I feel for the men and women of this world who are bagged and tagged as ‘nice’ – a very vanilla term incidentally – and either discarded for not being ‘exciting’ (this is often fear, uncertainty, drama, ambiguity, and anxiety mislabeled ), or are held on to as passing time candidates aka fallback options. “I don’t really feel that interested in him/her and I don’t feel the chemistry / fireworks that I did with [the unavailable ex who may even have mistreated them] but I’m going to keep dating them in case I start to feel it soon and/or no one better comes along”.
It’s the scarcity mentality: in a situation where we’re trying to figure ourselves out at the same time as trying to date, we’d rather collect people and put them on layaway than be willing to delve into our own feelings and thoughts and make a decision.
We think that decent people are in a short supply so we’d better hold onto someone we regard as decent even if we’re not interested for fear that if we let this one go, not only will somebody come along and snap up this person, but we’re also afraid that we’ll be left empty handed and regretting not settling. We only look at things from our perspective and forget to consider whether we would want to be treated and regarded in this manner. Ironically, we’ve likely experienced a Mr or Miss Unavailable’s ambivalence but don’t recognise it in ourselves.
I hear from so many people who go on 0-3 dates saying stuff like, “They seem really available” or “We have a lot of shared values”. Now of course this may be true in the long run but it says a lot about our previous partners when we can go on a smattering of dates and are going on about how ‘available’ they are. What kind of exes did we have?
Availability is about whether that person is emotionally, physically, mentally and spiritually available for a mutually fulfilling relationship. People unfold. Most of us are ‘available’ for all sorts in the beginning – it’s what comes next and consistently that matters.
The fact that we’re not triggered into jumping through hoops doesn’t mean that they’re The Nicest Person On Earth TM or super available or even boring. Only being in the present is going to help us understand who they are. The danger is, when we’ve been living on a diet of shady relationships, it’s easy to inflate what to other people might be some pretty basic stuff and then benchmark partners against it.
- He/she spoke to me in a respectful manner.
- They didn’t wait until 11pm on a Friday to arrange to come round.
- They call me once a week versus my ex who never called and just texted / Facebooked me.
- They held me after sex and stayed until the morning.
- They didn’t try to sleep with me on date one.
Really, what the frick is the world coming to when we’re benchmarking people for basic decent behaviour? When we start crying or feel genuinely surprised at being treated in a kind, caring, compassionate and loving manner, it’s a sign that we have not only been neglecting ourselves in some way but that we have also stayed in shady relationships past their sell-by-date.
When we’ve derived our power and even worth from sex and then try to ‘settle down’, it’s not unusual to find ourselves claiming that a ‘healthy’ partner doesn’t do it for us. It chimes with this idea that there’s almost no point in bothering with improving our self-esteem or relationship habits because we’re either going to ‘dry up’ or be saddled to somebody who we don’t feel attracted to.
What’s missed is that when sex has been the source of our power or what what the relationship relied on, regardless of whether the new relationship is healthy or not (it takes two to make a healthy relationship…), if we don’t have to objectify ourselves and use sex as a lure with this particular person, it means that the cues and triggers will not be present for us to have the excitement associations or to feel invested in the situation.
With this particular pattern of thinking and behaviour, we need the threat or at least the possibility of [the person/relationship on offer] being snatched away. That threat doesn’t exist if the other party doesn’t have a dodgy agenda or quite simply, isn’t heavily reliant on sex. In reality, all that we truly know in a situation like this, is that we don’t have to hustle. That’s it.
Mr and Miss Unavailables feel most attracted to and in need of the person and the relationship when there is a lot of uncertainty and they’re in danger of losing it. They associate desire with the out of control feeling. Once they feel in control, they often lose interest simply because they perceive the other party to want, need and expect more than they can deliver. They feel suffocated even though they’re not being. They may even lose respect for the person and do things to undermine the relationship.
For some of us, if we don’t have to hustle, we don’t feel interested. We conveniently forget what ‘hustling’ represents – uncertainty, ambiguity, pain and loss of self through fighting our corner.
When we spend our time comparing something we’re in to something unhealthy, it’s easy for it to look like the best meal we’ve ever had because we’ve been hungry, possibly starving for a while, but that’s not really based on engaging in and judging the relationship on its own merits. If anything, we miss the point because we’re still coming from a place of focusing on what we’ve left behind/what we don’t want instead of what we do want and the direction that we’re headed.
When we try to figure out whether we’re not interested or whether our fear of vulnerability or commitment is blocking our interest, it’s a moot point because either way, we need the self-awareness and self-knowledge that comes with being willing to listen to and be ourselves, to help us take up a position.
Yes it’s a good idea to date healthier, available people after realising that you’ve typically been involved with unavailables but – and there is a big but – there’s no point in doing this if you don’t have the thinking and behaviour to support this. You need to be emotionally available and so willing to be you and in touch with your feelings, thoughts, values etc, not just available to be ‘picked up’ by someone. If you’re not, you’ll just be going through the motions and possibly forcing you to do something that on some level, you’re telling you that it doesn’t feel ‘right’ and that’s because even though you may recognise to a degree that being in unavailable relationships isn’t working for you, you may still be working with the same associations in the background. In your mind you may be going, ‘Chasing, ambiguous = will have to work harder for this = chemistry and interested. Chasing me but not ambiguous = too keen = seems strange and unfamiliar = not interested’.
If you can’t work out whether you’re interested or not and you find it difficult to understand what you want or decisions that you’re faced with, it’s a sign that you need to increase your knowledge of you so that you have the increased self-awareness that you need in order to act in your best interests and also live in line with your values. If you don’t, not only will you end up feeling confused and anxious while possibly loitering in the relationship while you try to figure out your next move or line up someone else, but you will place too much reliance on partners to tell you who they are because you won’t trust you to judge the situation based on them showing you who they are or you even showing you how you feel and think.
There’s no easy answer to this but if you can’t figure out if you’re interested and struggle to know what you want, take at least a little time to get to get a reading on who you are including what you need and want, as well as how you feel – a Feelings Diary for even a few weeks will give you some insight into what you’re experiencing as well as a greater sense of command of you.
Your thoughts?
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The timing of your posts are so incredible sometimes. Thank you <3
Or you can just go through a ton of pain and betrayal, lies and abandonment by wishy washy kinda sorta maybe type dudes for years until your not even attracted to “anyone” at all anymore and have no choice but to be with yourself for a while, LOL!
Try not to make that option if you can help it, feeling bitter sucks and is not any big thrill either.
If you found Baggage Reclaim your lucky, stay with it.
When I come across a ‘nice’ guy, which I’ve noticed for me now means warm and assertive, I near trip over myself with desire. This has come as a surprise because for a couple of years I was so frustrated with the type of men I had ‘chemistry’ with. What and who I am attracted to is changing rapidly.
I, like everyone else, have enough inherent struggle in my own humanness that I don’t need to go out hunting for it in the name of chemistry. When you stop denying your own struggles and pain in your life and start dealing with it piece by piece, your attraction to bad boys evaporates.
The more you start to feel/contemplate your own pain, the more you want a companion/partner versus chasing around a headache with a penis.
Very good. Yes, very sad that I now give points for basic decent behavior, and yes, have had bad relationships starting with my marriage in Japan in 1994…divorced him in 97- he would disassociate and have violent tantrums every 3.5 weeks.
I spent time happily alone, moved to a low- rent apartment in Seattle and had a several year relationship with a true psycopath- who strove to be a good person but missed the mark on acceptable normal behavior. I took about 5 years to repair and heal, then fell hard in love with a Playa narcissist who rotated me in his harem. Got over him about a year ago but I still have to work at it.
So from 95 to 2014 that’s almost 20 years of struggling and healing. .. now I’m approaching 60 and it’s a whole different ballgame. Pre-nups and guarding the estates & wealth…I still look very young, maybe 40 not 60. I’ve never had an old man, and prefer more youthful men, and really, I don’t even go out enough in settings where I will meet new men for possible dates. Sometimes I make it a priority to socialize more, and I usually meet new men when I travel. But right now it’s not top priority.
Some days it’s like I hear “Ding ding ding ding: GAME OVER”.
I chose to work abroad, travel and be free. I had excellent relationships in my home – town with compatible good men. I should have married one particular good guy, but I chose the single life and the times have changed and I never thought I’d be spending this much of my life in solitude. A huge challenge.
You might consider giving men your own age a try. I hate it when men “only date women 10 years younger” and I wonder what the motivation behind it is. You just might be surprised how comforting and satisfying it can be to hang out someone who has lived enjoyed life as much as you have.
Brenda, Well spoken and I agree.
Eeeeh… Another of my favourite topics! 😀 As for myself, the need to “hustle”, especially in my younger years were the cause for being brought up with “ambition” being a major value in life. My mum has always innoculated me the idea that if something is easy to obtain, is not worthy enough, and that it’s more interesting/challenging to go for the difficult path instead of something that is accessible to everyone. Therefore, I applied it to all areas of life: I always found myself going for the “unpopular” choices instead of the mainstream. Professionally, it was definitely an opportunity to grow. But from the sentimental point of view, I often used to find myself attracted to attached guys, or to guys who were ignoring me (especially guys in senior year of high school while I was a fresher 😛 ), or to ambiguous situations. Nothing drammatic, such as abusive people, because I can’t stand aggressivity in any of its forms. Because I thought of myself as being ambitious, and unfearful to fight and win over whatever obstacles. No obstacles/accessible = boring. Gradually, by growing up, and with a lot of self-work and BR readings 😀 , I gained more insight into things. However, as Natalie says at some point, the fact that someone is a decent person, it may not mean that he’s actually right for us. But I’m still trying to figure out a way to actually realize whether you’re GENUINELY not into that person or whether it’s just your “issues” talking.
“But I’m still trying to figure out a way to actually realize whether you’re GENUINELY not into that person or whether it’s just your “issues” talking.”
Yes….this is exactly what Im dealing with as well. It’s hard to sort through, but keeping a feelings diary is helping.
So much for me to think about here. I am taking a step back from the man I’ve been dating to reassess my wants and needs, look at the evidence again (I know i’ve been ignoring some things about him that I shouldn’t have) and just take stock. I am so attracted to him, it’s overwhelming lol- and I realise how even with shady past relationships, the uncertainty and ambiguity has just increased the attraction and the obsession for me. A very nice guy recently confessed he has feelings for me but i’m just not attracted to him at all. Granted, this is mostly a physical thing, as superficial as that may sound…but having said that, it makes me think about whether i’m blaming the physical or just can’t appreciate the great qualities he has because it’s just “too easy”. One way or another, it’s clear I need this time to myself. And based on how things have been with this latest guy, I have seen in action that I need to know what I want first. I made the very mistake of letting him call the shots because I didn’t sort out my needs in my own head. Lesson learned.
It’s not shallow, Lioness. At the end of the day, physical attraction is physical attraction and it is important. And you have to feel attracted to the person you’re with, not just “tollerating” him because he’s a nice guy. 😉 But, for example, I’d be wary if you actually found him attractive AND likeable as a person, but then looked for petty reasons to bail. Think: zodiac incompatibility, dodgy fashion sense, not good at DiY, etc. These things, in my opinion, signal issues.:D To tell you to start dating him, because feelings will grow, I wouldn’t be completely honest, as I’m not sure, because it’s something I’m trying to figure out for myself as well. How much should you wait for feelings to grow? Will they ever grow, actually? And how much? For me, they didn’t in such situations, and the proof lies in the fact that even years down the line, I never regretted not having given these guys a chance.
Thanks for your comment Sandra, it definitely has me pondering! It’s funny, I think in my head I somehow associate being attracted to someone who isn’t necessarily considered attractive by the greater world as being more virtuous than being attracted to someone attractive lol! The guy I was most recently seeing is beautiful. As in, used to be a model haha. And I have caught myself thinking 1 of 2 things: either my ego is stroked or I feel not good enough! Oy vey.
Massive digression aside I will definitely be watching my patterns where I find myself shutting down positive opportunities in favour of the more familiar ambiguous ones. As for growing feelings, I’m all for giving someone a shot but I guess there’s a line with also being careful about falling for potential! The guy doesn’t have to be bad for you to spend your life hoping he will be something he isn’t.
Spot on Sandra81
If ones reasons for not being attracted are physical, based on basic lifestyle incompatibility, red flags, or a combination thereof, it ain’t gonna happen nor should it. This is my main beef with so many rship blogs that tell us older, successful chix to settle, settle, settle. A similar aged man is never told to do this. I myself have been guilty of this twice, after having to leave rships with cheaters, whom I was really attracted to both in terms of the physical and lifestyle. Think about it: what does settling
look like? You play “let’s pretend”, maybe for years but you really don’t want him touching you, being with you, going anywhere with you. At some point, unless the poor dude is totally clueless, he’s gonna know there’s nothing he can do to make it work. Resentment all round. We are told that the pool of older men, particularly peers, is drying up and it’s true. We chix generally live longer and are healthier and here, most older single men are here because they cannot afford to live anywhere else in the region. Socioeconomic refugees. Many of these dudes have manners, can treat others with decency, but they have other major issues, either by circumstance or by choice. That leaves new folk coming in or tourists. Since my dads hospitalization, I have found that his affairs, which he said he had gotten into order, are a mess, and for awhile, I need to foot the bill for some of his care care, pay his bills, til I can get things worked out with lawyers. Leaving this job for one guaranteed to pay about half, is not an option. This leads me to another beef: any person who thinks that a healthy woman/man should settle for someone who hasnt taken care of themselves by choice; this entails often limiting ones own life for years and watching your loved one suffer from heart/lung/kidney/ mobility conditions, all feeding off one another and paying for the privilege. True, our loved ones may suffer illness, as may we, but it’s kind of a different issue when it’s due to their choices made decades prior. I have two sorta, kinda friends who are both EU and know it. I do go out with them , let em stay in my home as I have a big house, but there’s no sex as I am looking for a true LTR, not a cheap shag. One is a long time separated, the other I met on line who says he wanted a ltr, but due to severe emotional and physical trauma, probably cannot ever function in a rship again. I am clear about my wishes, am clear that I am still looking, and they both understand. I get someone to go hiking, running, eat out with during the 9 months of dating downtime here, they get someone who listens and is there for them. This may make me seem EU myself, but for now, it’s the best I can do.
HI Lioness,
This isn’t particularly directed at you but your comment touched on something that I have been pondering for a while.
I think that sometimes we think that this one person has to have *everything*, otherwise we can’t possibly be happy. The person needs to be the provider/supporter/hot/attractive/fit etc. You know, tick all the boxes. And sometimes this does all come together in one person but I think the reality is that this perfect combination doesn’t come together in most couples, but the people involved in the partnership make a choice. Like a list of pros and cons. And they commit.
If you want kids, you are far better off choosing a man who wants to commit to a family. If you want a nice lifestyle, you might choose a man who is prepared to work a lot etc etc (these are just examples). And I think we struggle with this because it isn’t very romantic. It seems we are all perfectionists in seeking love where, often, a dash of pragmatism wouldn’t go astray. You know, think about the major goals in your life and then think about the traits in a partner that will help you achieve them.
And, this may set off a storm, but it isn’t my intention – I think this idea of monogamy as our natural state in partnership/long term relationship is a problem. To be clear, I’m not talking about the dishonest cheaters and people who behave in ways to hurt others – but I think many people can’t talk honestly and openly about their views about monogamy. For some people, monogamy is their inherently natural state and for other people this is less so. Personally, I lean towards non-monogamy and it is something that I am very honest about. And sex and connection is very important to me. What I have discovered is that I am much more open to different types of men because I don’t have an expectation that any one person will supply me with every relationship experience I am going to want to have in my life – it really takes the pressure off and means I can just enjoy people for who they are.
Anyway – to cut off any comments at the pass (although happy to answer questions!):
– no, I don’t think monogamy is the bedrock of society;
– no, I don’t just sleep around;
– yes, everyone knows my views (I don’t keep it a secret);
– yes, some men don’t like it – which means we cannot date because (a) I don’t want to change my life to suit one person and (b) I don’t want to hurt people when I care about them;
– no, I don’t think everyone needs to explore non-monogamy, but I really think we need to discuss more openly with our partners what we expect from a relationship in the general sense and what we need from a relationship physically;
– yes, I do believe we tie to many ‘issues’ to sexuality (particularly female sexuality) and I think it is unhelpful.
Questions/comments – fire away!
“You need to be emotionally available and so willing to be you and intouch with your feelings, thoughts, values etc”
No words can say it better than this. Thank you again Natalie, I wasnt even aware that I wasnt available myself, I wasnt even aware of this available/unavailable stuff, to me, I was just trying to protect myself from those selfish wolves so that they could not hurt me again and again, untill I met my Mr Unavailable, that I fell so deeply in love.
Now I am “Work in progress” in becoming available, so that I can be myself again, and love honestly again. It is my third month in no contact, I am so happy for my achievement even though sometimes it is not easy.
“When we try to figure out whether we’re not interested or whether our fear of vulnerability or commitment is blocking our interest, it’s a moot point because either way, we need the self-awareness and self-knowledge that comes with being willing to listen to and be ourselves, to help us take up a position.”
The above really resonated.
Right now I am in a really good place in my life, but it is also a really scary, uncomfortable place because in several areas-job, city that I live in, new relationship-what I have is something that, because of my age (47) I am feeling I have to settle for.
I am esp feeling like I am putting serious brakes on a new relationship. The guy has many good qualities-involved father, hard worker, seems to be successful and good at what he does, and very respectful and considerate towards me- but man is he moving way to fast and NOT acting on my comments that I am not sprinting towards a goal at only one month in.
I think he is a bit of a Florence and looking for someone to nurture but I don’t need or want that. I have been feeling really confused lately and not like I want to go forward. I really do need to get with myself and figure out what is going on with me.
Thanks!
Same age as you dancing Queen and perhaps an alternative way of looking at 47 is that , we have come this far and survived it, why think we have to settle, as we get older, hopefully we become more secure and less willing to do what we don’t want to do. The media says 47 is old, but I feel we have to ignore that.
@louise: exactly! I am feeling like people expect me to take anything that looks good on paper!
It was kind of laughable: my friend told me that I should be happy with this guy, because he is not a self-involved narcissist like the last two guys who asked me out ( that I ran screaming from lol).
Seriously? I should date him because he is not a narcissist? “He is not a serial killer either so I suppose… I mean why not?” was the response that I should have said but I did not think of it lol.
Being in a new relationship after years of being in an unavailable one, does feel somewhat uncomfortable because there is no drama. And this is so spot on where the ‘basics’ feel like I’m being treated like a queen. And it feels awkward, like I need to ‘do’ something in return for it. It does feel a little boring, but not in a bad way, its actually nice not to feel so stressed all the time. I’m attracted to this person, not obsessed like w the ex, so I’m relaxed. If it doesnt work out, it doesnt. I’m not going to be doing drive-bys or anything where I’m losing my self-respect. I wouldnt take it personally. One thing my new bfriend said to me was “you seem a little guarded, like you dont express how you feel…its not a bad thing, I just want to know if you’re happy”. To me, it’s not really a good thing, either. My feelings used to be met with defending, neglect, and telling me they’re wrong. I’m learning it’s not easy to re-condition myself in thinking that no, not all people base the relationship on sex; it’s not the main focus ALL the time while talking a lot of smack about wanting a relationship, but never even having the basics. My guy is always saying such nice things about me to his family and friends…. This is weird to me. I was used to the opposite for so long. Like I dont ‘deserve’ it, ‘what did I do to deserve him saying I’m awesome?’ I take it one day at a time. Of course I want a healthy relationship, having one is unfamiliar to me though, and I dont know how to ‘be’ in one. It feels frustrating, because I constantly feel that I need to be ‘doing’ something.
Demke,
Be careful about the urge to be doing something. You could end up becoming a fallback girl, even if the guy is decent and kind in the beginning. The dynamics in a relationship can change anytime, that is why it´s important to remain aware at all times of your feelings.
I relate very much to what you describe, and a very insightful friend once told me that I seem to have trouble receiving, and not only receiving from others but from myself, giving to myself. I can give to others, but not to me. This made a lot of sense to me, and I´ve been trying to work on it but I notice it´s really hard. Like I don´t even bother buying myself a new coat because why waste all that money? When I have a perfectly ugly old coat (a cast-off someone gave me) I can use anytime it rains, and it doesn´t rain very often where I live. At the same time, I do notice this doesn´t make me happy at all. So I made a resolve that whenever I buy something for someone else (like for my kids) I have to get myself something too. Which is very weird. I´d rather just do something else. But I think it´s a step in learning to treat myself more kindly, and sometime be able to accept kindness from others too.
Demke,
Your way of thinking is tied to your self-esteem. You don’t think your awesome, so you don’t why anybody else would think you are. Please address this issue or you may find yourself dipping back into a unhealthy relationship because the healthy ones don’t have enough “excitement”.
So happy for you DEMKE.
I hope one day I will have the healthy one too, but for now I will wait till it will come my way, I will never search for love again. Now I believe in “If it is meant to be, it will be.”
Certain parts of this story resonated. As a successful assertive, but not aggressive, female, most men feel threatened by me, or are seeking a “trophy”, and I am not that person. I have been left with “the dregs” — addicts, users, and losers. I have tried to change my outlook and perspective on the internet dating scene, but I have not had any strong, positive, validating experiences on that front, either. I refuse to date someone who smokes, is cheap (read: not frugal, but has held on to the first dollar earned), or who is an addict. At present, I am 200 days away from early retirement, and am looking forward to traveling, attending more movies and concerts, and ethnic dining. I guess I will enjoy these things either alone, or in the company of good friends. I have been on so many bad dates that I prefer to be with my dogs! Normally, my attitude is a little more “chipper”, but after yet one more bad date last night (too cheap to buy the dinner he promised), I am likely drawing closer to “done”!
I’ve worked hard to dig through my emotional clutter to become emotionally available. I used to date EUs because they masked my own unavailability.
Now that I have reasonably sound self esteem, I’ve become a vanilla who’ll eventually be seeking another vanilla.
I don’t crave the excitement and drama the nutters I used to date always brought with them, which always triggered my own.
I want a plesant, funny companion who thinks sex equals monogamy. I don’t want to have to decipher what they are saying, or compare what they say to what they do, like a detective eyeing a supect.
Now I have boundaries that dictate: No married or committed women, no habitual liars, no golddiggers, and no diagnosed, untreated psychatric disorders.
Vanilla may seem bland, but it is the favorite ice cream flavor according to many polls.
Here are the ice cream flavors I used to love and chase after:
Rocky Road
Nutty Buddy
Crazy Cashew
Fruitcake
Banana Split (personality)
and my favorite,
Cheating Whore Chocolate Swirl
I’ll have vanilla, please.
Hi Karen, I’m with you!
I dated a ship captain for three years who was powerful, dashing, and hot hot hot. For three years I enjoyed traveling around the world with him, dancing, hearing music, drinking wine, and enjoying hot sex. But…he was bad for me in so many ways. He was a very heavy drinker, a gambler, and visited strip clubs all the time. He had a horrible mean temper. He yelled at me and was verbally abusive if he did not get his way. For three years, when I wasn’t on top of the world, I was crying, begging him to be nice, begging him to respect me, and finally I had to take medicine for a stress-induced heart condition. My family, my job, and my health, it all suffered.
After finding this website I finally found the courage to break free from him! Thank you! And, even though it has been hard, I have been NC for some time. I have gone through counseling, have read a lot of relationship books, and am making peace with my past and my future and myself.
A couple of months ago, I met a man who is very different. He is a welder, a homebody, and he prefers hunting and fishing to travel. He is the kindest man I have ever met. He adores me. He is respectful to me. I find that I am learning to be ok with this kind of treatment. My feelings for him are growing stronger as we spend more time together. It wasn’t the hot “insta-attraction” I had with Captain Asshole, but this man makes me a better, happier, and more loving person. I’m going to keep him.
Seriously? I do not like crying my eyes out day after day. I do not like taking tranquilizers. I do not like lying to my friends about how great my life is. The sexy bad boy is just not worth it.
Oregon girl
You put a huge smile on my face today reading your post.
All the best with your new guy. Hugs
Oregon girl,
Good for you!! There is nothing like a normal healthy relationship with a person who you don’t have to teach them how to be a normal human being! Good Luck!!
Karen – you just made me laugh out loud for real. Cheating Whore Chocolate Swirl. YES! haha 😉 Thanks for that.
Karen, Well put!
This is so on the money for me at the moment. Actually met someone yesterday who I had so much intrigue and a bit of a little push and pull game with.
Met him via work, knew he was my “type ” in terms of physicality, what he talked about, his creativity and energy. Really had my guard up, kept it all thoroughly professional, yet today so in my head.
Having lived in Spinster village for the past year, and done so much inner work, now I have a challenge on my hands. I am only another four days on the project, so atleast it’s not four months, what alot of work I still need to do. Thanks Natalie x
Great post NML!
I’ve been dating an emotionally unavailable guy for a little over 2 years. He is 27 and I am 23. He is very good looking, has a great education, and a great job…and I struggle to let him go because he looks so good on paper. However, he treats me horribly with both physical and emotional abuse. I am still at the point where I overanalyze everything he says and does in my head. However I am loving your posts and am working on putting the no contact rule into practice.
Jackie,
Honey, this sounds awful! Guys who look good on paper are nothing! You are looking for a relationship, not an employee.
You need to step back and figure out who he is. People lie often enough on their resume and you need to conduct a thorough analysis of him as a person. Good luck!
Jackie, don’t use ‘no contact’ as a way to make him behave. Go No Contact because you are DONE with him and his subtly abusive ways. Go No Contact because it is OVER.
It’s not going to get better with him.
Jackie, if the fundamentals are missing it doesn’t matter what other attributes this guy may have. “He treats me horribly with both physical and emotional abuse”. It’s good that you recognize his behaviour for what it is. Take the next step and remove him from your life. Time is precious, don’t waste any more of it on someone who isn’t worthy.
Jackie,
One of my motto’s I tell woman friends of mine is “Don’t get blinded by the fineness”!! Don’t assume because someone is good looking or successful that equals suitable partner. I have found that when you look beyond the superficial and if this person has a horrible disposition, they start to look really ugly on the outside. If you are being real with yourself. If you keep fantasizing about who you think they are you will keep getting sucked back into the drama. The fact that he is abusive is the ONLY reason you need to leave him alone.
I wish I could ‘star’ or ‘like’ so many of these comments! I met a really goodlooking guy this past weekend, and we have several interests in common, but I know that only his behavior, which I need to see in different situations, will determine his true attractiveness. Taking my time getting to know someone has never yet been something I regretted. If they try to steamroll over the need to take things slowly, that’s a flushable offense in my book.
So far, it’s not looking too promising, unfortunately, but such is life.
Thank you so much ladies. Feels nice to have a support system
I do hope to find a normal boyfriend some day, seems that he just doesn’t exist though. I have spent the last 7 months rediscovering me…its been a great journey 🙂 I recently met a guy I thought was a decent person, but he fast-forwarded big time…after the second date (a picnic in the park, very public and no hanky panky) he said we should get married, and he wasn’t joking. I may be all that but damn, I got tired of telling him to put the brakes on, let things happen naturally…he kept trying to push so I pushed him to the curb. The first date was nice, and he got a little clingy, so I postponed the second date for a week later…he texted me daily, nothing too serious, but always asking at least once a day about how I felt about him…and when I finally did sit down alone with my thoughts, I decided that this was not a relationship I want to pursue and told him so, in person after the second date and the whole marriage proposal and suggestion that he was going to get me a ring and everything. Ugh. I kept asking him to slow down, how could he be so sure, we didn’t even really know each other yet. Its like I went from one extreme to another…I need to find that middle ground.
I even second guessed myself, I wasn’t sure that trusting my gut on this was a good thing, and thats why I agreed to the second date, only to confirm that yep, I am truly not comfortable at all here, it isn’t that he was just making himself so available and I wasn’t used to that, it was more of him not respecting my boundaries when I clearly stated them.
Dove, two things: 1) Good for you! 2) Run, girl, Run! He has serial killer ways! ”Scripted” romance – makes me nervous – picnic, flowers, violins on the first or second date – makes me wanna say “You don’t know anything about me. How do you know I even like flowers, or eating outdoors??? You have not tried to get to know me, you are casting me in “girlfriend” role, and when I disappoint, you feel you are justified in being angry. As if all women like the same things and I’m a &itch for not wanting you.”
Actually saw this happen on a “Dates from Hell” forensic TV program….the girl finally acquiesced after years of saying no, the guy did the scripted picnic date, she was polite but declined a second date at the end of the picnic date – he ran over her with his car, twice.
Dove, I’m sorry for him because I seriously think he’s got some kind of mental or emotional disability. You need to steer clear of him. He needs more help than you can give.
So on point.
I met a guy who seemed the complete opposite of the physically and emotionally abusive AC and went after him so hard, that I failed to notice he was EU. Every thing he did right, meant I forgot everything he did wrong, which was unhealthy.
Now I’m learning to step back and observe more. I recently met another man who is very nice, and treats me well, but we do not connect on an emotional level and I am tempting myself not to settle. I need to get the love I deserve.
JustHer,
To get the love you deserve, look within. Once you truly can love yourself, everything looks so much different, better, you see some amazing things all around and specially in the little things. I still have days where I feel very lonely but then I do something that makes me happy, take myself out, enjoy a moment in the sun. Its not just about making yourself happy though, its truly understanding and accepting yourself for who you are when all the walls are down, and loving you still. Once you have that, then the issue of ‘settling’ becomes moot.
Dove,
Thank you, you are absolutely right. It just seems that in the last two years, I am two years closer to missing the last train and in all honesty, my desire to be loved overrides rationality many times.
I still have some way to go to accepting myself though, but I hope that every day I am getting a little closer to it.
Thank you Dove, I needed this 🙂
@louise: exactly! I am feeling like people expect me to take anything that looks good on paper!
It was kind of laughable: my friend told me that I should be happy with this guy, because he is not a self-involved narcissist like the last two guys who asked me out ( that I ran screaming from lol).
Seriously? I should date him because he is not a narcissist? “He is not a serial killer either so I suppose… I mean why not?” was the response that I should have said but I did not think of it lol.
I’ve spent two years healing and working on myself and I have truly made so much progress. But, no one else has come along in my life that even shows an interest in me. I’m so disheartened. I wonder if it will never happen.
Heather, I cannot promise you that you will ever find some kind of perfect match. It may or may not happen.
But I will pass this on. I found it very helpful to do the following intellectual exercise: “A mysterious being from the future appeared to me today, and told me that I will be single for the rest of my life. Guaranteed. Non-negotiable.”
Now: Watch your inner reactions to this, observing from the sidelines.
One reaction is ‘Hell, I’ll screw everyone then’, and this tells you that you are still a commitmentphobe who wants transient but rather dubious fun. This path won’t make you happy.
Another reaction is: OK – so how am I going to live my life from now on?
This is more helpful.
*What choices will I make?
* How will I behave towards the significant other people in my life, as well as the strangers?
* Where will I live?
* What will I do for a living?
* What makes me happy and is fun?
* What is my passion?
* Will I try to live in a way that improves and blesses my life and the life of others around me, or will I turn into a selfish whining bitch that’s avoided by everyone?
By testing yourself in this way, you will find the weak spots, and the places that still need more work and healing. It’s about getting to know yourself properly – without reference to ‘the Man’ who may or may not even exist – maybe for the first time in your life.
PS – The only other thing, Heather, is maybe not to think of doing this work on yourself as some kind of contractual relationship, eg. “if I do the work, then hey presto! Magic Man appears!”
This isn’t real, although it’s a common enough mistake.
Do it for you. But first, you have to find out who YOU is.
Great reply, Ethelreda.
I´m at this point myself, and after years of suffering because I´m not in the perfect relationship I sometimes realise that I haven´t thought about my single-dom in months. I´m just too preoccupied with my own life, and with all the things I´m doing now that I never would´ve thought doing when I was worrying about securing a mate.
On the other hand, I´ve noticed a large part of my worries were motivated by keeping up with a very negative set of girlfriends I had. They are the “friends” who measure their own success in life by comparing themselves with how well others are doing. Having a partner who looks good on paper (but who knows what goes on behind closed doors!) is a large part of this success. I´ve found that when I began reading BR some years ago, these friendships slowly faded away. I think I had largely imposed the task of being in a relationship on myself because it would “look good”, not because there was someone I really wanted to share my life with.
Oh man, I know what you mean. And it’s funny how people treat you differently when you’re partnered.
Certain people do treat you better – at least I found that. And you know what? I got rid of those people as quickly as I could. They are no longer part of my life, and I am glad, because I now have friends who love me the way I am. Almost none of them are single themselves, but they all love me and support me.
The negative girlfriends that I have to be careful of now are the married ones who are JEALOUS of my singleness and happiness! These are the ones who pitied me 20 years ago and said, ‘Never mind – it will be your turn next’ when they got married, only whoops, didn’t happen … And now it seems that marriage turned out to be the beginning of their lives with someone who had faults and flaws, rather than the glorious end point of roses, roses, all the way, and they aren’t really all that happy about it any more.
Sometimes I wonder the same thing, but then I recall the adage, “A watched pot never boils.” I figure if God wants that for me, then I will have it. Or not. I am happy and busy and I’ve stopped wondering as much.
Heather, I would be lying if I said I didn’t wonder the same thing, and I am sure that many of the ladies on this site would agree with me.
I am starting to believe that if we wait for Prince Charming to come and sweep us off our feet, it is likely that we’ll be waiting a very long time, and during the wait, we are neglecting our own desires.
I recently got back in contact with the AC to be friends (2 years post split). He told me he is very happy with and in love with another woman and yet, a few hours later, professes his love with me and then tells me he will leave her if I come back. He then said that I had already wasted two years, did I want to waste more?
But, it made me realise that no. I hadn’t wasted two years. It is in these years that I grew the most and experienced the most. It was when I was with him, and then when I was waiting for him, that I wasted my life and time.
I’m basically just using a long-winded route to saying that the ‘waiting’ is what prevents us from truly discovering ourselves and opening ourselves up. Realise that you are NOT in limbo, but you’re strong enough to be alone and independent and HAPPY.
Make a list of your life dreams and go after them! They just might lead you to your next man. If they don’t, then wow, you are still chasing your dreams and that will make you so much happier! Last summer I traveled to Paris to take a class at the Sorbonne. This summer I am taking a class at Oxford. In the spring I went charter fishing in Alaska. Not all dreams have to be this big. I am sewing my own skirts. I got a pressure canner and am learning to can. I enjoy clam digging. I read great books. I volunteer in my community. Make that list and follow it! Your life will be so much richer as a result!!
Heather – there’s a man out there for you, I really do believe this! Just be sure that when he arrives, you’re not dismissive of him because he does not look, sound, behave the way you might have envisioned. Keep an open mind and be willing to form a friendship first, cos it’s not always the most obvious person who you may end up with.
I spent most of my 20’s entertaining EU men, narcissists, future fakers, liars, cheats, married men – the works! By age 26 my self-esteem was shot to pieces and I didn’t trust that I was capable of meeting “nice” men as my decision making skills were clearly sh*t. (No to mention, all the nice guys I met I thought were inherently unattractive!)
After a year of suffering a mysterious illness and eventually being diagnosed with systemic lupus, I had to slow things down in order for me to get well and learn to cope with my new life. I simply wasn’t well enough for the endless nights of partying, casual drug use, random hook-ups and walks of shame at 7am. With lupus, I had gotten fat, was always in pain/tired, my hair would fall out in clumps, I suffered depression/anxiety and what little confidence I had – vanished.
After 4 years – by which point my lupus was under control, my hair had mostly grown back, my excess weight had gone, my depression/anxiety much improved and I turned 30 and felt really good about myself – I decided to start casually dating, which is how I met my sweet-natured, caring, thoughtful, funny, cute and nerdy boyfriend. The strange thing is, I wasn’t expecting a relationship when I started dating, I went into it with no expectations, just a desire to expand my circle and meet some interesting people.
Although he’s not the man I would’ve chosen 4-5 years ago, I have learned enough from my past to know that I don’t want to repeat it again. I’ve matured and love myself enough to appreciate a GOOD thing when I see/feel it. My man never makes me feel insecure or bad about myself and everything has been drama-free so far (something I found deeply unsettling at first as I wasn’t used to things running smoothly in that department). He’s not a thug or ladies’ man, and he doesn’t have the kind of swagger that makes women swoon in passing, but I sincerely wouldn’t trade him for anyone or anything.
Keep the faith… It’ll happen when you least expect it.
Rachel, I’m really happy for you that you’ve found someone great! I hope it lasts and lasts and really fulfils all your hopes and dreams, for both of you.
Having said that, just because it happened to you doesn’t mean that it will happen to any of us …
I know it’s comforting for those of us who are single to think, ‘Hey, it happened to HER, so maybe me, too’, but the fact is that it may also not happen.
Me, I have stepped out of this whole loop and have put pairing-off at the bottom of my list of priorities, because I found I was thinking like Heather – “Here I am, doing the work, so where is the Reward? Where is the Man I Was Promised By Them Nice Ladies on BaggageReclaim?”
None of us is really promised anything, and I have found it best to keep it as real as possible. It’s been really helpful and has reduced my stress levels and selfpity parties by about 1000%.
Oregon Girl, you are on the right track, totally, and I am with you all the way.
This site has been a GODSEND. It’s so nice to see I’m not crazy. My relationship with a Future-Faking, Fast-forwarding, Miss Unavailable Chopper threw me for a loop and I went from treading in stress at the boundary line to going over the edge into a funk for almost two months. We’d known each other as friendly acquaintances for a while before deciding to date and, at first, things were hot in the bedroom and out of it. Both having been divorced, we decided after a couple of months we wanted to grow the relationship and discussed our shared values and beliefs with promises to alert each other if anything about those ever changed.
But there were some red flags. She had a history of bailing when things got tough and of being impulsive. Her marriage was a disaster she admitted complicity to destroying. She ran off to live in a foreign for years and subsisted off many flings and dalliances but had determined she wanted to “put down some roots” and saw me as “someone who matched her ‘husband’ list who happens to be good-looking, too.” I wasn’t comfortable with all the future talk and suggested we slow down and try actually dating first. The first incident occurred when she threw a temper tantrum after she made a nonsense comment and I joked about it being because she was on her period, nothing mean-spirited and the kind of joke I’d often cracked when we were just friends.
Now, I don’t mean she snapped at me, I mean she threw a TEMPER TANTRUM like a fourteen year old — took me outside of my friend’s house and screamed at me and stomped her feet, put her finger in my face, while I wondered who the hell this person was and why she thought she could talk to me that way? It was unbelievable because she is thirty years old. Later she apologized and I passed it off as anomaly even though she had done what I now realize is crazy-making. Having already known me, she knew some of my history (my ex-wife is a diagnosed sociopath. Yeah, I pick winners) and that article on Choppers was dead on – she threw that experience in my face during the relationship and used it to deflect shady behavior as my calling a red flag due to not being over what my ex wife had done.
It continued from there. She’d blow hot for a few weeks and then admittedly withhold affection to force deeper time commitment (“I don’t want this to just be a weekend relationship!”) even though I had and have a pretty active lifestyle and tend to have plans every night of the week with friends and social groups. Next, she did it again a few weeks later after I made a surprise Valentine’s Day dinner for two by candlelight because she wanted to say I love you, but “I don’t say it first!” I knew it was a red flag but wrote it off because…she was withholding sex, and I wanted the sex. I told her I didn’t play games (plus I wasn’t there yet, we hadn’t even been together three months, and I won’t say something like that if I don’t mean it.) She continued this dance for two more weeks but blew hotter and used her feminine wiles on me, and I fell for her so I said it.
From there she started cooling off. She was always saying how much she loved me and talking the future, but I noticed her behavior was off and the sex was quickly vanishing. Our relationship wasn’t built on sex but I did know that as a red flag. So I asked about it, to see if there was something going on in her life I could maybe help with. She EXPLODED and it was like that Chopper article again. I started with intending to offer to help with her stress and then didn’t know what the hell was going on. This happened several times over the next month and she started ignoring me when we would hang with groups of friends on weekends (“But I go home with you afterward!”) and I mean like, I may as well not have been there. The sex became almost non-existent. She always had an excuse (“It takes too long!” because I like foreplay and buildup. So I quit that. “It’s not long enough! I want foreplay and buildup!” Couldn’t win there. She kept turning down advances “It’s too late/too early/my stomach hurts/I’m tired/I have a headache/why don’t you just ask” so I started asking ahead of time like she said and then it’s “you never make any moves” and I’m left bewildered and scratching my head.)
So I start backing off and then she finally makes a big confession about some outside the relationship stress. I offer to help, she blows hot, and one morning she is talking about if we get married, what kind of dog she wants to get. By afternoon I am being berated about tons of Old Sh*t (she had nothing new to complain about. I made some mistakes challenging her distant behavior, which she crazy-made me on so I doubted myself and backed off, but not many later on I guess) and she declares she will never EVER give up any of her independence to anyone, that she will be single forever, and she can’t imagine being with one person the rest of her life or ever living with anyone, she is going to be selfish and that’s just how it is. She will jump from fling to fling and never commit, whoever gets hurt be damned as it’ll be their fault for getting attached to her.
After this she calls back and says she spoke out of turn. What followed was two weeks of Hell as I tried to figure out how and why she had turned. Finally we broke up (her idea, but I had her stuff packed. I was ready for her to go.) Then she strung it out another 17 days, worried about how it’d look if we didn’t become “friends” right away while leaving the door open for us to get back together. I told her I wasn’t interested in reconnecting unless it was for a relationship. She ignored this and pushed her own agenda, going from me first contacting her afterward to see if there was any hope to her being the pursuer until I told her (because we share a peer group and she’s tough to avoid) I wanted no contact, which I have stuck with. She has already tried to violate this using the loopholes I left behind – that it’s ok to sit with me at church (She doesn’t know I planned to go to a different church for five weeks because I knew she would do this; saw her racing into my usual place as I passed by on the way to service elsewhere) and that I can’t keep her from our social group’s events.
Luckily my friends are awesome and she isn’t exactly Miss Popularity. But the whole thing blew my mind until I found this site. I wanted to share what happened to me. She definitely only seemed more interested when she thought she might lose me or wanted something. Ultimately she’s said she realized she is emotionally unavailable and decided marriage and family aren’t for her. I go from missing her to feeling like I dodged a major bullet. From using temper tantrums and crocodile tears to get her way, to being cold and closed off (that is how my family described her), to her words often not matching her actions (she acted like phone calls were the Devil and doing what most people consider relationship basics were a HUGE deal.) Looking back I see she didn’t really do much except get treated like a princess while occasionally, and with growing infrequency, giving sex. I did all the cooking, planning, she just laid around my house on weekends watching TV or we laid around her place while she complained with spiteful nastiness about every one of our friends at length. The last month and a half, most of our dates consisted of this. She didn’t bother asking me how I was doing for over a month. At the end, and after the break up, every conversation was her, her, her, all about her all the time. Even during our last conversation, I could SEE it – her hugely inflated ego. Once I realized she really thought I would accept the crumbs she was offering, I was like, okay, I did my due diligence here and stayed true to myself to see if that future might still be on offer. I see that it isn’t. I have no interest in being just friends. I’m done.
Is it bad that I laughed inside the first time I saw her during NC and, while I politely said hi, went about my business of hanging out with my friends and she looked devastated at receiving none of my attention the one time I bothered to glance in her direction?
One more time – thank God for this site and the books. Even though they are geared toward women, they have made me break down and examine myself, find my pattern. I know I can do better than someone like this, and it starts with fixing myself.
Forgot to mention several things – we were laying around because she canceled the dates and asked to lay around.
She often asked why the urgency for intimacy, because “We have the rest of our lives for that!”
And during one of our last chats while I couldn’t figure out why she was still talking to me after the breakup (thought maybe she wanted to get back together and didn’t realize it, ha ha) she actually spent 40 minutes arguing with me about why it’s okay to be rude, inconsiderate, and ungrateful because she deserves “the benefit of the doubt” which I didn’t bother to explain is something not given, but earned, and she had earned no credibility to expect such a thing.
This girl is addicted to drama. She wants to stir the pot or she ain’t happy. You are so much better off without her.
BurnedbyaMissUnavailable – I got exhausted just reading your story. I am very glad you got out. I am sure she is trying to find her next victim so she doesn’t have to deal with herself. I actually got irritated at some of the things she did. Withholding sex…chopping you down, temper tantrums. She has major issues. And relationships are 100/100 … she should have been participating in cooking, planning etc instead of just laying around watching tv. In some ways that is a good analogy – you were action based in the relationship while she just laid around in her own world and not participating. Definitely shoes her emotional unavailability.
Thanks. The hard part is staying away from her. Intellectually I agree with the comments, and that’s just scratching the surface. I wrote out negative traits and actions and it spanned four pages typed. I don’t know how I could still WANT someone like that, which led me here, which led me to understanding what I was dealing with, which led me to the fact that I ALLOWED all of that to happen. I could’ve stopped it at any time by walking away, which I finally did when she was dangling carrots of hope to keep me as a fallback guy (no wonder she is “friends” with all of her exes, as she claims, and dalliances). Who knows what she’ll do. Only problem is I end up seeing her once a week. I’m in week 2 of no contact; she had kept talking to me as much as in the relationship or more, so it’s really only been a week and a half without her around and I know I need to give myself time to process my feelings about everything. Appreciate the input, validation of a different sort 🙂 Thank you.
Hopefully me cutting her off doesn’t turn her on. I would definitely say I had to think about it now (and probably a no, but I’d keep that to myself) instead of the automatic yes she would’ve gotten last week, so that’s progress of a sort. I won’t be anybody’s fallback option or “happy clapper friend,” because she did badly emotionally mistreat me, especially at the end. Best to keep her at a distance, I think.
Burned,
Thanks for sharing your story. It taught me a lot. Much to my dismay, last year my cousin in his early 30s got played like a fiddle by his gf, played to the point of being cheated on. Unless someone has a warped sense of judgment, most people recognize that he is a gem. Because of the breakup, he had to confront the fact that he had been *too* giving & forgiving for his own good. Based on what I had observed & what he said about his gf after their break-up, she qualified as a commitment-phobe & chopper like your ex. To keep up appearances, she extended a hand of friendship to him after the break up & tried to set him up as a fallback option. I’ll say to you what I said to him: please do yourself a favor & stay away from Ms. Chopper. Given what she said & did, you actually dodged a torpedo, not a bullet. No one is going to give you a standing ovation for befriending a self-propelled explosive.
You identified plenty of red flags for ceasing contact with her. The things you described reveal that she doesn’t give a hoot about the impact of her actions on you, no matter how warmly & patiently she was treated. Her communication & conflict-resolution skills show that she is in fact not ready for a mature relationship since she routinely bottled up her thoughts and lashed out by blaming & shaming you. It’s a big step in the right direction deciding not to grant her further *permission* to hone such skills on your time. No matter how “devastated” she looks, she’s no damsel-in-distress in need of rescue from Dracula. In fact she seems to be akin to the fanged fellow: exuding charm as a friend, drawing blood from one supply after another, escaping from one place to the next, subsisting on others en route, exploding in fits of rage in private, but donning a mask of cordiality in public. She has survived a slew of flings. Most likely, she’ll land on her feet after new break-ups. Befriending such folk sends the message that whatever went wrong in the relationship wasn’t that awful after all. Befriending them comes at the cost of betraying oneself. It depends on pretending that things didn’t hurt us as much as they did & risks exposing ourselves to further harm. Glad to see you’re choosing not to participate in such pretense.
Instead of breaking her pattern of being in limited relationships, Ms. Chopper likes to stay in her comfort zone in the name of faux independence. If she prefers to be an enfant terrible rather than an emotionally available adult, that is her choice but not your brunt to bear. Celebrate *freeing* yourself from tantrums, put downs, push-pull games, and cold-shoulder treatments! No amount of hot sex at the outset of dating compensates for such damaging dynamics. For empathy-deficient EUs like her, being an iconoclast is more important than being intimate with someone in a committed relationship. Being a rebel without a cause, she is free to pursue her grand mission in life in which “she is going to be selfish … jump from fling to fling and never commit”. On full volume, replay this line in your mind in case you feel tempted to idealize her or give her undue attention. Her admission that she takes *zero* responsibility for her actions is chilling: “whoever gets hurt be damned as it’ll be their fault for getting attached to her”. Dating someone of this sort is tantamount to shooting oneself in the foot. If I understand correctly, six months have gone trying to improve your relationship with her to no avail. “Best to keep her at a distance,” as you say, even if temporarily it’s difficult to stay away from her.
One technique I used to disengage emotionally from the EUM involved thinking of him as Jabba the Hutt. The sheer ugliness of Jabba made it easier for me to stop missing the ex for his superficial qualities: his charm, his stunning physique, his ability to satisfy me in bed. Instead, I saw Jabba doing the hurtful things that the ex did – and this helped me move forward. For example, I imagined Jabba disappearing for ten days. Instead of hoping to hear from him, I felt a sense of joy & relief that he left me! I think many EUs & assclowns have Jabba-like qualities if not his grotesque looks. Jabba is insatiable: you & others in his harem can give endlessly but it’ll never be enough to feed his enormous ego. Jabba is ungrateful: he applies a *use-&-throw policy* even to his most devoted subjects & discards them if they don’t keep pandering to his whims. Jabba is lazy: you’ll receive little help or encouragement from him although he’ll take a lot from you sitting on his bum. Jabba is sadistic: he likes to dominate & humiliate others including the slave-girls he keeps chained to his dais. Dare I say, Ms. Chopper made me think of Jabba. Like him, she is a chopper & *taker*. Even if she didn’t take from you all the time, as months rolled on she didn’t mind *taking more for less* & didn’t mind making you beg for the little that she gave. I’m sorry you had this experience.
Like you, I like to treat people generously & kindly but I no longer believe in limitless giving after the lessons I learned in the wake of the EUM. I believe in being nice – and I’m attracted to nice people – but if someone is not reciprocating my care or taking advantage of me, I consciously roll back my interest & effort. This feels great. If I keep giving – and receive little or nothing in return – then I am creating a lop-sided rather than a balanced relationship. Basically, I now feed off one loaf and earmark a second loaf for others. Unlike the past, I no longer feel bad about holding onto slices of the second loaf. Even if there may be a surplus of something it doesn’t have to be squandered. It can be saved for someone deserving of it in the future. Or invested in someone deserving of it in the present. Either way, giving others *too many chances & too much time to show their care & interest* is forbidden in my books. If I keep forgiving & giving to people in the absence of adequate reciprocation on their part, then I am responsible for depleting my own resources. Here are two quotes on this subject that I like: “Givers need to set limits because takers rarely do” & “Even the nicest people have their limits”. In case these thoughts on giving may be of some use to you, I thought I’ll share them. It’s great that you’re taking some time to process your feelings – and I hope you don’t get caught up in blaming yourself for “allowing” certain things to happen. In the thick of it, articulating, maintaining, and reinforcing our boundaries is not always easy.
In future, I hope you find someone capable of appreciating the ways in which you show care & respect. Ultimately, none of us have any control over how others might perceive our qualities & efforts. So we could give the same thing to different people: Person One could feel disappointed or neglected. Person Two could feel overwhelmed or suffocated. Person Three could feel loved & excited to reciprocate our gesture of care. In all scenarios, people may or may not verbally communicate to us what they actually feel or need. They could be a mystery to themselves. They could expect us to read their minds or make assumptions about their behavior like ethologists studying bonobos. They could misrepresent themselves, consciously or unconsciously. They could be captious & capricious – and thus impossible to please. So, at the end of the day, all one can do is give, be honest about what one is receiving in return, remember to give to oneself a lot of care & respect – and above all, never hustle for someone throwing us crumbs.
That was very insightful, Nigella. I will be storing your advice to remind myself. I think I’ll pick an evil female character to think of her as.
I am sick of dealing with her. She found out where I’d be this weekend and ambushed me there with a surprise appearance. She seemed expectant that I would be warming up to her desired “friendship.” She was clearly not happy with the crumbs I handed out (taste of her own medicine, ha ha) I waved even though she was three feet away and did not speak to her. I was annoyed because we had a deal with NC – she agreed to give me space and not show up like that. No surprise she isn’t respecting boundaries but she is getting the message through my actions – and no words – that the old rules no longer apply and she is cut off. No danger of a temper tantrum when there are people around and she’s too stubborn to break NC via text, email, or phone. She’s very image conscious with no understanding of how her often weird behavior makes her appear rude and cold.
I realize she can only affect me as long as I let her but I’m in the angry phase/wtf-was-I-thinking phase as suspected. I’m angry with myself for not taking action. I saw it all at the time, had my reservations, and decided to trust her instead of reading her actions. I’d never seen an adult throw tantrums like this. Should’ve bailed when my gut was screaming at me “It’s happening again! You’re being manipulated!”
I know why she picked me. Like your cousin – and some have told me this since the breakup – I am generally considered a gem. I am nick-named “tall, dark and handsome” in my peer group and I’m the person who brings people together, always can break the tension in a room, and whom others feel comfortable coming to for help and advice without fear of judgment. I have a lot of friends and the mutual ones completely understand that I want nothing to do with her. They have been totally supportive and I didn’t even have to tell them the story (though my best friend knows).
I wish you and your cousin well. And I will be more careful in the future on dealing with the future faking, fast-forwarding and going on a BS diet. After all, I’m pretty sure the ex only showed up dolled up (she is usually dressed like a slob) because she found out I’ve been spending time with a pretty female someone else (I am pretty sure she Facebook-stalks through mutual friends since I de-friended her there.)
I am currently emotionally unavailable so I won’t be starting any relationships until I work through this, but the ex doesn’t know that. It’s nice to have quality women as friends who I enjoy spending time with (they know we are just friends, I don’t mislead.) They keep me aware that most women are not like my ex. And who knows? Maybe down the road I’ll end up with one of them. You never can tell.
Thanks again 🙂
I’ll just start calling her Dracula in my head. Makes me laugh. Great analogy with her lifestyle
And…someone is boundary busting again. Trying to figure me out (and probably where all this rebuilt backbone she thought she’d torn down is coming from. Thanks, BR!) Sent a novel of a text today because I’m not behaving as expected since I have been cold and distant when she sees me and I have not broken NC. Out of control. Doesn’t like it. Doesn’t know what to do with it. Indirectly inquired about this “let’s be friends” business.
I am aware this isn’t because she gives a hoot about me, she is thinking of herself and her image. I didn’t see a “hi, how are you” in there, for certain. I will not respond to this lazy communication any time soon, if at all. If it’s really important to her, she’ll pick up the phone and leave a voicemail when I don’t answer. I won’t be surprised if I get a petulant follow-up text instead. Of course, the next time she expects she’ll see me, I’ll be treating myself to a massage and a movie and skipping that particular event lol
Heather
Take your time dear, do not panic, there will be someone who will come along, just be patient or else panic attack will take you back to where you were before, and I do not want to see that happening.
I believe that once you truly understand that you deserve to treated with respect and love it will happen. You will never get everything in a person, but I can tell you if you put more emphasis on the physical part and ignore the emotional part you will be disappointed.
I believe a relationship is more likely to survive if you have a strong emotional bond versus a strong physical connection. My belief is you can teach a person how to be a better lover or dress better, but you cannot teach a person how to a good human being. My husband is not the greatest lover I’ve had, but he is by far the best man I have ever been with. If I only focused on the physical part and ignored my emotional needs, I probably would be in a bad relationship right know.
Thanks, Stephanie, that´s very enlightening. I realised I´ve always focused on the physical connection. You´ve given me a lot to think about!
I have been involved in a relationship for over 1 year now. Intellectually, I know I need to end it. Emotionally, I have been unable to let go. I am going for counselling because of it. There were 14 deaths in my family in the past 2 years, so originallyI thought maybe I was seeing breaking up with him as another loss. I know low self esteem has something to do with it & not loving myself enough. Now I wonder if it may be something even deeper that I haven’t discovered about myself as of yet. I also believe a large part of it is that I haven’t found anyone decent to replace him. If I did, I think I would be long gone. I feel angry & resentful towards him. I have given 300% of my Precious time & energy for him & to no avail. I don’t feel appreciated by him at all. Nothing I ever do is good enough for him. He always complains & puts conditions on what I need to do for him in order to receive his approval,& even once I meet his conditions & then some, I am never good enough for him & whatever I do for him is never enough proof that I respect & care about him. I am emotionally drained.
Sweet Canuck,
What a difficult time you are going through with the loss of 14 family members in the last 2 years, no wonder you are emotionally drained. I can’t even imagine how that must have felt for you.
Add to that a controlling assclown and it’s no wonder you are in counselling.
The assclown is one issue you can deal with.
It’s like ripping off that sticking plaster, it hurts like hell for a little while and then the pain goes away.
Going No Contact is the only way forward for you to get some distance and perspective between you and this horrible man. Cut.Him.Off. Permanently.
It is difficult at first as this nasty controlling abusive man has been part of your life for the past year and you have got used to being treated so badly, it’s like he has you trained to accept whatever abuse he dishes out and if you don’t like it he just heaps more on you to keep you in line. Does that sound familiar? Know this, the situation won’t get better with this man, it will get worse the longer you stay around, guaranteed!
The positive side of NC and flushing this man is you will get yourself back, every day you will have peace of mind, your boundaries will be intact, you won’t be abused and used, your self esteem will rise and you will realise what a sad damaged unhappy little man he is who will never be able to have a normal happy relationship with any woman.
Don’t worry about another guy right now, that won’t solve anything until you get yourself right first or it will be like out of the frying pan and straight into the fire.
You CAN do it, just take the first step to getting YOU back.
All the best dear girl, let’s know how you go.
if ever there was proof of the damage that low self esteem can do to you then your last line is it. Good luck sweet canuck. I hope that therapy brings you the person from underneath your shell that you really are and beautiful things happen to you from there on. Follow your ‘intellect’ for now and get the hell out or get crushed. If you are feeling emotionally drained – you are in an abusive situation and you will never be able to control it – no matter what you learn at therapy about yourself. The problem is not you being not good enough to achieve his ‘high’ standards – its your control over walking away from trouble and walking towards truely loving behaviour = ie self esteem.
After making great strides with no contact, I had some insecurities appear and reached out to him. BIG mistake. Albeit I didn’t sleep with him, I did ask to stay the night Our whole relationship (if you want to call it that) over 4+ years was based on sex. I wrote him a couple emails in which he responded by humiliating me again by stating that he was weary of words. So I am back to step one. And I don’t know how to get over the humiliation. Part of me worries that he thinks I am crazy, when in reality my craziness was prompted by his actions. How do you get to the point where you can forgive yourself?
Rewind, it was just a small relapse. Let some days pass – and your feelings of shame will subside.
rewind,
I did the same think about a week ago, where I got back in touch with the AC (2 years post NC) and we ended up sleeping next to each other (no sexual contact). But he has a gf now. I felt stupid and guilty at allowing it to happen.
I will not do it again.
You have not humiliated yourself and he has no power to do so. You should try to think about the situation as you taking the initiative to take control of what happens. You sucked it and saw. It failed. You learnt. You also didn’t have sex with him – that in itself is a huge plus!
Turn the situation on its head and you’re a winner in this.
Rewind, you’re human and we all make mistakes so there is nothing to beat yourself up over.
Sometimes it takes a while to get free of these AC’s. You’re not alone in reaching out to an AC, hoping he may have changed, I’m not sure what we expect from someone who we know is incapable of treating us well. Yep, we keep ignoring the historical data, it’s not a one off or an anomaly.
I know I tried many times with the AC to see if he would turn into a decent guy before the light finally went on and I realised it was a total waste of my time and effort, then I flushed hard.
Just ignore anything he said in the emails he sent you, nothing he said would be true, he’s just ranting and his ego is smarting because you dumped him first and went NC for a very good reason.
It’s nothing more than PAYBACK on his part.
Moved on dear girl, there’s nothing more there for you.
Hi, Stephanie. I hope you aren’t sacrificing your sexual pleasure for the sake of a stable “good” man. I hear people say “sex isn’t the most important thing”….and while I agree it is not the cornerstone, I never understood why fair-to-middlin sex is so acceptable in one’s primary relationship. I think VERY satisfying sex should be a necessary requirement, along with all the other things you feel you want in a mate. If you aren’t getting the good stuff from your primary relationship—–?—-where are you supposed to go for it??
Bottom Line – every time HE climaxes, YOU should climax too…that’s how I roll. I do not stay with men who do not get me “there”…and I do have sex pretty early on because I do not want to waste my time getting emotionally attached to someone who does not do me right. I am giving and imaginative and eager to please, and the man for me has to be the same way. And I do reach it every time with any man with whom I have been in a relationship. Some have been mindblowing while others have been just OK. I have never faked it in my life, though I have had unsatisfying partners…and those guys were kicked to the curb very early because that is a deal breaker. I’ve never successfully “taught” a man to get better. They do what they do…..and if imagination ain’t there it can’t be taught.
From what I see, unsatisfying sex eventually makes a woman bitter, resentful – especially if HE gets there every time, depressed, fat. Don’t understand why any woman settles for bad sex. Speak up ladies. Ask for what you want, and when you find out he never intends to give you your pleasure, let him go.
Good sex is just so all around satisfying! Eases the mind and body, makes life better.
Hey, not judging or saying you are wrong. Just my opinion.
Elgie R – is orgasm the most important thing to achieve from being intimate though? I know some women who have issues climaxing but enjoy the rest of the intimacy. I think good sex that is satisfying and that feels good doesn’t always include an orgasm for me. Granted my ex did get me there almost every time and I never faked either. But I also enjoyed other things we did during that time … sometimes just being touched was satisfying for me or trying new things….I feel like you are saying that orgasm is the most important thing….I am sure you aren’t but just wanted to throw my opinion out there.
I agree! Though I tend to get highly emotionally involved with sex too early. Wish I didn’t. The last man I was with we just worked perfectly in bed. Quite astounding really. My emotions went on high. He asked me if I wanted to have a relationship with him and I said yes. Then he backed off. Created quite a vacuum. Next thing I know I am now sounding needy and clingy. Only text messages and disappearing acts. In a 6 week time frame I physically saw him 3 times. The rest was all texting. It was horrible. So if you are the type that opens up emotionally with the intimate act of sex, I wouldn’t suggest getting into to bed too fast.
Elgie R.
I never said my husband wasn’t good in bed or that I didn’t enjoy sex with him. Maybe I should have worded it different, he is the best lover I ever had because we love each other and our lovemaking is based on real love, not lust! I would be lying if I said I never had good sex with anybody else besides my husband, but that in no way negates his sexual abilities. I’m not sure if you are married, but sex is not always going to be mind numbing. While it is important, it is not the most important thing in a real relationship! We both have different sex drives and that’s okay. We also have a 5 year old and sometimes we don’t have as much sex as we would like but we do have normal sex drives.
You can teach people how to please you, if they know the basics. Sex is a learned ability. All people learn how to please other people. So to say that you can’t a person is not inaccurate. Just say you don’t want to teach them.
After a happy marriage my husband passed away. I was young and Gullible and fell hard for an emotionally unavailable man. He wasn’t over his ex and their toxic and turbulent relationship. I never saw the red flags. Perhaps I didn’t want to or I was totally blind sided. He broke my heart. 8 months later I met the most wonderful man. He is good on paper. He is a good father, sexy, kind to my sons. I have grown to love him intensely but some days wonder if I’m settling. I still have anger towards the other assclowm. It’s been 2 years since we broke up but I am extremely angry and don’t know whether I’m not over it because there is no more drama. Just a genuine loving man who says what he means and does what he says. I think I just miss the drama and if I ever lost this current man I would feel the same? Perhaps I never loved the assclowm. Maybe i just loved the unavailability and drama and hope I’m not being the same to my fiancé.
Sweet Canuck, I have walked in your shoes. Intellectually, I knew I needed to end it, but emotionally, I was unable to let go, because ACMM was my one salvation in this lonely rejecting world…so I felt…..except that he really wasn’t my salvation….and my insides kept trying to tell me that. The sadness I would feel after he left the booty call….I thought that was my unrequited love, but it was just plain emptiness….somewhere inside I was still hungry for a healthy connection with real substance.
Holding on to a nothing relationship IS NOT BETTER than nothing at all.
Stay here at BR and keep reading. Find those posts that help you connect the dots…the ones that give you the “Ah Ha” moments where the truth is so powerful that you have to walk away from the screen for a few minutes.
Find the strength in No Contact. When that down moment hits a few days into NC, ask yourself what you are missing. Missing having someone to think about? Missing being cared about? OK. How does this man show you he cares about you? He comes over and has sex? He comes over and puts you down? He…?
Please let that man go.
Rewind, I see no reason for beating yourself up. Sometimes it takes a few trips to the well to accept that “Hey, it’s always dry! WHY do I keep going back??!” You will stop. I think this post is trying to tell us to stop feeling like we have to cast someone in the role of our “true love”. Sometimes we just need to be with our self.
Addendum – after reading newer posts:
Intimacy and sex are different things. Nothing better than intimate sex, nothing more freeing. But intimacy alone is very enjoyable too and very desired by me….don’t need to be having sex to have intimacy….and if sex is the only time intimacy appears, there’s a problem. I loved sitting between my boyfriend’s legs, in bed, watching a movie, him eating his coffee ice cream, me my butter pecan… nothing better.
But sex without the big O? That is like preparing an all out Thanksgiving dinner, but only he gets the seasoned food. Yours is unseasoned.
Did not say I don’t want to teach. In my best relationship, we taught each other specific nuances we favored, but we were both very open, imaginative, wiling to please. My experience has been, when trying to teach someone who consistently leaves me unsatisifed, the man was very unwilling to listen.
Elgie,
I don´t think Stephanie ever said she didn´t care about orgasms or that she prefered cuddling intimately over sex or that she´s a geisha only concerned about giving her man pleasure.
As I understood her comments, she only said that when you choose a partner, the emotional connection should be more important than physical attraction. Meaning, simply put, that getting along on an emotional level with someone is more relevant for a successful long term relationship than finding someone handsome or sexy to look at. And really, once the initial attraction wears off, sex does become a bit mechanical if there´s no emotional (aka love) connection.
I agree with all you’ve said. I just feel that many women think there has to be an “OR” in the equation. I want emotional connection AND great sex, not OR great sex. Great sex, ok, marriageable sex. I can live with marriageable sex.
I had good luck in the past with having sex early on and finding a great emotional match in a great sex partner. But that lightening has only struck my life once. I’ve decided to change my method. From now on, when I meet someone and sex starts to loom, I will have a very frank discussion BEFORE falling into the sack – not just about safety, but about what he likes and what he does to his partner. No more scrubs for this woman.
And really, I don’t get why more men aren’t GREAT. If they are the impatient sort, it is not that hard to spend 20 minutes arousing a woman, touching her in several erogenous zones, not just nip-nip-cooch. They can sit longer than that watching TV…..why can’t they carve out 20 minutes for the woman? And every now and then throw in some long, non-rushed erotic sessions where it is all about HER pleasure, and she can do the same for him.
And those advice columns that tell women to diddle with themselves during the act to help get the O…..BS….when I have a partner I want to feel all the things I can’t do to myself. Brain studies show that a woman’s pleasure centers fire up most strongly when she is taken to the finish line by a person for whom she has strong good feelings.
I was FWB with a single EU man for 17 years. On a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being awesome, he got me to 7 every time. Four years ago, on my own, I discovered new things about my body responses….never believed in the G-spot but that night, I think I discovered it. So the next time I was with single EUM, I repeated my new learned process with him (instead of the toy) and BAM – first time ever with him, I reached 9.2 on my scale!
I was rolling around in pleasure, and know what? Single EUM got very sullen. Seemed perturbed, jealous. He was NOT happy for me. It was an eye-opening moment. He is now history.
Hey, I’m glad Stephanie found her guy. Gives me hope that there are more emotionally available men out there.
It’s a humbling experience when your teenage daughter looks at you and tells you you have horrible taste in men. I’ve only had two boyfriends in 10 years, one lasted 7 months and the other, about 3 years…It’s time for a MAJOR overhaul…I feel I have been commitment resistant myself to be “okay” with dating who I’ve dated…I’m excited because I can feel that things are changing for me! It’s the last bf that has done a number on my heart and that is so hard to move forward from, ugh…Baby steps for me and no more maybe men for me!
Ladies, I need help! Was back in touch with my EU man yesterday and last week after nearly a year of no contact. I had to get in touch with him about something to do with work, and he started up a conversation from there. It brought up all the old wounds from what had happened and the fact that he still doesn’t love me. I am in so much pain again, all refreshed by talking to him. I’m going NC again.. And today is day one!! My first goal: 30 days. Wish me luck!
Sawyer. I did the same thing. After a long long time of NC, I was doing just fine. Then out of the blue he found a way to contact me (borrowed a phone), then we were going back and forth in no time and suddenly I was back in that world of HUGE HURT. I went back to NC. Go back to day one. You can do it.
I try to make it a game and reward myself big time. If he contacts me and I do not answer or respond, I put ten bucks in a jar. Every time. When it gets up to 100, I go shopping!! Every time I make a new milestone, whether it’s one day, one week, or one month, I get some kind of reward for myself.
This sounds silly but once you get past the first month it is so much easier. Do what ever you need to do to get there.
Stay strong, Sistah. You can do it.
Thank you oregon girl!! I appreciate the support 🙂 day two and I’m going to print off a calendar and chart my progress (and reward myself!) thanks for the suggestion.
I read a GREAT tip in the (by now pretty old) self-help book Men Who Hate Women and the Women Who Love Them.
A woman who had left her abusive partner found herself from time to time fantasising about his great pecs and the great sex they’d had. She’d get really tempted to contact him.
So she would instead force herself to go to the basement and get out The Box. And in The Box was a pile of cheques that this man had written over the years for a whole string of ridiculous business ventures that had failure written all over them, and which had blown her money and almost destroyed her life.
She would sit and go through each one of those cheques, remembering the drama and pain around each one of these incidents, and somehow her urge to contact him evaporated. Every. Single. Time.
Ladies, we all need The Box – that little repository of all the bad, bad things we tend to forget about in a relationship. It’s not morbid; it can be a lifesaver and can stop you from doing dumb things like breaking NC.
Wow..What an amazing article. It made me realize that online dating is all about the art of the hustle. Before I went online early this summer I really worked on my self esteem and value and still I found it exhausting. Guys coming on strong and disappearing, future faking and then disappearing, lying, not being over their exs, etc. I have on Match for 3 months and I’m at a point where I need a break. Interesting I did have a lot of fun and learnt a lot. The thing guys told me about women who are willing to sacrifice their values, morals and souls made me sad. Not all but a lot. I just can’t do it. Maybe that why I have not been successful. Lots of fun first dates no follow ups. But I refuse to compromise my soul, values and will date with my self esteem on tact. Fuck everything else. Even of it means being single for a while.
That is really fascinating confused123. I just recently deleted my profile off of a dating site due to a recent experience on it. You are right to not compromise yourself. I did and it was very painful. Luckily I caught on quickly and ended it. I will never do it again. What are some of the things these guys said? Out of curiosity.
Lorri:
The guys tell me about how women use sex and manipulation to get what they want but interestingly enough the women who try to ‘play’ these guys get played as soon as feeling get factored into the mix. Desperation they show, how they chase these guys, etc. Sex is so easily thrown in front of these men that one guys profile actually said he was not interested in anyone who was not willing to take sex out of the equation initially. His exact word on his profile were “I like to have sex in a relationship not sex that turns into a relationship. Ladies you can’t screw me into committing to you” WOW…It’s like gender roles have changed.
One guy told me how refreshing it was meet someone who was willing to be genuine. Half the time they are impressed that I showed up on time and did not flake at the last minute before the date.
A lot of the guys are losers and assholes but there are good ones out there as well. I’ve met them. My friends and family have married some of these men they met online. After these are the same men you meet offline as well. It’s all about YOUR boundaries, values and self esteem.
I have three strict deal breaker rules:
• If you have issue dating someone with a child, DO NOT contact me.
• I do not believe in long distance relationships. If you are not with 30 mile radius of Seattle WA, DO NOT contact me.
• If you are attached/committed (currently separated, girlfriend, fiancé, FWB, etc) in any manner please DO NOT contact.
Lastly one that I don’t put on the profile is,
• If you flake or reject on me in ANYWAY. Don’t bother contacting me. NOT GONNA HAPPEN.
• No sex till I really really really know you. Don’t give a shit what every other women out there does.
It’s not that I like online but in Seattle it is really hard to meet guys without online. Men don’t ask you out here. It’s a grudge a lot of single have here.
Confused124
Well, that is something I wouldn’t have known about how available the sex is for these guys.
I was on a dating site for 5 years ( I live in a very small town – not much happening) and got only a handful of messages. Most with messages that said Hi or How are you and nothing else. I would write back Hi or Great, how about you? No response ever again.
I was beginning to think I must be very unappealing looking or my profile was too boring. A friend of mine was getting tons of messages. She told me she had to contact them first, or favorite them before she got any interest. I thought that was interesting.
On the subject of sex in itself and dating. I have learned not to trust so blindly. Especially on a dating site as it like being on a car lot and trying to find a car that won’t turn into a nightmare “after” you buy it (so to speak….lol). For me anyway, sex closes the deal and the car is sold.
Like I said, made that mistake once and will never again.
I found out the hard way that the car I bought into didn’t run properly and kept trying to fix it….lol. Of course now making me look needy and desperate. What a wicked game. It is much wiser to test drive it for quite awhile before buying it.
So, yes
•No sex till I really really really know you. Don’t give a shit what every other women out there does.
‘Even if it means being single for a while?’
My friend, ‘being single for a while’ may well turn out to be the happiest you’ve ever been!
You may also astonish yourself by not even noticing that you’re single any more.
My honest opinion, as a veteran of this myself from as early as the late 1990s, is that online dating is for liars and losers. Run away. Run away. Run away.
Ethelreda:
I barely notice being single anymore. I have an awesome life that revolve around my son, my friends, and the life I have created.
That being said I do get lonely occasionally.
As I mention above a lot of the guys are losers and assholes but there are good ones out there as well. I’ve met them. My friends and family have married some of these men they met online. After all these are the same men you meet offline as well. They don’t chance their behavior because they not online. A persons personality is what it is whether offline or online.
It’s all about YOUR boundaries, values and self esteem.
Yep someone was interested in me as myself and I noticed I felt good being with someone, as myself, for once, without having to think about it, – freedom! – there were no having to dress to impress, no histrionics, no drama, no need to be rescued or defend myself, attempts to explain myself, sell myself, reposition my history, hide my history, hide myself – and my feelings after 30 mins of this were?… Terror!!!!!Questions that ran through my head were…
What on earth was he doing? Did he know I was dreadful really? A deadbeat.
Perhaps he was just being nice and had no interest in me at all?
How do I rescue him when I now know I can’t rescue people – I am not flo nightingale?…but he needs rescuing a little bit & so do i…
He was telling me about some really dangerous, crazy thing he does with climbing & I was finding it fascinating, genuinely – something was worrying me so i went quiet but I couldn’t work out what at the time…..I actually left without even saying goodbye – I could neither cope with wanting to be asked out and not being asked or actually being asked out and not knowing whether to say yes or no – can you say yes without committing to someone?…leaving I felt completely rude and shameful – I had to get out of there ……..but beat myself up as I was going with – yet again I had missed my chance and I wouldn’t get another one and here I am pining on for the lost love I never got….
later away from him I worked out why what he was describing disturbed me so much – it is because I feel he does very physically risky things in order to get people’s attention instead of just getting attention for being his very good intellegent self – he makes himself appear to put himself in risks way when in reality he has calculated all the risks very carefully and enjoys explaining at this at length, noting your worry and rejecting it. Your care inflates his ego I think.
– That was what he was doing the first time I met him twenty years ago which worried me…. but i conveniently forgot that for a while – it was much better to batter myself for another love I had lost, through being afraid to commit. I think I need to commit to myself first though. It was good I walked away really – writing this I am aware I still view him as someone who needs to be rescued. Thanks Natalie for helping me get it all out of my head again. Thank you.
The never felt awkward when I found someone who actually treated me the way I deserved to be treated because I always knew I deserved this treatment. Up until AC, most of the men I had dated treated pretty well.
So when I met AC, he was treating me the opposite of the way I was use to being treated. I think that’s why I was always mad at him because he wasn’t treating me like the other men did and because I was physically attracted to him and living in a fantasy land, I tolerated this substandard relationship.
After getting rid of him and doing some soul searching, I put myself back on track and vowed I would never let anybody mistreat me. See I always knew that I deserved better and crumb taking was not something was going to engage in. So when I met my husband, my self-esteem was high and when he treated me with respect and love, this was not a foreign concept to me. It felt normal to me! I even said to my inner self–“Stephanie this is how it is supposed to be”.
I hope everybody finds someone to love, but if you don’t, so what. Love life anyway. The love you have for yourself will always keep you from dealing with crap and will provide you with inner happiness and peace you need to live a fulfilling life.
Thank you so much for this post. I can’t believe how accurately you have hit the nail on the head and this post is so relevant to my life right now.
Your book helped me to let go of my Mr Unavailable, although it took 3 attempts. I have been trying to work on myself and my self esteem.. I met a great guy who shared my core values and treated me like a queen but there was something missing. I felt completely like I was miss unavailable and he was a male version of me. I even caught myself telling him things mr unavailable told me.
Now I feel so confused and alone I am trying to understand myself. Being alone is forcing me to revisit my feelings for the mr unavailable, the love is still there and if he wanted me today I would take him back… I don’t know how I will ever get over this or move on completely it’s just ridiculous. Wish I could erase him from my memory. Wish I could force myself to love someone else..but I guess I haven’t met that person yet…
Alice, It takes time…often longer than we would like it to, but you’ll get there. Keep reading BR and I think you’ll find that your way of thinking about this guy, the relationship, and relationships in general will shift. I’m kind of embarrassed that it took me as long as it did to stop thinking about the AC, but he doesn’t hold any appeal for me now. At one time I thought that I would always think of him and what I’d missed in not having a future with him. I now shudder at the thought of what that future would have been. I’m a little concerned that you’re waiting for the right guy to make you forget about him. Work on figuring out why you were attracted to someone like this in the first place, where your own unavailability stems from and how you can become available for a more healthy relationship. Until this happens you’ll continue to be attracted to unavailable men and continue a pattern of unhealthy relationships.
Dear Alice,
I read your post and just wanted to wish you every encouragement. I can totally relate to what you are saying, and I wish I had the magic answer for it all. I just wanted you to know that you aren’t alone and that I have to believe if you keep working on yourself, it will get better.
I am also attempting to really put a bad situation behind me. Sometimes I feel like I am winning the battle, and other times it feels like the battle is kicking my butt. I have to try and remind myself to just stick to NC and ride the ebb and flow of it all. This too shall pass.
I know how it can feel like it will never go away, but I think so much of it is just habitual thinking and that the familiarity of it gives us comfort as just something we know. I really believe it gets better.
Wish I could be more helpful, just wanted to let you know you aren’t alone in this…
Tangerine – you hit the nail on the head for me. Habitual thinking. I know I don’t want to be with my ex anymore. Yea, I still have some feelings but I find myself thinking about him and I get frustrated. Then think that thinking about him has been such a habit for 3 years … I just want to stop thinking about him period. I think about him most when lying in bed. Thinking about him living with his gf. He contacted me about a month and he was very persistent in wanting to see me. I told him no but he said he was going to take his chances and show up at my place after work anyway. He was there…begging to be with me, to touch me, to please me blah blah blah. I caved. He has not changed at all…it was good for me to see that because for a long time I thought maybe he was a better person with her and that he had it all with her….but thats not true. anyway – just wanted to comment on the habitual thinking.
Every since I was little, I’ve had this ability to read people. I always thought I had pretty good intuition, almost to the point I thought I was psychic. The funny thing is my ex narc used to call me negative; he said I always saw the bad in people, but you know what, my intuition is always dead on. NO, it isn’t a self-fulfilling prophecy; I’ve tried to give people the benefit of the doubt, and I’ve tried to remain positive, but now I’m starting to believe, as crazy as it seems, I really am an Empath. I’m not neurotic; I just really read people well, and when I smell a rat, sure enough it’s a rat.
I’m just so done with people. I really think most of the people I’ve ever met in my life are bad, dishonest, blood-sucking scums of the Earth, and I really don’t know why because I’m a good person.
Someone just acted true to form today: I knew he was a snake; a AC–wanted things on his terms. He unfolded, and although I didn’t place myself in a bad situation, I’m so sick and tired of being right about people. Their terms; their terms; THEIR TERMS!!!
Maybe all of the women on here are right–maybe there is a shortage of good men out there. I haven’t met NOT one man in my entire life who has been true to his word and decent.
I guess I’m a fallen angel; I must have been an evil person in another life, and this is my Hell.
Sorry for the rant, but this is how I feel: there aren’t any good men out there, at least not for me, and most people in this world are dishonest, self-serving $%^&*.
I agree with Betty White; I’d rather just spend my time with the animals; one day, I’ll leave society all together, and ride on the back of an elephant; men suck!!
Maleficent,
I understand your frustration, but don’t give up on love. I have met my share of rats, but I also met some good people who I just wasn’t compatible with. My belief is everybody you meet is not necessarily the person you are suppose to spend the rest of your life with. Different people come into your life for various reasons and from every interaction there is a lesson to be learned.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe you are a tad bit critical of other people? I am a good reader of people also, but I don’t use this ability to label people. I just know based on their actions if me and this person will connect. This doesn’t make them bad, we just don’t vibe well together.
Think about this if every guy you’ve met is “bad” the only common denominator in the equation is you? This is not to say your bad, but sometimes we need to look at ourselves and think about how our behavior maybe impacting why we choose certain people to have relationships with. Just a thought!
I meet lots of good men; the best of them are taken but can still be your platonic brothers without any drama or boundary-busting.
Maleficent – I am so sorry you feel this way. I think everyone has days like this when the elephant option looks like the best one.
Human beings are flawed; that includes me, sadly, and it takes time to learn to accept that perfection is not out there, any more than it’s ‘in here’, in your own heart. We’re messy, emotional creatures, and we get stuff wrong all the time.
But there could be other things going on here which are queering your pitch, so to speak:
1) Where you live, eg. what neighbourhood
2) Where you work
3) Who you hang out with
4) Who you live with
5) What you do in your spare time, eg. hobbies, recreation
Dodgy relationships in romance are very often paired up with dodgy relationships across the board.
Is it worth looking at these other things and trying to see if changing one or more of these will perhaps break the pattern?
Maleficent, I have a similar viewpoint. Me. Miss almost-Pollyanna-always-described-as-Nice.
I realize “nice” was not a compliment. I am different from those around me…..I have no ulterior motives, I am happy for other’s success, always trying to help others get what they want.
And yet I sprout haters wherever I go. Had people be nasty with me because I seem to be always smiling or laughing.
It irks me that rudeness is most peoples’ first weapon in any minor social conflict. I do think people are extremely ME oriented. I too have always felt a psychic ability. I am also very attuned to nonverbal cues…I pick up on very subtle things.
I think a pet or two are in my future, because I do crave unconditional love, and that is the only place to get it.
Maleficent
Ethreda really states it well. There are good men out there, just not everywhere. The culture/socioeconomics of a place really determine who does or does not live there. In an earlier comment, I described meeting a wonderful man, who, unfortunately lives far away. Some places NOT to meet men include the bar scene, anywhere that caters to a crowd that doesn’t fit your values. Unless your workplace is very large, I don’t recommend the workplace. As where I live is not a good place to meet good stable men, I avoid most local places/events unless there are a lot of new folk there from outside the area, avoid the ski resorts (called the ski and screw crowd for good reason), try and meet folk at events in line with my lifestyle/values such as charity events, races, environmental stuff. Coming from a rural place, on line doesn’t really work. We also have to be the person we want to date. Quality folk are scarce and you have to sift through a lot of not so quality folk to find them. Are other women similar to you having the same problem? If so, its where you live, hang out. You describe understanding someone was an AC; that’s the first step. Detecting ACs before attaching in any way. I too think
about bailing on society at times because
yep, it often does seem hopeless. On the other hand, I am not yet ready to write myself off.
Hi! I am a very “nice” guy who recently broke up with a Miss Unavailable I was with for two years. There were plenty of signs that she was unable or unwilling to be available…only texted, only saw eachother on weekends while we spent time at her campground, and only seemed to have a “summer” relationship because she claimed she had no emotional resources for a relationship when she was working the rest of the year (teacher). I was subsiding on relationship crumbs, and was afraid to rock the boat because I truely loved her. I am wondering if I shouldn’t have made it so easy for her to put so little into the relationship? These are dating patterns she has from prior relationships according to friends, and I truely wonder if she is capable of loving anyone. When we broke up she claimed she didn’t love me as much as I loved her, and wanted to be with someone she loved. Of course while we were together, it was another story…
Thanks for the website! It’s very enlightening.
I admit I take an occasional dip in the “I’ve lost hope there are men out there with high integrity and great character” pool. It starts to feel that way as time passes and you haven’t found a quality connection or someone that is inline with your core values and things you need in another to feel loved, cared for, respected and have found the man you could spend a lifetime with. I am here to tell you there ARE great men out there! DON’T LOSE HOPE PLEASE just know it is a valley right now where it seems like that is all that is out there but once you are at the top of the hill you will see the valley infront of you and know out of 7 billion on this planet this one guy (or a few) isn’t going slant my perspectives or dash my hopes. I was dated/was married to THE MOST WONDERFUL man for 26 years – he died from cancer at 44yrs old. It’s been over 5 years – still searching – yes I dip in the pool too but I always get out, towel myself off and start walking up the hill again. If I ever stop it would be sad to me because I long to be in relationship with someone and share life with another. Can I be alone, sure… and be happy yes – but for me relationships make me less selfish and more selfless and what I am working on is finding the right balance on that so I don’t get taken advantage of by ACs EUMs and out right con artists. We have to help each other get stronger and never lose hope!!! Hang tough girlfriend… it’s a journey and we’re learning all the way.
this reply was to malificent after I read her post …. but I wish it for you too George!
To any of you ladies thinking about giving up – don’t. I’m a man. I’m a selfless, giving man, who believes in taking great care of the woman I’m with. I may have chosen poorly, but that’s on me, and I’m certainly not assuming all women are callous, promiscuous twits who could care less. There are good people out there, we’ve all just got to take a hard look at ourselves, why and what we have previously been willing to accept, and make improvements so that we’re uncompromising in loving ourselves and won’t allow anyone to feed us a diet of crumbs.
If I have to be alone forever, I’m okay with that, because it’s better to feed myself the whole loaf of bread than beg for scraps from someone who doesn’t care and refuses to value what I’ve brought to the table. When someone comes who does appreciate it and puts both feet in, I will be ready for her.
Keep your heads up and don’t lose hope. You only get one shot on this little blue marble, and a positive attitude and good self-esteem can make all the difference.
Great words of encouragement BurnedbyaMissUnavailable thank you!!
‘If I have to be alone forever, I’m okay with that, because it’s better to feed myself the whole loaf of bread than beg for scraps from someone who doesn’t care and refuses to value what I’ve brought to the table.’
Treble yes to that!
I am slowly and painfully learning to ‘feed myself the whole load of bread’. It took 43 years, and a deep deep crisis triggered by a textbook specimen of a narcissist, to get it (and even then, clarity comes at times, yet I still experience a lot of confusion.) I always thought I was strong, I always thought of myself as fiercely independent, that I did not need a man in my life to be ‘whole’. Yet I’ve learned that loneliness, vulnerability, and isolation can put anyone at risk, together with issues that have not been dealt with from the past. So now I am starting – one little step at a time (more like two forwards and three backwards!), laid bare, having lost everything (my job, any possibility of an academic career, etc.), it’s all out in the open. At times I still feel dangerously close to the edge. Thus I ask BR readers to send me good wishes in my journey, that clarity may come and stay, and guide me – all of us here – in the right direction. Thanks to Natalie and all for your words of wisdom.
ReadyForChange
I send you great big wishes of clarity, understanding and peace in your journey. I too have learned that loneliness, vulnerability, and isolation can put anyone at risk, together with issues that have not been dealt with from the past.
I am personally going to take a journey to that past issue myself to see if there is something there that needs to be looked at again to give clarity to this present.
I suspect there is.
Good Luck : )
Thank you for that BurnedbyaMissUnavailable : )
Hi everyone,
I have a question why are most Mr. EUM’s and Miss. EUM’s great in bed? I find that most of our baggage reclaim readers will stated this along with the undesirable traits that most of these assclowns have. My assclown was great in bed too is this because we are attracted to push and pull that they put us though? I am having a hard time letting go I know he is not right for me and he treated me shitty, but I still want what he gave me in the bedroom. He started contacting me by lazy communication three months ago after disappearing for six months I have ignore him and not responded, but my mind does go back to the great sex we had. It is really getting hard for me not to contact him the only thing that keeps me strong is this blog and the strength of others because I know if I contact him it will set me back.
Bella, I disagree on the bedroom skills, but it is my belief and experience that most ACs are very physically attractive. That’s why they get away with so much crap.
EUs run the gamut in looks, but true ACs, in my view, tend to be above average in physical attractiveness.
I get a sense, in my limited experience, that for some people sex is a way of avoiding real intimacy, yet it can be mistaken for a great and deep connection. That may explain it.
Thanks, NoMo Drama
I believe I hate to say that I fall into this category. I know everyone has not stated that their Miss/Mr. Unavailable was great in bed, but some have post this in comments. I was just wondering.
My AC was great in bed…that’s why I put up with his shit for so long. I’m having a hard time letting go as well, even thought he’s moved on to another victim. WTF?
Hi Elgie R,
Thanks for your response. Some days are better then others. Some days am hopeful and others am defeated.
Natalie, you have been an angel in my life. Please don’t stop. I am struggling and see no way out. I have to believe I am worth it and will be happy once again. It’s sooo hard. I believe in the no contact rule and will stick to it. Thank you, Gail
This definitely explains why I want to be interested in a guy but I just can’t find the urge to talk to him beyond the casual greeting because we’re just not that into each other.