Recently, many of the emails and comments I’ve received have an element of the author being bewildered by the outrageousness of their romantic partners. Like a lot of things in life, we measure other people’s behaviour on our own. Often, it can make little sense to us how someone could even think to ask or attempt to do certain things with us.
‘I don’t get it! Why did he think he could even ask me to do that?! What type of woman does he think I am?!’
The more stories I hear, the more I’m convinced of what I call The Outrageous Principle:
When someone chances it and asks/does the most ridiculous thing to test what they can get away with. In a dating world that encourages little or no boundaries, they take a risk that often pays off.
People who embody The Outrageous Principle use your reaction to their behaviour to deduce whether you’re the type of person that they can get away with flouting boundaries.
Even if they’ve lured you into believing there are no repercussions for going along with their action, some will judge you. They’ll have the brass neck to use your acceptance or lack of boundaried response to their outrageous behaviour to not only write you off as a serious prospect for a relationship but also to give themselves carte blanche to mistreat you. I know, I know. Make it make sense!
They weigh up the risk versus reward. They figure that if they get what they want out of things, they’re in a win-win situation, even though it’s at the expense of your feelings or even your self-esteem.
How do they know they can do this with you?
They don’t necessarily pick up a signal from you prior to their doing it. That said, if they’re practised at drawing in people and pulling their malarkey, they’ll have a fair idea of who’s likely to be receptive. If they’ve given off early-warning signs (red flags/code amber and red behaviour) and you’ve missed them, this also signals your potential receptiveness.
One of the most widespread examples of The Outrageous Principle is when certain men push for sexual activity within the first few dates. Then, after ‘hitting it’, they deduce that you’re too ‘easy’ and ‘not wifey material’.
We can often be indignant that they’ve even pushed the issue in the first place. What it is about us that let them think they could ask about having sex or even feel us up? We don’t recognise that it’s not about us per se. No, they’re just getting the measure of us. They’re working out how much we respect ourselves.
Some women have found themselves going against their instincts (that recognition that it’s outrageous) and going along for the proverbial ride. They get drawn in by the perceived attraction and connection.
The worst offenders of this are the ones that pursue you. They drop all the lines on you, badger you for sex and Future Fake. They pretend you’re both on the same page and how you’re going to move forward into a mutually pleasurable relationship, only to go cold on you or gradually withdraw.
Another super commen example is people who bust your boundaries by blowing hot and cold and managing down your expectations.
For some folks, it’s the simple fact that you give them the time of day in spite of their having some rather dubious qualities. For others, it’s that once they reveal the true nature of their behaviour, our perception of them doesn’t shift. We ‘re not turned off. Instead, the worse they behave, there more we increase our pursuit and people pleasing .
The shocking thing about The Outrageous Principle is that, yes, the behaviour is outrageous, but once it becomes a regular thing, we normalise it. The offender then expects to be allowed to continue as is, even if we suddenly realise it doesn’t work for us.
Other examples (and these are all real ones I’ve been mailed about) include…
- The guy that keeps calling after you’ve broken it off even though he hasn’t changed.
- The guy that keeps calling even though he has a wife and kids and another woman on the side.
- The guy who disappears for months at a time and then reappears for a grope and a chat. And then disappears again.
- The woman that tells a whole heap of lies to get her ex’s attention. Then, she admits they were lies and that she’s not leaving her husband.
- The guy who borrowed money, left her for someone else, and then tried to slink back in. And, of course, he wants money again.
- The guy that started off with dates, to asking to meet up late at night. Then it was no more dates and just meeting up late at night for a booty call.
- The guy with several women on the go. The harem know about it and fight and vy for his attention.
- The woman who cheated, lied about it, and then when eventually caught out, blamed the cheating on him rather than apologise.
- The guy who’s drip-feeding lies about his nocturnal activities for the past year. Every month brings new revelations.
People who tend to do things on their terms and have little respect for your boundaries like to make things easy for themselves.
While some people will start small and break you in with smaller misdemeanours, others with little pride and scant regard for your feelings will go for bust.
If you react badly but are still there, they may fuss around you and appear apologetic. However, they’ll still deduce that because you’re still there, they know they can get away with a lot. This type of person may just opt to be more covert about it in the future. In effect, they let you think they’re respecting boundaries while passive-aggressively rebelling behind your back.
The bigger risk takers who get high off uncertainty, ambiguity and the chase will actually keep pushing the boundaries. They’re never quite happy with just how much they’re getting away with and want ‘more’.
You’ll find that people who don’t respect your boundaries will rarely just stop at one thing. They’ll cross and tap-dance all over them.
If someone discovers that there are very few ‘barriers to entry’ because there are no real consequences to their boundary-busting behaviour, they see it as your problm, not theirs. In spite of their being wrong, they know your acceptance and compliance are signs of boundary and self-esteem issues. You want and need the validation of someone like them even though they add little or no value to the relationship. You hold on despite their depleting of your self-esteem resources.
So how do you deal with people like this?
It’s the fundamentals, as usual, which are having and knowing your boundaries. Register the outrageous behaviour, process it, and take decisive action as a result.
There are times when you can see shades of grey. Still, when someone blatantly crosses your boundaries with inappropriate, disrespectful and abusive actions, the answer isn’t to accept it. Nor is it to analyse the crap out of their behaviour, wondering what you did to cause it or how you can fix them. The answer is consequences, the only real language they understand.
Don’t accept outrageous behaviour in any way, shape, or form. When you normalise bad behaviour, you not only become distanced from yourself and your values, needs, and desires, but you end up in an outrageous relationship… and not for good reasons!
Your thoughts?
Ready to reclaim yourself from the cycle of people pleasing and any patterns that reinforce feelings of low self-worth? My new book, The Joy of Saying No: A Simple Plan to Stop People Pleasing, Reclaim Boundaries, and Say Yes to the Life You Want (HarperCollins/Harper Horizon), is out now.
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“Don’t normalize bad behavior.” I don’t think I could have said it any better. Really a great piece! It’s true that when you meet someone that crosses one of your boundaries will continue to do so unless you stop them, often just to test you. I can’t stand people of this ilk.
brilliant post, i have recently gotten out of a relationship like this for the FINAL time and this is exactly what he was doing. get rid of these guys — they have no respect for you, so you shouldn’t have any for them!
“the answer is not to accept it or to analyse the crap out of their behaviour wondering what you did to cause it or how you can fix them; it’s to teach them with consequences, the only real language they understand.”
This is SO something I needed to hear!** I’m** the one who’s always trying to analyze myself – or cutting them slack about their crappy behavior because I’m trying to see past it, into their “issues.” How often do I even *consider* utilizing some kind of consequence? Hardly ever! Because I’m afraid of “losing them.” Totally screwed up and something I really want to change.
I can think of one outrageous “red flag” -a guy who is so cheap he will eat a whole meal infront of you without offering any, and then expects you to put in the $2 for the tea you ordered and drank while he was eating.
Yes, been there and done this dance for too long. I now dump people immediately if they don’t make me happy, talk to me or treat me with respect. I have shocked many an old friend by ending our “friendships” once it becomes apparent that they don’t care about my feeling and/or boundaries. I was a real softie until a “friend” did me so dirty that she almost wrecked my life with her lies and nonsensical behavior. I think this article is excellent at shining a light on how we can become used to bad behavior, normalizing it, etc. I am taking your words as the ultimate support for what I have had to realize on my own, the hard way (being hurt again and again)
Ditto PM…….I too have recently gotten out of one of these “relationships” for the FINAL time. Why is it so easy to have 20/20 vision in hindsight?
“The Outrageous Principle is when guys push for sexual activity within the first few dates and then, after ‘hitting it’, deduce that you’re too ‘easy’ and not wifey material.” My assclown actually was mortified that I asked to meet one of his friends, I didn’t think it such an odd request after 2 1/2 years of being together, I just wanted to go with him to meet his friend. His reply was “that is so inappropriate, he is a good Christian man and a deacon of his church” there you have it, once a whore always a whore. That was the last day I have spoken to him, I do have a little pride left.
My other favorite part of this article is the don’t analyze part. I have actually been in counseling to figure out how I could involve myself with someone like my ex and we sit and analyze him and I finally said F*CK him, I do not care what his motives were or what happened in his childhood to make him so evil, I just want to fix me and go forward to be happy with myself.
The thing I hate the most is that I feel something is wrong with me, I good friend of mine told me there is nothing wrong with you sweetheart, he saw a generous spirit and figured out how to take advantage. I do know though that people do to you only what you will allow.
Healing is tough but I am getting through it and beginning to appreciate the joy in my life once more. Best of luck to all you wonderful women in tough situations.
M
Natalie, thank you so much for the last two posts 🙂 I love the compassion you are showing us. I wish for all of us, we can find it for ourselves too. I know I have to be kinder to myself and like wandering Ivy stop the insanity of cutting them slack and normalizing bad behaviour. The last two nights I’ve had horrid dreams..I guess trying to work it out in my sleep.. him with her, me standing by with no power watching them love each other to wake with such sorrow in my heart. Then last night, same kind of dream and I woke up with sorrow, then it turned to anger, I went back into my dream telling myself, I have to stop this script in my dreams as well!! I have to stand-up for myself in my dream. I couldn’t muster it, but then the dream changed and there he was alone asking me to be with him again. In my dream I said, no I can’t ever trust you again. I said my truth in the dream without anger and then he was gone. I really hope I have managed to go over some kind of hurdle with this internal work. It’s such a shame, but a necessary lesson if we are going to find our way through this to being stronger women making better choices.
I’m reading the No contact book and loving it!! Thank you. Have been mad busy with work, but now have some down time to settle in to finish it. Thank you. Deep work and I know the rewards on the other side will be worth it when I get there. xxx
It’s amazing what happens when you are in tune with yourself. I recently met someone and by the 2nd date he was talking about sleeping together (not). That wasn’t the first red flag, there were many. Because of the work I’ve done on myself and months and months of reading this post, I dropped him very quickly. Never returned his final text message. I’m convinced he saw a smart, strong, and together woman and knew his chances of bullshi**ing me were zero. Thanks Natalie for your words of wisdom and truth!!
Brilliant brilliant, Natalie, I slowely start to think you can read my mind, cause you daily post about the topic that occupied my mind…exactly what I thought about.
They slip over your boundaries, and misinterprete your loving kindness and compassion as having no boundaries. These are people who only understand one language, this is showing them boundaries through action, not through words. Sad but true.
Brilliant again !!! You’re my EUM/fallack girl meeting – an A.A. of sorts for anyone who wants or needs to strengthen themselves emotionally and be more aware 🙂
.-= Loving Annie´s last blog ..SAAM at The Bazaar by Jose Andres =-.
oy, have i ever wasted MUCH time doing these things. the outrageous principle is the main thing i have the hardest time wrapping my brain around. NML is right, i always relate everything back to the way i’d behave. i’m no saint, but weren’t we all told that the ‘golden rule’ is how we should all co-exist? and i truly believe that you must put yourself in others’ shoes, take a step back and look at the situation. you don’t have to be in love with someone to treat them with decency or respect. you can do that for a complete stranger! but these men can spend months and years with women and not give two damns about us. these men seem to be missing SOULS. i realize that they don’t respect us, and the lack of respect makes them think they have free reign to abuse and use our misguided affections to their pitiful advantage. and sitting around dumbstruck wondering why or how someone could do a, b, or c is SUCH a dead end. YOU WILL NEVER KNOW THE ANSWER. even if he tries to scramble one up, it won’t be the real answer and IT WON’T SATISFY YOU. they aren’t pschoanalysts either, and sometimes they don’t even know the reasons for their idiocy so how can WE and why waste your energy trying to decipher it? NML has said many times, they will be busy going about their business while we lay crushed and brokenhearted. so RUN and don’t look back!!
We really do teach people how to treat us and if we let them walk all over us we become door mats.
What great timing for this post. I just got a return email from a friend – not someone I was considering dating but just a friend. We had planned to meet a couple of weeks ago – I went, he didn’t. It was storming, one of the worst days of the winter so far. A couple of days later he sends me an email saying he hoped I wasn’t too mad and that he had found out on the Friday (we were meeting Saturday afternoon) that the thing he thought he had in the morning was actually in the afternoon at the same time we were meeting. Never apologized for not telling me ahead of time and then asked to meet up again.
This past week, got another email asking to meet up again. Instead of letting him off the hook, and saying I was too busy, I sent him an honest email setting out how upset I had been and how he had wasted my time and most importantly, showed no consideration for me on a very bad weather day. His response was to tell me how he was going through a really bad time and my email was really hurtful and too harsh for the situation.
I sat there reeling that this was the reaction and then found this posting – perfect! What a great reminder that this has been a constant frustration trying to do anything with this person and while I can understand that people go through a rough time, enough was enough. Thanks for a great post.
Fantastic post as usual and so timely! Just checked my email and received a message from a friend – not a romantic interest but still. We were supposed to meet a couple of weeks ago – it ended up being the day of one of the worst storms this winter in our area. He never showed – then he sent a message two days later saying that he had been mixed up, and found out on Friday (we were meeting on Saturday afternoon) that he thing he thought was in the morning, and that we were meeting after, was actually at the time we were meeting. No apology for not telling me ahead of time so I didn’t waste my time and energy (we ended up with tons of snow and I got stuck twice). Asked to meet up again which I said nothing to. Just this past week he asked to meet up again and I felt that I owed him more than just a “I’m really busy right now” type of answer and told him the honest truth about how he had wasted my time, shown no respect for me and how I was dissapointed in how he failed to let me know ahead of time that he wasn’t able to make it when he clearly knew that he wouldn’t. Just read his reply – still no real apology but lots of recriminations against me – how could I say such mean things, he’s going through lots of stuff right now and he’s messed up, how I should understand, etc. Normally I would start feeling guilty but not this time – as NML posted once before, we teach people how to treat us by allowing certain behaviours and quite frankly, while I feel bad if he is truly going through a rough time, it still is not acceptable to treat someone like that, or more importantly, not acceptable to treat me like that.
It feels good to finally be able to break away from the guilt of allowing people to treat me badly – thanks for the post!
OMG! I recognise most of this behaviour from my AC. I normalised the bad behaviour too. It seems so ridiculous that I put up with it for so long and somehow kept seeing the good in him.
The longer I NC and the more of this advice I read the more I heal and feel better about myself. The rose tinted glasses are off and I see it for what it was.
Natalie, it’s like you’re a mind reader! I just experienced this and had to cut another guy off at the knees. ;^)
I met him online and he clainmed to love God and be so spiritual. Claimed that he didn’t lie and didn’t cheat and didn’t play games. Maybe I should have run at that point. He asks me for my number and we played phone tag for like three days. Flag 1. Next, he asked if we could meet at my church. I asked if he was usually a pretty prompt person he said yes. He was suppose to be there at 11am. texted me at 11:03 saying that the cops had stopped him. Didn’t make it to the church until 12 (after the offering). Flag 2. We went out to breakfast afterwards and I wish I hadn’t but I was hungry. We had a good conversation. I talked about teaching my son to be a man of his word and how it builds character. I was inadvertently hinting at him that integrity is very important to me and I also listed that in my profile. Anyways, today, which is one day after church I text just to say hi. He texted yesterday after breakfast so I felt ok with texting him today. He texted me back saying that he would love to chat later. I said I’ll be home around 9ish and he says ok. Well he did not call. Flag 3.
Three strikes and his ass is out! LOLOLOL!!
I am so happy to be able to drop them ASAP!! As soon as they show me that they are not a man of their word. When a man likes a woman he wants to impress her and will do what he says. Oh well, his loss, NOT MINE!! I have integrity. I feel so goooooodd typing this……you have no idea!!
So how do you deal with people like this? It’s the fundamentals as usual which is having and knowing your boundaries, registering the outrageous behaviour, processing it and taking decisive action as a result.
I LOVE IT!!!!! THESE GUYS ARE OUTRAGEOUS AND OUT OF MY LIFE! NEXT!!! 🙂
Thank you for this great article !! I am reading your website for quite some time and it helped me a great deal to get over a first class Assclown and I have learned a lot from your site.
I do have a request, do you think you could do an article about the ingredients of a normal and happy relationship ? i do know a lot about how it shouldn’t be, but what exactly makes a happy one ? Is it he brings flowers, calls, takes me out for dinner etc ?
After reading a lot of the comments and also on your forum, I get the impression I am not alone and some people really have lost the plot on how it should be with a guy.
Thank you very much and all the best to all of you.
I know it is minor, but when my guy of three dates waited 9 days and then send some bullsh&T text, I knew my boundaries were starting to be violated, and I saw it has a huge red flag. Not of EUM, but of coming assclownery. So while I was not rude, and did not respond immediately, I simply changed the dynamic, by waiting to contact him (make him wait) and I did not ask any questions because I was no longer tied to making sure we had a real interaction. When he further tested with a call with no message, it went unanswered. And on NYE, when he ignored me, I am just happy all I did was acknowledge him, but no chase etc. I have never been in contact since, and our mutual friend bitched him out for being a jackass. While that was embarrassing, at least he will leave me alone, and I still remain my cool ass self ;-)!
So true. I especially agree with the analyzing him and perceiving yourself as the Bad Guy for not liking his appaling behaviour. The moral – if someone takes you away from yourself and who you are and what you want – dump them. Many years ago I was told to only have people in your life if they are good for you, advice I ignored until recently. The terrible effects on my life after walking away from living with an abusive man (an expert in the Outrageous Principle) meant my friends and family had a lot of work to do in supporting me and I remembered that advice. It goes for ‘friends’ and family as much as lovers and spouses. The line between harmony and conflict is wider than you think, and reasonable people will always be prepared to walk it with you; reasonable people will always find a way to negotiate without compromising you or them. If they won’t, get out. Thanks again, NML..
Why are there SO many men like this all over the world? I’m serious. Have they always existed in large numbers and just not been ‘outed’? Or are they a more modern phenomenon?
Very timely I cut off contact at the end of November after ringing him on a Friday night (the night he usually disappears/ shags the other woman) and she answered his phone!! I woke up to find he hadnt even tried to ring/ text contact so I just changed my number and havnt heard since. Oh appart from a birthday card in the post on 18th December with his mobile number and just the words ‘Happy Birthday’. Did he think I was going to break contact at his feeble attempt to try and get me to or did he think ‘Oh she must have lost my number I will remind her’? I changed my number to get away from you you FOOL!!!!! Sometimes ladies this is the only way as you will obsess about it when you dont know either way of they have tried to contact you eventually stop obsessing.
He used to test how far he could get away with things by asking me something or calling me a nasty name and when my reaction was angry he used to say ‘ I am only joking, you can’t even take a joke’. This was after he said can you get your blonde friend and ask if she wants a threesome! Oh the red flags were always there. But I like many other women chose to ignore them until we break it off and give ourselves time to reflect on all the things they did that pushed and even broke our boundaries.
He is now seeing/ shagging/ texting a woman who I was in the same company as on Boxing Day. She even had the audacity to lie to me and tell me she hadnt text him when I could see her furiously texting away whilst I was in her company. I was also told by her friend that she was texting. By the way this is after warning her of the other women he keeps in his life for a shag. But now I look and think she is very sad waiting for him to grace her with his main method of communication TEXTING! Oh just wait for the blowing cold or the Friday and Saturday nights she can’t get hold of him because he is with his weekend girl! hahahahahaha
This is two years of this by the way that has totally left me in utter horror as to why I lowered my standards to go out with him.
This sad woman has not headed my warning her problem not mine but if I could write to her this is what I would say:
Oh Dear Fiona (new victim),
Do you realise this is what you will have with him:
1. Texting as a mains means of communication or ringing and putting the phone down for you to ring him back (greedy/ lazy/ tight)
2. Being one of many woman he flits between for a shag/ ego stroke or whatever else you can use someone for
3. Stalking his ex who he is obsessed with and lent £20,000 ( he was stalking her when I got with him in Set 2007 and also went to Jail for 5 months for this) gasp in disbelief yes I stayed with him whilst he was in prison!!
4. putting his friends at the very centre of everything he does and see’s them most nights while you will be put on the back burner should any plans with his friends be cancelled
5. Lives with his mother (he is 41 years old) who is dying of bowel cancer and runs around after him like someone not right. And he is quite happy with this
6. Leaves his socks on in bed and when having sex! uurrrrrgggghhh I know. Scratches his ball whilst in bed, smells of BO, hardly gets a wash oh and Fiona in all the times he slept at my house I never once saw him brush his teeth!
7. Had a drink threw over me when I informed the other woman of his antics and she questioned him about what he has been doing!!!
8. pick him up from wherever and drop him off in the morning! Yes ladies he doesn’t drive either! he defo a keeper this one!!!
9. Neglets the 11 year son he has and rarely sees or interacts with him despite him live just across the road!!! Still occasionally shags the mother of his son even though she split with him 7 year ago and went back to an ex who used to beat the s**t out of her rather than suffer anymore emotional unavailabilty from this man
10. Demands blow jobs yet never reciprocates the act to the lady! (He may have changed but I doubt it)
Need I go on poor woman???? Just a few of the long list of shitty things he has done to me or I have found out about!
This man said I was the one with the problem and was a ‘moaner’ in his words! I think I had everyright to moan.
And he tests my boundaries by gauging my reacting if its horrified or angry dismisses it by saying’ it was a joke’. Well fella I aint laughing so jog on!
Sorry if its long!
Kudos to your friend for getting around to bitching him out. I hope you had the high of seeing it happen in front of you!
Alice. I agree some idea of what a good relationship is like would be useful, as being the next in line after an AC/EUM(W) is as hard for the ‘new’ one as it is for the harmed one. I found it difficult to trust my judgement as well as my fella’s actions. Nevertheless, through him I have learned to regain and hold on to my integrity, and much as it pains me to say a man has helped me rebuild, I have to be honest and say it was a man who broke me down. My now-husband was almost as shocked and angry as I am by my ex’s behaviour and has been very patient and understanding if I was visited by ghosts. I would say that if he says it, does it, means it then he’s likely to be a good ‘un. If he is not afraid to love you and show it, to tell the world and you, if he is rooting for you and does all he can to back you, then he’s for real. Flowers? Nah. Cards, chocolates? Anyone can do them. Going out to dinner is all very well (we were out last night, in fact) but it really does take more than that. He has to make some effort, for God’s sake, more so when you have the kind of history we have on this site. Above all, I would say that there is, in all of us, a little inner voice that I reckon we choose to ignore and, when it all explodes in our face, suddenly hear. The one that says “WTF? Am I imagining this? Am I going mad here? Who is this guy?”. If that voice is not screaming to be heard, then he’s probably worth a go.
The best lesson I’ve learned so far is to give up quick. Years I spent with men trying to make something out of nothing. The discussions and fights and analyzing to no avail. It doesn’t really matter why you’re not getting what you need from a relationship or how good it could be if…If it doesn’t work in the early stages, there’s not much hope of longevity through the real tests of time. I can remember thinking what a lovely life we could have if he would just get it. You just can’t have a relationship with someone’s potential. Once i realized I would rather be alone than be bogged down in the tension and frustration of a bad relationship, it was much easier to set limits and stick to them.
.-= Terry´s last blog ..Chicken Tenders You Can Make Tonight =-.
VERY timely post as usual! Every post speaks to me like revelations! Please keep writting!
why do I have a picture of a lady next to my comment?
I have amended the email address that you used which was different to the one in the subsequent comment. The previous email address has been registered to gravatar by someone…
@natthecat.
the 3some part and “I am only joking, you can’t even take a joke’”
Sounds way too familiar I thought we had dated the same guy!
except he is in his late 20’s. What a Moron!!!
He once suggested that and the first time I ignored it. the second time I came up with a good response: “Only if you introduce me to 2 of your hottest coworkers” . You can pick 2 random girls and I go with the 2 hotties.
He was perplexed at my answer, so he said: “No, you and another girl” I said: I am not interested in that because I am not lesb. I’m only interested in 2 men.
It hit him because He then changed the subject hahahaha!! It felt good doing that to him.
NML, I have purchased your book about EUM and TFG. It is amazing reading and I am telling all my friends about it. I think this should be required coursework for all high school girls. I have just left a very long marriage with a EUM. He was also sexually anorexic which seriously damaged my self-esteem and self-confidence. I am trying to rebuild myself and your book is a great help to see my patterns of getting involved with EUM. I have a new suitor who is pursuing me very hard but thanks to your book I can size up the warning signs in advance and study what is happening before I get too involved. Thank you for discussing boundaries, as that is where I need a lot of work. NML, I would like to see the book compare a healthy EAM vs. the EUM throughout so we can see what it is supposed to look like. Thank you so much for your work!
“The worst offenders of this, are the ones that pursue you, drop all the lines on you, badger you for sex and fake a future with you, pretending that you’re both on the same page and how you’re going to move forward into a mutually pleasurable relationship, only for them to go cold on you or gradually withdraw.”
EXACTLY what happened. Not only did I not pursue him in the beginning – he came after me blowin hot at a very vulnerable time – took all the information he knew about me used it against me – horrible pick up lines I would slap someone for saying to me today. He was a predator – I was prey. Not anymore – thanx to this site confirming for me what I already suspected. I am not alone – I am enough for me and that’s good enough for anyone who shares my values and beliefs. If they don’t – NEXT!
I second Jubilee’s desire to see a comparison of EAM and EUM. With no great male role-models in my life, either when I was a child and now as an adult, it is often difficult to know what are the characteristics of an emotionally available, healthy man. Thanks to NML’s book, her posts, and all of the great comments, I feel that I am well-armed to identify red flags. But, I’m sad to say that I probably never had someone treat me with real loving kindness; I only perceived it as such when they were actually out to get something from me. Thanks for all that you do.
My question is this… well some background first.
So he takes me lunch and say’s ‘he wants to take responsiblity for his actions’, then tells me in horrific detail about all the lying, the cheating, the betrayal of my our friendship, the using me, the taking me for granted, how we would never ever be together, leaving me in a complete mess for months after stripping me of my dignity, my self esteem, my trust in friendships and leaving me feeling unsafe. It has taken months of self soothing with affirmations crying my heart out, closing my door and not letting anyone in (literally).
My question to anyone please!!?? How is that taking responsibility for his actions? Is’nt this just downloading his guilt??
He cried as he said..I decied to use you for sex because I was giving you business advise, I decided you could pay me for it. I am so devastated. while he was telling me his ‘truth’ he said’.. this feels so good, getting it out. When I said to him ‘this is not taking responsibility for you actions this is you just downloading your guilt’ He absolutely did not understand what I meant!!!!. Telling me he is a lying cheating coward and then begging for my friendship. How is this taking responsibility for anything?
I am soo confused. If someone say’s they want to take responsibility for their actions doesn’t this mean they want to try to fix something they’ve broken??
All I know is I am left to clean up his mess and that mess is me.
How can they be so careless.
NC 6 weeks. working hard to let go let go let go.
Like you Lauri…I’m sad, he treated me with love and kindness to begin with and I only percieved it as such, cause he was actually only out to get something from me.
Sorry in advance for responding to Delighted – I know this isn’t the forum.
MY EUM did the same thing with his ex, who is now my friend. He told her in detail the things that we did together (that he never did with her); discussed how much he is attracted to his former GF’s body (my friend has body issues) – all in the name of telling her the “truth”. He never would have said those things to me because he knows that those things wouldn’t push my buttons and get the same reaction. Her self-esteem took a big hit. I am convinced that he said those things to her because he wanted to put her back in her place, to punish her in some way, to place the blame for his actions squarely on her, to regain control, to actually NOT take responsibility for what he did. I read something on this site (I think) about asking yourself if you would do or say what is currently being done or said to you. For example, if the situation were reversed and you lied and cheated, how would you go about taking responsibility for what you had done? Probably in a much different way than this man did. It doesn’t sound like he would know what taking responsibility was if it bit him. This is outrageous behavior that we shouldn’t expect from anyone.
Thank you Lauri for your response, I truly appreciate it 🙂
I truly am trying to get the focus back on me and the NC is helping but very large life lesson questions keep coming up and it’s about me. How do I never ever have this kind of conversation with someone again in my life! I called him on every red flag and I think because i didn’t play the fall back girl and actually had expectations and called him on all his bad behaviours, that is why I was being punished. I was being punished for expecting good treatment!! He was sooo twisted. He said he saw me as two people…The business woman where he proffessed to ‘look after me’ and then the woman he lusted after, who he thought he could have ‘fun’ with, without any concequences. I don’t get it, I just can’t fathom it. I need to understand what happened so I can recognize it again.
thank you for you points..
this is what I can take away to meditate on form you Lauri
… he wanted to put her back in her place, to punish her in some way, to place the blame for his actions squarely on her, to regain control, to actually NOT take responsibility for what he did.
Thank you 🙂
Brilliant article Natalie,thanks a mil. Like Alice,lauri and jubilee,I would hugely appreciate something about a good,healthy relationship and how to spot an EAM.I have also never had any good male role models as all the males in my life to date have been EUMs. So for me an EAM really is a different species and I’d be fascinated about him.Some of us here are really only out of Kindergarten trying to unlearn and relearn.Thanks to you and this wonderful site, I have now become zero tolerant of EUMs and their cheap,shabby behaviour.For me it’s now one strike and I’m outa there at speed and I no longer look back or analyise.And I’m proud and delighted to be able to say that.
I’ve been involved with a man who has jerked me around on and off for 6 years.He’s a a passive agressive.I don’t know why it’s taken me so long to wake up…and why it took me so very long.
Anyway the last thing he did to me was to invite me to his place for dinner,I hadn’t seen him or his son for months.I took some food for an entree,drove over 30klm and then he tells me a friend of his is stopping by but not staying.The friend is another woman I’ve never met and she arrived with her two children and then she stayed for
dinner and the whole evening.I was furious but didn’t let on.I sent him a text expressing my disappointment at what had occured..his answer was he was sorry I felt that way as he had organised for her to stay at the last minute and he thought it would be more enjoyable for all.Yeah right sitting on a balcony with a plate on my lap was really enjoyable.I let him know what I thought of his explanation .Ho hum the jerk wont even answer his phone now.
I’m moving on and wished I had done that 5 years and eleven months ago.
She did it on text, by simply calling him out for not talking to me. But, he did make a lame excuse and then saying it did not need to be awkward. More immature behavior because he knew he did something wrong, and just like he did not man up to be civil, he did not man up that he should be saying hello in a gracious way to anyone he has ever dated. He is not a bad person, he is just very very immature. And for that, I am thankful that it is over.
I’ve just split with my EUM after a year. So, so many red flags which I ignored. I’m exhausted (there were three EUM’s before him)
* asked me to get a ‘Brazlilian’ bikini wax ‘like the porn stars’ he so admires.
* said he’d like to give me a ‘good pounding’ and ‘pummel my p**y’ (that had my friends screaming in laughter..but also outrage!!)
* admitted has been to prostitutes in his twenties (now 41)
*Kept me a secret from his estranged wife and two kids for pathetic ridiculous reasons (I still don’t know why – maybe he was still shagging her.)
*Only saw me on his terms, watched films he wanted to watch, never took me out for dinner once in a whole year
* On the rare occasions that he bought me a drink, kicked up a fuss if it cost too much. (wow, that felt great after a year of dating!!)
GAAAAAAAHHHHH!! I feel low since we split up but I just feel I had to get out. He wants us to get back together once his divorce comes through in a few months time (weird in itself) but I know he’s not going to be a changed man miraculously in a few months time. I’ve cut off all contact. Girls we are better off alone than with someone who makes us feel worthless and damages our self esteem, which he undoubtedly has.
To Chazzer
DONT EVER GO BACK to that man!!! Very similar things to what my ex EUM used to say and do he is also 41! He very very occasionally took me out for meals but I PAID! Cheated on me and also used to send me texts in the beginning saying ‘keep your P***Y sweet’! I mean what the hell does that mean? I took offense to this numerous times that in the end he didnt send it. Major red flag that told me where even on the same planet never mind being poles apart!!!!
I had 2 years of on off on off on off and now when I look back when I finished him after just 3 weeks of dating (if you can call it that) I should have left it be. It is better to be single than settle and after us ladies come out of these relationships it takes a while to heal and get our self esteem back in tact!
I am still recovering whilst he has moved onto to the next victim whilst still shagging the woman e was cheating on me with!! He is ugly aswell so I cant quite believe how he manages to get woman most probably because of his cheek!!
The only way you get one over on these men is to cut contact completely as any form of contact back to them is viewed as good to him. Whether it be nasty or nice they love it and revel in ti!! Also I have to say they don’t change or if once you take them back they will soon revert back to old and when you go back its always on reduced terms. This is because they see you as not respecting yourself so then they disrespect you even more!!!! Believe me honeslty ladies been there and done that with my last EUM horrible nasty human being!!!
Thanks so much for that, it really helps. I can’t believe how much I justified his behaviour and never told my friends/family what was really going on. I’ve cut off all contact now.
The guy before him cheated on me for 12 months with his ‘ex’, got her pregnant and they had the child all while still going out with me!!! When I suggested something untoward might be going on with his ex he said I was ‘going mental’ and imagining things.
But I have come on in leaps and bounds since reading this website (and having therapy for self esteem issues!!) For instance this month I’ve been on a course for work, and found myself mildly attracted to a nice, normal man in the class who I normally would have overlooked for the class ‘joker’ and ladies man who has about 8 girls on the go (find him repulsive!!incredible progress!!).
Also a man chatted me up in a bar for an hour and then slipped in that he happened to be married – I downed the double vodka he’d just bought me and walked off with no explanation. I recognised his behaviour was wrong and disgusting whereas before I probably would have carried on talking to him and thought he was a ‘great guy.’
Not ready to date yet, self esteem still v low but I am making progress!!!!!
Geez, I feel like you watched my last relationship and wrote this article. Ugh! Talk about hitting the nail on the head. Thanks again for a VERY perceptive and informative post. I’ve still got loads of crap to purge from my last A/C. And with all the stuff I’m learning from this site and the forums, I hope it’s my last A/C.
Thanks again!
b
Natthecat
Just looking at your list of what the other woman will be getting should make any woman RUN…. and not look back. Thats good that you made your list… Its always good to keep a mental list too in our minds of every single bad thing we allowed ourselves to put up with.
To whomever falls victim to my narcissists ass clown ex you will be getting…..
1. Lots of talk about what he’s trying to buy next; doesn’t matter what it is(money; his bill paid; gas for his car cause he can’t afford to drive and see you) because he is a materialistic moron….(while he’s hoping you’ll say don’t worry about it; I’ll get it for you… no matter what the cost; while he’s think that you owe it to him anyway.
2. Critical attitude and critical comments.. (he tries to put you down verbally with his words… a great manipulator.
3. Gonna want to consistenly drown you with all of his problems; his life drama;whether you ask to be told or not because it is all about him. He ‘s never concerned with your needs; wants or your life.
4. His continuous FARTS… around you(will never say excuse me)
5. Doesn’t brush his teeth or shower as often as a man should(because he gets off of work late and says he’s too dam tired to do so and makes a comment that he doesn’t give a F$$$) how NASTY!!
6. He doesn’t interact with his kids or pay child support… (He keeps running by changing jobs so that child support won’t take out of his check on the job that he has).
7. He constantly spends money that he never has( by borrowing it from his other shags or fellow friends with no intentions of paying them back)
8. His whole family is dysfunctional.; some siblings are incarcerated; they don’t get along. No family togetherness and good quality relationships between him and his sisters and brothers.
9. He constantly blabs on about his ex and his ex wife who he refers to as “That Bitch”.
10. If you are successful he will envy and try to down play you like a deck of cards… He wants to be center stage ALWAYS.
11. He’ll have you fooled for a while maybe at the beginning of the relationship and as soon as you mention committment he will start dissapearing for days at a time; start withholding sex; late nite excuses; yada yada…
12.Tells you that you are his problem and that you caused whatever mess or riff there is between the two of you.
13. A great verbal abuser..He’s phenomenal.
14. He almost act as if he’s a pimp and you are work for hire but not in a sexual way…. He will have you just doing this and that for him because he wants to feel like big shit when he’s really not. (he’s knows this)
15. He brags about what trip he ‘s going to take next. (How can you be talking about oh I’m going to Puerto Rico but you for one…. have a minimum wage job; you owe several years of child support; you are months behind on your mortgage; owe tons of people that you borrowed from money back(including me) and every week you can’t even keep basic shit on such as water and lights. Priorities are SCREWED!!
16. He will never offer to pay for shit and if he does he’ll get it back from you some way some how.
17. Constantly from time to time will bring up his other shags by referring to them as his home girl…(He’s screwing and using them too)
18. Blabs on about how he’s never having anymore kids.(Because he already knows he doesn’t take of the one’s that he’s got so dropping one off in you ain’t gonna make him a changed man)
19. He will use you for every dime that you have and there won’t be a penny left and once he knows that there isn’t he has already discarded you into his OPTION/FALLBACK FILE….
Need I say more? The list gets much longer.. Stay away from the premises of this creep!!
oh… great example.. he took me out to dinner on my birhtday but takes every bite of what’s left from my meal that I didn’t finish eating as his to go plate for himself…Hello!!! Its my birthday.. shouldn’t it be my to go plate instead of yours since its my birthday and you treated me? You see he paid for my dinner but he was determined to get it back somehow. This is the kind of stuff that he does…
im telling you..i’ve just undergone into a test of such man..he measured me up on how will i be treated. i dit not bite on his hooks. now the way he treats me is changed, as far as i think.
my curiousity now is whether’s JJ’s ex is the same man whom im having now bec they are a bit relevant. JJ if you can get back to me and tell the real name of that man, i just suspect that him and mine are the same person.. well we cant tell so anyhow right. bec these bullshits are the same in this kind of game…on the other hand he said he is looking for a real woman whom he can stay with long term. maybe its a ploy he did to me to discover if i can pass up to the category of ‘ finally, his wifey material’..id like to give him chance. im surprised to read that there is such a behaviour like this. its just happened to me without being aware such men exist..i feel happy for my self bec without knowing i should be warned of with existence of such craps, i have the inherent good, clean dont mess with me values.
ill stay in touch with this site and be happy to blog his real name in case hell turn up into an ass.
why dont we have the right to put thier real name in here anyway, even just thier initials and a bit discription of whats their work and physical appearance? so anyone who reads in these blogs can identify if their bloke is mentioned in anyway here?
can some one agree to this suggestion? i think its a clever idea
to at least get even on them?!