I’ve been working on a class about assertiveness for Baggage Reclaim School because communicating your needs and wishes with respect and confidence is a huge part of not only increasing your self-esteem but also ensuring that you represent yourself adequately…even when there is a possibility that it might not be what other people want to hear, especially if it doesn’t suit their own agendas.
When you believe that there are ‘bad consequences’ to having and maintaining boundaries, communicating your needs, wishes, and expectations, and essentially putting yourself ‘out there’, this is a reluctance to assert yourself for fear of ‘losing out’, even though you’re losing anyway.
If you’ve been involved in unhealthy relationships including all manner of unavailable relationships such as being the Buffer on the rebound, or a Dreamer, or in an affair, or a secret relationship, or waiting on the fence for a flip-flapper to make a decision, this is passiveness. If you bust your own boundaries because you end up engaging in situations that detract from you and your values, this is passiveness because you end up accepting and allowing the boundary busting to continue (that doesn’t mean you’re responsible for their behaviour though) without having an active response (actions and words matching).
Too many of us worry about being liked by ‘everyone’.
Far too many of us worry about being perceived as The Good Guy/Girl.
There is too much emphasis put on being right.
There’s a hell of a lot of validation seeking going on.
We have grandiose expectations that because we have needs, expectations, desires, opinions etc that if we express them, we shouldn’t come up against any issue and it should be ‘easy’. We want to assert boundaries, convey opinions even if they’re not always going to be what someone wants to hear and we essentially want to do this with no conflict. We then get upset if we do experience conflict and decide that there’s no point in being assertive.
I hear so many stories that go along the lines of, “This person and that person busted my boundaries and when I told them I didn’t like it, they ended it with me. I don’t understand! Surely they could have apologised and tried to fix things?” Er, let me give it to you straight:
While there are of course misunderstandings, very obvious disrespect and certainly repeated busting of boundaries is not going to result in a situation where you tell them how upset you are with their behaviour and they go “OH…OK then. Wow, I’m sorry that ____________. I totally didn’t realise and I’m sorry and it won’t happen again.” You really think a grownup doesn’t know when they’re pulling rinky-dink behaviour on you?
We also don’t realise how ridiculous it is for us to expect to tell someone that we don’t like who they are or how they behave and we imply or outright state that their current mode is not acceptable and that we need change, and then we get upset because we don’t like their reaction to being told that we don’t like who they are, how they behave, or that we want them to change. There is often a hidden expectation in these situations that you will communicate your unhappiness and they will show agreement by doing something to change and rectify the situation – but if you don’t like someone or their behaviour and essentially need them to transform into someone else, you go your own way.
Being assertive is not an automatic precursor to gaining agreement.
The funny thing is that when we tell someone that we’re basically not that keen on who they are and they opt out, it is because they’re agreeing with what we’ve said – that’s why a lot of people who are passive don’t voice what they really feel because they fear that the very person who they don’t truly like, love, or respect… will go.
It is the fear of ‘bad consequences’ that has many people who have low self-esteem partaking in unhealthy relationships and situations, being passive and then feeling victimised, helpless and without options.
Irrespective of what other people’s motivations, behaviours and agendas may be, if we want to treat ourselves as worthwhile people of value, we have to be assertive and communicate our needs, expectations, desires etc, even if in the process of doing so, it shows up some key differences between you and the other person and may represent a parting of the ways. Of course it might not; it may mean that you need to find a compromise (a healthy solution that you can both live with) but you can never truly be in the position to make healthy compromises if you’re not being assertive.
And note – I said assertive, not aggressive, which is trying to get what you want via force, manipulation and disrespect in the pursuit of your own aims, nor is it passive aggression where you attempt to achieve your aims via the back door – being indirect, often appearing to agree with a different course of action and then showing your true aims by being non compliant and essentially resistant.
Being assertive is not about getting other people to agree with you all the time or do what you want although it will certainly ensure that you’re never mistaken for a doormat.
It does require you to get out of your comfort zone, to speak when you’d rather bury your head in the sand, and to act when you’d rather let someone else do it. While some people are not going to appreciate you being assertive, there are many that will, most of all you.
The truth is, whether you’re a doormat or whether you have boundaries and treat you with love, care, trust, and respect, not everybody is going to agree with you or do what you want and you’re still going to experience conflict and you’re still, if you want to have any semblance of a life, going to have to get in the driving seat. One option will leave you feeling victimised and helpless when confronted with situations where you have to step up and the other option will have you stepping up because you’re worth the effort even in the face of getting out of your comfort zone. The more you step up, the more worthwhile you feel, the more you trust you, the better experiences you have.
Your thoughts?
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While I agree with this, what happens when the person you have to part ways with is a parental figure? My mom is one of these people that I have to stand up to, and yet it isn’t that easy, when she’s someone I’ve valued (obviously) for a very long time. Any thoughts on how to deal with this very particular important relationship?
Yes it is difficult when it’s a parent but my daughter’s relationship with her father is almost non existent. She has only just started speaking to him after 6mths of no contact due to his bad behaviour towards her.
He’s a control freak and is an agressive person. She had to go nc with him to break the cycle and will do again if he starts to act up.
It’s difficult for her as she would obviously love to have a proper loving father daughter relationship.
But if he makes her unhappy and doesn’t treat her with respect then why should she tolerate it just because of his status?
Like Nat says you have to stand up for you and apply that to all your relationships whether romantic or platonic.
Amen Helsbels. Amen. Your daughter will be all the better for your support and communication of boundaries and even helping to validate her concerns. Abuse and disrespect is no more acceptable just because the source of it is a parent or an ‘elder’.
But if you value your mother Ari, why can’t you make your point *and* continue the relationship? There are other options besides parting of the ways. Also just because you say something, it doesn’t mean that the person is going to change who they are but it does mean that you know and they know where you stand. You are not a child. If a dynamic has continued where you treat her like she’s a higher power even though she is clearly doing something to piss you off, that is because you have continued the dynamic.
I’ve fallen out with my mother on a number of occasions over the past few years because I have made it clear that she is my mother, I love her, I respect her but that I am an adult and there are boundaries. The initial response was getting the verbal equivalent of everything but the kitchen sink thrown at me and then not speaking to me. It’s personal but it’s not at the same time – it is how all conflicts are dealt with. Over time, as I have remained firm while not disrespecting her (respecting myself is not disrespecting another person when I do it respectfully), while she is who she is and I am who I am, the dynamic has changed and it is clear that whatever I have put up with in the past no longer stands.
I value my mother but she is not infallible, she is not always right (far from it), she’s not God or a higher power and I do not have to blindly accept everything that is done and said ‘because’ she’s my mother. To have that attitude is understandable when you are a child but that type of that of thinking as an adult isn’t acceptable because it will prevent you from emotionally maturing and owning your responsibility for yourself and your own life.
My children are 3 and 5. I want them to be curious (not backchat although the youngest is 3 going on 30) and I hope to frick if I’m being or doing something in my later years that impacts our relationship or even their sense of self, that they will tell me and more importantly, that they will grow up to be women who respect themselves and are empowered. I do not want my daughters growing up and sleeping with men because they don’t want to be rude and say NO and I do not want them to feel like powerless victims.
In recent years, we give it to my mother straight especially when she’s creating Dynasty levels of drama about someone or something. She’s learning to see that we can talk back AND love her at the same time.
I hate hate hate the feeling of “having to speak up,” particularly when what I would have to say is, “You know, I don’t feel like you care about me as much as you say you do.” I’m doing much better in many areas of life, that are not so intimate, but there are still some areas of life (the more personal ones) where I feel my passivity helps maintain the status quo.
For example, I kind of feel that my “best friend” isn’t really a best, or even a very good, friend to me on a day-to-day basis. She knows I got a new job, for example, and I believe she knew when it started but I haven’t heard a peep from her since I got here. And I’m not feeling like I want to email to say, hey, remember, I moved and started my job! Maybe if I didn’t think this was typical, I’d be fine, but it’s been a while that I have felt that things between us aren’t what I imagine a bestie relationship feels like.
Then when she does call I second guess myself afterwards. When she calls it’s usually in some context of catching up after I have been living my own life and challenges, and she sounds so concerned, and asks me questions, but doesn’t tend to have much for *me* to help her out on. After the calls I often feel like I’ve been on the receiving end of a dutiful check-up from someone who feels obligated and moral, not that I’ve had laughs with a buddy.
But then I think – Magnolia, you’re ungrateful – she called and talked to me for an hour a couple times recently when my health took a bad turn. Mind you, it was pretty bad and had been a part of my life for quite a while before she learned of any of it . . .
I can’t bring myself to break it off. I just stay quiet and when we do interact, I pretend I’m fine with how things are with us, and secretly wonder if she is secretly keeping up appearances too, because she doesn’t want to disappoint me and I don’t want to be disappointed.
Seriously, this relationship is supposed to be one of my ‘best’ and I have no idea how to gauge it accurately –
“that’s why a lot of people who are passive don’t voice what they really feel because they fear that the very person who they don’t truly like, love, or respect… will go”
I guess that’s me!
Dang.
Magnolia, have you ever read the book ‘The Five Love Languages’? The reason I ask is that I’ve been reading your posts about people whom you consider your friends and then when they dont act in the way you expected you think that maybe they dont like you as much as you thought. For instance, I have a friend who is very traditional and expects all protocal to be followed. I love this girl but I dislike rules and I dont follow traditional protocal on anything. She thinks because I and some of our friends dont react to her the way she believes it should be done then maybe we dont like her which couldnt be further from the truth. Basically that book I mentioned above explains that people show their love in different ways and it may not be necessarily our way. One thing I learned from reading it, is that in romantic relationships, they must be able to speak my love language in order for me to feel loved. But friendships have a little more flexibility.
Brilliant comment SM. I’m not flexible about boundaries with my friendships but I’m certainly flexible about the differences. In the end, each friendship has its framework for how you interact created by the two of you. It’s not a cookie cutter – none of my friendships are the same.
Magnolia, *adopts Whoopi Goldberg in Ghost pose and look*, you need to step back. That’s just too much thinking and intensity for a friendship. I know you’ve moved, I know you’re feeling vulnerable but you prescribe too much. There is too much focus on what you think people who are in your life ‘should’ be doing.
You are a strong, intelligent, thoughtful, introspective woman with your whole life in front of you. You need to get on with being in control of you and let others get on with being themselves. You are habitually disappointed by your hopes and expectations of people because you have very specific ideas about what someone who is a friend of Magnolia’s should do. These people are individuals with their own lives and possibly their own problems and they may not think or act like you. You either respect the differences and enjoy your friendship or you find likeminded folk who behave similarly. I don’t speak to some of my closest friends every week.
Friendship is not about a day-to-day basis – it is the sum of the combined actions of the both of you over time and it is a mutual relationship. If I judged my friends on what they do on a day-to-day basis, aside from giving myself a headache, I might start to think my friends don’t care. They do – they have their own lives and when we connect, it is clear that we are friends and the love and care we feel for one another is not switched off in between – I’m certainly not switching it off. Truth be told, I wouldn’t want my friends to tell me ( as SMs friend does) how they feel the friendship should run. I would expect though that as my friend, if you were feeling this way over a period of time that out of respect for you, them, and the friendship, you’d say something. Otherwise every time you speak to her, you are not truly engaging, listening etc but assessing your satisfaction with her meeting your standards, which is not really a quality interaction for either of you.
Magnolia
Having been through similar with the new man (which you probably recall!) I think we can assume too much. one reason we fear being assertive is because we build up these negative scenarios but it could be anything (I’m not talking open and shut cases of assclownery). she could be waiting for you to call, or waiting until youve been there long enough to have a lot to chat about, or feeling awkward that she left it too long, or think you’re busy settling in, she may be busy herself. I’m wary of the phrase best friend. At my stage in life, and I get that I’m older than you, I’m just grateful to have friends full stop. they aren’t perfect but Lord knows neither am I. I’m likely to be the one who goes to ground, has her phone on silent all the time, doesnt update facebook, forgets birthdays, doesnt do Christmas. I could do better, so could we all. If you want to speak to her then call.
The man will speak to his friends on the phone for two hours. He’d doesnt do that with me as im not up for it. But if I changed my mind or was away and wanted to,I can’t assume he’d know that.
We think people should do certain things but maybe they didn’t get the memo. and sometimes we expect too much. they cannot fundamentally change who they are. We can smoothe over the rough spots but can we accept the person as is? If not, assertiveness may simply mean walking away and letting them be who they are on their own time. if we can accept them, how much do their shortcomings really matter, bearing in mind we all have them? If you’re allowed to be a thinker and an analyser, which you are, then your friend is allowed to be somewhat aloof, independent, private, or however she is.
What is it about men speaking on the phone for hours? LOL I’m not really that much of a phone person anymore (I worked in media sales for too long) but I do as a matter of habit try to pick up the phone instead of sending a text.
I thought your last para though in particular is spot on – if we have our mode of being, we have to respect others modes of being.
Hi Mag,
I was just through a long reply to you and the computer started freaking out so hopefully this will not double post.
Firstly, it makes sense why you are thinking perhaps a tad too much (:)) about this relationship; you are somewhere new, you have a whole new life and home, it makes you feel isolated.
I get you; you know it is funny I had the same thing with a friend of mine a few years ago, and now we are kind of more simpatico ( in terms of balance in our relationship). Some of this, hard for those of us who feel like we can “fix” relationships, is simply due to our lives changing. She is now divorced and she moved back to her hometown to be with her family and so she is going through what you are going through; a sense of isolation and needing comfort from the relationships that she has, to stabilize herself there. She calls me a lot more and wants my advice. I on the other hand, kind of mentally/emotionally “demoted” her-not in a mean sense, just in a matter-of-fact one- from bestie to good-to-talk-to friend- on -occasion, in my mind, to remind myself that we were on two different planes those years ago when I felt on the losing/dissatisfied end of our relationship. I started focusing on new friendships and reaching out to others and tried to just maintain ours and let it have some air. Circumstances ended up making it as it is now, but that took about 5 years.
I do agree with Nat that maybe you are focusing too much on this but yet, I also understand that she is in a different place in life than you and I are; neither of us have families and spouses, so it is easy to get caught up in trying to use our freindships, to fill those gaps.
If you do want to try to “fix” this what you might think of doing is just light-heartedly addressing it by saying something like “You know, I feel like when we talk we always talk mostly about me, to be honest, I feel like I don’t get the other fun side of friendship which is supporting and giving advice to you and frankly I am bored with myself! What have you been up to…I am dying to know about…XYZ” If she is not receptive to that, than you need to let that relationship breathe a bit, and is this a bad thing? Would it not be great to put the time that you are thinking about this, to calling up a new person who interests you, where you live, or joining a fun club? You gave me the impression that she is far away; you need to also focus on building your life in your new home; think of this in a positive way if you can: hugs!
Chin up:) Hope that that helps and is there Meetup where you live? That really helped me, when I moved, to meet people outside of work to hang with:) I met fun people at a vegetarian group and a French group.
That’s true Dancingqueen – I am in a different place but I’ve been the same with my friends since my early twenties. I learned the hard way after the lines were blurred between friendship and codependent relationship where someone had me as a filler for their absent boyfriend and I felt like I was in trouble if I didn’t meet her expectations what she thought a friend should be like. Truth was, it stopped feeling like a friendship so it stopped being a friendship.
Also a number of my closest friends are single as well. I think we should be able to lean on our friends in time of need (that also involves us actively leaning and picking up phone etc) and vice versa and friendships require effort which I have with my close friends, but they also need to be organic and less ‘prescribed’. They won’t mind read me and I won’t them.
Oh I totally agree with everything you said!:) I think that what I said just came out awkwardly. I agree that relationships should not be about perscriptions but I was trying to say that if she felt needful or a bit disappointed, given what was going on, that I related. It is super easy for me, myself, to get codependent in relationships especially when I don’t have a boyfriend, it is something that I have to really watch for. I guess I was just trying to express to Magnolia that we can just slip into these kind of codependencies, more easily, when we don’t have a support system and that I could relate to her feeling that way:)
Ladies, thank you! I have to laugh: I mean, sometimes it can be confusing. Sometimes I write and say, this person is doing x but I suppose it’s okay and I can be non-judgmental, and I get feedback that no! I could use some boundaries. And then sometimes I write and say I’m feeling this way about this relationship, maybe I should speak up, set a boundary? And the feedback is Magnolia! stop overthinking!
One day it is “stop believing in shoulds,” let people be who they are; and the next it is “you shouldn’t be accepting crumbs!” It’s not that the advice on BR is inconsistent, it’s I have trouble knowing “am I being disrespected here? am I being neglected here? or am I expecting too much?
For example, sm, I read (and had him read) the “Five Love Languages” for a number of months during my relationship with the last AC, trying to reconcile his way of showing “love” and mine!
And on the one hand NML, you write “you have very specific ideas about what someone who is a friend of Magnolia’s should do” and then later write “it stopped feeling like a friendship” and “they also need to be organic and less ‘prescribed’” which sounds like you have expectations around what a friendship is, even if those expectations are to have a more “organic” dynamic, no?
I’m happy to be told that I can relax about my friend, that the “bestie” label is just a label, and that I can not worry about infrequency in my long-distance, long-term friendships.
What I do feel, though, is that then nothing, really, replaces the day-to-day intimacy of a partner relationship. All this talk of being totally satisfied while single, I don’t buy it right now, not when friendships are not designed for that kind of intensity, and there is no other relationship designed to provide for those needs. I’m happy to not look to friendships to the role of an intimate partnership, but when I do that it leaves the reality that nothing other than an intimate partnership will provide for those needs.
I have been bending myself in a zillion ways trying to believe that there is a sense of fullness and contentment that can be achieved without a love in my life that I can actually interact with more than once every couple of weeks. If we really believed that, I don’t think we’d keep coming back here. I’d just fill my life with fourteen once-every-two-weeks friends and be done with it.
Even grace, to whom I used to look for inspiration, and who I believe was a kind of content after six years without a relationship, you were open to love, and you hope that what you have will work. If that isn’t hanging on to hoping there is more than singledom, what is it?
In the spirit of trying to feel my feelings, and not “avoid my pain”, as the therapist says – M.
Magnolia; I totally agree with your last four paragraphs, and believe that you are right on (bang on, for the brits). Humans need intimacy and love, consistantly, that’s why the majority of adults on every continent are married.
Magnolia, I too have recently come to grips with the fact that the person I thought was my best friend for a long time doesnt put me on her top ‘five’ list like I put her. I’ve mentioned it in some recent posts. Everytime I would invite her to something she would hold off saying yes to see if something better came along. It finally got to be too much of a hassle for me to invite her to anything and after 14 years I’ve taken her off my top five list. But I am not going to go NC on her because she has consistently been a friend to me for years therefore is not deserving of the treatment an ex-romantic interlude may be. For real, I do think it is necessary to have a group of friends and more than one that you feel close to and do things with, especially if you are single. I firmly believe that there is an innate need for humans to have intimate contact with someone that only comes from a romantic relationship. And one can wax and wain all they want about how great single life is but they know deep down something is missing. I do a lot of business networking and socializing, I am not lying when I say this, everyone is married. I am in the mist of this couple networking all the time and it not only makes me long to be in a relationship but it drives home the fact that I dont have anyone special and havent for a long time. Dont get me wrong my life is full, family I like hanging with, lots of good friends, job I thoroughly enjoy, activities out the wazoo, but I am greatly missing an intimate connection.
Magnolia, let me give it to you straight and then as you already are, you are free to continue thinking and doing whatever works for you.
I don’t have sex with women because it is not what I’m interested in. I don’t feel I have to do this in order to be a ‘good friend’ and it is my right to say NO. I also don’t do replacement boyfriend – basically the equivalent of a romantic relationship in terms of intensity and expectations, without the sex. I also will not be told who I can be friend’s with, be told off if I don’t call every day, or be micro managed. That is not having rules – it is basic respect and courtesy along with boundaries. I will not be controlled, manipulated, bullied and judged for not doing things someone’s way and then told I’d be a better friend if I did. They are just not THAT special.
Maybe you should think about what it is that you want because if her calling you for an hour ‘makes’ you feel bad, what would make you feel better?
I’m not asking you to answer that by the way – I just threw that out there as food for thought.
Also in your position, when you feel that you’re right, the next step is to decide to do something about it and then act.
I also don’t know who said that romantic relationships weren’t something to desire or need, but it sure as hell wasn’t me.
Natalie, I don’t know what prompted the set-you-straight tone.
??? re sex with women?
I thought the overall message of BR is that one can be fully satisfied in life without a partner, if one has enough good friendships and is involved in one’s own life. That the most important thing is to focus on ourselves, and our own happiness, without a man.
I’ve been trying to reconcile that with my own experiences. Despite liking myself a lot better than I did, the unmet desire for an intimate relationship can still be painful. This pain is confusing when a lot of resources suggest that it is possible to be satisfied otherwise.
The pain seems to suggest I could be doing something differently. I wondered, is it that I don’t even do friendships well, and allow neglect? If I am supposed to be able to get my needs met by friendships, then maybe I don’t have the depth and intensity of friendship others do.
I appreciate everyone’s feedback and am sincerely happy to let my friendships be what they are and know that I’m not being a doormat to do so. I reached out to my friend, sent my new number, and we’ll talk.
“I also will not be told who I can be friends with, be told off if I don’t call every day, or be micro managed. That is not having rules – it is basic respect and courtesy along with boundaries. I will not be controlled, manipulated, bullied and judged for not doing things someone’s way and then told I’d be a better friend if I did.”
Of course. I don’t want to control my own friend’s behaviour, so if I’m unhappy, it’s up to me to just step back and ask what’s going on. If my expectations are coming from a wrongheaded idea that my loneliness means I need to expect more from friends or change the nature of my friendships, then that’s good to know – hence why I ask here rather before impulsively taking the matter up with my friend.
“I also don’t know who said that romantic relationships weren’t something to desire or need, but it sure as hell wasn’t me.”
Sigh. I sometimes do wish you had all the answers, Natalie. Forgive me for getting frustrated that you don’t. My self-esteem is just fine. I do wish loving myself meant I didn’t experience pangs walking on the beach alone amongst all the couples and, especially, young families. What I need, perhaps, as I try to let go of hopes of having my own children, is someone with whom to share my grief.
Magnolia; women of course identify with your post, a woman wanting a husband and children is totally normal, basic, universal, historic, primal need. Don’t apologize or second guess yourself, the friends and roommate you blog about want the same thing for themselves and are perhaps busy trying to get it, therefore prioritizing friendships less. Great, you have identified your need and are realizing that friendships, hobbies, family and spirituality are there but you need a man to feel complete. Or, short of that, to at the very least protect you from the lonliness and dispair you feel in the difficult single life. Now, you just need to figure out how to get it.
Hi Magnolia,
If I’m reading yours and Nat’s posts correctly, I think you guys are talking in different directions, or about different things, and it is causing some friction.
I think the main premise that you are asserting as a truth is that if you don’t have a romantic relationship in the works, then you need friendships to fill this supposedly ‘gap’ up in your own self; and further, you feel that since your friendship is drifting away right now, that you are kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place trying to maintain this connection in order to feel some sort of stability through getting your needs met through what you thought was a good friendship before more recent events.
I think the easy solution to this dilemma and grief you are experiencing i.e. the void of disconnection from previous partners, should not be filled up through friendships. It is actually filled up through your own relationship with yourself. I think this is the crucial piece you are missing. Because here is the key to a good life: you don’t “need” these relationships or half-ass friendships; you, however, need to be there with yourself. It sounds to me that your friend is drifting away from you (I had this happen to me recently), and it sucks, but you are going to get through it and find new friends and the world is not going to explode any time soon.
This is Nat is right about not depending on these friendships as crutches for relationships that are not their in your own life because that is essentially busting your friends’ boundaries by taking things into a relationship zone; however, I think what you are most concerned about is just the nature of your friend drifting away from you (which happens I assume to most of us) and what you should be doing is focusing more on yourself and getting through your grief and loneliness (which I think it sounds like you are lonely). That I see is the main take away from your dilemma right now: you are neglecting your one and beautiful life! You as a writer should know better than that (lol). Write a beautiful poem about your life right now. I recommend some Toni Morrison. Her voice is beautiful and empowering and will be sure to fill you up with pleasure and gratitude after reading.
Sorry if this is a long reply.
let me try to summarize for you magnolia my two big take away pieces of advice for you (if this is what you are looking for):
A. It sounds like your friend is drifting away from you (i.e. doing the faze…I hate it too when people do this to me). It’s time to shed some realism on this situation and accept the fact that your connection is not going to be as strong anymore. (I hate it too when it feels like someone is talking to me because they feel like they are supposedly to rather than on their own initiative, I feel you there).
B. I think this fazing out that you are experiencing with your friendship is opening up a reality for you, which is to say, that you might still be neglecting yourself and your one beautiful life. So take this drifting friend as a blessing: her recent indifference to your is exposing the fact that you aren’t enjoying your life! Ta da! haha Anyways, today I am going to journal and possibly run, but plainly enjoy my day, which I hope you get around doing as well rather than obsessing over people that don’t need to be obsessed about.
Sorry just got a chance to read this properly Magnolia. While your original comment and your reply is what I was responding to (don’t think I really need to explain why me having boundaries about excessive stuff is not “prescribing” or “rules”), I just wanted to say that I’m sorry that you’ve been unwell and that you’re having to deal with being told that you can’t have children. This type of news throws all of our relationships into question – friendship, family et al – and of course you will be wondering where your close friends are when you’re going through a difficult time. I think times like this show you who your true friends are. I remember a reader saying a while back that her brother passed away and her close friend was absent while she struggled through the grief – she then knew where she stood. I have a friend who is only 24 and going through chemotherapy and had to go through putting eggs aside ‘just in case’. While not all women want to have children and that’s totally understandable, when you do and you can’t, it’s a huge thing to deal with – I have friends and close family who have been through it – and you just have to take your time with it and as you say, feel what you’re feeling. Take care.
Thinking about you Magnolia. Hugs. You are one totally amazing and inspiring woman.
Magnolia I feel you lol. I swear sometimes the only constancy I get in my relationships, is my never-changing closeness with my cats Doug and Ralphi-Munchkin:)
Magnolia
There really isnt any intensity in my relationship at all. The most intense part was the anxiety period. Sometimes I wonder how it’s different to just being friends. We’re not having sex which may have something to do with it. But even if we were shagging from the chandeliers I don’t suppose that intensity lasts.
If you are looking for something very deep I think religion is a better place to look than a man. I dont talk about it very much here as its not a religious blog but no-one should get the idea that the man has been the big step for me, rather that I made my peace with God and if it works out or not with the man I will always have that. It’s entirely separate.
And if I had to choose I would choose God every time.
I can have those deep and meaningful spiritual convos with a no. of people at church, and best of all with the elderly, Godly members of the congregation. the man is not fulfilling all or even most of my needs. we are pretty much friends with an attraction. Its quite lowkey.over time it may become more but I dont anticipate a great merging of the souls.
here’s a verse I forget the reference – I will give you a place and a name better than sons and daughters.
Though it’s not too late for children yet. You can get your fertility checked out if youre really worried. There’s also adoption.or fostering. I get that it’s a long and difficult process but so is pregnancy, labour and breastfeeding.
Nothing in this world is perfect. Even if it is, it won’t be for long! No man, friend or child can change that. I know what you mean, you’re trying to navigate what’s acceptable and what’s not. If you find YOURSELF acceptable it becomes a lot easier to navigate. And sometimes you can just let the unacceptable go cos you just dont give a f#. Yay!
Grace; found it; it’s Isaiah 56:3-7. We read in verse 5: “Even unto them (that is, unto those single members) will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.” The rest of the article shows other verses
http://www.reformedwitnesshour.org/2008/2008oct12.html
Sorry to come back to this thread so late – right now I only have email at the office and just before term at the office is not best for getting in my BR time!
First, lest I mislead you NML, I haven’t been outright told I can’t have kids, but I have been struggling with chronic and serious reproductive organ issues that take me to the hospital clinic every now and then for 2 1/2 years now, and will turn 39 this month. With no partner to look forward to a family with, and the reality of where my body is health-wise, I struggle with the “reality” (perhaps “very slim odds” is more accurate) that I won’t have my own kids. Even as I write it I can’t quite believe it has come to this. You know how when you’re young and you say “I don’t know if I’ll ever find love” and your friends say, oh, of course you will? I’ve been saying “of course you will” to myself around kids since I was 34/35 and starting to get concerned about the clock ticking, and it just gets more and more difficult to maintain optimism in the face of my age, health and relationship status.
More importantly, this thread has indeed helped me sort out some feelings – the loneliness has been scaring the sh*t out of me, but thank goodness, it doesn’t mean my friendships aren’t up to par. I think, Grace, perhaps what I need in these moments is indeed about faith, or my own higher power, or relationship to myself. It IS something about how I manage being alone.
I was indeed confusing “rules” and boundaries and basic requirements from a relationship. “I don’t need to do a relationship according to your rules” is the basic message the AC gave me when I tried to assert what I wanted. I still am not quite sure what to do with “I wish you’d call me more often” feelings in certain relationships, but as the conversation has moved on, I’ll sit on that one for a while.
By the way, I spoke to my friend, didn’t mention any slight, and heard what was going on with her. She is a good friend and I suppose I just with I had more of her kind in my life. I’m very glad I wrote to you all here before I effed up what I do have in her.
Magnolia, I can understand you trying to be pragmatic. Even if you don’t have children though, it shouldn’t stop you with proceeding on with your life and forging a relationship. I’m not saying that it’s not an incredibly painful thing to deal with but it doesn’t mean the end of you. As someone who knows more than enough women who have been with Mr Unavailables AND managed to move on from them and pop a kid when they’re late 30s and early 40s, it can happen. My friend was told last year to forget having kids, that she was in early menopause (she’s early 30s) and that she had no eggs left and basically don’t bother trying. Devastated, she threw herself into setting up a business, trying to enjoy her marriage and grieving. She gave birth to a baby boy 5 weeks ago. I also have friends who have come to terms with not having children either due to fertility or timing and they have gone on to foster and adopt and/or to find happiness in their lives.
I’m not asking you to be all singing and dancing about your situation but if a relationship is what you want, go and get it. That’s a start. It is not impossible – I see women in their 40s, 50s, 60s and beyond forging relationships. Hell, I hear from readers whose mother’s are in their 70s and 80s who are forging new relationships. You’re 39, not dead. It is bad enough that society loves to make out like women might as well kick their bucket on reaching their 30s (and to be fair, women are guilty of doing this stuff to other women), but don’t do it to yourself. If you want to be in a relationship, you will create the life and get on with your life in such a way that it leaves you open to meeting people and ensures that your life is optimal for you and for meeting someone.
Grace, I deeply appreciate this response. Thank you.
I agree with everything you have wrote. x
Nat!!
You are spot on girl! In fact, your last four posts have really resonated with me. I am currently in a relationship with myself and boy does it feel
GOOD!! I am so at peace and content!! What a beautiful and wondrous relationship it is!!!
God bless you!!!
” I am currently in a relationship with myself and boy does it feel
GOOD!!” love this
I loved this entire article but this part really resonated with me…
“I hear so many stories that go along the lines of, “This person and that person busted my boundaries and when I told them I didn’t like it, they ended it with me. I don’t understand! Surely they could have apologised and tried to fix things?” Er, let me give it to you straight:
While there are of course misunderstandings, very obvious disrespect and certainly repeated busting of boundaries is not going to result in a situation where you tell them how upset you are with their behaviour and they go “OH…OK then. Wow, I’m sorry that ____________. I totally didn’t realise and I’m sorry and it won’t happen again.” You really think a grownup doesn’t know when they’re pulling rinky-dink behaviour on you?”
I REALLY did think that if I were assertive and voiced my concerns about issues in my relationships that OF COURSE the guy would work things out with me. I don’t think I’ve ever read something so clear. I have spent the past few weeks wondering why my last relationship ended with the guy telling me I was difficult and argumentative. I spent all summer dating a guy who refused to kiss me and barely touched me. At first he said he wanted to take things slow and I was able to get him to hold my hand! But every week the discussion came up. He blamed it on being sick, being wary of American girls, and finally on depression. I couldn’t figure out what the f$%& was going on. He tried tell me that he wasn’t ready but that he wanted to spend time with me and enjoyed my company. He wanted to be with me every minute. He hung out with me and my parents. I just couldn’t figure out what was holding him back since he wanted to be around me so much.
Admittedly I came off as argumentative after weeks of stating my needs and seeing little to no results. I didn’t realize that in a way I was telling the guy I didn’t like who he was being. I was working with the frame of mind that he and I wanted the same things and the poor guy was acting like a fool ’cause he didn’t know better. Now I understand what you’ve meant by having different agendas. In the end, after so much discussion he told me he couldn’t handle the discussions anymore. I was shocked, maybe if he’d just kissed me or gave me a compliment once in a while I would’ve shut my mouth. I won’t ever be sure what the real issue was but I now know it basically came down to us telling each other that it was not going to be the way the other envisioned things. We each went our own way. At first I regretted speaking up for myself. I thought, maybe if I just let him have things on his terms he would have come around eventually. But sitting passively and waiting is just not me. And I’d rather be me, even if i make mistakes sometimes.
Donna, I have always felt too that if I voiced concerns to a guy that he would work it out with me…NOT. I also felt if that early on in my parents relationship had my mom stood up for herself to my dad that their relationship would have been different.I can tell you, no way would it have ever been. My dad is an azzclown and they would have been divorced a lot sooner. Here’s what I have learned, enforcing boundaries gets rid of the people who were never going to treat you right in the first place. I find it interesting that Natalie continuously points out that we dont like these people anyway, she is absolutely right. I find it ironic that your guy above called you ‘argumentative’. I guess that’s what he calls someone stating their wishes and needs.
Donna, let’s look at this another way – why were you with someone who from the outset exhibited clear code amber and red warnings? It is not that you met him in a wonderful state that he remained in for an extended period of time before you ran into issues – you met him this way. Why would you want to be with someone who you had to hand hold through the relationship and coax into basic shows of affection? You are better than this.
I feel like putting on a jumpsuit, getting on a plane and coming through your roof intervention style lol.
You’ve been through so much – what are you doing going for another round when you could have just walked away? You don’t have to have the last word and you don’t have to fight it out in your relationships.
Stop going out with these awkward plebs who come up with all of these excuses.
Of course you’re going to look argumentative if you raise an issue and then keep raising it every week. The issue isn’t so much that there is an issue – it’s that there are these obviously large issues in your recent relationships and that you seem to think you can overcome them even in a new relationship.
Sheesh! You’re right. I got swept up in the madness of the situation. As to why I stuck around, I have to say I second guessed myself. Inside I knew this guy was acting like a screwball. I have been through too much. And the weird part is I thought I was in a better place. Time to reevaluate! There is a lot I haven’t dealt with about myself if strange people like this look like good options to me.
Your answer: he is…
(1.) gay; or
(2.) on-the-rebound, hence not wanting to show physical affection to you, even privately, so as not to have you expect any PDAs, which would jeopardize his getting-the-ex-back.
Donna that part that you quoted really hit home for me too.
“While there are of course misunderstandings, very obvious disrespect and certainly repeated busting of boundaries is not going to result in a situation where you tell them how upset you are with their behaviour and they go “OH…OK then. Wow, I’m sorry that ____________. I totally didn’t realise and I’m sorry and it won’t happen again.” You really think a grownup doesn’t know when they’re pulling rinky-dink behaviour on you?”
But you know what really knits up my britches as my mother used to say?…So MANY therapists or self-help books,will tell you to have this “respectful” little conversation “This really hurt me…blah blah blah” even in the most dysfunctional relationships. I actually saw a self-help book about being in a relationship with men who have anger issues, recommending this! Egad! Why would you recommend, when someone is abusive, to so gently share your feelings? It is almost comical “When you hit me and called me names I felt…”
When I had my epiphany relationship, my ex yelled at me in public, said some embarrassing things ( to him and me and our relationship) in front of his parents and children on our vacation, and tried to yell at me in my own house while he was breaking up with me. After of course I struggled with anger; I had just coldly escorted him to the door and shut down. My ( new) therapist at the time actually said to me “Have you thought about calling him back and telling him that what he did, and outlining the yelling and disrespectful comments as something that I could “share” with him. She even warned me to use “I feel” not “You did” to make him less defensive!
I am sorry but I dont need to sugarcoat my communication with an AC and if I end up with one again ( although I doubt that, as I can now spot them)…if anyone ever busts my boundaries like that loser did, again, he will get a firm, curt “Get the hell out of my life, you immature, abnormal control freak, and don’t call me again” *slam*.
Sorry, but the “respectful” communication advice *in abusive relationships*, by theraputic professionals really pisses me off; I don’t advocate “telling them all about themselves” but it is sexist and added abuse to expect women to tiptoe on these losers feelings.
I’m with you, dq. This “did you tell them how you feel” approach has kept me “communicating” with people who showed me that they didn’t want to communicate or “share” anything.
I’ve started seeing a new therapist and when I talk about all the things I’m doing, trying to stay busy, he says: “You can do that. Lots of people stay busy to avoid their pain.”
I feel like it’s at odds with what I’m learning here: ie. to live a full life and not focus on whether there is a man in it or not. He seems to take it as though I’m not facing whatever issue it is that keeps me from forming relationships.
I remember reading something about the ridiculous of therapists who start with the idea that a relationship needs preservation, and that mediation is about finding a middle ground. The article asked: If he beats her three times a week, and she wants none and wants love and respect, what’s a compromise: beating once a week and a nice dinner out?
Magnolia,
Yeah, I agree; I think that there is some value in…I think it is called “cognitive therapy”? Although I do agree that we have to confront the original pain that brought us to be attracted to the people who bring more pain in our lives, the purpose of therapy, in my opinion, should focus maybe half on what happened in your childhood and the other half on what you are going to do, now, to make yourself feel better both short and long term. Yesterday I was really PMS-y and depressed and I went to a movie by myself that really cheered me up. Then I came home and had a really nice evening with a friend. But you know, when I first moved here I was so lonely and it took a while to make connections and I would spend whole weekends alone. I had to force myself to go to Meetups and out for jogs, and to do work in cafes just to be around people. It is really really hard moving and if you have doubts that the therapist that you are seeing gets you, try another. I bet you might find someone who can root for you both in your setting up your new life, and in your healthful attempts to distract yourself from too much brooding. Try Meetup:)!!!
Thank you, NML! I don’t comment, but I do read you. I really needed this today!
My problem is, I don’t say “no” when I should. Then it builds up until I get so mad I overreact. I have felt guilty about ending some relationships because of my attitude, when they were possibly worth saving.
Bellevue Mom, you did the best you knew how with the knowledge you had at the time. The lesson isn’t that you could have saved the relationships; it’s that you could have been more assertive so that you had a better view of whether to stay or go. The lesson is also not to keep saying Yes when you want to say No because one day, after busting the crap out of your boundaries one too many times, you will blow and they won’t understand where it is coming from because you previously kept saying yes.
Yes, that’s my problem! I do blow! Then everybody gets mad at me for being a b*tch! I’m either a doormat or a witch.
I remember being too scared to communicate my needs and wishes as I ‘knew’ deep down that if I did he would leave. Eventually the effort it was taking to bury my own needs became too much and so I asked him about our future. The response – “it’s hard to predict the future, let’s wait and see what happens in the next few months”. Wait for what exactly? It was difficult, but I decided to take control and end it. Up until that point I had been putting up with much boundary busting and even abuse. It has been a difficult and excruciatingly painful two months, but if I’m honest no more painful than being in that ‘relationship’ in the first place. I was always losing anyway. As I suspected, he has let me go and, apart from some futile attempts to contact me via other people, has left me alone. I’m only human so a part of me is sad that he didn’t try (ego), but I’m ok with that now. Looking back it’s quite empowering to think that I made a decision to treat myself as a worthwhile person of value by asserting my needs and desires even though it ultimately resulted in a parting of the ways. I’m still recovering and I’m not sure how long it’s going to take, but I’m definitely sure that I will never be mistaken for a doormat again.
Lilly
I agree with and relate to everything you have written, right down to experiencing the “I can’t predict the future” line from the exMM. I am so glad that we have both stood up for ourselves and left these relationshits where we were made to feel second- or third-best. We ARE worthwhile people and deserve the best. Isn’t it great that we can count in months now, instead of weeks of NC? We are on the road to recovery, and to being assertive people.
I need to get more assertive in other areas too – especially with the saying “no” part. I will take the advice Natalie gave in one of her books, and practice saying one “no” for every few yeses.
Learner, it struck me that they may not have been able to predict the future, but we did! Month three here we come. It may have been a long-time coming, but learning to stand up for ourselves is paying off. I will get to test my newly found confidence this week as I have to contact him to ask for a reference. There have been a few stops and starts, but I’m finally ready to apply for a PhD. I’m actually dreading having to ask, but there is no other way around it.
Lilly,
Yes, we stood up for ourselves and made a *firm decision* about the future – something that neither exMM seemed to be capable of doing (as they would have to lose part of their cake-eating/keeping gig).
I wish you the best as you have to contact the exMM for work/study purposes. As you know, I was in a similar situation recently, and managed to get through it reasonably well. I’ll be here for you if it gets tough.
And good for you re: the PhD decision! I found the Master’s level tough enough, but think about that doctorate every now and then. It’s great that you are doing even more towards a great future for yourself 🙂
Yes, bring on month 3!!!
You will find that when you start to say NO and not only does the sky not fall in but you also feel better, that you wonder why the hell you didn’t start saying no much sooner. Good to see that you’re recognising the value of NC Learner and keep going.
Natalie,
Yes, I have often had an irrational fear that bad consequences would occur if I turned down someone’s request. Saying “NO” to a friendship with the exMM is probably one of the most assertive things I have ever done. I do feel better about it, but still unsure at times. Yesterday, I wrote the “unsent letter” to the exMM, with the help of your worksheet. I got together with a friend who knew about him (and had met him), and we burnt the letter plus a picture of me with the exMM, in a type of a “funeral”. I read the letter to my friend, and was surprised how emotional I got. My friend then said that she thought the exMM really did love me, but he didn’t know how to handle his marriage and OOW. She thinks he will have a tough time getting over me (although not as tough as it will be for me!). Now, maybe she said those things to give me some kind of validation (maybe she sensed I needed some), but the end result is, after this letter-burning and pledge to `let go` I am left feeling a bit nostalgic. This confuses me.
I needed to hear you advice to `keep going` with NC today. It is the only way I will continue to recover from the effects of the relationshit with the exMM.
Thanks NML!!!
Hey Learner, the nostalgic feelings can come and go, and can be triggered by anything. One thing I learned (the hard way) is to NOT act on those feelings, particularly in the early days of NC. Even though it still is difficult for me, opting out of the OW pigeon hole has had consequences. While the word “consequences” has a negative connotation, over-all the consequences have been beneficial. The Unsent Letter (Nat’s guide is the best) is supposed to dredge up a ton of feelings. Ride out the nostalgic ones. Of course, even though there is no such thing as a relationship with a MM, there was something. Whatever it was is over now. We won’t sacrifice ourselves in the name of “love” again. That’s one hellva important consequence of assertiveness. I’ve learned to just feel those nostalgic feelings without acting. And I’ve also learned that adhering to my boundaries/values is a kind of AC shield. Had I had any boundaries/values, there would have been no MM. I’m a slow learner!
Thanks runnergirl,
I will continue to trust that the overall consequences of saying NO to the exMM will be beneficial, and will ride out the nostalgic feelings without acting on them. If only I could stop him from making appearances in my night-time dreams. Ugh!
So glad to hear you are using your boundaries/values to help you navigate the dating world. That’s great!
You know Lilly, it’s not a bad thing that he let you go. If he hadn’t, you’d be going through even more torment in his clutches. This man has the compassion of a stone – you are worthy of more.
Natalie, I agree if he had contacted me I’m not sure if I would have been strong enough to resist so he actually did me a favour. I doubt it was an act of gracious kindness though (lol), his callousness and total lack of compassion at the height of my grief was unbelievably damaging. Coming to terms with the fact that he knew what he was doing is difficult. I’ll never understand it, but I suppose he had his reasons. I keep reminding myself that his behaviour is not a reflection of my worth.
Ari – regarding parents, I too have just the same situation with my Dad.
I am 45 and still feel totally unable to be assertive with him, and with my Mum also, as standing up for myself in the past has caused deep rifts and silence for years.
They are both elderly and I can’t find it in myself to upset them in any way at their stage of life, although it has always been like that for me.
As a result I find it very hard to keep my boundaries and am treated like a child and expected to act and react like one.
Sally-Ann, you there will always be a reason why we don’t want to assert ourselves with our parents. Yours haven’t always been elderly but your position by and large remains the same.
The truth is, if they are elderly, I wouldn’t exactly be expecting a great deal of change but there are so many ways that you can be assertive without having a showdown. See them less, go when you want to, leave or make your excuses and say goodbye and hang up the phone. Not participating is assertiveness also. If you have chosen not to assert yourself with them based on their age, it is up to you to find an alternative solution that respects you instead of victimising yourself and feeling helpless.
Looking forward to the course, I will definitely sign up, assertiveness is something I’m in desperate need of.
Thanks Kitty x
I broke up with my Mr. Unavailable 8 months ago. We were due to be married this summer but despite the ‘Future Faking’ etc he couldn’t hack it. I am in NC mode now. But back then when I tried to be assertive he was manipulative to the point where I was made to feel like the one in the wrong. Since we broke up and following a lot of counselling I have come to the point where slowly but surely I am becoming a much more assertive person. And yes, initially when you have to confront someone your heart might feel like it’s going to burst out of your ribcage but over time people treat you with more respect. Start small and pick your battles. Even learning to say ‘No’ is a good beginning on the road to assertiveness. People start to see that this lady is not to be messed with! It sends out feelers and the knock on effect is incredible. This has happened to me in both my professional and my family life. It’s like that quote ‘I’m as mad as hell and I’m not going to take this anymore!’ I write this today because for the first time in as long as I remember my boss said ‘Well Done’. Sounds silly I know but because I stood up for myself we have a much better working relationship. I have so many passive aggressive people in my life – my father, my boss, my ex and I know now you either learn to be assertive or you spend your life as a doormat. Be assertive, do what is best for you and don’t let anyone make you feel guilty for putting you first! 🙂
This is wonderful Fiona and a shining example of the difference it makes to ascend into your personal power. What wonderful positive results that far outweigh any conflict you may experience.
While I wasn’t passive at work, I did find that a side effect of me improving my self-esteem was that I asserted myself in areas where I’d lacked boundaries – like taking on far too much work, overachieving, but not feeling as much benefit. I got a promotion, 3 pay rises and one while I was on maternity leave because I was far more assertive.
WOW! This artcile was perfect timing for me….. My AC and I broke it off three months ago for good after a three year-on-again-off-again ( mostly on but admittedly there were issues ) relationship. He had a “friend” he wanted to invite to his graduation and subsequent celebration( he went back to school following a long bout with unemployment – he is 50 yrs old ) with family and friends. This ‘friend’ had been a filler during one of our three month splits last year – so needless to say – it would have been very inapropriate to have her present. When he mentioned it, I was actually floored. Why would he want to invite this woman to a family affair knowing I wouldn’t be comfortable and everyone else would have felt awkward? But regardless, when he mentioned it, I firmly expressed my dissapointment and stood my ground and told him “no way. You don’t invite a woman ‘friend’ you slept with around me.”
Surprise! Surprise – after that his attitude towards me ( we had been looking for a place to live together as the relationship was humming along very nicely at this point or so I kidded myself into believing ) did a 180 degree turn and the passive-agressive behavior, on his part, began. Shortly after, we aplit up – as I said – for good.
I realize now that had I not been letting him bust boundaries in the past, and there were lots of times – my fault, yup, he wouldn’t have expected me to keep right on allowing it. The first time I drew a line in the sand and stood tough, he bailed. I realize now that I had given this way too many reprives – hoping as so many have stated, he would wise up, realize how great I was and change!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG!!! That makes me laugh now.
and yes, he is back with her, the ‘just friends’ friend. Another surprise …LOL!!
I confess it was a tough thing to do and it hurts to now know, they are together. I reflect often on how many signs there were and can now re-interpret them as the painful truth, that he was just not ever going to fully committ himself to our future, the one I thought we had and he truly did not. I had blinders on, bought the promises, the future faking, the “I love you’s” and the ” I am committed to you for the rest of my life” BS. But I am so glad I stood my ground – I know I am better off without this man in my life.
Every day gets better and I know next time to speak up and assert my wants, needs and desires and also my “don’t” wants and “won’t” allows – if it causes a break-up, so be it. I wouldn’t have wasted three years had I done this at the first sign….Live and learn. Thanks Nat for all you do – it gives me courage and hope and strength every day!
@Finallycaughton,
I am so sorry, that is an awful story. However, it sounds like you dodged a huge bullet; that he could have been planning a move-in and then changed his mind because you called him on his inappropriate proposition; imagine how that would have played out if you had lived together? Hugs:)
@dancingqueen:
Thanks for your support dancing queen. I had been down this road with him before so yes, you are straight on when you say I dodged a huge bullet. Although, in retrospect, I doubt he ever intended to go through with the move-in plans. Obviously, he wouldn’t have been able to keep up his ‘friendship’ – if all it takes is to require respect, honor and dignity in the relationship and they find an excuse to start acting like an AC, the relationship wasn’t on solid ground anyway. I am just so sorry I wasted three years of my life with this guy. I am sorry I ever let him back in only to devastate me once again. It’s going to take me a long time to get over this but while I wait for it to get better, and it does, a little every day despite setbacks, I am working on me and my self-worth. If I had had enough of it, I would have never bought into his nonsense and would not be so angry and hurt now. If I had ‘let the fire burn’ as Nat has said, and not gone back to my emotional abuser, I would be on a different road now and well past the healing process. So thank you again, for your kind words and for reminding me how lucky I really am. I will never be the fallback girl again – ever! Hugs back! 🙂
Understandable that this is a painful one to swallow but the good thing is that you’re free of the on again off again relationship, which truth be told is best reserved for teenagers.
Time and again I’ve seen these situations unfold and I think in the end, especially when the person is probably trying to do a Madonna-esque reinvention, it seems ‘easier’ to be with the person who knows less and was the ‘stop gap’ – she’ll likely have been thrilled at his return. Soon she’ll be wishing he’d stayed gone.
I love your perspectives Natalie! You are so in tune to reality. Truth is, she is thrilled he wanted her back and they now live together!!!!!!!!!!!!!! only four months after we split. Whether or not it works out is of no concern of mine, but truthfully, it may also be a simple case of them being meant to be together. It is easier to go back to the one that already knows him, shagged him and forgave him for dumping her the first time. Why he just didn’t stay with her when he had the opportunity to last year is beyond me. He came back to me – begging and pleading only to end up with her again anyway – it sounds like a high-school romance – foolish and downright ridiculous….but maybe after being with her again he realizes she really is the “ONE”….. she is the one paying for the rental house, that’s for sure! He’s getting a great deal. Oh well, I am glad the roller coaster ride of suspicion ( they were texting each other a tad more frequently than I cared for and made my opinion of that situation known as well )but I have just come to the conclusion, that they really do care for one another and they are a couple. For whatever reason he didn’t realize it for three years, I don’t believe he truly saw himself with me for the long haul. And that AC, as hard as it is to know they are together, is best off OUT of my life. Perhaps she will come to realize that she wishes he’d stayed gone, but it appears they are truly happy together and perhaps that is for the best of all involved……
All I know is, he will never be allowed to return to this gal, EVER!!!!!! Thanks for all you do – it helps so many of us. You are awesome!
OOPS******* left out a bit there: I am glad the roller coaster is Over…. 🙂
Excellent article! Many people don’t understand that setting clear boundaries is one of the most loving things they can do. If you let people know upfront what does and doesn’t work for you, then they know your limits. But, if you wait until they’ve already crossed a boundary, you will either cut the other person off or you will lash out and blame them. Either way, your reaction will come out of left field and hurt others.
Brilliant comment Lisa and spot on. It is up to us to communicate our needs and expectations both through verbal communication and actions including boundaries. It is up to nobody else but us.
“If you let people know upfront what does and doesn’t work for you, then they know your limits.”
Yup, yup and yup! What make me sad is that so many EUMs need to somehow be TOLD that disrepecting is a no-no. How do they not KNOW this?!
Well, now I KNOW that if I have to explain this to someone, chop-chop – out the door I go.
This is exactly what I’ve been going through in ALL types of relationships in my life. I’m adopted, and I calmly asserted myself with my bio mum, which resulted in her wanting nothing more to do with me, even though she knew she was dying. This has made me wary of asserting myself with my non-bio mum, so I have just avoided her for the last six months, and she’s made no effort to contact me. I don’t want it to be like this, and I know she’s too old to change, but it’s hard to know how to express your hurt in a way that the other person will hear, even if they do throw it back in your face.
I’ve had the same problem with my younger son when I asserted myself with his girlfriend who was extremely disrespectful to me. My son hasn’t spoken to me for over a year, despite me waving numerous olive branches. I have also lost friends and lovers the same way, and there are currently so few people in my life that I feel close to that it breaks my heart.
I have been a people pleaser for so long, and although it feels totally right to point out to these people that their behaviour is hurtful, it is depressing and bewildering that so many turn out to be ‘users’. It has made me extremely cautious with new people in my life, mentally questioning their agendas early on and also evaluating my own needs within those friendships so that I don’t continue the old pattern of going along with what others want even if I’m not keen, because I’d previously had the assumption that they would reciprocate.
I am deeply saddened by the loss of key people in my life who I believed genuinely cared for me. I don’t want to close off my heart, but it’s really hard to judge the good uns from the bad uns, and I wish I knew how to rebuild the relationships with family members and other people who I really don’t want to burn bridges with. There must be a middle ground somewhere.
That’s a lot of loss to deal with and your fear of asserting yourself is understandable but it doesn’t mean that you have to stop asserting yourself but it does mean that at times you may need to consider the tone, content and delivery of the message. Hurt is not easy to convey. There’s also a possibility sometimes that you’re frustrated, angry etc which are different emotions to feeling hurt but a lot of emotions are mistakenly bagged and tagged as hurt. I would see a counsellor and discuss each of the situations so that you can learn about each unique experience and grow out of the insights gained. It would also give you tools that are specific to each situation to help you go about building bridges. The main two things I could gauge out of the comment is that in future, if there is an issue, speak to the son not the girlfriend first so that you had his input and boundaries don’t inadvertently get crossed, and the other is timing – people can be funny about spending the last of their lives in conflict or anticipating defending themselves so they remove themselves out of it.
This is a hard one for me. I know in the relationship I’m in now that I need to speak up but I keep putting it off. I fear that I am a rebound, a buffer since his divorce is very fresh, but I have been honest about how I feel. Before we started seeing each other he talked to me all the time, now he either ignores what I say or distracts with humor. As if I don’t notice. It is hurtful and I wonder if this is who he is or if it’s to keep me at a “safe” distance now that he knows I don’t want to just be casual. I wonder if he realizes he is actually pushing me away. But I don’t want to lose him…but why…yeah. I think at times I will give it a few months and see if things change, but at the same time I don’t want to ever be with someone again who can’t or won’t talk to me about things. I know I need to tell him, I know I need to get it out but it’s hard to do. Better sooner then later I guess.
Unsure
Don’t give it a few months by then youll just be more entrenched. For what it’s worth I don’t think you need to be unsure. Once they start ignoring you it’s time to beat it. we women and even men may talk like it’s normal for men to ignore you, not return calls or texts or disappear for days on end. It’s not. It’s someone with one foot in and one out. say something but only once. The likelihood is that he’ll step up for a week or two and then return to ignoring you. That’s when you flush him. Yes it’s imprortant to be assertive but dont take it to mean you should be stage managing your relationship
You both have to be in. If he’s not, ditch him and let him waste someone else’s time rather than yours.
Unsure, based on experience I must agree with Grace on this one. I made that terrible mistake you are about to: letting it go on and ‘see what happens’ hoping it would change. A man that ignores you, as my AC did as well blaming his depression, his lack of feeling like a man, the alignment of the planets and every other excuse under the sun, for his behavior. Everyone is entitled to have a bad day or be in a sour mood, but to ignore you, in my opinion, is the worst thing anyone can do to you, It makes you feel invisible and eventually, worthless. The longer you wait, the more time and energy you will have invested and the harder it will be to let him go. I know, I am still reeling from my AC – and she is right: both feet are either in or out. There is no middle ground here. If they are in, they don’t treat you badly – ever. and if they aren’t, get stepping and fast before you waste your life waiting….. sorry if this sounds harsh, but you need to be who you really are and not let your mood be dictated by his actions. You will be grateful you did when you FLUSH!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hugs to you and to all here that have offered advice and support. This is a great place to share pain and joy and to learn how to treat yourself better. And if your instinct is telling you to bolt, you fear you are a rebound…..listen. It has been given to you for a reason. Heed it.
Thank you for your replies. I had an email already written and saved in my drafts and earlier I sent it, realizing I needed to know. And he showed his true colors. Right now it’s hard to realize that I invested in this at all, but I am glad I didn’t give it more time. He showed me what I needed to see. He showed me who he is and I need to believe him. He projected a bunch of his issues onto me and tried to make me look like I was the problem. But I know I’m not. And the more I read, the more I realized, wow, this guy is so not worth me at all…Done, over and out…bye bye!
Thank you so much for the input and this blog. It is so good to be able to read here and realize that we are all going through this together.
Well done bravo!!!!
Thank you…it feels very good to stand up for myself and show that I value myself over that Assclownery. I almost hope he tries to contact me so I can reiterated how not interested I am….and then establish No Contact of course.
Whatever you do don’t let Mr AC back like I did, be assertive and stick to it. The one good thing is I didn’t let him move back in.
He was Mr Wonderful for about a month, but gradually slipped back to what he really is. I am happy to go no contact, but he turns up with the excuse he needs to collect mail he still has sent here. I even had baliffs here because he had given my address and then not paid a parking fine.
I totally agree with dancingqueen; why keep trying to talk things through with these idiots – just let them go! They don’t listen, their only agenda is them. I think you have to ask yourself, ‘Do I really like or love this person?’
I have always found it hard to tell this AC that I love him, and that’s because I realise now that I don’t love him, I don’t even like him most of the time.
So, you ask, why was I with him ? To be honest, he was very good looking and very good in the sack, and I thought I could ignore the bad stuff. I suppose I also thought that when I told him what I didn’t like that he would change, sometimes he even said ‘sorry.’
They don’t change, because secretly they know they are jerking you around and getting away with it, and they don’t actually like you.
So however much you try to bury your feelings and not say anything, take it from me, eventually you will either make yourself ill and down trodden, or you will explode in a rage of resentment, and they will say you are a crazy cow and need to see someone.
Stop trying to make them like you and stand up for yourself.
Yes – be someone you like and respect. How can you expect anyone to like and respect you when you don’t like or respect yourself for living a lie.
Seaside
Good call though I’d question that they don’t like us. They like us well enough but they have limited capacity to form loving relationships. They bounce from woman to woman wondering whats wrong with us all. They should be looking closer to home but I guess it’s a long time, if ever, before they do that.
You may enjoy book I read recently, “what smart women know”. The authors say that the man worth keeping is likely not going to be fantastically good looking, sexy or seductive. Sorry ladies, I confirm that to be true.
those charmers we keep falling for aren’t madly in love with you. They’ve simply had a lot of practice and they’re just busting out their moves. A good man won’t be as polished but he will be GENUINE.
Grace, you seem to know ALOT and your words are profound. Once again, I must agree with you. I am not sure I agree a good man might not be polished – there are still great men out there that are. But I do agree that assclowns ( and some of them aren’t even all that ) are very adept at the ‘game’ – they play it well until they ‘show up’ for real. nd yes, they never look in the mirror to examine why they can’t seem to be happy and why every woman becomes someone with ‘issues’ . My AC had been married 3 times and had countless relationship failures before me – it never dawned on him, HE might be the one with the issues.. and he had plenty, trust me! They always find the next victim and usually pretty darn quickly too. Sometimes I wonder if they know they are AC’s or really think they just need the ‘next one’ to be happy. It’s a mystery……
Any of you watched the Tudors? I’m three seasons in. They’ve made Henry VIII into a man to learn from: totally charming and attentive to the woman he wants to possess at the moment; the moment he’s disenchanted, he can convince himself that she was never all that. And it’s almost like the writers of the show “fall” for their/his own seductiveness: when he’s courting the next woman, you think, ugh, what a skeev, but two episodes later, you think there’s actually something there, until the next episode where he gets turned off and grows distant.
At one point, he says to one of his wives, who is saying something smart and suggesting something about a decision of his: “I love you more than I loved those others,” (kisses her tenderly, strokes her hair), “don’t ruin it.”
They “like” us as far as they are able, and if they stop, you can bet it’s our fault.
hellz yeah, Natalie! this is one of the best posts on BR.
I gotta tell you – since I’ve more and more accepted the idea that it’s not up to us to mold others in the image we’d like them to assume, and that passivity is like binding and gagging one’s self, and that we need to fill our own needs and wants, and that the more we can not need others to instantly be what we want and need as if they were made for us the better off we are – the easier it has been to just BEA with myself.
for the first time in my life, I feel that I’m in the moment, or more so at least. and it all comes down to believing I’m enough and to being committed to myself, to being on my own side: I still have trouble and need guidance, but it’s getting so much better.
kisses, Natalie.
Have standards -Requirements needed in order that the relationship work out, that would govern how you would be treated, men cam not accomplish this thing for u without ur help, and do that from the begginning, n make them stable, so he would live according tp your expectations.
You would have laid how they would lay themselved to win u, be direct in a nice way.
If he didnot like it he would move to someone else -the one with no requirements who accepts anything. But if he is a person who is serious he would keep with you, he would appreciate and respect ur.boundaries
Your post and these comments are so important!
When someone refuses to hear my needs in a relationship, it’s really that person talking me out of MY reality! I put up with that for years from bfs and gfs. No more. Now when I speak my mind and assert my needs, if the person ridicules or pooh-poohs ignores them, I leave. Nothing is more important than being in integrity with myself.
I like this post. I can resonate so much with it. I was very Ms. Nice for the longest time until recently when I met my ‘nemesis’. I still shudder at the thought of how I allowed him to step on me several times (because I´m nice) until I found out the truth that he was lying to me the whole time.
When I look back, I realise I have met so many people who thought they can take advantage of me, and I didn’t mind as well. I realise now that although I did that because I was being nice, I wasn’t really very happy. And I would spend hours sometimes thinking why I seem to upset someone or why s/he didn’t seem to be pleased with me.
I suppose it is my Asian background, and my Catholic upbringing. It was only recently that I learnt how to ‘handle and manage’ my mother without being affected by her series of emotional blackmails. I’ve learnt to detach and discern when she actually needs help and when she’s using me as her punchbag for her sad relationship with my Dad.
I never thought that the relationship with my AC would have allowed me so many profound lessons, and most them I have discovered through this blog. I guess I am just grateful that despite horrible experience, and the very painful ordeal, I am still evolving and realising that there is so much room for me to improve.
More recently I have been asserting myself with my parents, which has been a huge struggle for them to somehow get used to. My mother will throw temper tantrums and threaten to sell the piano, taking my music and everything and hiding it somewhere until things have cleared up between us. She thinks I’ve ‘changed’ since I’ve gone to college, so she is trying to fight this ‘new me’ and replace me with the doll version of myself from high school. Funnily enough, her behavior doesn’t affect me too much. I’m asserting myself and getting walls thrown into my face, but it’s not so bad.
When it came to the ACs in my life, that’s a whole different story. The intensity of my feelings associated with what they did to me is off the charts, and so asserting myself, or even the idea of it, was always like a form of punishment when they were in my life. It’s truly humiliating how intensely their behavior affected me. Maybe I’m more emotionally disconnected from my parents?
I’ve been trying to figure this out. After I started to come to terms with my sexuality early high school, I think I started to drift away from my mother (she was the only parent truly in my life; my dad was there but also not really). She had said something rather homophobic when I was growing up, and I might have carried that with me as a form of rejection.
Aww, reflection.
acaddict-
….i think you can view what your mom does from something of a reserved distance because she’s SOOoo obviously (sorry) hystrionic. her threats about the piano and your music are very extreme and very (sorry) childish – you’re clearly evolving, and its easier for you to see this in her. also, you’ve known her your whole life, including whatever homophobia she might have, there’s not much new she can pull on you. its easier and easier for you to objectify her behavior.
the same is not true for our lovers/boyfriends. until we become VERY aware of what’s happening in an interaction, what they call up in us, and what our reactions to them really mean, we are a bit like sitting ducks. it takes a while to get to know someone, to see what their real motivations are, to understand our own reactions.
hang in there. if you keep working on you, that same objectivity will start to emerge in romantic relationships. slowly (trust me), but it does.
Yeah it’s all quite strange to me right now, but today I was feeling this beautiful sense of relief, mostly because of BR and other principles that I have been taking to heart more recently. I’ve never had to do this much reflective work in my life so it’s nice to feel, deeply, the “fruits of my labor”.
I have huge issues when it comes to denial and boyfriend behavior. I have a way of ruminating that seems to undercut everything that is real about these men and before you know it, it’s like I’ve let the AC in the backdoor of my mind. Gaining objectivity is a slow process of convincing myself and that’s why I’ve been journaling much more recently to almost track my progress and continue to push forward in my life.
Great post indeed!! I am engulfed in a great book that’s really making me look a little deeper. It’s “Boundaries in Dating” by Cloud & Towsend. A book that would be an advantage to anyone on this blog. One great key point I read was Change occurs when the pain of remaining the same is greater than the pain of changing.
I also states some great key eye openers.
You get what you “value”Value good things and say no to things that destroy.
You are initially attracted to a person’s outsides but over time you will experience his insides. His character is what you will experience long term and be in a relationship with over time.
If we are not dating good character people to begin with then we really have nothing to begin with. I have now gotten to the point where being as so near a man or in relationship is the absolute last thing on my mind. I am in relationship with me and until that relationship is perfect then I know I am not prepared to allow anyone in and that I am okay with.
It is MUCH better to be assertive and deal with the consequences, which in the long run can only be inherently positive, even if it is uncomfortable in the short term.
Every time I am a doormat I sell a little of my soul. My soul is not up for sale anymore.
Oh why Natalie do you know what is happening in my life? “The more you step up, the more worthwhile you feel, the more you trust you, the better experiences you have.” I’m having way better experiences since learning to trust me, developing, and adhering to my boundaries and values. I can’t tell you how grateful I am. I pack up my self-esteem every morning. I’m going to sign up for your autumn e-course. I can now spot and flush an AC before leaving the restaurant based on my new found assertiveness. However, I’ve encountered a snag. Last night, I encountered a “fixer”. I have tons of FBG tendencies and I’ve only done the Florence type once, to no avail. This guy is already totally smitten but totally broken/wounded…cheating ex, ADHD, cried…etc…on the first date! How do I gracefully with integrity and empathy tell him no? I know how to be assertive with AC’s. That’s easy. What do you do with fixers? He called this evening but I didn’t pick up cos I don’t know what to say. Assertiveness is easier with bona fide AC’s. Fixer’s are sad. Any help would be appreciated. I don’t want to add to this guy’s issues but I’m just not a Florence. How do I be assertive with a fixer?
runner-
if you know you don’t want to proceed, call him back and try this: “i have to be straight with you. i really enjoyed meeting you. i know you’ll find the right girl, because you’re very a special person. but i’m not that girl. i’m sorry, but i know in my gut that we’re not a fit. thanks so much for our date. i wish you the best of luck.”
then get OFF the phone. if he freaks out, let him. just get off the phone firmly but gently. you had 1, count’em, ONE date. you owe him courtesy, but that’s it.
cc – great advice.
Runner – will you take it? It would be a bit difficult for me, too, but do you really need a “fixer” at this point?
@cc, ohhh, thank you so much for your responses. I just got off the phone with him and used your suggestion cc. In fact, I had it up on my computer. Thank you. This was an excellent lesson in communicating my needs and wishes with respect and confidence. It clearly was NOT what he wanted to hear nor did it suit his agenda. Getting OFF the phone was perfect advice. He only mentioned crying once.
@Seaside Gal,yeah he opened up alright, too quickly and lots of info. I knew I wasn’t able to fix him, no way, no how. I did that with one ex and what a mess. It was kinder to be honest. He really needs BR and a good therapist, not a girlfriend.
@Fitness, a fixer is somebody with a lot of very serious unresolved problems. Natalie describes this type of unavailability in Mr.U & the FBG. A Florence is a type of FBG that thinks she can fix his problems.
Phew, I learned a lot. I now see that unavailability isn’t a turn-on.
yaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!!! i’m so glad it helped.
i can’t really take credit for that, i cobbled it together from the tons of dating advice stuff i’ve been reading. its the “i know it in my gut” part that really robs the other party of any argument; that’s pretty final, so you must mean this if you say it.
one more note for all the florences out there – recently i read something to this effect (butterfly, i hope you’re reading this): when you find a guy who is a fixer upper, or EU, or an AC, your job is not to fix him; your job is to leave.
to LEAVE.
good for you, runnergirl.
I need a ‘like’ button!! But yes, I’ve ‘liked’ this comment, cc 🙂
thanks, purplelily!
“I can now spot and flush an AC before leaving the restaurant based on my new found assertiveness”
That made me laugh, it is like you are a superhero “BR Girl”: ” she rejects lazy communication faster than a speeding bullet, she can spot and flush an AC before leaving a restaurant, she has her spidey senses tingling and no EU is safe from her laser sharp x-ray AC-revealing vision “
Dancingqueen,
Superhero BR Girl – love it, I don’t think I’ve laughed so much in ages!
Hi runner….what’s a ” fixer ” ?
Hi Runner.
I’d be really careful here. Do you know he is telling you the truth ? After one date you only have his word.
When I first met my ex AC he opened up very quickly – too quickly ? All his problems were the fault of his two ex wives, and ex girlfriends. Yes, he cried and I thought I can fix this man.
I later found out that his last girlfriend was trying to find him to get her £12,000 pounds back, and get her mobile phone back that he had run up a huge bill on. He cried to her also…
Sometimes these men pick up on the fact that you are an empathetic, caring person, and use it.
Sometimes it’s a form of control, and as someone pointed out earlier, it’s surprising how quickly they move on and find someone else to ‘fix’ them.
If I helped someone out he used to try and stop me, he’d say ‘You’re too nice – they will take advantage of you.’ lol
Runner, it sounds like you are doing so well, so be a bit selfish and be kind to yourself; you don’t need this and if he’s genuine, you would probably be kinder to him if you are honest with him.
I don’t normally do this, but I need some advice. I have read this blog for sometime now and it and many of the wise and insightful posts and comments from all the ladies here has helped me heal in many ways and gain new perspectives on myself and dating. Where I need help is with practical application.
I read this post and felt joy and confusion. Joy because I can finally feel myself being more assertive with boundaries and confusion because, well I found myself being assertive in a situation with someone new whom I thought might actually appreciate it.
Here’s the story:
Recently, I had a blind online date (we’ll call it more of a meet and greet because I didn’t want it to have the pressures of a sit down over dinner date). I met this guy and we walked to an ice cream shop. He gave me nice compliments, as I did him and there was mutual attraction (I know the surface stuff). We sat and talked – more he talked and I listened. I was more an active listener– definitely engaged and asking questions and listening and offering bits about myself. I want to mention, more of my active listening was because the date occurred very quickly (meaning we spoke earlier that morning, he asked me out and we decided to meet up later that day), so I really was okay with not talking a lot about me as I wasn’t really in a date frame of mind and have learned from some experiences not to get emotionally invested by sharing so much of who I am immediately (wow, did that just give me some insight).
He joked around about me talking more the next time, as I was getting all the information about him– but it didn’t seem like it really bothered him as he continued to feel pretty comfortable opening himself up and I didn’t mind either because frankly, I found that his conversation didn’t seem to be hostile or egotistical. He told me he thought I was really cool and that he really liked me, he kept placing his arm on my shoulder and also asked me about doing other things together. “This is very nice”, I remember thinking. A few of the things I discovered and asked questions about: the majority of his friends are women and that he doesn’t like doing anything alone, hence why the majority of his friends are women (he said). The irony: one of the main reasons he told me that he broke up with his ex was because she became too clingy to him. I did find this odd considering his previous statements regarding his female friends, but other than these areas, I didn’t think too much other stuff he shared was red flag territory.
We took a nice leisurely walk back to our cars. He took my hand and we held hands the whole way. He asked me if I felt comfortable with him, and if I felt safe with him (I assumed at the time in a protective manner). We hugged and talked a little more, we kissed (nothing deep or passionate, but definitely flirty) and we talked about not playing games and phone etiquette– we both agreed that if the feeling was mutual we both should feel free to call each other and not have a pursuit be one-sided. We kissed again and that’s when he made a comment about I better not ask him to follow me home or he would. That’s when I told him I don’t do casual sex. His response: good, if you did I wouldn’t speak to you again. That put a red flag in my head about maturity. I thanked him again for my ice cream and headed out. Anyway, he asked me to text him to let him know I made it in ok. I did about an hour later and his response was basically that he was tired– damn, now I realize as I’m typing this, he didn’t say: glad you made it in (red flag 2).
The next day, late that afternoon he texted me asking me how my day was. I responded about 30 minutes later (not always good with texting) asking him how his was. I didn’t hear anything bask. The next afternoon, I texted him a very nice, simple: ‘nice meeting u and a thank you’ text for treating for the ic and the nice hug. I was sure to keep it light, friendly but a little flirty. He texted back a short, thanks, same here. I thought about it for a while, then I texted him back basically telling him that if we’re not a match, it’s okay and wishing him well. A short while later he texted back what was I talking about? I joked it off and responded that maybe I was wrong but his text seemed a bit aloof and I just wanted to be up front (because it felt like he was unable to). He responded with a simple ok. I haven’t talked to or heard from him sense. I have no clue if the ok meant he agreed or not.
I am not going to chase him to find out the answer. I actually liked meeting him, but it seems like perhaps he wasn’t being real, even though he held hands with me, talked about activities we could do together and was the one to bring up showing and having mutual interest.
I really would like to go by a man’s actions– not words– in person or text. What really sucks about this experience is that this guy came across very genuine in person. Why lie to this extent? Did he go home, think about it and say “no”? My thing is this – it’s okay to change your mind, just why say things that you don’t mean. I keep hearing this “go with the flow” attitude men want women to have, but it always seems like men are the ones who sell a lot of sand castles in the sky and take the whole go with the flow attitude to mean that they get to say anything that they are feeling in that exact moment, no matter how much bs it is or how much it may hurt the woman after the “flow” is over. I was perfectly okay simply meeting and having just a conversation. I was okay if we didn’t hold hands, or kiss. Men are always saying how women are the ones wanting to take things so serious so fast, but they fail to mention how they say and do things to build our expectations there so fast. Now, with this guy I didn’t expect a commitment, but I also didn’t expect relationship-esque actions or speak if he was really just saying things in the moment that he would no longer feel the moment “the moment” was over. It kinda makes it hard to want to open up to a guy because nowadays even the ones who appear nice, real and genuine are playing games too. And men wonder why we become bitter and distrusting. I don’t want to become bitter, angry and cold. What did/do I need to do differently? I stood my boundaries — at least I hope I did. I tried not to get caught up in emotional things he said. Yet, I thought I was open to us hanging out again and even said to him let’s take things step by step and see where it goes. I don’t want this guy if he is just playing mental head games- but I just want to know how to get better at this dating thing and not lose myself and my ability to be open in the process. Any advice is appreciated.
And if a man reads this, I hope you can stop using that “go with the flow” nonsense with women. It’s silly. Reveal your emotions for the women when you’re sure the next morning you won’t wake up and suddenly have a immature case of “who are you” amnesia. We won’t shred your tires if you don’t ever utter a single word of “in the moment” interest to us on a date. We can take the hint and some of us are mature enough to even tell you it’s not a match in person, before we say goodnight.
Butterfly,
In my opinion he wanted to sleep with you – hence the light comment about following you home, and when you did not want to, he decided more time with you was not worth the effort. They *know* what they are saying, and *know* what they want, and probably discussing this with other guys how to get sex fast and still look like a good guy, at least to themselves. I noticed when meeting really fast, there is almost always some more or less open invitation to have sex, either about going to his place or to your place, but frequently said in a joking way. I think he feels he put a good effort to get sex, and you did not go for it, so it is the next person for him.
Butterfly:
The thing that strikes me about this is… that it was a first date. You’ve spent what amounts to a few hours in his company and you literally Do Not Know this man from Adam still.
My feeling on it – and I’ve been on precisely no dates for a good few years now so feel free to ignore me – is that I wouldn’t want anyone that I’ve just met to be touchy-feely and I wouldn’t want to have to pin myself down to being in close contact with them or even particularly consider whether or not I saw them as a ‘match’.
Tbh, I think that at this point, you’ve got one question and that’s: do I want to meet up with this person again? Or rather, do I enjoy this person’s company sufficiently to spend more time in it?
The bother with hand-holding and kissing and ego-boosting and suchlike at this point is that it’s nice and pleasant and no doubt you want more of that… but it distracts you from your core instincts and honest reaction to him.
When (if!) I ever go on a date again, ain’t no way I’m going to take kindly to being expected to go with HIS flow, he can jolly well go with mine.
(fwiw, as I re-read, I think he sounds like a creep. All that feedback that he kept trying to give and solicit – why? Why’s he need you to tell him that you ‘feel safe’ with him?)
Yoghurt,
I have had a few guys use the exact same phrase: “Do you feel safe?”, or: “Are you comfortable with me/here?” I am starting to think that they are saying it because if you later that day have sex with them, they want to be legally covered in case they get too “pushy” or get you drunk (drugged?)and you “consent” to sex. If you later feel that perhaps you were raped, they absolutely would use the previous questions as excuses. I would not be thinking this, but after some weird experiences I have a deep, deep suspicion. There is a part of one night I do not remember, and I know I did not drink much (I usually do not, maybe 2 drinks during dinner), and although it was not a first date (more like 4th?) I do remember these questions very clearly. And I do remember that one drink that took very long to “make”. The thing is, I cannot tell and I cannot really ask. And, I have never heard from that guy again other than if I was OK (like he was trying to find out what I did remember) and that he was sick, blah blah blah… end of contact).
I don’t think it’s about legal coverage, but more of a psychological trick to make you feel safe and feel like he is concerned for your safety.
Some men genuinely want women to be comfortable, but this sounds like pickup artist manipulation.
Butterfly you cant tell if someone is genuine or not in a couple of hours. I think it takes a couple of months. It’s not that you should be suspicious but don’t jump to conclusions. Also this is all too fast for a first date. There’s no need to talk exes other than establishing he’s single, no holding hands, no talk about sex, no kissing, no talk of what you might do in the future. You don’t know each other at all. Also I spy red flags, too many women and him warning you not to be clingy.
This has non starter stamped all over it, right down to the text ping pong. I would drop it, nothing has happened and this is way too much analysis and projection for as first date. there’s no need to go off on what men do or don’t do based on one date. Even though I think he’s a no hoper you can learn something from this.
It’s the fear and anger in your final two paras that bear further examination. I recommend you do that on your own rather than with this man in tow.
He doesnt get to call the shots. It’s not about whether you’re all right with holding hands, if you don’t want to then don’t. And if you dont know if you want to, then it’s time to wise up on what you want rather than being highly reactive to what they do, don’t do, say, or dont say.
butterfly-
totally agree with the comments above and have a couple of my own:
i recently went on a few (4) dates with a guy who (it took me a month to realize) totally fast-forwarded me, texted me incessantly, talked about what we’d do together, etc. …then he disappeared. was he full of shit? no idea. did i do something wrong? no idea. was he immature (for 52 years old) and childishly impulsive? oh, hells yeah.
i think the guy you dated was probably full of shit. yoghurt is right, what’s with the female friends (what, he can’t do stuff with male friends? notice how his approach to his life sounded perfectly reasonable in the moment and like he’s a playa a few days later), the “do you feel safe talk”, and acting like he’s known you forever (hand holding, arm around the shoulder, etc). he was totally trying to get you into bed. and when you proved not immediately compliant, that was too much effort for him.
good riddance.
and actually, here’s flag 1 – he wanted you to meet him the same day. now, i’m all for spontaneity, but every time i’ve met a guy the same day, even in the daylight, he has ALWAYS more or less come straight out and asked me for sex. i know my sample size is small, but its 100% predictive for me.
EVEN SO – grace is right about the fear and anger in your last two paragraphs. remember, nobody owes us anything, and we do not owe anyone anything. …and the universe doesn’t owe us a relationship (would that it did, but apparently it doesn’t). honey, you need to work on the fact that you need him, regardless of what he is or is not showing you, to be a certain way. you need more tolerance (or, actually, less) for this type of bullshit. you must decide for yourself if you like how someone treats you, if they’re behaving in a reasonable way – because there is NO such thing as instant relationship. and you must not put your vulnerability right into their hands.
….which (sorry) is exactly what you did, as evidenced by the text ping pong. no, butterfly, do not tell a guy, in text or otherwise, “its ok if we’re not a match”. screw that. he’s not that special. and you’re busy doing other things. if he likes you, he will come to you and then you see if you want to entertain him further. but i’m proud of you for dropping it.
…AND…almost all guys will say ANYthing early on – and not just to get you into bed. in the moment, its the truth – but then the moment passes. and you can’t know if they’re in earnest until a couple of months have gone by and the first flush of infatuation has given way to something real.
he was a playa trying to seem like a nice guy. all that who calls who stuff was flag 4 – if a guy likes us, he doesn’t quibble about who calls whom, he just calls.
work on you.
big hug.
This whole scenario sends out a few red flag signals. I think you may be over analysing the situation. You meet this guy online and go on a blind date quite quickly,you say yourself it was a meet and greet. In this short space of time over an ice cream he has blindsided you with a lot of details bout having many women friends, his ex was too clingy, and basically telling you the things he may want you to hear to make him sound like a good guy.RED FLAGS. Why did he feel the need to ask if you felt safe with him, that would make me feel very aware, and the glib comment about following you home. Very creepy from someone you have just met for an ice cream. I think you may find that you could be adding yourself to his harem if you were to further indulge your time with him. I would not over think the situation, it was ONE meet and greet and ONE ice cream and not worthy of allowing him to kiss you. He was trying to lay on the charm to keep you invested.
Butterfly:
The first thing that strikes me is this: why would someone ask you if you feel safe with him? That sounds really creepy!
Also, I think the whole Lets not play games/ Feel free to call whenever you want BS is actually a trap. It´s a male way of testing you and your boundaries – are you the type of woman who´ll put up with pursuing him and keep a relationship going, not asking much effort from him? – that sort of thing. I can imagine some immature guy saying those things to gauge how interested you are in him, and how much effort he´ll have to put into getting you to bed.
It´s okay to open up and forget the protocol once you´ve dated a while and you have an actual relationship, but in this case you hardly know each other!
My advice would be to stop wondering about his motivations, and ask yourself if YOU like him and the way he´s treating you.
Hey Butterfly, I’ve spent the better part of a year and a half focusing on me and reading BR (combined with 5 years of therapy several years ago..BR worked better) and recently ventured out into the online dating scene. You really aren’t losing out here. I approach a first date/meet and greet as a first date/meet and greet. Even though the guy may look great online, it’s the in-person thing that counts. The only thing I’m thinking during the first encounter is do I want to see this guy again. That’s it. Mostly the answer has been nope, even if he wanted to see me. There has been only two guys I wanted to see a second time, one thought that a good idea for a second date was at his house. Nope. Second guy said he’d call this weekend and hasn’t. Oh well. Second thing, I don’t text. The minute a guy starts with, “text me…”, I respond I don’t text. We can talk on the phone but texting doesn’t work for me. I’ve also encountered that awkward kissing thing. Also, I don’t do same day date/meet and greets, although that’s only come up once. Since I’ve walked in your shoes recently, I think I see many red flags: He talked, you listened; His friends are women (he has a harem?); Ex was too clingy (she had needs)? All the dating advice says no ex’s on the first meeting. Feel safe? Doth the guy protest too loudly? Followed up by following you home? Nope. Not safe at all. You discuss calling one another and then resort to texting? He’s talking about future stuff and you are meeting for the first time? I don’t think I know enough about a guy after coffee, a drink, and/or dinner other than do I want to see him a second time. No need for being bitter and distrusting. Read everything Nat has written on dating. She’s right. Having lived the scenario you described, I wouldn’t want to see this guy a second time.
Butterfly
There’s a really good post on here (sorry, can’t do the link but search for it)”ten signs he only wants you for sex” (something like that). His behaviour ticks a lot of the boxes. Everything he did was an attempt to soften you up for that sole purpose. Kissing and holding hands after an ice cream? He wasn’t and isn’t looking for a relationship and no doubt he will keep hitting on women until he gets one who falls for it – and wont see him for dust afterwards. Be very glad that person isn’t you. You feel hurt because you feel that something was offered and then inexplicably taken off the table, and perhaps you think its because you did something wrong or you werent good enough, but it was a bogus offer, and it was nothing to do with your qualities. How could it have been, he didn’t know you. It feels like a rejection but it wasn’t. He doesn’t want a relationship -with anyone. I think it’s a really hard thing for women to grasp sometimes – I’ve struggled with it myself – because that isn’t how most of us work, most of the time.
Yes. Young girls should (or already?) know this about guys today, or at least- Players. I’m glad it wasn’t like this when I was in my twenties- dating was more relaxed and straightforward. This new generation is well studied on how to pick up as many women as possible with bogus promises, ego injury- “playfully insult her, this is called ‘the neg”, and faux challenge. They want your mind, body and soul into it, and then they justify the drop, they have engineered it. Just google, “The Game”, “The Fade”, etc. These guys know the difference between right and wrong, and willfully (deliberately, gleefully?) try to date you by giving you a fake sense of safety and then win your affections, and pull the rug under you. They even have a phrase for it, I can’t bring myself to type it. They will argue that your job is to be the gatekeeper, and judging from the posts below- this means you basically can never let your guard down, or go past kissing. In real life, they may come across as nice guys with good jobs and friends, but their (masked) intentions and apathy (after the fact) show undeniable degenerate behavior. They seem to shrug it off as “she should have known.’ This appears to be an uneasy time to be dating, a real disintegration of basic human respect and decency. Read these, and then let’s figure out once and for all how to find the nice guys to marry and keep forever, no matter what age. These are all written by men; from a pedestal point of view I might add, without your permission. They are all “just being honest” and gracing us with their wisdom, trying to help women navigate men, because, don’t you know- it is 100% your job? LUCKY US! Tee hee hee.
1) Almost sociopathic; personality disordered;
2) Proverbial “nice married guy” he is in his late 30s. Read his retort, which is a “Men take no responsibility, for promises made via actions or words , we get out of jail free every time card because it was in the moment” he pulls out:
http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/men-look-for-sex-and-find-love-women-look-for-love-and-find-sex/
3) This guy’s blog is kinda funny, – he is in his 20s…. he’s “trying to help women understand men”
http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2012/01/what-men-think-about-older-women.html
anon
As my brother said, you can find
Each and Every opinion on the Internet. What are you going to do, give equal credence to it all? I like this blog as nat doesn’t do the big generalisations, including men just want sex and all women over thirty are no longer attractive. Undoubtedly there are people who believe that but what are they to me? I got a lesson in this when l was reading some rant about divorce from a Christian blogger, got to the end and saw the bloggers pic, some kid in his very early twenties, if that, in his messy bedroom. I just laughed, mainly at myself for allowing this person to cause me a moments discomfiture.
Conversely, on another blog a man waded in and commented “of course older women are beautiful. All women are beautiful because they are women. Is he wrong? As for “all men want is sex” I am moving in circles where we save sex for marriage. You may find that weird, but there are plenty of us. none of this men just want sex advice applies to me. I find it not to be true, even among the non religious. I don’t know those men and they wouldn’t want me anyway cos I’m not up for it, so no problem.
While we should be open to other opinions, ask yourself some basic questions before you take it on board. Do I see honesty, respect for others regardless of looks,age wealth, gender? Is there truth and honesty? Is there compassion, wisdom? Do they see the value of a human being or are we just trading commodities. And my final retort is from Isaiah, “youths grow tired and weary, young men stumble and fall.” they’re not that special either.
Grace, the second blog is pretty popular in the US, and the generalization doesn’t mean men want just sex- they want your attention, time and heart and hope into it, EVEN if girls are being cautious and chaste, they are still getting their hopes up, and yet not moving closer to a commitment, as the men are obviously keeping their options open. Yes, It is important to not take on the attitudes and opinions of the unscrupulous, but where is our virtue getting us? Boundries, no Contact, a clean and healthy, honest life are great for our emotional health and protecting us from players, and pleasing to God. But it isn’t getting us what we really need? This can be articulated by what Magnolia is feeling- it is bone lonely in that ivory tower, feels like very inadequate compensation for not having a close family and BELONGING somewhere to some one every day. I feel it is becoming a heavy cross to bear. You might feel like it is enough to go to church and have nice friends, but will it be enough in a year- or five? And those young blogger guys are not lonely, they are getting away with it, I just don’t see them falling weary- like Isaiah does. Just some observations, if you see it more optimistically, great. Those blogs cover the same topics that this one does- relationships, from a guys point of view. The tone is cocky, as they have more time and less emotion, so it is an unequal playing field for the women who are sick of being single. That’s great you have met these quality people at church, that’s not every one’s story. I found Church to be great for spiritual benefits and families, but really not much there for single people.
Anon
It’s not an ivory tower. With my boundaries and values in tact I have more friends and have met a man. It’s because I have the inner security to venture out. After an abusive relationship, followed by the King of Playas, for literally years I wouldn’t speak to men but now I trust people in a way I didn’t before because my core is strong. It didn’t just come to me. I worked very hard.
Assertiveness doesn’t push people away (except the ones you want to push away). I am very happy to have robust discussions with people. It’s make me more interesting, I think, and makes me more interested. I found myself saying, in church, “I’m not arguing with you. I’m interested in exploring what you said.” You don’t have to run people over, nor do you have to seethe in silence.
I don’t believe playas are as happy as you think they are. There’s something shallow and hollow about it all. If it was that satisfying they wouldn’t keep chasing and chasing. And there WILL be a day of reckoning, unless they’re Hugh Hefner. As an 80 plus man said to me, long after his dissolute youth had gone, “what are beautiful girls to me now?”. As for blog no. 2, I wouldn’t put him in the playa category. Some of his advice does rub me up the wrong way but I agree with his main premise – if what you are doing isn’t working for you, then change it. I go a little further, as this blog has prompted me to, if what you BELIEVE isn’t working for you, change it. Is what YOU believe working for you? Does it make you feel optimistic? Happy, Hopeful?
There is no shortage of decent men. I go to a church in the City (this den of iniquity) which must have over two dozen single men. They’re probably wondering where all the women are. There are dozens of churches, if you still have an interest in that direction, try a few more. Or a lot more. Our church has activities for all age groups, married, single and families, and we all mix with each other. The previous church I went to I found stultifying (though I still got a lot from it). Even if there were a shortage of decent men, who’s to say you won’t find one of the rare specimens? I’m 47 so it’s not like I’m in the top category of desirability either.
You are sick of being single? It’s ironic, but from that state of mind it’s kinda difficult to meet someone. Only a certain type of man (that you don’t want) is interested in a woman who is sick of being single. Enjoy you freedom. I truly believe, despite what you have said, that one day you’ll be wishing you could have the bed to yourself, if just for one week!
I finish with a quote from “What Smart Women Know” (written by a man and a woman, a couple)
“Being married to the wrong man is like being in prison, except you have to cook your own meals.”
There truly are worse fates than being single. When you realise that and are enjoying doing your own thing, when life seems like an adventure, a promising man will come along and muck it up!
PS I met the man at church,
anon
I’m not very good at the Bible-quoting yet, but what’s that one about ‘feasting your mind on what is holy and what is good’?
I know how lonely it is in the ivory tower (and I’ve a child, so I’m really one of the lucky ones) but I don’t think that the answer is to pay too much attention to these silly men and their silly books and silly blogs where they expound their silly ideas. The way to ‘fight’ them isn’t to read them and ruminate over them and get angry and upset and lie awake at night trying to come up with arguments to disprove them, the BEST way of dealing with them is to get out and show that it’s much better and happier to live a life with truly healthy self-esteem. And it’s better to look out for other people than it is to constantly try to big yourself up by discounting and undermining other people’s feelings.
I’ve come to the conclusion that God actually wants us to be happy and he wants us to have healthy self-esteem. If reading the drivel that these men spout isn’t helping you in that then bin them off. If God is looking to challenge them, he’ll do it by working from the ground up, cos that’s what he does.
Yoghourt,
I absolutely agree. There are men around who get off on hurting and humiliating women. But I am 47 and have a fair few relationships and none of them, with the possible exception of the MM were at all like that. The guys who write this stuff purport to speak for all men but they speak only for themselves. Don’t listen to them. Don’t give their toxic rubbish the time or headspace.
Anon, this is bonkers. A twenty something year old boy trying to help women understand men?… I totally agree with Grace and Yoghurt. Taking an extreme example, I know that rapists and murderers exist, but I don’t wish to waste my time finding out about them to *prevent* me becoming a victim. If I spent a lot of time reading about them, I’m sure I’d think the world was full of them and it might fill me with fear and inhibit my life in some way.
The only sword and shield you need to protect yourself against a playa is to have solid self worth. If you wish to get down in the gutter, you’ll easily find cr*p. And I know enough decent men amongst my friends and family to know not every guy is an EUM or a playa.
@Grace comment to Unsure
Well said…. “Let him waste someone else’s time” cause that is exactly what they tend to do. And On to the NEXT>>>>> until she figures me out. Not really doing any self work on their own deep rooted issues. Sad to say but It’s been an epidemic lately.
Yes, very well said…..
@ButterflySings
This story sounds all too familiar. It was a blind date(no explanations really owed)and when you told him that you were ok if you weren’t a good match “Ouch!” you were giving him an easy “EXIT”. I have been in your shoes love. You did for him what he simply could not do for himself and to be honest he may have taken this as YOU “REJECTING HIM” and men especially don’t handle rejection very well. An Ass clown non the least. The dissapearing act is the COWARD’S way; less painful and less work on their part. It’s not like you guys were talking or were emotionally invested. It’s just what it was a blind date that didn’t have a chance to move on to the next date; due to him just simply not being interested or taking your easy exit as you not being interested as well. I’d say “DEUCES” to this one. Good luck. 🙂
@ButterflySings… Yeah @P is right on. I left the most important part out. It’s there in hindsight. He was looking for one thing…. Sex… You did right to give him an easy exit…count it all JOY.
I found this site via a link from Lovefraud and I’m so glad i did!! I have been reading in the background for 2/3 weeks and find the articles I have read to be inspiring, common sense and comforting.
I am having a bad day today.My story spans 15 years and when I look back I cannot believe how stupid and naive I have been.
My inner child is a survivor, one that was bullied and abused by my father and who had a mother who did not nurture. Although strong in lots of ways, when someone is nice to me or lies to me – I fall!
Today I got rid of all photos and texts from someone who promised me a future…. after he had left his wife of course AND got rid of the girl friend! Sadly he conned me for 12 years with excuses, lies, deception and making out I was the crazy one! I was so desperate for the life he promised me I went along with it.
I have been doing fine, til today… i am willing him to text or phone. I have been assertive- at long last! and I guess from reading this article he has given me my answer!
Willow,
OK, so you have been involved with a future-faking MM for *12 years*, and he also has a girl friend? WHY do you want this utterly selfish man to text or phone you? It sounds like you have gotten to the “enough” point by ditching the photos and deleting the texts. Perhaps it is time to go No Contact with HIM? Why stick around to be one of three???
I ask as a person who was in your shoes just a few months ago. My affair lasted 3 years, and ended abruptly when I found out that not only was he NOT planning to leave his wife any time soon, but he’d had another OW in the woodwork, and he’d been “with” her, too, for over ten years!
I have been NC with him for 2 months now, and finally I’m getting some much-needed perspective.
Please take hold of whatever self-respect you have left and GET OUT!!! You have wasted too many years on this man. If he has not “chosen” to be with you after 12 years, what could possibly change to make him change his mind? You are worth more than this!
Learner- thanks. I ended it some time ago, by setting myself some boundaries at long last!
I was having a bad day yesterday- feeling crap for being such a fool.The texts and photos brought it all back. All the lies!
Reading the posts and articles on here keeps me strong. Like many others in similar positions my emotions are in turmoil. I am moving forward-moving on!
Thank you.
Willow – I have a similar childhood background to you, so I’m the same, if someone gives me affection or attention, I fall!
I also follow Lovefraud, and you will know they call the initial attention of these men, ‘Love bombing.’ This man has played you along for twelve years, and I suspect if you stick to no contact (see Nat’s book) he will suddenly creep back. Hopefully by that time you’ll be stronger and see how you are better off without him.
There’s another book called ‘Don’t Call That Man!, that helped me when I was in a similar situation.
Be strong, keep your dignity, and Don’t Call That Man!!
Seaside- I won’t! I will also get a copy of the book. Thanks.
I have read lots and lots of books, as well as the posts. I am learning alot about myself. At first I was obsessed with finding out why he behaved the way he does, I wanted to know how his mind worked and his motivation. I have come to the conclusion he is a sociopath who wants control, power and sex. he uses people to meet his needs.
When I was ‘love bombed’ I thought I’d met my soulmate. He pursued me for a number of years and of course I thought that anyone who would chase after me for that length of time must be serious. He promised me the earth! He had a complicated life which he was going to’sort out’ so we could be together.
Even though he said he has no feelings for the OW- he owns a property with her and spends months away (overseas) trying to sell it!! Over the years I have been devastated by the things he has done. I wish I’d found these sites years ago-then I would have known what was going on.
He is a very convincing liar! I realise I was no more than a possession, a collectable.
I just need to break the trauma bond completely. My head knows what to do but somedays my heart misses the ‘love bombing’ illusion.
Willow,
So glad to hear that you were assertive with him and ended it. Phew! That was the best thing you could do for yourself, and to end the pain of waiting for a MM. I can fully relate to the “feeling like a fool” and the devastation that comes with realizing you have been used by a mentally unhealthy man. I used to cry when I heard the songs “Jar of Hearts” and “Gallery” as they described how I felt also – part of a “collection” of women. The exMM often spoke of his music collection and his photo collections – apparently he likes to collect all manner of things/people. It sounds like you have been involved with a collector, too.
I went to the lovefraud site, and indeed, much seems to describe the exMM also (although quiet, he seems to revel in any power, control and sex he can manipulate out of people). Some of the ideas made me nauseated with recognition. I was tempted to buy the book, but I may save that for another time. I am really focusing on understanding *myself* right now, and trying not to analyze or wonder about *him* and his issues. I hope you are doing the same Willow – working on showing yourself forgiveness and understanding how your troubled past may influence the choices you make today. You don’t need the MM to be nice to you – you can be nice to yourself and validate yourself. Be loving towards YOU. Love bomb yourself with *sincere* love! You mentioned having read many books – Have you downloaded Natalie’s books? Hugs and strength to you xo
Learner and seaside,
Thank you so much for your support.
I intend to download the books!xxx
I find that I’m very good with being assertive in most other relationship. However, when it comes to relationships with men, I tend to want to turn the blame on myself even though irrational. Last Friday my AC hugely disrespected me. I was appalled initially, but backtracked and apologized for my reaction. I realize this behavior was the exact thing I witnessed between my mom and dad. He was married and we were his second family. I’m 32 and still trying to develop healthy relationships with men and healthy beliefs about relationships.
I completely relate to this Kristin and feel your words. I too have found myself apologizing for the disrespect of a man to that same man. You’ve helped me realize that it can also be deep-rooted from unresolved family issues. I never wanted to bring on the wrath of my father because he could be a really mean guy when he was angry. Funny, I can talk with him about anything today, but who he was then left quite an impression on me and I never connected the dots on the impact that could have on my interactions with men until just this moment. I guess one way to overcome this mental correlation is to realize that was their problem/issue, not ours and they didn’t do a great job in always making us feel loved, safe, trusted and protected as children. Then us realizing, we are not that child anymore and it’s okay for us to love, trust and protect ourselves, our minds, our bodies and our hearts. I think it’s fantastic that you made this self-discovery so early in life. On the path to getting back my assertiveness and I wish you the same on your journey. 🙂
Nat hits the nail on the head . To scared to say no because you fear there gone for good . I susspect my ac of cheating , i know he is but every time i asked hed deny and lie then hed come out with the line , well if you dont want me to contact you i wont . Hang on this is the man who os meant to care for me but notenough to walk away. He knows ill crumble and shutup . So he does his cold phase whilst new girl preocupie mind . Me ill get odd text or odd shag to keep me on back burner because he knows i love him , but the sickness in my stomach wont go away and i vent in car screaming and crying how much it hurts and i hate him . Then i read bg and i come to my senses , three days no contact since i made a king size pleb and asked if he still wanted me in his life , avoidence and mo direct answer and usually exscuses ensued , im not that women any more i may be crying wondering what so great about new girl but im not that women any more. I may rember all the tomes he loving and affection but its tainted with yhe lies . Im not that women any more i wont beg for crumbs ever again , mot where i got so low i asked god that i didnt have to wake up and cope with the obbesive thinking im not that women ANYMORE . Xx
I’m currently the other man in a relationship with a woman who is totally noncommittal to any kind of future. She comes over, we have fun and she spends the night, and then she’s at home and I’m here alone. I was in an awful marriage and ended things, but she has yet to show any initiative to do that (although that’s what she says she WANTS, but doesn’t know that she can).
Our time together has usually been great, and she says that she loves me. I’ve tried to end things, but I’m admittedly weak when it comes to her. What self-esteem that I had has been gone for a while because I keep choosing to participate in this relationship that may or may not go anywhere. I’m hoping for more from this relationship, but at this point I have no idea if I’ll ever get it. Part of me wonders if I’m staying in it because it “works” for me.
I’ve whined about this for far too long and I guess I need to either accept what it is or do something about it, but there are times when I feel like an alcoholic that just can’t seem to put the bottle down. I’m fearful that if I let this go, that that’s it for me. That I’ll be a divorced and lonely dad whom no one wants to be with.
I’m sorry for the tone of this comment, but I’m writing from a place of discouragement and sadness.
Gene
“I’ll be a divorced and lonely dad that no one wants to be with.”
I for one would have no qualms about dating a single father provided he was actually single and not, for instance, having an affair with a married woman. If you genuinely want a proper relationship then there’s a price to pay. a time to really be single and find your feet after the divorce. We can’t cling onto these people until we feel ready or better or more hopeful. They are part of the problem not the solution.
they make you more fearful, more insecure, more clingy and time just passes.
Look at the kind of relationship you want. Maybe it’s time to quit the excitement of affairs and go for something real.
gene-
adding to what grace said –
if you choose to be alone for a while, you’ll be ok. if you are alone for a while, even if its not your choice, you’ll be ok.
its the fear that’s keeping you boxed in, but we’re all here to tell you there’s nothing to fear but fear itself.
be brave enough to believe that you don’t the crumbs of that OM relationshiT that’s already making you feel like crap. be brave enough to know you can hack it on your own. be brave enough to know there are LOTS of women out there looking for warm, open guys who can be genuine and who really want something real.
don’t fear the fear. but don’t let it keep you from believing enough, aiming high enough. dump her. trust me – you’ll have sex again, you’ll have warmth again, you’ll have love again.
….crap. well, will you listen to me.. i should take my own advice, shouldn’t i…
@ Awakened, Grace, Yoghurt, & P.
Thank you VERY much for your insight and wisdom. Your words have really helped lift my spirits!
I actually agree.
Don’t roll your eyes (yet), but I decided to call him after I sent this message and lo and behold he said he did think I was rejecting him. He said he hadn’t called because he thought I didn’t want to talk to him. Then a few minutes later he said he still was planning on calling me, blah, blah, blah.
But, I have to say even after we cleared the air, he proceeded to tell me how things would go: he’d call me when he had time to go out and I would do the same (insert WTF face palm here). The funny thing is when I became assertive and ended the conversation (b/c I thought this was bs) he proceeded to try and take back control by calling me “baby” and sweet-talking about how he would call me back. As the syrupy lies rolled off his tongue, I realized my reaction was the exact same as it was when he responded by text: “This is not the guy for me”. Click (or “flush” as NML would say).
I know I shouldn’t have called. But, I did. I know I didn’t need closure, after all I didn’t and don’t know this guy from Adam. I guess it was just my ego that needed to be reassured.
I just came back here and saw your messages and realized that I have more work to do on this actual dating thing. Not only did your messages help me to see that I put too much thought on a first meeting, but that hand-holding and kissing (briefly, very, very briefly) is something that I need to hold off on as well. I was letting him lead and it’s making me think way back to times when it was the right guy and he wasn’t intimidated or turned off if I asserted myself in communicating and expression. In fact, I usually get along well with guys — but in the dating world with some men (usually the more alpha-esque males) I find I don’t want to put forth my alpha female energy because I don’t want to have a back and forth the entire time, so around these type of men I do find myself being more submissive than I usually am (and am very aware that I’m doing it). But, I also find that these type men really don’t care much about knowing the real me anyway, so it’s not that I’m presenting a fake me, it’s just a more quiet me.
I need to figure out a way to be more assertive with these kind of men– because for some odd reason I attract these kind of men. Maybe when I unleash my alpha female side, I’ll attract more submissive guys. 😉 Actually, I just want to attract one wonderful, mentally, spiritually healthy man.
Thank you for really helping me see and begin to understand that I was going with this guy’s flow. My goal is to become better in recognizing this in myself, because ultimately while yes, this guy definitely has some maturing to do on his end… I actually think I need to do some more on my end, at least in recognizing that I need to remain true to who I am regardless of how assertive his ego is.
Thank you again for your words of wisdom and encouragement, it is very much appreciated.
Hey ho Butterfly.
Glad it helped 🙂 And don’t feel bad about ringing the goat, it’s all the good if you’ve learnt from it and you won’t need to do it next time because you’ll be able to join the dots beforehand. These fellas are masters of leaving enough room for doubt and ambiguity – it lets them wander in and out of your life at will – and there are times when you need to cut through that ambiguity, if only to learn what’s behind it.
I wouldn’t worry too much about the whole ‘alpha-male/alpha-female’ business – nobody can force you into a submissive role if you don’t let them and you shouldn’t be aiming to do the same. You just need to be yourself, know your values and stick to your values.
If someone tries to hold your hand without your permission, for eg, you only need to pull it away and, if they question it, smile and say “I don’t know you well enough yet to know if I want to hold your hand”. You don’t have to explain or berate or get angry or persuade them that you’re right, you just state your position and let them suck it up (unless they refuse to respect your boundaries, in which case you run away, fast).
I’d also watch out – and I say this as someone who got myself in that mess – for playing the role of the ‘listener’ too much in your interactions. It’s a good quality to have, but you don’t want to end up as the person who always listens and doesn’t get the chance to assert their own personality and needs, you end up a) attracting people who want to talk about themselves endlessly and they’re generally not a good bet and b) it ends up being really tiresome and difficult and you ultimately feel taken-advantage-of.
Being a good listener is generally a good quality to have but you are dating as yourself, not a non-judgemental, ever-sympathetic listener. You need to be judgemental and unsympathetic at times in dating if you’re going to find the right person.
Yoghurt, I wish I could download your words and press “re-play”. I didn’t realize until I posted and really began to read and let the responses sink in, that in being the cool girl and having a “going with the flow” attitude (as anything else always seemed to imply being “uptight” or negative connotations) that I was really just going with “his” flow. I am simply blown away that I didn’t get it before, but man oh man do I get it now. I do believe there is a healthy “going with the flow” but the kind I’ve been experiencing has not been in that category (yet :-). I just need to get better at recognizing the difference. Can’t say Gracias enough!!!
‘going with the flow’ is right up there with ‘free spirit’, ‘party animal’ and ‘laid-back’ on my list of Phrases That I Hate.
They’re all lovely things to be in a completely innocent context, but as soon as you start applying them to relationships you find that they mean things like ‘pushover’, ‘unreliable’, ‘promiscuous’ and ‘no self-respect’. I’ve been any and all of these things in my time, so I feel pretty confident in telling you that it’s all a Big Con.
Fwiw, though, I think that you’ve done really well – you’d moreorless kicked him to the curb even though he upset you. Next time you meet one of these charmers, you’ll kick him to the curb without getting upset. Onwards and upwards!
For the longest time I was my own worse enemy until I finally was able to get abetter sense of self and chop away much of the negativity in my life. That being said, the one thing that still constantly pushes my boundaries (ebbs and flows it seems) is my mother. She’s 61 and we have always had a very tenuous relationship from the time I was 12 on. Logically, I realize she won’t change but somehow emotionally and psychologically there is stillthis need to get approval from her and hope that she will change and live up to her (never met) promises -even though I am aware it won’t happen). As of late, due to a nasty blow she delivered to me after I took of her after being hospitalized, it finally caused me to start sticking up for myself more without resorting to childish screaming or running away, However, that being said, I can’t stand being around her and my stress levels go through the roof whenever I am around her (which is often). Being the youngest, I was always expected to be her perfect little angel and do as she said and apparently, that obligation was in place until recently. My sister was the wild promiscuous drunk who finally cleaned up her life and has done rather well but is still not to be trusted. Lately, my mother has formed a closer relationship with my sister and suddenly I am in enemy territory. This isn’t the first time my mother has done this and she switches her alliances whenever she feels like it. I was expected to be the perfect girl and take care of her during her illnesses and times of deep depression, but during my time of need, I was all but ignored and abandoned (pushed aside in the interests of my sister and her son – my sister being totally out of control then). And now, I refuse to play her little games and she is angry. Also, after she got after the hospital, she started an affair (her 3rd one after many years) with a man she had an affair with before back in the 1970’s after meeting up on FB again, decided she wants to move up to be near him and her childhood home (where she was considered a beautiful desirable woman in her youth) and relive her youth, I guess or fix her past in any case. Plus, it will make her closer to my sister and her kids in terms of location. This doesn’t bother me in the slightest and I don’t feel left out, but the part that bugs me is that suddenly I am the enemy and I am expected to cater to her every whim, need, and she treats me like a child! I am really at the boiling (read breaking)point and I feel like I am about ready to explode! I also hate the fact that she is incredibly judgmental of me and my life and of others around her. She actually had the nerve to scoff at a man having an affair on his wife when she is doing the same. When I confronted her about continuing the affair with her guy, she laughed at me and said I was crazy and that’s he just a friend. LOL! When I already know her patterns (seen most of my life) and she admitted to me when she was in the hospital but she can’t recall it. The list of grievances I have against her are vast and I suffered a lot of neglect and emotional/psychological abuse at her hands (even though she loves to be the Florence Nightingale of other people). Anyway, sorry for the long rant, I am rambling but this article forced me to touch on a delicate nerve.
P.S. Excellent article as always. 🙂
This is fab, thanks Natalie 🙂
Dunno if this is useful to anyone, but I did a course at work on dealing with difficult people, which I found really useful for assertiveness.
They used Berne’s transactional analysis, which basically says that the best way to approach any difficult situation is to do so as an adult to an adult. If you approach a problem as a ‘parent’ (the ‘taught’ role “I know best and this is what you need to do”) and try to assume control, you force the other person into the role of ‘child’, which is often truculent and angry. Similarly, if you go in as a ‘child’ (the ‘felt’ role – emotional and uncontrolled) then it gives the other person free rein to be the parent and try to force their own agenda through.
If you go in with the attitude of “I’m an adult and you’re an adult and we both want x (providing that x is reasonable and you both really do want that) then it gives both parties the opportunity to state their own position and reach a solution.
I found that a really useful model to keep in mind for awkward situations and it generally works. It’s very difficult to behave like either a parent or a child with someone who is behaving like an adult.
Yogurt, I’m so glad you mentioned this. I learned this in sales training and have used it quite often without even thinking. I never once thought of having it in the forefront of my mind with personal situations. In sales I use it to steer the conversation, because I’m in the advisory positon it is necessary for me to be in parent mode sometimes but never the child mode. When it comes to the client making a final decision, I steer the conversation back to adult mode because I want the decision to use my services to be theirs and theirs alone. Because if its not then it becomes a bad sale afterwards, either they cancel or feel they bought something they didnt really want, which is not advantageous to me. Wow, you’re right ac/eu have a way of putting you in the child mode, the key is to keep your wits and self esteem about you and keep yourself in the adult mode. Which is what Natalie is referring to here on being assertive. Operate in the adult mode and you wont be sold a relationship that you find out later is not what you wanted.
Oh and further expanding on what Nats post, I do sometimes lose the sale in the adult mode. They either dont want to pay for what I have to offer or say no due to preconcieved notions they already had coming in. Or sometimes, they are courting another ‘sales rep’ and like them better than they like me. 🙂 Its all good though!
Cheer sm 🙂
Wow – I hadn’t even thought of it in terms of ACs, I was thinking primarily in terms of my mother (who, bless her, I love, but can be the ultimate child-parent when she gets going).
I suppose, thinking on it, that the mistake that I’ve always made with ACs and the like is assuming that our ‘x’ is the same without actually stating it. It’s really easy to assume that “we both want our relationship to work” whereas ‘x’ should be “we both want to feel happy, fulfilled, respected and safe”.
As a side-comment, isn’t it weird how we often fail to apply all the skills and intelligence in relationships when we use them every day without work? Give me a roomful of teenagers and I’m absolutely confident. Give me one messed-up, thoughtless, selfish bloke and suddenly the sun rises and sets by what he thinks of me. Why is this?
yoghurt-
because he puts you in child mode. because he flips that switch in you, that many of us have, that puts you into approval-seeking mode. somebody installed that switch in you, you weren’t born that way…i’m guessing your mom.
so the idea is to become more and more aware of the switch and when it gets thrown – and realize the reaction you’re having isn’t about the guy who threw it, its really about you and what you need – he’s just the object of it.
xox
@cc, truth=freedom, Lilia, runnergirl & Mymble,
I also say thank you. I just read your comments. I’m having a bit of a sleep-less night processing much of these dating boundaries I need to develop or re-develop for myself. It has nothing to do with that guy. It has everything to do with me.
I realized from the real words you guys shared: I really do have some more work to do. There are quite a few boundaries I didn’t even realize I was not only allowing him, but myself, to cross.
Your words also make me really glad that I found the courage to ask about this because it’s really opened/opening my eyes to the fact that I need to wise up and be a lot more aware/assertive in the dating world and have a lot lower tolerance for bs (one of you said this and I can’t tell you what a wake up call that was). But, the truth is I really don’t like conflict and I think I need to go back to the drawing board some more before I date. You guys are like relationship angels. Many blessings to you all.
butterfly-
good for you. and if it helps solidify your point of view…
reading your updated post on your conversation with him brought into sharper than i found comfortable relief a couple of months’ long interaction i had with a narcissistic, lying, harem-having, future-faking, using, lothario AC – i know that sounded nasty, but this guy pulled every trick in the book, including promising relationship, telling me he loved me, and referring to his huge (HUUUUUGE) wedding tackle so he could get me to feed and house him (yes, literally, feed and house).
your guy sounds eXACtly like this guy, completely, utterly, full of self-righteous, manipulative, mind-fucking crap.
it took you a couple flyovers before you did enough reconnaissance, but you ultimately flushed him. well done. its good experience, and now you know what to work on. we ALL need that.
big hugs.
HELP
how do you guys deal with the anger side of it ?????????? i feel like revenge but i havent as i know its not the right path , i know id been happy to stay as it was and its based on the fact hes choose someone eles over me and thats all. how do you rid yourself of the anger ??? the sickness has gone from me on finding out i can ride the sadness etc but i dont want to hit rock bottom like last time and this site has given me strentgh after being a fool and disintingrating into a begging mess , please any help would be appreciated . x
tired:
I’m not surprised that you feel angry – it’s okay. You were treated badly and used by someone who didn’t act as though you or your feelings were important. You’d be odd if you WEREN’T angry – anger is there to protect you from situations like this one and a pretty normal response.
As far as I can see it, you’ve got three choices when it comes to your anger:
1) Turn it on him and go down the revenge route. Well done for not doing this – it only makes a bad situation worse and wouldn’t really get any of the results that you want. In fact you’d probably just feel silly and ashamed.
2) Turn your anger on yourself (this is usually my route) – torture yourself by going over and over the whole thing, picking yourself to pieces, trying to work out how and why she’s ‘better’ than you, obsessing over him/them and seeing him as the best thing since sliced bread and someone that you somwhow don’t ‘deserve’. Or else get into a similar situation again and twist yourself even more out of shape to make it work ‘this time’. I don’t know your story but it sounds as though you’ve been with this sort of dude and in this sort of situation before – isn’t that just like blaming yourself for what went wrong before and trying to fix it?
c) Use your anger productively and apply it to the men that you meet in the future. I don’t mean whapping them over the head with a pint glass on the first date (as tempting as that might be!) Instead, putting the energy into recognising the red flags and working out why you’re drawn to these situations and convincing yourself that you deserve more. And then drawing on this feeling for strength the next time someone expects you to hang around even though they’re fishing for someone else.
It is NOT OKAY to treat people and their feelings casually and it is NOT OKAY to make people feel like you’re feeling now. But he hasn’t learnt that lesson so far and he’s probably not going to learn it now, whatever you do. On the other hand, YOU can decide that it’s NOT OKAY to allow yourself to be treated like this and use your anger to protect yourself in the future. I’d advise doing that.
tired, yoghurt-
if it helps, this morning i woke up from a terrible dream about my ex-EUM, probably brought on by the fact that the first anniversary of our first date is september 2. that was nearly a year ago, which means its 7 months nearly to the day that our 4 1/2 month relationship broke up. i woke up hurting, aching, longing, wondering, and feeling angry, rejected and less than. man, do i know how to beat a dead horse. i mean, its like i dug up the horse so i could beat it again.
my point is that the anger and the pain can take a loooooooooooooooong time to process and get over. i think the point is to not aim it, as yoghurt said, at them (revenge) or ourselves (torture).
tired, i know its … tiring … but just be pissed off. don’t shoot it at anyone else – not him, or anyone he knows, not yourself or anyone you know. DO something with it, a variety of things – take a kickboxing class, or go on a hike, or meditate, or punch a pillow, or go out in the woods where no one can hear you and scream – or all of those.
you’re not alone and you’re not the only one. AND … drum roll … he’s NOT that special. he’s not. and there’s someone much, MUCH more special with you right now (you!) and out there for you in the future.
This rings bells with me cc.
In the week that marked the two-year anniversary since I last had sex (great), I’ve had son’s dad trying to ring at 2am and then suckering me in with a poor-me-give-me-sympathy story the next day (erm, don’t you keep a girlfriend for this sort of eventuality? Great), and his brother (?!) cracking onto me on fb chat (great).
Needless to say, championey that I am, I dealt with all of this in the most effective drama-reducing way that I could(and worked out how to turn off fb chat)…but I guess it’s like a whiff of chocolate when you’ve been on a strict diet for ages and ages. Part of me really just wants to leap in, be the centre of attention and make BIG HUGE mistakes ON PURPOSE.
So now I’m on some sort of weird comedown from grovelly text-messages and offers of appallingly unwise liaisons. Great.
BUT the nice thing about being a bit low these days is that it helps me to see a) how well and happy I feel most days b) how far I’ve come and c) that I really HAVE developed sufficient self-respect not only to be able to say NO but also to be greatly insulted. So it’s all to the good, really. I suppose.
hang in there, yoghurt-
and don’t fall for his crap. he’s still the same self-serving ass he always was, and no real good to you.
i know what you mean about making big huge mistakes on purpose – but really, if you absolutely must do that, please don’t do it with him … cuz I couldn’t bear it. you’ve come too far. go find someone else to make a mistake with…just … y’know … wear a condom… or two.
xoxoxox
Nah, I’m alright and I really don’t want to go making mistakes at all if I can help it, it won’t help.
It’s just like you were saying about digging up the horse to flog it again, something happens and you get sucked back into all the drama and that old perspective. And then you have to work your erse off to get back out of the hole and on an even keel.
It gets easier every time, though, right?
and thanks cc xx
Yoghurt
I’ve not really followed this thread, so forgive me if I’ve missed something but in skimming the posts here (as I’ve not the time for more right now) I notice the ‘dad’ is still trying to call you at 2am. He’s still acting like a total erse – on purpose! Who does he think he is continuing to bust your boundaries in that way?! I’m feeling a bit angry with him on your behalf, so am going to suggest that you don’t give his next day sob stories any space and simply let him know in no uncertain terms, once and for all, that being the father of your child does not give him access rights that extend to ringing your phone and disturbing your personal space (and your sleep) in the middle of the night. For some reason he is not getting the message that this infringement is just not on. Why is he not, is the question I am wondering.
ps You are championey! He is not.
fearless
I’ve actually given the very pared-down story on here, mostly (I should admit) because I’m not very proud of myself in it.
He rang me at 2am and sent text messages about how he ‘needed to talk’ and could I pick him up? could he come round? and so on – I was actually awake at the time and so just looked at my phone balefully. The next day, when he rang up about getting son, he apologised and said “It’s just that everything in my life is really going so well, I just sometimes get a bit panicky and wonder if I’m a good dad”.
fearless, I screeched at him. I ranted. I dragged up every mean thing he’d ever done and every privation that I’ve suffered as a result of being a single mother and told him that it was no doubt very easy to be nice to his gf when he had an extra person (me) to unload all the manky bits of his personality onto. I pointed out that he manages not to ring anyone that he respects when it’s 2am and that seeing as his gf got all the attention and treats, I didn’t see why I was the one being treated like the 24-hour helpline. And so on and so forth. It was quite horrible and he hung up in the middle, which I think is fair enough, actually, I wouldn’t have seen the benefit of listening to me either.
He came round then and grovelled a lot (I’m a ‘really good friend’ and he does respect me, apparently) and we’re on ‘good’ terms again, sort of. The bother is that, apart from these middle-of-the-night phone calls he doesn’t really put a toe wrong, is lovely to son, is lovely and accommodating to me (he fixed my hoover recently) and buys me presents for my birthday and things. I know that the received wisdom is that I should treat him with the very very barest level of civility but – truthfully – it seems churlish when he is a model of good deportment and very nice to me for over 99% of the time. And, tbh, when I’ve watched him fight and struggle to sort his life out over the past couple of years.
This happens when he drinks. He knows that he’s a bad drunk and increasingly doesn’t drink – it’s now an occurrence of every three months or so. And when he did used to frequently get drunk and depressive he always knew that I’d talk him through it when he rang – the fact is that really he stopped doing it (when he met his gf) before I’d put my foot down about it.
I feel really bad about it atm (both for being angry at him and for not being angry enough – can’t win. Typical) but tbh I’m just working on Not Dwelling on it. It’s just what happened.
Just to clarify – my phone’s on silent at night now so if he rings I just see it in the morning and shrug my shoulders.
The only difference this time was that I was aware of it at the time and got onto a thinking kick about it, which is my own fault. And being on the thinking kick is like sliding down back to the bottom of the well. I’m pretty savvy at climbing out of the well these days, but it still takes a little while and it’s blimmin annoying to go back to the bottom!
yogurt
he has a drink problem, even if it’s just once every three months. since you’ve tried everything else, i can only suggest you ignore it. if he calls at two am, ignore it. don’t mention it the next day. if he mentions it say “it’s fine. it’s not my problem” and leave it there. if he’s worried about being a good dad, say “that’s for you work out for yourself”.
i wouldn’t worry about this latest episode. No one died.
Looking to the future, though, you might want to start putting in some distance. I don’t think a new man is going to be so understanding of him calling you up at two am even if you don’t pick up, or giving you presents or fixing stuff around the house. You’re not his concubine.
I’m not in your situation and it must be awkward. You’ll figure it out.
Yea Grace, I know this – and I do usually (insofar as it is usual, which it isn’t) ignore his calls.
It is awkward and I don’t know what’s best to do (although tbh it’s easier knowing what to do when I feel a bit better than this!) Providentially, though, he’s going away for a fortnight which should give me a chance to sort my head out.
You’re right about the distance and no I don’t want to be a concubine. I’m still sort of glad that I didn’t have to fork out for a new hoover, though.
yoghurt-
agree with the above, AND…
ok, so you were churlish with him the morning after the 2am call. and maybe it would have been nice to be able to control yourself enough to say all that calmly. and i am all for being assertive and not aggressive.
but y’know what? what you said to him was TRUE. you weren’t being petty or on a high horse – you were speaking the objective truth. how dare he treat you as an AC all these years and then use you as the 24-hour helpline so he can seem like he has his shit together for the gf?
yes, going forward, calmness would be the order of the day. you’ve gotten it out. you’ve set him straight. and, honestly, good for him for groveling, that’s what he should have done. so, no more reacting to his drama if at all possible.
but still – be glad you said it, however you said it.
Thanks cc – that makes me feel better 🙂
I’m really not proud of myself. Also think that I’m suffering the ‘hangover’ of hoping to exercise some power over his feelings and decisions, which is not assertiveness but aggression (so I’m glad it failed).
BUT… in a way it needed doing. He is out of order and it’s probably good that he got a short sharp shock if it stops it.
Tired, it’s understandable that you are angry as all your hopes and dreams have been shattered. It took me quite a while to get angry, but when I did I tried a number of ways to release it. Some might sound a little strange, but they may help you. I called the exMM all the names under the sun whilst driving in my car (alone of course). I wrote an unsent letter detailing all the bad things he had ever done (then burnt it), you could try some strenuous exercise, a friend of mine suggested a punching bag with his picture on it!, I also conducted an imaginary discussion with him where he really copped it! I think expressing your rage in a healthy way is a good thing, and it made me feel better. Hang in there you really will feel better soon, hugs xx.
Thank you Natalie :-* I am actually having counselling at the moment, which was offered to me for free as a result of date rape earlier this year. A guy who claimed he was gay invited me to a party and spiked my drink. Obviously it’s impossible to assert yourself when you’re unconscious, but now I have to consider pressing charges. Going to court would be my nemesis. Every confrontation I’ve had with people who have hurt me has ended badly no matter how I phrased it, so I don’t know whether going through this will ultimately make me feel empowered and more able to be assertive in the future, or whether it will break me. Asserting yourself is only half the battle. Dealing with the consequences and standing your ground no matter what gets thrown at you is something else 🙁
Hi Crazybaby,
It is very, very unfortunate what you were forced to experience. No one should ever have to endure what you did. What occurred to you was not due to you lacking assertiveness– this man lied to you about his own sexuality and he spiked your drink. He is a cowardly criminal and premeditated every step he would do.
I rally behind you on this path toward becoming more assertive. Each day you go to court, you win. Each day you speak your truth, you win. I am realizing from the things that were shared with me here– that going with “his” flow and thinking things will not go our way, gives us a sense of hopelessness.
The small victories you’ve already accomplished: going to counseling, pressing charges, going to court– already show you have the power within and the courage within to withstand any stones this man or whomever may try to throw your way. I wish you well on your journey and know that what man has made for your downfall, God has made for your glory. (Don’t know your spiritual beliefs, but that was on my spirit to share). Please be safe, continue to be assertive and know that your voice matters.
Thank you for your kind words ButterflySings. I haven’t yet pressed formal charges because I am terrified of the ordeal involved in going to court and having his lawyer try to dispute my side of events. But I really like your idea of ‘winning’ each step of the way. If I can think of every time I assert myself as a victory, no matter how others react, then that somehow makes me feel better about it, and at least I know I’m being true to myself and validating my own feelings even when others dismiss them.
Its the over whelming sadness to. , a song triggered it this morning , how do u pick yourself up c
Tired- I find you have to take it a day at a time. Try to keep yourself busy. I know it can be very hard- yesterday I had a very bad day. Things do trigger your moods and set you back. I have in the past felt bereft and devasated. Also revenge- not worth it. The best revenge is to be good to yourself, ignore the AC and move on.
Read the posts on this site. Nats articles are so good. She gives reasons and common sense. Also by reading here you will realise you are not alone! All of us are on a journey of healing.
Thankyou youghurt , i am better than last week i was down on the floor trying to get him to man up and end it . I know the anger route would make me look stupid it pisses me off that yet again hes free to sail on shitting on other peeps , ill be fine and then a thought pops up , ie no more rides to gigs in van hell be with her now and it hurts like hell that he can just cast me out like i never exsisted , its those punches to the gut i find hard , most my friends in rlships so its hard getting out . Ive lived in la la land for five years with this bloke messing me round hot and cold and i found myself living but not living in real world , im away with faries half the tome as you say going over and over the hurt , and not wanting to participate in whats around me x thankyou for replying
Thing is this is the second time hes dumpedme should have know i had doubts second time round , this girl had gone so he used me till she came back . Even knowing what he had done i hoped hed changed we got so close just illision , my last words where a pop at him and he asked why i was having a pop , ive not heard for nearly four days and the pathetic side id running scared that ill mever hear again , whilst the strong side keeps saying be strong walk walk run . Why do i need this man iny life in anny form as nat says hes mot that special and im just a wuss to scared to go it alone!
What sickens me is that im site after seeing her he came to me , how could anyone be so heartless and cruel
This article is so true because everytime I expresed my feeling to my ex his response would be “well than I guess we should break up.” Many times I would often retract my feelings just so he would understand I don’t want to break up I just wanted him to chnage how things were. I am at 21 days no contact and although many times I feel great about this today i am having a really hard time. I keep wanting to go see him so he can “validate” how he feels for me. i want him to still love me and want to be with me. We broke up 5 months ago after a 6 year relationship and he is currently seeing someone. It killed me when i found out he was seeing someone because how could you move on so quick if you really cared about me. When I confronted him about this he said they aren’t together and that its not what I am thinking which makes me feel like they are just having sex. But is that supposed to make me feel better and how do I know if thats true. I sit here almost everyday wondering why do I still care when I know there are so many reasons to move on. But than on the other hand I think was he really that bad of a guy? I feel like by moving on I am realizing that I was wrong about him and that my judgement was off and that I dont have a good judge of character. I truly thought he was the one and although there was a great deal of issues that came up i really thought that we would get through everything.
Hopeless, you are the definition of love personified. You were in a relationship that allowed you to show, give and (hopefully) receive love. Being able to share that expression with THIS man has ended, but the love you have to share has not. Your spirit is beautiful. Serenity Prayer comes to mind when I read your words. This all is still very fresh of a breakup for you, the wounds still probably feel pretty new. You’re going through a grieving process and it’s natural to have all the feelings you do. My thoughts are to allow yourself to go through the process. And often the adage goes: if you love him/her: set them free. I really think this not only applies to him, but you as well. If you truly love yourself: set yourself free. So much more greater things are ahead.
P.S., and the next time you speak with him (as you will) try to remind yourself of this because it’s very comfortable going back to what’s familiar to us….even when we know it’s no good for us. I say this from experience and it’s not until I snapped out of it and realized it was okay for me to move on, that I did.
Hopeless
Don’t get involved with men who have issues or where the the relationship can only survive if he has to change. I know it sounds stupidly obvious but it took me years to get it. And look to what it is within you that finds them attractive where a more sensible woman would go NOT FOR ME. I realise that sensible isn’t romantic and we don’t get the same drama or to be the better person. We don’t get to be tested for endurance and patience. It might even be, gasp, a bit boring at times, a lot ordinary most of the time. But a relationship isn’t supposed to be Anna Karenina, or Wuthering Heights, or a soap opera. It’s two real, genuine, balanced, mature, self aware people choosing to be together.
stick to nc and while there are good and bad times don’t let too many days go by where all you’re doing is thinking about him. He really is not that special. Yes you were wrong about him. We’ve all done it, it doesn’t mean we have to spend our lives punishing ourselves for it.
There isn’t The One. There are seven billion people on the planet. If there was just one the likelihood of meeting him is vey small indeed. Rather there are many possibles, open your heart to it, in time. But not too much time!
Amen Grace
Hopeless – it’s also worth adding, I think, that where there’s a lot of drama and you’re pouring a lot of effort into changing someone, there ISN’T any progression in other areas of your life. The so-called ‘boredom’ is actually just you focusing on and getting on with other things because you can. Because you don’t have to spend all your time fretting about achieving the impossible or being someone that you’re not.
You know that phrase “Work to live, don’t live to work?” I think it’s the same with relationships – being with someone should help and support us in getting on with our lives, it shouldn’t be the POINT of our lives.
I also spent six years with someone who always said “I will respond to any ultimatum by choosing the other option and breaking up with you”. He also met someone about six months after we split up. Although it was all fairly painful, when I look back I don’t mind that we split – it was the right thing. What I really mind is spending most of my twenties wanting to get married and have children, with someone who didn’t want to get married and have children. As nice as he was in many respects, that was Not A Good Use Of My Time.
its very hard when you have to sit there and think that the person you believed loved you literally wasnt there when you need him to be there emotionally. I was diagnosed with cancer two years ago and during that time he would tell me he would be there for me seeing we were together but anytime i needed him he was busy. The day after a major surgery he walked out on me saying he needed to get his shit together and couldnt help me only to later come back a month later and want to get back together. That has been the same thing over and over whenever i need him to be there for me emotionally he is gone. so i sit here thinking how was i that vulnerable to love someone for 6 years that in my darkest hour in my weakest moment would turn and walk away.
aw hopeless, I’m really sorry that you had to go through that and hope that you’re recovering well.
It’s easy to say “you’re better off without” but, really… you’re better off without someone who refuses to man up and handle anything negative or difficult. That’s a fine and sensible way to handle life, when it is so frequently negative and difficult. Not.
I’m sorry that it hurts so much and wish I could say something to make the hurt go away – I can’t, because the only way out is through it. But it’s better, far better, to hurt and grow and learn than it is to stick your head in the sand like an ostrich every time something is difficult. You might not feel that’s true now, but one day you’ll look back and see that it is xx
This site, and these posts, have given me sanity. I read them long into the night and make notes. Thank you, all.
As for anger, I looked at it as “a blocked wish.” What was I expecting that I didn’t get? How realistic was I?
My MM of 5 months wanted a future. I was skeptical. He wanted to jump into a fully-cooked relationship without doing the hard work of disengaging from his 20-calls-day wife. He would not stand on his own two feet and give us the chance to see what life would be like without the constant crises. In terms of career, education, earning power and background, I would be perceived as more high-status than she. How wonderful it would have been for him if he could have shoved that in her face, the woman who told him he didn’t earn enough, didn’t give her enough foreplay, didn’t do this, that or the other thing. Oh yes, I was a confidence booster big time.
After months of maintaining my boundary on Fake Future talk, I told him to go back to her. He was never going to really leave, so why stay? In less than 24 hours, he was home, sending me texts. I am in NC and angry as hell. I guess I did have expectations–that he would love me more than he loved her. That he would have the guts to break away. That he would chase me forever. How I loved that PING when a new message came in! The attention! I do receive little messages,”I miss you,” “I am sitting in my car crying, how did all this happen?” It happened because you would take no action, AC! I am glad I set boundaries–but it doesn’t mean there weren’t “block wishes” deep in my heart.
This article is so true because everytime I expresed my feeling to my ex his response would be “well than I guess we should break up.” Many times I would often retract my feelings just so he would understand I don’t want to break up I just wanted him to chnage how things were. I am at 21 days no contact and although many times I feel great about this today i am having a really hard time. I keep wanting to go see him so he can “validate” how he feels for me. i want him to still love me and want to be with me. We broke up 5 months ago after a 6 year relationship and he is currently seeing someone. It killed me when i found out he was seeing someone because how could you move on so quick if you really cared about me. When I confronted him about this he said they aren’t together and that its not what I am thinking which makes me feel like they are just having sex. But is that supposed to make me feel better and how do I know if thats true. I sit here almost everyday wondering why do I still care when I know there are so many reasons to move on. But than on the other hand I think was he really that bad of a guy? I feel like by moving on I am realizing that I was wrong about him and that my judgement was off and that I dont have a good judge of character. I truly thought he was the one and although there was a great deal of issues that came up i really thought that we would get through everything.
Im scared that ive trained my brain to constantly go over it , he dumped five years ago and ive hung in there like fb all the time so whem he pursed me when i found bout this girl i oh so stupidly assumed coz he thought i was off for hood . Because psthetic little tired is always there for him , boy did he pursue and i fell for it toll he started distancing homself less texts etc and i knew. . Five wasted years i feel like i cant get my brain to wake the f up x
Tired
Turn down the drama. If you did train yourself you can untrain yourself. Better to waste five years than six. Hopefully you did other things in those five years than just this relationship. If you chose instead to make him your whole life, then address why you did that. I wouldnt hold him accountable for that.
I was three years with a man who physically and emotionally abused me. In that time I also learned new skills which directly led to the nice job and comfortable life I now have. That man is history now and my life is ten times better. And I met someone new so it’s not like you won’t ever meet anyone again. Still, if I were to be single again I know I would be happy with it, as I was happy before. So can you be happy.
I think I am sad to realize that there are a lot of men out there who are manipulators. It bums me out that so many of us on here just really want to be a good girlfriend / wife to someone and in the process of meeting a respectful man we are getting jacked around and hung out to dry. It feels like the friggin’ “hunger games” out there in the dating world.
I just recently got burned by a future faker who talked me right into what I thought was a very special relationship only to wait until I was falling in love before he told me he wasn’t actually ready for a relationship and that he needed an open ended amount of time (2 days or 2 years who knows what he was asking for). I tried to understand him but in the end I realized that he just wasn’t being genuine or honest with me and had to break it off. To which he never even responded to me.
I really enjoy the BR site but I have to say ladies I just feel very sad inside that we need a site like this. That men are so sneaky and sex obsessed that we need to go out armed with all our FBI insight to suss them out rather than just being able to put on a pretty dress and enjoy ourselves.
I know there are wonderful, respectful, genuine and loving men out there. I am just very discouraged that they seem to be few and far between.
Biggest thing I have learned is stick to my values no matter what my “feelings” want because in the end if it doesn’t work out – all my safety latches have been in place so I don’t end up feeling used and taken advantage of.
Good luck to you all – may you find the man who treats you as the amazing women you are!
I’m sort of with you there, reality, but sort of not.
There ARE some people some already have that FBI insight. I’ve told this story on here before but my (very together and sensible) boss went out a few months ago and got chatted up by the father of my son (who coloured my entire existence for 2.5 years with his silly messing-about). When she told me about it, she said “I spent the night avoiding him, he was obviously just a sleach”.
The thing is that, when I first met him I had EXACTLY the same reaction, it’s just that I said “Well, he’s a sleach but a good-looking sleach and maybe he’s just unhappy and I could help…”. Bang. Three years of emotional health problems later and I’m not sorry that I have my lovely son, but I could’ve taken or left the dramadramadrama and the feeling utterly worthless.
My point is, I think, that we actually DO have an inbuilt radar for these things that works fine if we can let it – the bother is that so many of us are blinded by past pain or low s/e or (in my case) sheer vanity and we often CHOOSE to ignore the signals. For whatever reason, a straightforward relationship isn’t really what we want, even though we think that it is. And we collude with this men in pursuit of some fallacy that society’s selling us.
I’m not letting the men offa the hook, here, because a lot of the stories on here are appalling and make me furious, but in a way I’m sorry for them – they’re just as dysfunctional and messed-up as we are, but if it’s working for them they’ve got no incentive to change.
It’s also worth pointing out that EUMs tend to leave a much bigger wake than nice emotionally healthy men, purely because they shag around a lot.
So, whilst I share your anger and I’m really sorry that you got bitten by a one of these, I think it’s worth staying positive. NOT ALL men are horrible. We DON’T have to collude with them and we DO have the skills and abilities (and, with BR, the tools) to avoid them in the future. And, while we’re at it, we can resolve a lot of buried pain at the same time. Aces!
Grace,
Thank you SO MUCH for your reply to Tired. You are a wise woman, indeed, and I get so much from what you write to me and to others.
I have been berating myself for “wasting” those 3+ years with the exMM, and it’s been getting in the way of forgiving myself. But you are so *right* – he was not the only part of my life for that time. We took courses together, and I will be able to use those skills in my life AFTER him. I made wonderful connections with other people on the committee we both work on. I have a full-time job and 2 part-time jobs that I managed to handle while we were “together”. I co-authored 2 publications (which the exMM barely acknowledged – when I sent him the link to the abstract, he wrote back and told me he had looked up 6 abstracts that his sister had co-authored. Didn’t even mention mine!).
And now that I have set myself free of him, I am learning about myself and relationships in leaps and bounds.
My confidence in the ability to forgive myself for “wasting” those 3 years has just soared.
Thanks again Grace, for your wonderful additions to Natalie’s posts. xo
Why oh why does it feel like I am down in this dark pit of deep despair today. I am really not in despair at all just my thoughts working best to consume me. 80 days NC today. I guess it’s because I am doing so well at moving forward. There are lots of great days with NC and few of those pain in the ARSE days…His strength is made perfect in my weakness…
Awakened, I feel like I am right there with you. Why do I feel like I need to be validated by this person who let me know that to him, I am worth nothing more then sex. I am not worth putting any more effort forth. Why do I want someone like that to call me?
Great post
Like previous posters, my parents, particularly my mother and 1st ex stepmother flat out hated who I was and had no problems making their dislike known. It taught me to write off family as a source of anything positive and that it was THEIR problem not mine.This really helped prepare me for my years as a serious environmental/tribal activist not to mention dealing with my very abusive graduate advisor. I don’t care if folks hate or dislike me, What can hurt is being used for attention, sex, by men that feel that way but aren’t up front about their real feelings for you. Give me someone who screams “I hate you” to your face over that any day. You know where you stand.
I’ve always been quite laid back and not assertive enough at the right time, meaning that I wait until I’m really worked up then become assertive which sometimes comes across as anger. However, it was my birthday on Sunday and my best friend came down from up North to see me in London. Its been nearly a year since I had my encounter with the disappearing King of Playas (got that from you Grace)and we agreed to visit a Spa and go out for my birthday and enjoy the weekend. However, the wife of her Pastor passed away a week ago and she came down and spent the whole weekend with the Pastor and his family instead. Now I knew the Wife and was sad of her sudden passing but was a little put out that she didn’t even stop by to see me for even an hour and left me in the lurch all over the Bank holiday weekend, I couldn’t go to the Spa as it was at the hotel she was staying in. We have been best friends for over 20 years and she came down to London with her husband, texted me on my birthday and said I’m going to have to blow you out the Pastor needs me, called me on Monday to say that she knew I was upset with her and she would come and see me that evening but then sent another text saying she couldn’t make it and that was it. I want to confront her explaining how that made me feel, we are close and I didn’t attend the funeral today and I want her to know that I wasn’t happy and it dampened my whole weekend as I only made plans with her, my teenage daughter went to stay at a friends house because she thought I wouldn’t be around this weekend, I really didn’t know what to do with myself apart from watch TV all weekend (boring). I feel bad because I don’t want it to seem like I’m not being sensitive to the Pastor’s needs but she knew I was feeling a bit lonely and crap. Any advice?
Stephanie
I actually get to use my joke scenario for real “I don’t accept cancellations unless someone has died.” I would cut your friend some slack unless she does this all the time. I think it could all have been handled better but it’s done now.
she doesn’t have a thing for the pastor does she?
Exactly what I thought when I read that. I have heard widowers say that they have to fight the florences off with a stick.
She has done this before but not all the time. I don’t think she has a thing for the Pastor but they are close and she has a lot of respect for him.
Yes. I think you are being a little over sensitive. Your pastors wife DIED.Your friend needed to be there. You can spend time together celebrating your birthday another weekend. You need to develop some interests and hobbies so that you DO know what to do with yourself and not rely on other people to make you happy.
Okay, I’m actively seeking feedback about a situation that I’m dealing with in my personal and professional life. I *need* some response to this because I’m going out of my mind wondering what the H is going on. In another post, I wrote about leaving a work situation that bordered on the abusive for a job that was a tad more professional to say the least. Now, in hindsight, I realize that the abuse at my old place of employment started when I broke up with my boyfriend and was once again “on the market.” I was being bullied left, right, and center by the women on my shift and I left when it became too much for me to bear. To be fair to them, I was getting a *lot* of attention from the men at work. I was the ugly ducking growing up, so I know what it’s like to deal with those sorts of emotions. While working there, I began being pursued by a man who I’d liked since we were both seeing other people. I was stuck in a bad relationship when I started that job and he became a widower in the twelve months that I knew him. Now, while I acknowledge the obvious red flags in the situation I’ve outlined above, I must say that this gentleman in particular always treated me with the utmost respect. He made it clear that he liked me but respected my boundaries and didn’t do anything I was uncomfortable with. Due to the nature of our jobs, he flirted with me mostly in public because the only time we saw each other was during shift change. I eventually requested a shift change for reasons totally separate from anything to do with him. My health was bad and working nights was really doing a number on my domestic life as well. The incident that eventually prompted me to quit was when my supervisor started jerking me around about transferring me. I know he knew that I had a thing for this guy and I suspect he may have been sweet on me, even though he was older, un-attractive and nobody I would ever consider having a relationship with. When he started saying openly misogynistic things to me, I turned in my notice and left for another job. Before I quit, the man who’d been flirting with me met me at my car and made it clear that he was about to ask me out. I was evasive for reasons I’m not totally clear about now (insecurity? emotional baggage? some other reason?) and did not allow him to pop the question. Now, I’ve been gone from this job for over two months and I can’t stop thinking about him. I’ve met a lot of people since then, and I get a lot of attention whether or not I’m in the fishbowl that was my previous place of employment. I’ve finally sorted out my issues from my last relationship and think I’m ready to start dating again. I even went on a pseudo-date recently with another guy I had a crush on that went well. Conversation flowed easily and we had a lot in common. So, I know there are plenty of other fish in the sea. My present employment situation may be ending sooner than I expected due to financial reasons. I left my old job on good terms and was wondering if it might be a place where I’d want to work again (I think things would be fine if I just transferred off the night shift). I went back to visit recently just to see what the reception would be. The first person I saw was the guy who’d almost asked me out. We exchanged pleasantries, and I thought there was quite a lot of sexual tension. His co-workers were smiling at him suggestively, he seemed pale and nervous, etc. I don’t think I overtly embarrassed myself in anyway, I tried my best to seem totally and different, and keep a neutral expression, although I suspect my feelings may have been written all over my face. I had to call my supervisor to let him know I was on campus, and at that point Guy A’s behavior switched and he was quite cold and cruel to me. He basically asked me to leave, snapped at me, and tried to stop me from picking up the phone. When I called anyway, he went into a sulk and acted like he couldn’t care less. I went to visit with a few other people including my supervisor and a “frenemy” of mine who I know has a few jealousy issues. It was fine until they both started making fun of my thing with this guy. At that point, I got the distinct impression that they were laughing *at* me, not with me, and I left in a bit of a funk. In conclusion, I’m not at *all* sure that I want to go back to work there, but have I completely blown my chances with this guy? Was he just not that into me, did I see his true colors coming out, or was it simple jealousy that made him act the way he did? I know this is a long, drawn-out, dramatic post (boy, do they know how do drama there) but I could really use some feedback and some help analyzing these recent events and figuring out what to do.
Hi FTReality,
Here’s my shot at assessing your situation:
1.) You said you left on “good terms”…I’m curious, what would make you say you left your job the first time on “good terms”? It sounds like the lid was going to fly off and hit the ceiling if you DIDN’T leave that place. And no…. I don’t think it would have mattered if you worked on ANY shift.
All the things you mentioned sounded like you left a very toxic workplace that’s wrong for ANYONE to be in for MANY reasons. What could possibly make you say that after you admitted even your boss was acting in very unprofessional way? You got your answer when you returned and it seems like YOU are constantly the center of this drama. If I were you, I would NOT go back there…period. Not for some dumb job, and NOT for some guy even.
2.) And speaking of the guy, key observations:
– Your guy didn’t think it was appropriate the FIRST time to get together because of the nature of your jobs and thought it better to leave you alone. What made you think that going back there would have allowed you to pursue a meaningful relationship with him … considering the hostile environment?
– He may have asked you out before but you still would never have known what this guys true intentions were. Keep in mind: He was asking you out…not declaring his undying love for you. So don’t assume a relationship with him was possible under those conditions. You liked him, but you still never really knew him and his potential for a relationship outside of work. What about it?
-He obviously doesn’t like your boss and the work situation in general. Who knows what was said and done when you left. But I don’t think he felt comfortable displaying his feelings (if he had any) openly in the workplace where the BOTH of you are the center of the gossip line.
—
Which leads me to say this: If you returned to that job solely so you can rekindle some misunderstood feelings with this guy, I think you lost that opportunity when you left him high and dry and didn’t exactly let him know where he stood. Unless I’m wrong?…..(fill me in.)
But it’s obvious to ME that he wanted to have some kind of “relationship” with you OUTSIDE this particular workplace situation and certainly far more discreetly. Now what KIND of relationship? Could very well be just a booty call set up and a missed opportunity for him…..
Also….if he didn’t give you an explanation as to why he reacted the way he did AND he didn’t later say that he’d like to pursue something with you, then obviously he no longer thinks it’s worth it. He’s not interested anymore…
Leave him be and find someone else and preferably NOT someone you work with.
FTOR
He shouldn’t be rude to you. I think that should be what they call a “boundary”. There is no excuse, ever, for that. If he was uncomfortable in the situation there was other ways he could have dealt with it without discourtesy to you. It is a sign of poor character.
Freedom
It all sounds a bit bonkers. Do you
HAVE to work there and do you HAVE to date someone who works there?
I’ve trained myself to stop overanalysing so can’t help you except – is any of this worthwhile and/or making you happy?
Ps if a man is horrid to you, forget him. Forget him quick.
@FreedomTR. Sounds like a WOT..”Yawns” Waste of Time… Flush and Next…
Dear Grace and LoveyDovey,
Thank you both for your comments. You don’t know how much. I say that I left on good terms because they did say in my exit interview that I was eligible for re-hire. And my boss was sucking up to my by the time that I left (I think he was afraid that I would complain to HR, which, actually I did … I wasn’t expecting a positive reception from HIM at all) but I had a good conversation with a co-worker the other day in town that left me thinking, maybe … but when I went back (and I was only there for about ten minutes, total) I could literally FEEL the hostility seeping off the walls. It was like a physical force. It kind of left me breathless. What’s weird is that, I don’t feel at *all* embarrassed that I went back, although I am sure I will be the star of the rumor mill for the next few months or so. I think I needed to experience that for myself just to reassure myself that I wasn’t missing anything by being there. Although I have moments of denial or nostalgia (obviously, or I wouldn’t have written that post) I’m feeling really pretty Zen about the whole thing. I know it’s not about me at all, because they’ve run other people off the job before (honestly, the whole place is totally dysfunctional and has a reputation for being such). I do not fault the guy at all for his behavior … he was never anything but impeccably polite to me and I think I put him in a very tough spot by leaving the way I did and rejecting him on top of it. I know how they do business there and it would not surprise me at all if they made him take the fall after whatever kind of investigation was made. He’s young, talented, and ambitious and they prey on those sorts of people like wolves there. Just look at me … I’m the Campaign Manager of a political campaign and my “friend” was cringing away from me like I was an AIDS patient. I’m actually not bitter or angry at all, just peaceful and very, very sad.
@Unsure I think it’s just part of the process that we have to get though. The good thing is at some point you get pass all the validation seeking. Get busy and stay busy. Martha was not sitting around waiting for Boaz. She was busy and he showed up. Hang in there.
I think I am slowly becoming more assertive and less aggressive. I tend to be more aggressive, and I think sometimes I am downright mean, and I don’t pay attention to how I am affecting the other person(S).
I think that’s why I felt guilty about how I ended my short reunion with my last ‘ex’–because I wasn’t acting like a person that I valued or respected when I sent him the harsh email.
But, I have since forgiven myself, and comforted myself.
I don’t think that I am an aggressive person by nature; I see it as a misguided coping mechanism, a pattern, a habit, something I learned to do from my mother. It’s like I am just behaving that way because that’s just the way I feel comfortable in getting what I need or want, but yet sometimes I am really feeling insecure and afraid, … uncomfortable, but I am pretending to be this hardcore person, demanding to get her due.
I’ve always had this idea in my head that I wanted to be a calmer person like a polished politician, being asked the hard questions, calm and collected, but usually my energy and expressive nature gets the best of me, and ….
Lately, though, I have been really trying to respect other people’s boundaries, and I am watching how I talk to people, and how I affect them. I feel like a nicer person, and I don’t feel like a doormat. But i must say, it saddens me that I’m finding that, often more than not, opting out seems to be the only solution.
And, as I believe in myself more, and I have more confidence, and I grow stronger in my new beliefs, I don’t feel the need to be more aggressive, I feel more like just asserting my rights, and moving on, but sometimes I find myself being lazy in taking the action that I need to take to move on. It seems easier to sit there and complain, and ramble again and again about the perceived ‘injustice’ or unfairness of it all; yet, I am getting sick of listening to myself now, and I feel this longing to be who I know I am…taking action out of my comfort zone…yes, that seems to be the key for me. When I do that, I feel so much better about myself; I just wish I could do it on a more consistent basis.
I feel as if I am getting back on track now; I’ve gotten past the stumble with my “Suck it up and See” with my ‘ex,’ yep, I think I’m getting out of Sugarland…I’m feeling scared about some of the things that I know I am going to have to do. I can feel the anxiety as I write, but here goes…hmmm, ….
Natalie, I will be signing up for your e-course on self esteem tomorrow. I’m so excited. I learned a lot about me today not by interacting with a guy rather by finishing a door knob project (don’t ask, I get harebrained ideas when I have time off). Since I was having difficulty using a manual screw driver, I decided to buy my first “power tool” (thanks Miskwa), thus I would be the driver and have power over those sucky little screws. There was a moment when I had a 12 volt electric screw driver and discovered I was using the wrong screw. There was no way it was going to work no matter how many volts I had. I was in a frigging power struggle with a small screw thinking I have 12 volts god damnit. Not gonna happen. I just sat down, laughing, and sweating. The moment so summed up my relationships. Thank you Natalie for that insight. I re-read the directions, ran to the hardware store and got the right screws. It was a dreamy moment. I didn’t have to force it. They went in like a dream. “Healthy relationships are not power struggles and the truth is, the moment that you admit that you’re wrestling with someone for power over them, you, or the relationship, is the moment that you admit that this relationship isn’t working and cannot proceed.” Apparently this applies to door knobs too! The minute I sense that “I’ve got 12 volts” frustration, I know it is time to step back no matter what I am doing, particularly with guys, my daughter, and small screws. I guess it is obvious to the DIYers, you can’t force a screw; you’ll just strip it, and spend the rest of the day trying to get it out.