When you find that you’re persisting down the Other People’s Behaviour Is All About Me track and are getting stuck on blame, ask yourself, “Why do I want it to be about me?”
What are you getting out of making it all about you? Something about blame feels purposeful and may even be giving you a sense of importance that would be better felt through learning (or re-learning) to value and appreciate you, not from being a blame absorber.
If other people’s behaviour is about you, what is your own behaviour about? Who is your behaviour about?
I used to be an equal opportunity blame absorber. Any time something went wrong or I sensed that something might go wrong, I put me in the centre of it. I blamed me and what I discovered as I started being more honest with myself is that not only has blame got nothing to do with responsibility but it’s a wonderful distraction from having to be truly responsible for our own stuff and ultimately from taking action.
If you have a pesky habit of taking the blame for other people’s behaviour as if you’re a master puppeteer and so influential that one false move can give you a special version of a person’s character specially reserved for “worthless” and “provoking” people, in some way, even if you don’t realise that you’re doing it, you’re blaming somebody somewhere for your own actions. On a conscious level you may be going, “Me, me, me, it’s all about me” but subconsciously, you may have a number of beliefs based around this idea that if this, this and this hadn’t happened and this person and that person had or hadn’t done something, you wouldn’t be doing what you’re doing.
That’s what takes away your options because focusing on the blame doesn’t really leave you with anything to do. You can’t change anything with it other than your state of mind and your ability to move forward.
For instance, you might feel incredibly wounded by not being ‘chosen’ by somebody or being what you feel is ‘replaced’. Whoever they were with after you, you’ve made that about you, so you’ve blamed you for the fact that your relationship didn’t work out (that’s the equivalent of cutting them out of the photo and superimposing your face as if you had all of the power to make or break the relationship and they had zero contribution) and then seen their choice of next partner as being directly related to you.
Blame is in its own way, a means of feeling important but also a way of remaining connected to a person and situation.
Blame is in its own way, a means of feeling important but also a way of remaining connected to a person and situation. When you keep beating you over the head with blame and almost objecting to reality and trying to move forward, it’s in part because you’ve made out as if this person was the centre of the universe and that special when you were with them, in the sense of defining them as being all-powerful in the relationship. They were seen in some way as being a source of esteem and validation or certainly now that things haven’t worked out, you’re assuming that they must be an authority when they’re just a human being not a higher power.
In turn, because they’ve been glorified to an extent, this means that it can feel as if the sun has gone in and that you’ve been ‘downgraded’ because now that you’re taking the blame and making them out to be super-important, even if you didn’t see them this way before, it occurs to you that retrsopectively, they must have been more valuable than you.
In turn, this leaves you feeling “not good enough” and in its own twisted way, this narrative of blaming you for their behaviour and putting you at the centre of why they’re for instance, with somebody else, becomes a means of feeling purposeful and important.
If I can’t be important with you, I’ll make myself important out of being without you.
That’s why you may want this to be about you because if you stop making other people’s behaviour about you, you have to find something else to think and do. You have to take action.
It’s for this specific reason why as humans, even when we’ve gone through a myriad of emotions in our efforts to grieve the loss of a relationship, we can find ourselves circling back to blame when we’re faced with a choice between that or thoughts (and emotions) that are related to letting go and moving forward. Blame keeps us connected whereas if we proactively step away from it, we have to find another means of feeling valuable and that can be quite scary if the reality is, we’ve never really relied on ourselves and have always leaned towards external esteem.
I’ve experienced this many times in life and when I think back to a couple of years ago as I grieved the fallout with my father and his family, I realised that part of the pain was going from always having felt important due to my absence from them throughout my life and this idea of being “missed” to this new absence. As I grieved and went through the anger and in some ways blaming myself, I acknowledged that focusing on this idea that “it’s me” and that “everyone” was talking about me or ganging up or whatever, was a temporary way of feeling important.
Of course there are better ways to feel important and valued and it stopped being important to me or my ego for that matter. Sometimes we fall into the trap of seeing all attention, even crumbs or negative attention, as attention whether it’s from ourselves or others.
A gift that you can give you that costs nothing other than compassion and a little patience, is to unburden you from thought processes that don’t really make sense. It doesn’t make sense to hold onto blame. Unless you were 100% in control of the situation and you can do something positive about it (something that comes from a place of mutual love, care, trust, and respect), all that blame does is keep you stuck and feed an existing narrative that’s not serving you.
We want things to be about us because we want to matter but we already matter anyway and ultimately, there are better ways to make a difference in this world and to matter than making us the centre of other people’s behaviour while losing ourselves.
Your thoughts?
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The last sentence is so true.
The old saying says, “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.” I know when someone gets by with burning me twice, I handed them the matches and stood in a non drafty place for their convenience.Immediately after I get burned I may journal a few dozen pages where I blame the perp, but for once Natalie has written about a topic that isn’t a major issue for me. I think 10+ years of al anon taught me not to dwell on blaming others for things I allowed to happen. But still I hate to be blamed for stuff I didn’t do. While I’ve been on a dating hiatus I’ve used the time to open myself to making friends with all types of new people, including straight men. As a lesbian I’ve always liked men but I never had a straight guy as a best friend. Enter Larry, a guy who dated and later married my BF from high school. Facebook allowed us to reconnect after 40 years without contact. It’s been so much fun, like dating without the angst of emotional vulnerability. He even cooked and made an elaborate Thanksgiving dinner just for the two of us. He knows I’m queer as chicken’s teeth so there is no flirting or double entendre. He’s recently divorced and we both need confidantes, so it’s been nice. He recently had to be hospitalized for pancreatitis and I’ve called him daily to see how he’s doing and give him pep talks. Hospitals use so many machines that screw up cell phone reception, so it’s been really hard to understand him.
Sometimes I haven’t even heard him, just several moments of silence. As a result, he started saying I was interrupting him and saying he couldn’t get a word in edgewise. He was blaming me without factoring in the horrible cell phone reception. Last night he got so annoyed when I told him I didn’t hear him mention they let him eat solid food a few days ago, he hung up on me. I was gobsmacked! There has been no contact since, but if he gets that annoyed over trivial bullshit and hangs up on me, I see a huge red flag. If he thinks I am going to tolerate childish behavior from a platonic guy friend, he’s mistaken. I plan to discuss it with him once he’s out of the hospital. I am hoping the morphine he is on and 9 days in the hospital made him so grouchy. We shall see.
Thanks NML, I appreciate you going into depth on this topic. I’ve been talking to my therapist about it, and now I have found tools that help me combat the negative beliefs. Once you get past the initial fear of “what now that I don’t have the regret/blame/obsession to deal with?!” you actually feel a little freer and lighter. Their problems aren’t YOUR problems.
I have been crucifying myself for this and that, but he has some serious issues and was a part of the equation too. I shouldn’t be second guessing–I gave him so many chances, was patient, and when I finally reached the end of my rope, I ended it. That should make me proud, not embarrassed or sad! Him jumping into a new and intense relationship a week later while treating me like crap says a lot more about him than it does about me. I use my fixation/analysis of him and his new relationship as a way of being connected, but I’m slowly getting better. I am trying to constructively channel my sadness and anger. To expect him to be my friend or magically turn into this mature, honest, open, reliable person after the relationship (when he couldn’t be that when we were together!) makes zero sense. I guess the one thing I still have a hard time with is accepting when people aren’t who you think they are, and knowing when to cut your losses!
Hi PhoenixRises,
Can you let me know what kind of advice your therapist has been giving you on this?
You wrote: ‘I use my fixation/analysis of him and his new relationship as a way of being connected, but I’m slowly getting better.’
My situation isn’t exactly the same, but for a long, long time I was attached to my ex because of my fear of him cheating on me (he did, of course …) and then being with other women now that it’s over. My problem is we live very close to each other and I’m anxious about seeing him with other women, by chance, as I walk through my neighbourhood.
Strangely enough – or maybe not, it seems to be hallmark of abusive relationships – this fear of mine kept me with him, as if I could find a way of managing my – pretty realistic – fear/expectation, by staying with him.
I had a lot of nightmares about this, which have now stopped, but you sound quite settled about your ex being with another woman so quickly – I’m just wondering how you managed this.
Thanks for this 😉
Hi Magpie,
Truth be told, I am nowhere near okay yet. Logically I know all the right words and things to say, but I still struggle. In a tough moment, I stop what I’m doing, close my eyes, and breathe. I remind myself that emotions come and go, but I am still in control of how I respond to them. I know that it’s okay to feel everything, but it doesn’t mean I need to act on them or that they are rational. I also think through my options in terms of actions, and realize that acting immediately on a feeling of sadness, anger, or jealousy is unwise and will set back my progress. Journaling can help, so does music, talking to a trusted friend to vent, or working out the anger with exercise. When I get too far in my head, I say “stop!” and try to turn the focus back on myself. Is there a more productive thing I could be doing or thinking about? Usually there is!
I have nightmares too, and my anxiety is also because I live a block away. Both are in my program at uni so I see them often. From the outside, it looks like they have this perfect, serious, happy relationship. They are constantly together and seem to do a lot of things that him and I never did. I heard a quote that goes along the lines of “don’t compare someone’s highlights reel to your behind-the-scenes.” It’s easy to think they have it easy and are so happy, but honestly I have no idea. He has never acknowledged the relationship to me (despite me directly stating it and wishing him well!) but he’d have to acknowledge he treated me badly and didn’t honor anything he said. He isn’t suddenly a better guy because he has someone new…maybe he can’t stand to be alone, maybe it’s validating or helps him ignore his own flaws/failures, or maybe he’s trying to fix his problems by throwing himself into it. You could throw any girl in the equation (no matter how fantastic) and get a similar result, so I harbor no ill will towards her. I tried being friends with him but realized his immaturity, selfishness, emotional unavailability, and irresponsibility make it unhealthy. I feel sad because I am still in love with who I thought he was, and it feels awkward and bitchy to ignore him. Then again, he isn’t trying (despite him professing how he values me and our friendship) and I don’t owe him anything anymore. Trying to be friendly would say I am okay with how who he is and how he’s treated me…and I’m not!
Whatever you do, don’t let your fear get in the way of improving yourself, and freeing up your life for great things and great people 🙂
Thanks for your reply.
Your advice about being in the moment is very useful – my therapist recommended that I focus on your senses when I feel attacked by negative thoughts.
For example, focus on what you feel (I’m sitting on the chair, it’s cold or whatever), what you see – that kind of thing.
I also notice they follow a definite pattern – ie they are worse when I’m in bed about to go to sleep, so the fact that they are a kind of routine helps me realise they are something I’m ‘doing’ to myself.
I’m really sorry that you have to keep seeing them together: is there any way you can reduce that? And as NML always tells us; try to bring it back to yourself and your feelings, just acknowledge your feelings (I feel sad/angry when I see them together – just name your feelings).
You are spending time thinking about their relationship and this is a dead-end and not that important – what is important is you and your feelings.
I’m sorry you have to see them, though – that must be hard.
I wish I could avoid them (I try!) but there are inevitable run ins. It’s hard to see him hang with her and do the things we use to do…feels like a punch in the gut. I can’t help but feel replaced and wonder what’s so great about her that he was able to flip a switch (in a week!!) and get serious, all the while completely forgetting me. He actually tried to wave and say hi the other day, but I just stared. I actually have zero idea how he operates or what could possibly be in his head at this point. It’s crazymaking. Ever since I went NC (didn’t tell him, just stopped initiating things, including him, trying to be his friend, etc.) he has made zero attempts on his end. That’s what hurts the most: knowing that he doesn’t care, or care enough to put action behind his empty words. Or maybe he sees he was a jerk and figures the best thing is to stay away 🙁
Adding to the pain is several recent job rejections/setbacks, which was something that helped me keep my head above water and focus on something other than the pain and anxiety. Now that that’s gone, I feel a bit stuck. I am trying to just focus on work and keep busy, but I could use something to keep me going! I know things will get better, just in a bit of a tough place at the moment.
Hi again Phoenix,
You wrote: ‘I can’t help but feel replaced and wonder what’s so great about her that he was able to flip a switch (in a week!!) and get serious, all the while completely forgetting me.’
First off, it’s NOTHING to do with how she’s so ‘great’ so stop thinking that way, really – otherwise you’re just going to get worse. Stop punishing yourself.
There’s a big chance he was doing something with her before he ended it with you; not sure if that helps to think this way, but it might give you a kick in terms of seeing him how he really is.
Sounds like you might be still suffering, like Nat says above, to keep some kind of connection with him – partly because the shock of him being with someone new and so quickly. This is all his stuff, not yours (why would you want to take his problems on?)
The key thing is to remember that it is not about you, or your worth.
I don’t know how long you guys were together, or if you really loved him, or imagined a future with him, but these are the things to focus on (if you can) when moving on and working out the loss you feel now.
We’ve all been kicked in the face by men – all of us – the key thing is not to see it as any kind of judgment of you. It never is.
Just keep remembering the ways he let you down and disrespected you. And feel sorry for the other girl, her chances of the same empty ending are very high, she will hear those empty words of predation, too. Just went NC the first of October, and I ended it as well as you did, but even with a long distance relationship like mine it is hard after ten years. It took about 9 months to go NC. I do not have to see him or his step daughters who hate me. A harem of backstabbers who could never find anything nice to say to or about me, and he let them.
So, keep on with the NC and try an alkaline diet. Or Magnesium Chloride massage oil, it will help all your cells and nerves…
I think one key to staying sane during the transition out of what is supposed to be your closest confidential relationship (but never was) is to take care of your nutrition!
Thanks all! What has helped most the last few days is recognizing that whatever he says or does has nothing to do with me. He has his own problems and thankfully I am not responsible for that. I still miss talking to him or having him in my life, but there’s too many unhealthy things about him and our previous relationship 🙁
And I guess from a karma point of view, it’s tough when you feel like you are trying so hard to improve yourself, address your own issues, and move forward in a mature (and classy!) way but they seem to have it all. I know it’s not true that he’s a completely happy person, and that in the long run I will be the more available and healthier person (especially if he doesn’t work out his issues), but right now it hurts to see him with the new relationship and seemingly so happy without having done any of the work!
I can completely relate to this. I broke up with my ex-bf about 7 months ago and have been NC for about 4 months. We broke up for good reasons, the breakup wasn’t exactly amicable, but I was still hopeful that eventually we could be friends somehow. When we were “trying to be friends” he also seemed very happy, and living a full life while returning to his ex-gf (shortly after we broke up). I became devastated, since I was under my own illusions that we could maybe get back together. I find myself struggling with the end of our relationship, yet he appears to be doing very well. As much as I try to let go, I find it difficult.
You are so Damn good! So eloquent and simple. It makes sense to me and thru your words and outlook I have become so much closer to my inner self.
Thank you. You are on it!
Thank you for this. Your articles always seem to hit the nail right on the head at just the right time. I’m currently “seeing” a guy, if you can even call it “seeing” its more like we are texting penpals who hang out once in a blue moon.
I always look inward and assume my actions or inaction should be blamed and is the cause of the unavailable-ness of this “relationship”. I look for places or reasons to place blame except where it belongs with disinterest. He hasn’t texted me back in a few hours? “What did I say to provoke his hesitance?…maybe if I weren’t so forward or brought up this subject he would respond I immediately rationalize his behavior this way and blame myself. Enough is enough, I’m done and I’ve had it. Thanks for this article Nat, I will remember your words when he does text me back…may be time for me to go NC soon.
because if you stop making other people’s behaviour about you, you have to find something else to think and do.
Of course there are better ways to feel important
there are better ways to make a difference in this world
Lovely – well put.
Get out there, folks, and START DOING IT!
I am still learning to do this as know at times I am stuck on making it about me, keeping connected to a situation that I shoukdnt. I have no contact with my ex but still grieve the loss when I should feel liberated I ended it. And feel aggrieved he has moved on when I should feel sorry for new person.
Jackie, I feel sorry for my ex’s wife. But some people choose to be a doormat and tolerate a cheating, lying spouse– and if that’s the case, my ex and her wife are the perfect couple. Long may they live, if you call that living.
There a lot of ‘shoulds’ in there Jackie, do you think you are being a bit tough on yourself? All of your reactions sound pretty natural to me.
I ended my relationship with my bf of 6 yrs in June, we have both not been in contact since and im trying to move on even though i still miss him a bit.
he has managed to pick up some really good qualities from me which he is going to take in his next relationship, im gutted tho…..lol..
fast forward i have now met someone new, its made me forget the drama with Mr X and after 5 yrs of mr X Drama i am able to smile and feel alive again. its been 4 wks now since im dating my new beau.
one problem is, my new guy has a problem, he loves his drink after work, he is 10yrs younger than me. doesnt have kids, never married.hes got a job and home which he is serious about, complains about not having enough money, its because he drinks.. so we dont really go out…
we had our first argument on sunday after he went drinking with his mates, got drunk and called me declaring how much he loves me..bla bla..
I gave him a piece of my mind and hang up my fone. Monday he texted saying hes sorry and it will not happen again, misses me, wants to change bla bla…
Im now wondering if i should give him a chance or just leave it….
since this argument happened he has not had any drink, hes been texting me and calling me and feels sad about what happen/ i dont know if i should give him a chance to prove himself or if i should call it quits..
I do like him and looks like he likes me too, calls, texts, and help me with odd jobs at my house when hes got time off.
We live on a small tropical island and most guys here love their drink after work and most woman dont mind. Anyways i told him im not comfortable with it, i just need some advice please..thanks so much.
kadija
Kadija, drink is so darn boring, I’ve seen plenty of alcoholism in my family and it makes me angry, but I also see how difficult it can be to know where to draw the line when you have a drinking culture.
What matters is that it bothers you, and you can’t change him, so I think his drinking will eat away at your soul. I’d run if I were you.
‘He is 10yrs younger than me. doesnt have kids, never married.hes got a job and home which he is serious about, complains about not having enough money, its because he drinks.. so we dont really go out…’
Imagine if your best friend described her new, one-month relationship this way – there are a stack o issues there, just staring you in the face.
My ex also had a huge social life that excluded me 90 % of the time, and he always said it was just drinking with the guys. After a while you are going to get sick of this, as I did – and if you have a child, or another reason that will mean you can’t go out (I was excluded because he kept telling me it was only men, well, it wasn’t all the time) you’re going to get angry and resentful pretty fast.
See it as having different lifestyles – rather than judging him. I’m going to steer clear of a guy who goes out drinking with the guys and sees this as his number one hobby; not only is it pretty immature, it also necessarily excludes his girlfriend most of the time.
Thinking back I’m amazed I put up with this for so long: he used to go out till late and then sleep most of the next day at my place because he lived there with me and my son, fcken hell, what was I thinking?
Kadija, I’d be careful if I were you because if his drinking has become an issue only into one month into your relationship, I see a red flag all the way from Texas.
People with drinking or drug issues make promises to be good all the time. It makes no difference if “all the guys love their drink after work.” You aren’t dating all the guys, just him.
If this guy can’t afford to take you out on proper dates becauses he wastes all his discretionary income on drinking with the boys, then it looks to me like he’s dating booze and seeing you on the side.
A lot of people with drinking problems will apologize and promise never to let it happen again–but as Natalie has said, actions speak louder than words.
If it happens again, don’t feel the obligation to re-explain your position on it. He heard you–but hearing and listening are two different verbs. Watch his actions and make sure they match his promises. If they don’t, decide how many second chances you’re willing to give him. If he gets as far as his third or fourth second chance, that’s on you.
I hope that one incident taught him what he needs to know and that you and he continue to date joyfully. If not, evict him and create a vacancy for a
new love to park his car. 🙂
Hi
Thanks for all your replies..
We had a serious talk last night and he goes to me that he wants to prove himself to me, I’m just gonna wait and see, so far this week he hasn’t touched alcohol, he’s promised to plan stuff and save his cash so we can go out as a couple, I’m gonna give him a chance to see how things goes, so far I’m taking it easy as I’ve been burnt enough with guys making empty promises.
Fact is with him he knew me for over 2 yrs as we live in the same area, but at the time I was with Mr X, so we only said hi. Since me and. Mr X broke up in June, he started talking to me, until last month he ask me to meet him for a chat and he told me he liked me… Since then we have been meeting up 2 times a week… He sounds nice and caring.
Yesterday he told me that he doesn’t want to lose me and he will do anything to make me happy, he’s the type of person I can call anytime of night and it’s never a problem to talk, he will listen to my worries and will want to help me were he can..
I’m gonna give it 2 weeks to see how things goes, I’m open minded about what he’s saying and thinking positive that he truly wants to change, I’m gonna give it 2 weeks and see what happens. I’m positive after our long conversation last night.. Gonna keep posting of the outcome..
Thanks guys, much appreciated for all replies.
Have a great weekend all.
Kadija
Kadija, this sounds like an amber flag situation that you’re dealing with well, like you have your eyes open. You know it’s about actions and not words. Keep posting.
I had a bittersweet moment today. I might be on the path to dating someone I work with – the details are irrelevant for now. What matters is that I imagined telling my mentor, and feared that he’d disapprove and tell me he isn’t good enough for me – more a reflection that I know he thinks very highly of me, than there being any problem with the guy.
What’s bittersweet is that I’ve never had this experience before. No one in my family would ever say any man wasn’t good enough for me. Isn’t that screwed up? One brother just wants me married off and thinks it’s a major problem that i’m not settled down, he’s shown me many times that he thinks any old loser will do. Another brother seems to have so much contempt for me, it’s more like me trying to prove to him that I’m good enough for whatever guy in question. And dad, bless him, really wants me to be happy, but is just too passive to offer any opinion or judgement on anything I do.
I just can’t help feeling some bitterness about that and some grief for the loneliness and unworthiness it caused me for all my young adulthood. Why couldn’t they teach me I have value, isn’t that the most elementary thing to tell your kids, siblings etc.?
The way I saw things always made it about me, believing I was simply unloveable, uninteresting, unremarkable, and it’s like I was determined to find ways to give myself a good kicking. It didn’t occur to me that they were failing to make me feel loved. I would tell myself things like ‘my brothers grew up with me and know me better than anyone else, so their low opinion counts more than the friends i’ve made in more recent years’.
Well, let’s move from the bitter to the sweet. I have people in my life who care, not because they have to, or should, but because of who I am. I’ve created it for myself rather than just being given it. I’ll always have moments where I remember what I’ve lost, but what I’ve gained is truly wonderful. We can be who we are and want to be, no one else is allowed to define us.
Hi happy b,
I think it is important not to put siblings and parents in the same package and on the same level. I’m not sure siblings have to give you what they probably didn’t get themselves from the parents you have in common. It strikes me in particular that you are more indulgent with your father’s behaviour than your brothers’. Pay attention to this, it may be an important lead in better understanding your family’s dynamics.
Has your Dad ever told you that nobody deserves you when you were little? ‘Cause “you’re too good for anybody to have you” is slightly different than “he’s not good enough for you”.
Best wishes, V.
happy b, I would suggest – dont tell your mentor. Or think about why you want to tell them about someone you MIGHT be on the PATH to start dating. Its not advice you need, but validation. And the mentor might say something that makes you confused and sets you second-guessing. Other people’s responses are not perfect when we tell our stories, and we dont need to crowd source our behavior.
You CAN trust your own feelings and ideas and actions and thoughts. You KNOW what you need. Tell your mentor when you are REALLY dating, in a REAL relationship or when you are suffering a lot and need advice which you intend to actually take. [no point telling just to transfer your anxiety and fears to another person].
[we all know what we need. Its just taking responsibility for ourselves that sucks. Besides how many stories do you hear when families tell you ‘he’s no good’ and who really follows that advice?]
Happy B – You have to see your family as limited. They only want to see you married off, and they don’t care to whom, even though you will be spending your life with him. And I’d be just as angry as you are, because it’s hard enough to be dating out there, but having family that offers no support is worse. My family would actually tell me to go out with abusive men, and encourage me to continue the courtship (i.e. continue to be abused). I wised up and decided I no longer was going to rely on what they said, because they weren’t looking out for me, only for their interests. Hang in there. Rely on your judgment and gut and don’t settle. Sometimes family makes it worse for us.
Suki, you’re right, I’d only tell my mentor when I had to, not yet. I was always envious when I was growing up and friends complained to me about their protective parents. How funny to get to such a ripe age before having this to think about.
Thanks Kellia. When I rake over this stuff, I get to the point where I just say ‘I have a rubbish family’. Someone has to, since we know that not all people are good.
I got this totally wrong. I thought I’d met someone available and interested, but misread it. He’d told me about a party, after we’d been spending more time together, I thought that was a pretty good sign, but then he couldn’t be bothered going in the end.
I haven’t embarrassed myself (only to my friend, who has been great about it) and he hasn’t done anything wrong, it’s just disheartening. I try to comfort myself by remembering how epically difficult the job hunt was before I found a dream job, how many times I got my hopes up only to get bad news and feel gutted, even though I’m glad those attempts failed now. I would always have the dilemma of thinking if I don’t invest myself and expect the best, it will reduce my chances, but if I do, I’m setting up disappointment.
But when it comes to dating, investment is the problem. I over-invest and get too ahead of myself, I just can’t seem to learn. This was a big deal to me and I want to give myself time to feel the loss, but on the other hand, I have ‘got out there’ more than ever, so I feel a bit more optimistic that I can just keep going.
I started to play the ‘men only want me physically or as friends, but not for a relationship’ track, but got bored of it a few seconds in. It’s not true. I don’t feel rejected because fortunately I didn’t let on how I feel and I also don’t know his full story, but I am ashamed to myself. I’ve moved on enough not to settle for anything less than I want, and perhaps I’m getting warmer because this time I was interested in someone good and available, but still am pretty disappointed in myself.
happy b, I know what you’re saying, and I know how you feel, because it was exactly the same with me.
My eldest brother in particular denigrated me constantly, and I used to wonder why this mattered so much, until I realised I was always looking to him to take the place of my (completely emotionally absent) father.
I have one other brother who tried hard to protect me, even as a little boy, but he didn’t know how. There was quite a bit of violence in my family as we were growing up, partly because of my eldest brother’s drinking and drug problems.
I always used to say I’d like to marry someone like the second brother, but I was always more drawn to men like the eldest brother and my dad … It was like they were the ones whose love I had to ‘earn’, and I hadn’t done it yet.
Thankfully, like you, I now have people who really love me in my life, and I don’t need to go over this ground again. But yes, the pain can still come and punch you in the gut sometimes.
One of the things that used to hurt me the most was my eldest brother’s complete lack of interest in whether I ever settled down or not. He would openly say of my other sisters that he wanted them to find good men and get married and be happy, but I was always left out of this equation.
The poor man; he is a bit of a shit in many ways, but his own married-with-children life is pretty unhappy now, so I would rather forgive him and move on, and not allow him to hurt me any more. Again, it was about me not taking responsibility for his bad behaviour – his lack of love, his anger, his drinking and drug use, and his bullying.
“My eldest brother in particular denigrated me constantly, and I used to wonder why this mattered so much, until I realised I was always looking to him to take the place of my (completely emotionally absent) father.”
Ethelreda, exactly this. To me, he became the man I would try to ‘right the wrongs of the past’ with, and with any new love interest, he would be the person I’d want to bring them to and prove that I can be loved. In the way he shows me how loving and caring he is towards his wife, kids, friends, mother in law, wife’s friend’s cousin’s daughter’s class mate etc. but not me (deliberately, to justify to himself treating me so badly), it was hard not to think it was all about me and my failure. It is great progress that I’ve reached a place of not caring one bit what he thinks and realising it’s not about ‘who’ I am, but ‘what’ I am.
I have to recognise it is really our dad’s failure and learned helplessness that is behind it all and created an extreme need for love and support in me, and a very unnatural pressure for my brother that he responded badly to.
The pain does come back but always with the knowledge that we see it for what it is now instead of all the questioning and self blaming.
Happyb
Kellia gives good advice; men often just want their female sibs/daughters married or paired off. Men also are pretty lousy at judging the worth of other men.
Noquay, I suspect what you say is true, but we never see such indifference in films, fiction, tv etc. More common to see protective dads. Marriage can be oppressive beyond imagination, how can someone love their daughter/sibling but want that for them? Do they just not realise what misery and happiness look like?
That’s interesting what you say about men judging other men. Examples flood to my mind of men who I highly respect and admire and who have integrity, yet I’ve thought about them at some time, ‘who’s this man they’re hanging out with/doing projects with? can’t they see what a phoney he is?’ It’s happened a lot.
b
Men really cannot see the women’s perspective at all. My own dad fixed me up with a younger bar buddy when I was pretty young, then didn’t understand why I was so pissed when the drunken dude tried to rape me. He didn’t understand that a totally uneducated redneck type whose family literally lived in a dirt-floored house was not a fit for his brainy daughter. He didn’t get that I was probably better suited for something other than an uneducated housewife, which is what he thinks all women oyghta be. And he never understood how hard it was for me to work, go to school, and raise my brother, his son. In his world, women raised kids and its no problem for them. These dudes think very linearly, often with a rigid set of expectations/values and simply cannot think beyond that. In men’s world, there’s also no negative stigma often when a guy is really phoney, lacks integrity, treats women badly. They only are chastised when they do wrong by their bros.
Noquay, that sounds terrible. When I was 18, my brother set me up for dinner with a guy who was in his 30s and had nothing to offer in terms of wit, intelligence, interest, attractiveness, prospects, nothing. Ok maybe or maybe not he had good core values, but c’mon.. He’d been told it was a date, while I hadn’t. Pretty minor compared to your experience, but the reason I’m telling you is because I’ve found it very hard to forgive, it deeply offended me. I don’t think I ever saw this brother in the same light again after this, even though I gave him a piece of my mind and he apologised, and it’s such a long time ago. So I feel sympathetic that you went through this with your dad.
And I see it, some of the guys who are phoney with women are great with other guys and have a code of integrity with them. I often come across men who are so right on and engaged in the community and talk the talk when it comes to women and gender, but have a deep seated chauvinism, while there are also those gems who have a genuine respect and understanding. I don’t think the subtle (but still awful) kind of male chauvinism is detectable unless you’re on the receiving end.
Very true, now that I think of it. Many of the red flag men of my acquaintance probably present as having a lot of integrity to men. It is in how they act toward CX
women that’s the problem. I too was offended when my dad fixed me up with this dude; my only interest in him was learning about farming. The attempted drunken rape was written off as something that just happens. I am also somewhat offended with the “take whomever will have you” attitude of many of my peers. They probably mean well but really, no one should be expected to accept anyone with drug/alcohol/mental health issues that is barely supporting themselves, unless of course BR is in dire need of readership which doesn’t seem to be the case.
I am also somewhat offended with the “take whomever will have you” attitude of many of my peers. They probably mean well but really, no one should be expected to accept anyone with drug/alcohol/mental health issues that is barely supporting themselves, unless of course BR is in dire need of readership which doesn’t seem to be the case.
Oh man. That reminds me of back in the days of my experimentation with dating women (it didn’t last, but hey, at least I tried!) I’ve probably told this story before, but it still cracks me up, and also taught me a valuable lesson.
I was single and looking, and a friend at work offered to fix me up with another lady who was recently single. ‘She’s just broken up with her long-term partner’, she said. ‘Also, she’s got some pretty big drinking and drug issues, and some mental health problems too. But I’m sure you and she would really hit it off.’
I’m afraid I started to laugh, and said, ‘Judy, I’m sorry, thank you anyway, but I don’t have enough room at my house for all that baggage, let alone in my life …’
Long story short: lady got back together with long-term partner anyway (they had a break-up, make-up cycle of very long duration), and I stayed single and kept looking, but never finding. Perhaps I was too picky for the gay scene, which in that rather small Town Without Pity did seem to be based on ‘Take what you can get; anything rather than being single and lonely’.
But later on when I went back to dating men, I used to think of this episode and ask myself, ‘If that lady had been a man, would Judy have even thought for one second of fixing me up with him? A rebound guy with drink, drug and mental health issues?’
V, very insightful and very good point, Nat pointed out just the same to me once. No my dad never said either (I’m too good/he’s not good enough), no value judgement at all, I see him as emotionally stunted. I guess I get hurt by siblings even though they don’t have a duty of care, because I see them as ‘capable’ of support, but you’re certainly not the first person to say I’m too forgiving of my Dad, and his extreme vulnerability (and alcoholism) is a cop-out.
Gosh I really didn’t want to get into this! I like to think how much I’ve moved out of these family dynamics, but really I feel the pain of it every day.
Thanks V, you’re spot on.
Oh I’m sorry I didn’t mean it as a reminder of not having moved out enough, and I certainly don’t think it is so.
About your brothers… it may be that you already know that you are more capable than them but don’t want to admit it. When it happens to me, it is because I don’t want to accept that I am all alone in taking care of myself… as always.
Best, V.
V, nothing to apologise for! It just has to be raked over sometimes.
This post is really, really, timely. I suppose it’s the upcoming holidays, which I look about as forward to as a case of diarrhea. Really have been doing a lot of self analysis which is good because the absolute hardest person on myself is myself. That, and I really have been put into a position to defend why I am refusing to partake in the work and community related holiday festivities. It’s hard to get people to understand why I will no longer attend anything that makes me feel relegated to the singles table, feel left out, alone in a crowd, and where there is zero chance of meeting new people and a very high chance of meeting AC and Latest Conquest. I refuse to step into the social traffic lane and get run over yet again or to stick your hand into the flames just to see whether you get burned again. When I am feeling very lonely, I do really hate on myself: I am ugly, un-dateable, unwanted, destined to be alone for good or stuck with down and outers. Then I need to think: all women here experience the same issues, most older educated women here have left, and left for a reason, the ratio of single,older, high functioning, self supporting women regionally to men in the same situation is huge. When someone acts “available” and is not, when someone wants to date yet is not in a place to be in a relationship, when someone is not honest about their financial situation, their health, their future, that is on them, not me. I also need to understand while I am doing everything to change my situation, applying for jobs, figuring out “retirement right now” options, fixing up my home to sell for more, paying off dad-related funeral expenses, debts, taxes, that finding a good, equitable, not loose my shirt way out is gonna take time and maybe a lot of time. I also need to understand that I can no longer go along with the “status quo” in my workplace, that I am going to have to stick my neck out, speak my mind, get downright radical in order to effect some changes in our organization. Was inspired by reading Wangari Maathai and the Greenbelt Movement this week. Some of us in the developed world need to also see that we can be oppressed, marginalized, dis-empowered and we need to enact change, take care of ourselves, become self sufficient, heal our environment. Though, yep, I made a few mistakes, I am no more to blame for being cheated on, disrespected, than the average Kenyan is responsible for being colonized. This is often difficult as I am used to pushing myself, setting uber high standards to achieve in life. Pushing oneself hard to do well with your education; studying, forcing oneself to learn no matter how tired, trying to be the very top of the class etc. does not translate well into the outer world where there are so many other factors at work. Rather than hate myself for people and situations beyond my control, I will be doing much writing, home upgrades, training, while other folk deal with the holidays.
Noquay, I’m surprised how much of a hard time you give yourself. You have limited agency in this moment, you have lost your father, you have to live day to day while you get through this and so important to be your own best friend. If it helps, when I’ve started to tell myself how useless, hopeless, ugly etc. I am, I’ve imagined what I’d say to my 6 year old nephew if things weren’t going well for him, and I realise it would be straight abuse if I spoke to him like I was speaking to myself. Just think of someone you really love and how you’d speak to them, then you’ll learn to love yourself better.
Christmas is a terrible, weird time for me. I made a vow to myself today that if I ever find myself ‘sorted’ for the holidays, with a loving, functional family, I never want to lose touch with how lonely it can be or to lose solidarity with others who struggle. I think the answer is it will always have to be very low-key and just something other people do. You really shouldn’t be defending yourself against xmas fundamentalism, just do whatever works for you.
You’re right b; I hit myself hard because I am the only thing I can change. So much of the rest, for now, is beyond my control. I also get angry, as I kinda did last night when I was out with the “girls”, when it is thought I should accept any man that’ll have me, regardless of whether I am attracted to him and our values and lives mesh. I hear the message “this is all we think you’re worth”. I respond to such comments by pushing harder to do more, be more, be prettier, thinner, fitter etc. Then I think about how my harshest critic has two failed marriages to her name, the other has a bf who is barely employed and is using her, and the other two are a lesbian couple who have limited experience with bf material. I am again thinking that I may wind up opting completely out of society rather than compromise by values or accept old-maid-dom. I did give two Solstice gifts, a donation for scholarships for needy students and a huge gift to a student about to give birth who is impoverished. Will spend other peoples holidays out in the backcountry or working on my house.
happy b, great advice. When I have negative talk and thoughts to myself, I will start thinking, “Would I say the same to my daughter who is going through a rough patch?” Of course not. I hug and hold her and give her all the warm and positive support and believe in her and helping her believe in herself. Great advice.
Christmas is a man-made holiday that makes humans obliged to perform certain rituals such as decorating trees, running shopathons (especially here in the US), and being under the pressure to do all the things we are “supposed” to do.
If we stop and think what Christmas really means, and really think the meaning of the day and the history behind it, all our worries of our “loneliness” will go away. I used to dread holidays too. No more.
Noquay, I imagine going back to the place I was in before, and it’s a horrible thought. Whenever I do go back, my heart sinks and I become that sad, powerless person again. It’s the place where my heart was broken repeatedly for years, where I was at my worst, where the people I spent time with respected me as little as I respected myself. I had created that life through compromising my entire self for an AC, but I didn’t deserve it. So I don’t think you can put the expectations on yourself to achieve more than coping strategies for now and to slowly but surely build up your future, keep moving, it won’t be like this forever. I’m not trying to sound grim, the opposite, that this is not you, it’s the situation, so you can go easier on yourself. Be healthy and fit but without the chastising, again imagine what you’d say to a kid you love, how you want them to eat healthy and exercise but won’t deprive them of comfort food and idle time too if they need it.
Sofia, it does work really well for me and hope it does for you. Even if I do something very silly and embarrassing, I imagine how I’d get momentarily angry, and tell my nephew he shouldn’t have done that and must learn from it, but this would be brief and there would still be a lot of comforting and compassion in there. I hear what you say about Christmas and will try to find peace.
Happy b
Yeah, you’re right. I am just super frustrated that things cannot happen sooner, that despite all my efforts to make things better, in the workplace and in real life; things seem to be a major s@#$show. I see my life draining away. Funny, a student told me a few days ago that I am her hero, a sort of Indian Erin Brockovitch. I don’t feel heroic so much as having failed in many ways. Also, next month will be my 8th year here; I have learned a lot (the hard way), accomplished some of what I wanted to, dealt with a lot of sadness, yet also avoided a good many problems. Am sitting before a fire make of wood I gathered/cut myself, looking out at buildings I built myself, walls I’ve recently painted, a kitchen sink area I built last summer. Skipped the company xmas party yesterday though I did my part in setting up. Despite pressure to attend, I made it clear I will no longer attend any event that makes me feel left out, marginalized, sad, alone. There’s a snowstorm right now meaning the Creator, not stupid schedules and routines, dictate my day, what I can do. Thinking about it, Sofia is right; as a non family/loved one, non Christian, non Capitalist, I really have no right to partake in any aspect of the holidays except Solstice which is our new year. The whole shebang is someone else’s ceremony and culture and I have no more right to it that all of you with BR would have to baege in on a sweat lodge or shaker tent ceremony.
Noquay, you are going through a tough time right now, but it sounds like the fire of change is burning through you. It’s hugely painful, but it really does lead to rebirth and a new you on the other side of the flames.
You are becoming a stronger and better woman for all this, and you WILL be able to hold your head up and stop caring about these ACs. That day is coming, sooner than you think!
I once didn’t do Christmas at all, for much the same reasons as you. I had HAD ENOUGH. Another year, because of circumstances, I spent Christmas Day alone, and I actually liked it. I dreaded the buildup, but when it came, I got through it with flying colours. This got me over a huge hump in my life.
Ethelreda
Yep, I pretty much wrote off the holidays most years when my marriage broke up. I do a lot for charity at this time, always have, and haven’t done the consumer thing for decades. I think it is simply not possible to be totally alone here and happy about it. Community is too limited. I feel ashamed of saying that as a lot of what I do is related to lifting up the aforementioned community. I also have a warped sense of how, since I am basically a decent person, things should get better. Wrong. Things are as they are because the folks you loved were involved with others and chose to hide this. Since I now am limited to LDRs, this will be a constant problem so long as I am here. Simply because those that chose to cheat are my male counterpart, they will always have many options whereas the same socioeconomic level of women are fighting over very few men. A math problem gone bad. I do wish this time of my life were over but it’s not going to be soon. In the meantime, I do push myself hard, very hard.
So tough not to blame yourself – that is what I find the hardest – I can find every reason and reasonable excuse under the sun for someone else but – no leeway for me!
Carefully trying to piece together what they are responsible for and what I am responsible for is really difficult. And I find it affects my not being assertive when I need to be because I am busy blaming myself fully and feeling guilty for setting the situation up in the first place. If only I turned to the right side he wouldn’t have hit me on the left thinking. Got to learn to let go of always feeling guilty for yet again not getting the behaviour I really deserve to feel.
I have just complained after going on a course and it becoming obvious I was not going to get what was promised for the fees I paid.
I was made to jump through hoops by the staff – who claimed there was a safeguarding issue that needed to be addressed – ie the tutor is drinking heavily each day I’ve been in. The college ‘support’ to me, basically said the private conversation between the counseller and myself had been told to them and they were going to investigate the situation anyway – it would be obvious who had said what from the description I gave to the counseller I confided in – so with or without my complaint the tutor would know I had a problem with him and told people – but I would get my course fees back if I made an official complaint – and it was upheld. I felt bullied into a complaint by them.
I blame myself entirely for not feeling the large red flag slapping me in the face BEFORE I went on the course and so feel totally guilty at complaining for something I essentially hold myself to account but felt also bad at myself for doing nothing, walking away and losing my hard saved money for nothing in return.
So I have made a complaint and am racked with fear it will blow up in my face – because I defended for once what I consider to be mine because I didn’t get what I paid for. I have been on an orgie of avoidance for such a long while and been losing so many resources and things of mine – – but because its material things I’m fighting for and someone could get into trouble with their job – I feel bad – I feel like I should be prepared to loose it for the price of keeping quiet and supporting this wretched person and his friends from being found out. Does this sound logical to anyone else?
I have value – are the hardest words to learn.
Oona, you did the right thing. If you paid for something, and its faulty, you get to complain. If the people are being unprofessional, then tell them this is not how complaints should be addressed. Write a letter to someone at the top. You do have value. Your money has value too. If your instructor is drunk, make these so-and-so’s feel scared of YOU, not the other way around. ALSO, if anything were to ‘blow up in your face’ you can deal with it. You’ve dealt with lots of hard situations. You’re an adult, they’re adults. They were contractually obligated to provide some services and they didn’t. You deserve a refund.
Yep suki – its a new learning for me – have written letter but don’t hold out much hope – apparently I need physical evidence – – it would be good if we could get refunds on all relationships that have not delivered the goods.
Physical evidence or a witness…
Oona, I had an interesting conversation with a male friend yesterday which made me think of your comment – he said that he once pursued a claim with a company for a year and a half (!) eventually getting a substantial sum back and interestingly he acknowledges that he didn’t really deserve that full amount. Men are often not afraid of consequences so he doesnt think much of making himself a complete irritant to this company … Thats something to consider – how would you behave if you werent afraid, and if you didn’t care whether they thought you were an irritant etc. Depends on how much you feel you deserve that money back, how much that money was etc. But also just a thought that some companies dont respond unless they feel that you are persistent enough.
Wow Oona, here that tutor would be fired post haste.
Magpie,
I couldn’t relate more. My ex always needed “guys night” once a week in his mid 30s and it caused so many issues in our relationship. Men I dated in college weren’t this immature. And like your situation, I would see pics and hear of other women being with his friends with their friends. I realized at the end of the day he didn’t want to grow the hell up or lose me- wanted the single bachelor lifestyle with me there for when he is “ready”. I got so fed up I left him 3 months ago and he hasn’t let go by making attempts to contact and showing up to my place with an unanswered door. I like you don’t know how I dealt this this immature crap. I can’t tell you one thing; will never ever happen again with anybody. I think it takes times like these to question our acceptance of such actions. At the end of the day I was never first, his bache lot party boy lifestyle was.
Thanks Eyes for your reply.
What do you think was behind it for your ex? I came to think that it wasn’t just immaturity but as a pretty clear message to me that his needs came first – even if, or maybe especially if it hurt me.
He would say something like, ‘I can’t be with you 24 hours a day’ or make a big deal of spending the whole day with me and now I need to be with my friends.
It kept me permanently dissatisfied and I felt so rejected and excluded this became my dominant feeling in the relationship (even if he was just being a selish ass).
For him it was him showing me about how his needs came first and I needed to accept it. Added to this was a very macho and sexist ego-trip for him; him going out with the boys – and ‘girls’ in bars – and him having wifey at home, worrying about when he was going to come home. Mega-vomit.
PS I can’t believe that my generosity was exploited like this as it the start I was a really cool girl, sure you can go out with your friends, no stress, I understand etc etc
Correction to above “I can tell you” and “bachelor party boy”
I broke No Contact today.
I think it was a result of a stressful (but good) event, him showing up elsewhere and being super sweet as well as me not doing enough for myself and somewhat ‘growing’ the seeds of dissatisfaction and guilt (a trigger point anyway).
Anyway, he replied with a crumbly ‘I’m good, how are you’ and that was it, no further continuation of the conversation.
I am ok, but playing the blame game, like rolling the dice and seeing which scenario in my imagination is his fault or mine.
One thing I did remember was that feelings follow actions and by contacting him now I have feelings. I should have done an action that would create better feelings… not this.
Just start again, NicW.
No one died. Did they?
Learn your lesson, and hold tight till this little flurry of feelings disappears, which it soon will.
And then after two more weeks of NC, buy yourself a HUGE CHRISTMAS PRESENT.
I seem to get properly stuck into myself with the blame thing. I had an affair with a MM who is in a abusive marriage. He left me to stay with her and I keep getting trapped with not being chosen – like “what is so awful about me that it is better to be with an abuser than me?” I know rationally this is not down to me and my patterns of thinking are very self destructive, but I can’t help it. It railroads my attempts at NC because I keep finding I have to go back to try to get an explanation. I then get told he loves me with all his heart, misses me and grieves heavily over the choice he’s made, but he is broken and has to fix himself on his own. I end up more confused because I then don’t understand how being with his wife is fixing himself on his own but with me isn’t. I know the answer is NC, its just so hard when someone you love is in a toxic situation. I wish I wasn’t so fearful of looking at myself and moving on.
Colly,
You shouldn’t want to be with him because he is liar and a cheater? Forget about the fact the he is in an “alleged” toxic relationship. He is staying with his wife because he never had any intention of leaving in the first place. What you should ask yourself is why you feel the need to be with someone who is attached to someone else! See him for who he is and move on with your life!
Colly,
Please understand that most MM say they they are not appreciated or are in an abusive marriage. Do you really think they are going to tell you they are with someone who is supportive and loving.
I would also try to understand why you would lower yourself to be with a MM? Why is it OK to be #2, and when is ever OK to want to break up a family?
Colly, I’m with Stephanie and Allison.
Did you witness any of this abuse? What grounds do you have for believing that this man was a victim of spousal abuse? Why hasn’t he gone to the police?
I think it’s just a line, to be honest. I wish I could say otherwise, but in around 99% of cases, it’s just a line. A man who is genuinely being abused usually finds it far easier to leave than a woman who is genuinely being abused – especially when there’s a warm, willing and grateful alternative waiting out there with her arms open.
He has no intention of leaving her, and he never did. You’ve been used and played. Go NC and stick to it like glue, and rebuild your self-respect and dignity, which sound like they’ve taken a hammering. You clearly have a kind and loving heart, but this guy has just taken advantage of it.
Stephanie, Allison and Ethelreda,
Many thanks for your responses, I know this man is a liar and a player and I just need someone to keep reminding me of this. I really don’t want this guy at all, I would NEVER trust him, there’s just something about him and the drama that’s played out that activates something in me.
I can feel and visualise a 2-3 yr old version of myself with arms outstretched and crying for someone to notice me and give me love – to be chosen. For some reason I keep reaching to him to provide this when the only person who can provide this is me.
Work-permitting, I’m NC now, there is no other way…and somehow I need to find a way to comfort my inner child.
I remember feeling this way with an ex. I couldn’t understand why he didn’t want a relationship with me but he spent time with other woman! He treated me like an object as if I had no other redeming qualities besides sex! I knew that wasn’t true but I tried so hard to convince him that I was “relationship material”.
Then it hit me–This man is a bum! I had a good job, my own place and car, while he lived with brother, didn’t own a car and barely had a job. Not to mention, he was selfish and cruel. He wasn’t good enough for me! I stopped internalizing his behavior and set my ego aside and accepted that I could do better.
The funny thing was I kinda felt sorry for him because I knew he acted this way because he knew he didn’t have much to offer anybody other than sex. I believe he always knew I could do better than him, but he conviced himself that he was a catch when he was just a loser. He was a chopper and tried treat me like I was beneath him when he clearly knew I saw way more potential in him than he deserved.
I had a wealthy guy do the same- a chopper is a chopper no matter the income level! Selfish, spoiled, entitled , never any reciprocation at helping, looks down on you. Choppers!
Magpie,
For mine it absolutely was selfish and his needs coming first always. If I wanted to see him more than two or three days a week, I was “needy”. If I wanted to go to a wedding or birthday with him “I was naggy”. This is by no means a normal relationship. Most of my friends had so much more of their bfs time and were included in ALL events excepts for occasional girls and guys nights which in my eyes is normal. Funny thing is now he keeps contacting me in the weirdest ways. After I woke up and he realized there are no more chances he has been trying desperately to get me to respond. He showed up to my door once bc I wouldn’t answer his texts to “watch a movie” when mind you I hours before told him to never speak to me again lol. It’s insanity. Then lately he FaceTimes me all the time (we never FaceTimed when together so super odd) and also texted me the other day with just a pic of us on vacation this summer- no message lol. It’s quite entertaining. My friends and I just laugh because he’s so bizarre and desperate. Feels good to be over it and in control. NC for two months despite all of the crazy antics.
Eyes,
Have you blocked this guy yet? If not, then you’re still entangled in the drama.
Again, thank you Natalie for having this site and writing your books. I’ve read the Fallback Girl many times over! I commented earlier in the week on a different post. Some of you will recall that I had an episode where, 3 months post breakup, I thought it would be a good idea to stop by the ex’s house unannounced. He had a woman there. I didn’t see either of them, but could see through the door her purse on the counter and the candles flickering from his bedroom. I’ve been on an emotional roller coaster since then (one week ago). I truly feel like I’m gonna have a breakdown. Why her? Even though I don’t know anything about “her” and the circumstances of her being there (except that they were probably having sex). What did I do wrong in the relationship, although I know I did nothing to warrant the breakup after two years. I’ve never trusted someone with all my being. I’m shaken by this. He has broken my heart into a million pieces and that scares the hell out of me. And no, there were NO signs. He even admitted to blindsiding me. One day we are making plans for this and that, and the next, he is telling me his feelings changed for me. Nothing else. Until last week, I thought he had just freaked out by how close we had become. Realistically, I know it’s not me and it’s him and his selfish ways, but I reeling with thoughts of why I wasn’t good enough ALL OF A SUDDEN when before, he had said I was so many wonderful things. I’m just scared to trust again when I trusted with all of heart, like NEVER before in my life.
Elizabeth, have you read “Men Who Can’t Love”? It might really explain some things. I’m sorry you had to go through that.
And I have to add that right now I am hating myself so much for giving this man so much power over our relationship, the breakup and even now, post-breakup. I am so very down on myself.
Elisabeth, the name of this post applies to you. WHY are you making this about YOU. His suddenly blowing cold is about HIM. I cannot believe that a relationship that HE was totally invested in would cool overnight for him. He is either a player who serially loves ‘em and leaves ‘em, or he got caught up in the fun of “playing at being in love”, or he was in a “this will do for now mode” and did not stop you from doing all the giving you were geared up for.
One thing we have to realize is, just because we love to give and they keep receiving without stopping us, does not mean they have the same feelings for us. It also does not make them the enemy to receive when they know their feelings aren’t as deep. I don’t know why we expect the receiver to stop us. And, “plans” are easy to make, because that really requires no investment.
For him to say he blindsided you possibly means he knows you were more emotionally invested than his interest warranted. He is NOT saying that I was in love with you yesterday but not in love with you today because “someone better” came along. Love and care and trust and respect don’t vanish overnight. Authentic love, care, trust, and respect don’t disappear when “someone better” comes along.
Elisabeth, I agree with Elgie R. It takes a dishonest person to pile on the compliments and talk about the future then leave you cold. They know the implications of their words, but go ahead anyway. It’s cheap. Decent people just don’t do that – if they genuinely get cold feet, it’s disappointing and distressing for them too, because they meant all they said and have now lost that love/future.
But these players just take it in their stride, the only problem for them being the possible wrath of the person they’re blindsiding, and even then they might get a thrill from the attention.
My player had the cruellest MO of getting women to depend on him emotionally, materially, physically, and then ditching them (for now) once he’d got his ego boost. Not on purpose, he was just going with the ebb and flow of his feelings and instincts. But to my mind, he’d seen the destruction and been told by me and probably others, and carried on doing it, so it may as well have been deliberate. I made it all about me, and it destroyed my soul for some years. I think he was extreme, but I do see milder variations of this behaviour in others. It is not about you.
The reason we expect someone to stop us from giving when they know they are taking us for a ride is because we expect the other person to have as much character and integrity as we have. Someone who happily uses someone’s good nature and commitment to fulfill their own needs without any concern for the other person makes them a complete shit and downright evil. They are hollow inside without any empathy or moral compass. A decent person with integrity would stop themselves from taking advantage of you because they would not want to be “that kind of person.”
This is what NML refers to as character versus charm. Someone can be nice to you just to get something for themselves, but someone with character will have already included your feelings in the equation before behaving a certain way.
To use a timely analogy, these people may as well be the Grinch, taking what they want and looking forward to the devastation they intend to impose. Just listen to the words of the Grinch song to understand who and what these people are.
I knew someone would make this point, but I don’t agree wholeheartedly.
Not everyone feels “I am my brother’s keeper”. I don’t agree that because a person does not feel responsible for you and your feelings, that it means that person has NO character.
Who among us hasn’t been on the receiving end of unwanted affection at some point in our lives? Some people get so caught up in their fantasy that YOU are The One that they will not hear the truth. They work to win you. At the extreme, they become stalkerish.
It seems we only get angry when the person WE want does not want us…then we feel they should’ve said something early on…but really, would you have listened, or would you have worked on winning them….? We expect the AC or EU to say in words, “I am willing to have sex with you but I don’t love you.” We all know they say it in actions, by disappearing and reappearing.
Elgie R.- I had a problem with what Cyrano said, too. To piggyback on what you said, lying, cheating, & leading on are no way ok in my book! However, every one of us is responsible for his/her own actions. Why is the other person responsible for our giving or how much we give? It’s OUR responsibility to choose to give (or not) and how much to give.
Also, I’ve learned to check myself to make sure there aren’t strings attached to my giving. If there’s a mental contract in my head that I won’t verbalize to the recipient, I can’t get mad if the other person accepts my gift without “signing” my contract.
Ok, hypothetical: There is a woman that likes me and has made it clear she is available for sex. Should I (A) use her when I’m horny, knowing that I have no intentions of getting into a relationship with her, or (B) be clear that I’m not interested, and won’t have sex with her because I don’t want to lead her on?
You can’t eat your cake and still have it. Either I’m not her keeper, so am feel to enjoy the benefits she is willing to provide, or I am and can choose to not be that kind of person. Which is it?
Cyrano- You can see yourself as not her keeper while still choosing not to have sex with her. My point is that each of us is a grownup and need to take responsibility for the choices we make. The hypothetical woman in your scenario needs to take responsibility for her willingness to jump into bed with someone she likes without going through the discovery phase.
So she can only blame herself if she gets hurt. Thank you.
Cyrano- Blaming herself for his behavior is also a choice. She DOES need to take responsibility for her own actions including accepting possible consequences, such as the guy turning out to be a jerk. Again, it’s called being a grownup.
But that is the point, the person can’t be a jerk if they don’t have any moral obligation to the other person.
What I’m saying is that even if one person makes the mistake in judgement (for which they are responsible), there is still a legitimate critique of the other person’s behavior that can label them as a shit Because there are certain moral standards in the way we treat each other.
What you and Elgie are effectively saying is Caveat Emptor.
Cyrano – Your post is so eloquently written. Loved reading every word.
Thank you. By the way, that should be “free,” not “feel” up above.
I don’t understand. So, I shouldn’t blame him or make him the enemy? He told me that he wasn’t looking for someone else. I know I’m probably looking at this the wrong way and I need to accept it. I just don’t know what it is that I’m accepting.
And on a side note. A long time ago, he lived with a woman for four years. She had a one year old when the relationship began. He went out one night and ran into his college sweetheart. Thought it was date and went home that night and told the woman whom he had been living with that he was done and moving out the very next day. Just like that! Ended up marrying his “sweetheart” but that ended in divorce as she cheated on him with several men. Fast forward to me and him. We fell in love and for two years we had a great relationship. Then, just like that, he’s done. I was good to him, his children, and his family liked me. I just want to see him for the person that he is and it hurts. I feel like a fool.
Meant to say that he thought it was “fate”
Elizabeth, you are not a fool. He is not a monster. He is a person that doesnt have what it takes to stay in things for the long haul. He is emotionally stunted as many people are. He has no attention span beyond a couple of years. Its not about you clearly. He’s done this before, and he is had it done to him too (the cheating spouse, that must have hurt). I am not saying forgive him. But do forgive yourself. Think of all the positive things you did and learnt in this relationship. The thing is that you are not ready to believe that you have to move on, you still have hope for a different outcome and this is making you angry (‘why her, why not me, why wasn’t I good enough, I need to tell him what I think of him’). Its over. It cannot be fixed. You can only now sit and process your anger and more importantly to allow yourself to feel sad for the future you thought you were moving into. He can no longer provide you with anything. He has not ‘moved on’ – he really wasn’t in in the first place but let you think that he was (otherwise why introduce to family?). This guy seems to like to have lived a fantasy relationship which looks real but isn’t.
You will hurt for a while, this is a hard thing to happen. The only thing I would say is do not contact him, do not show up at his house. Accept that it is over. Thats the first step. Then go on from there. It has taken me a few weeks of constant yelling at him in my head so i can process all the anger. Now I feel calmer, I’m better. But the first thing I did was NC, the second thing I did was fully accept that I could never spend time with him again no matter if he called or how lonely or bored I was. Now I can feel the strong emotions starting to die away. Remember, you will not feel like this forever, or even after the next 2 months. Dont let him back into your life if he tries.
Oh Suki… Thank you. Elizabeth, please read and reread what Suki is saying. Every word is right and I agree with everything. The only thing… It takes time to process it all. Yes. The acceptance that you have to move on without him is the hardest thing to do. I think it takes time. Only now after 11 months post breakup I know I have finally accepted everything. No matter how hard I tried in the beginning it didn’t work. Yes, you have to go through grief and anger and yelling at him in your head. I agree with Suki – no contact is a must. No friendship. None. I am so sorry Elizabeth for the hurt you are experiencing right now.
Please continue “living” on this blog if you must. Talk to us and share. I have been healing and grieving throughout on this blog and posting under the stress when the article was not even related to what I was talking about. I always had such great support and still do. Trust me, the first 6 months are the hardest. Then, it will be waves, and then naturally and eventually it will just go away by itself. The memories and slight very lightly dull pain will remain, but it will go away. Don’t rush yourself to accept it is over. You can’t. Just like you can’t grieve the loss instantly. It takes time. Read about grief process. About all the stages and how it works. You will recognize what you are going through. Right now you are in the earliest stage. Denial and bargaining. It will take time but you will get there. Thank you, Suki. You summarized all the work I have done in 11 months.
So, he lived with a woman for four years and left her overnight, just like that? And you still think there were no red flags?? And you still think this is about you and not about him and his pattern of behaviour?
Yes, Mephista, he did. She was blindsided as well. I don’t know the dynamics of that relationship, but I do know she wasn’t expecting that. He moved out from her and in with the other. Just like that. And do you know what he told me? That he did her a favor because eventually, she got back together with her old boyfriend, got married and had more kids. He did her a favor!! And, I know during our relationship he had me on one huge ass yoyo string. Telling me that if we had met when younger we would have been married and had a lot of kids. Well, what’s wrong with marrying me now that we are older?! Broke up last year as well and when we got back together told me that he did not want to be the couple who ways breaks up and gets back together…at the time I thought he meant that we would stay together and he would give it his all, but maybe he knew all along we would be “that couple”. He introduced me to his family, but never wanted me around for the holidays. Asked me to help him decorate his house, but when I jokingly said “no, why would I do that so the next woman can enjoy it”, he said “okay, I understand”. What was I thinking?! But, he always had a way of smoothing things over and making me feel oh so important.
I had a flashback feeling of rejection – something someone said above made me think back to being left out as a child. Like that feeling when you know you’re not wanted, have been excluded. AND I wonder – why do we internalize this and make it about ourselves? Why doesnt it make us think, eff it, I’m better off by myself, I deserve better than these people and I am going to go and look for people who dont make me feel like this?
I was out with some people a few days ago and realized that me and some others didn’t want to go somewhere noisy, thats not us – so we decided lets go for a walk and then go to my place and have coffee and us four women walked away separately. I have no idea what we chatted about, silly things, but we were laughing and I felt like I could forget myself. I felt that elusive sense of belonging which we are all chasing.
So there are wonderful times to be had, and good people out there. If you dont get quickly rid of the ones that just dont get you, you are stuck, you are not open to the truly wonderful experiences out there.
And its important to label your feelings. E.g. I knew that night that a noisy place was not for me, that I wanted somewhere calm. Similarly we should KNOW what rejection feels like, so that when you feel it you say ‘this is rejection, its not about me, but I have to back off now because it never ends well’. No one should get to reject you.
See, if someone I dont know well kind of ‘rejects’ me, doesnt acknowledge me, leaves me off an invite, thats just a snub, that is rude etc but not a rejection. Someone you know well should not be rejecting you — breaking up with the ex-EU/AC didn’t hurt as much as the daily rejection he put me through. Someone breaking up with you in a decent way is not rejection – its a loss, of a shared future, and plans etc. Rejection is a feeling generated either through your own weaknesses or because the other person is not a good person, is treating you as far less than you deserve, is making you compete for attention. When the EUM told me he wasn’t ready to date (and I knew that perhaps the message was ‘not ready to date you’) I didn’t feel rejected, I was kind of hurt and felt sad. BUT when the EUM kept saying he wasn’t sure what he wanted, but was hitting on women very publicly to make sure I would notice, AND pursuing me, pulling back, having sex, pulling back, insisting on no relationship while pursuing me – THEN i felt rejected. I had been rejected for other women, for his mental state, his work, his busyness, what not. And I should have quit the first time i felt that feeling – because that feeling is a poison it doesnt go away and people that are not really good relationship material are the people that will make you feel that way.
So I think we should meditate on how rejection makes us FEEL, who makes us feel that, and then in future stay away from those that trigger that feeling.
Suki, “Like that feeling when you know you’re not wanted, have been excluded. AND I wonder – why do we internalize this and make it about ourselves?” – this is what I am working on right now with a therapist right now too. She says that for many many people it’s a sign, however banal it sounds, that they did not get that need of feeling wanted and accepted filled by their parents and it still hurts. Parents are the ONLY people in our lives who could give us that feeling. I came to accept that my parent(s) were incapable of providing this for many reasons. And there’s not a single person who can feel this void now. It’s just how our psyche works. My therapist says that when during her work she went into foster homes for especially cruelly abused kids (think kids of violent alcoholics who stabbed their children etc) and the kids were in physical pain but they still cried for “mommy” in those moments. It’s just how we are wired when we are kids. But the good news is that you can fill that void yourself. I am still struggling with giving MYSELF that acceptance that I feel neglected and rejected in some social situations. AND that is pains like hell (because it mirrors my previous rejections). But right now I stay with this feeling. I acknowledge it. As some wise reader wrote here recently – I acknowledge this pain (kind of like – Hi. I see you there), I stay with it as if it was a small scared child and then I think of what a healthy thing would be for me to do FOR MYSELF now. If I am in a cafe with friends/colleagues/whatever and someone says or does something that triggers this feeling, you can stay with it (in your head) and then order a piece of chocolate cake 🙂 or tell that friend “ouch!”. I am babbling, but I can really relate to what you are saying and trying to figure it out myself.
Oh, and having spent so many years attached to an AC who was all about his needs and his ego does not make it easy either. After that, even the tinies rejection brings me back the pain of him rejecting my love and our future. Hugs to you, Suki. Stay strong.
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What a powerful and extremely sad image. So true. I think an image like that is great insight for those of still bewildered as to why we cry out for someone who treated us so poorly. The fact is, like mommy, we bonded with that person. They didn’t always treat us like crap or we wouldn’t have bonded. There were special moments, it was probably great in the beginning, I loves you’s were exchanged, sex, etc. All of this bonds you to someone. So when they start abusing/being emotionally detached, whatever, we’re still going to cry out for “mommy”. So sad.
This is the quote I was trying to paste. Not sure why it won’t with brackets around it:
My therapist says that when during her work she went into foster homes for especially cruelly abused kids (think kids of violent alcoholics who stabbed their children etc) and the kids were in physical pain but they still cried for “mommy” in those moments.
Suki
– THEN i felt rejected. I had been rejected for other women, for his mental state, his work, his busyness, what not. And I should have quit the first time i felt that feeling – because that feeling is a poison it doesnt go away and people that are not really good relationship material are the people that will make you feel that way.
So I think we should meditate on how rejection makes us FEEL, who makes us feel that, and then in future stay away from those that trigger that feeling.
I can totally relate to this and I, wholeheartedly, agree with you. I’m starting to really try to be conscious of who I surround myself with and no longer bother with those who are not decent or good people. I will also no longer waste time with trying to figure out what it is with those I just meet who wave their red flags. I really am trying to recognize that it isn’t always about me. But it’s a work in progress and not always so easy.
“An equal opportunity blame absorber”
I can’t stop thinking about that!
Natalie’s post is very timely. Some of you may have seen my other post where I described meeting up with my ex-EUM, whom I’ve only seen twice in 3 years since the break-up. The last time we met up in a bar and ended up making out. I always feel like I’ll be in love with this man in some way, it’s like a chronic disease I’ve just learned to live with. But a week later, I finally said something about the evening (we still email) and he said “All I remember is that we argued.” LOL!!! Talk about gaslighting. How do you not remember a makeout sesh and all of the nice things you said to me? Oh, right, because you don’t want to remember. Anyway, 3 years ago I would have been crushed and cried all night about this. But now I just actually felt sorry for him. How detached from your emotions to you have to be to not remember kissing and instead imagine a fight that didn’t happen? I don’t think it has to do with me at all. He’s just a very detached, broken, and practically delusional person. And it was a nice reminder of what I don’t have to deal with anymore!
Diane, that is some awful gas lighting. Bad news. I think the hallmark of gas lighting and emotional manipulation is if people make you feel like you should carry around a notebook documenting conversations because they tend to live with a different definition of reality. So people that apologize then refuse to acknowledge that they apologized or ‘take back’ the apology [and think about the nature of your conversations if you are rehashing issues to the extent that people can take back apologies – and I have been with an AC that did this constantly so all my examples are from him]. People that refuse to acknowledge that something has been already negotiated and decided. People that refuse to acknowledge real events e.g. that you havent had sex in months, or you havent done anything together in x amount of time. And again imagine a relationship in such a disintegrated state that you’re arguing over when you last did something (and i mean something basic like sex or watch TV together or eat together not something kind of niche that isn’t essential for a relationship).
How do people really do this? You should have laughed in his face and said really? seriously? I think both detached from feelings but more importantly no class at all, and a fear that they are unable to deal with sticky situations where other people’s emotions are potentially involved. Its really cowardly actually. Dont make out with someone if you’re going to then say that you dont even remember it. Oooffff! AND its insulting! LIke oh yeah it wasn’t even important enough to remember but you argued with me and I remember that. Its like that pick-up-artist trick called ‘negging’ where you say negative things to the woman to ‘hook’ her.
yeah, it was really bizarre. but a hallmark of our relationship was his gaslighting me. It started from the very beginning when we first discussed being exclusive. A week or so later, I found out he was seeing someone else. When I confronted him on it, he looked blankly at me and said, “I don’t remember saying we wouldn’t see other people.” BOING!! We’d had a HUGE conversation about it. Don’t get me started on why I went back with him, it would take up ten websites. But it’s very interesting to see he is still gaslighting! I haven’t contacted him since he said that, though he’s contacted me. Something about it just snapped something inside of me. Hope I can keep it up.
And yes, carrying around a notebook, exactly. Towards the end of the relationship with him, I actually started saying, “I’m writing this down! You better sign this!” etc. I also felt like carrying around a tape recorder so I could play back all the things he said he never said. More than a few times, I suggested he get his memory checked. Then he began using that line on me. It was BEYOND bizarre. I didn’t know what gaslighting was and thought that we were just miscommunicating, so I kept trying to improve our communication. Little did I know it wasn’t going to improve because he was mishearing, misreading, misremembering, on PURPOSE.
I am going to share my story of the week and relating to the article too.
I have been single and not even attempting a date for 11 months now.
Recently at some social function I met a guy with whom I had a great conversation and got really interested in him or more so the professional interest because I am trying to transition into a career that he is in. I won’t put the details here just to keep it private.
Anyway, he gave me his business card asking to contact and he will help me out. I emailed him later in the day, saying that the prospect of getting this job and entering the field is enticing and please let me know if there is a particular way to apply.
Then I hadn’t heard from him for 3 days and I thought, well, because I am trying to network and get into a different field, I got to be a bit pushy and persistent (I did like the guy though, which is good!! Means I am healing because I finally noticed another male! All this time I could not even think about dating because I couldn’t even imagine anything like that. ). So I followed up with a text thinking that work e-mail servers ( I got his work e-mail only from the business card) might spam outside sources. Mine does, so I thought ok, I will try by text. Calling would be perhaps too pushy. I texted him and asked him professionally that if there is a good time to talk, please let me know, I will call you to discuss.
He replied almost instantly saying that no, he didn’t get my emails and that it must have gone to spam. He suggested to meet if I would like to help me with a work application process. I said sounds good and told him that I would be available this weekend for some parts of the day.
Well. I haven’t heard from his since Tuesday (when we exchanged the two texts).
That’s where the juice of this article kicks in and all the BR training for 11 months I have put myself through. The previous me went through a FIT that I texted a wrong sentence, did something wrong, etc. The new me told me: if he didn’t reply, it doesn’t tell anything about ME. This is his behavior based on: maybe he is with someone else, maybe married (no ring but this doesn’t say much nowadays), maybe not interested in me. Does his lack of response say that I am not attractive enough, not interesting, not valuable not worthy? NO. It is just his behavior based on whatever is going on his life. Doesn’t have to do anything with my life. After one day of anxiety attack ( my previous comfortable discomfort zone TYPICAL BEHAVIOR), I snapped out of it next day. I told myself, look, it’s not ABOUT YOU. It is his situation. His actions or no actions do not define my worth. Chill, relax, let it go. Yes, I liked him besides the professional interest, but he might have not liked me. And that’s ok! So what I am saying is that I have learned so much in 11 months. Thank you, Nat! And yes, their behavior or no behavior, doesn’t define or tell you anything about you. You know what’s interesting though? It’s like I could as an outsider look at me freaking out and saying to myself, Hey Sofia, that was former you. Freaking out , anxious, let’s throw couple more texts, depression that I am not good enough. No more! Now my motto is IT IS NOT ABOUT YOU. It is his life and his choice not to choose to pursue a date/interest with you. Doesn’t mean you are not good enough. No.
So that was my story. But I did get a bit excited. A first date attempt in a year almost. Felt nervous. We had some chemistry I felt it. Great conversation.
So the good thing: if I am ready to date I have moved on quite ok. I like that:)
I just reread my post and thought that it might be confusing to some people. It looks like I wanted a professional kind of meeting but have an expectation for a date. Hmm.. It is or rather it was both. I was interested in both but the first drive was professional, no doubt.
Regardless, either kind of expectation: professional networking or a date: if the person ignores you – this doesn’t define your worth. I had to literally calm myself down to stop rolling in my familiar comfortable discomfort zone. I am learning! I got out fast. In one day! Because I know the difference now.
Do not let other people define who you are. Wonderful article.
For some years now I have been coming to this website for uplift and empowerment on my relationships. I have even recommend this site to friends and would like to comment Natalie for what she does. I have never written any comments until now, because I feel like I am losing my mind.
Some time ago I found out that a guy I had been in a relationship with for 10 years got another chick pregnant. I got over this quickly because thanks to this website I knew he was nothing but a douche. I figured I was mentally stable enough and started going out with a Mr. unavailable. My 10 year guy was my first and Mr. Unavailable was my second. I loved the idea of the secrecy at first. I felt liberated because I was for once making a decision to just have sex for me. I told him from early that I was Inlove with him and he then reciprocated in the beginning. But things started changing. It was always I’m not ready for a relationship, I can’t be with you right now.. Then I found out another young lady came into the picture. I asked about her and it was always it’s not that serious. You making a big deal out of nothing. Be patient with me.. I was given hope and I guess he did everything to appease me. Then there were no responses to my text, sex got less frequent, he stopped taking me out on dates. During the times he did show up he cooked for me, we had nice conversations and sometimes he would just show up to check on me. Recently I found out that he got engaged and was expecting a baby. He never told me about and never discussed it with me. Through a text he told me that he could no longer keep in touch with me because he had to move on in his life????. I was devasted and have not stopped crying since.
I come to this site for encouragement but there is only so much this site can do for me. I am having a mental war and breakdown. My days and nights are all about crying and when I’m not crying I’m thinking and over thinking is he happy, what did I miss, how could I have allowed this to happen to me. Twice!!!
I am very successful with a career and three degrees the highest of which is a phd. I have a lot going for me which is why I find it so hard to fathom that he never saw me as wifey material just the side chick. I hate myself for devaluing myself and allowing a man to use me only for sex. Many of my friends spoke about casual sex and I wanted to experience that not realizing that I was not cut out for that kind of life.
When I talk to the few people who know about the situation they keep telling me that I am thinking silly to the point where I think I a thinking silly. I had taken on this so severely until I read this post that their behavior is really nt about me, why am I making it about me. The character of this dude to send me a text instead of manning up and talking to me speak volumes. When I say that the marriage is doomed because he was cheating on me all throughout their one year relationship I am told that I am being a grumpy side chick. When I say that the marriage is only because of the baby.. I am still being told I am just jealous!!!!!
I just want to stop thinking and over thinking and get out of this situation. Clearly mr ass clown nor his fiancé are up on sites typing about me. So why have I decided to take on his behavior and make it my problem?
If anyone knows how to deal with this please let me know because it is such a sucky place to be and I don’t want to be here right now.
I have been through this before where I have dust myself up and moved on realizing that it was not about me but about my previous dude. I reflected and learnt from the situation instead of believing that it was me to blame or my fault. I did the no contact rule, I built up myself esteem and I moved on with my life. This one just hit me so much harder and I feel like in going crazy and don’t know what to do! Please tell me how to cope! Thank you
Suki!
I do not know how to respond to you post directly. Thank you so much for this post! Now I know what it is that I am feeling and why it is I am going through this. It feels like rejection. I was rejected for somebody else. In the beginning I was told about marriage and kids and a future. And as much as recently I was told if we dated back then then we would be married with kids by now. There was a hope and a future but even though I saw the red flags I decided to ignore it and that’s no one to blame but me. I have everything going for me but that was not enough for two men to “reject” me. Sometimes I go down the spiral of thinking I’m not good enough but I stop myself and think I am too damn good for either of them and that they settled for less either which way. Their behavior does not reflect on me but on them because they are too damn stupid to realize what’s infront on them. Granted I dodged a bullet and that they might have found their soul mates…. But neither treated me with class and dignity that I deserved. Surely you don’t treat one with disrespect and 40 with respect. No your character is such that you treat all with disrespect.
The rejection hurts … For a brief moment u feel less of a woman, you feel stupid, you feel vulnerable, you question your self worth and your value. After all people only reject what’s bad, what they don’t want for something so much better.
Truth is people reject good stuff for bad stuff all the time and the rejection is not about you but about them, so don’t take it personally… Things have a way of revealing itself
Preshusdee – These men do not have souls, therefore, will not find their soulmates, they just find their right now mates. The fact that he kept you on the side while being with someone else and getting her pregnant tells me that he has no character, no morals and only cares about himself and what he can get from others to suit him in the moment. This is exactly how my ex is. I focused for a long time on my ex’s actions and words. And it was really just so I wouldn’t have to focus on myself. I would suggest that you sign up for Natalie’s self esteem class, and start doing things that make you happy. I read somewhere that the more things you do that make you happy, the less you will think about them and I think its true. I am sure that you are right that their marriage is doomed and its just as I have said that my ex’s relationship will eventually crash adn burn as he moved quickly with someone who was recently separated and then ended up cheating on her with me. :/ Its satisfying to think that they will eventually both crash and burn – but we have to live our lives and be happy!
I am so guilty of this…and yet!
I am slowly learning to be gentle with myself. I think my biggest issue is trust, in the sense that I always, ALWAYS, have second thoughts about myself, my actions, etc.
A good way to put this “not making it about me” would be to think that, for example, if a guy has stepped over some boundaries and I had to remaind him of them by stopping our acquaintance, it is not that he has treated me badly because of who/how/ I am, but I have “blocked him” because of my healthy boundaries. This way I feel we can cease to be the passive party and become proactive. It’s very hard for me because I don’t love nor trust myself enough and I have abandonment issues, but it’s a good perspective.
Like yesterday, I met a guy at a club who seemed interested, then went for a drink but didn’t come back to me and my friends and danced two metres from us instead, than came to me trying to “make peace”.
I have ignored him, but it still a)felt hard to do because I started overthinking “may be he run away from me because I told him I am an engineer but am now studying cultural antrhopology” (but really, I think I have done this precisely to test him: if something like this scares him, then let him go! Even though I know I should be careful with giving too much detail about my life too soon) b)was painful because I connected it to a string of a****** I have met in the past 3 1/2 years, since I broke up with my EUM.
I think I over-think and over-“suffer” exactly because I still don’t trust nor love myself enough, hence the exaggerated importance I give to a random guy who could be a serial killer, for all I know! 😛 so that I make it all about me being “too this and to that” when it’s a) him, his choice and b) something trivial.
I never thought I could hurt this much! I really do want it to stop. I hate going out in fear that I going to run into him. I just wish I could erase the time we spent together and that’s sad because I loved this man with all of my heart. I cry all of the time. It’s been three months. I know that it’s him and not me, but I can’t help but to think it HAS to be me, else why would he not want to be with me. I know I’m babbling, but I just want someone to take the pain and all of the memories away. Some of you in here are so strong. I always thought I was a strong person, but this has tested me to the core.????. Maybe it’s the way he built up my trust for him and then pulled it out from under me so abruptly. I feel like such a baby. Such a mess. I don’t know why. Any encouragement would be appreciated.
You say you know it isn’t you, but in the same breath, you say it HAS to be you … so this isn’t something you’ve accepted yet. Society brainwashes us to make us think that it’s always our fault. Look how it treats rape victims: “What were you wearing?” “How much did you have to drink?” etc. And women buy into that. Don’t be too hard on yourself, it can take a long time to finally accept that his behavior has nothing to do with you.
Thank you, Diane. I do, at times, feel brainwashed. He had me on such a long yoyo string from one day to the next.
And…I have to keep reminding me that it was his personality I was in love with. Not his character. He has shown me his true character, but I have this crazy notion that he’s changed over night and is a different person than he was with me and someone else is going to benefit from that. How effed up is that??
I recently broke ties with a friend of mine. She was too much drama and a gossip Queen. She met my ex once. Just once. Briefly. 8 mos ago. Now, I find out yesterday that they are friends on FB. What?! This has only added to my stress.
Whoa there, girl. Steady …You’re in the thick of the anger phase, and you’re very shaky and hurt right now. This is all understandable. Don’t freak out; just ride it out.
Some of you will recall that I had an episode where, 3 months post breakup, I thought it would be a good idea to stop by the ex’s house unannounced.
And here I turn into the Relationship Plumber once again, and straighten up and say, ‘Well, lady, there’s your problem right there’, pointing to the nasty tangled clump of emotions that has stopped your pipes … What happened to No Contact? Can you see now why NC is the single most important and healing gift after any breakup? Don’t turn over that rock.
It takes time and discipline and saying ‘no’ to yourself firmly, but oh, it does save you such a lot of weeping and hurt when you blunder into situations like this one.
He had a woman there. I didn’t see either of them, but could see through the door her purse on the counter and the candles flickering from his bedroom.
Last time I looked, most of us on BR live in free countries, where people who are legally adults can do what they like, with whom they like, consenting, in their own homes. This would have all been fine, and in fact none of your business, if you hadn’t broken NC …
This is pretty hard to say, but I am not blaming the victim here, because there isn’t a victim. You can and MUST go NC, and stick to it. This embarrassing situation is a blessing in disguise, because it’s taught you this hard lesson, the hard way.
What did I do wrong in the relationship,
Nothing. He just didn’t want to go out with you any more, which means there is no more relationship. It’s accepting this and moving on that is the hardest part.
He even admitted to blindsiding me. One day we are making plans for this and that, and the next, he is telling me his feelings changed for me. Nothing else. Until last week, I thought he had just freaked out by how close we had become. Realistically, I know it’s not me and it’s him and his selfish ways, but I reeling with thoughts of why I wasn’t good enough ALL OF A SUDDEN when before, he had said I was so many wonderful things. I’m just scared to trust again when I trusted with all of heart, like NEVER before in my life.
Elizabeth, I am so sorry that he has simply dumped you like this. It’s very painful; it’s happened to me, and I know how humiliating it is.
Blindsiding and ‘sudden changes’ like this actually don’t happen very often in real life. You may have to face the fact that this man was being unfaithful to you, before you broke up. It sounds like he met someone and started a new thing with her, and then he’s finally manned up enough to tell you.
This is hugely humiliating, but it might also take the pressure off you asking yourself what you did wrong. He is the one who may very well have done the wrong thing here.
But for crying out loud, DON’T make it your business to cross-examine him about it! One of the best pieces of advice I’ve ever been given was to be told, ‘You will never get to the bottom of some things’, and the lady who told me this was 100% right, and it’s saved me hours of obsessing since I started to put it into practice.
Now is your time to go NC, completely, and spend time putting yourself back together again. This means putting YOU back together again, and simply leaving him alone to get on with his life. Stop monitoring him, even on Facebook. Stop torturing yourself with who said what to whom, and why your friend is friends with him on FB. It honestly doesn’t matter, because he is not your business any longer. And you will never get to the bottom of it.
What matters now is you. This is when you start putting yourself first, and rediscovering the wonderful Elisabeth that got lost/silenced/shut down in that relationship’s fallout. The sooner you start to go NC and commit to it, the sooner you will start to heal.
You need major distraction therapy. Do whatever it is that floats your boat – get out the holiday brochures, the shopping catalogues, the art gallery openings, the invitations, whatever. Get it out and start thinking about what you love, and what you can do, yourself, which is fun and relaxing and distracting and cheering-up.
May the Force be with you, girlfriend – the best revenge is to come out smiling and happy and relieved that this man is now out of your life, because he did NOT deserve you. End of story.
Oh Elisabeth,
Once you start to UNDERSTAND and BELIEVE that nothing you have done or said or did or didn’t do had any effect on the outcome of this relationship with this man.
This man is an adult not a child or a pet and you have NO CONTROL over what he or anyone thinks or does.
What sort of strange power do you think you have that can influence anyone to do something they don’t really want to do? If some numpty tells you that you made them do something that was out of their character and went against their grain, it’s an out and out lie, don’t believe a word of it. If they are acting like a shit, that’s who they are and it’s got nothing to do with you.
What makes you think he has changed and why do you think this is all down to you? People change ONLY when they want to and that’s a cold hard fact.
Why does this all have to be about you, it isn’t. Just because you loved him doesn’t give you any rights to him, he doesn’t have to love you back, that’s not how it works. Once you understand that he didn’t see you as the love of his life you back right off and LET GO.
He was never yours from the get go and if you look at the whole relationship you will see there were plenty of red flags that you totally ignored because of your feelings.
I’ve been there, done that like so many women here on BR.
Dry your eyes dear girl and get out of the house, you don’t love this man anymore, he’s just a dream of what might have been.
About that feeling that we all have that you’ve somehow fixed them and the next person will get a better version of him. This feeds the ‘why her’ feeling. The problems with this mindset; first, it implies that you are a worse version of yourself [if you came out stronger, you wouldn’t think so much about him]. Which means you think you treated him better than you were treated. Thats a relationship we shouldn’t have been in. If you were steadily becoming a worse version of yourself, while he pumped himself up – what a terrible position to put yourself in. He was a parasite.
Second, that you feel you somehow raised him into a functional partner AND it was at the cost of the relationship. If you have to fundamentally raise a guy up, that guy is bad news. The moment he’s raised up, he’s outta there cuz he’s going to resent you big time. You’re his mommy, the bad mommy. He wanted good mommy, the kind, unconditional love. But you were bad – the one who pointed out his crap or were better than him at most things. You aren’t perfect princess that he believes he deserves – you know, the media etc talk like women are raised on the disney prince idea, but men are raised on the ‘cool girl’ aren’t they, their disney princess, the giver of sex, ego strokes, home cooked meals, well dressed, raises your kids while you watch football allowing you to play dada whenever you need to pat yourself on the back for your great genes… what is that but the guy’s version? and EUMs are working with this ideal, and by allowing yourself to be treated badly AND worse calling him out on it, you’ve ruined it for him.
[personal experience – ex was a mess when he met me, I mean a total mess but well hidden from others. I fell for him because it was so hidden and then I was drip fed etc and we did have great chemistry to start with. When we ended it, on the surface he was in so much better shape, I won’t go into reasons. I was a wreck, from having kept his secrets, maintained his public persona for him, while being gaslighted and rejected every single day etc. I think he didn’t change at all – just the rough edges were rubbed off because I’m sure he realized that if he wanted to keep a gf he’d actually have to get his lies straight, straighter than he had with me. Did I raise him up? Absolutely. I wouldn’t want such a guy once its over though, and I should never have put in the effort. I was a better person than him when I went in, I’m a better person than him now].
So… If it feels good, fine. If it feels good at the moment and then feels like crap, what are you doing?! if it always feel crap… errr! do we really need to discuss that one?!
We need to start labeling our feelings and what we are doing more accurately. ‘Raising a guy up’ – get out! ‘Guy is married’ – get out! Guy is lying – get out! Guy is flip flopping – get out! I feel like crap – get out! Guy is pretending we didn’t have sex – for gods sake, get out!
And you know this doesnt make the anxiety go away, it all takes time. rationally i can say these things, but I still feel bad, rejected, I’m just kind of labeling my feelings better, and talking myself through each week and I’m smarter at it [e.g. if I hear his name from friends, I know this creates anxiety so I consciously tune out, instead of seeking for more information I make sure I hear as little as I can. I dont need to know]. But I guess rationally getting through it is step 1-15. Feeling less is a lot harder, comes afterward.
Suki, I am starting to feel like a shadow as I tend to always comment on your posts but, girl, do they hit home! Hit hard.
Your story sounds so much like mine.
What interested me though is this phrase “EUMs are working with this ideal, and by allowing yourself to be treated badly AND worse calling him out on it, you’ve ruined it for him”. I am wondering how common this is.
When I found out some nasty, utterly disgusting sh!t about my EUM and his fake promises to me I had a long period of reassessment aka what else was a lie. I ended up telling him that and after months of fights or rather me asking and asking and blaming and eventually cursing at him he told me “I don’t blame you that you hate me. I blame you that you TELL me you hate me”. I felt like a door opened up in his mind! Bingo! This person did not care what was actually happening to the relationship or in my heart/to me, all he cared about was NOT to be bothered by the factual reality. Our “happiness” and him staying with me depended on how well I kept my mouth shut. Wondering if it’s a common denominator with these men/women.
Hi Why! I think Natalie says this, that EUMs treat you worse if you put up with the red flags because you’ve shown yourself as someone that doesnt have boundaries and will make do with crumbs. So they’ll respect you more if you walk away from them [though thats why you need NC, because they might pursue if you walk away].
There was a scene in a movie where the character says ‘how did you know you were a man/adult’ and the other guy says ‘when i knew what was the right thing to do and i did it’. or words to that effect. I think EUMs/ACs dont do the right thing which is the right thing to do. They march to the beat of their own drummer when it comes to relationships – they dont want rules about truth, lies, kindness, reciprocity, trust, appropriate boundaries, compassion, they dont want these to slow them down to what they want. This doesnt make them bad people all the time – one of the exEUM was a great person to be around, could be very kind and warm, but also could be all these things and said ‘rules are for traditional people’ and yes he had spent most of his life alone, single because even dating was too much for him and he had a harem instead, a fantasy life. I think some of us are working with rules, and some of us aren’t. Some of us want something real and know that you need rules for that, and others dont. Unfortunately wanting something real doesnt mean you get it, doesnt mean you yourself aren’t somewhat EU, and I am also wondering whether we do the ‘right’ thing in everyday ways (not lying, compromising etc) but not in the big ways (not getting in with problematic people, really taking care of ourselves, not gaslighting ourselves).
Suki, one of my ex-EUM’s saying was, “I don’t know how to compromise. I am used to being alone and find it hard to find a middle ground.” Basically he admitted that he is so used to being alone that he has difficulties building a relationship, which requires a lot of patience and compromise especially past a certain time frame and when faced with difficulties. I like your explanation about the rules. Being in and building an intimate long-term relationship does require rules such letting your boundaries down (for the people who are closed up) but keeping your boundaries (for those who have none or don’t know how to keep them), being ready to compromise and not do it all on your terms, your timing, your ways. Being in a relationship basically means shifting a focus from ME, ME, ME, to it’s US now while preserving your identity. This requires work and abandonment of some habits of the previous life style. Do long-term EUMs want to do that that? No, unless when and if they are ready meaning it’s on their terms and timing and they will do all those things. Maybe. Temporarily. Like I said before I quit figuring out what they do. I am figuring out what I do and how I live.
Sofia,
Your post really lifted me up today. After ending the relationship with my ex to open myself to what I truly deserve, which is a relationship with someone who wants a solid committed future with me, I have been doing pretty good and optimistic. This last week with the holidays I got a little down. Not because I miss my ex, but because everywhere I have gone lately I have been meeting guys that are 25 or older guys in their 30s that are douchey (I am 29). For the first time I feel like I’m at this odd age where I find it hard to find a guy around my age (I’m looking for 27-36) that isn’t too young or an immature bachelor for life. Reading you comment about talking to myself like I would my daughter really reminded me that it really only has been 3 months and the right person will come when it’s meant to. I guess if I did meet a quality guy I wouldn’t feel this way (I have had offers for dated but declined from immature unavailable types). I am independent and have a good job, am attractive, and have a great personality. I know it’ll come when it’s meant to and can’t be hard on myself. I feel these days people are having children into their mid 30s so I have time, but I could imagine my life without ever experiencing have a child 🙁 Times have changed so much. I wish I were dating when my parents did in their era.
I am independent and have a good job, am attractive, and have a great personality. I know it’ll come when it’s meant to
Or not, as the case may be. But it shouldn’t matter whether it does or doesn’t. You have so much to offer the world, and so much life to live. Get to the place where you are ENOUGH, just you, and then anything that does or doesn’t happen really is icing on the cake, not cake to fill the aching void inside.
Times have changed so much. I wish I were dating when my parents did in their era.
Yeah, right:
*When 21 was ‘on the shelf’ for a woman.
*When there were almost no apartments available for rent for women who wanted to move out of their parents’ homes.
*When women couldn’t rent an apartment without a man’s signature on the lease, even if it was their father’s.
*When women couldn’t get a mortgage or a bank loan in their own name.
*When women were routinely sexually harrassed in the office.
*When an unplanned pregnancy out of wedlock meant a life of ruin and misery, FOR EVER.
*When there was no equal pay.
*When there was a glass ceiling so thick you could build a skyscraper on it.
*Where date rape meant silence, suffering and shame for the woman, with no legal recourse.
*When rape in marriage was legal, or at least ignored by the courts.
*When it was almost impossible for a single woman to be financially independent.
I don’t know how old your parents are, but this is what life was like in my country when my parents met and married. NO THANK YOU.
Don’t romanticise the ‘good old days’, because they weren’t some kind of soft-focus haze of long skirts and ponytails and chaste kisses, where courtship and marriage were so much easier than they are now. Things were hard then; it was just a different kind of hard to what you have now.
Ethelreda
Your list made me cringe but it was all true. Thank whatever higher power you believe in that many women have fought the good fight in the past so that we their children, have things much easier now than 40 years ago.
I can’t imagine not being able to get a home loan without a male signature on the contract or a passport and so many other things I just take for granted these days.
It’s not so easy for men to get away with rape, violence and abuse towards women although it still happens too much in all societies, some more than others. The groundwork has been laid and change comes slowly but it will come. My granddaughter will grow up in a totally different world to the one I grew up in. Hopefully better.
Hell yeah.
I can also add that I have all my own teeth, thanks to modern dentistry which is cheap and affordable, and I am not dead in childbirth, which was the fate of too many women, even just 40 years ago. In fact, it still is, in some parts of the world.
We are SO LUCKY, but we still have a ways to go. Count your blessings this Christmas season!
Exactly. Whatever we go through now finding it sooo hard to find a guy to commit, I’ll take that over the era my parents/grandparents had, and esp my great-grandparents, even tho their marriage worked out awesome. They got lucky.
Two words.
Indoor. Plumbing.
One more
Contraception.
Ethelreda, great list!
I am the same age as Eyes Wide Open and my mom had me when she was 20 years old. I am so grateful I have a choice and do not have to have kids this early if I don’t want to. She was already married when I was born but boy was she a child herself! And as Ethelreda says, getting pregnant back then (though it was only 30 years ago) meant you had to stand to public scrutiny of the society and your family. All my life I felt that she regretted this decision. She actually told me this when I was older. She said “I love you and I am glad to have had you. But I regret so much not having lived in my youth. Not having had those experiences that young people have”.
People died younger, of course, so the young marriage made sense. But I bet there were lots of women like your mother, who might have chosen differently if there had been different options available.
My mother says things like this from time to time, and I don’t take it personally!
So many women (and men) back then were made to feel as though “doing the family thing” were their only option regardless of whether they were so inclined or up to the job. Women especially lost the best part of their youth and are/full of regrets. Even in the 80’s, when I was in my 20’s, there was a sort of backlash against educated/non family chix such as myself calling us “selfish” and “greedy” for not having kids. As though there was a shortage or something. I once asked my dad why on Earth he’d married my mother (fraught with problems from day 1) and had a family: he said “it was time I tried to settle down and was just what you did”. No, don’t take it personally.
Without having a child*
I recently got an invite to a nice event with a plus one. I asked a friend if she’d like to go and she said yes. On the night before the event, she started flip flapping so I gave her an out which she took. I asked someone else who accepted.
On the morning of the event flip flapper texted to say she’d changed her mind & wanted to go now – although she knew I had filled the spot. She wanted me to ‘crash’ her, I said no. Silence since. I’m irritated by her behaviour and unsure if I should a) confront her b) let it go or c) let the friendship go. I’d really appreciate advice if one of you can offer it.
Hi Ella,
If this has been a recurring pattern of flip flapper then definitely let it go and let her go. Do not be afraid to do what you need to do and know what is right for you. Flip flappers you can always keep at arms length or choose to drop altogether especially if you have pulled them up so many times on whatever yet the wayward behaviour continues. They do so because you haven’t done what will hit them the most…leave.
Oh Ella, HOW ANNOYING. I can’t stand it when people do things like this to me!
You did the right thing. Stand firm, and keep quiet. Wait and see what happens.
She’ll either:
a) get over her snit with you, in which case your friendship may be improved by having some proper boundaries and some more respect (this has happened to me with various friendships, and it’s been a godsend);
b) not get over her snit with you, and never speak to you again – in which case, GREAT! She’s saved you a whole lot of hassle, and now you have room for new friends who don’t dick you around.
I suppose there are subtle variations on these themes, like her staying friends with you, but bringing this incident up over and over – in which case, flush …
Ella,
I think you did the right thing. If she’s a good friend, I would confront her and tell her how you feel. If not, I’d let her be the one to contact me next. If she didn’t get in touch, then no loss. If she did, I’d see if she continues to be that self-centred and inconsiderate–if so, I would end the friendship then.
Life is just too short to waste time with people like that.
Ella- You did the right thing by telling her no. Only you know which choice is best for you. It’s a good opportunity to practice trusting yourself. 😉
Thank you all for responding to my comments. I’m so appreciative. This site is a God’s send. I come here to look for advice and how to carry on. I need to get back to the person I was before him. He told me that I deserve to be happy. I WAS happy and I do feel that he was being selfish. He told me all the time how much he loved me, how thankful he was to have me in his life (one week before he pulled the proverbial rug out from under me), and that he was happy. I don’t like the fact that he had control over everything. Thank you all for your insight. It helps.
Ethelrida.
I guess if that was your experience. Not really mine. I feel like in marriages people don’t work on them like they used to because divorce is so accepted. I could see how a marriage that’s miserable would be like a prison back then, but I guess in my family there are a lot of those committed work on it relationships that seem to be lacking in this day and age. I’m all for women having the power they have today but at the same time this is when men stopped being gentlement and women lost respect for themselves which in turn ended a lot of the chivalry you used to see in our parents era. It’s a downward spiral effect. And no I don’t need to fill a void or I would be accepting dates from the typical unavailables. I’d rather be alone and am enjoying life with my large network of friends and have a nonstop social life and enjoy every weekend. Everyone deep down wants to have a companion, it’s human nature. It’s when it’s out of desperation where you allow poor treatment and bad choices when it’s too fill a void. Definitely not where I am at all.
Diane – no, I haven’t read Men Who Can’t Love. I’m a bit anxious about reading it because I really want to figure out me and why I keep picking this type of man. I’m not sure I really want to figure out them…does that make sense? Is that the type of book it is?
Elisabeth, Natalie’s past blog posts, essays and books are great. You can do therapy, of course, if you can afford it, and if you find the right therapist who can help YOU unpack your behaviours and choices and get more insight.
But if you’re not ready to go there yet, you can get the best help imaginable from this website. I have found it a godsend, and it’s really helped to answer a lot of nagging questions about myself, my choices, my patterns, and my own emotional unavailability.
(PS I am not paid to say this! It’s really true! I was hugely trapped in delusions about my last partner, even when I was on this site, and it took ages to face the music and dance, but now I’m so glad I did.)
Elisabeth, I read it. While initially it helped when I was during the raw stage you are in, I then thought, maybe he can’t just love me? I was not someone he would consider committing to. He liked me but not loved me. All these doubts went through my mind at that point. I would rather recommend reading subject on YOU. Don’t try figuring out him. It’s useless. I spent months and months trying to figuring the whys and at some points I just gave up figuring out with time (fairly recently) and naturally my pain subsided. Pauline says that he is a free person and doesn’t have to love you back because you love him. He is free to change his feelings and go a different path. It’s a harsh reality of life. You will get there in few months up to a year. For now, just read this site and concentrate on you. Don’t investigate and look for clues for his behavior. Those types of books work as a temporary help. They don’t really answer anything. After reading that book and many similar about men’s behavior, you will still be questioning (after a period “oh yes I got it now”), whether it’s true and it’s all happened because he stopped loving me or never loved me but just strung me along until someone better for him came into the picture. I would recommend not wasting your time on those. It will in fact prolong your healing process. You will have so many “answers” that you will spend even more time thinking of different possibilities to his behavior. Read about your own healing and recovery. This blog has a plethora of articles on self-knowledge and will help your recovery.
Elisabeth, are you afraid to read this book because you’re anxious to find out that there’s something extremely horrible wrong with you? Don’t be. It’s a great, great book and it helped me realise that except of my own fear of committment, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with me. I’m much more positive now about my future relationships because I know I have a right to my wishes and desires and I’m not responsible for other people’s feelings (among other things). I’m also much more knowledgeable about the dynamics of EU relationships and mindsets of EU people. This blog, the comments and experiences of guys and gals here and this book have been most helpful.
Mephista,
No, I just don’t want to spend anymore time trying to figure him out. I’ve done so much of that during and after the relationship that I’m exhausted!!
Elisabeth, and don’t!!! I overanalyzed for 11 months. I am finally completely depleted. I don’t know and will never know exactly why. I am finally focusing on building my new life. I am glad you are not trying to figure out him. Sounds like a healthy step and attitude. Time will be your healer. Shift the focus back to you.
Elisabeth – I just started reading The Journey from Abandonment to Healing. I’ve had it for a long time and its been recommended several times to me. It talks about the psycho biological responses your body has when you go through a breakup. I wish I would have read it when I was in the depths of some of the worst responses. Some on BR say its the best healing book they’ve read.
Lynn, I read this book. Healing and soothing read. Empowering. It calms you down. Great read during the process of healing.
You could also read “He’s Scared, She’s Scared” by the same authors as “Men Who Can’t Love” (plus Nat’s material, of course!) but I found that book really excellent for being able to pinpoint these guys early, so you don’t get involved with them again. Believe it or not, you aren’t always “picking” them, they are picking YOU. You just don’t know what to look for. And you keep asking “Why? Why?” in terms of his behavior, and this really will give you insight as to why. The book talks to these types of guys, and I haven’t seen another book do that. But “He’s Scared, She’s Scared” gives more insight as to why the woman “chooses” these types of men.
Diane, I agree. “He is Scared, She is Scared,” offers you insight on you and your behavior. So the parts about “She is Scared” are insightful.
Thank you, Diane, Sofia, and Lynn.
I’m in college and I found out that this guy asked out another girl while he was hooking up with me (and trying to convince me to have sex with him, which I never did, but we did mess around). This happened a few months ago and I ended things with him last month, but I just now found out. It’s so embarrassing to me and I don’t understand what’s wrong with me. Am I not pretty enough? Am I not skinny enough? Do I need to be less talkative? Or more flirty? Why is she better than I am? Honestly, I’m torn between confronting him and telling him to go fuck himself, or even worse things, or demanding to know why I wasn’t good enough for him, when she clearly was. I feel like if I knew the reasons why I wasn’t good enough for him, I could at least try to fix them. The dumb part is, he isn’t very well liked and he’s kind of weird so I’m even more upset that someone like him didn’t think I was good enough, when I definitely have more friends and attract more interest from guys than he does from other girls. It’s so frustrating also because I understand that my obsession over being rejected is counterproductive for my emotional health and that I should try to find someone “who likes me for me,” and someone I actually like as a person. I mean, I told my friends all along that I only liked him for his face and body, and our sexual compatibility, but found him a bit off-putting as a person, and that’s still all true, but I can’t stand that he was treating me like a booty call while he asked out another girl on a proper date. I feel like a worthless, ugly whore to be honest. I feel this way even though I’ve been texting this guy who’s cute who actually seems to enjoy talking to me, and even though other cute guys have pursued relationships with me in the past few months who I turned down. I just can’t stand the humiliation and rejection of this particular guy who I don’t even like as a person. It’s ruined my confidence because I’ve already lost 20 pounds in the past 2 years, wear makeup, and become more attractive in general, and now it feels like none of it will ever be enough. How do I let go of this? Is there a way to do that? I hate this situation so much and it makes me feel like maybe it just isn’t worth it to be involved with anyone, ever, because if I can’t even move on from a douchebag like him, how could I ever recover from breaking up with someone I actually liked?? Please help if you can 🙁
You’re asking yourself wrong questions. It not “why I’m not pretty/ skinny/ blond-brunette-curly-poker straight/ interesting/ cool enough for him” you should ask yourself “is HE good enought for me”? It doesn’t seems so. Rather than obsessing over why he chose somebody else, you should congratulate yourself for not falling for this petty wannabe player and got involved with him sexually. Even if you did he’d still cheat on you and imagine how stupid you would feel then! You did absolutely the right thing so stop thinking about this nothing and go and find yourself a much better date!
Hurt and Confused,
I know it hurts, because there is nothing worse that being treated like an object! But stop beating up on yourself! Put your ego aside and remember alot of men will try to sleep with you even if they don’t want a relationship. It doesn’t mean there is something wrong with you, but it does mean that he is not the one for you. Besides you didn’t sleep with him anyway so I’m not sure why your mad! Did it ever occur to you that he probably started talking to her trying to get sex, because you wouldn’t sleep with him.
Hurt and confused… why do you want it to be about you? Its like you missed the entire point of this article! Also dont fake-date tepid men you dont even like – its hard to say who rejected who, since you’ve been fake dating a guy you tell your friends is not good enough for you, and you only like for his face and body? And now you realize that you werent ‘good enough’ for him either [not that him asking someone else out makes you not good enough but you saying he’s ugly definitely does]. I think you’ve realized where you went wrong – its bad for your emotional health to have dated a tepid guy, to have fake dated instead of really dated, to have fake friends rather than real friends, to avoid good people to pursue this strange sexual compatibility (Which without sex I dont know how you can be so sure of). You’re young and this is a great wake-up call to live with integrity and to avoid creating drama in your own life.
AND this is college hook up culture, there are few rules, so stay away from ambiguous if it makes you feel uncomfortable. It doesnt make you uncool to do so as long as you believe in yourself, stick to your guns. You made less than perfect choices and you’d rather call yourself an ugly whore (extreme much!) than just say ‘i made a mistake to go tepidly along with tepid dude when I didn’t care for him, and I bad-mouthed him to my friends, and now I feel awful that tepid dude didn’t like me because.. wait, what am I talking about?’ See the ‘ugly whore’ line saves you from really taking responsibility and making changes – whereas really taking responsibility will require you to think through this in a deep way and be honest and not depend on the opinion of others.
Lastly, stay away from him, dont look for information about him and this new girl, dont create drama around him, dont try to have the last word. Be classy. Watch an Audrey Hepburn movie and channel her. Do some journaling so you can figure it out. Its taken me about 40 pages to work through my feelings about my recent tepid dude.
Thanks for responding, to all of you. I appreciate it. Reading your responses has helped. I have a really hard time confronting rejection (obviously) and I sometimes stick my head in the sand and refuse to listen to reason, so reading your replies made this easier for me.
Suki, to clarify, I don’t date guys who I’m not into, ever. I’ve gone out on dates this past semester, but if I can tell I’m not into someone, I cut it off before we become a couple, because I think it’s really unfair to date someone that I’m not into. To clarify, I never “dated” the guy who asked out another girl (who you call the “tepid” guy although that’s not really the word I’d use for him). Honestly, I didn’t think he was interested in DATING me, only in fucking me, and I think I convinced myself that I would be okay as long as I set the boundary of “we can hook up except I won’t fuck you”…but then I find out that the emphasis isn’t on “dating;” it’s that he wasn’t interested in dating ME. The implication is that she is in some way superior to me – like I have what it takes to be fuckable, but I’m not actually enjoyable to spend time with or something. So that’s what bothers me, because my personality is pretty outgoing, friendly, goofy and talkative, but sometimes, I still wish that I was, I don’t know, different, like quieter or more feminine or sexier or just more “normal.” And then I also wonder if he even ever found me sexually attractive or if he was just lying to me and only ever thought of me as a warm hole. I was not that attractive in high school so that also has resurrected all of these insecurities, which ironically I in retrospect was probably trying to compensate for by hooking up with him so I could feel desirable and wanted. Also I didn’t have sex with him (sex = intercourse) but we did other stuff so that’s how I know we’re compatible in that way (he’s very dominant sexually and I find that super hot, plus he is exactly my “type” physically). And I don’t “avoid” good people because most of my friends are good people, and most of the nice guys who do pursue me I’m friends with first, but I don’t know what to do if I’m not sexually attracted to someone 🙁 Idk if you have a solution, but I haven’t found one. It’s like, obviously I’m MORE attracted to nice guys – this guy’s personality was a turnoff because I could tell he wasn’t that nice of a person from the beginning. The problem is, none of the guys who are nice and who I also find really have pursued me during college, nor have responded to me pursuing them, only other guys who I just don’t really have strong enough feelings for to actually become involved with.
Blegh. I mean, you’re right that I’ve made less than perfect choices, obviously. However, “feeling like a whore” is ABOUT those choices as much as it’s about what he did. What I mean is that I feel like I behaved in a very humiliating way considering that he clearly never gave a fuck about me, and being involved with people who don’t respect me DOES make me feel like a whore because at some level I recognize that it’s my own fault.
Ugh. I guess I just need to let go. 🙁 And grow up. I’m only 19 so at least I have time to learn. I don’t have a ton of confidence, but I’ll try.
Hurt and Confused- It sounds like your ego is getting the best of you. You used him just as he used you. What did you expect from a use/use set-up? Now you know that casual isn’t your bag, don’t do it again. Give yourself a little time before jumping into bed with somebody else. You’re young; give yourself time to figure out you and what you want in a partner.
Hurt and Confused – Sorry, missed the part where you said you didn’t have intercourse with him. You still played around the fire and got burned. Learn your lesson. No more lying to yourself, lying to your friends and agreeing to casual when you’re not casual. It’s ok, Hurt and Confused. Everybody’s had a “Whoops…OUCH! Well, I won’t do that again…” moment (or two). 😉
Thanks Nat for this timely piece.
Mid last month I went out on a first date with a guy who has been asking me out for almost a year and a half.He showed me pictures of his exes during the date..which was weird coz he also kissed me and kept talking about the future.I told him he was moving too fast for me and we should slow down and get to know each other better before getting into any relationship.Long story short he stopped talking to me completely after that date that I was almost convinced I imagined it.
I was so upset and kept asking myself what I did to change his attitude towards me and wondering if I should have just said yes and maybe things would be different.I now know I am not that powerful to change a nice guy into such a complete asshole.Nice guy was an act and the real him came out eventually.
kay – he likes the chase. and a huge red flag – 1. he still has pictures of his exes. 2. he was showing you on a first date. No need to even question yourself. He is a douche. RUN.
Met a guy once whose idea of a first date was to tell me all about his dead, pregnant fiancee.
It sounded like a very well-worn tale, and I daresay it had been quite effective for scoring pity sex in the past.
Not with me, though. Euw.
So much for true grit and character Nat ? I think I have just been in a long game of ‘snakes and ladders’, got almost to the top rung of the ladder and slithered down the snake.
I have posted a couple of times about this and got great advice which I heeded and then…..It’s been a year now since we broke up, since he broke up with me and not very elegantly. I spent a lot of time getting over that and getting back on track again, and no contact from me whatsoever, not even one drunken text ? It was only when he messaged me in September of this year that I realized what had happened. He had gone back to his ex girlfriend but it didn’t work out and he wanted to meet me for a coffee and I posted about this and lots of ladies replied and said not to do that so I didn’t – thanks!.
And now for the snakes and ladders bit. He sent me a message again, same request, he would be in my town and could we meet up. This time I said OK. He arrived at my place and to be honest it was all very normal, we chatted some (nothing about his ex thankfully) went out to dinner had a walk around and I was prepared to leave it like that, I mean he would pick up his car which was parked near my place and drive back to his parents’ place where he was staying. As we arrived, he asked if he could come up for a cup of coffee. So we sat down with our cups of coffee and then he launched…’there is something I would like to say, and what he said was this:, ‘I do not want a relationship right now and I am telling you this as I don’t want to hurt you’. That threw me for six, I think I had understood that a long time ago. I told him that it was fine by me and I had no expectations (the truth). He had come all the way, 500 miles, just to tell me that, WTH. He said that he still desired me but he said that he knew that it would be all wrong after what he had just said (maybe showing a bit of character after all). So we left it at that apart from a few hugs and kisses exchanged Christmas presents., hugged me goodbye and for the first time, I could actually feel real tenderness from him. The next day, he sent me a text as he was setting off on his journey back to let me know what a great evening he had and how much he had enjoyed the time he spent with me and get this, he gave me his new home address, the long distance one!. Not an invite just the address, the mind boggles sometimes. From our meeting there were things that dawned on me that I had never thought about before like he had five different jobs in four years and had changed home address five times in the same period. I am thinking instability here and I am thinking that’s why he likes being in contact with me because I probably feel like a comfort zone and a safe haven but this isn’t good enough for me.
And why then did I feel so bad the next day and so horribly vulnerable? No boundaries were crossed and I cannot say his behavior was inappropriate. If ever I wasnt sure, I am sure now that I do not want any sort of relationship with this guy. I do believe that in coming back he was trying to set things right and maybe even get closure for himself. Next day and the day after the internal dialogue started. Why did I let him come back just to stir things up again, feelings I thought had gone away and I gave him the chance to reject me again. Why hadn’t I just said ‘no, not available this weekend’ and lots more whys and whys and all that stuff over and over again in my head. It’s not all bad as I am now even more determined that this is the end and I will definitely not be getting in touch or replying in any shape or form. I want to clear the slate for good and I do not want him to have a foothold in my life or even be friends or feel as he can contact me when he wishes. I spent two years with him with all his hot and cold behavior because he wasn’t over the ex, another year getting over so now time to focus on me, as Natalie would say. I am sorry if I rambled on a bit and went just a tad off-topic, If anybody has any thoughts on this, would love to hear.
Annabelle,
It happens like that sometimes. Don’t beat yourself up your only human. Sometimes we see them and hope they will change or be different, but then we realize they are the same selfish bastards when we dealt with them.
The best thing you can do is accept it as closure and don’t engage with him anymore. It sounds like he used you for an ego stroke so he could feel better about himself for breaking up with you and going with the ex and because that didn’t work out he wanted to use you as the fallback girl.
Had it happen to me and I realized that’s the only reason he came back when he wasn’t happy with the new supply! But I also realized that I no longer desired him and his split personalities anymore. So I no longer called him or met up with him. I just dropped off the face of the earth. He didn’t deserve my time.
I agree with Stephanie. A lot of these men apologize, try to make themselves look like they have empathy, but they don’t. They do it for themselves. Whether it’s to get an ego stroke and/or to be able to tell/show the world, “hey, look at me! I’m not such a bad guy after all.” BS. In their eyes, it’s all about “me, me, me”.
Some never apologize because they don’t think there is anything to apologize for. I waited for 10 months for my ex to apologize for the hurt I had gone through. Now I have finally realized I will never get it. I have accepted that he doesn’t even think he did anything wrong. That he made the right choices and there is no regret or sorry feeling for another human’s being hurt by his actions. So therefore and naturally there will be never an apology. I don’t know what feels worse: to receive an apology or never at all. Probably the former if it is not sincere. I have let him go and forgiven without his apology. I did need that validation though for a long time up until now. I feel free. No apology needed.
Stephanie, many thanks for taking the time to reply and of course you are right, the ego stroke, a complete dork head and it struck me just how self centered he is…and lacking in empathy. I need to take a leaf out of his book 🙂 Anyway, no major harm done, at least I don’t have to bump into him, cringe. I really need to be careful in future who I give my time too. It will be THE last time. You can stick a fork in me, I am done !
Cheers
Kay,
You dodged a bullet! He did you a favor by walking away. Any man that would show you pictures of his exes on a date is a jerk and weirdo. I think he was probably looking for just sex and when you hit him with I want to slow things down and get to know you, that was his red flag to leave because he didn’t want that! Flush!
Thank you all for your comments. It’s reassuring to hear other perspectives that confirm I’m not being a pain in the ass on this. The friend in question is someone I already keep at arms length because of her past behaviour so the next natural step will probably be fade out. I’m not going to do anything, just wait and see how it plays out.
I’m relieved at having made a decision and accept the outcome whatever it is. Thanks again for your input. It has taken me half a lifetime to learn how to honour my feelings instead of rushing to patch things up.
Hi,
Would appreciate any thoughts on this. I moved abroad from UK a few months ago and am finding the transition lonely sometimes – don’t speak the language very well. I met a guy on a night out with visiting friends. We all hung out, and then he and I kept in touch. We went out for dinner, he paid, out again a couple of nights later to the cinema. We kissed. Then we had dinner, and he asked how old I am. I’m 39, but everyone thinks I’m younger. He said it made no difference to him, but then completely backtracked and said a lot about how he shouldn’t have kissed me, can’t commit because of his job (international aid worker). I was initially fine with being friends, but have since realised that being kissed and then have him tell me 20 minutes later that he wished he hadn’t, isn’t ok with me. We’ve met up since, and had a great time. last night, we were arranging via email to meet this evening, and then he just didn’t reply to an email. Basically, I sent an email today saying ‘being treated like this twice isn’t want ok with me’ – no reply. Have I overreacted? I don’t think so, but wonder if my perspective is lopsided because I know so few people here. I’m just trying to stick up for myself. Thanks for any thoughts you may have.
Not sure if you’re going to see this, but I would completely reverse with this one (how could he think it would be okay to kiss you and then say that he regretted it?) Majorly odd, in my opinion.
Also be careful of hooking up if you are aware that you feel lonely – the wrong kind of guy will sense it, move on in even if he doesn’t care for you very much and then use you.
It happened to me and I’m sure others here can say the same.
All in all, this guy sounds like a bad egg.
shyner, you are too strong of a woman to get in with silly guy. aid worker sounds a great excuse for people that see anything long term as far too constraining, that see real intimacy as far too constraining. you are alone in a new country. you’ll have to work a bit harder at being your own strong person otherwise you’ll too easily put up with bad behavior and second guess. guess what? even if he was a total gentleman, its your right to say ‘meh, not interesting enough for me. goddamn it i’m 39, I dont need silly guys that dont even know how to take something forward’.
Casual doesnt mean tepid and silly boys – it means something that works for you on your terms with someone fun and interesting for some short term relationship and friendship and hanging out. But read also Natalie’s ‘woman that think and talk too much’ [in my opinion there is no point getting all dramatic and accusing in texts with men you are not in a serious relationship with – even then, dont bother with dramatic, just tell them shape up].
if you like him, tell him ‘i’m new here and i’m looking for a serious relationship. i think we’re better off as friends.’ [first, if there is any chance for you this will make him step up if he is interested. but remember this is not a game. so if he doesnt step up, then no more kissing or making out or anything. just back off. when you see him be friendly only, no mixed signals and you’ll have to stay firm otherwise it will mess with your mind].
also, join a class, look for meet ups, go to church if you’re religious, look for expat groups, take a language class, get a dog, start a daily running route etc.
Shyner, don’t doubt yourself for a second. You have healthy boundaries and self-esteem. Don’t think about him anymore. Flush.
He said upfront he doesn’t want a commitment, so if you continue with him, prepare yourself for much, much more trouble because it sounds like that is what you want. It was just, what, one or two dates, one kiss? He doesn’t owe you anything at this point. But if I were you I’d run because it’s pretty clear already you want way more than he’s prepared to give.
Just to clarify – he sent one email saying ‘I should be around, what shall we do?’, I suggested a bar and a time, and he never replied – disappeared!
“I should be around” and by email. No certainty and lazy communication. And disappeared. RUN.
Hi Shyner,
I’d suggest cutting this guy out, he’s messing you around. He’s told you he’s not available; and no, you’re not over-reacting at all. Flush. Gravitate towards activities that interest you and you won’t be long making new friends.
Thanks for your thoughts – you’ve really helped and reading then at the start of a new day is perfect timing. I ‘be remembered other stuff he said, (’39? That’s how old I was going to let you think I am'(he’s younger)). Also, I’m feeling good about admitting that I’d like to be in a relationship, and now I really understand that I need to join some groups here! I think I was giving myself too hard a time, but saying something to him about his behaviour was definitely pointless.
Hey I love this post.I haven’t been on the site in quite sometime commenting but I continue to read every post. I have been trying to work on myself and I live by baggage reclaim to the fullest.Nat I want to say thank you and to everyone that helped me on my what was a very miserable journey. TO now be free of the guy 100% and an unexpected love which I plan to take things really slow and follow the information that I’ve got from Nats post and from my life in general.I treated myself like crapp some embarrassing things I allows to happen to myself dealing with some who wasn’t capable of l loving me or anyone for that matter. I am free I released myself from him moved and didn’t look back.He did make seven attempts but I didn’t play into the game. I WON I WON my life back and love for myself when I was final able to make the necessary moves to move on thks Nat and all the ladies on this site that encouraged me.
If you exist, you matter enough to treat yourself with love, care, trust, and respect.