I don’t think what I did was so wrong. He asked me on the date. It’s not like I made him take me to a place with an extortionately priced menu. I don’t deny that I could more than afford to pay but hell, it was our first date. If he hadn’t jumped the gun and gone to a second, I would have offered to go dutch or even pay.
I don’t care about him but I don’t want to find myself in this situation again. Am I in the wrong? Have I missed something?”
Christina, the only thing you have missed is the opportunity to be with an assclown, which means you haven’t missed anything at all!
You have actually got lucky because he has shown you who he really is which will spare you another moment of indulging him.
Controversial as this may be for me to say it, he asked you out, he pays. This is a lame, cheap trick on his part and there is one particular thing about this that makes him look cheap…and nasty..
If he was that pissed about the fact that you didn’t offer to pay, why try to invite himself in? What kind of rinky dink sh*t is that? What – did he think he could take payment in kind?
This guy is unbelievable!
Here’s the deal with paying on dates.
I don’t go for all this BS fannying around over who pays on the first date because with men who get p*ssy about who pays, you can’t win with them anyway.
They bitch when you don’t offer to pay….and they bitch when you do!
Don’t offer to pay and you’re taking advantage or even a golddigger and do offer to pay, and you’re treading all over his masculinity.
But some guys will say “I like the woman to offer but I have no intentions of letting her pay..”
Again, this is total BS.
It’s a superficial act and the only intention is for it to massage his ego!
Men hate when women do ‘the reach’ – when you offer to pay and reach for your purse in a superficial gesture of appearing to want to pay your way and he accepts the offer and we get annoyed.
Well guys, I hate to say it but getting annoyed with a woman for not offering is the male version of ‘the reach’ – expecting her to do the reach and having no intention of letting her pay and then getting annoyed when she doesn’t do the reach!
Am I crazy in thinking that there is something really screwed up about this?
Generally speaking, guys like to pay on the first date and if they aren’t intending to for some reason, they could save a whole lotta reaching up in he-re if they would just come out and say it from the outset instead of expecting us to figure it out through telepathy and making the end of the date highly awkward.
However, if YOU ask HIM out, play it safe and be prepared to pay and take out your purse and your card and place it on the table. DON’T bend down already pausing for him to give you the halt sign…
Anyway, this guy is a tool. Eager to try to get through the front door on the first date and eager to discard you for not meeting his dating etiquette standards.
You’re not in the wrong because I doubt that there was going to be happy end to this situation and you can’t win with a man like this anyway.
Your thoughts?
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Christine, this gets tricky. I agree with NML that the guy had unfair expectations (which is pretty common, even with the best guys). The problem is that neither of you communicated well enough to let you pick up on his share-the-load financial philosophy.
I would pay attention when someone asks you out. If the invite is clear, and follows traditional formula, such as, “Can I pick you up at 7:30?” , or “Can I take you to dinner?”, etc. the wording strongly establishes that he will be host, and considers you a guest. You are expected to be gracious about accepting his hospitality – don’t offer to pay, except perhaps offer to leave the tip (gratuity) at dinner.
If the wording and relationship he offers is different, or if he does or says anything curious or interesting or strange about money – bring it up. If you feel he invited you, ask, “Can I pay for part of this?”
There is kind of a standing joke about women wanting to split costs, computed down to the pennies. Guys find that tedious, most times. If you find a guy that follows this philosophy, though, you have to accept that his thoughts on money are going to be strange, compared to usual expectations. You may have noticed that men and women seldom come to quick and fair answers about money. The philosophies really are different, most times. Perhaps some people use money for survival, others for social display. The only way to avoid trouble is to identify quickly when there is a difference of philosophy – and communicate. Like any difference in philosophy (money, sex, children, in laws, the ‘correct’ number of shoes in the closet [three – worn tennies for homely tasks, tennies for shopping, work shoes], how long to keep books [till the reader dies]) it takes time to identify each other’s feelings, and respect for each other’s position. Or you have to choose to walk away from too big a difference.
I would thank the bum for his candor, and for letting you know his feelings. And I would thank him for the evening. Only, don’t contact him again, any requests for a date tell him, “No,” any questions about why, “I am not interested.”
I would rely on the guy to make clear when he has expectations of you – whether it is sex on the first date or help paying the bills. Your responsibility is to choose to agree or disagree, and let him know your answer.
(If he lets you know he expects to end up in bed, you can explain that won’t happen. It may cost you dinner or an evening out, but leaves you both reasonably satisfied that you are better off. Besides, expecting trust or respect or intimacy before they are earned is rude.)
I agree that you didn’t do anything wrong, and you should write the guy off. I remember one guy I dated for about 2.5 months. At one point he really gave me some sh*t for not paying. I was kind of like, okay a) you have a trust fund, b) you have a full time job, c) you own your 4-bedroom house outright, and d) we are at Applebee’s. I am a full-time PhD student who makes $14,000 USD a year! I think you can pay, assclown. Offering to pay for the tip on future dates and renegotiating who pays once you’ve been together long enough to know each other’s financial situations is one thing, but a first date that he asked you out on? Let him pay!
I have to agree, I am a bit old-fashioned when it comes to this. If he asks you out, he pays. Especially the first date, after that, it’s all fair game. Sometimes guys feel a lot of pressure, financially speaking, to keep entertaining a date or woman that they are seeing, so offering to pay on the second or at least chipping in a bit, is usually a relief. Especially these days when most of us make the same amount as the boys.
It isn’t really fair.
HOWEVER, first date, a gentleman will pay. If he can’t afford to take you out he shouldn’t have asked in the first place.
What I usually do is let the guy take care of the first, with the caveat (and I say this if it is going well) that the next one is on me.
Seems to take the pressure off a bit.
It can get pricey!!!!
I totally agree you NML , its such total BS, if you can’t afford to pony up for the bill when it comes then you have no business asking anyone out in the first place. Men are getting pretty ridiculous these days and really are pushing the limits and basically slacking on a lot of things. I think this is a severe knee jerk reaction to the the women’s movement. Many have decided that this is their out. So they no longer have to open doors, pay for a meal that they quite often have badgered you into a in the first place, and have feel they have zero responsibility for helping maintain a relationship once its begun. At some point the time, romance, and attention disappears and they expect a woman to stick around, still have sex with them, be nice, but at all other times be ignored. Then they have the nerve to be surprised and angry when we bounce. I always take plenty of money with me on dates, I have no intention a paying if I am gracing someone with my time and attention and I have no guilt, when I tell a man, I was born in America and I’m not dutch. Then promptly exit the establishment.
Honey,
You are assuming that someone with money is obligated to spend it on you.
Even if a guy is dating you, living with you, or married to you, be really careful about making assumptions about what money is available, what is to be used, and who gets to make the choice. He may have obligated, in his mind, all of that money for retirement, a bass boat, or political campaigns. Or the local strip club. Which means that any money he thinks of as his, that you spend or he feels you coerced him to spend – he is going to resent that. For some guys and gals it isn’t that big of an issue. For others, especially if they have ever had to live on too-short funds or been close to someone that has, money may be available, in the checking account, and still not be considered available.
This can be a trust issue, a respect issue – do you respect the choices he has made, or blow his dreams away because you decide the money should be spent on something else? And I know it happens both ways, that he may want to earmark money he thinks is common, etc. This is not about what is right or wrong, or what is necessary. Necessary is about making choices – if he doesn’t feel like making the same choice as you, then his needs will be different. Right and wrong are often similar – relative to choices. It can be much more difficult to respect your partner’s choice, and work out a compromise of choices, than to defend your choice, bully him or ‘win’.
Dollars are seldom just dollars, or Euros, or whatever. Sometimes it represents dreams, sometimes a safety cushion, sometimes a tool to survive or power to conquer. And sometimes it is just mad money. But because someone else has money that you would spend, doesn’t mean they think it is available.
It takes communication and trust to understand (and respect) your partner’s feelings about the fundamentals – money, character, family goals, work goals. Unless you *want* to set a price on your affections (“He better spend $XX on me or he is gone”). That has other connotations. Do you want his respect, or his income? With his respect the rest will be much less of an issue.
WebGurrl, I think what you are seeing comes from several causes. One is the decline of politeness in society (some would say, since the decline of people going about armed – an armed society is a polite society. The risk of offending someone and getting shot or beat up 100 years ago kept people honest, defensive, and rewarded manners with survival.). The other contributor is decline of respect and manners in the American family. Expectations of what goes on during a successful date are essentially learned from novels, chick flicks, and magazines. And guys are reading that kind of books and magazines, or paying much attention to the flicks for dating examples. Many guys and gals are just ignorant of expected manners. Plus, there have been some inventions – calling within 24 hours if you slept together is a recent invention – before the mid 1960’s there weren’t many respectable dates that ended in intimacy.
The experienced, professional dater? He has his money planned out. He knows how much money to spend to get into your knickers – and at what point to pass on to another, more value-priced lady. And there will be no way for you to hang onto such a guy for the long haul.
It is much better to pick an honest man that is trainable, and together to find a way to get acquainted, and build the trust and respect and admiration for each other that will grow into something beautiful. And be aware you have to be trainable, too. You have to both respect each other’s values values and choices. You have to be ready to share why you feel as you do. Remember that guys often have a tough time learning to express their emotions, let alone understand or relate why they feel as they do. But practice makes perfect, it can take 50 successful repetitions to ‘master’ a lesson once the lesson is learned. Or is that with horse training? Actually I think that rule applies to both men and horse training. It is better not to assume a lesson is mastered the first time. I remember in Algebra we always had to practice, practice, and do still more problems. Be gentle, please, when training.
Brad, I have to say that this really stuck in my craw
‘The experienced, professional dater? He has his money planned out. He knows how much money to spend to get into your knickers – and at what point to pass on to another, more value-priced lady’
Are you saying that, in theory, if a guy takes you for a beer instead of champagne he doesn’t see you as ‘valuable’. And are you also saying that if a guy does spend money on you the first date then he is expecting ‘payback’??
Didn’t that idea go out a long, long, long time ago?
I don’t think anyone, even a seasoned player, has a dollar figure and attaches a woman’s value to that. As a matter of fact, most guys I know would run like the wind from someone so high maintenance that they required an expensive date to prove their value.
I find this a tad misogynistic and in my experience, most guys would much rather have you be you. And if YOU prefer going for a pint and watching the game over table service and designer duds, well that is what adds value, being true to you.
No man, or woman, should equate money with a human’s value. And I personally think it’s a falsehood to keep this line of thinking, and to perpetuate it.
IMHO
Cheekie, I don’t think that any guy chooses to buy champagne or beer, based on how he ‘values’ the lady. I think the professional dater has his particular strategy, with whatever his goal is in mind, and has planned his finances along with his lines, props, and other tactics toward achieving his goals. The actual dollar values aren’t what is important. to his game plan. Hopefully.
Although I expect the professional dater to base his evening’s spending on how long he anticipates entertaining a given lady. Maybe a bigger splurge for a lady he doesn’t plan to see again, a more sustainable level of spending for someone he thinks might be a long-haul, say, two weeks, relationship. As a professional dater, he likely has no concept of, nor intent for, anything longer term than three months.
I really don’t get where society has gotten to. I’ve never paid for a date in my life and no man I dated would ever expect me to.
OK – Ask him out??? No No No. Never never never. Sorry ladies my mum taught me well, errr well that slipped quite a bit to my own detriment!!! totally different story. Men ask out ladies.
Pay for a date he asked me on? LOL please stop now!! what the f@@&* is that all about? Sorry ladies I know we live in the 21C but really? The old ways are the best, sorry. Real men love to pay, they love to please you and no real man would ever INVITE himself in!!!
I did meet a guy once in a bar, who I sought of knew through a friend he bought me 1 drink, and I chatted to him for about 3/4 hr then he announced that ‘…he thought I should take him home to bed…’ Yeah! I dont think I need to explain the outcome to that one!
LMAO, I got a kick out of reading this. I found it best not to go out to dinner with someone you hardly know, to begin with. I grab a coffee with the person. If they seem normal and kinda laid back and chill then I will invite them to go out and do something. Really anything, doesn’t quite matter to me, I just want to see if I can enjoy my everyday life with the person. I once brought a women to the grocery store, she surprised me by making it fun. I brought one to an NA meeting, I have never laughed that hard in my life and we laughed about months later in the relationship. I figure that I don’t want to court unless I know that they are someone I would want to invest in. That I see a shred of evidence in some form of a connections in there believes and dreams. Then, I have no problems “courting” that women. ( The NA meeting had free food, lol, that is why we went, sorta like a dinner and a show; further more, courting, to me, means that you are showing in every way possible that you are willing and able to provide for that person. If she feels the need to pay, I won’t stop her, I will catch the next bill)
Before I forget to add this, I think there is too much weight being put on first dates in this discussion! You are meeting a stranger, with whom you have no idea what they are like, a coffee is a buck and if for some reason they seem a little “off” your first loss is your cheapest. I feel a first date should be about getting to know the person, and if nothing else, you got another friend.