Like most children, when I got into trouble as a child or I thought that I’d ‘influenced’ something, I would take the blame. Sometimes this happened outwardly such as expressing remorse for jumping between two walls and falling between the two and then saying someone else knocked me off because I was scared of getting into trouble, and then a lot of the time it was inwardly, and so blaming myself for events that in retrospect have got nothing to do with me, such as my parents not being together, or my father flaking on us for visits, or my mother seeming angry all the time, or even for ‘everyone’ not being happy.
I think, OK I know, that I was supposed to mature out of this and get a better perspective about responsibility and where I fit into the picture of Other People’s Behaviour or external factors and situations, but the truth is, to some extent I kept up this line of thinking until I was 28 when it was pointed out to me that it was pretty outrageous for me to still be thinking, albeit unconsciously, that a three year old was responsible for her parents not being together. I had a One False Move & It’s All My Fault Mentality and every day I come across people who insist on taking the blame for Other People’s Behaviour and entire situations, when what they should be doing is a mix of being realistic and looking beyond their own perspective as well as where appropriate, taking responsibility for their own actions.
The One False Move Mentality is when you have an inclination to make things that aren’t about you about you and you work off this idea that if you hadn’t done this or you hadn’t been that, or you’d said this or that, or you’d just been a ‘worthy’ ‘enough’ person then X wouldn’t have happened – X is the other person’s behaviour or a situation.
That’s why I’ve actually heard from people who genuinely believe that if they’d answered the phone on three rings instead of seven, or they’d text back quicker, or they’d been more patient and understanding of the fact that the person they’re with was attached/married, or they hadn’t got upset, or they hadn’t been honest, or they had bigger breasts, a smaller nose, were less black, the ‘right’ religion, were better at sex, were always happy, never argued, never had needs, never expressed concerns, kept still while they were having the crap kicked out of them, gave a 50th chance, or had ‘qualities’ that stop someone who is already addicted to drugs/sex/alcohol/gambling to stop being addicted, that they would have a experienced a different outcome.
The question you have to ask when you are blame inclined is, Exactly how powerful do you think you are?
I can say it now that I have the benefit of the 20:20 vision of hindsight but this whole blaming myself for everything is the inverted ego issues I spoke about last year.
Some people have delusions of grandeur and those of us who have low self-esteem have delusions of being grandiosely responsible for Other People’s Behaviour and even for situations that have jack all to do with us.
We see life through a low self-esteem lens and it’s like its mocking us and sending us messages that we’re not good enough and that we shouldn’t bother trying, when really as self-esteem is about the self it’s actually about how we see ourselves.
Life keeps throwing you the same lessons until you heed them. Trust me, if the lesson was supposed to be that you’re at fault for everything and that you’re not good enough, the lessons wouldn’t keep coming.
We also don’t realise that when we run around taking the blame for everything, it’s actually victimising ourselves, agreeing with other people’s dodgy behaviour, opinions or judgements, and giving ourselves the opportunity to make further judgements about ourselves that can have far reaching consequences.
When you want to find a reason to blame yourself, you’ll find a reason no matter how ridiculous it might be in the cold light of day.
Blame is very much about taking other people’s inadequacies and then equating this to you being inadequate as if you’re provoking it. The whole One False Move Mentality gives you this almighty power born of your ‘worth’ that causes a chain reaction of catastrophic events. Then you say “I’m not good enough. This all happened because of me.” Really?
In the Showtime series Homeland, which if you haven’t watched it, is about a CIA agent (Claire Danes) who doesn’t believe a prisoner of war’s story after he returns to America. She in fact believes that he’s been turned by Al Qaeda and she also blames herself for 9/11. Driven by the desire to avoid another terrorist attack, she genuinely believes that if she hadn’t “missed something” that she could have prevented it. Her boss tells her “Everyone missed something that day.”
And this is where you can learn something else about blame and this whole One False Move Mentality – blame is about thinking about, in fact often ruminating over what you feel that you could have prevented if you had acted differently, been different, or said something else. It’s clutching at straws.
The prevention comes when you take responsibility for the thing you can control (you) and you use the insights gained to apply them into your subsequent actions and mentality. Positively.
Living in the past and reliving hurts and rejections because you’re hanging yourself on one false move serves you no purpose, not least because you fail to see the wood for the trees. Yeah, maybe you could have said/done something different, but that would only affect you and in a relationship that wasn’t working for you anyway, it might have meant you wouldn’t have been it in the first place. People work off their own motivations and agendas and so whatever and whoever they are is based on what they’re already inclined to do.
Blame is like a magic eraser that removes all other parties and absolves them of the blame while you’re at it, taking you out of reality. Responsibility and reality not only paints them back into the picture and let’s you own your own stuff without seeing yourself as being intrinsically linked to them, but it lets you move on instead of remaining stuck on the one thing that really wasn’t the one thing.
Forgive you for where you have erred (you’re only human after all) but also for the things you cannot control and let go of this idea that ‘everything’ rests on you doing the right moves and stop persecuting yourself.
Thoughts?
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I can certaintly attest to thinking that way at one point, it sounds funny saying “if I answered the phone on ring three, instead of seven” things may be different… but the truth is, that is how distorted my thinking was because I took disproportionate blame for insignificant, trival matters that were definitely not part of the bigger picture. The reality and bigger picture is I was in an unhealthy relationship with myself and the person. The relationships foundation was made of crap and I had tried to keep it a float by being in a fantasy land of thinking that I must not be good enough, I could have done this… meanwhile, the truth is probably most of the relationships I had were built on illusions, dishonesty and fantasys. I think of it now and kind of laugh, it’s co-dependency at its finest – you focus so much on that person but it’s really not about that person, its more about you.
This is something I´ve been dealing with since I started dating about, er, 20 years ago.
I always had this belief in the back of my mind that men were some kind of puzzle I had to solve – find the right pieces and they will love me and treat me right, the right pieces being my behaviour/ looks/ conversation/ whatever.
It never crossed my mind that perhaps I could not like THEIR behaviour. Only now am I learning to see that relationships working out or not doesn´t depend exclusively on me – that if things are meant to be they will happen no matter if I call/don´t call the guy, answer emails after an hour/ a day, etc. And if they´re not meant to be, it doesn´t matter what I do.
It is a huge relief!
Lilia,
“It never crossed my mind that perhaps I could not like THEIR behaviour.”
OMG, I never thought about it this way! I was brought up and conditioned to accomodate to a point where I thought: ” I can make anyone happy.” Of course, my mom would say I misunderstood my whole upbringing. Uhmmm, no. Guess what was missing?
I know! Today when I was waxing nostalgic and wondering if I had made a mistake in cutting him out of my life, I started to read back on our last conversation online, which I had saved in my email. The whole thing was so pathetic, as all I did was apologize and apologize and cater to his whims, even if they were irrational or unfair to ME.
Knowing what I know now, I wish I had stood up for myself! It is scary to think how one person could have so much control, since most people I know compliment me on my confidence and self-awareness. I still wonder–what was it about him that turned me into mush??! And why did I put up with that crap for so long?!
@PhoenixRises – Just did the same thing as I went through my emails deleting all communication with him. Over the past 6 months I have sent countless apology emails saying how sorry I was for upsetting him (translates to: I am sorry for expressing my feelings of dissatisfaction over the mere crumbs I am receiving but please don’t leave me and I will put up with it from now on). There were never any responses to my emails. I felt embarrassed for myself as I read through them. Today was hopefully the last time that will ever happen – since I politely told him that cursing me out over the phone was not ok behavior and I’d like to work on our communication. He basically told me to take a hike. I doubt I will hear from him again – and I feel a bit relieved.
Yes, I still fall into the “did I do something wrong?” mode when I like a guy, it´s exhausting!
I´m trying to reprogram my mind, instead of wondering if it´s okay to basically be myself, I ask “do I like a guy who wont let me be me?”
“Am I attracted to someone who doesn´t answer my emails? Who is unfair to me? Who doesn´t want to communicate properly, work things out? Who doesn´t respect me and my needs?”
The answer is always No.
goodness gracious…
listening to everyone’s stories and reactions and revelations, i can’t believe i ever berated myself for complaining about the crumbs i got from the ex-EUM. because i was right! they were crumbs! and i can’t believe i turned myself inside out for him. i was like a frantic little ferret for most of the relationship, oscillating between being unhappy and blaming myself for being unhappy.
the truth is that i never could find a safe, comfortable place to sit in that relationship. he never really offered me one. or he would offer me this little toadstool, say that that was all he could give, and then start taking little chunks out of it. what an emotional cripple.
i should have just left. but i just didn’t know that that was really my only option, or really that i HAD an option. why do we love men like this….
i can’t tell what i feel more of: grateful that i have you all to lend perspective, or horror that we all have gone through this.
it shouldn’t be like this. we shouldn’t allow it be like this. we need to change it.
once again, all of us, with feeling: never again!
Yep, sometimes I think that if I’d only been thinner, prettier, whiter, then maybe AC would have actually given a rats about me. Then reality kicks in: he was a cheating player long before I even moved here, he would’ve still been cheating on me regardless of my looks, and he will continue cheating because that’s what he does.
Well! We are our harshest critics aren’t we?
We blame ourselves and self-flagellate over rubbish like sex not good enough / didn’t answer phone on ring X and basically treat the (non-) relationship like it was some thin, fragile china glass!
If the relationship is THAT FRAGILE, it probably should be broken anyway. Say it out loud – “He dumped me because I didn’t answer on the 7th ring, had I answered on the 1st ring, he would not have dumped me”. Or imagine someone saying “Oh yeah, I dumped her because she didn’t pick up on ring #7”.
Isn’t that just completely OUTRAGEOUS concept?
TOA,
Brilliant!
“he dumped me because I wanted to spend more time with him than 6 hours / week after 8 months of a serious relationship”
cough, cough….
I felt so much like you Miksa when I foud that my AC cheated on my with a 5′ 9″ modelish red head. Barf! But like your AC he was a cheater well before he met me and mostly like continue to be one. Though I’m hearing that ‘he wants a relationship with the red head’ and “they are trying way way to hard to make it work’. Honestly I don’t give a rats ass about either of them anymore. It’s all about me and my feeling going forward baby!
I am so fed up that one false move from the other party and I run like the dickens. Seriously, I hardly blame myself anymore…I chuck up the deuces and bounce as soon as I smell a rotten fish trying play a silly game. CHUCK UP THOSE DEUCES, ladies, BOUNCE!
skepticrina…
can the yanks get a “chuck up the deuces” translation? is that…the british version of giving someone the finger? only its two fingers?
It’s from a Chris Brown song. Deuces is slang for peace (aka bye) since you put up two fingers(deuces).
I knew several years ago after a break-up, when I was just PISSED, that I didn’t want to be angry anymore, and that I had to learn how to take responsibility somehow for my actions because blaming was getting me nowhere. I just didn’t quite know how too. Unfortunately, I learned the lesson through a job loss and a break up, where a boss and former AC were all too happy to let me absorb all responsibility and on ONE FALSE MOVE. (Or so I was lead to believe.) I spent many hours ruminating/analyzing/BRing/counseling and learned the lesson that I so much appreciated in one of Natalie’s recent posts of taking my share of responsibility — and allowing others to take their share (even when they aren’t willing). I learned to recognize that ones who are angry, blaming, and failing to take responsibility for their part in relationships, is a red flag and a guarantee they’ll let me “do the dirty work”, a job that I just won’t do any more. And an assignment that I try hard at not giving anyone else. A very painful year but I’m so grateful for this lesson. Thanks for this awesome post!
Awesome post,NML. I think so many of us feel like this over and over and over…until ofcourse, the lesson has been learnt.
I went thru the “if only I had not texted him so frequently/everyday”. My ex-exEUM wouldnt reply for days and all I could do was wait and drive myself crazy in the process. So when, he did reject me, voila! ..”if only I had not texted him so frequently he would have stayed”. WHAAATTTTT????
It wasnt until years later a dear friend said “So you like communicating everyday, that is so important to you and it doesnt matter who initiates it as long as it is responded to and appreciated. Its not your fault and you need to accept that he was a dou*che who never had the right intentions”
I learnt that I need what I need and that my mistake (or even my needs is/are never the sole contributor to something ending. I just dont have that power and it isint fair to me to ignore the contribution of the other party to causing the pain/breakup.
This post couldn’t have come at a better time. A guy from my past (who obviously should have stayed there!) came back into my life telling me how he had changed and realized that I was the one for him, that I had all these great qualities that he didn’t want anyone else to have, and that he wanted to be with me and only me. Even had me convinced that because he drove 2 hours to see me took me out for drinks that he would not “waste his time and money just to have sex with me.” And I was stupid enough to believe him. One thing led to another and sex happened, and the agreement before he left was that we were a couple. I get a good morning text the day after, and I call him him. His phone was breaking up, so I hung up and tried to call back. And he was openly flirting with girls on facebook He didn’t answer. This was a week ago and I still haven’t heard from him. I am so heartbroken and I have been trying to figure out what I did or said wrong. Was the sex bad? (which I don’t think it was); was I too pushy? Was I not pretty enough? I just feel so stupid because at 26, I should have known better. *sigh*
The only thing you did wrong, was give this horses ‘bleep’ a chance with you. That’s it. He reeled you in with words (and lies) to get what he wanted, and left. He’s no good. It wasn’t you.
BriA, I had an assclown pull, just about literally, the exact same bs some time ago and trust me on a few points:
1, It’s not the first time he’s done it.
2. Unfortunately, there’s an overwhelming possibility that it’s not the last time he’ll do it.
3. Someone this dishonest is no loss. For serious. If you had a snake slithering around in your house and someone came and got rid of it for you, would you think, “Why, OH WHY, is that nasty-ass snake not still here?!” I don’t think so.
4. Chances are he’ll attempt to pull the same thing again. Don’t fall for it, no matter how hurt you are now. Trust me when I tell you that, if you allow him back, you can take today’s hurt, multiply it by 10,000 and you might come close to how hurt you’ll be.
5. It has nothing, N-O-O-O-T-H-I-N-G to do with you, what you look like, what the sex was like or whether or not you looked him askance by accident.
6. You shouldn’t be so hard on yourself! I let a douche do a similar thing to me at 29. Technically, I had 3 years worth of “I should have known better.” on you! Forgive yourself – sometimes this is how we learn.
Hope this helps and you are feeling better soon!!
Isn´t it awful when they openly flirt on fb? I´m with you on that, BriA, completely hate it.
It might seem like a minor detail but I think it says a lot about the type of guy you´re dealing with… and btw those little seemingly innocent flirting episodes on fb is what made me begin to open my eyes about the freakish EUM I was involved with.
I think it´s like saying to the world “yes I´m an emotional cripple who is only interested in female attention to boost my ego and I don´t care whose feelings I hurt in the process!! So there! And see all the girls I can have, I´m a stuuddd…”. Not very masculine, is it? More of a childish attitude.
So yeah, just flush him and please please please ignore him when/if he comes back, he doesn´t deserve you.
I just had a recent ‘relapse’ with a long-term somewhat AC. After he disappeared for two months (we were not getting along… but, instead of communicating, he disappeared). Then he contacted me. I was NC for weeks after he contacted me. Bumped into him (I was actually on a date), he pulled me to the side, said he was still inlove with me. IM’ed me all night… going on and on… loves me soo much. He re-evaluated everything, was miserable w/o me. Wanted to communciate better, etc…. talked in person, and was very open and honest. Great. I, of course, skeptical, and guarded (after all.. been through this 100 x’s), go along with this. Start dating again. Had a doubtful attitude though the entire time, but kept it more to myself. My vibe, he kinda backed off. I can’t deny, he was good to me first few weeks, but, still cheap with $ when it came to me (not with other things in his life, just with me), his friends and music ‘career’ (doesn’t pay him $, he has a day job… but.. you know, he’s really and ‘artist’) started becoming the top priorities again… Slowly, but surely, feeling ‘less than’ was becoming too familiar a feeling again. Entire time, was open and honest with him. One night, I lashed out… I lost it. He did a little something that reminded me of the old days… when I was ‘less than’, and there you have it. My one false move. I admitted to him, I was wrong. Apologized. Wasn’t good enough… put me down (retaliated… which, I couldn’t blame him, fine.) Tried to speak on phone instead of txt… like an adult (didn’t want to talk to me at all…). So, he went from claiming a million things… 3 weeks prior, to a 360 change of heart, all my fault, one false move. Done. At least I can say I took accountability and admitted doing wrong. He doesn’t have to forgive me. Even though I’ve forgiven countless times for bad behavior. Hey, it is what it is. Beat myself up for a few days. But. No more of that. I took responsibility and that’s all I can do and should do. If it was such a wonderful relationship… I think after several years… I’d have a rock on my finger, and we’d be living together… having a mutually fulfilling relationship. No doubts, feeling scared, guarded, disappearing acts, one false moves, etc… I am done blaming myself. After all.. really, considering the big picture is what’s key… looking at the entire relationship. Values. Our values were mis-matched. My values… family/partner first.. his, music and friends. And there you have it. I don’t have expectations of myself (will I speak to him again, I don’t know… who knows), but I do know that every day, I intend on living in reality, which is today… not the past, not the other day, or what I said or did. And seeing also as… our values and priorities were different. And, no amount of talking a good game (like he did for two weeks), or blaming me… would change that.
Demke
I’m sorry you’ve been through the wringer again. But it jumped out at me when you said you were ” honest”. Honesty is more than the words that come out of your mouth. You have to live it. If you find this unacceptable then don’t engage in it. Telling them how you feel, what you expect and what they should do means nothing if you don’t back it up with action (ie get out and stay out if the mistreatment continues). A man may be amenable to some “direction” (for want of a better word) but it’s really much better if your values chime and you don’t constantly find yourself battling against the tide of shite.
” I don’t have expectations of myself (will I speak to him again, I don’t know… who knows), ” Demke, it’s your life. It’s your duty to know. No-one is going to make this decision for you. Not this man, not a new man. We are so eager to offload our lives onto the next man, or the ex, or a fantasy man, or if there’s no man just throw it into the stratosphere. God gave you a mind and a will. Use it.
Thank you, Grace. Yea… through the wringer feels like an understatement right now. And as I’m moving on from it, I realize.. Jaysus! how many years has this been going on? how many times am I gonna ball my eyes out and feel emotionally sucker-punched? I did what I thought was right. I admitted doing wrong, said sorry, but also told him I was moving on and that I couldn’t go through it again. I forgave him. He didn’t forgive me. And I wasn’t the one saying all the lovey-dovey stuff for weeks, trying to convince, etc… he was. Just was honest, told him I needed to go slow… no expectations… one day at a time, told him how I felt. Communicated. After the fight… he said to me “you didn’t give me another chance, I gave YOU another chance… you are awesome but it doesn’t last long, I deserve waayy better than you… you were trying to prove yourself but it didn’t work”. I’m thinking… is he for real right now? what the ___? It’s not like I slept with his BFF, or set his house on fire, jeez!! I didn’t even think of initiating anything with him… it was all him. The 360, turning the tables was insane. So, my intention… for me, is to NC for 3 months. I intend on keeping my word to myself… NC 3 months… and keep going. Cause 7 years? I think I’ve heard and seen it all. There are men (and women) who forgive for far worse… go to counseling… work through it if they really love one another. But this? Cmon! lol 🙂
Demke – I hear ya. I get the same crap – say something in the wrong tone…done. Say how you feel…done. You are exactly right – you didn’t do something horrible (like cheat, or lie, etc.)! You were just being you trying to protect you. And we cannot continue to be “punished” for being a human being with human emotions and the human capacity to make mistakes. In a relationship no one is perfect and if you can’t say something wrong, apologize for it and be forgiven then it’s not a relationship. I am in the same situation and feel like I am constantly walking on egg shells having to be perfect and basically holding in my every instinct to love the only way I know how out of fear of making “one false move.” Not to mention if I do make a false move and apologize, it comes up in every disagreement. He never moves on from anything and uses it as ammunition the next time. It’s a horrible cycle that hurts like hell. Good luck on your NC. I am working on getting there myself.
demke, grace, lillian-
first – demke: he said – after making you feel less than, he said, “I gave YOU another chance”?? what a delusional ass. please see this for what it is – a man who is very comfortable sitting in a position of judgment of you. there is no amount of “good” behavior that will satisfy a person like this. you have a RIGHT to your opinion, and a RIGHT to have your partner listen to you and treat you as you wish to be treated. you’re STILL too focused on self-blame, on the fact that he didn’t forgive you – when the fact is that YOU felt “less than” (i.e. judged, NOT loved) by HIM. do you see? so, STOP wishing he’d forgiven you. you did nothing wrong.
i repeat: you did nothing wrong!
which brings me to my point – everybody first go back and reread natalie’s above post 3x and then come back down and read this:
i think it comes down to the truth that there’s really nothing you can do wrong to wreck a good relationship and nothing you can do right to save a bad one. cases in point:
– my best friend, god love her, is a wonderful person, huge heart, smart, fun, thoughtful, generous, etc. she’s also neurotic, has fits of nerves and fits of anger, can be criticial of her boyfriend. the point: they’re right for each other, they love each other, they accept each other’s humanity, and they work it out. result: they’re getting married
– another dear friend – he has tolerated 10 years of his girlfriend’s neurosis, her commitment-phobic childish behavior, then she went to therapy and healed. the point (sound familiar?): they’re right for each other, they love each other, they accept each other’s humanity, and they work it out. result (again): they’re getting married
do you see? the guys in my above examples actually LOVE their girlfriends. ACCEPT them. STICK BY them. WORK IT OUT. try to make them HAPPY. they don’t sit around pointing fingers and being shitty and withholding.
contrast the above two examples with the hundreds of thousands of failed relationshiTs on BR, in some cases yeeeaaars long, in which we try and try, only to be left in a fit of criticism by some asshole who didn’t deserve us in the first place. and then we sit there wondering what we did.
screw that. if you don’t like how a guy is treating you, don’t try to change him or change you to suit him. take natalie’s point in this post. value yourself enough to cut your loss and just. leave.
@cc—That’s very true. If it’s an unhealthy person, then it doesn’t matter if you are the smartest, best-looking, most driven, fun-loving woman in the world. You could be wonder-woman and it still won’t matter! If it’s the right person for you and they are healthy, then they will be balanced and accepting of your strengths and flaws equally.
@Demke–The right person for you doesn’t need to be sold that you are a wonderful person, and doesn’t need to be convinced to be with you. They WANT to be with you and make it clear they won’t walk away from the relationship. I am convinced that people that feel the need to incessantly promise and talk about what they plan to do rarely do it; people of action don’t stand around talking about how they’ve changed, they show it through their actions. I’m sorry this AC has put you through the wringer, but the good news is that you don’t have to put up with another second of it!
cc: thanks, great reply. Not too caught up in him forgiving me; more like realizing that forgiving someone isn’t always easy, but if you know they’re good, but they have their quirks… you stick. And work it out if you truly love them. You gave two perfect examples.
I think that’s what bothered me so much about it… weeks ago saying “I love you soo much, please, let me show you”, well.. he showed me that when I screwed up, I’m not forgiven, I’m judged, treated… cruelly and he left, again. Blaming me, continually saying I was wrong, he’s right, etc. Yes, he was beyond delusional w/ some of the things he was saying, I was almost about to say, ‘which personality is responding to me now?’ lol. He even said he was selfless and he’s tired of being taking advantage of his whole life (that actually scared me, cause there’s nothing, in the 7 years I’ve known him… that would declare him “selfless” and taken advantage of (umm.. is this really ____? did someone steal his phone, is this a joke?)). Very strange. First time he ever used that word… and it was just hilarious. Beyond delusional.
I blame myself only for going back and being fooled again. That’s it.
“‘which personality is responding to me now?’” – heeee…..
aw, demke, sorry,
yep, that boy is cracked. but don’t blame yourself. we all want partners. and not many could resist that onslaught of seeming devotion. and good for you for speaking up.
Just thought I’d add a quick update for those of you who blame yourselves like I was a week ago… ex AC contacted me this morning. With a ” 🙁 “. Cause it’s his bday.. so, my mom (who is fully aware of his AC behavior.. and knows what just went down), said… “okay, what would you usually do? ignore him? me: “yes, I wouldn’t answer him”. mom: “well, then what? he finds that as a challenge then chases you… just to do the same thing all over again… it’s all about control.” So, do the opposite… message him back, wish him a “Happy Birthday”, that should scare him (lol). So, I took her advice… I said “Happy Birthday, have a good one.” He replied, “should have been with u on a beach somewhere instead of workin jerk”. It wouldn’t have mattered what I said to him, he would’ve responded the same. I’m sure, he wanted me to ignore him because that’s the pattern, it’s the game. If I said something nasty, or ignored him, I’d get.. “see, you’re mean…”
My mom said.. “keep your memories green”… what he was saying 3 weeks ago.. he got what he wanted… where’s the lovey talk now? you wished him a happy birthday and instead of saying ‘thanks… what are you doing wanna have dinner with me’, ….he calls you a jerk? That’s not talk of a guy inlove.. that’s a bastard who plays games and wants control. And it’s up to you whether you wanna play his game or not… now you know… talks a good game, turns shitty when he can’t deliver… and it’s only to get what he wants. That’s it.”
So, in a way I’m glad that he reach out… because I did absolutely nothing wrong, but be nice… and I still, a week later, got nastiness. And the reason why he probably got nasty…. he already made celebration plans tonight. There’s wasn’t going to be a nice conversation… the guilt and blame are gone… completely. He doesn’t know it yet. But I am absolutely, without a doubt, done with him. Just thought I’d share…
Thanks Lilian.. Yea, I agree with you 100%. My suggestion to you… don’t live in fear of ‘one false move’, that’s no way to live. You have to be yourself. You need to be happy and be able to communicate. He’s keeping you where he wants you… to feel bad and not good enough. And you can turn that around. It’s just being fearless. I stopped fearing abandonment and rejection… and probably why with each passing hour, literally, it bothers me less and less. He rejected me for lashing out… he’s done. Ok… what to do, what to do.. Umm, go about my day as usual. That’s what. I just also need to mention… during our two month ‘break’, I dated someone else, someone older, we had a lot in common. I kept in touch even during this ridiculous wringer, but nothing physical. Just friendly. We were able to talk as if BFF’s, on same page w/ a lot. It’s mature. I could never really talk to Ex-AC like I do with this man. So, these guys are not the end all, be all. It really depends on who you’re with. Are you on the same page? think alike? My ex said to me a few days ago “you don’t think like I do, I’m not changing for you.” I was like ‘whhaattt? I never asked you to’, and out of 7 years and “re-evaluated the relationship for two months and were miserable and knew I deserved sooo much better”, just realized that? Mann… these people. All I’m saying is… other men, more compatible men, exist. And, when you can relate to someone, they are mature, they have respect, it’s a whole different conversation and experience. There’s no drama. As a matter of fact, I’ve talked to this other man for two months… his nickname for me is ‘no-drama’, imagine that! and that’s because I’ve learned so much from my experiences and this website, and he’s not an AC. My ex… I have drama with him, because we just don’t match. Our priorities are not the same. I put my children and him as a priority. He puts himself. It equals drama. In fact, I should be more like him, putting myself and my children first, minus him. I would’ve gotten a lot further in life. Be selfish, in a good way… put you first… watch your life change for the better and you’ll attract someone better.
3 words Nat… RIGHT ON TIME!!!!!!!!!!!
Yup this is me to a tee. I blame myself for everything and obsess over what I could have done diffently, and “if only” I didn’t text, call, say that thing, do that thing. I am the first to admit fault. Part of it is due to being really aware of my crap and what I do in relationships to sabatoge them, not on purpose, but I do them. Then I blame me for others anger, responses. It’s a two way street. You can expect people to respond well if the things you are putting out are crazy mind fk stuff. But the difference is realizing what is yours to take, work on, and what is others. Separating the two and working on you……and hoping others take responsibility for their own actions. I find women are better at this than men. Men find it hard to be addressed, challenged etc. So when you do, even in a kind way, often they fly off the roof or hibernate or stop it dead in its tracks. Not healthy at all. It’s walking a fine line all the time it seems. This blame game. I use to blame others for my woes, now I blame me for most everything. I am insconsistent…and all over sometimes, but often it comes back to what I did wrong, as I am the harshest critic of me….ever…..
helpful post Nat, thanks
So: somewhere along the line I noticed that the people who are of higher status in particular environments seem to get treated well by other people of high status. I don’t get treated well by one of them, and I think: s/he would have treated me better if I were higher status. I guess this is the same as noticing that a guy prefers busty tattooed redheads, and treats them better, and me thinking: he would have treated me better had I been a busty tattooed redhead … or even, that such and such bigshot would have listened to me if I weren’t a woman … and so on.
Intellectually I can see that this is bad behaviour on their part; it has nothing to do with me. But emotionally I think we learn that being a different gender, having a different look, having different politics or more money would mean not just that good people treat you well, but that assholes also wouldn’t crap on you. I don’t think we care about assholes that don’t have what we want. They must have something we want, something we want more than to let them go because they’re jerks. Popularity. Access. Power.
My thing is always worrying that I’m embarrassing someone socially. Nothing makes me shrivel up inside and feel like I deserve to be recoiled from than thinking I just made a social gaffe.
It has taken a while to get enough experience in groups that I finally understand that every group situation needs to be evaluated on its own terms. It could be a group of warm-hearted, inclusive brain surgeons or it could be snotty, gossipy window-washers; or vice-versa. I’ve always felt like there are unspoken rules about group engagement that everyone else knows but me. There are people who contemptuously police who gets into their group, I used to think this was normal as before 30 yrs old I really didn’t have a lot of experience in peer groups that didn’t involve me becoming a pariah. I just thought I must be doing something really wrong.
Now I see there is so much crap behaviour within groups, that half the time people are policing more to exclude people who won’t put up with their crap.
I just enjoyed a pleasant dinner with two of my new colleagues and another friend. I was able to enjoy it, even when it seemed I’d said something to incense the animal rights activist of the group, because as much as I want new friends, I felt I have enough self-possession now to not need any one particular person. I can take my time. I did wonder if I’d “blown it” by saying “the wrong thing” (i.e. what I really think) for about a second, but I breathed through it. These moments maybe are not such big deals, but that doesn’t mean I don’t register them. I just need to trust my sense of scale. I know I need the support of my colleagues, but I need the support of me most.
mags-
if i remember your history correctly, this may help you.
kids raised by narcissistic parents with wounded egos and who are made responsible for their parents’ happiness often do not form appropriate self-esteem and -love at the age they’re supposed to and have to make up for that later. for a LOT of my life, i felt like everyone else knew something i didn’t, like they were all in the starting blocks, ready and set for the race, while i was still back in the locker room desperately trying to figure out how to get my kit on right.
if i may:
– from what i can tell, you work in a brutal environment that values status and ego ridiculously high. this is not necessarily good for you given your background, it further feeds into the ego issues you were raised with. try to even this out for yourself by continuing to observe as you are – this mindful awareness you’re practicing, your analytical ability, is actually helping you – take the extra step of trying to decouple your sense of self from this institutionalized status-vampire culture. yes, you have to work in it, and you have to tolerate it, and you have to thrive in it, but you do not have to buy into it.
– social embarrassment. magnolia! no. your inherent value, which you possess simply because you exist, is not instantly, automatically defrocked from you if you make a mistake. who made you feel this way? if you make a mistake, all you have to do is say, with a big i-love-me-but-i-respect-you-too smile, “oh, i’m sorry, i truly didn’t mean to offend.” and that’s it! if someone is offended after that, its their problem.
look, you’re smart. you’re observant and incisive. take it from me, some people will not like it that not only are you direct, but you can also cut straight to the heart of the matter. they may feel seen in a way they don’t want to be, particularly when they know you can see through their bullshit. they get intimated. this doesn’t mean you should not be smart and incisive – it means you need to use your powers so they will most benefit you. be judicious in what you say, maybe sometimes don’t say it or say it differently so you risk less backlash, and stop seeking others’ approval for yourself so much. you are FINE the way you are. you don’t need their validation. you need yours.
take your strengths and decide they are all delightful – do not let anyone criticize you for them. take your “faults”, find something good about them (look on the other side of each “weakness” coin and you will find strength), find something FUNNY about them, and decide that either they add to your charm or you can make them charming.
you’re doing fine. just work on that tendency to shame spiral. its a terrible feeling, and you shouldn’t have to feel that way. it just takes tweaks of esteem and confidence and a sense of humor about one’s self to fix it.
Im sad to say after 1 yr NC I replied to my ex and after a very long mess, it ended with sexual behavior. Over the past month, I have tried and failed to stay away from him, especially when he asked me to have sex with him, but he wouldn’t leave me alone. I was too weak to hold up when he came around. He has a gf that he claims to love very much and that he has changed. Ultimately, I ended up engaging in sexual behavior with him. I take my part in all of this and know he couldn’t have done this without me there. After the encounter, he dismissed me, especially since I wouldn’t agree to not have hard feelings toward him. I often think about how I should have done things differently. In fact, its all I can think about now. I knew better, but I let my desire for his attention overcome my sense of right and wrong.
Tinkerbell189,
Stop blaming yourself, please. Get up and go with your head high! It’s happened to me in the past, I learned my lesson and do not have any intention to repeat again! We are just humans and allowed to make a mistake. You know now what he is, he still an AC, you gave him chance, he obviously did not appreciate it, his lost, not yours. Hugs xx
awww tinkerbell, he hasn’t changed..men don’t change easily…the gf is a facade into this fake life of his…exactly what my EUM is doing now. exactly what little star said. he’s also incapable of having a relationship with someone…technically he cheated on his current gf and used you. he’s not a man of integrity.he’s an ass. take it as a lesson learned. dont blame yourself. keep strong xx
oh bless you. been there and done that too in the past. just try and put it behind you and start again. you might think ” oh not again” but we all have to start somewhere even if it is again and again.Its so so hard to get them out of your head, i know too well. Its only been since reading all of Natalies words of wisdom that actually made me realise how ridiculous my life had become with my eum, but like you too i could flip flap back and forwards with him. Thats where they control. They know what we like, what we want to hear, they dont want to let go fully as its a failure to them, the loss of the challenge. well you are stronger than that. If you were on the ceiling looking down at yourselfhaving a conversation with someone who was in the same situation you were, you would think they were mental!! you would think ” what you doing”. but we never listen to ourselves until someone – Natalie- in this case, lays it on the table for us to see. I wish you all the best. 11 days for me no contact and so far im doing ok, and the days that i dont feel i am, then i will try and switch my mind on to do something for me wether its a trip to the shops or even just get my nails done or something. or get back on this site and read and re read the blogs. I wish you all the best, youre not a bad person, just had bad things happen xxxxx Take care.
Tinkerbell. Don’t blame yourself too much. I think you’re more worried about what HE thinks of you than anything. Worry more about how you recognize that you feel weak… and that it’s around him and take action… do whatever you need to to feel better, stronger… and eventually you will be okay and move on. And him telling you he “changed” and “loves his new gf very much”, he’s a jerk for even saying that to you. Yes, people can change… BUT. What does it matter if he’s still a jerk to YOU? Guess what? you’ll change too… for the better, if you grow a serious set… and move on. Do not contact him. Write in a journal instead when you feel like doing that… go for a walk… go to gym, read a book, call a friend. Get into the habit of doing something else, every single time you get the urge… and it will start working for you. Hugs 🙂
Thank all of you guys for your support. It means a lot. I know many people have made mistakes before, and that we should stop thinking it was all our fault and what false move we could take back. Yes, he cheated on her and used me and the next morning told me off and cooked her breakfast. Good grief. Maybe this needed to happen to make me really change my life. Because although I was NC, I didn’t do much else to work on myself. I am really trying to let go of my need to see him face consequences. It is hard though, when I feel as though he is the “winner” who got what he wanted and gets to keep his life as is. I am trying to move on, guys, I really am.
Great post, Natalie! We all mess up, and sometimes our mistakes DO influence how a situation turns out. But that doesn’t mean that we are bad people, and it doesn’t even mean we are fully responsible for what happened ‘as a result,’ because everyone responds differently. All can we do is identify our mistakes in order to learn from them, but not exaggerate our degree of control over a situation.
I definitely struggle with this – wondering how much my mistakes influenced the outcome of a situation, wondering if things might have turned out differently if I hadn’t made those errors.
With the guy I was most recently talking to, I made two main mistakes: (1) inviting AC#3 to his birthday party, and (2) accidentally mis-speaking, saying something which sounded like an awful insult but wasn’t intended that way at all. I can’t know how large a role those two errors played in producing the final outcome between us (final outcome being no involvement). I can’t know if those things bothered him a lot, or perhaps not at all. I can’t know if he would have been a great boyfriend, and I blew my opportunity; or if he is just an EUM, and all that happened was he “unfolded.”
It was precisely my inability to accept this kind of ambiguity in the past which caused me to continue pursuing guys in spite of red flags of disinterest. Fearing my mistakes might have caused the guys’ disinterest, I wanted to “fix” those mistakes, leading me to continue engaging in a situation long long long long after I should have opted out.
I’m trying to practice accepting the ambiguity, living with it, learning from my mistakes but not exaggerating them, and moving on.
I agonised for months thinking I blew it because he disappeared. I kept thinking of hundreds of reasons why he didn’t want to be with me. I got caught up with his future faking when really there were red flags glaring at me. I knew he was trying to fade me out towards the end but I kept trying to impress him and be the woman that I thought he wanted and that’s what probably caused the hurt that I felt for so long after. I remember saying to my sister I feel like I messed up a good opportunity to be with someone special and she said what opportunity? He was always going to sweep you off your feet then drop you because that’s what he does. If he really wanted a relationship a little thing you may have done or said wouldn’t have made him disappear he would have spoke to you about it. It took me months to finally wake up and realise this.
hi stephanie, i totally understand you. my ex EUM pulled the disappearing act too..the woman he thought he wanted was someone to be in a casual relationship with. you’re not that woman. he also wants to experience the first highs of a relationship hence why he sweeps you off your feet and then leaves. what you’re sister said sounds exactly like what my sister said. unfortunately theres too many assclowns in the world. my aim now and yours too is not to get swept up into the initial highs. to not trust someone right away and to realise the way they act has nothing to do with you. you’re a good person. he has the issues.
Sisters are great, arn’t they? lol.. my sister told me.. “umm… he’s a jerk, no matter what you said, always been a jerk. yes, he might’ve changed and maybe you should’ve given it a chance, just to see… BUT. you should’nt have given him the time of day years ago… look what he’s done! so many times. if you’re willing to accept what he’s already done, honey, you need help.” LOL.. sisters put it into perspective. Because they know you, and they tell it like it is.
amen demke, sisters are great 🙂 my sisters give me no bullshit advice exactly like natalies advice. we need to LISTEN!
Dear Natalie, what a great article. You know the thing is, I am aware of it, the whole I am not good enough program, but it is so deep imbedded in me, that I dont know where the switch is to turn it off. It just runs on autopilot. After Freud, our Superego is conditioned by early childhood experiences and takes on the voice of our parents. It becomes our inner critic, and we adult surivivor of chidhood abuse, we either become narcissistic personality disordered with no empathy, or we develop some sort of SUPER spiderman sense of empathy as a survival skill. In this we also tend to blame ourselves for other people’s shortcomings, since we easily feel their feelings, can easily step into their position to a point where we don’t even know anymore what feelings are ours, what are there’s. This is critical. You cannot just switch it off, but can decide to stand on your own side, no matter what. You actually abondon yourself over again, like our parents did, if you dont choose your side. In all this years I learned one thing, there isn’t such thing as, right or wrong, everyone always thinks there are on the right side, and the fault is someone else’s. And we take it on? No, its not about who was to blame, it’s about choosing your own side, because no one else will. The outside world is, when it comes to blameshifting and projecting, like a bunch of hungry wild lions, waiting for their deer, if you cannot stand on your own side, accept that everyone has their own version of reality, and its very unlikely that someone will admit it was their fault, then the lions are coming and jumping on you, like there haven’t eaten the last 10 years or so.
jen79-
eXACtly. spot on. and well said. and in all other ways, yes.
thank you!
I balmed myself for everything and anything with mu EUM. Why he never left his wife he didnt love, my fault i put pressure on him. Why he never answered any calls, My fault I shouldnt pester him, Why he felt he had to lie about his whereabouts, my fault as I was too inquisitive – asked too many probing questions. It has only been through reading natalies posts every day which made me realise that if i had have been in a “normal relationship” that these issues would have never entered my head. Its only been 11 days now with no contact off either of us after a row over the phone because i asked him if he was coming to see me, and yet again he was too busy. |The too busy blog did it for me. I have wasted so much time (4 years) waiting for him to leave, be availablem take me out and show me all the things he promised, only to be disappointed – and i still blamed me. But not now. I am determined not to go back to that place and found an inner strength, with Natalies help which i didnt think i had. I dont want that anymore, never mind what he says he still wants, and i started to feel really sorry for his wife too. I saw her once, haggard and downtrodden, and i thought ” hes done that” and i was going the same way. I have put all my energys in the last few days into myself for a change, new hair colour, face mask and did my nails up. seeen my friends more and the one i confide in is helping me too to forget him. Life isnt good yet but getting better.Natalie knows what she is talking about, without her I would still be in the situation i was in. she has been well blessed with a gift for relating the truth to us in a way which makes us WANT to change. I cant thank this site enough, hope I can stick to it now and carry on living.To all the ladies, friends, sisters out there who are going through the same, please just take stock of the situation you are in like i had to, and see it for what it really is with any EUM. They are Liars and cheats yet they think they do no wrong. Mine was an ex para , who could swear on his honour and respect utmost the regiment he was in, yet his persoan life is just one big lie, which i got drawn into too. I dont want that anymore. I am free of it and intend to stay that way. The burden has been lifted off my shoulders by feeling guilty all the time. That has gone. He was the future faker, the false promiser, the boost you up – let you down effer. Good riddance I say!! Turn your tears of grieving into tears of anger for being sucked in for so long, turn it all back on them. He started it – I finished it. xxxxx Thank you Natalie.as always x
carol,
Your experience seems so similar to mine, it’s uncanny. We are *not* to blame for them failing to end their “miserable” marriages. They never had any intention of doing that in the first place, no matter how much “pressure” was applied! We are also not to blame for their cowardly method of dealing with their unsatisfying marriages in seeking OW’s, although we did have a role in allowing them to do just that by being complicit. Like you, I am starting to feel more for the wife of the exMM. She also looked haggard in photos, and it’s highly likely that *his* awful behaviour is to blame. I am also feeling the “tears of anger vs tears of grieving” these days after going NC with him six weeks ago today. Congratulations on your first 11 days of NC, and strength and hugs to you as you continue your healing journey.
Lord only knows I’ve been through this blame game. In the last six months with my ex-fiance (he turned as soon as we moved in together), I was told that I was unsociable/boring/embarrassing/not very interesting (i.e. my interests were not Facebook and drinking, like him)/foreign (yep, I was born foreign)/not very impressive/not athletic. These issues had never been expressed before. I was told that I didn’t ‘wow’ him and that he wasn’t proud of me.
So I took it all on myself, thought ‘if only I morphed myself into xyz, he’d love me’ – I tell you, it was exhausting! In the few months since he left me I’ve slept so much trying to recover from the constant effort I put into proving to him that I was worthy. And it didn’t work.
The kicker is, I am worthy already. I accept myself for who I am. I’ve got a healthy sense of self esteem and am so grateful to be getting it back. I’ve learnt that all the negativity/blame/abuse I suffered at his hands were all his insecurities, not mine. And I am so grateful.
Helen,
I am so sorry! So glad you’re out of that environment.
His interests were FB and drinking? Wow!
helen,
you seem to have a very good sense of self(now) and sense of humor. i, too, was so exhasusted after he left – i slept because, i am sure depression, but, also because it was so incredibly exhausting trying to be what i thought he wanted me to be. it’s amazing, looking back, that someone you thought you could never live with out, well – i wouldn’t even waste my spit on him now. ridiculous. granted – i have had 2 more EUM/ac’s – i am not sure what since him – but, i would much rather be single forever(& i really don’t want that) – then to feel – for even a minute, the way he use to make me feel.
hello all,
hope all are well.
I would not let a person make me feel bad about myself, if he did i let him go away. If loving you means i won’t love myself i shall choose me, as Natalie awlays mentions.
If natalie won’t mind, i read something interesting i would like to share.
http://www.life-with-confidence.com/always-to-blame.html
“The prevention comes when you take responsibility for the thing you can control (you) and you use the insights gained to apply them into your subsequent actions and mentality. Positively.”
Amen to that.
Amen! I can’t tell you how many rape victims and survivors of.child abuse blame themselves! I work hard in therapy to help them see reality but that mindset is so hard to get past!
I really needed to read this today!
“It becomes our inner critic, and we adult surivivor of chidhood abuse, we either become narcissistic personality disordered with no empathy, or we develop some sort of SUPER spiderman sense of empathy as a survival skill. In this we also tend to blame ourselves for other people’s shortcomings, since we easily feel their feelings, can easily step into their position to a point where we don’t even know anymore what feelings are ours, what are there’s.”
Well said Jen79. People call me overly sensitive, but this is a much more accurate description of how I feel or how I think I became ‘this way’.
The only solution I have practiced so far -and which is not a good solution- is to take myself away from the situation completely. Whether it is a relationship or a friendship (friendships more often though).
Sometimes rightfully so, more often it is escapism, and that last one is not facing the real problems.
I have to start seeing where the problems arise, or red flags begin so I don’t feel the need to shut off completely because I have let it go on too long and too far.
First of all, Natalie… thank you, thank you, thank you for your insight and putting it out there for us all to see. For me, you have been a guiding light and a support (somewhat like the AA meeting for the alcoholic!). There have been days when I have had to come back and read stuff on this site every day and on bad days… every few hours!! Thanks to you I’m healing and finding my self-esteem again.
Next, I would like to get opinions on my situation so that I can see/hear what others come up with regarding this, as I find it so helpful to see what others see as my view has been so messed up, I don’t trust myself so much anymore! I am now (though working at doing it less) and have always been, as this article suggests taking so much blame both mine and others.
As the oldest adult daughter of an alcoholic parent I became really good at believing that my parents problems could be magically fixed by me through my actions. Leaving others to understand and deal with their own issues and not making it about me has been a constant, though it has gotten better with time. This last bit is what is really bringing it home and forcing me to reassess and change, finally!!!
Last year spring, my husband told me that he wondered if I’d be interested in an open marriage after 20 years together. “Oh, and also, hope you don’t mind… I already found someone, so now you can go find a friend for yourself too.” I was overwhelmed: 2 teenage children, no job, debt, two parents in bad health and I’m caring for them, so I took it as one who feels they have no power (martyr?) and blamed myself for his “needing” to do this because I’d been too busy with my kids and parents.
In pain and a bit of vengence, I did allow myself to find an online “friend” and was amazed to find someone so “perfect” for me. Warning to all!! When you are in a rebound situation with someone like this, you are NOT thinking straight and you WILL miss every single stinking red flag. I saw all of the signs I’ve read about on this site and I let Mr. Unavailable/AC Online slide on every single one because he must really like me to be so intensely passionate… even though he ran hot and cold and when he was cold … I took him back each time.
Throughout the next year I dealt with my mom’s becoming more and more sick and then, sadly, her passing, I went away for a couple of months to get distance and get my head straight, it really helped though not enough. There was now guilt that I had allowed this open marriage and what sort of person am I to do that. Sheesh! Yes, it was a stupid mistake and time to fix it not wallow in self-pity!
The last time with my online AC, he was telling me with great passion that he really loved me and wanted to marry me and told me all he would do for “us” in his future faking little world and I melted, awww …. until just days later he told me we needed to get over one another and stop having so much contact!! REALLY?
That was the last straw, I told him to move on and don’t look/call/text/write again.
Also important, I got rid of all traces of him in my life: pictures, emails, texts, voice messages, and that helped me to not stay stuck.
It was really hard AND YET, surprisingly… I was feeling massively better in about 2 weeks. I really thought I would mourn for months, nope, 2 weeks with an occasional sigh of missing him. Why? Because I started reading this site and seeing the situation so plainly laid out for me and had amazing “ahah” moments constantly.
Everything I thought about my relationships was dead WRONG!
Now that I have that online impediment to my mental health out of my head, time to figure out what to do about my husband. Yes, he was still seeing his gf and yes he was still at home with me with some of the usual perks. After all, we have kids and “I” have to make sure that everything looks normal for them… don’t I? OMG! Yes, I was/have been that deluded.
Now his gf is pulling away and he’s back giving me attention and yet I don’t trust him anymore. If he did this, what else do I not know about him and when will he find another gf to take the place of this one when times are tough between us in the future? The handwriting is on the wall with this relationship as well, times up.
I’m scared as hell at the prospect of entering my 50’s alone, yet I feel so much more empowered after reading Natalie’s wisdom as well as that of my sisters in this community. There WILL be a brighter and happier day for me in the near future (and perhaps when I’m more healed, someone to share it with), and I know this because I can see it from here… thanks!
I’m only 41 but I’m guessing that alone in your 50’s without a shady husband will be the time of your life. I bet you’ll wonder why you didn’t do it years ago 😉
Thanks Sunshine,
As my self-esteem increases I can sense that I will be better off.
🙂
Interestingly enough, I have found that I have been at my loneliest while in a “relationship.” If all you are looking for is a callous/unavailable body in the house with you then you definitely won’t be alone. But that doesn’t guarantee you won’t be lonely. I know…I have been there.
Sorry for everything you have gone through. Best wishes.
Thanks Lilian, you are so right.
Dear Hittheresestbutton
I can really understand the anguish you feel. Your husband is a selfish ass, and its all about him! So..he wants an open marriage after 20 years together…well lets make it really OPEN for him. I would OPEN the wardrobe, OPEN the suitcase and pack his miserable clothes into it and finally OPEN the front door and make sure it slams on his sorry ass. He had ALREADY found someone before he asked you about the open marriage! So while you are busy running around trying to hold it all together with your family and sick parents, and then the grief of losing your mom. He is thinking only of himself. Was he even there for you at this time? Is it any wonder that you were diving straight into a relationship with your AC. I think you will definately need to seek counselling support. Do you think that an open marriage is something you want? Its a risk and leaves YOU open to all sorts of dramas, not to mention STD’s. I personally could not handle it. I, too am in my 50’s and although it was difficult and stressful when my marriage ended, plus later being with the king of assclowns, I made it through. I have made my list of my relationship musts.
Love, Honour, Cherish, Respect and Protect. Nothing less.
Dear truth=freedom,
Thank you for a wonderful laugh, I needed to hear that. I hate feeling unsure of my next steps because of the years, history, and children. So I need to hear the other side and be reminded that by asking for a separation/divorce… I’m not ending/ruining the relationship, it was ended a year ago when he decided -without me, to even “think” of opening our marriage.
No, I don’t want an open marriage, it makes me feel sick and it feels wrong for me. Not judging others and what they want to do, for me, it doesn’t feel good.
Thank you also for letting me know that other women who have entered their second act of life are moving on and making a good or even much better life for themselves. 🙂
Dear Hittheresetbutton
I too, was in a similar situation. I was UNAWARE I was in an open marriage! Although HE knew it. I was married for 11 years and we had history and children together. He was swanning around with a much younger woman, using OUR family financial resources to wine and dine and have a good time and being the playboy! When I found out (because of a $20,000 dollar loan he took out to buy her a new car) I hit the roof and the reset button. Of course there was anger, tears and stress. I found the best legal advice, did not fight over the small stuff, (which costs a lot of money in legal circles), and I made my own decisions on what was right for me. How dare he, your husband, decide for you how you want to live your life. You are a strong woman, believe it. You are the backbone for your family, and you will get through it. I think better to make your choices now than in ten years time filled with regret. Your children will respect you for that, in no time at all they will be adults making their own decisions and you dont want to be left in a financial hole for his philanderings. Stay strong.
So sorry you went through this, Hitthereset! I can relate, my husband also started opening up our marriage at one point – only it was very confusing because he only hinted at us dating other people, and tried to make it sound like a joke when I didn´t respond with the enthousiasm he wanted.
Turns out he also had a gf already. This was when I was going through a very stressful time, busy with two kids – one of them doing bad at school – and my grandmother who was very sick at the moment.
Finally, when I thought we were getting close again, he decided to leave me. My grandmother passed away. Someone broke in my house with me inside. I became involved with a couple of ACs.
But you know, now I feel so much happier than when I lived with my ex! It´s incredible, I can´t imagine how I put up with all of his crap, even when we supposedly were fine. The kids are doing great, also in school.
I didn´t believe it when I was told I would be better off without him but it´s true! I often find myself laughing, something I had forgotten for a long time.
I read a number of relationship blogs and it seems that some of them perpetuate the “if only” scenario; that it’s always we womyn that do the wrong thing, are too emotional, needy etc. I have yet to see a column directed at men stating “know what you want before you pursue” , “don’t hit on womyn when you are not available”, etc. How come?
Because men don’t read advice & self help columns, by and large. Unless they’re ACs, in which case they read advice on how to trick and pressure women into bed asap.
I suppose women have traditionally been looked upon as the guardians of morals, whereas men were known to have animal passions and weren’t so much expected to control themselves.
Worse still! I’ve spent some time on male dating advice forums for a fly-on-the-wall approach and guess what: they learn exactly how to be unavailable, they are told: “keep her guessing, don’t let her figure you out or else she’ll lose the attraction for you, don’t let her peg you down, don’t commit to her, if she doesn’t put out by the third date, ditch her”… they are not taught how to do right by a woman, but how to control her and manipulate her.
I think some of you might not like that idea, but I think sexism might also play a role here. It’s always easy for the “dominant” part of the population to blame the “weaker” part for all kinds of sh*t, even if their reasoning is utterly ridiculous. Racists certainly get away with this (at least within their own circles).
I think us women struggle with the same problem to some extent. Many people (even in the media) still consider women inferior, even if they don’t admit it. If they want to give men a free pass for crappy behavior, then they need to blame someone else, and that is usually the woman.
But that doesn’t mean there aren’t men out there who DO respect women.
EllyB – I think there are certain stereotypes and traits that do get preyed on. I was just told today I was just so “delicate” and therefore can’t stand the heat of his horrible behavior. That’s not being delicate…that’s having boundaries. So I think there is some truth here.
EllyB,
You are spot on, and these mechanisms are well documented. I do not know where you live but in the US white males are definitely the dominant group (look at Congress and other parts of government to start with, business executives etc.) and there is power inherent in that. Women can and do succeed but they have to work many times harder than men to achieve the same position, similar salary etc.
Since men have most of the power (and economic and political power translates into the social one), female characteristics are less valued and looked down upon, i.e., being emotional, nurturing, or leeping relationships going. As a result, *women* are supposed to change and adjust to fit in with men.
People who will not agree with you (& me) will try to use anecdotal evidence to the contrary, but, alas, the large scale structural issues are indisputable at this point.
I recently heard a surprisingly thoughtful hip-hop song where the guy was writing about how what makes a woman a slut makes a man ‘a man,’ and the main point was about feeling guilty he cheated, considering telling his gf but knowing she’ll leave if he does, and also about all the pressure on men to have a big number of partners. I think there are a lot of men who “know what they want” but just are too cowardly to say so: little commitment, good times without responsibility, multiple partners. Many guys do read game-advice columns about how to score!
I know my ex used to indulge in the game/tactics sites and books, although he would never admit to it. It’s a little discouraging when I think of how many men think that’s the way to “win” a woman. Even some decent guys I know as friends have read that crap out of desperation or cluelessness, which worries me even more. I know I am still young and that there are great guys out there somewhere, but I sometimes get scared that I am never going to find a man who shares the same values and I can trust not to play games.
Me too. Im 28 and I wonder if it is end of show for me *..I know, I know*. I dont like to play games or be chased/wont excessively chase and Im not sure if there are men in my general age range,one who is happy to find and be with someone who is happy to be honest and happy and create a mature relationship based on common values. Am I asking for too much? I dont know…I am scared to. Very.
Magnolia – yes! Many of the men out there seem to want exactly what you wrote. How shallow. Reading about all the crappy behaviour on here can give the impression that all men are like this. I was lucky enough to have my busy brother over for dinner last night. Growing up in the same dysfunctional family that I did, he *does* have some EU behaviours (e.g., just moved back into the same house as the exwife he divorced 10 years ago, even though they do not have an intimate relationship. She has made HIM feel guilty about the demise of their marriage and he seems to willingly accept the blame). My long-time female friend is interested in going out with him, and has made that clear. Last night my brother made it clear he would love to have a relationship with, and to sleep with my friend. But he knows he is not available to her, considering his continued involvement with his exwife. So he won’t “go there” no matter how much he may enjoy it or how much fun it would be, or what messages he gets from other guys/pop culture about having multiple partners. I was impressed!
I agree. Lots of men want all short-term highs and then want to move on. I know it might sound absolutely strange but one of the men I really respect(ed) is someone I had a casual fling with – he openly communicated that thats what he wanted, didnt think it was right that I get involved because I am a ‘girlfriend-girl’ and respected the rules that I wanted when I did decide to get involved. Plus, when it was time to call quits, he came home, told me that he didnt want to see me anymore because he doesnt feel right anymore. It was an experience that helped me learn that casual sex was not for me – but I did appreciate the fact that he was honest and did see that he had a duty of care towards me (he was a massive man whore though, so I not sure why he was this respectful..)
I’m wading in here.
My youngest brother married his third girlfriend. My brother has had three girlfriends, two of whom he married. (His first wife cheated and even then he would have stuck it out if she hadn’t got pregnant as a result of the affair). I reckon the man I’m seeing likely hasn’t had sex, as is the case for most of the young men at church. The 22 y/o man at work has been with his girlfriend for four years and they’ve bought a house together. Many of the young male lawyers I know are still with the women they met at university. Some of them are married already. With kids.
It’s not the case that all men shag around or, even, I hazard most men. Those men are just more visible. The men at home with their girlfriends/wives, or walking around a park just holding hands with their date *ahem*, aren’t ever going to be chasing you, sexting you or cheating on or with you. Why would you notice them.
And, no, I don’t live in Narnia. I work in the City of London.
narnia….heeee…..
I live in London too and see so many happy couples, but I do not think I will ever be one of them:-(
Little Star – I live near and work in Central London, I know and have seen many happy couples, but I don’t think that can’t ever be me. It can be you, me or any of us here. One thing I don’t buy is that there aren’t any good men out there. There are plenty we just haven’t met them yet.
Grace I have to agree with you and I live in a large U.S. city with a high percentage of singles. I work in a male dominated industry and almost all that I work closely with are married for quite a while, love their wives, talk about their families all the time and do things with them. The ones that arent married are engaged and are as excited about it as any female I’ve known. Yes I do think this is the majority but its the ‘bad’ ones that get all the press.
The man I was seeing for 7 to 8 months; started to play a “fading away” , pushy/pully game & eventually disappeared/went dark on me 4 weeks after we came back from spending the Mayday Bank Holiday weekend away together. I wanted to break up with him, face to face, cos my gut instinct was telling me that he used me was losing interest. Alas, I never got that chance cos he reneged on 3 dates, & on the 3rd date, cue disappearing act. I tried to phone him a week & a half later, to try & get some answers/closure, no answer. I tried to phone again 3 weeks after the disappearing act, again no answer. A minute after the last attempt at phoning, he text me “I’m really busy at the moment” lamest excuse ever, who does he think he is Barack Obama? lol. Hours later I logged on to facebook & he had posted a status. Busy!! my arse!! So obvious he’s not interested anymore, but he’s such a coward that he could not be straight with me. 3 weeks later I inboxed him on FB saying, “everything OK, as I’m mystified as to what is going on, one minute we were chatting & we were going to meet on Jubilee Bank Holiday weekend & then you go dark on me. It’s disrespectful & I don’t deserve the silent treatment”. 3 days later, he replied “everything’s sort of OK, but I’m suffering from heavy depression & need to be alone, as for going dark… that’s depression for you” At that point I said to myself, NC all the way from now on. 3 days from his reply, he blocked me on FB. It’s as though he doesn’t trust me to leave him alone. To block me on FB is such a cop-out, a cowardly act & passive aggression. I’m moving on from this assclown, with difficulty because there was no closure. I sometimes feel, perhaps him blocking me is all my fault cos I tried to phone him & I inboxed him that message. If only I never tried to phone him & now I wish I did not send him that message. It’s silly I know, he probably blocked me cos of the way that he is, he seems to have a trust issue & no other reason. I now wish I started NC sooner; i.e. when he went dark on me at the beginning of June.
Maria
It’s facebook. My 16yo niece doesn’t play these games with her boyfriend and I suggest we don’t either. It’s very juvenile and undignified. I’ve done it myself so I understand why you did it but, really, don’t! It’s not worth your analysis of the ins and outs of friending, defriending, blocking etc.
This man is commitment-phobic and bolted when he sensed the relationship was becoming permanent. The more you chase him the more he bolts. Stop chasing and he’ll be back. And then bolt again next time you have a holiday, go to a wedding together, have a milestone birthday, or anything really. Let my prediction be your closure. Nothing for you here. Grieve, heal, move along.
Thanks for the advice Grace. I am now trying to heal from this & move on. I’m pulling the mental flush handle as Nat puts it. I’m not wasting anymore time & on this EUM/assclown. I’ve done NC now for over 3 weeks.
Maria H, I would like to inquire further about your situation. (And anyone else please comment as well) I’ve been seeing my guy for almost 8 months and I’m feeling a sublte shift. After my epiphany relationshit, I spent a year working on me. And was doing very well. Then I met the bf. He’s been wonderful. We’ve taken things slow and communicated well. It’s been VERY healthy. So I’m having trouble putting my finger on what’s changed exactly. I now feel I’m standing in a mine field and “one false move”…… BOOM. We had a talk a few days ago and it went well but I’m leary of the slow fade. (I got that move before) So now I feel weird and uncomfortable. (Cue self-esteem issues) I don’t want to be insecure, negative, or hypersensitive and reactionary. I know that’s not attractive. Nor healthy for me. So now I’m struggling with keeping myself positive when what I really want to do is tell him to speak up or f*ck off. Before he can downgrade me AND waste more of my time. (Feelin’ you there, Skepticrina) And that sounds OTT, even to my own ears considering he’s been great. I reread some BR posts yesterday about fear. Which did help. But I’m really interested to know if there were red flags you think you might have missed. Flags I may be missing now.
lois-
that sounds very unpleasant. i can’t tell from what you’re saying what the flags could be, you weren’t detailed enough. you’re feeling something, but the question is, is it coming from you, him, or both? is he actually doing the slow fade? or are you just afraid he will?
suggestions:
1- make a list of the things that are freaking you out. don’t hold back, make it comprehensive. put the list away for 24 hours and then look at it again with fresh eyes. you’ll probably find some things you can evaluate for flag-hood. or find that you’re just freaking yourself out.
2- CHILL. don’t bring up any more relationship talks. you’re not desperate. so don’t act desperate. be easy with yourself. do not judge yourself. do not criticize yourself. you will be fine no matter what happens. this is not a pass/fail.
3- actually, this should be 1 – and i can’t say this strongly enough – do not allow yourself to dwell in insecure-land. put the focus back on your life. make plans with other friends, do your hobbies, concentrate FULLY on anything else besides him. don’t blow him off, be sweet to him, just don’t have all the focus on him. fill yourself with other things. remind yourself that while you love him, you are an independent person who has her own life. if you’ve been slacking off on taking care of your own life, then reverse that TODAY.
4- try to stop being angry that he might be wasting your time – when it is you who are holding your breath, which is a form of wasting (your own) time. so maybe you’re mad at you, too. stop that. breathe. live your life.
then see where you are. hang in there for a while and see what happens. maybe he just needs a little time to choose you. commitment is hard for some people. in the meantime you do NOT WAIT. you LIVE.
i hope it all works out.
but you always have a choice. you can end it any time you want. and if he doesn’t step up, or tries to downgrade you, either tell him you can’t date him exclusively any more or dump his ass.
Lois,
From what you’ve posted, I can’t understand what has changed either. I could not spot any red flags as your relationship was healthy. Talk to him & ask what has changed or what is wrong & good luck. You’re right that he should speak up or f*** off before he can downgrade you. I started seeing the EUM last October after a few months of him chasing me, as to begin with I was not all that interested. But he was funny, witty & had a good sense of humour & we got on very well. The first 6 weeks or so everything went really well & started to have feelings for him. Then things got more sporadic & had a talk with him as I felt that this was going nowhere & he said that he was not cheating on me or misleading me. That he had his head buried in his books as he’s a mature student at college. He said that he will try harder & sure enough he stepped up & things were good again for 2 to 3 months before the disappearing act. Around the end of march he led me to believe we cemented our relationship. We then went away for 2 nights on the Mayday Bank Holiday weekend. When we came back he started to downgrade us & when he suggested we go out 2 days after the downgrade. I agreed to the date, so that I could break up with him face to face cos I realised that he used me to get me into bed & we wanted different things. Unfortunately, he cancelled on me. He started playing the fading away & pushy/pully game. Actions not matching words, etc. He reneged on 2 more dates & cue disappearing act.
Maria,
I really feel for you, and in a way I don’t think you’re seeing just how manipulatively he treated you. I am rooting for you to get really angry!
To use depression, which is a real thing, and can in fact make people self-isolate, as a way to shut up your needs and also activate your empathy and disarm your self-protection, is really really low.
Blocking you was cowardly and shameful. You went on a nice trip, he got scared about commitment, and he flaked out on you, disrespected you, and denied you an adult conversation.
Please, if he should pop back up in a few weeks-months and tug on your empathy with how he “was going through a lot” or “went to a dark place,” and expect you to forgive and forget the whole thing, please do not take the bait. I don’t buy the depressed story, although he might be sometimes depressed when he gets a flash of insight into what a pure assclown he is.
Ixnay,
Thanks for your thoughts. I do not believe he’s depressed either. He’s just using depression as an excuse to try & guilt-trip me, cos I tried to phone him & then inboxed him on FB. I’m now on week 4 of NC. I don’t think that I will hear from him again. But should he try to contact me by phone , he won’t get through to me cos I got a new phone a day or two before I got blocked & it’s a different number. I did not give him the new number as his behaviour’s appalling.
Lois Lane – I felt a bit queasy reading your comment. You’re pointing out so many times how “wonderful” and “very healthy” he is and how he’s “been great”. Anyway, that’s just words.
What exactly was so “great” and “healthy” about him? You don’t need to reveal those details to us, but I think you need to ask yourself this question. Are you being honest with yourself?
All I can see is that you’re feeling umcomfortable and insecure. I think that might be a red flag in itself. A bit of insecurity is okay and might be simply due to our “leftover baggage”, but if you feel you’re “standing in a mine field”, that sounds way too much to me.
You seem to be struggling with self-doubt. “I don’t want to be insecure, negative, or hypersensitive and reactionary. I know that’s not attractive.” Maybe there is a reason why you feel that way? Don’t get things twisted. A healthy guy would be compassionate when you’re feeling down. He wouldn’t question your “attractivity”.
I’m not in your shoes, I don’t know about the details, but I’m not entirely convinced you’re in a “healthy” relationship if you feel that way. Honestly.
Lois
I was stricken down by anxiety when I was getting to know the man. I wanted to bolt but he had done nothing wrong. We were “just friends” at that time and I really wanted to push it to a resolution. I was prepared to drop him just so I would have certainty. It’s not true that anxiety means there is something to worry about. I would even say we sometimes feel anxious because there IS NOTHING to worry about. We think “hang on, this is too good to be true/ too quiet/ too normal. SOMETHING MUST BE GOING ON I DON’ T KNOW ABOUT!
Has anything changed? Does he call less, respond less quickly, are you spending less time together? Are you thinking this may lead to marriage and it’s scaring you? Do you think all your relationships are doomed? Maybe, like me, the thought of having to share a home with someone (anyone) gives you the heebie jeebies.
Whatever, try to be mindful and not feed the anxiety. That’s what gives clarity. Worrying and looking for dragons may seem to be protective and proactive, but in my experience it achieves nothing except making you feel bad. It could keep you stuck in a bad relationship and could sabotage a good one.
Thanks everyone for your comments! I really appreciate it. I think I’m still dealing with the fallout from the ex and I’m freaking out because this new relationship has been good. I needed to take that HUGE deep breath!
cc, I must be BR trained because I took your advice already. 🙂 And I think grace may have nailed it. I didn’t go into detail but when I sat down and truly looked at the relationship, he has treated me like a princess. Not kidding. Our schedules are hectic, we work different hours and have different ‘weekends’, btw he has two jobs, and combined we have 3 young children. And he has made me a PRIORITY. Seriously. (Never buy that busy crap, ladies. EVER! Bought that line before. Lesson learned there.) He’s open, compassionate, supportive, honest, no shady phone habits, fakebook habits, nothing. The “talk” arrived because I was having anxiety about our plans to live together. I spoke to him and he voiced his concerns as well and we decided to wait. I think I was just surprised because HE HAD CONCERNS AT ALL. He always seems so…..certain. It’s been since then that I have been freaking out. And I can’t actually find one concrete thing that has changed! Oi!
I took a deep breathe and realized that I have to chill out and stay authentic. I DO KNOW when I’m being treated less than. I know shady behavior. It’s not happening here. And I always have options. Unfortunately, I have always wanted to control the uncontrolable AND be a mind reader. LOL! I’ve worked hard on me and damn those ingrained habits! AND I’m scared shitless of this being REALLY real!
BUT….. no matter what, I’m golden. I have great friends, at home and on BR!, family, job, activities, a gorgeous son, and my own home. I’ll be just fine whether it works out or not. I just have to remember to stay true to me and enjoy my life. Thanks for the wise words. I needed the reminders!
lois-
oh good! so glad that you weren’t actually getting shady behavior, that you’re sounding so solid and that things seem to be rolling along in an ok way.
yay!
Lois.. all you need to do is put the focus back on you.. take care of you.. get out with friends, do what you did before you met him.. he’ll notice. If he steps up, then maybe it was just about him getting ‘comfortable and relaxed’ (guys get like that approaching the 1 year mark), if he keeps his distance, then I’d let him know how you’re feeling. Honestly, it really is that simple. Take the focus off of him, back on to you… and eventually you’ll know the answers. Hey, it’s better than being miserable trying to figure someone out.. get out and have a good time, don’t waste it on wondering what someone else is thinking, or why they’re doing this or that… not worth the energy.
Demke
But what if both parties decide to back off and refocus on no. 1? What happens to the relationship then?
In a relationship, it’s not about looking after no. 1 anymore, which I am coming to terms with. I’m not used to that, I’d been single for six years.
As for men getting complacent after a year, in my more stable relationships, it was me who would get bored and blow the relationship out of the water with diabolical behaviour, leaving the men reeling.
Yes, men and women are different but no more so than any two individuals.
A lot of The Rules and generalisations are down to our fear of making a false move, so we strategise according to what men and women are like. But as I am finding out in my current relationship a lot of those stereotypes don’t hold up.
Ultimately, trust yourself and him (if he’s proven himself trustworthy) and work it out together.
I guess it’s okay to give someone space if you’re not yet married but – not too much! We shouldn’t get too used to that dynamic.Backing off may feel safer than coming forward but safe isn’t alway best.
PS This is not the same as chasing someone who has clearly left the building.
“don’t waste it on wondering what someone else is thinking, or why they’re doing this or that… not worth the energy”. Absolutely, I spent a lot of time analysing the man when I had my crush on him. I was wrong on pretty much all counts.
I’m really enjoying these posts and have learned a lot from them, as well as from all the amazing, strong women who have shared similar experiences as me. I too struggle with this idea of blame. I did this, I did that, blah blah to cause him to do certain behaviors and if it wasn’t for me he wouldn’t have strayed blah blah. This is so not true in my situation because he’s the one that pursued me first (twice. I didn’t take the bait the first time so he decided to try again, all the while living with a girlfriend)….I just allowed myself to get caught up in it all because I had feelings for the loser, even though I knew he had a girlfriend. We never got physical, mainly because of my resistance to the fact that he was dating someone. I struggle with the thought of him being a ‘family man’ and me being the ‘temptation.” I know it’s not true. If he was a family man he wouldn’t have pursued me for sex in the first place. It’s just really difficult to get this through my head, trying not to blame myself for being human. Gah! Love you all!!
yep.
we, as inveterate blame-takers, are really sitting ducks for EUMs and ACs who are MORE than happy to blame us for everything, including, most especially, in fact, their own behavior. the messages we get from these guys only echo the messages we received as children, grinding them in even further.
we need to do everything in our power to grow ourselves out of this burden of victimhood. to break the cycle.
as my brother peter once said to me, “wait – in all seriousness – you actually think you’re responsible for the weather, don’t you???” before i could stop myself, my honest reply was out of my mouth, “yeeessss…..”
no more. not since i lived through every word natalie just posted trying to get over the ex-EUM. going through that was like crawling through a field paved with razor wire.
never again.
thank you, natalie, so much. you NAILED it.
I have been on this website for a month now since I discovered my ex was married, lied to me about being married. Just when I thought I was making great strands in healing myself, I receive an email from his wife. Back track a couple of months ago, I made contact and then walked away. It was basically to inform her of what happened, and to apologise and end it.
Apparently, it was the wake up call she needed to break off from the relationship. To be honest, our chat was helpful to put me in better perspective and see more the horrible person the ex was. She mentioned she is divorcing him, but apparently the man is making it difficult – he does get his perks from being married since he is unemployed. She’s asking me to have a testament in writing of what happened to help speed up the process. It seems this scum is not doing anything, as he still can avail of the wive’s assets legally.
As much as I would want to help out, this is definitely an area that I am so at lost right now. I am not sure about the legal implications should I help out. Anyone out there with any thoughts?
Short of the expense of getting a consult with an actual lawyer, may I suggest the forum at
survivinginfidelity.com
Lots of firsthand experience there, and a sadly huge membership. I’ve never seen anyone post a situation that someone didn’t immediately respond that they had the same experience. In other words, someone there will have been in either your or the wife’s position and has already been to court or submitted the affadavit.
I love the idea of you helping her out. This guy wrecks lives and is a liar, and she deserves all her assets.
Try posting on the “separation/divorce’ board, where everyone is sharing info on court stuff.
hope it all works out.
B- maybe consider why you want to still be involved in anything that has to do with your… ‘ex’. You know he’s a horrible person, and you’re done. So, why get involved? Revenge? to prove how bad he is? I get it. But, the end result may be… is just keeping yourself in the ‘drama’, instead of moving on with your life. I can understand sympathizing with his ‘wife’, because this AC obviously put you both through the wringer. But is this “horrible” person really worth anymore of your precious time? and going into spending even more of your time figuring out the legalities of getting involved? If it were me.. I would explain to his wife that although you sympathize and understand, you wish her the best, and that it would be in your best interest if you did not involve yourself in their legal matters.
Natalie,
Oh my goodness, yes, I am so good at taking the blame for just about anything and feeling super-responsible for everyone else’s problems. Probably facilitated by being the oldest child of an alcohol-abusing father and a mother who slept most days as she worked permanent night shifts. Now that I have experienced 3 years of OW hell, I am having trouble trying to stop blaming myself for the whole mess.
It is sad that we would even take on the blame for how an exMM may have behaved, but I suppose that is just how ingrained this all is. After reading Mr U, I have come to the painful realization that I was not a “regular garden variety” of OW, but I was an “OW to the OW” in that the exMM had a long-term OW for ten years, and I was an additional OW (unbeknownst to me till May) for the last 3 years. I am now blaming myself for not getting out sooner than I did, even though I had a gut feeling he was keeping something big like this from me. Even though he sent her a break-up email, it’s apparent they are back together as I try to process all this, “scrape my self-esteem from the floor”, and get on with my life.
I am trying to focus on my own healing (taking care of myself, working out, eating better, just starting your “values pack” now) but something you wrote in this post has me wondering about the exMM. You wrote that you’ve had people write that if they’d “…. had ‘qualities’ that stop someone who is already addicted to drugs/sex/alcohol/gambling to stop being addicted, that they would have a experienced a different outcome.” In trying to process my experience (as I tend to be very analytical like some others who post here), I have wondered if the exMM has a sex addiction. Other posters have mentioned being involved with sex addicts. I have googled the term, but there wasn’t much I came across that seemed reliable. My motivation for figuring this out is to hopefully see red flags for this in future men I may meet. Does this sound like it may apply?
1) married plus 2 mistresses (even tho he told me – the OW to the OW – that he was “very satisfied with our entire relationship and didn’t need anyone else” puke!)
2) always checking out women around him while claiming he found what they were wearing was interesting or something
3) watches or reads porn daily
4) I suspect he had an account on “F**kbook plus adult chat sites
5) likes to have sex for literally hours
6) enjoyed sexting
Sorry if this is not completely on topic, but my brain won’t stop trying to explain all the pieces of this evil puzzle of which I have allowed myself to become a part.
Hey Learner,
Are you my sister? Sounds like we had the same mother and father! I completely understand the blame phase when the denial cracks. I’m still working through self-blame to owning my responsibility for the mess. You sound like you are staying strong and recognize that you were the OW to the OW. Yuck and so sorry. It may be time to stop wondering about the motivations of the ex-cheating-cheater. Natalie did a great post in May: “Do You Really Need To Investigate What Someone’s Intentions Were Or Prove That You’re ‘Right’?” Here’s the thing about figuring out our particular brand of red flag: Topline data, if they are married or attached, it’s a no go. Then we don’t get stuck in OW hell for 2-3 years and then spend another 2-3 years googling why men cheat or whether they are sex addicts. I know it may seem important now but whether the exMM is a sex addict or not doesn’t seem relevant. He does sound very creepy. He could be a married sex addict and/or he could be a cheating married man. In both cases, he’s married. Not to sound holier than thou by any means. In order to investigate him, I googled “Why Men Cheat” and that’s when I found BR and my sanity. Thus, I think the topline is if they are married, it doesn’t matter much what they are addicted to. After we recognize the red flag of married/attached and run for the hills, then we can start working on the more “subtle” red flags of blowing hot/cold, addictions, and the host of other issues associated with EUM/AC’s. In the meantime, keep the focus on YOU.
Runnergirl
Yes, it does seem we have had very similar childhoods from what I have read on your posts.
*sighing* and yes, you are right about where I should be putting my focus – on my own healing. It;s just that I still can’t believe all this happened with the guy I thought I wanted to spend my life with. I see now that he *is* creepy (what was I thinking?) however, when we met, we did have that strong connection – very strong – that I mistook for love and wanted to base a life partnership on. My brain can’t seem to shut off trying to make sense of things. I am sooo ashamed of being an OW to the OW. While I am trying to find my own reasons for allowing that to happen (have had 2 counselling sessions now), I also have a part of my brain that seems to be wondering about what’s wrong with HIM that he could be so utterly selfish, with no regard for my feelings. It’s difficult to turn off that part of my brain. I still wake up every morning, and my first thought is of him and the “OOW”. Then it wanders to possible explanations of how I could have been roped into his dark world. Believe it or not, he is a very personable man, and people generally regard him as “such a nice guy”. If he really is a sex addict or a sociopath, or a compulsive liar, it would seem to help me understand how I was “sucked in” to his lies. It may help to mitigate my self-blame for this mess.
OK, OK, taking a deep breath here. I missed your main point. He is married. I should not have had anything to do with him in the first place. I just read Natalie’s article about understanding his intentions that you suggested. You are both right, of course. I need to understand why *I* got involved, not why *he* acted the way he did. I am dropping out of the PhD program with a major in this creepy exMM and a minor in self-understanding. Switching to the program with a major in self-understanding and a minor in boundary-placement and values. Thank you for your reply.
Learner,
where you are now I think is ‘normal’ for this stage of NC; you will move beyond this. Take heart.
“I also have a part of my brain that seems to be wondering about what’s wrong with HIM that he could be so utterly selfish, with no regard for my feelings. […] I still wake up every morning, and my first thought is of him and the “OOW”.
Learner, you were but one of three women (that we know of) whose feelings he has no regard for – and one of those is his wife, who has a right to expect regard for her feelings (and I’m not even including the women he leers at on and off line or his f**k buddies on the f***kbook and adult chat sites here). So his lack of regard for the feelings of women in his life has nothing to do with you! (other than that you imagined – and would still like to believe – that you were the exception; you’re not, I’m afraid. And that what hurts – that a cheater and liar and creepy creep of man didn’t stop being a cheater and liar and a creep man – for you! You are not an exception (there aren’t any exceptions!). His wife and OW (and for all we know his f*k-buddies on-line and whoever else he might be effing around) believe they are the exception too! You get that they are not the exception – you *know* they’re not – and if they knew about you they would get that you are not the exception (they would *know* you are not). His behaviour is not about you (you don’t figure in it – He is just a predatory creep of man who wants as much sex as he can get from wherever and whoever. Is he a sex addict? Who cares. Probably. A rose by any other name and all that; call it what you like, it still stinks and the result here for you is the same whatever label you find for him. His behaviour is about him. You’re behaviour is about you.
It’s telling that you wake up every day thinking of the OW. I think the top-line info is still off your radar: He is *married*. If you need to be jealous of someone then focus on his wife; then it’ll start to sink in that *married* was your big mistake, not the (other) OW, and *married* is her big mistake too (*married* is all the info you need; the rest is neither here nor there – it’s just a distraction from the real problem.
Don’t mean to be hard on you – just straight…. you’re doing good!
…and sorry if I’ve wandered away from topic.
Fearless,
Not to add more self-blame here, but YES, I am guilty of thinking I could be the exception re: the exMM. When he looked into my eyes and said he loved me so much in the most sincere of tones, when our eyes met after I had kissed every inch of him and told him I adored him (yuck), when he told me he would walk for days just to see me for 5 minutes – to see the look in my eyes when we held each others’ gaze, when he told me I had opened his heart and he felt like he was “home” in my arms, I was *sure* that I was on the verge of rescuing him from his horrendous childhood and lifetime of not knowing what it was to be loved.
How delusional and misguided I was!
Yes, I get it that he is married – I *was* jealous of his wife for the 3 years, but having been lead to believe she was Cruella DeVille personified, I didn’t feel she was much of a threat to my delusional relationship with her husband! I couldn’t understand how he didn’t choose me after I had bent over backwards so far that I was a human pretzel (this is past tense please realize!!!). I didn’t know that his loyalty and reason for his vacillation possibly lay more with the “OOW” over the 3 years, and it totally threw me.
I now feel sorry for this original OW. She must be hurting so badly, especially since she and her husband (who has a debilitating condition) socialize quite frequently with exMM and wife. It must be tough for her to hide her “love” for him, and not to be acknowledged as a “significant other”. Sometimes I feel like reaching out to her, to warn her, but that is her battle to fight and I don’t want to add more hurt for her, OR for exMM’s wife.
OK, enough about the creep who didn’t become uncreepified despite my loving “devotion”. I have had a productive evening exploring literature and websites about adult children of alcoholics. I now feel even more like I am one of many people with similar experiences (along with all of you on BR). It’s reassuring. I am more excited than ever to grow as a person and to become more healthy.
Thanks for continuing to “give it to me straight” Fearless, even as you strive to continue healing yourself. It’s a very caring thing to do, and appreciated more than you will ever know.
After reading the posts here of all the wicked behavior being accepted and performed, it makes me feel that the whole world has gone mad. I am happy to see that a lot of people including myself have finally ‘seen the light’. Another poster here said it ‘the most alone Ive ever felt is in a relationship with an unavailable man’. Me too.
WOW this is me, ive even had breakdowns because of my childhood and my Mum dying at fourteen because i was a pain b4 she got ill, my family blamed me for everything and said i was defective, im slowly piecing together my life and who i AM in therapy but i think im to blmae 4 everything so much so that when i read fallback girl i hated myself which in turn keeps me trapped which i blame myself for even more, lol, STOP the cycle whirling round in my head. I just ended it with a eum with a guy i was seeing and iv tortured myself because he said i would have been rubbish in bed, but i wouldnt sleep with him, how could he know???? we had sum great passion but i explained i wanted it to b special and also my gut was telling me NO by doing complete somersaults as the things he said and did made me realise he was into sum weird stuff which i will not go into, also hot and cold, but also he was v hot so my ego was loving it until he started to grind me down with put downs which took the light out of it, i treat it like a relapse as i was feeling good b4 my self esteem was starting to get foundation and building up at a low level but i was getting sumwhere, but he had all the old elements, he blamed me for everything, he told me i was wrong period, defective so it was familiar but i got out quick and am learning that i still find it hard to let it go, therapy and these articles r my saviour, ive been destroying myself 4 to long, my mother got Pneumonia how could that b my fault, maybe just maybe its time i forgave myself even if i start only with a couple of hours a day 🙂 .
oh, rachael-
you poor thing. this makes me soooooo mad.
14-year-olds are supposed to be pains, that’s their job! that had nothing to do with your mother’s illness!! and its terrible that your family made you the scapegoat. i’m so sorry you suffered such a terrible loss followed by such horrible, UNJUST punishment. who are these people?!?!? please, see that it was THEY who did this to YOU – not the other way around.
and oh. my. god, ” he said i would have been rubbish in bed”…that’s abuse!!! do you see how its abuse?
please, please, do learn to put this terrible, crushing burden down. because, as you’ve already experienced, until you do, you will keep choosing romantic partners who abuse you and duplicate your awful family dynamic, and you will always be abused. you will always be the scapegoat. no! no more abuse! no more scapegoat!
do you see? you don’t need forgiveness – THERE IS NOTHING TO FORGIVE. YOU DID NOTHING WRONG.
so don’t work on forgiving yourself. work on seeing that you did nothing wrong.
every 1/2 hour, for every waking hour, i want you to repeat to yourself, “why should i have to forgive myself? i did nothing wrong!” say that every 30 minutes, for as many hours, days, weeks, months as it take until you believe it. because its TRUE.
THEN – when you believe it – i warn you, you’re going to get PISSED OFF at your family. you will get ANGRY. now, anger is not always a productive emotion, and we do not want you to dwell permanently in rage-ville. but its OK when you get angry at them, you have every right to. don’t let it frighten you. you’re entitled to it. use it. you need a warrior to defend you. use that anger to make yourself your own warrior.
do not take any more crap from your family. anyone who even looks at you funny or gives you the slightest nasty tone – you say “no, i don’t accept this treatment from you. who do you think you are? who do you think you’re talking to? you will treat me respectfully or i will not speak to you at all.” and then ACT on it. they’ll think you’re crazy, but it is THEY who have been crazy all these years. you just rock on with your new self. because who treats a child like that?? honestly!!
you take care of you, rachael. start now. you are worth defending.
Rachael – my narcissistic mother always blamed me both for her migraine and for her drinking. She said she needed hard liquor in the morning because otherwise she wouldn’t be able to cope with me!
Until last year, I BELIEVED all of this. Only then did I read a book about toxic parents who blame their kids for their alcoholism and how abusive that is.
What your family did was even worse than that. If your mother dies while you’re a teenager, that’s awful enough. Heaping guilt on you is… I am at a loss for words.
Unfortunately, their behavior is so OUTRAGEOUS that we don’t want to believe it. At first it seems easier to continue to blame ourselves, but in the long run the pain we’re putting ourselves through is horrible.
Therefore we need to face the truth. We owe it to ourselves. Their behavior was inacceptable.
You, on the other hand, were totally ok, and you still are.
This post really hit home for me. My boyfriend of almost two years broke up with me just a week ago and I have not been able to stop blaming myself for the ending of my relationship. He said he didn’t see us working out in the future (after graduation as we are both in college) and although I wanted him to wait to see what could happen in a year when we both graduate, he didn’t seem open to the idea and basically wrote the relationship off right then and there. I understand we might want different things.
However, after giving me that reason he proceeded to list all the things I did wrong while we were together. these included getting too emotional while drunk and the month in our relationship where I was going through a hard time with my job and family and would vent about it to him. He said I was being too negative during that time and dumping my problems on him. We had talked about this when it was happening and I saw how I was being a downer and thought we were past it. It confused me that he brought it up again while we were breaking up and made me feel guilty that I was negative around him for that time period.
I will admit I was anxious about our relationship a lot. Sometimes I would voice my insecurities and sometimes I’d keep them to myself because he’d get annoyed when I’d talk about them. Part of me feels like my insecurities came from not getting my needs met and then part of me feels there was no reason for me to feel like he didn’t care etc. I also feel like this contributed
to us ending, adding on more blame. I can’t stop believing that I pushed him away and caused him to fall out of love with me.
I am now stuck thinking like if only we didn’t have this disagreement or if only I didn’t do all those things he said that we’d still be together. I know this was long but I guess I’d like some perspective
If he loved you and was a caring human being, those things wouldn’t have put him off. People put up with a lot of crap to be with the one they love (as we are all living testament to :-/ …) He’s using the few things you did that weren’t “perfect” (and we all have our difficult times, negative times) as excuses instead of being honest and taking responsibility for the way he feels. Don’t blame yourself. As someone said, real relationships are not like fragile pieces of china that we have to handle with kid gloves. A real relationship between two loving, supportive people can handle the rough patches. If your relationship was going to last it would have gotten through that stuff, also the fact that you felt insecure and needed reassurance which you didn’t seem to get seems to say he wasn’t very supportive or reassuring of you and how much you meant to him? Only you’ll know the answer to that one. But the bottom line is if something that small broke his feelings for you, they were going to be broken anyway. Don’t take the blame for his fickle heart xx
Edp
Those are just excuses to free him from feelings of guilt. Don´t acknowledge his complaints, it´s very unfair and immature to blame you for a decision he is taking all by himself.
Just to illustrate: when I confronted my EUM on why he would future fake, tell me every day for months he wants to be with me but then never do anything about it (and tell me he doesn´t have time when I want to see him), he told me I was always the one to end the conversation when he called/IM-ed me.
He said I always had to do something else after a while (a while could be more than an hour), told him goodbye and left him “talking alone”.
So, is having things to do other than talking on the phone a legitimate impediment to have a normal relationship? I don´t think so.
Don´t let yourself be manipulated into feeling guilty. He has behaved poorly and he knows it, so that´s why he is making up all that bs.
I broke NC yesterday after 11 months with my ex-EUM (I use this word so loosely since we were always only casually involved for 6 ½ years on-off). I called him without an agenda, I thought that it had been long enough and it was strange not talking to him. I did a lot of work on myself thanks to BR. For me, it was the right decision, I cried a bit while I was out with him and it was quite cathartic. The realization set in that I am no longer in love with this person and I do not want to go back or be the FBG. They were happy tears.
It was liberating, we spoke like adults and the decision to get on with our lives felt better & mutual. It was the first time in years that I saw him for who he is, not the person that I had previously given all my power to and put on a pedestal. I had built him up to be someone he wasn’t and he obviously couldn’t live up to my image of him. It also allowed me to avoid slipping back in illusion/fantasy about the What Ifs. I do not plan to stay closely in touch; this is easier since we live in different cities anyway.
He had originally left me b/c he couldn’t give me what I needed when I said the casual relationship wasn’t good enough for me. He used the next girl as an emotional airbag. I am glad I took 7 months of alone time with BR to work on myself instead of seeking validation from the next person.
I found that I used to always blame myself as posted in this article for the reasons why he wouldn’t commit to me, thinking I was of the wrong ethnicity, religion, physically not his type, perhaps not adventurous enough in bed, not of the same socio-economic class, etc. I have learned so much, yesterday as I drove home, I was thinking about how I wish I could give Natalie a huge hug for all the wisdom she has bestowed upon me.
I really channelled those words Fearless posted the other day about “He’s not that special and I’m not that desperate”. I know this can be a slippery slope and I’m not suggesting in any way that other BR readers ought to follow suit.
I have stopped blaming myself for it not working out, I realize that I chose him as a partner because he reflected my low self-esteem. It is so true that life will bring around the same lessons until you learn them. In the past, it was he who would return blowing hot/cold air. He truly is EUM, still says it to this day and I don’t want any part of it. We talked mostly about our careers and families. He is seeing someone now and it didn’t bother me at all, I felt like I was off the hook and it made me feel comfortable knowing that he didn’t have intentions to slip back into my life.
I feel wiser, as if I finally get it. I know that one doesn’t have to be friends with their ex or seek that validation, I think for us, friendly on occasion will do. I think letting go of the anger was a tremendous thing. I know his shortcomings aren’t my fault and that I can’t task myself with making him change. He was sincere in respecting my decision for NC after the break-up and respectful when I saw him.
I had posted here before about being that person who couldn’t take a hint. I was trying to do anything/everything to convince him to date me. I see how foolish it was. I did date someone else for 3 months but flushed after shady behaviour started coming about. (The old me wouldn’t have been able to walk away). All I can say to other readers is that you must make yourself a priority, go through the emotions, move forward, it does get better and life goes on.
This is still going to come up in my life (low-esteem/bad habits) but I feel I have a grasp on it. I have my feet firmly planted in reality. He was just another guy, and I thought that it is possible for me to find someone who is a better fit and is capable of giving me mutual trust, respect, love and commitment. I am working to be better and keep learning from all of you. Thank you.
thanks for your story atrophy. im so glad you have attained the peace we wish for. its an inspiration to us all, that it will work out in the end even if we are in pain now. there is going to be a rainbow.
Thank you Atrophy for this. I hope one day soon I will be at this stage.
atrophy
There may be a “comedown” in day, week, or month. If there is, ride it out and don’t see it as a sign to seek more closure. It may or may not be the case that you’re feeling a buzz from having seen him.
i’m glad this worked out for you but while YOU may be done, it may cause a reaction from HIM. So he may come back for another round.
After a year I contacted an ex-EUM which resulted in marriage and then a swift divorce. Even though I thought I was completely over him too! If you’re really over it, you don’t need them to validate it. Draw a line under it now.
Atrophy – Thank you so much for sharing your post.
I had a similar experience with an ex AC. It was wonderful, and I actually went farther than you did. We had been broke up for 4 yrs, when he looked me up when he was in town. I had been grieving a break up from 6 months previous from another guy. It was weird I talked with this ex about it, we had sex, spent the night together. The next morning he said “Let’s run off and get married”. There had been a time that I would have loved to said what I did to hurt him, but this time I didn’t want to hurt him, just be honest – I said “Don’t you get it S, we’re over. I wish you well.” And I walked away with my head up, self esteem intact.
I had forgiven him, didn’t love him, didn’t hate him – just neutral!! It was a wonderful feeling. And it will happen again regarding the last AC- thank God for that – neutral!!
Learner, first and only clue you needed/need: he’s married. Be done with HIS analyzing under the guise of “for future relationships”. For future relationships, YOU need boundaries, healthy self-esteem, to know who YOU are and what YOU want. Its time to play offensively instead of defensively and be the one to carry the ball. Re-read “How much time are you really spending thinking about you.” If you’re like me, initially thinking about “me” went against my nature (as I was told I was selfish/not to be selfish) when I was little, but it isn’t selfish, its healing, proactive, empowering, and freeing because you will see that the ONLY person you are responsible for/can change is you. The weight of the world, or at least the dead weight of a man, is lifted from your shoulders.
Very beautifully written and articulated, Natalie. This really puts forgiveness into perspective. It’s taken me most of my life to forgive my mom. When memories and flashes of pain sneak in occasionally, I realize my commitment to forgive and continue to forgive is an ongoing process. So grateful for you and your website.
So I’m not a sports person, lol, but Learner, when you read Natalie’s post, think,”is this me? Have I done this?” Or look up info on ACOA and apply as to why this would cause you to be attracted to EUs? There is so much to learn about YOU that any further research on these guys is a waste of time. I know the urge, I do, its just a distraction from the real issue. You are SO WORTH THE EFFORT!
lo J
I read the article, and yes, I *am* guilty of thinking about him more than about me. It’s pretty unconscious I think, or habit – something I have done for years now – think about the exMM when I don’t *have* to think about something else, like work. I will apparently have to make a conscious effort to change the ratio of exMM-to-me brain activity time. He is out of my love life now, so it is not productive to spend time on him. Such a simple concept yet something that I wasn’t putting into place.
I have started therapy, but I will have to check out the ACOA website, too. I haven’t thought to do that, and I have never been to an Alanon meeting either so that’s something I could do instead of thinking about this non-relevant person. Thank you 🙂
Nat, this is so on point with me and it seems that the universe it telling me to wake the F up! I did not go to my college roommate’s wedding las Saturday and I’ve been feeling horrible for it. To be honest I didn’t want to go because of how she and I have distanced oursleves for her not being there for me when I needed her the most. I also didn’t go because I have class on Saturdays and my professor said not a good idea to miss class in grad school ever unless it’s truly important. But then why do I feel so hurt and even more when we used to be so close and I wasn’t even considered in her bridal party and saw a girl that we went to school with that only came into her life a few years ago? Anyway…this is telling me to stop blaming me or the demise of our friendship. She had as much fault and responsibility in it as me. Time to wake the F up and continue moving on without looking back. I wish her the best, but it’s time to wish myself the best as well! Thanks Nat for reminding me that I AM WORTH IT! 😀
This is a great reminder to shrug off the blame someone’s heaped on us to avoid facing their own issues with fear and unavailability. What an unfair burden to carry for someone else. It’s hard to sift through that when the situation is recent and emotional, but distance helps put it in focus. I needed the reminder, I’m doing well, but have had a slow drift off course the past few days. Thx 🙂
Great posting Nat!! It’s 4:14am and I have been reading this post and all the other comments on this posting down to the very last comment for the past wee hours..2 months NC today!! Who was that unavailable ex assclown? Oh I can’t even REMEMBER!!! On to NC month 3…..
Hi Awakened,
I loved what you said about not “remembering” who that AC was, LOL, great!
It was a surprise to me how quickly the truly awful, sick, empty feelings of beginning NC went away. Likely a testament to the pain that came before. Yet I still sometimes feel a twinge of grieving. And besides coming to BR for a dose of reality, I remember this phrase I heard somewhere:
“What we resist, persists”
So, instead of getting upset with myself for thinking of him or feeling something and trying to stuff it away, I calmly and with compassion for myself, acknowledge it as another step toward being healed and put it aside mentally (visually in my head I make it smaller and dark and move it off the desktop of my mind). And then quickly find something to do or someone to talk to and soon I’m feeling fine again. Congratulations on 2 months NC!!
Ahhh… but there is nothing worse than that sick gut feeling of being “with” someone who you know isn’t treating you well. The worst.
Loj:
“Ahhh… but there is nothing worse than that sick gut feeling of being “with” someone who you know isn’t treating you well. The worst.”
Yep. It’s absolutely the worst; you know in your gut that you shouldn’t be there; that you deserve better; that you’re actually ill-treating yourself by staying with it; and I seemed to have an superhuman unlimited tolerance for living with that sick gut feeling with the now ex relationshit. Sheesh. Never again.
I’m currently struggling at my workplace, wondering whether I’m oversensitive or whether something is really off, especially after one “one false move” incident…
That toxic deputy team leader I’ve mentioned is currently away, but I’m having a hard time with others too. When I rejoined our team after several years abroad, they treated me like a doormat, even if I’m one of the most experienced (and probably also one of the most knowledgeable) team members. I don’t brag about that and try not to act “bossy”. When they started treating me like a doormat, I even tried to act like one in order to be a “good girl”, but it felt horrible after a while.
For a start, they didn’t give me a proper office, but awarded me only the “junior’s” desk. I had started out there many years ago, then moved on into a proper office and was so happy about it, because that other desk was really not a comfortable place to work at. Anyway, after my stay abroad, I had to work from there again because my (new) team leader had awarded the one available office to another coworker my age (let’s call her Eve), who was way less experienced than I, but who had been with the team while I was abroad.
Maybe I should mention that the new team leader had held the same position abroad I held later on and knew me for years. Usually everyone who’s held that position abroad was made team leader afterwards, but my problem was that I opted out a few years before I was supposed to. Firstly, I had to perform shady work there (my predecessors had done the same but apparently didn’t mind), secondly, my personal situation was completely unbearable. I had to live and work in a very isolated place which was suited only for families, while I was single. My predecessors were all guys with housewives.
Well, okay, after my return I told my team leader that I wasn’t happy with the desk but that I respected his decision. But when another coworker left the company, I grabbed his office pretty quickly. Apparently too quickly, because Eve complained with my team leader that I was being “disrespectful” by moving in so quickly into that other office.
My team leader told me that maybe I had a “lack of social skills” while Eve’s social skills where “so perfect”. He also told me my work was great and that our team’s performance had really improved since my return (which I had noticed too – quite frankly, the team hadn’t performed very well the years before). But the part about the “social skills” really stuck, and I’m still second-guessing myself.
Now Eve with the “perfect” social skills is constantly bitching at me in meetings. Whenever I say something intelligent, she treats me as if I’ve murdered someone. As if I have absolutely no right to “shine” because the she’s the only person on the team who’s allowed to do that. And I feel guilty, wondering what I have done to make her behave that way.
By now, I’ve gotten so much used to crappy, arbitrary treatment from several of my coworkers that I am extremely grateful whenever someone doesn’t bitch at me, says “thank you” for something I do or respects my opinion. I’m not sure whether this is normal?
ellyb-
first – huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuug.
now, allow me to clarify this for you:
– the team leader? kind of a jerk who plays favorites and sets up bullying environments
– “perfect” eve? a total bitch. “disrespectful” is probably her manipulative code word for “hey! i wanted it but ellyb got it first! how dare she!”
– you? my sweet darling love, you are an auto-self-invalidator – “And I feel guilty, wondering what I have done to make her behave that way.” – O.O!!! no!!! you take blame, and everyone you work with is more than happy to keep you in this role.
ellyb, no. you do not make others do what they do. they are their awful selves all on their own.
what you do do, however, is choose to work with these people (hoping to win their approval – which you will never get), blame yourself for everything, and take criticism too hard. what do you care if your social skills need work (so, work on them – its just a tweak) when your work performance is great? some people (probably eve) would say “my work performance is stellar, so i can act however i want! gimme that office!”
it is unfortunate that those who don’t have a strong sense of confidence get bullied and those who do get to act like assholes.
please work on your self-esteem, break your habit to take responsibility for the weather and others’ behavior, and consider working somewhere else. you need nicer people to work with and an organization that isn’t so shady. …on top of everything else, they just sound like no friggin’ fun.
cc – Thank you!! No fun, yes, that’s what it is. I’m currently trying to deal with Eve by being very short-spoken whenever she’s being rude, being all fake-friendly when she is being fake-friendly (especially when others are listening), and occasionally making a sharp remark when she’s going OTT in meetings. I’ve started dealing the same way with my toxic deputy team leader. Maybe that’s the healthy way of dealing with such people, but I’m not enjoying myself. It’s draining.
It didn’t even occur to me that Eve wanted my new office, but the only other coworker with whom I’ve ever talked about this suspected the same. After all, Eve HAD a decent office even back then, while I had only the “junior’s” desk! But it’s true, my new office is slightly better than hers. Well, I’m glad I got this one.
Who cares about social skills if I’m doing great work (for which I’m successfully interacting with LOTS of people outside the company, way more than Eve btw – so much about “lack of social skills”)? Well, that has occured to me too. On the other hand – would I WANT to work with people who accuse me of “having no social skills”? I start doubting this. It doesn’t feel good at all.
The problem is that this company is one of the best in my field (highest reputation – almost mythical). Furthermore, there aren’t many jobs in my field, and it’s very competitive.
I’ve been with one of our major competitors as a trainee. Unfortunately, I got bullied so badly by my boss over there and all my fellow trainees that I was very relieved when I landed the job with my current employer years ago. That boss over there was showing all traits of NPD (as I’ve now realized), and I very quickly saw through some of his ruses (probably because I was familiar with them thanks to momster). He was playing and belittling us and deliberately inflicting insecurities. When I started to (gently) oppose him, he made me pay DEARLY together with the rest of the group.
So I won’t go back to that company. That leaves few other options. I’m afraid I’d have to “trade down” when leaving this employer (at least in reputation, probably not in salary). I’m even more afraid that I might end up working below my potential, which I hate. I’m afraid of ending up in some kind of “downward spiral”. What if the new workplace turns out toxic too, and then I might have to “trade down” even further?
On the other hand, I’m getting really miserable WHERE I AM. Who am I kidding? Maybe changing fields (a little, not totally) might be an option. Of course, that would mean I had to start out as a newbie and couldn’t use all my experience (only parts of it). I don’t like that idea because I don’t want to give up my power (what power?).
On the other hand, it might be a challenge, and I might be able to work my way up. Over here, it looks like a dead end. I think I do deserve a promotion, but they hadn’t given me what I deserved in the past, so why would they change their ways in the future?
Btw, when I’ve started opposing Eve, for example by being short-spoken when she was being bitchy instead of getting all defensive and sucking up to her, it hurt TERRIBLY. One day after work I was in mortal fear. Seriously!
I thought: Well, hadn’t momster always taught me I’d die if I ever oppose a woman with cold eyes like hers? Now I’ve done it AGAIN, and this time I’m not going to get away. I’ll DIE because I haven’t sucked up to “gorgeous” Eve!
That was really how I felt. It was horrible. I was in physical pain.
And it’s true. Whenever momster was displeased with me (and that happened more or less daily), she treatened to smash my head with a hammer. She pretended it was a joke and just part of her “witty and creative parenting”(OUTRAGEOUS!!!!). Both my parents found it funy. But for 6-year-old me it was NOT FUNNY.
That’s why I’m in such pain now. Eve isn’t a real threat to my life, but as a little child, I felt like I was in mortal danger because of my parents’ cruelty. And that was incredibly painful.
I haven’t done anything wrong by interacting with Eve the way I did. That hasn’t caused my pain. The pain comes from a horrible old scar, a very serious old emotional injury from my childhood, and that’s what’s hurting so much now.
Anyway, I don’t want to take any anti-anxiety drugs. A therapist had urged me to take some last year, but I refused. I think I need to develop compassion for little Elly’s feelings. I don’t want to drown them in drugs, no matter how hurtful they are. My feelings won’t kill me. And after suffering through that recent wave of pain, I already feel somewhat stronger.
I’m not sure you would be drowning them in drugs. Some antidepressant medications help with anxiety (which I didn’t even know I had until I described it to a doc) and they are just prescribed short term to assist during therapy, to get you over that hump, if you will. I can tell you, when I was put on the right medication, my whole world and perspective was opened up for me. Really. Just an option. You may want to research how they work.
EllyB
I had problems with co-workers at work too. Now we get on – okay. We aren’t buddies but frankly I don’t want to be their friend. We mainly leave each other alone but can work together when we need to. And occasionally share a laugh.
They haven’t changed – I have. I stopped caring as much.
You are doing a good job. That’s all that counts. Everyone has problems at work. Everyone. Even the toppest top boss has people who winds them up and talks down to them. Let it roll off you. I am only concerned about what someone bothers to put in writing and put in front of me in a performance review or disciplinary meeting. Everything else is fluff. Keep telling yourself. I. Don’t. Care. (about the politics, not the job). When you care less, it will show and people will stop winding you up and gossiping about you because they’re not getting any reaction. And if they do – who cares, really?
I used to switch jobs every few years because of social problems. This time I decided to ride it out and I’m glad I did. I feel good that I didn’t let them make an important decision for me, or force me out.
As for meds, I took them for less than six months just to stop the anxiety. I came off them very easily. It’s not the case that you’ll be stuck on them. If you believe they are just something to take to get you through a difficult period, then that’s all it needs to be.
yeah, ellyb, grace has a great point-
its along the paper tiger lines – these people do not have say over whether you live or die. but sometimes it feels they do. momster did, but they don’t. i know you see that, but, in the moment, at work, when the pressure starts to rise for you, you’re not SEEing it.
abusive people trigger us, our reactions. when we grow up like we did, its as if a switch gets installed inside of us that people resembling our abusers can throw, putting us into abject panic….unless we start manning that switch, healing it, guarding it. its YOUR switch. not theirs. they do not have the right to throw it. nobody does. so don’t give them the authority over you that momster had.
solving this is really hard, but you’re already doing it. be aware of your switch. and grace is right – you do not have to care about the office bullshit. they don’t have say over you – YOU do.
Thanks Grace, cc, Lo J!
About the anti.anxiety drugs: I think I have a particular problem there… A therapist I’m not seeing anymore urged me to take anti-anxiety drugs as soon as I tried to tell her about the sexual abuse I suffered. It was the first time I EVER broke the silence about this, but she barely responded to that. Instead, she immediately said I was WAY TOO ANXIOUS and that I had to see a psychatrist and get some drugs.
I now consider her reaction quite odd. I wasn’t suicidal or anything. There was no immediate danger for me. After all, I had lived with those anxieties for decades, and now for the first time I was brave enough to talk about the abuse. OF COURSE I was anxious!
Why was it now so urgent to get me on drugs? More urgent than to be compassionate with me? I don’t understand it.
I never mentioned the sexual stuff to her anymore. I was too scared of her reaction. I’ve stayed with that counselor for a few more months, but it became something of a power struggle: I tried to prove to her I could “make” it without drugs, she tried to get me on drugs. I hoped she would “approve” of me without the drugs and give me the compassion I wanted, but she didn’t.
I hated it. I wanted compassion. I wanted somebody who listened. I wanted somebody who made me feel okay for breaking the silence about my parent’s sexual atrocities. But I think she wasn’t that person.
Unfortunately, since that incident with my therapist, my anxieties have become my new stick to beat myself with. I keep wondering: Maybe my parents abused me simply because I was too anxious? Maybe I deserved no better because of my anxieties? And maybe I deserve no compassion and empathy even now because I’m still too anxious?
It’s wicked. My team leader’s boss is quite an ass sometimes too. Once I complained about that to a coworker, and she said: “Well, I think he attacks you so often because he loves attacking people who are anxious”.
That made me even more self-conscious. On the one hand, I was angry at my coworker, because in essence she blamed me and not him for his crappy behavior. On the other hand I started second-guessing myself (again!).
But I think she is WRONG. He attacks me (and others) because he is a creep (well, sort of) and not because we are anxious. In fact, he attacks almost everyone from time to time, no matter whether they are anxious or not. We just don’t all REACT the same way.
I’ve started reacting differently too. In the past, whenever he tried to publicly blame me for my coworkers’ mistakes he totally threw me out of balance. Im some meetings, he even blamed me for my team leaders’ mistakes, even if I hadn’t been involved in that particular project at all. I’m pretty sure he always KNEW what he was doing.
Now I just reply: “I have absolutely no idea what happened there, but I’m going to check back with my coworkers”. I don’t even care about my “tone” anymore. If I sound a bit pissed, or if my reply comes out a bit sharp, who cares? After all, I have good reason to be pissed.
He can’t send me a written reprimand just for me “tone”, can he? In the past I thought my “tone” was the most important thing ever. I thought I always had to talk in a “good girl’s voice” NO MATTER what happened.
Mind you, all this hasn’t stopped his attacks. One day he’s attacking me, the next day he’s attacking others. That’s just how he “ticks”. I doubt he’ll ever change his ways. It’s just doesn’t matter to me all that much anymore.
I don’t think I am to blame for his behavior AT ALL. I’m not responsible for this. Not even if I were anxious. Seriously.
ellyb-
i’ll be honest, i’m fighting off tears reading your reply. i’m so sorry, you poor thing, yes, you received a horrible, deep, traumatic wound. and yes, you’re in physical and psychological pain now because of it, because your work environment is triggering it.
but do you see how BRAVE you are? you are STANDING UP to people! you feel in mortal danger yet you are standing up for yourself! that. is. AMAZING. do you see? most people would crawl into a permanent hole rather than face down the beast. you congratulate big elly and little elly. with no good example, actually, with a horrifying history, you are nonetheless taking care of both of them.
and…ok, i’m not a qualified professional, and i don’t mean to freak you out. but google PTSD. one doesn’t have to be a veteran or a victim of sexual abuse to have it. maybe i’m wrong, but i’m guessing you have a mild form of it. i know because i do too. which means you must care for yourself all the more.
you can heal, you are healing. it sounds like your whole industry is rife with abusive egomaniacs. you don’t have to solve everything all at once, be gentle with you and take it one step at a time.
and…this may not help…i have taken to just calling people on their shit. it is a HIGH risk strategy, but when i have that fight/flight reaction you do, when i feel i’m being killed, i breeeeeeeeeeeathe, and think of other options that i have at my disposal. one of these is just saying, GENTLY, “eve, please don’t be rude to me. there’s just really no reason for it. let’s just figure out a way to solve the problem we’re working on.”
one of the problems we get from growing up in traumatic, invalidating environments is that we feel we are robbed of all our options, our tools. ellyb, you have more options and tools than you know.
eve may be a bitch, and she may have some workplace power over you, but she is really a paper tiger. don’t give her more power than she actually has. you’re stronger than you think. believe in yourself. and keep breathing.
It seems that many posters on BR have had a parent who abuses/d alcohol, as I have. In the first therapy session I went to, the counsellor suggested I got involved with the exMM as I was trying to resolve issues with my relationship with my alcohol-abusing father. (not in a healthy way!). She suggested I read the book “Perfect Daughters: adult daughters of alcoholics” by Robert Ackerman, so I have started reading it. In one of the first chapters, he speaks of what we “learn” as children of alcoholics and some of them are very relevant to Natalie’s post:
“* If I can control everything, I can keep my family from becoming upset
* If I please everyone, everyone will be happy
*Whatever happens is my fault, and I am to blame when trouble occurs
*People who love you the most are those who cause you the most pain
*If I do not get too close emotionally, you cannot hurt me…
*Take care of others first…
*I can deny anything
*I am not a good person
*I am responsible for the success of a relationship”
Can anyone relate?
i relate.
my family wasn’t alcoholic per se, but there are enough similarities (we lived in the Denial Province of Abuseland) that it fits perfectly.
Absolutely. No alcohol in my family, but a mother who is ACOA and a father who was workaholic. In other words, both EU. And both were/are very co-dependent. Both have diagnosed each other with personality disorders. LOL! Who the hell knows but childhood was not pretty.
cc
Perhaps there are many different family dynamics that can facilitate our believing these dangerous lies and patterns. You seem well on the road to recovery based on your posts/advice on BR. You are an inspiration that we *can* get past the unhealthy patterns bestowed by our families. Thank you for all you share on here. xo
aw, learner-
thanks so much, that’s kind. wow … totally welling up. thanks, honey.
xox
Learner, thanks for posting this. Everything on this list applies to me. My parents were not alcoholics, but my mother had mental problems, and my father insisted that I help him in trying to keep her calm and happy. I have carried these patterns of behavior into all my relationships — friends, romance, work. I’m always trying to be perfect and undemanding, soothe, and entertain everyone, blame myself for other people’s bad behavior, take care of everyone but myself. I’m learning, now, in my fifties, that not only do I not have to save everyone — I can’t. Other people are going to do, and think as they choose.
Tanya Z
Isn’t it wonderful how much we can still learn well past our 40th birthdays? Hurray for you for refusing to try to save everyone. I must follow suit. Enough is enough!
@Hittheresetbutton it really can become a MENTAL disturbance in our minds if we keep rehearsing well if only I had done X,Y,Z. Just think everytime we allow them to enter our thoughts we slow down the healing process and we are further delaying something better (the right mate) to enter our lives. Life is harder nowadays. Take the economy for example. If you are out searching for a job your chances are very low. You have about 100 x people applying for that one Job. It’s in high demand. The same thing goes for a good reliable MAN. He don’t even have to be the best dam looking just be Reliable.
Grace,
I did notice that he hadn’t done the work and was still struggling with moving forward. NC itself was closure because it allowed me to take control of my life and not depend on him for any answers. It’s true that we can never put anything past these guys and he may very well try his luck again.
I have similar issues as Learner. My father was an alcoholic and abusive during my younger years. He’s been sober for 15 but we just don’t get along. I can relate to 1) People who love you most cause you the most pain and 2) Take care of others first – read doormat. (My Mom’s viewpoint).
I have tried therapy but they just keep asking you questions. I feel like I need my Dad in the room with me for us to both work through our issues, but he does not care and my Mom pretends that he was never abusive!!! That has been the most damaging personally and they are still together.
This has directly caused me to not walk away from the EUM in the past b/c of this attitude of goddamnit I’m gonna make this work! UGH, it’s exhausting just thinking about it.
Atrophy
Yes, it is difficult when one parent turns a blind eye (or adds) to the damage caused by the other. Almost like rubbing salt in the wound. You are doubly abandoned so no wonder it leads to being somewhat EU.
Even though my dad went for some individual therapy, and wrote me a letter of apology, the wounds are still there for me. Although it was validating in a way, it felt like he did it to get rid of some of his own guilt, but our relationship is still not ideal. I have concluded that I need to be “the parents I always wanted” for myself, as suggested by someone on BR.
I am so glad you feel you no longer have an emotional attachment to your exEUM. AND that you were able to flush the next one early. It’s very helpful to hear successes like that 🙂
We have to view our parents kind of like these EU’s … sometimes they won’t give us that validation that we see need or want. Its like we have to have them tell us, “Yes, this really happened. And yes it was really bad. And yes, it was really wrong.” When I didn’t get this, and my parents gave me the run around, with the blame (“it was your Mom’s fault”), or the minimizing (“it wasn’t that bad”), and the shame (“you were always so sensitive”), I got stuck. It was a vicious circle that I kept repeating and playing out in my relationships. I actually remember a breakthrough moment with my therapist when I told her about my being molested by a kid in my neighborhood. My parents shamed, minimized, blamed, dismissed, then FORGOT (my dad did … I was 4 years old. And he forgot about it. Actually took me around this teenager and his father nonchalantly and no one even figured out why I had a physical reaction being around him???) Anyhow, I mentioned this to my therapist, this molestation, and how it had hurt that my parents had dismissed it, and said, “is that a big deal?” And she said, “Its a VERY big deal!” And I cried. and cried. and cried. Because I had been validated. Then and there, I knew that my parents did not have the capability to validate me. They were messed up. Their validator barometers were off. LOL!! And I had to trust my own feelings.
Waiting around on our parents or these guys or anybody else to validate us is going to keep us stuck and right there with them. Trust your feelings, validate yourself, move forward.
lo j
: (((( So sad. It is a big deal. If you’ve ever watched the show Intervention, on several occasions when they go back to the root of the addictive behaviors, there was a trauma like molestation that was minimized by parents. It’s like the addict is the self-appointed person who carries the sickness of the whole family. Often, I’ve noticed, they are the most artistic or sensitive child among siblings.
Not that we’re addicts, but I’ve found I really identify with addicts, with anorexics, with people who act out by punishing themselves.
Terrible (non-sexual) things happened in my family, and the coping mechanism was to be very rational and adult about it, almost like we, the other family members were a therapy team, convening on tactics. This was bizarre because my brother and I were children and the situation was dangerous.
In my twenties, when i was in therapy, I pressed my mother for validation, but she is a live-in-the-present type and felt I was harping on long-ago drama. She would just sigh and change the subject.
I am absolutely positive that my confusion over what is dangerous to me, and my inability to believe I have the power to protect myself (rather than developing tactics) stems from this family dynamic.
When I tell a new therapist about various events, invariably their eyebrows rise up their forehead even though they attempt the therapy-poker face. Then I somehow become my mother. Oh, it was a long time ago, I hardly remember it, I say. Meanwhile my life is screaming otherwise.
The above conversation has been incredibly helpful to me thank you all for sharing.
I was molested by a step family member and the rest of the family became aware of it. The offender was excused and nothing was said to me at all. The family continued to interact with him as though he’d done nothing wrong. I felt like I had caused the problem and it was all my fault because it wouldn’t have happened had I not become a member of the family. My mum did nothing and it hurt so much when she would find the offender funny and tease him etc. after what he had done to me her daughter.
Recently on facebook a family member put up a post about how they support the hanging of child molestors and many other family members clicked on the like button, wow I wanted to type so you’d love to see so and so hanging would you because that is exactly what he is !!!!!
My mum did it all again ignoring me when I was telling her my step dad wouldn’t leave me alone, sleazing over me telling me he was in love with me spying on me wanting me to consent to sex and other such things. My mum is still married to this guy !!! She again did nothing minimized it dismissed it as though he hadn’t done a thing wrong. Again other family members found out and again it was like it was all my fault because I had become a member of the family. I finally found my validation that this was actually real and very damaging through the internet where another lady had experienced a similar situation in her own life.
Loj, you did that again for me by sharing your story thank you.
atr0phy, learner, loj, ixnay, tulipa (and ellyb elsewhere)-
here’s more validation. its all real.
i think i’ve posted this before, but i grew up in a terrifyingly volcanic environment – my father was a tower of rage, was mentally, physically, emotionally abusive to the 5 of us (i’m the youngest), and my mother would just take her mental elevator to the penthouse in her head and look at her fantasy skyline, pretending what was happening wasn’t. i can tell you first hand, if you want to really torture someone, don’t bother hurting them, hurt someone they love.
anyway…my 3rd brother (kid #4) is a good person, but kind of a jerk. picked on me mercilessly when we were kids. eventually, we grew up, i put myself in therapy, was diagnosed with PTSD (for which i blamed myself, labeling myself weak – but its NOT evidence of weakness, it is the psyche’s anaphylactic reaction to trauma). i didn’t want to tell my brother i had PTSD, i figured he’d make fun of me. but i was wrong:
me: well, its going to sound ridiculous, but i’ve been diagnosed with PTSD.
him: PTSD?
me: post traumatic stress disorder
him: ….why is that ridiculous? of course you have PTSD! you grew up in a concentration camp!
VALIDATION! from the guy who can be a merciless jerk!
don’t doubt yourselves, my wounded-and-on-the-road-to-healing darlings. it was all real. and you should have been loved and cherished and protected and your assailants should have been punished and run out of town on a rail. i’m so sorry you weren’t cared for properly. and your feelings about it all are REAL.
i am here to tell you – the road to recovery is paved with validation. so don’t look for it with ACs and EUMs. build loving relationships with girlfriends first (most of my dearest friends, who are also on their own healing paths, are victims of abuse) who help you stay on your own side. find therapists whom you can trust fully. you must stick up for yourselves, even against your own inner critics. and by giving yourselves unconditional love, you will be able to acknowledge your own victimhood to its fullest, heal the wounds, and eventually be able to break out of the victim identity box. it is actually possible to move on. but you’re right to start with the comfort that it is all real first.
it. was. real.
cc
Thank you for that positive perspective on our journeys to health after abuse. I hope it helped your healing to hear your brother validate your experiences. My father has also acknowledged that he hurt me in my childhood, but I think is oblivious to the fact that his behaviour towards me is still hurtful at times. I suppose I should be assertive and call him on it, but in the past when I have tried that, he always manages to twist it so that *I* am the one being disrespectful towards him. I try to choose my battles.
I also experienced “inappropriate touching” from a male babysitter when I was young. I never told my parents as I was ashamed, and even felt that I was somehow “bad” because this had happened to me (early self-blame?). It caused me much shame and stress for the whole of my childhood. Very real feelings, as you said, but I kept them hidden.
I have been doing as you said and building strong relationships with my girlfriends and family. I don’t want to be in the victim identity box any more! I know somewhere underneath all the pain from the past, and the pain from the involvement with the ex-cheating cheater that there is a strong, healthy woman just waiting to shine through. She is there inside each of us! Thanks again for your insight cc, I needed that today. xo
Ladies, I hope you don’t mind but I need to get this all out. Since losing my baby (at 21 weeks pregnant) last January I have almost completely shut myself away. I’ve not been able to work or study and have been unbelievably depressed. I’ve been blaming myself for just about everything. The choice of being in a relationship with a MM in the first place, for getting pregnant, for losing the baby, etc, etc. The MMs reaction to the loss of my baby was unbelievably cruel and unnecessary. He asked me not to mention his name at the baby’s service, he did not send a card or flowers, told me he did not like the name I chose, he actually likened it to a bad character in a children’s book, when I asked him if he wanted to see the baby’s hand and foot prints he said he did not care if he did or didn’t see them, etc, etc. This added to my grief and made it so much worse, but believe it or not I continued to see him for a while! More of the same followed of course, but then I found BR. I finally decided to go NC in June and it has been one of the best decisions of my life. I’ve had the space to start seeing things more clearly and importantly it wasn’t all my fault. He was responsible too, he had choices and he chose to be cruel when I needed some kindness, some understanding and some compassion. I spent some time today pouring out all my anger (on paper), he has just been called all the names under the sun and I didn’t realise I could swear so much! I feel better already. I have learned so much from reading this blog, it has truly kept me going these past months. I’m beginning to see why I was in this destructive relationship in the first place (abandonment issues). I can also now recognise when I slip into fantasy land and can bring myself back to reality. The reality is he is an unemotional, un-empathetic, cruel person who used me for sex and my research. I don’t need him to love my baby. I loved my baby and he will always be with me. With my son in mind I finished my day by updating my resume and filled in some applications for post grad courses. It is time to start slowly rebuilding my life. Thank you Natalie and all the wise ladies who post here, you really have saved me from myself.
Oh sweet Lilly, I just want to give you a huge hug. Your exMM was cruel indeed, and took no accountability for the baby you created together. I think it would be natural to seek some understanding or consolation from the man who got you pregnant, but he couldn’t even acknowledge or share in your grief. He sounds completely EU. I am so sorry you had to go through that. He makes me sooo angry!!! I am glad you wrote out your anger on paper as hopefully that anger will eventually help you to heal. I can think of some pretty juicy swearwords for him too!
It is good, I think, that you refer to your son as “my baby” as opposed to “our baby”. I remember earlier someone suggested that you grieve for the baby separately from recovering from the exMM and I think it’s a good idea. Having lost a baby myself (at 12 weeks, many years ago), I am familiar with the excruciating pain of that loss. Have you considered a grief support group or individual therapy since you feel depressed?
Keep being good to you, keep doing what you have started re: moving on to a better position/post grad/future and keep with NC. It is soul-destroying to realize that you have been used for sex (I am right there with you!) but we are worth the work it will take to heal from it all. Stay strong my NC sister.
oh, lilly-
i’m so sorry about your baby and the whole story. to say the exMM’s treatment of the two of you was abominable is the understatement of the century.
you’re doing exactly what you need to be doing, and i’m so glad you’re healing, feeling better, and coming into your own. rock on. be gentle with you.
big hugs
Learner, cc & Atrophy, thank you so much for your responses. You have prompted me to make an appointment to talk to someone. I really do need some help with the grief and I’m so sorry that you had to endure a similar experience. It’s difficult separating my feelings for the baby with my feelings for him. I find it so sad that he just did not care about the baby at all. During the pregnancy he did show some signs of affection for him or at least I thought they were. Accepting the fact that he was just using me then I suppose I can understand it , but I don’t think I’ll ever understand why he needed to be so cruel. I will just have to let it all go. I will definitely keep going with NC because it is working. Thank you all again and Learner wishing you lots of luck for your meeting next week.
Lilly
So glad you made that appointment. I hope it turns out to be helpful. You certainly have had to deal with a lot!
And thanks for the good wishes re my work sessions coming up. I am feeling stronger every day with NC and support from all here.
Hi Lilly,
Good to hear that you are coping ok and than you are seeking some help. I found talking to a professional incredibly helpful. I was interested in your comment about his cruelty. I’m doing pretty well generally letting go of my experience which was similar to yours in a lot of ways although I didn’t experience the sad loss of a baby that you did. But the thing that has been most difficult was his unneccessary cruelty at the end. But I think that all you can do is understand that it is about them and will have been some sort of defence/ protection of themselves. Nothing to do with you or your worth. You are important and your baby and he can’t take that away.
Polly, I’m very happy to hear that you are doing well. I suppose there does come a time when we have to let go and accept that we may never know why they acted so cruelly. I like your comment that this is about them and not us. Perhaps that’s where I’ve been going wrong assuming that his behaviour reflects something bad within me. I’m trying hard to accept that this is who he was, take responsibility for myself and move on. I’ve made a good start, but I’m looking forward to the day when it doesn’t hurt so much. Emotional abuse is difficult to recover from, but we’re on our way. Thank you for taking the time to reply it meant so much to me.
Lilly,
You’re right–he was cruel because he is a cruel person. It is in him to treat others this way, and it has nothing to do with who you are or anything that you did or didn’t do. I’m certain that he has subjected other people in his life to poor treatment as well.
It’s sinking in for me more and more lately that this simple answer is the truth. We have such a hard time trying to sort it out because we can’t imagine ever being so cruel to another person, but these guys are not like us.
The one false move mentality applies to anyone who’s grown up with an alcoholic parent. My mom was a terrible alcoholic and she blamed me for all her problems. She projected her own deep sense of shame and worthlessness onto me, and she did a pretty fine job of it, too. When you grow up with an alcoholic, nobody ever asks if your needs are being met, or if you are upset, or if you need help with anything. You’re just left to hang. So when you find yourself with an EUM or AC, it’s a perfect fit, because hey, they don’t care either. The only good thing about being with one is that he taught me that I need to change the hard-wiring in my brain once and for all. Getting him to love me was not going to change my mother’s failures as a parent.
And Awakened, what you said about starting to forget the AC… it’s been a year of obsessive thinking for me, and it finally dawned on me, “Why am I dwelling on someone who I no longer know? Who has absolutely no connection to my life, no influence, no impact? Nothing?” I think I might have crossed a bridge, because he suddenly feels very insignificant.
Kerry
Yes, we take the blame, help everyone with their problems at our pwn expense, and then no-one checks in to see how WE are doing! Even people who have no idea we were raised in alcoholic families. What is with that? Do we give off some kind of vibe that we are suckers for punishment? The low self esteem shows even though we are successful in many areas of our lives? I have never understood that. There have been people at work with sick relatives, and I could see they received a lot of support. Even though I have a good network of people at work and we are a pretty cohesive team, when my step sister was ill with a serious condition people weren’t too forthcoming with the care or concern. I just don’t get it!
Not long ago my aunt was sick in the hospital and not expected to recover. I called my EUM crying looking for support and for him to possibly come and see me. He told me he was completely stressed out about work and couldn’t possibly be bothered with my problems nor did he want to take them on. Now I was not only upset about my aunt but also about how I was being treated. How could I still be betting on potential after this? How could I be holding onto hope for the future? I am in day one of NC and I keep feeling so confused. I am sad that he just doesn’t give a shit and probably won’t ever contact me again. I feel silly that I actually do care and that this is hard for me. And I feel the urge to want to tell him I still care. I feel my strength waning and am scared of going back.
Lilian
Please do not contact him. He does not deserve your care. Don’t give him another chance to reject you. You said yourself he doesn’t give a shit anyway. Turn your care towards you, not him. Take back your power. The longer I stay NC, the more I believe it – NC works! Hugs xo
Learner,
I think it’s because, without realizing it, we are giving off the “I don’t need anybody” vibe. On the inside, we are dying to be recognized, cherished, appreciated, loved, cared for. But outwardly, we must be sending signals that we are self-sufficient units. I know that it’s hard for me to ask for help, or to express my needs. I was always proud of being and independent problem-solver for everybody else. But I’m learning to open myself up to needing others; to be vulnerable. I think with our alcoholic parent backgrounds, being vulnerable was never an option for us.
Kerry
This rang true for me to the point it brought me to tears. And I thought I was all cried out for the year after crying about my relationshit. Wow. This has hit a nerve for me. Giving off signs we are self-sufficient when we long to be cared for. YES! Not having the choice to feel/be vulnerable in our childhoods. YES! Adding to my “to-do list”: learning to be vulnerable. Oy!
Lo J — I was molested by a neighbourhood kid when I was about 6, he was 13. I cried and ran home, told my folks, they ignored it after my Mom cleaned my scrapes. They’ve always had this attitude of let’s brush everything bad under the rug and forget about it. When I was 17 , I confronted my Mom about it and she dismissed it again. It happened to me but apparently it was shameful for her.
My mother has always had VERY negative views of sex and very low self-esteem being abused herself (alcoholic father + husband). She projected a lot of this on me and is a depressed person at her core. She uses money to buy affection, she doesn’t communicate, growing up I was her “partner/parent”. It seems all these things come together in a dysfunctional package but I have let go of the anger surrounding these years ago.
Lilly — How can you even blame yourself over this?!! I had a miscarriage after 11 weeks and it takes time to grieve the loss. Hang in there with NC, there is no going back to an exMM who has been so heartless. Much love.
Kerry — Running helped me keep my mind off the exEUM, I would only allow myself to think about him 10 mins a day after the first few months of NC and after a while I went through an entire day without thinking of him. It is possible!!!
Have been reading posts here that came in overnight and I read a lot from people who had a very difficult childhood with parents who were addicts, abusive and ignored their kids — I just wanted to send you ALL a very big, warm hug. I cant even start to imagine how tough that must have been. My heart goes out to all of you xx
Ixnay … I always related well to alcoholics and similar. My parents sucking wind, saying, “What is wrong with her???” Lol! And… my therapist didn’t have a poker face. That helped a lot. 🙂 Quit being so tough. You are never wrong for your feelings or experiences.
Atrophy … so sorry. They were dismissive on the pretense of “he’s just a kid.” My “kid” molester grew up to be an adult registered sex offender. And you’re right, it was about them. (Your Moms shame. My parents too.) They were dealing with their own demons. They couldn’t provide what we needed, they didn’t have it to give.
Atrophy,
I think we had the same mother. It was “shameful for her”? Your mother sounds like a narcissist, same as mine. If I’d been molested she’d have had the same reaction. If I ever got lost in a store, she’d yell at me because I’d upset her. It didn’t dawn on her that I might have been terrified. Good for you for overcoming the anger, because that’s the toughest part. Sometimes I resent that I didn’t get the parenting and the self-esteem tools that would have me immune to the EUMs and ACs. I’ve met other women from healthy families who easily tell such men to get lost. I envy their healthy sense of self. It’s a lot harder when you have to self-parent and figure it out in your adult years, but we’re getting there. Day by day, dammit.
No more unhealthy rebounds. This time I’m figuring my sh** out.
P.S. Thanks for the running tip. I may as well get into wicked shape while I fight thoughts of the AC.
My narcissistic momster was pissed whenever I caught a cold. How dared I… It was all my fault, I had been careless, she KNEW it exactly, and now “poor” momster was going through all that trouble of having a sick child!
I was so scared of her that I ALWAYS, ALWAYS wore a cap in winter, always put on my hood when it was raining, never EVER forgot my jacket and so on. No other kid did that, and they all bullied me like crazy for my “ridiculous” behavior.
And it didn’t help. I got sick over and over again ANYWAY, and momster always “knew” I had been careless, no matter how much I argued with her. Whenever my nose was running, her hatred was incredible. It was hell, hell, hell.
I’m still apologizing to everybody (including my coworkers) whenever I get sick. Until recently, it never occured to me that maybe I deserve sympathy when I’m sick, not hatred and blame.
Arghhhhhh….
You’re welcome.
Really good post. I’ve had the “one false move” mentality all or most of my life.
1. I was too young to remember if I blamed myself for my parents’ divorce, but I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if I did. (I was only 2 or 3. Damn shame to do that to myself.)
2. I sometimes blamed myself for my mother & ex-stepfather’s divorce. I figured that if I mediated between them or made them laugh or got good grades in school or (insert anything here), they’d stay together. (This was from age 10 until my teens. Damn shame to do that to myself.)
3. My maternal grandmother died over 17 years ago. I blamed myself because I cut school one day for the 1st time ever (I was the good kid), asked a higher power to “PLEASE forgive me for cutting school JUST THIS ONE TIME; I’ll never do it again. Just don’t let Grandma die (she was quite ill).”, and was convinced that a higher power punished me by making her die exactly 2 weeks later. It took me 15 years, on the 15th anniversary of her death, to release that heavy burden. It was painful & induced a bad headache that day, but it was so cathartic. I’m agnostic, but I’m sure that if she could hear me, it’d tear her apart to know that I blamed myself.
4. I definitely did this with friendships and romantic relationships sometimes, even in recent years. I’ve been able to deal with it much quicker now, though.
The “one false move” mentality is such a heavy burden to carry. I think that it’s natural to feel that way every once in a while, but it’s important to realize the truth sooner rather than later and, like Natalie said, “what they should be doing is a mix of being realistic and looking beyond their own perspective as well as where appropriate, taking responsibility for their own actions.”
Narcissistic parents, who’ve resigned to go through the motions until they die. As a teen my mother had said, you can’t go out b/c I don’t want your father to force himself on me.
I used to get hit/yelled at anytime I did anything ‘wrong’, yep get a cold, speak up, talk to the opposite sex. I was so introverted and shy, I saw abuse in my friends’ homes too (thought it was the norm). Mother would say ‘disappear’ and then I had to pretend I didn’t exist.
My sister has been eating her feelings and her appearance is a source of shame for them. It makes me so angry, she’s 17 and I’m 27.
EllyB – I still catch myself saying “I feel so stupid!” when I get sick. Like intelligence has anything to do with it! Lol! I stop the thought and move on.
readers of BR who are daughters of narcissistic mothers-
i so seriously want to take care of all of you in one big chicked soup-ed love fest. ignored abuses, criticized illnesses, fear, blame, ridicule …. its so awful. i don’t know why i feel your pain so fellingly, one would think it would be worse if you all had narcissistic fathers like i did, but my heart goes out to you especially. maybe that’s my mothering florence nightingale complex…
anyway, here’s what i can do, repeat my past reference to the book i read on the subject. please get it and read it. some of the exercises will scare the holy bejebus out of you because they go so deep – you’ll know when you get to that section, and if you have to stop and put the book in the freezer or temporarily delete it off your ipad, its ok, its perfectly understandable.
anyway, here it is. i seriously recommend it for every one of you:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough?
Healing the Daughers of Narcissistic Mothers
Karyl McBride, PhD
…oh, wait, that’s amazon US and many of you are UK, etc. well, you get the idea.
I also recommend the following blog by a narcissistic mother’s daughter: http://narcissists-suck.blogspot.de/
She’s not only very insightful, but also ANGRY. I think that’s very helpful especially if you’re struggling with acknowledging your own anger. For me it was the first real eye-opener regarding momster’s true nature.
Yep, I have the book and it shocked me at how accurate it is about my experience. (I’ve mentioned my mother on here a few times.) I still haven’t finished it; I wasn’t “ready” yet but now I think that I am. This definitely contributes to the “one false move” mentality & does LOTS of damage, some irreparable.
Thank you Natalie! I needed this at exactly this moment…
Been a while since I posted – (formerly Aimee).
This post hit home!! As so many of Nat’s posts do. I needed this one bad!! Been doing good, but every so often my low self-esteem rears it’s ugly little head! Uggghhhh!
My wake up was when the AC, on our date night, had three women show up in his backyard he planned on partying with, with his buddies. I got angry, left and called and made mean comments. Then I blamed myself for him screwing one of them that night (cause I got mad – huh??), although he denied it for 3 yrs until last summer when he called and told me “He loved, missed me, and effed up” and finally fessed up.
It took me a while to get it – and like I told him last year when I told him there was no going back, that I realized it didn’t matter what I did or did not do that night – he was still going to screw her. That was his plan, that is who he is, and sure that is who he still is.
I learnd that crapola, that everything is my “fault” growing up in my lovely family. Which is BS, but still struggle with it. See – if it’s all my fault – THEN I CAN FIX IT!! Than I will live happily ever after in my fantasy land. Sounds as if I am stuck in the narcissitic phase of development??!!
Thanks for the wonderful posts Nat and everyone elses comments!! They help me get my head screwed on right when I need it!!
AHM-
brilliant. yes, if its our fault, we can fix it and make things perfect. except its not our fault, we only have control over ourselves, and nothing is perfect.
thank you for that insight – it is VERY difficult for us to understand that we can only control ourselves – this feels lonely because we aren’t good at it and we haven’t gotten good results from it, so we’ve empirically learned that, in some sense, we are ineffectual. so we try harder to control others.
but we should be trying harder to both release ourselves (not think of it as “control”) and make better choices for ourselves, both in what we accept and in how we behave. we need to learn to be more effectual in these ways. we’ll stop chasing after what is bad for us and be able to lead happier lives.
so, if you were stuck, you’re not anymore. you had this FLASH. well done, you. thank you again.
EllyB — again, you are looking for external sources for your peace, validation, compassion. (Your therapist.) You are trying to control the world by saying, “Treat me how I need to me treated, treat me in a way that I always feel good and I have less anxiety, fear, hurt, blah blah blah” (paraphrasing of course) and I come from compassion and care cause I get you, I do. But here’s the deal as I beat this dead donkey, you have control of only you and only you. When we expect others to right the wrongs of our world, we are being just like our parents. It was almost like a surrender for me. I had to say, This ain’t working. My thought processes are out of whack. And yes, I saw how my parents were screwed up, but I saw I was. Not to beat myself up or to feel worse about myself but to find the areas I, ME, that needed to change. I know you have made progress, I am not being mean, just not sure you get it?
Lo J: You’re right, but I think it’s also okay to be angry at my therapist. She clearly acted as if I had no right to question her authority, as if I was in no position to object to anything she wanted because I was so “messed up”.
I think a therapist shouldn’t act that way. I’ve read somewhere that in a successfull trauma therapy, you are going to get angry at your therapist at some point (she was supposed to be an expert in treating childhood trauma). You learn to act as if your therapist was your abusive parent, and you get angry. And that’s okay. A good therapist should be able to stand that.
I always wondered why we never got to that point. Now I know. She made it clear from the outset that it wasn’t okay for me to get angry with her. It was inacceptable. She was the boss and I had to act accordingly.
And no, I don’t believe I “became like my parents” by expecting a therapist to treat me with respect and compassion. She was a therapist, not a vulnerable little child. Sorry, but that’s a huge difference. After all, I was paying her. A lot of money. Out of my own pocket, because my health insurance didn’t cover counselling back then.
I should have opted out earlier, that’s the only mistake I made. Unfortunately, I was so vulnerable back then that I didn’t. Isn’t that the time when we need a therapist the most? I think if they exploit those vulnerabilities, that’s pretty wicked.
No, I’m not after revenge or anything. But I’ve just realized how she has increased the amount of “baggage” I’m hauling around instead of helping me get rid of it.
Sorry, me again. Lo J – no, I cannot force anybody to treat me the way I want. That’s true. However, if you’re dealing with horrible abuse memories, you sometimes need somebody who is compassionate with you, who gives you some of the “mirroring” you didn’t get as a child. That’s not “sense of entitlement”, it’s human. That’s what trauma therapists are (supposed to be) for. They can’t “fix” us (we need to do that ourselves), but they can help set the process in motion.
If a therapist is incapable of providing that kind of compassion, it’s his/her fault, not mine (and my expectations weren’t too high). It’s like dating somebody who doesn’t treat us with love, care and respect. That’s not our fault either, but in both cases we need to opt out.
The problem with therapists is that we often see them at a point in our life when we’re way too vulnerable to enforce boundaries.
I agree with you, EllyB. A therapist should be understanding. In my example I had just found out what dynamics was going on with my mother and the therapist started screaming at me:”So, do you want to play victim? Let’s get on with the real work!” – which was supposed to be tapping. Well, I thought she would be able to listen what my issue was before “the work”. It was only my second or third session with her.
Also, I had asked one of my friends, who used to be a psychiatric nurse and had gone to counselling herself if it was wrong to seek support and validation from external sources (i.e, friends, therapists…) She said we did not live in vacuum and of course we needed support and validation.
You are not alone.
EllyB
This is the question, perhaps – what exactly is “the baggage”?
To me baggage is the unhealthy patterns, thoughts and beliefs we carry round with us. It isn’t the things that happen to us or were done to us, it is how we have processed those events. Nelson Mandela doesn’t have any “baggage” I would guess because however cruelly he was treated he did not let it affect his beliefs and his behaviour and his sense of purpose. No one can give you baggage.
Your therapist may not have behaved well – may not have given you the help you needed – but now you recognise that and realise that it wasn’t right for you, for whatever reasons (I honestly dont think many people really are malicious) you can make a conscious decision to let it go.
That said, however, I accept completely that how we are treated and what we observe as children is likely to impact on adult behaviours; and cause baggage that can be difficult and painful to unpack. In some cases maybe *cannot* be unpacked.
I ruminate on this a lot myself and where my *genetic* makeup ends (strong history of alcoholism, mental illness, bipolar, and suicide on both sides) and nurture (alcoholism, abandonment) begins, or how much is me making excuses for crappy behaviour that I could well have avoided?
Mymble: Thanks! I haven’t seen that therapist for a year, but she had made me second-guess myself ever since. Only now have I realized that this might be an unhealthy pattern in itself, even if it had been caused by an “authority” (a therapist).
She wasn’t empathetic with me when I shared my worst memory of childhood abuse (all that happened during our first counselling session). Now, one year later, I feel capable of giving that empathy to MYSELF. That involves being angry at my therapist. Back then I believed I deserved empathy, she made me believe I didn’t, but I was right all along. Anyway, my anger won’t harm her, right? She’s far away.
Mymble – my family has a strong history of personality disorders (especially narcissism), alcoholism, abuse of prescription drugs and sexual abuse (I think) on both sides. Does that make me “tainted” in any way? No. I think most of it is somehow related to personality disorders. People with personality disorders as well as their victims (except those who seriously try to overcome their trauma) seem to be addiction-prone. Same with suicide. About bipolar I don’t know.
I think if you’re working on your trauma, you’re already on your way to overcome all this. And yeah, stop making excuses for crappy behaviors (if you’re still doing that) – not making excuses anymore for other people’s crap is the way to healing.
EllyB, I clearly don’t know the details but as I see it, your therapist treated you with compassion … but not necessarily on YOUR terms. You did get angry with her after all. But you left. Granted, I do agree that some therapists aren’t gonna jive wth all patients, but sometimes that mirror they hold up to us reflects back things we don’t want, or are not ready to see. I absolutely speak from personal experience.
Mymble … love what you said! My family too has that history. It is what it is, not sure what came first, but am so grateful for medication and the wisdom of therapists and examples of “normal” people and now can function amongst without them hardly knowing the difference! 😉 And I am happy and so are my boys. Sigh. What a concept.
Lo J: I’ve dug fairly deply into medical information on anti-anxiety drugs, and due to the possibly serious side effects, I had come to the conclusion that I wanted to try to heal without drugs first.
After all, my ecounter with this therapist a little more than a year ago was my first attempt at therapy (and this discussion took part during the first 15 minutes of our very first session). I think I met (still meet) many important requirements for healing without any “fast” intervention via drugs. I’m aware of the roots of my trauma and willing to question my parents (I have been NC with them for half a decade). When I saw this therapist, I had already gone NC with a predatorial guy whom I had been “friends” with for 6 weeks. I had also cut off other toxic people in my life, was on a strict dating hiatus, had no addictions and was functioning well in everyday life. I’ve stuck to all of this ever since. This doesn’t sound like failure to me.
I think I have a right to choose what kind of treatment I want to try first. Even if I might be traumatized, I am still an adult. She made me feel bad about my “no” to immediate medication, but I think (as with any doctors) it is our right to question their recommendations, gather information on our own and then make a well-informed decision. We are not obliged to give in to their pressure.
Ladies, this is venturing into off topic territory. You’ve both made your points – neither of you need to validate the others perspective or defend your own position. I didn’t do medication but it doesn’t mean that it hasn’t been appropriate to some people’s situations nor does it mean that it’s appropriate for every person who has ever experienced trauma. Neither of you are ‘wrong’ so move it along.
EllyB, I suggest that you get behind your own decision to not try medication. You are each partly responsible for what happened in that situation – even if she did ‘make’ you feel bad in that situation, it was your own feelings about medication why you felt bad otherwise you wouldn’t still be talking about a 15 minute discussion that took place a year ago. You need to validate yourself and get behind your choice. The healing is not going to come from raking over that decision or perspective – if you have chosen to heal without medical intervention which is a more than valid decision, go and do the work to heal. That woman is just one therapist. She is not the gospel according to therapy or life, just like your parents aren’t very important people. They’re only important in their own deluded world and have no authority elsewhere.
If you continue down this line, you actually continue to victimise yourself. You are a victim of your parents abominable behaviour, but you are an adult now and you have been NC for over 5 years so why undo a very good decision by playing into that dynamic? You can create any life you want with work. You are very clearly affected by what happened to you as a child and that is 150% understandable, but and there is a big but, at some point you have to make a choice to stop trying to figure out or change your parents (even if it is from afar) and to stop trying to make up for lost time with people in your work environment who are clearly numpties, and start managing the responsibility of your own life. You do have to do work to get past the conditioning of the systematic abuse that your parents did but you can do it. You cannot erase your past – you can create your own present and future. It takes work and repetition of new habits to overtake the old habits. You have to try and keep trying day after day after day and it’s likely going to take professional help.
When you see any therapist, that first discussion should start with getting some clarification on your expectations. If you have ideas about what you would like (or wouldn’t like) to happen in sessions, what you think that this type of therapy does, you discuss it with the therapist at the outset, not assume it. There is no person that you can book to do work with that you can assume what they’re going to do. Be absolutely clear and this ensures you’re both on the same page and that you are in the appropriate environment for what you are expecting. Even if she did specialise in trauma, she had a different way of doing things and if she doesn’t want to sit there and take on a role of your parent, that is her prerogative. Could she have handled the situation better so that you didn’t come out of the room being even more stressed out? Yes of course but you also need to practice the empathy that you say she is missing, not to agree with her behaviour but to see where she might be coming from.
NML: Thank you for your honest words! As so often, you are spot on when we’ve gotten ourselves stuck in an unhealthy pattern again. I’ve spent almost an entire year secretly blaming myself for the “failure” of this therapy relationship, only to get angry at the therapist recently.
I was also scared about looking for a new therapist. I thought: “What if the new therapist has a different agenda from mine too? What if he/she wants me to break NC and reconcile with my parents, for example? What if I have to try, say, five more therapists, and no one is right for me? What if it takes me a year or longer to find a decent therapist because there are so few and they all have long waiting lists? Wouldn’t that be my fault? Wouldn’t that mean I’m a hopeless case?”.
This, again, is a thought pattern that had been established in my childhood. It has nothing to do with reality.
Sorry for posting again, but I think it’s not completely OT. To me, my old reasoning sounds an awful lot like “there a no good men (no good therapists) to date”. It almost makes me laugh now.
Thank you.
EllyB
I disagreed with my therapist on a no. of issues. They key one was major. He thought it was all right to have an affair with a MM if that’s what my heart wanted. I said no way, it goes against everything I believe in.
Back to topic – there’s no need to be afraid of making “one false move” in therapy either. And it cuts both ways, I think the therapist should be allowed to make a wrong move too (no dodgy stuff) provided you can both get back on track. It’s a relationship, albeit a professional one, and you should be able to navigate points of difference together. You don’t have to agree with them or they with you on all points. Otherwise you may as well be talking to yourself. I’ve had therapists who didn’t challenge me at all – looking back it did help somewhat but it was a very expensive way to just vent.
As for finding a therapist, it’s a bit of a crapshoot. The best one I had was male, in his 60s and specialised in eating disorders especially overeating. I’m female, in my 40s, don’t have an eating disorder and never been overweight. But we just fit. I was very specific, though,that I required explicit intervention and could take on board challenges. This was my fourth or fifth therapist and, while I don’t blame those previous ones, I was still stuck and needed a boot up the backside to progress. If you feel that what you need is a shoulder to lean on and someone who will just listen, then point that out. With the caveat that change is uncomfortable and if your therapy is too softyou may not not be getting as much out of it as you could.
Now don’t run off with persecuting yourself about the “failed” therapy. It didn’t work out,there is no “good and bad” in these situations, and there are other therapists!
By the way, I saw a comment of mine from two years ago from a link, where I wasn’t in a relationship and at that time had no intention of being in a relationship. And now I am in one. The most peaceful one I have been in for about twenty years. And the only one where our values chime. A lot can improve in a relatively short time (I’m not just talking about dating). Your fate isn’t sealed despite what you’ve been lumbered with.
“By the way, I saw a comment of mine from two years ago from a link, where I wasn’t in a relationship and at that time had no intention of being in a relationship. And now I am in one. The most peaceful one I have been in for about twenty years. And the only one where our values chime.”
🙂
If I may comment on this topic once again… There is an FAQ about finding a good therapist, written by the great author Alice Miller:
Unfortunately, I didn’t stick to this list when choosing my first therapist (she would have “failed” the question test because she didn’t like me to ask her questions), but I’m going to do it in the future. Finding a therapist who meets those requirements won’t be easy, but I believe it would be worth it.
As to therapists challenging our beliefs: Yes, that’s part of their job, but there are both healthy and unhealthy challenges. I think my gut instinct is capable of telling me the difference (if I’m willing to listen). For example, NML is challenging unhealthy beliefs in us as well, but for me, it usually feels right when she does it. The same is true for the authors of several good books I’ve read.
Absolutely! What all said. I had several therapists, not sure if it was me, them, the combo the timing or what. And we are still a work in progress which is life. Yeah!! We’re doing the best we can. Find what’s right for you just don’t give up. And I said the wrong thing and it was all my fault. Not really. Just wanted to stay on topic. Thanks everybody!
in regards to seeing a therapist. i had my first session today …had a previous therapist which i left after a few sessions as she went on a hate campaign against the muslim man i was seeing. telling me such things ‘well its typical of a muslim man to be this way etc’. i didnt like her judgmental views. anyway i feel comfortable with my new therapist. he’s very much about not about playing the ‘victim’ role. next week we’re looking at how my being bullied as a child has influenced the way i conduct relationships. i find his stance quite powering actually. for me, i don’t want a sympathetic therapist. i want someone honest and upfront.
grace you say “I’ve had therapists who didn’t challenge me at all” this therapist challenges me..makes me look at things from another perspective. makes me feel normal. for example he says stuff like “instead of looking at things this way, see it this way etc”
so i’ve had a lot of “ohhhh” moments. i also feel less crazy as i told him about my facebook stalking tendencies. he told me that as i seem to be competent in using the computer, why dont i put it into better use and read stuff on being mindful etc.
i guess its just the way he’s talking makes me feel less depressed and more better actually.
Everyone has to take responsibility for their actions. But even if you did something wrong and it affects how you get on, well that’s a problem for the relationship and not just that person.
In my last relationship, I had a need for sexual attention (or any kind of loving attention) which my boyfriend refused to give me even though I would keep asking and told him that it upset me. This was over a 6-8 month period. In the end he blamed me. But it was a problem for our relationship and he thought it was all about him. Now I cannot believe he tried to make it out to be my fault. He said he was too busy to show me affection. He had plenty of time for porn. In fact I think he preferred porn because he could get the job done quickly for the same result and not have to pay attention to me, which would take up his valuable time.
So now I don’t say to myself that I should have been more accommodating or that I’m selfish for caring about sex (which he convinced me of). It didn’t matter about the hurt words I said when I got angry with him about it. You have to get 100% from both sides.