Even if we are not ‘in love’ or have not said the ‘L word’, is there mutual care, trust, and respect?
Do I like how he/she treats others?
There were emails and comments that basically went along the lines of ‘He was really nice to every Tom, Dick, and Harry except for me’ as if this invalidates the notion of asking this question in the first place. But if you’re homing in on how they treat others and not how they treat others and you and whether there’s a disparity between the two, you’re missing the point.
Everything is contextual in relationships so anything that you think about someone needs to be related back to the context of you and the relationship.
The reason why I stress asking yourself about how you’re treated and how others are treated is for the very reason that we are inclined as humans that even when we are not personally experiencing something ourselves, to be riddled with self-doubt if we believe that someone else is. – What’s wrong with me?
There is no point in going on about how he’s kind to kids and animals if he is unkind to you. Are you feeling the milk and honey of his kindness?
There’s no point in going on about how everybody likes him if at the end of the day, he treats you with a lack of care, trust, and respect, never mind love. Do you like him? Does he like you? Do these wonderful characteristics filter their way to your relationship?
There’s no point in saying how he helps the old lady down the street – who cares? Yes it’s nice but you’d be surprise how helpful even the most depraved of people can be when they want to kid themselves for a few minutes! What does the fact that he’s kind to someone else mean to you and your relationship?
It’s great that he goes to church, is a pillar of the community, and claims to be a man of God but is he living congruent with his values? Or are you getting a Jeckyll and Hyde experience?
What’s the point in talking about his exes and how he was with them? You’re not in the same relationship, you weren’t there, and for whatever reason, these things are not a part of your relationship.
It is important to see the whole person – not just home in on the bits that suit you because it creates a distorted perspective.
Perspective means that you ask yourself all the questions and if one of them doesn’t stack up, how does it affect other things that you believe about them and the relationship?
So for example, if you ask yourself whether you’re treated with love, care, trust, and respect, and it’s a negative, but when you ask yourself whether you like how he treats others you get a positive, you know that:
1) You’re not getting that experience that others are. This doesn’t mean you make it your vocation to play Columbo and discover why and try to prove yourself and get validation, but it does mean that you use the disparity as a red flag that alerts you that something is wrong and opt out.
2) This person is not consistent or authentic because these qualities and characteristics are compartmentalised. Authentic people get authentic relationships and you need someone and also need to be someone, who is living congruent with their values. If you have ‘split personalities’, there are conflicts of interests and you (or they) will be doing actions that inadvertently undermine their efforts.
3) You’re probably not seeing them realistically. If you still want to be with them in spite of the fact that they treat you badly while treating others well, you have them on a pedestal, are cloaked in illusions, and potentially trapped in your own feelings.
You’re correlating other peoples experiences back to you believing that based on others, you can get it if you just do enough of X,Y,Z.
You’re here now and you’re not getting that experience – instead of looking at as a reflection on you, why are you not looking at it as a reflection of them and seeing them in a more real light?
Perspective and seeing the person and the relationship as a whole means that you relate your perceptions back to you and your relationship to see if these perceptions hold true and when they don’t, you use it as a signal to look closer at your relationship.
The boyf is well liked, an all round good guy, behaves with integrity, and respected by his nearest and dearest, but the fact is, if I didn’t feel the benefit of this, I couldn’t give a damn about any of these things.
Everything is contextual and you must see the wood instead of the trees instead of looking at individual aspects and not adding the pieces together.
Those things you admire? Unless you’re feeling the benefit of them, stop admiring and take them down off their pedestal so that you can get real.
Those things they do for everyone else or for their exes? Bothered-o-clock unless it affects your relationship positively. If it doesn’t, why latch onto it? It doesn’t exist in your relationship and in that context, it means that you’re holding onto something that isn’t real and are in denial – two things that make for a lot of pain. And remember, pain is not love, it’s pain whatever context you look at it.
Your thoughts?
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Great blog post Natalie. So true what you say about authenticity. My ex husband claims to be a Christian, goes to church and bible study, leaving my kids for long hours whilst he does. He is snide, angry, bitter and controlling whilst trying to put me down and deride the GREAT relationship I am in. Not very Christ-like! Quite pitiful.
Everyone thinks he’s wonderful. That was not my experience. He was never authentic and as such he is still lacking a basic authentic relationship and probably always will. He thinks the way he behaves will get him someone nice. Good luck with that.
wow if that comes from a christian man what can you expect from a non-christian man? Glad he is your Ex husband now.
NML I am so devouring your latest post. All of them relate to my situation right now. Very timely!! Thanks so much!! Much love.
This is a trap that I think many of us find ourselves in, that really makes matters so much worse for our self-esteems, and creates “crazy-making” when we are trying to leave the relationship, and no one can believe any of the psycological or emotional abuse these people have dished out.
To see them be so good to others, makes us wonder what it is that is so wrong with us, that we can’t get that? Its a literal slap to the heart every time they are a great guy to everyone BUT us.
Its part of their control, its part of their game. THEY KNOW that its their word against yours-and you will look like the crazy one if you try and convince anyone that the man you’ve been with, dating, living with, married too-is as Natalie says, a complete ASS CLOWN. Because when the relationship ends-no matter who ends it-they WILL claim that YOU ARE CRAZY. When you seem to be, out of frustration, hurt, anger and bewilderment-they appear right.
So this post is excellent, because yeah….the hell cares how he is to everyone else? The fact that they are never good to the women they “love” but can appear to be the pillar of compassion and help and love to a virtual stranger instead-well, that alone is a flag so red a bull would charge at it. They want us to believe that there is something we are doing or not doing to “deserve” not to be treated the way others are-its all about control, and cutting down the self-esteem respect to create utter dependency on them. If you’ve noticed-they also tend to brag about all the great things, the favors they’ve done, and the help they’ve given to the neighbors, ex wife, kids, etc. They want you to know just how great they are-to everyone else. Just a game in their arsenal of soul-sucking!
Great insight, especially regarding the crazy making/accompanying destruction of your own reputation and the bragging aspect. Now when a guy brags about what a saint he is, I see a glaring red flag.
What does it really mean when the guy has an active profile on a dating website? does it mean he is looking to cheat? Is it just like checking out girls on the street? He says his gf is the only good thing in his life and yet he has a visible profile on a dating website.
so true, one of the reasons i became so comfortable with having a baby with my baby daddy, EX now, was because he was sooooo great with kids.We planed my pregnancy, were happy for the time my tummy wasnt showing, and as soon as there was a buldge, it was, Hey thanks but actually i am with someonelese and want nothing to do with the both of you. i was shocked and surprised, she is two and he has never cared to even see her. Does anyone know how one raises a child that is not gonna have issues with the fact that her dad did niot give a rats ass about her???
You have to counsel her early before she becomes a fallback girl herself in a quest for paternal love/attention. I wish someone had the knowledge imparted on this blog to impart to me when I was reeling from the departure of my own dad, it would have saved a LOT of heartache in all of my relationships.
I’ve already started guiding my own little girl towards viewing the dynamics of (all) relationships realistically/avoiding fantasy building/ accepting her role in conflicts/and the fact that many operate with their own agendas and aren’t concerned with the ensuing collateral damage.
Regarding not getting the experience that others are …
… some men think that they are with you all the time and so feel like they can ‘spoil’ or ‘treat’ others when you go out together which can seem totally inconsistent as to when you are the apple of his eye when you are alone (including being out) or with certain groups of people. Of course this may be as partly due to that fact that he has not figured out how he feels about you. You need to decide if he is still respecting you, if you are addressing it with him, how long you will let this behaviour go on… if it is bothering you – it is a red flag.
Re compartmentalising – I have always thought that we should be the same in every setting and it does make life easier. The consequences if we don’t can affect various areas of our lives. eg we have all heard stories of popular teachers who were caught out is some sort of scandal – sex, drugs, being drunk… only to lose respect in the classroom. However men are defaulted to be compartmentalised so I now believe that perhaps a bit more give and take and not such rigid rules need to apply. Many people codeswitch (speak differently) in different situations very successfully.
Love the post Natalie…but I always do 🙂
It’s true…it doesn’t matter how a man treats other people what matters is how he treats you. Indeed, I would argue that how a man treats those closest to him is more indicative of his true character than how he treats a stranger. Most ACs/EUMs are ego maniacs, it’s always about them and their needs. Many are also narcissistic, not all, but most. So him being nice to complete strangers is an ego boost b/c then other people can say what a great guy he is, “he’s so caring”, “he’s so helpful”, “he’s so wonderful”, “he such a good person”, yada yada. Like NML said, that means nothing if at the end of the day he treats you with indifference, contempt, disrespect, or disdain. No one can really “see” his treatment of you because it’s just you and him in your relationship and so he can be whatever he wants with you beacuse you really don’t count in his eyes, not really. The commentator who said that this behavior is a trap to make you look crazy when you do complain was spot on. They make it so no one will believe you and they can continue to live in the illusion that they are wonderful people and the women they deal with are the crazy ones.
Although no one wants a sociopath, we all want a partner who is kind, considerate, empathetic and caring, but I’d rather be with a man who will treat me and close loved ones with love, honor, care and respect but perhaps a bit cool towards strangers than be with a man who treats me like filth from the bottom of his shoe but is “upstanding in the community.” The “upstanding ones” are usually very small inside and need praise and accolades from others in order to feel good about themselves. Having just you and your attention is not enough for them and their ego.
from Lisa – “when we are trying to leave the relationship, and no one can believe any of the psycological or emotional abuse these people have dished out.” (many many ppl have said to me I should ‘just get over it’, and they don’t understand ‘what the problem is, the guy treated you bad, you should want him out of your life’, not understanding how much emotional damage and mind-screwing my ex AC has done to me, and how hard it is to sort it out and heal from it)
and… “Its part of their control, its part of their game. THEY KNOW that its their word against yours-and you will look like the crazy one if you try and convince anyone that the man you’ve been with (dating, living with, married to) is as Natalie says, a complete ASS CLOWN. Because when the relationship ends-no matter who ends it-they WILL claim that YOU ARE CRAZY. When you seem to be – out of frustration, hurt, anger and bewilderment-they appear right.” (my ex did all this and more, and yes, I am deemed ‘the crazy one’, even though he has reneged on all his ‘promises’ and wouldn’t give me all he has promised to me a million times over. That BASTARD.)
“They want us to believe that there is something we are doing or not doing to “deserve” not to be treated the way others are-its all about control, and cutting down your self-esteem and self-respect to create utter dependency on them. If you’ve noticed-they also tend to brag about all the great things, the favors they’ve done, and the help they’ve given to the neighbors, ex wife, kids, etc. They want you to know just how great they are, to everyone else! Just a game in their arsenal of soul-sucking!” (Again, she has my ex described to a ‘T’. It WAS all about control with him, and he painted a lovely picture of how ‘good’ he was, but in reality, he treated me more cruelly and hurtfully than I’ve ever been treated in my life. Amazing how off-kilter their perception of themselves is, isn’t it?)
and from Kissie – “The “upstanding ones” are usually very small inside and need praise and accolades from others in order to feel good about themselves. Having just you and your attention is not enough for them and their ego.” (Again, AGREED.)
Both of you are soooo right. Your comments actually helped me to understand this article better, and to reflect on my own situation. My ex AC was *completely* like this. He often helped out total strangers, gave to charity (and then told me about it, that kinda defeats the purpose of being ‘charitable’ if you need someone to acknowledge your ‘goodness’), and would often claim to worry about letting OTHER ppl down, but never seemed to have a problem letting ME down. How stupid I was. I cringe thinking about it. A perfect example… I once asked him why he still talked to his ex-GFs and wouldn’t stop communicating with them (they were very obviously flirting with him and it was upsetting me), and after 3 yrs together, he tells ME that he doesn’t ‘want to upset THEM’… wtf?!?!? So that meant MY feelings mattered for nothing! I know, I know how ridiculous it all sounds now, in hindsight, like much of what I went through with him. Sighhh….
36 days today of NC, it’s still a struggle, and I still have more to learn…
I’m starting to hate him now, though, the more hindsight I get, and the more distance between us, when I really, clearly think about all the mind games and things he did to disrespect, hurt, and abandon me. And some hate feels alot better than feeling so sad and sorry for myself… Progress in thinking is good, but damn, does it hurt sometimes.
My AC husband had two serious affairs, one with a young woman only 5 years older than his daughter, which lasted almost 2 years before I found out. That was his second time. The first time he organised a 5-star, week-long resort holiday with his other lover of 1 year, get this… while I holidayed with HIS PARENTS (not my ideal holiday choice) and our children!!! My husband NEVER organised any vacation for me or the kids…he “never had the time”. For his lover, though, he chose the same place I had organised for our wedding anniversary a few years earlier! He told everyone he was at a “training course” somewhere really uninteresting. When I threatened a divorce, his mum could not believe that her “golden boy” would do something like that without a reason. His mum said that “sometimes that’s just what men do” and “a strong woman is one who stays by her husband” no matter what (WTF?!!).
When he would visit his folks, he would rave about how great he was at work/home, etc. His folks lapped it up. They didn’t know he was also a teen-porn addict, an underhanded bastard, a poor, disrespectful, unsupportive husband and uninvolved father, but ONLY when not in public. In public, he was a “nice” person and he ONLY bent over backwards when we had family and guests around. That was also the only time he was attentive to towards me, which really got me riled and made ME look like the cold bitch when I wouldn’t reciprocate.
But some people did see through the facade. Our 18YO daughter, definitely, and a couple of our close friends. My girlfriend confided in me that he seemed to wear a mask hiding his true emotions and at times appeared over eager during their visits. I was relieved that it was not just me, but others could also see his appalling behavior.
When I finally confronted the AC he actually said I ‘ brought out the worst in him’, thus admitting in a roundabout way his poor behavior…but , in typical AC fashion…not acknowelging the impact of that worst behavior on me, nor taking responsibility for it, and then shifting the blame to me.
He then made a point to tell me that ‘everyone else’ knew him in a different way. As if this would make his painful behavior with me OK and/or understandable. ‘Everyone else’ pretty much was his family unit, subordinates at work and salespersons at places he compulsively shops.. people who consider him valuable…becasue they are getting something from him that they need.
So, the crafted facade includes a good job, family guy, person visibly active in church, man who gives money to charities. But, an example I always found strange and never understood till much later, was that he would post thank you letters and cards, from organizations he donated to, on his walls or fridge. And the letters stayed up there for years.
People like this seek approval and validation, at a level that requires the least amount of emotional effort. And they really need that validation to remind them of their version of ‘worth.’ But this type of validation is so childish that it never fulfills, leading them to seek more, a catch 22 for sure. And that validation is what they want from us, but we don’t want donations, or upstanding citizen fake arm candy. We actually want more than they are aware of and capable of giving.
The EUM I knew is antisocial by choice, had no friends except for me and often called me his best friend. But, little in his behavior or actions matched that label. So, I was the only one challenging his carefully crafted image. When it came to the breaking point his options were to face the worst behavior that I brought out in him, face the truth, so to speak… or run away and write me out of the story. Which is what he chose. Still, I was surprised by his choice. In fact I will never be understand how someone could choose to run from, to abandon themselves over and over.
The emotionally capable person will face the truth and work with it, hard as it may be. The abandoners will want to continue in their fantasy world. They are busy crafting their own illusions about themselves, often at the same time we are busy crafting the hopeful illusion that they are more capable than they are. Why else would we possible stay ?
But, staying in their world keeps us in the throes of confusion and fantasy and avoidance. Getting out is the only path to getting real, for us for sure. Hopefully, our leaving gives them a glimmer of insight also, but that is not really our business.
Staying on enables all the unhealthy fantasies on both sides to get stronger. And so here we are, helping each other, working on the unique betrayal of confidence the abandoners present. It’s hard work and much more complex than I realized, but I know I am doing what I need to do to recover from a very unhealthy relationship.
NML writes a lot here about how to learn to stay away from EUMs and AC’s but I think there is another whole level of AC behavior that is sneaky, subtle and much more dangerous to the naive, which I was.
The good thing is that the same knowledge that applies to dealing with AC’s applies to the more dangerous versions. It’s hard to imagine getting involved ever again once you know what you can learn about on this site. Knowledge, staying aware and being able to leave, when something is not right, is key.
Aphrogirl – Wow, you are spot on. Your description of your AC matches mine to a T. The refusal to be held accountable, the desperate desire to cling to the “good guy” image, even in the face of behavior that proves him to be anything but. I have marvelled at his ability to rewrite the past to suit him, to always view himself as the victim and his relationship with his mother is insane – he still lives at home at age 40. The Peter Pan syndrome isn’t a joke – these guys exist and they can be destructive as hell. This site is amazing and so helpful. I wish I had found it weeks ago, when I was still reeling from breaking up with this clown.
Aphrogirl, your experience resonates strongly with me. In particular the childish behavior of our respective ACs.
My AC husband also had no friends and refered to me as his “best friend”. Over the years I realised how needy he was for validation of his percieved level of “worth”. I thought he would grow out of his constant craving for back patting, but to this day, he takes his work to “show-off” to his mum how great he is (company articles he has written – big deal. I used to do the same work)… just like a child coming home with a drawing they did at school. It sickens me to watch how his mother encourages this type of behavior instead of treating him as a grown independant and strong man/husband/father. He is 48 afterall.
He absolutely is convinced that he is more capable than he actually is. He HATES having his flaws pointed out to him and he HATES apologizing for ANYTHING, even his obvious screw-ups and mistakes. He has no interest in recognising his poor behavior and improving himself.
Unfortunately, although I can see through his facade, I am still with him. Why? Because financially I am in no position to leave…yet. Also our 12YO son needs him and although I worry about the bad behavior our son might pick up from his father, I worry more that my son will resent me for walking away from his dad without understanding fully why. You just can’t say to a 12YO how rotten their father is. Some might say I am allowing my son to learn to treat other people like this. But I feel that, at least this way, I too have an influence on my son’s behavior and surprisingly he is beginning to spot the hypocrisy of his dad and pulls him up sometimes.
It’s not an easy situation, but my head is up and I can see the big picture. I am under no illusions. When the time is right, I am definitely cutting loose and moving on. In the meantime, I am there 110% for and with my kids and can guide them to be strong, considerate individuals.
oh, so sorry, as I read your story I had hoped he was your ex.
Your predicament is not uncommon and I respect your goals to stay focused on raising kids and take the high road. Here is one more thing to be aware of though…I have a friend in a similar situation, whose older teenage sons actually believe that all women are stupid – they got this belief from watching their mom silently, gently and good naturedly put up with their dad’s childish and ill tempered behavior.
Her older daughter has expressed her bewilderment as to why she always acted like it was OK. We have talked about this and she is starting to gently assert herself, for her own sanity and because she sees how it has affected her kids. I also have encouraged her to talk to the kids about why she did it, maybe when they are a bit older. Part of her behavior is based on her understanding of how truly fragile his ego is.
I understand that finances and kids often keep people together. But I would encourage anyone suffering in an empty relationship, who has exhausted normal attempts to work to remedy, and is still convinced they have to stay…to start a self directed study course on one way relationships. One book I liked was The Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists. A quick search on Amazon will lead you to a lot of others.
You have to understand what you are dealing with, and how it is affecting your own behavior, in an attempt to keep yourself healthy in an unhealthy situation. This is really important. This is what I meant when I wrote about a level of AC behavior that I consider dangerous. You can lose your own sense of good behavior by staying on with these people who are really not authentic and thus not really in a relationship with you. You need to stay focused on being the best person you can be, and detaching from the emptiness that comes with loving people that cannot or will not reciprocate love.
A common theme is that these men are grownups stuck in childhood, seeking approval and at the same time unaware that they are angry and frustrated that they are still so needy. Unfortunately, they often take the anger and frustration out on their girlfriend/wives, without even knowing why they are doing it or even that they are doing it. Coupled with a lack of self awareness, and a belligerence that makes them refuse to take responsibility, you have the makings of a pretty depressing situation.
I was so lucky I was in an easy position to walk away. If you really feel you are not then work to stay strong and focused and true to your values. Best of luck.
OOOPS, as I wrote this last night I had forgotten about the cheating and his mom’s reaction in your original post. I am not trying to be harsh but…it’s hard for me to imagine anyone truly being OK with that level of deceit in any relationship, but especially with a husband, trying to raise kids.
It is also hard to imagIne your self esteem is not taking a big hit dealing with this level of betrayal and lack of accountability from him and mum.
This is a really good place to begin taking a hard look at our own self worth, and to examine and face some difficult truths about how we often do not value ourselves as much as we should. There is so much to read and digest here and much wisdom to be gained.
It is pretty common for women to bury and minimize their pain. This then makes it harder to shine a light on it and examine it. Doing anything less than that is just denial and avoidance.
It is hard to imagine a big life change, but options are almost always there. I find I went through big changes step by step; the moving forward was instinctive even if I was not sure which direction to go. Sometimes the change was within, sometimes it manifested into action. I found this website to be a great starting place.
I wasn’t sure which post to put this comment on, but decided to go with this post. The point I want to make is that guys, and A/C’s in general, always have to act like they “controlled” a situation, even when they didn’t. Listen to their “phrasing.” They will always say, “I did……” (or some variation) to imply that they “took an action” when in realty, the situation happened regardless of any “action” that the guy did or didn’t take. For example, my recent ex told me that “he broke of with some girl for… (doing something he didn’t like…).” This implies that he “took an action” and actually said the “break up words” to her. Well, I found out from another source that in the case of that particular girlfriend, the relationship “just fizzled out” and the so called “breakup” wasn’t the result of any specific “action” that the guy took. So, if a guy has a penchant for saying “I did….” (or some variation…), then he’s probably “taking credit” for something that happened anyway and wasn’t the result of his taking any sort of “action” at all! This really annoys me when guys do this! And guys will do this in a lot of situations, not just relationship ones. BUT!!! If you are dating a married guy, most likely, he will “claim” that he “took an action” (“Yeah, I broke it up with her”) when he actually didn’t. So, listen to a guy’s “phrasing.” If the guy seems to like to “claim credit” for things…. investigate further to see if he really did… “take an action” or if things just “happened anyway.” ANNOYING!
Another great, useful post (sorry, I am going through the back catalogue now, looking for support and inspiration). I used to think that because AC gave money to the homeless, cared about his family and was nice to waiters, that made him a good guy. I really admired the way he was with his friends. It just took me a while to see that I was not getting the same level of treatment. His friends could contact him day or night -I couldn’t. They were welcome anytime – I was not. He left for four months and “forgot” to give me his foreign phone number, and avoided using Skype, despite being on it every night with family and friends. Just another way to manage down my expectations, control the amount of contact and maintain the relationship on his terms. At my most vulnerable, I wanted to believe he was a good guy, even if I could begin to see he wasn’t, at least where I was concerned. I didn’t listen to the stories about the exes (and there were lots of them). At first, he spoke of them with great affection and respect. By the end, he began revealing that they had all hated him and many had hit him on the way out. That still wasn’t enough to push me out the door. What was I waiting for? What had I needed to hear? I am not sure what caused me to finally give up hope on him and cut contact (8 weeks and counting – my proudest accomplishment and the sanest thing I have done in the relationship). This site and the wonderful women on it have helped. My friends are all married to great guys and don’t really understand. One woman I work with was a big help – she had had an experience with an AC that changed her life and she helped me. She finaly admitted that, even after he had screwed her around terribly, she took him back 14 times over the next 12 months. That woke me up. I was in pain and just couldn’t imagine going through it that many times. When I cut contact, my AC struggled a bit but seems to have accepted it and has left me alone and I am happy about that. I keep reading and hearing these horror stories about the guys that just won’t go away. Fortunately, mine seems to have gotten the message, likely moved on to another and I finally had some peace of mind. What a journey this has been. I feel so strongly for those women who have been in this for years or even decades or had children with their ACs. You all deserve so much better and I hope you find it.
@Dee: My guy has left me alone, almost certainly found another woman (he’s very charming, funny, and very good-looking). It’s a good thing in the big picture, but, of course, a small part of me wants him to try to contact me. I don’t like that that’s true. This is a guy who would also have to be the first person to leave a conversation, but would never let me do so, even if I was simply busy with work (then, of course, once I started settling into the conversation, he would cut it off). Another narcissistic/control freak trait was that he did not like me giving directions in the car. He thought it was me questioning his competence. This would be the case even if we were travelling somewhere neither one of us had been and I happened to be in the passenger seat with the map. It was nutball behaviour, and not emotionally sustainable at all! I am also relieved that it only took a year (and now processing time) out of my life, whereas, I think it some practical circumstances were different, it could have sapped many more years, and probably led to me being a single parent (as he often tried to get me pregnant). YIKES.