts and the dealing with it have the power to change a person for the better.”
Absolutely. We should be grateful for every “misfortune” as every one of them is our opportunity to grow and become happier.
I also stumbled upon Mr Katz and at first thought he had some good advice. There does seem to be some good ideas in some of what he says. Then I read some more stuff. Then I realised he is what the Americans call a ‘douchebag’. I stopped reading his stuff. Stick with Natalie. She knows her sh*t.
I had similar thoughts, Betty.
PS one article by him that shows his take on things is called ‘men look for sex and find love, women look for love and find sex’
Keith, that section of the post you pointed out was a major take-away point for me. I like the way you outlined it:
“The bind people put themselves into though is the other thing you [Natalie] mentioned – the ability to forgive themselves for allowing the relationship to get to this place in the first place.
They use this as a reason to not change anything. They tell themselves that because they allowed this to happen, they have no right to ask for it to change. This moment here. This is the moment where people give their power away. “
Like Robin said too – self compassion is truly the key to healing.
It’s more than just saying the words “I forgive myself”. Self-forgiveness is not easy. We won’t permit ourselves to make a mistake, acknowledge it, and THEN MOVE ON to self-caring behavior. I don’t know, are we staying stuck because we are trying to correct the mistake so it no longer appears as a mistake on our permanent record or something? Who is doing the judging here? Is it hard to accept the mistake because we are making mistakes about people? We have no forgiveness for ourselves, and I count myself in that. I am working on that. Forgiving myself and taking my power back.
Figuring it out, it sounds like you are still in the “tallying up his tab” mode. You are thinking ‘I gave you ALL this and you gave very little back, and you OWE me buddy! ‘ First of all, he does not owe you. But the real issue is the WHYS. Why did you continue to give when he gave very little in return; why do you feel that he has the ‘magic’ that will somehow show you (and the world, maybe?) that you are special; why don’t you see yourself as already special, too special to worry yourself over trying to wring interest out of someone who is not interested. Maybe if you think of it in terms of money. He asks for change for $20, and you give him $100 worth of change and smile. And you do it repeatedly, until you find he’s taking some other woman out with all that extra change. Thing is, he would’ve walked away with just $20 in change if you had just given him $20 in change. But you were trying to win him by giving him something he never asked for. And you need to stop it and forgive yourself for damaging your piggybank for no reason.
I love the money analogy!
Elgie, that $20 metaphor is brilliant! You helped me see the situation with (a new) clarity.
@figuringitout: I tend to do the same thing, even 10 months later. We feel how we feel. STILL. Maybe when we’re overinvested in the relationship, we experience an excessive of pain in the aftermath – especially when we BELIEVED it was mutual. Instead, we experienced counterfeit intimacy.
I have been like that and it has been 10 months since we split up but you have to be strong for you 🙂
I agree, Say Something – “We feel how we feel. STILL.” I absolutely overinvested in the relationship (both the friendship AND the “non-dating” dating relationship.) But it’s exhausting feeling shitty most of the time. I realize that I’ve been beating myself up on and off for years over one thing or another. And I realize that I need to stop. Just seems that once I start thinking about one thing, I end up spiraling downward and ruminating about EVERYTHING. So yesterday/last night was a bit of a cumulative effect spiral. I’ve been reading gobs of BR post and a couple of books on emotional healing as well as trying some mindfulness techniques but yesterday just got the best of me. There is a certain sadness that comes from realizing that I will never talk to him again nor will I get any answers. (And I don’t even think I want the answers at this point, as they won’t change anything and won’t make me feel any better.)
I feel like I am going crazy because I KNOW it’s over and I KNOW the ruminating is making me feel worse, but somehow it’s familiar. Like I am so used to feeling bad that it has become my set point. And that’s no way to live. I signed up for the Self-Esteem course as obviously these problems didn’t crop up overnight because of one jerk. Hopefully that will help.
Here’s hoping to a better day!
Yes, figuringitout –
“…it’s exhausting feeling shitty most of the time” reveals how much we are STILL overinvested and overcompensating with basically a ghost who cashed out long ago. For months I have struggled with “who WAS this guy?” because the guy I THOUGHT he was could NEVER have disappeared like he did. Wasn’t everything working? Didn’t we always have the best time together? There was never a disagreement or a fight. He NEVER expressed disinterest or unhappiness. I thought we had a solid, strong bond. Apparently he was not participating in the same relationship, even though the last weekend I ever saw him included future (faking) plans that HE talked about. And then a seemingly different person took over… Hot, cold, spinning, spiraling, “nice” followed by dismissive in a matter of minutes. Never have I experienced anyone like him. Someone who is mutually invested would seemingly have just as much at stake (true caring, understanding, connection) and wouldn’t be able to delete me from his life and never see me ever again. UNLESS his investment was just in having a warm body to provide some temporary happiness and distraction. I beloved in him 100% and in return I experienced breakage I didn’t even know was possible. I can’t say I blindly trusted, because he consistently showed good qualities for months and finally “won me over”. And then I think I just handed over my heart and never got it back. Overinvested. So now I’m trying to focus on conscious awareness.
http://blogs.psychcentral.com/relationships/2012/01/the-healing-power-of-conscious-acceptance-–-what-it-is-the-power-of-‘how’-you-respond-1-of-2/
Figuringitout, everything you wrote and your pain speaks to me. I’m 1.5+ year after the dissolution of the relationshit. Yet, the pain of the first 10-12 months still comes back in waves. Our situation was different in a way that I could talk to an exEUM and demand answers (which I did) but it was as effective as talking to a wall or a pillow. He just completely shut down or cried with no words (I felt disgusted and still am when I think of it. cheap manipulation/feeling sorry for himself) etc etc. I can say that in my case I had my final straw when I a) sucked it up and saw for myself (in BR’s terminology). I went back for more. And got more of the same bs non-commital shallow talk b) got finally angry. The second point was probably the most important because I felt totally stuck emotionally until I got ANGRY at HIM.
Because of my emotional makeup and history, it’s easy for me to get angry at MYSELF but it was almost impossible to get angry at him. And while I am not advocating the suck-up-and-see method as the best solution, it totally helped me to finally accept it that that man did not give a flying flip about me. It’s gotten to a point where my health was in immediate danger and his reply was that he was too busy to deal with it and is going to sleep. It seems like I just needed to fill that glass of humiliations & to finally drink it and get angry. Hopefully, I have learnt from that experience a lot. I am still learning but now it’s not about him, it’s all about me, working on my own patterns of thinking and self-worth.
I promise you that there’s light. Don’t slam your present self-esteem for having to take a course in self-esteem. Take it as an experience in ENHANCING your self-esteem. You are enough and you’re getting better. Hugs to you.
Why,
I know exactly where you’re coming from with this…and love the term “relationshit”, describes it perfectly.
Like you I’ve only ever been good at being angry at myself, and getting angry at him has been the release I needed.
I went back for more – in that I was receptive to his return and future faking bs – but felt it was bs and stuck around for a week putting myself through it all trying to get straight answers from him. I learned a lot about who he really is, and saw him in full for the first time, illusions and fantasy totally shattered.
This morning I really felt grateful that I had stuck around for this, because if I’d walked when he’d first come back in I think I would have been stuck fantasising about the bs and willing it to be real (he told me he wanted to spend the rest of his life with me, and I dug it out he’s been saying the same thing to his wife).
Clearly I wouldn’t advocate this for everyone, I would hope people are better able to see these people as whole beings and step up for themselves without having to go back for more, but for me this wasn’t the case…until now.
Figuring it out – you are describing grief and you are right this is one of the necessary processes you need to go through in order to get over your break up and if you suppress it – it will come back to bite you – as suppressing any emotion will – if the grieving feels excessive to you then perhaps seek therapy.
Natalie your posts have a way of making things crystal clear.
You’ve got to be honest about where you forgot you while trying to make another person the centre of the universe.
There are so many lines from your post I wanted to copy and put in bold. Thank you so much for great wisdom.
Elgie R yourline
“But you were trying to win him by giving him something he never asked for. And you need to stop it and forgive yourself for damaging your piggybank for no reason.”
I remember being married and telling my now ex husband that I had done something expecting he would be pleased and happy. I remember his saying very bluntly I did not ask you to do that.” No thank you just a reprimand.
Sigh live and learn great posts and Say Something that phrase “counterfeit intimacy” is gold lol pun intended
Alia
Ouch! That line that your ex-husband said is a classic sign of a person who is NOT a giver and does not understand giving. Glad to see he is your EX.
Natalie, how to start forgive ourselves? I’ve been blaming myself for the past months trying to figure what I did wrong. That I should’ve done or said things differently. I’m practically living on crumbs and the crumbs had become a loaf these days. It really hurts.
Raine,
Forgiving yourself is a process. I am still working on it. It is like healing. It doesn’t happen overnight. It can take months-years depending what you are trying yourself forgive for. We are all fallible people. We all make mistakes. In your case, I think you are trying to control the process and the outcome of the relationship with that guy who has a girlfriend. So blaming yourself is “easier” because you think it is changing or could change or could have changed the events in that relationship. It will take time for you to recognize that you have done nothing wrong except for staying in this relationship. Leave it and start healing and working on yourself. Gradually you will forgive yourself and forgive him as well. There is no time table to it. It’s individual. But it will happen with time if you are willing to be honest with yourself and want to help yourself to grow and become a content and happy person.
Natalie,
It will sound cliche, but again, you hit the subject relevant to me right at the moment.
I thought I had started dating someone, but really, I went out with him just twice. He has a very high position in a big company where I work too (we are in different departments – we never even cross each other’s path), travels all the time and when he is not traveling, he sees his kids (divorced and sees his kids every other weekend). I have known him for two months now and seen him twice only. He is always busy and/or out of town or country. We have talked on the phone only once maybe and texted maybe 5 times in 2 months. At first I thought I liked the slow approach. Now, I think it is not just slow. It’s not going anywhere. Not even a meeting once a week or in two weeks. The most important thing and the most relevant to the subject of the article is that I started noticing my old patterns!!! My old patterns of waiting and hoping, excusing his “busy” life, and feeling the anxiety and ambiguity. And feeling the drowning and gulping in the drama! I am losing myself and building him up! I got really scared this week because I recognized my oldself. The patterns I had been always been doing until my epiphany breakup in 2014 and the discovery of this site and my spiritual discovery as well. The great thing and the difference is that I recognize what’s going on! Now, instead of engaging in the crazy behavior and the drama, I walk away. I am not engaging further in the waiting for the person to become not so busy to call me or even text me. To be available. For the first time in my life I am asking myself, What about Me!? Are my needs met? In the beginning of dating and discovery phase I would at the very least expect to meet up once a week and communicate via phone couple times a week at the very least. If the person is traveling due to business and is busy with the kids, that’s understandable, but one can maintain communication via phone until one has time to meet. To learn about the person and stay connected on a regular basis. To discover the person. It has been two months and although I had a doubt about “where is the fine line between going slow and no progress?”
Important thing is to listen to your gut ( I think he is attached) and to see all the red flags. And ask yourself, “what about me?” Am I lowering myself, lowering my expectations, to please (old habits die hard), to attract the person to feel myself wanted even if it undermines me. To make them feel like they are so important (to make us feel better about ourselves – that’s an ego trick we might not be aware of), so that they might be drawn to us. Ego struggle, self-esteem issues. The best thing now is that I recognize everything that is going on within me. This is so liberating. Thank you, Natalie and all the BR participants.
It is disappointing. Dating is hard. But we have to look at it and take it as another way to grow. To know ourselves better. To see where we have erred. To forgive ourselves. And to remember to care for ourselves and love ourselves. It was an amazing experience (just today and this week) to observe myself almost falling and catching my own self with my own love and respect for myself. I deserve much more. I deserve someone’s attention during the discovery phase. I give them 100% attention and I expect the same from another person. To be interested in me and engage in my life as we are learning about each other.
If I still have doubts, I ask myself (learned from BR), “how does he make me feel when I get in contact with him?”
He is making me feel uncomfortable. Uneasy. I feel unlovable and like something is wrong with me when communicating to him. That’s my answer if I still have any doubts. Choose yourself. And the right person will choose YOU and you will know it.
Dear Sofia,
wow I hope you do appreciate how far you have come!
Thank you for sharing x
Yay Sofia!!! I’m thrilled for you! Keep up the great work, You’re worth it!! Veracity
ReadyForChange and Veracity, thank you! Yes, I am so happy to realize how far I have come in just a year! It is amazing. Still work to do. I overinvested into analyzing about him these two months – that’s a mistake. I need to work harder focusing on myself, which I have been doing but not enough.
This discovery for yourself is life changing, Sofia, well done, I am really pleased for you – you have learned the ability to truly defend yourself against unworthy relationships – by looking out for yourself and your needs – and I look forward to hearing you say you have met someone worthwhile :-)really well done! Lovely post.
Thank you, Oona. I have been following you throughout last and this year, enjoying your posts and listening to your wisdom. It is a great feeling, isn’t it? Knowing how to stand up for yourself and protect yourself.
Beautiful and so worth it.
Sofia, I am in a same situation. He has high position in a big company. It requires him to fly to another continents and 4-5 countries every month. We date when he has to visit the country that I live in or we meet overseas. During my time with him, I’ve come to realize that he has another girlfriend (he wasn’t very careful). One that he met before me I guess. I was shocked but I didn’t tell him anything. I keep on dating him even though I know exactly what he’s doing because I care for him too much. I already invested myself. I couldn’t imagine how to live without him. but slowly somehow he changed… the last time he was here he said he was busy and couldn’t meet me at all. didn’t even call me. I was devastated. I found out later on that he went to the company’s event where the other gf works. He still texts me etc. I was living on crumbs already… now I feel like I’ve been given leftovers. I don’t know what I did wrong. I feel like it’s my fault. Worse I found out who the other gf is & I could say that she’s much more successful than I am career wise. And it just adds to my insecurities… I keep thinking of course he’d want to be with her. I’m really a wreck now… At day time I hold my head high trying to not to contact him. and yet when he contacts me all my defense is crumbling down.
Raine, you didn’t do anything wrong to cause his behavior. He was like that before you met him. The mistake was to not walk away once you found out he has a girlfriend. We all make mistakes and learn only from getting hurt really really bad… I would suggest to disengage from him. To stop seeing him. You can live without him. It will take a year or less of healing and moving on, but you CAN DO IT! I recognize former me in your post. I would have done the same thing (not being with a guy who has a gf but who feeds me crumbs and who feeds my insecurities and whose behavior confirms my beliefs about myself that I am not worth much at all – WE CHOOSE PEOPLE LIKE THAT BECAUSE WE THINK THAT’S WHO WE ARE). I don’t know how long you have been on BR. Read as many posts as you can and the comments too. I have been on BR for a year nonstop. A devastating loss happened late 2013 and the breakup followed the event. I spent every day here and started going to the church last year. Both the spiritual direction and BR help have been guiding me through all the hard days and months last year and continue doing so. You can be so much happier if you choose YOU and refuse accepting the crumbs. The truth is that he is just using you for whatever: ego, an extra supply, a high position man who can have many women, whatever his reasons are. And he is cheating on his gf too! He can’t be trusted and respected. You don’t want a person like that in your life in any capacity. Choose a day to stop being in his life and walk away! You CAN DO IT!
When I met him, I also knew he has a wife but they’re working on a divorce (or that’s what he said until i stumbled upon a picture of their recent family holiday.. now I’m not so sure). At first I thought this was just going to be some fun but he treated me so sweet I really felt what we had was special. How stupid I was. I’ve been on BR for a few months only. I realize now that I’m just his fallback girl. I read all the articles whenever I’m really down but some days it’s hard.
The last time we met had me really confused. We had a great night, but after that, he didn’t even cuddle or kiss me. I caressed his cheek but he flinched.. how it hurts. I left his hotel feeling like a whore but I let it slide. The next time he was here, he spent almost a week here but told me he has full schedule & couldn’t meet me (he went to the other gf’s company event). And I let the whole thing slide too. I didn’t make a fuss that he couldn’t meet me even though his hotel & my house is only 40 minutes away! My insecurities & jealousy is so bad that I grew obsessive about her. Why her, not me. Do I have to be as successful as she is so he’ll pay attention? He’s online, is he talking to her?
I’m reading this particular article again.. I think that’s what he’s doing?? “If anything, they will feel some level of guilt and rather than step up, they’ll act out, keep distancing themselves from you while telling you what they think you want to hear or pulling other passive aggressive acts because the nicer you are the worse they feel”. These days the daily morning and night greetings are gone. Replaced by texts asking me if I’m alright if I haven’t been really responding to his “how are you” text. I really want to tell him NO I’m not alright!! but I can’t.. I think you’re right about the ego stroke.. last time he texted me he was in his company’s meeting & told me that it was a meeting for the best of the best in a global scale. Of course being the woman who always tries to please her man.. I stroke his ego. And I just ended up disappointed.
All my close friends told me that I’ve turned into someone they don’t know. That I’ve turned “stupid from love”. The old me wouldn’t even THINK about letting some guy treats me like shit.. which is true. They all know me as someone strong in life & wouldn’t let other people mess with me. They all asked me to go NC with him. I tried. God knows I tried but if he does text me, I feel so rude if I don’t reply. ok I had no problem doing NC before.. I just don’t have the guts to do it with him.
So now I feel like I’ve been left hanging. is he just trying to fade out from my life? I try to move on. I really do.
YAY for you, Sofia. It’s wonderful to see someone actually APPLY the BR lessons! There are some posters here who seem to be living my parallel emotional life, and you are one of them. I am working at breaking old patterns too, trying to catch myself before walking down those familiar wrong roads. You saw a guy who appeals to you, but your gut is showing you he is a crumb merchant, and if you want more than crumbs, this is not your forever after guy. And before you started trying to convince yourself that you can do “casual”, your BR degree is telling you hey, this is not the man for me.
Good for you, Sofia.
ElgieR, thank you:)
Yes, it is bizarre to observe the “parallel emotional life” (great description!). Because I am so early into the transformation, I feel like I am watching old me falling and stumbling and the new me, like a parent, picking me up, cleaning the scratches, healing the wounds, and patting my head. Choosing me, accepting me, and loving me for who I am.
And no casual for me. My spiritual growth and the changes that occurred to me since in the last year will prevent me from having casual. I can’t and don’t want to do a relationship like this. I would rather remain single and having no sex for the rest of my life than doing mindless exercises, so to speak to feed the libido. No, the soul will suffer afterwords. And during I am sure. No. Not worth it.
Thank you for your support. I always enjoy reading your posts and can relate a lot to your stories.
P.S. Lol “crumb merchant” that’s awesome! I think in his case he is just not interested in me. Anyway, it doesn’t even matter. Like my daughter says (and she is only 10), “If someone is not interested in me, why should I be interested in them?” Wow. Learning from my child as well.
I got hypnotized by da DCK, and the crazed man attached to it. I paid the price.
Sophia, not to be mean to you, but did you talk non-stop and disclose too much verbally when you were with him? Some, men like less conversation and some time to get to know a woman, but if they are bombed by long wordy texts, and similar in person..that might be why he has literally distanced from you.
Er Angelface – do you over disclose when you meet people? I did and found information gained by the other was then always used to overly judge/abuse me/held against me – either ambiguously/secretly or overtly.
I found I did it especially the more nervous, unworthy, grateful and wrong I felt about being there in the first place – which is now a very very helpful red flag to not give a damn about what they might or might not want
….and retune and focus into my needs and real instincts immediately ie this person is not making me feel good for the wonderful person I actually am – boundaries!!….
You see the thing is there is nothing wrong with me or anyone feeling nervous about being in the company of someone and over disclosing – it is a perfectly legitimate response considering the experiences I and others have lived through – people CAN be dangerous to your health – but those that aren’t and these are the ones who are worth it – I find – will go out of their way to understand and find a way to connect safely with you – for who you are – whether you over disclose or not – don’t change yourself – change who you accept around you and you will find you don’t have as much of a need for those nerves that started it in the first place.
Well stated, Oona. I hadn’t put all the dots together yet and this was very helpful. Thanks! Veracity
Oona, what a wise comment “don’t change yourself – change who you accept around you and you will find you don’t have as much of a need for those nerves that started it in the first place”. BRILLIANT and so TRUE! A great reminder for myself too.
and then there are the examples of sex to early in relationship which quickly ends the relationship. Often when guys are “too busy” for a relationship with us, it really equals they don’t Want a relationship with us.
Angel Face, you are singing the “woulda, coulda, shoulda” song. There is no way a specific action is responsible for changing genuine interest into no interest – once you get past the discovery phase, that is. The discovery phase is where you find out if he chews with his mouth open, loves to pop gum, talks loud at the movies…etc..whatever your dealbreakers are. But once you decide to invest your emotions in a man, and then he backs off, no amount of twisting/bending/magic will reel him in, because his interest was temporary and shallow.
AngelFace, very good questions! I actually was controlling myself to have a balanced conversation during the two meetings we had. The texts we exchanged in two months were balanced too. Throughout these two months I applied all the BR lessons and consistently corrected and stopped myself when I wanted to send a lengthy text or talk a bit too much and energetically during our meeting. I remembered how I used to be and what could distance someone. I used to be very eager, approachable, pleaser, accommodating, a buddy, and talking too and thinking too much and writing too much. I don’t remember how many texts, 5 to 10 we exchanged. Not many at all for the time period, and which is good, I still think; another problem is that no other communication happened.
There was no intimacy between us. Couple quite innocent kisses and that’s it.
Yes, you are right. Being busy for me means not wanting to be with me. I completely understand and walk away and leave him alone. I even feel embarrassed for checking on him just once after he went silent for two weeks. Intruding and forcing him to lie basically about “busy” (two weeks of silence is enough in itself to understand) I feel I bothered him. But that’s ok. Next time with someone else I won’t even do one time (benefit of the doubt) last time checking before exiting. I am compassionate to myself. I did nothing wrong. He just didn’t choose me. Nothing is wrong with that.
Thanks for bringing up these concerns, AngelFace. They are good reminders as well to not overinvest and be overly eager in the beginning (or ever actually).
I think Elgie wrote this earlier? I apologise if I am wrong.
You do you and let him do him.
If he doesn’t like what you have to offer – time to move on to find someone who does – no matter what it is you are offering. Ie more conversation, longer words or physical loving.
Sofia, Oona both of your comments are so empowering. This is why BR is such a special place: this is a place of wisdom and support.
Thank you for reminding me to be a powerful woman who’s not ashamed to be myself too.
Sofia, I really like how clear headed your explanation is and how much in control you were. I need to remind myself about communication and intimacy (not the same) more often. All are great dating tips I wish someone taught me when I was a teenager by the way 🙂
Brilliant post brought home a lot of things about my past relationship and made sense of situations/experiences I had with him.
I made a lot of compromises a lot of excuses for him being the way he was and put a lot of blame onto myself.
I do not want to do that again moving into my next chapter.
Thank you!!
OMG! Yes if “someones stuff is going to prevent them from chipping in….” it’s like a lightbulb went off. Making so many excuses for him, was adopted, sexually abused as a child, can’t do any conflict at all, is sooo busy and everything has to be their way or they literally run away, leaving me when my beloved mother died and blaming me because i didn’t do it ‘right’, how to you handle the loss of your mother ‘right’, the list is endless. Two years is two too long to be with a man boy making excuses for way he can’t step up. Time for me to step out! And wake up!
Good timing. Caught myself not speaking out at a conference yesterday because someone I was mildly interested in was present and I didn’t want to turn him off with my environmental views. Whoops! Wait a minute: I AM a serious environmentalist and this dude might as well know it now and hate me if he must. If who I am is a problem, find out right now and do not waste precious time. Tis funny; those times I felt I could not be 100% in a relationship turned out to be relationships that were doomed from the get-go and my gut was sensing that something was off though I often didn’t know exactly what was wrong for awhile. Trauma dude emailed out of the blue wanting me to talk with a friend of his about some Native stuff, got insistent when I didn’t contact her right away and I had to remind him I am still getting over flu and can barely lecture much less yak on the phone. Had mentioned that a pet had died over the weekend and not so much as a mention of her. Kind of like when my dad died: didn’t return my call for hours and then it was all about when his mom died years before. Yep, giving myself a huge pat on the back for offloading him last fall.
Smiling – this is another post to be very pleased about Noquay – I am smiling at your post because I caught myself yesterday considering doing the same thing – changing how I presented myself – because a ‘dream’ man walked in the room, unexpectedly.
I hadn’t been challenged like that for a while and found my mask was immediately on alert ie I must show him what I think he wants to see/hear/what must he think of me? – not – get on with the clay I was enjoying working with and be in the conversations I was actually having with other new aquaintances I was enjoying having – never mind Mr Pretty who smiled.
For a good twenty or thirty seconds there I definitely zoned out!- how rude let alone anything else! And then I felt a huge HOLD ON A MINUTE – WHERE THE **** IS THIS GOING!! – I RECOGNISE THIS!!!
Next was…. perhaps I should make more effort with my rags and hair next time….I don’t feel good about myself like I did 1 minute ago when I didn’t give a damn!!!!
….oh I better watch what I say just in case, don’t say anything too controversial, too direct, too honest, too harsh – you never know who may be listening and what he will be thinking…blah blah blah….
….then, interestingly, I had a flash in my mind of being with him ‘lucky for me!’ with me stroking his ego and giving him attention – yet in my flash, I couldn’t understand or make sense of what the hell it was he saw in me or what he could possibly genuinely give back to me? (another old pattern of insecurity I have always previously ignored and wrestled with).
….and then I had a second flash of meeting a different man whom I was truly relaxed with – as battered and rugged as my bad haired, dressed, colostomy bagged, wonderful strong self that I am – and him, in my mind, genuinely likewise comfy with himself and open to a relationship for real/having one with me – in no doubt of what I or he felt – and the different feeling of the two flash relationships!!!! – there it was in microcosm – there just is no competition!…
Like Sofia, Noquay – it is so so good to spot it at the start – really great – such a time saver let alone all the emotional damage – I am really pleased to read this for you and like Sofia I look forward to reading about the amazing man you are going to meet – through showing up for yourself.
Figuringitout, saying something and Sophia, I can identify strongly with this article and with what all of you are saying.
Fio and ss, I too suffer from the self questioning and ruminating and pain. It’s been six months for me but if youve read any previous posts of mine you’ll know I’ve just fallen foul of a week long bout of the returning ex…who turned up saying he had 100% to give, then reduced in to 80%, but in fact the actions showed about -20%.
I believe I have lived this pattern through just about every relationship I have had…and I have done the analysis to know why and can feel it when it starts to happen and identify it.
Sofia I had this feeling too very quickly, but unlike you wasn’t far enough in my journey to stop myself right there and then and walk away. I found I still had to somehow go and prove to myself he was that bad.
Still, eventually, it did click and I did make a choice for me. When he was saying to me, “this is what I am, I’m going to discover myself, I’m not cutting anyone out of my life but I’m not going to be considering their feelings in my journey” coupled with his one week U turn and verbal abuse, and I actually decided I wasn’t sticking around to try and change his mind this time. I chose me and walked away. It still hurts like hell, still prone to ruminating, but starting the healing from a much better place.
I am certainly stuck with self forgiveness and compassion. I’ve done several things over the last few years that I am less than proud of, just can’t stop telling myself I should have known better (and can see little me being told that line at home growing up). HOW do we let go of this and start to truly heal from the inside outwards?
Colly, believe me I still have the internal desire to prove myself that he is not into me, to provoke something to get more hurt myself. It is the old pattern that luckily I recognize now. That’s a big difference. Back then I just followed my old ways. It was masochistic.
But now, like ElgieR put beautifully, I am leading the “parallel emotional life.” Seeing old me trying to do the old tricks, and the new me stopping me and my urges to repeat the same mistakes. Another thing that changed me is that I did have the ENOUGH after my last breakup. Something happened between my ex and me, which I don’t want to bring up anymore here ( I wrote about it in March-April 2013 posts) that completely turned me and my life inside out for so much better. There have to be two factors: the extreme hurt, heartbreak and the revelation that you can’t and won’t live the old ways anymore. The new YOU is born. From then on, you will never turn back. You will reach this point. You are not there yet. But you will. Keep on learning about yourself here. Believe.
I meant in March-April 2014 posts. That’s when I came on board and started my journey.
Sofia, thank you for the insights on your journey.
I do have the extreme hurt and have had the enough is enough moment. I literally feel like I can’t take anymore. The trouble I find is that somewhere along the way my brain kind of disconnects from it all – good because I detach from the feelings of love, but also the anger that keeps me straight. I never was good at angry, conditioned out of me at a young age.
I do understand you and Elgie about the parallel lives though. I’m not there yet, but I think getting there because when I think of me with him I see me with him, it’s no longer me looking at him through my own eyes – I think it’s a phase of detachment.
However, I did realise today he was trying to press the reset button on me and tap up an ego stroke. I had to do a bit of work this morning and emailed the results to a group including him (yuk still work with him remotely). He mailed the group back an answer, then me alone, using words like ‘we’ to suggest we were in it together and he was fighting for me – he says he will always fight more me at work (bs – he only does anything for himself). I replied something very work like before I realised what was going on. Then the penny dropped big time – him pressing reset and getting enough from me to go off comfortably and do his thing until he needs the boost again. Wow, now I’m conscious it’s in my power, and I will resist. It makes me want to vomit realising I’ve participated in an ego stroke. No more, no more…
Wow well done Colly you spotted what he is up to – reset button – and by doing so you bring the power back to yourself immediately irrespective of what has happened in the past.
Flush this man and move on – you’ve wasted enough time and energy. He isn’t the only possibility.
Colly, if I remember correctly, you are married, right? I remember your name and story on and off in some other posts but have not been following closely.
For you, the most important thing right now I think is to figure out your marriage. There is another person involved in this who might be going through hell as well. Do you want to leave your husband or work on the marriage?
I was married before (for 8 years) and I know that when you are in a marriage you become One, so to speak. Not meaning you lose your individuality, but you become one as a family unit. Right now and for I don’t know how long it has been, you have detached and you are not a part of the union anymore. You need to figure out first if you are in or out. If you need to separate from your husband for some time, to figure your life out, do it. I believe it’s very hard for you to focus on You right now because you are between two men and don’t have the time to attend to yourself. It’s always you doing something for someone else. If possible at all, try a separation phase with your husband. The time out will be a good time for you to think about you and your goals and your life. Meanwhile you need to cut the contact with the guy from work. Is it possible at all? I believe you have been having mostly long distance communication. If it’s possible, I would change the job. Work on yourself. And reunite with your husband if that’s what you want. At this rate you can drown in this drama for years to come. Because you are very confused about yourself and your goals. You literally need a time out and time alone for weeks and months and a different job. You are not getting any break so you can’t resolve anything. It’s time for a change. If you don’t drastically change your life circumstances right now, I think you will continue this drama with this guy for years to come because both of you seem to masochistically enjoy it (been there myself). This is my perspective and I don’t know your story much. I read just few comments by you. I haven’t followed closely because the matter of the subject was not close to home. I could not relate to it, so I didn’t get involved. But I read and thought about it. And I think it’s time to stop the crazy making and change the life around so that you can start from the scratch.
Sofia is saying keep focusing on YOUR needs Colly – you are doing really well!!
you HAVE found somewhere to do that here safely,
you HAVE been educating yourself also
and you HAVE started to apply your education in the field ie in reality….
You are moving in the right direction – don’t worry you ARE doing really well EVEN WITH MAKING A FURTHER BLIP and should be very very proud of yourself.
No toddler is perfect when learning to walk – but if they gave up after every wobble or fall down and beat themselves up for it – no one would ever learn to walk.
You are human and humans make mistakes – there is not a person alive who hasn’t, me included – it is what we do about them now and next that is the only focus and loving ourselves regardless!
Like Sophia says – do not stop now and ignore the situation you are currently in!!! Just don’t do it – keep going on.
If you are struggling with identifying what you really need or what is going on – distance will always help – whether it is for an hour or weeks – I used to go for lots of walks to get my clarity or a car drive? also writing – also a neutral ear like trained therapists? or close friend or here etc… Keep on Colly – failing is part of the process to change for real and succeed.
Thank you Oona for the boost. I feel I’ve progressed in my journey even if it isn’t that obvious from the stuff I write. I am in so much of a better place. I feel lighter.
Sofia, Yes I am married, for 11 years. I seem to remember you left your husband for an EUM – right?
So, I often feel trapped and like I just have to get out and be on my own to deal with stuff, but there isn’t just me to consider, and having a daughter and a husband there never will be. I understand you suggesting I separate, but knowing me that would probably be a bad idea. I’m very good (having done it in the past) at picking myself up, moving somewhere else, severing the past, and being a chameleon in my new place. In other words, I think I almost need to stay to put to make myself face all my stuff and really work on it.
As for whether I am in or not on the marriage. I’m in, just the release from the delusions and fantasies over exOM and what I thought he was and could do for me has me looking around at what I have with much more gratitude.
I need some time now to keep journeying into myself and dealing with all my rubbish. My home environment is the best place I can be. I’m a very lucky woman I realise, just need to stop beating myself up.
Colly, it’s great you realize you are IN your marriage and “a very lucky woman” to have the family that you have. I left the marriage 9 years ago due to my immaturity and inability to commit and appreciate the value of a family and marriage life. Took me several years to realize all that I did wrong and still do.
I hope very much you will find yourself and stay with your family. We are here to support you. Keep focusing on you and what’s important to you and your family.
Colly, one simple thing that actually works with such men (though it may take a couple of times) is when he does email you separately after a group emailing is to reply to him in a professional and detached tone AND PUT EVERYONE BACK IN THE COPY of that email. Do this a couple of times and he’ll learn his lesson and back off (he’ll be too scared to email you with any double entendre or his wishy washy sentences faking a special bond). This method works. Tried and proven 🙂
I remember having received some very euphemistic emails from an exEUM (happily girlfriended), pushing my personal buttons and hinting at our past relationship or even particular experiences. It was always “almost there”, never direct but just enough for me to guess where he was going with this. Our “secret language” of sorts. So I’d put part of the team, or say, a manager or an accountant back in the copy and say “XX, I don’t quite understand what you mean. Could you clarify please?”. Bam!
Do this a couple of times and he’ll get scared. People who do this are mostly cowards so this might scare him good.
Hahaha, great Why, thanks. He’d freak if I copied someone else on his personal, bonding, in it together emails. He would probably do something nasty or vengeful if I did that. He likes to think he’s the master of covert operations and that somehow I’m his accomplice that is an awe of his prowess and forever indebted to him for his help (he is a narc after all).
I will do the PUT EVERYONE BACK IN ON THE COPY though, that’s good.
Brilliant.
Colly,
You STOP TAKING SHIT, which you say you want to do. A person who declares that other’s feelings are of no significance is a person saying he doesn’t care about anyone but himself… “uh, but you’re welcome to keep investing. Don’t expect anything in return.” SELFISH. We can’t change other people. Best we can do is be honest about what’s important to us. When our needs (and they might be such simple ones, right?) are totally neglected, shouldn’t this inabilty for someone to meet our basic needs and requests be a DEALBREAKER? We know the answer, but we’re in too deep, running out of oxygen, while he has turned his back, emerged on the surface, and jumped back in the boat to check out all the beautiful sights above water.
Totally beautifully put. Get back in the boat Colly.
I mean YOUR real boat.
Spot on Say Something.
Let it go Colly, it’s a deal breaker with this man.
Oh the deal is broken. If someone can tell me outright that they don’t care about how I feel then there is no deal to consider. What a strange guy that he can say this and then I love you in the same conversation. He doesn’t know how to love.
Amen. This describes me to a ‘T’. But I’m slowly, yet surely, breaking those patterns. Onwards and upwards. Thanks for writing this…
This post couldn’t have been more timely. Unfortunately, I went into another relationship a year after my break-up with my abusive ex. I had some issues (why did I put up with my abusive ex for so long, for one?) that I thought I had worked on/through, and thought I was ready to try opening up to someone else. Unfortunately, I put myself into an already high-drama relationship, with a man who has a 10 year old kid, and an ex (the kid’s mom) in the picture all the time, which is something I was not emotionally ready for. Not only that, but she determined the when, how, where, and so my ability to see my boyfriend was determined largely by her whims. I wanted to appear like the cool, accepting, unproblematic girlfriend, so I put up with it. For too long. It’s been a year since we started dating, and he now takes me for granted. The other day I tried to take my power back by telling him that I did not like my schedule being determined by his ex (because he started having his kid over almost full-time, to allow his ex to “rest” because she’s pregnant again, with a third child, from another man — she already has a second child with said man). He listened and denied that it was his ex who determined the schedule, asked if it meant I was breaking up with him, and made no promises to change anything. I did not break up with him. 🙁 (it’s still hard for me to do that even when I know the relationship is not good for me). This happened to be the week of my bday. He did not get me a present, even though he had gotten his (girl) best friend a present on her birthday in addition to cooking a 3 course meal for her. He also had gotten his neighbor a bday present. He just cooked me a three course meal and invited his friends to my bday thing. But no presents from him. Now, if he was just someone who did not believe in gift-giving on bdays, I can understand, but considering the way he treated his neighbor and his friend, I was insulted and upset, though I did not say anything for fear of being called/appearing materialistic. Also, today, he told me that he was going to have his kid all week long next week, to give his ex time to rest (she is already on maternity leave, so she rests all day long anyway). I had told him clearly, just the other day, that I do not accept and will not accept being put second or third, just because of the choices his ex has made in life (having 2 kids and a third on the way). Anyway, talking did not do much of a difference, and it is clear I am not happy in this relationship and feel that in terms of effort, time, energy, etc., it is completely lopsided (90-10 maybe).. but I don’t have the courage to end it. I don’t know why. It’s not so much that I am afraid of being alone relationship-wise, but more because I did value the connections I had made with his friends. I don’t have friends I hang out with, because the friends I have are at university, which is where I study and work, and it’s highly competitive and people don’t want to hang out with a competitor, or maybe because they don’t like me much (I guess I am not a very likeable person in general… hehe).. so I value those friendships a little bit… I know that’s no reason to stay in a dysfunctional relationship. But also, I cannot forgive myself for having ruined things by spoiling him and his kid so much, and I feel that I can’t go back and fix that, even if I change my behavior from here on. I feel like he’s already gotten used to a certain dynamic, and that I can’t take my power back. It’s obvious that he is fighting that anyway, by passive aggressively forcing his ex’s agenda on me, so soon after we had a chat about that… I am so down and depressed today. I feel like I’m zero at this stuff. I feel like I should just be a hermit. 🙁
Lara, YOU don’t have to be comfortable with a dynamic that isn’t working. Have you read about triangulation with respect to personality disordered individuals? Introduction of a third party “rival” in a relationship creates that sense of uncertainty as to where you actually stand. Many times this technique just so happens to involve the ex. How are you supposed to act? Jealous? Understanding? Like a doormat? It’s no-win. And your birthday story sucks. Last year, I was pretty sure that BGE (not really Best Guy Ever) would remember when just a month earlier, my friend said when my birthday was. I was sure he’d heard her. PLUS, the month prior, I’d acknowledged his birthday. Fast forward two months to my birthday. He didn’t know. I didn’t say. I didn’t want to create any expectation or be at all disappointed, but of course I WAS. Looking back at last year, wouldn’t it seem that after making a “big deal” in a sweet way, about HIS birthday, he would ask when mine was? Nope. The morning after my bday, when I was leaving, I casually mentioned that the day before was my bday. He asked why I didn’t tell him. (why didn’t he remember or ever ask after 3 months???) and I just said that I was happy just to have spent it with him. There was never any follow up, mention of my birthday or belated gift after that day…
lara, this isn’t just about his ex – its about his kid too. And the kid has to always come first, definitely the kid will and should come before the girlfriend. that said, this man did something nice for you on your birthday but no gift. I think thats telling and its not a nice thing to do. At the same time, you are not confident in your position in his life and neither is he interested in making that position firm; even if he had got you something, you would then have been comparing the nature of that gift to whatever he got his girl best friend. Also, lets see, the ex, the kid, the girl best friend, errrrrr… you’re kind of way down on that list. This man doesnt seem to have enough place in his life for you. He may not be AC or EU – just a guy with a lot to handle. And you might not be the person for him – you might need someone with a less complicated history. His ex is already with someone else, but you’re still insecure. At the same time, that girl best friend seems a bit like harem to me – girl best friends that you give more gifts to than the woman you are sleeping with = weirdness. Or casual. He isn’t into this relationship the way you are.
You’ve put yourself down (re. your friends) and have put yourself in a position to be dependent on him and his friends. Way to take away all your power! You’ll find that the moment you break up with him, you find a whole new circle. This happened to me as I moved on from the EUM, and I am/was friendly with his friends. I didn’t even have to do anything, maybe something just shifted in my mind, and I had been invested in other social circles just hadn’t really fully got in with them – suddenly I’m getting these invites etc.
Also, you’re putting down your work friends in some way, you’re sending negative vibes to them I dont know why. You’re making yourself dependent on him. Why? To bind him more?
You’ve decided people are too competitive — errr, its your work! You need those people if only for the great networking opportunities that come from that socializing. Also as someone that had been in an abusive relationship, you need to maintain wide social networks – those are needed to help you reality check, and to be your fall back when you need to get out. Reach out to one of those people every week.
You also have given him ultimatums and been needy, but no follow through. This man is passing time.
Stop clinging, let go. Its okay. Trust me, us, BR. You had a bad relationship with someone abusive. This man will be your answer to show you that a) you can be in a relationship with someone non-abusive, b) you stand up for yourself, c) you find the person isn’t really responding though he’s not a total jerk – which is good, means you picked well enough, and now d) you realize what you have to do and you do it.
Also — you sound sad. Also a bit needy, and desperate. Dont feel that way. You’re strong now. You can deal with this guy. You dont need another relationship, you need to understand yourself and your triggers and to TRUST YOURSELF. Abusive relationship means that guy was manipulating your sense of reality etc., you need to feel secure to trust yourself and others.
This is the time you can fix what didn’t work with the last guy (not leaving soon enough) – this is not your last chance relationship wise, its your first chance to nail that breakup.
[Start by admitting the coverup, and no more overcompensating!!]
Lots of great points, Suki. This area concerned me though: “Also — you sound sad. Also a bit needy, and desperate. Dont feel that way. You’re strong now.”
I trust that this was meant with the best of intentions and meant to be encouraging and supportive. I don’t believe it’s in Lara’s (or anyone’s) best interests to tell her (them) what she should feel or not feel.
Many of us had our feelings invalidated as children so we learned not to trust our feelings or believed that our feelings were wrong. We end up invalidating our own feelings as a result and allow others to as well.
If Lara does feel those things, then it is important to feel them, really feel them, acknowledge them (affirm them). That’s where her power is, not in denying them or avoiding them. As many of us have learned denying our feelings leaves us powerless to heal them. We just continue to act them out, because they are going to come out one way or another. Better to just dive in, pay attention to the thoughts that contribute to those feelings, and eventually you make it to the other side, feeling self-validated and stronger.
Part of learning to trust yourself, a very big part, is trusting/affirming what you feel. Best, Veracity
You’re right, V, and Lara. I dont mean to discount your feelings. Rather to suggest that perhaps this is what you ARE feeling, and suggest you can move beyond this. I felt from Lara’s post that you were unhappy but externalizing all of it, and couldn’t step back to take an outsider’s perspective. There seemed to be this need to fix things, have him validate you, while not acknowledging that perhaps this dynamic makes you feel needy, is not right for you at this point. Needy and desperate tends to make for bad decisions, so it is totally important to recognize it for what it is. It does cast a different light to say; yes maybe I am being ignored for my bf’s child, but also perhaps I am being needy or his behavior triggers neediness and makes me unhappy, not able to enjoy myself etc.
At the same time feelings are not facts. We feel a lot of ways, and it is important to see that not all of those are serving us. Definitely accept and validate your feelings, and first identify your feelings. The next step should also involve testing different interpretations of those feelings against whats going on.
Good luck Lara, my apologies to sound harsh or flippant.
Well, if you have fun with the child, there needs to be a balance when she stays with him. Try getting a babysitter or family she can stay with for a ‘date night’. If you cannot schedule things for just the two of you short term, you need to decide if your next relationship could include small children or not. do you want kids of your own? these are relationship deal breakers you are coping with. If he has a child, you are a big part of the childs life at a sensitive age. You need to decide if that is something you would like to do in your life. So, if you pitch in and help, they should do something for you as well. Reciprocity is so important. The lack of reciprocity broke up my last relationship because of children and step children. If you are cared for, some of your wishes should be granted when children are involved, not the ‘kids’ getting it all their way while you give and give to them.
Hi Lara. Why are you putting yourself in a box here? You said you had problem walking away from an abusive ex, yet you are refusing to remove yourself from this relationship that isn’t working for you. Either your boyfriend is more considerate of his ex or his playing you against her. Some men love to do that. As NML says many times before, if it’s a choice between you and them, always choose you.
Also, there’s nothing wrong with a man prioritizing the well-being of his young kid above all, but it should not be at the expense of you feeling unappreciated. Forgive me for saying so, but in your place, I’d flushed that relationship down the toilet.
Hi truthinclarity,
Thanks for the reply. I don’t think he is playing me against his ex. He is totally not that sort of a person. But I do think that there is some sort of a dysfunctional dynamic at play, that has long been established, and that he is too lazy/fearful to change. It has cost him other relationships before — even by his own admission, the women left because they felt unappreciated. I guess he was trying to tell me not to expect him to go out of his comfort zone and change things for me. It’s on me that I chose to stay this long — absolutely. I can’t blame anyone but myself. At any rate, I very much doubt that it’s fear of his ex. Custody laws here are very progressive and egalitarian. She just cannot deny him joint custody, if he tells her he can’t have his kid on a particular day or whatever. So that’s not the reason. I think it is a mixture of him feeling like he owes his ex something, for making her life so hard (because he left her and his kid), and feeling like he has to accept taking his kid when his ex suggests it, because she will use it against him if he says no (by telling the kid that his father doesn’t want to see him). He even admitted to having some sort of guilt over putting his kid through separation. I don’t know what his ex is like. I’ve seen her only once at his kid’s concert, and he did not introduce us, and she completely blanked me anyway. Maybe she is the type to do that sort of manipulation and try to play the kid and the dad against each other, if she doesn’t get her way. I don’t know. But one thing I know for sure, he is a “yes-man” as far as his ex is concerned. And several women left him because of that. Frankly, at this point, he does not seem to care much that these women left him, or, for that matter, that I might leave him. Based on what he’s said and done so far, it seems like he is doing his goddamn best to get his ex to rest her feet, but absolutely nothing to make me feel appreciated. I understand wanting things to be smooth between you and the mother of your kid, but that does not entail acting like her husband….??
Lara,
You didn’t “ruin things by spoiling him and his kid.” A man who is that involved in his child’s life is being a good father. How do you expect this relationship to go? If you marry him, you will be a parent to his child regardless, and he will always be working custody days out with his ex. He and his ex are working out time spent with the child, he’s not at her mercy. And it is a good thing he spends a lot of time with the child, not a bad thing. HE also made the life choice to have a child, it was a mutual decision with his ex, it was 50/50, not all her as you try to assert here.
You will always have to share this man with his child, and the child will rightly come first. If you’re resisting that now after only a year, why do you think this is the relationship for you? He’s a package deal and always will be.
Hi Crystal,
I am not asking him not to spend time with his son — but I don’t feel like I have to accept EVERYTHING he does for his son, that does not necessarily have to do with meeting his son’s needs, being there for his son, etc. In other words, his son does not NEED to be with him all week, just because his ex has opted to have another child (with another man), and has shipped off her child (whom she shares with my bf) for an entire week. She is pregnant, not comatose. She drives, goes places, she can go pick him up from school. She has a car, he does not. It’d be easier for her to pick him up from school, ESPECIALLY now that she no longer works. Like I said, she is only pregnant, not comatose or on the deathbed. I only have so much sympathy for someone like that. It was her choice to have kids, and she is on maternity leave, that is all. The baby has not even arrived yet. My bf gets along with her, but there is a sense of unspoken jealousy and anger, because my bf feels that his ex’s husband has taken his place and is trying to steal his role as the kid’s “father”. At any rate, he is going out of his way to spoil the child, because he thinks this is a competition/game in which the person who spoils the kid the most gets to win… The outcome is a kid who is totally spoiled and completely unwilling to do anything on his own, including getting a glass of water. At any rate, I have observed this dynamic and have not said anything, because I felt it was not in my place to say anything. But I DID become caught up in this dysfunctional dynamic, of a manipulative ex / my bf who is trying to bend over backwards to please his ex (for whatever reason) or to score brownie points with his kid, by showing that while his mom and stepdad shipped him off, he was there for him and gladly took him. The outcome? WE have not seen each other since last week. This entire week, he did not even lift a finger to call me. Even though his teaching session has ended (he teaches on a contract basis) so he is on a break and has the entire morning/early afternoon off while his kid is at school. I would’ve even felt fine if he had made some effort to call me, and understood that he had no choice but to take the kid (even though that’s not true), but look how far he has pushed, because he is taking me for granted. This is happening shortly after I expressed to him that I was not happy that his ex was setting my schedule for me. I understand that I cannot impose a custody schedule on them, but I feel completely sidelined when he tells me, out of the blue, that oh by the way, because my ex wants to stick her feet up and not be bothered by the mere presence of our son, I’m having him all of next week, whether you like it or not. She has not even had the baby yet, so I can only imagine what it’s going to be like when she does. The kid is probably going to move in full-time with him. Well, someone asked what I expect from this relationship, if I cannot tolerate his kid.. I do like his kid — but it’s just all those things that he does, that turns me off the idea of even spending time with him while his kid is there, not to mention even contemplating the idea of moving in with him (forget that!)…. It’s not the kid, or the idea that he has a kid or that he will put his kid’s needs first, but how he deals with it, that pisses me off. Also, putting your kid first doesn’t mean completely sidelining your gf. It means making sure your kid is taken care of, fed, has everything he needs, physically and emotionally, etc. It doesn’t mean, though, catering to a spoiled adolescent’s manipulative ways, because it looks like it’s an “emotional need.” That’s sort of blackmail territory. Anyway, talking to him about it seems to have made things worse.
I can’t make any plans with this man. He refuses to give me a yes or no answer to anything I suggest that is 2 weeks away or whatever (going to an event together, etc.), because his ex throws nasty surprises and curveballs at him, in the form of deciding that she can not keep the kid on that particular day, and that he therefore has to take him (because she does not want to invest in a babysitter). Then, when I go ahead and book things on my own, because he didn’t give me a concrete answer and I had to book things sooner rather than later, he acts all distant and disappointed. I asked him if he wants to accompany me to my friend’s wedding. He hasn’t given me a concrete answer. I am holding off on sending the RSVP because I have to indicate the number of people on it. I am going to go ahead and send it anyway, because if I do ask him a second time, he acts frustrated because he feels pressured or something. Walking on eggshells.
Also, his ex tricked him into having a child. He never wanted a child. She claimed she was taking birth control, and got pregnant. Then refused to abort the kid, when my boyfriend said he didn’t want the kid. He decided to hang around for a few years with them, and then left her. Initially, he did not see his kid for a year. Then, when she started going out with her now-husband, he felt threatened and jealous, and decided to get joint custody of the kid.
Agreed, too many people spend time trying to figure out what they could have done differently to salvage a relationship. There’s nothing wrong with some self reflection but to be honest, all too often it’s just that things have become stale.
Enjoy your work.
-PB
thepantslessbear.wordpress.com
I did this for 3 years. One day, I walked out and have not looked back. It’s been hard. He still texts me and tries to call me but I’ve been trying to be strong by going no contact. Some days are easier than others but I know it’s a process. I compromised so much for this boy (not a man who is 40!). It’s hard and I read “does he miss me?” a lot for I get soft but read that post to remind myself, he only misses what he needs..
I gave him 110% and he gave me 50% (maybe). So skewed. So imbalance. We as women need a man to love us 110% because we are natural givers so we will naturally give us our all.
be strong everyone.. i gain strength from your courage, strength and optimism we will all have a happy ending (with or without a man).
Lara, why don’t you get yourself a hobby or two to do something you enjoy and meet new friends?? You seem very young, why have you found yourself a boyfriend with so much baggage? (demanding ex and a child) Btw, what his ex is doing is very wrong, sending her child away when waiting for another child, the girl must feel abandoned. And btw2, re presents issue, I do a lot of things for my friends which mean zero to me because they mean a lot to them.
@colly, keep moving away from this man! Both emotionally and at work (to the extent you can). It is so unhealthy for you. He is such a jerk and so selfish. The further you get from the clearer and easier to accept this will become. But it requires a real, long break and acceptance that he is not the man for you. He doesn’t sound like much of a man at all.. Move away from him!
@colly, I say this knowing how insanely hard it can be to move away. I think in my situation, one of the best and worst things that happened for me was really losing my shit at the MM in my situation, because it scared him and forced us to go NC for real. If you want to really put this to rest and move on and heal, then hopefully you can find a way to really get away from him for real and for good.
@Leanne,
Yes, I lost my shit with him in the end, but on paper in an unset letter rather than yelling at him. When I did speak with him I managed to calmly state all the reasons why he was not a good person to have in my life…and honestly, I really hd no energy left for him at this point.
Hope you’re still doing great.
I thought I was reaching a place of self-love until the sexual assault happened and I blamed myself (Serene, Selkie,lsjrmissy, if you’re reading, I read your replies to me. Thank you sooo very much for reaching out in support!). My therapist asked me if I think I deserve love and I hesitated. On the surface, it’s a silly question because of course I think I do! And yet, and yet…I hesitate to answer, “Yes.” That’s my big question for the week and I hope to have articulated an answer by our next meeting.
Some of my old affirmations ate written as, “I deserve respectful treatment,” and “I can set goals.” The first affirmation is about my expectations of others but where am I in that? Where’s my action? Am I just mentally sitting on the couch feeling entitled to respectful treatment? The second affirmation says what I’m capable of but doesn’t state the “why” I should put forth the effort to set a goal and work toward achieving it.
It’s the word “deserve” that I’m stumbling on and I think it’s more about realizing that my stumble is in learning how to take myself, my life seriously. It’s not about “what I deserve” at all but about learning how to do the internal action of self-love. For example, “I deserve respectful treatment” has changed to, “I deserve to respect myself.” “It’s o.k. to be imperfect” has changed to “I deserve to forgive myself.” “I can set goals” has become, “I deserve to set and achieve goals.” It’s about learning to think of myself as an equal member of this planet.
How did things get this bad internally? My eyes opened even wider when I tried to tell my mother about the assault and she found a way to make it about her. I was flabbergasted. Yet, it was quite telling about how I got this bad as to blaming myself for the sexual assault and not knowing how to mentally and emotionally care for myself. Wow!
I found forgiving myself for the mistakes I feel I made to trigger abuse or unloving behaviour from others or anyone – is the hardest thing but key to believing I deserve loving behaviour.
Spotting early when abuse or unloving behaviour is happening is helpful to the key – IT ISN’T YOU, IT IS THEM. Hense not having to take responsibilty for THEIR mistakes.
Every time something happens – I find myself reverting to ‘I must have done something to deserve that – I wonder what it was?’ = LEARNED BEHAVIOUR and there is ALWAYS something I did and always will be because humans always make mistakes – always.
Thing is to change that question to –
I notice something here… how do THEY make me feel for real? and what can I do to right now to protect myself if it is bad? – Then do it. This is what I am working on currently.
You will NEVER be responsible for OTHERS behaviour. It does not matter if you went into a males bar with your skirt hitched up to your ear rings or you did something truly terrible to your mum – as you have worked out – a person showing loving behaviour DOES NOT take advantage of you or anyone in a vulnerable moment – for their own needs – it simply is not loving towards anyone – including themselves in the long run.
Good luck lady on your journey – YOU are the WOW in this journey.
Hi Rosie,
I like your new list of self affirmation. I am so sorry for what happened to you, I know what you are going through. I put myself in a bad position a few years ago where I would either get violently rape by a man that I was interested in, or allowed him to have sex with me.
It took me a longtime to forgive myself for what happened that night. It was a Monday night, I was getting my phone off the charger around 8 p.m. when I noticed a couple of missed calls from a guy that I was really interested in. I am ashamed to say that I was excited. I thought he called because he wanted to reschedule a cancelled date with me. But when I talked to him, he asked me to meet him for a drink. I reaffirmed to him that I wasn’t much of a drinker and that it was a work night and I had to get up very early in the morning. He begged me to meet up with him and promised that I didn’t have to stay for more than an hour. I didn’t want to seem inflexible, (I’ve been accused of that before) so I accepted.
Going back before that night, he had invited me to a club for a drink on a Saturday night. That offer came after he cancelled a date with me on the pretext that he had a headache. I declined because I am not into the club scene, but I offered to meet with him at a quite neighboring bar for a drink, though that’s my style either. He in turn declined my offer because he had VIP passes. I bade him goodbye and wished him a fun night. The next morning, he sent me a text requesting to come by my place for sex because he was in great need of affection, his words. I thanked him for his interest, but told him this wasn’t my style. I was so angry with this man for daring to make such a proposition to me, yet I didn’t write him off because I was so desperate for a relationship.
Going back to the fateful Monday night, I met him at a bar/restaurant in a nearby town. He knew the owner and the place well. When I got there, he was talking with another woman, while the restaurant owner was chatting me up and praising his character. I drank half of a half-glass of Port wine and wanted to leave after 30 minutes. I checked my phone for the time, and I noticed that he sent me a text while I was sitting next to him at the bar. The text said whether I wanted to go somewhere with him. I asked him where, he replied anywhere he chose. I declined. That’s when the future faking started. Now, he starts talking (out loud) about wanting a kid badly. He talked about his ex-wife miscarriage (recently divorced, AVOID at all cost). He asked me right away to go to Puerto Rico with him. In my head I am going “we’re already there?” but instead, I said that I couldn’t take time off from work. Anyway, I decided to leave because it was already 10 p.m. He offered to walk me outside, once out, he wanted to drive me to my car. I laughed and declined because my car was just a few feet away. He insisted and again I didn’t want to be rigid, I accepted. Another HUGE MISTAKE! Once I was in his car, I was already following his script. We started to kiss and his hands were everywhere, I pulled back and told him that he was going to fast. That’s when he started begging me to go somewhere with him just to talk. He was like, “please (insert name), I never begged for anything before.” I felt so bad for him, I agreed to go to his place. He replied that he was in the process of moving out and his place was a mess. He wanted to go to mine, I declined because I lived with my sister and I was uncomfortable bringing in a stranger into my home. That my friends was a STUPID decision. So I let him drove me to a local hotel and he got us a room. Once we got in the room, I became flirty, walked toward him and kissed him. He asked me to undress, I did but kept my bottom underwear. I am thinking that we were going to talk, kiss and cuddle a bit, as he promised in the car. But it didn’t go like that. He ripped off my panties and got on top of me. I told him that I didn’t want to have sex. He wouldn’t listen. I tried to push him off, but he was much stronger than me. As I was trying to push him off of me, I realized that he was drunk because he was drooling and I remember feeling disgusted because he reminded me at that moment of a leprechaun. He told me to open my legs and relax. While all this is happening, my mind was racing. I was thinking, “How was I going to explain to a courtroom that this man raped me without absorbing the blame? What would happen to my job if my employer finds out that I exhibited such poor judgement and stupidity?” I knew that I couldn’t handle that, nor the idea of being a raped victim. So, I decided then and there that I would sleep in the bed that I laid out for myself. Believe me, this is when things became really weird. He started telling me that I was the woman of his dream and I bought into it and completely denied and buried the actual truth of what was happening. I became convinced that it was consensual.
Morning came, he dropped me off to my car a quarter past 5 a.m. and I raced home to get ready for work. I was sore for the entire day, but I thought of it as good loving. He sent me a text during the day, I don’t remember the content. After that Monday, he stopped training at my gym.
After that night, I was in denial and did some more cover up to justify it. I still wanted to have a relationship with that man, but I wasn’t comfortable with what happened, I had to legitimize it. I would get so excited when he sent a text in the days that followed. I met up with him another time at a different hotel, this time, I knew exactly what I was doing and I was the one doing the fast-forwarding by asking him to follow through with his promises. We ended up having an argument and I didn’t hear from him for a month. In that month, I acknowledged that I was messed up and sought help. I made an appointment to talk to a local therapist, he dismissed me by telling me that he met many women with similar stories. He even suggested that I become a lesbian. I should have walked out of his office at this point, but I didn’t, I was still into playing nice. When I got home, I cancelled my next appointment with him. He called me back and apologized, he still offered his service. I declined and told him that I was aware that I lacked boundaries and that I was going to work on that. I went to amazon.com and selected two books that I really wanted. NML’s Fallback Girl and Why do Men Love Bitches. I picked the latter because Natalie’s book was only in print. I finally bought the Fallback Girl last October on kindle, but I kicked myself daily for not reading it sooner. It would have saved me from myself. Not one day goes by that I don’t regret not finding this website sooner.
Another reason why I picked Why Men Love Bitches, at that point, I still valued the opinion of a man over mine. I was 35 years old, desperate for a relationship and to start a family. Ladies, beware of that biological clock. Don’t ever make decision solely based on the fact that clock is ticking. In general, I am not a stupid person, but I made lots of mistakes because of my need to have children and the nature of being pressed for time. I am now 39 years, after a couple more attempts to find love in empty wells, I gave up on the dream of having biological children. I am now focusing on loving myself and become the woman who is comfortable in her skin and her own judgement. Nature’s clock is no longer relevant to me. I haven’t give up on love, nor having kids. I plan to adopt one day and be a good mother to a child who needs me. Before I can do that, I need to be able to lead by example when it comes to treating oneself with love, respect, care and compassion.
Forgive me everyone for writing such a long missive, but as I was writing it, I realized that I had to tell it all if I was going to be truthful. Nowadays, I accept nothing but the truth.
Rosie
My heart goes out to you. Thank you for telling your story even though it must have been hard to do so. You didn’t do anything to deserve being raped. What he did was unconscionable and being drunk does not excuse what he did.
I understand you made some bad judgment calls but that doesn’t mean you are at fault for what happened, he is, not you.
Take care Rosie xoxo
Truth in clarity thank you for writing your story here – I have had a similar experience years ago but didn’t learn there and believed for years after with this and other poor experiences – that I had made all the mistakes that led me there and that I didn’t deserve any better.
This is a common feeling for all victims and serves us, we believe, because if we can work out our mistakes that led us there – then we can make sure it never happens again – AND HAVE CONTROL over ourselves/our bodies once more/feel/be safe etc…
Being accused of being inflexible or boring or stiff or something negative that rings true in our OWN insecure personal checklist (of things we feel we must not be to be chosen) = emotional blackmail and is highly damaging/abusive in itself – especially if we decided these things before we met them and are in a past list. As a race we are pre-programmed into wanting to be accepted by our other fellow humans and it also has primal survival implications – so we will all want to dis-spell anything that seems to separate us from them.
Emotional blackmail is a classic killer of asserting YOU in anyway
and a powerful killer of you putting any needed necessary safety boundaries in place ie YOUR NEEDS.
and a clear sign to potential abusers, if they pass this test – that they can push any of your boundaries
and also simultaneously – where any real relationship stops.
A real lover will want to know the real YOU/ your real needs and support YOU in getting those needs met – not humiliate and force someone into doing what they want by emotional blackmail or other means… it serves only to shut you down straight away – as you and I now sadly know.
You describe yourself as ‘stupid’ for going to his flat. You are not stupid, it was not YOUR mistake – any person who treats you badly and takes advantage of your goodness (which is a thing to value and will be valued by any vaguely intelligent person)- is STUPID.
Following this experience, you went back to ’empty wells’, as I did also, many times, alongside further worse physical abuses. But you have worked out now that the key to this for yourself is knowing yourself/ respecting yourself and loving yourself – which is brilliant! This is a truly the safest and most loving place I have known in my life and I thoroughly recommend it.
I have one question for you to ask yourself – when you were being asked in the beginning to go to bars that you clearly didn’t want to go to, due to lots of good legitimate reasons for YOU, do you know what you would have preferred to do/happen at that moment?
If you didn’t then, do you know now?
And what would you prefer a lover to be like now?
Good luck to you on your next part of your journey. I look forward to reading more from you.
I’m so sorry that man raped you, Rosie. It takes great courage to face it the way you are. It’s not your fault and you certainly did not deserve it.
It must have been excruciating to have your mom invalidate your needs and feelings and make it about herself. I’m glad you are in therapy and have support in your journey to heal.
I wanted to write to you before and everything I thought of just seemed so inadequate.
Have you ever tried saying your affirmations to yourself in the mirror? I’ve found it to be very powerful.
You matter, Rosie. Your feelings, thoughts, beliefs and needs matter.
I wish you all of the best. Take good care of you. Veracity
Natalie, you spoke to me with this post, and now I’m listening. Friday night was the last straw; there is nothing here for me with this man, and after a long cry, berating myself for busting my boundaries and wondering where it went wrong, I saw it had been going in that direction for long time. I was making excuses for him because of his health, life issues, etc. No more! My eyes were ready to be opened.
Lovely and well done Sue – give the love to yourself – do not overly question what YOU did wrong but question what HE did wrong and move on.
For me, over-giving is such an automatic response — I see, but don’t see, that I’m giving more than I want to. I was recently talking with my counselor about an ex who has popped up after years of no contact, wanting to see me. Counselor asked, “What do YOU want? Do you want to see this person?” I said no. She pointed out that I had choices — ignore the e-mail, or respond, “No thanks.” I had the right to choose what I did about my ex, she reminded me. The ex and I have been apart for many years with no contact. Neither of us owes the other anything.
That shouldn’t have been a revelation to me, but it was. Why did I need someone to tell me something so obvious? But I did. It is just how I think — if someone wants something from me, saying yes is so automatic, whether I want to give it or not. I feel guilty, rude, mean if I don’t.
And that’s silly. Someone who has lived without me for so many years, is not going to die of heartbreak because I don’t answer an e-mail! I still have this big blind spot, that I can’t say no — and I was not fully aware of it. I read somewhere that a blind spot is not just what you don’t see — it’s that you don’t even know that you’re not seeing it.
I will say that there is also some “last chance saloon” thinking here. I grew up being told by my mother that I really wasn’t that attractive or pleasant. So if someone is interested, I feel grateful — and as if I can’t say no. I do, maybe nobody else will be interested. This is silly thinking that has made me hang on to relationships where I wasn’t even all in. I’m working on changing it, reminding myself that I do have value. If people have wanted me in the past, probably someone will want me in the future. If not, it’s still better to be alone that with someone I’m not thrilled with…or with someone who isn’t thrilled to be with me.
Tanya Z.
The big take away for me from reading BR has been to learn to value and love myself. Getting past our childhood deprivations and growing up is not easy but can be done. I had a lot of issues with my parents while I was growing up but now they are both gone I have come to terms with the fact that they weren’t perfect and like everyone, they made lots of mistakes as I know their childhoods weren’t exactly perfect, I know my father had an alcoholic father who beat him regularly as a small child although this was never spoken of. A small glimpse into his upbringing and the hell he must have lived through.
If we don’t value ourselves no one else will. If we keep saying yes to everything when we should be saying no, we will get used and abused and the users and abusers will have no respect for us.
And so that downward spiral starts.
As long as we have self respect, boundaries and we value ourselves, our opinions and believe we are worthwhile of being loved and respected for who we are, these users and abusers won’t get a look in because it doesn’t matter one little bit what they think or do, it matters what YOU think and what you do.
Your therapist is right, we have choices and we either don’t realise or understand that we do when we think we don’t. There is always the choice of accepting shady behaviour or saying get lost and rejecting it right from the start.
This is what I’ve learned from Nat and BR over the last few years. Given a choice, choose YOU first.
Tayna Z. I had a similar conversation with a therapist years ago. I felt so foolish for not knowing it. Now I understand that I didn’t know it because I was taught that I didn’t have the right to say no. i.e. it was ‘bad’ to say no. I was taught to be compliant. Yes = good, no = bad, selfish.
It’s great that you are beginning to recognize this.
There’s a great book on boundaries that explains why we need boundaries, where we learned our lack of boundaries and why, and how to set boundaries with various personalities. It’s called: Boundaries: When To Say Yes, When To Say No, To Take Control Of Your Life. By Dr. Henry Cloud & Dr. John Townsend.
Me too – we were preconditioned into it by families when we were children as a way to control us – hense not ever questioning it or seeing it before.
@ Colly
I think we both started this beginning of the end at similar times. Circumstances are similar as I still occasionally see and work with EUMM, so too have to deal with the email etiquette etc. my boss came into my office a few weeks ago, not sure whether to tell me or not, but did anyway! That ExMM had had an accident and was in hospital waiting for an operation. I Wanted to text, to say blah blah but I stopped myself. I decided that despite his unfortunate situation, he was probably back with his wife, so she would rightfully look after him, and he didn’t deserve my sympathy as he hadn’t treated me with honesty and respect. again when he came into the office a few weeks later with his arm in a sling, I didn’t men anything- I simply said hello, and responded that I was fine when he asked, and moved on with my life. I’m not going to lie, it wasn’t easy.
even though he left his marital home and rented elsewhere, he returned back 15 times!! Can you believe that I was that stupid?!
So I fig out that if he had lied to me and his wife for nearly 5 years, and was 51, he is not about to change! It’s like 1+1 is NEVER going to equal 3, it is an impossibility. He would have to change as a person, and that was not going to happen. I feel empathy now with his wife- she’s not as far as I’m aware of his specific mental health issues that led him to attempt suicide last year. Equally her self esteem must mirror mine, if we were both going to accept back this man 16 times. I learned that he just can’t tell the truth and that ain’t gonna change. I am truly sorry for getting involved with her husband (I didn’t initially know he was married when he asked me out). I take full responsibility for getting involved with a married man, and have learned a very hard lesson.
Anyway, here are some things that I have done which may or may not help-
Getting therapy
Asking friends for support
I’ve just bought Susan Elliot’s getting past your breakup (recommended by therapist)
Writing a list of things and ways in which I was treated badly
Exercising and eating well
Giving yourself permission to grieve
Completely cutting down on alcohol
With regards to work, every email is very formal and ends with ‘regards’ lalamwah- this includes emails just to him, and other emails where I need to copy him in on
I made a decision to stay single for a year at least, so that I can work on myself and not continue to make the same mistakes
I hope this helps and hope you and Leanne too are feeling inner peace now that you are no longer involved.
Oona, truthinclarity, Pauline, & Veracity- Thank you. First, some clarification: I was sexually assaulted but he didn’t fully rape me as people walked by. My attacker was a stranger who grabbed me from behind when I was walking home from work. I walked down a street that is busy during the day but quiet at night. I live in a decent neighborhood. It was my first time walking that street at night. I won’t ever walk that street again.
During the sexual part of the assault is when I blame-absorbed unconsciously. I thought, “This is the best I can do–users and rapists?” It was an insane thought to have and, if it weren’t for my realization that this is a crazy thought to have during an attack, I may not have entered therapy for it. Is this what “splitting” is about–the sane me taking mental note of the insane me? I don’t know. After telling my therapist about my mother’s reaction, my therapist said that my mother’s behavior was appalling & it’s miraculous that I have any self-love at all. I told my therapist that I’ve diagnosed my mother has having Borderline Personality Disorder (Who needs a Ph.D, test results, & objectivity, lol? 😉 🙂 )
The incident happened about 6 (7?) Weeks ago. An acquaintance told me today that I look happy again. This acquaintance doesn’t know about the attack. Someone else commented too today on my smile. I didn’t know I was smiling so much today. 🙂
Truthinclarity, I’m sorry that you were raped. I understand your confusion & self-doubt at first about what happened. When we aren’t given a voice as children , we’re two people at the same time. Our mind is saying no while another voice in us is saying, “You don’t mean that. Look how he’s suffering,” & our actions reflect both voices at the same time. As Oona said, even if we walked into a men’s bar with our skirts hiked up to our earrings, his behavior is his responsibility. I’m glad that you now know that. What a horrible, horrible experience! Yes, we are the “wow’s as Oona said (Thank you, Oona! 🙂 ). Yes, to survive some of the events & -upbringing we did & to still be the good, strong, loving people we are is miraculous. We are walking miracles! 🙂
Hi Rosie,
Thank you for your kind words. Two things, first I am very happy to hear that you escape the worst, thank God for that. I am also happy to hear that that experience didn’t destroy your natural optimism, keep on smiling. Second, I want to apologize to you for revealing my personal experience while trying to empathize with you. I could have been more tactful and restrained. Please know it wasn’t intentional, it just came out. My very best to you.
Truth in clarity I can’t speak for anyone else but I can speak for myself when I say I connected with your post and value it but understand if you feel uncomfortable with the deep personal nature of your response – I have questioned my own very detailed personal posts on BR a number of times after connecting and sometimes perhaps projecting on others posts – but these suppressed feelings – will out themselves – and is there another place where you can anonymously be yourself? – your whole and full wonderfully imperfectly perfect self?
Veracity- Thank you for the suggestion of telling myself the affirmations in front of a mirror. I don’t know why I’m scared to do that but I want to do that. Thank you again. 🙂
Rosie, I agree that the mirror affirmations sound like a great idea. I too feel scared by mirrors.
I can only look at myself for as long as it takes to do hair and make-up, and then its focusing on the job and not on me. I’ve even noticed I tend to keep one eye closed to restrict the view.
Perhaps we all have different reasons for this mirror phobia, and I’d love to hear some insights from others here, but I’m guessing its to do with self acceptance and shame?
Funny about mirrors. Years ago I bought a little mirror that has “I Love Me” etched in it, and I had the hardest time deciding where to hang that mirror. I hung it on the inside of my bathroom closet door…so I only see it when I get some supplies out of the closet. I have to tell myself to look in it.
Recently I received 3 credit-card-like cards that say “I Love You”, some marketing thing. Just a few weeks ago I made a point of putting them on mirrors that I use regularly. I also posted two “Why Settle For Less?” postcards that were also some marketing mailer thing, but I am using it for my self.
Interesting that it is hard to do those things for ourselves. Seems weird, new-agey.
Elgie that’s priceless – marketing people all over the world must be reeling in their seats at you subverting their deeply caring thoughtful expensive ad campaigns for your free real caring and loving purposes. I love it.
You’re welcome, Rosie. It has worked very well for me. Like you, it was very hard for me at first. Now I have no problem with it. There is something about saying something positive/affirming to yourself while looking yourself in the eyes that is very powerful.
And I think this is what meditation is about to; to clear your mind for a few minutes a day. I can feel myself compulsively on the internet reading garbage because i dont want to sit by myself for even 10 minutes to just process anything. I am also avoiding doing anything significant with my off time – as in reading something worthwhile because its usually emotionally overwhelming and I dont want to deal with it.
We’re delaying that moment where things will make more sense by avoiding these things!!! But at least we are here thinking about them. I think a lot of people are just suffering in total confusion. At least I feel like I know something about myself and my life and life in general now. It doesnt mean I dont feel down etc., but I’ve learnt slowly not to get serious about small things and so on. Now if I could more appreciate life 🙂
It’s mirroring. It how babies learn to talk, walk etc…
Exactly! We are mirroring love and acceptance to ourselves. Something that may or may not have been done fully for us as babies/children. I can say “I love you, I really do” to myself in the mirror and mean it now!! It’s amazing how something so simple (maybe not easy at first, but simple) can be so effective.
Brilliant and Insightful post makes so much sense in terms of what have been through and continuing to go through to lesser degree everyday. I was very guilty of over compensating and him very guilty of enjoying the fringe benefits. I will learn from this.
Thanks @colly and @lalamwah,
I am doing alright but still pretty up and down. I was really good last week when on vacation, now back to reality and dealing with grief still I guess. I’ll be really happy when I’m farther from this. I don’t want to be a sad person! I’m looking for a new job still. Nothing’s come up yet but I have my feelers out. Some days are easier than others. Today is kind of a sad day but I’ve had some really good ones too. I wish I could wave a magic wand and get a new job and get over this
Just met the guy I was supposed to meet 3 months ago, what a bust, turned out to be an immature, somewhat narcissistic boy. I feel sad again. I don’t know why, but I just can’t seem to go out and try to meet men, it makes me so sad when they turn out to be frogs. Same thing happened at a singles event, a guy even tried to have a fight with me.
I think I may be forced to stop going out to meet men anymore, I mean it actually is affecting me badly. I just read one of Nat’s articles on blame and I can see how I blame myself somehow when these men turn out to be duds, again and again. It’s really affecting my self esteem.
I have to let go, I can’t even do the online thing anymore, I’ve had several men be upset because I just didn’t get back to them in what they deem appropriate time. I just can’t do it anymore. I am afraid to let go for good, what if I never date again? What if I never go out with another man?
It scares me, but I am so sick and tired of it. I just can’t look at another inappropriate male, no matter how attractive. It makes me angry and depressed. I’m also finding myself grieving the guys that didn’t work, including the last Long distance one that I never even met! I feel sentenced to singlehood and it makes me very sad and ripped off in life.
I understand @whatever the feelings of loneliness. I get out far less than most people that date and I still meet duds, ACs, narcs and EUs. I think though that by not dating (I am not online dating, I dont go out with people unless I feel there is really something there, and I have been single for huge chunks of my life etc) I have spared myself some confusion and pain of finding-the-duds. I am also somewhat over protecting myself and hiding out, but its okay – I value my mental health.
My friends that are online have told me about going out with the most phenomenally awful sounding dudes – the thing is, most of them sounded awful on paper, so my friends knew what was coming. AND my friends went out with them more than once. This is probably what is making the men feel so entitled too – women far more accomplished and mature than them are giving them the time of day. But for my friends, they KNOW they will not long term date this guy, so why go out? i think being more picky is important so that you dont end up with fools that will only make your self-esteem worse. You’ll think ‘whoa, even this fool of a man isn’t interested in me, I must be awful, my life is over’.
By all means take a hiatus from dating, but especially from dating duds – I have met some fun guys in the last few years, and I havent dated much at all. They were fun guys, buddies, not dating material in most cases. I found a good group which is big enough and although there have been some vibes and silliness from some of the single guys (and the ex-EU was and is in this group), they continue to be my ‘friends’ or at least fun people to hang out with that would also help me out in a jam (not the ex-EU!! I stay away from him). The guys that are attached are nice, no vibes, and I like hanging out with them – their partners are great so no weirdness.
Guys are fun. Look for fun guys, they’re out there, not to date in the first instance. Just because.
Think about it this way – if you never date another inappropriate guy? What a relief! Its better to be alone than dating duds. You mention grieving a long distance relationship – the grief is real, but we know that LDRs which are purely online are going to cause grief. So this is another case where you’re settling for less. Life is not about dating. Life is about life. If you’re happy with everything else in your life, then the dating won’t get you down as much. If you aren’t yet happy with other things (friends, family, work, health, spiritual life, travel, mind improvement) then thats somewhere to start. For itself. I’m happy today, the sun is out, the coffee is great. I think we’re all holding ourselves back from living as we would like to, living fully, with total trust in ourselves and a healthy dose of skepticism about others.
Suki
Thank you for your words of wisdom. I do need to have more fun, I really miss the fun I had with guys that I had gone out with in the past even if the relship didn’t last. I like the idea of groups. I will look into that more.
Ah the what if question? The what if I never have another partner again so long as I live question….. Badly paraphrasing from either Ethelreda or Tinkerbell/Serene I can’t remember which, they are both so great…. but………… face it up.
Face up to your worst worst nightmare, whatever.
What if you never, ever have another relationship again? What are you going to do with yourself and your life? These questions
– made me realise I want to live in an creative eco own home with others and put a plan together to get that started for my old age
– made me go out and find a night course – it took four different courses to find the right one where I felt comfortable with the people and what I was doing and I want to repeatedly go back again and again
– made me work out what other things I am interested in and chase all of them, whether in groups or on my own
And?
Now I don’t even notice I am not with some one because I have loads of people around me from all different backgrounds and I am busy enjoying myself focusing on myself not on another person to bring me joy and happiness.
Strangely even in the weirdest most remote places + times on my own – I have noticed – men are being drawn to me! and it is actually increasingly quite difficult to avoid them.
Whatever work out what YOU like doing and do it – forget about them. They are not worth a hair on your head.
Onna
can you explain this eco home you want to live in with others, how do you go about doing that? I do need to think about my living situation if I will be alone.
I have been doing most of the other things. I have also been trying to secure full time continuous employment so I have a decent pension, but that has been challenging.
I was going to ask the same thing but was afraid it was too off topic! I actually did a Google search on it afterwards.
Whatever, You sound very disappointed. It’s understandable, you have been thinking about this guy for a while.
I was just reading something that relates to the issue of feeling worse after dating and it made so much sense. It was basically this: Dating is low commitment and high risk. With injured boundaries and wounds we need to heal, we need safety, bonding and consistency to help heal these wounds. These are not things that we will likely find while dating. We end up entrusting ourselves too quickly – because are needs are so intense and then we are devastated when things don’t work out. So we end up more injured than when we went in! It makes total sense.
Better for us to work on healing and setting boundaries outside of dating – before dating. When we are ready, we will not be devastated or set back when things don’t work out while dating.
About a year ago, I stuck my toe briefly back in the dating water. It was awful. I could feel myself starting to slide backwards. It helped me to realize what areas I still needed to work on and that I was definitely not ready to date. I have to say it is a huge relief not giving dating a thought! It has freed up time and mental space to work on me.
In my book, singlehood is pretty great! I’d like to pair up eventually, but I’m happy learning new hobbies (beer making, anyone?) and healing.
veracity
thank you for your words, I need to find joy in singlehood and I would like to know where you read the piece you shared. I feel exactly that way after dating, very wounded and worse than before. It took me half a week to get past the negative feelings I felt after the party. I need to stop dating, literally for my own sanity!
You’re welcome. The book is Boundaries: When To Say Yes, When To Say No, To Take Control Of Your Life. By Dr. Henry Cloud & Dr. John Townsend.
Thanks Veracity, I didn’t think I had an issue with saying no, but clearly I do, definately to myself!
Whatever,
I understand what you’re saying about the online thing. I compiled a list of all the guys I exchanged numbers with over the past six months. Dates were all “one and done” or never happened. And these are the ones I “narrowed down” so less than 10% of who contacted me. Collectively, it’s disturbing. Hope by sharing we can all relate and laugh A LITTLE.
1.Federal Agent: made a big deal of his status and midlife crisis car. Boring.
2. Fender Bender: Porsche driver – “I have a PhD” ugh.
3.Upstate A: 4 hour phone conversation and then disappeared. Yep.
4. Electric Car Adam: he gave me a carnation that he pulled out of his backpack after calling to say he’d be 40 minutes late about 15 min before we were supposed to meet.
5. GM: the Dentist who was actually decent but not right for me.
6. JCM: never met, but he was VERY interested and would text that to me enough to creep me out.
7. Gerry with a G with a phd: referenced a previous relationship and told me the sex was really good. First and last date.
8. PE Jeff: Never met, he picked a day and he disappeared. Weeks later I texted him “Did you mean THIS Tuesday?” no response. He continued to view my online profile.
9. Psyc Mike: never met, married 4x, and had nothing to say but text these phrases: hey, howdy, hi. I started texting his exact phrases back to him.
10. Achey Breaky: weeks after our date he texted me to say he saw me in the grocery store, but didn’t feel comfortable enough to say hi…
11. “Have a Good Night” – who texts this at 4pm? Dismissive.
12. DOA Ed: after date said he wanted to go out again. Disappeared days later mid-text conversation.
13. Take A Hike Mike: never met, said he wanted to, then vanished, like a vampire mid text-conversation.
14. No Eye Contact Jay: seriously could not look at me when speaking. When he did, he talked with his hand over his mouth. Nervous? Idk, but disappeared a few days later.
15. Dinner for One: after a couple drinks declared he needed to leave and cook himself dinner. College professor and narcissist like I’ve never seen! “I won’t kiss someone who eats onions” followed by my response: “I like onions.”
16. Bill: after one lunch date sends a text referencing sleeping together. And has a gf. When I point this out, he declares that buying me lunch ($15 WTF) must not have made a good impression and that I live too far away. Never heard from him again.
17. pizza man – I’ll just text you selfies.
18. Excavator Andrew- volatile personality. We (he) talked once on the phone. I put my mute on and peed during his monologue. Told me about quitting jobs and flipping people off. I shut that down.
19 CNYJ: disappeared via text
20. F’d up Forkey: disappeared via text conversation because he… “got busy with his son.” (teenage) Never met though we had tentative plans that HE initiated. But he would still view my online profile.
21. Happy Lunch: (never met). Several days in a row I’d receive a “happy lunch” text.
22. Catmandu – forgot his wallet so I paid. He then proceeded to take a phone call and make plans with a female acquaintance while we had lunch.
23. soccer coach- we never met… He emailed me weeks later to “apologize” for his disappearing act. Round 2 attempt he said when can you meet. I picked Saturday and he said he’d be out of town. Done.
24. Brady bunch bill: we emailed not texted. Looking for his carol Brady. Seriously? I sent a msg mid day once and later received the reply that he doesn’t respond to personal email during the work day, as he receives ENOUGH work email. Ummm so sorry! (dick). He disappeared a few days later after asking, and me politely responding about my day.
25. Busiest most important guy in the world: gave me his full name, phone number, and told me too look him up on Facebook. We texted for one day. I asked about him and he assured me that his online profile summed him up. I asked if there was anything about me he wanted to know and he replied that he was really busy with work. Didn’t even ask my name. Yep. And disappeared.
Strike 25. I’m out.
Say Something – I am besides myself! – Would you like to join my pottery class?
At least you’ll have something you can rely on being around after all your effort (unless you want to give it away of course!).
Thanks for making me even more horrified of internet dating.
Good heavens, Say Something! You have far more fortitude than I do – how did you ever last through 25 of these debacles?? I would have folded after Gerry with a G. Sorry you had to experience these cretins but thanks for the laugh!
Oona and Wiser,
That’s also how I met BGE (Best Guy Ever), the reason I found BR. But all I can gather is that he is a “nice” passive aggressive manipulative EUM with narcissists qualities. I haven’t slept a night in 10 months. Can I make a pottery voodoo doll?
Couldn’t you almost pee your pants laughing at these dudes. They’re so flaky.
I had one online dude who confessed when we met that he had been married 5 times and had 7 kids. He didn’t want to put that in his profile in case it turned women off. Yeah, flaky.
Funny stuff, Say Something! You gave me a few LOL moments with your List of 25! Loved number 15 – “I like onions”. Hah! Number 22….really? My take-away is that I will only attend cafeteria style eateries on first dates – you do you and I’ll do me! Most of the rest were crumb merchants trying to see how much hoop you are willing to jump through for a “potential relationship”. Amazing.
I think this is a TV show waiting to happen.
You could write a book. Scary and funny! Thanks for the laugh!
I couldn’t take online dating for more than a few months. Never again.
Say Something…
OMG you cracked me up and I have a few extras to add to your list from my own experiences in the last year…..
1. Mr Ballsack: Found out during first & only date that he lived with his ex (yawn) and had an enlarged scrotum. WTF
2. Mr Tantrum: One date and he had a toddler tantrum because I couldn’t meet him the following weekend because I had my son with me. Then had extra tantrum because I didn’t want him to meet my son so early in the piece. Bye
3. Mr Magic: Dated for about a month, no problems, no arguments then pffffffttttt…disappeared like magic…..
4. Mr Needy: Told me he loved me after 2 weeks of dating. Errrrr
5. Mr Personality: One date, hard to hold a conversation with. Clinically depressed after breaking up with wife a few months before. No, just no
6. Mr 50/50: No date just on line chats. But only on the alternative weeks when he had his kids with him. Fuck off
I’m all in for the beer making (actually I did make a delicious pear cider not long ago) and pottery courses. Sign me up ladies, new hobbies are good. I have a litter of pups due (well my dog does 🙂 in May so here’s to hobbies, good times and puppy breath
Have a nice Easter everyone xx
LMAO Kirsten,
Although we’re laughing, there’s also that WTF COMPONENT. Where are the DECENT, AVAILABLE GUYS? Looks like so many of us have followed the well-meaning advice of “put yourself out there”. Ummm, see that list? But the list serves a few purposes: I HAVEN’T crawled under a rock, although I often feel like I’m being crushed by the force of a boulder, I CAN spot WRONG and walk away, I can laugh a little, which I think is what keeps me out from beneath that rock.
Forgot 26. RacerGuy- only exchanged texts. Thought maybe we could meet during lunch break. Duh, maybe if you’d asked me anything, you’d know I don’t work in the same TOWN as you. 30 minutes away might not be a convenient time to meet during the work day. And never call me “little girl” again. You don’t EVEN KNOW ME!
Funny that I STILL do not feel ANGER toward BGE, the EU guy who inspired me to find BR. I have only been angry with myself. I look at this list and wonder how I was immediately replaced, when it’s impossible for me 10 months later.
Well, online dating particularly appeals to men with the baseball card mindset about dating – play with them then trade them in for a different card – so the men are moving on easily because they have no emotional investment and no desire for the “forever after” outcome.
Most men in your examples seemed to be trying to fill the time slot that fit their roster – Karen at 2PM Tuesday’s, Dawn every 3rd Saturday…Oooh, I have room for a nooner, who can I get for that?
Men settle down when they make up their mind’s to do so because it is in their best interest. But online dating is the candy store for most men, and I don’t think there are a lot of settling down types on online dating sites. Online dating is about fantasy fulfillment for both sexes, I believe. We want to roll the dice and get that handsome guy or that trophy gal.
Yes Elgie,
So it seems. It’s hard to meet a single available guy ANYWHERE. My friend’s are all married. Sometimes it just hurts being the third, fifth, seventh, ninth wheel, yet I try to stay involved. Often when I’m the only “not part of a couple” most talk is couple-activity related. And sometimes too much is too much. And no, they don’t know any decent single guys. More like, well… He’s an alcoholic, or he’s a racist, or he and his wife are going thru a divorce so he just needs sex. Thanks friends 🙁
I am fairly involved in activities, but again many couples and in 5-6 years not one possible to date. I THOUGHT, well at least online we can see who is single. I had no idea what damage would be waiting for me. I’m only looking for ONE. And after “putting it out there” who knew what mind f-ery was even possible. I feel like my time is being wasted. I am so not a piece of stale candy. One of my friends has suggested that I’d be more desirable if my status was “still married” like employers find currently working candidates more appealing than unemployed. Or maybe I should wear more makeup. Or talk sex. Or suppress any political opinion. But isn’t this how we end up overcompensating by not being who we are? I don’t WANT to be someone else, yet like many others, I question that there must be something fundamentally wrong with me because I AM the common denominator. Just no idea what “it” might be. Sometimes I think I’m TOO self-aware.
Say Something, your list is hilarious and pretty much exactly what I’ve been dealing with for 3 years — although I refuse to give anyone my cell number, so at least I don’t have to go through the insane texting game. The weirdest thing about dating for me is the guys who totally future fake and then disappear. It’s just beyond bizarre. It would never occur to me to badger someone into saying yes to another date only to disappear. Apparently they just need the validation.
Say Something
I could have written every single word you wrote. I have found dating to be very damaging and that’s why I have decided to stop it. Stop going online, stop going with men who look good on paper.
The last guy I met that I mentioned earlier is handsome and successful, but he is an arrogant, dismissive and immature boy, a 50 year old boy!
He was the last straw that broke me, I just can’t date right now and if I do, the guy has to really show me that he is into me as a person…not luke warm or only after sex.
It’s hard to know sometimes because these guys can be tricky and all they want is sex for a while and have no intention of building a life with you.
Most of them have just come out of ‘that’ life and do not intend to enter again. I think they want us to chase them and that guy is Not the one for us.
Elgie
Totally agree with the baseball card theory. Mr Needy and Mr Personality were not from on line dating, these sweethearts were blind dates set up by friends. Again….WTF? LOL
Love this! And where can I put “Im so hot, women have hurt me and used me for sex” dude? Yup. Went on a date with one of these after 2 weeks of texting (bit of future faking but some cute, nice chats too, always told him I was looking for something serious). He spent the date telling me about:
– how the other girl he is dating is playing games and he wants to as well
– some hot woman who walked past his house while he was gardening
– how being an academic means he gets to have the uni students easily (WHHHAAT??!)
– “Im so hot women use me for sex and leave me hurt booboo”
– wont have sex for 10-12 months until he knows the woman likes him for who he is (Puuuhleze! I just laughed and told him I dont believe this one bit)
– “Oh you were the one who has no siblings..thought it was the other girl” (not sure if this was meant to be funny?)
– been single for 4 months, is not looking for sex and wants to take time finding someone (but wont spend time getting to know someone)
– asked very little about me (and I have a very interesting life and personality)
– lets do something in your suburb next time
– (thankfully other interesting things about the world and his life)
Absolutely did my head in and really disappointed me. Thankfully Ive been reading BR for years and flags went up all over the place. I did wonder if it was me and if his song was specifically for me(but I know that they dont sing a different song each time). I dont know if he was trying to tell me he doesnt like me by doing all this (how immature and rude)or hes just telling me that I need to proceed at my own peril.
How sad that this happened on my return to dating (online). I feel sad (Im angry that Im disappointed with THIS but I had some hopes, I suppose)but obviously he’s revealed to me who he really is. He is well-travelled, well-educated but what absolute mind-f*ery!
He sounds like a combo on my above list of 7: Gerry with a G and 15: Dinner for One. Both arrogant, narcissistic college professors. They didn’t even have to cover up. Never saw either one again.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart for this post Nathalie. I really needed to hear it to make me realise that I don’t have to carry on overcompensating for my EUM. I have found the strength to finally end things – after the last 6 months of him gradually cooling off after relentlessly pursuing me for the first 4 months. I so wish I’d found this site sooner but I’m grateful that it’s made me see the truth and given me the courage to end what I now realise was a relationship only in the sense of me being a permanent booty call. I had dipped my toe in the dating waters about a year and a half ago after losing my DH to cancer in 2010. I went on a few disastrous online dates but nothing that serious. Then EUM came along, 10 years younger, in hot pursuit of me (nice guy, good job but oh why didn’t I spot that he was still living at home aged 30??) and I felt flattered, excited and totally sucked in. Fun times ensued, great dates, weekends away. A few months of this, but then I started to feel like his guilty secret – no mention of where we stood, hadn’t met his friends, he hadn’t met my kids etc. He told me he needed time and didn’t know if he could handle a full-on relationship. I realise now that I totally overcompensated for his lameness – he gave me just enough crumbs to sustain my hope that this would one day eventually work out – future faking even to the point of saying that he was going to move out of his parents and get a place much nearer to me. I should have trusted my intuition that said he was just in it for the sex (I was always good to go) and even though we didn’t have that much in common, I reasoned with myself that he was a sweet guy who would never hurt me. I was happy to overcompensate in the misguided hope that he would appreciate what a great woman he had – never pressured him, understood that he needed time, and making sure his needs were taken care of – all so that he would eventually step up and commit to me. When I realised things were becoming stale between us I gave him an ultimatum and asked him what he really wanted from me. He couldn’t answer and said he didn’t know. I left it 2 weeks then when he still couldn’t give me an answer, I told him it was over. He has respected my wishes for NC (been 3 days) and we ended things in a civil way. I’m devastated that I invested so much on the strength of how hotly he pursued me in the beginning. It’s hard staying strong when part of me just wants to go back to how things were. I guess I’m still overcompensating because even reading this back I realise that I did the right thing, even dodged a bullet and cut myself off from long-term heartbreak. I hope I can be strong enough to take the positives from this encounter, even though part of me wants to scream that I was so stupid to have not seen the signs before.
I suppose the one blessing is that it has brought me to this site and to the many insights that I have been discovering. I can never thank you enough.
One thing that strikes me in our writings is how it seems we always leave it up to the man to decide the course of the relationship. We may feel unsatisfied on the inside, but we continue to go along to get along, until that day we confront the man to ask “where is this going?” It’s like we don’t want to listen to that inner voice that has been shouting “I’m unsatisfied with this!” We want the man to make it better for us. But all along the man has been very happy with the status quo, so when confronted with the “where is this going”, he starts the verbal tap dance. He doesn’t want anything to change! So he dodges and weaves, yet we sit there waiting for him to tell us the time we spent ignoring our inner voice was well spent. We are asking him to ‘please justify my denying what I really want!’
Why can’t we heed our inner voice the FIRST time it cries out? Because we are afraid that there isn’t a better option. And what you BELIEVE is what will more than likely be your truth.
I know a woman who has been married 6 times. She’s married now. She looks like Diane Keaton – today’s Diane Keaton, without the great clothes. She’s wrinkled, wide-hipped, wears glasses, is at least as old as Diane Keaton, yet she always finds a man to marry. Her latest husband she found at a community swing dance – one of those every week events. He’s not rolling in dough, she’s better off financially than he is, but he gives her what she was looking for I guess. They like to sit out in the yard, grill burgers, do a little travelling. It works for her.
I’m just saying that you are what you believe you are. You get what you believe you’ll get. There are a lot of ordinary people just looking for other ordinary people to share their lives with.
“An ordinary couple
Is all we’ll ever be
For all I want of living
Is to keep you close to me.
To laugh and weep together
While time goes on it’s flight,
To kiss you each morning
And to kiss you every night.
We’ll meet our daily problems
And rest when day is done,
Our arms around each other
In the fading sun.
Across the years we’ll ride,
Our arms around each other
Our children by our side
Our arms around each other.”
From “The Sound of Music” by Rogers and Hammerstein
Elgie,
I really blame a lot of how women are conditioned from day one not to ask ANYTHING of a man. We’re not allowed to ask what he wants, how he feels, where is the relationship going, or we’re “pressuring,” “nags,” “desperate,” “clingy,” etc. If you read any dating books (unfortunately I have to read some for work) the “advice” is all along the lines of doing absolutely nothing and letting the guy chase after you. The books are fuzzy on at what point you’re supposed to stop running from him and then what do you do. But goodness knows you are not to initiate an email, ask for a date, tell him you like him, tell him what you expect, or the WORST, do NOT ask him anything about the relationship!
The result is, of course, the man does whatever he wants and the relationship or non-relationship is completely and totally in his hands and women are just passively along for the ride and supposed to feel honored to be so. When we wake up one day or years in pissed off that we’re still Ms. Booty Call or Ms. Fling or Ms. Let’s Not Label It, we’re shocked because we followed all of that wonderful dating advice!
After reading many many posts and purchasing Mr unavailable and the fall back girl…I wrote my ex a letter (unsent) but writing it all down made me feel physically sick at what I actuslly justified. Reading through it I honestly have no idea how I ever thought he cared about me. Obviously from reading the book I know how he worked it and got me to think that but still!!!! I clearly have a lot of work to do on myself and it’s still very early days for me (3 days NC)
I’ve put the letter below in case anyone has gone through similar
‘You unblock me on whatsapp only when you’re drunk
You contact me only when you’re drunk
You initiate conversations about the past, us, how you feel about me etc but again only when you’re drunk generally every other month or so.
You lie about getting or being with someone else. Pretend you don’t like them much, dismiss it as nothing but it’s a lie.
You make out that the only reason nothing has happened with us is because of first distance and then you not wanting a relationship as not ready, issues etc or say we aren’t compatible.
The above is a lie as you’re chasing or involved with other girls and quite clearly want more with them then you do me.
The above is obvious because you only bother with me when you want sex I.e when you’re drunk.
You’ve gradually over the year and a half cut most contact and months go by before I hear from you…and again now only when you’re drunk.
You’ve reduced me from the person you wanted to be with, to the person you had feelings for, to just sex and now finally to the drunken booty call
You make apologies for the way you treat me, things you’ve said etc only when you’re drunk
You tell me you care about me only when you’re drunk
You act really nice and caring to get me into bed.
Afterwards you treat me like absolute nothing
When I complain after of this you say, you knew this was how it was etc, it’s your fault for being easy etc
But you forget that prior you were the one sweet talking me into forgiving you, insinuating that you cared more than you do
You are actively getting with other girls. When they reject you in any way you contact me when drunk for an ego boost
You use the feelings I have for you to get what you want from me
You don’t care about my feelings, my life or any upsets that I have
Your answer to everything is that you have problems, you’re unhappy, you don’t know what you want
Or
You blame me and say I’m crazy, nasty, negative, immature etc
Most of all….you use me and make me feel like absolutely nothing once you’ve gotten what you want.
You have ruined my trust for anyone.
You belittle any emotions I have about us or the situation
You make out that I’m crazy or needy for wanting more than you ever give
You don’t want me anymore in any way except as your back up girl ego boost or a drunk fuck
You have finally broken me and made me feel lower than I have ever felt because you lie and pretend and make me trust you again. every single time I fall for it.
From now on…I will never ever give you the chance to use or manipulate me again. You have had many many chances to treat me with respect because I deserve it. If you don’t see that then that is your loss. I tried for so long so many times to be there for you, understand and try and help with your issues. But you threw it back in my face time and time again. The reason you did this is because you feel nothing for me. I am nothing more than your drunken booty call because you know I’ve been weak and fall for whatever lies you tell me.
I really did care about you. Stupid of me I know. And because I try and see good in people I gave you far more chances than you ever deserved. No more! You have lost any chance of being in my life in any way whatsoever. I don’t want your pathetic fake attempt at friendship that you offer. I don’t want your lies. I don’t want your drunken declarations of love and I won’t ever ever reduce myself to being your drunken booty call again. I deserve so much better than that. I’m a good person. I’m not easy or desperate. I just stupidly carried on caring about someone who’s very nasty and a user for far too long.
After a year and a half of this, you’ve pushed me too far. And in your stupidly fucked up brain you’ll be thinking, yeah yeah she’s said all this before. She’ll come running if I tell her I care and give her some attention.
Well no. Not anymore.
You’ve hurt me once too often.
Because I am a better person than you, I don’t wish you any bad. Maybe someone you meet will be the person you care for enough to be with and treat properly.
Think it’s safe to say that person is never going to be me.
Goodbye and good luck’
Jen,
Hope you are on the road to peace. Saying goodbye is hard. Really meaning it is harder.
Jen,
“Maybe someone you meet will be the person you care for enough to be with and treat properly.”
That won’t happen until he learns to love himself. Anyone who can only be remotely emotionally available when he’s drunk clearly has many issues and none of them have anything to do with you. Work on yourself and stop trying to fix him; he’s his own problem!
I have a relationship in my life that I’ve allowed to stay unbalanced out of fear and guilt. Whenever I set a limit, this person will try to change my mind, usually first through ‘soft’ manipulation, but if that doesn’t work they go for the aggressive technique. I had (have) a tendency to believe that I was being selfish – they made sure to point out how unreasonable I was being. Often saying so and so doesn’t do that, or so and so would do it/does it…another words I’m wrong.
They have often done and said things to undermine my self esteem, or get me to doubt myself. They have publicly shamed me.
I have started setting firmer boundaries with them. I am recognizing my part in it and have decided I will not let it continue. My default reaction was that of a helpless, defenseless child. I’m not a child anymore. And this person is not more important than me; they don’t matter more.
It feels so scary and unfamiliar but it’s way overdue.
Thank you say something.
I’m going to read the three books over and over until its completely sank into my brain.
At this moment I honestly know I would reject any contact etc with him by ignoring but…I’m the type to let my anger hurt etc fade over time which is when he generally swoops.
Fingers crossed I can resist the next time if he does armed with my new found knowledge. So glad I found this site and the books…it’s like waking up to myself and what or how I am.
Now just to start the long process of addressing this and hopefully changing my thoughts and actions.
Good luck to you all in the same boat 🙂
This website has been a huge help to me the past few months. My boyfriend of 3 years broke up with me through text message over the holidays. We lived together and I had moved across the country to be with him. He didn’t even have the decency to tell me to my face (even after the fact), and he already had another girl lined up on the side. The worst part for me was that I had my suspicions about this girl, but he convinced me that it was my insecurities and he got me to doubt myself.
I know that he was not good for me, I have kept no contact since I moved out of our apartment 2 months ago. It still hurts that I have not heard from him, even though I have no desire to have him back. I realize now the man I miss is the man I thought (imagined) he was, not who he actually is. I wish I could stop obsessing over the why’s and how’s, I am mainly floored by how I allowed myself to stay in a relationship for this long, with someone who I can now clearly see was toxic for me.
He was a chopper, ass clown, fast forwarder, EUM, and all of the above. When I had first moved across the country to be with him I was very insecure, I had no friends of my own and only had my bike for transportation. However over time I made new friends, got a car, started school, and I can’t help but think this may in part be why he broke up with me. He had told me that I had changed, and that he was not attracted to my newfound confidence…this should have been my CODE RED to run.
I am having a really hard time finding validation within myself and learning to forgive myself. I know I am strong, and most days I am okay, but I am so ready to be done caring and obsessing over him. Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for all of their stories, they help me keep perspective when I am having a bad day.
Chelsea
Did you meet this guy online?
No I did not. We went to school together. we were friends, then friends with benefits off and on for a few years. Finally he agreed to commit to me, but for the longest time he wouldn’t agree to calling me his girlfriend because he “didn’t like labels” this should have been red flag number one. He also blamed all his emotional issues on his ex gf, I don’t think he ever worked through those emotions. I guess I thought us moving in together would move things forward, and that we would grow through yhese tribulations together, instead I should have heeded the warning signs and ran
Oh!! I can feel you! Definitely is a red code when you get better and for them is a no-go… what’s up with that?! Aren´t people supposed to want to be better? Well… no for them.
I can tell that our stories are sooo similiar, so I am confident to tell you that better days are about to come, just keep working on you, come here frequently, especially when you feel in dispair so you can find yourself understood and accompanied, read until you heart is content so you can make sense to all that guy’s BS.
Wish you better days and a good recovery!!
Just right in the spot! I’ve been a constant follower of this blog since more than 2 year ago after THE break up and it’s been helping me all the way. This is the first time that I am brave enough to comment and is of course because I can not handle it anymore by myself.
I have learned so much from this site after I was left dumbfounded and hurt just to find out that I was with an EUM that did everything in the Assclown book but beat me up, and I was in chaos when I “ruined the best thing that ever happened to me”.
Only after I read carefully this website I discovered many people going through the same as me with the same kind of feeling of disbelief and bewilderment, learned that I wasn’t crazy (the best feeling of the world) and that it was just me trying to get a proper relationship from a source that would never allowed it to happen.
The thing is after all this years and even after I worked on me and achieved to get all the dreams I dropped for the EUM and have a wonderful life without him, became everything I always wanted (never going to happen with him by my side) and I am still having this “failure” feeling. I find myself blaming me and beating myself up for the past, especially when I try to move on only to find plenty of Assclowns around that make it difficult to even dream to meet a proper guy, and everybody else seems to being able to have happiness. In a figurative way since most of them are not really happy and just merely enduring each other for company and not being alone, and I know that I want better so…
Anyway I can’t stand it anymore since I alread had a conversation with myself and I understood that I only did the best I could with the information I had at the moment, that my self-esteem was not in the best form and that actually I am in a better place and, even if it wasn´t his intention, I became a better me because of this and still feel depressed for being left in that way and he can still be happy with no consecuences (something that I don’t really know since I have had no contact since one month after the breakup and never broke it ever since, so is just my assumption)and then it must be me, something really bad with me since all of these people can get it and I can’t…
I tried to talk with my friends but I feel like a dead end since they don’t quite understand so I have to turn now to people who knows what are these feelings about and how to get over it. It always calm me down coming to this blog, read the new posts that always hit the mark and read the comments of others that show me that I am not alone and that I can also go through it…
I joined baggage reclaim over 3 years ago. I just want to get back in touch today and say thank you so much because I have recently faced an issue with an EUM and I am soooo proud of myself for how I have handled it. I feel I have learnt so much and come such a long way and this would not have been possible without baggage reclaim. I now know that I matter and am worthy and should not accept poor behaviour regardless of what difficulties someone else has been through. Thank you thank you thank you. And for others starting out on this journey of self discovery, good luck, stick with BR and take the self esteem class I can’t recommend it enough. Thank you x