Let me explain: I had a friend who asked a guy out by getting his number and sending him a text message inviting him for coffee. The guy was a bit shy to ask her out himself. He felt flattered and went out with her. They are in a great, respectful relationship.
I, on the other hand, don’t usually chase after a guy or go up to a guy first, but one day I had seen this new guy I had wanted to meet and stood with some of his friends (who I also know) chatting. He wasn’t there at the time; but when he came back to where his friends where, he stood next to me and after about five minutes, introduced himself to me, and we had a really great conversation.
He left unexpectedly (unbeknownst to me at the time, a girl he had been seeing saw us talking and got upset) and told his friend to say goodbye to me. I happened to see him two weeks later, out one night, when he walked by and I called out his name, and he ended spending the night with me and my friend.
Anyway, to cut a long story short, he asked for my number and phoned me to go out to dinner. It wasn’t until the 3rd date, that he said to me that I had “strategically placed†myself’ next to him that first night (I felt like saying, ‘you were the one who asked me out!’) and I replied, ‘well you’re the one who spoke to me first, you didn’t have to’. And he replied that he didn’t want to be rude. Needless to say, that once I stopped seeing him, he’s had no difficulty being rude to me (avoiding me; and walking past me without saying hello).
He obviously liked the attention I had given him – and my interest was a great ego boost for him but I just feel like I was punished for showing that I wanted to meet him and have a chat.
So my question is, some guys don’t feel confident enough asking you out unless you show that you are interested so as to avoid rejection. But how much interest should you show? Did I just come across an arrogant type?’ I’ve always believed that if a guy really thinks you’re worth it, he’ll make the first move.
NML says: In an ideal world, it really shouldn’t matter who asks who out, after all, it’s the 21st century and women are supposed to be empowered enough to make a move. But unfortunately, for some men out there, it’s still like being on planet of the apes…
It is literally like a national lottery when it comes to how men will react to being asked out, especially when you really don’t know them. Ego, much like a lot of the things that bug us about men, is at the heart of why asking a man out will give you a big black mark. We’re supposed to be in an era of new men but actually, there are a lot of wolves in sheep’s clothing wondering around out there and when you ask them out, appear too keen (ie interested…), they feel like you’re removing their nuts and that something must be wrong with you if you won’t wait for a guy to do the work.
If you are around a man who feels threatened by this behaviour or just doesn’t like it, then no matter what you do, you are doomed. But like a lot of things about dating, it’s about taking a chance. He could do the chasing and the asking and it could all still work out badly by the third date.
In this particular situation, the biggest clue to why he has behaved in this manner is that it’s very possible that he is emotionally unavailable. He was dating someone when you first spoke and it looks like there was some drama because they’re no longer dating. Either that or he was dating both of you…
Reading between the lines of this story, it’s actually difficult to gauge how interested he really was. Admittedly, you did do most of the running and him introducing himself, the subsequent conversation, and him saying goodbye via his friend, they could actually be something of nothing. When you saw him again, you were the one to effectively make the move and at some point, he wrote you off as ‘That girl that’s chasing me who gives me an ego boost but that I don’t really want’.
Once he asked you out on a date though, this is where his behaviour slipped into pathetic. What’s he going to claim next? “Oooh, the boogey man made me do it. Wah, wah, wah…” This guy needs to grow up because unless you left out an important part of this tale of woe, nobody held a gun to his head and forced him to go out with you. You’re not a charity.
That said, what you have found yourself with is a guy who was just passing time. He needs attention from women and you gave it to him in spades. Due to the general traits of a Mr Unavailable or EUM, they like to do the chasing (they blow cold once they ‘get’ you though) and if you take out the fundamental part of their behaviour which allows them to control the relationship, they go limp. Period. So where does that leave you?
Understand your target. Yes your friend is loved up with a guy that she asked out but in her case, she had already evaluated that he was very shy. This doesn’t mean that because she’s done it that you run out and do it with every guy.
Showing interest and making a move doesn’t mean that you should show all the interest and do all the moving. You’re not keeping score but you need to recognise when someone is reciprocating your interest. What would have happened if you hadn’t called out to him that night? What would have happened if you had called out to him, said hello, and went your separate ways? If a guy is interested, he will find a way to get in touch with you and in this case, he actually moves in your circle.
Start trying to understand when a guy is interested. Yes there are shy ones out there that you might need to do a little extra work with, but generally, a guy will show you when he’s interested even if he’s shy. Some of it will subtle and some of it will be obvious. Talking to a guy for a few minutes can sometimes just be a conversation. I don’t think that the conversation you had was an indicator of his interest and I think you projected your interest onto him.
Remember that how we see things and how they see things can be very different. I used to make wisecracks and take the p*ss out of some of my dates and it is only with the wonders of hindsight that I recognise that what I thought was wit, humour, and charm could be perceived as rude, arrogant, and sarcastic. I don’t necessarily think he saw your behaviour as arrogant but reading between the lines, I do think he realised that you were going to show him interest regardless, and this may have made him wary. It sounds a bit full on.
Slow your roll. Step back a little to gain some objectivity. You let your interest in him overtake everything and he probably displayed some obvious signs that he might not be becoming your boyfriend. I think that because you were so caught up in the whole thing of asking him out, you let this cloud everything. Whilst I recognise that most women still don’t ask men out, it doesn’t mean that because you did the chasing that he should be interested. We aren’t always interested when they ask and we take it as our right!
Be careful how you come across. We don’t always like it when a guy is full on, pursuing us, and putting two and two together and getting five.
There is that very common belief that if a guy thinks you’re worth it, he’ll ask you out. Yes, that’s kind of true but it takes a lot more than being asked out for a guy to treat you as a woman of value and it certainly takes more than lust or first glances for someone to determine that you’re worth it. On that basis, the whole issue of who asks who out is all rather redundant, but it will remain nonetheless because some men are still wired like it’s 1959.
On the flipside, if you did the asking but you hold firm to this belief, then you are always going to be fighting to feel that you’re ‘worth it’.
At the end of the day, both men and women need to learn how to gauge situations correctly when asking people out or doing the chasing. Otherwise, we’ll end up chasing people that don’t actually want to be caught.
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Canada, one issue with whoever makes the first move is character and reputation, particularly loyalty. Who wants a relationship with a fast mover? Guys seem to make out better than gals with this one – too many women fancy the excitement and glib lines of a ‘ladies man’ (i.e. predator) and overlook the fact that the schmuck has invested his identity in a life skill – attracting partners. People find life skills and vices difficult to abandon. And they *don’t* change to suit someone else.
There are also fast moving women. The fast movers, party girls (i.e. predators) generally have little trouble picking up *some* kind of companion, especially if they aren’t too discerning – they often hang out with similarly skilled guys with similar character and objectives. The fast moving women burn lots of guys on the trail of wreckage they leave behind them. Not a lot of gender differences here. So the fast movers don’t worry about ‘Who should make the first move.’
Should the woman make the first move? To me, this question has two parts. The first part, is that a good guy (good character) is seldom on the prowl – he isn’t ‘active’ or looking, and he cares about who he spends his time with. The other part is that you don’t want to create an impression of a fast mover. You want to be perceived as a person of good character – honest, disciplined, loyal, a good co-parent prospect.
And probably both of you are unsure about how dating should work – since most of what we see on TV and in movies and in romance novels is about what the fast movers do. This is the biggest conundrum with assuming “I’ve always believed that if a guy really thinks you’re worth it, he’ll make the first move.” If he isn’t looking for anyone, or doesn’t know how to make a good impression on you .. Assumptions bite everyone. I would expect only the fast movers to *always* be on the prowl for fresh meat, I mean to meet new girls, and to also have the glib lines and suave moves ready.
You mentioned that the guy you met through friends commented about how you ‘placed’ yourself to meet him. I think you could have had a better, more honest reply than, “well you’re the one who spoke to me first, you didn’t have to.” This feels kind of confrontational, or even deceptive. He noticed you made a move to meet him – the correct answer should have been, “Yes, I wanted to meet you.” You may have made him wonder about your honesty. It might not have been an issue with what his intentions were or were not.
What to do? I am guessing, none of this has happened to me. But ..
Fall back on old-fashi0ned values. Stick to chaperoned activities or double dates or group things where there is no implication of an intimate encounter or intimate moments. Invite him to the company picnic, bowling, a birthday party. Meeting the guy through frends is great – you had a good opening. Speak to him and smile at him as if he were a valued friend. Keep this cordial and casual, *not to play games*, but because you need to know what his character is like. And it takes time, and friends, to confirm a good character.
If, later, you are convinced he is an honorable person, *talk* about what you want. There are all kinds of Cosmo articles and books about how to imply you want to make the relationship more intimate. Instead, be honest. As Alan Rickman put it in ‘Love Actually’, “Invite him out for coffee and after 20 minutes casually drop into the conversation the fact that you want to have lots of sex and babies.” Just as tough a task as I can imagine, but by that time, he should be a friend that has your trust and respect.
If he lets sex lure him into a relationship – that implies some other woman could also lure him, later. Get to know him, learn if he is someone worthy of respect. Dress appropriate to the activity, but keep it modest. Again, if it takes a special perfume, a vast amount of cleavage, provocative lingerie – millions of women can compete at that level. And thousands of fast movers can do it better.
And if you can’t figure out a way to ask him to go bowling with friends, drop him a card.
ok well im not going to bash anyone’s comments because this is based on opinion so here goes. The question is” Do men like it when women make the first move? And how much interest should I show?”
and the answer would be yes a lot of guys love it when the girls make the first move. now this is why i think they do. the main topic on most guys minds are girls right? if it isn’t girls first it’s has to come close to money. For some guys the amount of interest u show isn’t actually based on what u do to show it some guys maintain their immaturity and just by u sitting next to them means u showed not only can u put up with them but you can bet they think you like them as well.
just because you talk to someone doesn’t mean you like them or showing any interest. we all get one first impression and based on that u can determine if u like someone or not but thats the problem u cant just go based on first impression it has been told if you’re worth it you will be asked out and the answer is no you won’t depending on their life situation and based on how they were raised they could be really shy or they could come from a family where the dad and mom never got along causing an everlasting image of relationship problems in their eyes. guys like it when girls ask them out. Girls like it when guys ask them out. Great it still does nothing. its never going to be the same situation twice the advice goes like this just take the time to get to know each other like you didn’t do above and it should work a hell of a lot better than before and yes if you don’t act like trash then the guy your approaching wont think that your a hoe. if it was me and i was approached by an attractive girl just because she took the time to come talk to me i would talk back because one i don’t wanna be rude and two she deserves a response now doesn’t she?? ^_^
Thank you for all the great feedback. You’ve given me a lot to think about.
People who know me would say that I’m not forward or pushy at all. I am actually very respectful and courteous. Yes, I showed I wanted to meet him but I didn’t force myself on him.
Yes, I had called out to him the second time I saw him (he was on his own) but he said ‘what shall we do now’ and chose to stay with me and my friend for the rest of the night. And he held my hand that night too.
For our first date, he wanted to pick me up from my house and met my parents in the process, so he must’ve been flattered by my interest.
He hadn’t mentioned he was seeing a girl before me, until our first date, when I asked him straight out what had happened for him to leave so suddenly. He had been vague about this before.
And yes, I do think he reflects some of the behavioural traits of an EUM; but like Brad K said, I think I have across as someone who plays games. I can see that now and feel embarrassed about that.
He talked to his friends about me and they said that by him picking me up, it meant that he was serious about me, giving my parents the wrong idea and so, after that conversation, he became more and more distant.
I have to also note that during our time together; I didn’t call much (if anything he asked me to call him sometimes) or hound him with messages. I always waited for him to initiate an outing.
The last time I heard from him was via a text message he sent from overseas saying he would talk to me when he got back.
That was a few months ago now, and I haven’t contacted him once since (no emails, sms or phone calls). If he thought I was really infatuated with him, doesn’t that show that I am a woman of self-control and that I respect the fact that he doesn’t want to see me anymore.
I don’t understand though why he feels the need to avoid me when I do see him out (he literally changes spots so as not to run into me). I’ve accepted his decision and left him alone. For someone who was interested in him, don’t I deserve more credit than that?
I think you deserve credit for leaving him alone and accepting his decision that he does not want to be with you and now I wouldn’t give him any time at all in your head best way to do this is to tell yourself hes getting on with his life and living it as he pleases with no thought of you so why let him take up room in your head …. you have obviously learnt from the experience and now its time to move on and stop analysing …… good luck
since it’s over best thing to do is just leave it at that don’t think about this relationship as anything but a learning experience. people act the way they want to because of choice he chose to not want to be around you but also chose not to tell you why either and there isn’t anything wrong with that it’s the way he chose to deal with it. I’m not saying he made the right choice im just saying it’s the one he made ^_^
Canada You probably owe him an apology (it seems unfair, I know). If he is deliberately choosing to go places you don’t then he either doesn’t want to face you (doesn’t look forward to what he thinks will be likely to happen), or he doesn’t think you want to see him.
Drop him a card, or talk to him face to face. Tell you you are sorry he thinks he needs to avoid you. Explain that you respect him, and don’t want to make him think he needs to avoid you. And stop. Be courteous, don’t add anything else.
There are several reasons to do this, none of them to directly make him feel better. The first is that you affected his life in unintended ways, and you need to take responsibility for a bit of that. Smoothing things over will make what happened more acceptable to friends of his and yours, and may set the stage for meeting someone else. You need to hear yourself say the words, that you didn’t intend to make him feel bad.
This isn’t a major thing, but would be a courteous action, would show responsibility and respect. And those are never wasted efforts.
Hi Canada. Your comment puts an interesting slant on things as it appears that things were a bit more complex. It also left me slightly confused!
There has clearly been some game playing going on and I always say to be careful with this because 9 out of 10 times, the recipient sees through your behaviour and questions your integrity. Many of us do it subconsciously but for successful dating, we need to be more conscious about how our actions contribute into a situation.
That said, no matter what embarrassment you feel, there is no hiding away from the comment that he made about not wanting to be rude. This is in conflict with what his friends are saying and to be honest you, here is another lesson learnt. Whilst it is nice to get people’s opinion on things, a lot of what they say is conjecture and hearsay and it shouldn’t be what you use to judge him on. Yes friends can be an indicator of a person, but how many times have we claimed that a friend is crazy about someone when in actual fact they aren’t? How many people complain about bad blind dates that they’ve been set up on by people who profess to know them well? People also project their own view of things and mingle it in with the reality. At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter what his friends said. It’s what he says that counts.
As for not calling him, why did you do this? Often when we do this, it’s either game playing or in response to a signal in his behaviour that makes you think that you need to let him control the pace of things. This is a classic trait in relationships with EUM’s, however, it does appear that after doing the chasing, you blew hot and cold. In the back of your mind, you believe that a man who thinks you’re worthy will do the chasing, so after you ‘nabbed’ him and took over the chase part, you needed him to prove himself. But you sort of set up a trap because he had expectations about your behaviour based on the initial chase and you didn’t follow through with that. It must have been confusing.
To be honest, whilst I agree that you have played games, I still believe that this guy has too and that he has been quite petty about things. If you want to apologise then do but be careful what you’re apologising for as you’re both responsible for your individual actions.
Hey Girl,
In the dating game, no matter what type of chick that you are, you need to allow a guy to chase you. No matter how far we have come in terms of the modern women, a guy will simply not be in the long term attracted to you if you pursue him. Plus it’s really not that fun chasing a guy anyways!
The most that you can do in this situation is to encourage him and let him know that if he so happened to ask you out that you would accept. Basically flirt like crazy around him, but leave it at that. Don’t start trying to call him, randomly bump into him or anything, because that just way too obvious.
Guys love chasing so let them!
With that said, if he still doesn’t notice, then you just might have to face the fact that he just isn’t that into you and move onto the next guy that will give you the attention that you deserve.
All the best =)
Hot Alpha Female
http://www.hotalphafemale.blogspot.com
Hot Alpha Female, I think you overlook one reason the guy wouldn’t respond well – he isn’t looking for a date. His attention and interest may be focused on work, school, video games, whatever. So an interested lady would not only have to make him aware that *she* is interested, but kindle an interest in dating anyone. If he is too content with his life, there is little chance of getting him to date – and try too hard, he will resent the intrusion: you lose his respect, even if you do hit the sack with him. Not good for a long term relationship.
For the guy that isn’t dating at the time, you might try non-intimate social invitations, and avoid flirting until he acts interested in dating. Above all, establish a relationship of honesty, respect for each other and each other’s interests. And don’t hold your breath – he may never be more than a social companion.
Hi Brad,
I see where your coming from. Which is exactly why a girl shouldn’t be chasing a guy or calling him or pursuing him in anyway.
All her job is ..I believe .. to be open and approachable. So that if a guy is interested in her then she can respond. If a guy isnt interested then i spose that he isnt even going to give her any attention which is nothing she can do about it!
Developing a relationship is a two part band after all =)
Hot Alpha Female
http://www.hotalphafemale.blogspot.com
Obviously
Hot Alpha Female, I can see a time when a girl should make her interest known:
– The guy dates occasionally, but no one steady.
– His attention isn’t heavily focused on something in his life – work, home, school, personal crises.
– She knows the guy, has known him for some time.
– He seems like a decent, responsible person.
But I do think flirting (dangling sex in front of him as a lure) and provocative clothes, mannerisms, and speech, would be risky. In the near term, you might get his attention, but you might drive him off, too. In the long term, if you gain his attention with sexy stuff, so can a thousand other girls next week or next year. And if you wave a ‘Sex Here’ flag, he may never take you seriously as a mate prospect or anything but an erotic playmate.
And if you are doing the asking, and he says ‘No’, you get to do what guys do. Figure out if he isn’t interested in the activity you propose (lunch, coffee, dinner, movie, dancing, party, etc.), isn’t interested in being with you, isn’t interested in being asked today or this week, or is just feeling cranky at the moment. Generally by the 10th time you ask, you can be pretty sure it isn’t the time or place that is the problem.
Happy guessing!
Hi Brad,
I see your point where you say you can show your interest in a guy under the right conditions.
Im not saying either that your suppose to come across as some “easy” chick who is ready for a fling at all. Because anyone could be a fling to some guy, but it takes some depth in a person to be able to have a happy and fulfilling relationship with someone.
All i am saying is that your are open to guys that show that they are interested in you. N that really as girls, we should not be so aggressive in the dating game
Hot Alpha Female
http://www.hotalphafemale.blogspot.com
Hot Alpha Female, And I am not talking about being really blatant, either. But often, by today’s standards, ‘accepted’ dress, speech, and mannerism is quite sexually oriented. Like ethnic jokes, it doesn’t matter that you don’t intend to belittle a group of people, or to do something blatantly sexual. Showing cleavage, intense cologne, come-on shoes or other clothes implies a sexual context.
I think a girl can be quite forward in approaching a guy, if it is *not* done as part of the dating game. That is, if she keeps her approach as non-sexual, non-relationship oriented as possible.
I doubt the kind of guy you interest with flirting will be the kind to stick around.
I had never heard of come-on shoes! 🙂
I don’t wear or buy them, so I probably don’t have the names down. I have read of ‘f***-me’ pumps or heels. And I know that high heels were invented for one specific purpose. To market a plain Italian girl to the king of France as an alluring bride prospect. Another case of sex sells. Elevated heels tend to straighten posture, emphasize breasts and groin, make legs look more muscular. In short, present an image intended to look more ‘desirable’.
Stilletto heels are warning sign, for me. I may think the wearer attractive, but not a person I might care to know.
I know that every woman wearing heels (of any height) isn’t deluded into thinking her only claim to value as a person is her sexual desirability, that she isn’t a living example of the deceptions and images promoted by Vogue and Cosmo, that she might still have character qualities I would appreciate (discipline, honesty, respect). But I wonder.
I think Brad K is 70 and has what is called a Madonna/Whole complex. Some woman wear heals because they’re short. lol
Please get a grip.
I meant to say Madonna/Whore complex.opps
SMP – you missed my age by 14 years. And sad experience has taught me that women ‘dressed to the nines’ can be quite mercenary, quite ambitious, arrogant, and intent on personal goals rather than respect for themselves and others. I have observed similar self-serving traits among men dressed for picking up chicks. Things haven’t changed that much since High School. The first girls to wear makeup tended to be the most cruel and self-serving.
And that might have been ‘oops’. lol!
Hey,
So who said anything about the fact that if your ambitious you have no respect for yourself?! Its the ones that actually know what they want to do with their lives which are scary to men .. coz your afraid you are going to left in the dust.
So the next girl that comes along, that doesn’t wear high heels, doesn’t take care of herself at all, who is quite and just sits there (silently hoping that someone will approach her) is your kind of girl brad?
Hot Alpha Female
http://www.hotalphafemale.blogspot.com
Hot Alpha Female,
First about ‘ambitious’ – I meant aggressive in pursuit of her goals. Nothing wrong with that – it just doesn’t leave room for close personal bonds. Someone seriously focused on life goals, other than family, has less time or energy to accommodate someone new in their life. Guy or gal, getting to know someone, to court a partner or mate, to form close personal attachments, will take time and effort that would already be strained for the ambitious.
Guy or gal, ‘knowing what they want from life’ must balance with family-type relationships, and making things all come together for everyone at the same time – just look at how many people it doesn’t work for.
I kind of resent the way you describe ‘doesn’t take care of herself at all’ when I mean soap and water, a comb or brush, a toothbrush – basic hygiene – is what a person needs to be healthy. Remember? Probably how your *father* wanted you to prepare for going to middle school.
There is a lot a person can do between vying for the cover of Vogue and ‘who is quiet and just sits there’. One is to be sure to live and work with responsible, respectful people. And to let (married) friends know you are interested in a good partner. Networking works. Sitting there resembles not being available. Normal daily activity lets you notice people, gives you an opportunity to smile, say hello to people that interest you. Like a diet, just stating to friends that you are looking makes it more true for yourself.
I watched Disney’s Mulan the other night. I think a girl like that would be worth considering. Bold, stubborn, respectful, honorable, aggressive. Notice that she manages horse and cart with cannons in addition to the duties that she shares with everyone else.
Maybe Sandra Bullock in ‘While you were Sleeping’. Or Patricia Neal in ‘In Harm’s Way’.
Cosmetic use became widespread after WWII. And it was the divorce rate that increased, not length of marriage. The ‘Summer of Love’ in the 1960’s launched the ‘sexual revolution’ which further trivialized making a conscious choice to select a responsible partner (rather than the best provider, the best co-parent, the best mate). And the number one cause of children going into poverty is divorce, in the US.
The myth that a woman with dreams, with plans will offend men is only partly true. Yes, some men have the fantasy of the Playboy bunny satisfied to serve. But the real issue is whether they still have a capacity to embrace an intimate relationship. Many men aggressively chasing career or other goals fail for the same reasons, lack of interest or respect for their partner’s needs. Partnering an ambitious person requires a lot of sacrifice and a sense of service, which doesn’t suit everyone.
As for me, I don’t have much ambition at all. I would be more interested in a partner, a mate.
Brad,
To a certain extent I understand where you are coming from when you say that ambitious women focus more on their career than on their relationships. In some ways i think that this is only partly true. Being a modern woman is all about balancing career and relationships. As a matter of fact being human is about having a balanced life. I don’t think anyone can be truly happy when there life is only focused on ONE area. Ultimately it leads to an unfulfilling life.
I think that am ambitious woman will not only aim to have a successful career, she aims to have successful relationships, great health and contribute back to the world. She is ambitious in all areas.
People have this myth that you have to choose your career or relationships. What im saying is that you can totally have both. Say you have a chick who is all about relationships. No ambition what so ever. Does not want to move forward in life, but just wants to focus ALL her energies on a happy relationship.
I can guarantee you that relationship wont last because she is an incomplete woman. And being only half a person in a relationship does not equal healthy!
i would say that, you attract people into your life who are like you. If you want an ambitious, independent and loyal partner. Then you are going to have to focus your energies in becoming that yourself.
If you want someone with little ambition, bad manners and no sense of humor .. practice being that kind of person and im sure you’ll find someone just perfect for you. It works both ways I guess.
Hot Alpha Female
http://www.hotalphafemale.blogspot.com
Hot Alpha Female,
But don’t you worry? That a guy looking for a woman with ambition, career goals and great personal drive, isn’t looking for a competent person to have a relationship with? That they want an easy-keeper room mate they don’t have to spend any time or attention on? That they just want someone (decorative) that will take care of themselves?
If you pick such a guy, why would you think that at some point a disinterest in caring for your needs will turn into a caring and nurturing co-parent, or even long-term partner?
In the old days, a woman ‘all about relationship’ would be a co-partner, supporting her husband. And integral part of his social and political life, whether in public office or as blacksmith. They worked together. A woman without individual career ambition needs to pick a mate that will work with her. That kind of relationship will work beautifully.
Vera, in Secret of My Success, tells Brantley, “You don’t ever want to be a Corporate wife” – and yet there are thousands. Corporate wives, pastor’s wives, small business wives, farm wives. Women with no potential for personal advancement, deeply involved in nurturing the family enterprise. Farmers are in about the same boat, little room for ambition. Until WWI maybe 70 percent of Americans were farmers or involved with farming. The experience, the adaptations, the *love* that made our ancestor’s families couldn’t have been all wrong. I think it is how we accommodate ambition that we should be particularly careful.
I worked with a guy in Minneapolis. Steve was pretty quiet, a skilled programmer (1982, a real weenie). At a MinneCon (science fiction convention) one of girls adopted Steve. She married him, cleaned him up, increased his social life. Took care of him. They were both happy as clams.
I look at the near-thugs coming from the local high school – the wrestling and football teams are highly revered, here. Lots of pit bulls, semi-organized dog fights and cage fighting. The bad boys get the quiet, pretty girls. The local women’s shelter is over-subscribed for the level of population. I don’t think your theory of attracting similar people holds up very well. I think a change is needed, one that isn’t funded by Budweiser, Vogue, Victoria’s Secret, and the NFL.
Hi Brad,
Don’t you think that a successful man, who is ambitious and has built up his career or business would want someone who is his equel partner and not some barbie doll wife that cooks and cleans for him. They have maids for that type of thing.
Obviously realtionships involved supporting one another and i know that in most relationships there is always the more dominant one. So are you saying that all women should just be passive and support their men?
If you didnt notice .. my name includes “Alpha Female” so i have difficulty in grasping this concept and agreeing with it.
I think that a relationship will work the best when two people are working towards a common goal. That doesnt mean its the man’s goal, it doesnt mean that its the woman’s .. it means that they came up with that goal TOGETHER and can support eachother in the attainment of that.
“Women with no potential for personal advancement”??!! Your killing me here. Do you mean no personal advancement in career’s? I dont think any human being can not want to perosnally advacne in some way. Its a human NEED for you to be able to GROW.
And who says that men are allowed to have personal advancement and women are not?!!
Wake up to mofer times buddy, smell the roses and all the women who have beaten all their male counterparts to get to the top. There are many successful, ambitious women out there who have extremly happy marriages
Hot Alpha Female
http://www.hotalphafemale.blogspot.com
Hot Alpha Female,
I understand times are changing. Before WWII there were far fewer divorced women struggling to raise their children. Yes, there are successful people, male and female, with exciting careers and great family life. But still most marriages fail.
Look at the great leaders. Very few manage to combine marked success with good personal skills – we pay lots of attention to them, they are so rare.
Also not rare, are those that glow in pride of their family, their company, their nation, without needing to be the one to lead to victory. A bunch of dorky engineers got into management, many long years ago, and demanded idiotic garbage for personal evaluations, including ‘what position do you see yourself in, in five years?’. This crap is evidently taught at Engineering school. Many people, from Librarians to farmers to what used to be called software programmers and small business owners, would be content to be doing the same job, well. Maybe with a bit more class, a shinier set of comfortable, dependable tools.
And I think a man that has built up a successful business or career is at risk. What he is most likely familiar with are subordinates – people that implement instructions, support his plans, and don’t distract things. You suggest he would want an equal – but would that feel, emotionally, to him as a challenger, a rival? He may indeed want a trusted companion, a co-equal – if he has developed his personal relationships and bonds with friends and family all his life. In which case he is less likely to have left finding a companion until the exciting, rewarding parts of his career are over.
Enjoy!
Brad,
So basically you are saying that the successful person in a relationship would want someone more submissive? Or just all men cant stand a women who actually wants success in her life?
I think ultimately what im trying to say is that we want people who are on our “level”. Ive dated people who have extremely supportive of my dreams and ambitions and therefore have strived to go after their own. But at the end of the day its not enough ( for me anyways) to have that. They need to be able to support, challenge and even inspire you a little bit. There is something missing if you don’t have that.
I guess everyone is different and its hard to say that everyone falls under one banner. At the end of the day there are exceptions to the rule, so everything is possible.
I have seen successful women with beta men. They are extremely happy and good on them. That whole ideal doesn’t appeal to me though, so nor do i want to believe it.
Each to their own
Hot Alpha Female
http://www.hotalphafemale.blogspot.com
to go back to the original point: women asking men out. I think an important point was missed here: the guy reacted the way he did because he was a jerk. maybe immature or just arrogant. even if he hadn’t made the comment about her making initial contact, he would have picked an argument about something else. also, if he liked the woman in the first place, he wouldn’t have made the comments he did. this was about personal chemistry between two people, nothing to do with gender relations whatsoever.
This is by no means a “black and white” issue that can be answered easily. Everyone is different, has different tastes, and are attracted to different things. For example, some people love shy people…some don’t! Just be yourself! If you start thinking and acting the way you THINK a guy wants you to act, then you may give that person the wrong first impression of who you really are. That’s not a good way to start things off. If you are assertive and make the first move and he is turned off by it, he is probably not the right one for you anyway. Stop trying to figure out who should “make the first move” and just make the first move! If a guy doesn’t like it, then he’s probably not attracted to you in the first place…move on!…NEXT!