Do you remember many moons ago when the internet was shiny and new and you used to get excited about receiving an email? I remember when dating websites started and how love was blossoming all over the place. I also remember two things that most of us gradually became aware of : there are people out there who send spam designed to either wreck your computer or gain your hard earned money, and there are people online who are not what they seem.
Back in the day when my friends and I used to spend our weekends in nightclubs pretending to be on a girls night out but secretly hungering for ‘Mr Right’ to show up on the dancefloor, we used to wisecrack to slippery guys who were laying on the charm and trying to sell us a fantasy, “Are you trying to 419 me?”
Just in case you’re unfamiliar with what 419 means, it’s a type of fraud typically associated with those emails telling you that the person has come into a large amount of cash that for some OTT reason, they cannot have access to or put it in their own bank account. Incidentally, it’s called 419 due to a section of Nigerian law that deals with it (419 is very associated with Nigeria although not limited to it by any stretch). They promise victims a share of the money for handling the funds on [the scammer’s] behalf and then shazam, clean out their accounts. Some of them offer a share of the money for a fee and then on receiving it, just keep tapping up the victims for more. I watched something a couple of years ago or so (I forget which show) which highlighted how some people had been scammed numerous times and were kept on lists by criminal gangs.
Over the years, many of us have become savvy about spam and recognising that a person’s online persona may be very (or entirely) different to their true self.
As a result, we have installed anti virus and we know that our banks won’t ask us to email our password or bank account details; we know to check the email address of the sender because often it’s entirely different to the company that they’re claiming to be from, and we also know to be suspicious of glaring typos from so-called big brands asking for our information. We tend to be suspicious of attachments when we’re unfamiliar with the sender, and people get exposed all the time for making up backgrounds and experiences in order to gain a following, money etc. Basically, we’ve gradually built up a knowledge base of things to look out.
When we found out about spam and viruses, we could have thrown the baby out with the bathwater and stopped using computers and email… but instead we’ve opted to try to be a bit more street smart and self-aware. We approach with caution and take our time. We have our Safe Senders which is the equivalent of our Circle of Trust. Similarly, there’s no need to give up dating and relationships.
Self-esteem is your own operating system, anti-virus and spam filter. It’s not a magic bullet and it doesn’t promise to remove or avoid 100% of shadiness (we all have to learn from unfamiliar ‘data’ via experiences) but self-esteem offers a great deal of self-protection as it significantly reduces the amount of bullsh*t (BS) that you carry around with you. It’s a hell of a lot better than little or none at all.
If you have self-esteem, which means you that you consider you a worthwhile and valuable person who lives by their own values and boundaries, you have a lot more ‘padding’ to help you navigate life. You have something to draw on in those times when you hit life’s inevitable bumps. The more you take care of you including improving your emotional and relationship literacy, the more you fine-tune your operating system because you’re able to trust in you and your intuition. You know that you’ll listen to you.
I’m regularly asked what the difference is between intuition and inner critic. Quite simply: intuition is supportive. Supportive does not mean “tells me what I want to hear” or “only gives me positive information”. Intuition is there to help you in a positive way whereas your inner critic thinks it’s helping you by scaring and belittling you under the pretext of protecting you from a much bigger failure.
Much like creativity, you can’t use up self-esteem. Cultivating a sense of self where you treat and regard you (and others) with love, care, trust, and respect, can only be a good thing. It’s the gift that keeps giving.
If you go around without much self-esteem, odds are, you’ll let in any ‘ole Tom, Dick and Harry (or Jo, Bessy and Fanny – can you tell I’ve been looking at Enid Blyton books recently?). You will latch onto any ‘ole opportunity because it’s better than being with you and you’ll be hoping that somebody will come along and wave their wand over your life. Your head will be turned by shortcuts and Get Rich Quick Schemes because this will seem so much preferable to doing the work. You’d rather trust in a stranger and the dream than trust in yourself. This will cause you to be vulnerable to people who effectively prosper from this.
Just as 419 scammers only focus on those who respond and then engage them to find the juiciest potentials, there are a portion of people on, for instance, ‘dating websites’ (read: introduction websites), who are not there for decent purposes. They have dodgy profile names or dodgy profile pics or slippery profiles with information that doesn’t add up or they behave inappropriately by being too forward and/or inconsistent. They unfold into something that’s incompatible with forging a mutually fulfilling relationship. Same as in real life.
If you entertain them or you certainly keep entertaining them once their shady ways are becoming apparent via boundary busting and things not adding up, they will exploit it until you have the good sense to flush.
I talk to a hell of a lot of people about dating both on and offline. One common theme I’ve noticed in those who haven’t damn near lost their mind or certainly their faith, is that they don’t entertain the ‘spammers’ and ‘scammers’ of this world once it becomes apparent. They don’t blame themselves, they don’t try to turn a pig’s ear into a silk purse, and they accept that part of their remit and obligation is to filter out the undesirables because they accept that this exists rather than labouring on the fact that they think that it ‘shouldn’t’.
It’s a shame that there are people out there who, whether it’s about dating and relationships or exploiting vulnerabilities in products and technology, they seek to take advantage and even abuse for their own gains financial and otherwise, but they’re there. Sure, they ‘shouldn’t’ be there and should “do the right thing” or get off of the sites and places where all the decent folk are, but that’s not going to happen. They walk amongst us.
It’s our business to engage in good self-care by getting relationship and street smart instead of hoping to be made the exception to the rule.
Yes, dating can be a right ‘ole pain in the bottom and yes, most of us don’t want to feel as if we’re playing Columbo or Jessica Fletcher. It’s also fair to say that in much the same way that some people say that they don’t like using condoms because it takes away the sensation, there are some of us who feel as if having to be the likes of awake, aware, street smart, grounded, not gullible, self-disciplined, boundaried, etc., is an “inconvenience”. It’s not when you’re safer and happier.
Your thoughts?
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Agree Agree Agree! This dating lark is a discovery phase (as Nat says in previous posts) I’m now beginning to realise it is not just about discovering stuff about the other party but also stuff about us!
What have I learnt since dating my emotionally abusive ex 3 years ago?
1) That I’m SO much happier without him
2) That there are other men just like him who will sneak in if I let them
3) no matter how hard it is – it really is on me to choose the right people to have in my life.
4) That until I find a good healthy relationship it’s great to be alone and building my self esteem! Testing it out on a few lucky fellas 😉
Thanks Nat
Bx
You guys should be so proud of yourselves for coming so far and realizing that the answer lies within us. I too just last saturday walked away from a man who on the surface was a dream come true (secure, gentle seemingly caring) but then came my gut instincts and vague answers about who he went out to dinner with etc. and the “lets see how it goes” after a year with him. and a whole lot of pursue and pull away. And then the i cant give you what you want but “i care deeply for you” “i hoped you could be a friend”. All that confusing behavior ( which shouldnt be confusing), but gee he is so nice to me right? Then i realized,clowns can be real nice to cover cowardess. Also i finally realized if im tempted to play sherlock holmes than im not happy am i? All that rhuminating almost drove me insane. The only thing that matters is how i feel no matter how he acts or how many unanswered questions. It became simple. I asked myself, do i feel good emotionally? Does this, this thing with him feel healthy? I have a choice and i could not afford to be jerked around by nice guy anymore. (Prior to him i was with a bonafied psychopath leech for ten years). Yes I needed to come here and thank god for this website. I was in a real boohoo state before i read some of my favorite posts tonight. Thank you Nat for helping me alter my thinking. Thankyou guys for being a inspiration and keeping me from laying down with my sadness.
After a year, “I care deeply for you” isn’t good ENOUGH. And YES, they can be *NICE* to cover up who they *REALLY* are. I’m still learning THAT lesson.
Me too, same something. I’ve learned to pay very close attention to not only what they are doing/saying, but how I feel around them.
Oops! Say Something.
Thanks for saying that. there was so much more than that but it would take a week to write about it and its all been said before here. It really was the sweet guy stuff that kept me roped. He would say he wanted to take it one day at a time. As soon as we broke it off the first time by his choice (yeah i know i should have not responded), he was following up with the ” i will always care about you” and wanting to be friends and for me to visit him. Months later its, “lets see where the relationship goes” on top of me feeling his interests were being met elsewhere, but i had no proof, he lives two hours away and i have never been jealous in other relationships. He puts out this impression that he is so sweet and caring but when i would casually ask about the trip he went on over the weekend he would answer in a sketchy way and bam my gut would tighten. Plus one time he said he got back late from out of town yet if found a receipt showing that was a lie. Small lies are a coverup for big ones. It was the little things that added up. But his attention to me and nurturing was so opposite from the ex psychodude (who was so available that i had to leave him with just my clothes). I was torn about leaving, thinking maybe im making a huge mistake, maybe im crazy, maybe i should not act so needy he is always so sweet……but he could never promise me anything but wanted me to stick around. I still am arguing with myself. I have to remind myself to listen to my gut not thst pain of loss. He was the false advertisement. Everything on his terms with a smile (he is a mental health professional also). I had done my work and waiting after psychopath man, made a list of traits, etc. I have never had mental issuesand have always had supportive friends. This man seemed so honest and sweet and all that but there were just the slightest things that felt off. It was that nice character that hides a lying cheat who would probably string me along till the next discard. Also he used compliments to distract issues. Maybe because thats what he would think i needed. All i can say from all this is listen to your gut. Your brain is a lot smarter than your heart, and loneliness. Whats weird is this one hurt more than psychoguy because it seemed so covert.
Freedme,
“Everything on his terms with a smile”
Yes, I get it, and see similarities with what I experienced. You’ve pointed out that he was charming, yet covert. I didn’t see covert until reflecting back on WTF just happened. BGE was charming and sweet and attentive, complimenting me, and promising a future. He was the master of image management. Even as he ripped my heart out, he maintained his calmness. *Let me nicely fire some bullets at you.*
Also, Natalie has a previous post that discusses the difference between personality and character. Their personalities are COVERS for their unstable characters. Now to me, NICE IS A FOUR LETTER WORD.
You said he “SEEMED so honest and sweet”, but he wasn’t really. And it DOES hurt. I’m still hurting and still have cognitive dissonance to work through. A charming, sweet, attentive, likable guy CAN be a covert, passive aggressive, manipulative user. EVEN IF he claims otherwise. He will never admit to being anything BUT a great, wonderful, caring man. Maybe he’s just a liar.
Say Something,
Yes you do understand. Yes impression management is exactly the term. Being that attached was foreign to me, like I had some invisible bond pulling me to him. Perhaps we were dealing with A**clowns vs. Mr. UA. It doesn’t matter what he is, I realized that this was the second unhealthy relationship and even though I now know about A**clowns in addition to psychopaths, it is my behavior and how I react that will determine who I will allow into my life. Feeling so unnaturally horrible and hurt means I needed to learn a serious life lesson. This was a freaky wake up call. So that is the silver lining. We should be grateful for this self realization and need for change. There are those who will live their entire miserable life chained to victimhood. I never want to go through this experience again.
You are so right these guys will act “nice” to the very end. Forget about closure.
Say something, thanks for the BR post suggestion. I’ll check it out.
Oh and yeah, “i care for you and do love you” don’t mean jack from this breed of clown. Just relace those words with “use”. Thanks for letting me vent.
freedme, I hear you. That niceness, being proper, when everything looks good on paper, consistency, treating you right (on the artificial level anyway) those things for us were huge loafs, if we didn’t get anything like that from the previous relationships. One of my friends said that these guys are smooth like that because they know when they leave, they are “good guys.” and yes, “I care about you and don’t want to lose contact with you, ” I heard that too. “Let’s stay friends, I am always here for you if you need anything.” Isn’t that sweet?
However all that is just words and their behavior and their responsibility what they say and do. What important is what we do:
Now, almost 1,5 years after the breakup, there is more and more clarity. Two things (and many more) have been revealed to me finally and I would like to share. Those who have gone through the pain and healing can relate. Those who are going through a similar situation now, need to pay attention although we usually come to BR only after being burnt. And really bad.
One thing is I know now is that my gut screamed loud and clear in the first few weeks of dating the ex, “Stay away.” I didn’t for I didn’t know myself who I was. I was lonely. I didn’t have a life built together. I was empty and scared. Surely I had the external life in order: motherhood, job, studies, routine, things to get done, but I didn’t have the knowledge of me and didn’t have any internal structure that could sustain me. I was broken. So I ignored every red flag that was there and blew out of the proportion all the positive sides of him. I didn’t pay attention how I felt. I felt uncomfortable. I felt unloved, not special, not important. He made me feel like something ultimately was wrong with me. Like I was not enough. And I allowed him.
And that brings me to the second most important conclusion (first one paying attention to your gut): He was the mirror of me during that phase of my life. He and his behavior conformed with everything I thought about me. I felt at home with him because I didn’t like myself and I didn’t value myself although I had never admitted. Because I didn’t know what I felt about myself. It’s really that simple yet that complicated. It takes this kind of blow and a heartache to rip you apart and rebuild from the scratch and see all the situation for it really was. If it helps someone: always listen to your gut – it won’t lie to you and always have your own back. Protect and love yourself as you do your child, a parent, a dear friend.
“loaves” – can’t spell – too late where I am.
All these revelations would not have been possible without the BR community. It has been the best journey in my life yet. The pain of change is worth it. It’s like being reborn. Growing pains. I read somewhere about being reborn spiritually or otherwise. The pain is compared to a birthing pain. Going through a birth canal! Shedding the skin, literally feeling like we are losing some parts of our bodies. But only with great pain and losses can we renew ourselves and move forward to a new and happier us. It will be so much better and is already. Hang in there, Say Something, freedme, Mary Jane and everyone else who is going through pain right now. It WILL get better. In fact, much better than ever before.
Thanks for your insight (and others here) your comments. Reading the posts on BR were the driving force for my decision to leave last week. I’m so thankful to have learned so much. I know I have so much more to learn and will continue to grow. You are so right about change being worth it. Yes it takes discipline and it is hard but the alternative is unacceptable. This is about me keeping my dignity and self respect in tact.
Sofia, “I didn’t pay attention how I felt. I felt uncomfortable. I felt unloved, not special, not important. He made me feel like something ultimately was wrong with me. Like I was not enough. And I allowed him.” oh YES to the YES!
Actually had a talk about it with exEUM where he told me “But I never told you were fat/ugly/not beautiful/etc. It was YOUR idea!”. And I replied to him that he never had to say it. Him choosing another woman over me twice, him choosing everyone and ANYONE to spend time with but not me, making sure I was the very last thing on his schedule (and always closer to midnight), keeping me away from people who were important to him – family and friends – gave me the message that I am something dirty, ugly and something to be ashamed of. He did not say that, his actions consistently screamed of that. And I allowed for it. By staying with him I gave my consent that it was okay while I was silently dying inside. Sometimes he’d go to sleep and I’d get up and sit on the couch and cry cry cry not knowing why and feeling so lonely while he was just a few inches away.
Never.ever.again.
Why,
I can relate to everything you are saying. In fact, he gave me compliments here and there, and the most confusing part was that at the same time, he subtly picked on me. It was sometimes indirect and implied. It’s like he had to balance his liking me with some derogatory and picking remarks, so that “I won’t get too flattered and proud.” (that was really his remark, a joke, supposedly, which he had so many). “You are hot and sexy and have amazing body.” And then, “you are not that petite and slender as you think. I have seen much tinier than you.” “You are fit.” “You are too muscular.” “I like your organizational skills.” “You are a mess.” (for tiniest and rare mishap/forgetfulness). This list could go on. It was such crazy making. Moreover, any of my interests, tastes, hobbies were looked at with condescension. His movies, his tastes in music, activities, things to do were always somehow better than mine and deserved more attention and time. I am writing this all out not because I am ruminating and living this all over again. No. (But I am gasping recalling this and thinking to myself, “WHAT IN THE WORLD WAS I THINKING???”) I just would like to help/warn some people who are going through similar stories right now – pre-break up or very early post-break up, so that if they recognize similar behaviors/situations it will at least ring an alarm or help healing because they are not alone. With him, I felt like I was walking on the eggshells. I felt hot yet but not hot enough. Smart but not that smart. Successful but not that successful. I realize only now that he did quite a dripping, eroding effect on whatever little self-esteem I did have back then. It took me a year plus and I still stop myself from comparing myself to other women who are more petite, smarter, professionally successful, etc etc. Now I know it’s all nonsense and I value and love me for who I am. Still working on it, but I am getting there. I know now it was all crazy and it’s the after effect of that person’s influence on me. It shows that a person with low self-esteem, like me back then, who went through a roller coaster situation like that where I felt high and low and very low by the end because I had been defeated with his final cold withdrawal, can find herself literally in the gutter of destruction, self-loathing, self-blame and guilt. It was a dark pit that I had to crawl out after his departure.
Yes, I felt lonely with him too. There were times, after the honeymoon (4-6 months) was over I was extremely self-conscious about everything I did and say in front of him. I had to censure myself and was feeling tense many times. Yes, exactly that too. Dying inside. Anyway, my list could go on. It doesn’t matter anymore what he did. The main thing is that I finally understand that the question is WHY I allowed to be treated like that and tolerate all that behavior? In the last year I have learned and understood why. I have done a tremendous amount of work on myself. I see everything clearly now. I still don’t know the answer to why he flip-flopped, went hot/cold, “loved” me and in 3 weeks he didn’t and broke up with me, etc etc etc. I don’t care about the answer. All the answers we need lie within us. We just need to work hard to get to the core of ourselves. To embrace and love ourselves and gradually let all the pain from the past go.
Sofia,
I am lucky mine wasn’t that bad. Don’t be too hard on yourself, these guys can be so, so manipulative. They have been practicing their whole life at it. You don’t need a answer as to why he did what he did really. A friend of mine told me once “why are you trying to rationalize the behavior of someone who isn’t rational to begin with, he’s effed up!!!”. Some of these characters feed off creating instability in others. I’m still in “the fog” but I do know that it is exactly that. A fog. They sometimes do say strange things. For instance the very last email I received from my Ex actually said this verbatim:
“I raised false hope in you with my confusing behavior and MADE YOU feel awful about YOURSELF”.
WTF??? Who says that?????? His behavior made me feel awful about him, not me.
Sofia,
I have also found that my gut instinct will scream at me to run away when I meet a dangerous man. Other signs are that I can’t be myself around them and that I can’t talk easily to them.
Whenever those three situations play out I know not to get involved any further – nice guys don’t trigger those anxious feelings at all and everything is so much easier and just flows – I can laugh and talk about anything and be myself without any worry or concern they won’t like me. Those are the guys I will be investing my attention in in the future.
See that’s it too! Finally I realized, hey you know what, if my goal is to get him to respect me, letting him put me off with “lets see where this goes” is not going to do jack.
Why, I’m so sorry you went through that.
Sofia, you are so right. I did all my homework on spotting the bad ones out there but failed to realize that sometimes you cannot prove there is something just under the surface. You just have to believe in yourself and trust you over others first. And I was getting that icky feeling. Yes it’s true, I was getting a new weird feeling that somehow I should try harder even though he was dishing out compliments.
I had to learn , when we hear our inner voice saying “Did that seem off? That doesn’t seem to match up with this other thing” to stop. I should have focused more on whether MY feelings and emotional health were met. Me questioning him and trying to nail down answers, What did I think I was going to accomplish?? Was it going to change him? If anything, I wasn’t mentally equipped to take on his stealth smooth smiley face tactics. My brain was already starting to feel like mushroom soup. So tiring. Obviously it’s hard or I wouldn’t be writing here. Even the bad ex psychoguy didn’t have me so mentally weirded out. So yeah that’s my story.. This website.. has been a tremendous help.
freedme,
“I should have focused more on whether MY feelings and emotional health were met.”
And we weren’t because we were too scared to be alone again. Any crumbs would do. There was some positive (I guess if you can even call it that) albeit artificial behavior from them, so that kept us going. It was our investment, lack of self-esteem, last saloon philosophy, and I suspect with most of these guys – attractive and good in bed “problems” that kept us staying. It was a constant anxiety and icky feeling with him too, clouded though the first few months because of all the hot sexual activity, “romantic stuff,” building the castles, etc. It is so so important to not deny your gut feeling and to not minimize it. To walk away if you feel that your boundaries are busted, if someone is shady, if your values rebel and scream against what he said and did. To be able to stand up for yourself and have your own back, self-esteem needs to grow. Our awareness of self has to grow. Without knowledge of ourselves, we are empty vessels that anyone can use for their pleasure, while we are filling up ourselves with their garbage, baggage, dirt, past, emotions, lives etc etc, yet all if it is their stuff. Not ours. We will be continuing filling up our empty vessels with wrong content until we walk away and stay alone for some time, so that we can heal, repair the broken vessel, and fill it up with goods. Our goods: our values, needs, goals, interests, priorities. That’s when the stories of EUs, ACs, and other wrong content end.
“I wasn’t mentally equipped to take on his stealth smooth smiley face tactics”
And why WOULD you be? A GOOD guy wouldn’t be employing tactics. So we get confused. We get manipulated. We believe. We stick around. And it hurts like hell when it’s over.
Hi Sofia,
We both accepted charm loaves from Bakery 419. I never had the “stay away” feeling. I had the wow, this loaf is SOOO good, I need another. But it was such a special recipe, that apparently it was only one per customer. When it’s gone, it’s gone and even the crumbs didn’t last.
But it was the BEST TASTING loaf ever. Exactly what I wanted. The mirror. I still don’t know what was in that loaf, natural or artificial items. Sometimes it’s impossible to tell the difference. I will never visit bakery 419 again. In fact, I’m not even welcome.
Bakery 419. Love it. Online dating is like a manufacturing plant that produces equipment and raw materials for Bakeries 419.
It was a special recipe but that loaf ended up being served as a Sh*t sandwich.
@freedme,
1-EUM-EAT-SH*T
To say something,
Ha ha! Gave me a laugh.
Great comment, freedme. They ARE being nice to cover the cowardice. However, when we become totally honest with OURselves we realise that they were really not kind of nice to US at all. The majority (ahem, 99.99% of them) say those “nice” things not for you, but for themselves – “hey hey, but I am still a nice guy!”. It’s a part of their self-justification scheme. They have to cover this whole dragging you along into their indecisiveness (or sometimes when they outright know you are just a passing time candidate) by giving something ‘nice’ to themselves, to their conscience.
I’ve said this earlier that I am in this acute NO BS period when even the tiniest amount of it is a no go for me. I hope this alertness at this extremely high level will pass (and become a natural but calm awareness) but right now, even at the beginning of a romantic or sexual relationship “I care deeply for you” makes me mentally give a business card to these guys that says “Call 666-BITE-ME”. This is one of the most ambiguous and noncommittal phrases in my vocabulary and I’ve never had a dignified man say this to me ever. Always came from users and ACs.
What’s also interesting is that this type of ACs perceives “friendship” (“let’s stay friends”) as a DOWNGRADE from a romantic relationship. While it most definitely not. Friendship is not a love relationship that did not work out. Friendship is not love without attachment or responsibility. Friendship is not second class ‘ship.
Why, you are right. At the time I didn’t know what boundaries were. No clue. They don’t teach these things and apparently normal “healthy” boundary types don’t let it get this far.
Just got up off my bed, able to stop crying this time after a few minutes and start thinking straight. Ditto the psycopath,went all the way down the aisle with that one but that was just two years ago and now we’re divorced…but an old friend (loooong story) who recently lost his wife (I know Nat has a post on that) has been very nice to me lately. He even saved food from his cookout to bring to me, and spent a little time with me and listened to my concerns before he went out visiting. This time (hopefully) I am wiser. I’m glad to have been there for him to help him get back on his feet and glad to see him getting back out into the world after his harrowing experience. But the feelings I have that make me cry are based on what is real, not what I’m imagining. It’s not about, “Is there someone else?” It’s not about “Did I do something wrong?” It’s not even about “Is there any future for us?” It’s about time I realized I am doing the same thing again. Even though I really like this man, always did, and think highly of him, the price is not right. I’m not sitting home waiting for this man to call. I may stay home — I don’t have to go out just to prove that I can — but I’ll be at home with me doing me. Maybe this year I’ll finally get some of Me done. Thanks for the post and for the response. It is comforting and clarifying.
I have a ways to go from good to great self esteem, but I have learned how important it is to heal and quickly think about what went wrong after I’ve made a mistake and chosen another crappy girlfriend.
The last two have been reruns–I dated one of them in 2000-2003, then again in 2013, off and on for far too long. The most recent trainwreck I had known since high school, through college, and again in our 30s when she was a physician working only an hour away from me.
We split because she had become an Amy Winehouse-style alcoholic and refused to even consider slowing down, much less stopping. Twenty years later (Jan. 2015) Facebook reunited us and she told me almost immediately that she no longer drank. I was happy and more than willing to start seeing her again, so after six months of nightly phone calls, I drove to her place 250 miles away earlier this month. In person, I discovered she still drank, smoked AND had acquired two new addictions: food AND narcotic RX drugs. She also had a ton of diseases and broken bones that didn’t heal well.
Long story short, I left less than a week into the visit, definitely not on friendly terms, then when I got home I called her brother and told him I was done but he might want to check her into rehab or something.
She won’t last out the year at the rate she’s going, but I’m not a therapist nor do I allow big, drunk, dope addict liars to stick around for second or third chances.
I wish she would have taken care of herself, but that was her decision and it still is.
It took a week or so for me to mope and have imaginary conversations and journal about it, but I won’t dwell on anything about her I’ve already contemplated. I’m trying not to ruminate for so long on thoroughly lost causes like her.
Anyway, I have officially added two new boundaries:
1.NO RERUN DATING.
2. If it’s a bad match, get out fast, figure out what hit me, then get on with my generally happy life.
What is that saying? If you go backwards you are likely to trip up over yourself?
Yep, as my mum used to say, you can’t boil your cabbage twice.
Boo!
You appear positive and transparent, something I long for 16 months after breaking up with my ex…I’ve been hit hard with reality since the breakup, being 42, single, no dependants, at an age where you can tell a piss-taker from just a taker, basically stuck in ‘no mans land’ and the issue of self esteem is apparent! I validated my life on being a performing monkey for those that claimed to love and want me…I’m now a muppet without the strings and with that has come the biggest wake up call in my life…’self esteem’…so my question Boo, and Nat of course, how do you start building it back, finding it, recovering it, whatever the word is, I so friggin miss my self esteem more than my ex, thanks guys 🙂
Hi Emm,
It has really taken me 3 years to be able to look back and see how far I have come. I was with that guy for 7 years so it has taken me roughly half the time I was with him to really feel ok – better than ok.
There are a few things I have done to build my self esteem.
1) I had to acknowledge that even though I didnt necessarily think it – I had low self esteem to have stayed with a man like that for 7 years. Once I truly accepted this, which to be honest I still work on accepting – I am able to be more compassionate with myself. I look at the reasons I did have low self esteem such as an absent father, bullying in school etc. This helped me rationalise that these reasons were in the past. I could then try and confine them to the past and work on my future.
2)Once I started to see myself; my thoughts, wants and needs as important, I quickly realised who else in my life did not seem to value me. In those cases, I got rid of one friend. I no longer talk to her, which was a shock to the whole friendship group – we had been close for 10 years, but she was no good for me.
I also faced up to the challenges with other friends who push my boundaries. One particular friend who I thought I may have to cut off, respnded very well to my newly enforced boundaries and our friendship is better for it today.
3) I did what I had wanted to do for a long time with the ex. I did it on my own. I moved city and started a new life elsewhere. This has opened up incredible opportunities for me and has put me on the path to realising a life held dream. I read someone once about how making one change is kind of the catalyst needed to make all the others. – I definitely felt this was true.
This move put my focus 100% on myself. Which is what I needed at this time. I also realised that on focusing on myself more, I was happier and could give to others more who genuinely need me or who have to be in my life in some shape or form. (like negative members of close family)
4)I try very hard to not take on anyone else’s problems anymore. I can be caring and supportive but someone’s problems are not my problems. This really helped me boot out a relationshit with a man who was only out to take take and take from me emotionally. He is unwell and needs a lot of emotional help in the form of therapy and antidepressants. I quickly this time (3-12 months) decided that was a no go. (an improvement on 7 years! 🙂 )
5) I treat every man and relationship as different. Even if I then realise the negative similarites. I try and give everyone a fair chance. This I hope,stops me from becoming bitter. This has naturally improved my response to red flag time.
6)I look after myself in the way that suits me. That means plenty of sleep. Not doing too many social activites in a week. Time on my own. Watching my favourite TV and cooking nice meals for myself. I take regular excercise, just in the form of walking which also helps me to connect to nature which I love. I embraced my gut instinct to take life easier. Not to push or rush things. Anything. Which also means relatinships.
7) I found and keep reading wonderful resources like Baggage Reclaim!!!!!!
8)I also am working on reconnecting with myself spiritually. I have always been a religious/spiritual person – but was perhaps a bit scared? to fully start to embrace the things I feel. I think I have become very much like a little hippy these days, which I like 🙂
So these are the things I did/am doing to improve my self esteem. It is ongoing, it takes dedication and commitment to myself and sometimes I trip up and fall down spectacularly. But I pick myself up and keep going. Although life does not get any easier really, I am finding it easier to deal with by committing to looking after and loving myself. Much like the way I have loved me. I am finally learning to give that to myself.
I hope this helps.
Bx
*much like the way I have loved men
Go for it! Its looking good Boo.
Boo, you’re awesome. Yep, sometimes it takes a tragic/upheaval/humiliating experience to shake us up, blast us into self awareness and reality. It’s now been 4 years since I walked away, literally, from the at work AC. Still alone and hate it but I’ve come a long way.
Some realizations have been positive, some sad, anger provoking yet real:
Unloaded toxic friends who didn’t/couldn’t value me
Some people cannot be emotionally present, walk away from them with figuratively or literally and this may include ones own family.
No older women in my geographic region are having luck either on line or IRL. Yep, my race and lifestyle are an issue but more conventional women are in the same boat in this part of the country tis not just me.
Because of the above, the playing field between men and women in the Southwest is grossly unequal. meaning life is friggin unfair, I will likely stay alone
I no longer enjoy working in my degreed fields. Formal career no longer defines me yet I need to “go through the motions” for a few more years.
I have a very strong creative/artistic streak which I am cultivating, using my home as a large artists pallet
I taught myself to use power tools and have a knack for woodworking, still have 5 digits/hand
If work I perform doesn’t have physical, tangible results, it means nothing to me
Speak my truth in a respectful way, to colleagues, to community. If they disrespect your thoughts, they had always disrespected you anyway.
My body was designed to be highly active, never sedentary. I need to find ways to stay that way during the school year or major depression sets in
Pay attention to climate change/water supply/fossil fuel/economic projections as these will determine ones future far more than any hope for a relationship. Alone or partnered, I won’t be here in my dotage as this region of the country is doomed.
Yep, Boo, it sucks to have been hurt, to be alone not by choice but on the other hand it’s an opportunity to be our true selves and we have a lot more time to get important stuff done. Off to plant tomatoes.
Yep, I am becoming thoroughly convinced that 99.9% of potential partners are not a match and that a large subset of these really shouldn’t be looking for a rship at this point in their lives due to various life situations. It is really a journey of detecting/weeding out problems/incompatibilities at multiple levels. Last week I eliminated a dude who thought we were a perfect match as we were both farmers by choice working jobs that no longer defined us in order to eventually live our true lives. So far, so good. The devil is indeed in the details. I am well on the way toward my goals, learning an alternative, more satisfying career, have an accurate assessment ofhow many years I still have to put in and sadly but realistically that I am indeed too old to find another job in my field; end of the line. My retirement place is already paid for, in a place with adequate water and not expected to be too hammered by climate change. Found out just by keeping my ears open that dude is marginally employed and his retirement time line and place to retire to are totally unrealistic. He wanted a rship with my 100 mile away self yet cannot afford life in his home town let alone commuting; unless yours truly foots the bill for everything. Nope. We didn’t mesh well together either. The old Noquay would’ve seen this as some sort of last chance; the new, wiser but harsher Noquay spotted trouble fast. A couple more contacts this week, all from different time zones. Why? On line dating isn’t going to go away which is good in that those of us in rural areas can only meet folk this way but it is a huge exercise in weed out and self esteem maintenance in the face of constant disappointment and rejection.
What I’ve learned:
If he looks too good to be true, he is; most older men on line are very average looking, sad but true
If you are outside the norm in terms of race, socioeconomic status, lifestyle, beliefs, on line is triply hard. It really works best for those firmly within the norms. Nothing to do with your value per se, it just is what it is.
Older women are expected to settle for men less successful and put together than they, sad but true. We women are judged pretty much solely on our age and whether we fit the conventional standard of beauty. To most, our attainments as individuals are overlooked
Run at the first sign of mixed messages/reluctance to meet in person. The man is either attached or hiding something
Put a minimal free profile on a site first to see if it’s worth subscribing to; this can save you a ton of frustration and money. Sites are hard to get off once you subscribe and some keep your profile on them anyway.
Any inconsistencies between the persons stated socioeconomic status/profession/education level, especially with continued communication means you are dealing with a liar and quite likely a scammer.
Last, so.e folk are really good at deception/living hidden lives/manipulation and even the least trusting person with good boundaries/self esteem/good intuition can be fooled so never emotionally attach too soon and listen to that gut.
Sorry to seem so harsh but you have to go into on line with a pretty thick hide and with eyes wide open.
Last week I was harassed by a guy (online) because I wouldn’t give him my phone number in 48 hrs. Said he didn’t understand what I meant about not being ready to give out my number yet. Oh, but he mocked me all under the pretense of joking that I was the most cautious woman he’d ever ‘met’ online. Threw in some ‘lol’ and ‘haha’ phrases but he was still an arrogant bastard. Told me how I should handle unwanted attention. I didn’t ask for his help. Told me he had a state liquor license and that should speak for itself. Shut up! I opted out.
I guy I actually met in person recently referenced a website and podcast called American Mansy, which provides (F’d up) dating advice for men. According to him, not treating women TOO well and being UNAVAILABLE are qualities that are encouraged. I told him that I did not agree. When asked if we wanted “just drinks” or were we getting food too, he answered “just drinks” without asking me. Anyway, never heard from him again, although he continued to view my online profile.
Yes, I concur. Not a good selection. Put your shirt on. Sit up straight. Wipe the crumbs off your face. Spell basic words correctly. Like something besides hunting, fishing, and NASCAR. Include women of your own age in your search range. Seriously.
Yesterday I read a profile that states verbatim:
“I’m looking ffor a honest, physicaly fit, smart woman. I’ve found that fit people in general have higher self esteem and less BS baggage. I am veery romantic ,giving and passionate. Smart women tend to know what they want and are better in bed.”
Guess smart doesn’t include grammar or spelling.
My subscription is up in six weeks. Round 2 for me is coming to an unsuccessful end.
Yes Noqusy, Harsh is good descriptor.
*Noquay (sorry!)
Noquay, Say something. I share some of your reflections about online dating and particularly about age. I’m being approached not so much by shady people, but by men who are quite a bit older than me – this is not a deal-breaker in itself, but it is when I feel like they are in a different stage in life and have different values, they are looking for a ‘lady’ – which tells me they are old-fashioned and want a woman to complete/rejuvenate/entertain/clean up after them rather than an equal who they will respect and appreciate in her entirety, as I would him. It smacks of ‘middle-aged’, which I mean as a mentality rather than an actual age. I like to think I’ll be young, as in open-minded and progressive, for decades to come!
There was one guy I dismissed because his maximum age was 7 years younger than him, and minimum in the 20s (I was within his range). I see there’s a practical side if he really wants kids, but if I’ve decided that I’d rather not have kids, or adopt, than push myself into an inappropriate life partnership, shouldn’t I demand the same of my man? And that’s assuming the best, maybe he’s just shallow.
I find a lot of variation between the sites. One of them, a major one that has worked for some friends, was intolerable to me. It really did feel like I was ordering some kind of commodity – this height, this weight, this width, this colour, this hair, these eyes, this origin, this age, ‘my best body part is —‘, really weird when you think about it!
Say something – funny profile! It reminds me of some I’ve seen with the tone, ‘I want to meet a smart woman for once, are there any out there?!’ ‘Er yes’, I want to reply, ‘they tend to be around your age for a start ..’.
That guy who harassed you for a phone number – I have learned to have zero tolerance for drama in the dating phase, you just know how terrible it would be down the line, if you’re having this struggle now. And too much smiley faces and ‘lol’ raises my suspicions.
I’ve hit a wall, my subscription has run out, and I’m trying with ‘plan a’ again, to meet as many people as possible in my everyday life. I did meet someone online who just about ticked all the boxes, and a nice, lively person, but after persevering with a 4th date, I felt like the conversation was too much effort and he still seemed alien to me. So I at least know it’s possible, after not thinking so a year ago, but at the same time, seems like the most difficult thing in the world. Good advice Noquay.
Happy b
Yep, it never fails to amaze me that these older dudes truly think a 20 something is going to fall head over heels for them. I am sorry you have to deal with that; my version of this is the very sedentary dudes that work min wage jobs or not working, thinking my highly active, professionally employed self is perfect for them. Either case, you wanna pull your hair out and cancel your sub pronto. Maybe it’s my old age showing or my knowledge of basic biology, but sorry, a 40-50 something male ought NOT to be looking to have kids; sorry its over, not meant to be. The point of child rearing is to actually be in a place to have the energy/desire/time to actually be a part of your child’s life. End rant. You have the right to not want to have kids; in this overpopulated world, one could say in a way not having kids is a moral imperative. When I was young, after raising bro, I deliberately avoided anyone wanting to do the family thing. Its Ok. This isnt 1950. Speaking as a chick who truly IS a lady, albeit a self sufficient one, the problem with so many of these older dudes you describe is that they’re not in a place to be gentleman! If these guys want basically a caretaker, they have to actually BE in a place to be a provider. The reality is that they kinda expect you, the lady to be both AND be sweet and 25 while they can contribute little to a relationship themselves. Like you, I wish it were possible to meet healthy men IRL; on line is just freaking crazy.
Noquay/ Happy b
I see so many men online 40s and 50s never married BUT “want kids someday” in their profiles. And also a large % follow this example: 47, looking for 30-45 yr old women. MY preference is CLOSE to my age, within 5 years either way, so that’s a 10 yr range, which is comfortable TO ME without being too limiting. So when a guy 10-25 yrs away from my age thinks we are “a match” I don’t get it. Not interested list that can be immediately apparent:
Not within 5-7 yrs of my age
Unstable financially
Unstable/unavailable emotionally
Currently separated
Can’t compose a sentence
Disrespectful
Smoker
You can’t remember my name
Physically unattractive (and I don’t mean AVERAGE is unattractive, but OMG so many look like they live in the basement and haven’t seen daylight or a mirror)
Recently ran into a male acquaintance who is almost 50. His new 30 something wife is pregnant. His kids are young adults. Guys CAN and WILL become fathers at 50, 60, 70 BECAUSE THEY CAN.
Reasons guys think I should meet them based on virtual interaction only. For real:
He holds a state liquor license
I seem nice
We have so much in common
I need to be FAIR
I am THE ONE
He lives in a gated community
He feels like he just hit the lottery
He’s really really REALLY interested
His yard is dandelion free
I’ve about had it. Never met any of the guys referenced above. And re. 419, meeting online often means you will have no access to the person’s background. I often wonder with BGE, if I’d known his background IRL, would it have matched up with what he TOLD me? I’ll never know.
Say something
I do date older than myself but I am in my 50’s and am kind of an old soul and always have been. I would add to your list: physically unhealthy (sadly, 71% of Boomer men are overweight), as this never ends well, potheads, and excessive drinkers; these two rarely end well.
Yes Noquay,
Unhealthy and/or addicts are included on my DEALBREAKER list. Same with racist and mean/rude. I think it’s a personal choice for age, same as appearance. I’m about ready to deactivate my online account in the next few weeks.
When I was dating I actually preferred men a few years younger than me or my age. I’m extremely active and eat well and am young at heart. Guys my age are often slower, heavier and want to sit home on the couch instead of going to a concert, kayaking or something fun!
Yep, that your stellar achievement in life is a liquor license, will not be bothered to spell or punctuate (seriously, even if you’re dyslexic, a self aware would have SOMEONE ELSE edit your profile, same as any other writing that can reflect upon you), lack of consideration, all these things DO speak for themselves. BTW the dude didn’t state that HE was smart :). That site for men is kinda in the theme of this post; a person accepting poor treatment, unavailability, is one without self esteem.
@say something
I’m not sure which country you’re in but I like to use Google voice for that very reason. I use it for guys I don’t know very well and then I don’t have to give them my real number. It’s like getting an email address for online dating – if you have issues it’s easy to change.msane with their numbers. It’s also much harder to track than a cell number if you run into issues with someone.
I have it set up where it still goes to my phone so it’s pretty convient too.
Thanks Allison,
When I upgrade my phone this sounds like a GREAT option. My old OS won’t support most apps. Sounds like I need to do some research. I’m in the US.
I always say about the I/T work I do is “You never learn anything until something goes wrong.” That’s why those who have had to fix a variety of logic problems over the years have developed a sort of “ear” for problems. You get that because of the battles you fought in the past, and you are more valuable because of it. It’s a shame we don’t feel that way about the battle scars of dating. Dating a-holes should make it easier to recognize and avoid a-holes. And I think it does…but somewhere we keep hoping to be the exception, or that “he” is the exception.
I also always said “don’t ever go back” in terms of re-dating someone you used to see. ACMM was a revisit, and I knew it didn’t work before, but I was tired of being alone, thought he was better than nothing, wanted something familiar…and once again, it was a BIG MISTAKE. No way is that a surprise. The only difference is that, this time, for the first time, I started looking into the “whys” behind my self-abusive behaviors. For me, it’s all about validation.
Nat, so timely! I wish I hadn’t talked myself into believing a friend who wreaked a tsunami of damage in my heart. Now I see it so clearly and wonder how I stop him using another friend?
I literally want to go nuclear and annihilate him from existence – he is that repulsive to me now. However, I will probably stick to my own ‘computer’ and outline my reasons if asked. Sigh, it is so obvious when you see it.
Yes, this is good to see. I finally got to the point where I could look past him when he approached as if he wasn’t there. Is my self-esteem still so low because I seem to be mourning this loss such as it is? I think I should be happy and satisfied with myself that I did the right thing but instead I feel the loss of this non relationship.
Exactly, shouldn’t I feel proud of the boundaries I have built? No, I’m sad because I need walls to protect myself.
Good lord this is so helpful and such perfect timing! After being single for a few months and really taking timing to work on myself, I accepted an invite from my ex to go for lunch. I hadn’t seen him in 3 years, and while I knew he had been bad news for me in so many ways, I was so excited to see him! I really had been crazy about him then, but we lived in different cities and it just didn’t work.
We met up two weeks ago though and had a really great time. He seemed super into it but also kept asking me about my break up (like he wasn’t sure it was over.)
I really had no idea where things stood afterwards. He seemed like he wanted to get together again (said so, unsolicited) but we didn’t make a set plan. I felt like maybe he was trying to give me space because of the break up, or maybe he likes someone else. I don’t know.
Anyways, we had a drunken text exchange a couple nights ago (instigated by me) in which I asked him if he wanted to see each other again? He seemed excited about it and happy, but also cautious about being a rebound guy (said this). I told him I loved him (stupid, I know, but I was quite drunk). He said he really liked him too but was worried about getting involved when I may not be over my ex yet. Ok, fine. I didn’t know what to say to this so said nothing.
The next day, I texted and said sorry about that. He said, don’t worry about it, all good. But then nothing for a week.
I should have been more cautious I guess with my feelings because this guy, while super charming, had been seriously hurtful to me a few times in the past. Kind of controlling and a bit of a big ego. Anyways, despite knowing he has the capacity for meanness, I was feeling really happy and excited this evening becausewe had had such a good time the other week and I just felt in my heart like he loved me. but then later that evening. I checked his public twitter account (a bad habit, I know) and there was a tweet exchange between him and this other girl in which she tweeted an old picture of them skyping and he tweeted back, “that was a long time ago. You look so good in that photo xoxo.”
What the fuck? Can anyone help me understand this crazy-making behaviour? What is this man up to?
I looked on her twitter page afterwards and her tweets have to do with being single and how she wishes she had a boyfriend, so they’re not together. Is he trying to make me jealous? Why? Does he like me? Why doesn’t he just text like a normal person if so? Does he like her? Why doesn’t he just message her privately if so? I just told the guy I love him, for christssake. Who in their right mind (knowing that their tweets are public and saying stuff like that could hurt) would do that?? Is he just a player? I seriously don’t understand his behaviour. Please help interpret this.. Anyone who can!!
Hi Calla,
From what you write here, I think he has been quite clear and that there is not much to really try and understand.
He likes you but is worried that you are not over your ex.
You two are not in a committed relationship so surely he is within his rights to ‘flirt’ with someone over twitter or anyone else for that matter?
You don’t address if you are over your ex or not?
I suspect you are not. I also suspect strongly that you are not ready to be involved with this guy or anyone else yet. I say this because it seems as though a lot of hope was put on this encounter. Too much hope.
I feel there is a desperate tone to your post. There is no need to rush and find someone else. You are enough on your own and a bit more time and work will help you to see that if that is what you would like to do.
Best
B x
Calla – I think you have to take him at his word. He might have ‘seemed excited’ but he *told* you that he’s worried he’d be a rebound guy. Moreover, you seem to know that he wasn’t all that good for you when you were with him: he’s ‘kind of controlling’ has a ‘big ego’ and a ‘capacity for meanness’ so I have to wonder why you’d want to be back with him anyway? This smacks of a classic ‘heart over head’ situation and we all know how those turn out.
Also why did he suddenly pop up after three years or was it that he knew that you’d become single again at that point? If he knew you were recently out of a relationship then he would *already know* he’d likely be a rebound guy so I have to question why he’d try to progress things? Could it be one of the situations Natalie describes in a video i.e. he wants to keep a foothold in your life – popping up every so often to see if you still ‘have it’ for him – but doesn’t actually want to get back with you? I would just have some suspicious around that.
Anyway regardless of all that, top line data is that you haven’t heard from him in a week after he SAID he has concerns PLUS he’s obviously still footloose and fancy free, flirting around on Twitter – and I wouldn’t take that as him trying to make you jealous either. The ball’s in his court at this point but if it were me I’d move on to a more positive situation as getting back with exes rarely works anyway.
Do not go there Calla – grow some self esteem – this man is not for you – he told you twice NO after you told him you loved him – which you admit was when you were drunk!! so of course he isn’t persuing you – focus on yourself – drunken admissions of love are rarely attractive once sober to anyone – look upon it as an easy escape.
I’m with Claire A. the guy was just flirting and wanting attention – no harm in seeking you out for the sake of his own ego (insert sarcasm). It obviously works on Twitter!
If he said he thought of himself as a rebound guy then he has already given himself a way out AND a reason to blame you when it ends. Smooth move.
If you are in a good frame of mind, look at Chump Lady. It might mess with your views for a bit, but it could help.
@Calla, I think the danger might be that you put your feelings out there, now if he doesnt reciprocate you feel you’re rejected. So instead of dealing with what it is that makes you not only drunk text problematic exes that are being flaky but ALSO tell them you love them (?? that btw should, I say should, turn any rational person off because its … not genuine. You dont love this man, you can’t, you havent seen him in three years and are just getting out of something. So thats not a real emotion, thats a game playing emotion and my guess is you’re playing not only with him, but with yourself, avoiding your own feelings about your breakup etc).
Please recognize your responsibility in this – and responsibility sounds like a very serious word considering that all that happened is some silly exchanges. Lets keep perspective here, its not like you’re in a relationship or anything. But your responsibility was that you put out mixed signals, and frankly he hasn’t as much. He doesnt love you, he doesnt want anything more than a brief meet and greet perhaps to keep a foothold, perhaps curiosity, perhaps whatever. And he’s allowed to tweet anyone anything he wants – he’s single, you have no claims. And what he tweeted that person seems a bit – childish tbh, but still perfectly normal, and nothing whatsoever to do with you.
You end with serious questions about him, but thats just deflection. You have to ask those questions about yourself. The key to most of boundaries and self-esteem is to realize that we can’t control others, only ourselves. You can control not texting exes that you love them, not accepting dinners with them, not rekindle past relationships with such impulsiveness.
Note there is a freudian slip in your write up; you say you like him, and that he likes ‘him’ too… perhaps you’re recognizing that he doesnt like YOU. and also, I often thought of my ex-EUM, that the real problem was that I liked him, and so did he (like himself).
*Hope this doesnt sound too harsh. NOthing that you did is wrong, not morally wrong, just — you’re running ahead of yourself to avoid stuff in your life, trying to fill it with things, exactly as Nat says – trying to avoid doing things the hard way. You are trying to quickly get back in with someone that you already love so you can avoid being alone, working at a relationship, being rejected etc. And now finding its not that easy. Take care of yourself, be kind, and sit with your thoughts because you are avoiding and deceiving yourself.
“I talk to a hell of a lot of people about dating both on and offline. One common theme I’ve noticed in those who haven’t damn near lost their mind or certainly their faith, is that they don’t entertain the ‘spammers’ and ‘scammers’ of this world once it becomes apparent. They don’t blame themselves, they don’t try to turn a pig’s ear into a silk purce, and they accept that part of their remit and obligation is to filter out the undesirables because they accept that this exists rather than labouring on the fact that they think that it ‘shouldn’t’.”
I must be doing something right then Nat because I’m not even close to losing my mind. I don’t actively seek out people on the website and just wait to see who messages me. Then, I automatically delete some based on criteria that for me suggests something is amiss or else indicates the person is not looking for what I am looking for. I really feel positive about how I’m progressive even if I’m not dating tons of people (just one, one-off date so far). A slow pace is fine by me. I’m busy leading a life here and not willing to make time for any dodgy peeps! 🙂
Thank you so much Boo…a definite real and genuine insight which I will embrace…I see the light at the end of the tunnel and sure enough the walk is taking some time but I will get there, and your comments have helped me make a good few more strides 🙂 all the best guys
Natalie spectacular analogy thank you – really good.
My self esteem issues definitely has directly contributed to my lack of success in both relationships, career and life issues and lowered my health/wealth and happiness levels substantially. Self esteem either needs an equal footing with all your other needs or even more if you are able.
The biggest problem I think I have with self esteem – is – I didn’t really KNOW what it meant in a day to day existence – but I know now what it certainly doesn’t mean and that is where I have started from.
Thanks Boo and Claire, I feel like I’m over my ex, but maybe not (it was a long relationship, but I ended it). Throughout the relationship, this ex would pop back up to say hi but seemed to be really trying to suss out whether I was still with bf. I would say hi to him from time to time too. I was confused because he seemed to really like me/want to be together, but now I’m single and he does nothing. The opposite of nothing really: publicly flirting with other girls.
I appreciate your feedback on seeming desperate. I think I need more time alone bc I was way too excited and hopeful about this, when he is being completely the opposite. Also, he was a jerk to me before. This totally is heart over head situation. Thank you for the feedback! Now to move on…
@ Calla – Ah, so he did used to pop up now and again whilst you were in your last relationship! Maybe there is an element of him wanting an ego stroke then and that could be why he asked you out – he will probably also have got a further ego boost from knowing you still have feelings for him. This would certainly fit with him being egotistical, as you say he is.
I’m not sure whether you’ve seen Natalie’s video about exes who keep crawling out of the woodwork but it’s well worth a watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xvd2szQcFN4
It does sound very sensible to take more time to yourself whilst you process everything – no need at all to rush into dating again.
Hi everyone,
Just wanted to take the time to tell everyone it’s been 2 weeks of NC with ex-EUM and WOW, talk about out of sight/out of mind. He hasn’t tried to contact me and I’ve been able to take him off a pedestal and see him for what he truly is, and have realized I’m no longer looking at my phone waiting for a message from him and am thinking of him less and less. Amazing what two drama-free weeks can do!
Online dating is weird, I agree. Most guys 40+ are pretty average, into fishing/hunting/NASCAR, etc. at least where I live, in the Midwest US. I have had a couple coffee dates recently, and while there weren’t necessarily any sparks, they were decent guys and I’m enjoying getting out and meeting new people. Wow I sound so healthy! We can do this. Love to you all.
I like the sound of decent guys!!.
There are plenty of decent guys out there, we just have to wade through lots of warty old frogs to find them.
Don’t give up.
I’ve been lurking here for a while but this is my first time posting. This site is amazing, and I’m finally learning that boundaries don’t make me unkind or bitter. They are a way of being kind to me. I know I will be a lot smarter at recognizing those who mean me no good. I think I’m finally done with my UEM/AC but I’m struggling with NC and questioning if I imagined the whole thing. I appreciate any insight.
After my divorce last year I started talking to an old college boyfriend through Facebook. It was friendly, but quickly escalated. But we never talked about a possible relationship since we live in different states. But he really laid on the compliments, charm and attention. After chatting non-stop for a couple months he invited me to stay with him at a conference he was attending a few hours away. I went, the chemistry was still there, and we had a great time.
As soon as we got back to our respective cities, he started dated another woman. When I told him it hurt my feelings he acted like he didn’t understand why, he thought we were just old friends who enjoyed having sex with each other. He said he cared very much for me and didn’t mean to hurt my feelings. I chalked it up to me not being clear with what I wanted, and agreed to continue the friendship. I told him I was not interested in being a FWB, but I did value our friendship.
Things quickly fizzled out with his new relationship. In the meantime, he would text me incessantly, relying very heavily on me as an emotional support system. Once again, things escalated, and our conversations turned to sexting. He kept bringing up the things we would do and places we would go if I came to visit him. This went on even when he started seeing someone else. He claims this new woman is his soulmate, he’s never felt this way before, he was in love with her immediately, even though he was still sexting me non-stop for the first month and a half of the relationship. He’s already talking about marriage. His third.
I was hurt that once again he threw out a crumb and I took it for a loaf, and at the same time he’s pretending like he’s a knight in shining armor with this new woman. To make matters worse, he feels the need to tell me all the details of his relationship, including his sex life. At first I assumed he was just excited and happy to have a new love in his life. But after hearing intimate details almost every day (how many times, how long it lasted, what she said, etc.), I had enough. I told him it made me uncomfortable and I wasn’t interested in hearing the details. He acted surprised and made it seem like it was strange for me to even say that to him. And I haven’t heard from him since.
I see I still have a lot of work to do on my boundaries. And I made the mistake of thinking his compliments, kind words, attention, and attraction meant a possible relationship. But did I imagine this whole thing? This was a completely different level than what I think of as “friends”, and I’m left feeling hurt, angry, and betrayed.
Bamboozledbychoice,
I am so sorry! He is an insenstive jerk! As much as it hurts to believe but he was using you! Then he has the nerve to act like he did nothing wrong! Cut him off!!!!!!!! I find it strange that if he is so in love, then why is he still calling you! Leave him alone and spend your time fixing you. You deserve better! Hugs!
Bam,
Facts (your exact words):
he thought we were just old friends who enjoyed having sex with each other
he started dating another woman
I told him I was not interested in being a FWB
conversations turned to sexting
he started seeing someone else. He claims this new woman is his soulmate, he’s never felt this way before, he was in love with her immediately, even though he was still sexting me
after hearing intimate details almost every day (how many times, how long it lasted, what she said, etc.), I had enough
You have had MORE than enough. He’s a douche. You had a physical attraction with him. NOTHING GOOD CAN COME OF PUTTING UP WITH HIS BS. He’s doing it because you ALLOW it. He is not good for you, except to use him as the example of what you never want. Ever. You can walk away with your dignity intact. You can. Don’t go back.
Bamboozledbychoice,
I am so sorry to hear that, it is just what I went through too.
They know what they are doing. The AC apologised once by saying he wanted to remove the knife in my heart. Oh, thanks?
I told him I had feelings for him and that got rid of him quick smart, feelings aren’t what they want, casual fun is better. Of course the feelings I had were hurt, disgust, suspicion and anxiety which I realised thanks to this site and Chump Lady.
Big hugs and No Contact will help.
@Bamboozled: “This went on even when he started seeing someone else. He claims this new woman is his soulmate, he’s never felt this way before, he was in love with her immediately, even though he was still sexting me non-stop for the first month and a half of the relationship.” This tells you everything you need to know about this guy. If he’d do this to her, what do you think he’d be doing to you? Same thing. Be glad you’re not her. Flush!
I had a similar situation recently where a guy was after me for the first six months of his relationship – that I didn’t even know about! I managed to discover he had a girlfriend from investigating online – but it was still 50% pure chance that I found her Facebook page with evidence of the two of them together all over it. Some kind of guardian angel was clearly smiling on me that day! She has NO idea what a character she’s involved with – thank God I’m not her!
@bam: but were you bamboozled? You knew he had a gf, you knew you didn’t want FWB, you knew he was sexting you – he knew you knew he was sexting while having a gf. So wheres the deception? Its rotten, silly, immature, kind of icky to sext someone while in a relationship – thats something you needed to stop since theres nothing there, no dignity, no love, no fun etc.
So. It seems to me that it was a weird, yucky thing to happen, but he didn’t really take you for a ride? He didn’t promise anything did he? And he made it clear that he was a man with no class and that he didn’t want a relationship with you, just to sext you when bored with his gf.
I guess I’m trying to say – why the drama? Your screen name paints you as someone deceiving yourself. That might be. But — you werent really bamboozled. So what did you deceive yourself about?
Suki, I deceived myself that he cared about me. I took his constant need for me to give him attention, an ego stroke, whatever, as meaning he had feelings for me. I place the blame squarely on myself, I was a willing passenger on this ride and I refused to see the truth for what it was.
No Bamboozled, do not ‘place the blame squarely’ on yourself – you are responsible for the behaviours that Suki describes above = your behaviours = that you can do something about.
– you are NOT responsible for him & his behaviour’s ie taking advantage of your obviously misguided generosity(low self esteem which someone with self esteem can see a mile off) & your hope – any man worth his salt (with self esteem) does not take advantage in this manner without a girlfriend, let alone also with one!
By taking ALL the blame this becomes an issue about beating yourself up for being soooo bad, such a bad person = you deserve all the bad things you get – which destroys the very thing Natalie talks about in this article – SELF ESTEEM! – so that you go on to repeat the same thing again & again & again but dressed up in slightly different clothes each time – only seeing it when it has ended yet again…
Break the habit! Grow some self esteem – look at what you can do to protect yourself/ Suki’s questions but do not ever take ALL the blame – squarely on yourself please.
@Bam; Ooona is right – you are blaming yourself excessively. But — if you feel so responsible, why didn’t you stop yourself earlier? You almost want to have your bitter cake and eat it too! Double the pain! Sign me up! Why??
I think a lot of times, we go along with something silly, feeling bad the whole time, then its over, THEN we start a whole fresh cycle of feeling awful about how awful we think we were. Then another cycle about feeling awful about feeling awful – basically we’re saying to ourselves that we get nothing right. You need to write down all your lessons from this, what did you do at what time in the whole relationship, what could you have done differently, what stopped you doing those things – end with the lessons, and you’re done. You extracted the lessons from your little misadventure and now you can move on.
You didn’t do FWB – check! good for you.
You cut if off – check! good for you.
You realize you enabled him – check! good for you.
You are here on BR reading and thinking – many checks!!
I think the best thing here is that you turned down FWB – thats the smartest smartest thing. Sometimes it takes a while to fully disengage because as women we tend to be soooo nice, so lovely, so pleasant, for fear of disapproval. Whereas I think if we’re smart we realize that we shouldn’t crave approval or friendship from such shady characters. What friendship can a casual sex partner provide? None. Especially when he is sexting you? Friends dont sext. I dont sext my friends. THey dont sext me. They would especially hear it from me if they sexted me AFTER getting a gf / bf. Sheesh.
So Bam, be choosy, you’re worth more than this type of useless empty tepid deceitful interactions with a fool.
So in fact you should be happy you didn’t do FWB because if you did, you’d really feel self-loathing at this point because you’d have created a bigger old mess for your self-esteem.
Have fun Bam. Put this fool out of your mind. Not even fool, just a classless guy not worth your time.
You all have given me a lot to think about. I appreciate the feedback.
This has been going on with him for the past 10 months, and I see the pattern. He comes on strong, says all the right things, just enough to make me think he really cares and there is some kind of possible future for us. Then he resets to “friends” while he pursues some other woman. And wants me there as his cheerleader the whole time. And I don’t call him on it because I don’t want to appear like I read anything more into it. God forbid I appear like a “normal” human being, worthy of respect & honesty.
He’s an ass, and not worth anyone’s time. But I’ve been hanging in there, so I need to look at why I stayed in the situation. Obviously I’m also emotionally unavailable. I’m working on my self esteem and boundaries. And I’m also looking at why I don’t want to own my feelings. If I have a want or a need, I have to be able to express it. They may or may not be willing to meet it, but playing it safe by going along with whatever they are willing to offer is a guaranteed way letting others know I have no expectations, so they can treat me however they choose.
I don’t want to be that woman anymore.
On the one hand – I feel confrontation IS possibly my biggest fear – the fear that I will be left with worse or experience worse, if I rock the boat ie the – there is no choice feeling.
On the other hand – perhaps it is really fear of success? – ie having to have a real relationship with people where the possibility of losing the relationship and being responsible for myself, is actually always real and realistic – (we can’t always get along with everyone and no one is perfect, including ourselves – right?)
So yes looking at the Why? we allow it – square in the face – the What is the underlying fear for yourself here? question – IS helpful to understanding and putting strategies in place to AVOID it – ONLY – this fear makes itself more known definitely when I am NOT following my gut, rather than when I am.
Bamboozled, this man is disgusting. You said that he’s acting like a knight in shining armour to this other woman ~ I feel sorry for her as well. The guy has been sexting someone else while supposedly thinking he’s found the love of his life? That’s BS. And telling you stories of his sex life with her is beyond messed up. I was once involved with an AC who did something similar ~ he had broken things off but kept me hanging on and periodically acted like we had something more. Then he started telling me all about some other woman he was involved with and acted shocked and disregarded it when I asked him why he would tell me something like that and that I didn’t want to hear it. I think he enjoyed telling me something that would hurt me or make me ‘jealous’. I’m sorry you’ve experienced this, but at least he’s shown you who he is and you’re free of him.
Bamboozled, aren’t you bothered by the thought that he’s (over)sharing the intimacies between you two with other people?
Honestly, Mephista, I can’t really do anything about it. It is a very real possibility. And if he’s sharing that information with his new girlfriend, I actually feel bad for her. It’s painful to hear someone you care about talk that way. I can’t control what he does, but I can decide not to participate anymore.
This morning Mr. Scammer using someone else’s identity for his/her pictures and a fake Faceplant profile is baaaack! First this person used one identity by which he was in contact with me, then he had another profile, different pic, same town with the exact same wording of the profile. This time round he has the pic of one and uses the name of another. Made my morning turning them in. Not to scammers: use da brain, eh?
I was just thinking about how I needed to filter out the bad profiles! My experiences so far have told me that people too lazy to write a good one are not really looking for anything serious.
Thank you for confirming everything I’ve been feeling!
I think the hardest part is feeling disappointed in myself. As soon I saw that what he said didn’t match up to what he did, I should have walked.
I am happy that I finally did see it, and I haven’t wasted years like I would have in the past. Progress!
Totally – b. – the key as Natalie says though IS self esteem in the first place and the problem is you can’t be growing self esteem while beating yourself up (rightfully or not) and only looking at your negatives – leading to a denial of the full picture.
It is a really hard balance to make – on the one hand being able to open your vulnerable self to your real critism that CAN actually help you – while closing off your inner critism that clearly doesn’t help and has possibly led you here in the first place.
I think that’s why time and distance play such a role in healing emotional wounds (if we are lucky) – in that the more distance we get, the more time we are able to focus on ourselves and balance out that damning critical voice in our own heads…?
Be good to yourself – Bamboozled – not overly and unbelievably to yourself, but enough, so that you are treating yourself with love and respect and not beating yourself up while the other tango participant dances around you in circles in your head.
Recently I saw pictures of him with a gal at a music festival. I had this immediate stab in the heart. I thought I was the only one that went to things in that city with him! Why didn’t he choose ME to go with him? Seriously, my first thoughts. And then I remembered….oh because I haven’t seen him in months and we don’t sleep together anymore. So why did I have a knife in my heart? Well I gave my secret self to him at one time. And now he’s finding out secrets with another woman, and another, and another. Pictures make it real. And I continued to have a real sick feeling in the pit of my stomach for hours. And my concentration at work was crazy all over the place. So I focused on indifference, indifference, indifference. My low self-esteem was an enabler to this fool. The self-esteem I am working on just feels sorry for the woman in the pictures. Bazinga!
Rewind – I remember being at the first stage of self esteem where I turned it from ‘loving him’ constantly and feeling jealous / envious of anyone who was able to spend time with him – to feeling sorry for any other woman I imagined going through what I went through with him or worse.
However – if its real self esteem & the reality is he is never going to be in your future – you stop PAYING ANY attention to people who have hurt you – by looking at photos with him in, going to spaces you used to go to with him, fantacizing or imagining whole conversations with him that just happen to work a bit better for you this time because of course its in your head and ITS NOT REAL, simultaneously damaging your soul and wasting the time you should be spending on your SELF ESTEEM – ie doing actions that will not leave you feeling bad over & over again – being COMPLETELY non contact, in body and mind – until it stops hurting you anymore.
Don’t feel sorry for the imaginary her – feel sorry for yourself – can YOU be kind and caring and loving to yourself now?
Working on it!!
Me too.
” Well I gave my secret self to him at one time.”
Ouch. Even I felt that.
@Rewind… I hear you. It’s hard to see that, imagining she’s getting what you wanted. She’s not. He didn’t magically change. That’s the con – this idea that, if you could have just been an accommodating, selfless partner with no needs, opinions or self… Well. You know the rest. She’ll figure it out too.
I ran across this link today and wow, does it nail the stuff we’re talking about on this blog too:
I particularly like the bit about “man puzzles.” That is spot on.
I had that idea I could be friends with the EU I fell for but, like you say, the twinges feel like shit when you see stuff that we interpret as a slight to us. It’s not. We’re doing that to ourselves, inside. That’s our homework.
I also want to mention that I recently admitted to myself that I wanted to be friends with him, not as a genuine move, but with a secret agenda that he will have a front row seat to my successes and achievements – to get a kick out of rubbing his nose in what he’s not good enough to have. Of course, this is still me seeking his worthless approval/validation and he’ll never do that. He’s so lost and mired in his crap… I felt awkward being “friends” telling him about all the fun shit I’m doing when his world is chaos. Since I’m not the armchair therapist anymore, there’s nothing left to do but live my life. I am working on letting go of that notion that I’m proving something to him. It doesn’t fucking matter. May he sort his shit out… Far away from me.
My wish for us all is to set them aside long enough that we can submerge ourselves in projects, activities and people that nourish and recharge us rather than drain and steal from us. Once we get busy/focused on our needs/goals/life, there’s just no time/energy for these guys anymore and… Voila… We ourselves become emotionally available to ourselves and others.
Michelle, how good was that advice?
The AC I knew has a beautiful, thin, perfect wife. Yet she is 10 years younger and the deep set stress lines have set in. I caught her reflection once when she looked away after he engaged in a pointless, convoluted conversation. She looked like it hurt, in a really deep way, like a trapped resignation.
Yep, NicW, I am morbidly curious when he will meet/date someone seriously, to lay eyes on who will tolerate the nonsense. And the relief to have dodged the bullet.
@Michelle. Thanks!!
My pleasure!
3 months ago I went on a date with a guy I had conversed with on internet for about 6 years. We hit it off, had 2 great dates. He emailed me (did not telephone) that he wanted to take me to the Opera. I replied that Id love to. He never replied to my acceptance and then today, I receive another email asking me if I want to go out again ! Three months later.
I could have just ignored it I guess, but instead I emailed back and told him that his behaviour did not make me feel special and that I only invest my time and energy into men who make me their priority.
He then deleted me off FB and any other connections we had.
Maybe I should not have said anything, but men like this IRRITATE me.
What are other’s thoughts on men who behave like this and expecting to still being given a chance?
@ High Self,
I guess I wonder… What were you doing with this guy online for SIX years? It took SIX YEARS to get a first and second date? In that respect, three months is progress. Perhaps he has returned to virtual guy, where it seems like you both had a comfort zone with each other. For SIX YEARS you didn’t meet in person and now you question his ability to engage with you outside of the Internet? You both accepted and participated in a virtual connection. For SIX YEARS. That’s simply who he is.
Well done, you! Stood up for yourself, stated your boundaries, followed through with consequences. What he thinks is immaterial. Also, note he didn’t ask for a chance, I assume he didn’t explain etc etc. Dont second guess yourself.
He fell off the face of the earth for 3 months, and has no explanation – forget it.
You just delete and block them after they reappear months later, or preferably even after the silence to your e-mail, which should have been a phone call first of all, on his part. I used not to understand and believe that people, “grown-up” men like that exist, but they do. Do not spare a moment of your thought or energy on why. Rather ask yourself why you even care about this person and need his attention.
You talked to him on the internet for 6 years and you had never met until just recently? That kind of “relationship” should be an answer in itself.
Stay away from internet invested men. Consider yourself lucky he is out of his game with you fast!
You have avoided a calamity no matter what he looks like on paper, flesh or in your current fantasy. Come back to reality – did he make you genuinely feel loved, respected and accepted for who you are? Or did his actions make you feel you need to be better – to get him?!!?
Reality
He choose to block you – bamboozling you into feeling YOU did wrong? Rather than take responsibility for what HE did, explaining and apologizing? He basically dumped HIS guilt on you.
Stop beating yourself up for being kind and giving him one chance to put right what he did originally – that hurt you! One chance is acceptable – wouldn’t you want one chance for something you had done wrong or made a mistake on? – the point is HE choose not to take you up on your kind offer for the second and last time – and so now you have EARLY knowledge that this man is utterly untrustworthy and unable to face his own responsibilities and failings and engage appropriately within a relationship with you – go out and do a song and dance immediately!…this IS the early warning system!!!! – were you expecting to come across, only, people who would show you they love and value you, upon one mention of a boundary? This is what you may need (and rightfully so) but it is not who this man is.
Wow internet communication for six years is a looooonnnnngggg time! Do you live in the same town as he does or was it LD? Either way, it’s a case of “shit or get off the pot” to me. I recently had an ongoing email exchange with a guy on POF which lasted for about 14-16 emails back and forth over a period of 5 weeks and I just gave up on him ever actually asking me out on a real face to face date. I simply stopped replying – no excuses, no explanations. What a waste of energy! If he were to send an email now I honestly wouldn’t bother replying. Life’s too short to waste time or energy on these non-committal people.
@Poppy, a lot of guys (and probably women) are online just looking for a little fun. They’re married/have girlfriends, etc. This is how they get a little charge. If a guy doesn’t ask you out within a couple of days communicating, flush.
I’m getting lots of reminders that I have lots to learn about how to protect myself. Maybe it’s really a ways to go before I fully trust what I sense is the best way to protect myself. There’s so many new people and none of them have earned my trust, so I find myself internally eyeing them! Try to discern if their sincere or if they have an agenda. I don’t want to swing too far in the other direction where I’m suspicious of everyone.
I’ve gotten some reassurance that it’s not just me that feels anxious and annoyed by my bosses behavior from witnessing others reactions. He is solely responsible right now for something that everyone in the company relies on. Something he had referred to as ‘busy work’ when I asked him about it when I first started.(Is that arrogance??) The day it was due, he couldn’t figure out how to do it. He had a strict deadline and he wasn’t going to make it and it was on him and only him. He had not planned. He had not taken the time to learn the system. He was rattled big time and sweating it as the day went on.
I felt panicky and wanted to rescue but sat in my office and felt it instead.
I was surprised that people were coming to me to solve the problem. I let them know that I didn’t have access to the system. One woman looked disgusted when she told me that he told her he didn’t know how to do what she needed done. She went to my boss to ask if I could help her, he said no. She said ‘he’s just sitting there with the program open in front of him.’ Another Director called me over and asked me to intervene and I let him know that it wasn’t up to me, and that my boss had said no.
My boss was getting angrier as the day went on. When I left for the day, he was still there…first time that’s ever happened! He didn’t make the deadline. He missed the staff meeting the next day because he was trying to fix it and they announced that’s why he wasn’t there. The President just looked down at the table when it was announced. I wonder now if he has a reputation for this sort of thing.
I wish I knew how the powers that be really felt about all of this.
Now I realize why there’s a line up with people who have questions and why they’re relieved to see me, they are all anxious too! They need the stability/reliability too.
I’ll be happier when it gets easier to spot and respond to things without the onslaught of accompanying emotions! It’s exhausting.
Worrying situation Veracity – which you are handling exceptionally well.
In pottery – when you are beginning, you cannot turn a pot on a wheel (like in the ghost film) – without physically supporting your arms solidly against your body – it just folds, no matter what trickery you employ or lengths you go to.
Veracity I don’t see your support within this company? Any at all!? And you may survive for a little while but IT IS EXHAUSTING and eventually your energy will be worn down and you won’t grow and thrive as you deserve.
Watch the flattery/ego stroking of you – you are vulnerable to it because you (as I) have been previously wounded AND it is a test of loyalty – to you and of you, by them and has a myriad of consequences – and is given at the expense of someone else so far!!!
Write a private list where you have genuine support within this company and where you have not experienced it so far – ie where you can mess up and be accepted and helped to achieve success, rather than taken advantage of or something else behind your back? Go through all of them from the bottom, up and judge them on real situations you have experienced with them – where were they to help you or other people? Be prepared to be surprised.
Be careful about the demonizing of your boss either in your own head or publicly (which I doubt you would ever do on purpose) – you are probably correct – but ask who has supported him in this situation up to now??? Why hasn’t he been moved on or trained effectively? Who is responsible for not knowing how rubbish he is at the moment and setting boundaries with him? – even though you have worked it out within five minutes and they have had much, much longer??? Does it seem fishy?
There is a saying that basically says that if someone fails at work – it is their line managers fault – but, also, the workers/colleagues have supported him – through their fear – in this situation to continue to fail. The same ones coming to you to attempt to give you an ego stroke by any chance? and it seems you are being set up to take over his position possibly? – which you may feel you suddenly want but never thought of before coming in the door?!!!!
and isn’t actually your identified need?!!!
— however what happens when you have something YOU can’t do?!!!!!
where is YOUR support coming from then?!!!!!
or are you perfect and self sufficient like an island?!!!!
What was that? Think what is happening to your boss can’t/won’t happen to you?
Have you felt this before???
This may not be a one person problem – but a whole company frightened to do what they really need to, to fix their own problems – not good – and you are in the middle of it – sadly – more aware now, but still in it all the same. You cannot sort them all out – you are correct to sort yourself out only.
At the end of the day you are not in this company, to fix the entire company, so you are doing really well to resist the pressure being given, to go in your bosses shoes – (THIS WILL INCREASE AND YOU WILL BE GIVEN BIGGER INCENTIVES TO COMPLY) are you being paid your bosses wage? or the company boss wage? or for playing Miss Marple or Miss Nightingale on your own?
Work out what you really want and if it isn’t forthcoming here – go elsewhere.
Is this really acting on your first instinct you had? upon discovering this situation? and what is the next step to achieve your first instinct????
Well done for keeping your head! Best wishes for the next steps.
Oona, I agree. The support is limited. He does provide it sometimes. I noticed he was less patient and shorter with me the day after his failed attempt to meet his deadline. I’m not taking it personally and have come up with a plan to deal with it if he persists with that approach.
I get what you are saying about the flattery. I am very vulnerable to it, and when I’m aware (paying attention), very leery of it. Same with the being needed…my catnip. I see it as a possible manipulation/attempt to control.
I don’t know if I understand what you mean by the flattery being a test of loyalty. So if I buy into the flattery and do what they want – they see if it works and that means I’m loyal? If I don’t, I’m not loyal to them? Or to see if I’ll say something bad about him? I made a point of saying that I’m sure he’ll take care of what she needed.
One director went out of her way to thank me at the staff meeting for helping set up an event. Others helped too, but she only said thank you directly to me in the meeting. I’m still trying to work out whether it was sincere or an angle.
Another woman who initially blatantly ignored me is now all of the sudden working very hard to win me over. She took it a step further the other day and came to my office and thanked me for something I did and whispered, in a conspiratorial way, that she didn’t like the way “they” do it. My first thought was “oh shit. Be careful how you respond. Don’t give her any ammunition.” I asked her if she let them know that she didn’t like it. She looked surprised. I’ve gotta come up with a response to this kind of stuff. Like –Oh, or thanks for letting me know, or I see.
I’ve been working on that list! What I’m having a hard time working out is the behind the back stuff. I sense there’s a lot of that going on there.
Yes, it does seem fishy. I suspect they were not aware because the person I’m filling in for has been doing the work for him. I’ve seen people like this before at the top. They hide their inadequacy well because their employees do all the work and they take the credit. As far as the training goes. That’s on him – squarely. He has been there over a year and still hasn’t bothered to learn the systems/programs fluently. He puts the work load/responsibility on the person in my position and it has worked well for him so far. She’s a lot like me. He was trained one on one on the program he needed to complete the task that he didn’t know how to do. He chose not to take the extra session and had her do the work alone. He also didn’t put in the time to pre load the information.
The idea of being set up to fail and being an island resonates with me. It is familiar. Not supposed to need/expect support/help is painfully familiar. So many triggers in this place.
I’m working at seeing him as my inconsistent boss – he sometimes supports me and sometimes doesn’t and it’s not personal and doesn’t make him a villain or a hero.
I’m viewing this job as an opportunity to practice setting and maintaining boundaries. Based on what I’ve seen/experienced so far, this isn’t a company I would want to work for long term.
Thank you very much for your insights, wisdom, and support!! It’s so helpful to have your perspective. As you know, it can be much harder to see it when you’re in it and I still have a lot to learn.
Veracity – I feel we have come through something similar and you have definitely been one of the people who have genuinely helped me along the way, so it is a privilege to be of any help or be able to open about what I feel or may also see from my experiences and that possibly be of use? for you or others as you have been for me.
It is definitely hard to see it when you are in it – I believe this is partly, in my case, due to a residual type of trauma response to being in any similar position that I have been in before – where serious things have happened or nearly happened, as a result – so I am now deeply understanding of just what can happen/ what loss can occur here as a result – that it becomes somehow difficult to see the guiding light through the tunnel – so focused on past results.
A non committal response, I learned, that says you have heard what someone is saying – validates but does not commit you either way to THEIR agenda is
‘Really?’
and repeat, if they repeat their stance again – silence after this.
It may feel awkward and is really hard to keep yourself quiet around this one word and not to embellish or offer up YOUR take on the situation/give them what they want/people please – but when swimming with sharks? – your instinct is right – best not to give them any blood and having this one word stand by has really helped me on occasion when I couldn’t think straight.
– I also use ‘what can you do?’ & repeat – stress on the CAN, while being genuinely curious and again silence/ or distraction away from it…..allowing THEM to think and find their own solutions – this IS of course when I can remember to listen to my instinct that I don’t fully trust myself or them in the beginning… still a work in progress…. but good as back up maybe.
When you asked the lady if she had let them know? as a solution to HER problem she was laying at your door and she looked surprised as a response
1)You were being nice – to someone you don’t have any knowledge of her actual trust level
2)By genuinely trying to resolve her problem for her — this IS nightingale rescuing.
This is fine with people you already trust – I have found I CAN do this with people/ it is perfectly acceptable when the gut feels ok – once they/ I have proved we can trust each other – which I am having to admit is after I have directly asked for their help quite a few times and they have freely given it back — but my old blanket response of ALWAYS trying to be nice and helpful without acknowledging my real need to build trust slowly over time – isn’t actually as helpful as I really thought it was!! shockingly – for me or them –
ie real help is helping people to help themselves which you were partly doing by asking a question but really why can’t the person you spoke to think for herself? NOT doing it for them – the teaching them how to fish, rather than just giving them the actual fish – way of looking at things.
The sincere vs angle thing is ESSENTIAL TO WORK OUT asap!!!! (closer to your genuine gut instinct before we smooth over it) and really going to come down to whether your gut feeling of said experience matches words being linked to it – when it doesn’t quite match or is AMBIGUOUS = protection amber/red flags time.
I know it is hard when your instincts are coming at you like ever increasing onion layers – but this IS part of it – a safe place or person leaves NO ambiguity – it may not be as dangerous as the imagination may fear but it will never purely safe because even if the perception of danger is just in your own head this will affect and inform how you see and react and respond – no matter how much you try to ignore it.
Find your one example of good relationship, if you have one – a working relationship somewhere in your life you KNOW you can trust and if in doubt – keep referring back to it – ie would this person behave in this manner if in this situation?
Yes I didn’t explain the flattery test thing very well sorry its difficult sometimes – I was trying to say another way of looking at flattery is as charm or buttering up – in order to make you feel comfortable to gain knowledge of YOU UN-AWARE-S- ie your alliances/loyalities – so THEY know how to play their hand = gives them power/control. When others use this buttering up on me – without genuine history –
I am finding if I’m not in a fully trustworthy environment – it is much better for me to stay non committal ie neither for or against your boss – neither good or bad – which IS really hard especially when pushed or in a work crisies or dealing with anxious colleagues.
Your instincts are amazing Veracity and you are
oops pressed the button before fully finished but like the happy accident of the last sentence – Veracity = you are
to complete the loyalty paragraph above it…when others use the buttering up on me – without genuine history – I feel now it is usually about them working out my loyalties – in order to decide theirs/how to bond or not bond with me/bond with others using said information and I now use this to be AWARE about them and their potential lack of loyalty to me.
Last paragraph – it seems you have your head on your shoulders about Mr boss and worker slave under him (who is conveniently missing temporarily! creating the space for you to fill) – so this definitely is not long term and I sigh relief at this prospect – believe me the bosses still KNOW – you have picked it up with your experiences, so why do you think they wouldn’t have their own? They will have been given their own amber and red flags – they either see or chose to ignore/denial.
I look forward to you being in an environment where you are supported within it for who you are – you genuinely deserve it. Please keep asking yourself – what it is you truly want? and taking the real next steps directly to it.
I didn’t read you have completed your list yet? Ambiguity means no trust/no real support.
I didn’t read you have identified any support within the company yet? – it doesn’t necessarily have to be a boss…. – the person who you can be yourself with – faults and all and begin to trust them and yourself for real? If its no one – it shows the emergency situation you are in.
Aww thanks, Oona. I’m so glad it’s mutual.
I agree, the residual trauma definitely makes the reactions worse. It takes every ounce of self control to stay present and not anticipate a repeat of the trauma.
I’ll try the really? and let ya know how it works for me!
Yeah, reforming Queen of the Nightingales here. That was actually an improvement for me! 🙂
I’m going with angle. She strikes me as a bit of a quiet queen bee. Kinda stealth, but knows how to get her way. I could be wrong, of course, but I prefer to err on the side of caution.
I honestly don’t have a good example to refer to. I cried when I realized that.
I’ve been asking for more help lately, so I’m getting a better sense of who’s willing. I’m also noticing who only speaks to me when they want something!
I’ll pay closer attention to the loyalty test/flattery from now on. There’s an issue between my boss and one of the other directors, so it will be helpful to stay out of it – stay neutral.
I noticed the V.P. has been around more after the deadline fiasco, so I think they are paying closer attention. I doubt they realize just how clueless he keeps himself about a lot of stuff. Not my problem.
Thank you! Everyday I get better and spotting things and taking care of myself! I’m currently looking for a new job and trust it will be a healthy, supportive environment.
Thanks again, big virtual hug!
@all the reclaimers; may I just say how much I like that we keep it so real here? I really like — the realness, the work that people are putting into living a more authentic life, a non b.s. life, and I hope a non-tepid life. No more tepid.
I was thinking the other day that I’ve worked really hard to get here. Really hard. I deserve someone that understands that and is doing the same. If they aren’t (whether they are romantic or platonic interest), then its a waste of my time. It just is. I didn’t do all this work, so much work, so much effort, so much learning, so much money on therapy, so much invested in others, to just take up with some fool. No. People need to speak a truth, doesnt have to be your exact truth, but working toward a truth otherwise forget it. Dont waste all your experience with someone that can’t appreciate it. This is really so basic, but our desperation, lack of trust in ourselves, tendency to second-guess, over think, tendency to please etc., makes for bad choices.
A relationship is a transaction, an exchange. Thats how we are responsible. We dont make people be crappy, we dont visit catastrophe on our heads willingly. BUT we enable, we waffle, we look the other way, we second-guess, we are shady, we play games, and of course we deceive ourselves. I think whats important is just awareness – who are you dealing with? Do they have your best interests at heart? Do they treat you well? Are you happy with them? Are you happy with anyone?
If you aren’t happy with anyone clearly that is about you not being able to let go etc. So no one will fix that but you.
But it takes two. So the person might be an AC but by being with them and entertaining their b.s. you are enabling, you are going against your truth, and you are responsible for that. That is on you. And only you can fix that by changing yourself. And sometimes changing yourself makes others change because you are no longer enabling – so for non-AC but problematic people, sometimes just changing yourself is enough, they will either shape up, or walk away.
Very well state, Suki! “Dont waste all your experience with someone that can’t appreciate it. This is really so basic, but our desperation, lack of trust in ourselves, tendency to second-guess, over think, tendency to please etc., makes for bad choices.” I think this is key – spot on!
Yes Suki! You are absolutely right, every single word.
Your post is a great one, and it’s something I have to definitely save.
I will come back to this because you reminded me about the importance of awareness, and the responsibility that I have to take for going against my own truth. The key is to better yourself, and your absolutely right. Also knowing my worth, and not wasting my experience with someone that can’t appreciate it. (A lesson I’ve recently learned)
Thank You for the realness, the wisdom, and the reminder to not deceive myself.
Preach, girl! @Suki.
Very true.
And after 4 years I finally not just talk the talk but I finally feel it in my bones that I was not authentic with myself and by performing for people and for exEUM especially I enabled this relationshit to continue. Largely it was my compliance and dishonesty with myself that allowed for it to go as it did. From the moment he told me he had a gf – the moment when I thought – well they’ve been dating just a few months – and from the moment I started covering up for him, lying to other people about where I was and who I were with, whom I was dating to stopping myself every time I wanted to touch him in the public – I was making myself tiny and this is what confirmed for him I was the perfect candidate for the affair.
Were I honest with myself, were I open with other people (at least my friends) that we were together on this or that night, were I to say out loud that he is touching my knee under the table with our colleagues sitting at the same table – he’d run away. He’d be frigging scared. But I lied to myself, I lied for him and for me. And this one is on me. No more censorship, no more hiding.
Authenticity is what I am learning these months. And it entails checking in with myself very often (more often than I am comfortable with): what do I feel with this person now? how does this situation make me feel? What can I do for myself now to make it better? Am i, by doing this particular thing or staying with this or that person, getting closer to my relationship and career goals?
Suki,
what a great post. I like the inspiration!
I would like to second everything you said and I am seeing the changes in my life after opening my eyes what is truly there with each person that I am involved in (romantic/work/friends/family) and some major house-cleaning and please keep in mind this is an ongoing process but my life is SO much better and feels so much better and also I feel so much better with myself. Being authentic and not people-pleasing feels exceptionally good as the opposite is exhausting…and confusing.
I have lived in several countries and know firsthand how difficult it is to create a good network of friends and finding mutually fulfilling relationships in work and in private life.
I have done online dating in blocks but it did not work for me, but I would consider it again, I want to believe that they might be men on there seeking what I am seeking. I know they are very few of those but that would be enough for me to give it another shot. What I want to say is, don’t close yourself off to any opportunity you might have meeting someone eligible. You just never know. BUT be wary of the internet and all the problems that might accompany the anonymity of it. I always saw it as a tool, never “believed” what I was reading on profiles, just took it as information that needed verification.
I am also experiencing the “normalcy” of a man that does what he says and means what he says and while I think this should be the norm, I know that the absence of it makes me flush the person immediately. And I flushed plenty in the last years thanks to meeting EU’s/AC’s. But if they behave with respect, trust and care towards you, you will feel the benefit of not needing to decipher mixed messages, unavailability, disappearing or super lazy communication.
It will be a different experience because the person has the same values as you have and that is why you need to
a) check our own values and sorting out whether you are living according to them and
b) be on the look-out for good character traits as those usually translate into their behavior. So take the time and get to know people in general (that is what I did) and I got so much better in recognizing EU/AC behavior and of course studying BR like a maniac 🙂
Looking for advice. I’ve been emailing/ texting for a couple weeks with this guy. I DID give my cell # to him, but now I’m feeling like what he’s writing is “needy/ amber alert” or am I being too sensitive/ over-analyzing? I am sharing these questionable excerpts:
4 days ago:
Him: I have a question. I don’t want to pressure you. We have been corresponding for some time now and I like it, and hope you do as well. Are you ready and interested in dating and a possible relationship?
Me: Good direct question, and yes that is why I’m on this lovely site. Until we actually meet in real life I think it’s impossible to know.
Him: Ok. Well are you happy and excited that we have a potential something?
Me: I try not to have too many expectations too early, but hopefully it’s good!
2 days ago
Him: I’m looking forward to meeting you. I hope you still feel the same way. Please let me know. It’s ok, I really would like this to be 100% mutual. If you don’t want too please let me know. Not sure why I’m saying this but suppose it couldn’t hurt. Thanks.
Me: I agree mutual has to exist otherwise things don’t work. I’m not a disappearing douche like many people I’ve encountered thru the site.
Today:
Him: Are you still looking forward to meeting and possibly having a relationship in the future?
I don’t know what to say as it’s starting to feel … Idk … Weird?
@SaySomething, yikes, did this guy actually ask you out or is this just some kind of looooong preamble to asking you out? Did he ever say like “How about Friday 8 pm at blahblah?”
Personally he’s creeping me out. I mean if he’s asking this many questions before you even meet what’s it going to be like after date 1? But only you know the full extent of his correspondence and how it’s going but, yeah, I’m personally feeling a weird vibe from all of that “checking in.” Those guys can turn on a dime. If you don’t want to see him again, he could be all “But you SAID you wanted a relationship with meeee!!!”
I second the yikes!! He sounds like he’s very concerned about being rejected and you haven’t even met yet. Not a good sign. Huge red flag. If you do date him you will never be able to keep up with the reassurance he needs.
Go with your gut. You are rightly feeling “weird”.
Say Something, yes. Needy. Desperate. Future fake and fast forwarding. He has not even met you. I would not waste any time on him anymore.
p.s. How do you have patience to sort through all these men online? I have been reading yours and others’ stories here about online dating, and it is daunting and so frustrating, to put it mildly. I had my experience in the past with online dating and more than once. I will never do it again. In fact, in the last few months I have been reaching the acceptance that living the rest of my life single is fine with me. I understand people want to meet other people, but online is just . . . I don’t know how you manage to keep up the hope to look online. It seems to be a bottomless pit of very non-relationship material men.
Sofia/Diane,
We haven’t met due to logistics, and we’ve been in touch 2.5 weeks. He DID want to get together Friday, but I was out of town. He’s an hour away and travels for work. So even though we’ve discussed mtg in the past week, it was not possible. And I’m not sure if that’s why this weird dynamic has evolved, or if he’s just weird. Another comment he made was “wanting to resolve this single thing”.
Yes Sofia, I’ve thought “fast forward” but then wonder if it’s ME being hesitant and vigilant. I think I’m right though. I still haven’t responded to him from 24 hrs ago. He’d invited me (for a first date???) to his family fathers day get together. I declined, and said it would be awkward.
And Diane, it DOES feel like some kind of “checking in”.
There has been normal exchange, but I pulled out the concerning parts. Thank you both for your responses. I’m still not sure if I should actually TELL him I’m creeped out or not.
Say Something, don’t tell him that you are creeped out. I suspect that a person like he will freak out and knowing your phone number he might bombard you with texts and calls, guilt tripping you or who knows what. In his mind he is already your husband. He doesn’t sound stable. First date – family get together!? RUN. RUN. RUN.
You can just block him and not engage anymore. He sounds like danger to me the more you describe your interaction.
Sofia and Say Something,
First, Sofia thanks for your earlier post about trusting your gut. I had a nice looking gentleman ask me out. He walked up and introduced himself to me. He gave me compliments and we talked briefly. Then he ask me for my number. I said I would be more comfortable if he gave me his number. He gave me his business card. Like me he owns his own business. So, I thought we have something in common.
I took his number so that I could decide if I wanted to contact him. I decided not to call him. I wondered if he approaches women like this on a regular basis. I have been hurt and I want to proceed with caution. I am trusting my gut because I don’t want another player. I am just starting to consider dating. I am going to be selective about who I date. The WRONG person can flip my life UPSIDE DOWN.
Say Something I hope you are healing. I am. This man has never laid eyes on you and is already talking about a relationship. RUN. This sounds crazy. It takes time to decide something like this. I agree with Sofia’s comments a future faker and you have seen this before. This may be a man with a harem. Anyone will do. He doesn’t need to meet you,but already wants a relationship. Since you gave him your number why is he still emailing (or is he texting) asking about a relationship? If you are that interested a meeting in person would be arranged ASAP. Don’t allow loneliness make you accept a date.
You especially need to guard your heart. Sofia I agree with you about online dating. I can not do online dating. I looked at the prospects online and was not happy with what I saw. Like Say Something said in another post most men look like they have been living in a basement with no daylight or a mirror (lol).
I am confident I can meet someone without a dating site. I am socializing and men are talking to me on a regular basis. I am taking things slow. When it doesn’t feel right I am trusting my gut and they will not be allowed into my circle.
The past two nights I have had bad dreams about my ex and I have woken up so upset. Other then this I no longer ruminate about him. A miracle. I don’t miss him at all. But these dreams that I cant control have me upset today. It will pass. Time has helped me heal. I was with him for years. It takes time as they say, but I am happy and amazed about where I am NOW.
Sofia your comment about being ok with being alone is kind of tough to take in. I would love a special someone in my life to share things with. I cant make it happen and BOY it would be an adjustment to live out my life all alone. I can only HOPE this is not my fate.
HUGS,
MJ
@MJ, the dreams are the worst. I still have them four years after break-up, but I’ve noticed that they tend to happen when I’ve either gleaned some new piece of info about him (such as if I slip and check his FB page) or if something triggers my ruminating about him (movies can do it — movies that involve people overcoming all kinds of obstacles to be together, etc), or sometimes just if I’m lonely. I’ve come to realize the dreams aren’t really about HIM but about my desire to feel wanted and loved again, which hasn’t happened since I broke up with him. My brain keeps circling back to the last time I had that connection. I’m much better at shaking the dreams off than I used to be — I used to wake up from a dream with the STRONG desire to contact him and sometimes would — now I give it enough time that the feeling from the dream can drain away.
Hi Diane,
Thanks for sharing your experience. I woke up crying one night after a dream. I hate this. I was struggling today trying to figure out why this happened because I have been doing so well. This is why I will be so careful about who I date next time.
Something in the news made me think of him before I went to bed. A story came on where someone did something evil with no explanation. I think that story was a trigger just before bed. So, Friday and Saturday night bad dreams. You are right they are the worst.
Like you, I long for having a connection like I had with him. I just want someone honest. Diane I use to have someone to go places with and talk on the phone with there is a void. I am trying to enjoy the Summer alone.
Thanks so much for helping me understand these dreams.
MJ
Mary Jane, I am happy to see you are healing and moving on in your process. The guy giving his business card so that you can have his phone number is a bit pompous, I would say. It’s not that difficult to write it down on a piece of paper. Seems like setting up a business transaction, expanding network, asking for an interview, or wanting to do business together. Maybe some people who have their own business are so used to it, they don’t think twice and just give out their contact information like that. I am not sure what to think of him, but yes, listen to your gut. You are the one who talked to him and could listen to your heart at that moment.
Yes, believe me, I too sometimes think how wonderful it would be to have a partner to share our lives together. To share our values and live towards common goals together supporting, nourishing each other and bringing out the best in each other. Growing together and growing old together too. Of course I would like that too. What I am rather saying is that I am preparing and learning to live like that might never happen. That I find someone. I might find one and am not against it. All the opposite. I am just trying to build a balanced and harmonious life by myself, being single, with no void to fill and to be ready to continue living alone because it might be my fate. We are human and of course we need to relate and want a partner. I completely understand you:)
Hi Sofia,
In the area I live many people give out business cards. So, that wasn’t unusual. My gut feeling said don’t deal with him. I am alone but not desperate. it would be great to have someone to go see movies with or have dinner. For now I am good with doing it alone.
It is peaceful some days being alone. Today I just took care of me. That is my focus most days. I love the information you have shared today about looking out for yourself. This is why I love BR. A group of great people sharing information that is so helpful. this helps me heal.
Thank you for sharing such helpful information today.
MJ
MJ/ Sofia,
First, it’s nice to “see” both of you back here.
I’m wondering if I’m trying to PROVE that I can find a guy online. To counter BGE. I met him online, and felt a connection like never before. And I STILL miss him, and think of him daily. I just don’t talk about it so much. And maybe, because I’m sure he found my replacement(s?) I’m guessing also online, I want to also. Maybe I’ve thought doing so might take away some of the pain. I don’t know. But, it’s not working. Maybe I’ve gone on a “date” out of loneliness and hopefulness, but I really need “the real deal” to go beyond that, and I’ve never felt anything for any of these dates. Well, maybe one or two, MAYBE, but they disappeared. So I AM deactivating the account in the next few weeks.
Being in my 40s has really made it difficult to meet guys IRL. I have tried, I try. Same online, but I actually have guys who are at least ‘interested’ which is one more step than real life. But I can look through 500 guys and maybe 2 or 3 will look possible. That’s pathetic.
And I DON’T want to go through the rest of my life single. I’ve been doing it (except for BGE) for years. It’s not what I want. I don’t know what I can possibly do differently to have the outcome I’m wanting.
Thinking about how I gave BGE the best of me, knowing he “got” everything I had to give, and for whatever reason, suddenly it was no longer good enough FOR HIM, is the pain I continue to live with. In return, I got the 419 fantasy loaf, wrapped up pretty and served with a smile.
I guess the good thing is that I’m not making any horrible decisions of letting the wrong guys in my life. I feel good about THAT.
Hi Say Something,
It agree with Sofia it is so strange to have someone who has not met you ask you to come to a family event. I had someone do that. I left him alone. I just never replied to him again. Don’t tell anyone who has your number that you are creeped out. As women we have to be careful.
Protect yourself. Leave him alone and he will go away. This guy is moving way to fast. Back away.
MJ
Say Something,
I thought about what you said about why you are online. I think you know yourself why and you are explaining it. I think also it’s because you want to win. To prove that you have not lost. Even if it is subconsciously, but you are trying to be the winner. My initial thoughts.
I too, in the 9 years after my divorce did not meet anyone decent in real life except for couple EUs and couple married ACs (can’t believe I willingly had short-term affairs with them!!!). Then, I went online I found the same type of EUs. I think I met this kind of people because I attracted that type because I was like that myself. But not only I attracted I allowed them to stay. It was such a sick dynamic looking back at it. So much of it was of all my own making. Most of it I would say because somewhere inside I always felt that all of it was wrong but kept on being involved with them because the anxiety and unhappiness, tension and drama felt like home. But then I ask myself, why I was never even approached by a good guy? Forget about online, but real life? Now looking back at all that dating experience I think it is really hard to meet a good person. It is really fate after all I think. You can go to so many places, do only so much to be social and meet people. And of course first of all you have to be ready for a respectful, loving relationship. But even given all that, it is still not guaranteed you meet someone. In fact, nothing is guaranteed and nothing is owed to us. No matter how wonderful and worthy we are, and we are. That’s why I told Mary Jane, that as much as I would like to meet someone, I meanwhile build a content life on my own and enjoy every moment of it because I am not waiting for someone to enter my life to enjoy it together. Of course I would like to. No denying it. But I am not trying anymore to meet someone. This time I live it up to my fate. While I go on living my life happier than ever before in my life. Say Something, maybe you need to discontinue the online dating for now and take a break from men and relationships? A year perhaps? Set a goal/goals for yourself and do that. Don’t think about meeting someone and being single. Year is a lot and will go fast at the same time. I think you need a break from thinking about a relationship and being in one. I know you have been single for a while already. And before you had met the ex. I have been single for 1,5 years now and I can’t believe I feel fine without someone. I used to be terrified if I was single for 6 months. Take a break and rest your heart. Don’t think long term about whether you will be single or not. Just take a vacation for your mind and soul. Forget about relationships for now.
The happiest I’ve been in a long time was the two years just prior to recent my online dating debacle when I didn’t date or even try to date. It just wasn’t putting any mind space into ‘meeting someone’ felt pretty damn good to just wake up and live everyday without and pressure, objective, or adgenda other than just being happy with myself. My other life goals actually came more into focus once the muddy waters of romantic involvements had receded. I’m trying to get back on track again and make meeting someone something that may happen, or may not, not something I push. My peace of mind is much too precious.
Oops, so many typos. I just woke up. Sorry folks if that is hard to read smoothly. More coffee please….
Hi Sofia,
I guess I have multiple reasons. Primarily, I know it is a possible avenue to meet someone, which is my ultimate goal. But why I maintain an online profile, when I’m not having success is another layer.
Digging deeper into those layers…
You wrote “I think also it’s because you want to win.”
Oh boy, yes I have a competitive spirit, so I think there’s some truth to that. So I’ve been reflecting and here’s what I’m thinking. Using online to find that “one good guy” could ADDITIONALLY mean:
There IS somebody better than BGE for me
I AM worthy of being in a relationship
All my hard work is NOT WASTED
I CAN make a good decision and find the right partner
Yes, I have been alone for over a year now. And post-divorce, Pre-BGE, I was single for years. I did NOT date AT ALL for 1.5 yrs during my divorce process. I waited. And then after a year of trying I stopped for at least TWO YEARS. I dabbled in a couple “wrong for me” interests that never turned into a relationship. I took 4-5 months off and just recently began trying again. I’m going offline in July.
I have always thought that I’m very careful at each level. BGE is THE ONLY guy to ever stay with me in my bedroom at my house in almost 6 years. I really DON’T dive into relationships, which is partially also why it still hurts.
Anyhow, I guess I’m just dragging up all my hurt feelings. Selkie wrote that she was happiest alone. I was happiest during the BGE relationship. Maybe because I didn’t have any wishy-washy stuff. No fights, no canceling, no jealousy, no meanness, no IDK about my feelings, no “bad stuff” that gets pointed out here. Maybe he kept that all to himself until the giant cluster of an abrupt ending that truly came without any warning. After hours earlier driving by the restaurant on the water and telling me he wants to take me there. While we’re laughing and grilling dinner. While I’m spending the weekend at his place. While he says he’s NOT ditching me. While he continued having sex with me. While I was in such shock, disbelief, and denial. While I truly couldn’t comprehend what was happening. Why would he even invite me to begin with?
I’ll answer my own question. I was with a smiling, *NICE* future faker. Even now that I realize that (I guess that must be true), I STILL thought he at least LIKED me. He never acted any other way. Until he never wanted to see me again, for his own secret reason.
So yes, that pain is still very real and maybe on a secondary level I’m trying to “right the wrong” and hope it alleviates some of that pain. The rejection. That’s probably external validation, right? I know external validation won’t make it all better and that I need to be at peace with myself. I work on these thoughts and feelings daily. I admire your outlook.
Say Something,
I read your post and had an instant revelation! I know why I have accepted I will be fine either way, out or in a relationship. Because for the first time in my 37 years of life (I am 37) I don’t need anyone’s validation. Friendship or romantic. My entire life – the only way I would feel temporarily happy is when someone validated me or/and when I was in one of those EU relationship. Of course I was not happy, but I was given validation crumbs once in a while and that made me “happy.”
I also don’t care to look like I was a good guy and he, the ex, was the bad one. He surely messed up, but so did I. Each in our own way. And I don’t want to prove myself that I can find someone good and respectful and loving. Of course I deserve one, but if I don’t find one it doesn’t mean I am not worthy of a good relationship. It is just that if for whatever reason I am meant to be single, I accept it. For now, for a year, for 5 or 10 or 50. I don’t know. If in the past I used to be depressed and get anxious and agitated, “Why I am still single and it has been 6 months,” now I see my life as complete as it is.
When you were single for an extended period of time, how did you feel? Lonely, depressed? Calm and content? Was the reason to seek a relationship back then different from the reason now?
Another thing is that you still think positively of all the memories. It’s quite possible you might have overlooked some negative and shady stuff because you were in love and infatuated with him. You didn’t have enough time to see all the routine and negative side of him, so unfortunately only the good times came up. Once you start seeing him as just a man, not as BGE, you will start accepting that he messed up some way, somewhere, but didn’t walk sooner. Whether you were a passing time candidate for him or he was indecisive or just plain evil and a user, we don’t know and will never know. One of the keys for my acceptance (and I am still working on it) is that I accept and see the ex for a human just like me who did and say stupid, embarrassing, evil, obnoxious stuff. Who was perhaps more emotionally immature and emotionally unavailable than me, and selfish. I did my own share in my own way. Although I am not excusing his behavior but seeing him that way and understanding that we all make mistakes has helped me to gradually accept what happened. At a certain point (gradually too) he started coming off the pedestal and I just started perceiving him raw, so to speak, for who he was and at the same time, accepting my own responsibility for what I did. I was not an angel and did quite some EU stuff myself, now that I know all on the subject and can evaluate my previous behaviors with him and others. I could be his sister in fact, the way I acted many times… No wonder we were attracted to each other.
So somehow, you will come to the point where he will be just an ex, one of those. He will eventually. I have a feeling you will come to some epiphany realization about why you are hanging on to him and can’t let it go. Everyone has her/his own healing process. It’s unique. But you will get there.
I think the best course for your healing for now and a year+ on would be to stop online dating and concentrate on something, some project, goal with timelines and put your energy fully into it. Just think short-term strategies, projects, ideas, and tackle one at a time. The distraction and life goals (career, hobby, study, whatever it is) for us, you and me, after a year + are the best tools for moving on. Yes we can still experience pain and it comes rolling on and off, but we are still moving forward.
The main thing though is the acceptance of the fact that IT IS OVER. That’s what finally did it to me – acceptance that it is over. After that there are no ruminations and replay scenarios. Pain resurfaces, but it’s pain from the past. It’s ok. We have present and the future. You will reach the acceptance. Hang in there! You will!
Sofia,
Yes, I am still working on ACCEPTANCE. Acceptance of this, what you wrote:
“Whether you were a passing time candidate for him or he was indecisive or just plain evil and a user, we don’t know and will never know.”
You’re right. I guess that’s my 419. I can’t know someone else’s secrets, even though they continue to impact me.
“It’s quite possible you might have overlooked some negative and shady stuff because you were in love and infatuated with him. You didn’t have enough time to see all the routine and negative side of him, so unfortunately only the good times came up.”
He was good at being the charmer, and that’s what I remember. He kept all his promises. Kept them to himself like they never existed at all.
Like freedme wrote to you:
“I did all my homework on spotting the bad ones out there but failed to realize that sometimes you cannot prove there is something just under the surface.”
I think being involved with ^THAT^ kind of person (BGE) all but destroyed me. Brought me here. Am I still fighting the acceptance of *Damn. He just 419’d me*? Because I WANTED it to be real. I THOUGHT it was real.
@freedme: http://esteemology.com/but-he-has-so-many-good-qualities/
This article, while not exactly reflective of my BGE relationship, points out the *he thinks completely differently than I do* realization, which I translate into covert manipulation.
I have felt differently over the past few years. Often lonely, sometimes content, and eventually realized that if what i wanted was a good relationship, i needed to get out there and put in some effort. I didn’t consider that there was an entire network of predators, EU users, players, narcissists, and sociopaths that I might encounter. I was never distraught, depressed, and traumatized until last year after being (and I DO believe this) devalued and discarded like a useless THING. I know I even said to him “I’m a person, not a thing,” pleading for the understanding I would and will never receive. I wanted him to SAY SOMETHING, say ANYTHING that made sense. He didn’t.
Still working on acceptance. Still working on it.
Because there was nothing to say for him. He enjoyed those months and then he decided to check out. Maybe there was no manipulation at all. There was attraction and falling in love on his part, but then it went away. And that’s it. The same happened in my case probably, but I don’t ruminate anymore. Because I will never know and I don’t care to know at this point. It’s impossible to know. It’s life, like the ex would say. Shit happens. I remember there were couple exes in my past that I felt so madly attracted to and in love (or so I thought), but the “feelings” (more like mad physical attraction) went away around 6 months or so once I got to know the person better and realized I don’t see the long-term potential. There is never an easy and nice way to break up. Disappearing is not an answer of course. But whatever the person who made a judgment mistake/fell out of his temporary feelings about long-term potential relationship say it will still sound cruel to the person being dumped. I am just saying in general. Again, each case is so individual. There is no way to understand what happened.
There are two other things that help me moving on and accepting. It is all a very slow process and with some steps back. Not linear, no way. One thing is that I do honestly admit to myself that I did similar (but not to the extent of stringing along, saying “I love you,” promising things, making plans, and acting like I am serious about the person) things to someone else. Meaning being hot the first few months and then I felt I just can’t continue because I don’t see the potential. So I guess my karma paid me back, if there is such thing.
Another thing that helps my acceptance is that I made mistakes during that relationship too like I said in my previous post.
And finally, one more thing that might help you: Accept that it will take time and your own timeline to get to the acceptance. Accept that you will have flashbacks and steps back and it might take you a long time to recover, but you will. So meanwhile accepting the pain and grieving will get you closer to the acceptance. If you keep fighting yourself for not accepting yet and moving on, it won’t help. You just have to cry out and ruminate to exhaustion. That is what happened to me until I had nothing left. Sometimes I feel so empty about him. I feel nothing. Sometimes I get so sad and sit there and sob so hard and I realize that it’s all the pain coming out. There are times I wish him well but don’t want to know about him. But one thing for sure is that I don’t ruminate about “what happened and why , could have should have would have” and I did that for a year at least.
You will get there. Embrace your pain. Read BR. Don’t push yourself to meet someone. That will happen too when the time is right. I don’t think you are ready to date yet. Especially that you are not into casual and will not lower your standards (and don’t!). You need a long-term heart and soul vacation break. You are exhausted. Hugs and sending you my virtual support. Don’t despair. You will be over that man one day. We all are and will be.
Sofia,
thanks for such a great post and insight. I wholeheartedly agree. As long as we are trying to prove to ourselves or other people (in my case family or to the last AC that lives in my neighborhood that I have moved on..)we are spinning in unhappy circles. I realized that only I can set the parameter of how I will be treated and therefore the parameter with any relationship (family/friends/work). It certainly helps to take a break from dating hamster wheel if you are on it and for me it meant that my emotional self calmed down (stress, anxiety, fears) and I realized that I can give to myself, all of what I need and was looking for in the wrong places, be it security, comfort, friendship and for my need to be social, I have friends! Please don’t misunderstand, I would love to be with someone in a mutually fulfilling relationship but I also made peace with that expectation of “arriving” somewhere (meaning Marriage again- I am divorced). Interestingly when I was really okay with my life that I have build so far and I immensely enjoy each and every day, I did meet someone and so far so good. It is unfolding…:)
Unfolding, I just had a light bulb moment while reading your post…I’ve known about giving myself what I’m trying to get from other people, love, care, compassion, acceptance. Security is what struck me. I knew this at one level, as a given, but reading your post reminded me that I need to bring that need to the forefront of my mind – to be consciously meeting my need for security.
Thanks!
Unfolding, yes! As I was reading Say Something’s posts I was looking deeply inside me trying to pinpoint what exactly made a shift in my healing and led to acceptance. And that’s what it was! Not trying to prove anything to anybody and letting go of the control grip thinking I still could influence the outcome of the story, even if in my mind.
Acceptance is serenity and peace when you look to yourself for your approval and validation. You don’t need any external signs and validation any longer. It is freeing. Building my own life and living it single and understanding that I might always be single, makes me finally fully breathe and experience everything wholly. I don’t put on hold anymore any of my feelings or experiences in life. It’s like I made a pact with myself that this is my life and I am rebuilding it anew and fill with it with love and self-respect. I don’t close the door to potential relationships, but I am the owner of my own house now. I am not a homeless person waiting someone to take me to their home, feed me and warm me up and take care of me. I am my own person and can take care of me. All these revelations and understanding are paramount to acceptance, moving on, and finding your new way of living. As long as we keep trying to right the wrongs of the past, win, understand someone’s behavior, we are stuck.
Another thing that helped me moving on is realizing that every person is very unique. We can never understand another person, not fully. So when they do something it’s not about us. It’s about them and their decisions. Understanding that you can’t control the person and you have to let it go is another key. I used to hold on to the pain of holding on to the control. I wouldn’t let go of the stuck letting go process. And gradually it just all went. Still going. Like ice on the river: spring comes and the huge blocks of ice sheets start moving and melting. The river is flowing with new water and new energy. The breakthrough will come, Say Something. I couldn’t reply to your most recent post. It’s good that you had a good cry. My tears eventually dried up. You can cry only so much. It will be less and less with time.
Unfolding, it is great you are taking it slowly. That’s the only way for all of us, the wounded soldiers from the battles of the past. We were defeated but now we are so much stronger, resilient, and bullet-proof.
I just canceled my online dating account. My profile is hidden and the account is deactivated. I’m not sure “what’s next” but I took this step. I was tempted to check HIS status, but I didn’t. No more stupid winks, likes, interests, emails, chats. I hate feeling like a thing. Like I need to market and constantly re-brand myself to attract someone. In a year and a half of trying, there was only ONE guy and anyone who’s read my posts knows how THAT worked out.
I.Just.Can’t.Take.It.Anymore.
Sofia, that is all so true! I loved your comparison of being a homeless person waiting to be picked up…I always felt like “waiting” at a bus stop where the bus only stops every decade for the one significant sign/person/event to happen and show me the way. I had no concept of how to validate myself even though I am very successful in my job. It did help me though, to translate the self esteem I gained through work into my other relationships. And that being ME is all I got and that my own support is so much more reliable than anybody else’s…People change their minds and hearts and that is ok, I guess I do too, although I see myself as a loyal person (but not like dummy-dog loyality)which means with eyes/ears and heart open to really experience. I also had to relearn the word “truth” as I thought I was very truthful, but in fact I only wanted to see the convenient truth and when something wasn’t up to par, it was denied/rationalized/ignored…which lead to so much legitimate heartbreak.
It is very empowering to finally own my life and meeting someone was only possible because he respects the life I have build so far and really for the first time, I feel there is no fire, there is no timeline! There is just an experience and literally every day I get to decide whether I want to continue with it or not and since it has been so pleasant and a true addition to my life, yes of course I want to continue. Luckily we feel the same way to the same extend which I perceive as the miracle BUT again it is early and I am grateful for the slow-ness, I am not fighting it, it is the opposite, as I need it too and it feels very loving, healthy and normal 🙂
Not sure if I am bullet-proof though :))…but I am sooo much more aware, it is like the fog has lifted and you see clearly.
@SaySomething, Congrats on getting off the wheel, it did not do anything for me either despite 25 first dates in a bit over a year. It can get too much, but I am an eternal optimist and you just never know where you find good people! Good Luck and just take a breather and do what you want to do and if you don’t know, then it is time to figure it out to become a stronger personality in a good way!!
Unfolding/ Sofia,
I’m reading again what you both wrote. I’m wondering if deleting my online profile is (for me) as necessary as being NC. And the no contact is actually for ME to not contact him, because he never attempted to be in touch ever again. Since I met him thru that site, maybe being NC with match.com is part of my remedy. Does that even make sense? Yes
@Unfolding, so many “one and done” dates. Even tho none worked out, that’s fine. It kind of sucks, but it’s done now. Your phrase “legitimate heartbreak” sunk in deep. One legitimate heartbreak.
@Sofia, thank you for your enduring patience in responding to me so many times.
And also @MJ, for sharing your story and heartbreak, and relating to mine. For your
ideas, and advice.
Everyone else (Selkie, Suki, Why, Veracity, V, Pauline, Oona, Noquay, Elle, Elgie R, Kirsten, sorry to anyone I left out), thank you all for your thoughts and advice thus far!
@asy something; either drama, neediness or a bot, or not an english speaker + has no idea about women or even friendships. So strange, formal, boring, no emotion at all (thats why i said ‘bot’ like someone is generating these responses from a computer).
Something about those sentences is so rote, like he copied them from somewhere, and mundane and boring. Ugh. Boring? Socially totally inept? Dont meet him. This is not normal behavior. This is not natural social engagement. Its like a robot.
Do not give a second thought. Finished.
Replying to my own comment!
@Say:
So, I have a question, perhaps its for everyone. Why are you looking for a guy / romantic partner? Why?
If you say its for x (x could be potential long term or marriage, hanging out, social engagement, movies, fun, shag whatever), are you getting x? And if so, are you enjoying it, is it authentic (love, care, respect, progression etc)?
These two questions should be all one needs. For example, if you’re looking for fun, then bot-man with the ‘would you like a relationship with your salad’ is not going to do it. It doesnt sound enjoyable either. Flush.
Shouldn’t these two questions be enough? The first one is what you want. If you want a stable guy, then dont go out with the married man. If you want casual, then dont be with someone that wants more etc etc etc. If you know what you want, you’re more likely to attract it or to recognize that you are not getting what you want. If you dont even articulate what you want, then how will you know if you have got it? If you are not in touch with your feelings, how will you know if you are happy or if its time to cut and run?
Suki, yes yes yes. So very true. To not give up what I am looking for a short term benefit (sex, occasional dinners in their company) is what I am working hard on and which is the only way to get what you need. Keep our eyes on what we need and don’t say “oh well, maybe that’ll do for now” because in my case it meant “maybe I don’t deserve what I want”.
Suki,
“If you know what you want, you’re more likely to attract it or to recognize that you are not getting what you want. If you dont even articulate what you want, then how will you know if you have got it? If you are not in touch with your feelings, how will you know if you are happy or if its time to cut and run?”
This is gold. Thanks for sharing your perspective.
Suki,
My friend asked me tonight, “What kind of guy are you looking for?” I thought of your question.
I want the real deal. The guy who likes me for ME, who wants to commit. I want quality. I want someone who will be on my side and BY my side. Someone I share values with, who can make me laugh and will laugh with me. Someone emotionally and financially stable. Someone I feel comfortable with that actually cares how I feel. Someone I can count on that will support and encourage me, and accept the same from me. Someone that lets me be myself and wants to be his own person, but we are both happiest when we are together. And someone without a secret agenda who isn’t going to just disappear. I’d say more but it’s been suggested that maybe I need to downgrade. I won’t.
Dont downgrade… a normal relationship has become such a unicorn that we dont remember what its like. I dont think its anything to do with how long it lasts but with how you treat each other. I mean its okay to have been with someone had some fun and then it ends. We’re not here because something ended – we’re here on BR because our relationship(s) was fundamentally an attempt by someone to make us accept shady behavior that they know is shady. And for reasons only we can explain, we go along or went along and we knew also that it was shady.
Especially in the start of a relationship, it should be easy. Everyone easily deciding on frequency of meeting, no shadiness, no passive aggression, no online chats for 6 months without real life meeting etc etc. If its not real even in the first 3-4 months, if its not fun, real authentic ‘I’m happy to be me’ fun, then forget it. Mature relationships are always closer, better, more comfortable but also over the long run problems come up (ill health, unemployment, depression, family issues) – if you can barely even figure out what to say on the phone today, imagine living with this person.
Dont downgrade – the long term stakes are too high.
Thanks Suki,
I won’t allow myself to downgrade. Never heard from bot-man after ignoring his final creepy text.
“We’re not here because something ended – we’re here on BR because our relationship(s) was fundamentally an attempt by someone to make us accept shady behavior that they know is shady.”
I want to clarify that I am here because my relationship ended, but NOT NORMALLY. And I can only GUESS that maybe his motivations, thoughts, intentions were shady. The abrupt cut-off, you were great, have a wonderful life, we’re never going to see each other ever again because “sometimes this is what happens in dating”. A little condescending, and removed from empathy, and still such pain for me. Never saw it coming.
So I am *here* climbing out of the wreckage of what I truly believed was a mutual relationship with a man I loved, cared for, trusted, respected, and believed in. Yet evidence points instead to 419/ fool’s gold/ just not that into me/ future faker/ GONE forever. It is really hard to ACCEPT that, but I know ACCEPTANCE is all on me. A year later and I’m still crying and not sleeping. Never before. Never again. I’m so sorry for posting that I continue to feel this way.
Say Something,
Don’t apologize for still being in pain and not accepting after a year. Life events don’t have calendars attached to them. I was still crying and grieving after a year. Now, 4,5 months later (after a year mark), there is a difference. There was some shift that happened about maybe 2-3 months ago. I can’t place exactly what it was but from then on I have been feeling that something has let go. Believe me, I still avoid the area where he lives and notice “his” car, the accent, the country he is from, and other things still remind me and depending on my mood, hurt me sometimes. But sometimes I am completely indifferent to anything that reminds me of him. The healing is so gentle and slow, but it works like magic. I know you went through a wreckage. I can’t imagine how one is supposed to feel after such a normal relationship, from what you describe. At least mine was infested with red flags and the betrayal, so it really was no wonder he broke up at the end. Doesn’t mean it hurt less, but it was not a surprise after all. In your case, it’s a mystery that cannot be resolved by anyone. Perhaps even by himself. You have a very strong personality and don’t want to give up. I remember you said you are a competitive person. You can’t accept that you lost. Although this might not be a loss at all but a gain actually, but in the dating scheme of things, to YOU it was a loss. That was VERY HARD for me to accept that I was dumped. No one ever dumped me. When I was 18, a guy cheated on me, but it was not even a relationship really anyway, but it still hurt. I am used to breaking up with people first. How come I was being dumped? The pride, the ego, the self-importance. The reality is that people get dumped all the time, every day. Out of 20+ year marriage and established families. Out of the most perfect 1-3 long-term relationships and not so perfect and after a hot and romantic 3-6 months short-term relationship. I too was not accustomed to being left behind. Abandonment stings bad. On the upside, because of this experience I for the first time have relived and reexperienced all the abandonment events from my past, which I had never done before. From my father, mother, one guy from my youth and couple EUs who didn’t even break up but disappeared triggering all the issues, which I didn’t work through or understood at the time. Thankfully to the last ex, I have cleaned out my “house,” so to speak and cried out and still do everything I have to from the very beginning. I look at the entire experience now as a true blessing because I get to live the rest of my life, be it 40 years more or 4, as a new, balanced, healthy individual. Still working on myself, but that “loss” is really a gain. I used to think I lost. Now I think I won (if I wanted to think in those terms, but I don’t). Perhaps, you don’t know it yet, but your loss of this man will lead you to such changes in your life of which you are not aware yet and can’t even think of. You don’t know what awaits you. You might have won a big time. It’s just you don’t know yet.
Thank you Sofia,
For both comments and your perspective. I would never jump in a relationship just to be in one, and perhaps that is PART of why I am single. I’m OK with that. The on-line thing isn’t working or making me feel good, so perhaps this weekend I will deactivate the account. Of course I see deactivating as a form of “giving up” but I just need to think differently about that.
I hate that I still miss him. Knowing he got the “best” me and it still wasn’t enough is painful. I told my friend that I think part of the reason I focused on thinking maybe I have some serious flaw/deficit was because I knew I didn’t “DO” anything wrong. I didn’t demand, accuse, criticize, whine, force, argue, complain, things like that. I put in positive quality, and thought and felt I was receiving the same positive, caring treatment in return. I guess it doesn’t make sense that less than three weeks earlier he was providing details about a vacation together, which he’d for months been casually mentioning. Then the details started coming into place, NEVER by ME prompting it, always of his own free will. And in the end he told me his vacations were spent staining his deck, like I made it all up, and that if he’d mentioned a vacation, he would have wanted to go when it was cold (not May like he actually told me). It’s not so much about “wow I didn’t get the vacation” but the fact that he downplayed, denied, and blatantly LIED to my face, and tried to “change” all the things HE kept ‘promising’ me like I made it all up. Hearing these messed up words was beyond hurtful. It was cruel. I understand that people’s feelings can change, but he ACTED all along like his feelings were growing and were stronger. I think THAT is manipulative. I guess I haven’t accepted that he could want out SO BAD but still play the part of good guy, caring partner while simultaneously preparing for his escape.
Hmm, I’ll invite her over for the weekend, speak of more future plans, act invested, have lots of sex, refer to her as my girlfriend, take her out, and then 2 days later just BAM- tell her she lives too far away and that it’s just a logical decision. Then I’ll deny that I’m breaking up when she seems confused, and we can still have sex. I’ll let her stay 2 more days. When she asks if she’ll ever see me again I’ll answer “well, I think I’ll be here next weekend”. I’ll deny that there’s anyone else. I’ll tell her things would be different if she lived closer, even though I drive that far to work each day. Then for the next few weeks I’ll continue to reassure her that I haven’t given up. I’ll tell her we need to talk in person. But when she actually REALLY needs me for a serious reason, I’ll bail for good and tell her BY TEXT that I’m dating someone else. I will never speak to her or see her ever again.
To his credit, he never told me that he loved me. Instead of those words ever being spoken, even though it “felt like” we were moving in that direction, I got the ultimate discard. Did I miss “the sign” that he should have said I love you by 5 months? This relationship felt authentic, comfortable, caring. It felt right. It wasn’t.
Looking back at how many times I’ve been in love… With my first high school bf, I loved him in the capacity that a teenage heart can love. I suppose I must’ve loved my exH, though now I’m so far removed from those feelings. And then there’s BGE. How many men have I actually TOLD “I love you”? ONE. My exH of 20 yrs. I had one other man whom I dated say it to me, but I didn’t say it back. I don’t fall in love easily.
Why didn’t I say it to BGE? I wanted to. I felt it. I wanted him to say it first; when he was ready. That moment never came.
What I thought was normal was messed up. What I thought was good was horrible. What I thought was caring was indifference. What I thought was sharing was data mining. What I thought was mutual was one-sided. What I thought was real was fake. Processing this ultimate 419 mindf@ck remains the most traumatizing, difficult experience I’ve ever encountered.
Apologies for the recollection, but I did have a good cry.
Ladies,
I never responded and haven’t heard from him in almost 48 hrs. Kind of relieved. Yes, his language DOES appear bot like, Suki! He has a science/tech background, so not sure if that’s maybe why. But I’m feeling uncomfortable. NOT what I’m looking for and I recognize that.
Wanted to share my favorite exchange with him. Couldn’t help myself…
Him: I am an intellectual. I don’t mean to sound pampas
Me: *pompous?
Anyhow, there were other signs to pay attention to that he wrote the first week. He never asked to CALL me btw.
Him: As far as living arrangements, that can easily be changed.
Him: Even if we weren’t involved, I’m not the type to hurt you or anyone. I hope you can sense what type of man I am.
Him: I am clearly interested, but don’t want to put pressure on you. Actually, while I was away you were the only non-relative I sent a message too. I think you are very pretty and nice. :).
Him: I can sound more eloquent for sure, but I don’t know how you feel about this. Perhaps if and when we meet and hit it off, I can be more romantic.
Anyhow, compiling these warning flags is mote than enough evidence. At first I thought maybe he was just “awkward” with communicating.
@Say: oh dear. This is not a good candidate. Who knows why, but he doesnt know normal social behavior or is running some sort of experiment to see whether women respond to a bot. Living arrangements to be changed??!! Ha. Why? And also, I can be romantic – like what, its something he could turn on IF you were all that? He’s really bad news, tbh he’s not real. He has no social skills so he’s either seriously socially challenged, is a bot, is really screwed up and experimenting with women. Do not reply to this guy. If you do, slowly you’ll start thinking this is normal conversation but its not, its freaky stuff.
That’s so CREEPY!!!!!
Say,
Sounds weird to me as well. My first thought was dating site scammer. Has he made any plans to actually meet? That would be my next step, arrange a coffee date and if there’s any hesitation or dicking around…..BYE
I refuse to have on line conversations for more than a week or so without arranging to meet. I only even give it that long because I know most are busy with kids and work. But seriously, there’s lots that will chat for months on line without any intention of meeting in real life.
Good luck, make a date and go from there xxxx
No Kirsten, no date happening! And I’m totally ok with that decision. See above.
Say,
Oops I missed the rest of that thread….
Strange he kept repeating the same questions to you even though you had clearly answered them first up.
I agree…FLUSH!!
Think I’m just going to collect some more cats ;-))
Dianne I agree and you can usually spot them from miles away. Most don’t even bother to hide the fact they’re married and after some “discrete dating”. Blerch, spend your energy taking your wife on a date instead of trolling the interweb for some extra marital XXXX douchebag.
This particular guy I’m sure was single, but he just seemed overly shy or unsure maybe. Funny story, I was telling a friend of mine who uses the same site about him and his endless emails and she said “His name’s not XXX is it?” I said yes and she told me she had gone on a date with him and while he was nice, he had no personality whatsoever. That seemed to fit his emails – nice but boring..
That said I have met lots of good guys over the net some of whom are friends to this day. My issue is meeting a nice guy who I feel a spark with, so far no luck but I’ll keep trying. It gets me out of the house at least and makes for some amusing stories to tell.
Poppy,
Years ago, in my first attempt at online dating, I met a guy on POF and went out with him twice. Turns out, he’d also contacted my friend AND sister through the site. (they didn’t date him) Well, nothing ever happened with said guy, and months later when I logged back in to disable/deactivate my account, I immediately got a msg from this guy as if we’d never met. It was like he had some google auto notification and responder set up or something. Freaking weird. I have NEVER used that site again.
Oona,
I wanted to thank you for all of the helpful lists you have posted. They have helped me be creative and brave about doing things alone. I have been traveling alone and enjoying my Summer. I have gone to horse shows and races. I m in a fencing class and studying a foreign language. Just did zip lining and I loved it. Took a salsa class with couples and the instructor was my partner. I’m staying busy. Some days I just sit at the beach and read. Then there are days that I throw paint like I’m Jackson Pollock. Quiet time is priceless.
I wish I had someone like you living next door. When I go to restaurants alone they always ask me is anyone joining you. Nope (lol) just me. I am excited about my next trip and I always make sure I am planning to be safe alone.
I have a dinner on Monday with a new friend. I will see if we click. I have had some potential new girlfriends stand me up. It is ok. It takes time to make real friends. When I call a couple times and never hear back from someone I just move on. I have one trip planned with an old friend. I m so glad we are reconnecting.
I love your attitude about doing things alone. Again, thanks for the helpful lists.
MJ
I am really pleased for you – you work hard to do well.
I notice I don’t actually feel alone when I am fully engaged doing something I really need to do – whether that’s sitting in my pyjama’s all day watching rom coms, chatting on the net or braving it and going out for lone meal – thing is you are rarely in reality alone doing these things anyway – there ARE people in the restaurant, people ARE helping you with the zip line, at the classes, in shows and in other countries, and people who have made the stories or act in the films… The reality is we are RARELY actually alone. The reality is, I often do feel ok with being alone – it is usually others who don’t feel ok that I am alone/ remind me I am alone, by question or by inference, making themselves so loud/whilst ignoring your needs, that they impinge on you, making you – mistakenly – feel you want to belong to them and it is learning to block THEIR need to make you feel this, and focus on our OWN need to focus on ourselves that I have found crucial – or else who are you living your life for? Tom, dick and harry? No thanks.
The issue is about working out what is truly and genuinely necessary to me after years of onion layers and trickery obscuring it and taking the steps to go for it, for me, to become real/external to myself and therefore validate me for who I really am. And what a pleasure this is!!! After all these years.
Life is a working progress for us all and is crucial that you have good self esteem to enable it to continue and not stall – because the world and ourselves as you know aren’t perfect – you and I are not perfect – and will invariable fall at some point – but with self esteem we won’t will rip ourselves to shreds about it and never try it again, we will acknowledge what happened, put in place strategies to protect ourselves/learn from it, follow through with them and get up and take the next step again – start walking and enjoy our lives regardless.
That’s what I am working on – today as it happens has been extremely tough and challenging – I am dealing with alot of things coming to an end at once – some that I am attached to negatively – and I am finding the death of things really, really hard, triggering my fears and anxiety – so thank you for acknowledging my prior posts to you – it means alot to be helpful to someone else in need because it helps balances out all the bad stuff I am too aware of, that I know I do/while doing something good for others.
Good luck with your new friends and keep helping your self esteem out by being generous, kind and loving to yourself – no matter what is happening around you. All the best…
“Water seeks its own level.”
Change your level: Remove behaviors and beliefs and thought patterns that no longer serve you. Make room for new thoughts, beliefs, positive actions…habits…better ways of living….
As with all change, there might be a grieving process associated with it. Be kind to YOU: don’t judge, don’t go to a place of shame or guilt; relax, relate, learn, release and move on with your life.
Practice, practice, practice
Work, try, work
2 steps forward 3 steps back
Up down
Fail
Frustration
Feel like giving up!
DON’T.
One day it sticks.
I think the key to removing behaviors, beliefs and thoughts patterns is to pay attention to our reactions to people/situations. An overreaction it a cue to look at that person/situation and understand what is familiar about it. Who does it remind you of?
Then we can start to pull it apart to see what thoughts, behaviors, beliefs are contributing to this reaction. Then we can grieve the losses associated with the new understandings.
Once we see what is driving our reaction we can make a different choice and respond instead of react.
For example, when someone, especially an authority figure, starts to get angry or overwhelmed, I panic. If I just panic and blame it on them and don’t look at the why, I don’t get anywhere. But if I look at it and say, oh yeah, when my parents got overwhelmed they started screaming at everyone, blaming them, and sometimes starting hitting people indiscriminately, then my panic starts to make sense. I can also see that it isn’t really about that other person. Their behavior just reminds me of someone. This examination/observation helps me to find a way to heal those feelings and to choose a healthy response. If I don’t do this, I’m not taking responsibility for my thoughts, actions, etc.., I’m essentially blaming them. I’m giving away my power and I won’t grow.
It’s incredibly freeing once you work through it.
Wow Veracity. Your breakdown of responding vs. reacting is very insightful. I’ll remember this and try to use it with my own interactions. You’re right, when we finally work through some of our own ‘junk’, it’s hard work that has to be repeated over and over to stick, it’s ultimately freeing.
It’s interesting that you focused on overreacting: It made me think; in my current conflict, I’m not overreacting, and I remembered a post Natalie wrote about it.
Nope, I’m not being triggered. I’m reacting to the present situation at hand, and it sucks all by itself.
I agree with you about sometimes our reaction being entirely appropriate, but I also know for myself that if I react in a way that I maintain my grace and think before I speak, I feel better about myself. I don’t hand over my power or let them drag me into drama, it feels less like I am out of control emotionally. After being an emotional train wreck for so many years and being in drama with an abusive ex, it feels so much better to not let myself get spun into it again.
Thanks this has been my day all over – over reaction due to my own fears based on past repeat experiences, handing over my power and dragged into a new soap opera with definitely no grace or thinking before acting – and no dinner as a result while I work it out!! (sorry BR just had a flash back revelation to my past).
Ok so now I see it directly reminds me of my mother and her coercive/controlling/betraying ways – but is actually another person in front of me and yes I see I need to put a boundary in place – and that not putting a boundary in place is making them feel anxious and that they need to control and have power over me – threatening and manipulating me to do what she thinks I should do – destroying my confidence and ability to think and do things for myself and have power and control myself in reality.
I don’t know whether to love or hate boundaries but this is definitely the fear – that I can’t put a boundary in place with this person and she will have her way/needs addressed only, I will not be heard and come to another massive calamity again… or starved while I work it out.
Some people don’t really want to change, and that’s fine. Bid them adieu and keep on walking because if you flock with their feathers, you won’t either. Sometimes you have to go it alone, …maybe you will meet up with someone down the road who drinks the same water…maybe you won’t, but you will always have your Self.
Some people on here don’t really want a relationship with themselves. They just want a man.
No they believe they want a man – I believe what they really want/need perhaps, is a reflection/mirror of themselves in reality – one that they can feel genuinely good about.
Perfectly said!
Years ago, I met a guy on-line, and I was interested in him, so I investigated him, and he appeared to be telling the truth about who he was.
It was weird though, he was culturally successful in many ways, but he still lied to me about his accomplishments. It was as if he had to make himself more succesful than he was, even though he was clearly quite successful. It was like a boxer saying he was 40-0, instead of 30-0.
Anyway, his online persona didn’t match him in the end.
I would never do the whole online dating thing because I have an overactive imagination that I don’t want to awaken.
I will say this though: if you are looking for love, trust, care, and respect, then don’t settle for your secondary values. Sure, they aren’t mutually exclusive; they just aren’t mutually inclusive as you might erroneously expect, as you sip on your magical thinking while emotionally reasoning that you are ‘right.’
“My yard is free of dandelions.” Hahaha. That made my whole night, Say.
Great article! Self-care and knowing to have / having boundaries (ie, being “awake, aware, street smart, grounded, not gullible, self-disciplined, boundaried, etc.,”) isn’t an “inconvenience”. It’s about being on the same playing field since wolves in sheep’s clothing are many among us – and letting them go around you since they recognize your self-empowered signs and (unfortunately) will move on to the unaware, naive, un-grounded, etc.
Every Minute by JJ Grey and Mofro
I tried so hard to be the person
Everybody thought I was
I pushed myself and everyone
Almost over the edge
This mirrored light that sends back
Everything that you send out
The grace you give
Given back
Lovin’ every minute you live
Feels so good to be warm in the sun
Lovin’ every minute of livin’
(It’s) so good to be warm in the sun
Lovin’ every minute of livin’
Evil deeds that we do
Screamin’ from the headlines
Can’t stop to read or to watch
Cause I ain’t got the patience or time
To live a life of despair
To live by another mans word
It’s always been in your hands
To live a life you want while you’re here
Chorus
I don’t care what you say to me
Everywhere beauty is all I see
And it don’t make a damn
Cause there ain’t nothing to take from me
I’m lovin’ every minute
I’m lovin’ every minute I’m free
Chorus x3
Guitar solo fade out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKJVA37aEl0
Say Something,
I think it is good that you are taking a break from online dating. Allow yourself some time to get away from the creepiness. I know you are going to be fine. Don’t allow anyone to rob you of your self worth and happiness. I hear your disappointment in your posts. Who knows in your daily life you may just meet someone who is worth spending time with. One day you will invite someone special back to your house to spend weekends with you. I know you want someone special in your life. I know you want lower your standards and you shouldn’t. You deserve to have someone special in your corner. I just can’t do a dating site. I know it will be a tougher route to find love without the help of a search machine, but I will take my chances. For now, I am taking a break too. I have some personal goals to focus on.
Be really careful about who you allow to have your heart. Do you have any goal or project you can work on? Can you do any of your home projects alone? I am working on 3 projects alone that have me super focused. It helps. Things like this help me take the focus off being alone. You have to think of things to do to keep your spirits lifted. It may sound silly but I try to keep things around me super organized. It helps with my outlook on everything.
Lately, I have been amused looking at the evening news shows. The news actually has me cracking up. I’ll take a laugh anyway I can get it. I haven’t laughed in so long. It feels good. Some times I still have tough times, but they pass. I just take it one day at a time. Acceptance has been the key to my healing. I am getting better day by day. I have to accept what happened even though it wasn’t my plan.
@Sofia-thanks for your posts. I love the way you are thinking and your messages are so positive.
Hugs,
MJ
LOL, totally.
It’s like, “You know I can’t give you what you need, baby. But maybe…for just four easy monthly payments of $49.95…”