Marie asks: I met a couple five years ago in our cycling club. For the last 3 years, they’ve had some sort of unfair open relationship, although she seems to have her cake and eat it more than he does since he’s a bit of a Mr. Nice Guy and doesn’t have much success with women. During this time he started chasing me, declaring his feelings to me, and his wife tried to push each of us together as well. I always bluntly refused but he still continued to pursue me, and we occasionally had platonic drinks and meals.
Last summer when I was vulnerable and lacking tenderness plus I could see how badly it was going between them (she had recently had a three-ways with guys at the club), I finally gave him a chance, minimising potential impacts on me in order to give him a kick to sort out his life once and for all and to stop always forgiving her and going back to her (I’m a bit of a Florence, and actually real ex-nurse now journalist). I want him to be out of this, without any regard to me. Truly, I hated seeing him doing this to himself.
So I slept with him and against all expectations, since I was not at all physically attracted to him at first, I liked it. It was not passion; it was pure tenderness and I really loved it. We saw each other a few times and he asked to see me more often claiming he was obsessing about this. I told him that I liked him a lot but that I would never share him with his wife and then I took a few steps back.
Six weeks later, he announced that he had finally decided to leave her after 17 years, two kids, and her cheating on him ten years before. Two weeks later, he changed his mind. After having pushed him toward me, she sent me messages advising that I shouldn’t get “too attached to him”, that it was going “too far”, that it was not the deal that she had with him… so I bailed out completely. These two are toxic and I’m glad to be out. I feel overall better, but still, I’m also deeply mad at him and moreover at myself for having let this happen. How can I deal with the fact that I’ll have to see him again at the club and on the board (we were both elected) and that all I want to do is scream at him? Should I leave the club? I work from home 5 days a week and I need this social crowd.
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Marie, Marie, Marie, Marie, Marie! In the words of Oda Mae Brown (‘Ghost’), “Marie, you in danger girl.” From the moment that I saw the words “unfair open relationship”, I knew that you were biased towards him.
You’ve taken one look at her and what you perceive as their relationship and gravitated to him and over-empathised—you’ve put yourself in his imagined shoes and then projected some of your own beliefs and personal experiences including some hidden motivations. You appointed yourself as his saviour and decided to advocate for him with it culminating in you offering your body as a vessel for him to sail away from this woman.
I’ve gotta say, this is one hell of a sacrifice for some guy you met at the cycling club who repeatedly crossed boundaries by ignoring your lack of receptiveness. He was a guy you felt sorry for, or what I should say is that he’s a guy that represents someone else you feel sorry for that you’ve attempted to right the wrongs of the past with—who is that?
What is it from your past that this involvement represents? Where else in your life have you been caught between two people and picked sides?
When you understand that, you will understand your hidden motivations along with the pain, fear and guilt you carry that have surfaced in this involvement and caused you to breach your boundaries in a way that’s left you deeply wounded.
You’ve been in a three-way without you even realising it.
The truth is, it’s none of your business what is going on between this couple. Fair, unfair, wonderful, crap: whatever it is, it’s none of your business. You might not agree with the terms of their agreement or how she rolls but he does.
The cycling club is where they get their rides in more ways than one and what you have been absolutely blinded to in all of this is that this guy is in an open relationship. You seem to be under the misguided impression that she’s in an open relationship and he’s an unwilling participant who is held hostage to it.
You give too much. You hated seeing this guy in this situation without hating seeing you in this situation.
There’s definitely an element of martyrdom: he has either amped up his situation and played on your sympathies in order to gain sympathy which then became a currency he could ‘spend’ on sex with you or, you inadvertently made a martyr out of him in your head and through your actions and choices by exaggerating his discomfort to fit the narrative of what you had essentially already decided.
Either way you’ve been played because my spidey sense tells me that you’re not the first woman caught in the crosshairs of this dysfunctional pair. They even tag-teamed you and instead of picking up the code red alert, you felt even more sympathy. On some level, because you had this narrative worked out where he’s the victim, you’re the rescuer and she’s the villain, when she tried to push you both together, it must have been flattering because he was assumed to be this poor, unwitting man who had no success with the ladies despite being free to do so and now you were effectively being deemed really attractive and suited to him.
When we examine why we get involved in and remain in piggy in the middle situations despite signs that we need to exit and leave them to it, what we see is that despite our very real complaints and hurt over it, we are motivated by what we get out of the role because we need to feel needed (Florence Nightingaling) and we enjoy the attention.
I don’t blame you for being angry with him and I also understand the anger that you’re directing at yourself. It’s the whole knowing deeper inside what was really going on and what you needed to be and do but being too scared to do it and hoping that you could have the fairy tale or that it would at the very least all work itself out without you having to get ‘mean’ about it (read: have some healthy boundaries). You may have felt guilty and disloyal about knocking him back because of whatever and whoever this experience is connected. It’s feeling as if you have let you down and you don’t know how to get that decision back because you can’t turn back time.
You’re angry with him because he’s chosen the villain and this has sparked resentment and poked at old wounds. He’s not letting you be the saviour.
The truth is, he doesn’t want to be ‘free’, there is a hidden payoff to remaining, and this marriage suits his narrative.
Acknowledge what this whole situation was really about. When you do, you will begin healing something enormous from the past that will help you to transform yourself out of this situation. Recognise the journey you have made to this point so that you can understand the beliefs and experiences that made you ripe for this situation. Forgive your younger self for not being able to understand the nuances of adult relationships and for not being able to save whoever it was. It wasn’t your job in the first place—see my post on being over-responsible.
Work through your anger. Therapy, counselling or other forms of support can help with this. As a starting point, begin with Unsent Letters (guide here) which will help you to write out and release those feelings. It will also help you to take responsibility. Yes, this couple are grossly inappropriate but when you acknowledge the story you’ve been telling you and where you had blurred boundaries, you can put healthier emotional, mental and physical boundaries in place that allow you to forgive you so that you can move forward without walls.
It will also give you the opportunity to forgive your younger self including the more recent versions of you, for what she didn’t know and to also identify what it was from the past that revealed itself through this experience. Get cracking on expressing that anger and it will become clearer to you about whether you want to stay in this club. Personally, I would leave. Why would you surround yourself in such negativity energy? Does it serve your highest, most evolved and loving self to step into this environment?
Do you need this social crowd? I work five days a week from home and sure, I’d like to do some more things where I mix with people but I’m not interested in hanging around in any place that’s effectively a swingers or whatever club masquerading as hobby meet-up. The question is, are you? Don’t let your ego convince you that this is the only place you can make friends.
Have you tried to rescue somebody from what you felt was a bad relationship? What would you advise Marie to do?
Each Wednesday, I help a reader to solve a dilemma. To submit a question, please email advicewednesdayAT baggagereclaim.com. If you would prefer your question to be featured on the podcast, drop a line to podcast AT baggagereclaim.com. Keep questions below 200 words. If you are looking to make a big breakthrough in your relationship pattern so that you can be truly open for the relationship you want and deserve, check out The Breakthrough.
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So his wife was keen for you to get together until you actually did, then she acted threatened and possessive? You have to laugh. There is a nasty power game going on between them and you got caught up in it, unfortunately. It is also very much not your problem or your situation to sort out.
You say that you let your guard down during a weak moment when you needed tenderness and genuine affection and for a while you felt you had it with this guy. We’ve all had those moments (I certainly have) and weakened and done something unwise. You can still walk away from this though.
The whole situation with the cycling club sounds unpleasantly incestuous and entangled. Maybe you are best off out of there and meeting new people who are not going to prey on your weaknesses or draw you into drama. It’s not your only potential source of friendship and it’s not a bad thing to walk away – for a year or two at least. Meetup might suggest some other options for clubs or social groups in your area. Of course it’s tempting to stay but it’s the sunk cost fallacy – you’ve been there for ages and it’s as much yours as it is theirs – but it’s not serving you at the moment and it won’t help you heal or give you the clean break you need from this situation.
Great thought! Besides meet up, try a class or a workshops. Not everyone there does these to meet people. At the same time, the one’s who do tend to make themselves known. Classes at the gym and at nonprofits are options. Comedy, art, writing, book clubs. If all else fails, you have a group to spend the duration of the class with even if they end up not extending out.
There are also probably other people who like cycling. If there’s one trustworthy person in this group, ask them to go cycling as a twosome. Or bike on your own and do other things
Oh JAY-sus! Okay — that is a really extreme story with really crazy details but the theme of it is not that unusual.
How many of us have gotten caught up in a story from HIS side and fallen in? To an affair(emotional and/or physical) or “friendship” that is not in our best interests? Ohhh, how his ex wife treated him, ohhh, how his current wife/girlfriend treats him. . .Ohhhh, how much better he would feel if we slept with him…or kept up a “platonic” thing to soothe him or whatever.
Florencing is real, especially for anyone whose boundaries were erased in any way and/or if you happen to be in a “woman’s nurturing profession”(teaching, nursing etc.).
Also, many of us do weird things in social situations — people at a club or on a board or at work or wherever — how well do we really know them, how close are they to us to warrant such emotions and rescuing behaviors? Or does it not really matter because, you know, threesomes, open relationships, fake platonics or whatever else are all the price of admission to a certain social set. You fall in to maintain the status quo — it’s not *really* love, care, trust respect — it’s social posturing.
I had to learn the hard way to give a LOOOONG side-eye at any man who cannot own his side of the road. If he blames someone else for the ills of the relationship, that’s my cue to strap on my trainers and RUN. These divorced guys still raising kids(and therefore wifey calls the shots), these kinda separated guys, these supposedly unhappily married guys — they are EVERYWHERE with their tales of woe (to get the panties).
I’m at an age where I feel like I’ve literally heard everything, sometimes I’ve fallen in, but *then* I got wise, especially when I started hearing the same stuff over and over again — particularly from guys of a certain age. I mean, not everybody has one foot outside a marriage or seemingly committed relationship, but it can seem like it. The most distressing of which is when they say “but I don’t love her.” Really? Then. . . LEAVE!
I think we underestimate just how lazy people are when it comes to change. Especially dramatic, rock-a-the-boat type change. Sure, he may not love her, sure, she’s a pain in his arse or heart — but leaving? Actually pulling up stakes? No, not ever will they do that. Why? Because us being single, we really don’t experience the social benefits of marriage — that’s why they don’t leave. She may not love him, she may not even sleep with him — but WOW! He’s enjoying SOMETHING socially. In SOME social circles, there is even big cache to having a wife AND a girlfriend(or several) at the same time!! Sometimes, the wife is fine with a mistress around — as long as the hubby doesn’t love her or leave!! Rarely do we stop and consider that.
Think about it–how many divorced or bachelor guys are CEO’s? How many are cooking their own meals day in and out? How many REALLY relish the role of “single dad”? Right. And on and on. Marriage and long-term relationships have hidden benefits that we often cannot fathom — and he can’t either, which usually = trouble.
Best wishes to the lady in this story as well as anyone who is wading through something else similarly shady.
JC Well put!
I have tried telling friends about this “social benefits of marriage” business, but it seems like people don’t seem to get it. Unless you are single and have been seeing the hypocrisies of relationship facades and encountered predators or EU men; it’s hard to see that entitlement.
I tried online dating for about 2 years and I can say nothing good comes out of it. I would say 50% of men on these sites are self professed “happily/unhappily married ethical non-monogamist” or “polys”.
The rest of them are either otherwise unavailable or have circumstances that I find not attractive, such as them living in their mom’s basement or chronically under/not employed.
I have a suspicious that large percentage of the poly people online are cheaters. Not that I would get involved in a poly situation; but I have had a number of these men message me and I did a little social experiment. I said that I would be up for it if I could talk to their wives about it. Most of them ghosted as soon as I said that. It’s laughable.
I knew two people who call themselves “ethically non-monogamous”, but it’s a load of crap. Nothing they do is ethical. They use people because they can, and have no regard or respect for them. They are youngish and hot, they think the world is their f**k-ground. It’s all about themselves.
They both read some book about ethical non-monogamy while whey were still married and started screwing around behind their partners back. Needless to say I no longer associate with these people. I simply could not listen to their stories of “conquests” anymore.
I am saddened that so much of dating is conducted online these days. It’s has cultivated this mentality of people being mere “options” of disposable objects. People keeping their options open for better things to come along. Ghosting, trolling, abusive language and flakiness.
I will NOT part-take in this online dating madness; even if it means I will be single for the rest of my life.
I have not dated or asked on a date for 1.5 year now.
It makes me a little sad. Sometimes I would like the ego stroke of being asked out. But I guess this is realty and I need to work with it.
Anita,
Oh yes- so much of what you wrote is my experience as well: multiple online dating fails, 1.5 years dateless. I am still working on accepting my life “as is” even though I don’t like it. It’s a hard sell, convincing myself to be okay with things I fundamentally do not like.
Leave the cycling club, NOW!
Different situation (fact-wise) for me, but (with a year and a half between each fling)
I got involved with two different men at my rowing club, who both turned out to be using gits. Each of these men had pretended to be my *friend* for a year or so before we got involved and it then turned out that they were just using me for sex.
Both times (I don’t learn) I felt the need to stay and stand my ground, but it’s really, really not worth it. Instead of enjoying my hobby, I just had to endure awkward situations and I didn’t enjoy any of it anymore.
I ended up joining a running club instead in the end, and I am advising you to do this sooner rather than later.
Please, please, don’t put yourself through the pointless “it’s my club, too, why should I leave” unhelpful mentality. You’ll just get upset that stuff that used to be fun at this club is now awful because of this guy’s presence. All you are setting yourself up for, if you stay, is getting continually stressed and upset in what should be your fun, carefree, social time.
I can’t imagine that this is the ONLY cycling club near where you live and, if it is, then take up rock-climbing, sailing, triathlon or ANYTHING else which means that you won’t be subjected to this toxic couple when you should be enjoying yourself socially.
It will be crap initially, as you’ll be back to square one, socially (in any new sports club that you join) but trust me when I say that staying in your existing club will never be fun again.
Cut your losses, take the temporary hit to your social life, and start afresh at a different club.
Jeeze, I never thought I’d see the day when someone else had fewer boundaries than l, at my most codependent and people pleasing. My rules are simple. No charity humps. If I’m not attracted, I’m not going to bed with anyone. That a rule I’ve had since before Natalie. Post-Natalie, if they are sleeping with anyone, for any reason, happy or sad, I am not in it. I don’t give a rat’s ass how good their excuse is, I do not share sexual encounters or beds with married, dating, friends with benefits, open relationships, polyamorous…ANYONE who’s hooked up. No fresh DNA on them, period. My life has gotten so peaceful without future fakers, misunderstood phonies or narcissistic tramps. If they want to sleep with me, I should be able to call night or day, be known by their friends, families and kids, and never have to lie or cover for any shadiness on their part. I’m not saying there’s a line outside my door, but when I meet someone, I’ll be ready and so will they.
No charity humps… Hahaha! I almost fell off the sofa laughing, Karen!
Seriously, though – I did that once, and once only. I’d met a guy online (and will also never do that again), and we started chatting on the phone and seemed to really get on well. Unfortunately, he turned it around to phone sex, and I’d never done that before, so I went along (I think I enjoyed the power I *thought* I had). So, when he finally came up to visit me, it was a 3 hour drive for him, and, although I was utterly repulsed by him in the flesh, I felt obliged to sleep with him – because he’d gone to all that trouble to drive up to see me… OMFG – what a nitwit I was!!! As if that wasn’t bad enough, I then didn’t know how to back out of the relationship, and I went and stayed with him for a week (mainly because I loved that area and eventually wanted to move there). So, I guess I was using him too, and ended up just trying to keep my head above water, because I was acting out of control, and had lost myself. Thankfully, his flatmate and I started chatting, and she suggested I might be codependent (as was she), and that was the beginning of my healing. So, in a way, meeting the creep helped me take a healthier path – and it was also the nudge that helped me find Baggage Reclaim, and read Mr Unavailable, etc. etc.
So, you see, there are other people who are (or were) completely boundaryless as well, and you can feel good that your boundaries are healthier than you thought… 😀 I now actually *have* boundaries, and they’re getting stronger each day, thanks to Natalie and others like her who have the info if we want to do the work.
“I was utterly repulsed by him in the flesh, I felt obliged to sleep with him – because he’d gone to all that trouble to drive up to see me…”
@Cindy I’m not casting judgement when I say this but that is genuinely awful. The fact you felt obliged to sleep with someone, that really made me feel sad reading that. I’ve felt similarly in the past, but seeing someone else write it down, makes it seem somewhat worse. I’d hate for a close friend or a family member to feel like someone else was “owed” their body or sex or affections. Awful way to feel.
SmP. – You’re right, it IS an awful way to feel. He was the last person I dated, and that was 2012. In 2011, I was seeing an attached, alcoholic, work-addicted man I knew 35 years previously, when I was just 19. And before that was no-one for a decade… The 2011 guy was my opportunity to work through obsessive love (two books and lots of writing), and the creepy guy was the one I learned that ‘I didn’t need to get sick in order to say no’ through, because I *did* get sick and almost died, because I wasn’t able to say no. You know the song, “What do you get when you kiss a guy? You get enough germs to catch pneumonia…” That was me. He also gave me an STD. Writing this, I find it difficult to comprehend that it was Me acting that way – it’s like I was a different person. I think I was still in a state of grief after losing both of my dogs, and my only sister, through cancer. I really *wasn’t* myself, and it’s taken a lot of work to finally feel like I’m beginning to see who I am, and also what a lovely child I was.
Not according to my father, though – who made me the family scapegoat (and Mum & my sister were complicit in that). Being dependent on him, and feeling powerless, even as an adult, I sought the worst men I could find, so I could work through my father stuff with them, because I was still unable to tell HIM off… Then, finally, a couple of years ago, he just went too far, and I cracked. I replied to his email by telling him exactly what I disliked about his behaviour, and his boundary-crashing. I was calm, but angry, and I was polite, but strong. And I sent it. And then I couldn’t stop shaking, haha!! But I did it. And now I don’t need the replacement guys, because I dealt with my narcissistic father – and I’ve realised that, even in his 80s now, he’s like a little boy who has to have his own way.
Mum’s gone, my sister’s gone, and he is my only family, but I will probably never see him again. We connect through the occasional email, but he’s not allowed to telephone and I won’t phone him. It’s too easy to attack me on the phone, but he wouldn’t risk putting it in writing, because he’s into mind-f*cking and gaslighting, so he has to be able to deny having said it… It makes me laugh how predictable he is, now I’ve read Mr Unavailable & the Fallback Girl…
It’s weird, but even in the depths of despair, I love doing this work so much that I feel excited to find something else that’s been lurking inside me, causing trouble, and the joy and empowerment that come from healing each new thing that arises is like nothing else.
All the best with your own joyous journey…
Hi, Cindy. Just wanted to tell you that when I read your posts I sometimes wonder if I got up and wrote them in my sleep! Ditto on the FOO (family of origin) experiences. Just this week I exercised boundary behavior with my Dad, it caught him off guard, and he’s left me alone but no doubt there will be some future drama. But I’ve been a little off kilter since then…I was glad to not participate in his drama, but I did not feel joy or relief…I get how you can feel shaky.
Also, I stumbled upon a movie that helped me understand some of the dynamics of my upbringing, “Olive Kitteridge”. It is an odd little movie, but I was riveted because I saw myself and my family. I lived with a family of “Olives” and I am the “Henry” character. It helped me let go of wishing things could have been different with my FOO. They am who they am.
Hi Elgie R. – yes it does leave you feeling off kilter, because we’re not used to standing up for ourselves. Do you always stand up for other people who are being bullied? I do – I always have – yet it was too frightening to stand up for myself because of my father.
I’m doing Natalie’s inner critic course at the moment, and I’m a bit off kilter myself. And a little bit down today because I watched The Forger (with John Travolta) last night on DVD and the love his character felt for, and showed, his son was palpable. I just always feel sad when I watch films like that, where there’s a lot of real love and acceptance coming from the parents… I’ll look out for Olive Kitteridge on DVD – I love Frances McDormand in everything she does. The trailer looks good… Thanks for recommending it.
I think I’d better write in my feelings journal and do some work today, though it’s the last thing I feel like doing at the mo… xx
Cindy,
“It’s weird, but even in the depths of despair, I like doing this work so much that I feel excited to find something else that’s been lurking inside me, causing trouble, and the joy and empowerment that come from healing each new thing that arises is like nothing else.”
You are one strong woman.
Sorry you got an std from that ass hat. Been there.
J, thank you for taking the time to say that. Strong or not, it’s nice to feel that someone can see you for who you are, and not for what they’d like you to be. Sorry to hear about your std too 🙁 xxx
LOL! Busting a gut here after reading “No charity humps.”
I felt sorry for some dolt I worked with and listened to the endless tales about his wife’s short-comings. Finally figured out that he was getting humps at home and when he had a sad story about the wife to tell his gal-pals, he was also getting humps from them. He has a job where he moves from city-to-city every three to four years, so one can only imagine the trail-of-tears he inflicts. After carefully watching him in action for a number of years, I finally realized he was a narcissist. Many of the scenarios presented here sound as though they might involve narcissists, as well. If they do, then my advice is to get away from those robotic-entities as fast as you can because even with intense therapy, they are only able to perform at a social level that is barely minimal. They have no soul.
holly Golightly, did we “date” the same guy?
My story is eerily similar to your, including him moving around for his job. He was a software engineer from Argentina. He was also a “robotic-entity”. Uncanny!
Or all they all similar with the same MO?
Karen,
You comment is gold!! I couldn’t stop laughing. From your “Jeeze, I never thought I’d see the day when someone else have fewer boundaries than I, at my most codependent and people pleasing,” to your pre-Natalie rules especially the “charity humps.” Haha! And you still gave a solid advise, just with a dose of laughter! Gosh, I love this site. How i wish there was some annual conference of some sort so we connect faces to words!
Karen
Absolutely spot on!
Loved your comment. It’s really that simple. You have said exactly what I was thinking. I have nothing else to add.
“if they are sleeping with anyone, for any reason, happy or sad, I am not in it. I don’t give a rat’s ass how good their excuse is, I do not share sexual encounters or beds with married, dating, friends with benefits, open relationships, polyamorous…ANYONE who’s hooked up. No fresh DNA on them, period.”
Amen Karen!!
P.S. On the bright side, Marie, the wife sounds like a seahag, and he sounds like a wuss who obeys her every command. Therefore, the only way for you is UP. Run away from these horny nitwits asap. Leave the bike if you need to, but run!!! Losers never rise to your level, they’ll only drag you down to theirs. Go go go!
Karen, I almost fell off my chair at the “seahag” comment! Brought to mind Ursula the Sea Witch in The Little Mermaid – which happens to be my fave film of all time. No jokes. 🙂
I would have to agree with Karen here, once you cross certain boundaries like Marie unwittingly did, it becomes very difficult to regain that element of control and respect from those involved. Marie compromised her standing by entertaining that hen-pecked fool in the first place. It’s best to keep moving forward and never look back. Chalk it up to experience, but don’t beat yourself up for getting caught up in their twisted games.
Wow….this is a real life “Dangerous Liasons”.
In my days with ACMM, I saw myself as being Katherine Hepburn to his Spencer Tracy. Meaning I was the other woman, but an “important” other woman. That’s how I cast myself, and it was PURE FANTASY on my part.
ACMM was playing his tried and true game, I was one of many, and I believe his wife was fully aware of his exploits, and possibly condoned it to a degree. Not in a weak way either..I think she is in charge of that marriage. Kind of like the Hillary to Bill Clinton…you know…stronger together. ACMM is never leaving her.
Anyway…back to Marie….there are political machinations going on here, and social status, and swinging sophisticates…and it is definitely a sordid group. Marie, you were the “new meat”, and they played their usual game with you.
You don’t seem too worse for the wear…but it would help you to read more BR to figure out why you were so ripe for the picking. Also, were you trying to prove something…?…to them?…or yourself?
I would get a different social club. If you stay you’re just setting yourself up to get sucked back into their dysfunction. it’s much easier to make new friends or join a new club than you may think. Good for you for getting out of the situation and standing firm that you wouldn’t share him! You are stronger and smarter than you may give yourself credit for lady.
Whew, thanks for this. I have a very early friendship with a much younger man and I can see Florence Nightingale all over this. Yes, I’m a nurse. Aargh!! See me backing up immediately, tromp, tromp, tromp!!
Bloody hell – get out of there, Marie! I read someone said you were the ‘new meat’ and that was exactly what you were. This situation reminds me of the film, The Hunger, with the vampires preying on fresh meat… It doesn’t end well…
I’m so over men who have a sorry tale to tell about their relationship. My ex brother-in-law used to phone me and talk about my sister, because he knew he’d get sympathy from me. But when he finally met someone else, he asked my sister for a divorce (because the woman in question wouldn’t sleep with him married) and I never heard from this person I thought was my friend – he didn’t need to get his ego stroked by me anymore. And that was all I was, not a friend at all. I learned from that, and, after my sister died a few years later, I felt guilty about my disloyalty in discussing their relationship with my bro-in-law…
No-one outside a relationship knows what is really going on inside that relationship. Sometimes even the people inside the relationship don’t know. Now that I’ve read Mr Unavailable, and have learned what boundaries are, if a man even hints at a problem in his relationship, I change the subject and step back. Even with women I’ve just met who want someone to take their side – I just don’t want to hear about it, as it’s never what it seems.
Marie, I used to be in a swimming club, and the swimming part was so much fun! There was one married guy who was always trying to hit on all the other women, though, and I found him tedious. A woman who he worked with joined our club, and his wife was upset because they’d been having an affair at work, and she was angry that this woman would show herself at the club. But if she hated his behaviour so much, why didn’t she leave him? Good question, hey? But it’s nobody else’s business, and I kept out of it. And that’s what you need to do, too – keep out of it, and yes, leave the club. Surely you’re not that desperate for company that you’d hang out with a bunch of vampires who like to prey on vulnerable women. Rescuers are victims too – remember that the next time you try to *save* someone…
Marie leave the club for goodness sake, I’m sure there’s plenty other gym’s , health spa’s, cycling clubs around!! that club you’re a member of sounds weird to me and you’re worth so much more….I fully agree with Karen they are a horny pair of nitwits!!!
Good Luck 🙂
Hi,
This is Marie. First, thank you Natalie for responding to my story. And thank you all for your kind comments. I love BR for this. Can you imagine that this « relationship » is NOT my epiphany one and therefore not the craziest one? I thought I had learned… And I still led it happened despite I HAD read (and underlined so much every page of it) Mr. Unavailable and the Fallback Girl. I’m not too discouraged. I know it takes time to heal from the past and our patterns… still, I feel like I I must be a bit ill or crazy to lather, rinse, repeat so easily… I guess I wanted to test my boundaries in some way. See if they were stronger since my epiphany relationship. Of course, this story bugged me a lot, but I’m not demolished or truly hurt. I guess I instinctively saw it coming…
Update : this morning, I sent my resignation letter to the board of the cycling club. I feel free-er than ever. Feels really good despite I’m worried of what will be next. This club was tied a lot to my previous and epiphany relationship so it’s the last tie I’m letting go from the past with him, my ex-fiancé… I started some hip-hop class 4 weeks ago, and I love it! So I guess we could say « a new day has come ». But I’m now super suspicious of men and more than anything, of my own weaknesses… My therapist will help me I guess on this.
Natalie, you’re saying something quite interesting about repeating a scheme from the past. I think you’re damn on it and damn right. Let me tell you that quick story : I was 11. In my room, in my bed, with my little 5 years old sister. We are 4 kids and I’m the oldest one. We hear our parents voices strongly arguing in the kitchen. My sister seems afraid. I was too. I get out of the room quietly and listen at what they say. I can’t remember what it was, but I knew it was not nice. So I took a deep breath, ran fast down the stairs from the second floor to the living room, facing the kitchen, and I literally yelled at my parents, crying at the same time : « Why are you fighting like this?! I know one day you’re going to separate so why don’t you do it just now instead of later?! » Surprised to see I was not sleeping and surprised of my intervention, they tried to reassure me with some stuttering voice : « No, no, Marie, we’re never going to split, don’t worry. We’re married and there to stay this way. Please go back to bed! » 7 years later, when I was 18, my father decided it was over between him and my mother. So the roots of « rescuing » are strong in me, as you can tell… Especially when children are involved. I guess this is why I got caught up in this… I was once that kid who didn’t deserve such a crazy relationship between their parents and who got caught up, at 18, in a loyalty conflict for years. And I liked a lot my cycling club couple’ kids… I surely don’t want any other kid on Earth to live what I lived. But I guess I have to accept that my battle must not be their kids battle…
Kriss : yes, I did laugh. They are both in deep shit. But I almost cry when I think about their kids… I know Natalie would call that « over-empathy ». She would be right.
JC : you’re so right. Some women pretend they’re OK with the hubby having a mistress… but as long as he doesn’t have feelings for her. She pushed me to him, than almost threatened me. Yuk.
Karen : yes, I have a problem with boundaries. Trying to solve this. Believe me, it has been worse in my case. And she IS a seahag. She really is. Everybody in the cycling club knows about their « arrangement », and everybody blames her and say « Bouhouhou, poor him ». But I have now no pity for him either. He’s a wuss and he likes to keep things this way. It suits him.
Elgie R. you are damn right. I often told myself this summer that this was Les Liaisons Dangeureuses « live » and that I was some Madame de Tourvel, really… Gosh! What a crazy story when it’s LIVE! And your comment is interesting about « social machinations ». They are such into this! Gosh you should see her Facebook lines sometimes, declaiming her big and unconditionnal love to him! They’re both made of social status and fears, not love for sure!
Thanks again, Natalie. I love this website and listen to your podcasts every morning during my morning walk. I love especially « Why did we break up ». Have a nice day!
Good luck Marie!
Good for you!
Hi, Marie. I just love this BR site too! That is a terrific connection to your past that you uncovered. And you gave me food for thought. Almost every topic that Natalie has written about lately seems to be talking directly to me…and I think that I need to uncover some whys behind some of my lingering self-defeating behaviors…see what childhood scripts I am replaying. Thanks.
Hi Marie – so glad to hear you’ve left the club – a good first step. When I saw this comment, “This club was tied a lot to my previous and epiphany relationship so it’s the last tie I’m letting go from the past with him, my ex-fiancé…” I said, aha – that’s huge!!! It wasn’t about the social aspect at all, but that you couldn’t take the final step and move on from your ex-fiance. Well, you’ve done it now. And it will get easier – baby steps…
I hear you when you say you don’t trust yourself, and I don’t yet either, because I just don’t feel my boundaries are strong enough if I felt really attracted to someone. My last boyfriend was repulsive to me, yet it took me nine months to break up with him – I kept wanting him to break up with me. When I finally did, he was back online, trawling for women, the next day. So creepy! Yet he was also the guy I learned to say “No” through – even though it took catching pneumonia from him, and bacterial vaginosis. I needed to be sick in order to say no, and that I learned from my narcissistic, bullying father, and I hadn’t been able to move out of that pattern.
Good luck to you. We’re all on a journey here, and to me this self-healing, and self-actualisation, is the most important work I’ll ever do. Working through our own suffering, and allowing others to work through theirs, is the way towards Enlightenment. That couple’s children need that experience for their own life’s unfolding, just as you, and I and everyone on this Earth need to be allowed to work our way through our own suffering and experiences. The only true way to save others, is to heal ourselves, and lead by our shining light…
Yes, it was huge indeed. You’re right. I’m a bit minimising it, but this is huge…. And this guy at the cycling club knew my ex-fiancé very well when he was part of it. And he knows what happened between us (among many things, I cancelled my own wedding 2 weeks before happening because it was so wrong between me and the AC and emotionally violent ex…)
Thanks for your kind words, Cindy. I’m as afraid as you to trust a man, now that I clearly see that despite I try to be cautious and have « boudaried self-esteem », I’m always attracting the wrong type, therefore it must be because I’m wrong myself… I know it’s not rationally true, but it feels a lot like it…
You’re right – it’s not true – but it sure does feel a lot like it… I feel like something inside me must’ve been broken and that maybe, despite all the work I’m doing on my inner healing, just maybe I won’t heal… All the king’s horses and all the king’s men, couldn’t put Cindy together again… Anyway, I decided to do Natalie’s inner voice/inner critic online course and it’s really bringing up a lot more that I previously hadn’t been able to see for myself. It’s tough going, but I recommend it.
I’m not going to give up on myself, even if I’ve put relationships on hold for a while. I feel like I need to heal me first, though, but my cousin said I shouldn’t wait until I’m perfect before I get into a relationship… We’re never going to be perfect.
Marie, thank you for your comment and your message to Nat! Your experience illuminated my own in so many ways. And I get it with the learning about boundaries over and over again, especially when nightingale roots run deep and far in the past (which they do for me, too).
So much love and light to you!!
Leave the club Marie, I’m sure there’s other club than that !! that club sis weird to me and deserve more .
Marie,
I wanted to say I agreed with all the ladies here and encorage you to run away from this crazymaking and selfesteem-eroding situation, and quit that bike club. However, i have read your last post and I am glad to see how you have taken back your power and in the process of healing. You go girl! Never look back. You deserve better. Good luck with everything. Hang around here for support and refueling, it pays. Spoken by a person who though improved, still struggling with boundaries. Stay strong.xx
Molly is in danger but mostly from herself. The self deception is strong in this letter – the idea that sleeping with this man would help his life indicates that… I don’t know. But perhaps it’s guilt. The only way the LW can face herself is saying she had sex for the good of humanity.
The fact that the couple tag teamed her is really off putting. I have heard that this happens with I assume dysfunctional people in open relationships. They can come on quite strong and it sounds very predatory.
I would leave the Cycling group for a while. For one reason – you seem to find it difficult to take actions in line with what makes you happy or fits your values. And i think putting yourself in the path of your AC, narc predator that you are very susceptible to is asking for trouble. Acknowledge to yourself that you have a weak spot here and bow out of this group. It’s also showing yourself that you value your composure and calm over fleeting social ties.
Just saw the update! You left the group! This is great ! Also interesting that the group is related to your other ex which means perhaps that cycling is just not the sport for you!
Yes, I did leave. I guess it’s all the comments from all of you + Natalie great suggestion that helped me taking the step I needed. I easily feel confused with boundaries. But it feels so right to leave that I’m almost not afraid of what’s next, now… I guess I was so ripe to leave… See, a friend of mine told me he heard me, before all this happened last summer, that I already said that I felt less « happy » with being part of that club. It was true. I guess I « called » a good drama into my karma to allow me to leave, since it seems like I just can’t seem to want enough to leave without any good reason. Maybe I’m creating drama to push me to take decisions I feel I must have to make… I don’t know.
I don’t think you’re alone in needing a drama in order to push you to make a decision, Marie. You have insight into yourself – probably more than you give yourself credit for. I’d like to get to a point of being able to make a decision without getting sick (that’s my drama). Getting asthma as a child saved me from a lot of my father’s scapegoating, but then I mistook sympathy for love, and that’s another pattern I need to break. Getting sick wasn’t conscious, but it was a way out. Then I started getting sick even when I was looking forward to an event – my body didn’t know the difference between the anxiety of my father and the anxiety of an upcoming event… But each little insight we have is good, because if we can’t see it we can’t heal it. You can see stuff that you’re doing – I have hope for you!
I think this is very interesting – how do we listen more to ourselves, and cut out the things that don’t work for us. I was also in the middle of a lot of anxiety recently and I realised that I hadn’t been guarding my boundaries or listening to my own feelings. Then I had a total panic attack which was the wake up call needed to actually even ask myself, hey what do you want and need, instead of being rushed along with other people’s desires and their anxieties. Like you, I also cut out of an ongoing social situation and felt such relief after that.
First it showed me that I wasn’t really listening to myself. I also didn’t believe I had a choice. I let the stress of having busted boundaries pile up and up.
You said that you easily feel confused with boundaries. This is a great insight. Next time you feel yourself unhappy and ill at ease, ask yourself where your boundaries are being busted… perhaps good judgment only comes to us with effort full thinking and actually challenging our beliefs and figuring things out. But the thing is that we don’t even realise we are ill at ease. Being uncomfortable and not valuing our own comfort is our home. It’s tough. I don’t know the best way out. Maybe it would also work to have strong boundaries based on values – the married man thing is a good one to have strong values on. If you predecide certain things it saves you from making up your mind on the spot while two manipulative people are poking holes in your boundaries.
Good on you Marie, putting distance between you and all that dysfunctional drama is priceless.
Over many years I’ve learned that you can only be loved by others to the extent that you love and accept yourself, just like Nat always says. Note that doesn’t mean being perfect, not at all. But simply accepting and caring for ourselves kindly, and with compassion, as we really are right now, not as we wish we were or plan to be when we are ‘fixed’.
In my case all my dysfunctional relationships both romantic and otherwise were a smokescreen so that i didn’t have to be with ME. Once i cut off from all that, I faced some very painful feelings but got on the path to healing. (I’d highly recommend therapy for this) . Am in a wonderful relationship now, as my real, flawed, human self and honestly it’s a world away from any of the crazymaking situations I was in before. It’s real and nurturing and loads of fun, and I know that’s because, before we met I was already being real and nurturing with myself. Like attracts like.
I think it’s only when you can accept your own humanness, without all the fantasy drama games as distraction and wish fulfilment, that you can accept a real genuine persons love, because they too are human. EU Partners are an ideal fantasy, they’re never real, because they are never actually honestly there with us, but if you stick with these relationships for too long, you can get addicted to the fantasy of ‘what could be’ and never step into the reality of a real relationship at all. (It can’t be a coincidence that a lot of the women who comment on this site are clever, artistic types who live in their head a lot! We love escapist fantasies!)
Of course, I still struggle with boundaries with those drama types in life and work – they’re like my kryptonite and I suspect they always will be, due to my hardwiring- but that’s ok. I stay away from such toxic types where I can and, where I can’t, I make sure I check in with myself/sane friends to keep me grounded while I interact with them.
Good luck in your path. so much wisdom and honesty in Nats words and all the comments on this site. There is a wonderful life on the other side of this emotional suffering, it’s WAY more joyful, peaceful and powerful and it’s yours for the taking Xxx
When to leave and when to stay? How do you know when to just get out for your mental health or when you’re suppose to stay and practice your boundary setting and you comfort zone??
When dealing with domineering, verbally abusive (even subtle, covert) people at work I used to feel scared and panicky and cave into to them just to please them and get them off my back. Then, either avoid them or leave if I could.
Now, I calmly stick up for myself and continue on with my day and work through what I need to do next, if anything. With my job, I can choose, for the most part, which building I work in and which room. I am usually requested months in advance for a single day or for several months. One building in particular is very dysfunctional and unfortunately where a good portion of my requests come from. I am at the point where I see the dysfunction for what it is and am able to, for the most part, not take anyone’s behavior personally. Yay, Yay, Yay. I made HUGE strides. I am also actively building relationships with healthier buildings.
I had someone yesterday who is supposed to help me, attempt to over power me – take over my role (twice). He did it in front of others. I calmly said no, that’s not what were doing, and he made it clear his contempt, rolling his eyes and stomping off (rebellious teenager, perhaps). He then did subtle things to undermine me.
Afterwards, I calmly pulled him aside to “make sure we’re on the same page” and let him know he needs to check with me before making decisions that I am ultimately responsible for. He would not make eye contact, he had his arms crossed, he accused me of being critical, he talked over me, he tried to convince me that the room that I chose in the building was not safe (it was a COMPLETELY ridiculous assertion/deflection? something I run into a lot). I asked him to please look at me when I’m speaking to him. I asked him to stop talking over me. I repeated my statement and he threatened to not do his job next time. I calmly replied that that is his choice and walked away. He subtly undermined me the rest of the day.
I let the building administrator and the person who asked me to come (a regular client who only calls me and one other person, know about it). He agreed that he was out of line and would speak to him. I let them know how disrespectful he was and that he threatened me. He said he was sorry that I had to deal with that.
I am now vacillating between holding my own and going back on Tuesday as scheduled and thinking life is too short and why put myself through it!
Any feedback thoughts?
Reacting to: When to leave and when to stay? How do you know when to just get out for your mental health or when you’re suppose to stay and practice your boundary setting and you comfort zone??. . . When dealing with domineering, verbally abusive (even subtle, covert) people at work I used to feel scared and panicky and cave into to them just to please them and get them off my back. Then, either avoid them or leave if I could.
Hi–No takers on feedback yet eh? Okay, I’ll jump in so that maybe we both can hear from others. . .
Well, for starters. . .these boundary-busting types are EVERYWHERE in all types of relationships, as I’m sure you well know. As far as resources go, Nat has talked a little bit about work relationships (and typically has the same type of info as dealing with a man) and there are a TON of books etc. — everything from Dr. Phil and on and on.
I think you have to pick a strategy that works for you and the situation and the person, relative to your financial situation. I full well understand that sometimes(a lot, actually) people sacrifice their mental health in abusive/toxic work environments just to pay the bills. Married and partnered ladies can avoid this by having a 2nd income (regardless of whether the relationship is healthy or not) but if you’re a single woman? I think it’s much more difficult to just walk away from ANY job — you really have to have your ducks lined up in a row in order to do that.
So, your choices really are to leave or to find some way to manage the situation until you can(and, hopefully, leave with your sanity in tow). I think the steps that you take to leave are very similar to leaving any abusive situation — you get resources, you get support, you line up financials, etc. — it’s virtually the same as when a woman leaves a domestic violence situation. Again, a TON of resources out there as far as “how to leave an toxic work environment”.
I think feeling scared, panicky, pleasing etc. in order to make money is not great. On that, I would echo what Nat has said. When leaving this situation, also make a part of your “support system” interrogating into how it happened, so that you don’t just run in order to repeat the same situation in the next job. Who in your past had you this way. . .a caregiver or other person in authority? Did someone previously have a habit of raging at you to get you to please them? Why do you feel like THIS is what you have to put up with in order to work/make money? Do you feel “worthy” to be happy in a job or is work only justified by misery? What was going on in your child household relative to work and money, who do you most identify in terms of work? Was your mother happy working or was it just to survive, and therefore she was miserable and, therefore, passed on the misery of work to you? And on. . .and on. . .and on.
I would also add that we are under NO obligation to treat people at work as more important than they are relative to our psyche. It’s a JOB. These are STRANGERS. It’s good to be friendly, but these are not friends, really. To want to please people and/or be afraid of them on an ongoing basis affords them more space in our lives than they really deserve — that’s just my opinion, though. Like I said, when you’re single and have to support yourself on one income, I’d say that makes the situation more intense.
On that — is there a way that you could find a way to make a side income? Perhaps from something you actually like? Something that makes you feel good, in the arts or something physical (like teaching yoga, etc.)? I know that’s a lot to ask, but it may take some air out of the balloon, so to speak. If finding a second income would actually cause more stress, no don’t do it — but I think finding SOME kind of way to reduce the power that these awful people have over you, both financially and emotionally, would be a good idea. Even as just a hobby so that you’re not working so long and hard in a temple of doom.
It’s a lot, and I feel where you are — this is getting long so I’ll cut out now and wait to say more after some others weigh in. Best wishes for your situation!
Thanks, JC.
You’re right, they are everywhere. So glad I’ve learned how to face them head on.
I have been looking at the roots, and I do see patterns/connections.
My mom never worked or even drove a car, she was completely dependent. I started working at around 12, babysitting and have always worked. I paid cash for my own car at 15.
I think it has something to do with a challenge to my authority/personal power and getting support from ‘the authorities.’ Validation of that power/authority.
This job offers no security, yet requires great deal of responsibility with very little true power/authority/support. My power lies in the ability to choose whether to accept a position and/or stay there. Not unlike my childhood, but of course as a child I couldn’t see that.
I also see in this situation a place where I feel needed, depended on, but not really valued, accepted, and respected (by my employer, the powers that be) a means to an end – a commodity. I am somewhat reliant on them for survival (a paycheck). And they ‘need’ me for the services I provide.
Thing is, I am not that *desperate* for the money. I’m getting to the place that my mental health is way more important. Yet, I don’t want to leave if the lesson is to stay and work through it.
I’m embracing the lessons and opportunities for growth yet I was trained to sacrifice myself and I do not know where the healthy line is. Maybe it’s different for everyone.
Hi Veracity, a very good question that! I work for myself, a decision I made about fifteen years ago, in part I think because I was so aware of how vulnerable I was to other people’s bullshit so to be dependent on them would be murder to me. Having more than one client helps me see things more clearly, takes me out of my script.
Having said that, I’ve still experienced those games with clients and something you said rings a huge bell with me: situations where you have all the responsibility and none of the power. Big childhood stuff that, I think. I think just recognising the dynamics and the games is a massive step. Like JC says, then ideally it would be to continue for a while in the same place, but observing it, not sucked in the drama, and then making an exit plan if nothing seems likely to change.
This kind of dysfunction is everywhere, but there are healthier jobs, bosses, coworkers, clients out there. Unfair that anyone should have to leave a job but sometimes it’s about graduating to a fit that’s more on your level of emotional health.
This is what I love about Nats stuff, zoom out and it applies to everything! The bonus being that as we make progress all areas of life can improve. The downside is you see a LOT of dysfunction.
Hi Nicola,
I relate to your choice to work for yourself due to feeling vulnerable “to other people’s bullshit so to be dependent on them would be murder to me.” That’s why I chose to do what I’m doing to. It gives me the freedom to leave if need be. I am less vulnerable in many ways because I see through much of it, but it is still damaging to the spirit even when you can see through it.
Yes, situations where I have all the responsibility and none of the power is the big theme. Making sure to pay very close attention to and address this dynamic in all of my future relationships too.
I’m in search of and am ready for the healthy(ier) option.
Hi again — okay, veracity, how about a dose of truth, based on what you’ve said in your own words under that moniker? I mean what I say very kindly and gently, not harshly and a mean person — that is hard to convey through an Internet forum.
So, here goes:
My read is that there is a “learned helplessness” thing going on with you.
I’m seeing contradictions that I think you need to step back from and prioritize for YOU so you can make some real choices, if need be. If you really just needed to vent and get some opinions rather than take action, that’s OK too, that’s what an online forum is for.
Maybe the situation isn’t *that bad* and just aspects of it are bad — that happens! If that’s the case, maybe there’s a way to deal with specific aspects of the trouble, that will make it better for you (such as maybe adjust your schedule, delegate some responsibilities, maybe ASK FOR more power and less responsibility, etc).
Erm — what’s up with “feeling needed”? By people who abuse you? That to me makes no sense. It’s a JOB the only thing you *need* need from it is money. Really to satisfy basic things such as food and shelter. Clothes and shoes and makeup are not needs, no matter how much it may feel like it. 🙂
Personally, I think treating a professional situation as a relationship (ergo, workmates=friends, workplace=a sense of identity and feeling needed, etc.) spells trouble. To me, it’s kinda like setting yourself up for dysfunction if you feel more from the situation than the situation can provide. In this case, the summary of what you’ve said? Amounts to the need to be mentally abused regularly! It confuses me, based on your conflicting need for mental health.
I knew a girl a long time ago that got fired for bogus reasons, saying all the while she was on leave to get a matter sorted “But they LOVE me!” I had to tell her point blank that setting her up to be fired was. not. love. Because work is not a place for love, no, not really. It’s about MONEY, that. is. all.
How about substituting being needed(personal) for being competent(professional)? The connotation of “needed” ties you too much to that specific place, where the connotation of “competent” opens up your options to other outside realities, including another job/work situation.
When we as women approach business relationships on a more personal level, it brings confusion, I think — very difficult to be objective and look out for one’s own self if emotionally, for some reason, you can’t cut ’em loose — as they would do to you, in a heartbeat, believe me. Or, to make them pay — many of us out here don’t value ourselves, with, you know, CASH — instead opting for emotional intangibles.
Erm — what’s up with KNOWING that your precious mental health is in jeopardy, but yet feeling sucked in by and prioritizing THEIR needs, not yours?
A LOT of loaded issues there — was there a tug of war in the house as you, at age 12, started stepping out to earn your own money while your mum did not? Did you have to contribute your funds to the household, rather than to yourself? Somesuch like that would explain the contradictions to me.
Based on my own experience, I would say it’s hard to navigate work related issues if your mum didn’t work. I mean, the key role model was absent for you in that role, you know?
I kind of faced something similar — I had no close role model who was willing to be a “mentor.” I think we as women underestimate how important a good mentor can be for our aspirations.
That’s what I mean about “learned helplessness” — that kind of dynamic often exists in the home and can carry over to work — you suck up things that you don’t want to because, after all, they need you!
I think? Learn not to be so “needed”– and see if that changes the toxic dynamic in your favor. If you do that, perhaps leaving the situation will become a moot point.
Maybe people sense that they can walk on you b/c you gain favor in your own eyes from being “needed” rather than, you know, in control of your own worth and value. By prioritizing MONEY and POWER rather than emotional things that don’t really belong at work. Women often don’t get that business is primarily is about M+P –Like — MEN DO ALL THE TIME but you don’t have any reference point to do that, in part b/c your mum didn’t work.
It doesn’t have to be anything drastic — just subtle changes such as saying “maybe” or “no” or “delegating” rather than being a steady yes woman or not working late, like, AT ALL can work wonders — a lot of resources out there on even just that little point — shifting your energy and actions to protect yourself.
Another longish post — hopefully others have some salt or sugar on this topic!
As if by magic, this came in one of my social medias(mediums? media?). . .here’s an objective take, in the form of an article and study, that basically says what I’ve been saying. It’s a little boring but have a look:
http://graphics.wsj.com/how-men-and-women-see-the-workplace-differently/
How Men & Women See the Workplace Differently
They go to the same meetings, have the same colleagues, strive for the same promotions. So why are their perspectives—and experiences—so dissimilar?
JC I love this. You’ve hit the nail on the head for me. I’m inspired by this message and it’s call to get out there and do things differently, set boundaries, as it’s very active and powerful. Wise words.
Hi Nicola — Well, I came through all of this by some HARD work and reflection that, some of which is pretty recent. I take clients as well, it’s freelance, not a business. I have had experiences similar to the ones you mention, even just a few months back.
My primaries are media and education — both fields are just RIDDLED with psyche killers. So, I branched out a bit and guess what? I had some of the same experiences you had with these boundary-busting clients. It’s like, they figure if they’re paying you and you “need” money, they get to treat you as they wish! NOOOOOOO! Over the summer I had a really bad one that had me scratching my head. I slowly realized the person was emotionally unavailable and I was like X&$&!&!!! . . .oh, jeez, not that, anything but THAT.
Still wary — I wondered if I attract or am drawn to that dynamic in people even in work — this was a client I had been “courting” for about a year. Oh, how many pleasantries exchanged! Oh how much “grooming myself” to be ready for any opportunity! And, when it came — many of the issues we had surrounded me enforcing my boundaries, mainly for doing my OWN WORK AS AGREED rather than being her employee (e.g. personal valet).
How did I not see her coming?? Grrrrrr and grrrrrrr. . .
Soo …*sigh*. ..that’s why I say to veracity and everyone — when you have issues with men, parents, etc. — just be very careful at work, b/c those types of issues might be there as well.
Sometimes it feels like your whole freaking life needs an enema — to rid you of bullshit — your own when you’re kinda pulling the wool over your own eyes, as well as that of others.
JC,
The article you link states that men and women experience corporate-(esque) work differently. In the states, after women helped pioneer, culture morphed into technology. Advertising recognized an opportunity to exploit housewife demographics. This and other political issues, faulty embellished (by western population) psychology, low quality education after women’s rights, amongst cultural residue of past severe oppression, lead women to an extremely different work life (if at all).
The article you list simply states an awareness of current differentiation in what appears to be corporate world.
Arguably (for both women and men), work fills an emotional need amongst satisfying other needs. Shoes are a need in the modern world. Like clothes.
I repeatedly reference Betty Friedan’s The Feminine Mystique in my reply. If you would like a factual account of women in the workforce (and the factors in relation) in the states via the twentieth century, this is a strong recommend.
Take care xx
Jennifer
JENNIFER! What an amazing analysis!
Yes, I’ll go back to BF and see what I can re-calibrate from her and her peers for this modern (Internet) age.
For me personally? I think a lot got lost in transit with “feminism” b/c it assumed that women would navigate work (and other relationships) as pseudo-men, asserting power similarly to men irregardless of sexual politics. Didn’t work, for MANY reasons.
To tie things together on Nat’s work — a lot of why it didn’t work is men get ahead with a wifey(and mistresses) meanwhile most of us here have to deal with careers, singledom PLUS EUMs, abusers, etc. Part of why these asshats move on so easily from us is because it helps to preserve their financial power. Part of why they never grow up is because they can succeed financially AND emotionally without that level of awareness.
Someone like Veracity, and Nicola and I are processing work relationship issues in a way that men mostly don’t have to — feminism and Betty et. al. assumed women’s empowerment as a given, not the emotional realities that would be ascribed with taking that empowerment.
I mean, the original thread here dealing with the open relationship — that was in a kind of work environment! To me, the setup should have been more for business networking, kinky sex should never have come into play on that order but what happens, happens.
You said: Arguably (for both women and men), work fills an emotional need amongst satisfying other needs. Shoes are a need in the modern world. Like clothes.
. . .for me, I would say this is a point that represses women in work more than men. Shoes and clothes as FASHION are not a need, not in dating, not in work. Work and dating FASHION disempowers women moreso than men.
Trust me based on the hell I’ve been paying(and paying and paying) when I trying to navigate back to “corporate” from “education.” And figuring out that my “work clothes” didn’t really go with “after work dates/drinks.”
Men have worn the same work and social uniform both in the UK and the US since the 1920s, minimum — some version of a shirt, coat, tie, vest,trousers, wingtips in various permutations.
Women? Well, we couldn’t exactly march to work in housewife dresses. No, we had to adapt to a (somewhat sexy) femme version of shirt, coat, tie, vest, wingtips — that is STILL ADAPTING in ways that men’s attire isn’t. Men can roll with their grand- and even great grandfather’s clothing and be fine as long as they don’t smell musty. Women? Notsomuch.
To tie everything all together — I think what it amounts to is men and women have far different emotional needs at work and other social contracts, including dating beginning with how we dress(and makeup) to even arrive through the door or at the table.
Our need to please, however consciously or not (can) start(s) with attire and carries through to behavior(s). Men? Notsomuch b/c people don’t really judge men as much based on their looks. Therefore, they have free reign to assert power dynamics in ways that women often do not.
We date them, sure — but ever have an EUM as a boss? Right. They can’t meet our needs at work as a relationship any more than a EUM.
To tie everything together — bottom line, these EUMs and boundary busters are everywhere in our relationships. Worth it to clean ’em out, wholesale.
JC,
Holy Great Response. Your points are valid. Betty didn’t address men’s benefit from the wife servant class of the 50s and the man’s reluctance to lose that.
One reason I love Nat’s material so much is that she validates women’s needs and teaches the importantance of mutuality.
Your points on fashion are really wise. I like fashion in a sense of individual expression. I am a visual artist and indie musician, so the corporate world has never been my life. I’m poor for it, but I make an art of budgeting.
Hi JC, Thanks for the awesome feedback!! I really appreciate the thought and effort you put into your responses!
I take it as well-meaning feedback. That’s what I was/am looking for. I’m reaching out. I find it helpful to get other perspectives.
I’ve done some of the things you have recommended. I’ve pulled way back emotionally and have been setting boundaries, saying no, documenting when they’d prefer I didn’t, etc.. All of which is like playing with fire because I know they could easily find a reason to set me up to me fired if they chose to, actually they don’t even need a reason.
I’ve been approaching this as practice – real world practice in setting and maintaining boundaries in the working world. Like I said above, I went from panicking and caving in when someone was aggressive and controlling to where I now can calmly respond assertively. I approach the workplace with a more healthy detachment (I still have work to do in that regard).
“Erm — what’s up with “feeling needed”? By people who abuse you? That to me makes no sense. It’s a JOB the only thing you *need* need from it is money. Really to satisfy basic things such as food and shelter. Clothes and shoes and makeup are not needs, no matter how much it may feel like it. ????”
I’m glad you don’t get that because it doesn’t make logical sense and it also means that you were not abused in that way! The key is it I recognize it an am looking at it and examining the pull, the payoff, etc… I am actively sorting out what my motivations are and why.
“I think? Learn not to be so “needed”– and see if that changes the toxic dynamic in your favor. If you do that, perhaps leaving the situation will become a moot point.”
I think that’s good advice. I’ve applied that to other areas of my life and it’s helped tremendously and I have way more time and energy! I also love the idea of replacing *needed* for *competent*
“Personally, I think treating a professional situation as a relationship (ergo, workmates=friends, workplace=a sense of identity and feeling needed, etc.) spells trouble. To me, it’s kinda like setting yourself up for dysfunction if you feel more from the situation than the situation can provide. In this case, the summary of what you’ve said? Amounts to the need to be mentally abused regularly! It confuses me, based on your conflicting need for mental health.”
Yes, I agree to a limit. I agree that it’s better for my mental health not to have those needs and expectations from work because that is not what a workplace is set up to support. I think you’re right that it is those needs and expectations that get me in the situation I am in. I have been observing the “healthier” people in the building and they are friendly, polite but seem to keep to themselves. I’ve actually been modeling them in many ways. That being said, I think it’s hard to get around having any emotional/social needs at work.
You’re right it does seem at odds with my need for emotional health…or is it where I’m supposed to be to recognize these things and practice? I’m leaning towards getting out.
Thank you again!
OMG, JC – this in great!!! My Mum didn’t work either, yet she was always telling me what I should be doing. She was totally dependent on my father, who doled out housekeeping money to her, and she had to squirrel away little bits for herself. It was awful to watch how he controlled my mother with money – and he did it to my sister and I as well. So, I’ve grown up quite dependent, and found it difficult to see my own worth.
Even when I had my own healing business a few years back, friends would expect me to do healing work on them for nothing, then they’d pay top dollar when they went to someone else. It really hurt me, but I didn’t want to *sound* offended and risk rejection, so I didn’t say anything.
Then I got really sick myself, and they stopped calling because I wasn’t of any help to them anymore. And I actually felt relieved to be free of them! Now I’m working on healing my self first, and I’m starting to see my worth.
Your post puts things into perspective. There are so many women who work harder than the men because they want to be liked, and feel needed. It’s a sad state of affairs, but, hopefully more and more women will gain the insight and the courage to live a more boundaried and healthy life.
Thanks for your insights, and also for the link to the article…
Cindy,
My grandparents intermittently raised me and their financial dynamic was *JUST* as you described in your household.
When I grew up to be an artist, I found myself working for free. It was agonizing. I was getting so much praise for volunteer work, yet going to bed hungry.
I finally just started saying, “no”. I said no to volunteer art events, commissions where I’d break even, paying for art classes I didn’t need after I had acquired a degree, and I refuse to put my work in an online arena at this point. Demand went way up in my craft. But I still said/say no. I’m working on my severe depression and actually dealing with it at the root. And taking care of myself emotionally.
As for my art?
The world can wait.
As for my mental health?
I cannot ever afford to wait.
I went back an fulfilled my commitment and now I’m done. It’s such an unhealthy environment, I won’t put myself through it any more. I’m scheduled for 1 more day at the end of the month and I’m cancelling it today. It’s such a relief. Thanks for the support.
Marie,
I am really unnerved to hear that it sounds as if you had sex with this man out of pity. And felt a tinge of sad hope, when it wasn’t all as repulsive as it should have been given your absence of attraction.
I am glad to read that other women caught on to this too and have communicated that you don’t owe your body to anyone under ANY circumstance.
If I had a dollar for every man that tried to guilt me into sex by throwing himself a pity party at my expense… I’d have $100 or so. And I’d throw me a party! (a cake and music party in a beautiful forest). Anyhow, there is something you’re avoiding which makes you ripe to be a ploy right smack dab in the middle of all his chaos. These folks are most likely avoiding a core issue as well in themselves (hence all the external distractions). You need to end contact with these people. Stop going wherever they are.
You never owe anyone your body, no matter how self-involved or convincing they are.
Jennifer
xx
I like the sound of your party, Jennifer – cake and music in a beautiful forest! Can I come? 🙂 Wouldn’t it be wonderful if all of us Baggage Reclaimers could have a party together in that beautiful forest?
Cindy,
Of course! All BR crew invited. Yes, it would. Sounds divine. The kind of partying I could get into.
Something just hit me. About how when we have no boundaries we supposedly only attract the AC dudes… They pick us specifically. I don’t think that’s exactly true. They pick everyone.
My life is a lot better than it was ten years ago. Years of therapy and introspection have paid off. I still get hit on by scuzzy guys, a lot. But instead of being flattered, engaging with them, and relating to them, I brush them off immediately. When it’s clear they’ll get nowhere, these guys don’t even try after first contact. They careen right off me and into the night. To hit up the next lady and see if she’s vulnerable.
I don’t think I ever specifically attracted these scuzzy guys, whether or not I was especially vulnerable. I think they knock on every single door on the street looking for the sucker who will take them in. Most doors won’t open at all. When the door cracks open a bit they heave themselves in.
The good guys, they don’t come around so often, because they are looking for the right partner. Not any partner in a storm. And they don’t go after someone in a relationship. And they don’t want to rescue someone from poor choices. So if you’re already hands full or heartbroken over some AC it’s probably not going to happen.
***I did get picked on pretty good by an AC at a conference recently. He overheard in conversation that I was divorced. He asked me a little bit about how I met the ex. He realized, even from a short, short story, that the ex had been pretty shady. And then he came at me full force for the next two days. Felt like I had to use a flyswatter on him. In hindsight what seemed like innocent conversation- was him feeling me out to see if I had made bad choices, if I was vulnerable. When he decided that I was, he focused right in on me. If I had not revealed any past vulnerability he would have immediately moved on to the girl in the next chair. Ugh. Ugh!
Hi. This is Marie again.
I have a question for you all. I told a very few number of persons in the cycling club about my story. Although most part of them were shocked and showed empathy, some of them are still fraternizing and having fun very freely with the couple, together or separately. Who can I trust when I see this? Is it just that I am oversensitive? WHY do they show these people friendship on one hand, when, on the other hand, they TOLD me that this sort of polyamourous way of seeing things were really not in their values? I’m not « friend » with people who have such opposite valeurs! Why are they? Why can’t they show support? Why don’t they socially condemn their behaviour? Why do they condone THIS?
Generally it scares me to think that I will only have friends who think exactly like me. Seems limiting.
This could be the difference between acquaintances and friends. Or maybe a difference in expectations. You expect your friends to have exactly the same values and reactions as you.
I’m not so sure that I can say I would only be friends with someone whose values align closely to mine.
In your specific case, this is a social club, there would be social ramifications for members if they openly expressed disapproval, and maybe they like their lives as they are.
Maybe for them it’s that they’ve drawn a line, they’re socializing with these people but they are staying out of their private lives and are definitely not engaging with their emotional/sexual messing around.
Good points, Elgie and Eli…
I’m not sure it will be well received (or even allowed) but I would like to comment from the perspective of the ‘other side’ on this one.
I am an inverted narcissist and my husband is a covert cerebral narcissist. We have an open marriage. I have not personally met anyone that was in an open relationship that was there against their will and/or was not heavily disordered…most being full blown pathological.
Not all disordered people are predatory, but I can promise you that this couple IS. Screwing with you like this was just a game that they engage in TOGETHER. You got played because you fell for the pity party. Natalie is correct; “unfair open relationship” told it all.
It has been my experience that one of the most obvious red flags of a manipulative and predatory personality is the pity party. If you find yourself feeling sorry for a grown ass man (or woman): RUN. Fast and far. I’m serious. Don’t even be “friends” with this type. If you feel the need to rescue another adult emotionally you are already in more trouble that you think you are.
This is all just my opinion from my personal experiences and studies, of course.