Over the past few months, I’ve heard from a number of readers who have done all manner of things in the name of ‘winning’ what they feel is a race to ‘get’ a particular person. When asked why they had sex before they really wanted to, or agreed to take part in a sexual act that left them feeling degraded or even abused, or why they are ever accommodating and jump to it for every call/text/email no matter what time of night, why they provide a shoulder to lean on, money, job references (I kid you not), Powerpoint presentations (I kid you not), tidying, cooking and the list goes on, all reasons lead back to:
Because they felt that it would help them ‘win’.
Many people spend their time and energies doing things that they’re patently uncomfortable with, not because they genuinely want to and it’s reflective of their values, but because they’re convinced and afraid that if they don’t, they’ll ‘lose’. They’re losing anyway.
There’s also a common misconception that if you don’t do what someone expects or asks of you, whether it’s directly through words or via coercive or even passive aggressive action, that they will find someone else, because they would have remained with you if only you’d done it.
This is an illusion. What you need to actually focus on is the fact that they will find someone else to do what you don’t actually want to do (and will feel crappy about after doing) anyway.
You have to ask yourself how quickly will you sell you out? How quickly will you step up to the crap table and gamble yourself on the off chance that someone who would put you in the position of having to consider engaging in jackassary might make you their #1 and the exception to their rule of behaviour?
Of course you may argue that at the time when you gambled, you were convinced that if you just did this particular thing then you would win, but as anyone who has ever found themselves being blackmailed can attest to, once you agree to pay up, they just keep coming back, pushing the boundaries and increasing the threats. In the case of the person who you sell yourself short for, once you do it, they’ll only be too happy to flog you long time.
This fear that if you don’t drop your knickers, take the phone call from the person who has mucked you around time and again, sext with people you met on dating sites a few hours before, agree to text and never expect a phone call or to meet up, respond after they’ve disappeared, wait for people to leave their spouses/partners, be indispensable, take someone back repeatedly, hand over your money, believe their lies, and learn to ‘go with the flow’, that you will lose, is like self mind-f*ckery.
Just like fear means it’s not happening, if you genuinely fear that they’ll be offski if you don’t acquiesce or jump on their requests like an eager beaver intern, it means that whatever idea you have for a relationship isn’t happening or going to happen either.
How can it? In that moment, you’ve handed over your power and you’ll have a fear mentality for the rest of your involvement – it’s just no way to live.
If you feel that you have to do what you don’t want to do in order to remain with someone or just be in with having a shot at being with them, the topline data communicates that either your relationship is insecure and unhealthy, or that you’re too willing to compromise yourself while dating, for something that you don’t have or never had. It also tells you that you’re willing to do stuff that busts your boundaries if you think you’re within a hop, skip and a jump of getting the relationship you want.
That’s not a ‘competitive edge’ – it’s desperation, which is never sexy never mind part of any winning ‘strategy’. The fruits of desperation never feel good, even after the ‘win’, which means the winning feeling doesn’t last long.
I’ve heard from people who are so desperate for the next person to be ‘the one’ and to avoid being alone or having to go through the discovery phase of dating, that they will gamble and come up with every plausible excuse under the sun for why they’re doing so. Then weeks or months later, they’re in terrible pain over the realisation that they made a bad bet and that actually, yeah it might have been a pain in the arse to admit that it was a no-go a few weeks or months back, but it would have been far less of a pain than the regret they feel now that some time has elapsed and the very things they recognised and chose to ignore, have backfired.
If you’re doing any of this shite, you’re losing anyway. You’re losing you for a start – your sense of self, pride, values, boundaries, self-trust, self-care, self-respect, and self-love. Let me tell you now, I’m yet to come across one person who has said “You know what Natalie – it was totally worth it to screw myself over and lose my dignity in the name of ‘love’.”
I mean seriously, what kind of prize could you possibly be winning by doing things, not because you want to, but to compete to get someone who really just isn’t that special?
What have they done for you lately? Breathed? Dangled a future at you? Given you an orgasm? Yeah…it’s still not worth it.
It’s time to lose this competitive spirit that is actually blowing smoke up their arses and pumping them up, letting them believe that they’re more special than they actually are.
When you contemplate doing something with a view to ‘winning’, you know it’s time for you to step back as you’re being blinded by your ego. If you’re going to ‘lose’ because you don’t shag them before you’re comfortable doing so or whatever, go ahead and ‘lose’, because you will gain far more out of standing by you. That and the person who if they can’t bust up your boundaries will just go ahead and find someone else to bust their boundaries, was never worth the energy of holding onto and attempting to raise them from the ground up while teaching them your value. They’ll know your value – when you won’t participate in what they’re offering.
Yes, yes, this was the realisation I had within a day of the AC doing a number on me. I had to accept that I had been trying to win, win back those early feelings and make good those promises he made, win his approval and commitment. It wasn’t loving, of myself or him. It was my big bad pride, mixed with anxiety about not knowing where my life was heading…a lot to put on someone else, even if he contributed to, and encouraged, the dynamic and took advantage of me in some pretty hideous ways. The whole thing was whacked. Things feel so different now…there is space between things…exhale…
Natasha
on 21/02/2012 at 3:59 am
Elle, you said it right there sister. On a related note, this is why I think Deliberate Future Faking is one of the cruelest weapons in the Assclown Arsenal, as it leaves the person on the other end trying to win something back that they were never intending on giving anyway…and the assclowns know it full well. Good Lord, I’m SO glad we flushed the jerks.
Elle
on 21/02/2012 at 10:12 pm
So true, Natash. Yes, I can take responsibility for my stuff, but that AC told me all sorts of things to keep me invested that I then had to work out, crushingly, were not just reckless, but actual lies to get work-related favours, sex, and attention out of me. That was not deserved by me. I could have protected myself better from it, but I had to know what this brand of cruelty looked like. I didn’t recognise it, and it triggered or at least aggravated all that ‘winning nonsense’. Now, thankfully, I would smell it.
Elle
on 22/02/2012 at 6:25 am
meant ‘Natasha’, though I am a chronic abbreviation-hag!
Kelly
on 22/02/2012 at 6:20 pm
Yes! The Future Faking and being strung along was so awful. Whenever I asked my AC if we had a future, he’d say, “Yes, of course… but I don’t know what that means…” He’d actually pretend that he didn’t have an understanding of future talk, like that was a concept for other, less intellectual people. And I allowed myself to hang in there… ugh. We are SO fortunate to be rid of these creeps!
Christine Macdonald
on 20/02/2012 at 11:20 pm
In my 20+ years of dating, I found myself compromising my integrity many times. It was for the reasons you state here – that I thought I’d be losing out if I didn’t lower the bar.
Thank you for reminding us all what we are already losing if we compromise ourselves! There are worse things than being alone – being with someone who does not treat us with love, kindness, care, and respect.
I may be alone for the rest of my life, only God knows, but I do know one thing: I will never settle again.
Hugs from California,
Christine
xxoo
colororange
on 21/02/2012 at 3:26 am
Christine, that inspired me. Thank you. I’ve put myself in all kinds of compromising situations all to win some guy over. Are any of them still around? No. Did I win them over by being their puppet? No. If anything they lost more respect for me, I think. Like you, I may be single for the rest of my days but it’s better than having to trade myself down to something I am not.
Jen
on 21/02/2012 at 11:23 am
“I may be alone for the rest of my life, only God knows, but I do know one thing: I will never settle again.”
Amen sister!
I jumped through hoops for my ex-AC, and nothing was ever good enough. No matter how I tried to exercise or diet for him, he would always end up complaining. No matter how I tried to clean the house, he would always complain when it was remotely messy even if HE NEVER LIFTED A FINGER! If I had to borrow money off of him, he would complain even if I was the one paying for EVERYTHING.
But, I don’t regret it. I didn’t win, far from. But I did win a very valuable lesson on what it means to be true to myself, one I thought I had learned before. See, he wasn’t the first guy I jumped through hoops for. He wasn’t, sadly the last guy I jumped through a hoop for either. But he was like the peak of hoop jumping– after that the hoops became smaller, and now I just don’t think I have it in me to jump through any more hoops.
It’s a lot easier to realize I will never again do anything that makes me uncomfortable in order to “win” a man. It feels liberating that I am so unafraid of being alone and choosing me instead.
makara
on 20/02/2012 at 11:32 pm
Thank you Natalie for another amazing post. It’s like you can see what is going on in my life. I got involved with someone who I have to see everyday and it didn’t go well. He wasn’t going to give me the things that I wanted and so I have to admit that I did feel the urge to try and “win” him over. To show him that I am valuable and a good catch! Sheesh! Deep down I knew this behavior was unacceptable to me and I decided not to entertain that thought any longer. He really isn’t that special. He honestly has issues that he should deal with before ever dating anyone but he probably wont. This post was a nice kick in the arse for me!!! A reminder to keep my ego in check and to not compromise myself. In this case “losing” really is winning!!! Thank you SOOOO much!
Kmac
on 20/02/2012 at 11:48 pm
I think the thing that has really struck me since I’ve begun quite recently to laugh in the face of men who are obviously trying, quite underwhelmingly, to see what they can get even though they are not really interested, is how quickly and easily they respond with a sort of ‘oh well’ mentality and I never hear from them again. It makes me think of all of the times I had the sex, answered the text, went along with it hoping to win them over when there was actually absolutely nothing of any substance there and never would be, for any number of reasons. And then the pain. I’ll take a bout of loneliness over that particular brand of pain ANY day. For those of you still struggling with this along with me: Laugh, delete, and soldier on, practicing anything you can to help you begin to believe you are worth more.
Sabrina
on 21/02/2012 at 1:28 am
I like your “laughter” approach, it’s quite healthy! I used to take it personally when men would disappear after I made it clear that sex/sexting/etc wasn’t happening on a first date, nor was I looking for a casual encounter. Now, thankfully, I am realizing I don’t WANT those men.
colororange
on 21/02/2012 at 3:29 am
“practicing anything you can to help you begin to believe you are worth more.” says it all! Sometimes, I know it does for me, it takes everything I have to turn in a healthier direction. To believe.
metsgirl
on 21/02/2012 at 3:13 pm
Wow…agree with everything you said! It’s a sad realization for me now bc I gave up what I wanted for myself. I got blindsided with the whole “you’re so old-fashioned…everyone is doing xyz now” that I felt completely idiotic for not being more casual with my body. I even had a man say “we’re grown ups now not little kids” as if to say that having sex made him separate and apart and obviously so mature. I never had sex with him…I just thought it was funny to mention.
I wouldn’t say its peer pressure (at my age) but more of a fear that I would never find someone who actually values what I value (and still have chemistry). Now I realize that scaling back caused me to lose/hide what makes me “me”. Looking back, no man could truly love the real me because I wasn’t putting the real “me” out there.
It makes me so happy to see so many women “get it” for the first time and at an earlier age then me. I’m not old but too old to be dealing with grown men acting like high-school boys. Cheers to you and all the ladies on here. The only thing we’re losing are AC’s
grace
on 21/02/2012 at 7:55 pm
mets
Your “type” can change (thank God!).
I was at a church meeting the other evening, and was telling the group about a spiritual experience. When I finished, I looked round the room to see if I’d embarrassed myself, and the man was smiling at me. He has seen something in me that none of the other men have ever seen. I’m done with the Mystery Woman schtick I had going. I like putting the real me out there.
I don’t know how this Thing will turn out but I like that I like someone who is gentle, not arrogant, doesn’t show off, doesn’t brag, doesn’t charm, doesn’t flirt, doesn’t compliment me, doesn’t boundary bust. It’s so lowkey I wonder if he fancies me at all or if I imagined it. But, it’s okay because at least I know my taste in men has changed for the better.
I used to love the boundary busters – I got a thrill out of their pursuit and their bad behaviour but now, blah, I think it’s total rubbish!
Elle
on 21/02/2012 at 10:17 pm
Yay Grace! This guy sounds like the guy I have just started seeing. It’s low-key and authentic, but/and also consistent, warm and fun. There is space. You should be yourself from the start. That’s the best.
Funny (if I may say) dialogue over phone last night:
Sister-in-law: So are things hot and heavy with the new guy?
Me: hot, but not heavy. Not even overly hot.
Sister-in-law: Oh…
Me: No, it’s lovely, it’s just lacking that hot and heavy quality that comes when you kind of hate one another.
runnergirlno1
on 23/02/2012 at 2:34 am
Good for you Grace for putting the real you out there. I’m following your posts with regards to your vulnerability and, well, grace. I’m betting you didn’t embarrass yourself.
I hope you are finding Natalie’s new book interesting. I loved the Miss Self-Sufficient Miss Independent section. I think Natalie has plans to do an entire book on this type of FBG.
I can see how I attracted the exMM with my Mystery Woman Schtick and I can see how I was attracted to his Mystery Man Schtick. It was unavailable + unavailable = unavailable. It must be scary being vulnerable. But it really isn’t more than scary than being unavailable because you have boundaries.
Madhatter signing off.
SM
on 20/02/2012 at 11:51 pm
I love this post! Especially this part “What you need to actually focus on is the fact that they will find someone else to do what you don’t actually want to do (and will feel crappy about after doing it) anyway.”
That’s right, let someone else bust their boundaries to please these people, not you. Bleh, I cannot even imagine putting up with the crap of dating my last ac again, and I am quite sure there is another girl doing it. Not liking it but doing it anyway hoping he’ll throw a crumb her way if she seems ‘cool’ with his crap or that she’ll eventually become ‘the one’. When it didnt work for the rest of us.
Thank God for you Natalie. I keep telling my gf’s about this site and at first they all thought I was crazy but now they are starting to see the validity in your wisdom. Keep on, keeping on girl with this stuff. Eventually because of BR, I will hopefully wean myself right off of my Fall Back Girl, Boundary busting behavior!
blueberry girl
on 21/02/2012 at 1:25 am
I remember being in a bar with my girlfriend when I got a text from the alky asking me to hang out. My friend had just ordered a drink and I practically poured the margarita down her throat. I was so eager to leave and be with him, every minute I waited for her was torture. He “wanted me” and I couldn’t drive there fast enough. My anxiety stemmed from the fact that his contact was so sporadic and undependable that he had me jumping through hoops when I did hear from him. So many red flags ignored. Ugh, how dumb. What was I so afraid of losing? He still disappeared, still kept drinking, still left, still hurt me, still rebuffed any of MY contact…
Abby
on 21/02/2012 at 3:51 pm
Haha yes blueberry,
When my exAC started to contact me less frequently and sporadically it was totally OK that he send me a text at 1am or call me at 6am, I’d eagerly respond.
When he began withdrawing from me sexually any sexual contact was good enough for me even if I wasn’t receiving any pleasure from it. I just needed to feel like he still fancied me.
Fashnlvr
on 21/02/2012 at 12:37 am
I have to say that this is VERY good advice for those of you dating. I am married but even in a marriage relationship we can sometimes find that we compromise what we want for what he wants too often and end up losing one’s self in the process. If you put a high value on yourself, men will see it. Those men worth having will be intrigued and value you highly also. My post today is about Knowing What You Sow. If we women pretend the kind of man that undervalues us is a rose, don’t be surprised down the road when it turns out you have a thorny Devil Stick instead!
Great post! I really enjoyed reading it!
Tracy
on 21/02/2012 at 1:07 am
I did exactly this a couple of weeks ago. After 16 months of head games and assholery…. I flippin did it again!!! He chased me endlessly (just lives around the corner), I blinked in the face of my NC rules, and then, guess what?… he disappeared. Just like always. I fell back into that hole of self blame and how dumb could I be? again.
But, in 5 days I am moving away from this neighbourhood and, with a clear purpose and intent to love me and treat myself to the wellness gift of never seeing him again, never having him drive endlessly, keep tabs on me, check in. I am worth so much more that that freak. And I rented one of the finest places here on the beach, I look over the world in ocean and mountains. Taking my boundaries back where they belong, with me, and smile just thinking about it!!!
runnergirlno1
on 21/02/2012 at 1:18 am
Well crumbs. There isn’t enough cyberspace in cyberland to admit to everything you say in this post. I’ve done it all with the exMM. I really, really did think in only the twisted way a classic FBG could think, that if I just did X, Y would happen. I would “win”. I was so caught up in winning, my ego, and my fantasy, I never gave a thought as to the prize. I very much compromised myself in order to get the relationship I thought was just around the corner, if only I would jump through the next hoop and there was always a next hoop just like you say. Here’s an example, although I have many to choose from: Mother’s Day last year, he can only slot me in in the morning cos he’s got to be with his wife and mother for dinner, well cos it’s Mother’s Day after all. I said nope. Too bad. Then I did the classic FBG gig and figured that something was better than nothing and met with him for mimosas and sex in the morning while he went off to be with his wife and mother for the evening. I felt like crap after he left, an understatement. It’s so clear now. Once he knew I had no boundaries, it was open season.
After over a year and change since the big break-up, falling off the NC wagon several times, and the most recent encounter, I’m just stunned at what I thought was the prize and how very little he was offering. Thanks to you all and Natalie, I’m starting to discover my value. He’s just simply not offering anything, certainly nothing that could add positively to my life. I’m no longer that desperate. He’s no longer that special.
I did succumb to the intensity and told him all about himself AGAIN, via email/text. He just seemed so intent on going down memory road, I couldn’t resist filling him in on how shagging me and returning to his wife made me feel like shit. Yeah, I know, it’s futile. Yeah, I know it’s like I gotta win still again. Yeah, I know I’m not really winning again. Yeah, I know no response is the best response. I know better. I just wanted him to know that his arse is kicked to the fricking curb. There’s no more. There’s no more longing wistful emails about the good old days every six months or so. There’s nothing but the curb and his wife staring at him in the morning. It was a pretty good nastygram as those things go. F**K him. The door is closed. Period. Period. Period. Period. Forever.
Magnolia
on 21/02/2012 at 8:49 am
Oh Runner, hugs. I’m sorry to hear that you’re still invested enough in the story that you felt you needed to let him know even a word of what was on your mind. Email and text? Was it an actual exchange? Hope not.
What clarity: he tried to slot in sex with his side piece in the morning “because it was Mother’s Day.” I bet he thought he was gallant, giving attention to all the needful women in his life on that day. Anyway, who cares about that turd.
What’s next for runnergirlno1?
runnergirlno1
on 22/02/2012 at 3:54 am
Hey Mag, it was ‘just an email’. I get texts and emails on my Iphone so there isn’t a difference anymore. He did the usual, “you looked gorgeous” bullshit on a new email address because he knows he’s blocked. I tried to resist responding but I couldn’t. Actually, my response was quite measured considering the anger and hurt I was experiencing. I told him there would be no more communication for any reason as any communication is disrespectful to his wife and to me. That’s it. Of course, I pointed out that he needs to find another OW to distract him from his marriage and I’m not that woman. Good luck to him. I also couldn’t refrain: He always said, “I deserve better” and I do. It was a pretty matter of fact response. Then I blocked his new email address. No more twisting, morphing, cooking or sexing. I’m done. I’m the one who got away! His loss, although I really feel very sorry for his wife. If she knew what he was up to within the last week, she’d be horrified. I’m glad I’m not his wife. Is there anything I should do to make it right with his wife?
grace
on 22/02/2012 at 10:05 am
runner
NO, leave his wife to do whatever it is she’s doing. Separate yourself from their drama.
Don’t respond to any more of his texts/emails/psychic messages. Your recent communication is neither here nor there in the grand scheme of things but that’s enough now. Draw the line under it.
I’m completely free of all exes except the first one. He posts publicly on my FB about his kids’ pets, stuff like that. It’s innocent. I’m not patrolling it like a sentry guard but if it gets out of hand, he’s out too.
I finally blocked the email of the ex who was in my life fairly consistently for about 20 years. I just don’t need the reminder I was THAT girl.
I am 100% over all of the exes because, apart from one (who was and is a decent guy), I have cut off every last iota of contact. I don’t look at them on FB, I don’t google them. I don’t talk about them. And there has been no loss at all, only gain.
It’s as if I never knew them.
I thought it was not possible, but they are irrelevant to me now. I don’t even think to myself “at least I learned from it”. They mean nada.
I’m gonna stop now in case you think “she protests too much”!
EllyB
on 22/02/2012 at 12:08 pm
Runner: According to something I’ve read somewhere, it’s considered a crime if somebody uses a new email address to get through to a person who blocked him. But I’m not sure.
Maybe you should have told him that (and nothing else) – or you shouldn’t have responded at all. Anything else is futile and is only going to hurt you more.
runnergirlno1
on 23/02/2012 at 2:06 am
Hey Grace & EllyB, and all
I’ve dialed down my drama meter and drawn a line under it. Thank you for the reality check. After pausing, I realized my post was something along the lines of “OMG, the lying, cheating, AC/MM is still a lying, cheating AC/MM who thinks I’m still going to bust my boundaries and cook for him and sex him”. That’s nothing to write to BR about. News flash: Liars continue to lie. But here’s the real news flash: I’ve got boundaries and values and I’m not going to screw myself over in order to win a liar.
Grace, you aren’t protesting too much. Every single ex is now just someone I used to know. It’s just a matter of time before this guy will be somebody I used to know.
EllyB, he used his work email because his wife hacked his home email. It’s a public email address, so anybody from his office has access. I just forgot to block it. He knows that I can forward his emails to his wife if he persists or publish them on a blog. He won’t persist. He was just giving it another shot, chancing his arms, seeing if the door was really shut. It’s shut. I don’t want to win. He may roll back around in another 6 months and then I’ll pull out my standard response to MM’s: If you email me again, I’ll forward it to your wife. That is usually end of story.
tired_of_assanova
on 21/02/2012 at 11:51 am
Thanks to you all and Natalie, I’m starting to discover my value. He’s just simply not offering anything, certainly nothing that could add positively to my life. I’m no longer that desperate. He’s no longer that special.
I call it containerisation or relationship quarantine. It sounds like you had no more space or hand in his life than a hooker. The checkout server at the local supermarket probably saw him more often!
It is so soul destroying to realise that someone has sectioned you off/quarantined you from the rest of their life and doesn’t involve you with meeting their friends, family and doing group things. Lack of proper title even made this more acute. My AC told me that he was ‘not good with groups’ which was total and utter crap – his facebook is FULL of him in groups with his friends. Did he involve me – NO.
One of the things that I had difficulty reconciling was me at the psych trying to explain how I had put all the focus on him, and to him, I was just some insignificant small fry and that there were so many other people he was chasing / seeing at the same time. There’s ALWAYS more than one person lurking around somewhere…
Like Natalie says – always have backup sources of happiness.
runnergirlno1
on 21/02/2012 at 4:31 pm
Hey Magnolia, enjoying the blooming of spring and continuing to build my life are next. I’d never go back down that dark hole trying to “win” by selling myself down the river. I was surprised that I am still vested as well. There is more hurt and anger to work through, apparently. But there’s no going back.
Tired, an OW is always quarantined and it is soul destroying. You are right about that! I’m glad we are out of quarantine now.
P.
on 21/02/2012 at 6:09 pm
omg, the checkout server saw him more often. yes. cringe. Yes, this has been over and (mostly) am over him, but had a weird dream about this guy this morning and remembered. Now – “tired”, you gave me a reality check. even in the dream he was more interested in some sparkly picture than me, (in the dream) delivering some goods for his “business” (he does not have one in real life). How telling, how appropriate! I let the thoughts just float, no reason to be forceful with them, but I did tell myself out loud: He. just. was. not. interested. in. me.
Miranda
on 21/02/2012 at 7:06 pm
“After over a year and change since the big break-up, falling off the NC wagon several times, and the most recent encounter, I’m just stunned at what I thought was the prize and how very little he was offering. Thanks to you all and Natalie, I’m starting to discover my value. He’s just simply not offering anything, certainly nothing that could add positively to my life. I’m no longer that desperate. He’s no longer that special.”
Well said Runner, I feel exactly the same now about my ex-EUM….what was he offering anyway??!!
Nat, this post had me almost cheering from the rooftops, it just confirms totally the situation I got myself out of 6 weeks ago. He wanted me to bust my boundaries, have a relationship purely on his terms; no thought or care for what I wanted. I wasn’t prepared to ignore my values to satisfy his needs, no one is that special, certainly not him!! What would I have got in return anyway? Well he cheats on his current girlfriend, there’s a start…NO THANKS.
He is supposedly getting what he wants but he’s still not satisfied, he’ll never change, he’ll never be happy. She’ll soon get wise to his ways, but he’ll have another victim waiting in the wings. If the sad a**hole comes back to press the reset button on me, he’ll get the sound of silence. 37 days of NC and counting, feeling stronger than ever.
Being Single is Amazing, it will take an Amazing person for me to give it up!!!!
Thank-you Thank-you Thank-you Nat xxx
runnergirlno1
on 22/02/2012 at 3:23 am
Hi Miranda,
I’m not a really good role model. After my soul was destroyed, I finally did recognize that a MM was not adding to my life, only subtracting and there was NOTHING I could do because like Nat says I did it all to no avail. I busted every boundary I thought I had in order to get a MM to leave his wife for me. There’s no such thing as a “relationship” when it is always on his terms.
For my future, a guy will have to add something to my life. I have a wonderful daughter (although she’s in transition), I have great job, I have a house, I have car (although I need a new one). A guy needs to add and be a co-pilot. I’ve become so much more aware and grateful as to where I am, what I have, and what I’ve earned. I’ve done it all on my own without a guy, despite numerous guy detractors. The guys I’ve hung with and bent over backward to please, never contributed one drop to me. That’s a very difficult realization. I did it despite them.
kirsten
on 21/02/2012 at 1:20 am
Hi guys, it’s been a while but I’m still here from time to time.
I think another point to make on this subject, is try busting THEIR boundaries and watch them run run run!!! Imagine us asking these assclowns for money/shoulder/whatever.
Haha I’m having a chuckle just thinking about their reactions.
Have a great day 🙂
tired_of_assanova
on 21/02/2012 at 11:56 am
They have boundaries alright!
Boundary = NO RELATIONSHIP
No intimacy, no love, no care…
Cross the line – watch the alarms go off and go crazy!
Boundary – I will not tolerate anyone phoning me and meeting me in person
Boundary- I will keep everything on a ‘needs to know basis’ and only release information when pressed (the AC did this!)
Boundary – I will not put a title on our ‘thing’
metsgirl
on 21/02/2012 at 3:26 pm
Amen! They offer absolutely nothing but a mind screw!
P.
on 21/02/2012 at 6:13 pm
t-of-a,
you forgot, and I quote: “truth is on a ‘need-to-know’ basis”. WTF? WHAT was I thinking?
Future faking and SLOW-forwarding, title was there all right, but no action :(.
Blue skies & sunshine
on 21/02/2012 at 4:49 pm
Kirsten – I learned this from painful experience too. Like so many others here, my ex refused to give us a label and was very adept at avoiding situations where questions might be asked. Just once, someone asked outright: “are you two and item or just friends?” After an *excruciatingly* long silence he was forced to concede we were, indeed, an item.
He finished with me the next day.
Now there’s boundaries for you.
Blue skies & sunshine
on 21/02/2012 at 7:18 pm
Of course I should add that the happier postscript to the sorry tale above is that I went away, got real with myself and rediscovered my own value. Now he’s back, saying he misses me, but it’s too late. I think we are both coming to the slow realization that I may just be the best thing he’s ever lost…
imfree
on 21/02/2012 at 10:34 pm
same thing happened to me when i was out with ex AC – i was described as a colleague – and this was to a ticket inspector we didn’t know, and would never see again…wtf?! “my colleague here would like a ticket to…..”. My heart sank and i felt terrible, but personalised it which made it more difficult to see what a bad situation it was and that i should leave.
i put up with this cr*p for so long, and although my self esteem has risen above ground level (still some way to go, but i’m moving in the right direction) i am so used to being in a relationship and being treated like that – i feel i’m actually struggling a little bit in a new relationship where things are *normal* – ie meeting friends, family as part of me wants to run in the opposite direction. I’m really trying to untangle these feelings – are they a sign i’m not into new person enough? or is it a reasonable left over from years and years of being badly treated / single where i didn’t have to deal with a new relationship and what that brings.
I’m happy now, and i’d walk away from this new relationship if it is not meant for me, (i dont fear being single) but dont want to sabotage something good because old demons are showing their faces.
Sorry a bit off topic there!
tired_of_assanova
on 22/02/2012 at 9:29 pm
I got described as ‘friend’ at the restaurant – which technically was correct as four weeks before they had done a disappearing act and I had been managed right down and was trying to recover the initial high of the ‘I think I have a chance of becoming the significant other’.
They knew I was crazy about them but at that stage I had not found BR and I sailed past that red signal.
Sabrina
on 21/02/2012 at 1:24 am
THANK YOU, thank you. I love this post! Because this is (was?) me… I’ve tolerated so much bad behavior, right down to the sexting with men I just met hours before on dating sites (it’s embarrassing to admit). I’m so afraid that I’ll end up alone that I change my fundamental values and personality. Readings posts like this is very empowering. Thank you!
CC
on 21/02/2012 at 1:25 am
Kmac, I’m still suffering from the pain. I used to have no boundaries, thought that by doing things they ask for/want me to do e.g. have sex, showing affection, would make them happy and in return will make me happy. I had put him in the center of my universe.
My ex cut me off after taking every advantage of me. how much I wish I would have found this post and BR before so that I won’t get myself into such a mess. I now understand that I should uphold my boundaries! But now I’m trapped in the pain of regret, the anger and shame towards myself, for doing such stupid things, giving myself to someone who doesn’t really worth it, I was so blinded by the illusion; and I’m also suffering from the anger I have on my ex, for taking advantages of my trust on him. how can I get out from this pain and feeling of regret?
kmac
on 21/02/2012 at 1:29 pm
Oh CC, I know exactly where you are. Know that my heart is with you. The thing is, as wonderful as BR is, and as wise as Natalie’s posts are, reading alone does not keep you from ‘getting yourself in such a mess.’ It begins with a decision, and I think that is one of the most helpful things about this site. If you are suffering, reading the posts and responses and all of the support found here from women going through what you are will help you make that decision. I know for me, it also took a rock bottom, and mine happened five months ago when the end of a mere 3-month relationship with someone who really wasn’t treating me very well led to severe depression and thoughts of not wanting to go on with my life. My friends kept vigil, I read this site several times a day for support, and then, I decided. No. More. Don’t get me wrong. When you decide, really decide, the heavens don’t part and celestial choirs don’t sing, and you don’t suddenly feel healed, whole and capable of giving and receiving love. On the contrary. For me, a key word is practice. It’s like anything else. One step forward, two steps back. Three forward, two back. While I think practice is different for everyone, and I think different things are helpful for different people, here are some of my practices:
1) I try not to beat myself up on the days I step backward.
2) I try to get exercise, or at least fresh air, every day. Nature is healing.
3) Meditation. If you don’t have a formal practice, try to sit in silence for a time each day and let your thoughts come and go. When they start to spin out, try to concentrate on your breathing. Silence is nourishing, and leads to greater clarity.
4) Perhaps the single most important thing: Feel the feelings, drop the story. Feel sad. What you are going through feels beyond sad, I know. But when you begin to make up the stories about yourself, or him, or your life, try to place your attention elsewhere. On your breath. On your favorite place. Anywhere else. The difficult feelings will pass, they always do if you let them. And they flow through us far more quickly if we drop the terrible stories we tell ourselves about us as a result.
As for the guy, he didn’t act the way you wanted him to. People don’t sometimes. And the more I realize that much of time that has nothing to do with me, the better I…
Stephanie
on 21/02/2012 at 7:10 pm
CC
I too know how you feel. Like Kmac my so called relationship with an AC only lasted 3 months and ended last October, by the end I was a depressed emotional wreck. He future faked, told little white lies, managed me via text and demonstrated horrible narcissistic behaviour and I too wished I had found BR before he disappeared. But the one thing (that I’ve never mentioned here before) that really disappointed me was that I slept with this guy on our 2nd date. At the time I didn’t care I told myself that if we both liked each other then it shouldn’t matter. But of course it matters, jumping into bed with someone so soon was wrong on my part, and that’s the error that I made. It so important to remember your boundaries and not get caught up in illusions, looks and charm. I thought I was lucky to have him (because he was successful, handsome, had a good city banking job) and I would have done anything I could to keep him and make him want me. If he sent me a text asking me to come over or go out, I would drop everything and go, but he was never able to make any of the dates that I initiated.
Eventually you will start to feel better, it takes time. Meditation has helped me to stop beating myself up and also the support of my sisters and friends, and of course all you BR ladies! (and men). Like Kmac says BR will not heal you completely, you need to find the strength to make the decision to move on and follow it through.
Happy Soul
on 23/02/2012 at 7:14 pm
Stephanie, I did exactly like you did (the second date), but my “relationship” lasted for one month, I wanted this way as I was depressed over my Ex AC who came back to my life in October 2011 with new promises and no actions. I did not believe him and I was right! I was feeling sorry for myself that I lost four years of my life for this loser. I thought let me use this new guy…I was wondering if I can sleep with another guy after being with one man for years…and I DID it. I felt relief and happy, somehow I was grateful to this new guy, that he “cured” me from my Ex AC…BUT I would never do this again.
I wish you Stephanie all the best and to all our lovely ladies, I am so happy that I discover BR in 2008!
metsgirl
on 21/02/2012 at 3:36 pm
In a quick sound-bite? Feel it…mourn it…and then agree to let go. Afterwards, take every ounce of energy you have practicing (in real time) how to express love and care TO YOURSELF only. (As you mentioned above…make YOU the center of your universe). Make it safe and okay to discover the real you. It sounds kooky but it’s not. The parts you gave away doesn’t resemble the real you =).
If you stay angry, you will stay stuck. Take it from someone who’s been on here for five years. The yuck and regret goes away as soon as you internalize love, care, trust and respect (per NML) for yourself. Many hugs to you.
CC
on 21/02/2012 at 10:17 pm
Thank you ladies for the support and the advice! This means a lot to me!
kmac,
I do exactly the same. I come here to BR several times a day, especially when I feel weak, when I feel I’m beating myself up with those anger and regret. I read Natalie’s and you ladies’ advice to remind myself the values and boundaries I have to uphold, and that I have to love and trust myself. I have made the decision to accept who my ex really is and to accept what happened as it is, as a lesson. I just have to be firm with this, not allowing the illusion my ex created haunt me and draw me back to the Lala land again.
For me, future faked by my ex, thought that I was in a committed relationship, I used to think that I’m willing to do anything for him, “in the name of love”, and I just want him to be happy. I thought he would see how much I have sacrificed for this relationship and he would treasure it better. It shouldn’t be like this, never.
Stephanie,
I used to think that I was so lucky to have my ex, I thought he’s my soulmate, the one who can truly understand me. And yet he made use of my trust on him. Saying he’s so busy a work and the sending me email is the only thing he could do. ha!
“At the time I didn’t care I told myself that if we both liked each other then it shouldn’t matter. ”
I thought the same and I actually thought that with him SAYING that he is serious with this relationship and would be committed, then this should be okay. And it turned out to be all lies.
metsgirl,
yes! I really have to learn to love myself better, to rebuild my self-trust and self-love. Let go of the illusion and keep myself in reality, not trying to control the uncontrollable anymore. hugs well received 🙂
Thanks so much NML for this platform, full of support and love!
ResJudicata
on 21/02/2012 at 1:35 am
Within several weeks after my last A/C returned to my home town, it became clear that he was a compulsive gambler with a bad problem. I had the presence of mind to attend a GA meeting, at which a gentlemen told me that the A/C would suck my dry if I did not get him some help. Instead, he floundered around all summer before blowing all of his money at the poker tables. Miraculously, he expected that I would bail him out with $3000-$4000 and/or the use of my car.
Having read many posts and comments here, it was painfully apparent that I was not getting any love, care, trust, or respect. I declined his request; he blew a hissy fit; and told me not to contact him again.
No big loss there — I would much rather be alone than spend my time tethered to some Code Red A/C intent on going through life as a huge loser.
karmicdiva
on 21/02/2012 at 2:17 am
I’ve been working on relationship boundaries for awhile now. Your post touched me in so many ways. My last quasi relationship ended after 4 months. We lived 120 miles apart and took turns driving 3 hours to see each other. I wasn’t willing to put the effort into it anymore because I wasn’t getting what I needed from him.
I stood up for myself and he couldn’t handle it. It ended badly but it ended. I didn’t try to win him over or backslide into the old habits of “doing whatever it takes” to keep him.
This time I took care of me first. I didn’t get caught in the trap of always giving him cookies and getting only crumbs back. In the end I won and did myself a big favor by letting go. I haven’t talked to him since and won’t lower myself to contact him or respond to his messages. I’m getting better all the time. Thanks for hitting the nail on the head for me one more time.
tired_of_assanova
on 21/02/2012 at 12:02 pm
Oh dear.
This sounds like me! Ha! I tried so hard. Funny how the AC could always make the trip for a hookup or to see their mates. I thought it could work because either they or I could move, but the hour away distance just was used as a smokescreen excuse.
Sigh.
FinallyDidIt
on 21/02/2012 at 2:25 am
I’ve learned so much since I discovered BaggageReclaim and one of the most painful and humiliating things I learned is that I had no boundaries (and I wonder why this guy walked all over me?). I was always trying to win the prize. He always dangled it in front of me, just a little out of my reach and I always took the bait. I can remember one time when he said he would call me in a few days and didn’t call me for 3 weeks and when he did he said he was thinking about me (????) and nothing else – no explanation – nothing. I was so happy to hear from him – I hit reset, agreed to see him, proceeded to have sex with him (OMG – someone should have slapped me). And the cycle continued…. Until I told him to f— off. Fast forward 7 months and the power has been transferred to me. He is contacting me, wants to see me. Must think I want to take a trip down assclown memory lane. He is now getting what he deserves and what was long overdue – NC.
BGirl
on 21/02/2012 at 2:52 am
I love this post. I have a very hard time letting go of the past and I have the worst case of the woulda, coulda, shouldas. I drive myself crazy wondering if I had done “this” or “that” then the EUM would have liked me more. I felt I wasn’t pretty enough, thin enough, thick enough (depending on the day), outgoing enough, talkative enough, and if only I could change those things, everything would be perfect. When I did try to change who I was based on what I thought he wanted, I ended up hating myself even more. I’m still trying to accept that there is nothing I could have done or said differently because he is who he is. It still hurts so bad though because I have sacrificed so much of myself and my self esteem to someone who never really even cared. And for that, I will forever be ashamed. 🙁
tired_of_assanova
on 21/02/2012 at 12:22 pm
Yeah, you become a human transformer.
It is part of the drama meter- even when they are cut off, the drama meter doesn’t shut down immediately, and so you automatically go below 5, in fact you might go to 1 or even zero or negative.
I know that the worst levels of being a human transformer/play-doh actually happen AFTER I’ve cut contact with them. It is like ‘what can I do to transform into them/grab their attention/win them back/make them change’.
When someone radically changes for you it looks desperate, weird and strange. And even IF you do these things, there is STILL no guarantee that they will be caught – just ask the people who have tried to catch/trap/sex into commitment EUMs and ACs only for them to take the cheese out of the mouse trap but not have it go off.
There’s no prizes or awards for putting yourself through this pain. This awful 8 month experience was so painful, but it is the last time I do that and any future challanges from these EUMs and AC’s will be much more swiftly dealt with and cause much less damage.
Stephanie
on 21/02/2012 at 7:20 pm
BGirl
I’ve done this too! I was so busy trying to be what I thought he wanted in a woman that when it ended, I was lost. After he disappeared into thin air I kept thinking about the woulda, shoulda and couldas and it drove me crazy. I kept thinking if only I could have been more talkative or even more affectionate, or maybe I shouldn’t have asked him after 2 months “where this was going”. Like you said there’s nothing you or I could have done, he is who he is!
tired_of_assanova
on 22/02/2012 at 9:16 am
I spent around 3 months with my mind going at full speed with these thoughts – they were unstoppable and I needed to buy a music player to override them. It was horrible.
Karina
on 21/02/2012 at 7:06 pm
BGirl…I’m on the same boat, but after breaking down this past weekend over some AC bullshit behavior I have realized I have got to get it together once and for all.
My most recent ex decided to text me and say how much he enjoyed the time he spent with me for the sex. He didn’t mention anything else and I was flabbergasted as I know he has a new gf! So I told him to go off and tell her that and to leave me alone, to stop being so disrespectful. Well, I was so furious I told him off because he continued to say how much he missed sex with me. He then proceeded to insult me and call me a “crazy angry bitter bitch” (I kid you not, he really wrote this and no commas either!). So I really went off and then cried my eyes out. I was in shock to think he would ever say those words to me. But then again, it happened before with my other ex and his new gf. I have been looking back at my behavior and I need to really stop feeling ashamed for being who I am. I need to stop putting myself down because of two assholes that have done nothing but hurt me and are going on with their lives as if I never existed. And that’s the point I want to make…while we die a little bit more each day, their living the grand ole life. Are we going to let that happen to us or are we going to fight to live the life we’ve always dreamnt of? Your call…I know I made mine already. Good luck!
tired_of_assanova
on 21/02/2012 at 10:03 pm
And that’s the point I want to make…while we die a little bit more each day, their living the grand ole life.
Being EU or AC is all about mega protection from intimacy and commitment. I don’t register in the AC’s life and I know it – their protected. Coming to think about it I think the AC has done this before – months before we started deepening we were chatting and the AC mentioned how I had to get off dating sites because “90% of the people on there had issues or no social life”, blah blah, they even removed their profile for a while – interesting. I wonder what the hell happened to make someone do a major change like that. Hmmm…
Elle
on 22/02/2012 at 6:31 am
That is some of the least worthy behaviour imaginable. Who would write that to someone? What a degenerate. You don’t deserve that treatment, let alone having him as your romantic partner.
Karina
on 23/02/2012 at 2:30 am
Elle…this has happened to me twice already with two different men. When I try to stand up for myself I’m the anrgy bitch. Well…now I have to pick up what’s left of my self esteem noe and keep on moving.
Limerence
on 21/02/2012 at 2:58 am
This is so true and was me in the last go around with the MM/AC. I even told everyone here. I was going ALL IN to win him. He told me flat out he would never say he loved me (he couldn’t, he said, it wouldn’t be fair to many people). SO I WAS GONNA PROVE HIM WRONG!!!
In the end, I gave money, energy, time, sex, pictures, my dignity, played games at his level and I got the “I LOVE YOU” twice! You know what? It wasn’t worth ANYTHING. I didn’t even want him at this point.
I was done after that. I realized I was behaving like the assclown. He begged me for friendship… BEGGED ME. I said I would try that… but then I realized I wasn’t doing it for me, he was never a friend to begin with, and I was living so far outside my ideals that I couldn’t even recognize myself. He just wanted a shoulder to lean on and sob to about his sexual harassment investigation and probably more money.
He was all sad and painted himself as the victim (“I thought you could be my only friend, the only person in my life I could tell anything to” “I value you and respect you soooo much” LOL, yeah right). He’s had multiple affairs and I realize now he will always be this way. When I first started the relationship with him, I thought he just had never had compassion and true friendship… I was so deluded and ignored a( everyone at work who told me to stay away from my creep b) my own gut and instincts because i was raised by a mom who showed me my only value was when men were interested in me, especially sexually! c) this site many times just to go back and see if I could win e) my friends who were telling me just to leave him alone and stop giving in.
You can really lose yourself to these games with these AC. I’m slowly picking up the pieces, in therapy, and trying to once again live my life in my ideals. I’m embarrassed, ashamed, hurt and let myself be used again and again and again. The things I did… I can’t ever undo them. Before MM/AC I had only been w/ one man sexually and we had been in a very good committed relationship. Everything was very respectful. With the MM/AC, I was doing things that were downright degrading, horrible, and so far removed from what I am that I can’t even think about it without crying.
Magnolia
on 21/02/2012 at 8:55 am
Limerence,
You’ve come far already. We’ve all done things we aren’t proud of. We’re just looking for the love and respect we need and deserve. You went through this experience, learned a ton, and now you’re going to be armed with a new self-confidence. Take it day by day!
Nikki
on 21/02/2012 at 3:10 am
I just have to say, ‘THANK YOU NATALIE!!!!!’. You’re like the girlfriend that every woman needs in her circle…forget that, as a BEST FRIEND! As soon as I started to get tired of my ex AC’s assclownery, I found this website. That was 6 months ago & I haven’t spoken to him (or answered his shitty calls) since. I don’t know why, but I found myself crying the other day over the hurt, lies, future faking, and emotional abuse I experienced during the “relationship”. I realized that I had never allowed anyone to negatively affect me, make me even consider changing who I am, or get to know me the way that I allowed him to. And, that really made me feel low the other day. However, everytime I read your posts, I realize that I am not alone, I can learn to love/respect/trust me, and maybe experience a real, healthy relationship later. Keep ’em coming Natalie because your site is truly one of a kind!
Tea Cozy
on 22/02/2012 at 12:06 am
Nikki, I think those strong feelings and tears are a natural part of gaining distance, clarity, and new insights via remaining in No Contact.
I’m finding that my perspective on past breakups continues to evolve. And, yep! I still shed tears now and then (and am always a bit taken aback by it, after all these months post-breakup and in full NC).
I suppose mourning and healing is a wiggly process, not as linear as I would like, that’s for sure. But as long as we continue to treat ourselves with love, care, respect, and kindness (the NML mandate), the healing will continue.
Magnolia
on 21/02/2012 at 3:47 am
Good post! I still work to shake off the bred-in-the-bone message that I can’t both eat what I like and be svelte enough for a man “with standards.” So I always thought I had to starve myself in order to “win.” I fight to counter that message with: “What kind of douche would be with you, then try to control you and your eating with threats of looking elsewhere for sexier women?” (God, my father (bless him) was a douche when I was young!) If anyone has a tip on how to really, genuinely see my cellulity legs through the eyes of love, pass it on!
On the broader who-am-I-in-society front, I know that I compromised my values in order to be with a man who was my entrée into the “winners circle” of my city. It was a very painful, but significant day, the day I said to myself that if being this untrue to myself is what it takes to “win,” then it’s not winning to me anyway, no matter how beautiful the ocean view, or how smooth the granite countertops. It pained me to see this dishonest, manipulative person sitting at what seemed to me the winners’ table of life. When I learned that he got kicked out of his big position, and for the moment, is kicked out of his spot at the winners’ table, it was a big boost to my sense of self. The news suggested that there are “winners” who aren’t bending over backwards to stay connected to this man. Winning doesn’t always have to mean sucking some jerk’s d*ck (figuratively or otherwise).
One last example: in my research work/studies, there are lots of professors who will tell me and other students what they have to do to get a job, to move up, etc. The typical way to succeed is to find the most visibly successful prof, find a way to become their protegée, and do perfect work that makes them look good. Then they help get you in. This is all good, except that so many high-profile profs take advantage of their juniors’ need and require all kinds of boundary-busting behaviour from the junior in order to secure their support. There are always students willing to reshape themselves completely, and many of them do win positions, but by that time (to my mind) most of them have ceased to have any genuinely challenging thoughts. I guess it’s just selling out that I’m describing – people do it all the time.
“You have to ask yourself how quickly will you sell you out?” A good question, Natalie, for all aspects of life where we are trying to gain something. I don’t know how it can be avoided if one doesn’t know and love who that inner “you” is in the first place. All comes back to the self-love track, again, as usual!!
Polly
on 21/02/2012 at 8:17 am
Hi Magnolia
Interesting stuff
We have to be very very wary of men who will use and abuse their position to get their needs met. They are the very worst kinds of AC. The thrill of the initial attention from someone with status gives you a tremendous high but leaves you very vulnerable to manipulation and abuse – which they then use to their own ends. But like all assclownery it comes crashing down with a terrible low when they move on to the next one. The academic world is set up to facilitate ACs perfectly. BR women beware!
Mymble
on 21/02/2012 at 8:31 pm
Polly,
Yes strangely enough my MM/AC was an academic with a “reputation”, and I am disgusted with myself as to how flattered I was. How shallow. I know he’s got a huge narcissistic harem (I remember him mentioning his “fans”).
Arlena
on 21/02/2012 at 4:51 pm
Oh, Magnolia, don’t torture yourself with „HAVING TO LOVE“ your “cellulity legs” (or any other body part). Yes, self-love is vital. But: NOBODY is perfect and NO BODY is perfect. Beauty fades. Any woman will find at least one part she really doesn’t like, even super-models do! Maybe you feel like regarding your body parts as community or group members. There will always be one annoying idiot on board. Or: If your legs had ears they wouldn’t accept your “love” anyway knowing how much you had to force yourself to do so and keep struggling. Do you want an EU/AC relationship with your legs? They would know, even go NC on you. We learn to refuse crumbs. So would your legs. No thank you. 😉 Why not try a little friendship, at least sincere appreciation for them for walking you through life, carrying your weight and being at service whenever you walk from A to B. Love can’t be forced. I for example have tiny fingernails and look with envy on all those red-lacquered claws. My set was dealt to me, no “loving them” ever worked out. So what! Have mercy with your legs, be honest to them and admit that you won’t be able to love them. They will appreciate your honesty and carry you graciously whatsoever. Doesn’t that shed a new light on them?
Another thought: There is no way to become fully human when we are glued to the mirror. Actually it is a burden. When we reach past the age of looking like food, predators won’t see us! When nobody is starring at you, you can relax and take in the world around you. Others will love you or not – regardless of your opinion of yourself. That’s because your looks don’t belong to you, they belong to the beholder. So relax and thank you for all your input. x
Australia
on 22/02/2012 at 7:00 am
“Do you want an EU/AC relationship with your legs? They would know, even go NC on you.”
“Why not try a little friendship, at least sincere appreciation for them for walking you through life, carrying your weight and being at service whenever you walk from A to B. ”
” Others will love you or not – regardless of your opinion of yourself. ”
Arlena, you are fabulous and wonderful for writing those quotes. They have helped me today like you would not believe. As someone who struggles with my weight and food on a daily basis, with constant thoughts on how much I want to change my body, thank you for sharing your positivity. I should and will embrace my body for the beauty it is, for it does not reflect who I am as a person. Being out of control with my weight does not make me less worthy of having a positive, happy, mutual relationship.
Magnolia
on 22/02/2012 at 8:45 am
Ha ha Arlena! Do I want an EU relationship with my legs? Indeed, they might walk away from me if they could, after all the disapproval I send their way. And my much maligned butt would no doubt help them do it!
Oh, and when I think that I was so much harder on myself when I was twenty years younger … never good enough! I like your suggestion not to try and force anything. That I don’t have to suddenly fall in love with parts of me that I don’t want to. Nonetheless, I have been a jerk-off, looking at me always with the eyes of the imaginary man who will be disappointed when he sees x, y, z … thanks for making me laugh about it!
Natasha
on 21/02/2012 at 3:54 am
“…that they will find someone else, because they would have remained with you if only you’d done it. This is an illusion. What you need to actually focus on is the fact that they will find someone else to do what you don’t actually want to do (and will feel crappy about after doing) anyway.”
Oh Nat, that is so true. I could have literally laid around like a super-trendy doormat on my ex’s doorstep and you know what? He still wouldn’t have stuck with me. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and another chance and…he was still at the bar, trying to pick up girls. I was incensed! I had really put myself out there and been willing to give it a shot and this was the “thanks” I got?! In fact, one of the ways I was really able to get over him was to say to myself, “You know what? You did everything you could. You doled out all the chances you’re going to and this is who he is. It’s not your fault/your loss/your deficiencies, as it turns out.” I’ll still get pathetic texts from him every once in a while and I’d wager quite a bit on a guess that it’s happening when there are no available doormats around for him to walk on. Big loss for me right there! *Snicker*
p.s. That picture is classic. Ohmygod, the Flames of Desperation are not “hot” girls!
blueberry girl
on 21/02/2012 at 4:05 pm
“In fact, one of the ways I was really able to get over him was to say to myself, “You know what? You did everything you could. You doled out all the chances you’re going to and this is who he is. It’s not your fault/your loss/your deficiencies, as it turns out.”
Thanks, Natasha, just reading your words gave me comfort. So true, there comes a time when you have to throw in the towel and just let. it. be. I can’t move a mountain or get blood from a stone. I don’t have divine powers to make an alcoholic stop drinking and value me; I can’t make a married man leave his wife for me. The fault lies in my bad choices more than myself.
Natasha
on 21/02/2012 at 10:40 pm
Blueberry Girl, I’m so glad I could help 🙂 I love how you brought up that it’s our questionable choices, not our questionable SELVES! It really does help to get over it to realize this. Interestingly enough, I thought on my last go-around with this jackass, “Oh, well he treats me like crap because I’m not putting up enough boundaries and acting like I deserve respect.” So I put boundaries up (yes, this was basically moot because I gave him another shot, but still haha!) and guess what? Same sh*t, different day. There is no winning with these guys!
A
on 22/02/2012 at 9:31 pm
Exactly–these guys don’t treat women badly as a result of a woman’s poor boundaries, they do it because they’re a**holes. A decent man would not come along, notice a vulnerability, and then set about to use and abuse it. A woman with boundaries will get rid of one of these guys a lot sooner, but her boundaries will not miraculously result in him being a changed man who suddenly treats women with respect.
I liked this as well: “You did everything you could. You doled out all the chances you’re going to and this is who he is.” This same thought helped me as well–yes I’m sad to let go of it, but what more could I have done? As Nat has said, we can’t put all of the blame for the demise of a relationship on ourselves AND take full responsibility for making it work.
Wizzy
on 21/02/2012 at 5:02 am
“because you will gain far more out of standing by you”
Thank you for this Natalie, this line seriously jumps out at me.
Sugar and Spice
on 21/02/2012 at 5:27 am
“This” is what scares me: I don’t ever want to sell myself out again, not even in small ways. I have gained a tremendous amount of self-awareness and knowledge, and understanding, etc., but in that moment where my voice tells me a boundary is being busted, will I listen? Will I hear it? Will the voice be loud or soft? Will I walk the walk when I really like a guy?
I feel as if I’ve changed, and I know self-love, and I definitely take care of myself now; I feel my own power, but I still worry that in that moment…ughhhhhh, I just don’t know because I am still catching myself repeating bad habits, or getting ready to do something that is not in my best interest, and then self-correcting…you know, the application stage, and God help me if I get lost in my hormones, and act a fool for a man. It is that dang chemistry, drugged out–rose colored glasses that I fear.
And, there is this man at my church that I am interested in, and I think he is interested in me, and I am trying not to think about him, or fantasize about him, but dang it, he makes me smile;yet, I still haven’t created my own life yet, so I’ve decided that I just won’t date until I am fulfilled on my own, but if this man asks me out, I will probably go, so I just run away from him every time I see him coming, and I guess I will keep running from anyone that I feel that pull of attraction for until I have my own life, and I can trust myself enough…wish I was stronger, but I don’t know that I am, and I just won’t risk my progress because I really want my own life and my own happiness, and then I want to be able to say, “come share my world,” not ” come be my world” as I did in the past.
Magnolia
on 21/02/2012 at 8:42 am
“I just won’t risk my progress because I really want my own life and my own happiness, and then I want to be able to say, “come share my world,” not ” come be my world” as I did in the past.”
Wise words, Sugar and Spice. It sucks to turn down a guy in the moment for the long-term of building up YOU, but I’ve done the trying to be fulfilled by a guy thing so many times, and have felt the embarrassment and insecurity of someone seeing how I’m not fully engaged in my own life, and trying to pretend I do, that I just don’t want to go down that road anymore.
I have been taking some risks with work recently – I just went and presented poetry research to a bunch of scientists this weekend, and LOVED the experience. I looked around the room at one of the panels, and wondered, how is everyone’s love life here? Who is looking for a shag at this conference, and who is missing being away from their family? It’s hard to explain, but the whole sense of where a family life fits into my whole life seemed different when I was in a space where I felt like I was fully engaged with my career, and wanted to work with people around me.
Maybe it’s not career that you’re looking for, but I relate to wanting your own full life before being drawn into someone else’s. Before, when I found a guy I liked, I felt pulled off course, like I was a feather in the breeze. Lately I feel more like my life has a track, I’m moving along in it with some momentum and weight. It would take something pretty major, or someone pretty great, to move me off of it.
grace
on 21/02/2012 at 10:37 am
Magnolia
The right man won’t pull you off track. He will encourage you on it, and walk beside you. You won’t have to be a less-than-Magnolia to have that; you will be fully yourself.
You’re going to get that. I know you are.
EllyB
on 21/02/2012 at 10:38 pm
There’s a guy, a business contact, who always seemed to somewhat fancy me, and during the past weeks, I’ve called him a little bit more frequently than before. We always talked about business only, but my two most recent calls he didn’t take. They got forwarded to their assistant instead, and she passed me to someone else on his team (I didn’t ask for him in particular).
This made me wonder: Is he ignoring me because I’m bothering him too much??? Anyway, if that had been the case, I should have just heeded the message and “flushed” him I guess. Nothing to beat myself up over, in any case! More likely, he was simply not in his office or busy.
Today, unexpectedly, he was on the phone again, again for business, but before we ended the call, he started what sounded a lot like (light) flirting. Only, I wasn’t in the mood, because my mind was occupied with some important, complicated, exciting and urgent project. I chatted with him for a while anyway, but only half-heartedly.
Afterwards, I wondered: Why didn’t I feel more comfortable? Because he flirted (Grace, I get your point that flirting in itself might be questionable)? Because I am EU? Because there might have been some red flags I ignored (although none comes to mind so far)?
Or maybe just because my mind was on the project? I think this is quite possible, too. As a child, I was always expected to focus COMPLETELY on my parents (whenever they wanted an ego boost or felt the urge to abuse me – otherwise they ignored me and didn’t want to be bothered!), but I guess this isn’t normal anyway. It’s okay if my mind is occupied with things that have nothing to do with a particular person.
On the other hand, maybe there was really something about his behavior my subconscious mind didn’t like, but at this point, I’m unable to tell. But I guess it’s okay to take my time to judge.
I have to remind myself that guys shouldn’t take that much brain space. Either we get on well together, or not. If I can’t stay true to myself, it’s not worth it.
grace
on 22/02/2012 at 11:52 am
Elle
I am painfully aware that I am not living what I’m about to say next but:
This is not a big deal. He hasn’t done anything wrong. Flriting per se is not a red flag. I just no longer see it is a sign of Definite Interest. Some people just flirt. Babies do it!
While it’s too early to see him as relationship material, it’s also way too early to yell FLUSH.
If we are hesitant – isn’t he allowed to be hesitant too? If we feel we have put ourselves out there and he hasn’t responded, isn’t he allowed to feel that too? The problem with expecting men to do all the chasing is that we attract – chasers. And chasers are no longer interested when they’ve caught you.
I’ve been seeking advice from women I know in long-term relationships/marriages who are not FBGs or even ex-FBGs. They’ve been telling me – “Make sure he knows you like him. He won’t make a move unless he knows you won’t turn him down. It takes a lot for a man to approach a woman”.
So I can’t ignore him and play hard to get? I can’t play it cool? No – that’s the fast track to AC central.
I’m not saying you should pursue him or even ask him out but don’t expect him to charm you, flatter you, chase you or even try to get you into bed within x hours. We’re done with that. We want the men who are not so eager to call the shots.
How do so many of our FBG stories begin:
“He pursued me … he was so charming …”
We all know what happens next!
I don’t think decent men are that good at seducing women, they haven’t had the practice or they just don’t want to. It has to be more mutual, and that means extending ourselves.
EllyB
on 22/02/2012 at 1:58 pm
@Grace: I’m sure you’re right. My somewhat awkward calls once or twice a week (“Hi, it’s Elly again. I was wondering whether you could tell me…” – but I always made sure I had a good excuse!) were an attempt to let him know I might be interested without pushing things. When he started flirting with me, I took it as a signal he got the message. We seem to be two people who don’t know each other well, but who might be interested in each other. It’s nothing more than a remote possibility right now, but I guess that’s the way such things often work (between “normal” people, that is).
Too bad I wasn’t in the mood for flirting, but I think those things just happen (btw, yesterday’s project went well, and I received a lot of praise for it!). I guess I could simply call him again in a few days when I feel like it (with another good excuse). If it feels right, I could try to chat with him a little, maybe referring to our last conversation in some way.
Unfortunately, there is so much uncertainty to deal with. Horrible! LOL. I guess this is exactly what I need to work on, learning how to deal with uncertainty. Thanks for reminding me!
Heavy pursuing would be wrong, I’m completely agree. I would take it as a red flag now!
allie
on 22/02/2012 at 6:52 pm
@ Grace
“If we are hesitant – isn’t he allowed to be hesitant too?”
Precisly what I am going through righ now. Went to a date with a guy at met at an christian online dating site. He was super nice, gentleman ( he open doors, etc. ), pay for all bills, lunch and movie and snacks, wow, I have been in assclownville so long that didn’t remember how that feel :).
Anyway, he had texted me a few times since, and last weekend was the week and weekend he has his son so I knew in advance he would be busy, anyhow he text me a couple of times. Of course I would like to have another date, but as you said, he is also allowed to be hesitant and I don’t need to freak out. Hopefully we will be seeing each other again. He said he would even go shopping with me, house stuff shopping, since I am buying a new home.
Magnolia
on 22/02/2012 at 8:47 am
good point, grace!!
Sugar and Spice
on 21/02/2012 at 11:02 pm
“I have been taking some risks with work recently – I just went and presented poetry research to a bunch of scientists this weekend, and LOVED the experience.
…..
Lately I feel more like my life has a track, I’m moving along in it with some momentum and weight. ”
That’s fabulous Magnolia! When I read this, it made me smile. Thank you for sharing your successes. It is sooooooooo inspiring to me; it really gives me hope because I soooooooooooo want to feel the way you feel. …live this way…. 🙂 🙂
NCC
on 22/02/2012 at 1:01 am
Wow, “come share my world” not “come be my world.”
I’m going to print this out and put it up around my house. I know that part of what hurts so bad with these ACs too is that they don’t want to share my world…so then, instead of telling them to get lost, I feel so worthless and unlovable, I twist myself inside out to get them to BE my world, to give me that love and attention, even if it’s negative attention. I give up so quickly on believing I have worth, I lose any sight of myself, that MY interests and MY time are just as important as his, that I spiral down into depression, self loathing, agony, and all the while just pretty much begging him to build me back up. Natalie talks about “you’re not going crazy, but you feel like you are” so much, this is exactly what happens to me. I’ve done better with not spiriling….but if I’m totally honest, the extreme episodes have come about lately. ACs never really have more than maybe one foot in the relationship, so they never really had my world in mind, that was NEVER a priority, that was NEVER their plan. Then the minute I act “needy” as the AC says, he tells me I need to get a life of my own. Then…I feel even worse. God it’s so debilitating.
chelsea
on 21/02/2012 at 5:52 am
oh man i swear your posts usually coincide with what im thinking or struggling in my head.
there are times when i feel kinda sad that im not part of my x’s life , the last thing he tried to do for me was offer me job positions etc etc but i made the decision to turn it down and cut contact with him. Its been a year since and this blog helped me alot in keeping my sanity and getting my self in check.
My relationship with that x was dependent, even after we broke up we still had moments where we fooled around and hooked up until I couldn’t put up with the casual arrangement. It was totally messing with my head , the last straw must have been when i told him i didn’t like the FWB set up and for a while he did back off … but then eventually he came around asking when we could “screw again ” and for a time being I kinda played along with it but finally pretty much put my foot down.
Now that i’m a year in NC i would still have those times where i feel like ” If only i would have let it slip and we were still screw buddies at least i really wont be lonely” then i come back to my senses and remind myself that i deserve so much more and that i really need to knock him down the pedestal.
A huge part of me is so thankful I broke that pattern and i can’t believe i was so insecure that i let stuff like that happen … i deserve so much better and iam still learning healthy ways to approach things and this blog helped me so much!
tired_of_assanova
on 21/02/2012 at 12:40 pm
Now that i’m a year in NC i would still have those times where i feel like ” If only i would have let it slip and we were still screw buddies at least i really wont be lonely” then i come back to my senses and remind myself that i deserve so much more and that i really need to knock him down the pedestal.
Oh dear. I’m soooo embarrassed to admit that after sleeping with them and them disappearing for a little while, I got managed right down to hug friend- that’s right. No sex, no kissing. I could go over on the weekend and get hugs – that was it. Then all these texts would come on my phone for ego strokes and I’d wonder if I’d just hung around a bit more they’d choose me.
And yes, I had started wondering if it were possible to have a relationship without sex, if I had just had stayed around for hugs, well at least that surely was something wasn’t it? Maybe that might grow? Then I reminded myself that I did not want to be around to see the next person arrive on scene AND I was being treated like some kind of PET!
Ugh, I cannot believe I went that low!
Biggest mistake ever!
Won’t be doing that again – FLUSH!
P.
on 21/02/2012 at 6:22 pm
How about being that pet? or a “pet project”? Yep, Project P., and when I asked what he meant, he said: “Oh, nothing…” And maybe he even meant well? Or maybe he got other “benefits” from Project P. ? Is this a cringe day or what?
Polly
on 21/02/2012 at 11:09 pm
I went through EXACTLY the same experience Tired. And I waited around for the next person to be offered what got withdrawn from me. Only then I bailed. Wish I did it before. Makes me really mad at myself . They all need flushing down a very large and smelly toilet…like the one in Trainspotting
tired_of_assanova
on 22/02/2012 at 9:19 am
Wow, really? That’s amazing! I thought I was the only one settling for cuddle crumbs. How bad is that? I was so deluded!
Polly
on 22/02/2012 at 8:01 pm
Yep it’s bad alright. Cuddle crumbes done deliberately to make you feel like you are not quite attractive enough. I was made to feel like it was my fault that he had issues with physical intimacy with me. I’m sure there are 1000s of men who don’t want sex with me – but they don’t try and have a relationship with me either! It is just another way to control you.
FLUSHHHHHHHHH!
Tea Cozy
on 21/02/2012 at 10:31 pm
‘Now that i’m a year in NC i would still have those times where i feel like ” If only i would have let it slip and we were still screw buddies at least i really wont be lonely” then i come back to my senses and remind myself that i deserve so much more and that i really need to knock him down the pedestal. ‘
I know this line of thinking well. I’ve caught myself doing internal bargaining: “Well, maaaaybe if we just keep it to kissing and cuddling, I’d be OK with it.” Yeah, right!
What helps me — in addition to reminding myself that I deserve more, as you’ve stated — is to think about how extra-lonely I’d feel after a casual shag. That hollowed-out, depleted feeling….shudder. It’s much worse than going without.
yoghurt
on 22/02/2012 at 12:01 am
“Now that i’m a year in NC i would still have those times where i feel like ” If only i would have let it slip and we were still screw buddies at least i really wont be lonely” then i come back to my senses and remind myself that i deserve so much more and that i really need to knock him down the pedestal.”
I have times like that still – and I made my big stand in 2010. It does sometimes feel as though the universe has punished me severely for having boundaries… er no, it’s punished me severely for letting people who had no respect for my boundaries take so much power in my life.
I’m having a bad week with everything this week, Nat’s post has come at a really good time – I HAVE to stick to what I know is true and what I believe is right. I do NOT want a future in which I have to act in a shitty way or accept shitty behaviour.
A K
on 21/02/2012 at 9:43 am
I love the timing of this one. I was so confused and afraid of standing up for myself and doing what i felt was right ,because I might lose this person. truth is i never really had the guy, and the shitty part is I was chasing what were crumbs. I did something and felt foolish. Love shouldn’t make you feel foolish.
colororange
on 21/02/2012 at 2:09 pm
I really need some input on this. I did some things recently I am not proud of (I’ve done many things in my past too, I’m not proud of) all for the sake of getting the “win”. I was afraid if I did not participate in what he wanted that I would lose him. And I thought “this time would be different” (the many times I’ve told myself that one!) I ended up doing whatever he wanted hoping for something…… I’d been taught having boundaries or saying NO is not acceptable and people leave when you do that. So I have let others walk all over me and use me for their gratification until they find the next one.
In some situations I ended up being verbally abused and recently, I can see I’ve only diminished what self-respect I had and it looks as though I’m losing anyway (again). From the start, my instinct told me I was going too far for my comfort zone but I paid no attention. I talked myself into doing something to please him. I sent mixed messages, yes. I saw that other people were doing it too and told myself it’s alright if I do it too. Something must be wrong with me if I can’t do it. If these other people are doing it and they seem fine with it, then it’s fine. In the end, I felt crummy about myself and used. I busted up a boundary I had, I went too far for what is good for me and now I’m dealing with the embarrassment of it. And it was all to keep someone around! My question is if so many people are doing this one thing and I find I am uncomfortable with it, then does that mean something is wrong with me? That I need to “loosen up”? And should I do it anyway to “teach” myself to be ok with it? I can’t really say what it is because it’s embarrassing but I hope the point of my question is still clear.
grace
on 21/02/2012 at 8:01 pm
coloro
Are you taking a dating break? I think you should because your lack of boundaries could put you in danger. It’s quite worrying.
I don’t know what sex act you are referring to but if there’s one thing in life that should be mutual, surely it’s sex?
You’re a woman. He’s supposed to cherish and protect you, not force you to do stuff you don’t want to do.
blueberry girl
on 21/02/2012 at 8:09 pm
My dear colororange,
In my wisdom of advanced age (ahem), I’ve discovered that it’s best not to give a rat’s ass whether someone else is doing something or not.
You don’t need to “loosen up” or get with the program or morph and contort to please anyone.
Your very words: “I’ve only diminished what self-respect I had and it looks as though I’m losing anyway (again)” and “I felt crummy about myself and used,” tell me this is a boundary you ought not to cross again. Trust your gut; it’s giving you the correct answer.
Magnolia
on 21/02/2012 at 8:36 pm
“My question is if so many people are doing this one thing and I find I am uncomfortable with it, then does that mean something is wrong with me? That I need to “loosen up”? And should I do it anyway to “teach” myself to be ok with it?”
Color – I think you know the answer to this question. I’m more interested in why you have to check with us to get your answer. Who, short of legislators, can tell you what you can and can’t do? And more to the point, who should control what you will and won’t do?
One of my best gfs is not comfortable giving head. She’s got the best marriage I know of, of most of my friends. She just found herself a guy who doesn’t care, or at least doesn’t care enough to let her go or try to convince her to like something she doesn’t.
When I was in my won’t-shave-my-legs phase (talk about something everyone else seems ‘fine’ with), I simply ended up with guys who didn’t give a crap about whether my legs were shaved. (I remember the first guy who gave me grief about my bikini area. I was like, wtf? You can’t criticize that!!)
I understand that these days, housewives are taking pole-dance-while-having-anal-sex-with-your-dog classes at the local fitness studio, but whatever. There are men out there with a clue enough to appreciate a decent woman happy to simply take her clothes off with them.
Do whatcha like, color, as the hiphop heroes used to say. Just don’t apologize for choosing to have boundaries.
SM
on 21/02/2012 at 11:36 pm
Magnolia “I understand that these days, housewives are taking pole-dance-while-having-anal-sex-with-your-dog classes at the local fitness studio, but whatever.” No truer words have ever been spoken. My sister has been married for 25 years and is a very upstanding compassionate Christian woman. I would absolutely HATE it if she became single and had to put up with the worldly crap/standard us single ladies are expected to cow tow to. That’s why I am so grateful for this website and the ladies here that ‘opting’ out of all this bullsh-t!
tired_of_assanova
on 21/02/2012 at 10:24 pm
I talked myself into doing something to please him. I sent mixed messages, yes. I saw that other people were doing it too and told myself it’s alright if I do it too. Something must be wrong with me if I can’t do it. If these other people are doing it and they seem fine with it, then it’s fine. In the end, I felt crummy about myself and used.
I’ve been reading stuff on wiki…
Information cascade is commonly seen in groups under immediate stress from external forces, such as in herd behavior[2]. The effect is to cause group decisions based on few signals and can often be against what the individual believes to be true. Because it is usually sensible to do what other people are doing, the phenomenon is assumed to be the result of rational choice.
Bottom line – if you surround yourself with unhealthy people, with unhealthy beliefs, you may well normalise and then override yourself / your internal alarms to give yourself and edge because ‘other people do it’. I used to ask all my friends of what I should do in situation X, much of the time their advice was not that great.
Crowds can be irrational – I’ve lost count of the number of people who are only too happy to spill out hurt stories 101 about their bastard/psycho ex. Getting burnt from casual is actually more common than I thought – I know at least three or four people that got burnt this way.
Yeah, and the AC told me that “I think it’s the norm to date multiple people”. Ha! FLUSH!
SM
on 22/02/2012 at 5:22 pm
Tired, I dont ask my friends advice on anything anymore. They are all either FBG’s, EU’s, or any number of the things we list that we dislike on BR that we have actually done ourselves. We are all trying to make better choices in dating but I’m the only one who seeked therapy, group sessions and regularly read BR to keep myself in check. I remember when my last ac broke up with me and 2 days later called to say he’d made a big mistake. Everyone but me thought I should give him another chance, so guess what, I did. No more, I only listen to me now and me only. If I’m wrong so be it but at least I dont have a host of FBG’s giving me advice.
tired_of_assanova
on 22/02/2012 at 9:48 pm
Social conformity is extremely powerful
See this video – there is clearly nothing there, no rope – but even when people SEE that, they override their own judgement and act as if something is present. Amazing!
This thing, whatever it is, how can you be *sure* all other people are doing it? Perhaps they’re not. Did this guy tell you that ‘everyone does it’? (if so, I would suspect this was designed to make you feel like the oddity if you don’t do it). I can tell you something for sure – whatever this thing is, I am not doing it! (and I am one of ‘everybody else’)
That aside, and as has already been said, it doesn’t matter if the whole world is doing it (which I doubt very much!), that doesn’t mean you need to follow. Another thought… if ‘everybody else is doing it’ maybe they are only doing it cos they also think everybody else is doing it!? Point is, what you think or are being told everybody else is doing (which they will not be) is neither here nor there because you are not ‘everybody else’ – you are you.
P.
on 21/02/2012 at 11:21 pm
What could it be? I have no idea; it would be helpful if you hinted, CO… I was told a few times: “Oh, everyone is sleeping with someone while they are waiting for the right person to appear, if you don’t do that, you are narrowing your choices.” After a while I started doubting myself – should I have gone on the date, anyway? But the guy clearly had a FWB and even said he would be “willing to give her up” when “something better came along”. I just could not do that even though he was interesting, educated, legally single (other than the casual relationship, ha ha.)
Tea Cozy
on 22/02/2012 at 12:13 am
colororange, have you had a chance to read NML’s “I am not that woman” post? It’s immensely self-affirming, and speaks to the issue you raise.
I re-read it regularly. It helps inoculate me against guys who try to pull that nonsense about “B-b-but all those OTHER women are willing to do [X, Y, or Z]. Why won’t YOU?”
We are not those women!
katy
on 22/02/2012 at 2:47 pm
I had a man i was in a casual relationship with tell me he’d love to see another man have sex with me. he never pressured me to do anything but it didn’t matter, to me the damage was done in the words. It hurt like crazy because I had feelings for him. I considered doing it, I wanted to make him happy, and some people told me “some guys are just into that” I didn’t want it to be the guy I was with! I wanted him to want me to himself. I never ended up doing it, and I don’t judge anyones lifestyle. but to me, that is the ultimate in detatched sex.
katy
on 21/02/2012 at 2:34 pm
i did this as well, only I am embarrassed that it wasn’t even “dating”. they were casual situations that I thought if i was very available for sex, let them know I couldn’t wait to see again, and was not demanding that it would pay off for me and I would “win” them for being so low maintenance. That seriously backfired on me and them when I wouldn’t take the hint to back off and became “high” maintenance . I kind of felt cheated. Like I gave up so much to be available to you, why can’t I get attention when *i* need it! that never works , i have tried it over and over for 3 years( yes, very slow learner)
tired_of_assanova
on 21/02/2012 at 10:28 pm
You can’t sex them into commitment, you really can’t. If that were true, hookers would be so popular to have LTR with and would be relationship experts – clearly they aren’t.
mymble
on 21/02/2012 at 3:28 pm
“Just like fear means it’s not happening, if you genuinely fear that they’ll be offski if you don’t acquiesce or jump on their requests like an eager beaver intern, it means that whatever idea you have for a relationship isn’t happening or going to happen either.”
I still get the urge to make contact, yet, when I imagine meeting or seeing him again, what I feel is fear and anxiety. Even though he never said a cross word, made a disparaging remark, or failed to turn up/call/email when he said he would. He prided himself on being sensitive, cultured, feminist etc. His whole career was built on his ethical credentials and caring for the victim and the underdog. But underlying it all, he had complete contempt for me, that realisation crept up on me, I don’t know quite how I came to know it, but I did. I was for some time trying to turn it round, including degrading sexual behaviour.
The most awful time was the last moment I saw him at the train station, he went to kiss me goodbye (I had already said, in a lame and hesitant way, it was over, sort of) and I pushed him away, and I could see in his healthy, well nourished face (I myself was ill) he Did.Not.Give.A.Shit.
grace
on 22/02/2012 at 9:49 am
mymble
When I was sunk in the anxiety and depression brought on by the playa, he sent me a text inviting me to … an orgy.
You’re right – they don’t give a shit. And the more you bust your own boundaries, the less they care. They start to behave like wolves, though that’s an insult to wolves.
I didn’t go to the orgy by the way. Whatever happened to a nice walk in the park?
mymble
on 22/02/2012 at 11:52 am
Grace,
Wasn’t that, although he had made wistful remarks about threesomes, so perhaps if I had stuck around I’d have received an invitation to one of those too.
My friend has a saying “Don’t wag your tail”, by which she means keep your dignity and don’t try too hard – in the contexts of social situations – but it applies equally in relationships.
I wagged my tail so hard it nearly dropped off.
free_at_last
on 21/02/2012 at 5:26 pm
Just finally severed ties FOR GOOD with my beloved AC and I found myself in that kinda sad, nostalgic mood this morning, thinking about the “good” times, which has tripped me up in the past. This post was such a welcome kick in the pants back to reality. Thank you, Natalie.
My particular AC was a MM who told me he’d be leaving his wife by X date, which of course never came to fruition. As the date passed and I chose not to hold firm to my “I’m outta here if you don’t leave” threat, he started pushing boundaries further and further sexually. His objective was to score a 3-way and he started leveraging him moving out as the incentive to get me to participate in one. Any chance he got, he’d bring up how I should proposition one of my friends to join us, and it got to the point where he wasn’t even offering to move out, just to move UP the date when he would. AND, as an “extra” incentive this jerk started only being interested in hanging out when there was the possiblity of one of my friends joining us. Thank God I never went through with it, because I know I still wouldn’t “have” him, and now I wouldn’t have my dignity, either. I wish I were making this up. But writing it out REALLY helps me to once again see why I should not be pining away for this guy. He pushed my boundaries any way he could. So thankful he’s out of my life now.
ixnay
on 21/02/2012 at 11:25 pm
Guy tries to leverage your desire for a monogamous relationship with him into you having a 3-way with him while he’s married to someone else. Horrible, manipulative, opportunistic, disrespectful, immature USER. I am so angry on your behalf! And so glad you took your power back. What’s next, he’s going to threaten his wife he’ll leave her if she doesn’t agree to “swing” with him? What’s with disrespecting an intimate human connection with these puerile, porn-fed, selfish demands.
free_at_last
on 22/02/2012 at 7:47 pm
Thanks ixnay, I’m angry for myself! And I don’t think you’re too far off the mark. Right before I told him to get lost for good, he had the nerve to suggest that I hit up HIS WIFE for a girl-on-girl romp. She’d found texts/emails from us so she was on to him, and he said he thought it would give him the leverage he needed to be able to leave her without having to pay alimony since she would be a “cheater” then, too. Also, he thought it would make a good cover story, that I’d actually contacted him because I was interested in being with her and was curious if she “swung” that way. Of course the woman hated me and I can’t imagine how horribly that would have gone had I been foolish enough to approach her. But he didn’t care, no skin off his back — he had nothing to lose, and if she’d agreed to it, he asked if he would be able to watch. Sick F***. So, so, sooooo glad to be done with his AC ways!
Jasmine
on 21/02/2012 at 5:58 pm
Nat,
Over the last two years I have taken to bookmarking or printing out the BR posts that are most relevant to me… and this by far has to be one of the most applicable to my once very broken understanding of how to function in relationships (that were not functional). It’s funny how, certain behaviours and values are now unquestionably deal breakers for me, where once I would have tried to make it work no matter what, and even when I was “successful” I wasn’t happy. I felt devalued and disrespected, not only by my partner but (I eventually came to understand) by myself!
After the relationships ended, I’d be stuck in “shoulda coulda woulda” land… for something that I didn’t even WANT!!!!! I had had the relationships, but at what cost? By the end of the last one I was having heart palpitations… at what point do I say “WTF are you doing to yourself Jasmine?!” Anyhow…
Thanks again! Your advice and insight is priceless 🙂
assclown b gone
on 21/02/2012 at 6:05 pm
So true, so true. You have hit the nail on the head here. I pretended (the operative word there) I was cool with so much crap – him being an hour late all the time, him not committing, him lying and me pretending he wasn’t. All so that I could seem “cool” and “not demanding”. He walked in the door saying he was commitment phobic, and that was why he was still single (AND LIVING WITH HIS MOTHER!!) at age 41, having never had a serious relationship. Ever. How many red flags can you count in that sentence alone (it’s the assclown version of “Where’s Waldo”).
I can no longer pretend (there’s that word again) that I did it because I was low maintenance or easy going. I was just easy, as in so desperate, I thought if I didn’t scare him off, I would win. What would I have won? A lying assclown who lives with his mother and treats women like dirt. No, no, ladies….I saw him first.
Just shoot me now.
Magnolia
on 22/02/2012 at 8:56 am
ABG, your last lines have made me laugh three different times today! Sounds like you at least have some humour about your mistakes. Not so long ago, I might have arm-wrassled ya for ‘im!!
Broadsided
on 21/02/2012 at 6:30 pm
Totally agree with that. Key phrase being “don’t really want to do,” or doesn’t feel good to you. Another extreme is a guy being willing to leave you because you do certain things…..without discussing them with you, first – to see if they are things you don’t do or aren’t willing to do – or whether sure, you can easily accommodate that. (For instance, one guy was extremely irked – he’s a very tall man – that there were cobwebs at the top of my porch, and that “I didn’t even notice”. For crissakes, say something! He finally did, I got out there with a broom, nice to have them gone. Poof. I am short and did not look up, LOL.)
I used to do more of that sell-out behavior to keep guys and “adapt” to them when I was young. Now that I’m older….uh….no!
ixnay
on 21/02/2012 at 11:33 pm
Keep the cobwebs. It’s the “cobweb test.” The keeper is the guy who walks into the cobwebs and starts laughing.
I went out with this guy briefly… he was terrific, but logistically unavailable (leaving town). Anyhow, he comes over and I’ve got very little in the house, offer him some corn chips, and then realize they are totally stale. He’s like, corn chips are always good, thanks. He did not go off on me about my lifestyle or lack of culinary skills or where’s the homemade salsa to wash down these stale chips. Like my recent ex, who sneeringly recited the ingredients of the hot sauce I had out: “First you serve me *eggs*, and then you expect me to put this shit on them?” Being on the edge of tears or panic all the time is not love.
Sarah T
on 21/02/2012 at 6:34 pm
Colororange
I don’t think it matters what the subject of your embarrassment is. I can relate as I accepted a shady character into my life years ago and did plenty of things that I couldnt tell my closest friend about! I bust a shedload of boundaries in the interest of keeping the guy. He had plenty of other girls and guys willing to participate so I tried to match them and convince myself I was just experimenting. My gut said otherwise and I tied myself in knots not wanting to rock the boat and ‘lose’ the guy. He’d accuse me of being childish if I couldn’t accept an open relationship. He’d say I had trust issues when I questioned the sexual health of his other chosen ones and I competed for his attention as though he was a prize worth winning at the risk to my mental and physical well-being. Bottom line is is that if it makes you uncomfortable, even if the world and his wives are doing it, then its not right for YOU. That situation made me feel weak, disabled in some way and that I was missing out. Unsurprisingly, I felt stronger, able and fulfilled once I broke the spell and saw him for what he was. Just a f..ked up guy who wanted it all and would take what he could get.
Stay true to you. By all means, experiment, but if every fibre in your body says somethings not right, bail…sharpish!
Xxx
tired_of_assanova
on 22/02/2012 at 9:27 am
I think part of this crossing our own boundaries comes down to overvaluing sex, having disproportionate responses and hoping that if we just give them the BIGGEST orgasm they’ll put us on their honour roll and we’ll magically get 1st place for LTR (magical thinking).
How many of us are guilty of trying to put on the best sex ever to sex Mr Unavailable
into commitment and make that our ‘point of difference’
If you have sex and attach any of these meanings and:
1) Start imagining your future
2) Respond back by pouring out your feelings
3) Invite them around for more shags
4) Cancel your plans or put everything on hold
5) Go into a tailspin and begin ruminating about what it all means, the Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda and yada yada yada
6) Call and keep calling in the hope they’ll pick up
7) Dump your current partner
8. Turn up at their home/office/place where they hang
9) Tell them all about themselves, or
10) Contact their new partner,
you’ve had a seriously disproportionate response.
You are experiencing high intensity emotions/rumination or engaging in high level action for low level contact and effort.
mymble
on 22/02/2012 at 1:53 pm
Plead guilty to numbers 1 through 5 inclusive.
jasmine
on 22/02/2012 at 4:28 pm
i too plead guilty from numbers 1-5…
Magnolia
on 22/02/2012 at 6:29 pm
Well, I hope you’d gently dump your current partner if you’re out shagging someone else! For the partner’s sake!
Stephanie
on 22/02/2012 at 8:06 pm
Guilty of 1-5 also!
Helsbels
on 21/02/2012 at 11:24 pm
I recently went on a date with a guy who was friends with the guy my friend was seeing. I’d met him once and we all went out the following week. We had a great night and he was very tactile with me all evening and I must admit it felt pretty good. He’s a nice looking guy.
I was pretty suspicious though that he was after sex and tempting though it was I’d made up my mind it wasn’t happening.
We all got a cab back to mine and the guys stayed over.
He did try it on but got nowhere, I didn’t give in. In the morning he left with his friend without taking my number or asking to see me again…..surprise, surprise!
I felt quite empowered because I could have quite easily been the victim of a one night stand! If I had slept with him he probably would still have buggered off without taking my number! And then I’d have felt really crap!
So yeah….you should definitely NOT bust your boundaries!!
MeToo
on 21/02/2012 at 11:34 pm
BGirl I feel the same way. Have been reading posts for 4 months now. Have never posted before. But yours made me finally write. I did this for 8 unbelievable years. Finally feeling better after BR. Damn wish I had this years ago. NC and getting better.
MeToo
on 21/02/2012 at 11:38 pm
And I’m so thankful for all of you!. I’m doing so much better because your stories have helped me to be strong.
runnergirlno1
on 22/02/2012 at 2:51 am
Wow all, these are some seriously brilliant, sad, and tremendously helpful comments. Every time I read Natalie’s posts, it’s like you are peeking over my back fence, that’s okay btw. Then I read all of your comments and it’s like you are all here. I identify with every comment.
It’s spring here, the weather is warm, I live two miles from the beach…thus you are welcome here any time. I’ve ousted all of the shady characters out of my house, so there is room!
It’s odd though, once the shady characters have been booted to the curb, I’ve been faced with just me. I’ve been the hardest case for me to win. I’m gambling on me now. Based on my former bad bets, there’s only one good bet left…me!
Tinkerbell
on 22/02/2012 at 5:18 am
Hi All,
It’s going on 12am and I’ve been sitting here reading all of your stories, some of which have had my mouth agape. I am >6months NC from a MM. I’ve learned so much via BR and self-help materials. As a result I’ve changed alot and still feel myself changing. I used to be so open, honest, trusting, had NO filters or boundaries. Being a person of extremes, I find that now I’m leaning far to the right. Now, I’m tough, brash, overly skeptical and cynical almost as if I’m unconsciously at war with the opposite sex. I feel that the potential of finding someone truly sincere, honest, loyal and loving is just not possible. I’m beginning to really accept being alone as my self-esteem soars higher and higher. I’ve clearly run out of patience with men and their BS and am feeling above and beyond all the angst of trying to have a wholesome relationship. I was reading tonight on another website that I post on regularly (about unhealthy relationships) and tonight have decided I don’t want to participate any longer. Then, coming here to BR, I’m not feeling much different. Somehow, I’m feeling a huge shift in my mentality and I know it is for the good. Like you all and Natalie, I’ve been through hell and back with men and now I’m just tired. I’ve run out of steam. The bad thing about all this is that if the “right” guy were to finally show up, I wouldn’t even recognize him as “right” for me. I’ve always been a person of great resiliance but this last relationship has really taken all the stuffing out of me. I’ve become the EUF. But, at least it won’t be hurting anyone else because I’m at the point of writing men off period. I’m finally accepting that I may continue to be alone, so my entire concentration is on being content in my own skin. I’ve seen it happen time and time again — when you stop looking and feel strong enough to go it alone and be happy, he’ll show up. If he does I just hope I’ll be able to appreciate him because I really don’t give damn anymore. Over and out.
grace
on 22/02/2012 at 9:44 am
Tinkerbell
I think most of us go through the cynical, defensive stage. And then the “I’m happy to be single for the rest of my life” stage. Then, as you say, we meet someone. I heard this very story from a woman who met “the one” in her 50s after divorce from a long abusive marriage, and after she’d completely committed herself to singledom.
There’s no rush, enjoy being AC-free and being single. It’s a good time. When you discover the wholeness and completeness in yourself, you’ll be ready for whatever life has in store for you, which may or may not include a man.
There are plenty of good men out there. All my life they have been right under my nose but I was only interested in the asshats.
EllyB
on 22/02/2012 at 10:52 am
@Grace: “There are plenty of good men out there. All my life they have been right under my nose but I was only interested in the asshats.” Sounds all too familiar to me.
The business contact I’m mentioning above – years ago, he tried to do me a favour (giving some useful information to me), but his boss, who was also present, didn’t approve. The boss gave a not-so-subtle hint to the guy to shut up, which he (reluctantly) did. I still remember that incident quite clearly. But what did I think about the guy back then? I considered him a loser, because in my book (back then) his boss made him look like a fool.
A loser, because he wanted to do me a favour his boss didn’t approve of? I think that says a lot about my (former) self.
I’m ashamed.
I think I can stop wondering why I managed to miss out on many good men. After all, I worked incredibly hard at misjudging and ignoring them!
EllyB
on 22/02/2012 at 10:33 pm
I think this has something to do with the fact that as a child, for so many years I tried to find something good in my narcissistic mother. At some point, I simply gave up, because it was so obviously hopeless.
Instead, I told myself the goodness I was longing for simply didn’t exist in any human being. Whenever I encountered signs of it in other people, I felt the urge to explain them away (is that the right word?). It was like… goodness became unbearable to me. That which must not, can not be.
ner
on 24/02/2012 at 3:07 am
grace, so good your post!!!
Little Star
on 24/02/2012 at 2:18 am
Tinkerbell, you are not alone….I feel exactly the same….What I find difficult is to trust men. I just cannot trust them any more. I tried really hard for the past three months, go to dates and meet new people…but yet again, they brought only pain and disappointment! I cant deal with it any more, I rather be single and pain free, as I do not believe that one day I will be lucky enough to meet my Right man:-(
Dee-Dee
on 22/02/2012 at 5:08 pm
“what kind of prize could you possibly be winning by doing things, not because you want to, but to compete to get someone who really just isn’t that special?”
This is exactly right! In college in knew a few women (besides myself) who were hell bent on “winning” their men. Years later they are miserable. They good feeling they had at winning has given way to real life. Taking care of kids, paying bills, living! Because they were focused on “winning” they missed all of the red flags that would have let them know the guy they were competing for wasn’t even for them. On Oprah I once heard it said “when you have to win someone over, you’re really getting a boobie prize.” So what- if you get him to leave his girl? What are you signing up for next. You can never feel completely at peace in a relationship where you gave everything and the person you loved gave nothing. Good post Nat!
Kelly
on 22/02/2012 at 6:30 pm
I just want to say how much I love the line, “He’s just not that special.” I need that tattooed on my wrist as a reminder.
Mui
on 22/02/2012 at 8:25 pm
thank you great post! I am sick of others trying to promote how to get a competitive edge and to know what men really want, what they appreciate, how they want their women to be …blablabla Where does that leave the women? just there to please the men? F…. That! I´d rather stay alone.
Am just watching the bucket list on tv. Think about it, would you REALLY want to spend the rest of your life with a bloke, who doesnt want you for who you are? If you know that if YOU would ever need his help and reliability He wouldnt be there for you!
This is simply not my goal in life anymore. Altogether i have probably run after impossible relationships for about 18 years now, havent done f… al for myself. Now sorry i wanna further my education, spend more quality time with people who are important to me……. If a bloke crosses this path who will fulfill what is impotant to me maybe.
Otherwise no time, but easier said than done, but its all about practice.
Thank you!
Happy Soul
on 23/02/2012 at 6:17 pm
Natalie, I just want to tell you I love you! GOD, yet again you are spot on!!! Exactly my situation ! Thank you!!!
ner
on 24/02/2012 at 2:55 am
Hi, I just discover BR and I think it´ll be my life boat, I met a guy a year ago, we began to date, and I felt him pushing my boundaries, I distanced my self, no sex, made my boundaries clear and he rejected me, so painfull!!! Iwas in love, but I went NC (Ididn´t know it was called NC, I hadn´t read about relationships before now… ahahah)
I went NC because I had professional matters to solve, and he disturb me,
when I´ve settle my career I have broken, NC, a week ago, I called him, and he said me he has a committed relationship, and that now he doesn´t cheat, doesn´t do drugs, don´t night parties, that he is a responsible man, etc…
I want die of sorrow, I adored this man, I only left him because his no reliable way of life, I think i made a mistake and perhaps he was a good man or perhaps this girl is more valuable than me.
when i was with him, i felt no good enough, for example he made me felt old ( i´m 31 and he is 36!!!) no beauty(I know Im are more beauty than him, and this is no important for me)because of that I am happy that I didn´t make sex with him, I don´t regret this point, I think If I had made it, now I would feel worse 🙁 you know…
never a man made me felt insecure before, I think I need help from here, because many of my girlfriends say me that I have to fight for him, to win his love, I like this guy soooooooo much, but I´m so damaged, I can´t stand it,
please I need advice or a eye_opener, Idon´t know!!!
please I´m desperated!!!
(sorry my grammar, english is not my mother language)
jasmine
on 24/02/2012 at 8:27 am
ner, i think you neeed to get better girlfriends, because they sound desperate to tell you to chase him. As other people on this site will say, do not chase any man. why are you wanting to beg for his love?? dont beg anyone for their love. you have your boundaries which is fabulous. so he is changed, good on him, however he didnt respect your boundaries when you knew him so you made the right choice to leave. if he ‘pushed’ your boundaries, it means he just wanted to have sex with you and he was going to leave you after. he would’ve respected your boundaries, behaved himself as a gentleman and date you the right way if he truly wanted you.. he didnt. thats what men do, they will keep pushing until they get what they want and then ignore you and leave. if he really adored you after he ‘changed’ as you say, he would’ve pursued you, but he didnt. if anything why, do you want to crawl back to him. why SHOULD you crawl back to this guy. he should be the one crawling back to you!. he has not apologised or done that, so leave it be.
A lot of us women on this site including me are guilty of not having boundaries and letting men use us. You have boundaries, so dont let anyone tell you to change them. !
ner
on 24/02/2012 at 7:11 pm
jasmine, I´m so gratefull for your post!!
my girlfriends are good people, but you know…
i left him alone because i wasn´t feeling right in the “relationship”, loved, cared, secured… and the big issue are drugs (not the “push” for sex)
but now i can´t help regreting it, i miss him, and i know i loved him, the other day he made me regret all, you know, saying that I was important for him but I didn´t trust and that it´s my fault because i left him alone…
grace
on 24/02/2012 at 9:46 am
ner
hate to kick you when you’re down but – the moral of this story is Don’t Call Em.
Also, you don’t know whether these changes will “stick”. It all sounds too good to be true. If I was him (which I’m not), the tactful, grown up thing to do would be to say “Hi Ner, things are good with me. Hope they are for you. No, I don’t think we should meet up, let’s just put the past behind us” not some advert on how great he is. Of course, you wouldn’t like that either because, face the truth, you wanted his approval. They’re allowed to move on and to become better people (assuming he has) and so are we.
NO FIGHTING FOR SOMEONE ELSE’S MAN. It’s immoral and degrading. Your girlfriends are wrong, wrong, wrong. You think you feel bad now,? That way lies a particular category of hell. You want to go there to avoid feeling the loss and disappointment. I’d choose the loss and disappointment if I were you. It passes. Affairs can go on indefinitely and the damage it does to you self esteem can stay with you for years.
And you wouldn’t like it if someone did it to you.
Don’t let one phone call derail your life.
ner
on 24/02/2012 at 7:26 pm
hi grace, thanks for your post, it´s very helpfull.
first, i NEVER date a married man or a man with girlfriend, i never did it and I will never do it.
Now I think about it, because i know he has a girl since one month!!! ( if it´s really true, i don´t know…) or sth like that, although he says is a committed relationship and bla, bla ( wtf!!!)
i think you are right and it wasn´t a good idea call him, because he damaged me saying he has changed, no drugs, is a formal boyfriend, ALL THE THINGS I WANTED in the past!!! and he said it was my fault, he loved me but i left him alone… i can´t help regreting it, i don´t know how to manage the sense of loss and thinking perhaps i made a mistake…
he doesn´t seem a good guy, does he?? i think i need objetive opinions, it would be better if i forget about him??
i´m lost…
grace
on 24/02/2012 at 9:23 pm
ner
Careful girlie (hope you don’t mind, it’s what I call my nieces). You said you don’t date men with girlfriends. He’s got a girlfriend. It doesn’t matter that you got there first or that it’s only been a month (or however long it is). A boundary is a boundary. When we start saying “but I love him, but I’m unhappy, but he started it” it’s a very fast and bumpy ride to the bottom of the slope.
He hasn’t been off the drugs long enough for you to be sure that’s permanent.
He sounds very immature with his bragging and all this “it’s your fault”.
He’s not that special.
I don’t think it’s ever a mistake to break up with someone who makes you unhappy, manipulates you and takes drugs. How can that not be a mistake? Your mistake was to call him.
Feeling bad isn’t a sign that you should be with someone.
ner
on 25/02/2012 at 8:51 pm
hi grace!! I love “girlie” ahahahah!!
I don´t know how to express this in english, but you pointed a very important sign, never in my life I thought about a man with girl, it was the same for me, one month than one year, this guy makes me do bad things, I am ashamed I had better common sense when I was a teen than now!!!!
Magnolia
on 24/02/2012 at 9:57 pm
ner,
it sounds like he made himself sound great in order for you to feel bad about leaving him. and it is working! don’t let him make you question your judgment.
no guy who cares about you would try to punish you for dumping them by basically saying, “I am now what you wanted; too bad you didn’t have enough faith in me.” It’s not your job to stick around in the face of drug-using or boundary-pushing behaviour, waiting and hoping it will get better. That is not love, even if the world is full of messages that say it is. You saw what was on the table then, and you decided to do what was right for you. Calling him gave him the opportunity to ‘punish’ you for hurting him.
If your dumping him made him see that his behaviours needed to change, then great. Clearly his behaviour hasn’t become so kind that he refrained from trying to get you to feel bad. From the things you report that he said, I don’t buy that he is suddenly the model guy he says he is, anyway.
But Grace is right. People say lots of mean things when they’re angry and hurt or their pride was wounded; and it’s best not to get back in touch with someone that you had to go AC with. Try not to give too much weight to his immature reaction and focus on continuing with your NC and building your life.
ner
on 25/02/2012 at 9:19 pm
“I am now what you wanted; too bad you didn’t have enough faith in me.” It’s not your job to stick around in the face of drug-using or boundary-pushing behaviour, waiting and hoping it will get better. That is not love, even if the world is full of messages that say it is. You saw what was on the table then, and you decided to do what was right for you.
AMEN
I think i will print your post and stick it in my forehead!!!
perhaps this thing go with how i am, i ever fight for all things, jobs… you know…
I knew this guy was not mature enough… using drugs at 35!! This was the big issue for me, and last time I talked with him, four months ago, he was in drugs, parties.. now has he changed, in four months is a new man!!! and the rest of people in the world struggling with left the drugs, amazing…
I have been reading more in this website, and I match all the signals!!!
it´s the first time in my life I lost my time with a jerkguy like this!!!
He eroded my self-steem indeed!!! in a few dates, it´s incredible…
Your post and other women´s here helped me a lot, to stick to my past gut, but now i think must be sth wrong in me, why am i losing my time with this jerk!!?? if when i was a teen i spot this kind of guy at first sight, i am ashamed, it´s weakening that i am thinking “if i would have more patience perhaps…” I can´t help doing it and It´s so enervating…
hummmm…!!!
Ashamed
on 25/02/2012 at 3:05 pm
Hi ladies,
I’m so grateful to have found this site. I’m ashamed so please don’t judge. I am married, but not happily. I love my husband as he is a “good” guy but shows me NO affection or love physically. The sex is cold and detached (worst lover I have had but thought I could live with it) yet he does so many other wonderful things for me and my two kids. About 13 months ago I met this charming man (10 years my junior) who is very well respected and liked at work. He chased me and I finally gave in, and the barely there affair has been going on for about 10 month. I never gave in to intercourse with him but we have done other things. He is so loving, passionate, fun and affectionate in bed that I crave him constantly. I know he doesn’t want a relationship- he tells me all the time. I agree just to feel and have the affection I lack at home. I’m so torn- he’s been upfront with me and I should run – I know I should. I tried NC but failed after 3 weeks. He is an EUM b/c he never seems to have girlfriends and outside of the bedroom, I hardly hear from him. I am ashamed- so please don’t judge. I came here for support as I write this in tears. I know I should probably leave my husband but the kids would be so devastated. There are so many EUM out there- it scares me to enter that “world”.
jasmine
on 25/02/2012 at 5:04 pm
ashamed, its not about judging you. i hold marriage very sacred. i also feel that before any sort of affair started, you needed to address the issues you have with your husband which you didnt do.
you have children and your children are your first responsibility. they dont deserve to be put through this. i also dont understand why you married your husband if you perhaps didnt feel anything for him. if it was due to family pressure for example, thats still not a good reason to put someone through this and bring children into the world with you feeling that way.. im giving you tough love, but you need to wake up . what values are important. your husband as you say is a good man and provides you with a lot. all marriages arent perfect. you need to work on your problems rather than resorting to meaningless affairs.
i feel telling your husband of this affair would have devastating consequences…if it was me, i would keep it secret if you have any hopes of repairing the marriage.
it is fixabe, i advise you seek counselling and also let your husband know of your feelings in the bedroom. you need to bring passion and romance into your marriage. if this doesnt work, then sadly you should get a divorce.
also;
just because a man doesnt have a girlfriend doesnt mean he’s EUM. there could be all sorts of reasons , he hasnt found the right girl for example. i have this feeling that you are calling him EUM because he doesnt give you attention. wake up honey you are married and he shouldnt be giving you attention!
Ashamed
on 02/03/2012 at 2:15 am
Jasmine,
I was remiss in leaving out that I have tried to discuss my concern over our lack of affection and physical touch for YEARS. I can’t change him, I have tried. I did love my husband when we got married. It just wasn’t the passionate, I must have you kind of love and I made myself believe that marrying your best friend was better than that type of love. 15 years later I’m missing the passion I used to have with my college love and the cravings that I feel with my
new AC. My AC and I are also friends and he confides in me about others too – in my opinion, he is EUM and not just with me but I do understand why you would say that and I get your point. I know it’s time to end it.
Mymble
on 25/02/2012 at 6:17 pm
Ashamed,
Your situation is similar to mine, in fact almost identical, except that I have been NC with the AC (who was married to someone else, which I suppose makes it worse, if that’s possible) for 3 months.
Stop bothering with the shame, etc, it’s useless, and start thinking properly about your future. It doesn’t lie with this guy anyway. Don’t assume he isn’t seeing others; 10 to 1 he is, and a big part of your attraction will be that you’re in a box, aren’t liable to turn up unexpectedly, make demands, etc. EUs DO often have whole harems of women. The longer you stay with him the more he will hurt you. You can do without the sex, (that was also a big thing for me having not had sex with my husband for over a year). Sure I miss that but it wasn’t worth the misery.
Finish with the AC. Cut all contact with him. You know it’s going to happen anyway, why hang around for more humiliation?
Don’t make any sudden decisions about your marriage until you are properly over the AC. The answer to that problem will come to you in time but while you’re still getting the s*** kicked out of your self esteem by the AC you are in no position to make rational decisions.
I am coming to the decision that I do want to end my marriage, and I would be content on my own, so the prescence or absence of EUs, ACs etc is of no relevance.
Mymble
on 26/02/2012 at 10:19 am
Ashamed,
Perhaps my reply sounded a little cold – believe me I do sympathise as I have been going through all this myself and I cry most days. The trouble is that by turning to someone else as an escape from the marriage issues, we not only are not escaping, we are making them worse and adding a whole lot of new pain and complications into the mix.
The damage is severe.
I also married someone of whom I was fond but not physically compatible. I thought it didn’t matter, after all I had had many relationships with good “chemistry” and they had failed, so I decided that it wasn’t important. I now feel that was wrong. I think my choice of husband was due to abandonment issues, here was someone who would never leave me. I also underestimated other incompatibilities, cultural, educational etc.
Is this how it was for you?
This guy you are having an affair with, I call him an AC bc he is preying on your vulnerability and loneliness. The fact that he is open about it doesn’t redeem him. And he knows, as mine did, that there is nothing you can say, so in his mind, his conscience is clean.
I really hope you can manage to get rid of him soon.
I am hoping to start joint counselling with my Husb soon, more with a view to giving this marriage a decent thought out ending. He is already talking about how much he wants to get out of me financially. He is living in la la land as I have nothing, having supported him and paid everything for our entire marriage.
Ashamed
on 02/03/2012 at 2:34 am
Mymble,
Thank you for your support. Our situations do sound similar. My AC is such a charmer, flirt – I know he has many girls both as friends and would be lovers. Funny thing is – I’m more attracted to his personality and fun loving nature than his looks but knowing him has made me more attracted to him physically. My husband is actually better looking. The issue is that my husband came from a family of all boys (5), 3 are already divorced and their spouses complained about the same thing. They just aren’t warm, fun loving people but they have other good qualities. I think that because they grew up poor, the household was not a happy one. Instead the focus was on money instead of love and this has impacted them in their adult lives and relationships. They love status and material items but don’t know how to “love” a
woman properly. My husband told me that I watch too many movies – that people don’t really make love like that. Well – I have made love like that and I miss it. I’m trying to tell myself
that I can live without it but I don’t know how much longer I can. I have tried counseling. I feel so torn and don’t want to wake up another 10 years later thinking I wasted some of the
love I have and want to give someone who will know what to do with it. Let me know how you cope.
grace
on 25/02/2012 at 8:01 pm
Ashamed
I know a woman who finally left her husband after about 20 years of a cold marriage with no affection and bad sex. She’s remarried and one of her children still hasn’t forgiven her. But I think she made the right choice.
My parents have a loveless marriage. That was quite as devastating to me as divorce I think.
There’s more to a marriage is more than not getting divorced.
As for your fear of entering the EUM world? You’re already in it.
Both these men are EU.
Ashamed
on 02/03/2012 at 2:46 am
Grace- you are right. Both of these men are EUM. I never really thought that about my husband because I mistakenly thought his loyalty to me was being emotionally available but it’s different. I realized he was EU when my dad died and after the first day or two, I would cry alone as he walked by me without any consolation(not even a hug).
runnergirlno1
on 26/02/2012 at 2:12 am
Hi Ashamed,
I could never judge you. As a former OW, I engaged in cheating on his wife, lying, and deceiving my friends and family. Thus, I live in a glass house and I’m accountable for my past. I want to offer some gentle support.
I would like to suggest that you commit to going NC with the barely there affair guy and focusing on you. Even though I slid off the NC wagon several times, I finally made it. What really helped me is reading this blog, Natalie’s books, and learning to focus on me instead of him. Of course, he was EUM. That was a no brainer. But one of the amazing things I discovered about myself, I was EUW and as unavailable as he was which is why I signed up to be a mistress in the first place. I don’t know if this applies to you. Clearly the barely there affair guy is EUM. What would you win by continuing?
I also understand cold, detached sex, the worst I ever experienced. 3rd ex was the worst ever, ever, ever. I might as well not even been there and most of the time I wasn’t! He was a “good guy” too, kinda. For me, the lack of intimacy in the bedroom was symbolic of a lack of intimacy in all the other rooms too which is why he’s an ex.
I wouldn’t stress right now about dating and/or entering “that world” filled with EUM’s. It sounds as though your plate may be pretty full as it is with kids and a husband. I know it’s difficult but take some time to focus on you. It took me some time to turn the focus on me and then it took even longer to recognize why I participated in an affair and then to move from shame/blame to accountability. It’s been a rewarding journey, albeit frustrating at times. I’m still struggling and have down days. Overall though, it’s was worth it because I am worth it. You are too.
I’ve got my fingers crossed for you and your kids.
BTW, entering the dating world is a lot less scary since I’m addressing my own unavailability issues. Hugs to you.
Ashamed
on 02/03/2012 at 3:02 am
Runnergirlno1,
Sounds like you are doing great and I will get there too, especially with the support from all of you. I know I sound weak and I can be at times but for the most I’m a pretty strong person. I have a great job and can support me and my kids alone if it ever cane to that. As far as AC, I already started NC again and will hold strong this time. I need to stop participating in his game and focus on me. He plays the friend card – the I want to be there for you card and then I get roped
in. I know this sounds lame but he is an incredible kisser, something my husband is not. It all comes down to to how he seduces me, and makes me feel like he is totally in love with me just by the way he holds me, kisses me and well… you get the picture. Wish he wasn’t so
good at that and my husband so bad at it. Two different extremes – makes for one confused life…
tina
on 27/02/2012 at 8:17 pm
I have to add to this… it helps me see how much i have changed! Ok, my loswest point in my love life (was it love or lust…still deciding) was when a lover of mine, Narcisistic Juvenile and emotionally abusive, rich banker man, (i can say this now because I am away from the drama and have had months of no contact and I never intend to return to contact!) anyay, mr duplicity called me once in his most charming manner to do him a “favor”… he said only i could do it because he trusted me so much. So dum dum girl me goes over to his pish posh apartment. He hands me a set of clippers to clip his hairy back!!!!! he said he was doing a photoshoot (he said oh yea I model sometimes (crazy delusional man..) and I tossed a fit. I said how dare you but then he pulled the Well if you wont’ do it, I will get someone else to do it..So being weak at that time 2.5 years ago. I did it. MADE ME ILL. no kidding came down sick two days later. I was so disgusted with him and myself. I can laugh at it now but it taught me to NEVER bow down for another assclown again. No way…
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Yes, yes, this was the realisation I had within a day of the AC doing a number on me. I had to accept that I had been trying to win, win back those early feelings and make good those promises he made, win his approval and commitment. It wasn’t loving, of myself or him. It was my big bad pride, mixed with anxiety about not knowing where my life was heading…a lot to put on someone else, even if he contributed to, and encouraged, the dynamic and took advantage of me in some pretty hideous ways. The whole thing was whacked. Things feel so different now…there is space between things…exhale…
Elle, you said it right there sister. On a related note, this is why I think Deliberate Future Faking is one of the cruelest weapons in the Assclown Arsenal, as it leaves the person on the other end trying to win something back that they were never intending on giving anyway…and the assclowns know it full well. Good Lord, I’m SO glad we flushed the jerks.
So true, Natash. Yes, I can take responsibility for my stuff, but that AC told me all sorts of things to keep me invested that I then had to work out, crushingly, were not just reckless, but actual lies to get work-related favours, sex, and attention out of me. That was not deserved by me. I could have protected myself better from it, but I had to know what this brand of cruelty looked like. I didn’t recognise it, and it triggered or at least aggravated all that ‘winning nonsense’. Now, thankfully, I would smell it.
meant ‘Natasha’, though I am a chronic abbreviation-hag!
Yes! The Future Faking and being strung along was so awful. Whenever I asked my AC if we had a future, he’d say, “Yes, of course… but I don’t know what that means…” He’d actually pretend that he didn’t have an understanding of future talk, like that was a concept for other, less intellectual people. And I allowed myself to hang in there… ugh. We are SO fortunate to be rid of these creeps!
In my 20+ years of dating, I found myself compromising my integrity many times. It was for the reasons you state here – that I thought I’d be losing out if I didn’t lower the bar.
Thank you for reminding us all what we are already losing if we compromise ourselves! There are worse things than being alone – being with someone who does not treat us with love, kindness, care, and respect.
I may be alone for the rest of my life, only God knows, but I do know one thing: I will never settle again.
Hugs from California,
Christine
xxoo
Christine, that inspired me. Thank you. I’ve put myself in all kinds of compromising situations all to win some guy over. Are any of them still around? No. Did I win them over by being their puppet? No. If anything they lost more respect for me, I think. Like you, I may be single for the rest of my days but it’s better than having to trade myself down to something I am not.
“I may be alone for the rest of my life, only God knows, but I do know one thing: I will never settle again.”
Amen sister!
I jumped through hoops for my ex-AC, and nothing was ever good enough. No matter how I tried to exercise or diet for him, he would always end up complaining. No matter how I tried to clean the house, he would always complain when it was remotely messy even if HE NEVER LIFTED A FINGER! If I had to borrow money off of him, he would complain even if I was the one paying for EVERYTHING.
But, I don’t regret it. I didn’t win, far from. But I did win a very valuable lesson on what it means to be true to myself, one I thought I had learned before. See, he wasn’t the first guy I jumped through hoops for. He wasn’t, sadly the last guy I jumped through a hoop for either. But he was like the peak of hoop jumping– after that the hoops became smaller, and now I just don’t think I have it in me to jump through any more hoops.
It’s a lot easier to realize I will never again do anything that makes me uncomfortable in order to “win” a man. It feels liberating that I am so unafraid of being alone and choosing me instead.
Thank you Natalie for another amazing post. It’s like you can see what is going on in my life. I got involved with someone who I have to see everyday and it didn’t go well. He wasn’t going to give me the things that I wanted and so I have to admit that I did feel the urge to try and “win” him over. To show him that I am valuable and a good catch! Sheesh! Deep down I knew this behavior was unacceptable to me and I decided not to entertain that thought any longer. He really isn’t that special. He honestly has issues that he should deal with before ever dating anyone but he probably wont. This post was a nice kick in the arse for me!!! A reminder to keep my ego in check and to not compromise myself. In this case “losing” really is winning!!! Thank you SOOOO much!
I think the thing that has really struck me since I’ve begun quite recently to laugh in the face of men who are obviously trying, quite underwhelmingly, to see what they can get even though they are not really interested, is how quickly and easily they respond with a sort of ‘oh well’ mentality and I never hear from them again. It makes me think of all of the times I had the sex, answered the text, went along with it hoping to win them over when there was actually absolutely nothing of any substance there and never would be, for any number of reasons. And then the pain. I’ll take a bout of loneliness over that particular brand of pain ANY day. For those of you still struggling with this along with me: Laugh, delete, and soldier on, practicing anything you can to help you begin to believe you are worth more.
I like your “laughter” approach, it’s quite healthy! I used to take it personally when men would disappear after I made it clear that sex/sexting/etc wasn’t happening on a first date, nor was I looking for a casual encounter. Now, thankfully, I am realizing I don’t WANT those men.
“practicing anything you can to help you begin to believe you are worth more.” says it all! Sometimes, I know it does for me, it takes everything I have to turn in a healthier direction. To believe.
Wow…agree with everything you said! It’s a sad realization for me now bc I gave up what I wanted for myself. I got blindsided with the whole “you’re so old-fashioned…everyone is doing xyz now” that I felt completely idiotic for not being more casual with my body. I even had a man say “we’re grown ups now not little kids” as if to say that having sex made him separate and apart and obviously so mature. I never had sex with him…I just thought it was funny to mention.
I wouldn’t say its peer pressure (at my age) but more of a fear that I would never find someone who actually values what I value (and still have chemistry). Now I realize that scaling back caused me to lose/hide what makes me “me”. Looking back, no man could truly love the real me because I wasn’t putting the real “me” out there.
It makes me so happy to see so many women “get it” for the first time and at an earlier age then me. I’m not old but too old to be dealing with grown men acting like high-school boys. Cheers to you and all the ladies on here. The only thing we’re losing are AC’s
mets
Your “type” can change (thank God!).
I was at a church meeting the other evening, and was telling the group about a spiritual experience. When I finished, I looked round the room to see if I’d embarrassed myself, and the man was smiling at me. He has seen something in me that none of the other men have ever seen. I’m done with the Mystery Woman schtick I had going. I like putting the real me out there.
I don’t know how this Thing will turn out but I like that I like someone who is gentle, not arrogant, doesn’t show off, doesn’t brag, doesn’t charm, doesn’t flirt, doesn’t compliment me, doesn’t boundary bust. It’s so lowkey I wonder if he fancies me at all or if I imagined it. But, it’s okay because at least I know my taste in men has changed for the better.
I used to love the boundary busters – I got a thrill out of their pursuit and their bad behaviour but now, blah, I think it’s total rubbish!
Yay Grace! This guy sounds like the guy I have just started seeing. It’s low-key and authentic, but/and also consistent, warm and fun. There is space. You should be yourself from the start. That’s the best.
Funny (if I may say) dialogue over phone last night:
Sister-in-law: So are things hot and heavy with the new guy?
Me: hot, but not heavy. Not even overly hot.
Sister-in-law: Oh…
Me: No, it’s lovely, it’s just lacking that hot and heavy quality that comes when you kind of hate one another.
Good for you Grace for putting the real you out there. I’m following your posts with regards to your vulnerability and, well, grace. I’m betting you didn’t embarrass yourself.
I hope you are finding Natalie’s new book interesting. I loved the Miss Self-Sufficient Miss Independent section. I think Natalie has plans to do an entire book on this type of FBG.
I can see how I attracted the exMM with my Mystery Woman Schtick and I can see how I was attracted to his Mystery Man Schtick. It was unavailable + unavailable = unavailable. It must be scary being vulnerable. But it really isn’t more than scary than being unavailable because you have boundaries.
Madhatter signing off.
I love this post! Especially this part “What you need to actually focus on is the fact that they will find someone else to do what you don’t actually want to do (and will feel crappy about after doing it) anyway.”
That’s right, let someone else bust their boundaries to please these people, not you. Bleh, I cannot even imagine putting up with the crap of dating my last ac again, and I am quite sure there is another girl doing it. Not liking it but doing it anyway hoping he’ll throw a crumb her way if she seems ‘cool’ with his crap or that she’ll eventually become ‘the one’. When it didnt work for the rest of us.
Thank God for you Natalie. I keep telling my gf’s about this site and at first they all thought I was crazy but now they are starting to see the validity in your wisdom. Keep on, keeping on girl with this stuff. Eventually because of BR, I will hopefully wean myself right off of my Fall Back Girl, Boundary busting behavior!
I remember being in a bar with my girlfriend when I got a text from the alky asking me to hang out. My friend had just ordered a drink and I practically poured the margarita down her throat. I was so eager to leave and be with him, every minute I waited for her was torture. He “wanted me” and I couldn’t drive there fast enough. My anxiety stemmed from the fact that his contact was so sporadic and undependable that he had me jumping through hoops when I did hear from him. So many red flags ignored. Ugh, how dumb. What was I so afraid of losing? He still disappeared, still kept drinking, still left, still hurt me, still rebuffed any of MY contact…
Haha yes blueberry,
When my exAC started to contact me less frequently and sporadically it was totally OK that he send me a text at 1am or call me at 6am, I’d eagerly respond.
When he began withdrawing from me sexually any sexual contact was good enough for me even if I wasn’t receiving any pleasure from it. I just needed to feel like he still fancied me.
I have to say that this is VERY good advice for those of you dating. I am married but even in a marriage relationship we can sometimes find that we compromise what we want for what he wants too often and end up losing one’s self in the process. If you put a high value on yourself, men will see it. Those men worth having will be intrigued and value you highly also. My post today is about Knowing What You Sow. If we women pretend the kind of man that undervalues us is a rose, don’t be surprised down the road when it turns out you have a thorny Devil Stick instead!
Great post! I really enjoyed reading it!
I did exactly this a couple of weeks ago. After 16 months of head games and assholery…. I flippin did it again!!! He chased me endlessly (just lives around the corner), I blinked in the face of my NC rules, and then, guess what?… he disappeared. Just like always. I fell back into that hole of self blame and how dumb could I be? again.
But, in 5 days I am moving away from this neighbourhood and, with a clear purpose and intent to love me and treat myself to the wellness gift of never seeing him again, never having him drive endlessly, keep tabs on me, check in. I am worth so much more that that freak. And I rented one of the finest places here on the beach, I look over the world in ocean and mountains. Taking my boundaries back where they belong, with me, and smile just thinking about it!!!
Well crumbs. There isn’t enough cyberspace in cyberland to admit to everything you say in this post. I’ve done it all with the exMM. I really, really did think in only the twisted way a classic FBG could think, that if I just did X, Y would happen. I would “win”. I was so caught up in winning, my ego, and my fantasy, I never gave a thought as to the prize. I very much compromised myself in order to get the relationship I thought was just around the corner, if only I would jump through the next hoop and there was always a next hoop just like you say. Here’s an example, although I have many to choose from: Mother’s Day last year, he can only slot me in in the morning cos he’s got to be with his wife and mother for dinner, well cos it’s Mother’s Day after all. I said nope. Too bad. Then I did the classic FBG gig and figured that something was better than nothing and met with him for mimosas and sex in the morning while he went off to be with his wife and mother for the evening. I felt like crap after he left, an understatement. It’s so clear now. Once he knew I had no boundaries, it was open season.
After over a year and change since the big break-up, falling off the NC wagon several times, and the most recent encounter, I’m just stunned at what I thought was the prize and how very little he was offering. Thanks to you all and Natalie, I’m starting to discover my value. He’s just simply not offering anything, certainly nothing that could add positively to my life. I’m no longer that desperate. He’s no longer that special.
I did succumb to the intensity and told him all about himself AGAIN, via email/text. He just seemed so intent on going down memory road, I couldn’t resist filling him in on how shagging me and returning to his wife made me feel like shit. Yeah, I know, it’s futile. Yeah, I know it’s like I gotta win still again. Yeah, I know I’m not really winning again. Yeah, I know no response is the best response. I know better. I just wanted him to know that his arse is kicked to the fricking curb. There’s no more. There’s no more longing wistful emails about the good old days every six months or so. There’s nothing but the curb and his wife staring at him in the morning. It was a pretty good nastygram as those things go. F**K him. The door is closed. Period. Period. Period. Period. Forever.
Oh Runner, hugs. I’m sorry to hear that you’re still invested enough in the story that you felt you needed to let him know even a word of what was on your mind. Email and text? Was it an actual exchange? Hope not.
What clarity: he tried to slot in sex with his side piece in the morning “because it was Mother’s Day.” I bet he thought he was gallant, giving attention to all the needful women in his life on that day. Anyway, who cares about that turd.
What’s next for runnergirlno1?
Hey Mag, it was ‘just an email’. I get texts and emails on my Iphone so there isn’t a difference anymore. He did the usual, “you looked gorgeous” bullshit on a new email address because he knows he’s blocked. I tried to resist responding but I couldn’t. Actually, my response was quite measured considering the anger and hurt I was experiencing. I told him there would be no more communication for any reason as any communication is disrespectful to his wife and to me. That’s it. Of course, I pointed out that he needs to find another OW to distract him from his marriage and I’m not that woman. Good luck to him. I also couldn’t refrain: He always said, “I deserve better” and I do. It was a pretty matter of fact response. Then I blocked his new email address. No more twisting, morphing, cooking or sexing. I’m done. I’m the one who got away! His loss, although I really feel very sorry for his wife. If she knew what he was up to within the last week, she’d be horrified. I’m glad I’m not his wife. Is there anything I should do to make it right with his wife?
runner
NO, leave his wife to do whatever it is she’s doing. Separate yourself from their drama.
Don’t respond to any more of his texts/emails/psychic messages. Your recent communication is neither here nor there in the grand scheme of things but that’s enough now. Draw the line under it.
I’m completely free of all exes except the first one. He posts publicly on my FB about his kids’ pets, stuff like that. It’s innocent. I’m not patrolling it like a sentry guard but if it gets out of hand, he’s out too.
I finally blocked the email of the ex who was in my life fairly consistently for about 20 years. I just don’t need the reminder I was THAT girl.
I am 100% over all of the exes because, apart from one (who was and is a decent guy), I have cut off every last iota of contact. I don’t look at them on FB, I don’t google them. I don’t talk about them. And there has been no loss at all, only gain.
It’s as if I never knew them.
I thought it was not possible, but they are irrelevant to me now. I don’t even think to myself “at least I learned from it”. They mean nada.
I’m gonna stop now in case you think “she protests too much”!
Runner: According to something I’ve read somewhere, it’s considered a crime if somebody uses a new email address to get through to a person who blocked him. But I’m not sure.
Maybe you should have told him that (and nothing else) – or you shouldn’t have responded at all. Anything else is futile and is only going to hurt you more.
Hey Grace & EllyB, and all
I’ve dialed down my drama meter and drawn a line under it. Thank you for the reality check. After pausing, I realized my post was something along the lines of “OMG, the lying, cheating, AC/MM is still a lying, cheating AC/MM who thinks I’m still going to bust my boundaries and cook for him and sex him”. That’s nothing to write to BR about. News flash: Liars continue to lie. But here’s the real news flash: I’ve got boundaries and values and I’m not going to screw myself over in order to win a liar.
Grace, you aren’t protesting too much. Every single ex is now just someone I used to know. It’s just a matter of time before this guy will be somebody I used to know.
EllyB, he used his work email because his wife hacked his home email. It’s a public email address, so anybody from his office has access. I just forgot to block it. He knows that I can forward his emails to his wife if he persists or publish them on a blog. He won’t persist. He was just giving it another shot, chancing his arms, seeing if the door was really shut. It’s shut. I don’t want to win. He may roll back around in another 6 months and then I’ll pull out my standard response to MM’s: If you email me again, I’ll forward it to your wife. That is usually end of story.
Thanks to you all and Natalie, I’m starting to discover my value. He’s just simply not offering anything, certainly nothing that could add positively to my life. I’m no longer that desperate. He’s no longer that special.
I call it containerisation or relationship quarantine. It sounds like you had no more space or hand in his life than a hooker. The checkout server at the local supermarket probably saw him more often!
It is so soul destroying to realise that someone has sectioned you off/quarantined you from the rest of their life and doesn’t involve you with meeting their friends, family and doing group things. Lack of proper title even made this more acute. My AC told me that he was ‘not good with groups’ which was total and utter crap – his facebook is FULL of him in groups with his friends. Did he involve me – NO.
One of the things that I had difficulty reconciling was me at the psych trying to explain how I had put all the focus on him, and to him, I was just some insignificant small fry and that there were so many other people he was chasing / seeing at the same time. There’s ALWAYS more than one person lurking around somewhere…
Like Natalie says – always have backup sources of happiness.
Hey Magnolia, enjoying the blooming of spring and continuing to build my life are next. I’d never go back down that dark hole trying to “win” by selling myself down the river. I was surprised that I am still vested as well. There is more hurt and anger to work through, apparently. But there’s no going back.
Tired, an OW is always quarantined and it is soul destroying. You are right about that! I’m glad we are out of quarantine now.
omg, the checkout server saw him more often. yes. cringe. Yes, this has been over and (mostly) am over him, but had a weird dream about this guy this morning and remembered. Now – “tired”, you gave me a reality check. even in the dream he was more interested in some sparkly picture than me, (in the dream) delivering some goods for his “business” (he does not have one in real life). How telling, how appropriate! I let the thoughts just float, no reason to be forceful with them, but I did tell myself out loud: He. just. was. not. interested. in. me.
“After over a year and change since the big break-up, falling off the NC wagon several times, and the most recent encounter, I’m just stunned at what I thought was the prize and how very little he was offering. Thanks to you all and Natalie, I’m starting to discover my value. He’s just simply not offering anything, certainly nothing that could add positively to my life. I’m no longer that desperate. He’s no longer that special.”
Well said Runner, I feel exactly the same now about my ex-EUM….what was he offering anyway??!!
Nat, this post had me almost cheering from the rooftops, it just confirms totally the situation I got myself out of 6 weeks ago. He wanted me to bust my boundaries, have a relationship purely on his terms; no thought or care for what I wanted. I wasn’t prepared to ignore my values to satisfy his needs, no one is that special, certainly not him!! What would I have got in return anyway? Well he cheats on his current girlfriend, there’s a start…NO THANKS.
He is supposedly getting what he wants but he’s still not satisfied, he’ll never change, he’ll never be happy. She’ll soon get wise to his ways, but he’ll have another victim waiting in the wings. If the sad a**hole comes back to press the reset button on me, he’ll get the sound of silence. 37 days of NC and counting, feeling stronger than ever.
Being Single is Amazing, it will take an Amazing person for me to give it up!!!!
Thank-you Thank-you Thank-you Nat xxx
Hi Miranda,
I’m not a really good role model. After my soul was destroyed, I finally did recognize that a MM was not adding to my life, only subtracting and there was NOTHING I could do because like Nat says I did it all to no avail. I busted every boundary I thought I had in order to get a MM to leave his wife for me. There’s no such thing as a “relationship” when it is always on his terms.
For my future, a guy will have to add something to my life. I have a wonderful daughter (although she’s in transition), I have great job, I have a house, I have car (although I need a new one). A guy needs to add and be a co-pilot. I’ve become so much more aware and grateful as to where I am, what I have, and what I’ve earned. I’ve done it all on my own without a guy, despite numerous guy detractors. The guys I’ve hung with and bent over backward to please, never contributed one drop to me. That’s a very difficult realization. I did it despite them.
Hi guys, it’s been a while but I’m still here from time to time.
I think another point to make on this subject, is try busting THEIR boundaries and watch them run run run!!! Imagine us asking these assclowns for money/shoulder/whatever.
Haha I’m having a chuckle just thinking about their reactions.
Have a great day 🙂
They have boundaries alright!
Boundary = NO RELATIONSHIP
No intimacy, no love, no care…
Cross the line – watch the alarms go off and go crazy!
Boundary – I will not tolerate anyone phoning me and meeting me in person
Boundary- I will keep everything on a ‘needs to know basis’ and only release information when pressed (the AC did this!)
Boundary – I will not put a title on our ‘thing’
Amen! They offer absolutely nothing but a mind screw!
t-of-a,
you forgot, and I quote: “truth is on a ‘need-to-know’ basis”. WTF? WHAT was I thinking?
Future faking and SLOW-forwarding, title was there all right, but no action :(.
Kirsten – I learned this from painful experience too. Like so many others here, my ex refused to give us a label and was very adept at avoiding situations where questions might be asked. Just once, someone asked outright: “are you two and item or just friends?” After an *excruciatingly* long silence he was forced to concede we were, indeed, an item.
He finished with me the next day.
Now there’s boundaries for you.
Of course I should add that the happier postscript to the sorry tale above is that I went away, got real with myself and rediscovered my own value. Now he’s back, saying he misses me, but it’s too late. I think we are both coming to the slow realization that I may just be the best thing he’s ever lost…
same thing happened to me when i was out with ex AC – i was described as a colleague – and this was to a ticket inspector we didn’t know, and would never see again…wtf?! “my colleague here would like a ticket to…..”. My heart sank and i felt terrible, but personalised it which made it more difficult to see what a bad situation it was and that i should leave.
i put up with this cr*p for so long, and although my self esteem has risen above ground level (still some way to go, but i’m moving in the right direction) i am so used to being in a relationship and being treated like that – i feel i’m actually struggling a little bit in a new relationship where things are *normal* – ie meeting friends, family as part of me wants to run in the opposite direction. I’m really trying to untangle these feelings – are they a sign i’m not into new person enough? or is it a reasonable left over from years and years of being badly treated / single where i didn’t have to deal with a new relationship and what that brings.
I’m happy now, and i’d walk away from this new relationship if it is not meant for me, (i dont fear being single) but dont want to sabotage something good because old demons are showing their faces.
Sorry a bit off topic there!
I got described as ‘friend’ at the restaurant – which technically was correct as four weeks before they had done a disappearing act and I had been managed right down and was trying to recover the initial high of the ‘I think I have a chance of becoming the significant other’.
They knew I was crazy about them but at that stage I had not found BR and I sailed past that red signal.
THANK YOU, thank you. I love this post! Because this is (was?) me… I’ve tolerated so much bad behavior, right down to the sexting with men I just met hours before on dating sites (it’s embarrassing to admit). I’m so afraid that I’ll end up alone that I change my fundamental values and personality. Readings posts like this is very empowering. Thank you!
Kmac, I’m still suffering from the pain. I used to have no boundaries, thought that by doing things they ask for/want me to do e.g. have sex, showing affection, would make them happy and in return will make me happy. I had put him in the center of my universe.
My ex cut me off after taking every advantage of me. how much I wish I would have found this post and BR before so that I won’t get myself into such a mess. I now understand that I should uphold my boundaries! But now I’m trapped in the pain of regret, the anger and shame towards myself, for doing such stupid things, giving myself to someone who doesn’t really worth it, I was so blinded by the illusion; and I’m also suffering from the anger I have on my ex, for taking advantages of my trust on him. how can I get out from this pain and feeling of regret?
Oh CC, I know exactly where you are. Know that my heart is with you. The thing is, as wonderful as BR is, and as wise as Natalie’s posts are, reading alone does not keep you from ‘getting yourself in such a mess.’ It begins with a decision, and I think that is one of the most helpful things about this site. If you are suffering, reading the posts and responses and all of the support found here from women going through what you are will help you make that decision. I know for me, it also took a rock bottom, and mine happened five months ago when the end of a mere 3-month relationship with someone who really wasn’t treating me very well led to severe depression and thoughts of not wanting to go on with my life. My friends kept vigil, I read this site several times a day for support, and then, I decided. No. More. Don’t get me wrong. When you decide, really decide, the heavens don’t part and celestial choirs don’t sing, and you don’t suddenly feel healed, whole and capable of giving and receiving love. On the contrary. For me, a key word is practice. It’s like anything else. One step forward, two steps back. Three forward, two back. While I think practice is different for everyone, and I think different things are helpful for different people, here are some of my practices:
1) I try not to beat myself up on the days I step backward.
2) I try to get exercise, or at least fresh air, every day. Nature is healing.
3) Meditation. If you don’t have a formal practice, try to sit in silence for a time each day and let your thoughts come and go. When they start to spin out, try to concentrate on your breathing. Silence is nourishing, and leads to greater clarity.
4) Perhaps the single most important thing: Feel the feelings, drop the story. Feel sad. What you are going through feels beyond sad, I know. But when you begin to make up the stories about yourself, or him, or your life, try to place your attention elsewhere. On your breath. On your favorite place. Anywhere else. The difficult feelings will pass, they always do if you let them. And they flow through us far more quickly if we drop the terrible stories we tell ourselves about us as a result.
As for the guy, he didn’t act the way you wanted him to. People don’t sometimes. And the more I realize that much of time that has nothing to do with me, the better I…
CC
I too know how you feel. Like Kmac my so called relationship with an AC only lasted 3 months and ended last October, by the end I was a depressed emotional wreck. He future faked, told little white lies, managed me via text and demonstrated horrible narcissistic behaviour and I too wished I had found BR before he disappeared. But the one thing (that I’ve never mentioned here before) that really disappointed me was that I slept with this guy on our 2nd date. At the time I didn’t care I told myself that if we both liked each other then it shouldn’t matter. But of course it matters, jumping into bed with someone so soon was wrong on my part, and that’s the error that I made. It so important to remember your boundaries and not get caught up in illusions, looks and charm. I thought I was lucky to have him (because he was successful, handsome, had a good city banking job) and I would have done anything I could to keep him and make him want me. If he sent me a text asking me to come over or go out, I would drop everything and go, but he was never able to make any of the dates that I initiated.
Eventually you will start to feel better, it takes time. Meditation has helped me to stop beating myself up and also the support of my sisters and friends, and of course all you BR ladies! (and men). Like Kmac says BR will not heal you completely, you need to find the strength to make the decision to move on and follow it through.
Stephanie, I did exactly like you did (the second date), but my “relationship” lasted for one month, I wanted this way as I was depressed over my Ex AC who came back to my life in October 2011 with new promises and no actions. I did not believe him and I was right! I was feeling sorry for myself that I lost four years of my life for this loser. I thought let me use this new guy…I was wondering if I can sleep with another guy after being with one man for years…and I DID it. I felt relief and happy, somehow I was grateful to this new guy, that he “cured” me from my Ex AC…BUT I would never do this again.
I wish you Stephanie all the best and to all our lovely ladies, I am so happy that I discover BR in 2008!
In a quick sound-bite? Feel it…mourn it…and then agree to let go. Afterwards, take every ounce of energy you have practicing (in real time) how to express love and care TO YOURSELF only. (As you mentioned above…make YOU the center of your universe). Make it safe and okay to discover the real you. It sounds kooky but it’s not. The parts you gave away doesn’t resemble the real you =).
If you stay angry, you will stay stuck. Take it from someone who’s been on here for five years. The yuck and regret goes away as soon as you internalize love, care, trust and respect (per NML) for yourself. Many hugs to you.
Thank you ladies for the support and the advice! This means a lot to me!
kmac,
I do exactly the same. I come here to BR several times a day, especially when I feel weak, when I feel I’m beating myself up with those anger and regret. I read Natalie’s and you ladies’ advice to remind myself the values and boundaries I have to uphold, and that I have to love and trust myself. I have made the decision to accept who my ex really is and to accept what happened as it is, as a lesson. I just have to be firm with this, not allowing the illusion my ex created haunt me and draw me back to the Lala land again.
For me, future faked by my ex, thought that I was in a committed relationship, I used to think that I’m willing to do anything for him, “in the name of love”, and I just want him to be happy. I thought he would see how much I have sacrificed for this relationship and he would treasure it better. It shouldn’t be like this, never.
Stephanie,
I used to think that I was so lucky to have my ex, I thought he’s my soulmate, the one who can truly understand me. And yet he made use of my trust on him. Saying he’s so busy a work and the sending me email is the only thing he could do. ha!
“At the time I didn’t care I told myself that if we both liked each other then it shouldn’t matter. ”
I thought the same and I actually thought that with him SAYING that he is serious with this relationship and would be committed, then this should be okay. And it turned out to be all lies.
metsgirl,
yes! I really have to learn to love myself better, to rebuild my self-trust and self-love. Let go of the illusion and keep myself in reality, not trying to control the uncontrollable anymore. hugs well received 🙂
Thanks so much NML for this platform, full of support and love!
Within several weeks after my last A/C returned to my home town, it became clear that he was a compulsive gambler with a bad problem. I had the presence of mind to attend a GA meeting, at which a gentlemen told me that the A/C would suck my dry if I did not get him some help. Instead, he floundered around all summer before blowing all of his money at the poker tables. Miraculously, he expected that I would bail him out with $3000-$4000 and/or the use of my car.
Having read many posts and comments here, it was painfully apparent that I was not getting any love, care, trust, or respect. I declined his request; he blew a hissy fit; and told me not to contact him again.
No big loss there — I would much rather be alone than spend my time tethered to some Code Red A/C intent on going through life as a huge loser.
I’ve been working on relationship boundaries for awhile now. Your post touched me in so many ways. My last quasi relationship ended after 4 months. We lived 120 miles apart and took turns driving 3 hours to see each other. I wasn’t willing to put the effort into it anymore because I wasn’t getting what I needed from him.
I stood up for myself and he couldn’t handle it. It ended badly but it ended. I didn’t try to win him over or backslide into the old habits of “doing whatever it takes” to keep him.
This time I took care of me first. I didn’t get caught in the trap of always giving him cookies and getting only crumbs back. In the end I won and did myself a big favor by letting go. I haven’t talked to him since and won’t lower myself to contact him or respond to his messages. I’m getting better all the time. Thanks for hitting the nail on the head for me one more time.
Oh dear.
This sounds like me! Ha! I tried so hard. Funny how the AC could always make the trip for a hookup or to see their mates. I thought it could work because either they or I could move, but the hour away distance just was used as a smokescreen excuse.
Sigh.
I’ve learned so much since I discovered BaggageReclaim and one of the most painful and humiliating things I learned is that I had no boundaries (and I wonder why this guy walked all over me?). I was always trying to win the prize. He always dangled it in front of me, just a little out of my reach and I always took the bait. I can remember one time when he said he would call me in a few days and didn’t call me for 3 weeks and when he did he said he was thinking about me (????) and nothing else – no explanation – nothing. I was so happy to hear from him – I hit reset, agreed to see him, proceeded to have sex with him (OMG – someone should have slapped me). And the cycle continued…. Until I told him to f— off. Fast forward 7 months and the power has been transferred to me. He is contacting me, wants to see me. Must think I want to take a trip down assclown memory lane. He is now getting what he deserves and what was long overdue – NC.
I love this post. I have a very hard time letting go of the past and I have the worst case of the woulda, coulda, shouldas. I drive myself crazy wondering if I had done “this” or “that” then the EUM would have liked me more. I felt I wasn’t pretty enough, thin enough, thick enough (depending on the day), outgoing enough, talkative enough, and if only I could change those things, everything would be perfect. When I did try to change who I was based on what I thought he wanted, I ended up hating myself even more. I’m still trying to accept that there is nothing I could have done or said differently because he is who he is. It still hurts so bad though because I have sacrificed so much of myself and my self esteem to someone who never really even cared. And for that, I will forever be ashamed. 🙁
Yeah, you become a human transformer.
It is part of the drama meter- even when they are cut off, the drama meter doesn’t shut down immediately, and so you automatically go below 5, in fact you might go to 1 or even zero or negative.
I know that the worst levels of being a human transformer/play-doh actually happen AFTER I’ve cut contact with them. It is like ‘what can I do to transform into them/grab their attention/win them back/make them change’.
When someone radically changes for you it looks desperate, weird and strange. And even IF you do these things, there is STILL no guarantee that they will be caught – just ask the people who have tried to catch/trap/sex into commitment EUMs and ACs only for them to take the cheese out of the mouse trap but not have it go off.
There’s no prizes or awards for putting yourself through this pain. This awful 8 month experience was so painful, but it is the last time I do that and any future challanges from these EUMs and AC’s will be much more swiftly dealt with and cause much less damage.
BGirl
I’ve done this too! I was so busy trying to be what I thought he wanted in a woman that when it ended, I was lost. After he disappeared into thin air I kept thinking about the woulda, shoulda and couldas and it drove me crazy. I kept thinking if only I could have been more talkative or even more affectionate, or maybe I shouldn’t have asked him after 2 months “where this was going”. Like you said there’s nothing you or I could have done, he is who he is!
I spent around 3 months with my mind going at full speed with these thoughts – they were unstoppable and I needed to buy a music player to override them. It was horrible.
BGirl…I’m on the same boat, but after breaking down this past weekend over some AC bullshit behavior I have realized I have got to get it together once and for all.
My most recent ex decided to text me and say how much he enjoyed the time he spent with me for the sex. He didn’t mention anything else and I was flabbergasted as I know he has a new gf! So I told him to go off and tell her that and to leave me alone, to stop being so disrespectful. Well, I was so furious I told him off because he continued to say how much he missed sex with me. He then proceeded to insult me and call me a “crazy angry bitter bitch” (I kid you not, he really wrote this and no commas either!). So I really went off and then cried my eyes out. I was in shock to think he would ever say those words to me. But then again, it happened before with my other ex and his new gf. I have been looking back at my behavior and I need to really stop feeling ashamed for being who I am. I need to stop putting myself down because of two assholes that have done nothing but hurt me and are going on with their lives as if I never existed. And that’s the point I want to make…while we die a little bit more each day, their living the grand ole life. Are we going to let that happen to us or are we going to fight to live the life we’ve always dreamnt of? Your call…I know I made mine already. Good luck!
And that’s the point I want to make…while we die a little bit more each day, their living the grand ole life.
Being EU or AC is all about mega protection from intimacy and commitment. I don’t register in the AC’s life and I know it – their protected. Coming to think about it I think the AC has done this before – months before we started deepening we were chatting and the AC mentioned how I had to get off dating sites because “90% of the people on there had issues or no social life”, blah blah, they even removed their profile for a while – interesting. I wonder what the hell happened to make someone do a major change like that. Hmmm…
That is some of the least worthy behaviour imaginable. Who would write that to someone? What a degenerate. You don’t deserve that treatment, let alone having him as your romantic partner.
Elle…this has happened to me twice already with two different men. When I try to stand up for myself I’m the anrgy bitch. Well…now I have to pick up what’s left of my self esteem noe and keep on moving.
This is so true and was me in the last go around with the MM/AC. I even told everyone here. I was going ALL IN to win him. He told me flat out he would never say he loved me (he couldn’t, he said, it wouldn’t be fair to many people). SO I WAS GONNA PROVE HIM WRONG!!!
In the end, I gave money, energy, time, sex, pictures, my dignity, played games at his level and I got the “I LOVE YOU” twice! You know what? It wasn’t worth ANYTHING. I didn’t even want him at this point.
I was done after that. I realized I was behaving like the assclown. He begged me for friendship… BEGGED ME. I said I would try that… but then I realized I wasn’t doing it for me, he was never a friend to begin with, and I was living so far outside my ideals that I couldn’t even recognize myself. He just wanted a shoulder to lean on and sob to about his sexual harassment investigation and probably more money.
He was all sad and painted himself as the victim (“I thought you could be my only friend, the only person in my life I could tell anything to” “I value you and respect you soooo much” LOL, yeah right). He’s had multiple affairs and I realize now he will always be this way. When I first started the relationship with him, I thought he just had never had compassion and true friendship… I was so deluded and ignored a( everyone at work who told me to stay away from my creep b) my own gut and instincts because i was raised by a mom who showed me my only value was when men were interested in me, especially sexually! c) this site many times just to go back and see if I could win e) my friends who were telling me just to leave him alone and stop giving in.
You can really lose yourself to these games with these AC. I’m slowly picking up the pieces, in therapy, and trying to once again live my life in my ideals. I’m embarrassed, ashamed, hurt and let myself be used again and again and again. The things I did… I can’t ever undo them. Before MM/AC I had only been w/ one man sexually and we had been in a very good committed relationship. Everything was very respectful. With the MM/AC, I was doing things that were downright degrading, horrible, and so far removed from what I am that I can’t even think about it without crying.
Limerence,
You’ve come far already. We’ve all done things we aren’t proud of. We’re just looking for the love and respect we need and deserve. You went through this experience, learned a ton, and now you’re going to be armed with a new self-confidence. Take it day by day!
I just have to say, ‘THANK YOU NATALIE!!!!!’. You’re like the girlfriend that every woman needs in her circle…forget that, as a BEST FRIEND! As soon as I started to get tired of my ex AC’s assclownery, I found this website. That was 6 months ago & I haven’t spoken to him (or answered his shitty calls) since. I don’t know why, but I found myself crying the other day over the hurt, lies, future faking, and emotional abuse I experienced during the “relationship”. I realized that I had never allowed anyone to negatively affect me, make me even consider changing who I am, or get to know me the way that I allowed him to. And, that really made me feel low the other day. However, everytime I read your posts, I realize that I am not alone, I can learn to love/respect/trust me, and maybe experience a real, healthy relationship later. Keep ’em coming Natalie because your site is truly one of a kind!
Nikki, I think those strong feelings and tears are a natural part of gaining distance, clarity, and new insights via remaining in No Contact.
I’m finding that my perspective on past breakups continues to evolve. And, yep! I still shed tears now and then (and am always a bit taken aback by it, after all these months post-breakup and in full NC).
I suppose mourning and healing is a wiggly process, not as linear as I would like, that’s for sure. But as long as we continue to treat ourselves with love, care, respect, and kindness (the NML mandate), the healing will continue.
Good post! I still work to shake off the bred-in-the-bone message that I can’t both eat what I like and be svelte enough for a man “with standards.” So I always thought I had to starve myself in order to “win.” I fight to counter that message with: “What kind of douche would be with you, then try to control you and your eating with threats of looking elsewhere for sexier women?” (God, my father (bless him) was a douche when I was young!) If anyone has a tip on how to really, genuinely see my cellulity legs through the eyes of love, pass it on!
On the broader who-am-I-in-society front, I know that I compromised my values in order to be with a man who was my entrée into the “winners circle” of my city. It was a very painful, but significant day, the day I said to myself that if being this untrue to myself is what it takes to “win,” then it’s not winning to me anyway, no matter how beautiful the ocean view, or how smooth the granite countertops. It pained me to see this dishonest, manipulative person sitting at what seemed to me the winners’ table of life. When I learned that he got kicked out of his big position, and for the moment, is kicked out of his spot at the winners’ table, it was a big boost to my sense of self. The news suggested that there are “winners” who aren’t bending over backwards to stay connected to this man. Winning doesn’t always have to mean sucking some jerk’s d*ck (figuratively or otherwise).
One last example: in my research work/studies, there are lots of professors who will tell me and other students what they have to do to get a job, to move up, etc. The typical way to succeed is to find the most visibly successful prof, find a way to become their protegée, and do perfect work that makes them look good. Then they help get you in. This is all good, except that so many high-profile profs take advantage of their juniors’ need and require all kinds of boundary-busting behaviour from the junior in order to secure their support. There are always students willing to reshape themselves completely, and many of them do win positions, but by that time (to my mind) most of them have ceased to have any genuinely challenging thoughts. I guess it’s just selling out that I’m describing – people do it all the time.
“You have to ask yourself how quickly will you sell you out?” A good question, Natalie, for all aspects of life where we are trying to gain something. I don’t know how it can be avoided if one doesn’t know and love who that inner “you” is in the first place. All comes back to the self-love track, again, as usual!!
Hi Magnolia
Interesting stuff
We have to be very very wary of men who will use and abuse their position to get their needs met. They are the very worst kinds of AC. The thrill of the initial attention from someone with status gives you a tremendous high but leaves you very vulnerable to manipulation and abuse – which they then use to their own ends. But like all assclownery it comes crashing down with a terrible low when they move on to the next one. The academic world is set up to facilitate ACs perfectly. BR women beware!
Polly,
Yes strangely enough my MM/AC was an academic with a “reputation”, and I am disgusted with myself as to how flattered I was. How shallow. I know he’s got a huge narcissistic harem (I remember him mentioning his “fans”).
Oh, Magnolia, don’t torture yourself with „HAVING TO LOVE“ your “cellulity legs” (or any other body part). Yes, self-love is vital. But: NOBODY is perfect and NO BODY is perfect. Beauty fades. Any woman will find at least one part she really doesn’t like, even super-models do! Maybe you feel like regarding your body parts as community or group members. There will always be one annoying idiot on board. Or: If your legs had ears they wouldn’t accept your “love” anyway knowing how much you had to force yourself to do so and keep struggling. Do you want an EU/AC relationship with your legs? They would know, even go NC on you. We learn to refuse crumbs. So would your legs. No thank you. 😉 Why not try a little friendship, at least sincere appreciation for them for walking you through life, carrying your weight and being at service whenever you walk from A to B. Love can’t be forced. I for example have tiny fingernails and look with envy on all those red-lacquered claws. My set was dealt to me, no “loving them” ever worked out. So what! Have mercy with your legs, be honest to them and admit that you won’t be able to love them. They will appreciate your honesty and carry you graciously whatsoever. Doesn’t that shed a new light on them?
Another thought: There is no way to become fully human when we are glued to the mirror. Actually it is a burden. When we reach past the age of looking like food, predators won’t see us! When nobody is starring at you, you can relax and take in the world around you. Others will love you or not – regardless of your opinion of yourself. That’s because your looks don’t belong to you, they belong to the beholder. So relax and thank you for all your input. x
“Do you want an EU/AC relationship with your legs? They would know, even go NC on you.”
“Why not try a little friendship, at least sincere appreciation for them for walking you through life, carrying your weight and being at service whenever you walk from A to B. ”
” Others will love you or not – regardless of your opinion of yourself. ”
Arlena, you are fabulous and wonderful for writing those quotes. They have helped me today like you would not believe. As someone who struggles with my weight and food on a daily basis, with constant thoughts on how much I want to change my body, thank you for sharing your positivity. I should and will embrace my body for the beauty it is, for it does not reflect who I am as a person. Being out of control with my weight does not make me less worthy of having a positive, happy, mutual relationship.
Ha ha Arlena! Do I want an EU relationship with my legs? Indeed, they might walk away from me if they could, after all the disapproval I send their way. And my much maligned butt would no doubt help them do it!
Oh, and when I think that I was so much harder on myself when I was twenty years younger … never good enough! I like your suggestion not to try and force anything. That I don’t have to suddenly fall in love with parts of me that I don’t want to. Nonetheless, I have been a jerk-off, looking at me always with the eyes of the imaginary man who will be disappointed when he sees x, y, z … thanks for making me laugh about it!
“…that they will find someone else, because they would have remained with you if only you’d done it. This is an illusion. What you need to actually focus on is the fact that they will find someone else to do what you don’t actually want to do (and will feel crappy about after doing) anyway.”
Oh Nat, that is so true. I could have literally laid around like a super-trendy doormat on my ex’s doorstep and you know what? He still wouldn’t have stuck with me. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and another chance and…he was still at the bar, trying to pick up girls. I was incensed! I had really put myself out there and been willing to give it a shot and this was the “thanks” I got?! In fact, one of the ways I was really able to get over him was to say to myself, “You know what? You did everything you could. You doled out all the chances you’re going to and this is who he is. It’s not your fault/your loss/your deficiencies, as it turns out.” I’ll still get pathetic texts from him every once in a while and I’d wager quite a bit on a guess that it’s happening when there are no available doormats around for him to walk on. Big loss for me right there! *Snicker*
p.s. That picture is classic. Ohmygod, the Flames of Desperation are not “hot” girls!
“In fact, one of the ways I was really able to get over him was to say to myself, “You know what? You did everything you could. You doled out all the chances you’re going to and this is who he is. It’s not your fault/your loss/your deficiencies, as it turns out.”
Thanks, Natasha, just reading your words gave me comfort. So true, there comes a time when you have to throw in the towel and just let. it. be. I can’t move a mountain or get blood from a stone. I don’t have divine powers to make an alcoholic stop drinking and value me; I can’t make a married man leave his wife for me. The fault lies in my bad choices more than myself.
Blueberry Girl, I’m so glad I could help 🙂 I love how you brought up that it’s our questionable choices, not our questionable SELVES! It really does help to get over it to realize this. Interestingly enough, I thought on my last go-around with this jackass, “Oh, well he treats me like crap because I’m not putting up enough boundaries and acting like I deserve respect.” So I put boundaries up (yes, this was basically moot because I gave him another shot, but still haha!) and guess what? Same sh*t, different day. There is no winning with these guys!
Exactly–these guys don’t treat women badly as a result of a woman’s poor boundaries, they do it because they’re a**holes. A decent man would not come along, notice a vulnerability, and then set about to use and abuse it. A woman with boundaries will get rid of one of these guys a lot sooner, but her boundaries will not miraculously result in him being a changed man who suddenly treats women with respect.
I liked this as well: “You did everything you could. You doled out all the chances you’re going to and this is who he is.” This same thought helped me as well–yes I’m sad to let go of it, but what more could I have done? As Nat has said, we can’t put all of the blame for the demise of a relationship on ourselves AND take full responsibility for making it work.
“because you will gain far more out of standing by you”
Thank you for this Natalie, this line seriously jumps out at me.
“This” is what scares me: I don’t ever want to sell myself out again, not even in small ways. I have gained a tremendous amount of self-awareness and knowledge, and understanding, etc., but in that moment where my voice tells me a boundary is being busted, will I listen? Will I hear it? Will the voice be loud or soft? Will I walk the walk when I really like a guy?
I feel as if I’ve changed, and I know self-love, and I definitely take care of myself now; I feel my own power, but I still worry that in that moment…ughhhhhh, I just don’t know because I am still catching myself repeating bad habits, or getting ready to do something that is not in my best interest, and then self-correcting…you know, the application stage, and God help me if I get lost in my hormones, and act a fool for a man. It is that dang chemistry, drugged out–rose colored glasses that I fear.
And, there is this man at my church that I am interested in, and I think he is interested in me, and I am trying not to think about him, or fantasize about him, but dang it, he makes me smile;yet, I still haven’t created my own life yet, so I’ve decided that I just won’t date until I am fulfilled on my own, but if this man asks me out, I will probably go, so I just run away from him every time I see him coming, and I guess I will keep running from anyone that I feel that pull of attraction for until I have my own life, and I can trust myself enough…wish I was stronger, but I don’t know that I am, and I just won’t risk my progress because I really want my own life and my own happiness, and then I want to be able to say, “come share my world,” not ” come be my world” as I did in the past.
“I just won’t risk my progress because I really want my own life and my own happiness, and then I want to be able to say, “come share my world,” not ” come be my world” as I did in the past.”
Wise words, Sugar and Spice. It sucks to turn down a guy in the moment for the long-term of building up YOU, but I’ve done the trying to be fulfilled by a guy thing so many times, and have felt the embarrassment and insecurity of someone seeing how I’m not fully engaged in my own life, and trying to pretend I do, that I just don’t want to go down that road anymore.
I have been taking some risks with work recently – I just went and presented poetry research to a bunch of scientists this weekend, and LOVED the experience. I looked around the room at one of the panels, and wondered, how is everyone’s love life here? Who is looking for a shag at this conference, and who is missing being away from their family? It’s hard to explain, but the whole sense of where a family life fits into my whole life seemed different when I was in a space where I felt like I was fully engaged with my career, and wanted to work with people around me.
Maybe it’s not career that you’re looking for, but I relate to wanting your own full life before being drawn into someone else’s. Before, when I found a guy I liked, I felt pulled off course, like I was a feather in the breeze. Lately I feel more like my life has a track, I’m moving along in it with some momentum and weight. It would take something pretty major, or someone pretty great, to move me off of it.
Magnolia
The right man won’t pull you off track. He will encourage you on it, and walk beside you. You won’t have to be a less-than-Magnolia to have that; you will be fully yourself.
You’re going to get that. I know you are.
There’s a guy, a business contact, who always seemed to somewhat fancy me, and during the past weeks, I’ve called him a little bit more frequently than before. We always talked about business only, but my two most recent calls he didn’t take. They got forwarded to their assistant instead, and she passed me to someone else on his team (I didn’t ask for him in particular).
This made me wonder: Is he ignoring me because I’m bothering him too much??? Anyway, if that had been the case, I should have just heeded the message and “flushed” him I guess. Nothing to beat myself up over, in any case! More likely, he was simply not in his office or busy.
Today, unexpectedly, he was on the phone again, again for business, but before we ended the call, he started what sounded a lot like (light) flirting. Only, I wasn’t in the mood, because my mind was occupied with some important, complicated, exciting and urgent project. I chatted with him for a while anyway, but only half-heartedly.
Afterwards, I wondered: Why didn’t I feel more comfortable? Because he flirted (Grace, I get your point that flirting in itself might be questionable)? Because I am EU? Because there might have been some red flags I ignored (although none comes to mind so far)?
Or maybe just because my mind was on the project? I think this is quite possible, too. As a child, I was always expected to focus COMPLETELY on my parents (whenever they wanted an ego boost or felt the urge to abuse me – otherwise they ignored me and didn’t want to be bothered!), but I guess this isn’t normal anyway. It’s okay if my mind is occupied with things that have nothing to do with a particular person.
On the other hand, maybe there was really something about his behavior my subconscious mind didn’t like, but at this point, I’m unable to tell. But I guess it’s okay to take my time to judge.
I have to remind myself that guys shouldn’t take that much brain space. Either we get on well together, or not. If I can’t stay true to myself, it’s not worth it.
Elle
I am painfully aware that I am not living what I’m about to say next but:
This is not a big deal. He hasn’t done anything wrong. Flriting per se is not a red flag. I just no longer see it is a sign of Definite Interest. Some people just flirt. Babies do it!
While it’s too early to see him as relationship material, it’s also way too early to yell FLUSH.
If we are hesitant – isn’t he allowed to be hesitant too? If we feel we have put ourselves out there and he hasn’t responded, isn’t he allowed to feel that too? The problem with expecting men to do all the chasing is that we attract – chasers. And chasers are no longer interested when they’ve caught you.
I’ve been seeking advice from women I know in long-term relationships/marriages who are not FBGs or even ex-FBGs. They’ve been telling me – “Make sure he knows you like him. He won’t make a move unless he knows you won’t turn him down. It takes a lot for a man to approach a woman”.
So I can’t ignore him and play hard to get? I can’t play it cool? No – that’s the fast track to AC central.
I’m not saying you should pursue him or even ask him out but don’t expect him to charm you, flatter you, chase you or even try to get you into bed within x hours. We’re done with that. We want the men who are not so eager to call the shots.
How do so many of our FBG stories begin:
“He pursued me … he was so charming …”
We all know what happens next!
I don’t think decent men are that good at seducing women, they haven’t had the practice or they just don’t want to. It has to be more mutual, and that means extending ourselves.
@Grace: I’m sure you’re right. My somewhat awkward calls once or twice a week (“Hi, it’s Elly again. I was wondering whether you could tell me…” – but I always made sure I had a good excuse!) were an attempt to let him know I might be interested without pushing things. When he started flirting with me, I took it as a signal he got the message. We seem to be two people who don’t know each other well, but who might be interested in each other. It’s nothing more than a remote possibility right now, but I guess that’s the way such things often work (between “normal” people, that is).
Too bad I wasn’t in the mood for flirting, but I think those things just happen (btw, yesterday’s project went well, and I received a lot of praise for it!). I guess I could simply call him again in a few days when I feel like it (with another good excuse). If it feels right, I could try to chat with him a little, maybe referring to our last conversation in some way.
Unfortunately, there is so much uncertainty to deal with. Horrible! LOL. I guess this is exactly what I need to work on, learning how to deal with uncertainty. Thanks for reminding me!
Heavy pursuing would be wrong, I’m completely agree. I would take it as a red flag now!
@ Grace
“If we are hesitant – isn’t he allowed to be hesitant too?”
Precisly what I am going through righ now. Went to a date with a guy at met at an christian online dating site. He was super nice, gentleman ( he open doors, etc. ), pay for all bills, lunch and movie and snacks, wow, I have been in assclownville so long that didn’t remember how that feel :).
Anyway, he had texted me a few times since, and last weekend was the week and weekend he has his son so I knew in advance he would be busy, anyhow he text me a couple of times. Of course I would like to have another date, but as you said, he is also allowed to be hesitant and I don’t need to freak out. Hopefully we will be seeing each other again. He said he would even go shopping with me, house stuff shopping, since I am buying a new home.
good point, grace!!
“I have been taking some risks with work recently – I just went and presented poetry research to a bunch of scientists this weekend, and LOVED the experience.
…..
Lately I feel more like my life has a track, I’m moving along in it with some momentum and weight. ”
That’s fabulous Magnolia! When I read this, it made me smile. Thank you for sharing your successes. It is sooooooooo inspiring to me; it really gives me hope because I soooooooooooo want to feel the way you feel. …live this way…. 🙂 🙂
Wow, “come share my world” not “come be my world.”
I’m going to print this out and put it up around my house. I know that part of what hurts so bad with these ACs too is that they don’t want to share my world…so then, instead of telling them to get lost, I feel so worthless and unlovable, I twist myself inside out to get them to BE my world, to give me that love and attention, even if it’s negative attention. I give up so quickly on believing I have worth, I lose any sight of myself, that MY interests and MY time are just as important as his, that I spiral down into depression, self loathing, agony, and all the while just pretty much begging him to build me back up. Natalie talks about “you’re not going crazy, but you feel like you are” so much, this is exactly what happens to me. I’ve done better with not spiriling….but if I’m totally honest, the extreme episodes have come about lately. ACs never really have more than maybe one foot in the relationship, so they never really had my world in mind, that was NEVER a priority, that was NEVER their plan. Then the minute I act “needy” as the AC says, he tells me I need to get a life of my own. Then…I feel even worse. God it’s so debilitating.
oh man i swear your posts usually coincide with what im thinking or struggling in my head.
there are times when i feel kinda sad that im not part of my x’s life , the last thing he tried to do for me was offer me job positions etc etc but i made the decision to turn it down and cut contact with him. Its been a year since and this blog helped me alot in keeping my sanity and getting my self in check.
My relationship with that x was dependent, even after we broke up we still had moments where we fooled around and hooked up until I couldn’t put up with the casual arrangement. It was totally messing with my head , the last straw must have been when i told him i didn’t like the FWB set up and for a while he did back off … but then eventually he came around asking when we could “screw again ” and for a time being I kinda played along with it but finally pretty much put my foot down.
Now that i’m a year in NC i would still have those times where i feel like ” If only i would have let it slip and we were still screw buddies at least i really wont be lonely” then i come back to my senses and remind myself that i deserve so much more and that i really need to knock him down the pedestal.
A huge part of me is so thankful I broke that pattern and i can’t believe i was so insecure that i let stuff like that happen … i deserve so much better and iam still learning healthy ways to approach things and this blog helped me so much!
Now that i’m a year in NC i would still have those times where i feel like ” If only i would have let it slip and we were still screw buddies at least i really wont be lonely” then i come back to my senses and remind myself that i deserve so much more and that i really need to knock him down the pedestal.
Oh dear. I’m soooo embarrassed to admit that after sleeping with them and them disappearing for a little while, I got managed right down to hug friend- that’s right. No sex, no kissing. I could go over on the weekend and get hugs – that was it. Then all these texts would come on my phone for ego strokes and I’d wonder if I’d just hung around a bit more they’d choose me.
And yes, I had started wondering if it were possible to have a relationship without sex, if I had just had stayed around for hugs, well at least that surely was something wasn’t it? Maybe that might grow? Then I reminded myself that I did not want to be around to see the next person arrive on scene AND I was being treated like some kind of PET!
Ugh, I cannot believe I went that low!
Biggest mistake ever!
Won’t be doing that again – FLUSH!
How about being that pet? or a “pet project”? Yep, Project P., and when I asked what he meant, he said: “Oh, nothing…” And maybe he even meant well? Or maybe he got other “benefits” from Project P. ? Is this a cringe day or what?
I went through EXACTLY the same experience Tired. And I waited around for the next person to be offered what got withdrawn from me. Only then I bailed. Wish I did it before. Makes me really mad at myself . They all need flushing down a very large and smelly toilet…like the one in Trainspotting
Wow, really? That’s amazing! I thought I was the only one settling for cuddle crumbs. How bad is that? I was so deluded!
Yep it’s bad alright. Cuddle crumbes done deliberately to make you feel like you are not quite attractive enough. I was made to feel like it was my fault that he had issues with physical intimacy with me. I’m sure there are 1000s of men who don’t want sex with me – but they don’t try and have a relationship with me either! It is just another way to control you.
FLUSHHHHHHHHH!
‘Now that i’m a year in NC i would still have those times where i feel like ” If only i would have let it slip and we were still screw buddies at least i really wont be lonely” then i come back to my senses and remind myself that i deserve so much more and that i really need to knock him down the pedestal. ‘
I know this line of thinking well. I’ve caught myself doing internal bargaining: “Well, maaaaybe if we just keep it to kissing and cuddling, I’d be OK with it.” Yeah, right!
What helps me — in addition to reminding myself that I deserve more, as you’ve stated — is to think about how extra-lonely I’d feel after a casual shag. That hollowed-out, depleted feeling….shudder. It’s much worse than going without.
“Now that i’m a year in NC i would still have those times where i feel like ” If only i would have let it slip and we were still screw buddies at least i really wont be lonely” then i come back to my senses and remind myself that i deserve so much more and that i really need to knock him down the pedestal.”
I have times like that still – and I made my big stand in 2010. It does sometimes feel as though the universe has punished me severely for having boundaries… er no, it’s punished me severely for letting people who had no respect for my boundaries take so much power in my life.
I’m having a bad week with everything this week, Nat’s post has come at a really good time – I HAVE to stick to what I know is true and what I believe is right. I do NOT want a future in which I have to act in a shitty way or accept shitty behaviour.
I love the timing of this one. I was so confused and afraid of standing up for myself and doing what i felt was right ,because I might lose this person. truth is i never really had the guy, and the shitty part is I was chasing what were crumbs. I did something and felt foolish. Love shouldn’t make you feel foolish.
I really need some input on this. I did some things recently I am not proud of (I’ve done many things in my past too, I’m not proud of) all for the sake of getting the “win”. I was afraid if I did not participate in what he wanted that I would lose him. And I thought “this time would be different” (the many times I’ve told myself that one!) I ended up doing whatever he wanted hoping for something…… I’d been taught having boundaries or saying NO is not acceptable and people leave when you do that. So I have let others walk all over me and use me for their gratification until they find the next one.
In some situations I ended up being verbally abused and recently, I can see I’ve only diminished what self-respect I had and it looks as though I’m losing anyway (again). From the start, my instinct told me I was going too far for my comfort zone but I paid no attention. I talked myself into doing something to please him. I sent mixed messages, yes. I saw that other people were doing it too and told myself it’s alright if I do it too. Something must be wrong with me if I can’t do it. If these other people are doing it and they seem fine with it, then it’s fine. In the end, I felt crummy about myself and used. I busted up a boundary I had, I went too far for what is good for me and now I’m dealing with the embarrassment of it. And it was all to keep someone around! My question is if so many people are doing this one thing and I find I am uncomfortable with it, then does that mean something is wrong with me? That I need to “loosen up”? And should I do it anyway to “teach” myself to be ok with it? I can’t really say what it is because it’s embarrassing but I hope the point of my question is still clear.
coloro
Are you taking a dating break? I think you should because your lack of boundaries could put you in danger. It’s quite worrying.
I don’t know what sex act you are referring to but if there’s one thing in life that should be mutual, surely it’s sex?
You’re a woman. He’s supposed to cherish and protect you, not force you to do stuff you don’t want to do.
My dear colororange,
In my wisdom of advanced age (ahem), I’ve discovered that it’s best not to give a rat’s ass whether someone else is doing something or not.
You don’t need to “loosen up” or get with the program or morph and contort to please anyone.
Your very words: “I’ve only diminished what self-respect I had and it looks as though I’m losing anyway (again)” and “I felt crummy about myself and used,” tell me this is a boundary you ought not to cross again. Trust your gut; it’s giving you the correct answer.
“My question is if so many people are doing this one thing and I find I am uncomfortable with it, then does that mean something is wrong with me? That I need to “loosen up”? And should I do it anyway to “teach” myself to be ok with it?”
Color – I think you know the answer to this question. I’m more interested in why you have to check with us to get your answer. Who, short of legislators, can tell you what you can and can’t do? And more to the point, who should control what you will and won’t do?
One of my best gfs is not comfortable giving head. She’s got the best marriage I know of, of most of my friends. She just found herself a guy who doesn’t care, or at least doesn’t care enough to let her go or try to convince her to like something she doesn’t.
When I was in my won’t-shave-my-legs phase (talk about something everyone else seems ‘fine’ with), I simply ended up with guys who didn’t give a crap about whether my legs were shaved. (I remember the first guy who gave me grief about my bikini area. I was like, wtf? You can’t criticize that!!)
I understand that these days, housewives are taking pole-dance-while-having-anal-sex-with-your-dog classes at the local fitness studio, but whatever. There are men out there with a clue enough to appreciate a decent woman happy to simply take her clothes off with them.
Do whatcha like, color, as the hiphop heroes used to say. Just don’t apologize for choosing to have boundaries.
Magnolia “I understand that these days, housewives are taking pole-dance-while-having-anal-sex-with-your-dog classes at the local fitness studio, but whatever.” No truer words have ever been spoken. My sister has been married for 25 years and is a very upstanding compassionate Christian woman. I would absolutely HATE it if she became single and had to put up with the worldly crap/standard us single ladies are expected to cow tow to. That’s why I am so grateful for this website and the ladies here that ‘opting’ out of all this bullsh-t!
I talked myself into doing something to please him. I sent mixed messages, yes. I saw that other people were doing it too and told myself it’s alright if I do it too. Something must be wrong with me if I can’t do it. If these other people are doing it and they seem fine with it, then it’s fine. In the end, I felt crummy about myself and used.
I’ve been reading stuff on wiki…
Information cascade is commonly seen in groups under immediate stress from external forces, such as in herd behavior[2]. The effect is to cause group decisions based on few signals and can often be against what the individual believes to be true. Because it is usually sensible to do what other people are doing, the phenomenon is assumed to be the result of rational choice.
Bottom line – if you surround yourself with unhealthy people, with unhealthy beliefs, you may well normalise and then override yourself / your internal alarms to give yourself and edge because ‘other people do it’. I used to ask all my friends of what I should do in situation X, much of the time their advice was not that great.
Crowds can be irrational – I’ve lost count of the number of people who are only too happy to spill out hurt stories 101 about their bastard/psycho ex. Getting burnt from casual is actually more common than I thought – I know at least three or four people that got burnt this way.
Yeah, and the AC told me that “I think it’s the norm to date multiple people”. Ha! FLUSH!
Tired, I dont ask my friends advice on anything anymore. They are all either FBG’s, EU’s, or any number of the things we list that we dislike on BR that we have actually done ourselves. We are all trying to make better choices in dating but I’m the only one who seeked therapy, group sessions and regularly read BR to keep myself in check. I remember when my last ac broke up with me and 2 days later called to say he’d made a big mistake. Everyone but me thought I should give him another chance, so guess what, I did. No more, I only listen to me now and me only. If I’m wrong so be it but at least I dont have a host of FBG’s giving me advice.
Social conformity is extremely powerful
See this video – there is clearly nothing there, no rope – but even when people SEE that, they override their own judgement and act as if something is present. Amazing!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMLd4ohAffQ
Coloro
This thing, whatever it is, how can you be *sure* all other people are doing it? Perhaps they’re not. Did this guy tell you that ‘everyone does it’? (if so, I would suspect this was designed to make you feel like the oddity if you don’t do it). I can tell you something for sure – whatever this thing is, I am not doing it! (and I am one of ‘everybody else’)
That aside, and as has already been said, it doesn’t matter if the whole world is doing it (which I doubt very much!), that doesn’t mean you need to follow. Another thought… if ‘everybody else is doing it’ maybe they are only doing it cos they also think everybody else is doing it!? Point is, what you think or are being told everybody else is doing (which they will not be) is neither here nor there because you are not ‘everybody else’ – you are you.
What could it be? I have no idea; it would be helpful if you hinted, CO… I was told a few times: “Oh, everyone is sleeping with someone while they are waiting for the right person to appear, if you don’t do that, you are narrowing your choices.” After a while I started doubting myself – should I have gone on the date, anyway? But the guy clearly had a FWB and even said he would be “willing to give her up” when “something better came along”. I just could not do that even though he was interesting, educated, legally single (other than the casual relationship, ha ha.)
colororange, have you had a chance to read NML’s “I am not that woman” post? It’s immensely self-affirming, and speaks to the issue you raise.
Here’s a link to it:
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/im-not-that-woman-an-ode-for-every-woman-who-has-loved-lost-and-forgotten-her-value/
I re-read it regularly. It helps inoculate me against guys who try to pull that nonsense about “B-b-but all those OTHER women are willing to do [X, Y, or Z]. Why won’t YOU?”
We are not those women!
I had a man i was in a casual relationship with tell me he’d love to see another man have sex with me. he never pressured me to do anything but it didn’t matter, to me the damage was done in the words. It hurt like crazy because I had feelings for him. I considered doing it, I wanted to make him happy, and some people told me “some guys are just into that” I didn’t want it to be the guy I was with! I wanted him to want me to himself. I never ended up doing it, and I don’t judge anyones lifestyle. but to me, that is the ultimate in detatched sex.
i did this as well, only I am embarrassed that it wasn’t even “dating”. they were casual situations that I thought if i was very available for sex, let them know I couldn’t wait to see again, and was not demanding that it would pay off for me and I would “win” them for being so low maintenance. That seriously backfired on me and them when I wouldn’t take the hint to back off and became “high” maintenance . I kind of felt cheated. Like I gave up so much to be available to you, why can’t I get attention when *i* need it! that never works , i have tried it over and over for 3 years( yes, very slow learner)
You can’t sex them into commitment, you really can’t. If that were true, hookers would be so popular to have LTR with and would be relationship experts – clearly they aren’t.
“Just like fear means it’s not happening, if you genuinely fear that they’ll be offski if you don’t acquiesce or jump on their requests like an eager beaver intern, it means that whatever idea you have for a relationship isn’t happening or going to happen either.”
I still get the urge to make contact, yet, when I imagine meeting or seeing him again, what I feel is fear and anxiety. Even though he never said a cross word, made a disparaging remark, or failed to turn up/call/email when he said he would. He prided himself on being sensitive, cultured, feminist etc. His whole career was built on his ethical credentials and caring for the victim and the underdog. But underlying it all, he had complete contempt for me, that realisation crept up on me, I don’t know quite how I came to know it, but I did. I was for some time trying to turn it round, including degrading sexual behaviour.
The most awful time was the last moment I saw him at the train station, he went to kiss me goodbye (I had already said, in a lame and hesitant way, it was over, sort of) and I pushed him away, and I could see in his healthy, well nourished face (I myself was ill) he Did.Not.Give.A.Shit.
mymble
When I was sunk in the anxiety and depression brought on by the playa, he sent me a text inviting me to … an orgy.
You’re right – they don’t give a shit. And the more you bust your own boundaries, the less they care. They start to behave like wolves, though that’s an insult to wolves.
I didn’t go to the orgy by the way. Whatever happened to a nice walk in the park?
Grace,
Wasn’t that, although he had made wistful remarks about threesomes, so perhaps if I had stuck around I’d have received an invitation to one of those too.
My friend has a saying “Don’t wag your tail”, by which she means keep your dignity and don’t try too hard – in the contexts of social situations – but it applies equally in relationships.
I wagged my tail so hard it nearly dropped off.
Just finally severed ties FOR GOOD with my beloved AC and I found myself in that kinda sad, nostalgic mood this morning, thinking about the “good” times, which has tripped me up in the past. This post was such a welcome kick in the pants back to reality. Thank you, Natalie.
My particular AC was a MM who told me he’d be leaving his wife by X date, which of course never came to fruition. As the date passed and I chose not to hold firm to my “I’m outta here if you don’t leave” threat, he started pushing boundaries further and further sexually. His objective was to score a 3-way and he started leveraging him moving out as the incentive to get me to participate in one. Any chance he got, he’d bring up how I should proposition one of my friends to join us, and it got to the point where he wasn’t even offering to move out, just to move UP the date when he would. AND, as an “extra” incentive this jerk started only being interested in hanging out when there was the possiblity of one of my friends joining us. Thank God I never went through with it, because I know I still wouldn’t “have” him, and now I wouldn’t have my dignity, either. I wish I were making this up. But writing it out REALLY helps me to once again see why I should not be pining away for this guy. He pushed my boundaries any way he could. So thankful he’s out of my life now.
Guy tries to leverage your desire for a monogamous relationship with him into you having a 3-way with him while he’s married to someone else. Horrible, manipulative, opportunistic, disrespectful, immature USER. I am so angry on your behalf! And so glad you took your power back. What’s next, he’s going to threaten his wife he’ll leave her if she doesn’t agree to “swing” with him? What’s with disrespecting an intimate human connection with these puerile, porn-fed, selfish demands.
Thanks ixnay, I’m angry for myself! And I don’t think you’re too far off the mark. Right before I told him to get lost for good, he had the nerve to suggest that I hit up HIS WIFE for a girl-on-girl romp. She’d found texts/emails from us so she was on to him, and he said he thought it would give him the leverage he needed to be able to leave her without having to pay alimony since she would be a “cheater” then, too. Also, he thought it would make a good cover story, that I’d actually contacted him because I was interested in being with her and was curious if she “swung” that way. Of course the woman hated me and I can’t imagine how horribly that would have gone had I been foolish enough to approach her. But he didn’t care, no skin off his back — he had nothing to lose, and if she’d agreed to it, he asked if he would be able to watch. Sick F***. So, so, sooooo glad to be done with his AC ways!
Nat,
Over the last two years I have taken to bookmarking or printing out the BR posts that are most relevant to me… and this by far has to be one of the most applicable to my once very broken understanding of how to function in relationships (that were not functional). It’s funny how, certain behaviours and values are now unquestionably deal breakers for me, where once I would have tried to make it work no matter what, and even when I was “successful” I wasn’t happy. I felt devalued and disrespected, not only by my partner but (I eventually came to understand) by myself!
After the relationships ended, I’d be stuck in “shoulda coulda woulda” land… for something that I didn’t even WANT!!!!! I had had the relationships, but at what cost? By the end of the last one I was having heart palpitations… at what point do I say “WTF are you doing to yourself Jasmine?!” Anyhow…
Thanks again! Your advice and insight is priceless 🙂
So true, so true. You have hit the nail on the head here. I pretended (the operative word there) I was cool with so much crap – him being an hour late all the time, him not committing, him lying and me pretending he wasn’t. All so that I could seem “cool” and “not demanding”. He walked in the door saying he was commitment phobic, and that was why he was still single (AND LIVING WITH HIS MOTHER!!) at age 41, having never had a serious relationship. Ever. How many red flags can you count in that sentence alone (it’s the assclown version of “Where’s Waldo”).
I can no longer pretend (there’s that word again) that I did it because I was low maintenance or easy going. I was just easy, as in so desperate, I thought if I didn’t scare him off, I would win. What would I have won? A lying assclown who lives with his mother and treats women like dirt. No, no, ladies….I saw him first.
Just shoot me now.
ABG, your last lines have made me laugh three different times today! Sounds like you at least have some humour about your mistakes. Not so long ago, I might have arm-wrassled ya for ‘im!!
Totally agree with that. Key phrase being “don’t really want to do,” or doesn’t feel good to you. Another extreme is a guy being willing to leave you because you do certain things…..without discussing them with you, first – to see if they are things you don’t do or aren’t willing to do – or whether sure, you can easily accommodate that. (For instance, one guy was extremely irked – he’s a very tall man – that there were cobwebs at the top of my porch, and that “I didn’t even notice”. For crissakes, say something! He finally did, I got out there with a broom, nice to have them gone. Poof. I am short and did not look up, LOL.)
I used to do more of that sell-out behavior to keep guys and “adapt” to them when I was young. Now that I’m older….uh….no!
Keep the cobwebs. It’s the “cobweb test.” The keeper is the guy who walks into the cobwebs and starts laughing.
I went out with this guy briefly… he was terrific, but logistically unavailable (leaving town). Anyhow, he comes over and I’ve got very little in the house, offer him some corn chips, and then realize they are totally stale. He’s like, corn chips are always good, thanks. He did not go off on me about my lifestyle or lack of culinary skills or where’s the homemade salsa to wash down these stale chips. Like my recent ex, who sneeringly recited the ingredients of the hot sauce I had out: “First you serve me *eggs*, and then you expect me to put this shit on them?” Being on the edge of tears or panic all the time is not love.
Colororange
I don’t think it matters what the subject of your embarrassment is. I can relate as I accepted a shady character into my life years ago and did plenty of things that I couldnt tell my closest friend about! I bust a shedload of boundaries in the interest of keeping the guy. He had plenty of other girls and guys willing to participate so I tried to match them and convince myself I was just experimenting. My gut said otherwise and I tied myself in knots not wanting to rock the boat and ‘lose’ the guy. He’d accuse me of being childish if I couldn’t accept an open relationship. He’d say I had trust issues when I questioned the sexual health of his other chosen ones and I competed for his attention as though he was a prize worth winning at the risk to my mental and physical well-being. Bottom line is is that if it makes you uncomfortable, even if the world and his wives are doing it, then its not right for YOU. That situation made me feel weak, disabled in some way and that I was missing out. Unsurprisingly, I felt stronger, able and fulfilled once I broke the spell and saw him for what he was. Just a f..ked up guy who wanted it all and would take what he could get.
Stay true to you. By all means, experiment, but if every fibre in your body says somethings not right, bail…sharpish!
Xxx
I think part of this crossing our own boundaries comes down to overvaluing sex, having disproportionate responses and hoping that if we just give them the BIGGEST orgasm they’ll put us on their honour roll and we’ll magically get 1st place for LTR (magical thinking).
How many of us are guilty of trying to put on the best sex ever to sex Mr Unavailable
into commitment and make that our ‘point of difference’
NML had a post a while back https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/proportionate-responses-its-just-a-text/ and I think a ‘It’s JUST sex’ would be an apt adaptation!
If you have sex and attach any of these meanings and:
1) Start imagining your future
2) Respond back by pouring out your feelings
3) Invite them around for more shags
4) Cancel your plans or put everything on hold
5) Go into a tailspin and begin ruminating about what it all means, the Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda and yada yada yada
6) Call and keep calling in the hope they’ll pick up
7) Dump your current partner
8. Turn up at their home/office/place where they hang
9) Tell them all about themselves, or
10) Contact their new partner,
you’ve had a seriously disproportionate response.
You are experiencing high intensity emotions/rumination or engaging in high level action for low level contact and effort.
Plead guilty to numbers 1 through 5 inclusive.
i too plead guilty from numbers 1-5…
Well, I hope you’d gently dump your current partner if you’re out shagging someone else! For the partner’s sake!
Guilty of 1-5 also!
I recently went on a date with a guy who was friends with the guy my friend was seeing. I’d met him once and we all went out the following week. We had a great night and he was very tactile with me all evening and I must admit it felt pretty good. He’s a nice looking guy.
I was pretty suspicious though that he was after sex and tempting though it was I’d made up my mind it wasn’t happening.
We all got a cab back to mine and the guys stayed over.
He did try it on but got nowhere, I didn’t give in. In the morning he left with his friend without taking my number or asking to see me again…..surprise, surprise!
I felt quite empowered because I could have quite easily been the victim of a one night stand! If I had slept with him he probably would still have buggered off without taking my number! And then I’d have felt really crap!
So yeah….you should definitely NOT bust your boundaries!!
BGirl I feel the same way. Have been reading posts for 4 months now. Have never posted before. But yours made me finally write. I did this for 8 unbelievable years. Finally feeling better after BR. Damn wish I had this years ago. NC and getting better.
And I’m so thankful for all of you!. I’m doing so much better because your stories have helped me to be strong.
Wow all, these are some seriously brilliant, sad, and tremendously helpful comments. Every time I read Natalie’s posts, it’s like you are peeking over my back fence, that’s okay btw. Then I read all of your comments and it’s like you are all here. I identify with every comment.
It’s spring here, the weather is warm, I live two miles from the beach…thus you are welcome here any time. I’ve ousted all of the shady characters out of my house, so there is room!
It’s odd though, once the shady characters have been booted to the curb, I’ve been faced with just me. I’ve been the hardest case for me to win. I’m gambling on me now. Based on my former bad bets, there’s only one good bet left…me!
Hi All,
It’s going on 12am and I’ve been sitting here reading all of your stories, some of which have had my mouth agape. I am >6months NC from a MM. I’ve learned so much via BR and self-help materials. As a result I’ve changed alot and still feel myself changing. I used to be so open, honest, trusting, had NO filters or boundaries. Being a person of extremes, I find that now I’m leaning far to the right. Now, I’m tough, brash, overly skeptical and cynical almost as if I’m unconsciously at war with the opposite sex. I feel that the potential of finding someone truly sincere, honest, loyal and loving is just not possible. I’m beginning to really accept being alone as my self-esteem soars higher and higher. I’ve clearly run out of patience with men and their BS and am feeling above and beyond all the angst of trying to have a wholesome relationship. I was reading tonight on another website that I post on regularly (about unhealthy relationships) and tonight have decided I don’t want to participate any longer. Then, coming here to BR, I’m not feeling much different. Somehow, I’m feeling a huge shift in my mentality and I know it is for the good. Like you all and Natalie, I’ve been through hell and back with men and now I’m just tired. I’ve run out of steam. The bad thing about all this is that if the “right” guy were to finally show up, I wouldn’t even recognize him as “right” for me. I’ve always been a person of great resiliance but this last relationship has really taken all the stuffing out of me. I’ve become the EUF. But, at least it won’t be hurting anyone else because I’m at the point of writing men off period. I’m finally accepting that I may continue to be alone, so my entire concentration is on being content in my own skin. I’ve seen it happen time and time again — when you stop looking and feel strong enough to go it alone and be happy, he’ll show up. If he does I just hope I’ll be able to appreciate him because I really don’t give damn anymore. Over and out.
Tinkerbell
I think most of us go through the cynical, defensive stage. And then the “I’m happy to be single for the rest of my life” stage. Then, as you say, we meet someone. I heard this very story from a woman who met “the one” in her 50s after divorce from a long abusive marriage, and after she’d completely committed herself to singledom.
There’s no rush, enjoy being AC-free and being single. It’s a good time. When you discover the wholeness and completeness in yourself, you’ll be ready for whatever life has in store for you, which may or may not include a man.
There are plenty of good men out there. All my life they have been right under my nose but I was only interested in the asshats.
@Grace: “There are plenty of good men out there. All my life they have been right under my nose but I was only interested in the asshats.” Sounds all too familiar to me.
The business contact I’m mentioning above – years ago, he tried to do me a favour (giving some useful information to me), but his boss, who was also present, didn’t approve. The boss gave a not-so-subtle hint to the guy to shut up, which he (reluctantly) did. I still remember that incident quite clearly. But what did I think about the guy back then? I considered him a loser, because in my book (back then) his boss made him look like a fool.
A loser, because he wanted to do me a favour his boss didn’t approve of? I think that says a lot about my (former) self.
I’m ashamed.
I think I can stop wondering why I managed to miss out on many good men. After all, I worked incredibly hard at misjudging and ignoring them!
I think this has something to do with the fact that as a child, for so many years I tried to find something good in my narcissistic mother. At some point, I simply gave up, because it was so obviously hopeless.
Instead, I told myself the goodness I was longing for simply didn’t exist in any human being. Whenever I encountered signs of it in other people, I felt the urge to explain them away (is that the right word?). It was like… goodness became unbearable to me. That which must not, can not be.
grace, so good your post!!!
Tinkerbell, you are not alone….I feel exactly the same….What I find difficult is to trust men. I just cannot trust them any more. I tried really hard for the past three months, go to dates and meet new people…but yet again, they brought only pain and disappointment! I cant deal with it any more, I rather be single and pain free, as I do not believe that one day I will be lucky enough to meet my Right man:-(
“what kind of prize could you possibly be winning by doing things, not because you want to, but to compete to get someone who really just isn’t that special?”
This is exactly right! In college in knew a few women (besides myself) who were hell bent on “winning” their men. Years later they are miserable. They good feeling they had at winning has given way to real life. Taking care of kids, paying bills, living! Because they were focused on “winning” they missed all of the red flags that would have let them know the guy they were competing for wasn’t even for them. On Oprah I once heard it said “when you have to win someone over, you’re really getting a boobie prize.” So what- if you get him to leave his girl? What are you signing up for next. You can never feel completely at peace in a relationship where you gave everything and the person you loved gave nothing. Good post Nat!
I just want to say how much I love the line, “He’s just not that special.” I need that tattooed on my wrist as a reminder.
thank you great post! I am sick of others trying to promote how to get a competitive edge and to know what men really want, what they appreciate, how they want their women to be …blablabla Where does that leave the women? just there to please the men? F…. That! I´d rather stay alone.
Am just watching the bucket list on tv. Think about it, would you REALLY want to spend the rest of your life with a bloke, who doesnt want you for who you are? If you know that if YOU would ever need his help and reliability He wouldnt be there for you!
This is simply not my goal in life anymore. Altogether i have probably run after impossible relationships for about 18 years now, havent done f… al for myself. Now sorry i wanna further my education, spend more quality time with people who are important to me……. If a bloke crosses this path who will fulfill what is impotant to me maybe.
Otherwise no time, but easier said than done, but its all about practice.
Thank you!
Natalie, I just want to tell you I love you! GOD, yet again you are spot on!!! Exactly my situation ! Thank you!!!
Hi, I just discover BR and I think it´ll be my life boat, I met a guy a year ago, we began to date, and I felt him pushing my boundaries, I distanced my self, no sex, made my boundaries clear and he rejected me, so painfull!!! Iwas in love, but I went NC (Ididn´t know it was called NC, I hadn´t read about relationships before now… ahahah)
I went NC because I had professional matters to solve, and he disturb me,
when I´ve settle my career I have broken, NC, a week ago, I called him, and he said me he has a committed relationship, and that now he doesn´t cheat, doesn´t do drugs, don´t night parties, that he is a responsible man, etc…
I want die of sorrow, I adored this man, I only left him because his no reliable way of life, I think i made a mistake and perhaps he was a good man or perhaps this girl is more valuable than me.
when i was with him, i felt no good enough, for example he made me felt old ( i´m 31 and he is 36!!!) no beauty(I know Im are more beauty than him, and this is no important for me)because of that I am happy that I didn´t make sex with him, I don´t regret this point, I think If I had made it, now I would feel worse 🙁 you know…
never a man made me felt insecure before, I think I need help from here, because many of my girlfriends say me that I have to fight for him, to win his love, I like this guy soooooooo much, but I´m so damaged, I can´t stand it,
please I need advice or a eye_opener, Idon´t know!!!
please I´m desperated!!!
(sorry my grammar, english is not my mother language)
ner, i think you neeed to get better girlfriends, because they sound desperate to tell you to chase him. As other people on this site will say, do not chase any man. why are you wanting to beg for his love?? dont beg anyone for their love. you have your boundaries which is fabulous. so he is changed, good on him, however he didnt respect your boundaries when you knew him so you made the right choice to leave. if he ‘pushed’ your boundaries, it means he just wanted to have sex with you and he was going to leave you after. he would’ve respected your boundaries, behaved himself as a gentleman and date you the right way if he truly wanted you.. he didnt. thats what men do, they will keep pushing until they get what they want and then ignore you and leave. if he really adored you after he ‘changed’ as you say, he would’ve pursued you, but he didnt. if anything why, do you want to crawl back to him. why SHOULD you crawl back to this guy. he should be the one crawling back to you!. he has not apologised or done that, so leave it be.
A lot of us women on this site including me are guilty of not having boundaries and letting men use us. You have boundaries, so dont let anyone tell you to change them. !
jasmine, I´m so gratefull for your post!!
my girlfriends are good people, but you know…
i left him alone because i wasn´t feeling right in the “relationship”, loved, cared, secured… and the big issue are drugs (not the “push” for sex)
but now i can´t help regreting it, i miss him, and i know i loved him, the other day he made me regret all, you know, saying that I was important for him but I didn´t trust and that it´s my fault because i left him alone…
ner
hate to kick you when you’re down but – the moral of this story is Don’t Call Em.
Also, you don’t know whether these changes will “stick”. It all sounds too good to be true. If I was him (which I’m not), the tactful, grown up thing to do would be to say “Hi Ner, things are good with me. Hope they are for you. No, I don’t think we should meet up, let’s just put the past behind us” not some advert on how great he is. Of course, you wouldn’t like that either because, face the truth, you wanted his approval. They’re allowed to move on and to become better people (assuming he has) and so are we.
NO FIGHTING FOR SOMEONE ELSE’S MAN. It’s immoral and degrading. Your girlfriends are wrong, wrong, wrong. You think you feel bad now,? That way lies a particular category of hell. You want to go there to avoid feeling the loss and disappointment. I’d choose the loss and disappointment if I were you. It passes. Affairs can go on indefinitely and the damage it does to you self esteem can stay with you for years.
And you wouldn’t like it if someone did it to you.
Don’t let one phone call derail your life.
hi grace, thanks for your post, it´s very helpfull.
first, i NEVER date a married man or a man with girlfriend, i never did it and I will never do it.
Now I think about it, because i know he has a girl since one month!!! ( if it´s really true, i don´t know…) or sth like that, although he says is a committed relationship and bla, bla ( wtf!!!)
i think you are right and it wasn´t a good idea call him, because he damaged me saying he has changed, no drugs, is a formal boyfriend, ALL THE THINGS I WANTED in the past!!! and he said it was my fault, he loved me but i left him alone… i can´t help regreting it, i don´t know how to manage the sense of loss and thinking perhaps i made a mistake…
he doesn´t seem a good guy, does he?? i think i need objetive opinions, it would be better if i forget about him??
i´m lost…
ner
Careful girlie (hope you don’t mind, it’s what I call my nieces). You said you don’t date men with girlfriends. He’s got a girlfriend. It doesn’t matter that you got there first or that it’s only been a month (or however long it is). A boundary is a boundary. When we start saying “but I love him, but I’m unhappy, but he started it” it’s a very fast and bumpy ride to the bottom of the slope.
He hasn’t been off the drugs long enough for you to be sure that’s permanent.
He sounds very immature with his bragging and all this “it’s your fault”.
He’s not that special.
I don’t think it’s ever a mistake to break up with someone who makes you unhappy, manipulates you and takes drugs. How can that not be a mistake? Your mistake was to call him.
Feeling bad isn’t a sign that you should be with someone.
hi grace!! I love “girlie” ahahahah!!
I don´t know how to express this in english, but you pointed a very important sign, never in my life I thought about a man with girl, it was the same for me, one month than one year, this guy makes me do bad things, I am ashamed I had better common sense when I was a teen than now!!!!
ner,
it sounds like he made himself sound great in order for you to feel bad about leaving him. and it is working! don’t let him make you question your judgment.
no guy who cares about you would try to punish you for dumping them by basically saying, “I am now what you wanted; too bad you didn’t have enough faith in me.” It’s not your job to stick around in the face of drug-using or boundary-pushing behaviour, waiting and hoping it will get better. That is not love, even if the world is full of messages that say it is. You saw what was on the table then, and you decided to do what was right for you. Calling him gave him the opportunity to ‘punish’ you for hurting him.
If your dumping him made him see that his behaviours needed to change, then great. Clearly his behaviour hasn’t become so kind that he refrained from trying to get you to feel bad. From the things you report that he said, I don’t buy that he is suddenly the model guy he says he is, anyway.
But Grace is right. People say lots of mean things when they’re angry and hurt or their pride was wounded; and it’s best not to get back in touch with someone that you had to go AC with. Try not to give too much weight to his immature reaction and focus on continuing with your NC and building your life.
“I am now what you wanted; too bad you didn’t have enough faith in me.” It’s not your job to stick around in the face of drug-using or boundary-pushing behaviour, waiting and hoping it will get better. That is not love, even if the world is full of messages that say it is. You saw what was on the table then, and you decided to do what was right for you.
AMEN
I think i will print your post and stick it in my forehead!!!
perhaps this thing go with how i am, i ever fight for all things, jobs… you know…
I knew this guy was not mature enough… using drugs at 35!! This was the big issue for me, and last time I talked with him, four months ago, he was in drugs, parties.. now has he changed, in four months is a new man!!! and the rest of people in the world struggling with left the drugs, amazing…
I have been reading more in this website, and I match all the signals!!!
it´s the first time in my life I lost my time with a jerkguy like this!!!
He eroded my self-steem indeed!!! in a few dates, it´s incredible…
Your post and other women´s here helped me a lot, to stick to my past gut, but now i think must be sth wrong in me, why am i losing my time with this jerk!!?? if when i was a teen i spot this kind of guy at first sight, i am ashamed, it´s weakening that i am thinking “if i would have more patience perhaps…” I can´t help doing it and It´s so enervating…
hummmm…!!!
Hi ladies,
I’m so grateful to have found this site. I’m ashamed so please don’t judge. I am married, but not happily. I love my husband as he is a “good” guy but shows me NO affection or love physically. The sex is cold and detached (worst lover I have had but thought I could live with it) yet he does so many other wonderful things for me and my two kids. About 13 months ago I met this charming man (10 years my junior) who is very well respected and liked at work. He chased me and I finally gave in, and the barely there affair has been going on for about 10 month. I never gave in to intercourse with him but we have done other things. He is so loving, passionate, fun and affectionate in bed that I crave him constantly. I know he doesn’t want a relationship- he tells me all the time. I agree just to feel and have the affection I lack at home. I’m so torn- he’s been upfront with me and I should run – I know I should. I tried NC but failed after 3 weeks. He is an EUM b/c he never seems to have girlfriends and outside of the bedroom, I hardly hear from him. I am ashamed- so please don’t judge. I came here for support as I write this in tears. I know I should probably leave my husband but the kids would be so devastated. There are so many EUM out there- it scares me to enter that “world”.
ashamed, its not about judging you. i hold marriage very sacred. i also feel that before any sort of affair started, you needed to address the issues you have with your husband which you didnt do.
you have children and your children are your first responsibility. they dont deserve to be put through this. i also dont understand why you married your husband if you perhaps didnt feel anything for him. if it was due to family pressure for example, thats still not a good reason to put someone through this and bring children into the world with you feeling that way.. im giving you tough love, but you need to wake up . what values are important. your husband as you say is a good man and provides you with a lot. all marriages arent perfect. you need to work on your problems rather than resorting to meaningless affairs.
i feel telling your husband of this affair would have devastating consequences…if it was me, i would keep it secret if you have any hopes of repairing the marriage.
it is fixabe, i advise you seek counselling and also let your husband know of your feelings in the bedroom. you need to bring passion and romance into your marriage. if this doesnt work, then sadly you should get a divorce.
also;
just because a man doesnt have a girlfriend doesnt mean he’s EUM. there could be all sorts of reasons , he hasnt found the right girl for example. i have this feeling that you are calling him EUM because he doesnt give you attention. wake up honey you are married and he shouldnt be giving you attention!
Jasmine,
I was remiss in leaving out that I have tried to discuss my concern over our lack of affection and physical touch for YEARS. I can’t change him, I have tried. I did love my husband when we got married. It just wasn’t the passionate, I must have you kind of love and I made myself believe that marrying your best friend was better than that type of love. 15 years later I’m missing the passion I used to have with my college love and the cravings that I feel with my
new AC. My AC and I are also friends and he confides in me about others too – in my opinion, he is EUM and not just with me but I do understand why you would say that and I get your point. I know it’s time to end it.
Ashamed,
Your situation is similar to mine, in fact almost identical, except that I have been NC with the AC (who was married to someone else, which I suppose makes it worse, if that’s possible) for 3 months.
Stop bothering with the shame, etc, it’s useless, and start thinking properly about your future. It doesn’t lie with this guy anyway. Don’t assume he isn’t seeing others; 10 to 1 he is, and a big part of your attraction will be that you’re in a box, aren’t liable to turn up unexpectedly, make demands, etc. EUs DO often have whole harems of women. The longer you stay with him the more he will hurt you. You can do without the sex, (that was also a big thing for me having not had sex with my husband for over a year). Sure I miss that but it wasn’t worth the misery.
Finish with the AC. Cut all contact with him. You know it’s going to happen anyway, why hang around for more humiliation?
Don’t make any sudden decisions about your marriage until you are properly over the AC. The answer to that problem will come to you in time but while you’re still getting the s*** kicked out of your self esteem by the AC you are in no position to make rational decisions.
I am coming to the decision that I do want to end my marriage, and I would be content on my own, so the prescence or absence of EUs, ACs etc is of no relevance.
Ashamed,
Perhaps my reply sounded a little cold – believe me I do sympathise as I have been going through all this myself and I cry most days. The trouble is that by turning to someone else as an escape from the marriage issues, we not only are not escaping, we are making them worse and adding a whole lot of new pain and complications into the mix.
The damage is severe.
I also married someone of whom I was fond but not physically compatible. I thought it didn’t matter, after all I had had many relationships with good “chemistry” and they had failed, so I decided that it wasn’t important. I now feel that was wrong. I think my choice of husband was due to abandonment issues, here was someone who would never leave me. I also underestimated other incompatibilities, cultural, educational etc.
Is this how it was for you?
This guy you are having an affair with, I call him an AC bc he is preying on your vulnerability and loneliness. The fact that he is open about it doesn’t redeem him. And he knows, as mine did, that there is nothing you can say, so in his mind, his conscience is clean.
I really hope you can manage to get rid of him soon.
I am hoping to start joint counselling with my Husb soon, more with a view to giving this marriage a decent thought out ending. He is already talking about how much he wants to get out of me financially. He is living in la la land as I have nothing, having supported him and paid everything for our entire marriage.
Mymble,
Thank you for your support. Our situations do sound similar. My AC is such a charmer, flirt – I know he has many girls both as friends and would be lovers. Funny thing is – I’m more attracted to his personality and fun loving nature than his looks but knowing him has made me more attracted to him physically. My husband is actually better looking. The issue is that my husband came from a family of all boys (5), 3 are already divorced and their spouses complained about the same thing. They just aren’t warm, fun loving people but they have other good qualities. I think that because they grew up poor, the household was not a happy one. Instead the focus was on money instead of love and this has impacted them in their adult lives and relationships. They love status and material items but don’t know how to “love” a
woman properly. My husband told me that I watch too many movies – that people don’t really make love like that. Well – I have made love like that and I miss it. I’m trying to tell myself
that I can live without it but I don’t know how much longer I can. I have tried counseling. I feel so torn and don’t want to wake up another 10 years later thinking I wasted some of the
love I have and want to give someone who will know what to do with it. Let me know how you cope.
Ashamed
I know a woman who finally left her husband after about 20 years of a cold marriage with no affection and bad sex. She’s remarried and one of her children still hasn’t forgiven her. But I think she made the right choice.
My parents have a loveless marriage. That was quite as devastating to me as divorce I think.
There’s more to a marriage is more than not getting divorced.
As for your fear of entering the EUM world? You’re already in it.
Both these men are EU.
Grace- you are right. Both of these men are EUM. I never really thought that about my husband because I mistakenly thought his loyalty to me was being emotionally available but it’s different. I realized he was EU when my dad died and after the first day or two, I would cry alone as he walked by me without any consolation(not even a hug).
Hi Ashamed,
I could never judge you. As a former OW, I engaged in cheating on his wife, lying, and deceiving my friends and family. Thus, I live in a glass house and I’m accountable for my past. I want to offer some gentle support.
I would like to suggest that you commit to going NC with the barely there affair guy and focusing on you. Even though I slid off the NC wagon several times, I finally made it. What really helped me is reading this blog, Natalie’s books, and learning to focus on me instead of him. Of course, he was EUM. That was a no brainer. But one of the amazing things I discovered about myself, I was EUW and as unavailable as he was which is why I signed up to be a mistress in the first place. I don’t know if this applies to you. Clearly the barely there affair guy is EUM. What would you win by continuing?
I also understand cold, detached sex, the worst I ever experienced. 3rd ex was the worst ever, ever, ever. I might as well not even been there and most of the time I wasn’t! He was a “good guy” too, kinda. For me, the lack of intimacy in the bedroom was symbolic of a lack of intimacy in all the other rooms too which is why he’s an ex.
I wouldn’t stress right now about dating and/or entering “that world” filled with EUM’s. It sounds as though your plate may be pretty full as it is with kids and a husband. I know it’s difficult but take some time to focus on you. It took me some time to turn the focus on me and then it took even longer to recognize why I participated in an affair and then to move from shame/blame to accountability. It’s been a rewarding journey, albeit frustrating at times. I’m still struggling and have down days. Overall though, it’s was worth it because I am worth it. You are too.
I’ve got my fingers crossed for you and your kids.
BTW, entering the dating world is a lot less scary since I’m addressing my own unavailability issues. Hugs to you.
Runnergirlno1,
Sounds like you are doing great and I will get there too, especially with the support from all of you. I know I sound weak and I can be at times but for the most I’m a pretty strong person. I have a great job and can support me and my kids alone if it ever cane to that. As far as AC, I already started NC again and will hold strong this time. I need to stop participating in his game and focus on me. He plays the friend card – the I want to be there for you card and then I get roped
in. I know this sounds lame but he is an incredible kisser, something my husband is not. It all comes down to to how he seduces me, and makes me feel like he is totally in love with me just by the way he holds me, kisses me and well… you get the picture. Wish he wasn’t so
good at that and my husband so bad at it. Two different extremes – makes for one confused life…
I have to add to this… it helps me see how much i have changed! Ok, my loswest point in my love life (was it love or lust…still deciding) was when a lover of mine, Narcisistic Juvenile and emotionally abusive, rich banker man, (i can say this now because I am away from the drama and have had months of no contact and I never intend to return to contact!) anyay, mr duplicity called me once in his most charming manner to do him a “favor”… he said only i could do it because he trusted me so much. So dum dum girl me goes over to his pish posh apartment. He hands me a set of clippers to clip his hairy back!!!!! he said he was doing a photoshoot (he said oh yea I model sometimes (crazy delusional man..) and I tossed a fit. I said how dare you but then he pulled the Well if you wont’ do it, I will get someone else to do it..So being weak at that time 2.5 years ago. I did it. MADE ME ILL. no kidding came down sick two days later. I was so disgusted with him and myself. I can laugh at it now but it taught me to NEVER bow down for another assclown again. No way…