One of the pieces of relationship advice that you often hear people giving (and misusing) is that relationships are about sacrifice, you know that thing we do when we give up something of value in order to make something else more worthy or important. Now here’s the thing:
Any relationship, romantic or otherwise, has a level of sacrifice. This is actually the case with any decision that we make about anything because there are trade-offs, so for instance, if we decide to be self-employed, we give up the stability of the job we’re in for the freedom and sense of ownership that we might enjoy by being our own boss. With it comes a great deal of uncertainty and certain stresses that we don’t get with employment but it’s the sacrifice we make and many good things come out of it.
The trade-off of deciding to be in a relationship is that we give up the freedom of singledom or casual relationships for the freedom of being in a mutually fulfilling healthy relationship. We trade what might be the uncertainty (and any excitement that might bring) for the certainty and yeah, to a degree, the predictability of being in a relationship with the same person and making ourselves available to them.
Whatever the sacrifice is that we make though, one we should never make is sacrificing us.
Many people share stories with me of pain and suffering that in essence amounts to them believing that sacrificing themselves is love. No it’s not! The only people who sacrifice themselves are the ones who don’t believe in their worth. They give themselves up because they think that by making the other person as more valuable, that they will gain self-worth. It’s like, I’m making you better than me so if you will treat me right, love me, change etc, this will mean that I am now worthy and important. They make a martyr of themselves because they continue with the painful behaviour and choices no matter the cost.
When we act as if we’re the sacrificial lamb in our relationships, we’re actually allowing us to be destroyed or to have our use exhausted to fulfil a purpose. Seriously–who told us that our purpose is to pump people up?
If you haven’t been treating and regarding you with love, care, trust and respect, can you see how this has impacted on who you who you are attracted to and remain around?
When you’ve felt that you were less than and put your needs, desires, expectations, feelings, opinions and beliefs on the back burner along with your boundaries, you sacrifice you in relationships in order to say, “Hey! I’m worthy enough to be loved”.
Choosing a partner to increase your worth is you looking outside of you, which is self-defeating because it’s external esteem not self-esteem so it’s like shifting sands. By looking to someone else to make you feel good about you, you’re trying to cover up feelings of low self-worth but actually end up exacerbating them. Romantic relationships hide feelings of low self-worth for a time but the moment that the honeymoon fades or you have to deal with reality, conflict, criticism, and basically this person not being perfect, those feelings will start poking at you.
The relationship is used to prove your value and your partner has the job of making you happy.
You give up the all-important responsibility of taking care of you and making choices that honour your values because you think that giving that job to someone else outside of you is better because they’re more worthy and important hence they’ll do a better job of it. Sure, it can’t be any worse than what you’re doing?
There’s a lot of problems though with this outlook, namely that you can’t make someone ‘better’ than you and hope to have a loving relationship with them or be happy plus, thinking that someone is more superior to you is based on projection not reality. Imagine meeting someone tomorrow with the outlook that you have to give you up in order to be loved—exactly how do you think you’re going to interact with that person?
Isn’t it outrageous that so many of us take a person we haven’t met yet, or a person we just met or don’t know that well or do know but don’t like how they’re unfolding, and decide based on our judgement of us, that we have to make them more important? That’s jacked up! No wonder we feel like sh-t.
When they and the relationship don’t live up to the image in your mind, which represents your hopes and aspirations for you, you feel afraid, unhappy and angry, because if the relationship doesn’t work out, if this person is less than perfect, then in your mind it means that you have no value and that you’ve been sacrificing you for nothing. Then it’s like, “Gimme back what I’ve put in! I’ve made you more important and not only have you failed me but I feel like less than what I was when I met you. Who am I going to be without you and this relationship?”
If you’ve been sacrificing you in your relationships, HALT.
If tomorrow, one of my daughters are in danger, I would undoubtedly throw myself in harm’s way to protect her but my marriage is not about throwing me under a bus every day just so that I can make Em in to the messiah in my mind and feel all virtuous about it in the hopes that he will recognise my sacrifice as a badge of honour and give me self-esteem and self-worth. I have to show up as a worthwhile and valuable person in our relationship instead of making it about me being inferior and him being superior and hoping that he’ll slice me off a piece so that I can feel worthy.
Relationships are about mutual importance not about superiority and inferiority and definitely not about one person sacrificing. No one has to give themselves up—if you can’t be yourself in a relationship, what’s the point? There are various situations in life where you might be inclined to play a certain role to get things done but if there’s two places that you should be able to feel safe, secure and yourself in, it’s in your own skin and in a romantic relationship where you’re claiming to that love that person.
No person who truly loves, cares for, trusts and respects you, or has a strong foundation of integrity, is comfortable with another person sacrificing themselves for them. They will not sit by while you hurt to make them more important.
Your perception of your value governs the type of mate that you will consider. Raising your self-worth means that you upgrade the type of partner that you choose and respond to, hence when you stop sacrificing you, you will stop sacrificing being open to a relationship where you can enjoy mutual love, care, trust and respect.
Kind of feeling like this applies to my situation right now. Dating someone for just over a year… Turns out he has absolutely zero interest in sex. (I’m talking four times in the last year… Tough for those us whose primary love language is touch!). Lately this has extended to no cuddling, making out..nothing other than chaste kisses or an occasional hug.
When I try to talk about it, he apologizes, said he asked me before if it was a deal breaker (this was back when we were having sex mind you)… But really offers nothing in the way of ideas for solutions.
I also feel like he has been taking advantage of my generosity while he was out of work for a couple months (stayed at my house, ate my food, used my utilities- returned the favour in about $70 worth of groceries). He’s been working for about a month now and is still here all the time. Hasn’t offered to pay a cent except if he and I go out for dinner. He makes about 3x what I do when he is working.
He wants to move in together… And I am feeling like I should pull up stakes and run !
So I’m not sure if I am letting my EU nature get in the way so I don’t have to try or if it is my instincts pushing me in the right direction…. I know the whole situation is dragging my self esteem down and I have spent YEARS post divorce bringing it back up. This is not new behaviour for me (saying nothing when things are cheesing me off), but I don’t know Where to start to fix it.
Rebekah
on 15/02/2016 at 11:54 pm
In my experience that inside voice telling you to run is telling you for a reason. Ignore at your own peril.
Anne
on 16/02/2016 at 12:58 am
Of course he wants to move in with you. He has you on a string being his mother and is giving you crumbs in return. Kick this parasite to the kerb and go find an adult.
Gina
on 16/02/2016 at 1:50 am
Boof, a love partner is meant to add to your joy and peace, not make you feel taken advantage of and corrode further your self esteem. Moving in together is not a good idea (and if this is the one thing that you are needing to voice) make it clear that he is needing to find his own place asap because you will no longer be there (servicing his own needs and wants). I think a year is more than sufficient to seeing clearly that this guy is not the one for you.
Gina
on 16/02/2016 at 2:13 am
I mean a love partner capable of only occassional hugs and a peck on the cheek pretty much?! Definitely not on. Don’t be accepting of crumbs Boof nor let him single-handedly pilot this relationship that is requiring a two-person effort. Take time out for yourself in search of yourself where you work on speaking up for yourself because Boof you are so lovingly worthy and you so matter!!
Jules
on 16/02/2016 at 2:45 am
Drop the guy and run!! He seems to like having you around as a comfy cushion but doesn’t bring anything to the table. It’s been a year and you’ve only been intimate 4 times?!! There’s seriously something wrong with this guy. I think talking this out and you being the only one trying to fix things is a waste of your energy. Nat would say…flush!! Move on and forget him. You deserve so much better and you know it. You have all the answers already. All the best of luck!
Griselda
on 16/02/2016 at 11:59 am
Boof what worries me is even if you have a sit-down and talk it through with him about his staying in your house long-term, you’ll be put in a position where you have to ‘make’ him contribute half of everything because he has proven he won’t step up of his own accord. That’s a terrible start.
Afrok
on 16/02/2016 at 12:00 pm
Boof,
You do sound like a loving,generous and caring person. You also seem to know that the guy is unloving, uncaring, a user and does not give a damn about your feelings. Allow him to move in and he will suck you dry financially,emotionally and will leave you with zero selfesteem. Run Goof and never return. Worst case scenario is when he’s sucked you dry until you have nothing else to give (materialwise and emotionally) then he leaves for another martyr. His kind do that. You do not want that. You deserve better. Good luck in choosing you.
Alissa
on 16/02/2016 at 4:48 pm
Sounds to me as though you know the answer…..choosing a partner is one of the most important choices you make in you life. And, you have to accept the person that you see in front of you 100%. Do you accept this man and his behaviour as you see it today? Know that your are lovable and worthy and choose well!
Elgie R.
on 16/02/2016 at 7:27 pm
Boof, why do you need to hear someone else tell you that your instincts are right? That is the elephant in the room – your lack of belief in yourself, your lack of belief that your evaluation of things is CORRECT.
You said it all right here: I also feel like he has been taking advantage of my generosity while he was out of work for a couple months (stayed at my house, ate my food, used my utilities- returned the favour in about $70 worth of groceries). He’s been working for about a month now and is still here all the time. Hasn’t offered to pay a cent except if he and I go out for dinner. He makes about 3x what I do when he is working.
He wants to move in together… And I am feeling like I should pull up stakes and run !
Run, Boof. RUN!
How will you feel should you find out that he has been getting his sex elsewhere the whole time? See, in your mind, you’ve decided he has a low sex drive and you are sacrificing your drive for the sake of some “greater good” (which totally eludes me)…but, as is often the case, when we are sacrificing what we really want in order to live by someone else’s game plan, that other person is not sacrificing ANYTHING.
The universe is screaming at you to heed your instincts. There’s more for you elsewhere.
Brenda K
on 16/02/2016 at 8:43 pm
Hi Boof,
Yes, PLEASE listen to your inner voice and send that loser packing! I finally divorced the massive parasite infestation that I was married to for 17 years, but not until he had strip-mined me down to nothing. A male friend of mine once said, “Man Rule #1: PULL. YOUR. WEIGHT. If your woman is pulling your weight for you, then you’re either a pimp or a child!”
At very least, say that you need a break and then don’t see him for a few weeks or months and take note of how you feel after you are no longer being used as a boarding house. (And I second Elgie’s suspicion that he may be taking the edge off his sex drive elsewhere….)
Afrok
on 16/02/2016 at 10:20 pm
Boof,
“He makes about 3x what I do when he is working.”
Imagine how much he will be able to save for “himself” after he moves in with you, before of course moving out to be with someone else who will probably be thinking “what a responsible man he is to have saved that much.”
Suki
on 16/02/2016 at 10:39 pm
Not like you haven’t already heard it all from the lovely ladies up top! plus if you own your home, you’re getting a ‘tenant’ and maybe getting some legal messes in evicting him later.
For me the red flag thats been a bandana on your head so long you’ve normalized it is – no sex. Whats the point then? No sex, a guy that eats your food, wants to split the rent or live rent free (?), and occasionally gives you a chaste kiss. You’re better off with a roommate or a dog.
I wouldn’t even discuss this with him. My guess is you want to ‘fix it’. and this fellow will run circles around you sucking you into another year of the most tepid relationship ever…
Run run run away. And learn how to be single. I don’t mean that in a mean way – I’ve been reading some blogs about gender and society and etc and I’m just so — mad. I’m spitting mad. Nearly every story of withholding sex that I have heard involves the man withholding – and it is painful as all hell. Even if you decide you’re asexual too – you need to dump someone that doesn’t pay for their share of everyday expenses. And what have you learnt in life that makes you so willing to put up with nothing? THese are not even crumbs. This is the ghost crumb from a ghost sandwich of a tepid guy that hardly exists.
Jennifer
on 17/02/2016 at 5:28 am
Boof,
It is very clear that you two do not want the same things. There are so many red flags. Get out now while you can fairly easily, and do not move in with him.
If you have a shady relationship past and you start getting that old “familiar” feeling, RUN. I also recommend Natalie’s book Mr. Unavailable and the FallbackGirl via Amazon (I like the hard copy so I can make notations).
That book saved my life.
It seems like this is this guy’s pattern (and maybe yours, and he does this because he can get away with it, perhaps unconsciously), albeit irrespective of his intent, the negative consequences to you are still the same.
There are too many available, good, generous, wonderful, warm, and caring men out there who are sensitive to women’s needs and want to copilot an affectionate, giving, and generous relationship.
Hold out for one of them.
XX Take Care and sending courage your way, Jennifer
paula
on 17/02/2016 at 3:59 pm
Do not move in with this man.
Connie
on 06/03/2016 at 3:40 pm
What are you doing to yourself! Your allowing and enabling him! If this isn’t a case of self sacrifice then I don’t know what is! Don’t settle, you deserve better.
Joy
on 16/02/2016 at 1:07 am
He’s just using you. Of course he would like to move in with you so you’ll continue to take care of most of his responsibility. That inner voice is trying to warn you to remove yourself from this situation immediately.
Elizabeth
on 16/02/2016 at 1:31 am
Thank you so much for writing this.
I just broke off a 3 1/2 month relationship with a really nice, sweet, solid man. He was, for all intents and purposes, perfect boyfriend material. He was successful, handsome, kind, sent me flowers twice in two months and bought cards and gifts. He always paid when he took me out, was always available from the first day we met and he made me a priority in his life. I even got a good morning and good night text or phone call every single day. Sounds great right? Yes, on paper, he was great but, emotionally we were on two different pages completely. Our conversations revolved around (mostly his) work and kids and family and friends. Things rarely got deep or intimate and, in the last month we were together, it was becoming clear to me that he just wasn’t capable of giving me more in the intimacy department. And you know what? I need more! I need hot make out sessions on the couch every once in a while (not just missionary sex in the bed) and I need big bear hugs and eye contact and some emotional intensity. I need to talk about my hopes and dreams and fears and I want to know his. I need passion….not all the time of course but a little goes a long way.
So….because I don’t want to sacrifice that part of myself, that need for a deep, meaningful relationship, I broke up with him today. True to form, he was very respectful and kind and he basically patted me on the shoulder and asked if we could be “friends”. I said sure and I walked away knowing I will probably never see him again. And you know what? That’s A-OK because I am still me and I know what I want and I will wait until I find it, or until it finds me. 🙂
P.S. – The girl that I was 2 years ago after going through a devastating divorce would have held on tight to that man if it weren’t for blogs like this (and lots of therapy…ha!) Here’s to emotional growth and learning to love yourself! It’s a beautiful thing. <3
Gina
on 16/02/2016 at 2:00 am
Beautiful Elizabeth! You stayed true to yourself and stuck to your guns, way to go. I love reading posts like yourself where you’ve weighed up the options and followed through on what essentially is a very good and informed decision on your part for your purposeful self in life. It’s super great that you clearly know your intimate ways that is not going to be compromised. Keep learning and growing and continuing to love yourself every moment of every day. Smiles from me.
Elizabeth
on 16/02/2016 at 2:16 am
Gina,
Thank you! To be completely honest, I was looking for a bit of validation in writing that. I mean, damn he was so nice and it felt so good to have someone check in with me and make time for me every single day. But I am no longer ok with safe and comfortable. When he was so nice about the breakup today I wanted to shake him just so I could get some emotion out of him. But, alas, there were no tears or pleadings for me to stay. Just smiles and politeness. So aggravating. Oh well….I can’t make anyone love me, nor do I want to.
Sophia
on 16/02/2016 at 7:16 pm
I am so proud of you it is really hard when everything seems so right at the time to make a decision to end things, but you did that takes a strong person.
Brenda K
on 16/02/2016 at 8:37 pm
Hello Elizabeth,
Thank you for sharing your story! I am similarly in the process of splitting with a man who by any standard would ostensibly rank within the top 85th if not 90th percentile of “highly desirable mates” (decent, responsible, financially secure, attractive, successful in a “glamour industry”, among other positive attributes). While he is decent (read: “socially correct”) to me on a surface level, he makes it clear with his frequent and effusive criticism and judgment that he does not like who I am, and I keep feeling as if he is trying to flatten me down into a cardboard cutout prop that he can paint over with whatever he wants me to be instead.
While I clearly hear my inner voice saying, “(buzzer sound) NOPE! Not this one!” and am prepared to walk (in fact, I did just that last fall, but he reeled me back in), I still sometimes doubt myself and think, “Am I just being silly and sabotaging something that to all outward appearances looks like a very good thing?”
P.S. This thing was pretty much DOA anyway since it was “stacked” on top of the marriage I just ended, i.e., much too soon to be starting something new…and make no mistake, it was HIS idea!!
Elizabeth
on 17/02/2016 at 7:10 am
Brenda,
All I can tell you is the sense of relief that I have felt since ending it is overwhelming. What exactly are you holding on to? Are you happy?
While this is pretty low-key as “relationships” go…more of a FWB thing, and the “benefits” are indeed nice (sex is great, he pays for my salon treatments that I cannot afford amidst the post-divorce disaster recovery, I get to hang out with major rock stars, etc.)…I recognize that it is yet another case where I am voluntarily subjecting myself to a systematically invalidating environment, although some of that is due to my own issues. On the other hand, this is so much better than the relationship I just ended…in certain respects…that I often wonder if this is just a process he and I need to go through in learning how to communicate with each other and building intimacy. What keeps kicking my intuition into DEFCON 3 mode however is my sense that the relationship is fundamentally unbalanced, and my frustration with the way he communicates with me. Then again, I’m sure I trigger him in various ways too.
What am I holding onto? At the surface level, he serves as a convenient “human shield” against my psycho ex. Additionally, it has been very helpful to me to be close to a highly successful person and get to see what the M.O. looks like. It has also been an interesting experience getting to explore learning to show up and be vulnerable and communicate directly and authentically and assert boundaries in an intimate relationship under conditions where I feel safe and comfortable doing so (I have known this man for over 30 years but we have never been intimate before).
As I mentioned above, I had tried to do the right thing and broke up with him a few months ago, and when he reeled me back in I did my best to temper his expectations by communicating that I’m willing to go along for the ride if he wants to continue dating me while I am in EU-Rebound Limbo (a condition he does not even believe in!), but I feel pretty certain that at some point I am going to want to venture out of the kiddie pool and try the open ocean.
So I wonder: am I benefitting from getting to explore a different kind of relationship than the hot mess I just left (i.e., experiencing being a “kept woman”, albeit at the price of being “kept small”), and learn to use the skills I am developing from being part of the BR community; or is this just keeping me EU?
Am I happy? Last spring I was really starting to get traction in recovering from the divorce and test my wingspan preparing for lift-off in my new and exciting life as a single girl (I’d been dating the new guy for just a few months at that point and had made it clear that I was not ready for a committed relationship), and then the ex showed up and completely disrupted that process, which threw me into a really bad depressive funk that I am finally pulling out of in fits and starts, so all I can really say that the current relationship contributes is that while I enjoy aspects of it, it is nonetheless occupying a sizeable tranche of my mental and emotional bandwidth that I could repurpose toward my continuing recovery….
Perhaps that is my answer?
Say Something
on 20/02/2016 at 9:59 pm
Brenda K,
What you write reminds me so much of a friend of mine. Let’s call her Brenna. Brenna didn’t want to be alone and was always dramatically balancing and juggling men, including a controlling ex husband. She often told men of her controlling ex, her unbalanced state, her un-made mind… Ohhh but she could ‘fall in love so easily’ and it was glorious to have so much attention in the form of stalking, proposals, begging, and even an “our first Christmas together” ornament from one of them. One was arrested in front of her; one was a hoarder; one went on vacation with his ex-wife (couldn’t disappoint the college aged kids) and one was homeless and in rehab. And these men they put up with all HER drama in exchange for her love (attention and sex). Beautiful, smart, educated, professional Brenna never went without a man. She attended weddings, parties, and vacations. But Brenna didn’t REALLY love these men. One called her 75 times at work and choked her. He didn’t mean it. One had a history of soliciting prostitutes. Oh, but men have needs. They all justified crappy behavior. Bottom line, they were all WRONG for her and she was in no right state for dating/relationships as even flaming red flags just provided some background ambience for her. FFWD: Brenna married again two years ago. She married a man who put up with triangulation. She confided in me some things he said, which TO ME would have been outright deal breakers. She married him even after pleading with me, ‘please don’t let me marry this man.’ So, she is not alone and never really has been. She will pretend she never uttered those words. She will show the world that she is happy. I suppose part of her is, but deep down, I think she sold herself out. Please don’t sell out. Using men as human shields keeps you from truly figuring yourself out. Distraction from fear and hard work. You sound like you have so much going for you. What is it that you feel you’re missing?
millie
on 21/02/2016 at 10:29 am
Hi Brenda,
He is your crutch and a bit of comfort right now so you have some benefits that you like. It is better than your last relationship you say but it is still crumbs. It could still lead to an erosion of your self esteem especially further on down the line. Why not dumb him and start yourself on the road to sobriety from being EU so than eventually you can be available and enjoy a real relation based on mutual love and respect ! x
Gina
on 17/02/2016 at 2:18 am
Elizabeth you have come to the right place (super Nat and her super wonderful BR team) for validation and nothing wrong with seeking/asking for validation as there is even more strength in numbers. Yes you are correct in that we can’t force anyone to love us yet we are beings that inherently are to be loved in return so keep that expectation going for yourself.
Yes safe and comfortable is for the safe and comfortable (nothing wrong with that if that is what one is after) although your passionate self clearly wasn’t settling for that with the now ex. Nah you are better getting it off with someone alive who is emotionally available. Sorry I had to chuckle when you said there was no reaction to the break up on his part….emotionally aloof to the end. I think this may have warranted one of those very business-like shake his hand moment on your part.
Grieve the loss of what you had wished for the relationship, and keep it moving. Take risks, have fun, be creative, and go nuts on life 🙂
Rachel
on 22/02/2016 at 4:13 pm
Bravo Elizabeth! 🙂
I was recently in a similar situation with a guy who was perfect on paper but never shared any details of his life with me (barring work) until I’d get fed up and complain about it. Then it would still be like getting blood out of a stone! He never initiated dates/calls, never offered to take me out, rarely told me I looked pretty, sex became lackluster and non-existent and yet, for some bizarre reason, even though I knew we were going nowhere, I believed I had to do more to get things “back on track”, so I loaned him some money for parking tickets and played the supportive girlfriend when he accused me of behaving otherwise.
It was a BIG mistake to involve money in such an unstable ‘situationship’. It was like I’d somehow rewarded him for being a crappy boyfriend! Yet I still got nothing back for my efforts – not even a date.
So, please listen to us ladies and follow your instincts! The moment that parasite has his feet under your table, your unhappiness will multiply.
kookie
on 16/02/2016 at 12:41 pm
not sure if nat has written on this but wondering if anyone has any advice for embarking on a boundaried relationship with someone with whom you may defacto have to sacrifice more for because they have a mental or physical illness? i am talking about cases where the person is truly respectful, consistent etc and you have only started dating them and are at the stage of deciding whether to progress to a relationship.
i’m in the early stages of dating a guy who shared with me two months into dating that he has a serious, recurrent mental illness. he has had a hospitalization for it five years ago now, but he is in treatment and seems to have his life on track. i have only known him for a few months and there have not been any red flags so far and i have not really had a chance to see him in any very stressful situations so i don’t really have a good guage for how “bad” he is when he is in a relapse. his illness seems to be cyclical with some relapses worse than others but he usually gets through them working with his therapist and friends/family support.
i don’t want to stigmatize him, everyone deserves a chance at love and happiness even if they have an illness but i also don’t want to set myself up to be a sacrificial lamb during the times he may check out of not only my life but his own. at this stage i would not have any other reservations about progressing our dating but wonder what i can do to approach this smartly if i decide to go ahead . i just met him , so i do not have that love or anything bonding me to him but i do want to try it as he seems to share my values and it feels good being around him, but i don’t want my trial to end with ME getting a mental illness diagnosis.
Freedom Tastes of Reality
on 16/02/2016 at 3:17 pm
Kookie,
I really appreciated reading your comment as there is quite a bit of stigmatizing going on with regards to the mentally ill, whether it is simple depression or much more complicated issues. I have worked in treatment facilities/human services organizations for quite awhile and have quite a bit of training/experience working with the mentally ill, although I am in no way a licensed therapist or clinical psychologist.
I can say from personal experience that one of the most functional relationships I’ve had was with a man who was diagnosed bipolar. He got treatment for it early and was managing his illness, taking meds every day, and had an overall well-developed understanding of his mood swings, triggers, and how to deal with them. I would say that the key things to look for are if the person you are considering a relationship with a.) acknowledges their illness and b.) is proactive about seeking treatment/managing their condition. Therapy and medications are not red flags in and of themselves. I would be more concerned about an individual who is not actively seeking treatment for whatever their issue(s).
Beware that some people, as with abusive individuals, will use therapy to manipulate and/or try to con their therapist. It happens more often than you might think. Not knowing the specifics of what your prospective SO’s diagnosis is, it is difficult to give specific advice to your situation. However, I would say in general that if the person is honestly seeking treatment/aware of [insert issue here] and is actively working towards a healthy lifestyle (whatever that means for him or her), you should have nothing to worry about. You did mention that it is early days yet, so I would proceed cautiously. If the individual has honest intentions, they should be willing to proceed at the pace you set and respect your wishes.
Again, I really appreciated your comment. Those suffering from a mental health condition do deserve to live full and happy lives and, yes, that includes a relationship if that is what he/she desires. I hope my remarks have been of some help to you and I would be happy to try and answer any other questions as best I can.
kookie
on 17/02/2016 at 8:57 am
Thanks of the input Freedom, some very good points. My guy has Borderline Personality Disorder which I have been reading more about online on forums and in journals etc . When I started reading the descriptions of the disorder online , I freaked out! it sounded really bad which is so opposite to what has been my experience with him. I don’t want to end things merely because he has this diagnosis. He is seriously one of the kindest, driven people I have ever dated ( granted , I’ve dated some serious EUM cases). I know that he is disordered but ,so far, the way he interacts with me has been nothing but healthy and so different from any relationship I have had so far as a fallback girl. I agree with the proceed with caution advice. I think I will do just that , one thing reading Nat has equipped me with is feeling more confident that I can walk away from things when the red flags pop up and not feel so scared to try . It’s good to keep future challenges in mind but it’s not happening yet and hopefully I read the signs if they ever do come up. I think I will have to see when we are faced with a challenge/conflict how he handles that with me , we haven’t really had any yet and i think for me that will be crucial in my decision to enter a relationship. Thank you for the bit about if he has honest intentions we will respect my pace, my plan rests on waiting for something bad to happen ( naturally , not me creating a test) and then deciding if I want to proceed but I hadn’t considered how to confidently handle a conversation about pace if he brought up becoming my boyfriend up first before anything happens. Have to keep reminding myself it’s only a relationship anyways and I am not marrying the man I am free to reevaluate at each stage and opt put as I go along.
Mae
on 21/02/2016 at 10:36 pm
Acknowledging their condition and seeking treatment are key. Mental illness ripped one of my relationships apart. My ex had always struggled with depression and anxiety, and I was always aware and did what I could to be supportive and there for him. But eventually he slipped into a serious depressive state and completely shut down emotionally. It’s a powerless feeling, seeing somebody you love slip away from you like that and being unable to help them. However, even though he knows he has depression, he refuses to see a doctor or seek treatment. He won’t practice any sort of self care, either. He won’t eat healthy, exercise, or get on a normal sleep schedule. So while his mental illness wasn’t a deal breaker for me, the fact that he refuses to do anything about it was. It was beginning to drag me down into my own depressed state. So as long as you know what you’re getting yourself into, and know that he not only openly admits to his illness but also tries to manage it, I wouldn’t rule out a relationship with him. But being involved with somebody who struggles in that way can be very challenging.
Adele
on 16/02/2016 at 4:27 pm
Kookie,
People with mental illness deserve lovin’ too. But he has a built in excuse to check out, flip out and otherwise disrespect you. Your good days will be decent, but baby doll, whew, your bad days will be HORENDOUS, take it from me. If he stays on his meds, he will be manageable material, off meds, run fast, run and don’t look back.
Is it his fault? No, but his mental illness captures his brain, and he can say anything hurtful and unforgettable by you in his “demon” state (and they all have one). Please consider to go very slow, think on this: would you want to raise a son with this mental illness?
Stay in his life and be a super friend either way, but if you marry, people with mental illness are often abusive to children later, they don’t mean it, but they often are. Just some things to consider for later if you get serious about this one.
At least he is diagnosed properly and has a chance to manage his issues. Many men are never properly diagnosed and just wreck havoc on an unsuspecting world….
Freedom Tastes of Reality
on 16/02/2016 at 5:54 pm
“but if you marry, people with mental illness are often abusive to children later” Respectfully, this is a stereotype and a potentially harmful one at that. Yes, some individuals with mental illness ARE abusive to their children. Many are not. As many as one in four adults in America today suffer from some form of diagnosable mental illness. Mental illness is an extremely broad category and covers a huge range of different diagnoses. Also, many abusers (including wife beaters) are *not* mentally ill and of sound mind, though many might think otherwise to observe their behaviors.
Adele
on 16/02/2016 at 7:15 pm
FTR, I did not say 100% of the people with a mental illness are going to be in a relationship and 100% abusive all of the time. And no statistic can determine if your mentally ill boyfriend, uncle or father will be abusive or not. Obviously, people without any hint of mental illness can also exhibit abuse to a loved one. I was only intimating that with mental illness, there is a slightly to greater likelihood that the mental illness may trigger some abuse. And there is no statistic that can determine this, the only statistic that can 100% tell you if you will suffer abuse from someone with a mental illness is if you are in an intimate personal, familial or romantic relationship with that person, and sometimes it is “too late” to determine if you will yourself suffer abuse or not as it happens very slowly.
I am glad that the statistics are available online for people to review, but as for me, I have only my experience with family members and bf’s with mental illness and I speak 100% from experience. That is the only statistic that matters.
I wish someone had told me about this, I had to find out for myself and experience the damage for myself. So, I am sure the mental illness statistics are equally important….
Suki
on 16/02/2016 at 10:51 pm
I dated someone who was quite depressed – they were improving but still would sometimes just check out. Having some experience with this myself, I felt closer to him, we could discuss it and I knew how to deal with him in those times. Note – he did not know how to deal with me if I was having a bad day. So already the imbalance had set in. As women, we anyway are taught to be more considerate, thoughtful, listening, understanding and putting-up-with-crap.
So — there were some other problems in the relationship as well. Eventually he pulled some spectacular b.s., I think to self-sabotage and destroy the relationship. I backed away, and broke up soon after.
My take – if you’re in a situation where you have to be very nice to someone as a pre-condition, they quickly come to resent it. You’d think they’ll find you’re such a great catch since you understand them and will put up with them, but the danger is they will not see that all. Forget gratitude – you will get resentment.
Plus it makes me wonder if you’re going out on a limb because somewhere this mental illness makes you feel like you’re flawed and now he’s flawed so you feel more comfortable. You feel you’re broken, and if he’s broken too then you’re equal. So the odds of your resenting him are also possible.
This is not to say that those with mental illnesses don’t ‘deserve’ love. The question is whether your mental health will suffer giving them that. What do you deserve? To be treated well, to be appreciated. If this person can do that, fine. If they are used to using their illness to extract concessions that they don’t give to others, then you’re setting yourself up for heartache.
That said – this was hardly my worst relationship. Usually the narcs and ACs are not seen as mentally ill. So… I guess my view is that it can be fine while it lasts, but that there is an imbalance built in which will cause strain.
kookie
on 17/02/2016 at 9:08 am
Thanks Suki all very helpful thoughts,
Hmm hadn’t thought of the feeling aligned to him because he is also broken. I think that is true in a way, part of my great respect for him comes not from that he is broken but that he is broken and working his ass off everyday to stay healthy and on top of it , as I am. Of course, in spite of both of our respective work and daily efforts we may both sometimes fall into our unhealthy patterns and I guess we both have to be aware enough to understand and allow the other to opt out , if my emotional unavailability old habits and/or his mental illness habits hinder the relationship enough. Neither of us is going to get a “free pass” because of our struggles . I think the difficulty will be in the actual line setting and avoid a “one false move” kind of stressful anticipation in our relationship, waiting for the other to mess up, which doesn’t sound like much fun. He and I don’t sit and talk for hours about our individual struggles , we mostly just have a great time, enjoying life but I am trying to set up enough of a foundation that when times get rough for either of us the channels of communications and boundaries will be established. Don’t yet know the exact details of how I can do this but I will try.
kookie
on 17/02/2016 at 9:14 am
thanks adele! i was raised in a home with an alcoholic father, who was not diagnosed and definitely not getting any help so I can definitely appreciate the havoc that a mentally ill person can bring to my life. proceeding very very cautiously but at the same time continue to get to know someone who I care for very much. If I decided to not continue dating him or if for some other reason we decided not to progress the relationship I think we would be able to establish a good friendship at some point if he didn’t do anything really bad to me by then
Kerstin
on 16/02/2016 at 1:06 pm
Hi there,
My ex-boyfriend wanted me to move in with him and his daughter. He lives above his mother who cooks and washes for them. I am a person who is very independant and who has lived in several countries for years. I could not imagine myself living above my partner’s mother. But for the sake of our relationship I gave in and wanted to give it a try. Before I did, I once had asked him what compromises he was willing to make and what I would get out of this after me sacraficing so much. He answered “you’ll get love”.
That was the moment when I pulled back and said good bye!
Crystal
on 16/02/2016 at 7:11 pm
Kerstin,
Way to go in dodging that bullet! Surely mommy was getting older and less capable of completing his housework to the level of his demands, so he knew it was time to start grooming her replacement to be ready for when he’s worked her to death.
Cheers to avoiding becoming his next mommy-slave!
Gina
on 17/02/2016 at 12:58 am
Nice one Kerstin, pathetic comeback really on his part i.e. you’ll get love…sheezz?! Co-dependency playing out with mother and son plus not a good example for his daughter to be witnessing. Glad you kept it moving and no longer involved in that dynamic.
Gina
on 17/02/2016 at 4:21 am
Just thinking was the guy meaning you’ll get a shag for you’ll get love??? Sounds dodgy either way.
Michelle
on 16/02/2016 at 7:17 pm
By the same token, when an EUM starts crowing about “everything he does for you” (aka ridiculous crumbs), they think they are “sacrificing” so much for you – which is your cue to run away.
Tired
on 16/02/2016 at 8:20 pm
Hey ladies,
I love how you all take the time to help one another. Wow! Women empowerment. To make it short I am need of some sort of advice or clarification. I’ve been in more than two handfuls of situationships with emotionally unavailable men and it seems like my past 4-5 years of dating and still being a single mom have cut me to the core. I feel like I’m constantly mourning the loss of people I was never in a relationship with and feeling so empty because of what comes with me an over-giver, people pleaser trying to convince man after man to see something they choose to close their eyes to.
After reading most of Natalie’s blogs, getting her books I can definitely say I’ve come a long way in regards to how I see myself because I can admit I had completely lost my self-worth. Although, I can’t seem to understand what in the world I’m doing wrong because I can’t seem to stop attracting these men.
Recently (a month ago to be exact) I met someone I felt I had so much in common with. The first week we went out on a date and talked and facetimed daily. I decided to have him over when I got back from vacation the following week and I trusted myself to take that next step with him. After spending a night together it didn’t feel like anything had changed communication wise. We continued to share intimacy and he continued to make plans every weekend to take me out on dates. Now this is where I’m starting to have doubts and my gut is telling me something is wrong.
It feels too casual. It’s only been a month but I feel no sense of progression. He calls and the conversations are brief and meaningless and he’s always distracted texting someone else or talking to his friends in the background. He hasn’t asked a single question about my past or expressed any interested in getting to know who I really am other than wanting to know what I ate for lunch or how my work day was. He makes promises to call and doesn’t, seems to initiate sex EVERYTIME we meet for a date – like give me a break sometimes. I finally had it and decided to express (via text message) how I really felt about him. Told him again that my intentions were to hopefully gain a relationship in the future…and that I’m not out here casually dating.
I decided to text because I felt like we never talk about us over the phone or in person and I just didn’t feel comfortable openly expressing that to him because that platform has never been opened and I thought I was probably overreacting anyways. I sent the text cause I felt like crap after leaving his house one morning. We barely spoke the entire night before and every time we spend time together I won’t hear from him for at least a day or two. I was also graduating and all I got was a “congrats” text message. His b/day came and as usual I went as far as getting him cake, wine and a card to make him feel appreciated and offered to take him out to dinner but he instead wanted to spend it with his friends. Valentines day came and left and he made no reference to it nor did he make any plans. In fact, I didn’t even hear from him that night.
Even when we go out on dinners we can literally sit and eat in silence unless I ask questions. Anyways, his reassurance to my text consisted of him telling me not to worry and that everything was going fine. He told me he was unsure of where we were going but he liked me and that’s all that matters. Went on to add I needed to relax and stop thinking too much (I hate it when men tell me that).
I feel stuck and used. From my experiences in the past I can almost predict how this will end. I text him last night asking why he avoids conversations about us and he responds he’s shy and says nothing more. He goes on to text me about the weather today completely disregarding my previous texts as usual. Anyways…I’m rambling… idk what this is.
Crystal
on 16/02/2016 at 8:56 pm
Tired,
There is so much wrong it’s impossible to address everything. The high points:
He told you everything is going fine, because it is. For him. By not addressing your concerns, he is showing you his only priority: himself. He’s not concerned about your feelings, not in any way. Only a month in and he’s treating you this way? Yikes.
You feel used because he is using you. He is getting everything he wants: no-strings sex and attention. You are not getting what you want, and you won’t ever as long as you’re with him.
He will not change, except possibly to get worse in his behaviour. Soon you will find yourself doing his laundry for free. Run before this happens.
After you dump his ass, you might want to address the underlying issue. You don’t ‘attract’ these guys, you accept them. It sounds like you are EU yourself, & if you work on correcting this, you will have a greater chance at finding happiness.
Tired
on 16/02/2016 at 11:41 pm
Please see my response to you below 🙂
Tired
on 16/02/2016 at 11:43 pm
Crystal, Elgie R and Suki… thank you so much for that clarity. You’re right, he’s really only concerned about how he feels and he’s an expert with completely disregarding how I feel and what I want. I understand I might be attracting these sort because I stick around but I get stuck when it comes to dating because relationships don’t just happen overnight.
I mean, maybe he just needs time…maybe a month is too soon to rule him out. After all, the other EUM’s I dealt with lasted at least a minimum of 8 months. I get the man is in his 30s and he’s been in relationships but what if maybe, he just doesn’t know how this works? Sometimes I think I put much pressure on these men and end up ruining the likelihood of the relationship happening in the first place because of my doubts, insecurities and fears. What if this time it’s different?
I think we have great sexual chemistry but if you take out the sex I honestly couldn’t tell you what we had. I don’t get how a man would drive an hour 2-3 a week, take me out on dates, (oh and I should have mentioned he got me a perfume yesterday for no reason) call and text me…sparingly (even though the conversations are meaningless. I also should have mentioned he introduced me to his friends the night of his birthday as his “friend.” I couldn’t be mad because that’s what we are…we’re dating and we’re only friends. None of the emotionally unavailable men I dealt with in the past would have gone through such heights for some booty. They really don’t have to nowadays.
Could it be that maybe he’s emotionally immature? Maybe I need to be a little patient and keep my wants and needs bottled up inside since they only seem to be putting a damper on things. Maybe I over-think and over-rationalize and maybe I should just be going with the flow and see how things will play out. My intentions are genuine, they’ve always been. And I certainly would rather be very single than to date someone I have no future with because the only thing I want right now is a mutually fulfilling relationship.
He could just be trying to figure me out. I find it strange that he never compliments me…but maybe if he was I would really be head over heels for him. He’s managing down my expectations but what if it’s too soon for me to have them? 🙁
Crystal
on 17/02/2016 at 2:07 am
Tired,
No! No No No No No No.
He does know how this works. It’s not too early to have expectations. You made your feelings clear and he brushed them off. There’s really nothing to question. Except for the fact that you felt you couldn’t tell him how you feel, but had to text it to him. That’s really EU all around. It’s a great starting point for examining your own patterns, especially with all the new free time you’ll have after you get rid of him. There’s no need to waste any more time with him.
He has shown you who he is & what he wants. It doesn’t align with what you want. That’s all you need to know.
Elgie R.
on 16/02/2016 at 9:50 pm
Tired, you are a booty call to this man. You had sex with him, and in your mind, it became a “relationship” at that time. You used the calendar and sex as hallmarks of a relationship, as in “ I waited a week after my vacation, we’ve talked every day, we go out every weekend”.
He, on the other hand, sees this as a sex barter situation, as in “ I pay for her meal and we have sex.”
There’s no relationship here, and no amount of pleading or whining or indignation on your part is going to turn it into a relationship.
We gotta stop thinking that men who have sex with us must have some love and care for us. I’m not saying that they don’t care in any way about us, but it often means we were just available and easy pickins.
Stop giving up sex as barter for a relationship. Just because you said “I don’t do casual” doesn’t mean HE doesn’t do casual. He is doing his best to keep things at the casual level. And you KNOW it.
Suki
on 16/02/2016 at 11:00 pm
@tired; I found the way you said ‘gain a relationship’ to be interesting. You don’t gain one, you participate in one, you are in one, you are an equal partner, a copilot as Nat would say. Are you perhaps being too passive? Why are you checking in meekly with this here guy if he wants something more? – do you really really really want something more? He sounds boring or bored, so if you do, then you have to ask yourself why you are settling for so less in life.
There is nothing wrong with this guy. You’re playing it casual, he’s giving it his casual best which is pretty tepid – I hope at least the sex is worth it. Now you say you want more – why? the conversation is boring, and he’s distracted. My guess is this …thing ..youre doing whatever it is has run its course. You’re reluctant to give up and go back to ‘single mom’ status since you’ve decided that as per society’s views, you’re somehow not good enough as a kick ass single mom but that even a tepid fool of a man on your arm will improve your status.
There is nothing wrong with him – yet. He seems in fact to be already pulling back which is sort of healthy since he doesn’t want more. Its not like he’s taking you to meet his family as narcs do, the day before they dump you.
So – drop this guy. And keep dating. Next time don’t feel like you have to convert every casual dating scene into a relationship. Your dignity is in your hands, every single time. And make sure that when you are having casual intimacy that you enjoy it. Thats the very least we can goddamn expect.
Tired
on 16/02/2016 at 11:50 pm
Suki wow… your words resonate. I responded to you but the comment looks like it went above yours. Yes, the sex is good and that’s probably why i’ve been a fool. I think about it and i’m almost inclined to stay a little longer but it’s not enough. And yes, if you asked me why I want to be with him… I would say because we have a lot in common…but you’re right. He’s boring…our communication is dead. I’ve never even had such great sexual intimacy with someone I can’t even talk to and i’m a talker. It’s so dry. Gosh maybe I want him because i’m tired of this chase? Tired of dating? I mean…no such thing as perfect…and i really have a hard time with casual arrangements. Like I can’t have casual sex. Every time he leaves i’m secretly crying myself to sleep and feeling like shit. I have to jump into the shower and scrub away so hard it’s strange. But once the emotional connection is there…I enjoy it and I don’t feel ‘used.’
I’m clearly a wreck.
Adele
on 17/02/2016 at 12:27 am
The emotional connection is weak, you are making it more than it is – which is what I used to do also. He should only have you on his mind, and his friends are the best option when it matters most.
Don’t throw good energy after bad, I know it is hard to move on, but NC is a good option right now, especially since you are his gal-pal and he could not be bothered with Valentine’s Day just past. If any “fixing” would have been appropriate, it would have been then, and he blew it so flush. Cry as you are flushing, but you are better than all of this, and he can go back to his friends for a warm towel if that is what he needs now.
Gina
on 17/02/2016 at 1:35 am
Tired, no man you date is ever your last chance saloon (I really like this saying by Nat…last chance saloon). Don’t ever get tired of desiring the type of relationship you are after (you may have to go through a hundred guys to land a decent one) as the moment you do this is what you are going to get with what you are now experiencing with current guy.
Take time out for yourself after letting this guy go and see what really is going on inside of you. Leaving will be no skin off his nose and I kind of (minimally) feel sorry for him (and men like him) simply cruising on in life forging no real and lasting relations….a rolling stone gathers no moss saying come to mind.
Align yourself back to your kick ass value of no casual relationships as I think the internal battle stems from going against what you hold true for yourself.
ellie
on 18/02/2016 at 5:11 am
The more I read these responses the more I realize that these men are pretty sad creatures since they can’t feel their own emotions. It’s like being color-blind. The older they get the worse they get. The beginning of a relationship should be FUN and what we want is normal. It makes me nuts when they act busier or better than — they know deep down theyre not.
My guy was emotionally and sexually withholding. He was so emotionally immature at 47 (never lived with anyone or had a long term loving relationship). But he was so hot and the sex was incredible (when he decided) which really pissed me off and he knew it. I broke ‘it’ off 3 times and now I am alone but at least I am not going nuts trying to figure him out. He KNOWS he wasn’t good enough for me and his withholding had to do with not letting me get to know him cuz he knew if I did, I’d get tired or scared shit of his weirdness. I only miss the ‘idea’ of him and who I tried to wish him to be. Lonliness can make us try to create people that really don’t exist and then we’re disappointed when they don’t show up as them. No matter what though, being alone is always better than not being yourself…
Sofia
on 17/02/2016 at 2:12 am
Tired,
I thought for a moment that I wrote this, but two years ago!! The situation is so similar. It took my breath away. I am a single mom. When I started dating him I had been too tired of dating. I was 35 at the time and tired of trying and trying. I had been divorced for 8 years at the time and wanted a serious relationship.
What you describe about him sounds EXACTLY how our relationship was. Great sex, dry conversations, good laughs though, but no emotional connection. A lot of things in common, yes, but still, no connection. I dated him for a year. I felt I still did not know him a year after. It was like we were stuck in 1-3 month of the dating period. It was kind of cold and official. Like we were strangers. I tried getting close to him, open him up, opened up myself, of course, an open book I was from the start. He remained aloof. Of course two years later I see everything clearly. He kept me at a distance, casual, with one foot out of the door. He did hot and cold, push and pull strategy. I understand all of this only after living on Nat’s site, reading a lot of materials on psychology, self-help, abandonment recovery, grief, processing childhood trauma, and all of that, in addition to spiritual healing. I could tell you so much about all the things that kept me stuck. Last chance saloon mentality, incredible sexual chemistry, his intelligence, humor. My investment in him. His confusing “love you,” then “I am not sure,” and then all over again. The cold and hot behavior made me anxious, paranoid, insecure, nagging, and pathetic.
The most important thing from this relationship I learned is that why I allowed such person so deeply into my life. Why I didn’t walk away after 1-2 months when it was clear that the person would not commit and string me along until I let him. And he certainly did for an entire year until someone better came along (I think that’s what happened) and he said that I am not a person for him.
I learned a lot about myself.
It’s a long story. The main thing, it took me two years of healing, going back all the way to my childhood and all the other relationships to understand why I had such low self-worth, why I allowed to settle for less, dealt with his erratic, criticizing, disrespectful behavior. Why why why: these have been my last two years of self-discovery. I had a gradual but tremendous change thanks to Nat and BR readers and all the other resources.
Dear Tired, I recognize myself in you so much. The guy is clearly a user, but please look at what you did during this early discovery process. As far as your behavior: it’s obvious that you want a relationship and rush into it. You are fast forwarding it. I did the same exact thing. Always. I think you need to dump this user and when you date next time, take it very very slow and listen to your gut. Let it unfold slowly, don’t rush with sex. Sex clouds everything and we think we have this incredible connection. No we don’t.
I could go on and on and on.
I would say, step back and let him go. I know it’s hard although clearly you are not happy. Don’t let this stretch for months waiting that maybe he is not getting it yet. Maybe he doesn’t know how to have a relationship. That’s what I thought too about that guy. He had been only in one relationship that lasted 1,5 years and he was 34 when I met him. He never lived with anyone. So I waited and waited and waited. While he paid for my meals, wine, and the trip, for everything that we did. I exchanged with sex, “the love and connection” I thought we were having.
Protect yourself and leave the situation.
Read Nat’s articles about early dating and discovery phases. It’s really helpful.
I hope I am not too harsh. All with tough love, dear Tired. I was in your exact same shoes. Words for words.
Tired
on 17/02/2016 at 2:47 am
Sophia I literally broke down reading from your response. I had to take breaks to catch my breath and stop the tears and continue reading. God knows the truth hurts and I can’t even deny it anymore…you’re right. Waiting another 2-3 months or even a year is only going to dig me deeper into an exact same hole I’ve been digging myself out of for years. I’m so tired of being alone why lie? It’s hard to avoid the sex when the connection is there early in dating for me because I so long without it and sometime back I used to equate sex with love. Now i’m constantly having to remind myself not to.
You’re a strong woman Sophia. I’ve been here before with another guy and waited over a year being his florence nightingale, people pleaser trying to convince, coax, minimize and rationalize what the situation was all at the same time.
I’m disappointed in myself because just when it took me over a year to recover and build up my self-worth again i’m back again on the same side of my bed crying myself to sleep because I trusted and I was let down. But I understand we’re not perfect and i’m thankful for you and all the readers I read from on here and most importantly Nat because I don’t honestly where I would be without this constant reminder & realization today.
One step at a time right? I know I can’t do the 30 day no contact because i’m too weak for that but I have taken steps with deleting his number and only responding if and when he contact me and not ever the other way around. I can’t do cold turkey because I know i’ll slip up. I’ll just occupy my mind and time and take it one step at a time until I no longer feel the need to respond.
Thank you thank you thank you…this support has been beyond words 🙂
Sofia
on 17/02/2016 at 4:57 am
Dear Tired,
Trust me, I know, truth hurts!!! These lovely ladies here who were so direct and blatant with me helped me so much in 2014, 2015, and I keep reading here. Nat’s articles at first were so hurtful because they revealed truth about me, from which I had been running away all of my adult life.
Please don’t feel disappointed in yourself, oh no! You are recognizing your weaknesses and it is a very important step. You are not defensive and you do see that you need to work on yourself.
I am still working on myself. I had couple date attempts in the last 2 years, and they all were red flags from the start, but I noticed my habitual fast forwarding and anxiety settling in way too soon. The great news is that I correct myself immediately, check my temperature, talk to myself, clarify, and see the reality. I really love the new me approach in dating and other relationships. But it takes work and I am still working on myself. A lot to correct from years of confusion and immaturity. My friend told me that I used to be like on fire during my relationships. Very intense, gave all myself in quickly, and burned very fast, with only ashes left. I was like a child diving into a pool with all my previous relationships. I know what you mean about wanting sex immediately. I was EXACTLY the same way. I know what it was now: instant gratification and validation that I am worthy. Plus, I thought I would keep him next to me with my sexual tricks and power. Because otherwise I thought he would leave sooner. See, I knew he would leave anyway. It was always like that. I knew they would all leave. That was my mentality. And I picked men like that and everything went according to the scenario.
It’s great you recognize all of this, Tired. We have all been there and many of us are still learning and correcting our ways. We keep on learning. The beauty of it all that we finally stepped into a different phase of our lives where we recognize what happened, that we are a part of the problem, and we are working on the solutions WITHIN us. Not outside.
I recommend reading this site as much as you can. It has been a life changing resource for me.
Dump the user, wipe off you tears, look at how beautiful, lovable, and sweet you are. Love yourself, don’t rush with dating. It will happen and when it does take it slowly. The key to all this is being comfortable by yourself. Not being desperate that that’s it: the greatest sex ever I had is gone, my last chance is gone, I am a single mom, no one will look at me because I am a burden (I had all those thoughts before!!!), etc etc. You are a wonderful, whole, complete person. I know you had a year break but try to focus on you some more. Don’t take a break just to wait until the next dating. I think it’s very important to become so so comfortable with yourself, to where even though you are welcoming a potential partner, you are not worrying if the relationship doesn’t work out. Because you have You, you know? I hope you will come to this point. I have and am refining this attitude while having the space open for a good person. Boundaries, not walls:)
Say Something
on 17/02/2016 at 11:19 am
Sofia = BR Rock Star
Sofia
on 17/02/2016 at 1:13 pm
Aww, Say Something:) I still have way to go, believe me. I discovered that in those couple dating attempts. Long story short, what’s important is self-awareness and self-care.
Sofia
on 17/02/2016 at 5:12 am
Tired, about no contact: you are still hoping he will change.
You need to make up your mind to end it. Otherwise you will continue waiting passively. It is sacrificing yourself. I did this ALL MY LIFE. Sacrificing me for everyone. For every relationship. I accept this idea as suitable only for motherhood. I will do anything for my daughter.
So, of course you will respond to him because you are hopeful and waiting. By the way, I used to discuss feelings and relationships over texts too. EU glaring neon sign. I feel so embarrassed I used to do that. Instead of picking up the phone and calling or better yet, arranging a meeting and discussing face to face my concerns.
Now, I have a huge NO for texting about anything serious. I can’t believe how many times I was “working” on my relationship by texting.
Another similarity that I see between us is that I pressed about a relationship very early on, after 1-3 months without even being sure whether I like him!!!! Sex was outstanding. That’s it. I wanted him without knowing even why. I was tired of being lonely. I wanted to have someone.
So I recommend arranging to meet him: talk to him about what YOU want and what he wants. He will say something lame I am sure to keep you stringing along. Obviously he enjoys the benefits. Tell him that you are not continuing this type of relationship. The hardest part is for you to make up your mind to do it. I am afraid this situation might turn into you waiting for him to contact and keep building sand castles.
No point of going silent and disappearing either: it’s just game playing, I think. Just tell him (not over text or e-mail, phone maybe, but in person is best), that he is not what YOU want. And that’s it. Because you don’t want him. You think you do, but you don’t. You want a man who will respect and love you. And he will come. Love you and take care of you starting today!!!
lala2016
on 17/02/2016 at 9:34 pm
Sophia,
This reminds me of my previous relationship. Almost to a T. Now almost a year after the break up, I’m unable to shake all the pain and hurt that the caused me. Mostly, I blame myself for allowing him to treat me in a way that just wasn’t normal. Not saying he wasn’t normal, but he told me that he suffered from anxiety and depression. It was an ongoing battle with him. I put him before myself. I stayed for 3 years thinking I could change him. At first, he treated me good, well I felt like he did. Made me his priority, took me out on lots of nice dinners etc, met his friends and family.
The most confusing part of it was that he cuddled with me A LOT—while we watched TV, or while we slept, even in the morning before we got up and go ready for work. There were no passionate kisses, no talking about a future, no saying I love you.
I ignored the red flags. He then started blowing hot and cold and it was always a push and pull with him.
After the break up and found out he had been pursuing, dating and having sex with other women behind my back.
So to all the women here that see the red flags and want to ignore them, I beg you to please open your eyes and RUN….as fast as you can before you get hurt and to recover from something like this takes a long time and a toll on you emotionally.
Sofia
on 18/02/2016 at 2:44 am
lala2016,
I am sorry you are going through this. One year was not enough for me. This person also pressured me to terminate pregnancy while promising that we will try later in the future, so it’s taking me a long time to recover from all this.
I am feeling much better after 2 years, and although I am not completely out of it, it has been the best progress I have ever had. It takes time and you will get there on your timing.
Definitely and I wish I found BR during my early dating experience. Not sure if I would listen. That’s the thing: I didn’t even seek resources like BR because I didn’t think I was doing something wrong and didn’t realize there were red flags, although my gut was screaming daily to get out.
Having the clarity now, I believe he cheated too. Although I never had a proof. We stayed almost no contact in 2014 after the breakup in January 2014 except for him reaching out 3 times to me. After I asked why he is reaching out and if there is anything he wants to say, he disappeared for good. I have no shared friends, or work, or social media with him. In fact, I don’t know if he is alive. But my gut is telling me that I was being cheated on. I understand it now.
It’s all very painful, I know. A day at a time, a week at a time, a month at a time. We are healing. We will be ok. Take your time.
lala2016
on 18/02/2016 at 6:08 pm
Thank you Sofia for your kind reply. I’m so sorry to hear that he pressured you to terminate the pregnancy. I can’t imagine what that might of been like for you.
Like you said, one day at a time. I still think about him everyday. The last I heard from him was Christmas last year. He sent me personal text message saying “Merry Christmas Lala” I was so angry over that because he knew exactly how I felt and what he did. I never replied to that text, but knowing him, he probably thought I never received it.
I was so upset after the break up, crying myself to sleep every night. I spent 3 or so years of my life with this man. In the end I realized that I couldn’t be myself around him for the fear that he may leave me. I felt like I needed to be perfect for him. He was very judgmental and so selfish.
I think the reason this has been so difficult is because I am now 46 and I feel like I’m running out of time. Men my age want to date women 10 years younger than me. I found out my ex was cheating on me with a co-worker that was almost 15 years younger than me. I had proof of his cheating, but I could see it in his behavior and felt in my gut.
Sofia, if you felt it in your gut, then there is your proof!
I can relate when you told me he reached out because men like this, reach out to us after a while to see if we give them a response and if we do, it’s only about their ego.
I could go on and on about how my ex treated me….I tried to convince myself that he was good to me, taking me out to nice dinners, holding me every night, making me priority, introducing me to his friends and family, texting me to tell me that he missed or that he was on his way home. (I lived with him for a year). All those things didn’t matter, if there was not passion or kissing or looking at each others eyes and talking about us or emotional availability on his part. He could never open up to me.
I sought therapy but I don’t feel like it’s working for me. I’m just taking it day by day. I’m so glad you are on the road to recovery and that each day it’s getting better for you! We will be ok.
All the best!
lala
Tired
on 17/02/2016 at 2:48 am
Ladies you are so amazing. I couldn’t tell you how helpful this has been. I have no one in my life I could ever get this from sadly and because of you all I will be able to sleep tonight at peace. One step at a time <3
Wiser2
on 17/02/2016 at 6:48 am
I posted under the other post, but it got buried. I am in dire need of sanity. Long story short, have been divorced for 2 years after a horrendous, vicious 6 year legal battle with a narcissist, cruel, selfish, mean ex. Who cheated me of my money. I walked away with nothing to save my sanity and our child.
I had been in no contact after our divorce, but had to contact him as our child developed some medical issues and he is helping the child with managing the medical concern and with college admissions. In the process I have to meet him a lot. He has taken this as a pretext to talk a lot with me, my actions so far have been consistent, I have made no qualms that I am over him. But then these people read what they want to and ignore the rest. I am scared what if he becomes personal, implies to meet without our child, which I have avoided so far. He flies into rages very quickly, and don’t want to upset him, as he has very very helpful in managing our child medical issues. Plus he is also helping in the admission process. Any posts to manage relations with an ex. Even when you rather not talk to me or see their face or breathe the same air!
Suki
on 17/02/2016 at 10:39 am
@wiser; I feel there is something you are not telling us. You seem afraid of this man. He has rages. If he gets personal you are not sure what you will do. If I was so afraid of someone, I wouldn’t let them back in my life to this extent. Why do you have to meet him a lot?
You need someone else in your corner – where is your family or close friends? I would also recommend websites like chumplady which are focused on the post-divorce period and how to deal with people with rage issues.
You sound almost helpless + in despair + giving up already. I don’t know how I could help with only words on the internet when you sound as if you have given up.
You’re almost saying ‘heres my life, its screwed, I have no power, there is a horrible person in my life, HE has rages, HE does xyz and I have to fall into line, and I am watching my life slow-motion toward a train wreck — help me’.
Ok my suggestion – find a therapist to talk to. Find a good trusted friend to talk to. And go NC again – clearly you did it once, you can do it again. AND stop seeing yourself as powerless – as long as you do, you will be powerless.
Wiser2
on 18/02/2016 at 3:33 pm
Suki,
I have very few friends, where I live being divorced is a big no no. So very difficult for people to understand my situation and why I choose to walk away. I am grateful that few friends I have are not judgemental, and good listener. My family are very supportive and have been with me throughout.
Yes, our child would depend on his father for financing the college education. Also his father is good at counselling our child, since the child is worried of exams. So in short the child needs the father’ s care in addition to mine. The only thing I need to manage is maintain minimum f2f with ex., when he comes to meet our child or pick him up. I need to also have a min. of phone conversations when he calls to inquire about the child. So far I have successful in not reacting to some of the snide comments he makes. Yes, he is a very complicated guy, with passive aggressive but compassionate to the child.
Say Something
on 17/02/2016 at 11:39 am
@Wiser2,
My exH has some anger/control issues and here is how I deal…. I don’t respond to any comments, remarks, outbursts that feel mean-spirited, threatening, or controlling. My kids did not need his help to get into college. You are not clear on how he is being helpful. Financially? He does not have power over the college admissions process. Work with high school/college advisors and admissions officers, financial aid reps if you think you need additional guidance. Your son/daughter needs to be active here. Are you feeling overwhelmed because there are changes (medical needs and college on the horizon?) What power REALLY does the ex have? Sounds like you feel more tortured than helped and that you believe he is the one to best take the lead. You are capable. And at age 18 (in the US) the ‘child’ ultimately makes his/her own medical decisions. Suki made some great points. You are not powerless.
Wiser2
on 18/02/2016 at 3:47 pm
Say something,
Thanks for your note. I think the only power I think ex. Has is the possibility to financially control our child’s education. But it is not like our child won’t be educated if he does not , but as a mom I want the best for our child. Of course not at my mental and emotional cost, since now the situation with our son has stabilised, I gradually going back to less phone calls, not picking all his calls, and communicating mostly via email about our child.
I also talked about the situation with one of close friends, who has given me some perspective on how to keep boundaries in place.
Headache and heartbreak
on 17/02/2016 at 10:03 pm
Just posting my story to get it off my chest, not because it necessarily applies to Nat’s recent blogpost.
I’m having difficulty getting over this guy i met through a dating app. I know that’s far from ideal and apps like that are like Emotional Unavailability Central Headquarters. I guess i learned that the hard way these last few months.
We started messaging back and forth for a few weeks every day in september-october last year. Just smalltalk. I already started getting attached because i felt quite lonely. I assumed he did too. We had a couple of dates, but didn’t really talk a lot in real life. I thought he wasn’t very comfortable talking a lot and that made me a bit uncomfortable. I hoped things could progress slowly, that he would begin to trust me and start to talk and we would get to know each other over time. I know now how naive that was.
The fourth or fifth time (i don’t really remember) i saw him, we slept together. It wasn’t all that great, but i thought “it’s ok, it’ll get better over time when the intimacy grows”. A couple of days later it happened again. Soon after, he broke things off (with a text of course), decided he didn’t feel what he was supposed to feel. He also said he had a constant vague feeling of doubt about everything in his life and that he wasn’t over his ex. He also recently moved back home after living abroad for three years because of his work. By that time i had already noticed he was a bit of a workaholic and he didn’t have a lot of friends (except for an ex or two and some people from work). Lots of red flags, i know that now in hindsight.
I wanted to talk about it in real life and he was ok with that. He told me his father used to be an alcoholic to the point where the father ended up in hospital almost dying. During that time his 1,5 year relationship came to a halt because his girlfriend broke up with him. He told me he’s not over her. Can you believe that? She dumped him during what must have been one of the worst times in his life! Anyway, i recognized some things, coming from a similar problematic home. I suddenly also saw where his vulnerability came from. He was so sad and ashamed. By the end he asked me if i still wanted to meet up in the future to talk. It broke my heart. I saw my own deep rooted sadness regarding my upbringing reflected in him.
So afterwards we tried to stay friends, but that didn’t feel right to me. He just wanted to keep messaging occasionally and that’s not what i see as friendship. I want more than that, but he can’t do it. He’s an adult child of an alcoholic (as am i) and i think he doesn’t realize what that means. Being an ACOA has huge consequences for the way you connect to people and how you live your life as an adult. I am starting to become aware of that more and more. But it just hurts, even though i saw him only seven or eight times in real life. I know he’s EU, I must be too. He wasn’t an AC though. I believe he has a good heart but is terribly afraid of getting close to people and letting them in.
I sent him a beautiful heartfelt handwritten letter on december 7th. He never really responded to it. A couple of weeks later, on the first of january i got a message: “My best wishes for the new year, i hope everything is ok”. I didn’t respond because i was NC since december 13th, but there hasn’t been a day i haven’t thought of him. I know i should tend to my own problems and wellbeing and i’m trying… Just wanted to share this.
Sofia
on 18/02/2016 at 2:55 am
Headache and heartache,
I am a child of alcoholics as well. I understand everything you are saying.
Instead of figuring him out, I recommend that you start working on you. Read and/or attend a group in your area. He has to figure out his own stuff. You need to start digging deep inside you who you are and why you are the way you are. I have been doing the self-discovery in the last 2 years and healing wounds that had gone unnoticeable and I didn’t even know they existed.
The most important thing for you moving forward is to focus on you and your healing. You are investing and overinvesting in person who is dealing with his own stuff. You are not his priority.
Start being you as your priority. To improve the quality of our lives, we need to figure out what happened in our childhood and not what’s happening in our dating world and relationships. We need to start from the scratch, stay single for some time, and tend the wounds. Otherwise we are bound to repeat the same mistakes over and over.
Children of alcoholics are the ultimate guilt feeling people, blaming themselves for everything, people pleasers, highly triggered by even a hint of abandonment. We are empathetic people and tuned into others very well. Because we had to when we coped as children. We had to make it ok.
Now it is time to make it ok for us. To stop sacrificing us for others. It’s time to rebuild us.
Forget the guy. Take care of you.
Sofia
on 18/02/2016 at 2:57 am
apologies, got the name wrong! Headache and heartbreak says.
Change your name to something positive. It will lighten up your spirit:)
Getting there
on 20/02/2016 at 3:36 pm
Hi Sofia,
thank you for your reply. You’re right, i have to keep working on myself. Not easy when my whole life has revolved around my parents and their problems, so i’m used to focussing on other people instead of myself. That way of being has very very deep roots.
The last few days i started to get out more and meet up with friends again. One way or another, they are all saying the same thing as you: start focussing on myself. Also, i should always remember that this was not about me. It’s important, because as you said we are the ultimate guilt feeling people, and i have been trying to make sense of it all by blaming myself. I shouldn’t do that. I also shouldn’t try to overanalyze everything, but just feel my feelings, observe them and validate them, without overthinking and certainly without categorizing them as right or wrong. They just are.
Having said that, i still regret we couldn’t make it. I think we could have been very good friend, but true friendship can never be second best after you have tried and failed the “relationship option”. That’s devaluing the very essence of friendship, i think.
So thank you very much for your reply. 🙂 I always believe: if i hear the message enough, some day it will “stick” and with practice become my nature.
Big hug!
ps: changed my name 😉
millie
on 21/02/2016 at 12:31 pm
Getting there,
You post moved me so I thought I would respond off the cuff:You have been used to tending to the needs of others as a child and this is how you operate and feel most comfortable. This guy has issues that he clearly has not dealt with for whatever reason stemming from his upbringing- so do you. You were both helpless children once but you both have a choice, especially you- put you first, make decisions that benefit you, get someone to look after you for a change, love you. You will meet a lot of creeps- we all know you have to kiss a lot of frogs to meet a prince but we don’t have to stay with the frog if they do not turn into princes.This man is no prince- is not on the road to recovery. Get rid and don’t look back I’m afraid x
Nicki
on 19/02/2016 at 10:19 pm
I wonder if there are any success stories out there, thriver stories, those who have come out the other side and living happier, content lives and more importantly are over their EU MM / AC etc?
I’m almost a year on from my break up with the MM (who lied to me for nearly 4 years about his marital status) but I feel sometimes I take 2 steps forwards and then 2 steps back again. I thought I was doing ok over the last couple of months, until I decided I was bored at work this afternoon so would do a sneaky online search of him etc. because I’m so much better now!! WRONG! needless to say I found out something I’d rather I hadn’t and now I’m beating myself up for putting myself through this. Why am I not strong enough to resist? I don’t want him back, I just can’t bear the thought he let me go and then just went back to his old life as if nothing had happened. I shouldn’t care because if his wife did take him back she’s welcome to him and their issues but he future faked us on a monumental scale and I’m still struggling to get over this. I’m considering hypnotherapy, that’s how much I want to move on from this……..I’ve tried everything else!
ellie
on 21/02/2016 at 4:52 am
I felt the same way. I wanted to remove his ‘chip’ from my brain. My friend told me about EMDR therapy. It’s really amazing and has been around for decades. Read about it. Good luck.
Suki
on 21/02/2016 at 4:04 pm
Nicki, what do you think are your learnings from your relationship moving forward? Now that you googled him, what are your learnings? That is, where do you take responsibility.
I have not googled the ex-Narc since the breakup, and definitely not since I heard he was re-married. I know that he is narcissistic and will have tons of pictures everywhere. I know this is bad for my mental health and I am ultimately responsible for my mental health. I unfriended, unfollowed on everything. The question is for you to ask yourself how you see this relationship and where the responsibility is. One one level you say that he lied to you about married – I’m not sure at what time in the relationship did you realize he was MM. The times you stayed with him after that are on you, thats your responsibility to take. IF he lied to you about being married, then till the time you found out, you were massively betrayed by him. That you are still pining for him in some ways, that bit is your responsibility. This might sound harsh but you must extract your responsibility from this situation. You looking him up – thats your responsibility. You choosing to be upset by what you found – thats in your hands.
Are there thrivers? Yes. I’m a thriver. How do I thrive? I continue to be in therapy, I read self-help books, I read Nat and respond here, I talk to my friends and ask for advice and then I goddamn take that advice. I give advice. I step up for my friends. I set boundaries. I take hard decisions. I try to be calm and look for silver lining in things. I aim to do my best at my job and at whatever else is under my control. I try to come to terms with being single because I no longer want to settle for less than a mature, stable, generous adult. There are thrivers all around you. There are no magic wands though, the thrivers are pretty boring and normal, they might not look like success stories on the surface of it. On the surface, they might just look successful.
I know that a friend of mine has resented me more on finding out that I used to be a complete wreck – she already resented me when I got a promotion etc – I think she preferred to think that I was just somehow magically endowed with calmness and professionalism. It was harder for her to realize that I have had to work to pull myself out of the mud. She is in the mud of her own making, and I think she believes its everyones fault but hers.
Used
on 21/02/2016 at 9:25 pm
Right on target!
Mary Jane
on 22/02/2016 at 12:38 am
Suki,
I love your post. Like you I am a thriver. I had to pull myself out of the mud. It took time, but I did it. It feels WONDERFUL.
I love how you took control of what you could control. It makes all the difference in the world.
MJ
Nicki
on 22/02/2016 at 10:03 pm
Suki, thank you for your response (I think). I asked the question about thrivers because as I said I’m nearly a year on from my breakup and still struggle with the PTSD I suffered at the hands of this narcissist. I’m glad for you that you were strong enough to break all contact after your break up, but some of us haven’t been as strong as you. I don’t think it’s fair for you to question ‘IF’ he lied to me about his divorce when that is clearly what I said. This psycopath produced fake divorce documents, duped me, my family and friends and left me with debt when we broke up, all the while we were living together and planning our future. Oh yes there were red flags and my self-analysis leads me to my responsibility in all this. So I’m not ‘pining for him’ as you say, just morbidly curious, destructive I know, but just occasionally my morbid curiosity gets the better of me. I have tried so hard to move on from this betrayal, sometimes I wonder if I’ll ever recover, ever be able to trust anyone again. I’m only human, I’m going to fall down sometimes, but I’ll keep on trying because I don’t want to be defined by this relationship. I don’t want to be reprimanded for that, I come here for support, to be told it’s okay, we all do it sometimes, not to be made to feel worse than I already do.
Suki
on 23/02/2016 at 1:29 am
I apologize for coming on strong; I think the question about ‘where are the good stories, the thrivers’ gets me sometimes because it ignores that the good stories are just people pulling themselves out of the mud. There is no magic wand. I have been where you are. I have been in therapy for a long time, I had a lot of personal problems that I don’t want to go into, I had much in common with your current situation. And I’m thriving – and its still work every single day. So I’m not done thriving, its a verb not a destination. It never stops and its really really hard work.
Is it a reprimand? Yes to some extent it is – you have some things in your hands. You cannot conjure up a relationship, you cannot make others love you, so if thriving for you means finding intimacy you’re setting yourself up for failure. But you CAN stop torturing yourself – thats what I meant, there is responsibility here that you can take. The only way to thrive is to start taking steps. Perhaps you posting on BR is one such step. I wanted to ask you to find the parts of that relationship that were your responsibility. Or the parts of what you are doing now that is your responsibility.
When I said ‘if he lied to you’, I wasn’t doubting your word, I believe you. I think its the way I phrase things, I’ve ended up miscommunicating this way before. What I mean is usually more along the ‘if…then’ way of thinking through something. I mean ‘If someone lies to you about being married, then such and such follows…’. I also wanted to contrast it with what happened after – once you know, the responsibility shifts. You’re not in the dark anymore. Now you know. Now it becomes your responsibility what you do – so if you stayed after that time, then you have to ask yourself why, what made you, and how can you change that in the future. Its taking responsibility without blaming yourself. Perhaps you are not ready to think about your role. Perhaps no one is, perhaps I wasn’t either, and I’m just coming on strong here for reasons I cant identify.
But taking responsibility never hurt anyone. And if there are patterns here that you find in other parts of your life, and you want to start enjoying life again, then you’ll have to figure out what part you played or what really happened. OR just shove it out of your mind and get on with your life. If he’s such a sociopath as to lie for 4 years, [note how I wrote that! I don’t doubt it I just write this way I don’t know why]… anyway if he’s such a sociopath then you have no responsibility or blame anyway. You stayed even after you knew – [not sure you did] – so what? Let it go. move on.
I used to tell myself ‘sometimes we fall for a–holes’. Thats it. Sometimes we do. And thats fine. Thats totally okay.
Nicki
on 22/02/2016 at 10:06 pm
Thanks Ellie, I’ll certainly look in to that, appreciate your support x
millie
on 24/02/2016 at 10:52 pm
Nikki, I was with an engaged man/ then separated for over 10 years on off/ flip flapping both ways. He was a soul man the male version of me except the morals- love this man I would have done anything but I knew he was not the life partner for me. He wanted kids and a wife and lots of girlfriends so he went off and married. We seperated a year before he wed and then 2 years later he contacted me. It had to stop. It was like putting a knife in my own stomach but first I deleted his phone number and no one died- shock horror. Then their was facebook. I blocked him at 12.30 before going to sleep and when I woke up the world hadn’t ended- but I cried through out this period similar to experiencing a death. Drinks were necessary so were good movies and friends. Now 18-24 months on whose counting I am free to find MR Available and Mr Wonderful.
Free yourself Nikki- go full non contact including social media. Let go of him as you say he’s forgot about you and moved on- same as this man who would have tied me up for another 10 years as his side chick/ mistress if I’d allow him- but I finally came to my senses. Don’t waste 10 years- don’t waste any more because if you allow this to drag on it can do forever. Why give a sh*t what he does now- start moving forward and don’t look back! Pick a date like dieting and go for it 0 you can do it, you are stronger than you think! Don’t waste any more of you/your energy on him x
millie
on 21/02/2016 at 10:55 am
All my adult relationships in short have been with shady people and AC’s.
What’s worse is that they have been very long term 7 years, 10 years and 5 years. All were EU, my father was never faithful and so my mum put up with a lot of crap! She was also of course unhappy at times and she was verbly/emotionally abusive to one older sibling that we witness this subtly at times. Due to my dating history I have not been out with anyone for 7 years !!I am now looking for a soul mate and a good man. I went on a date last year with someone 15 years younger than me we met in the library and went for a coffee a few days later. I flushed him the next day as he was pretending to be a muslim to please his father- and one of my criteria is I need a man. I went on a second date with a man and don’t know what to make of it- so hence my post on here. We met at a club and went for a drink= fact finding mission. I asked him school was like and said he can’t tell me as it was a bad experience and a single sex school which stunted his growth in girls for a while but he is now late 40’s. He also said he got on great with his mum but that she was too strict and that he had an argument with his sister that resulted in a night in the cells and again with an exgirl friend. I had drunk lots of too much rum by then on my rare night out and the music and back ground noise was too loud to fully hear the explanation he gave, he did give on. I said to him you seem to have issues- ie with school still, with family or was he just sharing?? What do you make of all this and do I have another date where I am sober to extract the gory details or is it flush. How do I bring this all up again, I hadsaid I had been in trouble with the law and that’s when he shared about his run ins, Your thoughts appreciated.
Suki
on 21/02/2016 at 4:10 pm
How can someone’s mum be too strict – he’s in his late 40s. FWIW, I cant always deal with my mum. I wouldn’t ever tell anyone that on the first date. Or the second. Or for along time.
And going to jail for a domestic dispute? Flush. Too much drama with the women in his life. And it seems like he believes he’s just had it rough all his life, which means he probably doesn’t like to take responsibility.
Plus – I don’t know your troubles with the law, and what you went through, and whether you have learnt and moved on or not. If yes, you have resolved your issues, then you don’t need the drama. He might pull you back in. If no, then you don’t need to be with another person with unresolved issues. So either way, flush.
millie
on 21/02/2016 at 5:58 pm
I did not ask or could not keep asking when I did enough questions. I have had no trouble with the law I just said it randomly that I have seen the world and even had a few brushes with the law. I was thinking it is nice to share and disclose I am here as I question the info he did give. Thanks Suki for your time and thoughts x
millie
on 22/02/2016 at 9:32 am
I took your advise which was of course my gut feeling hence posting on here seeking the wisdom of BR and the team. Anyway- I pressed flush and he popped back up strongly. He with lots of questions and tell me you are not like the rest. I then went for a hard no and he said he will not give up that easy- it was 4am to when he sent a text to say I am lovely and the last one calling me two faced . It was scary as it was one date- a few drinks, he held my hand as I got very drunk and that was it, we met the previous week at a club. He is nuts and boy did I pick em than goodness I aborted saw code red failed to ask questions- well here the answers but I am now scared to leave my home as this was crazy / childish shit especially after one date but I will do so and I did sense he was immature. I also phone blocked him so feel I took back my power-I think he works near my home if I see him we’ll cross that bridge and fortunately I am moving in 5 weeks lol – Thanks Suki for your swift reply you have helped me more than you will ever know- I was going into the lions den, well considering it until your intervention. TC x
christine
on 22/02/2016 at 3:45 pm
Im currently seeing this guy by 2 months…he is 49years old a divorcee by 15 years hasn’t dated in 4 and has 2 grown sons. He is asking from me total perfection, I find that when I talk to him I’m starting to guard what I say to him because he constantly over thinks and analyzes what I say, making something that is purely normal something that becomes a monumental issue. He has told me that he is a mom’s boy and for some reason feels that it is a badge of honor by saying that he is, he just recently told me that his mother lives with him because she separated from his father who is an alcoholic. He has a gently and soft way about him, he appears to be grounded…I do find him attractive both outwardly and inwardly to a degree…but I feel either he is emotionally unavailable and trying to sabotage the relationship by picking apart things that I say or by what he randomly throws out. Just yesterday he told me that he thinks he’s too good for me…when I asked him what he meant by that he told me to forget that he said that, when I told him Im a good person and the I wanted an apology he gave me one but I don’t want to feel that I have to keep asking for apologies or that I have to guard my innocent remarks…
Rachel
on 22/02/2016 at 4:58 pm
Christine,
He sounds incredibly controlling – like the kind of man who will gradually eat away at your self esteem with cruelty and backhanded insults – until there’s nothing left. It’s already affecting you as you’re monitoring what you say to him for fear of his reaction. Nobody should have to walk on egg shells for the sake of someone else’s feelings. That’s not how it works.
After his “I’m too good for you” comment, you should’ve walked away and shut the door in his face. It’s obvious that’s how he feels deep down inside and the fact that he had the cheek to say it to your face – well… Is that the kind of man you really want to be with??? Someone who clearly thinks he’s above you?
Whether he’s EU or self-sabotaging you can’t ignore your gut feelings on this matter. It’s only been 2 months, so it’s not too late to pull the plug on this and leave with your self esteem and dignity in tact.
Good luck!
x
Elgie R.
on 22/02/2016 at 8:20 pm
Christine, run away from this “relationship” now.
Ok…he’s physically attractive. We ladies are suckers for good looks, we make all kinds of allowances when they look good. You do not have to turn this into a full blown “relationship”. He can be a no-sex date – movies, food outings, stuff like that. Do not continue to have sex with a man who tosses verbal insults at you. That is NOT ok. You cannot break him out of that habit. What good is a forced apology?? He will only toss off another verbal slight at some other occasion.
I suspect that if you look under the financial covers, he is not rescuing his Mom, she is rescuing him….meaning her money is helping him out more than his money is helping her. ACs love to portray themselves as “noble”.
When he said he was too good for you, you should have agreed and said goodbye. Would’ve thrown him for a real loop. He was baiting you…trying to get you to fight for him. Not because he wants to know if you care, but because he has a huge ego that needs to be stroked constantly. Too much trouble if you ask me.
Why are you walking on eggshells for this man? He is not your “last chance”…don’t treat him like he is.
christine
on 22/02/2016 at 8:15 pm
Thank you Rachel:
I do think he has issues, that’s for sure…im hoping that with me communicating with him about the way he talks to me he will “see the errors of his ways”. It just burns me that he would be so flipped…I mean really…that’s an awful thing to say to someone, especially a female that your trying to court. I just don’t know if that is really what this is all about…I don’t know if it is that he wants to court me or if he just wants to hurt someone because he feels hurt deep down inside. He’s told me that in the past women either liked him or didn’t…im tending to lean on the side of didn’t…
millie
on 23/02/2016 at 10:12 am
Rachel, I feel you need to make a swift exit. Dating in the first few months is about having fun and a discovery/fact finding exercise we know thanks to Nat! You have discovered in 2 months you can not relax, he does to value you, you are beneath him. So at 6-12 months plus he will really treat you like dirt and all this from a man in his 40’s who says he is capable of looking after his mother but not a 2 month old girl friends feels! Go -there are plenty more frogs to meet before your prince arrives I think x
millie
on 23/02/2016 at 10:14 am
girl friends feelings not feels!
christine
on 23/02/2016 at 4:20 pm
Thank you ladies…I appreciate all the replies…im going to test out the waters a little while longer…if in the next 30 days things don’t get better, I mean as far as him being more attentive to me and caring for my feelings than im going to cut the cord. I ended a 10 year relationship 7 months ago because I realized that I was turning into someone that I didn’t like anymore, my attitude was changing into one that was being cold and hard and found myself being on the receiving end of grabbing, pushing and in your face yelling and screaming including hours of verbal tyraides. I definitely don’t want to return to a relationship like that, hoping and hoping that a man is going to change, when I know they don’t. If anything I should have learned that I need to take a man at face value…and determine at that point if I want that that in my life.
Sophie
on 05/03/2016 at 3:42 am
I completely agree with this and just wrote about sometning similar. Time as an individual is so important. Great advice.
Daniela
on 12/03/2016 at 8:09 am
To sacrifice or not, it’s been a difficult question for me to answer.
In a couple weeks I’ll be graduating with my Bachelor’s Degree and by the end of the summer I’ll be confronted to answer this question.
The relationship I have with my boyfriend is passionate and beautiful. I’ve never been so intimate physically and emotionally with anyone.
But he is from Europe and I’m from Canada. We’ve been in a long distance relationship for several months now and he’s hoping I’ll move my life to be with him in his home country after graduation. I’m willing to give it a try for a couple months, but truthfully I don’t want to do it. I don’t want to learn a new language, say goodbye to my friends and family and struggle to build a career for myself – all for him. I don’t doubt he will try to make it up to me, but I don’t except him to either.
SOS. Any insights?
Cinnamon
on 12/03/2016 at 1:39 pm
I believe you have already answered your own question Daniela.
Did he move to your Country to study ?
I understand your situation as I found myself in a similar situation after our degrees completed. We met at University in UK, I am English he was from the Far East. We spent 5 years together, where I even followed him to his second University for a Masters in my Country. After his graduation he could not stay here to live or work so he went back home for good. He asked me many times for me to join him 7000 miles away.
It did cause a huge headache and much heart ache thinking it through as you are now. I also gave up a lot just to be with him for his Masters. So much so I lost myself.
Needless to say it would not have worked if I had followed him to his homeland for so many reasons (language, religion, cultural differences, family etc). Yet he seemed to get along just fine here.
So with heavy heart we parted ways after 6 months of LDR. Looking back it was for the best but I should have ended it sooner.
You are right to think carefully about family, friends, language, cultural issues, and the distance from your homeland. He is asking you to give up everything. It is your sacrifice as you say, not his.
It is hard but you know in your heart what will work for you. Listen to your inner voices and concerns, don’t ignore them.
Samuel-James
on 30/03/2016 at 6:05 pm
IV only just found this site through desperation! Apologies in advance there are so many pages this may be better suited to but here goes…. In regards to sacrifice! I’m 26 years old and have bee with my 24yo boyfriend for 4 years. I moved in with his parents….. 3 YEARS AGO!!! I absolute love him to death but despite making constant efforts to convince him to move out (IV compromised again and said we can live in the same town) he hasn’t done anything to look for a better paid job and makes continual excuses. Now im greatful to his parents for letting me stay so long however the way they live (incredibly dis functional, messy house, his mother is emotionally and mentally extreamly troubled, house wife that actually does no house hold ‘duties’ despite the allowance from her husband to do so) has after 3 years taken its toll on my mental health. At this point I have been diagnosed with chronic generalised anxiety and depression. I have sacrificed my mental health to be with the person I love (he’s a wonderful loving partner) but we don’t have a normal relationship in his house. Due to his dad’s traditional views we aren’t able to share a bed (so for 3 years of a 4 year relationship) we havnt been allowed to share a bed. His mother is incredibly manipulative and plays on his good nature etc. I’m going back there tomorrow after a trip home to put a plan together to leave the house and move back to my parents for a little while before I sort a new place to live. I desperately don’t want to leave him but I can’t live in their house anymore it’s killing me!
Veracity
on 30/03/2016 at 11:16 pm
“We can only go to the limits of ourselves. Anything more and we give too much away. Then we’re not good for anyone” Paula McLain
Recognize that you have this vulnerability (and learn why), figure out those folks that exploit this vulnerability in you (users/takers), dump them/limit time with them and be your own best friend. Once I learned that I was betraying/sabotaging myself every time I over gave (and enabling the other person), it helped me to stop. It hurts everyone involved, it’s a lose-lose situation. Now I practice having my own back (being my best friend) and if they leave because of it, they were going to leave eventually. Better find this out sooner. If your parent(s), family are like this, it is very challenging because they will try to wear you down, often very cruelly to go back to sacrificing, but it’s worth it to hold firm in your limits! Now I ask myself, what would my best friend say to me about this situation/what would I say to my best friend, then I do it!
I have been terrified of risk, taking risks on behalf of myself. Now I have learned that I will risk everything to save myself as opposed to sacrificing myself to save myself.
It feels amazing! Liberating!
Sarah
on 04/04/2016 at 6:14 am
he was a his ex girlfriend for 6 years and they were the awful 6 years of his life. everybody hated her, he left everyone including his friends and family just to please her and be with her…. since the beginning he knew it was a wrong relationship… however he was attached sexually to her ONLY….
after 3 months of the break up, we met and we have the best 10 months of our entire life…. everybody loves me and i am sure he does too… cause everyone is showing me how happy and comfortable he is with me … he verbalized it many times… how happy and in love with me and we are going to get married soon… BUT.. he still cannot be with me sexually….. HELP
Am I sacrificing a lot of myself if I stayed with him to get over her ????…cause i am sure his heart and mind are with me
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Beautiful Natalie. As usual ???? perfect timing.
Kind of feeling like this applies to my situation right now. Dating someone for just over a year… Turns out he has absolutely zero interest in sex. (I’m talking four times in the last year… Tough for those us whose primary love language is touch!). Lately this has extended to no cuddling, making out..nothing other than chaste kisses or an occasional hug.
When I try to talk about it, he apologizes, said he asked me before if it was a deal breaker (this was back when we were having sex mind you)… But really offers nothing in the way of ideas for solutions.
I also feel like he has been taking advantage of my generosity while he was out of work for a couple months (stayed at my house, ate my food, used my utilities- returned the favour in about $70 worth of groceries). He’s been working for about a month now and is still here all the time. Hasn’t offered to pay a cent except if he and I go out for dinner. He makes about 3x what I do when he is working.
He wants to move in together… And I am feeling like I should pull up stakes and run !
So I’m not sure if I am letting my EU nature get in the way so I don’t have to try or if it is my instincts pushing me in the right direction…. I know the whole situation is dragging my self esteem down and I have spent YEARS post divorce bringing it back up. This is not new behaviour for me (saying nothing when things are cheesing me off), but I don’t know Where to start to fix it.
In my experience that inside voice telling you to run is telling you for a reason. Ignore at your own peril.
Of course he wants to move in with you. He has you on a string being his mother and is giving you crumbs in return. Kick this parasite to the kerb and go find an adult.
Boof, a love partner is meant to add to your joy and peace, not make you feel taken advantage of and corrode further your self esteem. Moving in together is not a good idea (and if this is the one thing that you are needing to voice) make it clear that he is needing to find his own place asap because you will no longer be there (servicing his own needs and wants). I think a year is more than sufficient to seeing clearly that this guy is not the one for you.
I mean a love partner capable of only occassional hugs and a peck on the cheek pretty much?! Definitely not on. Don’t be accepting of crumbs Boof nor let him single-handedly pilot this relationship that is requiring a two-person effort. Take time out for yourself in search of yourself where you work on speaking up for yourself because Boof you are so lovingly worthy and you so matter!!
Drop the guy and run!! He seems to like having you around as a comfy cushion but doesn’t bring anything to the table. It’s been a year and you’ve only been intimate 4 times?!! There’s seriously something wrong with this guy. I think talking this out and you being the only one trying to fix things is a waste of your energy. Nat would say…flush!! Move on and forget him. You deserve so much better and you know it. You have all the answers already. All the best of luck!
Boof what worries me is even if you have a sit-down and talk it through with him about his staying in your house long-term, you’ll be put in a position where you have to ‘make’ him contribute half of everything because he has proven he won’t step up of his own accord. That’s a terrible start.
Boof,
You do sound like a loving,generous and caring person. You also seem to know that the guy is unloving, uncaring, a user and does not give a damn about your feelings. Allow him to move in and he will suck you dry financially,emotionally and will leave you with zero selfesteem. Run Goof and never return. Worst case scenario is when he’s sucked you dry until you have nothing else to give (materialwise and emotionally) then he leaves for another martyr. His kind do that. You do not want that. You deserve better. Good luck in choosing you.
Sounds to me as though you know the answer…..choosing a partner is one of the most important choices you make in you life. And, you have to accept the person that you see in front of you 100%. Do you accept this man and his behaviour as you see it today? Know that your are lovable and worthy and choose well!
Boof, why do you need to hear someone else tell you that your instincts are right? That is the elephant in the room – your lack of belief in yourself, your lack of belief that your evaluation of things is CORRECT.
You said it all right here: I also feel like he has been taking advantage of my generosity while he was out of work for a couple months (stayed at my house, ate my food, used my utilities- returned the favour in about $70 worth of groceries). He’s been working for about a month now and is still here all the time. Hasn’t offered to pay a cent except if he and I go out for dinner. He makes about 3x what I do when he is working.
He wants to move in together… And I am feeling like I should pull up stakes and run !
Run, Boof. RUN!
How will you feel should you find out that he has been getting his sex elsewhere the whole time? See, in your mind, you’ve decided he has a low sex drive and you are sacrificing your drive for the sake of some “greater good” (which totally eludes me)…but, as is often the case, when we are sacrificing what we really want in order to live by someone else’s game plan, that other person is not sacrificing ANYTHING.
The universe is screaming at you to heed your instincts. There’s more for you elsewhere.
Hi Boof,
Yes, PLEASE listen to your inner voice and send that loser packing! I finally divorced the massive parasite infestation that I was married to for 17 years, but not until he had strip-mined me down to nothing. A male friend of mine once said, “Man Rule #1: PULL. YOUR. WEIGHT. If your woman is pulling your weight for you, then you’re either a pimp or a child!”
At very least, say that you need a break and then don’t see him for a few weeks or months and take note of how you feel after you are no longer being used as a boarding house. (And I second Elgie’s suspicion that he may be taking the edge off his sex drive elsewhere….)
Boof,
“He makes about 3x what I do when he is working.”
Imagine how much he will be able to save for “himself” after he moves in with you, before of course moving out to be with someone else who will probably be thinking “what a responsible man he is to have saved that much.”
Not like you haven’t already heard it all from the lovely ladies up top! plus if you own your home, you’re getting a ‘tenant’ and maybe getting some legal messes in evicting him later.
For me the red flag thats been a bandana on your head so long you’ve normalized it is – no sex. Whats the point then? No sex, a guy that eats your food, wants to split the rent or live rent free (?), and occasionally gives you a chaste kiss. You’re better off with a roommate or a dog.
I wouldn’t even discuss this with him. My guess is you want to ‘fix it’. and this fellow will run circles around you sucking you into another year of the most tepid relationship ever…
Run run run away. And learn how to be single. I don’t mean that in a mean way – I’ve been reading some blogs about gender and society and etc and I’m just so — mad. I’m spitting mad. Nearly every story of withholding sex that I have heard involves the man withholding – and it is painful as all hell. Even if you decide you’re asexual too – you need to dump someone that doesn’t pay for their share of everyday expenses. And what have you learnt in life that makes you so willing to put up with nothing? THese are not even crumbs. This is the ghost crumb from a ghost sandwich of a tepid guy that hardly exists.
Boof,
It is very clear that you two do not want the same things. There are so many red flags. Get out now while you can fairly easily, and do not move in with him.
If you have a shady relationship past and you start getting that old “familiar” feeling, RUN. I also recommend Natalie’s book Mr. Unavailable and the FallbackGirl via Amazon (I like the hard copy so I can make notations).
That book saved my life.
It seems like this is this guy’s pattern (and maybe yours, and he does this because he can get away with it, perhaps unconsciously), albeit irrespective of his intent, the negative consequences to you are still the same.
There are too many available, good, generous, wonderful, warm, and caring men out there who are sensitive to women’s needs and want to copilot an affectionate, giving, and generous relationship.
Hold out for one of them.
XX Take Care and sending courage your way, Jennifer
Do not move in with this man.
What are you doing to yourself! Your allowing and enabling him! If this isn’t a case of self sacrifice then I don’t know what is! Don’t settle, you deserve better.
He’s just using you. Of course he would like to move in with you so you’ll continue to take care of most of his responsibility. That inner voice is trying to warn you to remove yourself from this situation immediately.
Thank you so much for writing this.
I just broke off a 3 1/2 month relationship with a really nice, sweet, solid man. He was, for all intents and purposes, perfect boyfriend material. He was successful, handsome, kind, sent me flowers twice in two months and bought cards and gifts. He always paid when he took me out, was always available from the first day we met and he made me a priority in his life. I even got a good morning and good night text or phone call every single day. Sounds great right? Yes, on paper, he was great but, emotionally we were on two different pages completely. Our conversations revolved around (mostly his) work and kids and family and friends. Things rarely got deep or intimate and, in the last month we were together, it was becoming clear to me that he just wasn’t capable of giving me more in the intimacy department. And you know what? I need more! I need hot make out sessions on the couch every once in a while (not just missionary sex in the bed) and I need big bear hugs and eye contact and some emotional intensity. I need to talk about my hopes and dreams and fears and I want to know his. I need passion….not all the time of course but a little goes a long way.
So….because I don’t want to sacrifice that part of myself, that need for a deep, meaningful relationship, I broke up with him today. True to form, he was very respectful and kind and he basically patted me on the shoulder and asked if we could be “friends”. I said sure and I walked away knowing I will probably never see him again. And you know what? That’s A-OK because I am still me and I know what I want and I will wait until I find it, or until it finds me. 🙂
P.S. – The girl that I was 2 years ago after going through a devastating divorce would have held on tight to that man if it weren’t for blogs like this (and lots of therapy…ha!) Here’s to emotional growth and learning to love yourself! It’s a beautiful thing. <3
Beautiful Elizabeth! You stayed true to yourself and stuck to your guns, way to go. I love reading posts like yourself where you’ve weighed up the options and followed through on what essentially is a very good and informed decision on your part for your purposeful self in life. It’s super great that you clearly know your intimate ways that is not going to be compromised. Keep learning and growing and continuing to love yourself every moment of every day. Smiles from me.
Gina,
Thank you! To be completely honest, I was looking for a bit of validation in writing that. I mean, damn he was so nice and it felt so good to have someone check in with me and make time for me every single day. But I am no longer ok with safe and comfortable. When he was so nice about the breakup today I wanted to shake him just so I could get some emotion out of him. But, alas, there were no tears or pleadings for me to stay. Just smiles and politeness. So aggravating. Oh well….I can’t make anyone love me, nor do I want to.
I am so proud of you it is really hard when everything seems so right at the time to make a decision to end things, but you did that takes a strong person.
Hello Elizabeth,
Thank you for sharing your story! I am similarly in the process of splitting with a man who by any standard would ostensibly rank within the top 85th if not 90th percentile of “highly desirable mates” (decent, responsible, financially secure, attractive, successful in a “glamour industry”, among other positive attributes). While he is decent (read: “socially correct”) to me on a surface level, he makes it clear with his frequent and effusive criticism and judgment that he does not like who I am, and I keep feeling as if he is trying to flatten me down into a cardboard cutout prop that he can paint over with whatever he wants me to be instead.
While I clearly hear my inner voice saying, “(buzzer sound) NOPE! Not this one!” and am prepared to walk (in fact, I did just that last fall, but he reeled me back in), I still sometimes doubt myself and think, “Am I just being silly and sabotaging something that to all outward appearances looks like a very good thing?”
P.S. This thing was pretty much DOA anyway since it was “stacked” on top of the marriage I just ended, i.e., much too soon to be starting something new…and make no mistake, it was HIS idea!!
Brenda,
All I can tell you is the sense of relief that I have felt since ending it is overwhelming. What exactly are you holding on to? Are you happy?
Thanks again, Elizabeth! Excellent questions….
While this is pretty low-key as “relationships” go…more of a FWB thing, and the “benefits” are indeed nice (sex is great, he pays for my salon treatments that I cannot afford amidst the post-divorce disaster recovery, I get to hang out with major rock stars, etc.)…I recognize that it is yet another case where I am voluntarily subjecting myself to a systematically invalidating environment, although some of that is due to my own issues. On the other hand, this is so much better than the relationship I just ended…in certain respects…that I often wonder if this is just a process he and I need to go through in learning how to communicate with each other and building intimacy. What keeps kicking my intuition into DEFCON 3 mode however is my sense that the relationship is fundamentally unbalanced, and my frustration with the way he communicates with me. Then again, I’m sure I trigger him in various ways too.
What am I holding onto? At the surface level, he serves as a convenient “human shield” against my psycho ex. Additionally, it has been very helpful to me to be close to a highly successful person and get to see what the M.O. looks like. It has also been an interesting experience getting to explore learning to show up and be vulnerable and communicate directly and authentically and assert boundaries in an intimate relationship under conditions where I feel safe and comfortable doing so (I have known this man for over 30 years but we have never been intimate before).
As I mentioned above, I had tried to do the right thing and broke up with him a few months ago, and when he reeled me back in I did my best to temper his expectations by communicating that I’m willing to go along for the ride if he wants to continue dating me while I am in EU-Rebound Limbo (a condition he does not even believe in!), but I feel pretty certain that at some point I am going to want to venture out of the kiddie pool and try the open ocean.
So I wonder: am I benefitting from getting to explore a different kind of relationship than the hot mess I just left (i.e., experiencing being a “kept woman”, albeit at the price of being “kept small”), and learn to use the skills I am developing from being part of the BR community; or is this just keeping me EU?
Am I happy? Last spring I was really starting to get traction in recovering from the divorce and test my wingspan preparing for lift-off in my new and exciting life as a single girl (I’d been dating the new guy for just a few months at that point and had made it clear that I was not ready for a committed relationship), and then the ex showed up and completely disrupted that process, which threw me into a really bad depressive funk that I am finally pulling out of in fits and starts, so all I can really say that the current relationship contributes is that while I enjoy aspects of it, it is nonetheless occupying a sizeable tranche of my mental and emotional bandwidth that I could repurpose toward my continuing recovery….
Perhaps that is my answer?
Brenda K,
What you write reminds me so much of a friend of mine. Let’s call her Brenna. Brenna didn’t want to be alone and was always dramatically balancing and juggling men, including a controlling ex husband. She often told men of her controlling ex, her unbalanced state, her un-made mind… Ohhh but she could ‘fall in love so easily’ and it was glorious to have so much attention in the form of stalking, proposals, begging, and even an “our first Christmas together” ornament from one of them. One was arrested in front of her; one was a hoarder; one went on vacation with his ex-wife (couldn’t disappoint the college aged kids) and one was homeless and in rehab. And these men they put up with all HER drama in exchange for her love (attention and sex). Beautiful, smart, educated, professional Brenna never went without a man. She attended weddings, parties, and vacations. But Brenna didn’t REALLY love these men. One called her 75 times at work and choked her. He didn’t mean it. One had a history of soliciting prostitutes. Oh, but men have needs. They all justified crappy behavior. Bottom line, they were all WRONG for her and she was in no right state for dating/relationships as even flaming red flags just provided some background ambience for her. FFWD: Brenna married again two years ago. She married a man who put up with triangulation. She confided in me some things he said, which TO ME would have been outright deal breakers. She married him even after pleading with me, ‘please don’t let me marry this man.’ So, she is not alone and never really has been. She will pretend she never uttered those words. She will show the world that she is happy. I suppose part of her is, but deep down, I think she sold herself out. Please don’t sell out. Using men as human shields keeps you from truly figuring yourself out. Distraction from fear and hard work. You sound like you have so much going for you. What is it that you feel you’re missing?
Hi Brenda,
He is your crutch and a bit of comfort right now so you have some benefits that you like. It is better than your last relationship you say but it is still crumbs. It could still lead to an erosion of your self esteem especially further on down the line. Why not dumb him and start yourself on the road to sobriety from being EU so than eventually you can be available and enjoy a real relation based on mutual love and respect ! x
Elizabeth you have come to the right place (super Nat and her super wonderful BR team) for validation and nothing wrong with seeking/asking for validation as there is even more strength in numbers. Yes you are correct in that we can’t force anyone to love us yet we are beings that inherently are to be loved in return so keep that expectation going for yourself.
Yes safe and comfortable is for the safe and comfortable (nothing wrong with that if that is what one is after) although your passionate self clearly wasn’t settling for that with the now ex. Nah you are better getting it off with someone alive who is emotionally available. Sorry I had to chuckle when you said there was no reaction to the break up on his part….emotionally aloof to the end. I think this may have warranted one of those very business-like shake his hand moment on your part.
Grieve the loss of what you had wished for the relationship, and keep it moving. Take risks, have fun, be creative, and go nuts on life 🙂
Bravo Elizabeth! 🙂
I was recently in a similar situation with a guy who was perfect on paper but never shared any details of his life with me (barring work) until I’d get fed up and complain about it. Then it would still be like getting blood out of a stone! He never initiated dates/calls, never offered to take me out, rarely told me I looked pretty, sex became lackluster and non-existent and yet, for some bizarre reason, even though I knew we were going nowhere, I believed I had to do more to get things “back on track”, so I loaned him some money for parking tickets and played the supportive girlfriend when he accused me of behaving otherwise.
It was a BIG mistake to involve money in such an unstable ‘situationship’. It was like I’d somehow rewarded him for being a crappy boyfriend! Yet I still got nothing back for my efforts – not even a date.
So, please listen to us ladies and follow your instincts! The moment that parasite has his feet under your table, your unhappiness will multiply.
not sure if nat has written on this but wondering if anyone has any advice for embarking on a boundaried relationship with someone with whom you may defacto have to sacrifice more for because they have a mental or physical illness? i am talking about cases where the person is truly respectful, consistent etc and you have only started dating them and are at the stage of deciding whether to progress to a relationship.
i’m in the early stages of dating a guy who shared with me two months into dating that he has a serious, recurrent mental illness. he has had a hospitalization for it five years ago now, but he is in treatment and seems to have his life on track. i have only known him for a few months and there have not been any red flags so far and i have not really had a chance to see him in any very stressful situations so i don’t really have a good guage for how “bad” he is when he is in a relapse. his illness seems to be cyclical with some relapses worse than others but he usually gets through them working with his therapist and friends/family support.
i don’t want to stigmatize him, everyone deserves a chance at love and happiness even if they have an illness but i also don’t want to set myself up to be a sacrificial lamb during the times he may check out of not only my life but his own. at this stage i would not have any other reservations about progressing our dating but wonder what i can do to approach this smartly if i decide to go ahead . i just met him , so i do not have that love or anything bonding me to him but i do want to try it as he seems to share my values and it feels good being around him, but i don’t want my trial to end with ME getting a mental illness diagnosis.
Kookie,
I really appreciated reading your comment as there is quite a bit of stigmatizing going on with regards to the mentally ill, whether it is simple depression or much more complicated issues. I have worked in treatment facilities/human services organizations for quite awhile and have quite a bit of training/experience working with the mentally ill, although I am in no way a licensed therapist or clinical psychologist.
I can say from personal experience that one of the most functional relationships I’ve had was with a man who was diagnosed bipolar. He got treatment for it early and was managing his illness, taking meds every day, and had an overall well-developed understanding of his mood swings, triggers, and how to deal with them. I would say that the key things to look for are if the person you are considering a relationship with a.) acknowledges their illness and b.) is proactive about seeking treatment/managing their condition. Therapy and medications are not red flags in and of themselves. I would be more concerned about an individual who is not actively seeking treatment for whatever their issue(s).
Beware that some people, as with abusive individuals, will use therapy to manipulate and/or try to con their therapist. It happens more often than you might think. Not knowing the specifics of what your prospective SO’s diagnosis is, it is difficult to give specific advice to your situation. However, I would say in general that if the person is honestly seeking treatment/aware of [insert issue here] and is actively working towards a healthy lifestyle (whatever that means for him or her), you should have nothing to worry about. You did mention that it is early days yet, so I would proceed cautiously. If the individual has honest intentions, they should be willing to proceed at the pace you set and respect your wishes.
Again, I really appreciated your comment. Those suffering from a mental health condition do deserve to live full and happy lives and, yes, that includes a relationship if that is what he/she desires. I hope my remarks have been of some help to you and I would be happy to try and answer any other questions as best I can.
Thanks of the input Freedom, some very good points. My guy has Borderline Personality Disorder which I have been reading more about online on forums and in journals etc . When I started reading the descriptions of the disorder online , I freaked out! it sounded really bad which is so opposite to what has been my experience with him. I don’t want to end things merely because he has this diagnosis. He is seriously one of the kindest, driven people I have ever dated ( granted , I’ve dated some serious EUM cases). I know that he is disordered but ,so far, the way he interacts with me has been nothing but healthy and so different from any relationship I have had so far as a fallback girl. I agree with the proceed with caution advice. I think I will do just that , one thing reading Nat has equipped me with is feeling more confident that I can walk away from things when the red flags pop up and not feel so scared to try . It’s good to keep future challenges in mind but it’s not happening yet and hopefully I read the signs if they ever do come up. I think I will have to see when we are faced with a challenge/conflict how he handles that with me , we haven’t really had any yet and i think for me that will be crucial in my decision to enter a relationship. Thank you for the bit about if he has honest intentions we will respect my pace, my plan rests on waiting for something bad to happen ( naturally , not me creating a test) and then deciding if I want to proceed but I hadn’t considered how to confidently handle a conversation about pace if he brought up becoming my boyfriend up first before anything happens. Have to keep reminding myself it’s only a relationship anyways and I am not marrying the man I am free to reevaluate at each stage and opt put as I go along.
Acknowledging their condition and seeking treatment are key. Mental illness ripped one of my relationships apart. My ex had always struggled with depression and anxiety, and I was always aware and did what I could to be supportive and there for him. But eventually he slipped into a serious depressive state and completely shut down emotionally. It’s a powerless feeling, seeing somebody you love slip away from you like that and being unable to help them. However, even though he knows he has depression, he refuses to see a doctor or seek treatment. He won’t practice any sort of self care, either. He won’t eat healthy, exercise, or get on a normal sleep schedule. So while his mental illness wasn’t a deal breaker for me, the fact that he refuses to do anything about it was. It was beginning to drag me down into my own depressed state. So as long as you know what you’re getting yourself into, and know that he not only openly admits to his illness but also tries to manage it, I wouldn’t rule out a relationship with him. But being involved with somebody who struggles in that way can be very challenging.
Kookie,
People with mental illness deserve lovin’ too. But he has a built in excuse to check out, flip out and otherwise disrespect you. Your good days will be decent, but baby doll, whew, your bad days will be HORENDOUS, take it from me. If he stays on his meds, he will be manageable material, off meds, run fast, run and don’t look back.
Is it his fault? No, but his mental illness captures his brain, and he can say anything hurtful and unforgettable by you in his “demon” state (and they all have one). Please consider to go very slow, think on this: would you want to raise a son with this mental illness?
Stay in his life and be a super friend either way, but if you marry, people with mental illness are often abusive to children later, they don’t mean it, but they often are. Just some things to consider for later if you get serious about this one.
At least he is diagnosed properly and has a chance to manage his issues. Many men are never properly diagnosed and just wreck havoc on an unsuspecting world….
“but if you marry, people with mental illness are often abusive to children later” Respectfully, this is a stereotype and a potentially harmful one at that. Yes, some individuals with mental illness ARE abusive to their children. Many are not. As many as one in four adults in America today suffer from some form of diagnosable mental illness. Mental illness is an extremely broad category and covers a huge range of different diagnoses. Also, many abusers (including wife beaters) are *not* mentally ill and of sound mind, though many might think otherwise to observe their behaviors.
FTR, I did not say 100% of the people with a mental illness are going to be in a relationship and 100% abusive all of the time. And no statistic can determine if your mentally ill boyfriend, uncle or father will be abusive or not. Obviously, people without any hint of mental illness can also exhibit abuse to a loved one. I was only intimating that with mental illness, there is a slightly to greater likelihood that the mental illness may trigger some abuse. And there is no statistic that can determine this, the only statistic that can 100% tell you if you will suffer abuse from someone with a mental illness is if you are in an intimate personal, familial or romantic relationship with that person, and sometimes it is “too late” to determine if you will yourself suffer abuse or not as it happens very slowly.
I am glad that the statistics are available online for people to review, but as for me, I have only my experience with family members and bf’s with mental illness and I speak 100% from experience. That is the only statistic that matters.
I wish someone had told me about this, I had to find out for myself and experience the damage for myself. So, I am sure the mental illness statistics are equally important….
I dated someone who was quite depressed – they were improving but still would sometimes just check out. Having some experience with this myself, I felt closer to him, we could discuss it and I knew how to deal with him in those times. Note – he did not know how to deal with me if I was having a bad day. So already the imbalance had set in. As women, we anyway are taught to be more considerate, thoughtful, listening, understanding and putting-up-with-crap.
So — there were some other problems in the relationship as well. Eventually he pulled some spectacular b.s., I think to self-sabotage and destroy the relationship. I backed away, and broke up soon after.
My take – if you’re in a situation where you have to be very nice to someone as a pre-condition, they quickly come to resent it. You’d think they’ll find you’re such a great catch since you understand them and will put up with them, but the danger is they will not see that all. Forget gratitude – you will get resentment.
Plus it makes me wonder if you’re going out on a limb because somewhere this mental illness makes you feel like you’re flawed and now he’s flawed so you feel more comfortable. You feel you’re broken, and if he’s broken too then you’re equal. So the odds of your resenting him are also possible.
This is not to say that those with mental illnesses don’t ‘deserve’ love. The question is whether your mental health will suffer giving them that. What do you deserve? To be treated well, to be appreciated. If this person can do that, fine. If they are used to using their illness to extract concessions that they don’t give to others, then you’re setting yourself up for heartache.
That said – this was hardly my worst relationship. Usually the narcs and ACs are not seen as mentally ill. So… I guess my view is that it can be fine while it lasts, but that there is an imbalance built in which will cause strain.
Thanks Suki all very helpful thoughts,
Hmm hadn’t thought of the feeling aligned to him because he is also broken. I think that is true in a way, part of my great respect for him comes not from that he is broken but that he is broken and working his ass off everyday to stay healthy and on top of it , as I am. Of course, in spite of both of our respective work and daily efforts we may both sometimes fall into our unhealthy patterns and I guess we both have to be aware enough to understand and allow the other to opt out , if my emotional unavailability old habits and/or his mental illness habits hinder the relationship enough. Neither of us is going to get a “free pass” because of our struggles . I think the difficulty will be in the actual line setting and avoid a “one false move” kind of stressful anticipation in our relationship, waiting for the other to mess up, which doesn’t sound like much fun. He and I don’t sit and talk for hours about our individual struggles , we mostly just have a great time, enjoying life but I am trying to set up enough of a foundation that when times get rough for either of us the channels of communications and boundaries will be established. Don’t yet know the exact details of how I can do this but I will try.
thanks adele! i was raised in a home with an alcoholic father, who was not diagnosed and definitely not getting any help so I can definitely appreciate the havoc that a mentally ill person can bring to my life. proceeding very very cautiously but at the same time continue to get to know someone who I care for very much. If I decided to not continue dating him or if for some other reason we decided not to progress the relationship I think we would be able to establish a good friendship at some point if he didn’t do anything really bad to me by then
Hi there,
My ex-boyfriend wanted me to move in with him and his daughter. He lives above his mother who cooks and washes for them. I am a person who is very independant and who has lived in several countries for years. I could not imagine myself living above my partner’s mother. But for the sake of our relationship I gave in and wanted to give it a try. Before I did, I once had asked him what compromises he was willing to make and what I would get out of this after me sacraficing so much. He answered “you’ll get love”.
That was the moment when I pulled back and said good bye!
Kerstin,
Way to go in dodging that bullet! Surely mommy was getting older and less capable of completing his housework to the level of his demands, so he knew it was time to start grooming her replacement to be ready for when he’s worked her to death.
Cheers to avoiding becoming his next mommy-slave!
Nice one Kerstin, pathetic comeback really on his part i.e. you’ll get love…sheezz?! Co-dependency playing out with mother and son plus not a good example for his daughter to be witnessing. Glad you kept it moving and no longer involved in that dynamic.
Just thinking was the guy meaning you’ll get a shag for you’ll get love??? Sounds dodgy either way.
By the same token, when an EUM starts crowing about “everything he does for you” (aka ridiculous crumbs), they think they are “sacrificing” so much for you – which is your cue to run away.
Hey ladies,
I love how you all take the time to help one another. Wow! Women empowerment. To make it short I am need of some sort of advice or clarification. I’ve been in more than two handfuls of situationships with emotionally unavailable men and it seems like my past 4-5 years of dating and still being a single mom have cut me to the core. I feel like I’m constantly mourning the loss of people I was never in a relationship with and feeling so empty because of what comes with me an over-giver, people pleaser trying to convince man after man to see something they choose to close their eyes to.
After reading most of Natalie’s blogs, getting her books I can definitely say I’ve come a long way in regards to how I see myself because I can admit I had completely lost my self-worth. Although, I can’t seem to understand what in the world I’m doing wrong because I can’t seem to stop attracting these men.
Recently (a month ago to be exact) I met someone I felt I had so much in common with. The first week we went out on a date and talked and facetimed daily. I decided to have him over when I got back from vacation the following week and I trusted myself to take that next step with him. After spending a night together it didn’t feel like anything had changed communication wise. We continued to share intimacy and he continued to make plans every weekend to take me out on dates. Now this is where I’m starting to have doubts and my gut is telling me something is wrong.
It feels too casual. It’s only been a month but I feel no sense of progression. He calls and the conversations are brief and meaningless and he’s always distracted texting someone else or talking to his friends in the background. He hasn’t asked a single question about my past or expressed any interested in getting to know who I really am other than wanting to know what I ate for lunch or how my work day was. He makes promises to call and doesn’t, seems to initiate sex EVERYTIME we meet for a date – like give me a break sometimes. I finally had it and decided to express (via text message) how I really felt about him. Told him again that my intentions were to hopefully gain a relationship in the future…and that I’m not out here casually dating.
I decided to text because I felt like we never talk about us over the phone or in person and I just didn’t feel comfortable openly expressing that to him because that platform has never been opened and I thought I was probably overreacting anyways. I sent the text cause I felt like crap after leaving his house one morning. We barely spoke the entire night before and every time we spend time together I won’t hear from him for at least a day or two. I was also graduating and all I got was a “congrats” text message. His b/day came and as usual I went as far as getting him cake, wine and a card to make him feel appreciated and offered to take him out to dinner but he instead wanted to spend it with his friends. Valentines day came and left and he made no reference to it nor did he make any plans. In fact, I didn’t even hear from him that night.
Even when we go out on dinners we can literally sit and eat in silence unless I ask questions. Anyways, his reassurance to my text consisted of him telling me not to worry and that everything was going fine. He told me he was unsure of where we were going but he liked me and that’s all that matters. Went on to add I needed to relax and stop thinking too much (I hate it when men tell me that).
I feel stuck and used. From my experiences in the past I can almost predict how this will end. I text him last night asking why he avoids conversations about us and he responds he’s shy and says nothing more. He goes on to text me about the weather today completely disregarding my previous texts as usual. Anyways…I’m rambling… idk what this is.
Tired,
There is so much wrong it’s impossible to address everything. The high points:
He told you everything is going fine, because it is. For him. By not addressing your concerns, he is showing you his only priority: himself. He’s not concerned about your feelings, not in any way. Only a month in and he’s treating you this way? Yikes.
You feel used because he is using you. He is getting everything he wants: no-strings sex and attention. You are not getting what you want, and you won’t ever as long as you’re with him.
He will not change, except possibly to get worse in his behaviour. Soon you will find yourself doing his laundry for free. Run before this happens.
After you dump his ass, you might want to address the underlying issue. You don’t ‘attract’ these guys, you accept them. It sounds like you are EU yourself, & if you work on correcting this, you will have a greater chance at finding happiness.
Please see my response to you below 🙂
Crystal, Elgie R and Suki… thank you so much for that clarity. You’re right, he’s really only concerned about how he feels and he’s an expert with completely disregarding how I feel and what I want. I understand I might be attracting these sort because I stick around but I get stuck when it comes to dating because relationships don’t just happen overnight.
I mean, maybe he just needs time…maybe a month is too soon to rule him out. After all, the other EUM’s I dealt with lasted at least a minimum of 8 months. I get the man is in his 30s and he’s been in relationships but what if maybe, he just doesn’t know how this works? Sometimes I think I put much pressure on these men and end up ruining the likelihood of the relationship happening in the first place because of my doubts, insecurities and fears. What if this time it’s different?
I think we have great sexual chemistry but if you take out the sex I honestly couldn’t tell you what we had. I don’t get how a man would drive an hour 2-3 a week, take me out on dates, (oh and I should have mentioned he got me a perfume yesterday for no reason) call and text me…sparingly (even though the conversations are meaningless. I also should have mentioned he introduced me to his friends the night of his birthday as his “friend.” I couldn’t be mad because that’s what we are…we’re dating and we’re only friends. None of the emotionally unavailable men I dealt with in the past would have gone through such heights for some booty. They really don’t have to nowadays.
Could it be that maybe he’s emotionally immature? Maybe I need to be a little patient and keep my wants and needs bottled up inside since they only seem to be putting a damper on things. Maybe I over-think and over-rationalize and maybe I should just be going with the flow and see how things will play out. My intentions are genuine, they’ve always been. And I certainly would rather be very single than to date someone I have no future with because the only thing I want right now is a mutually fulfilling relationship.
He could just be trying to figure me out. I find it strange that he never compliments me…but maybe if he was I would really be head over heels for him. He’s managing down my expectations but what if it’s too soon for me to have them? 🙁
Tired,
No! No No No No No No.
He does know how this works. It’s not too early to have expectations. You made your feelings clear and he brushed them off. There’s really nothing to question. Except for the fact that you felt you couldn’t tell him how you feel, but had to text it to him. That’s really EU all around. It’s a great starting point for examining your own patterns, especially with all the new free time you’ll have after you get rid of him. There’s no need to waste any more time with him.
He has shown you who he is & what he wants. It doesn’t align with what you want. That’s all you need to know.
Tired, you are a booty call to this man. You had sex with him, and in your mind, it became a “relationship” at that time. You used the calendar and sex as hallmarks of a relationship, as in “ I waited a week after my vacation, we’ve talked every day, we go out every weekend”.
He, on the other hand, sees this as a sex barter situation, as in “ I pay for her meal and we have sex.”
There’s no relationship here, and no amount of pleading or whining or indignation on your part is going to turn it into a relationship.
We gotta stop thinking that men who have sex with us must have some love and care for us. I’m not saying that they don’t care in any way about us, but it often means we were just available and easy pickins.
Stop giving up sex as barter for a relationship. Just because you said “I don’t do casual” doesn’t mean HE doesn’t do casual. He is doing his best to keep things at the casual level. And you KNOW it.
@tired; I found the way you said ‘gain a relationship’ to be interesting. You don’t gain one, you participate in one, you are in one, you are an equal partner, a copilot as Nat would say. Are you perhaps being too passive? Why are you checking in meekly with this here guy if he wants something more? – do you really really really want something more? He sounds boring or bored, so if you do, then you have to ask yourself why you are settling for so less in life.
There is nothing wrong with this guy. You’re playing it casual, he’s giving it his casual best which is pretty tepid – I hope at least the sex is worth it. Now you say you want more – why? the conversation is boring, and he’s distracted. My guess is this …thing ..youre doing whatever it is has run its course. You’re reluctant to give up and go back to ‘single mom’ status since you’ve decided that as per society’s views, you’re somehow not good enough as a kick ass single mom but that even a tepid fool of a man on your arm will improve your status.
There is nothing wrong with him – yet. He seems in fact to be already pulling back which is sort of healthy since he doesn’t want more. Its not like he’s taking you to meet his family as narcs do, the day before they dump you.
So – drop this guy. And keep dating. Next time don’t feel like you have to convert every casual dating scene into a relationship. Your dignity is in your hands, every single time. And make sure that when you are having casual intimacy that you enjoy it. Thats the very least we can goddamn expect.
Suki wow… your words resonate. I responded to you but the comment looks like it went above yours. Yes, the sex is good and that’s probably why i’ve been a fool. I think about it and i’m almost inclined to stay a little longer but it’s not enough. And yes, if you asked me why I want to be with him… I would say because we have a lot in common…but you’re right. He’s boring…our communication is dead. I’ve never even had such great sexual intimacy with someone I can’t even talk to and i’m a talker. It’s so dry. Gosh maybe I want him because i’m tired of this chase? Tired of dating? I mean…no such thing as perfect…and i really have a hard time with casual arrangements. Like I can’t have casual sex. Every time he leaves i’m secretly crying myself to sleep and feeling like shit. I have to jump into the shower and scrub away so hard it’s strange. But once the emotional connection is there…I enjoy it and I don’t feel ‘used.’
I’m clearly a wreck.
The emotional connection is weak, you are making it more than it is – which is what I used to do also. He should only have you on his mind, and his friends are the best option when it matters most.
Don’t throw good energy after bad, I know it is hard to move on, but NC is a good option right now, especially since you are his gal-pal and he could not be bothered with Valentine’s Day just past. If any “fixing” would have been appropriate, it would have been then, and he blew it so flush. Cry as you are flushing, but you are better than all of this, and he can go back to his friends for a warm towel if that is what he needs now.
Tired, no man you date is ever your last chance saloon (I really like this saying by Nat…last chance saloon). Don’t ever get tired of desiring the type of relationship you are after (you may have to go through a hundred guys to land a decent one) as the moment you do this is what you are going to get with what you are now experiencing with current guy.
Take time out for yourself after letting this guy go and see what really is going on inside of you. Leaving will be no skin off his nose and I kind of (minimally) feel sorry for him (and men like him) simply cruising on in life forging no real and lasting relations….a rolling stone gathers no moss saying come to mind.
Align yourself back to your kick ass value of no casual relationships as I think the internal battle stems from going against what you hold true for yourself.
The more I read these responses the more I realize that these men are pretty sad creatures since they can’t feel their own emotions. It’s like being color-blind. The older they get the worse they get. The beginning of a relationship should be FUN and what we want is normal. It makes me nuts when they act busier or better than — they know deep down theyre not.
My guy was emotionally and sexually withholding. He was so emotionally immature at 47 (never lived with anyone or had a long term loving relationship). But he was so hot and the sex was incredible (when he decided) which really pissed me off and he knew it. I broke ‘it’ off 3 times and now I am alone but at least I am not going nuts trying to figure him out. He KNOWS he wasn’t good enough for me and his withholding had to do with not letting me get to know him cuz he knew if I did, I’d get tired or scared shit of his weirdness. I only miss the ‘idea’ of him and who I tried to wish him to be. Lonliness can make us try to create people that really don’t exist and then we’re disappointed when they don’t show up as them. No matter what though, being alone is always better than not being yourself…
Tired,
I thought for a moment that I wrote this, but two years ago!! The situation is so similar. It took my breath away. I am a single mom. When I started dating him I had been too tired of dating. I was 35 at the time and tired of trying and trying. I had been divorced for 8 years at the time and wanted a serious relationship.
What you describe about him sounds EXACTLY how our relationship was. Great sex, dry conversations, good laughs though, but no emotional connection. A lot of things in common, yes, but still, no connection. I dated him for a year. I felt I still did not know him a year after. It was like we were stuck in 1-3 month of the dating period. It was kind of cold and official. Like we were strangers. I tried getting close to him, open him up, opened up myself, of course, an open book I was from the start. He remained aloof. Of course two years later I see everything clearly. He kept me at a distance, casual, with one foot out of the door. He did hot and cold, push and pull strategy. I understand all of this only after living on Nat’s site, reading a lot of materials on psychology, self-help, abandonment recovery, grief, processing childhood trauma, and all of that, in addition to spiritual healing. I could tell you so much about all the things that kept me stuck. Last chance saloon mentality, incredible sexual chemistry, his intelligence, humor. My investment in him. His confusing “love you,” then “I am not sure,” and then all over again. The cold and hot behavior made me anxious, paranoid, insecure, nagging, and pathetic.
The most important thing from this relationship I learned is that why I allowed such person so deeply into my life. Why I didn’t walk away after 1-2 months when it was clear that the person would not commit and string me along until I let him. And he certainly did for an entire year until someone better came along (I think that’s what happened) and he said that I am not a person for him.
I learned a lot about myself.
It’s a long story. The main thing, it took me two years of healing, going back all the way to my childhood and all the other relationships to understand why I had such low self-worth, why I allowed to settle for less, dealt with his erratic, criticizing, disrespectful behavior. Why why why: these have been my last two years of self-discovery. I had a gradual but tremendous change thanks to Nat and BR readers and all the other resources.
Dear Tired, I recognize myself in you so much. The guy is clearly a user, but please look at what you did during this early discovery process. As far as your behavior: it’s obvious that you want a relationship and rush into it. You are fast forwarding it. I did the same exact thing. Always. I think you need to dump this user and when you date next time, take it very very slow and listen to your gut. Let it unfold slowly, don’t rush with sex. Sex clouds everything and we think we have this incredible connection. No we don’t.
I could go on and on and on.
I would say, step back and let him go. I know it’s hard although clearly you are not happy. Don’t let this stretch for months waiting that maybe he is not getting it yet. Maybe he doesn’t know how to have a relationship. That’s what I thought too about that guy. He had been only in one relationship that lasted 1,5 years and he was 34 when I met him. He never lived with anyone. So I waited and waited and waited. While he paid for my meals, wine, and the trip, for everything that we did. I exchanged with sex, “the love and connection” I thought we were having.
Protect yourself and leave the situation.
Read Nat’s articles about early dating and discovery phases. It’s really helpful.
I hope I am not too harsh. All with tough love, dear Tired. I was in your exact same shoes. Words for words.
Sophia I literally broke down reading from your response. I had to take breaks to catch my breath and stop the tears and continue reading. God knows the truth hurts and I can’t even deny it anymore…you’re right. Waiting another 2-3 months or even a year is only going to dig me deeper into an exact same hole I’ve been digging myself out of for years. I’m so tired of being alone why lie? It’s hard to avoid the sex when the connection is there early in dating for me because I so long without it and sometime back I used to equate sex with love. Now i’m constantly having to remind myself not to.
You’re a strong woman Sophia. I’ve been here before with another guy and waited over a year being his florence nightingale, people pleaser trying to convince, coax, minimize and rationalize what the situation was all at the same time.
I’m disappointed in myself because just when it took me over a year to recover and build up my self-worth again i’m back again on the same side of my bed crying myself to sleep because I trusted and I was let down. But I understand we’re not perfect and i’m thankful for you and all the readers I read from on here and most importantly Nat because I don’t honestly where I would be without this constant reminder & realization today.
One step at a time right? I know I can’t do the 30 day no contact because i’m too weak for that but I have taken steps with deleting his number and only responding if and when he contact me and not ever the other way around. I can’t do cold turkey because I know i’ll slip up. I’ll just occupy my mind and time and take it one step at a time until I no longer feel the need to respond.
Thank you thank you thank you…this support has been beyond words 🙂
Dear Tired,
Trust me, I know, truth hurts!!! These lovely ladies here who were so direct and blatant with me helped me so much in 2014, 2015, and I keep reading here. Nat’s articles at first were so hurtful because they revealed truth about me, from which I had been running away all of my adult life.
Please don’t feel disappointed in yourself, oh no! You are recognizing your weaknesses and it is a very important step. You are not defensive and you do see that you need to work on yourself.
I am still working on myself. I had couple date attempts in the last 2 years, and they all were red flags from the start, but I noticed my habitual fast forwarding and anxiety settling in way too soon. The great news is that I correct myself immediately, check my temperature, talk to myself, clarify, and see the reality. I really love the new me approach in dating and other relationships. But it takes work and I am still working on myself. A lot to correct from years of confusion and immaturity. My friend told me that I used to be like on fire during my relationships. Very intense, gave all myself in quickly, and burned very fast, with only ashes left. I was like a child diving into a pool with all my previous relationships. I know what you mean about wanting sex immediately. I was EXACTLY the same way. I know what it was now: instant gratification and validation that I am worthy. Plus, I thought I would keep him next to me with my sexual tricks and power. Because otherwise I thought he would leave sooner. See, I knew he would leave anyway. It was always like that. I knew they would all leave. That was my mentality. And I picked men like that and everything went according to the scenario.
It’s great you recognize all of this, Tired. We have all been there and many of us are still learning and correcting our ways. We keep on learning. The beauty of it all that we finally stepped into a different phase of our lives where we recognize what happened, that we are a part of the problem, and we are working on the solutions WITHIN us. Not outside.
I recommend reading this site as much as you can. It has been a life changing resource for me.
Dump the user, wipe off you tears, look at how beautiful, lovable, and sweet you are. Love yourself, don’t rush with dating. It will happen and when it does take it slowly. The key to all this is being comfortable by yourself. Not being desperate that that’s it: the greatest sex ever I had is gone, my last chance is gone, I am a single mom, no one will look at me because I am a burden (I had all those thoughts before!!!), etc etc. You are a wonderful, whole, complete person. I know you had a year break but try to focus on you some more. Don’t take a break just to wait until the next dating. I think it’s very important to become so so comfortable with yourself, to where even though you are welcoming a potential partner, you are not worrying if the relationship doesn’t work out. Because you have You, you know? I hope you will come to this point. I have and am refining this attitude while having the space open for a good person. Boundaries, not walls:)
Sofia = BR Rock Star
Aww, Say Something:) I still have way to go, believe me. I discovered that in those couple dating attempts. Long story short, what’s important is self-awareness and self-care.
Tired, about no contact: you are still hoping he will change.
You need to make up your mind to end it. Otherwise you will continue waiting passively. It is sacrificing yourself. I did this ALL MY LIFE. Sacrificing me for everyone. For every relationship. I accept this idea as suitable only for motherhood. I will do anything for my daughter.
So, of course you will respond to him because you are hopeful and waiting. By the way, I used to discuss feelings and relationships over texts too. EU glaring neon sign. I feel so embarrassed I used to do that. Instead of picking up the phone and calling or better yet, arranging a meeting and discussing face to face my concerns.
Now, I have a huge NO for texting about anything serious. I can’t believe how many times I was “working” on my relationship by texting.
Another similarity that I see between us is that I pressed about a relationship very early on, after 1-3 months without even being sure whether I like him!!!! Sex was outstanding. That’s it. I wanted him without knowing even why. I was tired of being lonely. I wanted to have someone.
So I recommend arranging to meet him: talk to him about what YOU want and what he wants. He will say something lame I am sure to keep you stringing along. Obviously he enjoys the benefits. Tell him that you are not continuing this type of relationship. The hardest part is for you to make up your mind to do it. I am afraid this situation might turn into you waiting for him to contact and keep building sand castles.
No point of going silent and disappearing either: it’s just game playing, I think. Just tell him (not over text or e-mail, phone maybe, but in person is best), that he is not what YOU want. And that’s it. Because you don’t want him. You think you do, but you don’t. You want a man who will respect and love you. And he will come. Love you and take care of you starting today!!!
Sophia,
This reminds me of my previous relationship. Almost to a T. Now almost a year after the break up, I’m unable to shake all the pain and hurt that the caused me. Mostly, I blame myself for allowing him to treat me in a way that just wasn’t normal. Not saying he wasn’t normal, but he told me that he suffered from anxiety and depression. It was an ongoing battle with him. I put him before myself. I stayed for 3 years thinking I could change him. At first, he treated me good, well I felt like he did. Made me his priority, took me out on lots of nice dinners etc, met his friends and family.
The most confusing part of it was that he cuddled with me A LOT—while we watched TV, or while we slept, even in the morning before we got up and go ready for work. There were no passionate kisses, no talking about a future, no saying I love you.
I ignored the red flags. He then started blowing hot and cold and it was always a push and pull with him.
After the break up and found out he had been pursuing, dating and having sex with other women behind my back.
So to all the women here that see the red flags and want to ignore them, I beg you to please open your eyes and RUN….as fast as you can before you get hurt and to recover from something like this takes a long time and a toll on you emotionally.
lala2016,
I am sorry you are going through this. One year was not enough for me. This person also pressured me to terminate pregnancy while promising that we will try later in the future, so it’s taking me a long time to recover from all this.
I am feeling much better after 2 years, and although I am not completely out of it, it has been the best progress I have ever had. It takes time and you will get there on your timing.
Definitely and I wish I found BR during my early dating experience. Not sure if I would listen. That’s the thing: I didn’t even seek resources like BR because I didn’t think I was doing something wrong and didn’t realize there were red flags, although my gut was screaming daily to get out.
Having the clarity now, I believe he cheated too. Although I never had a proof. We stayed almost no contact in 2014 after the breakup in January 2014 except for him reaching out 3 times to me. After I asked why he is reaching out and if there is anything he wants to say, he disappeared for good. I have no shared friends, or work, or social media with him. In fact, I don’t know if he is alive. But my gut is telling me that I was being cheated on. I understand it now.
It’s all very painful, I know. A day at a time, a week at a time, a month at a time. We are healing. We will be ok. Take your time.
Thank you Sofia for your kind reply. I’m so sorry to hear that he pressured you to terminate the pregnancy. I can’t imagine what that might of been like for you.
Like you said, one day at a time. I still think about him everyday. The last I heard from him was Christmas last year. He sent me personal text message saying “Merry Christmas Lala” I was so angry over that because he knew exactly how I felt and what he did. I never replied to that text, but knowing him, he probably thought I never received it.
I was so upset after the break up, crying myself to sleep every night. I spent 3 or so years of my life with this man. In the end I realized that I couldn’t be myself around him for the fear that he may leave me. I felt like I needed to be perfect for him. He was very judgmental and so selfish.
I think the reason this has been so difficult is because I am now 46 and I feel like I’m running out of time. Men my age want to date women 10 years younger than me. I found out my ex was cheating on me with a co-worker that was almost 15 years younger than me. I had proof of his cheating, but I could see it in his behavior and felt in my gut.
Sofia, if you felt it in your gut, then there is your proof!
I can relate when you told me he reached out because men like this, reach out to us after a while to see if we give them a response and if we do, it’s only about their ego.
I could go on and on about how my ex treated me….I tried to convince myself that he was good to me, taking me out to nice dinners, holding me every night, making me priority, introducing me to his friends and family, texting me to tell me that he missed or that he was on his way home. (I lived with him for a year). All those things didn’t matter, if there was not passion or kissing or looking at each others eyes and talking about us or emotional availability on his part. He could never open up to me.
I sought therapy but I don’t feel like it’s working for me. I’m just taking it day by day. I’m so glad you are on the road to recovery and that each day it’s getting better for you! We will be ok.
All the best!
lala
Ladies you are so amazing. I couldn’t tell you how helpful this has been. I have no one in my life I could ever get this from sadly and because of you all I will be able to sleep tonight at peace. One step at a time <3
I posted under the other post, but it got buried. I am in dire need of sanity. Long story short, have been divorced for 2 years after a horrendous, vicious 6 year legal battle with a narcissist, cruel, selfish, mean ex. Who cheated me of my money. I walked away with nothing to save my sanity and our child.
I had been in no contact after our divorce, but had to contact him as our child developed some medical issues and he is helping the child with managing the medical concern and with college admissions. In the process I have to meet him a lot. He has taken this as a pretext to talk a lot with me, my actions so far have been consistent, I have made no qualms that I am over him. But then these people read what they want to and ignore the rest. I am scared what if he becomes personal, implies to meet without our child, which I have avoided so far. He flies into rages very quickly, and don’t want to upset him, as he has very very helpful in managing our child medical issues. Plus he is also helping in the admission process. Any posts to manage relations with an ex. Even when you rather not talk to me or see their face or breathe the same air!
@wiser; I feel there is something you are not telling us. You seem afraid of this man. He has rages. If he gets personal you are not sure what you will do. If I was so afraid of someone, I wouldn’t let them back in my life to this extent. Why do you have to meet him a lot?
You need someone else in your corner – where is your family or close friends? I would also recommend websites like chumplady which are focused on the post-divorce period and how to deal with people with rage issues.
You sound almost helpless + in despair + giving up already. I don’t know how I could help with only words on the internet when you sound as if you have given up.
You’re almost saying ‘heres my life, its screwed, I have no power, there is a horrible person in my life, HE has rages, HE does xyz and I have to fall into line, and I am watching my life slow-motion toward a train wreck — help me’.
Ok my suggestion – find a therapist to talk to. Find a good trusted friend to talk to. And go NC again – clearly you did it once, you can do it again. AND stop seeing yourself as powerless – as long as you do, you will be powerless.
Suki,
I have very few friends, where I live being divorced is a big no no. So very difficult for people to understand my situation and why I choose to walk away. I am grateful that few friends I have are not judgemental, and good listener. My family are very supportive and have been with me throughout.
Yes, our child would depend on his father for financing the college education. Also his father is good at counselling our child, since the child is worried of exams. So in short the child needs the father’ s care in addition to mine. The only thing I need to manage is maintain minimum f2f with ex., when he comes to meet our child or pick him up. I need to also have a min. of phone conversations when he calls to inquire about the child. So far I have successful in not reacting to some of the snide comments he makes. Yes, he is a very complicated guy, with passive aggressive but compassionate to the child.
@Wiser2,
My exH has some anger/control issues and here is how I deal…. I don’t respond to any comments, remarks, outbursts that feel mean-spirited, threatening, or controlling. My kids did not need his help to get into college. You are not clear on how he is being helpful. Financially? He does not have power over the college admissions process. Work with high school/college advisors and admissions officers, financial aid reps if you think you need additional guidance. Your son/daughter needs to be active here. Are you feeling overwhelmed because there are changes (medical needs and college on the horizon?) What power REALLY does the ex have? Sounds like you feel more tortured than helped and that you believe he is the one to best take the lead. You are capable. And at age 18 (in the US) the ‘child’ ultimately makes his/her own medical decisions. Suki made some great points. You are not powerless.
Say something,
Thanks for your note. I think the only power I think ex. Has is the possibility to financially control our child’s education. But it is not like our child won’t be educated if he does not , but as a mom I want the best for our child. Of course not at my mental and emotional cost, since now the situation with our son has stabilised, I gradually going back to less phone calls, not picking all his calls, and communicating mostly via email about our child.
I also talked about the situation with one of close friends, who has given me some perspective on how to keep boundaries in place.
Just posting my story to get it off my chest, not because it necessarily applies to Nat’s recent blogpost.
I’m having difficulty getting over this guy i met through a dating app. I know that’s far from ideal and apps like that are like Emotional Unavailability Central Headquarters. I guess i learned that the hard way these last few months.
We started messaging back and forth for a few weeks every day in september-october last year. Just smalltalk. I already started getting attached because i felt quite lonely. I assumed he did too. We had a couple of dates, but didn’t really talk a lot in real life. I thought he wasn’t very comfortable talking a lot and that made me a bit uncomfortable. I hoped things could progress slowly, that he would begin to trust me and start to talk and we would get to know each other over time. I know now how naive that was.
The fourth or fifth time (i don’t really remember) i saw him, we slept together. It wasn’t all that great, but i thought “it’s ok, it’ll get better over time when the intimacy grows”. A couple of days later it happened again. Soon after, he broke things off (with a text of course), decided he didn’t feel what he was supposed to feel. He also said he had a constant vague feeling of doubt about everything in his life and that he wasn’t over his ex. He also recently moved back home after living abroad for three years because of his work. By that time i had already noticed he was a bit of a workaholic and he didn’t have a lot of friends (except for an ex or two and some people from work). Lots of red flags, i know that now in hindsight.
I wanted to talk about it in real life and he was ok with that. He told me his father used to be an alcoholic to the point where the father ended up in hospital almost dying. During that time his 1,5 year relationship came to a halt because his girlfriend broke up with him. He told me he’s not over her. Can you believe that? She dumped him during what must have been one of the worst times in his life! Anyway, i recognized some things, coming from a similar problematic home. I suddenly also saw where his vulnerability came from. He was so sad and ashamed. By the end he asked me if i still wanted to meet up in the future to talk. It broke my heart. I saw my own deep rooted sadness regarding my upbringing reflected in him.
So afterwards we tried to stay friends, but that didn’t feel right to me. He just wanted to keep messaging occasionally and that’s not what i see as friendship. I want more than that, but he can’t do it. He’s an adult child of an alcoholic (as am i) and i think he doesn’t realize what that means. Being an ACOA has huge consequences for the way you connect to people and how you live your life as an adult. I am starting to become aware of that more and more. But it just hurts, even though i saw him only seven or eight times in real life. I know he’s EU, I must be too. He wasn’t an AC though. I believe he has a good heart but is terribly afraid of getting close to people and letting them in.
I sent him a beautiful heartfelt handwritten letter on december 7th. He never really responded to it. A couple of weeks later, on the first of january i got a message: “My best wishes for the new year, i hope everything is ok”. I didn’t respond because i was NC since december 13th, but there hasn’t been a day i haven’t thought of him. I know i should tend to my own problems and wellbeing and i’m trying… Just wanted to share this.
Headache and heartache,
I am a child of alcoholics as well. I understand everything you are saying.
Instead of figuring him out, I recommend that you start working on you. Read and/or attend a group in your area. He has to figure out his own stuff. You need to start digging deep inside you who you are and why you are the way you are. I have been doing the self-discovery in the last 2 years and healing wounds that had gone unnoticeable and I didn’t even know they existed.
The most important thing for you moving forward is to focus on you and your healing. You are investing and overinvesting in person who is dealing with his own stuff. You are not his priority.
Start being you as your priority. To improve the quality of our lives, we need to figure out what happened in our childhood and not what’s happening in our dating world and relationships. We need to start from the scratch, stay single for some time, and tend the wounds. Otherwise we are bound to repeat the same mistakes over and over.
Children of alcoholics are the ultimate guilt feeling people, blaming themselves for everything, people pleasers, highly triggered by even a hint of abandonment. We are empathetic people and tuned into others very well. Because we had to when we coped as children. We had to make it ok.
Now it is time to make it ok for us. To stop sacrificing us for others. It’s time to rebuild us.
Forget the guy. Take care of you.
apologies, got the name wrong! Headache and heartbreak says.
Change your name to something positive. It will lighten up your spirit:)
Hi Sofia,
thank you for your reply. You’re right, i have to keep working on myself. Not easy when my whole life has revolved around my parents and their problems, so i’m used to focussing on other people instead of myself. That way of being has very very deep roots.
The last few days i started to get out more and meet up with friends again. One way or another, they are all saying the same thing as you: start focussing on myself. Also, i should always remember that this was not about me. It’s important, because as you said we are the ultimate guilt feeling people, and i have been trying to make sense of it all by blaming myself. I shouldn’t do that. I also shouldn’t try to overanalyze everything, but just feel my feelings, observe them and validate them, without overthinking and certainly without categorizing them as right or wrong. They just are.
Having said that, i still regret we couldn’t make it. I think we could have been very good friend, but true friendship can never be second best after you have tried and failed the “relationship option”. That’s devaluing the very essence of friendship, i think.
So thank you very much for your reply. 🙂 I always believe: if i hear the message enough, some day it will “stick” and with practice become my nature.
Big hug!
ps: changed my name 😉
Getting there,
You post moved me so I thought I would respond off the cuff:You have been used to tending to the needs of others as a child and this is how you operate and feel most comfortable. This guy has issues that he clearly has not dealt with for whatever reason stemming from his upbringing- so do you. You were both helpless children once but you both have a choice, especially you- put you first, make decisions that benefit you, get someone to look after you for a change, love you. You will meet a lot of creeps- we all know you have to kiss a lot of frogs to meet a prince but we don’t have to stay with the frog if they do not turn into princes.This man is no prince- is not on the road to recovery. Get rid and don’t look back I’m afraid x
I wonder if there are any success stories out there, thriver stories, those who have come out the other side and living happier, content lives and more importantly are over their EU MM / AC etc?
I’m almost a year on from my break up with the MM (who lied to me for nearly 4 years about his marital status) but I feel sometimes I take 2 steps forwards and then 2 steps back again. I thought I was doing ok over the last couple of months, until I decided I was bored at work this afternoon so would do a sneaky online search of him etc. because I’m so much better now!! WRONG! needless to say I found out something I’d rather I hadn’t and now I’m beating myself up for putting myself through this. Why am I not strong enough to resist? I don’t want him back, I just can’t bear the thought he let me go and then just went back to his old life as if nothing had happened. I shouldn’t care because if his wife did take him back she’s welcome to him and their issues but he future faked us on a monumental scale and I’m still struggling to get over this. I’m considering hypnotherapy, that’s how much I want to move on from this……..I’ve tried everything else!
I felt the same way. I wanted to remove his ‘chip’ from my brain. My friend told me about EMDR therapy. It’s really amazing and has been around for decades. Read about it. Good luck.
Nicki, what do you think are your learnings from your relationship moving forward? Now that you googled him, what are your learnings? That is, where do you take responsibility.
I have not googled the ex-Narc since the breakup, and definitely not since I heard he was re-married. I know that he is narcissistic and will have tons of pictures everywhere. I know this is bad for my mental health and I am ultimately responsible for my mental health. I unfriended, unfollowed on everything. The question is for you to ask yourself how you see this relationship and where the responsibility is. One one level you say that he lied to you about married – I’m not sure at what time in the relationship did you realize he was MM. The times you stayed with him after that are on you, thats your responsibility to take. IF he lied to you about being married, then till the time you found out, you were massively betrayed by him. That you are still pining for him in some ways, that bit is your responsibility. This might sound harsh but you must extract your responsibility from this situation. You looking him up – thats your responsibility. You choosing to be upset by what you found – thats in your hands.
Are there thrivers? Yes. I’m a thriver. How do I thrive? I continue to be in therapy, I read self-help books, I read Nat and respond here, I talk to my friends and ask for advice and then I goddamn take that advice. I give advice. I step up for my friends. I set boundaries. I take hard decisions. I try to be calm and look for silver lining in things. I aim to do my best at my job and at whatever else is under my control. I try to come to terms with being single because I no longer want to settle for less than a mature, stable, generous adult. There are thrivers all around you. There are no magic wands though, the thrivers are pretty boring and normal, they might not look like success stories on the surface of it. On the surface, they might just look successful.
I know that a friend of mine has resented me more on finding out that I used to be a complete wreck – she already resented me when I got a promotion etc – I think she preferred to think that I was just somehow magically endowed with calmness and professionalism. It was harder for her to realize that I have had to work to pull myself out of the mud. She is in the mud of her own making, and I think she believes its everyones fault but hers.
Right on target!
Suki,
I love your post. Like you I am a thriver. I had to pull myself out of the mud. It took time, but I did it. It feels WONDERFUL.
I love how you took control of what you could control. It makes all the difference in the world.
MJ
Suki, thank you for your response (I think). I asked the question about thrivers because as I said I’m nearly a year on from my breakup and still struggle with the PTSD I suffered at the hands of this narcissist. I’m glad for you that you were strong enough to break all contact after your break up, but some of us haven’t been as strong as you. I don’t think it’s fair for you to question ‘IF’ he lied to me about his divorce when that is clearly what I said. This psycopath produced fake divorce documents, duped me, my family and friends and left me with debt when we broke up, all the while we were living together and planning our future. Oh yes there were red flags and my self-analysis leads me to my responsibility in all this. So I’m not ‘pining for him’ as you say, just morbidly curious, destructive I know, but just occasionally my morbid curiosity gets the better of me. I have tried so hard to move on from this betrayal, sometimes I wonder if I’ll ever recover, ever be able to trust anyone again. I’m only human, I’m going to fall down sometimes, but I’ll keep on trying because I don’t want to be defined by this relationship. I don’t want to be reprimanded for that, I come here for support, to be told it’s okay, we all do it sometimes, not to be made to feel worse than I already do.
I apologize for coming on strong; I think the question about ‘where are the good stories, the thrivers’ gets me sometimes because it ignores that the good stories are just people pulling themselves out of the mud. There is no magic wand. I have been where you are. I have been in therapy for a long time, I had a lot of personal problems that I don’t want to go into, I had much in common with your current situation. And I’m thriving – and its still work every single day. So I’m not done thriving, its a verb not a destination. It never stops and its really really hard work.
Is it a reprimand? Yes to some extent it is – you have some things in your hands. You cannot conjure up a relationship, you cannot make others love you, so if thriving for you means finding intimacy you’re setting yourself up for failure. But you CAN stop torturing yourself – thats what I meant, there is responsibility here that you can take. The only way to thrive is to start taking steps. Perhaps you posting on BR is one such step. I wanted to ask you to find the parts of that relationship that were your responsibility. Or the parts of what you are doing now that is your responsibility.
When I said ‘if he lied to you’, I wasn’t doubting your word, I believe you. I think its the way I phrase things, I’ve ended up miscommunicating this way before. What I mean is usually more along the ‘if…then’ way of thinking through something. I mean ‘If someone lies to you about being married, then such and such follows…’. I also wanted to contrast it with what happened after – once you know, the responsibility shifts. You’re not in the dark anymore. Now you know. Now it becomes your responsibility what you do – so if you stayed after that time, then you have to ask yourself why, what made you, and how can you change that in the future. Its taking responsibility without blaming yourself. Perhaps you are not ready to think about your role. Perhaps no one is, perhaps I wasn’t either, and I’m just coming on strong here for reasons I cant identify.
But taking responsibility never hurt anyone. And if there are patterns here that you find in other parts of your life, and you want to start enjoying life again, then you’ll have to figure out what part you played or what really happened. OR just shove it out of your mind and get on with your life. If he’s such a sociopath as to lie for 4 years, [note how I wrote that! I don’t doubt it I just write this way I don’t know why]… anyway if he’s such a sociopath then you have no responsibility or blame anyway. You stayed even after you knew – [not sure you did] – so what? Let it go. move on.
I used to tell myself ‘sometimes we fall for a–holes’. Thats it. Sometimes we do. And thats fine. Thats totally okay.
Thanks Ellie, I’ll certainly look in to that, appreciate your support x
Nikki, I was with an engaged man/ then separated for over 10 years on off/ flip flapping both ways. He was a soul man the male version of me except the morals- love this man I would have done anything but I knew he was not the life partner for me. He wanted kids and a wife and lots of girlfriends so he went off and married. We seperated a year before he wed and then 2 years later he contacted me. It had to stop. It was like putting a knife in my own stomach but first I deleted his phone number and no one died- shock horror. Then their was facebook. I blocked him at 12.30 before going to sleep and when I woke up the world hadn’t ended- but I cried through out this period similar to experiencing a death. Drinks were necessary so were good movies and friends. Now 18-24 months on whose counting I am free to find MR Available and Mr Wonderful.
Free yourself Nikki- go full non contact including social media. Let go of him as you say he’s forgot about you and moved on- same as this man who would have tied me up for another 10 years as his side chick/ mistress if I’d allow him- but I finally came to my senses. Don’t waste 10 years- don’t waste any more because if you allow this to drag on it can do forever. Why give a sh*t what he does now- start moving forward and don’t look back! Pick a date like dieting and go for it 0 you can do it, you are stronger than you think! Don’t waste any more of you/your energy on him x
All my adult relationships in short have been with shady people and AC’s.
What’s worse is that they have been very long term 7 years, 10 years and 5 years. All were EU, my father was never faithful and so my mum put up with a lot of crap! She was also of course unhappy at times and she was verbly/emotionally abusive to one older sibling that we witness this subtly at times. Due to my dating history I have not been out with anyone for 7 years !!I am now looking for a soul mate and a good man. I went on a date last year with someone 15 years younger than me we met in the library and went for a coffee a few days later. I flushed him the next day as he was pretending to be a muslim to please his father- and one of my criteria is I need a man. I went on a second date with a man and don’t know what to make of it- so hence my post on here. We met at a club and went for a drink= fact finding mission. I asked him school was like and said he can’t tell me as it was a bad experience and a single sex school which stunted his growth in girls for a while but he is now late 40’s. He also said he got on great with his mum but that she was too strict and that he had an argument with his sister that resulted in a night in the cells and again with an exgirl friend. I had drunk lots of too much rum by then on my rare night out and the music and back ground noise was too loud to fully hear the explanation he gave, he did give on. I said to him you seem to have issues- ie with school still, with family or was he just sharing?? What do you make of all this and do I have another date where I am sober to extract the gory details or is it flush. How do I bring this all up again, I hadsaid I had been in trouble with the law and that’s when he shared about his run ins, Your thoughts appreciated.
How can someone’s mum be too strict – he’s in his late 40s. FWIW, I cant always deal with my mum. I wouldn’t ever tell anyone that on the first date. Or the second. Or for along time.
And going to jail for a domestic dispute? Flush. Too much drama with the women in his life. And it seems like he believes he’s just had it rough all his life, which means he probably doesn’t like to take responsibility.
Plus – I don’t know your troubles with the law, and what you went through, and whether you have learnt and moved on or not. If yes, you have resolved your issues, then you don’t need the drama. He might pull you back in. If no, then you don’t need to be with another person with unresolved issues. So either way, flush.
I did not ask or could not keep asking when I did enough questions. I have had no trouble with the law I just said it randomly that I have seen the world and even had a few brushes with the law. I was thinking it is nice to share and disclose I am here as I question the info he did give. Thanks Suki for your time and thoughts x
I took your advise which was of course my gut feeling hence posting on here seeking the wisdom of BR and the team. Anyway- I pressed flush and he popped back up strongly. He with lots of questions and tell me you are not like the rest. I then went for a hard no and he said he will not give up that easy- it was 4am to when he sent a text to say I am lovely and the last one calling me two faced . It was scary as it was one date- a few drinks, he held my hand as I got very drunk and that was it, we met the previous week at a club. He is nuts and boy did I pick em than goodness I aborted saw code red failed to ask questions- well here the answers but I am now scared to leave my home as this was crazy / childish shit especially after one date but I will do so and I did sense he was immature. I also phone blocked him so feel I took back my power-I think he works near my home if I see him we’ll cross that bridge and fortunately I am moving in 5 weeks lol – Thanks Suki for your swift reply you have helped me more than you will ever know- I was going into the lions den, well considering it until your intervention. TC x
Im currently seeing this guy by 2 months…he is 49years old a divorcee by 15 years hasn’t dated in 4 and has 2 grown sons. He is asking from me total perfection, I find that when I talk to him I’m starting to guard what I say to him because he constantly over thinks and analyzes what I say, making something that is purely normal something that becomes a monumental issue. He has told me that he is a mom’s boy and for some reason feels that it is a badge of honor by saying that he is, he just recently told me that his mother lives with him because she separated from his father who is an alcoholic. He has a gently and soft way about him, he appears to be grounded…I do find him attractive both outwardly and inwardly to a degree…but I feel either he is emotionally unavailable and trying to sabotage the relationship by picking apart things that I say or by what he randomly throws out. Just yesterday he told me that he thinks he’s too good for me…when I asked him what he meant by that he told me to forget that he said that, when I told him Im a good person and the I wanted an apology he gave me one but I don’t want to feel that I have to keep asking for apologies or that I have to guard my innocent remarks…
Christine,
He sounds incredibly controlling – like the kind of man who will gradually eat away at your self esteem with cruelty and backhanded insults – until there’s nothing left. It’s already affecting you as you’re monitoring what you say to him for fear of his reaction. Nobody should have to walk on egg shells for the sake of someone else’s feelings. That’s not how it works.
After his “I’m too good for you” comment, you should’ve walked away and shut the door in his face. It’s obvious that’s how he feels deep down inside and the fact that he had the cheek to say it to your face – well… Is that the kind of man you really want to be with??? Someone who clearly thinks he’s above you?
Whether he’s EU or self-sabotaging you can’t ignore your gut feelings on this matter. It’s only been 2 months, so it’s not too late to pull the plug on this and leave with your self esteem and dignity in tact.
Good luck!
x
Christine, run away from this “relationship” now.
Ok…he’s physically attractive. We ladies are suckers for good looks, we make all kinds of allowances when they look good. You do not have to turn this into a full blown “relationship”. He can be a no-sex date – movies, food outings, stuff like that. Do not continue to have sex with a man who tosses verbal insults at you. That is NOT ok. You cannot break him out of that habit. What good is a forced apology?? He will only toss off another verbal slight at some other occasion.
I suspect that if you look under the financial covers, he is not rescuing his Mom, she is rescuing him….meaning her money is helping him out more than his money is helping her. ACs love to portray themselves as “noble”.
When he said he was too good for you, you should have agreed and said goodbye. Would’ve thrown him for a real loop. He was baiting you…trying to get you to fight for him. Not because he wants to know if you care, but because he has a huge ego that needs to be stroked constantly. Too much trouble if you ask me.
Why are you walking on eggshells for this man? He is not your “last chance”…don’t treat him like he is.
Thank you Rachel:
I do think he has issues, that’s for sure…im hoping that with me communicating with him about the way he talks to me he will “see the errors of his ways”. It just burns me that he would be so flipped…I mean really…that’s an awful thing to say to someone, especially a female that your trying to court. I just don’t know if that is really what this is all about…I don’t know if it is that he wants to court me or if he just wants to hurt someone because he feels hurt deep down inside. He’s told me that in the past women either liked him or didn’t…im tending to lean on the side of didn’t…
Rachel, I feel you need to make a swift exit. Dating in the first few months is about having fun and a discovery/fact finding exercise we know thanks to Nat! You have discovered in 2 months you can not relax, he does to value you, you are beneath him. So at 6-12 months plus he will really treat you like dirt and all this from a man in his 40’s who says he is capable of looking after his mother but not a 2 month old girl friends feels! Go -there are plenty more frogs to meet before your prince arrives I think x
girl friends feelings not feels!
Thank you ladies…I appreciate all the replies…im going to test out the waters a little while longer…if in the next 30 days things don’t get better, I mean as far as him being more attentive to me and caring for my feelings than im going to cut the cord. I ended a 10 year relationship 7 months ago because I realized that I was turning into someone that I didn’t like anymore, my attitude was changing into one that was being cold and hard and found myself being on the receiving end of grabbing, pushing and in your face yelling and screaming including hours of verbal tyraides. I definitely don’t want to return to a relationship like that, hoping and hoping that a man is going to change, when I know they don’t. If anything I should have learned that I need to take a man at face value…and determine at that point if I want that that in my life.
I completely agree with this and just wrote about sometning similar. Time as an individual is so important. Great advice.
To sacrifice or not, it’s been a difficult question for me to answer.
In a couple weeks I’ll be graduating with my Bachelor’s Degree and by the end of the summer I’ll be confronted to answer this question.
The relationship I have with my boyfriend is passionate and beautiful. I’ve never been so intimate physically and emotionally with anyone.
But he is from Europe and I’m from Canada. We’ve been in a long distance relationship for several months now and he’s hoping I’ll move my life to be with him in his home country after graduation. I’m willing to give it a try for a couple months, but truthfully I don’t want to do it. I don’t want to learn a new language, say goodbye to my friends and family and struggle to build a career for myself – all for him. I don’t doubt he will try to make it up to me, but I don’t except him to either.
SOS. Any insights?
I believe you have already answered your own question Daniela.
Did he move to your Country to study ?
I understand your situation as I found myself in a similar situation after our degrees completed. We met at University in UK, I am English he was from the Far East. We spent 5 years together, where I even followed him to his second University for a Masters in my Country. After his graduation he could not stay here to live or work so he went back home for good. He asked me many times for me to join him 7000 miles away.
It did cause a huge headache and much heart ache thinking it through as you are now. I also gave up a lot just to be with him for his Masters. So much so I lost myself.
Needless to say it would not have worked if I had followed him to his homeland for so many reasons (language, religion, cultural differences, family etc). Yet he seemed to get along just fine here.
So with heavy heart we parted ways after 6 months of LDR. Looking back it was for the best but I should have ended it sooner.
You are right to think carefully about family, friends, language, cultural issues, and the distance from your homeland. He is asking you to give up everything. It is your sacrifice as you say, not his.
It is hard but you know in your heart what will work for you. Listen to your inner voices and concerns, don’t ignore them.
IV only just found this site through desperation! Apologies in advance there are so many pages this may be better suited to but here goes…. In regards to sacrifice! I’m 26 years old and have bee with my 24yo boyfriend for 4 years. I moved in with his parents….. 3 YEARS AGO!!! I absolute love him to death but despite making constant efforts to convince him to move out (IV compromised again and said we can live in the same town) he hasn’t done anything to look for a better paid job and makes continual excuses. Now im greatful to his parents for letting me stay so long however the way they live (incredibly dis functional, messy house, his mother is emotionally and mentally extreamly troubled, house wife that actually does no house hold ‘duties’ despite the allowance from her husband to do so) has after 3 years taken its toll on my mental health. At this point I have been diagnosed with chronic generalised anxiety and depression. I have sacrificed my mental health to be with the person I love (he’s a wonderful loving partner) but we don’t have a normal relationship in his house. Due to his dad’s traditional views we aren’t able to share a bed (so for 3 years of a 4 year relationship) we havnt been allowed to share a bed. His mother is incredibly manipulative and plays on his good nature etc. I’m going back there tomorrow after a trip home to put a plan together to leave the house and move back to my parents for a little while before I sort a new place to live. I desperately don’t want to leave him but I can’t live in their house anymore it’s killing me!
“We can only go to the limits of ourselves. Anything more and we give too much away. Then we’re not good for anyone” Paula McLain
Recognize that you have this vulnerability (and learn why), figure out those folks that exploit this vulnerability in you (users/takers), dump them/limit time with them and be your own best friend. Once I learned that I was betraying/sabotaging myself every time I over gave (and enabling the other person), it helped me to stop. It hurts everyone involved, it’s a lose-lose situation. Now I practice having my own back (being my best friend) and if they leave because of it, they were going to leave eventually. Better find this out sooner. If your parent(s), family are like this, it is very challenging because they will try to wear you down, often very cruelly to go back to sacrificing, but it’s worth it to hold firm in your limits! Now I ask myself, what would my best friend say to me about this situation/what would I say to my best friend, then I do it!
I have been terrified of risk, taking risks on behalf of myself. Now I have learned that I will risk everything to save myself as opposed to sacrificing myself to save myself.
It feels amazing! Liberating!
he was a his ex girlfriend for 6 years and they were the awful 6 years of his life. everybody hated her, he left everyone including his friends and family just to please her and be with her…. since the beginning he knew it was a wrong relationship… however he was attached sexually to her ONLY….
after 3 months of the break up, we met and we have the best 10 months of our entire life…. everybody loves me and i am sure he does too… cause everyone is showing me how happy and comfortable he is with me … he verbalized it many times… how happy and in love with me and we are going to get married soon… BUT.. he still cannot be with me sexually….. HELP
Am I sacrificing a lot of myself if I stayed with him to get over her ????…cause i am sure his heart and mind are with me