On my last post about whether you’re holding on to your security blanket of anger and hurt, longtime reader Annie commented on the subject of passion.
“No drama, no trauma, no pain. All of that is good. I’ve replaced being an addict of EUM’s with being apathetic. I’d be fine with never dating again since I don’t want kids anymore, and see no particular advantage to marriage at my age. It’s a strange place to be.
I feel like I have much healthier boundaries than I ever used to, and a greater understanding of why my life turned out the way it has and my part in it.
But I don’t have a source of melting joy anymore. In giving up the bad guys, I’ve also lost the few minutes of bliss because I’m not interested anymore, not even in a good guy.
So answer this one, Nat. How do you find your joy when having a relationship isn’t a goal, let alone a day to day reality?
In other words, how do you find it when you aren’t dating and it isn’t one of your priorities anymore?
We’re not talking about basically being comfortable with life.We’re talking about the joy you feel when you have sex with someone you adore and have the hots for who has the hots for you. That chemistry. That sizzle. That thing that makes you feel alive and on top of the world.”
I hear from a lot of people who are seemingly passion seekers. They want the thrills, the excitement, the heady rush, without the flipside that comes with it, which is that when passion is high on your agenda, you’ll likely pair up with someone who can give you passion all or most of the time, it’s just that it will come packaged up in drama, ambiguity, and sex.
This doesn’t mean that people who are not ‘passion seekers’ don’t have passion in their relationships – quite the contrary. They just don’t label unhealthy partnerings as passionate, or if they do, they recognise that it was still unhealthy and look to get a healthy relationship with passion.
Passion should never come at the expense of love, care, trust, and respect unless all you are looking for is a casual relationship, and even then, you don’t want to open yourself up to being taken advantage of or even abused by having no limits to where that passion will get drummed up from.
If you’re in a relationship where you have passion, but there is an absence of love, care, trust, and respect, I’m sorry, but that’s not passion; that’s dangerous.
How can you feel so much passion for someone who you don’t have basic levels of decency and a relationship with? Why does passion have to come packaged up with crap?
A lot of people who talk about passion have this grand expectation that they have to be experiencing passion all the time – people who talk about passion and their relationships factor it in as if it’s a goal to be achieved out of every day, week, and interaction, which is quite frankly wholly unrealistic.
The boyf and I have passion in our relationship and are passionate about each other, but come on now, life goes on! We both go to work (well I work from home), we have two young children, we chill out, we relax, we enjoy each other, we enjoy life. Part of our time of course, goes to affection and sex, but when you look at how much you have sex and are affectionate towards each other in the context of the number of actual hours in the day, it seems a bit strange that there is such a high emphasis. In fact, looking at Annie’s comment about losing “a few minutes of bliss” reminds me of why I stress the importance to so many women of actually being conscious in their interactions and considering the bigger picture.
Is it worth deluding yourself to get a few minutes of passion here and there with guys?
Is it worth the pain of not liking yourself too much afterwards?
Is it worth detracting from yourself and effectively jumping through hoops in unhealthy relationships so you can have a “few minutes of bliss”?
It’s safe to say that if it’s only down to a few minutes, you may as well go and shag your heart out and then go about your business!
But why do we have to go to such extremes? Why do we have to be all or nothing? Why is it passion with ‘bad guy’, no passion with everyone else?
It’s like ‘Fine, it’s my football and if I can’t play with it how I want to, then nobody will’ which translates to ‘If I can’t stick to my pattern and seek ‘passion’ with unavailable men and assclowns then I won’t bother at all because I don’t want to put myself at risk with the potential of a healthy partnering. I’d rather take the easy route.’
This taps right back into the fundamental belief that ‘passion’ is something that only comes with certain types of men and the rest of them, are guys you settle for and forgo a life of passion. That’s just bullshit though.
If we as women continue to sell ourselves short by catering to the patter of ‘only a bad boy can give me passion’, we’re saying ‘we don’t love ourselves’ and giving carte blanche to men to do as they like while throwing us crumbs of passion to keep us happy.
He doesn’t have to be unavailable or an assclown for you to have passion but you’re never going to find that out if you don’t address your beliefs and your self-esteem because writing yourself off because you can’t run out there and throw yourself into a relationship with a dodgy guy, is like writing yourself a script where you get to tell yourself that you’re not good enough and will only be wanted by unavailable men and assclowns, and now that you’re off them, it means you have no options.
Why don’t you think you’re good enough for a decent man?
Before you determine that you have a passionless life, I suggest each and every one of you that wants passion but is ‘off’ unavailable men, have an honest conversation with yourselves and while you’re at it, ask what you’re doing to increase the prospects of having passion within the confines of a healthy relationship?
I’m not saying don’t have sex.I’m saying have sex, but empower yourself.
Why do you only have to have sex if you can be a lamb to the slaughter in a pseudo relationship where you’re catering to an unhealthy pattern? Why does the other party have to be in control of the dynamic? Why are you denying your own sexual needs?
And there’s no point in saying that you can only have sex if you’re in love, because that horse has already bolted. If you’ve been having sex with unavailable men under illusionary circumstances, that’s not love, that’s your imagination and your vagina talking.
We need to listen to ourselves. Are we actually, as grown women, saying our source of joy and passion are Mr Unavailables and assclowns who walk all over us?!
It’s like saying ‘I’m only compatible with men who are unavailable and assclowns’ – does that sound right to you?
Passion is not just sex! It’s about affection, it’s about showing consideration, making an effort, doing things together, celebrating your togetherness, discovering things, intimacy and so much more than shags and arguments!
Passion certainly is not about being treated badly – some of you had better be careful that you’re not mistaking what actually tallies up to abuse to ‘passion’ – don’t get things twisted!
Another reader Cathy said to me recently, “I couldn’t date a man unless I felt passionate about him. In fact, passion is really important to me”.
This is fine but here’s the catch – what is passion without the actual relationship? It’s just empty sex and drama. It’s just a limited connection.
It’s also important to recognise that sometimes you bag and tag stuff as ‘passion’ when it’s actually drama fear, and the side effect of living off illusions. Sometimes when your tummy goes antsy and you think ‘Oh it must be passion’, it’s actually the familiar feeling of fear – it’s important to listen to yourself and also pay attention to the end result of your so-called passion.
Just like when people tell me how important their type is to them and I ask, ‘How many successful relationships have you had with your type?’ and I generally hear zero, it’s time for me to ask
‘How many successful, healthy relationships have you had where passion was high on the agenda?
Passion is a by product of other things in a relationship that are far more necessary and passion like everything else in the relationship takes work.
How do you find your joy? Go out and live your life without imposing shackles upon yourself by painting yourself into a corner.
None of you, including Annie and Cathy, will be in any danger of finding joy if you remove your options with your fears and by limiting your choices.
Boundaries are there to protect you. They’re called self-respect. When they’re a fortress around you, they’re not healthy boundaries, they are your means of keeping people out and not allowing yourself to be vulnerable. Respecting yourself shouldn’t feel like punishment.
To experience joy and passion in your life is about allowing yourself to be vulnerable.
If you’ve been playing it safe with Mr Unavailables and catering to your pattern, much like everything else in the relationship, you’ve experienced limited passion.
Of course the relationship could be intense and passionate – it wasn’t going anywhere and you knew it, deep down or even on a more conscious level!
If I knew I was in danger of losing something or it wasn’t real and I was clinging onto the whatever I could, I’d feel pretty intense about it too.
But it was never going to last and it’s quite a rollercoaster when you experience fleeting highs and even more frequent dizzying lows. That’s not passion; that’s a dangerous, unhealthy relationship.
If you’ve ever been involved in an illusionary relationship or been involved with someone where you broke up, got back together, broke up, got back together, you’ll know that that a lot of the passion comes from uncertainty and turmoil. If like me you’ve put yourself through the pain of being involved with The Cheater where your liaisons finish just in time for you to start watching Eastenders at 8pm, you’ll know that the passion comes from the forbidden relationship and being sandwiched into their schedule, plus the high of living off the promises of what could be. If you’ve ever had a man leave his wife/girlfriend and be with you, you’ll know that the passion disappears like the hot air and big talk that comes out of their bums. If you fight all the time or quite frequently, it will feel great when you fall into bed and ‘make up’ but one of you is likely to realise that they don’t want to spend their life arguing with someone all the time.
For me personally, I hadn’t really known proper joy until I started to take care of myself, doing things for my enjoyment, living my life with boundaries but going out there and putting myself at risk. I don’t mean dangerous risk where I went in loving and trusting blindly, but assessing a situation and taking a leap of faith. That’s joy. That’s passion.
You don’t get happy being stuck in a rut, expecting love to land at your feet when you’re doing the same old routine day in day out, sitting at a computer screen, and basically never deviating from the norm. So many women email me with their startlingly routine lives and declarations of how they want happiness – they’re not doing anything! It’s like they want the glory, joy, passion, and happiness without putting out the work.
Nothing risked, nothing gained. I don’t mean taking risks on three-legged horses like Mr Unavailables and assclowns and wondering why they don’t run like thoroughbreds and win – these are limited relationships with self-fulfilling prophecies so you know the score.
I mean taking real risks.
Love takes time. Some passion can be instant but if you want it to sustain, you have to let it grow and put in effort. All relationships require effort and it takes more than a few minutes of sex to sustain passion.
Even if you don’t want kids or marriage – sex is not a currency for kids or marriage. Trust me, not all guys are running around looking to knock someone up or get married but it doesn’t mean that you can’t have a relationship with them. Just date and stop shackling yourself – you don’t have to get it right the whole time. You’ll live if the guy is not ‘The One’.
I would also, just like when I say that your happiness shouldn’t be derived solely from one source, neither should joy and passion. I love the boyf, I love, the kids, I love my friends, I love my bonkers family. I’m passionate about my relationship, the boyf, and the kids, but I experience passion through stuff like work – I experience genuine joy through writing Baggage Reclaim. I could have been passionate about writing and talking about dating and relationships, but if I hadn’t put effort in, this site would not be what it is.
Until you’ve turned over every stone and really put yourself out there, don’t give up on yourself and don’t sap the passion out of your life.
***Updated 8am GMT 2nd Nov*** Apologies to everyone about the problem with the commenting system overnight. It has now been fixed!
Your thoughts?
Check out my ebook on emotionally unavailable men and the women that love them, Mr Unavailable & The Fallback Girl as well as the No Contact Rule and more in my bookshop.
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“Just date and stop shackling yourself – you don’t have to get it right the whole time. You’ll live if the guy is not ‘The One’.”
So true! I realise it is the fear freaking me out in my situation. I’ve met a decent guy and a lunatic in a short space of time and the lunatic is way more attractive to me. I know this is my fear of being vulnerable and i am catering to my old beliefs and falling into bad habits. I am going to take my time and see how things go with the decent guy, focus on my other passions in life and stop trying to control the uncontrolable. You can’t totally control a situation that involves someone else, all you can do is be true to yourself and look after you by keep yourself away from bad situations.
Great article – thanks so much Nat!
You are so right again, Nat! Passion without love, trust and respect is nothing. It’s like eating ice cream all day long, when you are really hungry for something real, a good and healthy meal.
Once I said to my EUM, “please, I want an ordinary, stable life. Even with a lot of boring days, it’s better than this up hills and down hills that we two have.” He just smiled a little and didn’t know what to answer. I don’t mean that life should be boring, but some days are grey, like this November day, but we can live happy if we live after our own standards, and keep our boundaries. It’s so not worth it if we feel bad after we have crossed our own borders.
I want to live a happy life. I know it is possible, with or without a man in my life. But I don’t want to build a fortress around myself after I have been hurt earlier, because I know there are decent men out there, if I look more careful. Passion comes when you are in a loving relationship where you both respect and trust each other.
I DO hear what you’re saying and (as always) it makes great sense.
So here’s the current deal with me: dating someone new – great guy, so much going for him, financially secure, decent, honest, respectful man who is very serious about me and hopeful about a future with me. We’ve been hanging out around once a week for the past month – taking things slow because my ex cheated on me and I came straight out of that into this new ‘relationship’.
I know that it’s healthy to give myself time and space between relationships, but my ex and I were on-off, on-off, and I just know without this new guy / distraction, I’ll go back to my ex (who has sobbed his eyes out on multiple occasions and confessed his eternal love, etc.)
I want to be with the new guy, but the passion of the old relationship is still fresh in my mind. Everything about the new guy is great and we get on perfectly EXCEPT when I kiss him, there’s nothing. It’s kind of a weak unappealing kiss and it’s driving me nuts in all the wrong ways.
Part of me almost thinks I should jump in the sack with him just to see if there IS a spark of passion.
I realize that passion is not all there is and that it should be taken in balance with everything else, but I still believe it is crucial for a relationship to gel and last the distance.
So – there’s my dilemma in a nutshell!
Keep up the great work – love my regular doses of Baggage Reclaim.
Nikki
If you would go back to your ex at the drop of a hat, it’s no wonder you’re not feeling it with the new guy. Jumping into bed with him is only going to make things worse and continuing the bad relationship habits.
It’s not really fair on the new guy. I wouldn’t like it if I was seeeing someone who felt that strongly about an ex.
Yup,
Been there!
Mine had been divorced for four years and still hadn’t moved on. Very painful experience, as it’s not fun to feel as if you’re filling a vold.
I WAS seeing someone still hung up on his ex – not fun!
Only you can decide where you are with this new guy. Maybe things will improve, maybe not. It’s important to be honest with him, the way we all wish we had been treated by our own exes.
OMG, doesn’t that suck? Still, I stayed around long enough for my ex to move on and like ME completely…. but I assume that someone who has questionable behaviors in the first place (like dating someone while still not being over the ex) will continue to have questionable behaviors in the future. And that’s why he’s an ex now.
Grace,
I have been completely honest with the new guy – in fact, he knew me when I was with my ex and hung out in a big group with both of us. He knows my ex cheated and that as soon as I came out of that relationship I began hanging out with him. We’re literally only getting together once a week for dinner, or out for the afternoon. No heavy makeout sessions or anything like that. Just getting to know each other.
The jumping into bed thing was kind of a joke – I don’t want to rush into anything like that at all. I want it to be right and I do definitely like him. I can be myself round him and we really gel. I am sure he does not expect me to be over my ex at the drop of a hat and he is just as happy to hang out with me and take it slowly slowly.
Is that really all that unfair? What my ex did to me was unfair and what I am trying to do is push forward with a healthy new companionship with somebody who gives me all the right vibes. I’m just saying I am struggling to feel that ZING when we kiss… it’s a weak, sloppy kiss and is literally the only thing putting me off this guy.
I was just trying to say that passion/the zing factor etc. IS important to a point.
Can relate with you on the “Zing” factor and I have to agree with the others. Until you get the ex out of your head and be in the present moment now with the decent guy – you won’t experience the Zing. I can tell you that with my decent guy (now husband) it wasn’t a Zing at first either. Rather inexperienced kisser (I like kissing) until I told him to kiss me like he meant it. He was holding back trying not to come on too strong. NOW I have a hubby I can’t stop kissing. Good guys will give you time but don’t take too long dwelling on what really wasn’t and miss whats right in front of you. Take your time for YOU! If he is really interested he’ll stick around – if not – thats ok too. You still have YOU – ZING!
@MovedUp
you’re post gives me hope – I can’t wait to have a “boring” stable relationship with a decent man. I say “boring” cause it actually isn’t – it’s consistent, real, dependable – NO DRAMA – that crap will kill ya!
“I know that it’s healthy to give myself time and space between relationships, but my ex and I were on-off, on-off, and I just know without this new guy / distraction, I’ll go back to my ex (who has sobbed his eyes out on multiple occasions and confessed his eternal love, etc.)”
I agree with everyone who’s responded. You’re not completely over your ex YET and you’re mainly using this guy to stay away from the ex as opposed to talking to him because you’re interested. Otherwise I think your response would mention how this guy has a great personality, and how he treats you real. I think he’s a rebound right now. Are you really that into this new guy right now? On the other hand, I think this new guy knows what he’s getting himself into, he doesn’t seem to mind being the rebound YET, so things will be fine…. until he decides he wants to make the relationship official as opposed to all the “getting to know you” dates. Your reaction to that may be one factor to determine if you really are over your ex or if you really like this guy.
On a random note, maybe this guy sucks at kissing? My ex said the same thing about me too the first time we kissed and after that it was better. LOL.
Nikki
Yes it is important. Otherwise we could just have a successful relationship with anyone who isn’t an AC/EUM, and that can’t be right.
Mine is still not over his ex-wife who died 17 yrs ago!!!
I have to tell you girls – I have a great friend (who I met thru the AC, they were neighbors). Her AC was cheating on her while she was pregnant blah blah. She came to stay with me when she left him and moved to FL to be near her family. A little over a year later she has met this wonderful man who is crazy about her – she would call me and say the sex was not that great – passion missing. I told her to stick it out – that she had to start telling her partner what SHE liked in the bedroom and vice versa. She was considering breaking up with him – he proposed – they are engaged and GUESS WHAT – they are now having passionate sex and she thanks me everyday for sticking it out. He’s kind, respectful, loving, trustworthy, same values and NOW he is GREAT in bed. Now ladies – that is what is REAL – real passion. I also sent them “The Joy of Sex” book as an engagement present, so it would make it easier for the two of them to talk about it – for some reason in our liberation in the bedroom we all think we are suppose to be experienced and great performers – but not everybody wants the same thing. My AC wanted to do the strangle thing our first time – no thanks. I also had ALL the chemistry – but I got the lies, the cheating, emotional neglect/abuse, drunk, etc.
I love sex – and I did not have it for 8 yrs before the AC – in the first year we only did it maybe 10 times (supposedly because of his chronic pain), but I was there for the love and the other passions from my side – turns out his was just a bunch of drama. I can’t wait to have the guy that is consistant, loving, trustworthy, loving, respectful cause ladies – the sex is mind blowing when you have all this other stuff – may take time for it to gel, find out what you both like/don’t like. But no “passionate” one night stand with someone who I had the tingly feeling with, the “chemistry” etc is as good as with someone who knows you, loves you, wants to please you – to me THAT’S MIND BLOWING and AWESOME.
Nikki,
The problem is because you are still emotionally tied to your ex. You have to work through those feelings. How people work through those types of emotions in a healthy manner is by realizing that the drama, turmoil, short spurts of passion are not worth it or good for you at all. It is not real passion, it is passion feeding off of the drama of the on again off again relationship. The feeling of never truly having them and when the mr unavailable gives you a piece of him you want to hold onto it for dear life because you think it is so precious, but it isn’t. Its dead passion. Take the leap and stick it out with the good guy so you can truly experience real passion or you lose him and be stuck with mr Drama King, and living an unfulfilling life.
“Love takes time. Some passion can be instant but if you want it to sustain, you have to let it grow and put in effort. All relationships require effort and it takes more than a few minutes of sex to sustain passion.”
In order to make it work with the new guy, you have to work like crazy by cutting the ties that bind you to your ex and at the same time work hard at your new relationship and let things grow like Nat’s above paragraph says.
MH,
This was awesome advice and you are absolutely right – I have to admit I keep falling out of No Contact and, you’re right, I need to go back to that so that I am emotionally available to this new guy and not shut off thanks to what some other assclown EUM did to me.
@Nikki – I know what you mean about those sloppy kisses. I don’t think that’s necessarily about passion or anything, it’s often just someone’s style and they’ve somehow managed to get through til now with a soft, bitty method of kissing. I had a kiss with a guy this summer and it was just too soft, lip-only – I ended up saying something. It wasn’t my finest moment, and I framed it in terms of what I was used to.
Anyway, my take on what you’re saying is that, regardless of this new guy, you’re just probably not ready to date in any serious way. It’s not just fair on the other guy, it’s not fair on you! It’s too much pressure – the pain, the comparisons etc. But, I do recognize that you want to have a nice time with someone, and it can be redeeming to reconnect with people. I just wonder, though, whether you don’t need a proper stint of time on your own or whether you could just not put ANY romantic pressure on yourself with this new guy, and just hang out with him as a friend (you’re probably healing because of his friendship above anything else). I feel like the weeks post-AC on my own have counted for two weeks when I was vaguely seeing guys romantically. You don’t have to put yourself in a binary of AC or new, nice guy. Anyway, I suspect you know all this! ; )
Thanks Elle!
You got it – a big problem is that the kiss is weak… sloppy… doesn’t make me vaguely interested in jumping into bed with him… just more BLAH, whatever, please stop. I honestly think if the kiss were better, I’d be making leaps and bounds away from my ex. Sounds insignificant, but that’s how it is.
Thanks all for your comments – I didn’t mean to put the cat amongst the pigeons, but you’ve given me faith that I CAN find passion with a decent guy. It might just take a little more effort – but will be well worth the end results 🙂
Standing ovation Natalie!! You nailed this one like no other. Every word you said is what my relationship was. I knew it, I could sense it; yes the sex was great but that’s all it was! There was nothing more to it than that. I felt empty during the relationship. And as you said when there is all the hours in the day and the time you actually spend in the bedroom its nothing more than sex (para-phrasing here).
Natalie also said “What is passion without the actual relationship? It’s just empty sex and drama. It’s just a limited connection. BINGO!! And also “Passion is not just sex! It’s about affection, it’s about showing consideration, making an effort, doing things together, celebrating your togetherness, discovering things, intimacy and so much more than shags and arguments! Such wise words and so damn accurate!
Natalie said: “If you’re in a relationship where you have passion, but there is an absence of love, care, trust, and respect, I’m sorry, but that’s not passion; that’s dangerous.” It’s more than dangerous! You are playing with your time, emotions and your very soul. When this type of relationship continues it takes away your own sense of reality. All of sudden I became a person, who once was loving, caring, and respected my partner, into a person who didn’t know what those things meant any longer. I lost my sense of self and who I was and how I use to be in a relationship. I lost the ability of seeing the relationship for what it really was.
Wonderful, awesome, enlightening write up Natalie!
Thanks so much for yet another real post.
This is so true, based where I am, 2 months No Contact, left the EUM but miss the “great passion” aka sex and making out. I realize I won’t die if I don’t get this for now, that I’m off EUM and dating as a whole. I can now see the bigger picture and realize there is so much more I want that I didn’t have with the EUM.
I see now that boundaries are good, and I”m not jaded, I did learn a lot from this last “pseudo relationship” and forced myself to start working on my emotional issues.
I do have hope still I will find decent men, and also don’t want to feel pressured when I meet someone to think he might be “the one” and try to force it that way.
I don’t hate the EUM, I feel sad for him, even though he admits he needs to work on himself, but it’s not my concern anymore.
What I needed to reagain was my self-respect after doing some pretty low things, these past 2 months have been therapy and owe BR so much!!
thanks again
xoxo
What do you do with the loneliness? When you lay in bed alone night after night? When you sitting in front of your TV on Friday nights? Sure you could go out with the gals but you want to go out with a man, you want to be missed, you want someone to take you to dinner and look across the table at you and smile. Is that seeking validation? My biggest hurdle is overcoming the loneliness. It sucks to so bad. My man “friend” is too busy to spend much time with me. He calls every night when he goes to bed and tells me what he did all day… but he doesn’t ask me to do things with him, doesn’t make time for me. I’m not happy with this situation but to tell him to stop calling means the phone will be screaming it’s silence at me every night. I have friends to go out drinking with but I don’t want to go out drinking. I want to kick back, eat a nice dinner, watch a movie, have my feet rubbed but there is no one there to do that. How to keep from getting all depressed and lonely and turning into a cat lady?
Is it loneliness or aloneness? If this “man friend” of yours is not meeting your needs – kick him to the curb. NO you don’t have to sit home – get out there and get interested in something – anything. Join a club, join a gym – no one says you can’t go to the gym Friday night and bust a move! Look around and see whats out there that sounds interesting to you and take a risk. get out get moving and you will get moving on.
bust a move 🙂 definitely would not hurt. When you’re lonely and someone comes along and even when it isn’t what you want you stick with it anyway because the alternative is being alone again. Depressing.
I am not sure about the whole loneliness thing. I actually felt more lonely in an unhappy relationship. There’s nothing worse than being in a relationship but feeling unloved, unheard and devalued. That’s real loneliness because you’re not strong enough to like yourself, and calmly sit with yourself. It makes you desperate.
My other view is that loneliness is primarily a mindset and that it is a close relative to boredom, which means you need some new hobbies, new experiences, some new routines.
But, at its heart, you might just have to sit with loneliness for a while. I did that when the AC dumped my ass, and I realized that being lonely is not that scary.
So my take-homes: 1) Get out of your unhappy relationship/friendship – they warp things. 2) Get to know real loneliness – see what happens if the phone doesn’t ring (you’ll be OK!). 3) fill up your life with new things, a project – something you can do at home, if you like.
You are right… and boredom could have a lot to do with it. I find myself looking in the fridge, looking out the window, unable to concentrate, nothing to do, thinking about getting cats.
Kim,
I know a lot of how you feel.
I am not interested in the passionate, mind-blowing sex (not averse either! But not high on my list of priorities); I hate ‘drama’ – I have no time for it – I’m not interested in all the ‘bling’; I don’t want a roller-coaster ride relationship, so although I agree with Nat’s post; I don’t relate well to the ‘drama seeking’ element. I am not one of those women who ‘gets off’ on AC or EUM behaviour – in bed or out of it. I simply hated the emotional unavailability – the inconsistency of the relationship with my EUM, the on and off and in and out and here one minute, gone the next.. blah blah… it’s hopeless – and I did not get off on it – far from it; I hated it and found it distressing a lot of the time.
I just wanted peace and stability with the man that I Iove. And good sex is something you learn with practice – with the same guy! – it should get better the more you get to “know” each-other. I never quite got the notion of passionate, mind blowing first time sex… for me first time was always pretty rubbish…
I know all about sticking with less than you really deserve because “it’s better than nothing”. That’s me to a tee! That’s why my EUM thing has trundled on so long; because in many ways (not all!!!) I can’t quite convince myself that it is not better than nothing. I always thought I’d rather have “this” from him than have to live without him at all – he seemed better than the alternative (the alternative is always pointed out here as being a “healthy relationship with a decent man” – but for me the practical reality of the alternative always seems like “nothing”; so it was for me always a case of “this or nothing”…and I have not yet convinced myself that I am wrong about that, though I am managing to stay away from “him” and hope I will feel differently in time.
He wasn’t much, but he was at least a safety net in a crisis… I sometimes feel frightened that he is now not there for me at all…
,,, and I do hear all the “find a better man” stuff, but it’s not easy once you are past a certain age and have, frankly, run out of steam with the whole bloody palava of “finding a man”… I have been there and done it and I was bored with the cattle market 15 years ago, and now I am an “old cow”!! So who’s buying? I don’t even know that I want to get bought! Or at least I know I am not going out to pubs and clubs on the “hunt” like a desperate old whore!!
I can see how all of the “wouldn’t you rather have a nice decent man who would give you love care and respect” fits with the younger, still energetic and less cynical posters here – and who have also have plenty of options!!… but can I really be bothered with it all…what are my options exactly, is what I struggle with. And don;t any body dare tell me “there’s nothing wrong with staying single” 🙂 Yea…Nothing wrong so long as it’s not you!!
So what now? Never mind the drama and passion and all of that – I care even less for that than I can find the energy and interest to go looking for a man!
So, Kim, I know what you mean… but the answer, I guess, is always the same… if you want soemthing different you had better leave the house as the guy who is going to rub your feet ain’t going to come and chap on your door! I know that, I have though become apathetic – and no bloddy wonder.
@ Fearless
You must have been reading my mind – I hate the drama, the roller-coaster, intimacy dance, blah, blah. Everything you said I relate to. I was single/sexless for 8 yrs – I loved this guy when I was 15 – so in the “end” I was feeling, at 45, that “this” was better than “nothing” – that we all have baggage by this age. Boy he talked the good talk (mutual terms, be honest blah blah-like Natalie says actions vs words, hot/cold) But in fact it was not better – I am exhausted, my nerves are fried, and I’m depressed. I am not sure where to find the decent men – not interested in the bars either. But I have been alone and lonely and I have been with someone and very lonely – I think I’ll take the company of myself, friends, family, and MY CATS for now – less drama!
My ‘friend’ is someone I grew up with. He divorced two years ago. At first we spent every weekend together and several nights a week after work. Then it tapered off to friendship with him being busy busy busy but still calling me every night, texting me. I am frustrated and want more but the reality is I have been divorced for 20 years and only sporadic hit-and-run relationships before. This guy will come over and fix things in my house and I enjoy his company. He doesn’t want to let go but he doesn’t want to be in a relationship either. Like Nat says — can’t commit to being with me, can’t commit to letting go.
Thank you for this post. You are spot on! I sure can feel the “desperate old whore” because I don’t want to troll the bar looking for someone either. I have never met a nice man in a bar – has anyone? I am 50 and there aren’t a lot of options where I live. My town is small, my friends are great, family nearby. That’s all good but it’s lonely too.
Like you, I want simple peace and stability with a man I Iove that loves and cares for me. Companionship. Trust. The men I have met in bars are the AC and jerks and sure I have had a few one night stands to scratch an itch and that was most disappointing. I would have better relationship luck if I were a lesbian.
Probably not. I am a lesbian, and have had the same problems with women that many of you have had with men….(and God knows what some of my exes would say about me.) Lesbians are not immune to infidelity, blowing hot and cold, fear of commitment, and mistaking drama for passion.
@Tanya Z
Yes… what you say makes sense…most of us here may talking about relationships with men but this is not a “gender” issue and EU behaviour is not striclty a man “problem”.
Kim in Minn,
Me too. I am approaching fifity. In my ‘younger days’ right up until my late thirties I was very sosciable – I was out every weekend with friends (and often during the week as well) at my local bar and to bars and clubs in town (I live a few miles from outside of Glasgow, Scotland), and I think in all the years I went pub-ing and club-ing i rarely met anyone of any siginficance in these places. Anyone I ever met in bars or clubs I was introduced to me by friends who knew them already anyway – rarely met ‘stangers’, so to speak.
No-one introduced me to my “current” EUM – I met him at university – he was staff, I was mature studen. I didn’t know anyone who knew him already. I have been on/off with him now for nine years or so and I still don’t know ANYONE who knows him!!! (except those I have introduced him to!! i.e. he has met most of my friends and family – I have met NONE of his; his mother died last year and I never even met her – she never knew I existed. He has one brother – have never mey him; he doesn’t know I exist either). It’s pathetic, I know, but true.
The only EUM relationship I have had is with this “current” – I have had those that didn’t work; I have had relationships with guys who were ‘not that in to me’ – but the EUM is on a whole different planet! And the one thing that I am very wary of, and I think we all should be, is going out with guys who are ‘stranger’, so to speak; those who have no-one and nothing to vouch for them in any way and those who seem to want to keep it that way. If he is secretive and isolates you from his life – get out fast. Be wary of men who are not known to anyone that you already know. That’s my advice.
A few months ago, in an effort to “move on” I signed up to a well-known on-line relationship site. I ‘talked’ to one guy by email for a while and I liked him – he made me laugh, was intelligent etc.. I met up with him for a coffee. I liked him, but was wary that he turned the conversation to sex (told me he masturvated very night etc.. ) I told him I thought he was being “forward” and he said he liked to “shock people”. I tild him I wasn’t easily shocked; I juts thought it was inappropriate etc.. anyway, we met again a month or so later… thankfully he dropped the “sex” topic and had a more natural conversation, but he did not contact me again and I did not contact him. I think he was looking for sex and was not going to “wait” for it… for me, I was not about to “deliver” any time soon, and was still hung up on the EUM… so that was a waste of time for him and for me!! But interesting nevertheless – my first ever blind date!!
Anyway… I don’t know the answer except to keep going and try to keep and open mind. I try. But, see men!!!…they are trouble!…they really are, I think, selfish people, generally – though there may be some who are selfish and also quite nice with it!!… and they very often are looking for very different things from women than women are looking for from them.
Kim
Even in jest, referring to yourself as a “desperate old whore” screams “low self esteem” to me. Be happy for yourself – fill up your life with people who are good to you and things you enjoy. It will make you feel better about yourself and life. There doesn’t have to be a man for you to be happy.
As for meeting jerks in bars, that’s nothing to do with your age. Maybe try something different.
Join some groups, do some volunteering, take some classes, etc….. There are so many ways to make your life fulfilling, you don’t need a man to do it. If we depend on others for our happiness, you will be putting a burden on them and yourself; it’s not fair. Make your life fuller with more activities and friends, and the rest will follow.
Yes I have read that and I work full time, do yoga, have a grandson, help my mother, camp as much as possible during the summer, have fab friends, etc. Still no one to cuddle next to in bed at night makes me sad. I should get a dog.
@Allison,
Am not sure who your advice is for, but I have never depended on anyone for my happiness – and I don’t intend to now – I have never depended on anyone for very much of anything. I have always taken care of myself and I do not expect anyone else to take responsibity for me or my happiness. I don’t have the time to volunteer…and I do take classes – I teach in them (!)… I do have a fulfilling life in many respects… I am on the go from 6.30 in the mornng well into the evening most days, commuting and working in a very demanding profession…I do have hobbies – I wish I had time to enjoy them. I don’t have cats. I don’t like them.
Good advice though.
Fearless,
It was directed to Kim.
When I got out of my ‘relationship’ these are the things that helped me. Funny, I didn’t realize how boring and empty my life was until I got involved in all of these different things. The benefit for me was, new friends and interests. It was a win-win!!!!
For me, I have come to understand that the sort of “passion” I thought I had in my unhealthy relationship was exactly the same as the “high” I get when using addictive substances. It feels FABULOUS. For a while. And then comes the crash.
I’m doing recovery work and realizing that substances (and relationships) that are sooo enticing, that can feel soooo wonderful for a while are 1) not normal and 2) ultimately totally destructive to me. Today, I choose to pass on that kind of passion and I definitely think I’m better off for it.
@Kathy
Been in recovery for 24 yrs – the relationships back then are a drug. This one was awful. I learned to go out and live life w/o drugs and alcohol and at first I thought I was going to be bored – HA!! I have had more fun clean then I ever did using – college, traveled around the world, great, loyal friends, owned my own biz, workout, do crafts, I can’t believe I ever thought I would get bored – I LIVE LIFE TODAY – and that’s awesome. That is what I want to do with a partner now – what a great feeling to know when you are in a healthy relationship that the person will show up to your mother’s funeral, your biopsys’, to YOUR HOME (mine spent the night 1x in 2 1/2 yrs), to family dinners, concerts, parties w/ friends. That’s not boring to me – that’s a partner!
Good luck girl – addictive relationships are a big, soul wrenching crash – unfortunately I had to do one more at 22 yrs clean – UGHHHHH
All true, but I would also like to add that a R with love, care, trust, and respect but a serious lack of passion is no good either. We’ve all known supposedly good relationships, especially marriages, where two people do “love” each other, are committed and devoted to each other, BUT there are major problems (usually hidden and swept under the carpet) because of sex or the lack thereof, or just the general absence of passion generally. I’ve seen so many like this. These are quite often the ones where someone cheats, and there’s a reason! Not that it excuses it, but…
My brother dotes on his wife, loves her to death. He would do ANYTHING for her and always has. And she loves him, too, in her way, yet I see that marriage as a horror show. There are so many terrible things going on they would NEVER address. She is cold and hates sex and is a religious nut. But they’ve been married 25 + years, have raised 3 kids, and get along in all other ways. Things are seemingly fine on the surface, but they’re NOT, and I as the aunt hear about it from my neices and nephews.
Personally, I wonder if women who put such a high value on passion didn’t come from marriages like this. They SAW a seemingly working, devoted relationship, but they knew damn well there was some major sexual dysfunction going on that comes out in some really twisted ways. Just a guess.
I personally do place a very very high value on passion. I value it JUST AS MUCH as commitment.
Ahhhh but it does not mean committment and passion are mutually exclusive. Committment heightens passion – this I assure you – especially when it comes from a healthy place.
@ Movedup
Thank you! You are spot on!
heeey ladies!
well, I’m at home with a flu and a had an interesting week, i saw my ex in a store with his new girlfriend, shopping for groceries, which btw he never wanted to do with me;) so i said it’s about time i ordered Nat’s book Mr. Unavaliable and the Fallback Girl! Actually, my dad ordered it for me, best stepdad ever and The best book ever:))) I can’t thank Natalie enough for writing this for us:)
but now I’m a bit jaded… i think that all of my guys so far were Mr. Unavaliables, I’m pretty sure about that… but i still have some questions, cause i don’t want to mess up once again and i would really appreciate it if you told me what u think…
so, if a guy is a Mr. Unavaliable, does that mean that right now he’s unavaliable to all the women in his life, or just the fallback girl?
and one more question: if a man is fresh out of a relationship and because of that he’s unavaliable, does that mean that he’s unavaliable for just a “short” period of time… even if he has relationships and rebound girls, does that mean that he’s not an assclown??
i mean, do we have to separate habituallly unavaliable men, and those who are unavaliable just occasionally??
I would be so happy if you help to clear that up for me!!!
xoxo
ana
@Ana
He is available – VERY available in the BEGINNING – see Nat’s hot pursuit, blow steamy hot. Then HE CHANGES!! Mine took me to the grocery store in the beginning – quit in the middle – probably had some girl he was “playing” at the store – see mine was a player and needs the narcissistic harem.
From my own personal experience (keeping in mind I am a woman – would love to hear the men’s opinion on this – out there Brad? Anyone else?). I have done the rebound, after the rebound I just had to deal with the feelings, grief, and my behavior from BOTH of them. I learned then, in my 20’s, to stay out after ending one to deal with me – 1) so I did the “work” that needed to happen so I didn’t carry into the next 2) not be unfair to the next person, I wanted to available for them 3) I wanted to do the next one differently. Now my AC, if he is ever alone, may have to do the work from at least 10 – that could take years to recover – but maybe men process differently than women.
See Nats info on EUM vs AC – I have had both. My EUM actually was a very good man, who loved me very much, did not lie or cheat – but was not there for me emotionally – different values and I was an EUW at the time. AC – player, liar, cheater etc.
Keep reading the book and the blog – this has been a life saver for me! 55 days NC today!
thanks aimee:))))
u are right, i have to keep reading the book!
but, I’m still confused… i’m afraid that i will label every guy as Mr. Unavaliable, so i need to know the difference:)
anyway, I’m sick and my brain is 50% off right now couse of the flu, but anyway, what is the difference between Mr. Unavaliable that Natalie describes, and a guy that can be emotionally avaliable but just got out of a relationship and you are sort of his rebound girl??
thanks a lot for helping me!!!
xoxo
ana
xoxo
@Anna
Watch out for rebounds, is my advice, unless that is what you’re doing as well. Go thru this site with a fine tooth comb, I did. You will find the answers to both EUM, AC and healthy relationships from Nat’s articles and from others posts. It takes time, but is totally worth it and helps thru the grieving process – it helps me process – instead of just running out and doing it again, and again. I have also just downloaded “Getting Out of Stuck” info and worksheets – and start therapy tomorrow – once again. KEEP READING!
A great post Natalie. For me, it wasn’t about the sex, which was often dysfunctional. It was the drama, the not being sure, the “where is this going” and will he call and all that. The high isn’t just sexual, its the unknown. The not being comfortable. The ability to waste huge amounts of time and energy analyzing it. When I have been in healthy relationships BAC (before assclown), there was no drama. It wasn’t exicitng or “passionate”, it was adult, reasonable. Yes, a little boring but stable, steady, secure. Then AC and the excitement was that I started feeling very secure (during the golden beginning) and then wham -no idea what was actually going on. The illusions are a big part of it – where there is ambiguity, there is plenty of room for invention, and that feeds into my desire to create the relationship I want, whether he wanted to be part of it or not. Its unhealthy, there is no denying it, but to dismiss it as just the sex is wrong. Its all the other crap – the lying, the insecurity, the indifference. It may not be healthy, but it is certainly never boring. I can’t wait for a nice, boring, stable relationship with someone I don’t need a decoder ring to understand.
Spot on! Yes, the sex can be great, but the real draw is the drama for me too. “The ability to waste huge amounts of time and energy analyzing it.” That describes me to a tee.
Maybe it’s that spending all your time focusing on the broken relationship distracts you from the things you’re avoiding in your own head.
Sad to say it, but there IS something exciting about not knowing where things are going, when they’re going to call or if they even like you that much to begin with. But that kind of suspense is better left to a good horror movie rather than your romantic relationships! 😛
RozB –
I don’t think Natalie was suggesting we settle for emotionally available men we’re not attracted to and have no sexual chemistry with just because they are not assclowns/EUMs. I think she just wants us to better define “passion” -We tend to think that a relationship is only passionate when we’re walking on egg shells and dealing with hot and colds and so when it’s more steady, we’re treated well and there is less drama, we sometimes assume it means there is no “passion”. But it is also possible to have great sex with a man who is emotionally available, respects us and treats us the way we deserve to be treated – consistently.
I also refuse to give up on having a healthy attraction/chemistry/sexual relationship but if it comes wrapped up in a manipulative, selfish, emotionally void douchbag, it’s not “passion”, it’s drama.
Oh yes, I totally agree. DIdn’t mean to suggest that.
It’s a balancing act!
You know what I thought of the other day that relates to the passion issue? Well, I will tell you: I was thinking about the whole Madonna-Whore issue for men, and how some/many men – for their own peculiar reasons – find it hard to synthesize woman as mother-carer, and woman as sexual object-lover.
I wondered whether women don’t often have a similar dichotomy going on, in which it is hard to manage somehow, mentally, man as father-provider-gentleman, and man as child-lover-sh*thead. (These are technical terms).
Something to think about perhaps…
Ahhh yes we do love the bad boys no matter what we tell ourselves.
No way! Never again!
Forgot to add, that I’ve had enough of the hurt and the drama!
Mary, I hope you were not serious???
Yes I am. I read this in an article and it has stuck with me…..”Women say they want a “nice guy” but show them an asshole who treats them like dirt and they’ll trample over their own therapists to get to him”.
I know it won’t be popular on this site but I think there’s more than a shred of truth to it. I speak from experience.
Hahahahaha!
Yes they do! I know I do. And hence, I have tended in the past to go right for the guys who have the same problem. Like attracts like.
My thoughts? If you’re a passionate person, you find it in almost everything you do, including dating and sex.
Which means the passion comes from within; you’re not handing it over to someone else.
Sure, “bad boys” have sexual allure (I wouldn’t call that passion, per se, but whatever); that’s what draws us in. When you bring your passion into a relationship with a non-bad boy and it’s reciprocated, BINGO! If it’s not, well, just move along her folks; there’s nothing to see …
Having been what i call a “graduate” of this site (and no more EUM relationships) this posting couldn’t have come at a better time! I used to struggle with the how to be in a healthier relationship and have better relationship habits but now what I struggle with and find challenging is entering into this “foreign” realm of the “healthy man/relationship” and what its supposed to and “not” supposed to feel like. I say “foreign” because like most of us, I tend to think that love means: Every time i look at the person or hear his name, i get butterflies in my stomach. Or that giddy feeling like you see played out in romantic roles in movies and TV. That im supposed to think of him 24/7 and almost burst out of my skin with wanting to be with him and feel as if I am drifting on a cloud. I am currently in a relationship with a wonderful man! He is great to me and my son. He treats me with respect, puts me/us first, no drama, i love spending time with him. Of course at first there was no “spark”. He is a bit overweight and quite frankly he is not “hot” or this GQ looking man but his character sure is! We started out as friends and then little by little his kind heart and loving nature grew on me. I feel comfortable, at peace, joyous and even “safe” with him. I am not crazed wondering what is going to happen next, he is consistent. He fits right in with my family, my values, my sense of humor. I wonder sometimes however, if i am “settling”. Only because he didn’t come in the package that I thought “the one” would come in for me. I have always been one to go for the pretty boys and in fact appearances and lust and passion have always been on my list. At times, I even ignored all other traits because the guy was “hot” and loved it that i had a good looking man. While I don’t feel this hot burning flame with him, I do feel a sense of love and appreciation that I don’t think i want to risk losing for the sake of a “better looking man”. Is this what you mean Natalie? How do i know that I am not “settling”? Or if because i have always been involved with “bad boys”/not so healthy relationships, this just seems foreign to me and I don’t know to recognize it as this kind of love that you are referring to? Am I selling myself short? How do we know when we are settling or when we are actually in a healthy no drama, crazy rollercoaster “REAL” relationship with a good man/partner? What should passion and chemistry feel and look like in a healthy relationship or is it ok that all his other traits make up for this in the long run?
Thank you all!!! xoxoxo
I hear ya Fearless – 43 and burnt out here. The AC seems better than nothing. And yet, when I managed to get rid of him temporarily at various stages, I felt happier and more optimistic even if my phone was quiet.
The idea of going out to bar trawling for men never appealed to me so I’m not going to start now. I suppose in my mind a decent relationship is a fairy tale although I did have one way, back but we ended up like brother and sister rather than lovers. Evenso if I could turn the clock back, I’d take that over what came afterwards.
Thanks, Lou. I also feel more optimistic in many ways, particularly as I feel I have nothing to “worry” about anymore, now that I have given up on him I don’t need to worry about it not working anymore!(I am not at all optimistic though for another relationship. The kind of relationship I would want – a good one! – also feels like a ‘fairytale’ to me – I feel I’d be chasing rainbows and I’ve had a whole lifetime of disappointment and dashed hopes; why would I want to go looking for more).
i hate this post! – i hate it because i crave passion and i dont want to compromise – and i have two divorces to prove it! I hate this post, because you are bloody right, again! i thought i was learning but this post is a reminder how far i still have to go!
I hate this post!
My question was how do you find passion and joy when you aren’t interested in dating.
And when I have a full life in terms of interest and activities, which get me out there and exposed to new people all the time. Such as my trip to the UK where we met for lunch.
I think you somehow took my question to mean I am confusing passion with EUM’s, which I am not (anymore).
Or were you simply saying life is just ho-hum sometimes, regardless?
How am I painting myself in a corner ? Not sure why your post seemed to be about unhealthy versus healthy relationships as an answer.
First time I ever felt either I totally misunderstood you, or vice-versa.
Ok I then totally don’t get the question you’re asking me which may be down to jet lag so I’ll reread this comment in a day or two
Hey Natalie
I too feel this way as Anne mentions and sometimes people think i’m just this cold hard person now who has closed off her heart and doesnt believe in romance anymore (and that its no longer fun)! But I dont 100% agree. I feel this site truly helped me to get “real” about relationships and see more of the reality in them and men rather than the fantasy I would hold on to. For the first time, I am happy with “ME” and don’t feel the need to be in a relationship nor the desperate urge to go and find one. Also, when I now think of relationships, the spark is somehow less because i am seeing them more through “realistic” expectations and don’t believe in the superficial “sweep you off your feet” mentality any longer. I have to say that that sometimes scares me as it has changed that spark (or should I say “high”) that I used to feel. It has been bittersweet to not feel that anymore and “finally get there”. For one I am grateful I dont allow my impulses and fantasies to get the best of me anymore but on the other hand, I do sometimes question whether or not I have become a bit harder and colder because of this? Is not believing in “Romantic love” as society has taught us to (especially women with the whole prince charming fairytale) really a blessing or a curse? Is this something you go through when you have reached this level? Or have I now gone to the other extreme? Can you post some more articles regarding this?
Thx and luv your site!!
Excuse me butting in, but it seems that you have sworn off relationships altogether? You are not interested. I know how you feel, I have been celibate for nearly five years.
I think that if you are in the “I’m not interested in relationships” frame of mind you are actually in quite a negative place. You believe that (i) there are no decent men left (ii) if you dated again you would get hurt (iii) you can’t trust your own judgement. None of those thoughts are particularly life-affirming.
I have detected recently a shift in my outlook. I am very happy with my life – with my new friends, new sport, new job. I’ve finally stood up to my parents and the world didn’t cave in. And, quite suddenly, almost overnight, I think that a nice man MIGHT come along. Whereas before I was completely dead set against it.
I’m not saying that I am actively looking for someone but I no longer feel I have to defend myself against the possibility. It’s a more positive place than what was, basically, a position of fear.
Does that make sense?
Nat,
Thanks for the article. Seriously, for as long as we focus on the great sex, fun dates, as the sort of “passion” we want, and make it a high priority, we them give them a free pass on not having to step up to all the other things that come with being in a healthy committed realtionship. And perhaps thats because we are not ready to step up to the plate either.
After my last relationship with a highly narcissitic EUM, I realized that I had been putting alot of importance on this sort of “passion”, and that if I had not been avoiding with my own commitment issues and had really asked him to step up to the plate, we would have broken up far sooner. We were getting by on good times and great sex, superficial conversations, nothing more. What I realize now is that my “passion” was actually adrenaline and anxiety that came with being involved with such an unstable partner… by putting myself in danger. I had been hooked to that sort of adrenaline rush since I was little, as there had been alot of chaos in my upbringing. It didn’t help that my father, who was very loving but an uneven parent at best, had a lawless predatorial attitude when it came to women.
I’m done with it. I am taking a year off to work on myself and get “unhooked”. I am done with getting into a relationship with an emotionally unstable or unavailable man and trying to be the one to bring stability into the relationship, so I can avoid my own issues. I am redefining what passion is for me: being loved and appreciated by a man who respects and honors me. A man with integrity, who is trustworthy and open, who is consistent, dependable. A man who is already ready for a committed relationship, not one “who just might be”, if I perform well enough for him. What a crappy relationship pattern- no thanks!
I love these posts because they slap some sense into me 🙂
Cheers,
jas
This is a great summary of the whole EUM/AC experience and the ensuing journey that starts with NC.
Thanks to this website my own journey began almost two years ago. It’s not over yet, and thats better than OK with me.
Happy Trails : – ))
I have just found this site and am grateful for its wisdom both in Natalie’s posts and the subsequent comments. I am in NC with someone I dated for five months, after not being in a relationship for four years. It was unhealthy! He wanted the passion and excitement; I was ready for something mature. It has been my epiphany, wake up call relationship. I did not ask for NC, I just disappeared and have not responded to his few attempts at reconnection. I feel happier than I have felt since before I met him. Here’s the real gem: when he left, he didn’t take “me” with him. I am still here, intact. And that’s what NC has made me see. Too often these EUM’s come along and give us something we don’t think we have and when they leave…we long to reconnect because we think he’s taken “us” with him! I learned: my value does not lie outside of myself. I own my own value. And I am happy he is out of my life!!
I think I understand where Annie is coming from because I am in a similar place.I wasted all my youth on the roller coasters of passion and sizzling chemistry with various EUMs and ended up with nothing to show for it.And now, thanks to NML and this site, I have figured out the whys and wherefores,put it all behind me and these days live my life with strong boundaries in place and am quite content.But there is a void.And I think that’s normal.Much as we fill our lives with interesting activities and new people, there is no replacing the joy and passion that comes from being in love, and I mean healthy love, not bad boy thrills.I really hope all us former fall back girls get a chance some day to experience the real thing.
@Kellie
I did not ask for NC; I just dissapeared and have not responded to his few attempts of reconnection. You pulled one of my moves. My ex assclown nar didn’t see it coming I know he didn’t. 7 months NC and like a tiger I feel gggrrrrrreeeeaaattt! He made several attempts all to no avail to reconnect with me too. I refused to even allow him any access back into my life. I think with that last phone call it seemed as if he was almost giving up from the message he left on my voicemail. I know that won’t be his last attempt. He just feels he needs to make me think it will be so that I’ll give in to his fascade; phone him and allow him to push; fast forward and RESET once again but its not happening. My dignity; pride and self esteem is much more important and it took me months to get it all back in tact. Keep the NC ladies. It gives them a nervous break down. *all smiles*
I am curious – this may not be there right forum to ask this, but was wondering. Did any of your’s push and push the issue about being friends? I tried to be nice and say I couldn’t be friends and he just kept pushing, pushing my boundries and then would say he loved me, didn’t want to lose me and used his chronic pain about how he couldn’t be in a relationship. Then it had to get ugly just to get him to leave me alone.
Aimee I’ve had the friends card pulled on me a few times. At the time I was flattered that they wanted to be friends but, ultimately, I had to cut them of because for the life of them they COULD NOT behave decently.
We like to think that they want to be friends cos they see that we are terrific. Not so, they want to stay friends for dubious reasons – a possible shag, someone to flirt with, a willing audience, a bit of company but always always always on their terms.
It’s not unusual, Natalie has posted on it.
@ Grace
My issue is I told him I could not be friends because I was still in love and maybe some day we could be – but he kept pushing me and pushing, sending me emails calling, asking me to come over and talk then telling me he loved me, go to the montains and then start acting like we had a future. I guess I need to read more about the pushy-pulley that Nat writes about.
Oh yeah. Here is a typical scenario. The guy is dealing with emotional issues and says he can’t be in a relationship. Then he starts going on and on about friendship and how important that is “since now we are so close”. Don’t do it, unless you have to (because of work, or whatever). You will just get drawn back in emotionally. Friendship leaves hope, and there is little hope that an emotionally unavailable man will change.
I never planned to be his friend at the end – told him so. My take on the friendship card has always been its their way of alleviating any guilt for their behavior, so they can feel and think that they are the nice, good guy. No thanks. I even said to my AC – why is it so important that we be friends – he said don’t you want to surround yourself with good people – I said I already do, people who do not lie to me or cheat on me!! Needless to say he didn’t know what to say to that one! Ha!
jj,
I don’t think it does really give them a nervous break down. That is the fascade that you are talking about they only appear that way. Most of these guys already have other fall back girls. They are just seeing how many are still left in their narcissistic herum, so to speak.
I say this because if they really cared so much about whether we are ignoring them, or are there for them, or whatever, they would have done what was needed in the relationship to begin with so it could remain.
I don’t care about labels so much I am more concern with their actions. Labels are good to just use for these posts or when talking to others to sum things up but thats about it.Their actions demonstrate that they are too in to themselves and they only care as far as “why wouldn’t we want them in our lives because they are great in their own eyes.” They are not crying over us, and pining over us, they are just wondering why would you not want me.”
I use to say to my Eum when I first attempted to walk away and failed at it, “you don’t like anyone not wanting you do you, you can’t stand the thought of someone leaving you, and he would say no not at all. He would sound like a little boy when he would reply.
We need to be either proud for having no contact for us not because we speculate how they feel about it. There are lots of those guys out there living their lives just fine without us and when they talk to us they sound like we are the love of their lives but were not. I don’t think NC is the answer for some people others I think it is definate. I don’t have complete NC but I have NC with other guys from my past where it is necessary.
I have been Nc with my EUM for 14 long days , it hurts to know my relationship was all in my head . He never promised me nor told me he felt anything for me , he just wanted a buddy but I felt he would get to know me better and want more as we have known and liked each other for 20 years. What an idiot I am , I obviously like being used as dont feel good enough for anyone . My friends say I’m good looking and I’m always making everyone laugh , am fun to be around until I like a guy then I don’t know how to be myself .
@Annie
I am so with what you wrote about not really wanting to bother again with a relationship. I am so sickened by my recent break-up after 3 years.
Just when i have been in NC for almost 4 months from the EUM/AC i fell in love with, something triggered in my memory tonight about him and i totally cracked up in tears. This man took me to the top of the mountain, showed me the world from on high, and then – pushed me over into the abyss. I am not sure i will ever get over him. What is it about these type of guys who can get into your heart and your head so easily, they seem to have this charisma about them which almost has the effect as probably a drug you should not even consider taking would. They reel you in, they fake your future with them, make you feel so special, and then you find its some sort of sick game to them in their sick little world. They seem to get a sadistic sort of kick by building you up, to knock you down. Dump you, then take up with another unsuspecting female.
I am usually a really strong person, i also usually watch who i get involved with and how i normally take things slowly in relationships. This guy who has hurt me so much really stole my heart. Is this the usual thing to happen with these EUM/AC guys anyone? I must confess i had never heard, nor as far as i know, met one of these people before – so charming, so pleasant, so attentive, so loving, so caring initially – then they turn into the devil incarnate. It’s this behaviour which has completely thrown me and left me so stunned. The cheating i found out about is unforgiveable. When i found out about it, it made me feel so worthless as if i was not good enough for him physically, but looking at web sites it has helped by reading how lots of men like variety in women and really has nothing to do with anything their partner/wife/lover has not provided them with, it can be seeking an ego stroke, low self-esteem etc on their part. But boy, does it hurt when you know about it, particularly when they have professed undying love for you. I am left with a feeling that how can i ever trust myself to choose a better guy again, what did i do wrong in thinking maybe i could perhaps change this guy once i realised what sort of man he was. You see i never knew men like him existed. I must make sure i read the signs better next time. Right now i cannot even consider a next time. But life must go on….i will get here eventually damn him!
@susiejay
Today I am with you – I hate this rollercoaster of healing and feeling my feelings.
I was celibate for 8 years after I did a relationship with a closet alcoholic (2000). I gave up on dating and threw myself into my new business that had been a dream of mine since I was 16. My life was good – good friends, had fun, exercised, worked too much tho. I always had the feeling that I would meet my partner thru my biz. During 2007 I did some speed dating and cooking for singles classes – no one I was interested in, but had fun. Sold my biz Sept 2007 and was looking forward to taking time off when the AC looked me up 28 yrs later from HS. I thought God had sent me the one.
“This man took me to the top of the mountain, showed me the world from on high, and then – pushed me over into the abyss.” I feel exactly the same way, my heart is broken and I feel like my soul is bleeding.
“They reel you in, they fake your future with them, make you feel so special, and then you find its some sort of sick game to them in their sick little world. They seem to get a sadistic sort of kick by building you up, to knock you down. Dump you, then take up with another unsuspecting female.” My AC is very sadistic – the FBG he is with now – last year he made fun of her to me – “Everyone thought I was going to marry her – hahahaha”. She just broke off an engagement with another man that I was told was a great guy by her sister and is back with the AC (ours that is). He use to brag to me about how all his ex’s wanted him back, how all the girls wanted him, about all the girls he use to take home from this one bar. It was cruel – I would call him on it – but it didn’t help. He would laugh at me when I would cry, he withheld sex, love, phone calls, even when my mom had died.
Do we really want these guys? I think I keep running back to the “fantasy” of who I thought he was in my head – the guy in the beginning. I didn’t want to change mine either – I just wanted him to change back to the guy he portrayed he was in the beginning and showed glimpses of throughout. To be who he said he was.
“I am usually a really strong person, i also usually watch who i get involved with and how i normally take things slowly in relationships.” I am the same way – and I truly believe had my Mom not died 2-3 months in I would have dumped him long ago. I realized I fell apart and expected this man to be there for me – he was never there for me. That was an illusion on both our parts – see in his head he believes he was there for me – which totally blows me away.
I am sorry Susiejay – I pray that we can all find the love we deserve. I am just going to keep moving forward, deal with the grief, do the “work” (therapy, self-esteem, etc) and eventually have hope again. Thinking of you!!
Aimee,
I hope Natalie does more posts on witholding the sex because that was the big one for me. It was detrimental to my self esteem because guys usually are bugging women for sex. Before we did he was and then he use it as some sort of game or something.
@ MH
The withholding sex was an awful blow to my self-esteem. I have never had a man not want to have sex with me, always telling me how sexy I was, plus I love sex. Also, with as many stupid break ups we went thru I NEVER GOT MAKE-UP SEX – What’s with that?
He always told me women wanted him for his money and his sex – and it was good when we did have it – which was proably 10 times in the first 9 months. But nothing for the last 1 1/2 yrs. He said it was his chronic pain – but he even quit french kissing me, touching me in ANY sexual manner – just regular pecks and cuddling at night. Even on Valentines Day I wore a sexy night gown – and NOTHING!! I think he was being passive-agressive. He even went as far as saying one time “would if I never have another hard-on, it will only be a matter of time before you cheat on me”. I of course told him that I love sex, but I loved him more and I would never cheat on him, that I enjoyed sex with someone I love and he was the one I loved.
In hindsight I feel manipulated. I still don’t know if it’s cause of the chronic pain, his age (47) and his drinking/ drugs for the pain, or cause he was having sex with someone else. I approached the issue many times and he always said it was not me – but never any true detail. He also lies/lied about his feelings so I will never know. I would love to see if Nat has had experience with this herself or with readers/posters as well.
In the last post ( Are you clutching a security blankie ?) there is a comment in the beginning of the comments section about trauma bonding and intermittent reinforcement. That info really hit home for me and put together a big piece of the puzzle of understanding what I went through with the AC.
Susiejay, I know right where you are coming from. I have been NC for almost 5 months. I am the one who initiated it and left him (although he practically pushed me out), but I too am having nostalgic thoughts about him more just lately. It is almost like it is the final letting go of hope and that reality is sinking in a little deeper. I have had sleepless nights the past week and have found myself thinking about him more again, welling up in tears. I don’t miss him, in fact I am trying to not hate him, but I do miss the relationship I thought existed. It is trying to get over the loss of him and trying to stay real that the relationship I thought we were in never existed. Even though It never was real, I grieve it, because to me it was. I will never understand him and that bothers me some too. The “whys?” still creep up on me and I end up going over things in my head. I get mad at myself for doing this and sometimes don’t know how to shut it off. It sucks. Life is better for me now, but I still feel a sadness.
Jennynic,
I am going through exactly what you are going through. Many of us are probably. It is the grieving process. The grieving process goes in waves. It is not in linear fashion. We go through the idealizing phase and forget the bad. We need a post from Nat on this because I am struggling with this issue lately.
Hi Aimee,
Today is another day so i do feel brighter especially after my tears last night.
Everything you say is like a mirror image of my relationship. His brother was taken ill and i frequently asked how he was (he had never introduced me to his brother btw in 3 years), but because i am a caring person i took an interest. Then one of my brothers had a stroke – guess what? When i told him, he did not even comment and yet he had been introduced to all of my family at a gathering Christmas 2007. He doesnt like children – they get on his nerves, he doesnt like discussing world events he has ‘no interest’ in fact looking back, he doesnt seem to like or take an interest in anything but HIMSELF! I actually fell over one night and hurt my back, my leg, my arm, almost knocked myself out and he insisted on having sex that night telling me not to whinge!!
Initially this EUM/AC (probably a bit of both) was really nice to me, he said he was going to build his life around me which i thought was a nice thing to say. Little did i know how MY life would end up when he decided i was surplus to his requirements. I am not sure if he is still with the person he cheated on me with, but i am also not sure if she is the only one, there may be at least one other, so i comfort myself with the fact that i am well out of it. Its just the getting over the shift in his manner towards me and the way in which he ended the relationship which has completely thrown me. I never saw it coming. How can you when one day he was all over me like a rash and then immediately the day afterwards he told me he did not want to be with me anymore? I must get some literature about the way these guys operate so i can tune up my antenna for te future.
Well Aimee i feel we should feel sorry for these guys in some way because we do have emotions which are ‘normal’ . So i look forward to healing and finding that certain someone i am sure is out there somewhere, as the song goes!
I shall think of you too, i am sure i shall be commenting on Nat’s brilliant sites for a long time.
Susie,
I’m glad you’re out!
One thing I would like to point out is, is that it not “normal” to stay in a relationship that is so unhealthy. It is very important to understand why we were there and why we tolerated so much emotional abuse. If we do not, we will end up in a similar situation.
SusieJay,
These guys are too into themselves and their behaviours are not personal. I know a concept I have had to struggle with.
My EUM invited me to a party one night at a mutual friends place and some of our mutual friends were there. My EUM left the party early because he had to go to work at 5 am and I left shortly after. A week later my EUM called me to tell me one of our friends got thrown through a glass window that night at the party. Thats all he tells me. I said is our friend okay and he said I don’t know. I said why don’t you know. Then he said because I didn’t asked. I said what is wrong with you? You should ask because you should be a concerned friend. Oh yeah your right I should be concerned he said. Next phone call he had all the details about our friend. My goodness that is just sad. He just lacks empathy and is oblivious. Qualities I don’t want in a man.
Natalie – This post has me a bit confused. I have been trying to work things through with my ex AC – we have children and need to be able to communicate for their sake. He has agreed to go to councilling – something he wouldn’t have considered during the relationship. At first I was thrilled but am now scared and not sure. I know he is a narcissist and that I in no way want the relationship to begin again. Very clear on that. I also know friendship is completely off the table, as I know all he wants from me is an ego stroke and to make himself feel better by dragging me down. Your post talks about knowing when a relationship is worth working on and how that is better than the passionate fireworks that really just mask drama and BS. OK, I get all that. But when there are kids involved, is it ever a bad idea to keep working on the relationship? I have no expectations at this point, there is nothing I need or want from him and I don’t need him to validate me. I see him and his behaviour very clearly. All I want now is peace of mind, calm interactions and to stop the mental confusion, anxiety and distress that past interactions with this man caused me. I have had a few people tell me not to bother with the counselling, that nothing good or productive will come from it and that I am only setting myself up for more pain and disappointment. However, I think that if I go into it with no expectations and no desire for drama (something I have been guilty of in the past), that the worst that can happen is nothing really changes. I am hoping someone else can help us learn to talk to each other, as he tends to just shout me down, humiliate me and blame me for everything. When there is a reason to keep these destructive people in your lives – shared kids, working together, family members, whatever – is it not worth it to keep trying to make things better? How do you know when you are just wasting time, spinning your wheels or feeding the drama demon? I want to think my motives are good but this post has me wondering.
CE
The worst that can happen is that you get dragged back into it. In fact, if he is lacking in self awareness and is selfish, that’s what will happen. You’ll be jumping through hoops and compromising while he will exploit you for whatever he can get.
I don’t think it’s worth it. You only need to get on sufficiently well to pass the kids to each other without drama and attend the odd school play together. There’s no need for more than that.
And why should you not have expectations? I see women here all the time thinking that is a good thing. It’s having no expectations which landed us in this mess in the first place! It’s what gives the men carte blanch to do as they please. We should have expectations, especially around how people will treat us.
I re-read your post more carefully . I think you’re better off with individual counselling for yourself first rather than with him. He sounds overbearing, to put it mildly. And dangerous to your mental health.
Grace,
Bravo, that is very informative. “it is having no expectations that got us here in the first place. Expectations is what got me out of my mess with my EUM and why he is with some other girl and thank goodness I am no longer in the mess.
CE….Go to counselling for your sake and your kids if that’s what you want even if he never shows. Not sure his motives are pure since he didn’t want to go when you were together. But if it helps you all the better.
NML – Terrific post. I continue to fight my drama demons and love of difficult men. I am still working on forging healthy relationships and loving myself enough to walk away from anything not positive or in my best interest. I have been reading through the back catalogue today because I am trying to figure something out. Perhaps you or some of your readers can help me – I would like to hear others thoughts on this:
I have read from several credible sources that “the silent treatment” is a form of abuse in relationships. It is a struggle for power, a painful, passive-aggressive means of controlling your partner. Fair enough, although I am ashamed to say I have resorted to it on a few occassions. My question – how is no contact different from the silent treatment? Specifically in my case – I work with my former EUM/AC jerk and after a very painful end to the relationship, I went no contact, even though we had to see each other every day. That, to him, read as “the silent treatment”. He responded badly. At first, he just ignored me. Then, he tried to talk and I expressed my anger and frustration with him and let him know that I wanted nothing further from him. He then began to berate me and accuse me of all manner of things. We both lapsed into silence/no contact. Two months later, it now feels ridiculous, others at our work place are complaining and the lack of communicaton has caused real problems.
I get the reason for no contact and it really helped me when I needed it. It let me disengage from a very painful, destructive relationship and allowed me to take off the rose colored glasses and see him clearly. But the no contact has unquestionably turned into the silent treatment and is now feeling childish, punative and silly.
I read this post today and tried to make sense of my situation in light of it. I don’t want any more drama and the silent treatment feels like drama. I don’t want any more relationships with assclowns and there is no question that my ex is one – a great big one. The objective here is not to re-establish the relationship. What reading this site and others today has shown me is that I am being abusive here. I am being silent and ignoring him (literally -I pretend he is dead, even if we are the only two people in the room. It felt empowering at first but now leaves me feeling ridiculous).
I am trying to strike a healthy balance. I acknowledge that my relationship patterns are not necessarily any healthier than his were. I admit that I have used the silent treatment on occassion to express anger and frustration without actually having to express it.
I read all the posts on no contact and understand what you are suggesting within the context of breaking free of abusive or bad relationships. What I cannot now figure out is how to continue to interact with someone when you have a reason to have contact (for example children or working together). I agree with other sites that say the silent treatment is abuse – it feels that way, and I am ashamed to say I have used it for exactly the reasons given.
I want an end to the drama. I no longer feel the need for it. Please, let me be clear – the only reason I want to re-establish professional contact with my EUM is because it is necessary for our jobs. I want to rid myself of all my unhealthy relationship and interpersonal habits and this is one of my worst.
Any suggestions from you or your readers would help so much. I am really struggling with this. I got chewed out by my supervisor last week because the lack of communication between me and my ex is causing real problems at work. I know its about boundaries and maintaining a professional attittude at work. I just truly can’t seem to make myself do it. This man was so abusive and hurtful to me, I have built myself a wall and want to stay behind it. Ugh – help.
It’s different to the silent treatment because there is no relationship to manipulate. In fact, remaining friends is the EUMs/ACs way of manipulating YOU. NC signifies it is OVER. It’s perfectly okay for people to break up and then not see each other again or have contact, otherwise most people on the planet would be hanging around with half a dozen exes, or more. Of course, for us fallback girls, hanging around with exes is what we do. But it’s not exactly desirable unless said ex is genuinely a friend and there are zero romantic feelings on both side. And there has to be some time passed. You can’t just go from girlfriend to friend in a few months.
Your situation is complicated because you work together. You need to find a way to keep it strictly business. Imagine he is a woman you have to work with, who you don’t particularly like but can deal with to get things done.
Sarah You said…“the silent treatment” is a form of abuse in relationships. It is a struggle for power, a painful, passive-aggressive means of controlling your partner.
The operative word is “partner”. That’s the difference between the silent treatment and NC. So which one is he really to you if you’re in that mind set. It seems to me you’re trying to talk yourself into having some kind of personal relationship even though you might not know it.
You can work with him you just don’t have to be best buds at work period. The lack of communication at work and getting chewed out because of it is only giving him more power over you both personally and professionally. He obviously knows how to play this game at work and maybe you should take a lesson from that.
There is another on this site that had to endure I think almost a year of her ex’s mistreatment at work but she stood up to him and endured coming out stronger in the end. Hopefully she’ll tell her story again.
Hey Sarah,
I can relate to your situation somewhat. My ex-AC is my neighbor. I know that is not the same as a working relationship, where you are required to interact on a professional level, but it does represent its own set of challenges, and maybe some of those are similar.
Our relationship ended altogether when he gave me the silent treatment, and I decided that was unacceptable. So, we were at a Mexican stand-off. Who could go the longest in the stupid game of ignoring each other. I broke the silence, and tried to talk things out, which accomplished nothing. I was not really surprised. Communication with him was never good.
But I think there is a difference. The silent treatment was meant to punish him. NC was meant for my own sanity and mental health. For me, NC means not communicating with him about anything personal. Not calling him up trying to be friends. Not contacting him for any sort of contrived excuse. And definitely not responding to him if he attempts to get personal.
I now wave if I see him, because it would just be weird and stupid not to, and I really don’t want to feed into his ego and give him any reason to feel victorious at my childish behavior, because it only shows how much power he still has, if I am still so angry that I ignore him.
He has contacted me on a few occasions about neighborhood issues. I conversed with him briefly. Kept it polite, friendly, and on subject, and kept it short. I do not bad-mouth him to any of the neighbors. Is it hard to be so polite and distant and pretend there was never anything more? Hell, yes. Do I want to shout out to the whole neighborhood (and his new girlfriend) his bad behavior? You bet. Do I want to give him the finger, instead of a wave when we pass each other? Like you would not believe.
I guess what I am trying to say is that I feel better about myself with this form of NC. I feel dignified and worthy, rather than bitter and vindictive. The anger is getting better. I do still have bad days, but the good ones are more often than the bad ones now. The healing may be slower, since he is not out of sight, and therefore not out of mind completely.
But we all have to ask ourselves what our limits are. Can you work with your ex professionally? If it’s just too much, there is no shame in that. I am still not sure I want to stay in my house.
I know it’s not good to live in la-la land, but having him so close by is sometimes too much reality, too much in my face.
@Sarah: I remember making a similar comment a month or so ago – that NC felt more intimate than being distant ‘friends’, and that I felt a bit silly and, possibly, immoral. It’s hard to evaluate these things – they’re not really measurable – but my gut sense is that, in situations where you work with your ex AC/EUM, it may be necessary to have some sort of quick conversation that you want to be civil or professional in the workplace, but that does not signal anything about how you feel about the past or an intention to be friends.
However, this role can only be viable if you can honestly say to yourself that you can convincingly and happily play it. And, put simply, I don’t think you can at the moment. I think if you could, you wouldn’t be asking. It would just happen in a more natural, confident way.You’re simply not ready – you’re still angry and hurt, and, most importantly, needing to maintain distance so you can keep working on yourself.
I totally understand you want to practice better relationship habits, but you don’t need to do that with him, and I assure you NC that comes from a steady, confident place (as a smart way of caring for yourself) is not akin to the silent treatment, which is childish and rooted in a desire to get attention or manipulate in some way.
I had some similar feelings – though for me, I rarely, if ever, do the silent treatment, so NC seemed completely bizarre. In any case, I think until you can naturally fall into a sensible professional rapport, NC is the way to go. But don’t allow yourself to “feel” (and then enact) a childishness about it. Think: dignified poise. Also – remember that the intensity of everything positive you’re learning is, in part, a function of NC!
All the best
Many thanks to all those who responded. I have given serious thought to getting another job and leaving. On one level, that seems to give him too much power. On another level, I recognize this man is actually abusive. He was physically threatening on several occasions during the relationship and has been unquestionably emotional abusive throughout it. He continues to be abusive in the workplace, when we do communicate. He belittles and disrespects me (he actually spent an entire meeting I was chairing sitting with his back to me, staring out the window). I have tried to maintain my poise and calm and for the most part, I see the behaviour as childish and silly. I just don’t want my silence and distance to be interpretted by the others I work with as having the same childish basis.
There is no question this man hurt and angered me and I have done everything in my power over the past months to work on me, work through that and let it go and get past it and this site has been amazing for that. As I have come to love and respect myself more, my tolerance for his abusive behaviour has diminished and I want to love and take care of myself. The silence and distance has felt right to me in that regard. I admit I started it to get his attention but now do it solely for my own peace of mind and benefit.
In an ideal world, I would never have to see or interact with this individual again. But this is not an ideal world and I feel that the time has come in my recovery and growth to begin to address this issue head on. I have stripped away the illusions, picturing, hooks and other denial mechanisms I have been using. I guess I continue to struggle with how to deal with a truly abusive person. Everything I have read says simply get away from them, and I feel that is right. Simply going silent and ignoring him does not work in my workplace and I need to find another solution. It just feels sad to me that quitting a job I otherwise love has to be that solution.
I would definitely look for another job. Don’t look at him as getting the upper hand-and who cares anyhow-but that you would have peace in your life.
Can’t you speak to a superior about his childish ways, as they do affect your business environment and are very unprofessionl?
@ Sarah
Its understandable to want to maintain that wall of protection. You need a lot more time to process the specific actions that hurt you, grieve and respond differently next time. However, there are clearly exceptions to the NC rule and yours is one of them. Co-workers is impractical. Have you read NML ebook? My understanding is NC silence is used to specifically re-establish boundaries, its like getting back to a neutral zone it is to give yourself time to regroup after any breakup not just EUM. The intention is not to hurt them as in the hot and cold game, it is to regroup your inner self by removing the object of distraction or harm. If you have to work with the ex then be clear about your new boundaries. What mental boundaries are you wanting to put in place for emotional and physical protection? In my opinion, its good you managed 2 months NC, (despite working together) have you processed a lot in that time? (retorical questions) Have you upped your self-esteem so as not to fall back into a familiar pattern with him? Recovery is still about moving forward, focussing on your new life goals, rewriting your future, what new classes (Passions) have you started or dream about starting? Try to stay focussed on you and perhaps a little bit of contact will even help you progress faster. You will see the games, red flags, dangled carrots as if they have a beacon attached. It can reinforce your determination not to be treated that way by anybody. Try a new way of responding to the previous dance. Be specific with your new needs. for example: ‘please do not contact me out of work hours’, nor by text….whatever is appropriate to you. Discuss the work and avoid any personal chit chat….As long as you keep your self esteem increasing (I find positive affirmations so subtle and powerful) you will find your wall of protection can be gradually dissolved, because your new protection will be safe boundaries. Get support elsewhere if you need it…..hope that gives you a view without going too far off NML original topic.
RuthT
“Boundaries are there to protect you. They’re called self-respect. When they’re a fortress around you, they’re not healthy boundaries, they are your means of keeping people out and not allowing yourself to be vulnerable. Respecting yourself shouldn’t feel like punishment.”
Wow. So true. So hard to realize, though. I’ve always had really poor boundaries with men. The latest assclown was a friend I’d known for a long time. Snuck in under the radar. Still an assclown. But this website has been a godsend. I choose me, now. I choose to have self-respect now. I choose to have real connections with people now. It’s hard as hell. But I choose me.
I have a question: if you’re off EUMs and ACs and you meet a decent bloke, but they’ve just come out of a serious relationship and want to be single for a while (as has happened to my flatmate and the lovely guy she recently met) does this mean they are decent and honest, but temporarily emotionally unavailable? I guess my question is: can people be EU for a while because of cirumstance rather than character? And what does it say about us recovering Fallback girls if we’re attracted to these people who are obviously not ACs, but are not ready to be with us? Is it a sort of halfway house between healthy and unhealthy relationships?
Minky,
Just my opinion, but I think there is a difference between emotionally unavailable, and taking time to process and grieve a recent break-up. The key is in how this lovely new man behaves. If he says he is not ready to date, etc. and holds true to that by his actions, by not messing around your friend, then he is a decent guy, with integrity.
Some guys will say they don’t want a relationship, and then jump into bed with you 5 minutes later. And they feel justified in calling themselves decent, because they gave the disclaimer up front.
I am not saying it is all up to the guy to set the limits. If your friend knows he’s not ready, she should also step back.
Hi NML and all the lovely BR ladies,
I haven’t posted in a while. This article really hit home. I am definately OFF eum’s and will adhere to my newfound boundaries. I need your help on something that is really hurting me right now. I know it has been discussed before but I just need some support please.My ex is with a new girl and has been since a month after he left. I know that future behavior is most easily determoined by past behavior but a can’t shake the feeling that she is getting treated the way he should have treated me. Words of wisdom please.
Ramona
Ramona,
There is no way he’s going to treat the next one better. I can tell you that for a fact. Whether he’s Mr. Unavailable, or a Narcissistic jerk — they aren’t cured by anyone they meet. They have major emotional issues and problems – and it wasn’t you, and it wasn’t me.
Here’s where I’ll try to take my own advice. Isn’t easy after being drug through the mud is it?
Hi ithinkibeenhad…cute name:)
Thanks for responding. Yeah…mud dragging sucks. Im just still trying to get past it and it has been almost a year since he moved out. I suppose his true self will show to her at some point as it did with me. thanks again.
Ramona
Ramona,
I have struggled (and some days still do) with that same awful feeling of him treating his new girlfriend so much better than he treated me.
Then I remembered how I also had that same feeling with my ex-husband, after we divorced. My ex-husband made contact with me not so long ago (we have been divorced almost 20 years now). And it gave me the opportunity to see that he was still an assclown, after all that time!!! Made
me realize that my current ex-boyfriend was probably still an assclown, too. The fact that his new girlfriend is still around probably says more about her willingness to put up with his crap, than it says about how he’s changed.
Annie I hear you and understand what you mean. What I have learned is that in a relationship the passion comes from me sharing myself with another individual. I have learned to channel that passion. I have joined a book club. I’ve become more proactive with my girlfriends and my life in general. I go to the movies by myself and I feel good about it. You don’t NEED that other to have passion in your life. Try to enjoy a good erotica and learn to self pleasure to get that sexual high. The other person should only be the icing on your cake not the cake itself or that wonderful gooey chocolate inside. Best of luck.
And Nat, it’s because of you I’ve attained the peace I have with myself now. I’ve learned how to become emotionally available to myself and to love me!