Everybody wants to be liked. We can’t help it and it’s normal. We all want acceptance and fear rejection. How much we want and fear these things however, has a great deal to do with our happiness and the general quality of our lives.
When our journey involves banking too much of our self-esteem (including our perceived worth) on how much we’re liked, it predisposes us to having a greater sensitivity to rejection. When the route we take is determined by our fear of rejection and we have a lengthy index of things that we equate to meaning rejection (e.g. experiencing disappointment, hearing / receiving no, people not wanting to change, experiencing conflict, people we like not agreeing with us all the time, people not living up to our assumptions etc.,) our actions become very geared towards protection. We take routes that end up limiting us because what we do is driven by what we think and unless we’re thinking “I’m afraid of ______ but I’m going to go ahead and do _____”, what we’re thinking is “I’m afraid of _____ so I need to protect myself by doing ________ which I think will help me to avoid/minimise it or by doing ______ which I think could let me try and get what I want without risking myself” and it invariably ends in tears. Like when we’re afraid of putting ourselves out there so we opt into a casual relationship.
Everyone wants to be liked but we can spend a lot of our time here repeating the module of lessons that when we’re ready to heed them, teach us that what we’ve been seeking is something that we’ve had the power to give to ourselves. We’re at our happiest when we practice self-acceptance instead of our perception and treatment of us being conditional. We think we’ll be happiest when ‘everybody’ likes us which is like trying to cup the ocean in our hands, and even if it’s not ‘everybody’, we can still end up seeking an ever shifting ‘critical mass’ – we convince ourselves that there’s a tipping point of the adoption of Product Us. We think our lives will be so much better when we feel confident that people who we think matter oh-so-much are seeing us in exactly the way that we want to be seen.
Do I want to be liked? Yeah sure, but I want to like me more than I want others to like me because when it was the other way around, I quite literally hated myself and what I’d come to represent.
There’s a fine line between wanting to be liked and needing to be liked, where your life becomes about seeking popularity with certain designated folk, being admired, and having people pat you on the back and validate that you’re doing a ‘good job’ at being you. When I see the torture that people of all ages put themselves through these days, it’s like we’re trying to run our own fan clubs.
We want to be liked but we can be guilty of crossing into collecting attention. We go from having self-esteem to believing that self-esteem is the level of external attention and validation received. It’s like we’re trying to live in a ‘live Facebook’ full of ‘likes’ and comments.
I want to be liked but I don’t want to be liked that much, “that” being that point where it’s actually need and I’m prepared to bust my own boundaries, standards, values, beliefs, happiness, and basically my identity and my life.
I’ve learned the hard way that if I don’t like me, it really doesn’t matter who likes me whether they’re being genuine or not. I used to question what these people saw in me or expect them to be disappointed in a matter of time due to my ‘flaws’.
You have to walk around in your body, you have to look you in the eye, and you have to carry around your head full of thoughts and go to sleep at night after spending your waking hours tapdancing for your fan club and then doing the splits into the doormat move. You’re the one who will have to live with the bullshit.
You cannot be liked by everyone, but you know what? The sky isn’t going to fall down, you’ll live to fight another day, and you don’t like everyone either. Even saints didn’t like everyone so don’t kid yourself that you’re the Patron Saint of Liking.
People are going to think what they’re going to think and do what they’re going to do irrespective of how much you attempt to control the uncontrollable. They are living their lives. You can keep trying to take over the controls, or auditioning or even campaigning, but they’re going to think and do what they want. End of.
Convincing is a drag and a suspicion inducer. The harder you try to be liked, is the harder the person who you’re breaking your spirit over will find it to like you, not least because trying to be liked is different to living your life and being you and being liked as a byproduct of healthy interactions.
You’re just not that desperate.
Get on with the business of living. Are you being you? Are you on a low BS diet and being honest with respect? Do you like who you are? Are you willing to get uncomfortable, assert yourself and face conflicts instead of being a people pleaser? Are you being and doing as you expect from others? Are you living your life according to your values? Is it a definite no-no for selling you down the river? That’s the stuff that matters, not being liked by everyone.
You know how you feel about being liked is healthy when you know what your identity is. You know that it’s unhealthy when your identity is whatever you think will get you approval at any given moment.
The funny thing is that yeah, some people aren’t going to like you because they don’t like something about you, but actually, it is far from always being about something you’ve ‘done’ and often it’s about them and how they feel about an aspect of themselves. Not everyone is going to like you but they’re not people who you need to be giving your energy to.
Your thoughts?
Add to favorites
“you don’t like everyone either”. This is the crucial part for me: since there are some people I just -don’t- like, I have always assumed there will be people who don’t like me. But some people seem unable to accept that this might be the case. Being liked by everyone isn’t the mark of success, it’s the mark of mediocrity.
100 Facebook likes for this comment and a 🙂
I don’t agree with the above..Everybody loves David Attenborough..I would say that last thing he is, is mediocre…It’s what your being liked for that matters.
I don’t love David Attenborough.
I don’t love David Attenborough. Nor do I know him to like him.
Liking something that someone does is not the same as liking them for who they are.
I am sure there are some people who know David personally and don’t like him. Frankly, that speaks well for him!
Frank’s comment actually got me re-pondering how prevalent it is for people to say they like or love someone they don’t even know/have never met – because they like something that person does.
E.g. As per Frank’s example, people often say they love because they were good in .
Same example applies to bands or solo artists, etc etc (will refer to all as ‘artists’ from here to save typing).
I’m also reminded of the times I’ve read people met their idol and realised they’re a douche.
So I’ve also often wondered if people read the interviews of these artists and decide they don’t like them after all. And whether that also tarnishes their view of the work they liked, i.e. removes artist from pedestal.
How do people reconcile their “loving” an artist, with, say, an interview in which that artist might say something that conflicts with own beliefs/values/ideals – the kind of conflict that would be a deal breaker in any real life relationship/friendship etc.
Rhetorical mostly – it’s easy to minimise/ignore a deal breaker when person is not directly involved in your life. I get that. I also realise that interviews often quote out of context etc, and everyone is human or might phrase something poorly when put on the spot. Also that you don’t have to like everything about someone in order to like them. However, I refer more to things that are deal breakers in our real life relationships.
I guess I just find it interesting that liking something someone does is often expressed as liking/loving the person. And I ponder how this contributes to setting us up for toxic relationships – a willingness to believe someone is a good person because of what they do, perhaps not considering motivations, or choosing to believe (and not question whether) motivations are born of good intent (until perhaps too late?)…
Oops, used pointy brackets in my example – it should read:
E.g. As per Frank’s example, people often say they love XYZ actor/actress because they were good in XYZ movie.
lies..you love Sir David lol
Just wanted to say a massive thank you. Really needed to read this today – going to print it out, old-school style, and read it on a daily basis until the message gets through.’…don’t kid yourself that you’re the Patron Saint of Liking.’ 🙂 Love it.
how could anyone not like you clare?
Thank you for this. It really reflects my healing and my new mantra, “I choose ME.” I have always been terrified of rejection and your post is spot-on about trying to control others’ perceptions in order to NOT be rejected again. I would tie myself into a pretzel to protect myself against it. Ironically, by trying not to be rejected by others, I rejected myself! No more. It has taken me a LOT of inner work and discipline, but I am here at the place where choosing ME is the wisest and most peaceful choice I can make.
Blessings.
I used to tie myself up in knots trying to be “good enough” for the people in my life, but i realised one day that i was over it all and i was sick of feeling like a performing seal at a circus for a mob of fools who didnt appreciate me anyway. now i live for me and if anyone doesnt like it then thats their problem!!!!
Thank you Nat for reminding me that i only have to be good enough for me!!
This hits home! I realize I was jumping through hoops for approval from people who really didn’t matter. It was rather superficial, stupid, and shallow! Plus, their values weren’t even close to mine. Duh! 🙂
I totally understand that. I reread my texts to my ex the other night and never realized how much I tried to sell myself to her. It was ridiculous and absurd and I turned into a salesman getting this woman to like me more than she was able to because she was unavailable…and I felt like I wasn’t good enough because of it.
Glad you left the circus because life is way too short.
539
Perfect…just perfect. This applies to family, friends, friends of friends, co workers…friends of mates and boyfriends….it’s time we spend less time trying to make them like us……and give them room to try to make US like THEM. you know what? I tried this approach and guess what? I found I really didn’t like them. At all. They were just not my cup of tea. We had very different lifestyles and core beliefs. Guess who came out on top? ME. I like who I am…don’t care if they do…they are free to bumble their way along the path of THEIR life…not mine anymore. It really IS about them, isn’t it? Their lack. Their whatever….I will not let them make me less than or minimalize mr or my worth…perfect…just that. Perfect. 🙂
P.s. not caring if I am liked…lets me be me…..
Sometimes people worry about being liked because their survival depends upon it. Then it becomes a habit even after survival does not depend on being liked and ‘one of the group’. I had a hard time learning this. Because of some unfortunate experiences in the past, I was dependent on the help and approval of other people for a while. I used to worry so much about pleasing them because it really did make the difference between living or not. I think for anyone who has ever been in a very helpless position in life, the anxiety about being liked or approved of is very real. It takes getting out of dependency, becoming independent and self directed first, then comes the space and security for learning about not needing to constantly seek approval and people’s good opinion of you all the time!
That´s so right! That`s me- still trying to get more independent…. Thank you!
Timely, timely post. I have trouble not taking even the opinion of male acquaintances or people I don’t know well too personally. I come into contact with a lot of people who tend to think very highly of themselves/are arrogant about their perspectives. And at times, even though I assert myself and state my opinions with conviction, I find myself “auditioning” to show off how great I am. The aren’t I great? Aren’t I so great? dance is exhausting and superfluous. I am so sick of “interviewing” or “auditioning” to be liked! I ALREADY HAVE THE JOB/THE PART! 🙂 I can like myself and not have to perform for others. And I am glad I have this space where I am not dating so I can keep working on my self-esteem outside of these external opinions before I get back into the dating world.
People are often unreasonable, irrational, and self-centered. Forgive them anyway.
If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives. Be kind anyway.
If you are successful, you will win some unfaithful friends and some genuine enemies. Succeed anyway.
If you are honest and sincere people may deceive you. Be honest and sincere anyway.
What you spend years creating, others could destroy overnight. Create anyway.
If you find serenity and happiness, some may be jealous. Be happy anyway.
The good you do today, will often be forgotten. Do good anyway.
Give the best you have, and it will never be enough. Give your best anyway.
For you see, in the end, it is between you and God. It was never between you and them anyway.
– Mother Teresa
snowboard,
beautiful post!
I think a part of this pattern of not only wanting to be liked, but also not wanting someone to be mad at you. I sat down one day and asked myself a question: Would it be the end of the world if someone is mad at you? The answer was that the world would most definitely not come to an end. Once I realized that it is okay for someone to be mad at me, I felt free to be me. I could respect my own boundaries and conduct my life as I see fit. It was one of the most freeing experiences I have ever had.
So true. Ignoring boundaries in order to avoid someone being mad or disappointed, ala treading on eggshells. Tool of the emotionally abusive. Also not ignoring the fact that women are often conditioned from childhood to acquiesce in order to ‘keep the peace’, ala care taking other’s feelings/emotions. A lot of men expect/demand it to some degree, because of their conditioning. In some ways I believe worse now in this age of The Special Snowflake.
Re my comment: “tool of the emotionally abusive” – poorly phrased. Meant to convey that the getting mad/disappointed is the tool, i.e. causing others to tread on eggshells.
I am seeing more and more that I have to live with me all of the time and reap the consequences and rewards for my every action so I might as well be nice to me if I’m so incredibly responsible for this person that didn’t exactly ask for the responsibility and is pretty damn scared about living, life and what that entails/means.
I am very needy on the external validation/collecting attention front. I didn’t have facebook throughout most of my college life because I thought it was needy, useless and frivolous and made me superior because I didn’t have it. And I was afraid to put myself out there in ANY way. Now I post all the time. I push myself to share pictures and my thoughts. It’s hard sometimes because I don’t always get a response. I used to take down pictures and statuses that didn’t get any likes. Now I leave them because the ladder was saying, “Your sharing is only valuable if your facebook friend’s deem it so.” What are theses hundred and something people God? Why should they get the final say in my sharing. I mainly rely on facebook for getting social needs met. This is not healthy long term. I see it as a transition. I have missed so much healthy social interaction.
I’m going through something similar…. Not only did I like posting, I got a “high” whenever anyone liked my posts. Plus, I used to try to add as many people as friends as possible to keep up with the more social people, who seem to have 1,000 friends, and then I realized: why do I need this? I prefer having a couple of close friends at any given time who really get me as opposed to 1,000 acquaintances, and believe it or not, I still lose touch with some of the people I added as friends on Facebook anyway! I’m starting to use Facebook less and less as a primary means of social interaction.
My own parents didn’t like me; I cannot pass for white like my brothers could, I am outspoken where they wanted me to hide in the background as they did. As a veteran environmental activist, avid Socialist, and someone who was spat upon as a young woman because she was different from her peers, I am used to not only being disliked but thoroughly hated. Yep, there are many that I dislike as well; generally they earned the honor. It does hurt when someone who professes to love you turns out to in reality strongly dislike or perhaps even hate you. That sort of duplicity I find really hard to get over. As for the obvious, blatant, Miskwa haters, I say f@#$ em!
@Miskwa-I look forward to and follow your posts. I think many of us on BR envy your authentic lifestyle and the courage of your convictions. We can’t understand why Assclown professor treated
you poorly because to us you are AWESOME.
So I think he Assclowned before Miskwa,
he Assclowned with Miskwa, and is Assclowning now. Nothing personal about
Miskwa, it’s him. And I think Miskwa is stuck with her feet in lead, wants to get out of Dodge, has financial concerns, maybe take a mental health
sabbatical to Vt. Then she’d say it’s just
a bunch of yahoo cows there (well hey, they do have a Socialist for a senator). You’ll be taking your baggage with you. So reclaim it!
Baggage 101: “my own parents didn’t like me.” And people hurt you because you were different. But it wasn’t because you are a certain color, or educated and smart, or independent, and
a thinker, or rebellious, or a social activist. It is because of their character issues. Hurt people, hurt people. Miskwa who wants to protect our natural environment and save wounded animals needs to protect and save Miskwa.
Do not let these hurt people invalidate you. They are probably threatened by you because they live phoney shallow lives. Take the sabbatical and write your autobiography,
everyone here will buy the hard copy because you are amazing.
But work out your parental rejection which you perhaps project onto your men.
If you feel they didn’t love/appreciate you that is deep soul hurt to overcome. Gotta love Miskwa, dark skin, smart, kickass, mountain girl, all the adjectives you self describe. I see you as incredibly special, Miskwa. I want you to love yourself so someone else will to.
I have to say that I agree wholeheartedly with simple pleasures, Miskwa.
Here, let me outline the main points:
a) This guy was a douche because he was a douche loooooong before meeting the rockstar known as Miskwa. 😉
b) It bears repeating: anyone that can take on a grizzly with quiet fortitude, especially with an assclown nearby running for his life, is someone that garnishes my deep respect.
c) To put it simply, “Hater’s gonna hate.” End.Of. Bullies aren’t smart enough to differentiate between differences in people (dark, light, activist, whatever…)on any deep level. They just go for the jugular because they themselves have small penises (err….characters. I mean characters.)
So that’s it in a nutshell. From one tough chick to another: *punches Miskwa lightly and awkwardly on her shoulder* You’re pretty cool.
Revolution, you describe yourself as a tough chick and I’m envious! I would love to be a tough, kickass woman. People would laugh at me if I described myself that way, but you once called me Steel Magnolia and I love it so much that I’ve adopted it! I may not be kickass, but I am strong (getting stronger).
Yes, you are getting MUCH stronger, Lilly. We can all see it.
By the way, I left a comment to you and Teach as a reply to one of her comments, later in the comments section.
“Hurt people, hurt people”
The hurt as abuser. Unable to resolve/reconcile their own issues or hurt, they carry their baggage until either they die, seek help, or meet someone who wants to help them heal (ala Florence Nightingale). Continually trying to make others responsible for their hurt and make it go away.
Miskwa I love reading your posts and am so full of admiration for you. I know I have mentioned it before, but my teenage daughter is always talking about living a lifestyle like yours. She wants to live in the woods surrounded by animals. I truly believe your way of life is aspirational and that the next generation will pick up Miskwa’s torch and run with it. You are a forerunner of a lifestyle to come.
I have to agree with simple pleasures, Revolution & Victorious. Miskwa, you are amazing and when I read your posts I want to escape the suburbs and come live with you. As for that hideous, racist AC I hope he stays away or gets eaten by a grizzly.
I’ve been having a hard time with wondering why Ac doesn’t want or like me.He willing gave me answers when he broke it off with me this summer.I hadn’t contacted him for a few days after he asked to use my car didn’t come back for hrs for him to finally answer the phone to say he had been out getting fitted for his suite for his sis wedding.I was irritated I wasn’t invited to either and let him know he left that morn didn’t come back or call for 3 days and I didn’t call him.So out the blue he text me a pic of his penis so,I said hi is that all for me he text back no not anymore,I was hurt and confused.He told me to bring his clothes when I got to where he was he was looking at me like he didn’t like me anymore.He went on to tell me I was boring I wouldn’t play with toys in bed (but we did and he had me bleed so He didn’t luke that I complained),he said that if I don’t start back exercising I’m on the way to losing my shape soon,I left and that night I did cry and text him but didn’t the next day I got up and went to work.Ac text at 3 said he would meet me at my house and I was desperate enough to say okay,when he got there he went straight for sex I asked him if he said all those things yesterday why is he here now,he said he was just kidding.But mths later and suck and see sessions later and now sticking to nc I still wonder about everything he said that did indicate he didn like me and,I still wonder why not is it something I can do to change his mind be more fun do the 3ways he demand for all the time,when I did it cause I just wanted him to want to be with me. I pray cause I don’t know who I am but I do know no matter what I did he still didn’t like me so I have to move on and accept that thanks Nat.
This man is not a nice person. He’s extremely selfish, manipulative, abusive and controlling. Please stop worrying about whether he likes you or why he might not like you. You should not like him. He is not worth it, not a likeable person, and whoever ends up with him is to be pitied. Be glad it won’t be you. You have tried hard to make him happy and meet his utterly unreasonable demands and he’s behaved like the waste of space he is. Everything Nat says about boundaries is valid. Please decide that you deserve better. You do
omg. lllllacy….
a guy who texts you a dick pic after 3 days of silence after taking your car is a piece of shit. and that’s only a couple examples you gave. not to mention…i can’t even type it…he made you bleed??? and then complained that you didn’t like it??? that officially makes him a MONSTER.
honey. he is an abuser. you are the abused. please get therapeutic help immediately if you haven’t already. you need to see the right way to take care of yourself.
and wipe that guy from your mind. and anybody you meet who reminds you in the least little way of him? run the other way.
He told me that I should call him sometimes why does he always have to call me and I need to show him I miss him this was again another time he didn’t call for a few days and neither did I,he is right on that part but the thing is when I seen some red flags I backed off some even though I still dealt with him which is also backwards I should’ve just left the situation alone, its like we are both unavailable I don’t know how to be in a relationship right now.When we were good I let him do most of the calling,because I was skeptical because of the history we had in my mind I said forget him but I still engaged in a half way relationship with him.He asked if he paid my rent and he still mingled and the only other woman he slept with was his baby mother could he come live with me,and I said no.so crazy of me I wish I had said yes,because lil by lil he moved all his stuff in and slept there every night and didn’t pay anything maybe by restaurant food hear and there for 2yrs he had got what he wanted without me saying yes,we been off and on since 01,I keep wondering if I had agreed to his terms if I was more fun or looked a certain way would he treat me better? I know I have alot of work to do. I will be truthful as possible on here even if I do look like an idiot, because the more info and advice I get it does help me and I am thankful for the replies.
Lacy, I cringed reading this, “but we did and he had me bleed so He didn’t luke that I complained”.
You are in danger with this man, get out while you can. The longer you screw around with someone like this, the more damage you will have to recover from in the future.
Get some professional help if you can, because it sounds like you feel comfortable or confused about abusive behavior. It will help to have an ally who can help you sort up from down.
It’s not that he likes or doesn’t like you, it’s that he does not have the capacity to understand he is dealing with a real, live human being. He knows how to push buttons and say things to get what he wants, but in his mind you are like a vending machine, something to get what he wants out of on his terms and at his whims with no concern for you. This is no reflection on your actual value…got it? It’s like wondering why that deaf guy across the room isn’t answering you when you scream…he can’t hear, he couldn’t if he wanted to.
So YOU need to be concerned for you.
This man is dangerous and harmful to your health and well-being. Stay away from him!
I have seen a psychologist,He told me that I am severely depressed and said that is the reason Ac and I have most of the problems we have,He told me that he is a player also another reason he acts that way towards me.The psychologist told me to go out to a club and speed date.I am not a club person although its nothing wrong with going I have 3 kids I’m 31 and I work early mornings as an xray tech I have lil time for that,also when I’m around too many people I feel lost.I haven’t been back to see that dr but I have been going somewhere else to see a therapist.My issues are still unresolved and Ac calls everyday.I broke nc last night he had been text for 7 days straight even came by I ignored he used to just come in but I changed my locks,so last night he text said the he just got robbed and why am I mad at him for no damn reason,I let him in and today I feel terrible my mind is not strong enough.I keep trying to figure out why doesn’t he want to love me? and I keep testing the water and it hurts more and more each time I know that’s what I get for playing with fire.I will continue to see the therapist and work on me. I had to be honest and say I broke Nc cause I didn’t have to let him in just because he said he got robbed sometimes I just don’t know what to do but I know working on his terms hurts me so bad I can hardly get out of bed and I know that’s not normal and its up to me to pull myself out of this situation,I have to start again and stick to my plan to make my life happier without him.
Some people I know could speed date right after what you’ve been through, but I don’t think you’re able to get to that point yet. I’m not sure how much your psychologist knew of your situation, but the fact that he/she called your ex a player means that he/she is noticing red flag behavior-behavior that you should stay away from. I don’t think your depression necessarily caused any problems; rather, from what we know about your situation, it may be quite the opposite: your ex’s behavior is causing you to feel depressed.
Ultimately, the decision is yours, but I highly recommend staying away from your ex! He’s violating your boundaries and hurting you in the process. You don’t have to go into speed dating like your psychologist says; just keep working on you by going to the therapist.
+1 re:
“he is an abuser”
“wipe that guy from your mind”
Re: “I still wonder about everything he said that did indicate he didn like me and,I still wonder why not is it something I can do to change his mind”
Easier said than done: please don’t give this man another thought.
His behaviour is not about you – it’s about HIM.
Please don’t wonder why he doesn’t want you or if you can change his mind. Please ask yourself why you would want to – why would you want to have this man in your life, this man who uses and abuses you?
Please acknowledge his behaviour as abusive, mean and hurtful. He was abusing you. And not because of you. Because of him.
Please remain NC. And please be very careful entering a new relationship with anyone else.
Lacy, stay firmly NC. This guy is dangerous. Bleeding during sex is scary. End of. Engaging in 3ways if you don’t want to in order to get him to like you also scary. He is a very dangerous guy. Is there a close friend or relative that you can confide in that can help you seek counseling? You have to stay NC for your own safety. His demands are utterly unreasonable and abusive. Think love, respect, and trust. Nothing you have written indicates he loves and respects you. I hope you will seek some help in getting out of this abusive situation. He is out of the ball park scary. A MONSTER.
Lacy, there was a quote I read recently, it was ‘depression is anger without enthusiasm’. Give yourself permission to be angry in it’s own right. You have plenty to be angry with this AC, and the conditioning you recieved somewhere in your past that contributed to allowing yourself to be in this situation should also be railed at. But do it with guidance from your therapist so that you can find a way to get through it in a healthy way. Love and Hugs, baby steps forward to love yourself from now on.
Another timely post!!
This whole craving to be liked thing is another big sack of crap that I’ve been lugging around with me since childhood. I was always too loud, too clumsy, weird, etc. too “something” to fit in with the “cool kids”. Growing up in a family where I felt that nobody had my back – caused a lot of bad habits.
I kept trying to get everyone to “like me” because I was so full of self-loathing and self-doubt that well… it just plain sucked to be me.
The only time I ever felt happy, where I liked “Me” was when I was on stage performing music or theater. Weird huh? I never had a problem getting up on stage singing in front of a dark auditorium full of strangers but put me in a classroom full of my peers and I felt like a pariah.
Anyway, I managed to work through a lot of this over the last x number of decades, but that sack of crap was always there begging me to pick it up when I was faced with a situation where I really wanted to “fit in” or “be accepted” by someone or some group …
Long story short – as part of my social networking “diet” and shit kicking “virtual” (unavailable) people out of my life I just started going to meetup events and talking to strangers.
Over the last month something strange has happened..
I realized that part of my problem was that I was stuck in this same 16-year-old mindset where I wanted to fit into social groups where I really didn’t belong because these people were NEVER going to accept me unless I magically transformed myself into something I’m not.
For a long time I was a social chameleon – I would try to change my “colors” to match whatever group I was in instead of just being myself. In relationships, I would adapt to whatever interests the guy I was dating was into – and set aside my own interests just so I didn’t seem “different”.
It was crazy, codependent, boundary-smashing behavior.
I’ve spent the last month going out and meeting people – all sorts of people – some older than me, some my age, and some younger. Because I’ve always been paralyzed by trying to interact with “strangers” one one one (for fear they would not “like me”) I just pretended that these “meetups” were a work event and my goal was to network, be pleasant and professional, don’t overshare (practice good boundaries),etc.
I know this probably sounds weird, but it got me over the hump. The last 2 “meetup” groups I went to were really nice. I had very nice conversations with total strangers, (even men!) that didn’t involve me telling my entire life story in the first 10 minutes, or putting on some fake show trying to be this or that…just being me.
MAN this is hard when you’re not used to it – but what’s funny is that when I got home from these events I didn’t have that same sickening sense of paranoia about whether or not these folks “liked me” or not. They were lovely events where I talked to people and then went home.
Because this wasn’t all about me trying to “fit in”, there was no feeling of being “let down”.
Man.. this still feels weird but getting out of my old way of thinking and old way of behaving (and completely flushing my concept of usual “type” of man that I would consider dating) was necessary.
Natalie’s book, and BR have been a real eye opener for me!
Amy
I could have written your post! Oversharing, in an attempt to make people like me, has been a bad habit of mine too. If they don’t immediately show that they really like you it’s upsetting because you put so much of yourself in. You bared your soul!
It’s also a misconceived attempt to force an immediate deep connection/friendship. Its like any other kind of relationship, they, and we, need to “unfold”.
I’ve joined a couple groups relating to my interests over the last year. My goal was to keep going, as in the past I’ve tended to give up quickly if i didn’t immediately feel “comfortable” and accepted. Well it wasn’t great right away, but my comfort levels with these people have increased, I no longer feel anxiety beforehand and *I*am beginning to really like some of *them*.
I loved this whole paragraph Amy:
“I had very nice conversations with total strangers, (even men!) that didn’t involve me telling my entire life story in the first 10 minutes, or putting on some fake show trying to be this or that…just being me.
MAN this is hard when you’re not used to it – but what’s funny is that when I got home from these events I didn’t have that same sickening sense of paranoia about whether or not these folks “liked me” or not. They were lovely events where I talked to people and then went home.
Because this wasn’t all about me trying to “fit in”, there was no feeling of being “let down”.”
That was so instructionally rich; you really broke it down. Part of being enjoyable to others is actually…interacting with others! It is not a dog and pony show with all of us trying to be “amusing” or “interesting”.
I struggle with that myself. I have a very vibrant personality in person, I am very warm, but I feel like I am a bit schizo; I clam up around others who are really loud, and I talk too much around those who are timid. I need to find a balance.
That was really helpful!:)
Amy, I have the opposite problem: I used to be a yes woman with friends, and because of that, I actually under-shared information with others. I have a habit of keeping quiet if I feel like it creates less conflict, AND I hated opening up to people. Now I’m working on finding that balance between sharing more and sharing too much, depending on who I meet.
Recently my 3 sisters & myself got together to talk about our aging mother and her needs in regards to health care. Let me first say were are all very opinionated women who have no problem telling each other what we think on any subject whether our opinion or advice is wanted or not. Its always been the same 2 against the same 2 our whole lives and no one would ever think of betraying the other by defecting to the other side. And I have always been the peacemaker of the bunch.
So armed with lots of information which we all had gathered respective of our professions ie: legal, medical, financial and educational we set out to determine what was best for our mother.
Two hours went by and as usual lots of talking, little listening and nothing accomplished. Expect for me, I said little and neither agreed or disagreed with any of them even my ally. When finally asked why I had been so quiet I said “I’m Switzerland” in all of this.
In my journey of healing I’ve come to realize that in trying to be liked by everyone in my family and trying to play peacemaker was too exhausting and furtile at best. Before the meeting I had acknowledge to myself the part I’ve played in our family dynamics over the years and that I wanted no part of that game anymore. My only concern is for my mother and her welfare.
Being liked or not liked is of no concern to me anymore no matter who it involves. I’m trying to live my life by my own values irregardless of others. As Shakespeare said “To thine own self be true”
MaryC, I was doing the same in the past. Trying to be the “peacemaker” in the family. And yes, it’s just too exhausting and practically a mission impossible. Now I decided to live my life the way I want to and as far as I’m concerned they can go kill each other, I don’t care:) Good for you for sticking to your values and boundaries!:)
OMG, did this come at a right time! Just yesterday I was chatting on some dating site with a guy that, two weeks ago, kept bugging me for my phone number and then when I actually gave it to him, he called once and then I haven’t heard from him anymore. Anyway yesterday I clicked him on chat because I saw he was online — and OMG, what an asshole! Arrogant, self-righteous, with an ego blown out of proportions. He was really rude and told me I wasn’t able to have a normal conversation with him (I admit, I did start the conversation a bit nastily, saying what he’s still doing on that site because he told me it’s total crap) etc. etc. The conversation ended with me deciding to opt out of this fiasco for good … and he had the audacity to say this in the end: “And don’t try to contact me ever again!” And you know what? I don’t give a shit what he thinks of me because he doesn’t know me! And I wouldn’t want to ever be with an asshole like him!!! I mean, the people you meet online … It’s just sad … Anyway, just wanted to say: of course I want to be liked, but not by someone I haven’t ever met in person, but seems to know everything about me! Urgh …
Oh yes, very familiar territory for me. Always wanting to be liked. auditioning, campaigning. No more. I also choose me.
And….I did it! I booked my holiday. I am travelling in Italy later this year. My daughter is furious that I am investing time and money in/on myself but I earnt it and I am spending some of it on me. Before BR I would have caved in. I would rather have felt I was liked than rck teh boat by doing something for myself. It just leaves you feeling anxious/angry/bitter. I have spent so long thinking something was missing from my life, and now I think what was missing was actually me. The authentic me who doesn’t try to conform to everyone else. It feels scary to just be myself. Maybe that is because if you are putting on a big act and you are rejected, then it wasn’t really you that was rejected was it. But if you are being yourself and you are rejected, then ouch!
Thanks so much Natalie. This is one for the favourtites.
I teach college and I got my students’ appraisal of me several weeks ago. On the whole, it wasn’t bad, but it wasn’t fantabulous either – though I got some pretty awesome comments 😉 Ah well, I can’t please everyone and I don’t intend to. Your post is a timely reminder about what’s important. I just need to be me. If they like me, great. If they don’t, life still goes on.
My ex told me he liked me, he loved me. Everything about me, in fact. Umm … apparently not enough to walk the distance with me. But then again maybe he “loved” me too much to get me involved with a nutcase like him.
I’m learning to like all of me, and that is what I really need to do.
Thank you, Nat for this post, especially 🙂
The article makes sense but I honestly don’t know how to go about liking myself. I have had CBT and now I’m seeing a new psychologist. I have tried antidepressants. Nothing helps me like myself. I have a small group of friends who genuinely like me, but I feel almost as if I’m showing them a false version of me. Otherwise why do they like me?
I have terrible track record with men. I don’t like the men who like me; I think they must be a freak. I want the attention of the men who don’t like me or who only want me for sex. I have got the hang of avoiding them, but that is the only progress I made. I recently had a date with a very nice and respectable man who didn’t want to meet again because of “lack of chemistry”. It floored me even though logically I know that it shouldn’t – I’ve met plenty of men who I haven’t fancied, just not my type. But this felt like a terrible, massive rejection. It was awful. And then I hated myself even more for reacting like that. It’s a vicious cycle.
Please, how can I learn to like myself? Really, genuinely accept myself??
Hi Mary, don’t give up hope, you’ve eloquently outlined the problem very succintly. Under your prose I see what you are dealing with because I have suffered from this very thing myself. You are not tapping into your authentic self. Probably at some point you internalized a message that ‘you’ weren’t good enough, since then you’ve probably been trying to be something you’re not to gain approval and in the process lost touch with who you are. I know when I was (and probably still do to a point) locked in this place I was ultimately rejecting myself, not honouring my needs wants and desires, nevermind my boundaries and values. They were all being sacrificed to be liked because I didn’t like me. Now, the vicious cycle is that you are rejecting yourself, so are only attracted to men who reject you because that confirms the belief you have underneath that says you are not worthy. I HAVE this dialogue too. I just realized, the rejection from outside impacts so hard because it is a raw wound that is already inside (rejecting self constantly) that it is hitting, so it feels REALLY painful, more so than if the same impact hit a non injured part of you. I think I’m rambling a bit, but I hope you get my jist. This is something I’m still working on with my therapist, and I thank you for sharing so that I can articulate this piece at learn from it too. Regardless, hang tight, it can get better, just keep reading, treat yourself and regard yourself as the beautiful woman you are. Go ahead and ask your friends what they like about you. Don’t dismiss it, thank them for it and feel the goodness that comes from it. After neglecting yourself for so long it will take some time to get used to accepting compliments and doing good for you, but after a while it will come naturally. Baby steps and don’t be afraid to ask for help – a therapist is a good start because they are there for you wholeheartedly and can help start the process as to how to accept the good and not the bad messages that we are all bombarded with everyday.
Perhaps the CBT is not helping you to identify and address your core beliefs.
Perhaps look at it from some different angles. Ask yourself why you don’t like you, and answer honestly.
You note that you have terrible track record with men and want the attention of the men who don’t like you.
Do you make other people responsible for your feelings?
Do you make other people responsible for your self worth?
Do you use others rejection as justification?
Have you examined why?
Do you use self-judgement or other behaviour such as addictions to avoid responsibility for self?
Have you taken the time to explore your beliefs and resulting behavior?
What is it about you that you don’t like?
Where did your beliefs come from? E.g. Is there an event or thought pattern that has caused you to believe what you do about yourself?
If you do not feel like you are a good person, what or whose metric are you using?
Are you comparing yourself to other people and/or their accomplishments?
Are you measuring your self worth using someone else’s scale or ideal?
Are you not forgiving yourself for things you did in the past?
If there are things you did that you do not forgive yourself for, are you not allowing yourself that forgiveness as a kind of punishment/addiction?
Are you using/allowing things you did/didn’t do (or things other people said/did to you), to define you as a person, i.e. “I am” vs “I did”
Are you correlating past/isolated actions with your perception of self? I did/didn’t do X, therefore I am a failure/bad person, etc.
Do you feel unworthy of your own forgiveness?
Do you know HOW to forgive yourself?
…
Hey Mary,
I firstly wanted to say that lack of chemistry does not mean that someone is not attractive, it just means lack of chemistry. Probably the cutest man I ever dated, who I had such admiration for, did not feel right, ever. It was like there was something missing-that “chemistry”. Yet he was so cute I was always wanting to drag him places to meet my friends ( I know shallow, I was only 28).
Please don’t take it personally because there was no chemistry; you don’t know what spark that man is looking for. He might love women who reject him and feel uncomfortable with women who are welcoming…he might have some weird “type” that few could fit…it is a crap shoot. Hugs:)
Mary, I have some very simple strategies. First, do you belong to a gym? Regular exercise helps focus you on you. If there isn’t a gym in your area, can you get out and walk? I do 45 hard minutes on the tread singing positive affirmations. Then, 20 minutes of lifting and followed by stretching. When it’s sunny, I hike to the beach. Fresh air and warm sun feels good. I’ve also started this routine with my face. I boil water and steam my face. It cleanses like nothing else. I follow the steam cleaning with a sugar scrub (2 tablespoons warm water and 1 tablespoon sugar). By that point, everything is steamed and exfoliated. Then mix two egg whites with some yogurt and smear it all over your face and leave it on for 15 minutes (it’s like an instant face lift) while you rub warm lotion all over your body. Wash the egg off your face and you will feel like a million bucks. Close your pores with Witch Hazel, so soothing. Steam cleaning and washing the egg off my face has been emotionally symbolic and wonderful for my skin. Then, I started craving broccoli, cauliflower, tomatoes, cucumbers and yogurt. It’s been a weird path to liking myself and it may not work for you or anybody. Reading BR morning and night for two years, reading Nat’s books, enrolling in the self-esteem e-course, being physically healthy, treating me with care, and paying attention to me has helped me to like me. After I spend all that time caring for me, I find I have less and less patience for disrespectful males. It’s like don’t clog up my pores with your grunge or eff with my mind because you want to get laid. That’s his problem, not mine. Trust me the first morning you wash egg off your face, you will feel better. And you’ll glow too!
Runnergirl, I just absolutely loved your post. The idea of doing this and how you describe this regimen is inspiring. And I love the images of feeling great after wiping egg off your face and bad news people clogging up your pores!
i broke up a couple of weeks ago with a new guy had been seeing for 2 months. in that brief relationship, i discovered a few things. here’s one of them, relevant to this post.
i suppress it when i don’t like something about somebody, particularly with men. they do/are something, i don’t like it, my brain notes the fact, but then i suppress it, probably because i worry that if i rule out this option, no others will be available to me.
THEN, i project onto that other person that THEY don’t like ME. which in an odd way is self-protective, rejecting myself before they can. but also what’s happening is that, because we can never really hide how we feel, i’m demonstrating in some way to them that i don’t like something about them, i’m letting them know that i don’t. and nobody likes that, so i go into denial that i don’t like something – all is see is that they don’t like the fact that i don’t like them so i make it all about my perception that they don’t like me.
confused? so was i. until i saw the whole syndrome clearly. wouldn’t it be easier to listen to my true feelings and get out of a situation, or flat out but gently say, hey, i don’t like this? instead of twisting things so that i am always the one who is accepted or rejected? can’t i accept or reject them? can’t i accept MYSELF and my true feelings? ever?
yes, i can. accepting ourselves and not being doormats means that we will sometimes have to say, “close, really close, but no cigar,” when we really don’t want to. we cannot blind ourselves to the fact that someone is not right for us. we need to be honest about how we feel, stay straight instead of pretzeling, and opt out.
Hi cc,
I’ve been wondering for a while now how things were going with you and the new guy. 🙂 I am sorry things didn’t work out, but it sounds like it was nonetheless a very useful mini-relationship, helping you understand yourself better. I understand completely what you mean about the circular nature of dislike – we dislike him, he feels it, it hurts him, he dislikes us back, and around and around. Add rejection anxiety into the mix and we can do a real number on our self esteem. You’ll find the real cigar soon enough. 🙂 Many hugs
Good to hear from you, cc.
This: “accepting ourselves and not being doormats means that we will sometimes have to say, “close, really close, but no cigar,” when we really don’t want to.”
So true. It’s like taking a multiple-choice test in school. Since answers “a” and “b” (much like assclowns) are totally ridiculous and so obviously the WRONG answers, you KNOW that it’s between “c” and “d.” But just because “c” has *some* truth in it (enough to confuse you), it doesn’t mean it’s the right answer. Comprende? (See, this is the kind of shit my brain comes up with when I get adequate sleep. Scary, isn’t it?)
Anyway, bottom line: good for you for opting out of a “not-totally-fucking-train-wreck-wrong-however-not-right-enough-to-work” scenario. Here’s to finding answer “d” eventually! Cheers, love.
Totally! My last three were like this. I suppressed the fact that I didn’t like something about them and it manifested itself into them rejecting me. The last guy I dated was nice and fun, I really did enjoy being with him but my subconscious could not overlook the fact that his heavy drinking really bothered me and the fact that our values did not line up. I tried to suppress these facts but the suppression came out in other ways causing him to break it off. And when he did, even though I was upset, I knew it had to end and calmly accepted it. But boy did I feel rejection and second guessed my standing up for myself when he had crossed my boundaries. I saw him out 3 times after that and he acted like I had rejected him. I don’t know if it was because of my subconscious actions or the fact that I calmly accepted the breakup and went total nc.
Hi cc, sorry to hear the relationship with the new guy didn’t work out for you. However, congratulations for staying straight with you, liking you, and opting out when it didn’t work out. Dang close but no cigar. It’s good to see that this is a disappointment but not the end of the world. If things aren’t right, call it, and move on. I do the suppression thing thing with men too, although I’ve noticed that my flush trigger is getting quicker than my suppression trigger. I messed up last week and entertained one phone call from a loser, suppressing his boundary busting stupidity. I promptly flushed on the second phone call, took maybe 15 seconds. Stay straight cc.
snow, sm,revs, runner-
hello, there, bunnies. ((hugs)) it feels good to know i have you on my side.
snowboard – i’m touched you were wondering about me, made me feel all warm!
and…this circular nature of dislike – i realize now how so many anger reactions i’ve had in the past, for which i used to blame myself entirely, are actually triggered by THE GUY’S unhealthiness. its as if they do something i don’t like or i subliminally feel them pull away…and instead of consciously saying, hey, i don’t like that or acknowledging it internally and just taking care of myself, i suppress my reaction, but now i KNOW on some level that the deal is likely broken and that it can’t work, and i don’t like that news either, so i suppress that too, and i want them to fix reality to my liking, which they can’t, and i suppress that reaction too, and then it all comes roaring out of me in an overreaction bitchfest – which means i’ve played myself and given them ammunition against me, which is STUPID. how ironic, since it was my wisdom rejecting the situation. if i can learn to listen to that in the first place, i’ll be so much better off.
it is odd to just let the truth be there without drama, it’s relieving and a little too profound at the same time. but i’m discovering i can handle it. and yes, i think this is what is supposed to happen – we learn, hopefully without too much angst, let go and move on.
revs- cheers back to you! yes, “d” is elusive, but that doesn’t mean a, b, and c are viable once we know they’re not.
sm- yep, that’s it. i was worried no one would know what the heck i was talking about. and now when i look back i can see HOW MANY time i, to use your word, manifested rejection of me through MY rejection of THEM! i see, said the blind girl.
runner – yeah, i’m getting quicker at flushing too. this one was pretty fast and astonishingly drama-less. it is not easy to stay straight, but once we figure out how we’re twisting ourselves up and really SEE it, there’s really no other choice.
more hugs
Hi Mary. First of all what is CBT? I should know it, but don’t. You’ve mentioned starting with a new therapist. That can’t hurt, unless the person is totally unqualified to give therapy. Just because a person has a degree doesn’t mean he/she is right for the job. As you continue, assuming your therapist is a good fit for you,you will become stronger emotionally, but it won’t be instantaneous. It will take time. I’ve found that the more I engage in activities that I very much enjoy, I feel better all around. I’m trying to
find the positive qualities that I possess instead of lamenting over my inadequacies. Also, the people you spend time with can help you feel better about yourself or hinder you. Strive to be around people who not only make you feel good, but are genuine healthy for your association with them.
I never thought I could get to a point of loving myself, but I’m getting there slowly but surely. Sometimes, I revert back to “THAT OTHER PERSON”, but that is normal, and it’s never to the original point. When that happens you know you are making progress. Just stick with it. Stay away from ACs and EUMs and you should feel better about yourself eventually. Don’t concern yourself about other people’s opinions about you. We all have our faults. Just work on making the improvements on what is important to YOU. Remember, you are unique. Nobody else can ever be you. Always do your best to help others in fulfilling their goals. When you come out of yourself, look around you, think and do positive things, you continue to feel better. And, don’t take yourself too seriously. Nine times out of ten, other people are not noticing what you feel you may be lacking. They’ve got their own problems. I hope my words of encouragement helps you. All the best. Tink.
As a sales rep my entire career, I’ve learned that everyone wants to be liked, everyone. And as a matter of fact, being liked is the key to succeeding in certain professions. But I’ve learned that people who operate under boundaries, integrity and treating people with respect and consistent behavior is far better than what I call the ‘rock star’ attention. I used to come in and immediately command attention, which does not last long. Now that I operate under boundaries and consistent behavior, it’s a slower process of winning people over but it never goes away. And it’s been further driven home to me because my work partner is still of the rock star sort and will bend over backwards to be liked, his business is a roller coaster ride while mine continuously climbs slow and steady. These same principals work on personal behavior too. I have finally realized my worth since I started reading BR 18 months ago. I’m operating under boundaries, integrity,consistent behavior and I expect the same from people I date. I have also realized some other things, I am no slacker far from it to be exact and I expect the same of the people I date. I’m in my 40s and I am no longer going to have sympathy for some guy my age who’s life is falling apart because they continuously make poor decisions.
I feel the same, SM. My anxiety used to have me looking for big ways to show my talent at work/school as soon as I showed up, and I could get attention but would inevitably stress out over trying to maintain a rock-star role.
At this job I have had some anxiety around “just” doing my job to the best of my ability and not much more than that. But I get now that those people who are looking for whether I’m stable over the long term will see my stability over the flash, and those who look for flash may overlook me. I’m increasingly fine with that. Especially when I ask myself how much I really like the folks who seem to value flash first.
Mag you said it, I am overlooked now by the people who want the flash and I have had to learn to be ok with it. And you just made me realize something, I have never really liked the people who want the flash first, not even romantic prospects.
“We’re at our happiest when we practice self-acceptance instead of our perception and treatment of us being conditional.”
Great post. I’ve found that first I had to decide what my boundaries were and since I rarely had them this was a learning experience, then I had to enforce them which was another huge leap. I used (still do sometimes) to get upset when someone would try to bust my boundaries or not agree with them because I had the idea that by having boundaries, I would get automatic respect. I had it skewed. Having boundaries was to ensure I have respect for myself, not to convince others I was worth it. What I’ve learned is that trying to enforce boundaries wasn’t enough for me, I had to have self respect behind it otherwise the assertion of them was still a way of trying to earn respect and being liked. It still wasn’t about me at the root of it, it was still about other people. Shifting to doing what truly is best for me instead of doing what I thought would earn me respect has made the difference. Believing in my values and boundaries made others believe in me too, as result of caring about myself, not what they think. By making misplaced improvements in my life completely fueled by how other people perceived me instead of how I saw me I was still chasing my own tail in the ‘like me like me’ game. I think that when we have low self esteem, it takes going through these stages to find our way out. It isn’t instant ‘just add water’ like magic sea monkeys. It more like watering a flower seed, with time and care it will bloom.
Selkie, perfectly stated and right where I am at the moment. Once I finally figured out my boundaries and started to enforce them (talk about giant leap), I thought it would be “just add water”, funny movie BTW. You are spot on. It’s about self-respect/self-esteem. Enforcing my boundaries has helped build my self-respect and given me more strength in enforcing my boundaries. It’s like a healthy loop instead of the “like me like me” loop. Just writing that conjured up how much I busted everything to get him to choose me. That campaign failed. He didn’t choose me. I lost that election. And I’m grateful!
With most people I come across I don’t need to be liked, but respected. With guys, I don’t need or expect to be liked by all of them, but when we both like each other, I do need to be liked by that specific one, or need to hear his feelings have changed. It’s bad enough to lose that but it’s devastating when he just disappears and there’s no closure, it takes way longer to get over. Do the right thing.
I thunk I am finally starting to get it. I have not been living MY LIFE. I have to afraid of it, afraid of making mistakes. If I asked someone what to do, they told me and it didn’t work out… I got to say, see, you we’re wrong and it’s not my fault this happened. I have been in such a state of fear, rejection, abandonment,disproval and the like I have not lived at all. What I didn’t get was that all of those things were going to happen anyway. I wasn’t really avoiding anything except me. I have been trying to avoid being responsible for anything, especially myself. I thought it was too late, it’s never too late to chose you and like you, irespective of whatever else is going on around you. It’s time for me to begin the journey and find out who I am. Thank you Natalie and all of the great ladies here.
Big lifetime project for me. I grew up in a critical household where I wasn’t good enough and told I hadn’t achieved enough. I married a disapproving, emotionally disengaged man who was not there for me and never related to any part of my emotional self or needs. I learned to be hypervigilant and guarded in order to protect myself. That limited me in lots of ways and sucked up a lot of energy. I have had problems with envying others who seemed to be more popular or acceptable than I was. I have felt hurt when I haven’t got recognition for what I thought I deserved. At the same time in other ways I had a strong sense of self, good insights a lot of the time (except maybe about what was going on inside lol) and what I thought was right. I like my sensitivity and awareness. I expressed it and did stuff anyway. But I suffered because I wasn’t “easy” with my OWN self. This was a deadly combination and if a situation was really demanding and rejecting this sent me into a tailspin. I have wasted time in my life on very stupid situations and people. I am actively working on this now with a work situation.
I am getting better at observing these dynamics in myself – to know what is going on with me. I still take it too personally when somebody treats me badly out of the blue or indicates they don’t like me. I still try “too hard” in certain situations. But sometimes now I can just observe myself, emotionally (and sometimes physicall) just step aside and stop trying. That really feels GOOD. I am trying to let go of this stuff. It’s pretty deep – I have Florence Nightingale tendencies – I think I want something in return (like love, praise, acceptance). I am doing more “assessments” of my motivation now and trying to step back and see the bigger picture. One thing I have learned from BR is how I have used my energy and where I don’t want to waste it anymore.
expresso; I really identify with what you speak of in the first part of your post, except I never married – close a couple of times a long time ago, but I think in retrospect they were close calls, but I degress. I have also been very hypervigilant and over protective, but that kept others at bay and left me starving emotionally. The flipside was then chosing the wrong people to ‘let in’ who would then just confirm my hypervigilence and protectiveness. I’ve also wasted too much energy on these invalidating modes of existence and that could be much better spent on myself. Bravo for recognising what doesn’t work for us anymore!
Thanks Nat for a wonderful post. It made the hairs on my neck stand up. For a long time I didn’t care whether someone liked me or not. I have very few friends (that is my choice), since I don’t really put myself out there to make new friends. My co-workers only matter as it relates to doing our jobs, so their personal feelings about me aren’t really that important. That is, until I got involved in the casual relationship with my co-worker. Once his behavior became inconsistent with me, some things that he would say to me and the way that we interacted at work began to affect me deeply. I realized that someone who “really liked me” as he said, would not treat me that way. I could not officially call him on it at work, because I didn’t want to arouse the suspicion of others, and because my facial expression usually did the talking for me, because he would apologize for hurting my feelings. And I think I mentioned previously that our communication was virtually non-existent, so talking to him outside of work was not a possibility. So now I’m wondering why it is important for someone to like me when he clearly shows that he may “like” me (when he wants to hit it) but doesn’t care anything about me? Why does this even matter? I know who I am: a 45 year old woman who is still finding my way, still making less than favorable decisions for myself (because I’m always hopeful that this time will be different), yet still a pure hearted individual who is very cognizant of the way I treat others because I strongly believe in karma. Somehow I have lowered myself to not only being used for sex, but concerning myself with being liked by an insincere, selfish, and immature 35 year old whom I’m giving way too much credit, and too much control over my feelings. That isn’t good enough for me. I don’t need the stress. I want to be able to sleep through the night. I want to stop wasting my tears and my brain cells trying to figure out why he behaves this way, how I’m going to get through each workday seeing him when I want to just ignore him totally. I have to free myself of the need to be liked by him, because he isn’t worthy of me. So when it comes to having someone like me — I am who I am, so as long as I like me, others can take it or leave it.
Sanntay
Sorry about your situation – I’ve twice had “office romance gone sour” situations. The first one I ended up having to find another job, cos the guy really was an AC hellbent on making me miserable. The second situation he was really an okay guy, so although it was difficult and painful, and I was sad because I had really liked/loved him, I didn’t need to do that. The first one, I would never speak to him as long as I live, the second I would have no difficulty vein pleasant if we ever happened to bump into each other. (but no desire to do that). I would suggest treating your work life as “playing a role” – focus on acting distant, professional and polite. Mentally consider yourself as wearing a smooth, blank, AC repelling mask.
FWB arrangements are difficult – I havent really ever tried that, but I have had one night stands, and found them sad and humiliating enough.
Hey Selkie,
Your comments made a lot of sense – when I first discovered BR I thought I didn’t have any boundaries but now I believe I always have but never enforced them. I still struggle with this and the main reason I struggle is because the other person would be unhappy with me and I find setting boundaries that doesn’t lead to conflict nigh on impossible
Natalie, I’m starting to worry …
I’m starting to think you are living inside my mind..
Because everything you post, is relevant to my week, and the self development work I am doing on myself.
So Natalie, are you “BIG BROTHER??”, do you have the secret code to enter my mind .. if you do, I would be worried, it’s a mess in there!!!!
But with your wisdom encouraging me, lighting the way, I am slowly climbing to the top of the mountain and will be able to send those assclowns scrambling !!!
Thanks again Natalie, for amazing post that speaks to my heart … 🙂
@Lacy, the word “puppet” comes to mind after reading your post. Why are you trying so hard to please this moron of a boy? He wants a booty call. That’s it. It has nothing to do with who you are, or whether or not you’re ‘likable’.
He is interested in the sex. That’s just how some people roll. It’s nothing personal, so don’t go trying to ‘figure him out’, and every little thing he says or does and believing it has anything to do with you. It doesn’t. You’re barking up the wrong tree… Let him go and use someone else, wait for the one who wants to get to know ‘you’
and makes it about ‘you’, not just the sex.
Thks for the input its just been hard to except that wherever we did or didn’t have has come down to this,He begged me sevaral times to be in a relationship with him and I said I wasn’t ready that I was scared,My friend had told me he was living with a woman at the time.She knew because she worked with his sis also she said he had a baby on the way.So when he asked me to move in and be back together I said no but never asked about the stuff I heard but,where I went wrong is still engaging with him he moved clothes in and was at my house everyday looking back now the woman he was living with probably had kicked him out he was at my house 2 yrs straight off and on with us having disagreements also but basically he lived there without me agreeing officially. He said he love me and want to be with me and my kids forever we would raise our kids together cause at this point he was only letting me be aware that he had 3 kids 2 he had long ago before we meet and 1 he and I had broke up for and lost touch for a yr I had already had my 2 older kids when I met him and so did he,and when we lost touch he had a new child and so did I, this is a long story,but I feel mislead and now he’s back with the woman that my friend said he lived with she told me I asked him he said No.I just keep thinking if I had said yes would things be different and what is it about me that seems as though he doesn’t like me anymore. As he was at my house at that time things start coming out the to light.
The lady would call and call and he said it wasn’t nothing.We went to his mom house and his daughter was there and another baby in a car seat I asked who baby was that he said he didn’t know,so I didn’t ask anymore til mths later After failing nc which lasted maybe 2 weeks he kept calling so he text that he miss my son he want to take him to the beach I should go I said no.When they got back We talked he said that anybody he was with was just sexual and they know he loves me he want us to work on us.His phone was ringing and so he showed me a woman not the woman he had suppose to lived with at ine point was telling him to please bring milk for the baby.He said that he had a son with her and they were never together if he had his way she wouldn’t have had it and that he wasn’t milk at 1am ,I told him he should it wasn’t right and he wind up back at my house. The woman he lived with at one point I’m assuming it was her cause her num just would constantly pop up .So I read text of her saying she live him and to come to church and he said yes,so she called and I answered his phone and she hung up so I text her,which was stupid on my part she responded but wouldn’t engage too much. He found out and I asked me if I wouldn’t bother his phone that I was childish I asked him why he never told me about her,he said cause its nothing we argued and didn’t speak for a few days for him to come back.A few days later I went through his phine again I was hurt
Getting back together or had never really broke it off and she would say stuff and he would have similar responds like how he would respond to me, asked him about her he said that I should focus on us and he comes home to me every night. I was irritated so I text her on his phone and she didn’t say much ,and I know it wasn’t right,I was hurt. He didn’t find out til after he had went out he bout went to her house he text me and said I am too much drama and on his kids he not ever gone see me again. I was hurt I sucked it in and didn’t contact him and that I put on my children and not even 2 weeks later he was texting me said its his new num to cime meet him he want to see me he had bad news that he would have to go to jail for a few yrs about 6 mths from now.I ran to see him I asked him what is going on he said he said he don’t know either he loves me too much he won’t be without me. Yet we still been up and down ever since then started the weird sex demands I guess he just officially back with that woman and want me fir sex but he said thats not it, I don’t want that so I don’t call him or go anywhere he’s at,then he starts calling me and text said that I was a Bitch for not responding he brought me Christmas presr and if I didn’t answer he would give it away said he hate he even got it for me anyway.I keep feeling like I missed out on something good and I know I caused drama, and I feel now I just don’t want to feel like I’ve lost.
Oh, Lacy, you haven’t missed out on anything but your own life and your own goodness by being involved with this guy. He is NO good.
Get far enough away from him to start to clear your head.
Once again I have to say thank god for BR. I have been doing really well maintaining professional NC. This time I’ve kept ALL of our correspondence strictly about business, and have successfully ignored any of his attempts to break it. I forced myself not to give these attempts any meaning and have concentrated on getting on with my life. I’ve been very busy getting ready for my new university, I’ve had my haircut (I haven’t bothered in months), have started to eat well and have felt positive. He appears to have got the message and has also acted professionally. Today, however, I received an email from him and although most of it related to our work he added that he was applying for a job in the US (we are in Australia). This has temporarily thrown me and I’m hurting a bit. I will not, however, break my resolve. I’m determined to push through whatever it is that is hurting me and carry on moving forwards. To help me I applied Natalie’s words in this post (2nd paragraph) and filled in the blanks and went from this:
“I’m afraid of him going and never seeing him again. I’m afraid that the last tie to my baby will be broken. I need to stop the anxiety by reaching out to him, which I think will help me to avoid feeling anxious and hurt”.
To this: “I’m afraid of him going and never seeing him again. I’m afraid that the last tie to my baby will be broken, but I’m going to go ahead and do what’s best for me and my future and that does not involve a married AC”.
I am so determined to look to the future, but I cried today.
Lilly. A little cry now & again is OK. I am not a crier in general but sometimes when I let my mind wonder down memory lane a few tears help wash away the sadness.
Him leaving the country would be a blessing really. U know there is no future so he might as well be as far away from you as possible. Out of sight , out of mind. Then again he may be playing mind games w/you to see your reaction..WHo knows with these AC’s.. Keep you chin up ,your doing great !!
Kit-Kat, Thank you so much for the encouragement. It also crossed my mind that he might be playing mind games, but he will never know how it affected me. It’s silly really, he’s on the other side of the country and I don’t see him anyway and I’m not planning too. It would make no difference at all if he was in another country! I’ve had my cry, now it’s time to pick myself up again and get on with it!
Lilly,
You are doing SO SO well. Dont give up now. I think him moving away might be the best thing – for YOU. For you to love you like crazy all over again and to start some many nurturing things. Its ok that you cried, it would hurt me too and we are only human. You have done so well, when you are ready, you can pick yourself up and keep walking. I send you hugs.
Purplylily, Thank you for the encouragement and I most definitely will not give up. I think the secret is to keep busy and I would recommend this to others. At first I couldn’t get myself out of bed, but as times moved on I’m doing more and more. The more I do the less I obsess. Thank you for the hug and here’s one for you too.
Lilly —
I am so filled with admiration for you, and all that you are doing on your own behalf. I am not surprised you cried — of course you needed to, and you surely will again. But you know that your pain is NOT because this astoundingly assholic AC is actually worthy of one ounce of your regard! Losing him will only benefit you! When you reach out to him it INCREASES your anxiety! Stay away. Things will come ’round right for you in the future — we all know it — and eventually he will not be able to hurt you in any way.
I have never been in your exact position, and I don’t want to presume that I understand everything you are going through, but I’d like to suggest that the AC isn’t “the last tie” to your baby, and that the bond between you and your baby can never be broken by anything or anyone, and you honor your baby by severing ties with this man and thereby recovering your own true self!
Another thought: I have a single friend whose infant boy died years ago. She appointed another mutual friend as a kind of “Godmother” to him, after his death, and formalized it all with a ceremony of her own devising. It was beautiful. Now they both hold his memory precious from year to year, and she is not alone in her loss. Perhaps something like that would be helpful to you.
Hugs to you — this is so temporary, a transition — you are getting where you need to go — you will be happy!
SallyJane, thank you for your lovely post. I am getting to where I need to go, but it’s a painful process and some days it’s still a struggle. I try hard not to feel sorry for myself, but sometimes I could just cry and cry about losing my child. I don’t know why I view the AC as the last tie to my little one; he wasn’t around and he didn’t care. Sometimes I find myself drifting off to fantasy land and I think that maybe he is sorry for what’s happened. After all why does he still want contact with me so much? If I feel myself slipping I come here and give myself a dose of reality. I gain so much strength from this site; reading about other’s experiences and how they are coping. I will keep coming here until the AC is complete history and then, hopefully, I can help others like you have helped me. The idea of having a “Godmother” is beautiful, thank you.
ZOMG I heard the crocodile from Peter Pan just swim past! Oh wait, nope, it’s just this FUCKING AWESOME POST. Tick tock indeed, Nat.
I’ve got a work sitch on my hands at the moment I’ve been hanging back from dealing with for this very reason. Tomorrow morning a very young, very popular male who has been subtly undermining me at work is going to have a very sore ass, and it sure won’t be from me kissing it. Haters gonna hate. Too bad so sad, asshole. I’ve had it with your dudebro bullshit.
PS Miskwa, I want to see the movie they make out of the book someone had better be writing about you. Who would be baddass enough to play you though?
Urgh, Ms. Determined, I’ve had similar experiences at work recently (from a slightly older male) who thinks he’s the proverbial shit. I don’t know why I always end up having to interact with cocky males, but I find they are just usually threatened by any woman who won’t worship them/are obviously more badass than they are.
YOU KICK THAT ASS! Kick it good 🙂 Haha
I did have a moment this week: I stuck up for myself to a coworker in an email and she ended up apologizing to me! What was kind of exciting was that my email was very frank but reasonable and at one point I said “I stand by this email, and everything in it.” It felt really good to say that. We ended up talking and she sent me an email and apologized. I do not know if it was sincere but I do know that confronting her was the right thing to do and also, saying that I was okay with what I had said, felt like the right thing to say. In the past I think I would have gone overboard placating her, thinking that that would get her to shut up, but really, people who are pushy actually sometimes respond decently to being pushed back on; what a revelation!
I am never going to let someone bully me again. Ever.:)
Awesome, DancingQueen!!
Thank you Courtney! Awesome right back at ya:)!
Good article Natalie:) Funny enough from 2013 I started to feel that I do not give a sh@t if someone likes me or not, the most important I like myself!
Great post Nat!
It reminded me of another of your post in which you said something along the lines of ‘Why do you get so upset about someone not liking you or excluding you when, deep down, YOU don’t really like THEM?’ That was really liberating for me.
Amy – I really identified with your post – in my case, a childhood spent as part of a family with people who basically aren’t very nice to you, produced an adult who didn’t like herself and tried way too hard to be liked by the people I wanted to like me, rather than the people I really truly LIKED.
Once I realised that I wanted to be liked by people I really LIKED (rather than feared, needed, saw as cool/powerful/popular, EVERYTHING changed for me. I quickly started to like myself more because I was choosing to spend time with people based on my core values, not my fears, Sure I have fewer friends now but they are real friends not people who I want to be associated with, hoping their value will rub off on me.
The friends I have now are real friends, they like me for who I am and I like me too. So I’m less dependent on their approval and that means less pressure on a friendship. I let it go where it goes. Amy’s tip about using business socialising skills at Meetups is great – I do that all the time and it really works for me.
Good luck everyone and remember: don’t waste your time trying to make people like you if deep down YOU don’t really like THEM!
LACY–this is not a “man”–in the world I live in, we call something that fits that description a cockroach. I can only hope you will heed the strong wisdom here on BR and get yourself the help you need to stay away from that thing. I have to say your posts troubled me greatly and I will be channeling some good energy your way in hopes that you move totally away from that scene. As Natalie says, “Have your own back”–really think deeply about what these words mean…and by any means necessary, get the help you need to do so. Get Better.
Thank u wise owl I do need some positive energy,I know my life is out of order and I’m sorry for making u and anyone else feel down about my situation.I just have to keep my mind set on changing and leaving the situation alone.
Lacy, I’m sending some more positive energy your way. You can get out. If you can’t do it for you at first, do it for your kids. They need you. You are NOT missing out on anything. This guy has nothing to offer except drama, trauma, and grief. Drop kick him.
Just recently had a meeting with a friend whom I haven’t seen in a long long time who came into town…and it was a mistake, I should’ve listened to my instincts.
The truth is, this friend and I had always been incompatible in terms of beliefs, values and boundaries, but because I had known her for so long, I didn’t want to miss the chance of seeing her again/being rude. Typical people-pleasing behavior.
Lo and behold, she spent the three hours we spent together mostly talking about her new relationship and how happy she is. She also made several comments which were judgmental coming from her religious background, imposing those views on me. Even when I tried to change the topic slightly, she would always bring it back (in a quite irrelevant way, I might add,) back to this relationship.
I totally get why people do this, I am happy they’re happy, but to spend three hours talking only about this, when you KNOW your friend has gone through some bad shit in the past couple months, is not only inconsiderate, it’s downright mean.
It would be one thing if we only spent an hour basking in the happiness of her relationship. But three hours….there’s some boundary-busting going on there. Shame on me for not being assertive enough to find some way to tell her I just can’t handle this emotionally right now.
Maybe I am being selfish. But I think 3 hours is too much. And, after that conversation, I self-harmed (actual physical self-harm, not breaking NC), which I haven’t done in months. It made me feel so incredibly unhappy and terrible about myself.
I know this is as much my issue as it is hers, but I really wish people would be more mindful and considerate.
(Sorry, NML, for so much posting. My heart just goes out to all these women who are hurting so deeply.)
Courtney, wow! You are an example as to why Online relationships are not relationships because you can’t know someone through E-mail. Going only by your articulate posts and writing style, I would never have guessed that you self-harm. Honey, nobody–NOBODY–is worth your self-punishment (if that’s the reason why you self-harmed). Even your breaking your own boundaries isn’t worth your hurting you.
Do you know what, Courtney? There never was nor ever will be another you. No one in the universe has your DNA combined with life experiences and how you experience and live out your experiences (even identical twins have differing personalities.) Sure, you’re human so you share the same human qualities that we all share and, being a woman, you have the same biochemistry that all us women share, but you are truly unique as well (see above as to why). Being so unique, you are PRICELESS!!!
I come from an abusive background–verbal, emotional, physical, sexual, and even spiritual abuse. I haven’t directly self-harmed but have engaged indirectly through self-destructive habits because I didn’t care if I lived or died, didn’t know that my body, mind, heart, and soul is so precious, didn’t occur to me that no one else on earth has my DNA combinations and can experience my experiences for me and, thus, can put my mark on the world according to how I’m designed.
I don’t know what you need specifically and don’t know your reasons for self-harming and I don’t want to offend your spiritual beliefs so I hope you don’t mind but I’m going to say a prayer for you, ok?
Rosie, thank you so much for your comment and for sharing your experience with me. I am sorry to hear about your struggles but I hope BR has given you that great support system that it has given me. Although I am not religious, I really appreciate you saying a prayer for me and taking the time to write me a kind note of support.
My self-harm issues go way back and are not necessarily tied to any one person (although they can trigger self-harm). I come from an emotionally/psychologically (although thankfully not as much physically) abusive background/home dynamic which I am still exposed to. I’ve come to realize that self-harm is not just something that is performed by a certain type of person, but rather can be experienced by a variety of different people with their own backgrounds of trauma/maladaptive coping methods. That includes people like me who can otherwise feel and behave very put together on the outside/portray that image to the world but struggle deeply within. I haven’t self-harmed in months, but I believe the combination of stress, grief and this overwhelming meeting with an overbearing friend brought back a relapse into the painful self-punishing behavior.
It is actually as surprising to you as it is to me, because I’ve otherwise taken major strides towards self-care in this past year (therapy, meditating, journaling, strengthening my interpersonal relationships, opting out of relationships with EUM’s and AC’s, not having urges or engaging in self-harm emotionally or physically). However, it’s obvious I still have major work to do. Relapses like this are just a reminder that there’s still a lot of progress to be made 🙁 Until then, I will definitely try to remember what you said about uniqueness because I definitely agree! I don’t want to lose myself and the impact I can make on the world.
@ Courtney,
I am so so sorry that you had your self-harm incident; I would never have had guessed that you had that and I am so sorry how horribly your friend acted:(
Please get away from her; that is a sign, right there, when people are so toxic that we react by comforting ourselves in non-helpful ways…she should not be in your life:(
BIG BIG (((((((HUGS))))))))))
So sorry Nat for all my comments reading these post and replies make things come together,Thanks Nat and everyone.
I just want to add something here because this week I’ve had to say to several students on the self-esteem course, the same thing I’m going to say to you Lacy, Shyner and anyone else in these chaotic ‘relationships’:
Even Jerry Springer / Maury / the guy from Cheaters / Jeremy Kyle would balk at these tales. The question remains as to why the unacceptable has become acceptable and why there is lack of recognition converted into actions that translates into getting out of this chaos? This (the comments and analysing their behaviour) is the talk of someone who is trying to make sense out of crap. Crap is crap. You see someone behave in dodgy ways that reveals lack of character – what is there to analyse unless you’re looking for reasons to blame you or trying to find a way to continue?
Why do these relationships feel like ‘home’ to you that you can describe the assholery that these ‘men’ pull and not think ‘Hold up a frickin second here – this is some crazy shit!’
I know that none of you are crack addicts so why are you acting like these men are your last meal and like you have no options? These men are disgusting with their free range penises going around sexing and making babies they can’t even take care of.
*This*, all this crazy Jerry Springer type relationship stuff is not love or even a relationship. There comes a point where you need to recall every ounce of pride you have – *this* is that time.
Thanks Mymble for your feedback. I guess I should count my blessings that my work situation hasn’t progressed to the point where I need to leave–heck, I’ve been there nearly 17 years and won’t be chased away cuz I’m stronger than that. I will certainly heed your suggestion about “playing the professional role” because I cannot let him see that he has any kind of power over me. I so appreciate the support and encouragement on BR.
LACY–LISTEN TO NAT!!! A person who loves you won’t make you bleed. You were BLEEDING because of this…Thing Who Looks Human. Lacy, if you don’t have it in you to run away from him for yourself right now then do it for your children. Be strong for them. Start there & it will s-l-o-w-l-y transform into your doing it for you because you’ll see that you’re stronger than you thought you were. By abusing you, he’s abusing your children emotionally. Protect your children.
It’s interesting how people associate being nice with people-pleasing as my experience has been that niceness wins social disapproval. I’m nice–the real thing. In fact, everyone, and I mean everyone, even a certain person who doesn’t like me much, uses the same word for me: “sweet”. People seem to know it’s sincere, yet it’s still mistaken for weakness. I don’t get it. American culture rewards more self-serving, aggressive behavior. Yet, I believe it takes great strength to be nice (genuinely) and stay nice in a culture that views niceness as weak.
I wish I knew this years ago when I was approval-seeking by trying to be less nice.
Totally with you on that one, Rosie.
I’m with Miskwa on this… ‘Eff em all’ is a motto I’ve learned to live by after growing up as the kid with hand me down clothes & all manner of difference, meaning I never did ‘fit in’, right from the outset As I matured & learned what ‘fitting in’ meant to most at least ie a gender role I reject, I thought nahh… I’m very happy to tread my own path! Funnily enough, as I’ve grown older, I became the object, incredulously (to me), of envy, particularly from women who wanted the freedom I have in not being tied to the gender roles they thought would fulfill them , but discovered as life progressed, did not. So sad that women’s worst enemies are often other women. Needless to say, it was a male friend who taught me the motto ‘eff em all’. It’s truely one of the best pieces of advice I’ve ever learned to embrace! My time is too damned important chasing goals I think are important, to give a rats bum, about whether or not I’m liked by others. Rather, let them worry about whether or not I ‘like’ them instead!
Hey Teach,
Yeah, you just described me too. I will add the caveat that I take it a step further and sometimes instigate others who I think have their heads up their butts. I like to bait them a bit just because I get a little charge when they discover that I truly don’t give a crap what they think. It’s entertaining for me. It boggles the mind the kind of ludicrious ideas that some people have about what a happy, fulfilled person “should” look like. Plus, it’s nobody’s fucking business but mine. I don’t butt my nose into their lives, so it goes both ways.
I really think that it IS jealousy and insecurity on their part, because a lot of people are so tuned into managing how their life “looks” rather than allowing it to be more substantial. And I just never gave a crap about putting up a front, which I think enables me to do a lot of things with my life that people think is insane, but which are important to me. That way, I own my successes (sharing them with the ones who help me along the way) and also my big-ass mistakes (which are many). I can’t think of any other way of living where I wouldn’t feel suffocated and needing to chew off my foot to get away. Just my nature, I guess.
Okay, so there is a disclaimer to my earlier post. I DO care what a select few in my life think of me and my choices. But, and let me stress this, these people have EARNED that place in my life. I trust them to have always my back, and to give me constructive feedback when needed.
My mother is one of those people. I truly thank God every day that I have a mother who has been such a safe, comforting, accepting harbor to a daughter with such a stormlike personality.
Oh Revolution, you are so fortunate to have your mother as a safe, comforting, accepting harbor, no matter your “stormlike personality”. I am really trying to be that safe, comforting, accepting harbor for my young adult daughter as she experiences the storms of early adulthood. Hugs to you and a giant hug for your mum. It is tough on the mom end of things. I don’t want to enable her and I’m trying the best I can to able her! Motherhood is a tough road to hoe.
Runnergirl,
I have no doubt that motherhood is the toughest job there is. I’m in awe of you mothers. Talk about badasses. It gets no badder than that. (I’m talking the 80’s definition of “bad” where it actually means good.)
Hugs back at you and your daughter, hon. And just so you know, the fact that you are so concerned about providing that safe harbor for her says to me that you are doing it, and that she knows it. She’ll get through, but it’s baptism by fire with some of us. I’m sure she knows that you’re the home base, and that’s HUGE, as not everyone has that. I myself am very cognizant of that fact and, therefore, very grateful to have my mother.
PS you can imagine my shock at realising that OTHER WOMEN are often women’s worst enemies. It was all a but much for this unashamed radical feminist to bear, although I did eventually come to terms with this disturbing fact! (For more on this topic read Women’s Inhumanity To Other Women by Phyllis Chessler)
Snowboard, thankyou for the fitting Mother Teresa quote. Although I’m an atheist, she’s one of my hero’s & I draw much from her teachings (minus the God bits). I’ve actually worked with homeless men & women with nuns of her order in my home city & despite this being very ‘grassroots’ work, devoid of the accolades which I’ve experienced at much higher political, research & academic levels etc, it was this work, which stands out as one of the highlights, for me personally, of my career. In fact, I even recall dodging meeting dignitaries from China’s legal system, to spend the time with these nuns & their homeless charges instead. I never was one for poncing about. I told my boss at the time if they really wanted to see & know what I did, she should send the dignitaries to seek me out at the homeless shelters with the nuns & homeless people (ie I basically had more important things to be doing with people who really needed my assistance instead of wasting time schmoozing with silly dignitaries)! LOL
Is it possible that we have more than one role in our dramas? How about when you are Fallback Girl in one relationship (romantic or otherwise) and then you are AC in another one, etc.?
Meaning, being ‘the victim’ and ‘the prosecutor’ and ‘the defense’ and ‘the jury’ and ‘the judge’?
If we are all of that at different times and situations, how do we know which ‘role’ is the core of our problem?
Lacy, lacy, lacy.
Dear woman. Prepare yourself. I’m going to give you this straight up.
ARE YOU INSANE?
This man is talking about GOING TO JAIL & you are STILL INTERESTED IN HAVING HIM IN YOUR LIFE & feel you’ve ‘lost’ something? And he’s such a great catch as to have been dishonest about REALLY IMPORTANT THINGS like having a baby with another woman & WHY he might be going to jail ‘for a few years in 6 mths’?
GET A GRIP WOMAN!
If you don’t yet have enough self esteem to CARE about these RAGING RED FLAGS for yourself, THINK OF YOUR CHILDREN.
Is THIS the sort of MALE ROLE MODEL who is appropriate for your children? Do you want THEM growing up to think that GOING TO JAIL is ‘normal’ because, well hey, mum was happy enough to date / live with such a person? And worse, a person who LIED to their Mother & treated her like a doormat & total CRAP? Do you want your CHILDREN to grow up & choose similar partners (of whichever gender) b.c this is what YOU (not your douchbag partner) ROLE MODELLED for them?
The fact that you’re on BR suggests you ARE looking for some sort of change & a better life. That’s a GREAT start so I commend you on taking such initiative.
Please, if you’re not already doing so, take that a step further & move heaven & earth to get some counselling. I don’t know yr background, & it’s possible all you describe may seem althoygh stressful, somewhat normal or familiar to you. Let me emphasise Nat’s point. The problem here is YOU.
YOU need to ask yourself, what on earth you are thinking to see the possible loss of this man from yr life, as anything other than a HUGE BONUS.
I say all of that with deep respect. I KNOW some of us, (including ME), start out way behind the eightball in life. I don’t if that is your story or not, but regardless, please know, you AND your children deserve SO MUCH MORE.
YOU ARE WORTH IT LACEY.
Always remember that.
Hugs. T x
I’m really struggling at the moment. I have been messed about and let down by so many people. It just starts to dent my self esteem and confidence. I feel like there is something wrong with me.
I split from my long term partner and moved back from living overseas with nothing. No job, no prospects, no friends, no new boyfriends. And I just can’t see a way out even though I am trying to get on my feet nothing seems to work for me.
I am going out trying to meet new people, nothing ever comes of it. They are very flaky and unreliable. I am finding it hard I’m friendly, but it takes a while for me to warm to people as I am naturally cautious. There are guys in the groups that I go to, they are a bit weird but there’s no good reason why they wouldn’t be interested in me! I am pretty, brunette, well travelled, have a sense of humour & easy going. I give people a chance, not just based on looks alone. So it just doesn’t make sense.
If I even manage to get a date, I never see them again even though we got on fine?!
My ex partner has found someone new, of course isn’t it always the way and I’m struggling so much here! When I know in the back of my mind we should be together.
Hello neroliejasmine,
You are in a tough spot – new place, no friends or company. But you will do it, give yourself the time to take care of yourself and things will work for you. We all go thru phases where nothing seems to work – that is only ever temporary – and you will get back into things. Please dont give up.
And Im not sure how long its been since you moved but how about you try not to look for boyfriends but rather friends who will help you enjoy life a lot more? Flaky people are everywhere, but not everyone is flaky. Just hold on and see what people unfold to be. I dont think you are in the right spot for dates or a boyfriend because you are still not over the thought of getting back with him – please stay NC and look after yourself.
Hugs.
Hi Rosie. You are so right. It does take more strength, and courage, to be genuinely nice and remain that way in a culture that views niceness as weakness. I don’t know if this is typically American, as I’ve never lived in any other country, but, yes, self-serving and aggressive behavior does appear to be valued and more respected. In America, being “sweet” is often interpreted as being weak. I have noticed that I don’t like to hear the word “sweet” applied to me because I equate it with being a pushover. I don’t know if that is “American” as much as it is, in my case, being raised by an extraordinarily tough, kick-ass, very well-known and much admired mother. But, I say this. I am a very kind, compassionate soul, having an emotional nature more like my early departed father. I do not wish to ever change. I’ve been considered sweet by some but have learned that that is not a bad thing. But, I also, because of some unhappy life experiences, am over protective of myself and those I care about. It sometimes comes off as abupt, brash and intolerant because I cannot help but say what I think. It is not always with regard to how it may be taken by others. I’ve been working on this, because it is not an attractive trait. Rosie stay “sweet”. You can be nice to others without being a people-pleasing, approval-seeking individual. Just be you as you are normally and don’t allow anyone to change that. You are just fine. Hugs to you, Tink.
Rosie, here in America, we have a saying which I think may have originated in the South, ” You catch more flies with honey, than you can with vinegar”. Very popular saying and very true.
I’ve been reading everyone’s stories and felt i needed to vent today. I first wanted to say thank you to the replies i received under a different post on another day when i was having such a hard time.
First and foremost i find many of us find it hard to recognize what abuse is. I know i still struggle and even still ask myself if my ex was “abusive”. Because physical abuse is easy to see. There are marks, black and blues, physical wounds to heal. With emotional abuse and manipulation there are no visible scars and I feel even harder to discern (at least for me). Someone trying to mess with your mind causes such psychological damage when its your mind that you need the most in order to get out. Its like a double edged sword. So like many on here we proceed to do everything in our power to “be liked” because we feel it must have something to do with “us”. I know i lost sight of myself in the last relationship. It can be very confusing to discern someone who knows how to manipulate very well. Those that future fake, put on a front that they want a relationship and then blow hot and cold. I went from being the pursued to being the pursuer and i cant even tell you when those tables turned. He was extremely selfish and all i kept doing for a year and half was trying to figure out why this man now didnt want me. Why it was all about catering to his needs and wants and yet my needs and wants were ignored. I swore he was hurt and broken and so i took this approach to be patient, understanding and compassionate to him. All the while thinking that at some point he would learn to trust me and some kind of reciprication would begin. The carrot kept on being dangled in my face that perhaps with time, or oooh look i just saw a picture of his family or he just spent xmas with me, it must mean he loves me and wants a relationship!!! We must be getting somewhere. And then all of a sudden like clock work, the distancing again. This went on for a year and half. On and off, push/pull. The mixed signals are enough to drive anyone nuts.
I have never come across a person like my ex. At times i have heard that he must be a narcissist. But im not sure because he never went into rages or put me down. But he did withold love, affection, sex and things were all on his terms. I could not have a conversation with him because the subject was either ignored, he would change the subject or would say he had to go or i was told: Here we go again. Everything if fine, why do we have to talk about it? Why so many questions? I cant tell you how little this made me feel. And yet, i questioned “could this be abusive”? 90% of the time i felt i wasn’t a priority, felt disrespected, felt unheard, uncared for, alone, invisible and yet i doubted myself. I questioned is this abuse?
I still sit here after one month of NC (that i broke it off) wondering why he didnt like me, why he didnt care enough about me. WHY WHY WHY. Although i reason that i was involved with an abusive man. IF i had to chase and beg and plead for a level of decency to be treated as a human being… isn’t that abuse? If he withheld love, affection and sex from me… was that abuse? And not just him being “different or scared”?? Him being ok with taking and having me bend over backwards knowing that certain things hurt me knowing that i wanted a relationship (and him giving me mixed signals) was that abuse?
I dont have scars to show you. I have holes in my soul and a damaged self esteem. How do i show you that? I show you by my tears. I show you by continuing to doubt myself by continuing to blame myself, by continuing to think about this man. The abuse continues because the scars are still very raw. The abuse continues because now it may not be him abusing me, but now im abusing myself by being so hard on myself and trying to understand what the hell it is that i was in. I don’t have a band aid i can put over my heart a pain killer to get rid of the pain and havoc in my mind. How does one heal your psyche? What tools are there to bring your mind back to “normal”??
I feel for posters like Lucy. Some abuse is just horrid and some men or abusers are more monsters than others. The fact that we still sit here and wonder or want to go back to the source of our pain means we are still suffering from the aftermath. It is said that after awhile we start to sympathize with our abusers as a coping mechanism. Could this be part of why we continue to obsess over them? Why we continue to seek acceptance and validation from an empty source? Our wounds are deeper than we think and the road to recovery much harder (I think) than having been through a physical fight.
Do you like me or dont you like me? As you continue to use me, lie to me, and throw me crumbs. How can anyone live with themselves knowing this? I even sent an email to my ex thinking that perhaps we could end on good terms. Nothing apologetic just simply .. I hold no hard feelings for you and hope you dont of me. I am here for you if you ever need anything. The door of friendship will always be open to you.
I received no response (this was 3 days ago) Why do I continue to torture and abuse myself? Why do i continue to seek healing from the source of pain? Am i a masochist or is this just the result the aftermath of a mind having been abused too much that it just no longer functions the same?
I am scared …. Will i ever stop seeking an answer from him? Will i ever stop looking for the person who hurt me?
Confused2,
Thank you for that eloquent and heartbreaking post. I am so sorry you are going through this. You are speaking from the same experience I had and I too am struggling with many of the same unresolved issues, questions, and feelings that you are.
In my case, the only way I have managed to stay No Contact for 3 months so far is to remind myself multiple times per day what a selfish fucking asshole this guy was/is/always will be.
Of course he would never see it that way and he had every excuse in the book for treating me like shit over and over. I, like you, tried to be ‘understanding, loving, supportive, etc.’ but guess what? To men like this, that reads as ‘I will take any amount of shit you dish out to me and always come back for more. Nothing is too horrible for me to tolerate in the name of a relationship with you, so have at it.’
My ex never physically hurt me but I belive the following indeed qualifies as abusive: repeatedly getting drunk and telling me how fat I was, how stupid I was, (hello! I have 2 MBAs, not that that makes me the smartest person in the world but a step above stupid, one would think), how boring I was and how I was ‘too American’ (this twat was English).
Re-read your descriptions of how your ex treated you the majority of your relationship and you will see you already have most of your answers.
A decent person, no matter what their ‘situation,’ would probably not even know HOW to treat someone that way.
He is NOT friend material, never was and probably never will be. Slam that door shut ASAP and thank God that he hasn’t responded.
Don’t torture yourself with WHY you were in this situation but please do remind yourself that it is NEVER okay to be treated this way. By ANYBODY. End of story. It is the only thing that keeps me sane and able to totally ignore all of my ex AC’s pathetic attempts at communication. Although there are times when I do really miss him, those memories are quickly overriden by those of him lying to my face, puking on my carpet, hanging out with his ex nonstop, and being an all-round piece of shit.
Whenever he phones, texts or sends a chat, I so enjoy giving my phone the middle finger and making horrible faces at it. Yes, I am in my forties!
Confused2,
Perfect, perfect description and I can relate to every single part of your post. You could have been describing me several months ago. I’m still in pain, but not nearly as bad and the pain will subside for you too. I’m sending you lots of encouragement rather than strategies to overcome all this, but what helped me was to stop seeking answers from him. If he’s like my ex you will never, ever get one. Start looking at yourself instead. What led you to that relationship? Why did you tolerate such bad treatment? Why don’t you want to let go? Why don’t you think you deserve better? I found the person who originally hurt me, my absent father, and this disastrous relationship reflected this. Talking with a therapist, reading BR and having lots of support all help. I’m sending you lots of support. Like you and many others here I have holes in my soul too, but you will start healing if you choose to. It’s hard, painful work, but you will get there. You deserve it, hugs to you.
Confused 2,
Oh lovely girl, that post really made me tear up. Thank you for sharing your words and know that we are here to listen to you.
It hurts so so much. And more so because some people just dont have the basic decency and dont wish to treat others well. What is the point of trying to prove to them that we are kind, humble and caring – they dont have a clue what those things are!
You are out of it. You will be ok now. You will start to heal. Some day very soon, you will look back at this and thank your lucky stars that he/it didnt last. Like better later than never said, no one deserves to be treated poorly. And dont let you treat yourself poorly because of what was never your fault.
Please keep NC, dont email him (I have done so in the past too)..they just dont get it, they just dont care…and someday VERY soon, you wont as well.
I just wanted to share one more thing. I found this article online which seems to depict to a “T” what my ex was. I know NML has mentioned many times that these men tend to be “passive aggressive” but i never really knew what that meant. I find it helps for me to understand better that things were not my fault. I hope this helps others out there. Pretty interesting stuff…
http://divorcedwomenonline.com/2010/10/30/the-passive-aggressive-man-he-is-all-about-control/
Omg I think my ex is both. lol No wonder there was so much crazymaking
oh, man confused!! that link is great.
now i realize how true this was of the ex-EUM (broke up a year ago – a 3.5-month relationship it took me 8 months to get over – THIS IS HIM!! exactly.
Oh Confused2! I’m weeping for you. For me. For every person out there who has lived that post. Oh yes, that kind of manipulation is abuse. It took me a long time to see it. And it still kinda hurts. There are times I think I would’ve preferred the physical abuse. It’s much more straight forward. I’m farther along on my journey and it has gotten WAY better. I can actually laugh about a lot of it now. But NC is the only way to go. And in answer to your last two questions: Yes, you will. It may take some time but you really will. Hugs.
There is nothing wrong with me. My clothes are lovely. With the ex I was so self conscious about what I wore. I wanted to look perfect for him and he could be so critical. I can’t afford a lot of things. But I like my clothes, do the best I can with what I have, and am grateful for them. There is nothing wrong with me because I work an 8 to 5. I have done, and do, a lot of good at my job. My ex criticized 8 to 5 jobs, saying he’d rather die than work one. There is nothing wrong with my glasses. Yes, they are giant and a half an inch thick. (I have very poor vision.) My ex criticized them, saying they made my eyes look smaller. There is nothing wrong with the fact that I am extremely sedentary. I am a book nerd to the extreme. And not in a ‘I do it to be cool or intellectual’ way either. I spend an immense amount of time in my bed reading self help books. There is nothing wrong with the fact that, though I am short, and don’t weigh that much, I still manage to be chubby. There is nothing wrong with how my belly sticks out as if I am 3 month pregnant. I’ve had the same body type since I was 4; I just got taller and a bit of boobs. There is nothing wrong with this. There is nothing wrong with the fact my hair is growing toward my waist because I don’t want to get a haircut, as I’m still dealing with a pesky concussion from hitting my head on a refrigerator while cleaning it out. There is nothing wrong with my abnormally large feet and deep voice or the fact that despite being educated, I am a terrible speller. There’s nothing wrong with the fact my dog is my best friend, I think my grandpa is the coolest guy I know and still handsome at 89, and that I hate bars, clubs and crowds and that my idea of pleasure is my Art History class or that I drink Slim Fast with my meals and otherwise, just because it tastes fucking good, or that I think profanity gets way too bad of a rap, or that I find flossing my teeth great fun or that I like kid movies, think children make more/ better sense than most adults I know or that string cheese is a staple of my diet. It should be a food group really. There’s nothing wrong with the fact I cry in public (kind of a lot), get really angry lately, throw eggs at the side of my house (well my grandparent’s house and I wouldn’t recommend it. It smells terrible. ) Okay so maybe there is something wrong with that one. And I hate fragrances. What’s the deal?! Not everything is supposed to smell like caramel apple and fresh linen all the time. I hate the way laundry detergent smells too. It’s not even a pleasant smell. What quack whipped that up?
Ranting aside, I loved my ex more for his human quirks; his humanness. I loved his abnormally large mishapen, prematurely balding head. I loved his small, beady murky blue eyes, I loved his crooked, yellowing teeth, his disproportionately long arms and tiny short legs. I loved his terrible homemade tattoos (god I hope they were homemade, as no sane tatoo artist would put that on human skin. It seriously looked like a third grader drew their rendition of Miles Davis on his stomach. But not to insult a third grader, it was probably some wacko with a needle and pen, or pawn shop tatoo gun.) I loved him despite all his health problems (hmmm maybe even because of them. I would have felt too insecure with an all around healthy man.) I loved him irrespective of the fact that he dressed like a 15 year old, as a 25 year-old-man, all the while, he persecuted me (in all fairness, no more than I did myself) for not being perfect. He hated my humanness, whereas I loved his. I was not allowed to be human, make a mistake, express needs or even have them for that matter. The first time I gave any indication I had needs, he made it clear he was out of there. Such cruel bullshit. He NEVER deserved me or my imperfectness. He wants a robot with whom he can manipulate, maneuver and control. I acquiesced, until I didn’t. I’m not a fucking robot. I am a real human being with feelings and thoughts and opinions all my own. I don’t need him. He can go build him a fucking robot. He did like to build things. Wait…he doesn’t have to, the ex took him back.
I will never take him back. This is not a rom com. This is my fucking life. And it IS important. It matters. I MATTER.
JT… That was an awesome post :).. We are just human after all. I have this poster/picture as follows:
I’m Just ME… Full of flaws,scars & insecurities. I know the one who truly loves me will see beyond them all and embrace who I am, despite my imperfections, and love me just the way I am . I’m Just Me….
That was awesome, Jennifer. Thanks for sharing. You sound like a really cool chick who knows who she is. I’d totally hang with you. 🙂
Gracious ladies, I’d hang with you all instead of what I used to hang with. You guys have set the bar pretty high. Jennifer Tiffany, what a lovely post. You really added such a thoughtful dimension to Natalie’s comment: “We’re at our happiest when we practice self-acceptance instead of our perception and treatment of us being conditional”. As you described your acceptance of the ex’s flaws as well as your own, I could help but think about how I’ve been so accepting and forgiving of others, including the exMM, and then how I come down like a ton of bricks on myself for the slightest “imperfection”. Thank you for the insight. Good for you for not taking him back. Your comment sent me down the “I am so grateful for what I have and being me”, albeit with tons of flaws. I’m okay and pretty much good enough. Thanks to you all and Natalie, I could be rounding the bend into liking me, including the wrinkles around my eyes and knees.
Great comment Better Late Than Never! This really sums up my experience and steels my NC, too:
“In my case, the only way I have managed to stay No Contact for 3 months so far is to remind myself multiple times per day what a selfish fucking asshole this guy was/is/always will be.
Of course he would never see it that way and he had every excuse in the book for treating me like shit over and over. I, like you, tried to be ‘understanding, loving, supportive, etc.’ but guess what? To men like this, that reads as ‘I will take any amount of shit you dish out to me and always come back for more. Nothing is too horrible for me to tolerate in the name of a relationship with you, so have at it.’”
BTW, I’ve been NC 8 months after a huge blow up and he’s still making random attempts at “friendly” contact/attempting to hit the re-set button. As if. End of.
To Simple Pleasures, Victorious et al
Thanks for the positive affirmations, last week was tough, tomorrow I find out whether my two year sustainability program is down the drain or not. Re. My crappy upbringing; I don’t see my rejection by my own family as being a source of baggage, I wrote off family a long, long, time ago and my dad, the last of said family, knows better than to ever suggest that I act white or try to fit into mainstream society ever again. He finally is realizing what a badass lil Miskwa really is. Sp, you are right, AC was an AC long before Miskwas time. I didn’t know that at the time: what bugs me is that I was perhaps one of the few that didn’t know about his history and no one said a damned thing. However, I really kept my involvement with him a secret from colleagues. He did make an accusation a month ago that dark folk like me kept him from getting jobs due to affirmative action. Vic, keep encouraging that kid of yours; my generation is leaving them a world where they will HAVE to learn self sufficiency, urban/rural food production generally life without cheap fossil fuels. A good thing and a bad thing too. No more Crackbook, American idol and similar rubbish but also no more food and water for many.
Miskwa, re people not telling you about the AC….I remember asking a friend about a guy I was just starting to date as a mutual friend told me she had dated him in the past. She told me, “Oh yeah, Phil is a great guy.” When he was horrid to me and he dumped me, she fessed up that he was such a shit to her that she actually cleaned under the rim of his toilet with his toothbrush!!! So much for the sisterhood! Good luck with the sustainability programme.
Miskwa, I just VOMITED on the feet of yr ex AC re his REDICULOUSLY RACIST comment! Ugh! Will be AWESOME if he never returns. I get the sense karma might be catching up with him. Let’s hope it runs him OUT OF TOWN so you & yr sustainability minded friends can get on with your lives in PEACE! Hugs. T
I get it Rev. Of course there are those we ADMIRE & RESPECT who we hope will feel similarly toward us. If they don’t though, it always says more about them than us.
Very happy for you too, having such a wonderful Mother. I don’t have one, but despite a traumatic history re my son’s paternity, I do my utmost to try to BE one. xx
Also, Lacy, I didn’t realise in my first post that you were also the same person who was subjected to this ASSHOLE making you BLEED & trying to pressure you into threesomes. This PIG also SEXUALLY ABUSIVE. PLEASE, stay away from him, as I know you are trying to do. What you have experienced is ABUSE of the most horriffic kind. You don’t deserve that Lacy, no woman does. What he has done is NOT ok & you need that message to ring LOUD & CLEAR by going & staying NC to PROTECT yourself. Also, please DO enlist support wherever you can find it in your area. You are describing charactaristics of demestic violence, even if this fucker didn’t actually punch or hit you with his hands or fists. Domestic violence services in your area might be able to provide some free counselling if you contact them. Remember domestic violence is not just punching & hitting, but includes emotional & sexual abuse too, both of which, I have no doubt you have endured. And be gentle with yourself hey, on EVERYTHING except for him. Make him history FOR GOOD & you will slowly start to heal. Hugs. T x
Thank you teachable for your words of encouragement I appreciate it so much and everyone else replies too .I had a feeling that loving him was something I had to work hard and run through all this drama and in the end he’d show me love in return.I have heard from him and his friends that as long as he came back to me and I shouldn’t complain,also got advice from some women with similar situations as mine that say that the Ac was pretty fair to me and because he looks good I should be happy to have any kind of relationship with him,and that if I wasn’t with him on his terms that I would be alone I assume for good.If that’s my reality why when we were together or not together,cause I do have some sense to know that wasn’t a relationship,why did I feel miserable 70% of the time being around him?God does not intend for my life to live in continuous hurt,so I figure that type of advice I don’t need and those women I don’t need to associate myself with if that’s their view on how a man should behave.I guess as Nat would say those people were part of his Harem.I am not trying to make him out to be a Villain,I am no angel,I just stated the true facts of my encounter with him and I wouldn’t do the things he’s done to anyone,and Nat said in one post u can’t think if I were them I do this or that or I wouldn’t do certain things especially that he believes them to be okay and fair that everyone thinks different even though its not right we have different beliefs in life,also another reason he and I need to stay away from each other.Maybe I haven’t got mad enough yet.This situation that happened between he and I may be different from how he treats others,because yes from stories other woman have had similar problems with him and at the same time he had times when he would make attempts to be half way normal and plenty others seen that side I seen it rarely and that’s what made me think is it something I did to deserve him to act like this towards me?But reading BR thanks to Nat and u guys I know its nothing I can do or say to influence him to treat me how I want to be treated in his eyes he was fair.I just have to move on and work on learning to love me.I have been Nc he calls and text twice a day I know he will get tired.I just seen him driving down the same street I was he was going in the opposite direction and I went into I wonder who he’s with now which I know one of the baby mothers or someone else and that’s the part that had me break Nc several times before.I kept drifting back to I’m losing out on being with him,but I haven’t called and I won’t my pride won’t let me and although we been off and on for a while its been at least 6mths since I dialed his num,I only respond when he calls or text I guess he lowered my expectation so much I gave up on calling him up to see him,I will get thru this I know breaking contact will lead to me hurting myself and I don’t want to continue to live like this anymore.Oh hugs back to everyone especially you Nat.
Just read Lilly’s reply to Rev’s. You made me chuckle Lilly. Rev’s IS a kickass chickybabe & so are YOU even if you don’t yet see it. I see it in you. You’re just a more refined version of kickass – the steel magnolia version as Revs said (luv yr work Revs, lol)!
I reckon the secret to being a kickass is VERY simple. It comes from not ALLOWING others to define you, not NEEDING their validation or permission for ANYTHING & just being yourself; a person who knows how to assert their wants & needs, respectfully, as well as, making things HAPPEN.
With this though comes the need to really step up & be totally responsible FOR OURSELVES. Fully. Wholly. Absolutely. Including all the triumphs & the mess ups (& there will be many of both as such is life). lol
It’s about not relying on ‘getting a partner one day’ who will provide for us make us financially secure. Bugger that! Build a career & EARN YOUR OWN MONEY & make YOURSELF financially secure!
It’s about not worshipping the feet of some dweeb just because he’s smart & well educated! Bugger that! Get yr ass off to uni & educate yr bloody self!
It’s about not fawning over some mostly unemployed bozo just because he plays an instrument/makes art/is an actor etc. Bugger that! Get out there & nurture your OWN creativity! Join a dance academy, singing group, pottery class – whatever floats yr boat – just DO IT!
It’s about not worshipping some uneducated arm candy who HAPPENS to be a gifted athlete just because he looks good in a pair of speedos & earns good $ in a career, which lets face it, has a LIMITED lifespan! Bugger that! Join a gym, start a running or walking group with friends, or if you’re REALLY a rebel, take on a male dominated sport, like martial arts or boxing, & EXCELL at it!
The kickass motto for me, was summed up by a quote which I THINK came from Courtney Love. She once said, ‘don’t FUCK the captain of the football team, BE the captain of the football team’.
Coarse? Yes. Good advice? Absofuckinglutely! 😉
Teachable,
You said,
“I reckon the secret to being a kickass is VERY simple. It comes from not ALLOWING others to define you, not NEEDING their validation or permission for ANYTHING & just being yourself; a person who knows how to assert their wants & needs, respectfully, as well as, making things HAPPEN.”
Love love love this! It CAN that simple but we make it so hard on ourselves sometimes trying to be liked by others instead of just learning to like ourselves.
Teachable,
I second Selkie. Amazing post!
I’m uncharacteristically speechless, Teach. That is exactly what it is, every single bit of it.
Lilly, I’m going to explain something to you, dear. While it’s true that for the most part I don’t care what people think, it’s not because I have some amazing “kickass gene” that I was born with. The reason I have been molded into this woman is because, at a young age, I was a bright, bushy-tailed innocent who didn’t expect anything but love and sunshine from life. Somewhere along the way, after being judged and treated harshly by both adults and peers just for being who I was, I realized that people usually didn’t know what the fuck they’re talking about. I mean, come on. Yelling at a little girl for happily singing herself a song? Bullying someone just because she’s well-liked because she’s friendly to everyone in school, and not just one specific clique? There was a serious case of projection and/or jealousy going on there. Projection in the sense that some saw something vulnerable in me and viewed it as weakness, and therefore wanted to stomp on it because it reminded them of the vulnerability in themselves. Jealousy because I was so happy and content in my innocence, and they weren’t happy or content. So, in reply, it made me lose respect for most people’s opinions of me. There were WAY too much shady motivations out there to make them meaningful.
So I now come to you, Lilly. Do you think I haven’t had moments (MANY moments) in my life were I worked myself into a pretzel, trying to hit all the various marks that people set out for me of what I *should* be, look, and act like? Do you think I haven’t curled up into a ball and cried on the floor of the shower, multiple times? Do you think I haven’t cowered, been silent, cried like a baby (even as an adult) due to other people’s words and actions? I have done all of these things. I felt like a target for bullies most of my life, first because I was so open and unexpecting of bad things. Then later, because I just got so fed up that I actually started walking down streets and BEGGING people to fuck with me, because I was just so done with these whackjobs. Now, at 35 years old, I have (hopefully) discovered a balance, and I only fight bullies by leaving their presence. Vengeance is not mine, but God’s. And yet I hope that they learn their lesson before then. Because, guess what? I’m still that open, sunshiney little girl who wants the best for everyone. And NOBODY’s gonna beat that out of me, whether by words or by fists.
Lilly, I know that this is an online forum and we don’t know each other in real life. It’s easy to spread love and cheer without thinking, but this isn’t the way I operate. When I say something, I’ve thought about it first. And, based on my perception of you due to your comments, you ARE a kickass chick. And, yes, a steel magnolia. I don’t think you fully realize (yet) the strength that you really have, that we all see. You look at people like Teach and I and read our blustery, fiery words and think, “Wow, I wish I was like that.” We read your words of struggle and victory, of tears and then discernment, of slowly but surely struggling to the surface of a good decision, despite the tides threatening to carry you away. We read these words and think, “Damn. Now THAT’S a kickass chick.” And you leave us toughies in the dust. 🙂
Rev,
I truly believe there’s a powerful connection between the words we use to describe ourselves and the results we get. You’ve just made me feel that not only will I get through this, but will come out the other end stronger (and wiser) thank you.
Teachable, the same goes for your previous post, thank you.
Lilly,
*warm and fuzzies* 🙂
“I reckon the secret to being a kickass is VERY simple. It comes from not ALLOWING others to define you, not NEEDING their validation or permission for ANYTHING & just being yourself; a person who knows how to assert their wants & needs, respectfully, as well as, making things HAPPEN.”
Let’s make it happen, oh Teachable, I love this!–On Leaving Sugarland
Lilly
You ARE a kickass chick; you have gone thru the worst atuff a woman could go through and you are moving not just on but ahead. I too wish there were grizzlies in this state.
Thanks Teach, yep, his mysterious absence which no one talks about, at least to me, is very weird. I di know some karma is coming his way when he returns but whatevers going on, he’s basically gotten the semester off from teaching whilst the rest of us take up the slack and slog away. If he indeed leaves for good, there will be a huge collective sigh of relief. On the other hand, my supervisor is begging me not to leave.
God, just reading some of these comments on here makes me near tremble with rage at what these men get away with. It’s not that I feel ANY rage or that anger should be directed toward ANY of these women. It’s quite the the contrary. I’ve been there, giving sick men my love. It’s just time and time again I see beautiful (inside and out) women with deplorable men. No, it’s not always like this, nor does it have to be. I have to ask, is there some sort of spiritual thing going on here. Does darkness, and okay I never thought I’d be referencing this in a million years, but Satan or evil or whatever you call it have some vendetta against woman?!! All of the warm, loving men I know have some GENIUNE (this is key, it being authentic, and you can’t really discern if that’s so until you get to know someone over time in a variance of circumstances) positive spiritual mindset.
Tinkerbell, thank you for your thoughtful reply! Yes, we do catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. You mengioned how you can be over-protective of yourself and loved ones due to past experiences. I’ve noticed that I often have to guard my boundaries a little more closely as well.
Oops…I’m doing this from my pbone & accidentally hit “publish”.
Tinkerbell, I too am working on how I respond to people. I’m learning to focus on the other person when responding. It isn’t about the worthiness of the person ; it’s about honoring my own values, one of which is the dignity of all human life.
Lois Lane, we can start our own girl band with our hit song, “Too Sexy to Be Rude”. 😉
Courtney, thank you for another articulate, thoughtful post. I appreciate your educating me on self-harming. I didn’t know that it is as widespread as it is and it can attack people from all kinds of backgrounds. I knew it is quite prevalent with people who have been sexually abused or teens who have autism but that’s all I knew.
Ok, then. With your permission I’ll say a prayet for you. I’m with Dancingqueen. It doesn’t sound as if your friend is a friend. You deserve better and you’re right–there is an important impact for you to make on this planet! 🙂
Cc… sorry to hear the new fellow didn’t work out. I haven’t got my head around what happened yet, (very ill & not reading/posting much atm) but I know you will have made a sound decision. Another one to chalk up to experience. At least you are putting yrself out there & having a crack. Hugs T x
Selkie, Sugarland, Revs, Lilly. Thankyou for your feedback. You will all pee yrselves laughing to know I ALMOST didn’t post that post! Why? Insecurity! The voices of those from my childhood were whispering in the back of my mind, ‘who do you think you are Teach, to tell anyone, what being kickass is about (even if, only in my opinion)? It was only at the last moment I thought, bugger it, & hit send (from my ph, which is why my spelling, grammar etc is always so terrible, lol).
Deciding to hit send was actually a mental experiment. I thought, oh well, if ppl think I’m being ‘up myself’ or having tickets on myself or something by posting this, perhaps I will be able to gauge that, from the responses or lack thereof. I decided it would a ‘learning post’ for me. A way of experimenting with trying to learn how to just stand in the world as I see it, without actually crossing the line into coming across as ‘up myself’. I’m glad the post was taken as intended, as that means I must be succeeding in learning to find the balance with these things.
I’d add that this wasn’t an experiment in wanting to get ppl to ‘like me’. Some do. Some don’t. I don’t like everyone either! Such is life! I missed out on so much socialisation as a child though, in terms of positive peer interactions during what were critical years for this (3-12) that I still have very subtle difficulties, discerning how to ‘be’ in the world. (As throughout those years I was horribly abused & bullied in the place I lived in). I try my best to just ‘be’ myself. I figure if ppl don’t like that, it’s their problem not mine.
Lilly, Rev’s has got yr back. Listen to her & know she speaks the truth. x
Rev’s I couldn’t find your post, although I did look. Although I’m an atheist, we are very much on the same page & of the same ilk. I’m nodding along with all you say. Your posts to people are always very supportive & positive. You ought to be very proud of who you are in the world. x
See, this is why I love you Teach. (Refer to ALL you’ve written above.) And yes, we are very much on the same page. I find my self vigorously nodding (a commenter once said that in her comment, and it cracked me up) at everything you write too. I know you feel me. So much to say in reply, but I know you feel me, babe. 🙂
Lacy
You are RIGHT. Breaking NC, even if by replying when HE initiates contact, (or smoke signals, carrier pidgeon, ir ANY WAY AT ALL) WILL be YOU hurting YOURSELF.
So, you are also RIGHT to CHOOSE not to do this to yourself anymore.
You know Lacy, no-one in life can ever really protect us, if we fail to protect ourselves.
Read the stories here. People LOSE SO MUCH in these relationshits. Careers, finances, marriages, health, self respect, dignity, THEIR MINDS. Some, in utter despair, even take their lives or attempt to do so.
Don’t let the CANCER which is HIM infecting yoir life with his BULLSHIT take anything more from you.
YOU have the POWER to STOP this whole situation. YOU have the POWER to stay NC & say to yourself NO MORE.
If you cannot do it for yourself just yet, (this will come in time), THINK OF YOUR KIDS. They need a mum who is EMOTIONALLY AVAILBALE TO THEM, not one who is preoccupied with this asshole’s BS.
Get some help like I said & focus on YOU now & your children. It wont be easy. It WILL be worth it.
I wish you well. T x
Hey. Somebody loves me! Thanks Revo! Cheered me up & made me laugh! lol I’m giving you ‘that look’, which good friends exchange, when they don’t need to say what the other is thinking, as they just know, in relation to yr comment, ‘so much to reply to’ & ‘getting it’. It get you totally Rev & I sense you get me too.
I would just add, when all that horrible abuse & bullying was going on (& actually it continued I realise until age 14, not 12, when I finally engineered my escape from that particular hellhole), my ‘problem’ was, I refused to just sit back & take it. Quite the contrary, I fought back TWICE as hard. It’s very sad looking back as by the age of only 7 yo, I was starting to have episodic physically violent outbursts, in retaliation, at first directed at woman who ran that children’s home, as she was the LEADER of the other kids bullying me.
Later these episodes were directed at the other kids also (although their bullying was mostly not physical), as the bullying never stopped, & merely esculated. In the end, lashing out physically was the only way I could communicate, ‘you’d better stop fucking with me, or I’ll literally break your fucking nose!’ It got so bad that eventually, I could not be left alone with the other kids as trouble would always flare. The other kids joined in with the bullying of course, as doing so, curried favour, with the lead bully; the woman who ran the place. As the kids all went to my school also I was a very lonely child. Of course their cruelty hurt, especially the woman who ran the place, she was a sadist & I practically called her out on this, which she HATED knowing I knew EXACTLY what I was dealing with. In the end, it was so extreme, my own baby sister was.forced to join sides with the bullies as the dominant group against me, for her own survival. She was the last to turn against me but even THAT which they all thought would.break me, did not. I was too smart for them. I knew what was happening & forgave her even as she turned knowing she had.no clue as to the bigger picture of the dynamics.
I always refused to let any of them ever see me cry. I saved that for times when I could steal away alone. I would not give them that satisfaction.
So I guess, I learned not being liked, & being loathed & hated.even, is not something I should ever worry myself about. When I left that place, not surprisingly, I morphed into a kid was.had no trouble being popular & well liked amoung my (somewhat troubled) peers. I always knew it was them & not me.
My only ‘hangover’ from it all is still sometimes not being quite sure if I’m behaving in a socially ‘fitting in’ way or not, b.c I didn’t learn what that is, but I’m kinda figuring it out (I think). I’ve realise too, there’s a whole heap of ways in which I choose not to fit in & that perfectly preferrable for me. Being teetotal is one. Being resolute about placing my need to be financially independent as a priority above a relationship is another. Others might make different choices. I respect that, however, these choices are the right ones for me.
Hugs x
I just read that back & have to say, it’s not comfortable revealling all that. Who enjoys admitting they were the hated child? No-one I suppose & yet I do realise, I’m not alone. I’m sure others have experienced being the nominated despised child. I think I’ve read bits & pieces of ppls stories alluding to this on BR. The funny thing is, as I reflect more on this unpalatable history (not least due to my shame at the violent outbursts, which I honestly at the time, could not control, having been pushed to the edge of my sanity & having no1 around to teach me a better way & there being no escape, for all those long years & there WERE some attempts to physically bully me also, by older kids, so don’t get me wrong, although they eventually backed off, b.c I would literally go troppo, ie GOOD! lol), I realise one might expect I’d have become somewhat desperate to be liked as I grew older, out of craving this. I don’t know why I didn’t go in that direction. Possibly due to getting professional help at a very young age (17 yo) & this then being ongoing, as needed.
One other thing I reflected on, was my initial insecurity about whether I ought to post my definition of what being kickass is all about. I perhaps ought not mention this, I don’t often but as an adult, over many years earned two second dan black belts in two different styles of martial arts (which is essentially four black belts). In one of them, I was the FIRST FEMALE IN THE WORLD, to achieve that ranking. And YET here I was, second guessing myself, wondering if I would seem ‘up myself’ for posting that post, deep inside, thinking, ‘who am *I* to think I am qualified to speak to such a topic’?
Not sure if anyone is following me here, but this is a woman who LITERALLY HAS KICKED ASS, in a male dominated sport to achieve a WORLD FIRST; something very few people ever achieve in any sporting endeavour! It defies logic huh? So there you go! This only goes to show the shit which goes on in my head sometimes, is quite out of sync with the facts! 😉
Teach, girl, all that you reveal just helps us to feel not so alone when we can relate to bits of your story. I know I do. I’m glad that you share on here. You have had some pretty severe trials, as well as some pretty impressive achievements (black belts?! Check you!!). Glad to have you on BR, and please keep sharing. *giving you the friend look back* 🙂
I have been using this site for about 6 months now and I have to say I am regularly astonished by the quite AMAZING attributes so many of the contributors have. I am not going to embarrass anyone by singling you out by name, but we have a plethora of high acheiving women who are leaders in their fields. Campaigners, educators, environmentalists, leading academics, and brilliant single mums. It really does endorse my belief that the EUM/AC/Narcs of this world do indeed target the creme de la creme (that’s us) And actually, we are just TOO DAMN GOOD FOR THEM. They know it, we just have to catch up.
teach,
you may be sick, but you have spiritual energy, drive, spark, fire,glow, power,passion, and inner strength. I so admire you.
Sheesh Rev, keep this up & you’ll have me offering to teach you self defence! I used to teach both martial arts & self defence for women & at risk youth, & although I’ve had to stop now due to illness. By saying this, what I mean is, although of course it’s not possible due to us being BR buddies only, I’m complimenting you in one of the highest ways I know how. I don’t make such offers to just any old person (& I don’t care if you’ve already done self defence training. Having taught Federal police officers more advanced techniques than even our elite specialist army forces use, I’ll bet could teach you more)! You have a hell of a LOT to offer too Rev, & I’m glad you’re to share with us also. x
Simple Pleasures. Thankyou for your incredibly kind words. I really didn’t expect anyone to see such things in me at a time when I am at my lowest ebb. I realised today all I need to do is keep fronting up to just each day; no more or less. The support of ppl on BR & IRL really helps me to keep finding the strength to do that so thankyou again. x
I am honored by your compliment, Teach. I’m sure you could show me what’s what in the self-defense department. For now, I’ll have to rely on my dancing skills gleaned from a year of Barre and Zumba classes. Anyone messes with me and I’ll samba on their asses.
Glad to have you on our side, Teach. 😉
Rev and teach I took boxing lessons young and have boxed on a recreation level for years. It’s amazing how so many tough women with achievements get into predicaments we shouldn’t with these guys who aren’t worth our spit. I enjoy both of your posts.
You what Re? Reflecting on all that, just reminds me of the terrible damage inflicted on the r.ship btween my baby sis & I back then. It’s reverberated through our whole lives & combined with our mentally ill Mother’s antics (into which my sis is totally sucked into a sick codependent r.ship) it’s pretty much destroyed any possibility of us having a supportive adult sibling r.ship. I was her protector to the end, until I left that hellhole, & she only turned & sided with the dominant group of bullies against me, not long before I made my escape. We were seperated when I left though, so she was left there a couple more years. She was (how ironic is this) the GOLDEN CHILD of the witch who ran the place. As she was only 18 mth old when we arrived at that place, & the witch who ran the place, had fantasies that my baby sis, was actually her flesh & blood baby. Hence the golden child & also, she was the youngest of all the kids there; the ‘baby’. This is relevent now, as the day before xmas I had reason to confront my sis about some behaviour which she’d done which was innappropriate in relation to the r.ship b.tween my son & I. We’ve had repeated periods of many years of estrangement where I’ve had to cut off from her to protect myself from her manipulativeness. I’m trying not to do that anymore & to talk through our differences instead. I was very respectful in the conversation, using ‘when you do x, I feel y’ statements. She responded by refusing to see my point of view & when I disagreed with her, (even though this was respectfully) she just rudely hung up the phone on me mid sentence. I havent heard from her since. She knows how ill I am & her behaviour totally spoiled my xmas. She’s the only family who even pretends to care, but when it comes right down to it, she does not. She cares more about maintaining her delusions & trying to manipulate people. That’s why we don’t get along. She’s deliberately cut me off from all my nieces & nephews over the years (she has 6 kids) & draws them into adult business that’s not to do with them.
No wonder I’m so down. I can’t wait to get well & move away or start life afresh, hopefully with a partner & family of my own one day. (My sister is in a fake marriage with a man she doesnt love & never has. She only married him as that meant he would support her & she didnt have to educate herself & support herself. A daunting prospect as the first 3 kids were all by diff fathers! She pretends otherwise of course. She admitted as much to me on her wedding day though. It’s very sad as he’s a lovely man & really loves her. Little does he know. It galls me to now watch my sis, whose never worked a day in her life – apart from spreading her legs to collect welfare cheques for kids to diff fathers – NONE of whom she stayed with, & whose later with poor hubby, an average income earner who can’t afford all the extra kids on an average wage, & who didn’t want such a large family ie there were SEVEN children, but one died premmie), to now sit back & dish out ‘advice from on high’ to all & sundry about how they should live their lives.
My sister is so unhappy it’s not funny. And yet she pretends otherwise, to others, at least. Her life would have been SO DIFFERENT if our r.ship had not been so damaged as children b.c she’d have listened to & respected my counsel, which started with, (tried to convince her not to have at all first as she was too young) at baby number 1. NO MORE KIDS UNLESS YOU ARE MARRIED TO THE MAN OF YR DREAMS, & also, GO BACK TO SCHOOL FIRST & COMPLETE YR EDUCATION SO YOU CAN GET A DECENT JOB. Instead, she took what she thought was the easy way out, using more babies as a production means to access greater paying welfare cheques.
Here’s one thing I know. I’m not so desperate not so much to be liked, but more for support during my time of illness, that I will put up with BS from my baby sis. I tried calling her after she hung up on me, & she refused to answer. As such, as heartbreaking as this decision is for me, just like an AC, I’m ok with leaving things there with her, & to not have her causing any further grief in my life, esp at a time, when I am so very ill.
Still sad though. Just heartbreaking. For her. For the unsuspecting hubby (she’s done a right number on him & in times of difficulty he’s already indicated he will leave her everything ie the house ect. Given only three of the 6 kids are his & she’s duped him from the outset, using kinky sex to reel him according to her, ugh, I suspect that one day he might eventually regret this. For now he’s fooling himself it’s actually going to last. So sad.) For the CHILDREN (2 of his have behavioural disabilities). And last but not least, for me too.
I’ve well & truely lost my baby sis Revs & I will never get our once very strong bond back. It’s one of my deepest wounds. All those years I spent, literally at fisticuffs, protecting her. And this is how it all turned out. My baby sis not there for me in return in my time of need (just on the ph even I mean or emotionally. With so many kids i’d never expect too much from her).
Nat’s right. I’m not THAT desperate to be liked. Not even by my baby sis 🙁
Teach babe, in keeping with the topic at hand, I agree that you mourning your relationship with your sis is not as much about desperation to be liked, but just a sad byproduct of someone else using their free will (damn that free will!!! :)) to make poor decisions that lead to you no longer wanting them in your life. Or, scratch that: no longer being ABLE to have them in your life, because they are so toxic. We really are the sum of our choices in life. Unfortunately, due to (ironically enough, and among other things) your sister’s need to be liked, she forfeited a healthy relationship with her sister. And there’s nothing you can do but accept it, right? And yeah, it hurts. I know. I’ve lost many friends due to not being “desperate” to be liked, despite all sort of tomfoolery that went down with them. Ah, it boggles the mind what some people view as decent behavior. Stay far away and mourn, and cherish what little good memories you have of your sister, are my few words of wisdom. I’m not trying to be flippant about this subject (quite the contrary), but at some point, you just have to shrug your shoulders and say, “What can you do?” (((Hugs)))
That’s awesome Beth. We do some boxing as part of our core martial arts training, but mix it up a bit with kick boxing also (we can’t help ourselves, why restrict yourself to two weapns, when you really have four, or five actually, if you include your head! lol). Boxing per se is a totally different sport to martial arts though, as you’d know, although is actually next on my list to tackle, once I get well (along with Roller Derby). I did start just as I became ill & was totally unimpressed when I was forced to drop out. I was really interested to see what might ‘cross over’ from one sport to the other. I could tell from the outset I had a definate advantage compared to say, a total beginer, but also a lot to learn! Glad u enjoy the posts. 🙂
One of my best friends is an advanced black belt. She was my favorite friend to go dancing with as we both love club dancing. We use to fool around all the time fighting. She always says with all I know…I am smart enough to know you are dangerous. ha ha I would never let her get too close to me because I knew she had the advantage at close range. I use to do the mohammed ali dance with her. I def employed kicking when her and I messed around. It sort of came naturally to me as a former cheerleader but she did teach me some techniques. I did like it alot. Are you better re your illness? I hope so.
Thank you for your appreciative comment, Beth D. I have laughed quite a few times when reading your comments too! And I’m very impressed at the boxing, Miss Thang. Check us chicks OUT!!!! 😉
Oh & Rev, I’d LOVE to learn Zumba. It looks like SO much fun! You must be VERY fit! Not sure if barre is ballet? If so, you are VERY talented. Ballet is not a dance style for the faint hearted & incredibly physically demanding! If we were IRL I would swap you self defence training for Xumba lessons! LOL
Teach, I’m shite at pretty much everything else, movement-wise, but dance. I would gladly teach you Zumba. We’d have a blast! When you’re well enough, promise me to find a class somewhere Down Under (right?)and try it, and maybe even a barre (yes, ballet exercises) class too! Our barre instructor is a sadist, which is one of the things I love best about the class. :)Talk about a woman not desperate to be liked!
Teach
Your sister sounds like my remaining brother who cut off contact with me years ago rather than listen to me when I told him he ought to quit gambling, get help, start paying his bills, get an education, and for cripes sake, learn to love his own children. Hasn’t done any of those things as far as I know. I seriously thought of teaching a womens self defense class at the battered womens shelter. Beings as how restraining orders are useless here as they’re not enforced, I figured a much more direct approach was needed. You could probably teach (pun intended) a thing or two along those lines.