This video was inspired by a lengthy conversation with a guy who tries to be very laid-back but ends up inadvertently communicating a lack of interest or passiveness. Likewise though, many women find themselves trying in vain to show how much they love a guy by sticking to his side like glue.
Unfortunately, these efforts go unappreciated because in knowing what he’s lacking and also the existence of little or no boundaries, he knows you mustn’t love or respect yourself enough if you’d love him without limits.
If your efforts are going unappreciated, unacknowledged, or you’re experiencing pain as a result, it’s safe to say that you need to ensure that what you’re intending to communicate is what you’re actually communicating.
Your thoughts?
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NML ~ Love it!! It’s amazing how much sense this makes after years of viewing your blog. Once it clicks into place, there’s no turning back. I have had dates that ended quickly because I could recognize AC tendencies but the bigger success has been that I realize I deserve to be treated well.
I like being pursued…I like consistency….I like trusting another (which means he has to be trustworthy). I realize no amount of pleading, ignoring bad behavior, or umpteen chances are ever going to turn an AC into someone that I need him to be! This time around it IS about me and what I want. I’m not trying to be someone else or a better version of myself….I’m just laying low, being myself and trying to establish whether the guy is good enough for me.
Loved the “electric fence” reference! It’s so true. You are brilliant NML and a blessing to many around the world!!
I want to make sure I’m understanding “boundaries” correctly. Let’s say that a guy I’m dating does something that…..isn’t illegal, but I just don’t like it. So, I say, “I don’t like it when you… [insert activity here].” Well, the guy will more than likely just keep doing it, but hide it from you. That’s the reason women don’t put their boundaries up, is because they are afraid the guys will keep on doing it, but hide it from them.
Well, you could just say, “I don’t like guys who do that activity so I’m breaking up with you.” That’s drastic, and you have to actually follow through with it or else the guy will “promise” not to do it, but in reality they will keep doing it, and hide it from you.
Am I understanding “boundaries” correctly?
yeah my ex / babydaddy would promise to quit and then do it deceptively
After a couple of times i should have realized this person and I were fundementally incompatible (dishonest as WELL as keeping on with the rare things that upset me)…and i should have ended it.
But i was young and naive. And then i was pregnant.
I’d say, let him know your boundary and don’t expect him to change, but give him a shot or two. If you catch him at it again, and then again….GET OUT.
“Well, you could just say, “I don’t like guys who do that activity so I’m breaking up with you.” That’s drastic, and you have to actually follow through with it or else the guy will “promise” not to do it, but in reality they will keep doing it, and hide it from you.”
Why is it drastic to have boundaries and break up? Why would you want to put up with something you don’t like? The idea that you actually have to follow through–gives me the impression that a person does not want to be alone and is willing to put up with various behaviors because of it.
Just random thoughts from me. I recently kicked someone to the curb because after a few months of dating and having told him a deal breaker was smoking. I kissed him and tasted it. When confronted he said “I didn’t lie, I don’t smoke, only when I am stressed or depressed” “If I had you to talk to it wouldn’t happen” I saw this is a red flag and walked away -no friend card. I realized after reading NMLs books that this was not acceptable. He did not take accountability for his actions in anyway. Besides for trying to put the responsibility back on me for his lack of control.
Sonja, good point….however, my quandary is…… let’s say the guy reveals something on Date Two that hits one of my boundaries. Well, two dates isn’t, to me, a “relationship.” So, technically, there is nothing to “break up.” So, I can’t threaten a “breakup.” I could just refuse further dates…….
Wow, when you said this:
“The idea that you actually have to follow through–gives me the impression that a person does not want to be alone and is willing to put up with various behaviors because of it.”
It struck a nerve in me. Wow.
And I applaud you for this:
“When confronted he said “I didn’t lie, I don’t smoke, only when I am stressed or depressed” “If I had you to talk to it wouldn’t happen” I saw this is a red flag and walked away -no friend card.”
Boy, I have been there, and now I know to walk from that.
Sonja, good point….however, my quandary is…… let’s say the guy reveals something on Date Two that hits one of my boundaries. Well, two dates isn’t, to me, a “relationship.” So, technically, there is nothing to “break up.” So, I can’t threaten a “breakup.” I could just refuse further dates…….
— Yes, that would be when you walk away. Even though (and I have been there) you have the illusion or ideas of what could be–reality is that you don’t like that–like your post below about the playboy channel
Wow, when you said this:
“The idea that you actually have to follow through–gives me the impression that a person does not want to be alone and is willing to put up with various behaviors because of it.”
It struck a nerve in me. Wow.
— I was thinking of myself and my past history–willing to put up with things, not even realizing it was because I didn’t want to be alone.
And I applaud you for this:
“When confronted he said “I didn’t lie, I don’t smoke, only when I am stressed or depressed” “If I had you to talk to it wouldn’t happen” I saw this is a red flag and walked away -no friend card.”
THANKS!! You have no idea how hard it was to go no contact because I really liked him over all. But I had to keep reminding myself if he wasn’t accountable now. What would happen later? “Oh technically I didn’t cheat or whatever….” The thing is he really didn’t think he lied to me. We had a circular conversation about it in fact.
Hi JJ2,
I don’t mean to butt in, but as someone who has recently (finally!) set up boundries for herself, I think I may have an idea that can help you —
For me, a real break-through came when I realized the boundries were not for HIM, they were for ME. I put the rules in place to protect and preserve ME, and they were not in any way attempt to get him to change his behavoir.
So let’s say for instance you decide one of your boundries is that you would never date someone who would say something insulting to your mother. If he insults your mother, he’s done. You don’t say, “please don’t insult my mother again.” You’ve pre-decided that someone who would do this does not meet your standards. Period. You don’t owe him an explanation.
Similarly, if you decide someone who would cancel plans with you at the last minute crosses one of your boundries, you cross him off as well. He doesn’t need an explanation, this is about you.
Whatever you decide the rules are, I believe if we have them firmly in place on Date #1, we won’t get drawn into a relationship with someone who does not share our values.
Just a thought.
Hope it helps!
Thanks again to NML and all here xo
OverIt, no such thing as “butting in” on this blog (I don’t think…..)! I like what you said. That is the kind of stuff I’m talking about.
I think I’m an extremist. When I don’t have a relationship, I love the freedom, I love being single, but when I have a relationship, I practically do anything not to lose it. That crap has to stop. Like Natalie says, I have to quit making “exceptions.” Trouble is, when you grew up with the “girls are nice and don’t make waves” thing, it’s hard to be direct about our boundaries.
hahaha!
Oh me too on the Nice Girl thing! “It’s nice to be nice.”
Right? What could possibly go wrong?
Nothing, until you meet someone who’s anything but.
This video was sooo good for me.
I was saying “I’m nice,” he was hearing “I’m stupid.”
Hang in there JJ2, we’re all learning together! xo
ABSOLUTELY NML, i didn’t see what i was communicating AT THE TIME but almost right away I realized it. He had already lost interest at this point. He goes for women “out of his league” which I am (and now thanks to you, I understand why i go for men who aren’t really worthy of me).. …HOWEVER, I was “laid back” mainly bcuz i hadn’t had the intention of getting emotionally involved (i know, i know, EU, I’m past it now, thanks again to you) BUT at first he thought this was great that i was so chill but quickly he decided (unconsciouly, in all likelihood) that I was NOT as HIGH QUALITY a woman as he had previously thought or else why would I be so relaxed about our dating status (or lack of one) about having sex without commitment or love (eu i know, relax lol) and not caring if he saw his ex regularly. Problem is, just as he was deciding i must not be so valuable due to what i was communicating, was the same time i changed my view of him and began to have FEELINGS.
So when he pulled a disappearing act and other EUM behaviour, blowing cold, YES i ENDED it cuz i am valuable and worthy of more respect than that, but I chased him for an apology or explanation or closure for some time.
When i finally gave myself closure and went full NC, he freaked.
I now notice him driving out of his way to go past my street again, just like he did when he was first interested but before we were dating.
I’ve communicated I am worthy and valuable AFTER ALL and i am betting he’s second guessing his earlier conclusion.
OH FREAKIN’ WELL< too bad, i'm waaaay over it and would never accept that sort of disrespect again and i know that's exactly what i'd get with him. plus, no way am i giving the time of day to someone who rejected me . HA!
ALSO, as far as boundaries go, oftentimes we "make an exception" with ppl…a friend, neighbour, crush, date. And we are thinking we are making an exception to the boundary THIS ONE TIME or these FEW times but the other person DOES NOT KNOW THAT. I keep this in mind now, as it's so true what you said, they will grow to assume that is your "norm" and you teach ppl how to treat you.
ANother great post (vid. post) love them all!
“ALSO, as far as boundaries go, oftentimes we “make an exception” with ppl…a friend, neighbour, crush, date. And we are thinking we are making an exception to the boundary THIS ONE TIME or these FEW times but the other person DOES NOT KNOW THAT. I keep this in mind now, as it’s so true what you said, they will grow to assume that is your “norm”…
Spot on! A popular men’s mantra is to ignore when a woman says “I’ve never done this before,” or “I never do this so soon after I meet a man,” in regards to rapid or “kinky” intimacy, thereby expressing her activity at the time is an EXCEPTION, but men routinely call bullshit on that and immediately assume it’s her norm.
We don’t get brownie points for acquiescing to shitty behavior, even if it’s done in the spirit of generosity/relaxing standards/trying something new, etc. All we get is labeled then used.
Col–
My experience exactly, but for the sex part. It doesn’t matter, though: we still both got labelled. Part of my labelling involved his telling his then-ex, now-wife that I was “easy” for being intimate with him (2nd base) on the third date. She then told a mutual friend. And every time those women are together I get ignored, even if my nearest and dearest are with me! Funny how the mutual friend is buddy-buddy with me when the now-wife isn’t around! When I am not around, I am sure that I am labelled the slut/whore/Easy Girl. Ironic. My reputation is exactly the OPPOSITE of that. Took one jerk to have others look at me differently! I guess the validation of marriage is what matters: though he and his wife DID have sex before marriage, and despite his having treated her like crap, too, the motto for their union became “kill them with kindness” (–but sex has to be part of the kindness given”, of course)–b/c he married her, out of respecting HER being so NICE! (She is not a mean person per se, but she, of all people, should not cast stones at glass houses, not to mention him!)
As they say, “marriage cures all ills”. She got married -> all of the past is erased. I didn’t (get married, to him) -> I was just used.
He came running when I walked. It was a big PUBLIC slap in the face to him. Very satisfying.
NML–
Saw the former jerk last night, at an outdoor festival. He always was in my line of sight, wherever I went, looking to see whether I was looking at him! At one point, I had to pass him by–he acted as though he didn’t know I was passing by–probably expecting me to say “hi” or strike up a conversation.
Why this behavior?
BTW, his wife was either not there at the festival or not ever next to him physically. Point is, he acted this way (ignoring me) even when she is NOT around.
Ok, when do you reveal said “Boundaries?” First date? Second date? Third date?
For instance. Let’s say that the guy reveals on….oh…. date TWO that he has the Playboy Channel on cable. Well, to me, two dates isn’t an “established” relationship. So, do I reveal at that point that I don’t appreciate guys who have the Playboy Channel? Two dates isn’t an “established” relationship. But, if I don’t reveal the boundary, he thinks it’s ok! See my quandary?
JJ2, By revealing your boundary right away after finding out something like that it also gives him the opportunity to decided if he wants to continue seeing you, he might not. It might just be the opposite for him, he likes looking at Playboy and doesn’t want to give it up. I don’t think there would be much common ground or compromise on that subject but at least you’d know where he stood and you stayed true to yourself and be able to walk away with hopefully no hard feelings.
Agreed. Reciting a “Boundary Manifesto” upfront is jarring. As each of your boundaries comes up organically, that is the opportunity to address and discuss (or opt to abort the mission) in real time. If you let the opportunity pass, bringing it up again becomes awkward and staged, making everyone more uncomfortable and defensive.
Maybe it’s not as much about setting that particular boundary with the guy “verbally” as it is you respecting / trusting your own boundary and deciding that the guy isn’t for you. Why does it have to be setting boundaries with someone and then two-stepping around all the exceptions because he said “this” and then did “that”? If the man is into Playboy and your boundary is that he doesn’t entertain it….then it’s really about what you decide is a “good” risk and not about his behaviour. If you put up with it then it’s not a boundary anymore…if he says he won’t look at porn and then does, it’s a boundary breaker and you will need to walk away.
We have to love ourselves enough to know that we will always take care of our own self-interest, because it’s no one elses job. Trust your decision about the boundaries you create and then honor them (faithfully) like you would a valuable friend.
ACFree, good thoughts. Thank you.
Where can I find the new video? The one on the left of the page doesn’t seem to relate to the new topic. Can anyone help?
Hi. You should it in this post above the text. If you can’t see the video, it may have something to do with your browser settings or refresh the page as if you can see the one in the sidebar, you should see the one in the post. Otherwise http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uua9buZUVWE
One more thing about boundaries: I don’t know the age range of people reading Natalie’s blog, but….. if you are in your early 20’s, you DON’T KNOW what your boundaries are. Or you may know that you have boundaries, but you don’t know ALL of your boundaries. This is due to lack of exposure/opportunities with guys that behave a certain way. For example, if you have never dated a guy who has a Playboy subscription, you may or may not know that you do or do not have a “boundary” there.
I didn’t know most of my boundaries until I was in my mid 30’s. Well, I’m mid 50’s now and still discovering a “boundary or two.”
This post was eye opening. I have lived much of my life without boundaries, and it wasn’t until about a year ago that I began to actively start putting them in place with everyone (family, friends, and romantic partners). It has been tough! I’ve lost many friends, have bumped heads with family members, and have had to cut short relationships with men (within the first couple weeks of dating) when normally I would have just suffered in silence with all these people in my life hoping that they’d want to treat me better.
My biggest challenge is knowing I’m actually following through on my boundaries once they’ve been set and not folding under external (or internal) pressure, and being able to interpret the message I’m sending to others with my actions.
I met a guy through a friend over my birthday weekend, and we hit it off well, hung out several nights in a row. It seemed we were both really into each other. As the weeks progressed he began to pull away. All our conversations were over text. In the past I wouldn’t have confronted the issue, but I decided to confront him. I told him exactly what I wanted (to get to know him better to see if there was anything there because it seemed we were mutually interested in each other) and that I don’t want our conversations to be over text because there is no way two people can get to know each other that way. He never responded to me. That was about a week ago, and I haven’t called to check in or try to run into him at parties of mutual friends. I’ve just stepped completely back and haven’t contacted him.
It feels weird because this hasn’t been my pattern throughout life, but I am glad that I’m wiser now and put taking care of myself first. It has saved me a lot of heartache with this new guy. Although I’m disappointed and hurt because I put myself out there and was rejected, I don’t feel like a loser because I decided not to chase (and I decided to stick with my boundaries). Guess I’ve broken the cycle of my relationship insanity? 🙂
Ahamoment, wow, you spoke of “boundaries” with family members. That is TOUGH! I am dealing with that now. The reason I have trouble with boundaries on men is because I never established “boundaries” with my family members because that was “taboo.” You aren’t “supposed to” have boundaries with family. So, I didn’t learn how to establish boundaries.
Also, Natalie, I apologize for multiple posts, but your “boundaries” thing has got my brain on overtime.
I want to say….. Not all “boundaries” are NEGATIVE, if I’m understanding “boundaries” correctly. Recently, I turned down a date with a guy that my friends thought, “but he’s a nice guy, why did you turn it down?” (I would also like to add that this guy was a MAJOR HOTTIE even for late 40’s!) Well, he was nice. But from my years of dating experience, the common thread is that there are certain traits in guys that I like, and this guy didn’t have that trait. Doesn’t mean he was bad, doesn’t mean he was an A/C, just didn’t have a certain trait I like. (But he was such a hottie! That was hard!)
Also, I decided at age 12 that I would never marry. I’ve had that “boundary” challenged a few times, and I’ve held to it. And let me tell you, breaking off with a guy who had done nothing wrong (other than want to get married) and was the best thing you ever had is way worse than breaking up with A/C’s. It’s hard to justify breaking up with a guy who had done nothing wrong.
And the “I don’t want to marry” thing, well, that has caused me some issues in dating, believe it or not. Natalie, if you ever do a post on women who don’t want to marry, I’m almost tempted to say, “can I contribute?”
Aha….I can totally relate but wow! you stayed true to yourself and that has got to make you feel great! By the way, I doubt you were rejected. I think a forward, honest woman can sometimes make men feel insecure (which means he wasn’t prepared to take on a woman that loves herself). Kudos to you. Big HUGS
Reading all these stories is so interesting. I also never wanted to get married, My mom completely gave up on life after my dad left her. That was such a lesson in my late teens. And since I was expected to go to college an enter the workforce, I realized early on that my life did not have to depend on a man.
I do not think of myself as EU, but I have never met a man who was such a great fit that I wanted to marry. him. I did stay with a man for thirty years, and they were not bad years at all.
I read somewhere once that some spinsters are really very choosy women, and I sure saw a bit of that in me. No one will work harder than me to get along and make things work, but I have never found the same level of desire – to work to compromise while retaining our individual identities – in a man. What I mean by retaining our identities is so important… I sure do not want a “whatever you say dear” kind of thing. I want a man who will work to understand me and himself, and still be able to hold his own as we struggle through the places where we do not agree or understand each other. These trouble areas often are related to our emotions, hence the emotional maturity has to be there.
“And let me tell you, breaking off with a guy who had done nothing wrong (other than want to get married) and was the best thing you ever had is way worse than breaking up with A/C’s. It’s hard to justify breaking up with a guy who had done nothing wrong.”
This is where I’m at, at the moment, without the marriage bit. My bf and I hit it off incredibly right from the start, both so into each other like we’d never been before about anyone and within weeks were talking about a future together, children, the works. But I find now (2 months on) that he’s actually incredibly emotionally unavailable – really introverted, only becomes ‘active’ or excited around his own friends, holds his cards so close to his chest you would barely know he even HAS emotions. He’ll rarely say something to me as simple as “You’re beautiful” or “I like being with you”. He’s just so removed and vacant sometimes, and then at other times, cute and fun and fine.
Aside from this, he’s gorgeous, smart, loving, affectionate, does every lovely thing for me, goes well out of his way when I need him, is totally respectful, committed to a relationship with me right away – just can’t open up verbally and let me into his mind and heart, and it seems to be something he doesn’t do with anyone, not even his family. When I bring it up he gets really frustrated and defensive, tells me he does communicate those things but just not in the way I want and turns it into something negative about himself (“It’s like I’m just not good enough”) and his mantra is “I just don’t know what you want me to say” or “I’m not saying that I can’t do it, but I’m not used to doing that, so I need time…”. I’m left with thinking, is the problem that he doesn’t open up verbally to me, or that I have such a lack of self love that I need to hear his approval? I have issues with thinking I’ll never find the right guy (I’m 31) and I’m sick of the dating game, so probably a bit of both.
When he’s so wonderful in every other way and I’m really crazy about him, this is a really hard one for me, because I know I can’t go much longer with his silence and withdrawal, even if it is just part of his personality and not him being an Assclown. But I know I need more connection and emotional intimacy, and he just can’t give it. That’s where my boundary is. *sigh*
Nat, I’m reading Mr Unavailable and the Fallback girl…I think I found you at the right time.
x
great post today! It’s nuggets of wealth that we tend to gloss over nd forget! I have loved your posts for years– please continue spreading the word!! 🙂
I totally understand the significance of boundaries. How do you inform some you are dating about them? Case in point. I am dating a man who I think has major drinking issues….this has taken time for me see. When we are together there is always alcohol present. It is affecting our sex life. He cannot reach orgasm. How do I address this? Do I tell him in person while on a date? Do I tell him when he asks me out? Do I share the story of my past with one alcohol addicted man to explain my position? Do I just disappear from this man’s life and avoid the confrontation? I do care for this man and enjoy so much about him so this is not easy…..but I know if he is addicted to alcohol he is not emotionally available. Bottom line….What is the emotionally healthy way to inform anyone about your deal breaking boundaries?
I believe in being treated as you would like to be treated. The most hurtful cold behaviors I have ever encountered are from people who walked away without full explanation.
Honesty is the best policy, but if delivering the news that you are leaving a relationship it is best done firmly, and unwaveringly. BUT with compassion.
I like to put myself in the other’s shoes…in this case for example there are many many people who feel that regular drinking is fine and seem to live thier lives fine with regular alcohol use.
While I personally would see that as a red flag, they do not. So to break it off for that reason It has to be done with the compassion that this person sees things differently from you. Of course, if they really do have a drinking problem they could take initiative to check out AAA and investigate their drinking, but as we see over and over…the person has to see a problem, and also want to do the hard work of change.
I am also big on counseling, but only when two people willingly enter it together to try to work through their differences.
Aphrogirl……………….
Thank you for your insight. Being gentle is important in treating emotional matters.
I have had a flash of reality in that having boundaries keep us on track to focus on a healthy relationship where we share common values. Most of the deal breakers on my list are things that keep the men in my life from being emotionally available. For someone who really like to drink, the priority is the next drink……for me it is to be in a healthy relationship. Bottom line…..the priorities are not ccmpatible.
Sex is easy……….relationships are hard.
From Anita: “I’m left with thinking, is the problem that he doesn’t open up verbally to me, or that I have such a lack of self love that I need to hear his approval? I have issues with thinking I’ll never find the right guy (I’m 31) and I’m sick of the dating game, so probably a bit of both.”
That’s what happened to me. I got to a point where I needed his approval. If you feel you need his approval, there is an “issue” in the relationship. The relationship isn’t “equal.” The issue needs addressed.
Anita: “When he’s so wonderful in every other way and I’m really crazy about him, this is a really hard one for me, because I know I can’t go much longer with his silence and withdrawal, even if it is just part of his personality and not him being an Assclown. But I know I need more connection and emotional intimacy, and he just can’t give it. That’s where my boundary is. *sigh*”
It may be part of his personality, but, as you said, you need the connection. Without the “connection,” you keep seeking “approval.” The “self-love” would be to walk away, but you know the deal, you are there. I was crazy about my guy, who also withdrew, but claimed he still loved me. I had to walk away. It’s been four months, I’m still dealing with the emotions.
Good poitns. I also think that before anyone walk away from an EUM that you have actually discussed marriage with, that you be sure you have done everything you can. Emotional availability is foreign to many men, and yet I think some can gain that intelligence with relative ease. In my experience this is best done by talking with a third party to see if the issues can be addressed and a compromise, one in which both people are content, can be reached.
That someone can be a wise church pastor, a good counselor, or a wise person you both respect. What matters is that both parties recognize there is something not working and both parties are willing to look at it ( with a sensitive third party) and work to try their best to resolve it.
I did this with the EUM and while he thought counseling a good idea he was not willing to follow through. Unfortunately, also being an AC he could not tell me that like an adult, he had to be a silly assclown about it, sigh.
But I walked away knowing I had done my very best to work to love and reach another human being that I had a strong connection with. Even though he hurt me, and I was so sad and hurt by his assclowny behavior, I knew it was him, not me. And I knew that because I did my very best.
All too often men and women in the same relationship are there for different reasons. My experience is that the men are having a Skin game, an ego trip, and are opertating on a totally superficial level. That is why they are EUMs! On the other hand, we women are in with our hearts and soulls hoping for romantic involvment. We have to take off the rose colored glasses off to see what is really happening. Soemtimes when we really leave a relationship by stating our bondaries and really moving on…..the man discoivers his heart and pursues. Reconciliation does occur but only when the woman is strong about her boundariies and the convictions of her heart.
In my earlier posts I have questioned how to do this in an effective manner that shows my strength in my boundaries.. I wrote an email to my current guy and told him that our relationship to alcohol is so different that it is best that we part ways since I don;t see either of us changing. In the past I would have stuck around and hoped for change. My email was full of appreciationn and genuine feelings for him but my resolve is strong to move on to find a man who can give me his heart and body without dependence on an ever present cocktaii. At first I was truly sad but know I am proud of the strength it takes to support my truth. I am happier being alone and making myself available to a healthy man. Stuffing down my feelings of frustration is much worse that moving on.
Also, do not feel old and hopeless at 31. I am 61 and the men in my life are all much younger. I have taken care of myself with exercise, diet, and attention to hair, clothes and make up. I have wonderful problems in that I am stiill in the love game and will NEVER give up on myself or love! People pick up on my energy and zest for living. I just have to handle who gets close to me better. I can make wise choices by carefully maintaining my boundaries. When you value yourself what you attract improves. Women with low self esteem are not getting great guys. I can’t believe how long it has taken me to learn this! But in the last 24 hours I have gained great inner strength in holding to my boundaries. I do not know what the futiure holds but I have faith that I can face it with integrity! Love is a great source of power,,,,when you really love and respect yourself….you can’t help but succeed in attracting more love! My tears have turned to smiles and I truly feel emitionally stronger than if I allowed the relationship continue as it had without my speaking up. If I never hear from him again…..OK…..I have spoken my truth from a strong heart and a body full of love that deserves the very best. I am gong to the gym this afternoon to keep it up. (He told me I had the body of someone 25…..find a chick who drinks who can offer that!)
In it for the skin game? I WISH!!!! My guy just quit wanting any sort of skin game, but claimed he still loved me. He wouldn’t go see a doctor as to why he didn’t want the skin game.
ValleyForge, I’m in my 50’s and have always dated younger guys, but this last one was the first time I dated an “older” guy. NO MORE OLDER DUDES FOR ME!
Sometimes you have to stop the drama of trying to figure them out and just say……………NEXT!!!!!!!!
something i thought about recently, i have been a voluntary victim for this one, has any of you guys fallen for a guy because he was so open and honest about who he is? the who he is, is the part where he tells you that he is married, that he drinks and does not remember anything he has done(this meant alcoholic) that he knows that he is a jerk, that is honest right? based on that, i have fallen for this guy who was honest about his jerk-ness. how crazy was that. here i was hearing things that should have made me to run like my hair was on fire, and guess what i did, i ended up dating him for that fact!!!(his honesty ). i guess to me at that time descent meant being comfortable with who you are and being honest and accept who you are. i missed the part where YES HE IS HONEST, BUT WHAT ACTS IS HE HONEST ABOUT, YES HE IS WHO HE IS, BUT WHAT AXACTLY IS THAT, THAT HE IS? Back to the issue, i was already on the way to trying to change my relationship with myself and my beliefs about people, love and trying to get on the whole loving me thing, at that time i had not made a big change but i was at a point where i was realising something nneeds to change, i met this guy,we went on a couple of dates, the last one, he got drunk, got rough and very rough . i went through a lot getting over the incident and i am over it now. i at the time belived that i had a boundary or boundaries, the i do not want lies boundary, he didnt lie, i found that very attractive. a man that will not lie to me and who will be soooo honest with me, some of the things we spoke about was his beliefs about women, now note that in south africa there is a lot of men that have traditional beliefs, which is what i was trying to get out of him, amoungst other things that this guy told me was that he doesnt think women that get raped really get raped, he said that in his heart he really thinks that they like it, i leant the hard way ot n the last date, i like when NML says but wonder if it all entirelyt hat way ” Unfortunately, these efforts go unappreciated because in knowing what he’s lacking and also the existence of little or no boundaries, he knows you mustn’t love or respect yourself enough if you’d love him without limits” i want to believe that along with that we might have limits and boundaries and they go unappreciated because their limits are none existant or very little. in that way, we get guys that dont can be loving, caring and honest with no boundaries, their lack of the boundaries mean they are alo open acts as well, its just that at the we are with them they are floating and rubbing us the right way, i am not sure if i am explaining it right,,,but my point is that when we communicate out boundaries, people can tow the line within our boundaries and this includes and a lot of times in my experience, it includes people that do not have boundaries, it is the lack of boundaries that keeps them in line, however it is the very same lack of boundaries that gets them to misbehave without even feeling it.my guy had the ability to be honest, he would not lie, he hated it, but the lack of a “descent way of living and limits” meant that he was also a serial rapist i believe. when we have boundaries and communicate them, lets see if he has boundaries or enough boundaries.
Mankie, wow, that was interesting and insightful. I’m wondering if you liked the honesty, and then were secretly wishing he would change for you (i.e., leave the wife….) and stop the drinking, etc? Who knows.
JJ2 I dont belive i wanted him to change in anyway or leave his wife, i knew who he was, he told me who he was, and he did not paint a perfect picture but i was atrracted to what i belived was a man that knew who he was and accepted who he was,(warts and all) i want to believe that at the time he represented everything i was moving towards and working towards, i was living a fake life, had a successfull career, men problems that i blamed on everything , dated in and out as if it was going out of fashion, had a prescription drug problem that i was hiding, infact people thought i was doing well and i had that image to play. I was emotionally unavailable, didnt know how to get out of it, I wanted to take good reflection of this woman i was, i was in a dark place, needed another person to say, i have been there”, done that”, you are okay “and the change you want is good. i wanted to be authentic about my situantion, that i really couldnt afford the life i portrayed, i felt very comfortable with him. all i knew was that i want an honest guy that will never make me feel crappy about who i have been,(seeing that i was enroute to the knew me). he was okay with me as i was and as i had been. with him i could finally feel like i could be honest about me . his lack of boundaries did not keep him away from a woman that lacked love,respect and care for herself in the past or present. i knew that changing and taking an honest look at myself was hard, i knew that the road was hard and maybe long so i used him as someone that will accept me if and when i fall. it really is like going to AA for alcohol problems and hanging with alcoholics, though they will not have an issue with new change you have made, they wont stop you if you decide or step a bit out of the line. So i guess i was scared of the road ahead. in order to change i had to accept and acjknowledge who i was, and i was scared that no one would ever want the person whom i REALLY was,there was a lot wrong about me at that time and i believed only a person that has a lot wrong with me will accept me. that is the truth i new. Infact even now guys/people don”t/ they frown if you ever mention that “i know and i have been there” which is what i was scared of, to them who i have been is a redflag, but that doesnt matter, i know and accept the person i was and embrace that woman i was because without her i would not have lived this life i am living now, which if far more at peace with me than people who havent even touched a drug, dated like a slu$%t. or what ever. that woman i was is someone that i will never be ashamed of, she had issues and that was that. when i looked deep within and found how badly i had abused myself and how i had treated myself so badly, i wept for that woman. with a dash of love for that Mankie, I began to slowly work towards the knew me,
It is nice to preach love, care, accept/respect yourself. I am sure my rapist has no qualms with loving himslf to the point where he has no issues with being proud of the jerk he is. on the other hand i think maybe he uses the fact that he is such a jerk and is honest about it to confirm and validate that his jerknes is acceptable, and women like the woman i was keep saying that it is okay to be a jerk. we admire his honesty, we okay the fact that he tells you his REDFLAGS honestly. so JJ2 the answer is that i wanted to change and knew i had, but just went about it the wrong way.
I think the honest ” I am a jerk” line works so well because of many women’s tendency to want to soothe. Honesty is great but when “I am a jerk” is combined with ” take me as I am”, along with them feeling like they are pretty special, you have the makings of a major assclown. In fact the one I knew actually verbalized that he was just a silly clown and also stated he was special.
To confuse matters, he also verbalized a vision of himself as a stable good guy and that was the side of him I chose to see and yes, like FN , chose to help and encourage. But the AC inside of him was always ready to jump in and make a mess, and the confusion between the clown and the good guy drove us both crazy, albeit in different ways.
The assclown in him was stronger, at least with me. When I tried to focus on the positive in him, I got the feeling he was hell bent on proving me wrong, and proving that he was not a good guy. It was really a circular repetitive mess.
In the end his lies were a deal breaker for me. So, yeah, honesty is important but only a part of the equation. Next time anyone is honest about EU traits or worse, that will be a deal breaker right away.
Really, though, this all comes down to something like what ValleyForge wrote…if you want to have a healthy relationship you need to know how to be and stay healthy on your own and you also need to choose a healthy partner who knows how to be and stay healthy on his own.
The tricky part is that sometimes it takes a bit for the unhealthiness to show. Thank goodness we learn from our mistakes.
@aphrogirl and mankie. That’s something I keep hearing loud and clear throughout this process, that many guys will show us straight up who they are and we just choose not to see it. They show or admit ‘jerk’ and we decide we need to drag the ‘nice’ out of them, instead of saying ‘Do I want to date a self-confessed jerk?’ Nuts, isn’t it. Then we have the cheek to turn around a year later when it’s over and accuse them of being a jerk, like it was new news and they say ‘duh!’. I’m starting to see that guys are usually a lot more straight with us than we are with them at first because we’re always trying to please them and be what we think they want! Ugh. We’re the ones not seeing things as they really are, we’re too busy attaching the what ifs and fairytales. No wonder we drive ourselves crazy and guys sometimes think we’re insane! I’m seeing that I am a little bit.
When my bf said on our first date ‘I’m really only comfortable around people I really know and trust and I’m just a big kid’ I thought ‘Aww, he’s a bit shy and cute’. Little did I know that meant that when I take him out to drinks with my friends, that he will sit in the corner playing with his iPhone and not talk to any of them, but when he’s with his mates he’s like Peter Pan hanging with The Lost Boys. But, he did tell me, straight up. He’s not right for me, I see that now, but can’t say I wasn’t told. He didn’t hide it.
In a way, I hate realising that I’ve been inventing all this stuff and in another way, thank god I see that now, I might pay more attention with the next one!