It’s natural when you have a disagreement with someone, or they or you do something that gets misinterpreted, to explain and discuss what has happened. You can then move to resolution and go forward if both parties empathise with one another’s perspective and the incident isn’t symbolic of inherent disrespect.
A mutual relationship where you share similar values means it won’t be like one of you is speaking French and the other is speaking Chinese but both assuming you’re speaking the same language.
However, what I see are entire relationships that are like one giant misinterpretation or an ongoing dialogue of I Was Really Hurt When You Did X Which Really Disrespected Me So Let Me Tell You Why So That You Can Learn How Not To Do It Again.
In a mutual relationship, you have the past as an indicator of the ‘misunderstanding’.
In a new relationship, you have to question how much you need to really be explaining when you’ve been together for a hot minute. When you’re re-explaining, you’re basically trying to raise someone from the ground up.
Most adults know the fundamental difference between right and wrong, respect and disrespect, boundaries and no boundaries. Don’t believe me? Just try doing something to them and you’ll quickly see that knowledge in action. Those who don’t know the difference have serious issues that no amount of love or patient/terse/emotional explanations and dogged loyalty can resolve.
Explaining to someone how to treat you with the basics of love, care, trust and respect or repeatedly laying out why something doesn’t work for you or is hurtful, is incredibly devaluing.
Relationship smart people don’t explain why something is disrespectful because they recognise that they’re dating adults, not a child in an adult’s body.
They show how much respect they want by nipping it in the bud or opting out. You’re only patronising them and yourself by practically doing PowerPoint presentations. Yes, some readers have done this. Same for live ‘demos’, and talking slowly or begging and pleading with them to see your point of view.
I’m not explaining myself in that way to anybody. I only have two kids so there is no need for me to be raising any adult from the ground up. It’s like failing to heed a vital piece of information:
You have different values and are betting on potential.
You’re not being treated how you say you want to be treated, but you see ‘enough’ or feel too invested to back away. You’re trying to talk them into changing.
Explaining yourself that much to someone means that you can’t possibly regard yourself as equals. Either that or you’re projecting things that you believe you’re lacking and assuming they share the same ‘flaws’. Then it becomes “Well I’m no one to talk. Look at all the issues that I have so who am I to expect them to step up? I need someone to love me and be patient with me, so maybe they do too. Plus…what if it’s something wrong with me why they’re disrespecting me?”
Just like the person who thinks that if they ‘love enough’ that the other party will change and they’ll reach a tipping point of reciprocation, if you keep explaining why someone’s actions don’t work for you, it’s like you think that just one of these times if you’re shrill enough or have 20 tears in your eyes instead of 19, they’ll finally ‘get’ it.
When something isn’t working for you to the point where you consider it to be a lack of care, trust, respect or love, you step. If you’re still explaining, either they’re not listening or you’re not hearing feedback from your relationship.
Explaining once, fine. Explaining twice, OK, it’s second chances. Beyond that and it’s time to get off the crack.
While there are areas in a relationship where you can learn and grow together, such as healthy compromise and understanding each others communication style or what makes you tick, a learning gap in fundamentals means your relationship has busted or non-existent foundations.
It’s also important to recognise that talk is cheap. Action is where your relationship is at. In fact, matching actions and words is the ticket.
If someone isn’t going to treat you with respect in the relationship or has code amber or red issues, the signs are there from early on if you have both feet on the ground and are listening and watching. If you keep turning a blind eye, playing things down or believing you can ‘handle’ it, you don’t realise that you’re actually inadvertently giving a thumbs up to and accepting what they do. This lets them believe their feet are well and truly under the table.
Talking and explaining the crappola out of your relationship isn’t ‘handling’ it; it’s avoidance.
If in doubt, make a note of all of the things you’re explaining or ‘in talks’ about. Look for the common thread.
- Is it disrespect or lack of care/trust/love?
- Do you both want different things?
- Do you both see the relationship differently?
- Is it all on one person’s terms?
- Are you explaining stuff that would be obvious to anyone with an ounce of decency?
What I do know is that you can’t convince someone via copious explanations how to love, respect, care for, trust you or be trusted. These are all action-based.
Instead of telling them that you’re better than being in a Friends With Benefits/booty call situation and then continuing to shag them, show them you’re better than this by not participating. Upgrading from a casual relationship is exceedingly difficult.
Instead of explaining that you’re better than being called up late at night or being booked in as a last-minute arrangement when they’ve not got anything better to do, don’t take calls past a certain time. And if they contact you on Friday afternoon, you have other plans. The message is loud and clear: If you want to be with me, you need to flex up in advance not treat me like lastminutedate.com.
Instead of saying you’d like to be called more than once in a blue moon or that you don’t like being managed by text, go and get on with your life. Start out with more regular contact in your next relationship. The telephone was invented in 1876 and is still, after face to face, the most effective way of keeping in regular, engaged contact. It hasn’t died, people still use it, nobody is that busy.
Instead of telling them how you’d really appreciate it if they stopped roaming around on dating sites, shagging around, or mailing strange people for hookups and flirtations, tell them to shag off.
Explaining the crappola out of yourself is like negotiating with your boundaries and self-esteem and bargaining. “I’ll trade you some sex, a massive ego stroke and a blind eye if you can give me a semblance of a relationship and some validation”.
If you keep talking but not much action results, it suggests that there’s some leeway. After all, if there wasn’t, you’d be out of there or showing them you mean business, not acting like they’re irreplaceable and that you can’t survive without them.
Never negotiate with your boundaries and your self-esteem. You’ll end up talking yourself into a poor relationship. Continuously explaining yourself and teaching them how to act or treat you is at best a code amber in itself. You should be enjoying your relationship, not having to construct and direct it.
Your thoughts?
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This is so spot on! I wish I had abided by this with my last EUM experience, would’ve saved a lot of time and heartache… Anyhow, I’m using a lot more due diligence and care with the current guy in my life…I have a lot more self esteem which helps, and know my worth. On the whole, the first three months have been consistently good, he has shown wonderful qualities, respect and care for my feelings… But lo and behold, as soon as I have started getting comfortable with being ‘in a relationship’ with him (he was quick to ‘know he wanted to be with me, and I could be the one’, whereas I have been gradually warming up for various reason) and go with it, there has been a change in him… The initial hot behaviour is waning and we’ve had our ‘first disagreements’ and I’m now seeing a moody side to him… Hhhm, I guess I have to keep using my instincts, keeping my boundaries intact and see what happens. I can’t say there is ‘hot and cold’ behaviour, and he is no assclown, I know he has a lot of other stresses in his life which are making him preoccupied and I can’t expect to be a priority all the time. The flip side is, I am not getting superanxious like I would have done now that we have had a disagreement. I am not freaking out that he is going to do a houdini act just because I spoke up and said how I felt when he lost his temper nor am I afraid to be honest about my opinion… Putting up with something or saying nothing is what I would have done in the past, in case being strong ‘put the guy off’. But now that my boundaries are intact I will say my peace. I am a reasonable person and my perspective counts. We both have to learn from and about the other. What is important is respect for each others opinions, as they will differ at times.
WOW!!! Nat…you hit this right on the spot. I was thinking about all the crap I did with my ex four years ago and wondering if he’s doing the same thing to his new gf (old ex friend of mine) and just makes me think more about what an idiot I was to even date that guy. There was one time in our relationship, he dumped me, then I pretty much begged him to come back (he dumped me saying he thought that’s what I wanted) and then I decided to draft out an agreement on how he should be treating me ON PAPER!!! I realize now I was very immature and in a ridiculous relationship. Once I started explaining to him that I wanted him to take it seriously and that I wouldn’t believe he would follow through, he tore the paper up and laughed! I can’t imagine what the hell I am doing dwelling on the fact that he’s dating an old ex friend of mine who says is happy, when he obviously treated me like dirt and I went along with it all trying to explain to him that I was worth it enough to be treated like a lady!
As far as my most recent ex, I wouldn’t mind a shag from him once in a while since I know we both agreed on breaking up, but you are so right as far as re explaining things on why I deserve to be treated better. I was even considering seeing him this coming Sunday and now I’m seriously debating whether to or not! Thank so much Nat!!!
“There was one time in our relationship, he dumped me, then I pretty much begged him to come back (he dumped me saying he thought that’s what I wanted) and then I decided to draft out an agreement on how he should be treating me ON PAPER!!!”
=
— OMG! I did the same thing with my ex of 2 years ago *face palm* whom I have no clue how and why we dated. After breaking up and going back and forth in drama, I told him to write a manual about how he sees things, what he wants and how to treat him and he said I should first, mind you this was on the same day that he ignored my call backs to confirm plans we had, and after he finally answered at night, I begged him to hang ut with me the next day when he aid he didn’t feel like it….how ridiculous! I threw up in my mouth a little at that. All I needed to know was that he was an assclown and no manual I wrote would help him to treat me better or should have been necessary and his manual would have been one page with one sentence reading: “Continue doing everything I want and ask no questions. You’re my ego stroking slave and that’s all there is to know”.
Smh….I am glad I have graduated and it’s comforting yet scary to know that so many women have been me and have been just as ridiculous, but are also seeing the light. I hope my future daughter can learn from me and see me as an example and never end up in such scenarios.
MissE….I know what you mean in every way! I have been slapping my brain mentally for even dwelling on the fact that I am still thinking about how happy his current gf is with him and how much of a d*&k he was with me. But I am getting better thanks to the people around me and even talking to my other ex the other night (the one I mutually agreed on breaking up with) shows me how much worth there is to me. I have also been tapping into other resources to help with my depression (which I got after being with the EUM). It’s good to know this pain will not last forever and that so many more women out there are kindred spirits.
I wrote a How to Treat Me Manual for an ex once, too. You are not alone. I look back on it and shake my head. Astounding.
Natalie, I love this post. My EUMM would tell me I was “crazy, possessive and dangerous” because I wanted more than he “could give.” (Translation: was “willing to give”). I had to look deeply within myself and muster up what was left of my shredded self-esteem to realize that, in having to negotiate for the basics of communication, respect, and care, I was creating “drama” and discomfort for him…so he turned the blame on me. I allowed him to exploit my insecurities to the point that I was telling myself, “It is my fault. I am too possessive, too needy…” Only now, after NC, do I get that I had no choice but to opt out. This 51-year-old man/boy knew *how* he should have been treating me, he just chose not to…and was hoping I’d shoulder the blame for it! Easier for him to skate with his bad behavior!
blueberry girl, you are so right “because I wanted more than he “could give.” (Translation: was “willing to give”). Your analogy of the pharse is spot on.
MaryC
I’m not so sure that these two – ability and willingness in this context – are two different things. In terms of ability to offer us a decent relationship and emotional investment, the EUM/MM is like an empy well. The empty well is not able to give you water whether it is willing or not, and it can hardly be willing if it’s not able!
My EUM used to tell me that he knew I deserved so much more and I would respond with “but just not from you?”. He was neither able nor willing. He was neither willing nor able. It was all the same.
We read too much into and think too much about the semantics. (Has to be said too that the OW is not “willing” to end the affair – and she is presumably “able” to do that? The OW tends to put all responsibility onto the MM. Quite often we blame him for the very same issues we have oursleves).
But in reference to the current post, just as we should make our “explanations” action based, we should also focus on the guy’s actions – these ARE his explanations. If he’s not there, if he’s not with you, if he’s not leaving the wife or g/f, if he doesn’t have both feet in your relationship – there’s your explanation. Unlike us his actions ARE doing all his talking for him; whatever comes out of his mouth, his actions are telling the truth. People will, even despite themselves, always *show* you who they are – it’s up to us to pay attention and not over analyse or focus on his verbal “explanation” – he’s not analysing ours! We too, by our actions show him clearly enough who we are, i.e. whether or not we’re the type of woman who’s going to put up with his nonsense or not. It’s up to us to communicate the message we want him to get about who we are – by our actions – and you can’t pretend to be the woman you are not, which is why we may need to work on oursleves before we can change the message!
I get what you’re saying, Fearless. It’s a lot harder to focus on my own responsibility here and all too easy to blame him for his part. I guess my main point was that he had stomped on my boundaries to such an extent (I know, what else did I expect?) that my mind and spirit and heart became totally skewed. I couldn’t judge WTH the reality of the situation was! Now, through NC and reading BR religiously, I know the reality:
1) he was not available AND was comfortable cheating (desperately seeking his next victim as we speak…)
2) I was also unavailable BUT NOT willing to continue the lies and deception. I am just starting to dig myself out of the ruins and recover my truth and myself.
Blueberry, I so empathize. I too have struggled with not wanting to seem dramatic for voicing legitimate concerns. That’s not a relationship to be in if you can’t speak your truth. Likewise, if I have to voice my legitimate concerns 100 times and be dramatic and a nag and get emotional, it is apparent that I am on crack and need to opt the hell out!
“I had to look deeply within myself and muster up what was left of my shredded self-esteem to realize that, in having to negotiate for the basics of communication, respect, and care, I was creating “drama” and discomfort for him…so he turned the blame on me.”
HALLELUJAH blueberry girl, can I ever relate! So many arguments and fights have occurred because he was an assclown, so naturally I “talked and explained to him” to teach him basic respect, and in doing so became needy, nagging, and a drama-seeker. When in reality, I am none of that. At the end of the fights, somehow I became the one to blame, when hello! he was the one to be an assclown in the first place.
So twisted. Reality is reality. And the reality is I should’ve walked a long time ago the minute I was first disrespected.
They do like to twist things, don’t they? My ex-H used to come home late without calling, and he did this repeatedly. When I would get upset and tell him how I felt, he turned it around and said, “See, this is why I don’t come home!” What????
Jesus!
See, and at that point, we may start thinking “Well I must’ve done something to make him stay out all night, so something’s wrong with me.” And we look to different ways to morph into someone they adore and bend over backwards so they don’t want to stay out at night. When really what we should be doing from the get-go is kiss their ass goodbye for their shit behaviour.
Oh the amount of times I have stood up for myself only to get some lame excuses back. One time he was 2 hours late to go for dinner, I got mad and told him he needs to respect my time, and a
phone call would’ve been nice. His response “Oh my god I just had the roughest week at work, and now you are nagging me? I was just relaxing and lost track of time. Give me a break.” Flip the tables, if I was to be 2 hours later, he would’ve been long gone, off doing something else.
Makes me sick. No more bullshit!! Less standing up for ourselves, more WALKING AWAY, and finding relationships that don’t require us to stand up for ourselves in the first place!
“If someone isn’t going to treat you with respect further down the relationship or has code amber or red issues, the signs are there from early on if you have both feet on the ground and are listening and watching”
My recent near –miss EUM is a work colleague. He has a bad “habit” of not responding to personal or work emails of mine. By personal I mean non -work, but non intimate stuff. Last September I spoke with him about this, emphasizing that I need his responses/feedback to carry out aspects of my work. He was surprised by my bluntness and agreed to be more prompt, which he was for a while. Fast forward to last month: in 3 months and he’s responded to 2 work emails ( I stopped sending personal emails around March). So I email him, explaining how I have to interpret his non replies as “no” or “bug off” or “ask someone else”. I asked that he reply in a timely fashion, as would my other colleagues. And concluded by saying “I loathe assuming the position of lecturer/nag/email stalker and I will not bring this up again”. His reply was terse: “Your frustration is indeed understandable and regrettable on my part. I will be more responsive hereafter”. It didn’t feel genuine to me. And I realized-this guy can’t show me respect enough to answer an email even AFTER I’ve already expressed my feeling on the subject. He can’t even muster a genuine, empathetic apology. Here was a bright red flag: If he can’t come through for me as a colleague, he’ll never be able to come through for me as a friend, or as a lover.
Amazing…this couldn’t have come at a better time. I love your blog…its so perfect. I’m so lucky I happened to find your website…its so valuable! THANK YOU!!!
Another very valuable post here. Here’s the trap I fell into – if a guy is “nice”, you have great chemistry, you have a lot of fun and common interests – maybe you are soul mates! – I thought that his past issues would evaporate, and that he would grow and thrive in the unconditional love I put his way. Well, it didn’t work out that way – he threw my love under the bus. He continued to be the way he has always been – which is nice on the surface, self centered and unable to love, underneath, controlling the relationship based on how it served him 95% of the time (a couple of times he exhibited behavior caring for my feelings when I was going through stuff in my life). I would explain to him how his behavior made me feel, he would listen, make an adjustment for a week or so, then return to his old ways. So that experiment went awry. Yes, I want someone who already has the fundamentals – character, reliability, kindness, respect, and most of all, one who thinks giving and receiving love is desirable, not to be avoided. We’re not going to teach them anything, and they aren’t going to listen if they do not understand good behavior. Just an observation – I’ve seen poor effects when men have non-nurturing relationships with their moms – which my last man readily told me he did. (As did my ex husband, who was a mean one, with a mean mom.)
OMG! I’ve heard myself say ‘I can handle this’ when actually I shouldn’t even have to be in that position in the first place – like you say no-one is ever THAT special!!!
Hi Its been a minute since I have even posted on this site since my last posting that I had reached VICTORY after a year or so no contact. Well its been much more longer than a year now actually going a year and and couple of months now and the ASS CLOWN called my cell today. Not only does he critique my voicemail greeting but he gives this lame statement “You can call me back if you want to or not; it is what it is”. If it is what it is and we haven’t met or made contact in over a year or so and I have made no attempts at contacting or calling you; what else is there?!? HELLO!
Thank God I once was lost but now I’m found and it if i was still LOST I probably would be so dumbfounded and return his call but I have no desire whatsoever to do so. And nothing in his message gave me any indication that he was 1. Sincere 2. Was anyway sorry to what he had done to me 3. Showed any signs of improvement or even really concerned in his message.
Just thought I ‘d check in and share my story today and encourage a few of you who still may be hanging on or struggling. I guess it would be great for me to start reading a few more posts again just to stay FOCUSED!! Good luck to all.
JJ,
“Not only does he critique my voicemail greeting but he gives this lame statement “You can call me back if you want to or not; it is what it is”.”
Hilarious!! That voice mail has insecurity written all over it. He’s trying to hard to be flip and act all cool, that it’s blatantly transparent. He’s not even willing to take the risk of being the tiniest bit vulnerable, and say something even remotely resembling a desire to talk to you. I mean, if he didn’t want to talk, he would never have called in the first place, but apparently he’s still at that place where he is willing to risk absolutely nothing.
I applaud your wisdom and discernment on this one. I’m so glad you are choosing not to engage.
LOL JJ that’s really comical, “it is what it is” — he’s already offended by the mere idea on his own brain that this could go either way and you may not call him back, and he can’t help but give you attitude about it pre-emptively! Like “call me back if you want, I’m not gonna beg you” Super EU not to even be able to be vulnerable enough to put out a genuine invitation to reconnect. Besides, he knows he doesn’t deserve another chance!
Yep. Once you’ve had a few of these convos, it’s time to start walking….
My situation is probably not as unique as I think, but I married a EUM & have been having a “ting” with a former “ting” which in effect makes him the “Other Man”. Because of the “situation” I feel like I can’t ask him to be half way decent to me since I’m a cheater anyway…
Last time I saw him though, I had yet ANOTHER talk with him about how he treats me & he listened, said alright & then….didn’t do a thing. So I’m just working on me now. Getting myself independant enough to get out of my mutually emotionally unavailable marriage & get the heck on with my life with the help of this blog & the books! I finally got in touch with my feelings after YEARS of being unable to cry! YAY! now I cry every day 😉
Hiya,
I just want to thank BR. Since I found it in December, my self esteem has grown and I am now (almost) the person I was before I became involved with an EUM. We had separated for 18 months, because I couldn’t deal with his AC behavior. Sadly in a weak moment I contacted him and we resumed our pseudo relationship. Two months ago he left his facebook page open on my laptop, and, where previously I had trusted him, this time I read some of his messages. He was flirting with over 20 women he had “met on a dating site. Armed with this information I marched to his house, and told him that I would not tolerate this and if he wanted to continue to see me he had to stop. Three days later when I rang him, he was popping around to a female neighbours for an hour. When I phoned him after an hour, he didn’t answer his phone, and continued to not answer for the rest of the evening. So I rang him next day and reminded him of what I said. We had a huge row, but for the next month he was at my house straight after work, and I cooked and washed for him. Then one morning I was due to go to college, and he wasn’t moving to go to work, and he said he had a day off, and was I going to college? I said yes, lets meet at lunchtime. I called him, phone switched off. When I got home, his facebook was still on my computer. He had just that very day been chatting to some other woman. And I read some more. Turns out in the 18 months he had met another woman, had and abandoned another child(that would be his 3rd), and fed her the same old rubbish he had fed me. So I called him and said I had given him all the warnings I could. I didn’t want to see him again, his behavior disturbed and saddened me, but he told me I was an idiot, pathetic and late, as usual, I had to stop contact with him and that it was all my fault, if I had been with him none of it would have happened!!! Classic. Luckily because I had been reading this site, I was prepared. I have been over 30 days no contact now. I feel great, and I also realise that I was unavailable with him. Some instinct was telling me he wasn’t good enough for me. He has his good qualities, don’t get me wrong. But in some ways, deep down some instinct pulled me back from living together etc, ( even though he wanted that). So, as much as he couldn’t commit to me, nor I could to him.I love you all. Thank you xx
OMG Sorry. I got carried away. Anyway, all I had left to say was thank you all, and Natalie. You have given me the strength to realise I can’t save anyone else. It is my life, and the only one I have to look out for is myself. God bless
xx
We quite often feel the need to explain things to men because we think they don’t understand emotions as well as we do. There’s a lot of relationship advice telling us we should approach men as if they’re gorillas who can’t understand the finer points of human interaction. I say bollox to that.
And even the self-c0nfessed, “Emotions are for women, I’m a man, I do everything by logic like a computer (but not one that runs on Vista Home Basic)” man knows what loyalty is. He knows it’s wrong to be sniffing around other opportunities – he sure as well wouldn’t like it if YOU did it HIM and, would be WAY less forgiving.
The reason they come crawling back from their cold spell/other women/ with apologies, sweet talk, puppy eyes, future faking, great sex and compliments is to avoid the kick up the arse they know they deserve. They know exactly what they’re doing unless they’re complete idiots. And who wants to be with a complete idiot?
You are so right, grace. I always thought to myself: he must not understand where I am coming from, what my feelings are, how I see the situation. So I talk and explain and talk some more and end with ‘do you see where I am coming from?” He’ll quickly say yes, muster up a sorry, and I will think I have accomplished something. Then he manages to slip in some blame to me for being a nag, and then the ‘relationship’ will continue so he can avoid feeling like an ass.
They know exactly what they are doing, and that their behaviour is disrespectful. And thats what makes me sort of sick to my stomach. They know what they are doing, we know what they are doing, therefore they must realize we are willing to put up with shit?
Having a hard time accepting this. I keep thinking he is oblivious to his disrespect towards me. But when I step over his boundaries (in the slightest!) I am immediately made known of it. So he very well knows what disrespect is, otherwise he would not call me out on it. I guess the only way to make my self-esteem feel better is to walk away from the shit and the disrespect. Reality is a hard pill to swallow, but denial tastes so much worse, because our gut can feel denial and will prod at us until we get it.
“Reality is a hard pill to swallow, but denial tastes so much worse…” A nice commentary on the amount of self-esteem we swallow when we stay with these clowns.
That’s going on my fridge!
Ya, when I am in denial – minimizing, rationalizing, explaining – my gut is screaming at me. Yelling at me. The reasoning behind denial is skewed and may confuse our gut temporarily, offering temporary relief from a much bigger problem.
When I see reality and say hey something’s not right here, I am living in denial in a half-assed relationship where I am put down and degraded..why the F am i still here? my gut rewards me when I acknowledge reality. Sounds silly, but I can feel the difference. The peace internally when you know your are opening your eyes to the truth.
I am happy through NML’s posts to see reality but unfortunately I still go back to denial quite often.
Can’t wait for the day where my gut is at peace.
Australia; I relate to what you say.
Last night in bed I felt my anger at the EUM rising (like I used to get when I literally could not sleep for feeling so angry at the whole thing). I have been NC now for months (am not counting anymore!). But instead of focusing on the workings of my head, as I used to do and which would have led into the hundred “explanations” I would be needing to give him tomorrow (!), I decided instead to just consider the physical and emotional feeling that those thoughts had brought on in me: that gut wrenching, gut churning impotent fury – really I’d call it plain old ‘anxiety’ or ’emotional distress’. So in doing that I felt angry that I was still giving him/it that even for a second – that I was till wasting my time (and my sanity) feeling distressed and impotent! And I said to myself clearly:
No more, (Fearless)!! No effing more!! Enough! I am not giving him one more wasted, impotent, futile iota of myself. I will not distress myself anymore over a man who doesn’t give a flying fu*k about how I feel! So this “feeling” can just Eff Off right out of my head and my body!.. And you (Mr EU), you. get. nothing. Nothing more – you lose! And at that I turned it all off and slept like a baby!!
Agreed, grace. Women MUST stop treating men as if they’re little boys who are incapable of any & all responsibility, thoughts & feelings, good behaviors, etc. They are NOT stupid and know EXACTLY what they’re doing. If my 4 nephews under the age of 12 know what they’re doing, then dammit, grown men are more than capable of proper human interactions. If you think about it, it’s actually quite belitting to treat men as if they’re children. It’s like an adult saying “Oh, s/he’s just a kid. S/He won’t understand.”
We’re not children.
If a man – or a woman – is treating you badly for an extended period, it’s because you don’t have the self respect to expect more. Simple as.
Actions speak louder than words, from both ends. If you don’t like being treated in a certain way, have the talk.
If nothing changes, don’t try to have the talk again. Take action instead.
You can leave, or you can stay. If you stay, you already know what you’re going to be getting.
It’s up to you to decide if you want to settle for that, or if you want more.
And just to add – the good-looking, popular guys have a lot of choices. To them, it’s not a big deal if a woman leaves, because they can always find a replacement.
You may think you’re different and unique to him, but unless you’re seeing actions that prove that consistently, it’s really not very likely that you are.
So if a partner is treating you like you’re not important, it’s because to him (or her), you aren’t.
There is no mystery or ambiguity about this; it’s not complicated.
It IS as clear as that, once you have clarity!
I kinda wish “some guy” in my life would have said – or demonstrated – as much. From my dad through most of the men I’ve dated, and only now realizing I was getting it from my mom’s side and extended family, the line was “You think this is disrespect? You don’t know what disrespect is. Don’t get all highfalutin and expect any better, or you’ll be alone for the rest of your life!”
Or, “You know how messed up I am. But I have a good heart. You know I have a good heart. Please don’t leave me because I’m messed up.”
And I’ve found those words coming out of my own mouth.
Yep, SomeGuy, Thank you for your frankness. I’m holding on to someone who disrespects me, doesn’t change, rejects me yet … is still there. Fact is he won’t be heartbroken if I leave. He always tells me to take him as he is or leave it because he is who he is. So I figured he would always be this way. But you know what, he may still have several of the same habits and issues, but he will make some changes when the right girl comes along. Or maybe no changes will need to be made, maybe she will be happy with the way he is. I’m obviously not her. Problem is I have tried to be her for way too long. But I’m not. Makes life easier knowing that, and that he won’t change (at least for me), so why keep trying if I am obviously not happy with the way things are.
And Magnolia, I have fallen for the same words “I have a good heart, I am just messed up”. So I think that just a bit more love, more comfort, more kind words, more sex (aka back bending) will open up his heart. Nope, I am not the girl for him. Period.
Australia
They don’t change for the right girl, he changes (for his own raesons, and maybe he never will *hugh* cough *hefner*) and the right girl comes along – I keep saying this but it bears repeating. To attract bees you need honey, if you’re putting out crap, you only attract flies. I’m not saying we’re flies, lol, but like attracts like. If he’s EU, flip flapping, shallow (popular, charming, manipulative etc) he will attract the kind of woman who values that nonsense. However beautiful, attractive, confident or successful she is, if she drawn to that stuff, she has issues.
If you want a proper relationship a) BE the kind of person who wants a proper relationship (committed, optimistic, trustworthy, trusting – without being a doormat – willing to be vulnerable, not cynical, emotionally brave and b) pick men who are the same. Don’t get it twisted and start picking shallow men that you’ll deepen with your awesomeness. They are who they are, the package may be terrific but it’s what’s inside that really counts. Popularity and good looks mean absolutely nothing when it comes to building a sold relationship – we’re not in the Big Brother house ya know!
I think Shakespeare said it first: All that glitters is not gold.
I believe they do know much more than we give them credit for. This is also why they just move onto new targets so quickly when the jig is up with us… so they can avoid feeling like the ass we’ve made them feel. People who know how to get their needs met by manipulating and controlling others will continue to do it, they are lacking in some sense of compassion and empathy. If they do it to you, you’ll see it come up in many areas of their life. I see them as perpetually single, or perpetually in the dog house. I believe that as a result of them knowing exactly what they do, they will devalue anyone who sticks with them. They don’t just automatically turn into great people because they bagged something new.
“He knows it’s wrong to be sniffing around other opportunities – he sure as well wouldn’t like it if YOU did it HIM and, would be WAY less forgiving.”
The many times I said this to my ex…I always had to, or tried to, turn the tables and give him an example and then ask him how he would feel. And he would say, ‘oh well I’D stay calm !’ Haha, no he wouldn’t. But it’s easy to say that, when I never mistreated him.
And the few times he thought I did (he said things like, ‘you’re all nice and kind you are, but on the insight I bet there’s a bitch’ Waw. Well thanks honey.) he would go totaly closed door on me, lituraly, lock the door from the insight if he thought I was disrespecting him.
Totaly unbalanced situation, and when we spoke about our problems it always seemed that when we were done talking I had been offered 10 more/other problems just to avoid my own arguments I’d put on the table.
Always about him, he could àlways reduce my feelings to the point where the conversation ended that he wasn’t loved enough, even more, he wasn’t loved enough and didn’t get enough sex. Bam. Always those 2 things.
Sad really. I gladly feel very distanted from him after 1,5 month NC. And I actualy start to feel sorry for him for being so utterly blind to his vision of himself. Being ‘the good guy surrounded by bitches, and the only ladies he knows are women who don’t actualy get or want to get to close to him’.
Sofie – that guy is very, very, very bad news for you – and for anyone else he gets involved with. The fact is it is him who has nothing – absolutely nothing – to offer you. Explain nothing more to him – EVER – or he will suck you dry (like a lollipop) and throw you away when you’ve got nothing left. Stick with that NC – trust that process; it does get better.
Meagan
I seem to be missing your point ….you call him your EUM ? …insinuating some degree of relationship ? But it sounds from your post he is a colleague ? ( forgive me if I’ve misinterpreted the situation ) …for whom you have imagined a future / potential boyfriend ?
Not answering your emails promptly does not make him EU , at best he may be tardy, or maybe plain not interested ? maybe he senses you want more than being work colleagues and doesn’t want to encourage that ?
I’m sorry if I read your post wrong, but a few tardy emails does not an EUM make….its scarecly even a red flag.
Fitness
My “near-miss” EUM (I have not delved into the story here so yes some background is missing). I mean that his collegial actions are a direct/parallel reflection of his interpersonal actions (what you see is what you get, all around). For some reason I could ride out the interpersonal EUM-ness, but it took the manifestaton of that on a professional level to really…make me feel insulted. I think how people treat someone in every day situations gives you an indication of how they’d treat someone in intimate situations. (Notice how women are often told to judge a date in part by how he treats the waitstaff. On first blush you might wonder how such treatment even relates to a future relationship).
9 months was the time it took to go through a relationship that started good and ended bad. Nothing new, I know, and yes those red flags were there early on. A sad little voice inside wants to ask him to get back together. But it’s keeping mum, because an even sadder and maybe smarter voice keeps saying that the problems have not (will not) be resolved.
Thanks for a very useful article for me at this time, as was the code red and amber article.
This is a really great post, but – now I’m going to sound stupid here – I honestly don’t think I have any idea if someone is disrespecting me or it’s my fault. I was married for 12 years and my ex-husband, while not an AC was EU, and had an odd convoluted way of communicating so that i was left stammering and confused and agreeing only because I hadn’t had any idea what he’d said and just wanted to stop him from talking. i have been in an on-again-off again relationship with a much younger man for a year now and still don’t know if he is genuinely disrespectful or if i am crazy! he can be incredibly sweet but also has an odd way of communicating that is similar to the Ex (no segues, lots of non-sequitors) though I chalked this up to a developmental issue he had as a child (did not speak until age5). Windup this long winded comment w/i really need some examples that aren’t calling up last minute for a date, etc. cause this guy has never done that. He *has* said that he couldn’t go hiking w/me cause his foot hurt, then disappeared for a few hours when i couldn’t reach him and when i did, yup, he was hiking. Stuff like that. Am i crazy? We’ve just broken up and I really really really need help going NC if I am NOT crazy. Thanks ladies, as always for the inspiration.
Hi Lowla,
It sounds as though you were in a long relationship where making sure you knew you were listened to and respected wasn’t high on the priority list.
From the bits I’ve learned on this site, I’d say that if you have no idea if someone is disrespecting you or not, then that in itself is a good reason to take yourself off the market, and focus on loving and respecting yourself until you know what it is and what it looks like to give it. Then you’ll be able to recognize if you’re receiving it.
I accepted a lot of poor behaviour in my last relationships because I could never be sure if the “problem” was “me.” I didn’t even know what “loving myself” meant, so with men I was interpreting all the wrong kinds of signs as love or at least as the precursors to love. Now that I have some practice, I am much clearer about what love entails (for me that’s constancy, reliability, care for my feelings, care for my body and safety, a priority on intimacy, a commitment to not telling other people how to live, and more).
Thanks for replying to me but I am honestly in really bad shape after cutting contact with this guy cause i’m still not sure I did the right thing and damn it I miss him. I really need help with NC. I blocked his phone #, his emails, blocked him on FB and Twitter, but I still look at his twitter account to see what he’s doing. i’m so hurt that he’s not contacting me and I know that’s whacky! I’m crossing my own boundaries! Can someone help with NC and make sure i stay on it?
Hi again Lowla,
That is what this site is here for; to provide the support you need to stay strong. No one can hold your hand so that your texting fingers stay busy or tie you down so you don’t pick up the phone; only you can do that. You can also keep yourself away from the Twittercrack. Yes, it hurts. But you can survive the hurt. Like pulling an infected tooth, it hurts like hell for a while but is good in the long run, allowing you to move toward pain-free living.
Low-la,
if you think you’ve made a mistake, there’s always ‘suck it and see’? But really, who even thinks about going NC when the guy is taking every reasonable measure to contribute positively to a relationship?
Aside: what I say to pupils at school (am a secondary school teacher) whose teacher has told them to leave the class and stand in the corridor till he/she can deal with them. When asked why he or she has been put out of class, I get these typical offerings:
I never done anything
Teacher said I did X thing, but it wasn’t me
It wasn’t just me
I was trying to do my work but… the teacher said…
The teacher just started getting at me for nothing
Teacher said I was having a carry-on but I wasn’
I was only asking…
I only said…
I only did…
My typical response:
I see!… So it’s the teacher who was disrupting the lesson? Is that what you’re telling me?
Or
I see!…So the teacher has sent you out of the class for hard work and good behaviour?
Thanks again to you both and to all of you.
Low-la – This guy is a crazy maker. He does the bait and switch and the you start questioning your own sanity – that is called CRAZY MAKING!!! Listen to your gut – if it does not feel right – it isn’t right!! Hope you are still NC.
This post reminded me of the very last incident with the ex-EUM before I dumped him. I actually found myself explaining to him WHY his refusal to even bother to call me on my birthday (while we were in the same city, mind you!) after five years of our “relationship” had really hurt my feelings.
Seriously.
It was then that I knew that I was dealing with a man with the emotional capacity of a rock. And I walked.
Cheers.
Natalie – am I bugged?
I had a second discussion with the BF about a boundary of mine that he has never crossed but was asking me about it for a second time the other day. He understands that if this particular boundary is every crossed then I will have to walk. This particular boundary is 50-50 with some people being ok with it and others not – the Lapdance debate!
He hasn’t been trying to convince me that they’re “ok” but it came up twice as his brother’s bachelor party is approaching. Both times I said it was a boundary I wasn’t going to accept being crossed – drunk, pressured, etc. If it happens, I’m out. He agreed that he would steer clear and would not be partaking in the event but continued to keep telling me how “they’re not what you think they are.”
I felt like my boundaries were being questioned and I continued to defend myself and tried to get him to understand. I told him I was not backing down and by him bringing it up again I felt like he was fishing for me to budge on the issue. He dropped it. I became emotional and upset for about 10 minutes. Tears but no yelling.
I’m proud of staying strong but I’m not proud of myself for defending my stance. I should have just said “you know how I feel about it.” and let it go.
Thoughts – advice?
Sam,
I have been reading someone else’s blog on this very issue of bachelor parties. Basically he says it is not a big deal that it would be if it’s something the boyfriend participated in frequently. But, like you, I’d have issue with it. How is it ok that another woman is shaking her stuff in my boyfriend’s lap? How is that ok? I don’t know many women that would NOT be angry at this. It would cut straight to the core of me and bring up all kinds of stuff.
Bachelor party is just that a party for men. So women don’t like the idea of it but its not YOUR party is it? Personally I think the porn industry demeans men and women and lap dancing bars are just part of that industry. HOWEVER my boundaries are about ME and what people do to me..not about someone else having an all male party I disagree with. I think people need to understand that someone encroaching on your boundaries is not the same as someone doing something, NOTHING to do with you that you dislike in their own private time. However you may feel that someone who is willing to go to lap dancing bars simply doesn’t understand what the porn industry is about and maybe needs education!.
Do you consider someone disrespecting you doing something to you?
I think getting a lap dance (not a bachelor party) is much more than someone just doing something on their own in their own “private time” – if that’s the case then a guy could do whatever he damn well felt like and I couldn’t hold him to any standard because he just did it “on his own time.”
I assure you that this boundary that I have set (cheating too, as it’s close to the same thing in my eyes) is something I’m not willing to back down on and it most certainly does have to do with me if it is crossed.
If you think something is unacceptable, then why make an exception, just because it’s a special occasion? Using the occasion of a bachelor party to make something sound OK, is not OK with me either.
Sam.
Tell him that for your hen night you and a bunch of girlfriends have decided to “put on a show” for a bunch of randy men at a city centre lapdancing club. Same thing. Would he be okay witht that? I don’t think so!
But it’s not about his boundaries, it’s about yours. For me it’s not so much him going to the lapdance – but that he’s the type of bloke who supports that kind of industry (I agree with poster below who says they don’t know or care to know what the whole sex industry is really about).
I’d love some thoughts on respect, if explaining is useless, within family relationships. I’m staying with a relative right now who can’t really have a conversation with me, only lectures me, is quite aggressive and can’t take any disagreement. She has already, in the few days that I have been here, lost it with me in a way that left me speechless – screaming at me in the street and calling me names (religious insults) that even my ex-AC would never call me. She calmed down and gave me one of those “I’m sorry if I yelled” apologies, so we are still speaking, but I am quite aware – as if she had lost her temper and hit me – that she has shown her lack of restraint and that it could happen again.
I am choosing to stay here for the next week so that I can complete this trip as planned and make my next stop instead of flying home. I have been wondering about what family interaction looks like for you, Natalie, because if my relative had been a boyfriend, our relationship would be over. I am a bit torn over showing my relative that she can treat me this way and “get away with it”. In my heart I have already withdrawn, and put up walls, and have deflected or ignored incendiary comments since. Am I communicating the wrong things about myself?
I have already tried gently going into explanation territory and get called ‘arrogant’ and ‘disrespectful’ for telling her how to talk to me in her own house.
Nat, another excellent post, thank you. I was appallingly PASSIVE with my ex-EU by protesting too much, instead of ‘voting with my feet’ (love this)!
Magnolia,
U.n.a.c.c.e.p.t.a.b.l.e behaviour. RED FLAG, the size of Texas. Lecturing/bullying is her modus operandi, with you. A classic bully. And you’re letting her get away with murder. Bullies are selective. They know who to pick on.
Is the deal (that she negotiated with herself ) that you’re only allowed to breathe, whilst staying under HER roof?? How very childish/controlling/authoritarian.
Either you think she’s worth the trouble (which I doubt very much) and sit her down for a BRIEF telling off of her unacceptable behaviour, that you won’t tolerate ANY of it from now on (no lengthy explanation), OR you vote with your feet and decide that she’s (and always has been?) a bully/waste of space and check into a hotel. Simple. Her despicable behaviour (ACTION) tells you who she is. As someone here so aptly wrote, ‘it’s all there is to know’. So now, what is there to know about Magnolia? That you are someone deserving of respect? Your ACTIONS alone will determine that.
Our boundaries should apply to EVERYONE, including, or shall I say, ESPECIALLY relatives. Why? Isn’t where our low self-esteem issues stem from?
This relative dislikes you/might be resenting your staying over her house, and she’s being aggressive about it.. I don’t think you’re particularly happy in the company of such a bull (unless her behaviour is out of character, which I doubt), so my question is, why did you both go through this arrangement?
If it’s about saving $, then, is letting (by shutting up & staying) her erode the self-esteem you are trying to build up really worth it?
I grew up being told to ‘respect’ my relatives , when they had ZERO respect for me, and so, ended up resenting the hell out of them, in silence, otherwise my mother would ‘kill’ me. When I became old/brave enough to have a say (about 15), I engaged in the same endless arguments (lasting years) with my mother about her ‘family’ (that had bullied her all those years), and cut those losers off my life in the end.
This situation is yet another test for you, isn’t it. The fact that you’re questioning how to react to someone’s aggressive behaviour, should point where you are on the self-esteem progression chart.
Self-esteem doesn’t grow on trees, it grows by tackling e.v.e.ry single person who tries to rob you of your dignity.
It should be one size fits ALL (the people who try to tramp on you).
I’d say, stand up for yourself and/or get the hell out, pronto!
Good luck
My mother was worried when I told her I was coming here. I thought, “I can handle it.” Well.
One good thing to come out of this is having new perspective on old family dynamics (haven’t spent this much time with this relative in 20 years) – gives me some perspective on my mom’s attitudes. Also, I realize that I am an adult now, and that her pronouncements of my godlessness don’t strike fear into my heart the way they used to. What I also see is the truth of this post: ie. why explaining and reexplaining don’t work.
My relative is, in fact, trying to get me and others to respect *her* boundaries: which means no statements that offend her sensibilities, or that touch her unconscious sensitivities or insecurities, and no questioning of her often racist and sexist generalizations.
How quickly I just tune her out! How quickly all her voice raising and expressions of disgust, or disapproval, or disagreement get really old! There may be things that she is *right* about in her many “You should do this” and “You shouldn’t do that”, but the fact that she hasn’t noticed that the way she talks about it isn’t working, and is in fact alienating. She has taught me much about how “explaining” my point in a relationship is ineffective if what I’m trying to do is get someone to come around to my worldview.
She can explain til she is blue in the face what I “have” to do.
Her husband is disrespectful to her in many ways and she allows it, running off at the mouth back at him, but to no real consequence. In the end, she has married him and he has the money and that’s pretty much all there is to know.
It really is about walking the walk. I know I am sticking it out here because I had a travel plan and that is my priority. My relative has clearly decided that a certain amount of disrespect is *natural* in close relationships, and tells *everyone* what to do, and in return gets people close to her who need something from her but do not really listen to what she says on most important issues. It’s too bad.
For me, I am also aware of the upside of this being potentially my last chance in life to hear some of her old stories about the homecountry, which I love. She has lots of stories of *other people’s* bad behaviour / judgmental gossip that still full of Caribbean colour!
Anyway, this has been a very personal (my family has always told me I am much like this relative! :o!) in how believing you can “explain” someone into submission is really an invitation for silent types to take advantage, or to just nod and then later do exactly as they want.
It also makes me see how *rare* real, healthy talks about conflict ought to be taking place. It shouldn’t be every day. I mean, this woman has something she’s morally enraged about every hour or so. I keep my respect for her as my own personal decision to do so, as family, not because she is behaving in a way that commands respect. If anything, all the nagging (yes, nagging) erodes it very quickly.
Magnolia,
This is outrageous! You should not have to tolerate this nonsense.
Go to a hotel!
Can’t afford to.
Okay, so how many times do I have to learn this lesson? Today I said something that irritated my relative and she hit me in annoyance. Not hard, but a definite slap, and definitely in anger and in public. We were out on a bus trip with a group of her friends so I waited until we got home to let her know her behaviour was unacceptable, and that I’ll be moving to a hotel tomorrow.
She says it was a light swat, a brush of my hand away from her, I am too sensitive and am I really going to not forgive my own family member? She pushed open the door twice to my room to raise her voice to me to keep saying, “I’m sorry, I’m sorry, okay? You won’t forgive your [relative]?” She says I’m “throwing a punch” and that I can’t treat people like this.
We already had a version of this pushy apology after the screaming in the street incident. She’s like, “Am I so bad? I’m not so bad that you can do this to your own family. So I’m a monster. I’m a monster, I know. But family forgives.” Etc.
But I was simply hoping we could get through my visit without me being called a demon again. But to raise her hand to me? Really? Does anyone else forgive this kind of thing?
Please any support you can offer would be appreciated. I feel I have done my best to be respectful, preserve the relationship, avoid drama, etc.
This is a pretty straightforward situation and you have to ask yourself that if you could stay at a hotel, this was always the more appropriate option. If you stay, you’re not going to revolutionise the wheel overnight. She is who she is. If you go, you have no drama. Simple.
Yes, find somewhere cheap and cheerful and drama-free. Your relative is obviously has a lot of growing up to do – her reasoning appears to be that we should be able to treat people anyway we like so long as they are related. Nope. And her apology is as per Nat’s recent post on that subject – maybe have another read at that… she’s not really aoplogising – she’s telling you she’s your relative so she should be able to create for you an embarrassing scene in public where she gets to slap you around and then cos you don’t succumb to her bullying she’s shouting an “apology” at you – she’s only sorry you’re not falling for her crap. Nope. Not on. You’ll be the ‘bad one’ no matter what you do, so do what suits you and that’s to pick up your bags and go.
I’m moving now as it means three days of accom on the credit card, rather than the week and change it would have meant had I left at the first incident. I now see why just not coming here was the best option – ie. never making the plan to stay here in the first place.
I can’t say I “knew knew” – in the sense that she has always been critical, judgmental etc, to a certain level, that I had experienced before, and I was willing to look past that and let it roll off. Now I see that the name calling and screaming is what I might have expected under the pressure of closer and longer contact. I really thought it would be ‘only’ criticism.
Once I was here, in the situation, it felt like staying and not rocking the boat would be “less drama.” Only not being here at all could have meant “no drama.” That would have meant not getting to see her at all, though; and missing out on the good stuff, the family stories, the opportunities for kindness.
I guess this is what happens if I’m patronisingly thinking “I’ll put up with that” so that I can have a place to stay. What would have been smarter would be to only come if I could come on my own dime, and visited her via having dinner or some other thing, and then she wouldn’t feel so slighted.
Well. Wish I could do it over again.
I reread your posts about relationships with mothers and found stuff there that had never resonated with me before. I had never made the connection. But suddenly everything you described there put words on what I have been experiencing. It IS a bit of a mindf*ck when a woman who is older than you, family, tells you you’re basically a bad child.
Ok, I’m out. My relative and I did have a chance to speak, just before I left. She admitted to being “rough” and told me she believes that to put up with her yelling and “explosiveness” is what family does – what love – does. And that my leaving is, to her, a terribly unChristian non-forgiveness. And that this belief (here she laughed, ruefully) helps her put up with a husband that yells at her and cusses her out. Forgive and forget, she said. If I didn’t do that, she said, I would have to leave him!
I think I communicated that my leaving is about putting space between me and her, that I love her but I don’t want to be in the line of fire of her unpredictable bursts of anger. It spiralled into a convo about histories and family upbringing and stuff. But then I unthinkingly mentioned I had a history of depression, and that seemed to perk her right up. “Oh, that explains everything!” she said. “You should have told me that about you.” So in her mind this whole event may now be attributable to my pitiful depressive tendencies. Whatevs, as the kids say.
Sitting on the subway with my suitcase, I was suddenly struck by how much I do not want to be alone in my life. It’s not my usual reaction to leaving a situation. Usually I’m like – I’m fine on my own, thank you very much! But this time I feel a strange strength, and inside it this very simple, deep, delight in good company. I want that.
I know she’s family but your aunt is a pisstaker. Never volunteer very personal information about yourself that can be used by soon lk her – she’s latched on to it and absolved herself of all responsibility. Subway? If you’re in NY come to BR get together tomorrow
Oh, so wish I could! I’m sure it will be a great event. I’m in San Fran – I was on the BART (looks like a subway to me!)
When I read your posts from square one to square ‘this’ they get so refined and so much more interesting. I would suggest to everybody who’s here to read the first one till this one, in that order, however comforting the last one might be. It’s very interesting and gives an incredable amount of insight of how you, NML, have grown and therefor how any of us can grow. It gives hope and strength to make the journey and not just want to get there in one blink of an eye. That doesn’t work anyhow. I can read your posts with great excitement and feeling finaly understood, BUT, people should read a whole lot more, like I said, from early till now, to truely understand. This is great. Thank you NML, I’m not much of an idolizer (or how you say this) but your posts mean a great deal to me in the long run. In the short they’re just comforting, in the long, they are therapy.
I am stunned continually at the way your posts reflect and tell the story of the exact moments I am going through in my life. Here, you’ve done it again! I JUST sent an email yesterday to explain how my needs were being overlooked but his were top priority, (always have been), and that I am not feeling loved or respected at all. After hitting the send button, I decided that I have had enough of this ‘relationship’ and cut him loose like dead weight, although I did not say as much in the email itself. I did, however, tell him that I am giving him all the time and space he requires to get his ‘stuff’ together, (supposedly he is in the throes of separation yet still living there….yeah, right….), but after I sent the note stating my angst and the life of isolation I have been enduring, (long distance), it hit me that this is not love he is showing me. This is emotional abuse and selfishness. He is emotionally immature, self-centred, unavailable and I am deserving of so much more. I went to counseling today and gained more perspective on how I have carried the guilt and fear of believing I was pushing too hard for my rights, asking to be treated with love and respect, worrying about pushing him away if I make waves by standing up for myself, and I came out feeling absolutely solid about my stating of my needs and my decision FINALLY to let go! He does not know I have taken this new road because I am no longer in contact, as HE has decided it should be so he can work through this supposed separation and have ‘talks’ with her, making sure she understands “why things are the way they are”, as he puts it. Whatever that means. All the while he has been assuring me that he loves me, is coming for me, is not caving, is not changing his mind but will be with me….Um, when? It’s been 3.5 years of ALL TALK NO ACTION. I thank you for your constant stream of most affecting articles. They are always timely and hit the nail on the head. I think I finally got hit on the head, in a good way!! With the utmost admiration! Leslie
“Never negotiate with your boundaries and your self-esteem – you’ll end up talking yourself into a poor relationship … you should be enjoying your relationship not having to construct and direct it.”
Yes! Well said. Many thanks, Natalie.
I need someone to love me and be patient with me so maybe they do too. Plus…what if it’s something wrong with me why they’re disrespecting me?”
The above would be the thing that would suck me in. Because of my low self esteem id assume it must be me ! When I look back at my last relationship now I see so clearly it was he who had the problems and it should have been me who walked out. Now I look back at the others and realise the exact same thing. I have myself to complete morons. Not any more.
I tore myself up for months due to guilt for NOT explaining and just walking. It took me quite a while to realize that that was the best thing I could have done and the walking away really spoke volumes in and of itself. Yes he made me feel guilty, yes he kicked like a child that I was acting crazy, but I’m sure he’s “got it” now. I am not a woman to be messed with.
Oh my, I so needed to read this. All of your posts are awesome, but this one in particular resonates the most for me at the moment.
I wish I read this months ago, even a few weeks ago! It makes perfectly logical sense, so much so, that I feel incredibly daft that I actually thought I was trying to improve communications, when in fact, I was devaluing and disrespecting the both of us. Pretty condescending, actually. Ugh. I’m a bright gal, how could I be so unaware?
I just had to get off my chest one last bit of how I felt about what he did, what happened, looking for answers, etc. No wonder he’s not trying to get a hold of me now. I’m in my 19th day of NC. Almost 3 weeks, yikes! I must admit, I am feeling so sad, and very surprised, that he hasn’t even emailed me. I wouldn’t have responded; I was just hoping he would reach out, and I confess, I wanted to be in a position to be able to be the one to ignore him. Did I mention I’m sad he hasn’t tried to contact me? I feel so undervalued. bah.
And so much regret over these stupid mistakes such as not heeding the many flags. Our friendship could have been left intact. Of this I am sure.
Thank you Natalie, and those of sharing your experiences. I’m feeling quite vulnerable these days. Your strength and experience that it does indeed get better keeps me strong for another day of NC. I know I deserve better, and am taking steps in that direction.
Mango, you’re doing great! Glad you’re bringing the sadness here to share. Keep it up.
Thanks Magnolia. I’m hanging in there…
Natalie, this very thing just came up in a convo on the way home from vacation! My best friend was asking me if I’d heard from my ex-AC and she said, “Ohmygod, remember when he pulled the ‘What did I do?’ and expected YOU to sit there and explain to HIM why you were pissed off by straight up, balls-0ut assholish-ness? Beyond insulting. Still pisses ME off. I don’t know how you didn’t crawl through the phone line and smack him.”
I really loved this article, because it’s classic Natalie No BS 🙂 If someone is a freakin’ adult, you don’t need to sit there and explain to them why bad behavior is bad behavior…they know. If they don’t, they’re a walking Lifetime movie. In any event, NEXT!
Previously guilty of all of the above. I have found not only do watch for red flags code amber alerts in their behavior but also in my own. Example – bad relationship habit – do not speak up and voice opinion instead come up with some rational that might not even be close to the truth or rather in all actuality it may be a “legitimate misunderstanding” that I have turned into some huge head trip. I have learned to speak up and clarify and in most cases with my loved one it is simply a misunderstanding not on the same page or only heard part. Ok no toes stepped on. Communication and clarification rather than speculation and assumptions. Communicate, clarify or curb their choice. I know where I stand and when faced with a choice – I choose me.
Dear Natalie:
Will you marry me?
No, seriously, your writing and wisdom has done such wonders for me. Every post you have is DEAD ON, especially this one.
Trying to “explain” to a grown man why his having a weekly dinner date with his “best friend” ex girlfriend who doesn’t care to know a thing about you and gives you the cold shoulder………….you just have to step outside your body and ask wait…am I really doing this???
Well then I had to explain why I was not insecure, jealous, immature and ‘not european’ enough to understand.
By the way, I’m Canadian and according to my ex, Mr. King Ass Clown Extraordinaire, Europeans are much more advanced and mature in their relationships forming the kind of deep bonds that would make it okay for someone to stay at his ex’s house to 11 oclock “comforting” her with his phone turned off?
Funny how someone like you can out of the UK! If you’re interested in his email address, let me know. He’d be more than willing to enlighten you and ease you out of the dark ages of relationship immaturity!!
😉
xo
Bikinibeach,
I tried to explain why his infidelities hurt, and all I got was a lambasting for being insecure…..I think his exact words (a week after I caught him in the act) were “I’m sick and tired of your insecurities…I’m not going to walk on eggshells!!!”. Meaning: shut up, I’m not finished cheating on you yet.
As for ‘stepping outside your body’….I know exactly what you mean by that.
As usual, an excellent post – thanks. Just one thing – I know you always prefer phone over text and email but I really prefer email to phone calls because I love being able to read and re-read what someone has written to me. My life is quite busy and I really don’t like daily phone conversations but at the end of the day (literally) I can sit down and write something genuine and from the heart. I also respond to people who write well and take the time to put their thoughts and feelings down on paper and to respond to mine too. When it comes to making arrangements, phoning is fine and I wouldn’t go out with a guy I felt uncomfortable phoning. But I’m not sure I agree with the blanket dismissal of emails as indicating a lack of real interest. I am one of those people who are very comfortable sitting in silence with another person – not feeling the need to be constantly filling the space. I like to simply smile and make eye contact sometimes. Both those things are hard on the phone if you’re not naturally a highly chatty person.
raven
email and texting is fine provided it’s not the bulk of the relationship.
I lived with/was married to an EUM for more than 25 years. I always thought that he “just didn’t understand” what he was doing to me. One day, while I was explaining yet again, he said that he knew it would upset me, but he thought it wouldn’t matter that much. That was when I realized — he did understand. And he did care that he hurt me. He just didn’t care “enough.” That hurt, but it was very freeing.
I’ve been out of that marriage for 7 years (the divorce took 2.5 years because he thought the judge would tell me to quit being silly and stay married). For those of you who worry that all potential partners (male or female) are twits, relax. There are good ones out there who will work with you to create great relationships. I met a man of character, who contributes to the community, who gives happily, and who accepts what I have to give. He was heavy, so I think a lot of women ignored him. Their loss.
Don’t spend 25 years explaining yourselves, like I did. They get it. And they may care. They just don’t care “enough.”
thanks for your post. I recently went to marriage counseling (again!) with the EUM I married. This counselor was great & on the 3rd visit said: “this is it. this is who you married. you need to accept this person for who he is & decide that you stay or go.” it was a jolt. i accept that this is who he is, i can’t change him, and i want someone who reciprocates not only with words, but with actions. I’m getting my life together & getting out. thanks for showing that it can be done! 🙂
I like this comment… and yes there are great potential partners out there, lots of them. They are typically not the ones charming all the ladies at the bars nor are they talking to 25 different women online. They are the quiet, unassuming, low key ones that often get passed by and aren’t peacocking for attention from the opposite sex. We all can learn the red flags and be on watch for the twits.. but be optimistic that for every twit there is a great person out there just hoping to meet someone else great.
Akaotter,
So well said and what light bulb moment for you to put all together after 25 years.
And you are so right, people who know how to love, have love to give and want to give it, don’t need to be taught the basics. It is so effortless when you are with someone who gets it.
My husband was like that. We had 14 great years together growing and learning in love. I was prematurely widowed, but I know there are a lot of great people out there…all in good time.
I really can relate to what you said about caring but not caring enough. The whole time I’ve been with my husband, I keep feeling hungry. He doesn’t feed me enough love, care, or respect. The connection and bonding are broken now for me because I see that he only has a certain amount and NO ONE is getting it except maybe his family – and he still doles it out to them like it’s water and they are three days into the Sahara. He just doesn’t have that well in him. I can’t hate him for it. I saw it a long time ago. I just need to leave.
OMG I have so been mulling the very same thing this last month! I said to myself – he has all the power right now, but actually I have the power too. The power to not play the game. In the third week of him not bothering to meet up with me (which sent me into my own private emotional meltdown), he contacted me on the Tuesday, and twice on the Friday, clearly wanting to see me, and I chose not to reply. Then I weakened on the Saturday and sent a cheery chatty text, not mentioning his texts nor offering reasons why I didn’t reply, but suggested we met up that evening. That was a mistake. I’d reclaimed the power, then gave it straight back to him. The problem with being the kind of girl that falls for an EUM is that learning to say no, figuring out what normal healthy boundaries are, having the courage to implement them, and walking away if they don’t step up to the plate is really hard and scary, even though you realise it’s what you SHOULD do for your own self respect. A friend once told me she’d read that when you try to change a pattern of behaviour, it’s a bit like rearranging furniture in your living room. Even though you know the layout is different, you still keep walking into the room the same way, but now you’re bumping into the sofa even though you can see it’s in the way. Apparently it takes 40 days for your mind to break the old habit and become instinctive in adopting the new one. But of course you walk into the room every day. Not so easy to break habits with a man you don’t see as often as your sofa…
Natalie,
when I first found your blog and started reading I had so many OMG moments as you were explaining to me exactly what I was doing in my involvement with the EUM and exactly what he was doing for that matter. I am very thankful to say I have seen the light, especially that these things are wholly action based – that is so spot on. This post reminds me of what I first read of yours about the woman who talks and thinks too much and does nothing – that was me!
This post rightfully re-affirms a similar message and I take comfort (and not a little sense of success) from reading it because it is no longer a light bulb moment for me, just a reminder that I AM doing the right thing with NC – it is something of a delicious irony that for the first time I am communicating the clearest message I ever gave him – through my consistent silence and disappearance! My actions are saying it all for me.
In the first few years, I used to send him great swathes of explanatory prose in emails – telling him what I was unhappy about and why and what I thought he should do about it. He never even responded to most of them and if he did I got at most one short curt sentence. Then I’d cringe and apologise for ‘going off on one’! It made not a hoot of difference… and I kept doing it. I did stop, eventually, realising I may as well talk to a wall and on some level realising I wasn’t going to do anything about it myself so I should just shut up and put up or eff off. So I had not tried to “explain” anything to him for a long time before “the end”.
I knew all along that the reason I never put my foot down with actions was because if I did that it would be over – I wouldn’t see him for dust if I acted like a person with boundaries. It was that simple and I was well aware of it. If I wanted to see him I had to (tacitly) agree to his terms. Not seeing him never seemed like a feasible or do-able option. I tried and failed countless times to show him by not seeing him… I always gave in; he never would, and I knew that well. This is why this part made me laugh – it’s so true:
“Most adults know the fundamental difference between right and wrong, respect and disrespect, boundaries and no boundaries – don’t believe me? Just try doing something to them and you’ll quickly see that knowledge in action”
Spot on.
Well said Fearless. Sometimes we only talk about our boundaries endlessly instead of enforcing them because we know on some level or have been shown they will walk away. I have talked and talked and talked. It never got me anywhere positive. They completely stopped taking me serious. Nat is right, sticking around and over explaining is pointless. They’ve already called your bluff and you showed your hand. They will call your bluff on every turn after that. I went from no boundaries to talking the shite out of them. This post was exactly what I needed to read. Developing all my new boundaries is worthless if all I do is inform someone they are stepping on them and then do nothing but talk it to death. Oh yeah. I remember reading her on BR about how boundaries are for ‘us’ and for our own well being and direction, and not to teach them how to behave. I know I have gotten caught up in using my boundaries as a teaching tool to change them. I was missing the point and it doesn’t work anyway.
By the way, I saw my ex AC today who I have been NC for over a year. It was no big deal! The spell has indeed been broken! Time and NC are healing magic. He no longer looked like the scary devil who could make me cry….just a guy. Ordinary. Nothing special.
Yes, jennynic,
we are not actually fools anymore than he is – there is an awful lot of unspoken “understandings” going on in these relationships. For all the talking and explaining we do as we’ve “got it all sussed” and will now enlighten him (pfft!) how honest are we being actually when we do all this explaining?
We bang on endlessly to him about how bad his behaviour is and what he *should* be doing instead but oddly we never feel the need to spell out to him over and over again just exactly how much bad behaviour *we* will (gladly) tolerate nor do we spell out to him that this is because we lack respect for oursleves (we would rather die than explain that one to him in long emails and letters and and phone calls! Yet we *already* know that he has long since caughtened on to the fact that we are a complete push-over and are silently hoping that he will be merciful and not humiliate us further by explaining that one – TO US!!)
For all our supposedly didactic speeches we already know exactly what HIS boundaries are because if we overstep them he shows us instantly that he knows about boundaries by stopping all contact until we get the message. Trouble is his main boundary is that we are not to have any boundaries!! Having boundaries of your own is to overstep his, so if you want to see him you have to respect his boundaries by not applying any of your own! Twisted or what? The whole thing is a twisted, mangled mess. No wonder we think we are teeting on the edge of sanity with these involvements.
Another thought on this:
Yes, jennynic, what I knew is that I had absolutely NOTHING to negotiate with and that his ‘take it or leave’ attitude was completely non-negotiable. What a terrible, utterly untenable position for anyone to be in.
Fearless, WOW!!! This was me EXACTLY! “I knew all along that the reason I never put my foot down with actions was because if I did that it would be over”. Looking back, I can’t believe how many times I “negotiated” my boundaries just to keep a disrespectful, manipulative, and selfish dipstick. SMH.
Yes, trouble is that I was internalising my “nothing to negotiate with” into ‘I was worthless and hopeless’. I had negotiated away any boundaries that I should have held in place and with them went all my sense of self worth until I felt quite literally powerless and paralysed in the relationship. If anyone here reading this feels that way right now, just steal yourself and stop engaging with him (or her, as applicable)
Explaining to someone how to treat you with the basics of love, care, trust and respect or repeatedly laying out why something doesn’t work for you or is hurtful, is incredibly devaluing.
I have been stuggling still with the last text message (31st of May) it has triggered such a need to call him and re explain that I am sick of and fed up with telling me he is going to call me and he doesn’t call he has just recently restated this I will call you for a chat just the other day again via text.
As soon as I read it I thought no you won’t I have been hearing this in various ways since last August and it has happened ONCE.
Looking back over my journal and other things I have written it is the same problem and I have told him face to face I have e mailed it on more than one occassion I have written it in a letter I have said it via text now that is plenty of times to tell someone if you say something to me then I expect you to follow through on it.
And yet the desire and the need to say it again is still there and I have been in no contact.
Then I struggle with the dilemma that makes me want to be Florence Nightengale and ring him to find out what is wrong with him and why is he feeling down? I feel guilty like I don’t care to find out what is bothering him and if he harms himself how would I live with the fact I couldn’t even ring him.
I was doing well in no contact I was used to him not calling and I stopped doing the leg work and I was moving forward but now I feel snagged by his texts. I have tried to shake them off and move forward again but it is tough. My motive for ringing wouldn’t just be to see how he is either I know that I want to re explain to him the basics of saying something and following through on it. URGH. .. (I already know not much action will result and I will devaluing myself again)
Stay strong, Tulipa!
He’s only telling you he’s down to tug at your heart strings. If he harms himself, you won’t know. And even if you did find out he had, self-harm after a love disappointment is very manipulative, and wouldn’t be your fault anyway. (I say this with my own history of hurting myself to get attention/love when I knew no other way.)
Many men tug at the maternal instinct by playing wounded. Don’t buy in.
Hope you soon get to the point where if he emails, you just delete. No big deal.
Tulipa
Maybe he feels down because he’s a twit who has offended all his friends so they don’t speak to him anymore. If you truly want to be Florence Nightingale … don’t speak to him anymore. When he learns that his disrespectful actions have consequences maybe he’ll change.
Unfortunately, you don’t get to be the beneficiary but that’s how it is for Florence. When the patient gets better he leaves the hospital for the big wide world. He doesn’t need a nurse when he’s healthy.
Thank you both for your replies, very much appreaciated.
I did call him, but I got his answering machine I hung up and thought “what am I doing, contiuning to write the Dynasty drama script”
But he called me and so we spoke, I resisted all urges to tell him off like he was 5 and he said he was remissing the fact he hadn’t called me sooner, I also resisted all urges despite the subtle hints for us to meet up because I am in his area.
Something you said to someone else spoke to me, Grace, and that was dealing with these guys is nothing in comparison to dealing with traumas that have happened in life. That is true concentrating on his texts has been a good deflection from devlving deep into what the real issues are in my life.
It feels shallow to have put so much time into thinking about his text blah blah but so so much easier than looking at myself and the things I have been through.
I also know that I am definately EU and don’t really know how to fix me or to have a healthy relationship so it is simple to use denial and deflection has a coping mechanism and concentrate on him and his bad behaviour.
Tulipa,
Have you sought any sort of counseling?
I have a question?…at this stage of my life, I should have the answer…but since my current relationship I don’t know what to think.
Nat said: “Instead of telling them that you’re better than being in a Friends With Benefits/booty call situation and then continuing to shag them, show them you’re better than this by not participating – upgrading from a casual relationship is exceedingly difficult.” Although I am told how much he loves me, our relationship has not progressed to the next level in 4 years. I am told we are exclusive “now”. In the past that was not the case; He said we were, but we were not (unknown to me at the time). I am not young, and he is even older than I.
So we don’t “participate”, “upgrading is difficult”, where/how do you move from here? How do you convey that “this” is not enough? Do you just come out and say so?
I am such a quandary as to what to do, how to do it, if I should, shouldn’t, etc. After being with him I have more questions than answers-which at this stage of the game I should be VERY secure, yet I am not…..not even close.
Whyme
If he doesn’t love you after four years maybe it’s not going to happen. You’re trying to negotiate this murky relationship into a proper relationship. In negotiations the key principle is this: if the other party doesn’t put it on the table, you can’t negotiate for it.
To be absolutely blunt – it doesn’t matter what you tell him. He doesnt’ care. He wants sex and attention on his terms. Maybe one day he wants a bit more, maybe one day he wants a bit less. Your role in this is to play along. I go further than Nat – I say it’s impossible (especially after four years) to upgrade casual to serious. What Nat means by non-participation is – finish it. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Whyme,
Grace is spot on. Not participating basically means saying “thanks, but no thanks’.
Or, the less polite version of non-participation: “No, what d’you think this is, a knocking shop? Go find some other mug!” 🙂 hee hee!
The point of this post is that it is pointless saying anything else to him because for 1) you may done that already and 2) he already knows he is taking the piss! (He is not a fool – though it’s probable that by now he thinks you are)
The problem is that you have settled for his pish already. He already has the message that this is okay by you (and he’s not wrong, let’s face it!) So, it’s not him who needs to better understand the situation and do something about it; it is you.
If you want him to know that you will not tolerate this rubbish then stop tolerating it. You can’t have it both ways (that’s the bugger here!). You don’t have to say anything to him. Just stop tolerating – stop participating. He’ll get the message.
He is not going to upgrade or promote you now into bona fide girlfriend/wife because you have already shown him that you are the woman who will settle for much less and the woman who puts up with crap – he doesn’t want that for a wife or g/f , if he ever wants one at all! This is all very hard, but it’s true. Cut your losses and ditch the whole thing.
Whyme, Grace is 100% right when she says: “Maybe one day he wants a bit more, maybe one day he wants a bit less. Your role in this is to play along.” I was in a 5 year yo-yo situation where one day I’d be treated like I was in a relationship, so I’d act like I was in a relationship, then when the visit was over (we lived a whole whopping hour apart), it was like I’d ceased to exist! It drove me nuts, so I totally know how you feel. Mine ended up reappearing claiming that he wanted a relationship (he may have for 10 minutes, but I doubt it haha!) and then, of course, the “terms and conditions” changed and I was just supposed to roll with it. These guys are all about everything on their terms. One thing I personally learned from this was that if a relationship falls completely to sh*t because you try and enforce a rational boundary that anyone with decent self esteem would enforce, it is not a relationship worth having! Trust me, you can do so, so much better 🙂
Once again. Thank you. Truly.
I’m quite sure the EUM has something going on with this other woman now. They leave work together and talk for long periods of time throughout the day. And, I’m like WTF? There I am, anger in tow, nothing I can do except….well I’ve started asking myself “what would Natalie do?” And I feel this sort of brief strength roll over me then roll right off. Each day I reexperience hurt. Bringing back all the other times I was “left behind” or someone else was chosen over me and the pain that caused. Feeling as if I’m this defective creature no one evidently wants because if they did, they would not ditch me! Hello!
I can not control him or this new fling. I am probably being a bit rude in not even acknowledging her when she’s around. I have to live with this everyday, it’s in my face and shutting the office door is not an option. Wear earphones? Possibly. I have got to lose this anger! What is underneath is hurt. Remembering wounds from when I was small, when I literally was ditched. One instant I can see what I did that caused it but the other I am clueless other than the person chosen over me was more “charismatic”. This is some deep pain and it keeps attracting the same bull situation over and over again: me feeling abandoned and the other person moving on to someone new (happily?) Sad case. I know a girl who grew up in a dysfunctional home but somehow she managed to stand on her own in relationships and not take anything off men. She’s married now. What the heck is wrong with me?
Color
There’s nothing wrong with you. Iknow a girl who grew up in a dysfunctional home too and is now married. it was my sister. people react to things differently. If I threw you into a class of five year olds you would be STRUCK by how different they all are. Hit each one over the head (I don’t suggest you actually try this) and they’ll react differently. Some will hit you back, some will cry, some will pretend it never happened, some will hate you, some will try to win you over, some will tell their parents, some will deny it happened, some will forget it, some will remember for the rest of their lives, some will wonder what they did to deserve it, some will shrug it off. Regardless, you shouldn’t have hit them in the first place. However they react, the screwup is yours, not theirs.
Chances are, if you were able to re-run your childhood with loving parents you wouldn’t think there was anything wrong with you. But you can’t run that experiment. You take care of yourself in the here and now. Part of that is understanding what makes you tick.
It’s a learning process and we’re all getting there in our own way and our own speed.
to think there is something wrong with you is a “normal” reaction to bad parenting. The children who think it the most are those who’ve been sexually abused and we KNOW that’s not their fault! Even when the abuse wasn’t sexual (physical or emotional – personally, I’ve experienced both and emotional felt worse) it’s still not your fault. it wasn’t because you’re so despicable that an adult three or four times your size was forced to push you around. It makes no logical sense.
My mother grew up in a dysfunctional home, got married and had a child. As far as I know (I’m not speaking with her anymore), she is still married to the same man. The moral of the story? None. Maybe I should mention that this narcissistic, sadistic, insane woman created hell on earth both for her husband and her daughter. My father (whose mother seemed very narcissistic too) became a child abuser himself, probably because it didn’t feel “safe” for him to vent all his anger at his wife. The result is that I’m insanely angry at all of those *!”§$%* in my family.
Colororange, I’m not saying this girl you know is like my mother in any way. I hope not! My only point is that whether people get married (and stay married) or not has nothing to do with their emotional health. Stop beating yourself up for this. You deserve better. You don’t need a man to validate you. You are valuable already.
Hi colororange,
Your post really spoke to me. Here and in your earlier writing you’ve mentioned that these rejections bring you back to earlier feelings from childhood. Nothing’s wrong with you. If your situation is at all like mine, then what is going on now, in your reaction to his involvement with someone else, is that the present situation is causing reactions/feelings in your body that are appropriate to the child who was powerless to change her situation.
No one can stand actually being powerless. But you CAN stand something that feels like being powerless. You’re an adult now, and if you can recognize when you’re feeling “like a child”, then you can begin to hang on to the present moment and not regress. When you’re alone and working on you, maybe you can take some time, allow yourself to feel that feeling and connect it to the childhood memories, and let the feeling run its course as the adult colororange, who has choices and can remove herself from situations, watches and cares for the kid within.
Phew. It’s hard to explain. But basically nothing is wrong with you. This is what happens when we learn, as young people, that we have no power to take ourselves away from harm.
I just want to assure you that if you can “resolve” the initial hurts, giving them the attention that you should have had from caretakers at the time, then in the future these situations with EUMs will not bowl you over so much. You’ll see the exact same behaviour and you will not be terrified of a world of inexplicable rejection.
Nothing is wrong with you, it’s just that being blown off for the latest ‘new’ de jour makes you feel like it.
Realize that this will never change, and as hard as walking away may be there will come a time when you are over it, and will be content again. If you stay, you’ll keep getting your heart ripped out and your self-esteem torn to shreds. Cause there will ALWAYS be somebody new, and she will always be the better option for him.
The thing is everyday I have to see them and hear them. Everyday I get angry and sad again. Everyday. I’m reminded of how he once told me he thought this girl might be crazy. I’m reminded of how he eventually told me he’s not good at relationships and didn’t want one. So now he’s with her?? I think he was telling me a load because that magically all changed in a few months?? I do the whole going back to childhood and assessing where this anger/rejection comes from. I get it. It would not be so hard if I was not around them all the time. It feels like a slap in the face that says I was not good enough. That is how it feels anyway whether it is logical/rational or not. I sit there at work and think to myself I’m glad she has to deal with him now, I deserve better yata yata and it feels like B.S. The reality is he’s with her now and did not want me. And how I’m supposed to feel about that about myself is the issue. How do you feel good about yourself after years of feeling the opposite? Am I the only one that goes through this out there?
No, you aren’t the only one. Rejection is hard on people when it’s done in the kindest, most respectful way. They don’t treat us like people who even count, they reject us as lovers and more significantly as friends – people of value. It’s total, complete, absolute rejection. That’s what makes these people so toxic – our well being is compromised.
Trust that he’s playing her too – he lacks the ability to treat anyone with love, trust, respect, care, concern or regard. It isn’t you – misery is the only relationship skill they have.
Explaining once, fine. Explaining twice, OK it’s second chances. Explaining beyond that and it’s time to get off the crack.
— Yess! I just had this experience tonight with a Mr. Unavailable that I had cut out of my life upon realizing the truth of the situation, but apparently not. The other night he called and I casually invited him to come hang w/ my friends and I who were already out, he ofcourse could give no definite answer for the 100th time. I decided not to go to the place we were to meet up at anyway and texted him, he did not reply. The next day I texted to check if he was ok (rolleyes, he always is, but that guilt crack always says, maybe something is wrong). He answered, said he got the text in the a.m or some crap and I didn’t bother to speak to him after. I had already decided that he was not someone to take seriously and would only talk to him when I felt like but not go out of my way to do so, as he wasn’t an assclown, just not someone I wanted to date seriously and vice-versa.
He texts me tonight acting so hurt that I haven’t spoken to him and I called him immediately to re-explain why I don’t call him a lot because I am tired of feeling like I always initiate things and make more effort and I refuse to continue. He didn’t answer the call! Which sent me into a tailspin! We were texting not 30 seconds ago, and I called twice, and it rang twice and went into voicemail like when you ignore a call. It enraged me so much as it felt so disrespectful and compounded what I had called to explain. Not only does he seem to not care to make an effort, but he has the nerve to be upset when I don’t make an effort, then when I reach out to be heard, he ignores me. I sent a few texts after asking what the explanation was for him not answering since I know he didn’t just die mid-text….no answer.
I just had to vent but am fully relinquishing the crack pipe! I am so glad I have come a long way in terms of not allowing the crack to send me into an impulsive rage of 15 lengthy texts explaining my feelings to someone who doesn’t deserve it or to continue calling or leave a rude voicemail then feel ashamed later. I am glad I also started reading this which speaks EXACTLY to this issue and is empowering me to see the truth versus making excuses and “feeling bad”.
I’ve just GOT to ask you…..is this guy from the US, in a state that starts with an A? Got to be my exAC…..that’s his modus operandi to a T!
It’s so comforting to know that other people have been through the EXACT same experience!
Lol he’s from the U.S. but not an A state. But he travels a lot so who knows lol.The creepy part is that there are SO MANY men like that, they could all pass for each other.
I’m so ashamed that after posting here last, I went into further reexplaining after he stands me up yet again, by not answering calls after we had plans, then calling me the next day to act (unconvincingly at that) like it was my fault and accusing me of being “spiteful” for not getting in touch with him. This is after I called 3 times AND left a voicemail (which I never do) so he is lying through his teeth! When I reexplained that he has stood me up SEVERAL times and I did not stand him up, but even if I did, that was once versus his hundreds…he had the audacity to state that it didn’t matter how many times he did it as it was not a race. OMG!!! WTF?!!! Not only does he take no responsibility, he admits he does it and doesn’t care, so long as I don’t do it too.
That one blew me out of the water and made me realize how much of a crack addict I am to put up with someone like this and that it is going to take some work to truly be free of these habits. However, I am happy to say that after that conversation in which he insulted my intelligence and totally disrespected me to the core by LYING and accusing me of all sorts of ill, when I’ve done nothing more than be at his beck and call…smh. I had enough and lost ALL desire, and hope. The illusion fell apart completely and I saw him as the toad with a crown he really is, versus the illusion I had of him being a prince. He literally sickens me now and the fantasies I entertained of us before are non-existent as he is shining in all his toady glory *pukes*
*FLUSSSSH*
Now to the business of internalizing new positive beliefs and self love that allow me to not attract and put up with such assclowns (he has been relegated to that status now, as before I thought he was a benign EUM, but now I see his manipulative assclown side). I know these things intellectually but the business of making it a habit in the face of real life temptations is another matter. I was disappointed and ashamed at how quickly my resolve could be broken down, it’s not gonna happen again with him as I have truly lost ALL desire for him but can’t wait until NO assclown or EUM even stands a chance with me.
“I’ll trade you some sex, a massive ego stroke and a blind eye if you can give me a semblance of a relationship and some validation”.
Truly one of your best Natalie. Every word is the truth, no matter how hard it might be to hear. This was me to a degree I am now ashamed to say. I thought I could change him. I thought I could point out how hurtful and disrespectful he was and he would change and everything would be fine. Talk about delusional.
I saw first hand the other day what a real healthy relationship looks like. I was upset with a friend over something and told her. She told me how she saw the situation. We both agreed that we had misinterpretted some things. We both apologized sincerely and profusely and we are better stronger friends for it. That’s how adults behave. That’s an equal relationship. We both cared enough about the other to hear each other and work it out.
Trying to teach an assclown that I don’t like to be kept waiting over an hour because its disrespectful was a waste of my breath. That he did it over and over and refused to apologize says it all. That I didn’t walk away told him, just as clearly, that while I might bitch and moan, I wasn’t going to go anywhere and would, in fact, probably put up with even worse if he wanted to dish it out.
I have known men (and women…and me) to be momentarily oblivious to how their actions are being seen by others. Usually, pointing it out solicits a quick apology and an attempt to do better. If you point it out and not only do they not care or apologize, run! It will never get better. You will never teach this old assclown new tricks. You are just destroying yourself. I learned that the very hard way.
“Explaining the crappola out of yourself is like negotiating with your boundaries and self-esteem and bargaining. “I’ll trade you some sex, a massive ego stroke and a blind eye if you can give me a semblance of a relationship and some validation”.
— So true! I am so glad to have read this. Rome wasn’t built in a day and every time I think I have “arrived” the Universe seems to throw some dubious scenario my way to show me my TRUE level of growth. It’s one thing to read stuff and theoretically feel empowered, but it is another to actually enact what you learn. My run-in with Mr. Unavailable tonight brought up this issue for me to realize I still engage in this feeling of needing to explain. It is coupled with that guilt of “what if” and feeling like well if I’ve explained 100 times, at least I can walk away knowing I tried *roll eyes*….but every sentiment about not needing 20 versus 19 tears to get your point across is so true!
If I have had an in depth convo ONCE fully citing things that upset me and someone continues doing those very things, they are just plain rude or dense…and neither is my problem to fix. I would be dense too to continue trying.
I have calmed down significantly since my earlier run in that had me seeing red and realize: we’re not in a relationship, I wanted a friendship and I like some of his qualities but that may not be possible either right now since what he does still bothers me, it makes no sense to stress myself explaining, re-explaining and putting him on trial but still continue engaging him when NOTHING changes. I have to see the foolishness for what it is, accept that it’s his foolishness that doesn’t work for me and LEAVE IT ALONE! For good…and not rehash things when I think he is more receptive. Just leave it be permanently.
‘A mutual relationship where you share similar values means it won’t be like one of you is speaking French and the other is speaking Chinese but both assuming you’re speaking the same language.’
I love this. Only in my case I was speaking English and trying to make sense of Neanderthal.
I have been there, explaining and re-explaining. To an outsider, this may seem weak, but at the time I felt like the strong one in the relationship. This was my undoing. If I’d thought I was being badly treated and that the other party was aware of what they were doing I’d have left.
But emotionally immature man/child types can make you feel like you’re the strong one (in the emotional arena) and they’re just hopeless and need help and any hurt caused is inadvertent. It was only long after I’d finally had enough and left that I realised this was probably just a ploy that worked with his mother when he was small and that he’d been using ever since.
I wonder if this is an angle you could write about sometime, Natalie (if you haven’t already) – that you may not even recognise that you are allowing someone to treat you badly because you think you’re the strong one holding things together.
I don’t put up with bad behaviour from anyone, but because this person seemed so confused (and so kind and gentle in many ways) I stayed. It wasn’t til it was ending that my mother said, to help me carry through with it, ‘Your Dad has been very upset that you’ve allowed yourself to be treated in this way.’
I was shocked. As I said, I thought I was being strong, putting up with the behaviour of a slightly messed up person, helping them to change. I had no idea that other people were seeing it so differently. ‘I thought you were becoming downtrodden,’ said a friend.
Breaking up was devastating at the time. Then I found Baggage Reclaim and I started to understand what had been going on. I have a folder on my computer called ‘Natalie the Genius.’
Thanks Natalie. You’re a life-saver.
This was my experience, almost exactly. Felt I could manage being treated poorly. Almost found it easier, in a way, to be the moral guide (a form of EU behaviour, I now believe). But, even saw how he was also this irritable, sooky baby with his mother, and somehow did not think I had a right to bail. BAD.
Hi Free– I think a lot of these men have a victim mentality, and those of us prone to such things end up over empathizing and taking care of them. Unfortunately, with everyone focusing on poor him, there’s no one left to take care of our own well being!
I also know the false sense of strength you mention– because he was soo messed up and I had all the answers about what he could do to improve his situation (and our relationship) I somehow felt like the more together/in control person in the dynamic.
But I wasn’t. Being a victim or a “savior” obscures one’s role in any pattern, any problem, any relationship. My ex was suffering so, and I felt very bad for him so I put my needs aside as I didn’t want to add to his troubles. This removed his responsibility as my partner to reciprocate the care and respect he received, AND my responsibility for continuing to listen to his problems and provide support while my own needs were being sidelined. Finding a thousand and one ways to discuss this basic imbalance was a giant waste of time– what I needed to do was cut contact and focus on learning to prioritize and value myself more!
Another spot on post !! When I think back on some of my past reactions / behaviour with the EUM ..but now with the benefit of my BR specs on…its astounding what he got away with . I remember him telling me at the beginning that ” he didn’t understand women at all..as they all end up a bit psycho when you get to know them ” of course I murmured my understanding and of course assured him I was different ! ..what I see now is that he obviously had no insight that maybe it was his behaviour that caused woman to feel a bit crazy !.that’s the nature of assclowns their behaviour is so outside of our rationale from the full on hot…to feeling like you’re something they wiped off their shoe !! …its enough to make the sanest of us act I little crazy.
When explaining/ re explaining why it wasn’t ok to break a date five mins before / disappear for 5 days..etc…he would look at me a little puzzled..then with a straight face ask if it was my ” time of the month ” !!! And I would do a quick calculation and say yes it probably was ..sorry…thank goodness he would say…thought you were going to do a crazy…but its your hormones….say what …I am so cross with that girl when looking back.
@fitnessfreak
OMG! That sounds exactly like my exEUM. Our relationship started off fun, spontaneous, and romantic. Well, after a few months the dynamics changed and every time he did something wrong I ended up apologizing!! Why is that?
I soooooo relate to this post!
I wish I found it a year ago. I’ve been NC for a few months now and have to say, I’ve rely enjoyed no one pushing my boundaries or having to explain my feelings to an EUM.
Also recently, I’ve switched from text chatting with people, to texting to make an arranement to meet up and that’s it.
Also, since no longer spending my time trying to figure out an EUM’s next move. It has freed up my brain space and I’ve been mastering different computer programs instead. His last ‘i miss you’ text to me, which I ignored, helped me go from angry to indifferent. It felt like it restored a bit of dignity, but I’ll leave it at that. There is no room for discussions, the door is firmly shut and the forgiving negotiating lady has left the building. Now it’s just mutual respect with people that
treat me well. It’s so free-ing.
Yikes. I still cringe (used to be a sadder response) when I think of the AC making comments along the lines of, ‘You really don’t mind whether you look good or not, do you?’ and me not just giving him the bird and burning off. I can see it now – I was emotionally frozen because he had been so perfectly behaved in first few months. I have been far swifter and more efficient with unsuitable guys since then. But, yes, Nat, that’s the take-home: basic manners and fundamental kindess should be ENTRY-LEVEL STUFF. (New man = we have had a couple of short ‘when I said this, I meant/thought this’ chats, but otherwise, just getting on with enjoying the stuff beyond entry-level requirements.)
Elle – the question I keep coming back to is – was he so well behaved in the beginning. Having dissected the crap out of the relationship with the AC/narc, I understand it clearly now. But what I can’t quite get my head around was the beginning. Was he really so well behaved or was I so hopeful and deluded and desperate that I overlooked a lot of crap? I get that everyone is well behaved in the beginning and if you made me testify in court, I would swear that in the beginning, he really wanted to be there and seemed into the relationship but then I began to get signs he didn’t and I ignored them. Given how it all came apart and that I have accepted that he never really cared about me, he was just responding to positive ego stroking, I still have to go back and question the beginning – was it real (or as real as an assclown can be) or was I just delusional? At the time and since, I feel it was real but I am not sure how much I trust myself anymore, given how badly I let myself be fooled. Was yours “real” at the beginning or was it just wishful thinking on both your parts?
Debra,
I remember in first couple of months, really thinking that he was the best b/f I ever had. It was like that right up until the SECOND that it wasn’t. Out of the blue, out of nowhere, no signs, no nothing – boom! – the descent into hell began, and like an idiot I rode it ALL THE WAY DOWN.
He was always exactly what he ended up being. My guess is that they don’t have much capacity for caring – and certainly not in any way that is meaningful to us. Given that, whether or not it was ‘real’ for him is a moot point.
Debra, the answer is, it was both – my high hopes and his good, encouraging behaviour (possibly because there was no reality early days, but almost certainly hopeful too). I definitely transferred trust I had in previous relationships to someone without any real discovery period. Once I saw that the ex had certain qualities I really wanted (looks, humour, wit, a vast collection of books, energy and a sense of adventure and purpose), I presumed he had other qualities that are required for a healthy relationship. It was desire, hope, and a dash of hero-worshipping, along with the fact that I am, by nature, pretty open, generous, and excited by people. But do I think he was ever really with me? He would say he was, and I am sure there were moments when he felt that, or hoped that. But, with time, I can see he was guarded, even quite petrified, from the start. In any case, Debra, it’s very common for both people to have high hopes and then for it to not work out when things should move the next stage. A person’s later, bad behaviour does not mean that their earlier behaviour was not characterised by hopefulness. You probably weren’t being completely blind and naive with your AC at the start. Even if you were, the truth is, it’s so very hard to know what to look for in someone at the beginning. The human brain does not operate like a series of snapshots for analysis. It generalises, fills in gaps, finds patterns. Don’t be hard on yourself. You will know better next time. I can assure you, I still have mini freak-outs about being “fooled”, but I keep going back to the facts: 1) Just bad luck that I came across someone who was not entirely honourable; 2) If not bad luck, it was related to a crappy living/work situation I was in (and no longer in) – ie keenly wanted a relationship; 3) My life is rad now, so I don’t have to worry about being fooled or floored by anyone. Good luck! xx
During my first (and only) long relationship ten years ago, whenever my BF treated me badly (such as ridiculing me for my nighttime anxieties or smashing down the phone receiver and refusing to talk to me for several days after I had talked and cried for too long about my fears and anxieties), I automatically assumed that what I did was the reason for his behavior. I desperately apologized for everything I might have done to cause this, explained to him that I had a difficult childhood and was really trying to improve, and begged him to give me a little more “leeway” until I succeeded.
Until very recently, this sounded to me as if I was the AC in this relationship, while he was a truly fantastic guy. But I guess this wasn’t the case, although I was certainly extremly EUW and not at all ready for a healthy relationship. I tried to get from him what I hadn’t gotten from my mother (which led to quite narcissistic behavior from my side), all the while allowing him to treat me the same way she did.
Finally, an issue that’s not been a major one for me. 😐
I hate repeating myself, so I truly believe in actions speaking louder than words. In my last relationship (which was actually decent), when we were getting serious, he mistakenly sent me a text that was meant for his best friend. In it, he used the b-word for me as a “term of endearment”.
Anyone who knows me well, knows that while I have a sailor mouth, I do NOT tolerate anyone calling me a b—-, nor do I use it towards anyone as a “term of endearment” or otherwise. (If I call someone a b—-, I must be infuriated to the point of no return. That’s how much I hate it.) If I remember correctly (this was a while ago), I’d told him about my hate of the word. I just so happened to be at his house when he sent it. I showed him the text, he looked like a deer caught in headlights, and I told him “Take me BACK to my hotel room NOW.” (As this was a test stage, I didn’t sleep at his house and he didn’t sleep in my hotel room.)
“But (insert government name here), wait. I didn’t mean it like that.”
Me: “Take me back NOW.”
“Let me explain.”
Me: “Take me back NOW.”
He dropped me off and, on the way to my hotel, he wanted me to speak but I refused. I got out of the car & walked away. By nighttime, we were alright, but not before we discussed it once AND ONLY ONCE. It was never an issue after that. He never used that word to speak about me again and even educated a few of his friends.
I did all that rambling to say that I don’t have time to explain anything. If you wanna treat me with blatant disrespect, I walk. No talking, no ifs, ands or buts. I don’t have time.
All of this is so true, and very much tied in to self-esteem. You have to feel pretty good about yourself to send him on his way if he’s not giving you what you need. I think a lot of us engage in the convolutions because we worry that if we let this one go, we won’t get another chance with anyone decent.
I learned this lesson the hard way with my first boyfriend, the first guy to ever give me any attention. I put up with all kinds of crap because I was pretty sure that he was some kind of anomaly, and that no one else would ever want me. Once I started getting attention from other, nicer men, I became less desperate, and better able to let him go.
Beyond that, the key really is to be okay with being alone sometimes. Even if there aren’t any other men out there right now, you should still be comfortable with being single, rather than begging from crumbs from a jerk who gives you nothing.
Nail on the head Christina. I was a little different in that I didn’t think no one else would ever want me, it was that I had to have “him”. Pure pedastal mentality. I didn’t have much self esteem but I had been back and forth enough times to finally walk. The learning to be by myself, to clear the validation issues in my head, to be alone and be happy… that was what brought me self esteem and knocked down that pedastal. Really shattered it. Desperation be gone… hello the many people out there that will happily give us the respect and love we so much deserve.
I have been guilty of explaining and re-explaining myself when I felt that I wasn’t being treated respectfully in the relationship. My last ex would listen and make an effort to adapt his behavior for the good of the relationship (95% of the time). That should me that he cared. He still got tired of me repeating myself though. In the past, when I would explain and re-explain myself, I would hear, variations of: “You’re just overreacting.” Or rather than addressing the problem, I would just get excuses as to why they couldn’t or didn’t want to change their behavior. I’m older and wiser now. So, I now show by my actions – shutting up and disengaging myself from the relationship – when I am treated in a disrespectful manner, and follow the advice of my late mom who said, “People can only treat you the way in which you let them.” and Maya Angelou who said, “When someone shows you who they are the first time, BELIEVE them.”
I think that if you love yourself, live a full and satisfying life apart from a man, then you will be less inclined to put up with bull crap from one who’s not treating you the way in which you deserve to be treated. That old Staple Singer’s song, “Respect Yourself,” comes to mind. Particularly these words: “If you don’t respect yourself, ain’t nobody gonna give a hoot for you.”
It’s weird how this article covers the basics that everyone should already know – and I did not know them! As I read this, I was nodding my head in agreement and cringing at how closely it hit the mark with me. Constantly getting this guy to UNDERSTAND. Why did I think that I needed to explain the very BASICS of communication, respect and life to a 30-something year old man? I’m not sure what I thought I would even get out of it …
Let me say that trying to raise an adult from the ground up is exhausting! Children will at least listen. Folks that are set in their ways – are just set in their ways, period. Maybe there was a part of me that just could not believe it was possible for a seemingly intelligent adult male to have no relationship skills at all. Well, it does still amaze me.
I am happy to say that I’m finding a sense of PEACE about myself now. I do not feel like I am struggling anymore – in anything. I am grateful every day for the good things that I have in my life – the good people. I don’t want to play doormat anymore to anybody. It is scary at first, but really feels good to stand up for myself for the first time in my life. 🙂
@ Tulipa
stay strong
if you listen to your gut i guess you know you set your self out there for pain if you answer texts or whatever
anytime again we WANT badly to believe them……funny and naive arent we?
if they would truely love us the way we would want to be loved by them
they WOULD show by their actions and do anything they can to be with us…….
but we only see that they make promises and put some lousy words in some lousy texts JUST to not cut the bonds completely and to have control over us…….
be strong and let go
I had to re-read this more than once, because light bulbs kept popping off in my head. So many times, I explained to my EUM what was wrong with our relationship and what he should be doing instead. But he would look at me, sometimes puzzled or angry, and answer he couldn’t see what was wrong and why I keep harping on it. He would even say that my expectations were more than he could give. My expectations like he should call me sometimes instead of me always calling him. Expectations like not disappearing for weeks at a time, emailing or texting instead of calling or visiting, or not showing up when he said he would. I would try everyway to get him to understand why our relationship was frustrating to me. Yet he never seemed to understand what or why I needed more, even as he said he loved me. I pointed out how other couples and our friends, who were together, saw and were with each other often and not disappearing. And he would always answer, “Well, that’s them, not me.” As if, they were the odd ones. I think he knows he is a EUM because he would also say he couldn’t give any more. Stupid me would deny his feelings and just insist he just needed to try and give more. I would cry, demand, beg, be silly or play the “poor me-you don’t love me” role, in hopes of getting him to change. I thought he just didn’t get it. But it was I, who didn’t.
Nat, I wish I had found your blog earlier. Last summer I was a basket case crying that after more than a year with this guy; our relationship hadn’t progressed anywhere. I was in so much pain then trying to get him to change and he wouldn’t. Now I know he never will. I wanted him so bad; I couldn’t see the red flags at all. As I am trying to keep my pain at bay with NC, I find I am in just as much pain, but something is different for me this time. I don’t know, but maybe I might just make it.
Vanja, yes!! You will make it! Just keep telling yourself every hour of every day that you are fabulous – with or without him (or any man), you are now and will always be fabulous. Drown out all other negative thoughts in favour of that one – let that thought always be the winner – and believe it, because you are fabulous!
Fearless,
Thank you again for your wise and encouraging words. You really don’t know that you and Nat keep me going. I don’t know sometimes a particular day or night is harder than the another. But reading Nat’s posts, your comments and others keep me from screaming and running through the house losing my mind. I can’t even explain why I can want something so bad that was never a real. Something you kept trying to get a man to be a part of and he never was. The relationship was the idea in my mind but it was never realized. I’m trying not to count the NC days because it reminds me of our last encounter and keeps him in my mind. I even gave my personal phone to my sister so I wouldn’t sneak a peek.
Nat: I just want to say again, you are saving my life!
Slightly off topic…but re my brand new BR specs that I swapped the rose tinted spectacles for..they affect how I see lots of things now …has anyone seen the new movie Bridesmaids ?….. too funny !!! But instead of 3D I was watching it in BR specs….and I found myself wanting to scream at poor Annie…. he’s a total King assclown…Run for your life ..don’t even stop to pick up your knickers …
New BR way off thinking seems to slip in when you are least expecting 🙂
Infact …and heres bringing it back to topic ( I hope ) …when I’m sat down with a friend , glass of wine , whilst she rehashes how she has explained / re explained to her current AC why he should change….what shall I do ? , next tactic, next gameplan ? New underwear …our conversations are much swifter now ..pre. BR …I would have been trying to help us both work out our next move ( yawn ) ….and exhausting …easier answers now….FLUSH !!!!
This is a great post! Thank you, Natalie. I used to think that explaining myself and expressing how I felt over mistreatment/being infinitely stood up, would have put myself in a favorable light with my ex-EUM. The most reassuring reply I ever got was a sms saying “I promise I’ll try to be better” but often times, there’d be no response and I would wonder whether I’d put him off with my “tirades”, and whether I was just overreacting.
I do appreciate how you reinforce the necessity of communicating through actions, not going through endless verbal negotiations and hence putting the power back into our hands. This is something I have had trouble maintaining, 8 months down the road after my resolve to put an end to my situation and having met a wonderful, loving partner in the meantime. Frankly, I would prefer if my ex-EUM could be upfront and communicative, but I still feel that I want to preserve whatever vestiges of contact there is left. I still don’t feel ready to reach a point in which I can communicate my unhappiness– through ignoring his smses (of “I miss you”s masquerading as a call for attention), which seems to be the best solution. I did have a hard look at myself and realized that my boundaries were practically non-existent, in a sense, these have to be imposed internally, as no one else can set them in place for me.
JS: Might be missing some crucial details here, and obviously don’t want you to feel unfairly judged, but I would have thought there wouldn’t even be an issue of communicating with the ex about your unhappiness at all and even worrying about his communication and emotional habits, rather expressing your dissatisfaction with how he treated you (and continues to treat you), your respect for your new, loving partner (who deserves to have your full attention and energy or else you should end it), and your resolve to surround yourself with people who have the same values as you.
Don’t get me wrong, these things can be difficult. But we also make them more difficult than they need to be. Nothing good can come from you receiving, let alone emotionally engaging with, his small efforts at getting you to tell him he’s a good guy (which is what he is essentially doing by texting you). It suggests a ridiculously-sized ego (his), and also that he doesn’t respect the fact that you’re with someone else now (something you need to take the lead on). It’s very easy to send intermittent lovey-dovey texts, far harder to be consistently present and caring. He’s showing you what he is capable of, so there’s no point even wishing he could be better – beyond avoiding your current relationship or the chance of being loved and content.
Excellent post as usual Natalie and the comments are so very comforting. In my previous relationships and marriages, I would end up explaining myself so many times, we would just number the convos. Convo #1: Don’t say we are going to do something this weekend and then leave me hanging until Saturday morning. Convo#2: Don’t invite me to an event and then spend the entire evening chatting up another woman. Convo #3: Don’t try to slot me into your busy schedule. If you are too busy, be busy and leave me alone. God, it goes on and on and on. You are all right, by the third explanation of the same problem, it isn’t going to get better in fact it usually gets worse. I didn’t think I was guilty of the woman who talks to much syndrome until I read this post. Gracious, can I talk but seldom did I seem to be able to walk until I was sick and tired of being sick and tired.
Which brings me to a question and any insights would be appreciated: After a billion or so explanations (no power points though), when they realized I really was going to bail, suddenly they “got it”. Of course by that point, it was too little too late for me. Additionally, it would make me even angrier that after X number of years of explaining, they could actually treat me with respect. Is there a too little too late syndrome with these AC’s and EU folks?
Thanks all. I again thought that raising a husband or BF was what one had to do.
runnergirl – I am not convinced that people who only behave well (or see the righteousness of behaving well) when given their marching orders are likely to be able to keep that up. Sure, it’s frustrating that they seem to get it only when you’re exhausted and emotionally detached, but don’t you think it suggests that they’re probably EUs and require the pull-away (coldness) to step-up and be decent? That is not sustainable, so I wouldn’t get hung-up on any of that. Don’t worry.
Did you really have numbers? That’s too tragi-comedy! I am trying to picture how that would go – Him: What’s wrong now? You: Oh, you know. Conversation #2. Him: Her? I barely spent ten minutes with her!
Runner,
You recken they actually got it, or were just bullshitting for a while to keep you on side?
Runnergirl,
I can absolutely relate. Had similar convos all along. 1. You repeatedly seeing your ex girlfriend for drinks one to one till wee hours of the morning is disrespectful to me. 2. You having lunch with me while whole time turned towards a woman at the next table exchanging interested looks is one shitty behaviour. 3. Don`t tell me you want to desperately be with me but have a problem turning up, because the pub calls (every day).
I re-explained more times than I care to admit, and as replies got a selection of: denying, lies- sometimes a few different ones to the same story, accusations of being wrong, seeing things, being needy, controlling, demanding, having trust issues, followed by sort of reluctant agreement to change the behaviour for me, not because it`s plain wrong or threats that our relationship will be over because I am the one with problems.
When I walked` and I did several times he`d “get it”…… for around two weeks, which seemed to be his limit. I sucked it and seen so many times I can confidently say there will not ever be a permanent change, just a temporary one. The people who don`t get things after one explanation will only up their game according to need. The respect you were getting at the end would probably not have lasted, it didn`t in my situation, because they get you back, and will put you right back where they want you. The only way to have a lasting respect is to have it from yourself and is to leave for good, which I eventually did. The too little too late is definitely a feeling you will get when with an AC or EUm. And for me, I hope that if I find myself in need to have these type of convos with a man again, it will only be the case of TOO LITTLE – FLUSH!!!!!!!!
Sushi and all,
I think you are right. They were bullshitting in the end but it is infuriating that they actually could do “it” even for a short time. And I used to do the suck and see many times before I got to the end of my rope.
Magnolia that is precisely how the convos would go. If you number the convos, it shortens the time you have to spend explaining!
Never again…thanks to Natalie and you all. Dear Lord.
What a great post! truly, just reinforced my decision of leaving my boyfriend, which was such an incredibly hard to make because we are having a baby together. But I couldn’t handle any more how I spent my life explaining to him how his actions hurt me. This was prior to pregnancy and during. Why was I having to explain thathe shouldn’t be out drinking til 2 a.m. with his phone off, especially with a girlfriend who is 6 months pregnant and waiting at home. I shouldn’ve have to explain that I don’t want him to call me horrible names when we are fighting or to keep me waiting at parties and functions, because he isn’t ready to go or finishing partying and too bad that I am. Why do i have to explain to this man that flirting, being overly affectionate and going dancing with a women he just met while on a work trip, is not OK?
And with a hundreds of examples of him devaluing me, it’s fascinating to see that int he end, he takes to responsiblity and blames me for everything. I’m insecure, not open minded enough, i’m trying to control him … he thought i was “cooler” then turns out I am. Yes, in all this, our problems are my fault for not accepting and loving all of him. WOW.
I am still trying to process everything, and it has only been a month since i moved out. I struggle with self-esteem issues and can’t help that somehow i was the one who provoked and failed us. Plus, he will always say that I broke up our new family, but I didn’t really feel like i had much choice.
Anyways, Natalie thank you for your wonderful post! I come here and read daily. Helps me get through the weak moments where i feel like i’ve ruined my life. But no, i think i may have saved it. Still trying to figure it all out. Thanks!!
Shabby Lucy,
You definitely saved your life. What a courageous move you’re making. That is no easy decision when you’re pregnant, but it seems like you see the writing on the wall and are getting out before it gets worse. And the myth that everything will sort its self out when the baby comes is the farthest thing from the truth…as lovely as having a baby is, it tests the relationship to the max. If couples don’t have a solid footing before the baby comes, it is unlikely they will have one after.
Go with your gut, dig deep….and remember all we need resides within us.
Good luck
Thanks Lily! I appreciate the encouragement. 🙂
My gut has been telling me that this relationship wasn’t right for a while, much before pregnancy. His behavior once i got pregnant and seeing how it didn’t really change. Just kinda sealed the deal for me.
Cheers ladies!!
OMG. Busted. Yup… I am one of the ladies who actually did a chart. LOL. I knew at the time when I did it was crazy. I did a timeline of our relationship by date, with major actions/outcomes. There was no blame or explaining attached just X date = Y behaviour. And yes, ladies, I sent it to him. Only to be met with dead silence. Ha ha ha. However… as seemingly pointless and ridiculous an exercise as it was, I did gain two things from doing it. The first was utter clarity as to what was really going on in black and white, without excuses or rationale attached to it. Once I actually saw it I finally woke up and that was pretty much it for me. I was done. The second thing I gained from it is I actually laugh my head off every time I think about having done that. It was the first time I ever applied my strategic career-based skills to a relationship but it worked (next time I wouldn’t send it to him though). LOL!
Excellent post! I went into most conflicts with my ex thinking “How can I soften the blow of this and make him feel better about himself?” rather than “What is really going to work for me to make this relationship work?” I basically communicated that I was willing to do all the work and not let him feel bad for making me feel like crap. This makes me think back to a conversation we had a few months into dating where he said “Sometimes a woman can change a man…” That statment has come back to haunt me. Knowing what I know about him now, he was basically saying that if I was “good” enough or “strong” enough, I would get him to morph into something he wasn’t, without having to put the time and effort into looking at himself. He just kept upping his standards of what “good” or “strong” was with his ridiculous behavior until I was talking myself in circles. It was a no win situation. I certainly feel like a winner now that it’s over, though.
Will I ever learn? After many months of NC, I have been in contact with the MM. He called me last month when he was in town, I had plans and did not jump to see him, but we made plans to get together this month. He even called and spoke to me on the phone a couple of times for a couple of hours. Wow! What a direction towards a commitment! (sarcasm). Well being the little daddy damaged girl I am these “crumbs” made me feel that he was turning a corner, and since it has been a while since I have had these feelings for someone for some reason I want to see him. My pattern is sometimes I am strong with men and sometimes I am not, I do not have a type, I have no trouble meeting men, but from my experiences I am gun-shy and have a hard time meeting men I like. Well anyway, I have agreed o meet him although now he is 98% sure he can meet me, where a couple of weeks ago he was soooo looking forward to it. I was so looking forward to this for weeks, but now I am getting that sick feeling in my stomach knowing that I will be let down. It feels like when you get motion sickness on a roller coaster. I feel stupid and weak telling him how he makes me feel, don’t want to cry in front of him. I asked him to leave me alone a long time ago, and he persisted. I know I am as much to blame as him, and need to get back on the wagon. I need the strength to go NC once and for all, no matter how hard he begs. I may be off topic, but I need to vent before I get that phone call tomorrow. And I feel like all you girls know where I am coming from. And yes Natalie, you are a genius!
Nevertoolate: hope the phone call didn’t happen! Hope you decided not to see him. You sound so unhappy in this post; all related to the confusion and guilt around being involved with this person. Stay out of his toxic cloud and in your own clear air.
This post is spot on. On one of the big talks with the ex-AC I had a notepaper in my back pocket of all the points I wanted to make.
I also made long lists of pros and cons about the relationship FOR MYSELF. In hindsight, I want to laugh (tenderly) at my poor self! Trying to argue or convince myself into staying in this relationship!? Trying to negotiate with myself why I should put up just a BIT longer with his BS?!
I should have known that so much self-convincing ought not to have been necessary!
I still have some work to do re meaning what I say. My relative’s husband has a friend who is my age who keeps coming over to the house. The first thing he said upon meeting me was how beautiful I was, and kept it up, with great exclamations, until I told him gently, when were alone, to lay off. No explanations. He got it.
Gosh I liked the attention! He is very good looking. But the guy is still married (separated), in touch with an ex re their young daughter, alcoholic, a drug abuser, and currently living in a halfway house. I mean, hello. Even though I have no delusions that I would want to date him, I find myself wanting to go and start “explaining” to him what he would have to do to be able to be with a woman like me (since has has openly asked). You know, just sit down and have a little conversation about how he’s going to kick his addictions and tidy things up with the wife. Simply for the attention. No, no, no.
So this is Magnolia heading to another room in the house if handsome halfway house dude shows up at the door. I see how easy it would be to make my first declaration of my boundary (lay off the come-ons, buddy) totally worthless if I show any signs of liking his attention. This is tough stuff, Natalie! Feels like I may wait forever for the attentions of someone decent!
@ Annied
lol i had to laugh because i tried to teach a 54 year old guy how to treat me with respect…………
They are who they are and they behave how they want
When i talked to my EUMM for the last time i found
out he would go back in his marriage……..well fine with me finally clear decisions……..BUT in this talk he still said its here with me where he wants to be…….grrrrrrrrrrr inside of me i was so angry i thought cant you even now show respect to her and me……….still trying to never get out of the picture…..just so very selfish……..anyway i show respect to myself now and stay away from him and his toxic sweet words
It’s amazing to me how much all of us seem to have in common – like CREEPY-IN-COMMON!
This particular article is so true. I’m so done explaining $hiz….
After reading this website I’ve begun to believe that there is a creepy universal “playbook” out there that all men have been reading about how to mess with women.
Oh yeah – here’s a link to just one of those creepy online “man-zines” that dole out the WORST advice to men and most of the stuff we end up here dealing with.
http://www.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith_150/152b_dating_advice.html
#6 especially = Blech. Yuck. Puke.
I can’t believe there will be men out there that will actually take this advice
Oh, I believe it! My ex-AC actually said to me, “I usually wait to have sex with a girl. It makes her want it more.” I think he must have gotten that advice from this same website. In fact, he did some of the other stuff on that list, too.
Oh yeah, my ex accused me of “sexual blackmailing” when I couldn’t stand sleeping with him anymore. I didn’t understand my behavior either at that time (I was very young), but only knew that sex reminded me more and more of my childhood and was somehow a very, very awful thing. I felt guilty.
Well, my childhood memories are still blurred, but I think my parents (or someone else in my family, for that matter) probably did something despicable to me as a child.
“Sexual blackmailing”. Oh dear.
Btw, I cannot even bring myself to read this list mentioned above in its entirety. It’s just so disgusting. Frankly, it’s outright inhuman. I guess some centuries ago, people would have written similar stuff about how to treat one’s slaves. I’m particularly referring to the parts where legitimate resistance is being depicted as insanity/irrational behavior. Luckily, us women aren’t slaves and can simply walk away. We always need to remember that.
Yeah, there are bad people out there. But to sell this assholery as “wise advice”? Who do those men think they are?
OMG! The photograph on that site looks like he’s about to bite her face and leave two holes in it! (like our BR lady who posted same). And she looks as if she’s anticipating it!
The advice about keeping a fallback girl just about says it all (he should always have ‘a spare one in the barn’, it says, so he always has somewhere else to go for sex…) It’s so pathetic. But should be another wakeup call for some of us.
Loved the lastminute.com scenerio. This is sll very true.
An old friend was in town recently for a week-long visit. I’m not close to her anymore, but we usually see each other in a group setting when she is in town. Just superficial catching up, then bye until next year. I have not talked to her in months, she didn’t call to make any plans to get together before she got into town. So, short notice dinner plans were arranged by another local friend for the entire group. I chose not to go, because it certainly didn’t seem to be a priority for the out-of-town girl. The local girl told me she was annoyed at the out-of-town girl’s lack of effort to get together, and felt she was taking our little group for granted by just expecting us all to be available for dinner on short notice. She said she was going to talk to her about it at dinner that night.
To me, that is like explaining and re-explaining disrespect, all the while going along with the very thing you feel is disrespecting you. It sends a mixed message. Plus I have a long history of disrespect with this girl, and tried several years ago to “explain”, and it went over like a lead balloon. We have grown apart since then, and I am done explaining anything to her. I would rather let my actions do the talking.
Last year, I would have felt guilty for not attending a short notice dinner, but thanks to BR and all the women here who show courage in sticking to boundaries, I feel really comfortable about this decision.
ICanDoBetter: You’re absolutely right. Frankly, I’ve had similar experiences, but in the opposite role: Sometimes, I return to a town where I used to live for several years. I feel that many of my old acquaintances don’t care much about me anymore. I don’t care much about them either. Therefore, I usually call them on short notice (if at all) to ask whether they would like to meet me or not.
I used to wonder about this “disrespectful” behavior of mine, but now it makes more and more sense to me. I just didn’t want to make a big deal out of those meetings. Because of the short notice, I gave people a good excuse to say “no” if they wanted to (which is perfectly fine with me). I also reduced the pressure on myself to prove myself “worthy” of their time (what crappy thinking anyway!).
Anyway, if anybody would “scold” me for giving them short notice, I would feel very awkward. I would wonder whether they really cared about me or whether they just wanted to make me feel inferior. It can be very controlling behavior. In any case, it seems just wrong to me.
Looking over many old e-mails that I’d had long ago sent my ex AC and it now makes me sick.
What a huge waste of time? Yes, but also no.
Now, because of this article I understand what I’d so desperately been trying to do. Now whenever I catch myself “explaining/re-explaining”, it will be a huge sign. A STOP sign!
Thanks Nat – for putting something that seemed like it had no words for it, into, well, WORDS! And actually, this was the very thing that got me just so TIRED. It had been nameless to me until this article.
Essentially, I’d just gotten so tired of all the pointlessness. Nothing ever stayed “changed” by “explaining/re-explaining”. It just became so stale and old, that I was finally able to go and stay no-contact. Sad that I literally had to mentally/emotionally wear myself down into a little nub, but glad that it somehow had a positive result. It actually freed me from how enslaved I felt to such an unworthy loser – but I have also learned that I don’t need to keep doing relationships the hard way. That I can trust my own instincts! No longer do I need to burn-out and fade away.
The fresh insights I have found on this website have been incredibly helpful to my overall sanity; it has been a huge part of my daily therapy.
I feel like I can enjoy life again. The ambient emotional abuse I allowed into my life for twelve years was truly killing my soul.
Thanks for being part of what has helped me out a very self-destructive rut from hell!
Not sure why I even engage in any sort of conversation with my husband after what he has done (secret friend Sarah and possible secret life with threesomes – him, Sarah and another man). Asked him again the code for the AOL account so I could retrieve the account I hastily deleted. He says right to my face I don’t remember it. I do not need to see anything now….that is the biggest admission of guit if ever there was one. You all have given me such strength…and after that I told him that somewhere along the way he lost all respect for me and our marriage and he needs to leave asap because I don’t want to be anywhere near someone who would treat me like that. So hard because of the kids but what message would I be sending to my 14 year old if I put up with that. He is 51 years old and we have been married for 18 years I don’t need to explain basic respect. I need to be far away from him. Flush!!
Bewildered,
He is a total piss taker. And you are still giving him mixed messages. Stop threatening and take action. You should get that computer out of your house to a safe place where he can’t tamper with it anymore. And him, just out of your house. That’s the only thing he is going to understand.
Um – question from the Canadian girl – what does pisstaker actually mean? NML used the same word to describe my aunt; thought it meant someone who makes fun of someone else?
Oh it means she’s taking advantage, being a jackass type of thing, pushing the boundaries, overstepping the mark etc
Oh – makes sense now. Thanks!
Bewildered,
Just get a professional to get into the computer.
Why is this guy still living there?
Time to take some action!
So very sorry Bewildered. I know you’ll do the best for you and your kids under very extreme circumstances. My heart goes out to you and your children. From the outside, via cyberspace, this seems to be beyond basic respect. And as I write these words, I realize what I have tolerated goes beyond basic respect. There may be no way to explain basic respect. Either it is there or it isn’t and no amount of explaining will trigger it. That sucks. Stay strong.
EvaLe
Sometimes I think some of us were all dating the same pillock 🙂 yes my relationshit started out fun, spontaneous,romantic ..Blowing Hot hot hot ( it draws you in doesn’t it !)
I have no idea how the tables turn and why we end up apologizing for their behaviour…but I’m sure Nat prob has a few theories . Altho I fear its partly to do with what Fearless commented ..we are afraid they will walk if we kick up a fuss…so we go the other way and end up apologizing for fear of losing them …as at this point we are still waiting for the old them to reappear and blow hot/ validate us ??
One time we were booked into the Ivy in London, show booked, hotel booked ,… new outfit /underwear purchased, day off work …15 minutes before we were due to leave he text ! To cancel as he had to sort Things at work ! …what was my response as I stood there in my new knickers ?? ” oh sorry you so snowed under..it can’t be helped ” …and then I apologised for getting too excited about the date !!!
Fitness,
“yes my relationshit started out fun, spontaneous,romantic ..”
relationshit? Yep, mine was that too! 🙂
Add me in to the “relationshit” category. My god, it is truly amazing how they can wine, dine, find the time when they need a shag and be soooo very busy once the deed is done. Then I was back to explaining why he couldn’t just blow in and then blow out. He nodded and seemed to understand but continued and I continued explaining until I ran out of words and had to do something, take action. By the way, what does it mean when you simply don’t care anymore? Is that forgiveness? Or is it simply I don’t care anymore? I may give another guy the benefit of ONE explanation, maybe. I look back at my previous posts on this website, my unsent letter, my journal, and now I am puzzled as to why my knickers were in such a knot over such a knothead. He was a total jerk. What was I thinking? How do I not fall for the same crap again? If I was 20-something, I could chaulk it up to learning the ropes and gaining life experience At 52????
Some people really are children in adult bodies. That’s why I can’t explain things to them as I would an adult; they are not emotionally adult. I can’t have a relationship with an emotional child.
EvaLe
Forgot to say : EUM dipstick …was so considerate ( ahem ) he said he didn’t mind if I took someone else .! True .
Check out the ” enlightened ” dating advice from the ” lovely ” Eric …on askaguy at http://www.anewmode.com.
Fascinating bs .
@ debra
I totally resonate with your post !! ..I think it was the beginning of my relationship with ACEUM ..that I dwell the most on …and could make no sense of before BR….that in itself ” the beginning ” compared to him in the ” end ” ( ambiguous as it was ) is what drove me to thinking I might be losing my sanity !
Actually NO ..that horrible end where there was no ” end ” you get in normal relationships ..added to the insanity…gradually pulling away…but still saying I was his future…sex …but less tender , leaving me feeling empty and used ..I’m busy but I can’t lose you ..stick around whilst I have my space …bleuurrgh….anyways …..oops back to ” beginnings “….for me your comment ” he was just responding to ego strokes
…YES ..for me but he called it ” love “…. he had been single for 2 half years when we met as he didn’t ” do relationships anymore ” ..BUT …I got the lines ..you are the one who gave me my confidence back, you are the first I have let in in 2 years because you make me feel good….and the classic after the first time we made love ” I have waited 2 years to do it with someone who liked me ” ……err playback ME ME ME ME ME .
So yes I think he was responding to my ego stroking…god help me ..I actually told him he looked like George Clooney !!!! Lol.
In answer to your question is it ” real ” at the beginning…well , its very real for us…and I think my EUM has form and has always been like that even when married…BUT I think at the beginning some if them are not out to deliberately cause harm ( altho they do flag us that they might ) ..but MAYBE at the beginning overestimate their capacity for a relationship ?? I know mine did…in retrospect it was like he was pressing all the right relationship buttons…but outside of romance , fun, sex, when the deeper things like respect, care , trust , honesty..where needed to be required…he literally didn’t have the capacity to carry it thru …I’m sure he will always be able to show a.girl a good time in ” the beginning ” .but he will never carry it through..
So my long winded answer to you is that it did feel right to me at the beginning…but I didn’t know him properly…so I can only conclude it was on BOTH sides wishful thinking ..we can all get swept away …
One last thought : I was quite vulnerable when I met him , and he was not really over the end of his marriage..when he first told me he loved me ..I said ” you would have loved a donkey if it had come along and given you a bit off attention…and I think that was one of our hooks ..attention ! ! The novelty soon wears off .and they revert to former assclown self.
Too much talking because people don’t understand talking and explaining. In one ear and out the next. I swear they tune out. Show them what you mean and stand your ground. You can’t back track either.
I used to talk a lot because I was taught that the best way to solve a problem was to talk it out. But with men, that is a guaranteed fail. You want something, not a word. Act because that is ALL they understand.
I’ve been away from Baggage Reclaim for over a year now — THANK YOU NATALIE for helping me to realize how I was keeping myself stuck in bad relationships. I did some hard work on myself and my beliefs after my last EUM relationship, and am now with the most wonderful man I have ever met. It took me almost 2 years to get over the last EUM, but reading this post brought it all back — all of the insights that I got from this website that convinced me to do things differently.
Keep it up, girls!!! The time you spend reading these posts and REALLY letting it sink in will start to shift your perspective. Even though it might seem like there are no other options and that all men are EUM… once you change your own filters for what you want and what you deserve, you will start discovering a whole new category of men. I promise!
And it doesn’t only apply to personal relationships. I recently left a job in which my boss constantly dismissed or disregarded 90% of what I had to say. My position in the company included supervising managers and communicating their concerns back to upper management, yet every time I brought their opinions or insights to my boss, he would flat out tell me “that’s not how they feel, that’s not true.” And so the problems and issues continued. I was in a situation of having all kinds of information about what was REALLY going on, but if the person in charge didn’t want to see it or acknowledge it, I was bound to be ineffective in my position. I spent years trying to explain and get him to see what I was talking about… and then one day I realized — it’s not me, it’s HIM! And I could either stay in an unhealthy work situation where I had begun to doubt myself and my abilities, or I could leave.
So I left. And while it is a bit scary to be back in the job-hunting phase of life, I feel healthier than I have in years. At some point, we just need to stop fighting! Step one — in any relationship — is realizing your own worth. And only then can you make choices and decisions that lead to meaningful, fulfilling experiences.
Carry on, girls! And thank you Natalie! Your website honestly changed my life.
This website could help men too. I know quite a few men in “higher up” positions who quit work (they weren’t the corporate types) and decided to join the phase of life of job hunting. As difficult as it is, none of the men regretted quitting their position. One I know became a stay at home Dad and now has a great relationship with his children! (he also loves to cook…so that helps)
I know generally men have it easier than women do in business, but it just shows that even men sometimes need to leave the corporate world.
Great to hear, SmarterNow!
Blaise you wrote a how to treat me manual…too funny 🙂
Runnergirl ..welcome to the relationshit club.
Question : has any one else had ex EUM / AC who seems to look back on the relationshit as if he was conducting it on another planet ? Or maybe with someone else..as it certainly wasn’t me … what I mean is that one of the most hurtful things he said at the End was ” I’m not sure why your upset, I wasn’t aware we were an item ”
Say what ????
This ” non item ” I apparently was saw him everyday for 4 months ( except when he was ” disappeard ” ) , was sleeping with him because after my initial reluctance he had said not to worry ” you can trust me , I could never hurt you because you gave me my confidence back ”
I know these are all meaningless words now…but he very much made me feel we were ” an item ” at the time….and I suppose to realise we where viewing things differently hurts. Infact his glib dismissal of the relationshit…made me feel a lot foolish .
Again, the post is “spot on”.
My “friend” called me out of the blue because as he said, he was “actually bored”, wanted to go for a walk.
I thought he wanted to see ME, but actually he wanted my reaction from seeing his new muscle bound tattooed transformation.
It was all about HIM.
Worse, I got into a car accident on my way to meet him.
He was 5 minutes away and it took him 15 minutes to get to me.
Before he came to me he had to call his date that he had “piggy-backed” on top of our walk.
He killed an hour with me, and then went on his merry way.
What a waste of time.
And his new look? well I’ve seen it a hundred times before.
Nothing special.
Now I’m back to No Contact.
This is spot on, and as we all know, as this article clearly points out, it’s perfectly normal and natural to have initial ‘dialogue’ about things we don’t feel comfortable with, or may cross our boundaries etc; but, if they repeatedly keep doing it (and in my own most recent experience, they keep asking ‘why’ we’re so upset by their sh*te and unacceptable behaviour? Go figure!!!?) it’s clearly time to ‘kick it to the kerb’, and wake up and smell the sh*t stained roses, and bail out fast!
For my own part, after a particularly abusive and horrific marriage some 15 yrs ago, (He threatened with a gun, among other things, but I digress…) I honestly thought I’d got it mostly ‘sorted’ after I left him, and thought I could spot an ‘abusive idiot’ a mile off (duhh!) I proceeded with much caution for a number of years, and I did the usual things, going through therapy, reading ‘Women Who Love too Much” blah blah, and working on myself as much as possible, etc etc. All good, but maybe not enough to equip myself for all future eventualities…? hmmm…
Anyway, since then, I’ve had some very positive and also some very negative relationships, with varying degrees of success, but it’s only now, that I’m actually coming to terms with, and realising the true value and meaning of ‘self love’.
Until now, for me, ‘self love’ was just ‘a fuzzy feel good tag’ , left over from the 1970’s by a bunch of ‘do-gooding psychobabblers’ (I’m OK, You’re OK) and I actually found myself getting quite irritated and defesnive with people banging on about it?! But it’s finally begining to sink in, and at the age of 45, I’m begining to love and approve of myself anyway 🙂
I do appreciate that it’s often easier said than done for a while, until we learn to love and respect ourselves even more than we did before we met the EMU/Assclown in question, but in the meantime I won’t be beating myself up about it, because we never stop learning, and there’s always a new species of critter/EMU we’ve never encountered before that manages to slip under the electric fence of our boundaries, just when we least expect it? Hopefully we all learn more about ourselves each time this happens, and grow stronger and greater in the process.
Love to all, and thank you so much for your amazing and inspirational website Natalie! xxx
Wow, I can’t believe there are women out there who do this, making lists and charts explaining what they want and expect from the relationships, the pros and cons etc. My motto is to treat someone the way you want to be treated. I treat my girlfriend with the utmost respect and receive it in return.
I always think about how my actions would affect her and put myself in her shoes. There is no need for either of us to explain the meaning of respect.
Ladies, you have to remember that men are visual creatures, so instead of talking at them, telling them what they should and shouldn’t do, which will go in one ear and out the other, try showing them through your actions and behaviour. Afterall, actions speak louder than words.
I totally agree….I am in this current situation and this article has really provided me with some insight about myself.