Over the past couple of posts (part one and part two) I’ve been talking about when you’re involved with someone who you don’t feel that you can ask questions of, or when you do, you get met with lies, a brick wall of silence, aggression, or passive aggressive behaviour. In the last post I focused on two key questions that you should know the answer to:
Do you have a girlfriend/wife/separated wife?
Are you interested in having a committed relationship (with me)?
The first question is about confirming that the person is actually in a position to be involving themselves with you in the first place, with the answer, if it’s negative acting as a major red flag and a signal to abort the mission. The latter question, while some may consider it a difficult one, is about getting a level of clarification about where they are at emotionally and in terms of what they want out of life so that you can decide if this is something that you want to be involved in.
There is a reason why I make a point of saying ‘a level of clarification’ – for a relationship to progress and for you to feel that you can have mutually love, care, trust, and respect, there must be action.
This means that you must not go into simple mode and assume that if someone says something that it makes it so, because whatever they have said only means something if it is backed up with action.
The answers to your questions take on meaning based on the action around them. If the persons actions match their words, then you are with someone with integrity who is acting in line with themselves and being authentic.
If the words don’t match the actions and in fact contradict them or throw up even more questions, it is a glaring red flag that you are not able to trust in what they say so you must base assumptions you make about them on their actions.
I get women explaining to me that they do ask questions but that their guy lies and he can’t be trusted so they can’t be sure of the answer. That’s not true – you have the answer.
Make sure you look at the bigger picture and don’t get lost in chasing the answer to one question or a few questions – if someone cannot be trusted to tell you the truth, has told lies and has been caught out on it, and still leaves questions over whether they are telling you the truth, it means that they cannot be trusted. Either they are untrustworthy or you don’t trust them but either way it adds up to the same thing – a relationship that cannot work.
Suspend disbelief for a moment and imagine that you are sitting at a table in an examination room and you have to make a judgement on your situation based on the information that you possess right now. What would you write down on the paper?
If you ask a question of the man you are dating or in a relationship with, and you get lies, aggression, follow up passive agression, silence, or a sustained period of The Dripfeed Manouver (when someone feeds you the truth a drip at a time), the answer is get out of the relationship.
Stop being an investigator and use the intelligence and common sense that you would apply outside your relationship inside your relationship.
You’re in search of 100% definitive answers ideally being said to you in the way that you want it to be said. Just like how someone doesn’t have to say that ‘I want out of the relationship’ to communicate that they want out of it, you must remember a fundamental thing about communication that will save you throwing away your life being the bounty answer hunter:
Communication is not all verbal.
It’s what you say, but also what goes unsaid. It’s what you do, but also what doesn’t get done. This means you must take in both visual and verbal cues and make a judgement instead of relying on words.
Actions speak louder than words.
People who don’t tell the frickin truth are all about taking advantage of the reliance of people on words instead of actions.
I explain in Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl is getting wise about the use of open and closed questions, something you should be aware about when thinking about what questions to ask because it shapes the type of reply you will get:
“There are basically two types of questions, open and closed. Open questions require the person to open up and provide information, whereas closed questions will get you a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ response. Questioning techniques are often talked about in sales but some of the principles are very applicable to dating and in the broader sense, communication.
Closed questions are very direct and can sometimes appear to be a bit confrontational and make the person feel they’’re being interrogated or interviewed for a job. They are however key in nailing down information and preventing your date from dodging being honest. Example: Do you have a girlfriend?
Open questions are more indirect but give you the possibility of them imparting a lot of information about themselves – opening up. If in doubt, as a general rule of thumb, open questions start with Who, What, When, Where, How, and Why.
Tone is key here and it is important that you relax and ask the question in an open, friendly manner. You need to use open questions to get your date talking and closed questions to nail down the information and confirm what you have deciphered. Now it is very possible that you can find out vital information through open questions in a general conversation but the problem that us Fallback Girls have is that because he hasn’t flat out stated something, or we’re afraid of hearing bad news, we don’t probe further.”
Before you question, remember a few key things:
1) Don’t interrogate unless you either want them to behave like a crime suspect or you have exhausted all the nice routes.
2) Don’t always choose negative situations to start questioning because it’s viewed as negative questioning.
3) Likewise avoid sounding too emotional and go for calm, neutral, but interested.
4) Make sure it is actually a question, not a statement/accusation.
5) If you’ve asked it before, ask it differently because question insanity is asking the same question repeatedly, getting the same answer, but continuing to ask and expecting a different result.
6) Be prepared to accept their answer as the truth (unless you happen to have evidence to the contrary) and based on that answer, ensure that their actions match their words.
7) If you don’t trust their answer, it is a major red flag and if the distrust persists, it means that the question hasn’t been answered or you’re not happy with the answer.
8) If you find that they claim to tell you the truth, then admit that they didn’t further down the line and basically dripfeed you the truth, wash your hands of them – you will never know the truth with someone like this because they will tell you what they feel you need to know.
Remember the bigger picture: If you can’t trust the responses to your questions, it answers the question of whether you should stick or fold at the relationship.
On the issue of not trusting the answer, ask yourself whether the distrust is based on real concerns based on external factors – ie his behaviour, his response, what you know his consistent character to be. Or ask yourself it’s based on internal factors i.e your distrust based on going with same guy different package hence knowing what to expect, a general distrust of people and relationships, insecurity, paranoia etc. If you can rule out the latter because you have your judgement and even evidence to back up your assessment of the situation, you know that the person cannot be trusted. If it’s the latter, you know you can’t trust yourself which means you need to resolve this otherwise you will never be able to trust people you’re in relationships with or your judgement.
Dating is a discovery and fact finding period. The idea is that you discover what you need to know to either potentially forge a relationship or to back away from one before you get too emotionally invested and are loving and trusting blindly.
You go in with a reasonable level of trust (if you don’t have it, you shouldn’t be dating), and the idea is that as you ask questions and get to know the person, it acts like a series of checks and balances – you’ll either feel more trusting or less trusting if you are not up in the sky with your head in the clouds betting on potential or suffering with I Can Change Him, or just in flat out denial.
Your thoughts?
The final part 4 (running tomorrow Wednesday) has a selection of questions. If you have any specific types of questions that you would like to be included or would like one you have to be ‘rephrased’, include it in the comments below.
There is one fundamental element in each of these critical questions.
The first establishes the Position of the potential partner (single? married? babydaddy?, etc) and the second is about Feelings: What do you feel for/about me?
The first (Are you really single?) should be established on the first date, or before; maybe from introducing friends, or at casual coffee meeting. Assuming he doesn’t lie.
The second (Do you want a relationship?) will take longer to establish; but it should be very clearly established before you invest your body’s pathways in him. Once you have established a physical intimacy, you will be less likely to detect the non-verbal negative answers to this
important question.
Hard to do, but worth it. Find out first, is he single? And, are you someone to be the major part of his life, or just something casual, quick, and at his pleasure?
If you can navigate this, using the techniques that NML describes (like heeding Red Flag Alerts) you can keep your relationships off the “Forum” pages of Baggage Reclaim.
Thanks, as always, NML!
“a relationship… should be very clearly established before you invest your body’s pathways in him.”
This is really right on thinking. Sexual intimacy can cover up the lack of emotional intimacy in a relationship and that can leave one stuck and hopeful that the emotional intimacy will be coming soon, because the sexual intimacy is there. I don’t think it usually works that way.
I have not been single for thirty years and this issue of sexual intimacy is really interesting to me at my mature age. I grew up in the age of free love ( and that was before incurable std’s that could kill you ) so back then was little hesitation in jumping right in. But something in my thinking has changed about this. I don’t think casual sex wrong, just that its often a mistake because you may only get the sex as the intimacy. I think many men are probably very comfortable staying at that level of intimacy.
Being out and meeting new people these days I see many budding relationships in older age groups and I am surprised at how men expect sex after a few dates. I am equally surprised at the fact that so many women go there.
When I split up with my long term partner a few years back it was inconceivable to me that I could go without physical intimacy, but lo and behold, I am totally cool with it now. In fact, I am thinking I may buck all trends of my whole generation and choose to make love only with a man who is able to be emotionally intimate first, without the sex.
So, I’ll go without. This does not seem bad in any way as I am forever hopeful that I will meet a good man. And it will weed out the guys that really are only interested in, or able to do, casual or EU relationships.
I forgot to say thanks to Natalie for running this site, and to all the people who post. The EUM that got me here, and all the learning and thinking I have done since I have been reading here, is making me stay aware and focused of what I want and how to make sure I do my part to get it.
I am grateful of those who have shared warnings of heartbreaking behaviors/ red flags, things that I may have previously been inclined to minimize or gloss over…so thanks again to everyone here.
Oh thank you! I really appreciate you taking the time to share your gratitude – very heartwarming! Hugs x
When the Sexual Revolution took place, it rebelled against entrenched, institutional (like religious) notions of acceptable behavior for women. The freedom to avoid sexual repression by these male dominated social institutions was seen as a big plus. Women could be just like men now. And single Mothers were to be just as respectable as married ones.
But what was missed in this revolution against ancient taboos (many honored only in the breach, but still socially upheld; pregnant women got married.) What was missed was the psychological/physiological investment that many of these now-free (of taboos) women invested in the now-free (of responsibilities) men. These female investments weren’t removed with the new freedoms.
So, even though you are free, your physiological system, bred to keep you close to a protective male by thousands of years of evolution (who survived better? the female who had a protective male, or the one who was free to roam the jungle and get eaten by a tiger?) isn’t setting you up for success in today’s world. You have to be clever to understand exactly whom/what you are investing in, before you give away the goods; because your mind will follow.
Interesting….and well said. I was actually thinking the same thing (not so much on the evolution front) but I would add that I feel the sexual revolution caused a “burp” for an entire generation of women….it’s as if we just got folded out of healthy relationship patterns all together. Every generation has their pros and cons of how they relate but I don’t recall a generation that “literally” had such a huge percentage (%) of people that never married. Women today don’t have to commit to anything and yet we still yearn for that bond / closeness.
We can have sex anywhere, anytime and with any gender without the restrictions of previously held taboos and it seems that it made our men weaker!! Young and immature men is somewhat predictable but the pick of men seems to go to sh** the older they get. But to end on a good note…..Thank God for NML’s site or I would still be stuck with my AC.
“Young and immature men is somewhat predictable but the pick of men seems to go to sh** the older they get.” – Hilarious! Thankfully, you’re getting wiser at picking your way through them!
I think your point about what we yearn for is very key – we have to learn to be consistent and living in line with the values and desires we profess to have. We can’t have it all ways and with closeness does come commitment. We need to minimise the conflicts of our own actions and desires.
*Great* comment. I think that despite all of the supposed changes that we have experienced in the past 50 years or so, men and women are going around like headless chickens. The way to cut past all of the BS is to get back to basics and make sure that you’re being your authentic self, know your values, boundaries, red flags and navigate other peoples behaviour based on that. When we morph and adapt to try to fit in with men who don’t want to be fitted in with, we lose ourselves and time is not as kind to us women as men. We have to do due diligence and check out our investment and continue to assess the risk and ensure that whatever we think we’re involved in is what it actually is.
Amen! I found myself using the fact that guys would push for sexual intimacy without really trying to get to know me, as a reason to lose interest. I felt very devalued by this type of behaviour and also knew that I was likely to be confused and/or blindsided by it. I often recommend to people that they take a sex break or the very least lengthen the amount of time they take to sleep with someone because libido causes us to miss key pieces of information. It’s good to buck your own trend – you’re also bucking the relationship insanity – I bet it feels good!
Very well said! Yes it means having to get out of our comfort zone or hear ‘bad news’ but the truth shall set us free. I agree about the whole investing “your body’s pathways in him.” Something I have often talked about is The Justifying Zone, a place that we go to after we have emotionally or sexually invested too quickly and then feel compelled to keep justifying that initial investment by clinging to the relationship and looking for reasons to make the initial actions legit. Sex confuses things. Unless you can be very alert and know how to keep your emotions in check and use your judgement, it will all get v hazy.
NML great article!
I actually have a question. I know many people are against online dating but it happens that it has worked with a couple of my friends. Lets say you want to weed out the non commital types (players) online. Stating in your ad:
“I would like to meet someone who is open and ready for a serious relationship” (this of course in addition to stating who you are,etc in your profile)
Would you say that statement sounds fair to ask or request right there in your profile? or is something that should be asked individually as you get to know the person?.
I ask because to some people it may sound as “desperate” or giving away the girl’s desire to have a serious relationship. But given that the first interaction is non physical, through a computer, why wasting each others time and not being clear on what you want to whoever reads it.?
I would like your opinion on this. I guess my question is what would be the version of this Love lesson when the first interaction is through an online dating website where you are not assuming but its obvious that the person is already single.
I think it’s a bit naive to assume that anyone on an internet dating site is single, just because they say they are. There is no easier place to lie and say anything you want than online. With no non-verbal cues to give you a sense of whether what someone says is in line with reality, you really have no way of knowing when someone is being dishonest. Having been on the internet dating scene for quite some time, I have also found that it really made no difference whatsoever if I included anything about wanting to meet someone who wanted to be in a committed relationship in my profile. My experience is that men on these sites are usually responding to your photo, and often have not even given the rest of the profile more than a cursory glance. I think both questions are important, no matter where you are meeting people for dating/relationships.
To be honest, you can say this in your ad but it doesn’t mean you’ll get it and the only real way you’ll find out is as you get to know them. Anybody can say anything they want to. However – being up front about what you want means that someone who responds to you and turns out to have no interest in a relationship, period, means that you have the right to call them on their duplicity. If you’re going to be explicit in your ad say ‘I’m only interested in meeting people who are open and ready for a serious relationship’ which is much clearer. ‘Like’ says it’s what you would like but you’ll potentially be open to other things…
NML thanks for your insight. You are right, I didn’t realize the word “like” sounds a bit passive. And yes, I am fully aware online dating is tricky but I was wondering how to apply this lesson in the web world. WHich by the way its only an addition to meeting men in the real world. My mission now is to scare off as many “non comital types” as I can and everywhere I can :).. I bet an EUM or AC who reads: ” I am only interested in serious relationship” most likely will turn me down. Who among the EUM wants to waste his precious time in such a “emotional consuming” situation when there are tons of women who just want to have fun?. A few could still try to make contact but with the baggage reclaim training I think it will be very difficult not to spot them.
Great post! Thanks again!
I think the second question is actually two questions, and one has to come first:
1. Are you interested in a committed relationship (in general)? That’s something you need to know within the first few dates. If you’re looking for a committed relationship, and you meet someone who says he’s only looking for something casual, or he’s never getting married again, or (etc.), you know right there that he doesn’t want what you want, so you might as well not waste any more time on him.
2. Are you interested in a committed relationship with me? You probably can’t and shouldn’t ask this until you’ve been seeing each other regularly for a couple of months at least. Until that point, you barely know each other, and anyone healthy will probably freak out at any premature demands of “so, are we exclusive and falling in love and living happily ever after yet?” I’ve certainly made that mistake before, and I’ve been on the receiving end of it, too.
.-= Building My Wings´s last blog ..The challenge of forgiveness =-.
Absolutely. It’s important to know when each one applies as of course, if you’re asking for commitment and you don’t know them yet, it conveys the wrong message. Well said.
When you ask the questions, be very alert to “high level, vague” answers, “non-responses,” and “parroting.”
The last guy I dated would give these “high level vague” answers. Normally, I am very good at hearing these and probing further, but this guy was so good at it, that he would throw in a “small crumb” that, on the surface, sounded like an “answer” but when I processed it later, it wasn’t an “answer” per se, but just “high level vague words.” So later, I would ask what he meant by that, and he would get mad at me for pressing further. Now, this guy wasn’t cheating on me, he was just an A/C that was incapable of emotional intimacy and didn’t know how to be in a relationship. The dude also had a lot of “baggage” he had never processed.
And communication being “non-verbal.” Well, the A/C I recently dated had a “thing” where he would never say yes or no to things. If you asked a “yes/no” question, he would just look at you and say nothing. That is not a response it’s a NON-RESPONSE. If this is done a LOT, RED FLAG! I watched the dude interact with other people, and other people would ignore the “non-response” and “presume” that the answer is “yes” just because he looked at them. Then they would be OH SO SURPRISED when he didn’t go along with what they THOUGHT he had said “yes” to (when he actually just “didn’t respond”).
Speaking of “words not matching the actions,” the dude would say things and never follow through. Like, “we should do this,” or “we should do that….” Now, saying those things once in a blue moon is nothing, but when said a LOT, and no follow through…… When I walked out on him, the dude had the NERVE to say that “at some future date he wanted a conversation with me about what went wrong in the relationship.” Well, I knew D*** well that conversation was never going to happen, because of his constant “say things but don’t follow through” behavior.
And, I noticed a lot of “parroting.” If I said something, he would “me too” a LOT, or…. a week later he would say the same thing I had said as though he JUST THOUGHT OF IT! Basically saying what he thought I wanted to hear.
Also, a lot of Natalie’s posts mention A/C’s that cheat or have girlfriends/wives. Some of the guys we were with (Like Emily, and one other, I forgot, was it Regina????) were actually nice guys and weren’t cheaters…… but they are still A/C’s because they:
1. Have baggage they never dealt with
2. Have issues and way over-react to stuff
3. are incapable of emotional intimacy
4. A host of other things…… (probably mentioned on here)
So, just because they aren’t cheaters and are faithful doesn’t mean they aren’t A/C’s.
sooo true. This was my EUM experience to a tea. He was attentive, sweet, just when it came to emotions or how he felt about me – vague, high level, non-direct answers.He hoped it was enough to satisfy my questions.
My question: “Have you been in love lately?” or said playfully,
“When was the last time you were madly over the hills in love with a woman?”
The answer or vagueness could be very telling.
It’s important that you highlighted what he’s been vague about because it shows your grey area of communication in the relationship – you know that if it comes down to finding out how he feels about something or someone, it will be vague.
You’re absolutely right. I look back on some previous relationships and I realise that I hadn’t a clue what the hell they were talking about half the time. While some people are not very good communicators, what you’ll actually find is that often, they don’t *want* to be good communicators. And no – guys don’t always cheat – neither do women. But a faithful man isn’t always one to be held onto either. Cheating is just one facet and actually it’s the abuse of trust and boundaries, manipulation, lies, deceit, pressing the reset button, control etc that can be just as damaging. The mind games and them wanting to control things on their terms but not actually let you go until they’re done using you up.
My EUM actually said “Please don’t ask me questions, I don’t want to have to lie.” If that isn’t a major red flag, I’m not sure what it is. On our very FIRST meeting, he mentioned his wife passed away from cancer – but I later found out she divorced him. The past year has been one lie after another – with evidence to prove it. After confronting him, he was more upset with me confronting him rather than admitting he lied. But in my opinion, these men seem to land on their feet and find another woman to buy into their madness, while we are left picking up the pieces. He’s already onto a new girl…. but still telling me he wants to fix things. He even has belongings at my place…. I have tried to get him to come retrieve them but he never does. I would give them to his friend(s), but I never MET any of them. So how stupid was I in allowing this to happen? Very. Very desperate to believe this was a genuine relationship.
Ok, I DO have a question that I have asked before bvut for some reason the answer is fuzzy…
My bf of two years and me (both divorced with kids) have talked about moving in together – I do not want to do so until we at least have an engagement… mainly because of the message it send to my kids…
we talked and I let him know this a few months ago – he agreed (or at least that is how I recall it).. now, he says he does not remember saying he agreed and yes he wants us to move in together (my house mind yo, he’d be moving here so I do not uproot the kids, his kids are nearby but live mostly with their mom… plus financially, the house is upside down, we really do not have a choice yet)…
Anyhow, so the other day, I said, here are the steos we need to take and one of those steps was ‘our relationship status’ – he said, well, I think we are moving in that directions but lets get engaged at a later time… I said why what hold you back, are you just keeping options open while telling me you want to spend your life with me? he said No, not at all, I am just fearful, I was just divorced two years ago – I said fearful of what? He said I dont know… maybe we shoudl talk to someone..
I said look, I am in no way giving you an ultimatum – (I am not) – but if we are not sharing the same goals, then maybe we need to rethink our being together. He said I do not want to lose you, I said I refuse to bully you into a bigger commitment. I just need you to decide what you want because I am not going to live with you and not be engaged… I am a single mom and my kids look to me as an example… he agreed and understood.. but I doubt a ring is on his mind.
Do I end this and move on before I get too old to snag the next guy (speaking in half jest here) or so I just let things stay as is..
I like that he suggested talking to someone. One joint session with a therapist should get you all the answers you need. Go before you move in. After a session of getting answers and being totally open with a stranger then you may or may not want to get engaged.
Yes I also think it’s a good sign he suggested talking to someone, it is a good idea for him to get his fears out in the open. It is also good that you are sticking to your guns and you are not giving him an ultimatum to get him to propose. I agree with Raven, go for a session or a few and explore what his fears are, and then base your decision on whether you want to go forward with him.
Keep us posted dear.
I think it’s best that you talk to someone. A neutral party can mediate and get whatever issues exist (if any) on the table because sometimes when we have a one on one conversation, it becomes confused in emotion. You need to hear what he has to say. While I appreciate that you want to get engaged, he doesn’t. He has genuine fears and concerns that are at least real to him. If you want your relationship to progress and for you both to get a better mutual understanding of one anothers needs and fears, you need to listen without him feeling like there is a mega pressure around what he is saying. I understand that you have your own needs and concerns but you’re not hearing out his – both of you need to sit down so that neither one of you ends up communicating the wrong stuff and scaring the other one off. I would also hold your tongue on applying pressure as if you don’t understand what his fears are, you may be making them bigger – you both need to be able to communicate with each other and reassure that you can empathise also.
I met a guy online a few months ago. We talked via email for a couple weeks, then moved to phone calls and texts. We have dated for about 6 weeks now. Once a week as we are both seeing other people still. I asked him the first time we went out basically what he was looking for. He said he has been dating and trying to find “it” but so far hasn’t found “it.” So he decided he was just going to start dating, with no preconceived ideas, and see what happened. He said he gave up actively looking for a relationship. Since I had just put myself back out there after not dating for a few years, that sounded like what I was trying to do.
My question is at what point do I ask about a relationship? I don’t think I’m ready to shut down all other options yet, but if things keep progressing as they have been, I can see myself wanting to. How hooked do I get before I ask? And since we’ve talked about it once, how do I ask if his feelings around a relationship have changed?
You should be able to tell whether he has found “it” or whether he’s just practicing his relationship moves and social skills.
Does he call you, make dates, keep them, pay? Does he arrange events that are interesting to you? Does he dress up, show up, treat you like a queen? Is he courting you? Are these moves consistent? If the answer is yes, you’ll know.
My ex was like this but in the END just plain old not emotionally available so who knows?
Not saying that this is your guy but look for a mixture of actions and words that affirm he wants YOU and not just passing time (they get bored too ladies) with an available hot chick 😉
You ask for a relationship when you are ready to shut down your other options – right now, he is just an option. I would slow your roll, continue to enjoy the dating and if you genuinely like him, you need to knock the other ‘options’ on the head or have a discussion about being ‘exclusive’ so that you know where you stand. Make sure that you are both on the same page and that the questions in part 4 have been mostly answered when you make the decision. When you bring it up again, reframe the previous conversation, add in some info on how things have changed since then, say how you feel, and ask if he feels similar and wants to be exclusive.
Thanks SaraK. I just haven’t dated in forever and want to be sure! Yes, he texts me every morning and tells me Good Morning, he calls, he always pays for everything, he asks me out, he offers ideas and we chose together, he remembers everything I tell him and asks me follow up questions days later, etc. I think I am just new at this and don’t want to make a mistake by moving too fast – for either of us!
Being direct in a positive way is key to clarifying and establishing basics eg do you have a girlfriend?
Natalie, I also really like your explanation about how to read others – based on external or internal (your own baggage).
I really like the television series ‘Lie To Me’. If you haven’t watched it and like crime shows and have an interest in how to read people – I highly recommend it. I learn something new each time I watch it about reading people’s emotions and even about my own!!
.-= Cathy J´s last blog ..Dating Etiquette: Part 2 The Traditional Role of Women =-.
I’m so excited for tomorrow!
How do you find out about how his mother was treated by other men? I think a lot of men are walking around with misplaced hatred or contempt for their mothers because she allowed abuse or failed to set a good example and they are taking it out on the women they date. Is that relevant info? Of course it’s something to ask after seriously getting to know someone.
Hi NML,
I can’t wait for the upcoming post on questions. It’s something I’ve wanted to see in yor posts for a long time. The problem I had with my ex EUM was being able to process the things he said at the time and ask the appropriate question. It’s not that I didn’t want to ask questions, I just couldn’t get my head around what was just said at the time and I didn’t know how to express myself.
Questions I would like to know how to ask include:
Do you want a relationship? To me this is too ambiguous, as it leaves it open for someone to say yes, when they could mean yes but not with ‘you’ or maybe I want one in 10 years time. How do you ask the appropriate question to clarify if he wants this now. Also, why type of relationship? Relationships mean different things to different people.
What are you intentions with me? Or,
What it is that makes you want to be with me, why do you want to continue this relationship with me? He could answer because I have feeling for you. How do you get a direct answer?
What do you want from this relationship with me?
My ex EUM once said in my presence that he didn’t want to settle down. Later when I asked him about this he snapped at me and said he meant he didn’t want kids. I didn’t want them either so I left it at that, otherwise he would acuse me of pushing his buttons.
He said he considers himself to be an honest man. But that’s because he only tells you what he want you to know and NEVER gave the whole story. He he had a female ‘friend’ at his house and I asked him who it was. He told me he would tell me about her the next day. He didn’t invite me over to meet her and I never knew about this ‘friend’ over the 7 months I was with him. He considered that to not be lying because he told me on the phone that he had a ‘friend’ there. I went over there as I didn’t trust what he would tell me the following day so I wanted to find out for myself. I went to ring his doorbell and heard him moaning. I thought they were having sex, but found out she was massaging his head. This was at 11.45pm! I heard them talking about their sex lives, found out he still had sexual photos of her and she was clearly flirting with him, which he did not put a stop to. She left 10 minutes after I turned up, and he then turned it on me and said “Sweetie, you’re going to destroy this”. I asked is he was an ex girlfriend and he said no. I didn’t ask the right question. What he failed to tell me was that this ‘friend’ was a previous client and women he was involved with sexually.
He dumped me via email the next day to say that he couldn’t go out with a girl that didn’t trust him. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and stupid me got back with him the following week.
He mentioned having ‘friends’ but I never got to know who they were, and he never divulged their names. He considered himself to not have lied, but it’s lying by omission!!
From what I now know, he has had a string of women. A new one each year, and he’s already moved onto his 3rd in 2.5 years after me. It’s been awful knowing that I was just ‘played’.
I feel so sorry for them as they do not know what they are dealing with, or the history of all his others, and he is VERY careful of not reavealing too much about himself.
There are a number of other questions, so I hope there’s opportunity to ask more once Part 4 is released.
Waiting in anticipation,
Michelle
Ya know, reading this and imagining this guys perspective I can see how this could work for him. He defines a relationship as his needs, in the moment, I am betting mostly the sexual moments, with little attempt to understand much less do anything towards the give and take that is inherent in a mature relationship.The attitude that if one does not get caught its all good is about as childish as can be. I would label this guy a weaselly scoundrel.
But, I guess this is where it is so important to stand up for and express our needs, especially when we get involved at a deeper level than friendship. I’d say that as soon as a guy says something like he does not want to settle down its best to get him to very clearly define what he meant by that statement so you are very sure you understand what he means.
Asking for clarification will help you know what kind of person you are dealing with. He may be somewhat cavalier and admit that he uses this line to try to keep from getting involved/ hurt, or he may be telling you the simple truth that he wants to be a player. Neither of these is great but the latter is a sure fire way to hell if you hope to have a serious and pleasant relationship.
Don’t feel you are doing a single thing wrong by asking more questions until you get real answers. Occasional I am not sure’s might be ok, if there is a sincere attempt on his part to understand and address what you want and understand and express what he wants.
Hopefully good answers and related good actions will be there. Otherwise move on with the understanding that staying would be looking for the love you want in the wrong place.
I could have written this post almost word for word. Is this a pattern with this type of man or what? I still have moments where I think my EUM experience was all in my own head and couldn’t have been that bad, then I come to this site and realize it did happen, it wasn’t me and I need to remember that so it doesn’t happen again. Thank you to NML and everybody who shares their experiences so others can learn.
this website has been just about the one thing i needed to get real and look at my beliefs about people in general, this includes men. i have always been one that never ever asked question, i now know that i didnt because i have always known the answers, the funny thing about it was that i just could not take the idea of another person confirming the truth about them(the questions and anwers. The closer to the truth i became the more i ran and ran and did just about anything not to have a confirmation or acknowledge things for what they were, now the strangepart of it all is that, all that i feared, all that i was trying to not ask, all that i feared to know, was confirmed one way or the other. I was the other woman in my baby daddy’s life, well he fed me all the lies about how he did not want her, how she was crazy in saying they were still together, deep down in my heart i knew they were very much together. in fact i never asked him whether they were still together or not, only because i knew the answer would be a lie and i knew that if he lies it mean i would have to break up with him, which i couldnt take for some odd reason. anyway it got to a point where him and i discussed having a baby, i got pregnant and guess what. He let me know at 6 months down my pregnancy that he is with her, he doessnt want me or my baby and in fact he told me right infront of her that that “thing you was carrying was not mine”. i was afraid of the truth, but somehow when it did happen, when it came to him having to answer, he gave the answer i feared the most at the worst possible time, for some reason when i absorbed the truth and was forced to face that here i was going to be a single mom to a child whose father hated her before she was born, i took it, it was not as bad as i thought it would be, baby is now 2 and some how its okay, we are okay and the hush and true reality of what i was to him, and many othermen is not something that i discover now, it is all that i didnt want to ask because i was afraid that i was not the only one that knew the answer. i was in such a coma for such a long time,
Welcome back to being out of your coma, it’s like you have been reborn. Please celebrate the fact the you have come out and understand that you are growing and learning. You now have the gift of being in touch with your self awareness, and that is not something all people find. You are becoming a wiser and more authentic person.
Often we get in touch with this gift of ours by experiencing the worst of humanity; like great things can happen from the worst of experiences. There is so much good information all over this website that helps us compassionately learn about ourselves and the part we played by staying in difficult or abusive relationships.
You are also now a mom in a great position to teach your girl, by example, all that you are learning. Hugs to you and your daughter.
I think that it’s also a good sign when HE asks questions as well. I liked when my (then) bf asked me questions, because it showed me that he was interested in me and putting some thought into the relationship.
Even better when, some or a long time after, he still remembered what I had told him.
How do you find out how his mum was treated by his dad or men she dated while he was growing up? I think there are a lot of men walking around with misplaced anger for their mothers. I know this is a sensitive topic and only should be asked within a serious relationship or the beginnings of a serious relationship.
Having a casual conversation about family should open up a discussion. It is a sensitive issue but background and family is something that does and should come up in conversation if you’re dating or in the early stages of a relationship. However even if they have had negative experiences, what you’re really looking out for is signs that it may be affecting them now and this is in their actions and potentially in what they say. Talk about your own family – he’ll probably reciprocate.
Hi Natalie, how do you suggest dealing with a situation where you ask a direct question, get a clear answer then at a later date he says, ‘I don’t remember saying that’?
Well… in that situation, if you *know* he said and he’s denying it, then you are experiencing a major red flag situation – they can’t be trusted. He’s got a selective memory and he’s expecting you to doubt yourself and what you know he said. When you’re involved with someone like this, it’s best to repeat as close to verbatim what they said. Tell him that even if he doesn’t remember saying it, you do, so what does he have to say about it now. In future, if you choose to stick around, in conversations where important information is being discussed, repeat back what he says and ask him to confirm that it’s what he meant/said – he won’t like it but he won’t be so quick to deny again.
One of my first questions to him was, “Have you ever had an affair, during your past or current marriage?” He answered, “Yes. Multiple. During both.”
Also, watch closely how he interacts with animals, especially dogs. Animals don’t lie.
My A/C fortunately was an animal lover, and he had a pet. My cat liked him, and my cat does NOT like men.
I don’t place much stock in the whole animal thing. I’m sure some animals have like serial killers…
The answer in that first question speaks volumes….
Big answer ladies tonight about my assclown!
More validation from a close friend.
And yes, this goes completely with this article. My adorable, lovely, blow hot / cold assclown has admitted he is an assclown.
Basically he said
1. I don’t want to be alone so I told her what she wanted to hear. I thought maybe if I said those things, I’d follow through.
2. It turns out I want to do what I want to do and just want companionship…what I want (Basically, whatever meets his needs)
3. I’m not willing to fall in love and I’ll admit, I bent the truth because I wanted to stay comfortable in the relationship and I needed to pretend that’s what I wanted for her to stay with me. Whenever she asked me, I was honest, I told her I was terrified of love and haven’t been in love for years.
4. We are not right for each other. I just want companionship but not someone who needs me or needs me to follow through.
5. I will guard my heart and not let anyone in…it works for me.
LADIES – Don’t waste time with these guys. You won’t change them, they need years of therapy, drugs, something to deal with the narcissism, insecurities, and understanding what “love” is. Recognize the signs, they all have the “one time in band camp” story that makes you just want to hug them and love them……RUN RUN!
Instead, wait for the nice guy, who tells you your hips are beautiful, he loves your laugh, and even on your bad day without make-up, you are the most beautiful creature and he doesn’t want to live a day without being in your presence.
I’ll wait for that!
-Myrtle
Thriving and recovering at an astounding rate!
Has improved her assclownomometer and can see one approaching at lightning speed!
Recovery began 12/29/09
Too right, Myrtle!
We could’ve been dating the same guy… what you write is so familiar. My assclown also admitted these things but then when I retreated (more than once) he would say “Look, let’s just see where this goes”, “I just need to “clarify” some things in my life”, “we can’t just throw all this history away”, blah, blah, blah. I wasted YEARS with this AC/EUM narcissist dude and EVERYTIME I went back, just got less and less from him.
I too can now spot them a mile off and laugh inwardly when their weepy, “poor-me” words have no effect anymore. You finally realise that it’s always all about them.
Great post Myrtle, and you are handling NC so well. I’d like to add that its never too late to warn the youngsters about the one time in band campers and what is behind the pretense. The “poor me’ AC I knew, described so well by Myrtle, has a young adult son. This young man briefly helped my teen daughter with some schoolwork and in the first hour of being with my kid he actually told her that he was an a**hole, and ..that his parents had made him that way !
My kid later told me this as she was a bit perplexed why he would tell her this. And she ” felt bad” for him. It would have been great if she had said something along the lines of ” Oh thats too bad, but at least now you get to grow and figure out how not to be an asshole”
But it gave me a great lead into a conversation about men knowing about women’s tendency to soothe all hurts. And men defining themselves as incurable jerks and blaming others for it all. I am not sure this young man is even aware he was doing it, but I bet it is how he finds women who will collaborate with his poor me vision and then give him way more kindness than is due.
Poor me really means..the way i am is written in stone cause I do not want to do anything about it AND its not my fault. A poor me attitude is definitely a warning sign to stay away.
The only people who say crap like “Look, let’s just see where this goes” are the type of people who know that the relationship isn’t really going to go anywhere as they know their limitations and are fobbing you off.
AHA! You must have been seeing my A/C! Ok, just kidding.
Thanks for sharing this. If ever there was proof of the ridiculousness of these guys, this is it. Liar and a future faker. He is reactive – he says and does what he needs to, to get what he wants and reserves the right to change the goalposts later. He’s a big dreamer, but deep down, he knows his limitations.
Wow, another great post. I cannot tell you how empowering and supportive it is to read other women’s stories and experiences. I thought I was alone. I thought my experience was unique. Turns out, assclowns are a dime a dozen and here I had wasted all this time trying to figure mine out. My AC was the king of the vague, non-answer. When we first started, he talked about wanting to get married and have kids, he was a master at “future faking” and said all the right things. As time progressed, he “drip fed” that he had left other relationships badly, had even left the country to avoid having to deal with past women, all his past girlfriends hated him and many had hit him on on the way out. About the only honest thing he ever said to me, while break up, was that even if I had asked more questions, I “would never have gotten a straight answer”. I marvel at how these guys can know this about themselves and yet keep hurting women over and over again. My AC honestly believed that if he just met the “right” woman, all his crap, commitment phobia and assclown ways would just disappear. I nearly destroyed myself trying to prove I was that right woman, instead of just recognizing what a waste of time this guy was, loving and respecting myself and finding a decent man who is mature enough to know its not up to the woman to fix him.
I have no sisters and it feels like all my friends got married (and stayed married) to great guys. Before this site, I had no where to turn for this kind of information – I didn’t even know these types of guys existed, much less that there were so many and that they all behaved the same (unless, of course, it all turns out we’ve been involved with the same 10 guys and don’t know it!). Thank you all for this help and guidance. I wish I had learned this all 20 years ago.
Hey, I said I would be silent observer today as I was a little too comment-happy yesterday, but, I just wanted to assure you that yes, it is relieving reading Natalie’s advice and perusing the comments to realize how non-unique these situations are, and to find some v useful ways to understand and leave/avoid them. I assure you, you could be describing my man. I should have bailed when he started comparing himself to George Clooney, as the archetypal bachelor (not technically now, but that’s not the point) and kept reminding me how good-looking he was. I did say that it made me feel uncomfortable that he thought like that and that it wasn’t really something I wanted to indulge, but was too scared to push it (and, then, of course, when I gave him a genuine compliment he figured it had come from him being a manipulator and therefore saw it as me being weak). What a joke! Anyway, I know it’s very hard but try not to feel to ashamed or regretful. I am training my mind out of the same pitfalls. They’re useful emotions for a while, but they’re not pure emotions so they drag us in the wrong way. Wait for the emotions which really lift you up – and follow them. Like you, I had no idea that people like this existed in real life. I thought it was the stuff of bad TV – the ‘asshole guy’. So we weren’t to know…and now we do…And, in the process of healing, I am convinced that the lessons and insights outweigh the loss. But that has taken me some time.