When your basis for accepting you is tied to whether others accept you first, it not only removes all of your power, but also your self-esteem and personal security because you’re tied to moving and changing external forces, some of which may be dodgy and unqualified to be determining your value.
When you throw in the fact that how you see things isn’t necessarily how someone else will see things, it also means that your idea of being accepted and their idea of accepting you may be two different things. This means that sometimes when you think that someone has made some big decision about your worth, they actually haven’t thought about it in the way that you think; they’re self-involved and doing what feels good for them regardless of how it may impact you or others.
If you accepted you, you could get on with dating and relationships instead of using them as vehicles to gain validation of the things that you don’t accept about you.
How can for instance, someone that you don’t know, reject you? They don’t know you – it’s an image of you, a fragment even. To think they ‘knew’ something critical about you, is to treat them as if they can smell Eau de I’m Not Good Enough that warns them to reject you before they even get to know you.
Of course many who have experienced this will argue to themselves that what little that they got to know was enough to put them off – they didn’t know you in entirety to reject you, the fundamental you as a person. They knew you on a surface level because it takes time and effort to get to know someone.
Often what’s actually being rejected isn’t the person per se – it’s what they come with and in turn what expectations may be created.
– They may for instance, be turning down the idea of being in something more than casual.
– They may be turning down behaving themselves and acting with at the very least, care, trust and respect.
– They may be turning down the opportunity to disappoint you even further in the long-run because they know what their limitations are.
– They may be turning down the possibility of starting something new because they know that they’re not ready, even if for a while they thought they were.
– They may be turning down meeting your needs because they can barely meet their own.
– They may be turning you down because their feelings are still tied up in someone else although they’d really like not to be – many of you can relate to this and it doesn’t make you The Big Bad Wolf. Sometimes you don’t know where you’re at emotionally until you start thinking about or trying to let a new person in. It’s better that they turned you down – many of you have experienced what it’s like to be with someone who hangs in there anyway in spite of being emotionally tied to their ex. One word: soul-destroying.
Even though there are many reasons why someone may not ‘opt in’ to the possibility of something with you, it can be easy to perceive not being called, or dates not progressing, or a relationship ending, as a sign that there is something ‘obviously’ rejectionable about you, and that depending on which stage it happened, they were able to figure this out without getting to know you and putting in the time and effort.
It’s easy to go “Oh they’re not putting in the time and effort, hence ipso facto there’s something wrong with me” instead of saying “Er, they’re not putting in the frickin time and effort – this is incredibly disrespectful. A mature adult would jog on instead of trying to get as much as they can on a crumb effort. FLUSH!”
Of course, if they did spend some time and effort, you can convince yourself that you are so rejectionable, that they couldn’t appreciate you and the love you have on offer – you can see how you can talk yourself into it all being about you no matter what happens. This is even further exacerbated when you are with someone who truth be told, you either don’t truly like, never mind love them, or you chose them because you knew they had major issues or were even very shady, but you thought that you had a likelier chance of being accepted – then you think “I can’t believe that even they don’t want me – what’s wrong with me?”
If they don’t call, you think that you were rejected before you even made it to a date. Was it a word you wrote in your email? Was it your tone in the phone call? Was it the speed that you replied to a text? Did someone tell them something about you? Did they watch you when you weren’t looking and realise that you weren’t good enough when you were holding your drink at a 14 degree angle? Did someone ‘better’ than you come along?
If you don’t get past the first date, you think that they sussed you in an evening and you behaved heinously wrong or have got Eau de I’m Not Good Enough seeping out of your pores. You work your way back through the conversation, or imagine the kiss and wonder was it how you kissed or tasted? Were you too eager? Were you not eager enough? Was it because you agreed to another date? Or maybe it was your job or an accomplishment? Maybe it was agreeing to go back to their place? Maybe it was the Spanx or the big granny knickers? Maybe you weren’t assertive enough? Maybe you were too quiet? Too loud? Ordered a steak when you should have ordered a salad?
You’re not wearing Eau de I’m Not Good Enough. These thoughts, this perspective is in your head, hence you don’t have to continue to think and see this way because it’s like seeing everything in monetary units of your self-esteem when these things are happening independently of your worth anyway. It’s like going around taking unrelated events with their own controlling forces and going ‘Ha! It’s my low self-worth that caused this!”
This is all bullshit. It also inadvertently makes the other party look like a complete and utter numpty if this is truly the reasoning that serves as their basis for ‘ruling you out’, which means you’re actually only giving yourself reasons why they need to be taking a run and jump anyway.
Your thoughts?
Discover more about why you’re not wearing a sign on your forehead or giving off a not good enough scent in book and ebook Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl, plus if you’d like to work on your self-esteem this summer, sign up for my Build Your Self-Esteem eCourse.
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This post made real sense to me and made me feel good… the fact that its not YOU they reject, but the situation that they cannot deliver on. My MM/AC had gone about as far as he could go with his ‘reasons’ for us not being together. He said with tears in his eyes at the end that “Leaving you will probably be the biggest mistake of my life” it seemed like drama filled BS at the time, something to appease the pain of him walking out on me after six years. What you have written really confirms that it wasn’t me he didn’t want, he just didn’t have the balls to come good on the situation he had future faked. A very ‘feel good’ post. After reading lots of advice on BR I know my MM/AC was a coward, its been hard letting go not only of the relationship but of the person I thought he was and realising that he was just too weak/cowardly to treat with me with love, care and respect because it was easier for him to just a)stay in his ‘uncomfortable comfort zone’ and b) walk away and not come through on the promises he had made – no matter how much it hurt the both of us. I’m glad he did it – I don’t want a coward for a partner.
This is brilliant – I did this all the time but no more. I am afraid to go back to dating because I am afraid of all the soul searching and self doubt that I get into if I get rejected. Well no more. This is about me finding a best friend is male so I can sex with him as well as other best friend benefits – is honesty, trust, commitment, being there, support etc. Sometimes I think that some men don’t commit or treat us well because means that they have to treat women as equals – and they aren’t wanting to do that.
Just this week I enrolled in an on-line dating site – to get myself back out there and to also help me with my FLUSH handle with Mr. Unavailable.
I’ve received a couple emails and sent out a few myself, but nothing to the next communication level, as of yet.
This post comes in handy, as we all need to remember, “what other people think of me, is none of my business”. It’s what WE think of ourselves that matters.
Baby steps, but I’m getting there.
@thatgalkiki
Brilliant!
Bless you Natalie, for your blog is a life-saver.
Firstly, let me say well done with Mr Unavailable and the FBG & the No Contact Rule ebooks Nat. I got both last night and in a state of resigned desperation to pick myself up after having broken NC by sending xAC a short email, (the content of which was fine & did not invite a response, although that’s NOT the point), read them cover to cover. Thus, here I am back on day one of NC, to commiserate with my B.R ladies, that ahh yes, she who supposedly ‘hates’ her xAC, in fact (unbelievably) does not…however, I digress.
The title of this post made me laugh out loud & that’s just what I needed today! It’s very tempting to beat myself up over sending that email, but instead, I shall get back on the NC horse, and get on with my day with a chuckle! Thanks again!
Great attitude Sometimes it takes a few tries! It is one of the hardest things I have ever done esp since it was a 10 year relationship. The best is when you are feeling really good about it, starting to get them out of your head and they contact you. Thats the tough one. You want to answer sometimes out of curiosity. Like….whats he going to come up with now? If timing is good I do it and set myself back once again. That is where I have trouble. Then if I talk to him it is never a good thing. Back into my head, mind f”kery…..anyone else having this problem where curiosity killed the cat?
Stay strong! I know EXACTLY how you feel. Five steps forward and then three steps back after meaningless contact which messes with your head! Have been doing NC for three months from an 8 year relationship and it is sooooo hard. Have broken it a couple of times and met up for coffee but it leaves you more confused than ever and then the stupid cycle starts again. I decided to cut the marionette strings this time for good. He cannot control me anymore and make me dance to his crazy making behaviour. He went two months without speaking to me, which was not unusual as it happened many times before, then he pressed the reset button, but this time I got there first and pressed DELETE!
I was wearing Eau de Fantasy and Eau De Assclown – that scent that attacts EUMs and AC’s from miles around!
Time for a bath!
& now I’m wearing Eau Du Pissing Myself … (aussie slang for laughing)
Go TOA!
lol
I seem to be wearing a NO INTIMACY COLOGNE / PARFUM because I attract so many completely frigid Mr Unavailables. The No Sex Mr Unavailable, the No Kissing Mr Unavailable, the I-Cannot-Be-Seen-In-Public-With-You Mr Unavailable… it drove me crazy!
Help me understand why I attract these ice-block men!
Awesome article! I just found your site a week ago. Everything I read of yours is just good for my soul. Coming out of a ten month relationship. He’s in every article. I think you know how much you help us, yet you’ll never truly know the difference it makes. Your words made me remember my sixteen year old self who told it like it was. She’s back!
“This is even further exacerbated when you are with someone who truth be told, you either don’t truly like, never mind love them, or you chose them because you knew they had major issues or were even very shady, but you thought that you had a likelier chance of being accepted – then you think “I can’t believe that even they don’t want me – what’s wrong with me?”
Have you peeked into my psyche, Natalie?
Yes, he’s crazy and exciting and different than anyone I’ve ever known. BUT (I’m drilling this into my brain) his major issues and red flags make him an impossible candidate for a healthy relationship. Unless he wants to put in the difficult, painful work necessary to enact change (ahem, I should know) and there’s zero evidence of that.
In fact, the fear and lack of self-esteem that often comes hand-in-hand w/ amber and red behavior make men like this even more rejective! They don’t even accept themselves let alone someone else trying to get close to them.
I’m a good enough woman who must start accepting and believing that his hurtful behavior doesn’t reflect my lovability.
You’ve helped me break through the fog so many times, Natalie.
Thank you, thank you.
Hear, hear!!
I love the way you talk about the obsessive thoughts that can go on when we overanalyze the situation. I’ve done that. Rethink how we could have done things differently. But the truth is the right person will want you no matter what you do. You can’t say the wrong thing to the right person is how I’ve heard it put.
“you can’t say the wrong thing to the right person”…I like that!
Love that song Somebody I use to know In that song the girl says…i don’t want to live that way..reading into every word you say… So true Goteya sings you didn’t have to cut me off..Hell yea I did have to cut you off and playing the friend card is your way of keeping me as your fallback girl!
I know I’m not afraid of going on a few dates and getting rejected. I’ve gone on so many dates that have made it to a second date, and so many that haven’t, I’ve lost count. Most of the time, if they don’t call, it’s “Oh well,” and I carry on.
I wonder sometimes if I don’t still avoid dating, or trying to date, men I truly find attractive. But I’m not constantly seeing men where I think – ooh, what about him? and then not doing anything about it … okay, not true, there was a cute guy reading non-fiction about whaling ships at the coffee shop a few weeks ago and I did nothing. Let him walk. But generally I feel that I rarely see anyone I find attractive.
But then, I don’t want to go after a guy who makes me nervous. The idea of dating square jawed, golf-shirt wearing jock types makes me shrink down in my chair, because I’m not the type these guys usually go for and vice versa. I think they often look very attractive, but we don’t have anything in common. Anyway, no one is saying I have to date such a man.
I just think it must be some kind of fear of rejection for me to have been wanting a family and yet being single, and only choosing ACs, for so many years. It will soon be two years since I dumped the AC, and haven’t had anything even remotely longish term since.
If I read this article correctly, even in the face of such data, I need to take the position that this long drought isn’t about me. I just find it perplexing to reconcile feeling fine about experiencing rejection in the dating arena, and yet dating so little and experiencing so little companionship in life. I still wonder if I’m out of touch with a deeper fear, and just living in a comfortable uncomfortable.
Or maybe I’m just impatient: this whole self-esteem thing hasn’t paid off in a great partner yet! I’ve been home visiting my family: yep, living day-to-day with loved ones totally beats living alone. Universe, haven’t I been good and “happily single” long enough?
Magnolia
Your last para. absolutely chimes with me! I thought after five/six years of being single and over two years of being happily single that the excrush MUST BE IT. Surely it’s about time! And attractive to boot. But he is his own person, he’s allowed to have his own plans, agenda and timetable too. It doesn’t make me “not good enough” that he isn’t interested in being more than friends.
Thankfully, he’s off the pedestal. He’s not perfect and he is not better than me. What he does or doesn’t do has no bearing on what I think of me.
I never thought that men and women could be friends so I’m keeping an eye on it, but right now I’m enjoying the friendship. When my mind wanders down the I’m Not Good Enough blind alley I stop myself. We have control over that, which is a surprise to me.
Happy (not pretend happy/in denial) is always a good place to be. Let’s not second guess it.
At least you are getting dates. Don’t fear the men you find attractive. We put them UP THERE but he’s just human too!
<>
This is my EXACT issue in the part of the US where I live. When I was doing on-line, it seemed like the vast majority of the men in my area were this type. Some were nice looking, seemed pleasant, but 1)they NEVER emailed ME first 2) If I emailed first, they didn’t respond and 3) If they did, they were usually so God-awful boring I knew it would make me nuts.
It took a while to come to terms that this ‘type’ is not MY ‘type’. The culture of my region says that this is the type of guy I SHOULD want, but truth be told, they don’t want me…quirky, off-beat, non-conforming. I’m not a Barbie doll, never was, don’t want to be. I’m not the trophy wife type.
So while there was a time I felt ‘rejected’ by this type, I felt too fat, too nutty, too unfashionable, I’ve now come to realize I don’t want them, either.
Magnolia, I can totally relate to every word you wrote! I’ve been on so many dates over the last 11 years of being single and they seem to fall into 2 categories, guys I just don’t fancy physically who are VERY keen on me, or more rarely, I meet somebody I fancy who I don’t hear from again. (most looking back were emotionally unavailable in some way or another, although I did not see this at the time!).
I’ve done online dating on and mostly off for quite a few years and even when I’ve taken a year break I go back on to see so many of the same men still there.
At the moment, I just cannot bear to put myself online as it is so soul destroying. I either get emails from people who are not at all what I am looking for and I’m too scared to email guys I think are nice, for fear of rejection, which makes it pointless being on there.
I realise I play it safe and am also living my life in my usual comfort zone of being single and justifying it to myself that I am happy. I’m also torn between this notion of not looking and he will arrive while I’m in Sainsburys and if I don’t make an effort to get out there and put myself online, this person isn’t going to come knocking on my door! (so many decisions and I’m frequently changing my mind on these issues).
After a lot of in depth work on me, I am finally happy with my own company and do truly believe I have a lot to offer in a relationship and I now understand why I have been attracted to emotionally unavailable men.
I now love myself so much more, which has been a struggle in the past. That is really helpful and I’m now an expert at spotting EUM and disregarding them before ending up hurt.
However, this self doubt still creaps in from time to time, and leaves me wondering if there is really something about me that is unappealing and puts people off, even though I do know I have a lot to offer. I’m not perfect, but nobody is, which is what I need to remember.
I shall continue thinking positively and will keep reminding me I am good enough and if somebody rejects me, perhaps this is their issue rather than mine. Thank you for the article. x
Hi Eva,
I’ve not done online dating but I have always had that issue with men that they are either really keen and I’m not attracted or I am extremely attracted and I have to chase them down like a reverse Benny Hill. But I have only recently worked out that this is the classic emotionally unavailable response and that essentially it is the keenness that makes them unattractive to me and the elusiveness that makes them attractive. Either way you don’t have to get close and vulnerable.
I am trying to work through this and it is pretty hard to come to terms with. Natalie talks about becoming available and letting in people you would have previously dismissed but it is hard to get over that icky feeling when someone seems to actually really like you not dismiss it as just not fancying them. I wish I knew the answer to this one or even knew how to work out the answer!
The thing is, when you start talking to yourself in your own mind like you are really keen on YOU, the men who like you don’t seem so icky because now their words and actions match up with the things you like and value about yourself. So it doesn’t seem so foreign because you are used to being so awesome to yourself 🙂
A friend of mine who has a frickin’ FABULOUS relationship told me..”do nice things for yourself, thank yourself for everything, even if you are just opening the door for yourself, then when the right guy comes along you’ll be USED to being treated well and it won’t seem so weird.”
Oh.
!
Thanks Sunshine, that makes real sense 🙂
Sunshine, love it! It rings so true.
Also, don’t be your own EU/AC. If you buy yourself flowers, try to match it to consistent actions and self-talk or it might seem like a token gesture. I’ve given myself token gestures in my time and they made me feel worse!
I also find myself having the same problem too.
Magnolia, a find and you popped into my mind:
“If a goal or dream is slow in coming, envision it on a delivery truck, just a wee bit stuck in traffic, but coming towards you!”
I think my earlier comment disappeared as I submitted..
I just have to jump into this conversation because I relate to all the comments. Eva, I also find online dating soul destroying. Recently, I heard a ‘decent’, emotionally available guy advising someone to keep dating as many as possible in order to cushion disappointment. I admit, a lot of the turn-off is the thought that I’ll be the cushion until someone better comes along. But also, while we have to keep our heads screwed on, shouldn’t just a bit of soul go into it if this is someone to share our lives, and not just a mortgage and party invitations, with? We don’t even choose pets in such a cold way. Let me make it clear that this is just my feelings and hang-ups, and it’s specific to my age group and where I live.
My other hang-up is being the rejector. I fear being physically or emotionally cornered, like I’ve met keen guys who seem to have written all over them ‘I want to keep you in a neat little box and reduce you into something I can understand’. Why does this upset me so much? Why don’t I take it as a compliment? If I were an AC, I’d have a field day and play them to the max.
I wonder if this is ego/inverted ego issues. As in, my inverted ego issues make me fear rejection, while I also have that mysterious ego of the FBG that says I’m special and different, how dare anyone not get me, not have the magic words. Another factor, I think, is that since I let men who do pass the perimeter fence, trample all over my inner boundaries, I know the implications of letting someone through. Maybe that’s why I up the security when it’s not someone I feel ‘chemistry’ with. It’s my inner sanctuary that I really need to work on so I can confidently say ‘yeah fine, come and have a look around, let’s see if it works’. Fix those broken windows. Especially because ACs seem to have been the ones to know how to say ‘open sesame’. Talk about baggage! 😀
‘My other hang-up is being the rejector. I fear being physically or emotionally cornered, like I’ve met keen guys who seem to have written all over them ‘I want to keep you in a neat little box and reduce you into something I can understand’.’
I have this issue too. I struggle enormously with a great terror of being overwhelmed, invaded and controlled. After years of different counselors, and a high level of self awareness, I am starting to think that some brain patterns, if set early and deeply enough in life, cannot be changed. All I can do is stay present as much as possible, and try to modify the extent to which it controls my perception and actions. But I think I have a bit of an idea of where you’re coming from.
It was VERY soothing, and timely to read: ‘it’s like seeing everything in monetary units of your self-esteem when these things are happening independently of your worth anyway. It’s like going around taking unrelated events with their own controlling forces and going ‘Ha! It’s my low self-worth that caused this!”’……..life has had me on the ropes for quite some time now, and every thing I’ve done so far to change it has come to nowt. Hard on the self esteem, and lately I have been had the awful sneaking thoughts that I must be so bad, so damaged that every thing that is going wrong in my life is because I’m awful. Even on stuff like someone renting a house I fell for….six weeks before I can even move. Hel-lo?
My soul was in agony thinking like this, as it didn’t feel right, but my eyes/mind keep showing me that I keep failing. It becomes a vicious vulture circling the brain looking for rotten bits to pick at.
Still Standing
I hear you. I think brain patterns can be changed. But it’s very strong and difficult to manage. There’s a guy I cross paths with sometimes, and we just talk and talk about so many things, and my emotional unavailability has made me keep him at arm’s length. I spoke to him yesterday, saw he’s on a similar journey to me- NC, choosing himself, the lot (I didn’t give away any of these things about me!). I am *present* in my thought patterns, and they are out of my comfort zone. I might like him. It isn’t huge chemistry. Lots of green flags. There creeps in the fear of being cornered. If I don’t have the kind of chemistry I feel with EUMs (and only EUMs), isn’t there an element of forcing myself? How do I know what I want, when my instincts are my enemy? I try to pick faults. He isn’t as successful as I like him to be. I fear disappointment. He hasn’t even asked me out!! But it seems so possible. Aaargh!
Still Standing, I’m sorry to hear about your setbacks. I think you can tinker with the small parts of your life you can control and do what you can for the bigger things. My life has been unbelievably messed up for the past year or so. Nothing went as planned, I’ve worked so hard, and I felt like I have NOTHING while others have it all. Many, many setbacks, to the point where I avoid people because I’m fed up of being Miss Bad News and the only other option is Miss Inauthentic. It’s so unfair! I’m not over it, I wake up sometimes in the night thinking WTF?!
But I made one bold move, dropping something that was wasting my energy, and since then, have made other bold moves and found other things I can change, whether it’s eating, exercise, the first thing I do when I get in, etc, and it gives me the strength, optimism and determination to just about cope. Then you can stop saying ‘my low self worth caused this’ because it’s not as low.
happyb
Wow, your words really resonated with me. We seem to be running parallel lives, lol! I too have started to avoid people cos I’m sick of talking about how messed up it all is, and has been for so long. I’ve become Ms Inauthentic, just to give others a break, and also myself, as repeating all the bad stuff is just cementing it in my brain.
Like you, I am working on the little things that I let slide – resuming exercise, reducing junk food and alcohol etc. Fail plenty, but keep trying, and keep praising myself every time I try. What else can you do?
‘If I don’t have the kind of chemistry I feel with EUMs (and only EUMs), isn’t there an element of forcing myself? How do I know what I want, when my instincts are my enemy? ‘…………happyb, I have had these same thoughts for years and years. I know NML has written an article on the first question, but can’t remember which one it was, sorry.
The second question is one I think I will always struggle with. I’m EU, how do I overcome that without feeling like I’m going to die (literally)? I’m EU cos inside of me I’m all too available to those overwhelming emotions, and I have no control. I’m EU cos medical problems mean I have to allow painful and degrading things to continually happen to me, and I have no control. I can’t feel safe inside of myself when I cant protect myself from harm. So EU men seem ‘safe’….except they aren’t. Not at all.
I hope, happyb, that life starts to improve for you. Your words have provided me with enormous comfort, so I think you deserve something good from life as a reward.
Thank you.
Still Standing, thank you, what kind words.
There are certain harms we can’t protect ourselves from but that is because we are just little humans in an ancient and complex universe, not because we fail. But there is a lot we can do for ourselves.
“I’m EU cos inside of me I’m all too available to those overwhelming emotions, and I have no control.”
Me neither right now, and it really stings. I can only think that it’s best to keep the drawbridge up until this is dealt with, but no reason to give up hope, especially with NML’s wise words. Don’t take any of it personally, you are looking after yourself and you don’t get anything valuable without striving.
happyb
You have depth and wisdom that is rare to find. Thank you so much. x
Arlena, I love, love, love that quote. I’m stealing it!
mags-
i also totally agree with the haven’t i paid my dues? feeling. haven’t i worked hard enough? have i not achieved “happily single” well enough yet?
ugh. i think i’m taking a dating break. tired of it. and if this is how i feel, i probably shouldn’t be dating anyway.
hugs
Ok so timely! Met a guy on line. Went on great date. 2days later he texts that it is to far to drive (bout 50 miles). Think it’s strange and go through a hundred reasons why I wasn’t right for him. Fast forward 8 months and I get an email that he has been thinking about me and has been working in my area. I think, why not. Another date last weekend that goes great. Now it has been nothing except a text or two and how busy he has been and is all booked up this weekend. ITs Not Me!!! He is a hit and run dater. Thank you NML!
A great article Nat!
This is exactly how im feeling today. Im about 16 days NC now. I was doing really well at first, and now im starting to feel things and face things that I suppose I have been avoiding. Im really fighting with the fact that hes already with someone new. And what makes him be able to give her the effort that I wanted from him for three years.
The last two days, Ive made it all about how, she must be better than me.
The more I read this article today, the more its helping to sink in. I will just keep reading it and hope it sticks, but right now, Im finding this poing of NC really tough. Im determined to stick to NC, thats no longer an option for me. Ive stuck my hand back in the fire 3 times now, and each time it burned me. badly. I dont want to feel that again. I suppose I just wish that I knew what “qualifies” the new woman, to point where he told me before NC, that he “really wanted things to work out with her, because she different and understands that him and I have a strong emotional bond, and she fine with us being close.” HUH?
anyways, just navigating this whole NC day by day.
bring on the next day!
HSN
Has it ever occurred to you that he is a liar? I’d bet that this o-so-understanding gf *doesn’t even know that you exist.* Anything he says about her to you is designed to manipulate you. See, you’re supposed to be “fine with them being close.” You don’t know anything about what effort he’s putting in, but again I’ll bet it is NOTHING compared to the energy she’s burning wondering what the hell is going on.
I have followed your story and this guy is a user. Use use use. He is using the new woman, too, but nothing he says will cop to that.
When he came back after you had made huge efforts to get free, and only AFTER he gave you all sorts of signals he wanted you back did he then admit *only on being directly asked* that he actually was in a new relationship — just that, HSN, is effing EVIL.
This man does not care about you, protect your feelings, behave with integrity, respect your boundaries, show any of the character you would want, AT MINIMUM in a partner. And he’s not being any better with her; the emails you’ve received are completely disrespectful to BOTH of you.
Further, these types of men… it is quite possible there is one or more additional women he is simultaneously managing with crumbs of hope and tall tales. NO LONGER YOUR PROBLEM.
HSN,
The fact that he’s moved on to somebody else so quickly speaks volumes. And I very much doubt he has magically changed overnight and is suddenly capable of giving this woman a healthy relationship if he was unable to with you.
There’s absolutely no way you should be telling yourself that she’s better than you – if anything, you’re better than her because what ‘qualifies’ her is the fact that she probably hasn’t discovered his issues yet and therefore she hasn’t seen through him, whereas you have…and you’re free of him now! : )
Why would you want to be close to him? RUN as fast as you can in the opposite direction and leave him to his unavailable ways because he isn’t ever going to change and nothing you can say or do is going to change that so please don’t blame yourself.
Good luck with NC, stay strong.
H x
Heart Shaped Nose,
The new woman doesn’t ”qualify”. He is full of it. He will eventually treat her the same way he treated you after the newness wears off. Give it time. Men don’t change. After he is with her for awhile and the newness wears off, he will knock on your door again. Slam it in his face!
HSN, this sounds to me like “harem-gathering” talk. Your ex is trying to pull you back in by suggesting that his new girl is fine with the two of you being emotionally close. He wants to hook you and have you as a FBG, for God knows what reason, maybe all of the ones Natalie has listed in her many posts on this subject.
It’s not only incredibly insulting to you, it’s also very shady re the other woman. I can’t speak for all women, but my opinion is that most of us are a little uncomfortable, to say the least, when a man we’re involved with says he has a very close emotional relationship with another woman as well. Yes, we may try to be all good-sporty and free-spirited about it on the surface, but…it shows right off the bat that the guy is probably not going to be all in with us, so RED FLAG.
I feel for the new one in your ex’s life, she’s not getting a better man as far as I can see if he’s playing these games, and he’s saying to you that she’s “different” for him only because (at least from what you’ve posted here) that she’s willing to accept you as another member of the harem! What does that say about his genuine emotional committment to her? Not much from my view…
You are very smart to remember you’ve been burned enough in this particular fire, and where does this AC get the idea that you and he are actually emotionally close anyway??? HUH indeed! Stay strong, love, and move forward and away from this crap. You can do it. Hugs to you.
HSN
so, according to this sorry excuse for a man, the new woman is fine about his “close emotional bond” with you? Indeed! And after three years of him messing you about and screwing you over are *you* not supposed to have a problem with his “close emotional bond” with her? WTF is this guy all about? The irony is that this weasel of a man wouldn’t know a “close emotional bond” if it jumped out his soup and landed him one (if only). This guy is spraying himself all over with very strong smelling “Eau de I’m a Total Waste of Space”. Stick with NC, HSN, and you’ll find your sense of smell will come back to you! You’re good enough for way better than his devious manipulations – he, on the other hand, is good for nothing. Keep reading Natalie’s posts – and her books! Don’t be taken in by this user and abuser any longer. He’s a rascal.
yeah, HSN,
i agree with everyone else. there is no WAY he’s turned over a new leaf. he just wants everyone to think he has.
grace had a comment to magnolia above about knocking the guy off his pedestal. do what you can to knock your AC off his. and i know that natalie has written posts about not going on an archaeological dig to find out all the info on what’s going on with the ex.
i know NC is hard. but try as best you can to think of him less, wonder over it less, focus more on you and what you want out of your life. stop agreeing with the premise that she has something you don’t, that he is now something he didn’t give you, just try to disconnect from it. yes, there is grieving in that, but going through the grief of letting go, however much it hurts, is better than running round the questioning circle.
yeah…ixnay is right. your AC is effin evil. ixnay should know, if i remember correctly, her AC is evil too. no more evil. give yourself good.
lots of hugs
Heart Shaped Noose – “because she different and understands that him and I have a strong emotional bond, and she fine with us being close.”
I wanted to post to you because I’m 2 months into NC and I remember how difficult the very early days of it are. Letting go is so hard, the space it left in my life just got filled with me obsessing about what he was thinking, was he missing me, why didn’t he grow a pair and make OUR relationship work instead of staying in his non existent relationship with his wife when it could have been so good, blah blah, blah! I had so many imaginary conversations with me and him it was untrue! I still miss him but this is definitely “harem speak’ if ever I heard it! Is she really that fine with it? I doubt it, but in the early stages of a relationship some women will say these things so they appear unclingy, understanding and no great burden on the love, trust, care and respect front. If he’s already saying ‘she understands him’ he’s using her as an arm chair therapist too. It sounds like your ex needs the ‘Florence Nightingale’ type (read Natalie’s post on that one) Ask yourself when push comes to shove do you really want him to end it with her and come back and to continue to dump his EUM crap on you? In the early days of NC I just wanted him around because I missed him so much I had to have a long hard talk with myself because deep down I knew the answer was ‘he can’t be what you want him to be’. Stick with NC ( I had a couple of false starts too) you don’t even have to tell him you don’t want to keep in contact, the silence will be a strong enough message that you don’t want to take him up on his crumby (and it is crumbs) offer. Its hard to let go and move on but keep reading the BR posts they will help you through the next few weeks of roller coaster emotions. Good luck.
IntoTheLight,
Thanks for your response to my comments.
I have no intentions on breaking NC, thats for sure. I suppose I just wish right now that I had a crystal ball, and could see what he was up too, although, im sure that would be painful as hell too. I’ve actually become, literally, TERRIFIYED of hearing from him again. Thats how badly this guy has messed with me over the years. Any interaction with him has become very painful. Our last interactions just before NC, were a series of letters, where he told me he loved me, missed me, thought about us being back together,was tired of abusing me, wanted to make changes in his life, knew he needed therapy but couldnt afford it, was going to stop drinking, didnt know what would happen between us, but he hoped we could could remain close best friends and part of his life, as I was the one who had always been there for him and taught him things, that included what it meant to “make love to a woman”, and “how unfair it was that he had a harem” and had since told those other women to take a walk. It wasnt until in one of my letters back to him, that i asked him point blank, “are you dating anyone?” that he answered, after all the previous emails, “Ive been spending time with someone, yes, its been about a month now”.
Thats when I decided that he was never going to give me the relationship that I wanted, he wasnt capable.
Im jut in a place now where i guess im mourning the losses. Just because hes an assclown, and now ive been real about things with myself, doesnt mean that it doesnt hurt. I cared about him. and I do miss him. Even though I know what im doing is for the best.
My self esteem is the worst its probably ever been at this point. Although, I work on it everyday. I think now for me, Its really just about time. Going through the emotions, and healing properly. I have ZERO desire to date. In fact it causes anxiety just thinking about it. Which then makes me wonder how hes able to jump into another relationship so soon?
ARGGHHHHHH…. gonna stick to my mantra. “NC IS THE BEST THING FOR ME!!” ( it rhymes. so its easier to remember!) lol
HSN:
I´m feeling the same way as you, no matter what a moron the guy was, it still hurts like hell!
The only thing that is helping me through it all is to look at the situation from outside – if it were a film I´d admire the girl that chose NC and loathe the AC. It´s also much easier to stick to your decision that way.
Maybe it´s easier to love yourself and raise your self esteem when you take some distance? Anyway, be strong! And NC all the way!!
HSN “Im jut in a place now where i guess im mourning the losses. Just because hes an assclown, and now ive been real about things with myself, doesnt mean that it doesnt hurt.”
When all the letters, phone calls and texts finally stop and you are suddenly just left with yourself and LOTS of time to think about things, the loss of relationship drama hits you like a truck. Suddenly you are left on your own thinking – all that bloody effort, all that time wasted and for what? You get angry, you get pissed off with everything. And the reason? The fact that you know deep down that the NC is real this time and you can see the LONG road of healing ahead – it sucks!
Slowly (and if your anything like me I do mean slowly) you WILL let go a little more each day, at times it feels like you are stuck and you’re never going to go forward, but 2 months of NC down the line I can say that you do and you will.
At the start of NC I didn’t know where the healing would begin or how I would recognise it when it began to happen, but now I understand that although I still miss him and I still miss being in a relationship the difference is that I have finally let go of it and don’t care what he is up to anymore because its nothing to do with my life. Its a baby step, but if you recognise them when they happen it will help you to move forward from the hurt. Tiny changes everyday, but still changes for the better. Stay strong.
I love this post, intothelight! I’m 12 days NC and have moments where I feel like a f*cking rockstar who can totally do this, and others where I am overwhelmed and depressed. Mind you this can shift 10-20 times a day. Reading this was exactly what I needed to get out my rockstar heels….
Go Kitka! I’ll be keeping an eye on you x
🙂 Polly, if you can believe it…soon after I posted this I got the most PATHETIC email from my AC (I’ve blocked him from my phone and fb). My rockstar heels still looked fab because all the email did was start every sentence with “I” and at no point did he profess any love- just that he missed talking to me and he wasn’t sure what was going on with me, not one moment had passed over the last two weeks that he hasn’t thought of me.. P U K E.
If not for this blog and all of y’all I would have gotten that email and not only taken those crumbs as the whole cake, I would have feasted on that empty calorie shit for the next month.
(not saying tomorrow I won’t be sad, I will, but more for the loss of the relationship as opposed to the loss of love, light, and energy I wished he could give.)
Xoxoxox
Kitka
Hehe, yes I do believe it. And course you’ll be sad. You are mourning the loss of hopes, dreams, excitement and the highs you get from the crumbs. You have to go through the pain and sadness though there is no other way I don’t think. You story reminds me of mine which is why I am keeping an eye on you! I was completely blinded for a while by a very bad man and was pretty absent from my parental responsibilities (not the basics but the quality emotional stuff) and my LT partner (but that is another story).
But I am so so so glad I eventually got rid of him from my life and focused back on myself and my family. Keep those heels on love and sleep in them if you have to!
Kitka, Snap!I remember getting a pathetic text about 6 days into my NC all it said was ‘may I ring?’ I ignored it completely, but I saved it my phone for 2 reasons:
1 . The message has the date on, the date I FINALLY (after 2 false starts) stuck with NC for real, I can see how far I’ve come.
2. The sheer lack of effort and fallback girl mentality it represents reminds me of why Im doing it.
At the time when I missed him so much I could have easily replied to it but I am SO glad I didn’t – every now and again I look at it and it makes me feel very empowered – I could have replied but I realised I was worth more than a crappy ‘testing the waters to see if she misses me’ 3 word text message. 🙂
Nicely stated Intothelight. The loss of drama hit me like a truck and suddenly I was left with nothing to think about other than what a wreck my life had become. For what it is worth, HSN, I’ve spent the last year ditching the MM. I’ve been off work for two weeks with another two weeks to go and I’ve never been so productive. I got my finances mostly in order, planted a garden (thanks to Grace), cleaned my garage to the bone, cleaned my den, hung pics, and will buy a new car tomorrow. Then, I start on my daughter’s rooms. It really does work. Once I started focusing on me, there was so much less time to wonder about him. Focus on you and your kids. Give your kids a giant hug and read them a story. It’s amazing how much time is spent agonizing over these AC’s and how much time is lost. Talk about the last chance saloon. I’m starting to think I’m my own last chance saloon. You are far to young to be worrying about dating again! Try 53! Don’t let you be your last chance saloon. Giant hugs to you and your kids.
You’re an inspiration, runner! “It’s amazing how much time is spent agonizing over these AC’s and how much time is lost.” Sad, right?
I have way too much time on my hands to think and ruminate and dwell. Time to get busy.
Just now starting to get interest back in cooking, decorating, caring for my home and spending time with my youngest, who’s 12. My birthday’s coming up which is usually a source of dread but I’m planning to go out dancing & celebrate this year!
Natalie’s recent FB post about strength really made me wake up and take note as well. I’ve been running around feeling helpless and wrecked and ill-done-by because I broke months of NC and he’s the same old EU dipstick. I don’t have to give up my power because he’s an ass. That’s about him. “The strength comes from you – you have it, you’re just not always tapping into it.” LOVE that!
Hey Blueberry and HSN,
It really is time to get busy caring for the things that matter. Once I stopped ruminating 24 hours a day, I realized I had things to do. The more I’ve done, the more I realized I’m certainly good enough. I’m not wearing the “Eu de I’m not good enough” because I got involved with a jackass MM. I made a giant mistake and won’t do it again. Blueberry and HSN, get focused on your kids, they’ll be 20 somethings before you know it. Cook, clean, decorate, plant something with them and watch it grow, read and play with them. My daughter is 22 and I wish I could read to her! We read together so much when she was little. Now all she wants to do is shop on my nickle. I did the kicking myself around the backyard when I broke NC too. But I always crawled back on the NC wagon. Once I started focusing on me and getting things accomplished in my life, I’ve been a lot less tempted to break NC. Sometimes it’s just little things like planting peppers or deep cleaning the garage/den. Sometimes it’s big things like getting a great deal on a car. This is a really tough time because it’s the anniversary of an devastating event and election time in the U.S. HSN, I know you are struggling with serious issues and I’d like to send you strength.
I’m thinking that these AC’s are wearing “Eu de I’m not good enough parfume” and I’m just starting to recognize the stench, thanks to Natalie and the BR community. They stink.
HSN, I want to encourage you to think about YOU and not him.
I understand your need to make sense of some of the madness, so, imho, him being able “to jump into a relationship so soon” helps him avoid having to address his own issues. It’s an escape tactic. He jumps from one runaway train to another which let’s him off the hook, takes your hurt and pain out of his sight, and gives him another “journey” to look forward to.
Unfortunately, he’s leaving a shambles in his wake; the “new” girl is a diversion who won’t escape his EU ways either. Stay the course and look forward to leaving him in the distance.
I just wanted to say thank you to all you ladies, …
I took something away from all your comments. Ixnay, your right, I know he a liar, and if not a liar, he is at the very least manipulative. Silverbee, its true, I thought about the fact that she is most likely just saying she fine with everything, just like i did when i first met him, as he was hung up on the ex before ME. Its all just a repeat pattern for him, and I can see that now. The new woman is in the same spot I was in 3 years ago. He jumps into relationships so that he doesnt have to deal with the pain or clean up after the last one. In fact, when I questioned him about it a few weeks ago, he said, “well what am I supposed to do?..just sit at home and watch tv by myself? you know I hate being alone.”..WOW!
Lilia, I think INTOTHELIGHT is right, I dont really think that im mourning the loss of him, I dont know if I even actually miss him. I think Im just scared of all the quietness and lack of drama I have now. It forces me to look inward, and Im looking at my mistakes in this whole 3 year debacle. I do get lonely at times too. I wonder if at 36 im going to find anyone to date again, and then again, the thought of dating is terrifiying too! I know right now that I need to think about me, and not him, like Blueberry Girl has said. Somedays, its just so damn tough to NOT go there.
The past three years stress has caused a lot of issues for me healthwise, i havent been able to work because of my depression and anxiety, my doctors told me that it would be best to go on disability, so, being on that and raising two kids and keeping a roof over our heads has been near impossible finacially. Im thinking that Im just about ready now, to go and look for work. I got my resume ready, and I think its time. My hope is that it will help my self esteem, and maybe I will meet some new people in the town where I recently moved. I thought too, about the fact that i was always too ashamed to tell the ex that I was on disability. He had no clue the entire time that we were off and on, that I was struggling finacially to keep things together, and that I ended up having to declare bankruptcy, and am my kids and I are living with family. HE HAD NO CLUE. I WAS TO SCARED TO TELL HIM. That in itself is messed up. I carried on a show the whole time, that everything was fine, that sure I had bad days, but it wasnt…
(continued from above)…all that horrible. When in fact ive been sidelined by severe depression and anxiety, Ive been hospitalized in the psych ward for “mental exhaustion” last year, ive contemplated suicide several times, I lost over 20 pounds, and there wasnt a day that went by that I didnt cry myself to sleep. I cant believe the things that I put up with. Thanks for keeping me strong ladies. It means the world to me.
blueberry girl… Yes, you are right… It takes them off the hook, takes your hurt & pain out of sight, and gives him another journey (victim) to look forward to… In a way I pity his new victim. She has no clue. He looks so good on the outside, successful, charming, ect…. I told him he is like a diamond. All sparkly, beautiful looking, and something every girl dreams off.
Problem is, deep down there is a huge flaw, invisable to the naked eye…. But its there and eventually its presence is known by everyone who dares to look deeply. So sad but true…
Thanks for the post..
Dear HSN, just have to confirm all the other responses to you. He is just a furtive little liar, not some evil overlord holding others fate in his hands. We have to get all this stuff in perspective, although I am with you on dreading any contact. It is numbingly hurtful to have any interaction with someone who treats others with zero respect, merely targets them as a useable object. That includes the new victim.
Read Natalie’s post on practicing calm etc when and if you speak, it really helps just to internalize her advice on that. And the good news is, that after an agonizingly slow start, it gradually speeds up. You can’t force it, because its about so much more than this ‘dicksplash’, it’s about you and your whole mindset. So, it’s kind of good, promise.
I like the eau de not good enough analogy, I had always envisioned a kind of dog whistle or radio waves that only the susceptible could hear. Healthy people would not even turn their heads, or prick up their ears, think of all that AC propaganda as a broadcast from Lord Haw Haw. If you don’t know, google it, it’s creepy and hysterical.
All the best.
Yet another great article Natalie 🙂
This is very true, I always felt insecure, assuming that I wasn’t good enough to be treated as an equal in my relationship or that I wasn’t good enough to be involved in my ex’s family life, but nevertheless he is still an AC and EUM, but I now know that I am good enough and that I have to love myself more. When I started writing the unsent letter, I really tapped into why I felt certain emotions aside from the fact that I wasn’t receiving the love,care,trust and respect that should’ve come standard in my relationship,( needless to say this added to my insecurities) but I was always so self-conscious about my appearance and while it good may be a good thing that we all take good care of ourselves, it wasn’t really about me, it was how I appeared to others, especially him. (can’t believe I’m actually saying this), I always compared myself to others, which relates to the self-esteem issues I had and may still have. I wanted to be the perfect gf for him, because he always spoke about how I should dress and that I shouldn’t look like a plain jane just because we were going to the movies for example, which made me feel like I had to continuously look dolled up and now that I think of it I was more like an accessory that he could parade around with, the trophy gf on his side etc..it really messed me up and I wanted to feel validated and that I was wanted/needed for me and not what he could turn me into. While we all like to make an effort to look good for our partners, it shouldn’t make us feel that if we don’t, they wouldn’t want to be with us, but that’s how I felt…another example of how he effed with my head was when he said “if you were a bad gf like so and so I wouldn’t be with you” and the more I think about it now the more what the effs are going though my head, because he could dictate to me the type of gf he wanted, yet he wasn’t making any effort on his part to be a good boyfriend to me and I felt owed!! and started telling him that he should be a certain way too and I guess I am guilty if trying to change him too, because I felt owed*UUUURGH*. Anyway when I decided to call it quits and break up with him, a part of me still wanted him to fight for me, again it was because I wanted to feel validated because I knew that I was good enough but I just wanted him to see that, but the other part of me…
sorry half was left out…was too exhausted to fight and argue about it anymore and during these past 2 months I’ve been learning to love myself again, its not easy after having someone crush your self-esteem in more than one way for 3 1/2 years, but I am healing and I know that I am going to be okay.
Even although I loved him a lot, I actually don’t know why, considering he treated me in a less than manner and I also realised that he’s not my best friend either or a friend to say the least, because friends don’t treat each other that way. My mom was actually telling me the other day that when I meet someone someday, I should make sure that he’s able to be a friend to me in the relationship. I don’t miss him either, so the sadness or anger I feel now and then is because I let myself go through that. I no longer wish things were different though and I my heart knows that he isn’t good for me, as in it never would have worked, well it didn’t LOL but I just need to work on myself now and allow myself to heal properly.
Wow this post has come at exactly the right time. I seem to have been dumped yet again by my EUM – although, as on previous occasions, I have to guess this is the case as he won’t be so upfront as to actually tell me! Just cancelled dates (3 in the last 2 weeks – 4 if you include the fact that we had also planned to meet today but it’s now not looking likely at all), ignoring texts, turning off his phone, general coward behaviour. I am going to keep reading this post because it is extremely useful!! I am VERY pr0ne to turning it all round onto me and that I’m just not good enough, but it’s not true! Thank you Natalie – you are brilliant.
I am day 3 of NC and this post couldn’t have come at a better time. I have worn NOT GOOD enough on my forehead for my entire marriage and throughout my affair with a MM. If I had even one ounce of self worth I would never have opened the door to the MM. He told me once he was an opportunist and proved with with me. His opportunity came when he saw my not good enough sign. I have cried for an entire week trying to figure out what is wrong with me. Natalie, thank you so much for this post. I will read and reread it to try to maintain NC and get my self worth back. I deserve so much better.
Georgia, it’s not that you are wearing a “not good enough” sign.
Opportunists, and boundary-busters are pretty much indiscriminate. They try every door, jiggle every doorknob. If it’s locked they are nonplussed and move on to the next door.
They get in when we are receptive to their behavior and ignore things like crappy treatment and a wife. They will get away with as much as we let them, not because we are wearing a sign that says, “Kick me! I’m not good enough!” His opportunity came when you didn’t think that him being married was a dealbreaker.
Letting them in the door is their sign.
Sunshine thank you for replying. What you said made a lightbulb go off in my head. I broke it off with him for 6 months when my husband found out and let him back in when a mutual good friend of ours died. I have to nail that door shut forever or I will never regain my self esteem. As long as I am with him, I don’t have to face my troubled marriage. I think its time to “man up” and face that I allowed the door to open and reopen knowing we are both married.
Sunshine, thank you for replying. A lightbulb went off in my head when you said letting them in the door is their sign. I broke it off with him for 6 months when my husband found out. I reopened the door when a mutual friend of ours died and he couldn’t save the guy. I was his shoulder to cry on. I know now I need to “man up” and close the door forever if I hope to feel good about myself again. I can no longer blame a crappy marriage as an excuse to be with someone else.
omg Sunshine……talk about your words helping me see the light!!
‘Opportunists, and boundary-busters are pretty much indiscriminate. They try every door, jiggle every doorknob. If it’s locked they are nonplussed and move on to the next door.’
Wow. wow wow wow. Sometimes it just takes the right person to put things in the right way for the lightbulb to go on. You have helped enormously.
Thanks!!
So happy my words were illuminating!
Natalie’s article about outrageous behavior really helped me *get* it, it’s not personal, it’s how they are, and it is so important to have our electric fence of good boundaries!
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/the-outrageous-principle-when-someone-tests-you-to-see-how-much-they-can-get-away-with/
Thanks for the link, Sunshine, that was very interesting. It does make me wonder, though, WHY would someone want to test our boundaries all the time? Isn´t that a bit neurotic? Or just infantile, perhaps.
I´ve never received as much outrageous boundary-busting as I did with my most recent EUM/AC, it was really creepy. My mom´s conclusion was this: he´s a strange-strange-strange-strange guy. I can´t think of a better explanation than that. It´s probably a waste of time to try to find one, but I guess that if there´s some explanation to their behaviour, it seems less threatening.
The Scorpion and the Frog
A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the
scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The
frog asks, “How do I know you won’t sting me?” The scorpion
says, “Because if I do, I will die too.”
The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream,
the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of
paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown,
but has just enough time to gasp “Why?”
Replies the scorpion: “Its my nature…”
Ah yes, Sunshine, that makes sense… Seems like I´ve been a terribly naive frog.
You and me both, Lilia. I’ve always been unable to fathom why they do it. I automatically respect peoples boundaries. It’s not hard.
Sunshine’s words hit home to me because the day before I read them I took a friend over to look at a house I wanted to rent. I peeked in the windows, but he immediately tried every door and jiggled every window to see if he could get in (the house was vacant). I was REALLY startled, I would never even think of doing that; he grinned and said “I always do that”.
It was really good to have that image in mind when I read Sunshine’s words. Now I see that there are just people who try to get anything and everything, and it’s not about me at all. It’s just their nature. *shrug*
woah. that is deep and sort of scary.
Brilliant post, sooo needed to read this today, am 3 days into no contact after a third and final ‘suck it and see’ and by lord did it suck, and the thing is he isn’t what i want at all, it was who he pretended to be, and finally he admitted that he couldn’t be that man he said he was, that he ‘hated being happy’ and he didn’t want to be happy,????!!!! Well i do! and i’m going to be, i know that i have many issues that have allowed me to accept this kind of crap, and for the first time in my life i am taking responsibility for the part i have played in all my relationship and i find that really empowering…scary but exciting too, i’m going to do whats best for me now , including a dating hiatus and therapy and create a life that i love for me
go, hayley, go! inspirational!
Hayley, I don’t even know what I would think or say to anyone – man or woman – who said they “hated/didn’t want to be happy.” It is such an insanely abnormal and beyond self-defeating sentiment to think or say such a thing, that distancing yourself (as far as possible) is the only healthy or reasonable response. I believe this qualifies as an “epiphany relationship” even more than most! Good for you that you are taking the right steps to become someone who won’t attract or tolerate this type of dysfunctional BS. Who says that to anyone?!! Even more than I wouldn’t want to date him, I wouldn’t want to be him! Was he looking for you to be a “Florence” and fix him? Truly, I thought I heard it all here! The hell with him, you do deserve to be happy!
Have to say this. Reflecting on my EU…he had a 13 year old daugher that I didn’t meet until six months in because he had to be sure, had to protect her. The meeting of her caught me off guard. Typical scenario of can’t see me because he had her that night (remember, I hadn’t met her). He knew I was having dinner with my mom and where. He calls and asks where I am, what’s taking so long? Why, I ask. He was sty the restaurant with her waiting for me. Surprise. I was finally worthy. Four months laterI had been invited to do one thing with with her and him. The rest of our crumb dates were the two of us. Yes, many night of I’ll call you back and didn’t, many weekends of “I can’t go out because I have her” even after meeting her! I discover a major flaw in him, won’t share but a major deal breaker! Still had to see him to get his version, crazily thinking he’d tell me the truth, see we’d been together ten months now. In this conversation I said something like “our relationship”. He interrupted and said “What relationship?” I clearly remember the shock of his statement yet went on to explain it is a relationship just like we have family relationships, work relationships, etc. (idiot, me). He says oh, almost like a sigh of relief that it wasn’t so serious. We talked it out and had a fun evening (yes, you read right, I didn’t walk away after that statement). The next weekend was our last day together. We had fun yet I didn’t feel the same. I was feeling all the things Natalie describes we feel about EUs. Of course he called during the week, not the weekend, for three more weeks. The texts dropped off. Then, he just didn’t call or text again. Vanished. Poof. Nearly two months of NC and I’m relieved the drama is over. NML’s words will help me not make that mistake again!
@Tracy
Yep, it is entirely possible for one to be out of synch with the culture of where we live. We atill have to be who we actually are though, and not let their lack if interest be felt as a judgement of us. I struggle with the same issue; I live in a small, redneck, pro-mining mountain town. I am a highly educated environmentalist who FOUGHT against the damn mines back home and on occasion won. Most of the progressives that are anywhere near my age have left. Its hard not to see ones isolation as a reflection of ones value as a human being at times. The way a man “judges” you on line is based mainly on a photo or two, most of them must just skim your profile if at all. It does take a long time of in person contact to actually know who someone is. I do not know where you live, Tracy, but here, most of the on line guys in Colorado tend towards the overweight motorcycle worshipper type; the few good looking, healthy ones cannot get off their butts long enough to drive here from Boulder although they have zero qualms about traveling half way around the globe. That too is a reflection of them and no one else. Are there other towns within safe driving distance around you? Most college towns have a more liberal and tolerant atmosphere.
Leaving next year when my younger child graduates from high school. Family will be upset, but so be it. Back to a college town for me!
Wow, another timely post. Went on a date with someone the other night and because I was a little bit tipsy, flirty and interested, ( he quite reserved), I spent the next morning facepalming myself that I came across as ‘desperate’. But now I realise that I was being myself, and if he doesn’t like it, its not my problem, its his! I’m not going to pretend to be an ice-queen if I’m not one
As an EUF I want to back up Natalie’s (as usual) brilliant post.
A friend had got his doctorate, was broke, and in the course of applying for every job in a thirty mile radius he also applied for night work stacking shelves. They sent him a rejection letter. He felt sure enough rejected. Then he decided they probably saw he had a PhD and they realised (a) he wasn’t going to stick around long, (b) he’d be an unhappy employee, and even (c) he would be wasting his time there when he could be out getting a job he actually needed and wanted.
Someone might give you ‘reluctant no’ signals because they feel, even if you don’t, that you are overqualified for a low-return, inconvenient, poor-prospects relationship. However dumb their methods might be to try to detach you, they’re probably just no better than you are at rejecting someone ‘nicely’. I’ve done this. I’ve genuinely liked someone, fancied him, wished it could work out and still been a decent enough person to recognise that I was not offering what I knew he should be looking for.
In these circumstances, ‘er, um’ or — after one or a few dates or even a later reminder date — is relatively honest. We can all wish we were so self-actualised and responsible as to know our own minds all the time and say right out, ‘Sorry, no, I’m EU/an AC’ but come on, you should first of all not expect everyone to have the same or better degrees in emotional literacy than you have got and secondly, allow yourself the thought that you’re desirable enough to have caused a little doubt and confusion 🙂 … Accept the backhanded compliment, update your inner cv, move on, aim high!
harriet
I love this. If we’re happy and have reasonable self esteem we won’t be so easily offended by other people’s mis-steps. We can even look on the bright side!
grace,
I agree. Evolving a thicker skin is hard but when I manage not to be so easily offended, presto, other people’s actions in life and love magically cease to offend. I like your responses to NML’s posts because you present things very straight, albeit with a ‘bright-sided’ slant 🙂
* ‘er, um’ or tumbleweed
Love this post. I just recently started a new relationship (2 mos ago) after a 7 month break. Took the time to recover from a painful break up after 1 1/2 years of being with an AC. I’m better but still find myself wondering whats wrong with me if he doesn’t call for 2 days. This post helps so much. thanks.
I think I wrote a similar comment in a past article about rejection. I think it’s also worth looking at ourselves when we reject someone, and the reasons why we do it. Sometimes, it IS about the other person, and about the fact that we don’t perceive them as good enough for us, or that we actually dislike them. For example, a guy I’d known for quite a while (1 year and a half) tried to hit on me. Apart from the fact that I never found him attractive, he is also very arrogant and acts like he’s better than everyone else. Many people dislike him because of that. When he tried to hit on me, he also did it in a very “condescending” way. Like – me sitting next to him, he puts his hand on my knee, I start to feel uncomfortable. He goes: “I’m not trying to hit on you. But if you want me to hit on you, I’ll hit on you.” Me: “Ehmm… Nope.” Him (surprised): “No??” Well, needles to say that in the next few hours he acted a bit offended. Not to mention that the guy I like was also around, and he was visibly getting a better treatment from me, because (apart from the attraction factor), he’s gentle, respectful, and well-mannered. I was the same person on the same day, but behaving differently towards the 2 guys according to the feelings *they* created in me. As far as “Mr. Boombastic” is concerned, I was rejecting *him* as a person, and I would choose other people instead of him at any time.
On a different note, when we feel rejected, if it’s possible, we should also look at the other person’s general behaviour in order to figure out if it’s about them or about us. For example, imagine a guy surrounded by many women all the time. He flirts or has casual flings with many of them, but doesn’t enter a serious relationship with any one of them. It’s hard to believe that out of so many women, none of them was good enough. Therefore, the problem is HIM. Or, a guy who is undecided about us, but is also undecided about other areas of his life as well, going back and forth on all decisions (work, directions to take in life, or even small things like to make or not to make a week-end trip). Indecision is a basic aspect of his personality, therefore…the problem is HIM.
I admit I have pushed away some guys by having a wrong attitude, especially when I was younger. Think being pushy, not taking no for an answer, embarrassing myself in social situations,…
Sandra.. good post. I was at a business lunch this week with two guys I’m trying to network with. One of the guys basically asked me out when the other one went to the bathroom. I totally wasnt interested, why…#1 because he is a business contact and based on my poor dating history I’d rather have the contact and #2 because he was at least 15 years older than me and obese, grossly obese. Two reasons here, one was about me and I guess the other was about me too, I like to date guys close to my age and even though I have a thing for chubby guys this guy was just way too big for me.
I like this, Natalie. Thank you. My cousin is a classic case of realising he can’t deliver – on commitment, dealing with someone else’s weaknesses, being vulnerable with someone, allowing someone to have a bad day, allowing someone to let him have a bad day – and, upon this realisation, making up all manner of contradictory excuses to bail (from a tone of voice she used in a certain conversation to lack in ambition, to too tall and not health-conscious enough). It goes on and on. I often tell try to enlighten him on his behaviour, but he gets so specific and defensive. Meanwhile, I wish I could tell these women, who are regularly heart-broken by him, that they’d be wise looking at it from this angle! As ever, the odds were always mightily stacked in favour of the House.
p.s. Fearless – your soup comment provided much laughter.
to all those posting here who are worried about jumping back in the dating pool-
this post is great (thank you, again, natalie) and really helps put things in perspective. it is really all about fit. and “rejection” really = doesn’t fit. there doesn’t have to be a value judgment associated with that, however much it is hard not to make a judgment either about the other person or about ourselves and to not feel “rejected”.
last night i had a 1st date with a guy i met online and had more phone conversations with than we should have had, which only served to build up expectations. when we met, i liked him, but i got the feeling through the date that it wasn’t really a fit, he needs more intensity (odd, to have the tables turned, usually i’m the one who is “too intense”) than i can consistently deliver. this morning he broke it off. doesn’t feel good, but if i’m honest, i knew it wasn’t a fit last night.
i think part of why i didn’t do the breaking off is that i’m still clinging to the idea that i’ll never meet the right guy, so i need to try to make the one i do meet fit. but that never works. i need to have more faith that i can opt out and be ok. for some reason i don’t yet seem to really believe that, i guess i don’t really trust myself yet, or i have a subconscious knee-jerk reaction that its my fault, my inadequacy, if it doesn’t fit. that’s what i need to keep working on.
so, today it doesn’t feel good, but really, i don’t have to sit here feeling rejected. it just didn’t fit. and, probably, he did me a favor. doesn’t mean i’m “wrong” or that i shouldn’t keep trying, growing, learning to stay on my own side. learning nearly always hurts, but … i think that’s the nature of learning.
so, believe in yourselves. dating is HARD, and finding the right person is HARD, but it is what’s required if we want to find a partner.
rocking on,
with love
hi cc,
sounds like you’re head is on straight, and you are telling yourself all the right things.
I know it doesn’t feel great, but hang in there. needing more intensity on a first date sounds like code for needing more instant gratification/codependence/validation. I think as we get healthier, dating does become less intense, more calm, and a bit shy of the insta-connection. who knows (or cares) what was missing for this dude, what matters most is that you felt uneasy.
Yesterday I was supposed to go on a first date with someone I met online. He had been kind of inconsistent about getting back to me, and at 2 I hadn’t yet heard back as to where we were meeting (we were meeting at 6). So I wrote and told him I didn’t know if we were on and had made other plans- wished him luck, and signed off. This is totally new behavior for me, for the same reasons you mention above, and it was kind of scary to do it but it also felt really great. I don’t have to wait around to see if some flaky moron decides to grace me with a text/call/email! If he isn’t communicating basic consideration from the beginning, he not worth my time.
Good for you, Izzybell! I wish I’d done something similar with the EU….any time he deigned to hint at a plan (rather than just stopping by at the last minute like he normally did) I would be left wondering whether or not it would materialize on the day of.
Ditto to all of that…I recently ended a 4 month relationship with a man that wanted more than I could possibly give in such short time. I explained time and time again that I needed things to go slower. He would say that he would take it slower BUT he kept pushing for more. It seemed that he was searching for an immediate wife and family(his wife of 23 years died just a year ago). He was good looking, fun, rich, successful but…insecure, needy and a bit of a bully. It hurts like hell to be without the attention but in the long run I would have lost myself with this man. In four months I had already begun to stop doing many of the things I loved.
Thanks for posting. It helps to hear that others feel the same way and are in similar situations.
Rock on cc !
Thank you for sharing your experience, strength, and hope………………….~~~~~~~~:)
thanks, guys,
and thanks for thinking i sound strong. i don’t really feel strong, i feel like slightly hammered crap. but more slightly than i would once have felt.
now that i reflect on it – this guy was a total narcissist. and yes, izzybell, wanting *intensity* is actually a red flag. which i saw when we were just talking on the phone, went on the date anyway, and it proved itself out. i do see drama/intensity more clearly now, and for what they are – seeking a high that isn’t at all part of a healthy relationship.
as my last therapy session ended, i (serendipitously, it turned out) asked “do i have homework?” yes, she said – and she sent me links to books about breaking the influence of growing up with narcissistic parents. i’m choosing narcissists unconsciously, though apparently less so. i’m becoming more aware of this characteristic in others.
anyway…thanks again to all. i needed BR today.
I think it is interesting to understand the reasons why we choose not to pursue potential relationships, as the flip side of having someone else decide to not go further. Another poster commented on this above.
The last person I went on a few dates with and decided against pursuing further was based on the fact that she didn’t want much face time in a relationship. Her needs for actually being together were much lower than mine. So I told her right away that it’s a drag cause I like her a lot, but I want to be with someone who wants to share lots more than a few dates a month.
She was sexy, smart, fun, and we would have made quite a mice match, but NO, actually we’d of been horrible for each other.
I don’t feel like I rejected her at all, and I don’t think she felt that way either. It was just a tiny bubble bursting.
Oh, the delight of reading this post! First, there was this: “Did they watch you when you weren’t looking and realise that you weren’t good enough when you were holding your drink at a 14 degree angle?” [Cue giggle.] Then, there was this: “Maybe it was the Spanx or the big granny knickers?” [Yes!] And, then, just when I thought I’d laughed my last: “Ordered a steak when you should have ordered a salad?” Oh, the neurosis! Scary, when it’s in my head…hilarious when I read it written down on Nat’s blog!!! Thanks, NML!
My EU just told me that an old girlfriend is coming in to town and she will be staying with him next week. So I said goodbye. Broken hearted but this article helps.
Marie, I’m sorry to hear that and it’s very familiar to me. Your few words seem to say so much. She’s an ‘old’ girlfriend, she’s staying with him for a short time, might be more to it, might not. Maybe he expects you to neatly disappear while she’s there and reappear when she’s gone. You chose not to and said goodbye. It gets better from here. No more nasty surprises or apprehensions of nasty surprises. I can’t tell you how much I don’t miss being kept on a thread like that and dropped at random. It’s great that you are in control and I hope you treat yourself with kindness.
marie-
ugh… sorry. but try to not be so broken-hearted. notice how he’s choosing someone EU – she lives out of town, distance being the classic emotional buffer – and he’s hurting someone who is RIGHT THERE. what a chump.
i know it hurts, but look at it – he doesn’t deserve your pain. he’s not choosing her over you – he’s choosing emotional unavailability.
and GOOD for you for not hanging around. trust me, you’ll look back on this and think you’re a warrior queen for saying goodbye, its better for you than you can understand now. you said NO. good, good, good for you.
marie-
wait a sec – and if he calls you when she leaves, do. not. entertain. him. at all. read natalie’s posts on why you shouldn’t let an EU/AC come crawling back, there was one just the other day about the “i miss you” trap.
and if he doesn’t call you – be glad. be very glad. don’t let that hurt you. i’m sorry you’re hurting, but good riddance.
Marie, you are NOT an option. Keep repeating it. I’m doing the same.
I was thinking the same thing CC!
Months ago, my EUM told me (after the fact) that a “girl” that was just a “friend” from out of town had stayed the weekend with him…Didn’t even tell me before, not that I was accustomed to seeing him weekends anyway (he trained me very well to accept that he would probably be busy with his guy friends on the weekends, I should only expect some last minute invite on a random Tuesday night- haha! not in so many words, but I was trained or brainwashed this way…truly) That I should be excited and honored to get the last minute “Hey, sitting over here having a drink, want to join me?” And, hate to admit it, I would drop whatever I was doing to go flying over there since this may be my only chance to see him this week- better be cool with his Assclownery- or else he’ll think you are a drag… got to be the easy going, fun to be around chick he wants to keep seeing, don’t ya know…
So I’m supposed to be so fine with girl “friends” spending the weekend with him, while I NEVER have spent a weekend with him… So weird… and I now want to barf. He claims he has a very clear line he doesn’t cross with girl “friends”… So, then I think, okay- I guess they are really great old friends from school. I can accept that. But why not invite me to join them at some point? UGH!!! I’m getting madder as I write this- never thoroughly thought about it til I read Marie’s post. I’m great at giving men the benefit of the doubt. No More!
The more I read here, the more stupid AC incidents I am recalling and seeing for what they were. At the time a lot of things happen, I don’t necessarily recognize it as assclownery- somehow I felt like I was being prudish, unreasonable, so unhip should I question his behavior. So I didn’t.
And I’m in Day 3 of NC… Flush!
The timing and sentiment of this post was perfect. I went a 1st date last night with a man who contacted me online a few days ago. We exchanged a few emails and established that we live blocks away from each other in our large city and share many mutual interests. He was smart, funny, established and we were nearly perfect on paper in age, interests, location, etc., but, alas, it was not meant to be… It was my first time on a date with someone other than the Ex in many years. By the time I awoke this morning, I already had a nice email from the date saying in effect that he enjoyed the evening and was attracted to me but didn’t see us having a future together.
I was disappointed we didn’t hit it off since I don’t meet men in real life as easily as I used to when I was younger and figure it may be a while before anyone else comes along with whom there’s mutual interest but I was mostly relieved by his immediate and respectful rejection of a relationship with me. Although we both admitted to having high hopes beforehand, we really aren’t right for each other. We had a pleasant enough evening together but there were things about him that bothered me. Not AC or EU things. More like being a bit of a peter pan in some lifestyle choices and, even though he can afford it, an aversion to paying a valet to park his car at a restaurant even for a first date – kind of things!
Anyway, I’m glad I got my feet wet in the dating pool again and am not taking the rejection of a relationship with me personally in spite of the outcome. And, I know that, if it had been my choice, I could have declined a future date with him based upon my own feelings and what I want in a mate without giving in to last chance saloon thinking.
Also, I’m not NC with the recent Ex as of last week but I am no longer pinning expectations on him or taking his past AC behavior as a personal rejection. I still feel sad (and he has said the same) about what happened between us but I am accepting that we are 2 separate people living our lives with our own interests in mind. I am not condoning his capacity for assholery but, in some odd way, the recent contact combined with my new attitude/acceptance of the situation, actually helped spur me on to put myself out there and open myself up to the possibility of meeting and moving on with someone else.
so not ready to date right now…but amm already feeling kind of lonely now that I am single again. I do feel like this article is very helpful in terms of not only men issues but people issues. I am a really social person who seems confident on the outside but I am actually pretty neurotic having grown up moving all the time and living with lots of non family and such….I sometimes feel like people can see how anxious I feel as I have never really felt at home anywhere and I am usually-at least lately-dealing with people who have spent their whole lives in the same place….i need to remind myslef that no one is thinking about me nearly as much as i imagine…lol….they have their own insecurities!
I think online dating attracts EU men because it allows them to hide behind electronic messaging, and they can jump on and off without investing the time it takes to really get to know someone. A lot of the guys I have encountered this way seem to be window shopping for their fantasy woman instead of pursuing a meaningful relationship. I think that’s why we see the same faces over and over again, and many of them are people who haven’t had long-term relationships even though they’re 40-plus.
I’ve discovered that meetups are a far better way to meet potential dates. There are meetups in every city, for every interest imaginable, they’re usually free, and because you’re just socializing without pressure, it’s way more natural. There’s my two cents!
kerry-
yeah, once i started to feel that i had played out an online dating site – because really, how could that happen, especially in a city of millions like NYC – i realized i’m probably looking in the wrong place, that the man i want isn’t there, or if he is, that’s not how i’ll meet him.
Hi Ladies,
I just wanted to say thank you for all your support here. Im here everyday, sometimes commenting. Sometimes not. But always listening, and considering, and in awe of the strength of you ladies. I wouldnt be NC, or as strong as I feel without all of you.
I wanted to share this link, I found it inspiring, comforting, and full of hope and relevant.
Hope you all enjoy!
http://www.purposefairy.com/3308/15-things-you-should-give-up-in-order-to-be-happy/
thanks, HSN.
Hi Ladies
You know that article about fearing that he might become a better person in a better relationship without you? well I read it etc, but now my EUM is sending me text messages saying that he has learnt so much from our relationship and that he is definitely going to treat the next person he is with a lot better and he is pretty sure that she will appreciate it. I know that he’s just trying to get to me and is probably hoping that I’d be sad about it etc, but I’m not sad I just want to punch him in the face for saying something stupid like that. He’s behaving like this because I haven’t been replying to his messages and he knows that I’m moving on. Its just annoys me because he used to make me feel like I wasn’t worthy of being treated with the same love,care,trust and respect that had shown him and I’m not going to throw away all of the progress that I made. I guess I still have some stuff to work on. It doesn’t help that its that time of the month too 🙁
LGO!
hang on – don’t despair – you already called it, but you’re not really seeing it. he’s STILL treating you “like I wasn’t worthy of being treated with the same love,care,trust and respect that had shown him” – its SUPER shitty to say “thanks for teaching me to be less of an asshole, i’ll be sure and apply that to my next victim” – do you see? he’s completely manipulating you, taking the shots closer and closer to the heart because you’re not responding….
…which means the NC is working, at least with respect to him, but not so much with respect to you. STOP feeling bad. he’s a class-A jerk and a half, and a shitty guy to boot. bringing up his next person who will appreciate it? is he kidding? no! douche maneuver!!
just step back and see it for what it is. you don’t have as much stuff to work on as you think – you’re just having a vulnerable moment.
and sorry you have cramps – no, that doesn’t help
Unbelievable. Really. But not really because as cc so rightly points out they have spent the relationship working out what your hooks are and know exactly what to say to stick the knife in properly. It is easy to say but just ignore him, he is pathetic. Mine did something similar, talking about what he had learnt and what he would do differently next time. It is just them revealing their lack of decency and getting pretty desperate. GRRRRR though!
exactly! the fact that he would say this to you PROVES he’s a t-o-o-l tool. no decent person worth your time would ever say that to another. yes, its annoying as hell – but don’t take it seriously – it doesn’t mean ANYTHING about you. it means, and only means, he’s a tool.
“I’m not sad I just want to punch him in the face for saying something stupid like that”
Ahaha, that sounds like the right reaction! What an idiot….”I’ll treat the next one better and she’ll appreciate it”. If he actually had seen the light he would not be sending you stupid messages like this.
What an asshole. The only comfort you can get out of this is that he must be pretty pissed off by your NC that he´s trying to get your attention that way.
And as you won´t reply to all his silliness, he´ll end up feeling really ridiculous.
The thing with these ACs is that they thrive on drama and manipulations and passive-agressive behaviours, so if you pull out your whip of indifference they go crazy – and that is how you can get even with them (even if you aren´t looking for that), which is always better than ending up as the victim.
Thank you,Polly, cc, A and Lilia!! 🙂 You guys are absolutely right! He is a tool and he probably hasn’t seen the light, because leopards don’t change their spots. He never had the decency then and he doesn’t have it now either and its actually rather pathetic now that I think about it. Thank you for making me feel better you guys 🙂 it means so much having support from those who have gone/ is going through the same thing , because you all understand me.
Lots of love and hugs 🙂
lilia-
whip. of. indifference.
that is hysTERical, AND i bet it comes with an awesome costume! yay!
Yes… “whip of indifference”… I’m gonna write that one down as I begin NC for the umpteenth time.
Ooh ladies, glad you liked it but to be honest I don´t deserve credit for that. It´s a common expression we use here where I live (I´m in South America) and I guess I just translated it to english…
‘your whip of indifference’ – love it!!!. Will keep that image in mind.
*CRRAAACK*
He’s doing a grown-up version of “nyah nyah!” or “keep-away.”
You see it? You see it? You can’t have it! I’ve got it. I’m going to give it to someone else! Nyah nyah!
It’s a big, yummy, gooey chocolate chip cookie, all fresh from the oven. You’re the one who taught me how to bake, but now that I can make yummy cookies I’ll find someone who sees me as the source of yummy cookies and doesn’t know that I used to just throw flour around and wait to be fed cookies.
It’s childish, but it’s dressed up in pop-psych self-actualization language and faux gratitude. I HATE when opportunistic, selfish people adopt “self-aware” stances only to make their selfishness seem like growth.
Can you bring yourself to block these texts? It’s like inviting poison into your life to read them.
I mean, imagine a good friend. Can you even fathom that a good friend would start sending taunting texts saying that they realize now what friendship is and that they’ve fallen short, and, by the way, they’re going to practice these skills with a fresh new friend who they haven’t already let down a bunch of times. So you should be happy for them. No! Good friends bring their growth organically into existing friendships and don’t taunt you with the self-actualization they’ve gained at your expense.
And, btw, anyone who DOES need to taunt you this way has demonstrably FAILED at exactly the growth they want you to admire.
LGO –
glad it helped, but ixnay NAILED it. that’s what i was trying to say. he’s entirely full of shit, LGO. don’t fall for it.
ixnay:
I am FRAMING that and putting it on my wall.
Pure dead brilliant
“And, btw, anyone who DOES need to taunt you this way has demonstrably FAILED at exactly the growth they want you to admire.”
ixnay, that’s perfect. And we can all see it, clear as day.
LGO, You’re doing well with NC! His mind effery to get a rise out of you is cruel & contemptible.
He’s picking a fight like a kid on the playground. Ewww.
Wow thank you, I really needed that! Very true ixnay, it’s exactly what he’s trying. …He’s such a buttplug!… I feel a lot better now, knowing that I’m the one moving forward and he’ll still be the same selfish sod I left behind.
Unfortunately I can’t block them, unless anyone knows how to block texts messages on BB’s ? I’ve already blocked him from sending me IM’s, emails and on facebook, but the minute the text comes through I’ll delete instead of reading it.
Thank you once again and to everyone else for the support and comments 🙂
Aaaaaaaaaaaamen Ixnay!! So well said.
Life Goes On, I once got back together with an assclown that proclaimed he was a new man and then promptly ditched me in a highly douchey manner for the 800th time. After this ditching, he was still proclaiming that he was a new man. It was like, “I’m totally a great guy now, but you’ll never be on the receiving end of it. None of this is my fault anyway because I have to ‘find myself’. How dare you not understand that my grand self-actualization journey somehow involved hunting you down, telling many a falsehood and then dropping you like a hot rock?!”
They’ll never get it, so just block his ass. You’ve got better things to do than be a text punching bag!
HSN
Hang in there! Your experience is not unique. I too have been through a similar situation including depression (not caused by xAC but made infinately worse by his maltreatment of me), feeling suicidal, having a nervous breakdown (never hospitalised but came close), & ending up in such poor health that I haven’t worked for 18 mths & facing a future on disability at least for a couple of years, whilst I rebuild my health & life. My xAC also hooked up w someone else almost immediately & is with her now. Here’s how I see it though. GOOD! IF THAT MEANS HE NEVER CONTACTS ME AGAIN I’M ECSTATIC!!! The damage these men are capable of causing is astounding. Don’t give him the satisfaction of taking anything more from you than he already has. You deserve better! Hugs. T x
Beth D – yep I’ve been curious and have taken a call when I shouldn’t have. Either I end up re-hurt, or my usually calm self says something off the cuff which happened last time because the guy broke up with me in an unkind way. There is strength and healing in NC. No good comes from talking before you’re ready. I am however talking to my ex EUM after 10 months NC. (Just occasional e mail snippets – but very different once healed.
I am slowly recovering from a 5 yr on/off relationship with a MM with help from the wisdom of the BR ladies and support of wonderful real life friends. Although I have cut off all the means of MM contacting me, we live in a small town so I do bump into him now and again. He tries every trick in the book to manipulate me back into an affair. I know I’m moving on because 6 months ago his words would have sent me into a tailspin, now I’m able to see his efforts for what they really are. I still hurt but its getting better!!
One of the things that has helped me is joining a number of Meet – Up groups in my town ( kerry mentioned these above). I have met some really super, friendly, kind people and am really enjoying the activities we do – walking, cinema and theatre. I have come across one or two people however who set off alarm bells with their behaviour but I recognise them quickly and limit my contact with them (both male and female). Thanks to BR for helping me in my journey. xx
Tried to post. Can relate. Met a guy promised a second date. Never heard from him again. Another did the same thing, then he is bragging about his “new love of his life” on the site we met. Yuck.
The guy I’ve been seeing was hot at first, now has turned cold for no reason. Haven’t seen him in weeks and asked to see him. Been visiting my nan in hospital and you know how depressing hospitals are. I said it would’ve been better if I could see him sometime, needed cheering up. He said maybe not. I said why would you even say that? No answers. He kept complaining that no one understands him. I said how can I if you don’t explain anything? Just kept comlaining and rambling. Sent me weird poetry but refused to give me an answer when we would see each other. I said is this a joke? Stop wasting my time. He said that’s the most insulting thing anyone’s ever said to me. I was like WTF? Yet my jerk of an ex who lies and treats people like garbage isn’t single.
fedup-
sorry about your nan. the book “the rules” got 2 things right:
1- don’t chase men – it is demeaning to us and pointless, as it only flatters them temporarily – if no one is chasing you at the moment, just love yourself, someone will show up soon
2- don’t try to change somebody – the guy with the poem sounds jerky, and is jerking you around. stop participating with and seeking him – its only making you feel like crap – and its not getting you anywhere, he’s manipulating you. that offended act is clllllassic.
and, here’s one bit of my philosophy (about your jerk of an ex): if BR shows anything not so great about the human condition, its that any asshole can find a woman who doesn’t value herself enough to give him way more than the time of day.
to (sorry) use you as (sorry) an illustration – you don’t want to be alone, understandably, when you’re visiting your nan in hospital. my heart completely goes out to you, that’s absolutely awful and of course you don’t want to be alone. but (sorry) what do you do? do you (sorry) find someone who actually cares about you to come take care of you? no (sorry). you call up some jerkoff who not only isn’t empa/sympathizing, he’s messing you around. and you (sorry) *volunteered* for it. this is not self loving and not taking proper care of yourself . its expecting someone who has *already turned cold on you* to spontaneously combust into the person you need – when you’re in dire need, no less. so you just dig the hole you’re in deeper.
why do we do this to ourselves? fedup – love yourself. comfort yourself. and then call up someone you TRUST, who has proven themselves to you, for more comfort.
and, again, i’m sorry about your nan.
fedup
Yep, don’t chase em. When they disappear let them stay disappeared. The red flag isn’t raised when they’re blowing cold, it’s before that. It’s when they blow hot. Don’t fall for that – the compliments, the attention, the charm, they just roll that stuff out. It doesn’t mean anything.
EU men will never ever help you out when you need emotional support (unless they are male Florences). Save yourself the disappointment of asking them. And if they do help you, you very well may never hear the last of it.
What may need to be addressed here isn’t HIM (you can’t change another person, otherwise we could all go about changing everyone and that would be a strange world), but the fact that you have no support system. Start with friends who seem trustworthy and open up more with them. If there is no-one, think about how you choose your friends.
I see a lot of loneliness from many who comment here. Loneliness can only be exacerbated by chasing after unsuitable men. Do more at church, do more in the community, join meet up, take a winetasting course, take a dance class. Anything. You may not meet a man, you may not make friends but I can tell you all for nothing – you won’t meet a man and you won’t make friends by sitting on the sofa bemoaning your fate. And I’m not having a go at you, I did it myself for years!
We all have to make an effort. Chasing after men who have gone is entirely the wrong kind of effort. And in its twisted way, it’s actually quite low effort and low risk because, deep down, don’t we know that he’s not going to turn up with the goods. We don’t have to risk anything, we don’t have to reciprocate, we just have to be disappointed and feel not good enough.
And comparing yourself constantly to your ex is only fuelling your “I’m not good enough” beliefs. Comparing yourself to anyone will do that to you.
fedup – just to follow up on cc’s point, because she picked up on the same bit I did when I read your post – I also tried, unsuccessfully, to draw out my exAC’s compassionate side by reaching out to him in times of (exaggerated) need.
He knew what was expected of him and he half-heartedly said things that he thought were what he was supposed to say, though they didn’t really comfort me because he didn’t mean them. He didn’t in fact say what was suited to the situation, he just brought out some platitudes. He of course would have been outraged had anyone suggested he wasn’t sincere.
I remember specifically turning to him when my cousin was in a coma. You know, I actually wasn’t that shaken by my cousin’s situation, but I actually drummed up extra sadness to validate crying to him. Then I got the weak victory of getting him to come over to my house and getting a hug while I put my head on his shoulder. I too would have been outraged had anyone suggested I wasn’t sincere.
I had a wicked pattern of reaching out to unavailable men, which in my case had me turn into someone who got much more distraught over things than necessary. I had become that way trying desperately to get the compassion and embrace that I wanted/needed.
When I read your comment, I thought, I bet FedUp unconsciously didn’t really need THAT much cheering up over her nan; but she probably knew (unconsciously) that unless she had a pressing reason to ask him over, the guy wouldn’t come.
I have been down that road; it leads to histrionics and empty victories.
I have since drastically reduced how upset I get over things, and guess what, these guys still have nothing to offer, no empathy, they still don’t reach out or appreciate me. But I now have way less pain in my life, because I now don’t expect empathy from EU people. And when I do genuinely need support, I wouldn’t hurt myself by putting my vulnerable self in an EU’s hands.
Also, the emotionally available people have noticed that I have stopped overreacting, and so they are not backing away from me as they once did, and I have closer relationships with healthier people.
yeah,
fedup, in addition to what i wrote below (and grace and elle), what magnolia is saying is dead on, and its all about drama reduction. when we have to turn ourselves inside out to get a reaction, not only are we keeping ourselves from how we really feel, we are seeking a reaction that is not worth happening. we’re riding the drama train, and the more you stoke that engine, the faster it goes.
it takes a lot of bravery to sit, as mags suggests, in how you really feel. i bet it was terrifying for her (mags, don’t let me put words in your mouth) when she started being more honest with herself and let herself feel her feelings, however big or small. but then, when you’re more emotionally available, you can take better care of yourself, and you attract other EA people, not EUs who are full of bluster and shit. THEN you can form real relationiships with the kinds of people who don’t break promises.
but again….it starts with you. truly.
CC, Grace & Magnolia – you mention lack of emotional support/empathy as a characteristic of EU men and I suddenly realised that’s what I’ve been waiting for since losing my baby 4 months ago. His response was cruel (e.g. he didn’t want his name mentioned at the baby’s service, had no interest in naming the baby and then told me he did not like the name I chose) and made my grief so much worse. I carried on seeing him anyway and since then I’ve been chasing a reaction/feeling from him and waiting for him to acknowledge that my baby meant something. Four months later I’m depressed, feel physically unwell and my life has come to a standstill. After discovering this site I now realise it’s not going to happen. Painful as it is to accept he just doesn’t care. As cc so clearly says it’s time to stop turning myself inside out to get a reaction. Time to take care of myself. I’m still new here, but learning something different every day. Thanks all xx
lilly-
please accept my deepest condolences for your terrible loss. to have to go through that with your baby’s father denying the entire thing is just beyond cruelty.
i can’t imagine how this must have been for you. but, and i mean this very gently, while a father should acknowledge his child, it is self-evident that your baby meant something completely profound and important and you don’t need the AC to acknowledge this to make it true. it IS true. very, very true.
i am very glad for you that you are disconnecting from the AC and his importance, which, aside from giving you the precious angel you lost, is practically nil. he barely qualifies as human. i am so glad for you that you are ready to nurture yourself and move on.
i’ve never lost a child, but i have grievously lost. i promise you, it gets better. you will not always feel like this. i. promise. give yourself whatever time you need to grieve, and stay on your own side. you’ve already taken that first important step. just keep going.
massive hugs.
CC –
Thank you so much. Your words “it is self-evident that your baby meant something completely profound and important and you don’t need the AC to acknowledge this to make it true” made me cry, but in a good way. I need to cry. I’ve been holding it all in for far too long. Pretending his behaviour is ok when it isn’t, making excuses for him, etc, etc. I’m sorry that you’ve had to go through pain too. That you are recovering from your own experience gives me hope that I will too. Thanks again xx
…lilia…i cried when i wrote it…good tears all around.
good for you, honey. its going to be ok. just crack that south american whip of indifference. …i LOVE that…
Yeah, cc, it was more the shame of having to admit that “it wasn’t that bad” and the helpless feeling of realizing I didn’t know any other way to get close to men / to people.
I iz *still* workin on all dat shit.
This has been really interesting to read – thanks magnolia
The point of my life where I was at my nadir of letting-myself-be-messed-around was also one of the worst points of my life anyway. As well as being unplannedly pregnant, I lost two grandparents (one, with whom I was very close, just before I got pregnant), there was a lot of illness in my family, work was tough, I was having a difficult time with a close friend and the cat was terminally ill.
I used that as justification for what I was doing – “I’m having a really hard time! It’s not fair! People should be nice to me… HE should be nice to me” but actually it was just stupid. Like being mugged in the street and then running, bruised, beaten and broke, to another mugger and expecting them to take care of me and lend me cash instead of nicking off with my watch and shoes.
I think that the drama element was important as well – and it worked in reverse, in the end, because I ended up deliberately MAKING my life more difficult in various ways to FORCE him to be compassionate. Like, I stopped spending time with friends so that I could say “I can’t face being around people” in the hope that that’d jolt him into some semblance of care. Nope. Nooooope.
(((fedup))) I’m sorry that you’re having such a crappy time – and the advice on here IS really good, I don’t think that I can add to it. All I’d suggest is choosing ONE nice or creative or interesting or new thing to do (it doesn’t have to be massive, I started painting my nails whilst watching an episode of Coronation Street) and aiming to make it into a habit or a ritual that you do every night. Do it just for yourself, no-one else, and try not to think too much while you’re doing it. Just try to enjoy whatever it is.
FedUp,
Don’t give this guy any more time. You haven’t seen him in weeks, his response to wanting to see him is “maybe not” and he has not responded to anything else about meeting up. He has not shown you basic respect and courtesy, nor any concern for your situation with your Nan. There is nothing redeeming here. The rambling responses and poetry makes me think that there is something off with him mentally. Flush flush flush.
I used to do the over think thing completely. id get paraniod and hyper sensitive to every situation around me , thinking my friends where hurting me as well. But since i came across this site , it has really help i can see outside myself and its helping to stop the patterns. i left a unhappy marraige after having a affair that went wrong. I went back to marraige and it failed bc i continued contact with my mm , in the end i left and have been living on my own for over a year, i feel guilt for my husbandso i still have in my life more than i should , it breaks my heart we get on better now we apart than together , and admittedly we still both in limbo land. i still dally with mm , i caught him out recently playing with a ow and bc of the strength this site gave me i basically said goodbye which after 4 odd years shocked him that doormat was walking, he stepped up his texting and taking me places , ive spent more time in his company in last couple of months than ever before . But ive changed and i feel ive hardened my heart i see him for what he is and i think he knows this , example other week he gave two girls a lift home very innocent but he lied to me , i said you are a terrible fibber and he said i didnt want you thinking owt , i said i know you to well. somthing in me has died and if he walks away tomorrow i doubt id care , this site makes me see it for what it is , you cant control people and situations and i will not let my feelings be at the mercy of someone eles . i am wary of anyone i meet in future ill be wary of red flags and wont rush in but thanks to this site i will watch the man i yet to meet and watch myself as i have faults as well. strentgh to you all.xx
Reading our many stories is (today) disheartening. It seems to me tht AC’s find women with low self esteem to be involved with at the drop of a hat, thereby enjoying all the fringe benefits of a r’ship (even though their partners, presumably, suffer). On the other hand there’s us, decent honest people with integrity, who have something real to offer who are left on the sidelines, often single for years at a time, whilst we sort ourselves out or because we refuse to settle for an AC. I’m old enough to know that life is not fair, but this situation, feels like a particularly cruel irony. Despite knowing we ARE ‘good enough’, it’s not surprising that many of us are left scratching our heads with confusion.
Teachable,
If we had valued ourselves, we would never have gotten involved with this type to begin with. Until you recognize your part in scenario (EUW), you will continue to attract EUMs.
Hi Fed up
That guy is a tosser. Flush him. AC’s & EUM’s reveal their true colors in times of other ppls need by promptly disappearing or not being available for support. My xAC left me in the lurch following a heart attack & deliberately exacerbated my poor health b.cuz he just didn’t give a hoot. He also left me stranded in my broken down car late at night on a deserted road knowing a suspicious male was in the vicinity & that I was terrified of being attacked. The latter incident came to mind as I drove down that rd tonight. My lack of self respect in having anything to do with him after that (unbelievably – on the offering of yet another B.S ‘my ph battery died excuse – I did) made me cringe. I am one who recently broke NC by sending a couple of emails. I’m just praying he never responds or that if or when he eventually does I have the strength to maintain NC. As the scorpion / frog take says, it’s just their nature. Yuk.
I love this site by the way! and sorry for all the typos.
Broadsided & Beth: thanks for sharing. My recent breaking of NC by sending two emails was also triggered by curiosity. I have not spoken with xAC since learning that (unbeknownst to me), he’d been in a relationship with someone else at the same time he was involved with me. Following numerous emails from me at the time expressing my furiousness at having been willfully deceived (& mistreated to the enth degree which in light of the truth suddenly made a ton of sense) & me then initiating NC, he emailed me a few months back wanting to ‘talk’. I declined to do so knowing that only more lies would be told & being well & truely over his dishonesty already. Fast forward a few months & in a moment of weakness I emailed saying if ever he found himself single (as he is still with the other woman) I was curious to know why he’d attempted to contact me. I realised though that I will never be able to believe a word that he says & so emailed one last time to explain that & request no further contact (which I intend to stick to myself also). The saying that curiosity killed the cat, is very true. I already know everything I need to know about my xAC & have no desire whatsoever to have him back in my life in any shape or form, ever again. I glad you’re similarly clear about the danger of succumbing to ‘curiosity’. Here’s one thing I’m not curious about: leopards don’t change their spots & I’m now wearing Eu Du Self Respect! All the best. T 🙂
Sunshine
re AC’s are indiscriminate about who they get involved with.
Ouch but SOOO true! It hurts knowing my xAC didn’t care less about me, let alone love me. I was just a convenient place for him to escape to on interstate trips to visit his family & being his ex frm 20 yrs ago, what a warm fuzzy & comfortable landing I was! Contrary to my thinking at the time he’d returned because he actually cared – nothing could have been further from the truth. In hindsight I feel quite foolish but thankfully this is one mistake I wont be repeating!!!
He was pretty nice to me while we were together, but we weren’t a fit. He did a shitty, shitty, job of breaking up with me. After living together for two years, he got a job offer in another state and decided to move back to where he came from. I was supposed to follow after he got everything situated. Well after he was gone a month, I grew a pair and told him I wasn’t uprooting and moving to be his girlfriend (we had to get married), he freaked out and then he basically faded away until I finally figured it out. I got tired of chasing him by phone and after not hearing from him at all in over a week, I guess I broke up with him by changing my relationship status on FB …not publicly, just to my few friends that I wanted to know ..including him, I know it’s juvenile, but I didn’t want him to think I was ok with the way things were. I wasn’t going to call him up one last time to tell him I’m not talking to him anymore. He acknowledged the breakup by making a “good guy” comment on the status change but no phone call or even an email. I slept in the same bed as this man for 700+ days in a row! I still can’t believe how it ended. But I’m glad I didn’t change my life for him!
So now it’s a little over a month since the breakup. This Saturday was 31 days NC and also my birthday and I went all day WITHOUT thinking he would contact me.
I get a text as I was going to bed a little after midnight, (from a phone number, not a name because I deleted his contact info) “Happy Birthday Nikki.”
I bawled my eyes out, waited until the next day and replied “thanks”.
I guess my story is not really related to this theme of I’m not good enough other than I think his lifestyle was more important to him than I was.
Thats all. I’m just sad.
Thanks CC. Just weird it has taken this long to turn cold already. This guy really lied through his ass and hasn’t delivered on any of his promises. Why would someone do that? I’m sure Natalie said to me once to ask women for advice who have successful relationships. But the women I do know didn’t help anyway. Why is it too much to ask for just to meet someone actually non AC? Should I get the rules?
fedup-
no, don’t get ‘the rules’, they’re a bit twisted and you need to start, imho, in a different place. if you need guidelines, search BR for natalie’s.
but grace, above, and elle, below, have very good points, the same point. honey, you need to start with you. this is not bad news, its good news.
realize that you’re duplicating the abandoning dynamic of your abusive father and father-enabling mother with men – you’re trying to right the wrongs of the past with present day ACs. please believe me – this will never work. i would suggest going back to therapy, but find a therapist, i’d suggest an older woman, whom you can really, really trust. you need to work out some stuff, and learn to love and trust yourself, before you can separate the ACs from the non-ACs. right now, you’re like a moth to the AC flame because you’re not conscious of your motivations. you don’t even know you’re doing it. you need to become aware of all these things. and then you need to change them.
again, this is NOT a judgment. i used to BE you. but i worked on myself, i made an affirmative choice to work toward consciousness and emotional health, and i still have stuff to work out, but i’ve come soooooooooooooooooo far.
so, try to stop resisting this. its really the only way. to keep resisting is to prolong your pain and delay your healing. you cannot even imagine how much better you can feel. but the answer lies with you, within you, not with men or outside of you. you must find the proper guide to lead you out of this maze.
I completely agree with CC and want to add that The Rules got me involved with EUmen in the first place. It´s all about letting them lead in the relationship, being a bit hard to get so they´ll chase you – and you have to keep aloof all the time. Now I understand that this silly tactic was what kept me so long in a EU fantasy relationship; for him it was extremely convenient because he didn´t have to take any responsibility and he could just contact me whenever he felt like it (the book says NEVER to contact a guy yourself but to be polite whenever he does).
Also, as a typical EUM, he would blow hot and cold all the time, so when he was “hot” I figured it was because I had been indifferent, non demanding, etc – aka when I completely erased my own feelings and needs and behaved like a EUW myself.
For a long time I believed I was doing things right, but meanwhile I was so stressed out hiding my real emotions that I ended up taking medication for anxiety and depression. So yeah – just read BR and throw those Rules in the dustbin!
Tail between my legs- let me tell you I have really been humbled by my own insecurities over the past few days…and it is solely because of this blog and all of you on it. After my “rockstar heel” posts yesterday, I awoke to messages on FB and mms messages to my hotmail. I caved, unblocked, and we texted today until he called me. Long and short, he gave me mealy-mouthed answers/comments on the phone tonight. I told him that making contact with him was worse than the last two weeks of NC- and that it was plain to see he was complacent because he had a safe life and didn’t need to choose me because of the risks I represented. However, I told him I was complacent too because I chose the illusion of a love affair with someone that would never ask me to take true risks that would result in happinness. Took responsibility for my perpetuation and told him I deserved better. I asked him (first time I’ve asked rather than just go black) to respect me and leave me alone. I blocked him from everything and deleted every email/text.
I am disappointed with myself but I feel like this was a huge lesson for me. I’m such a “short term” focus peron….
It’s just the craving for the short term high. If you see it for what it is and also what the crappy outcome will be you will stop doing it. Don’t feel too bad, we’ve all done it! Onwards and upwards!
Why does this shite keep happening to me?
I am sick to death with being screwed over for no reason. Tried therapy and that didn’t work.
FedUp, There are some excellent comments in the replies above, and I know Natalie has given you some really generous advice over the past little while. Like all of us, things keep happening because you keep letting them happen to you. I hate to say this, but at high school (in those brutal first few years), the two or three girls who were always worried about whether everyone liked them, and hurt all the time, and asking for what everything meant, ended up being the most likely to be teased and shunned in social situations. Over time these girls, thankfully, got better friends, trusted the right people (instead of seeking the approval and validation from the pretty set), embraced their quirky sides and focused on interesting hobbies. It seems to have turned out well for them – they have good jobs, nice friends, married etc . I am writing this shyly as it seems a little cheap, but I think there’s something in it for you, FedUp. I think (and this is a tentative theory) that this stuff keeps happening to you because you’re allowing it to: you’re continually interested in the attention of unsuitable, shallow people, you don’t seem to have enough of a support base elsewhere (as Grace said) and you don’t seem to be focusing enough on your own talents, interests and strengths (and giving to other people/causes, not shady men). Someone said in a post the other day: thank yourself for opening the door for yourself, to build a habit that you’d expect nothing less from someone else. Please, please try to treat and talk to yourself like the most precious, worthwhile person you know. I have been on BR for a while, and I feel like there’s a part of you that doesn’t want this to be illuminated for you, like you’re more comfortable with the version that you’re being tossed about by cruel and unknowable seas, without an raft or way to land. From what I can tell of your situation, and what I know from my own experiences, that’s just not true.
Excellent post. I think people’s belief about rejection ties into beliefs about gender roles and relationships as a whole. A lot of people see being in a relationship as a necessity like having a job, and take whatever they can get, the way you’d take whatever job you can get because you need the money. They expect other people to be of the same mentality, so when someone rejects them they think “Wow, there must be something *incredibly* wrong with me.” As women we’re also surrounded by the generalised idea that men will go out with anything that walks for the sake of regular sex, or the social status of having a girlfriend, and it takes a certain maturity to realise it’s not actually true of everyone.
I’ve found it difficult to make friends ever since my ex turned everyone against me and lied and told everyone I was a pyscho. It was just easier not to be betrayed by anyone after that. I didn’t want to feel that level of betrayal again.
fedup, my darling-
as someone who came from a family background similar to yours, i’m here to tell you: you will stop feeling like a victim when you stop seeing yourself as a victim.
were you horribly victimized? absolutely. do you need to continue to feel that way, to place your value in other people’s hands, to accept their judgments of you, to feel weak, powerless, guarded, cowed, afraid? NO!!! in fact you must not.
you must take action. there is TONS of wonderful advice for you here on BR. you must start taking it. you must ACT on your own behalf.
hie thee to a therapist, a good one. find, as grace suggested, a social/church/activity group in which you truly have an interest and in which you truly feel safe. CHANGE things. do not just sit there and expect them to change for you. cuz they won’t.
and the ex and those people who think you’re a psycho? tell them to go eff themselves.
the good thing about a blank slate is that you can make it whatever you want. but you need to understand that you are in a position of choice. and have standards for what you will and won’t accept, even from yourself.
now, go, put those standards in place, take those actions. huppy hup. no more sad sack. go on, now. go!
Fed up etc.,
I would also second what Elle has said above; I think you asking ‘why does this keep happening to me?’ is the thing you really need to get to the bottom of.
However I mainly wanted to respond to some posts I’m reading here tonight about what was “said” to “him” via email/text and all what “he” said back (or didn’t say back) via more emails and text. I want to say to these ladies that trying to sort out your relationshit issues, breaking NC or telling him all about himself or all about you and your feelings by email and/or text is the same as spraying yourself all over with Eau de I’m Not Good Enough. And he can smell it from miles off – even if you can’t!
I can’t help but notice that many of us write about what we “said” to him, when actually we didn’t “say” anything to him. We emailed or we texted.
In my entrenched relationshit with an EUM I can say that 98% of the “important” things I wanted to “say” to him I “said” by email, then latterly by text. When I broke NC, for example, I did it by text/email. Here’s the thing: Thanks to BR (and to Grace particularly) it finally hit me that if my stuff (or his stuff) was so important it would be worth more than a measly text or an email.
Here’s how far I’ve come in shedding my Eau de I’m Not Good Enough: 1) I’m worth more than running (or ending) my relationships (or breaking NC!) by email or text. 2) If the only way I can get him to ‘listen’ is by sending him an email or text then he’s NOT listening anyway and so he may as well enjoy my silence! 3) If all he can muster is an email or text then whatever he has to say in it is NOT important enough for me to pay any attention to (and that works both ways!).
And so… I am now at the point where the mere thought of sending him an email or text makes me go, ‘Aye, that’ll be effing right!’
Thanks to BR I see that means of (faux) communication with him as wholly devaluing of me and of what I should be able to expect from a relationship – and from myself!
The point I’m making in relation to Nat’s post is: please ladies, dump the texting and emailing. Ban it, and see what you’re really left with. Our insistence on emailing and texting is only adding to our sense of not being good enough. Insist on more from him and, more crucially, insist on more from *yourself*.
As Grace said somewhere here…
Fearless
Whilst I agree breaking NC is rarely wise those whose efforts at this have been serious, but who ‘slip’ often, no longer have ph numbers / addresses or any other details on hand to facilitate the breaking of NC. This is why it tends to occur by email (as this is the one thing people rarely change for business reasons). If I’d KNOWN my xAC’s address I’d have been on his doorstep in a flash paying him out TO HIS FACE about the B.S he put me through. I’m glad I don’t know it though & am very happy to be doing my best to move on. Just sayin…
teachable and readers,
I hear you. I get that this does not apply to Teachable, but I also think that the general picture is that even when we have his address (which is five minutes drive away from our own house!), have his workplace address, have his personal line phone number at work, have a phone book with his number in it, have his landline phone number, have his mobile phone number, have his holiday home address, we even we go to the same gym (where we see him on the running machine every week… err, that one does not apply to me!), even when we work in the same office building, even when we catch the same bus home from work, even when we can communicate with him via telepathy – most of us still tend to break NC using email or texting cos it’s safer/non-committal/distant/controllable… and the rest.
Aside from all of that, the point I was making originally was not about what lines of communication we can use when we “must” break NC but that, regardless of all of all of the above, sending him emails and texts whether *in* the relationshit or *out* of it is wholly devaluing – it’s same as spraying eau de I’m not good enough perfume. It only feels good for about five minutes! Then we wish we had thought more of ourselves and said it with silence. But I get that we kinda know that already – was just saying.
teachable and other readers,
I totally understand what your saying. When we fall off the NC wagon we will take any means available to communicate with him (or tell him all about himself). My observation/my point (and I include myself!) is that when we really understand that trying to control, run or “end” a relationship mainly by emailing and text messaging is the same as sending him great whiffs of Eau De I’m not Good Enough, and what we imagine to be meaningful communication or effort is in fact just pissing into the wind.
Same goes for when the bulk of his communication is by email and txt – we should be smelling his Eau De He’s Not Good Enough and stepping away from the phone/computer, yet many of us have/do attach value and investment in this communication (whether it’s used by him or by ourselves).
I think ACs/EUMs already understand that email and texting is a handy avoidance tactic – on both parts. They use it because they already know they have nothing of any real value or meaning to bring to the table and hope that we might be the woman who mistakes it for genuine intentions and real effort (I was that woman!).
If all you’ve got is his email address then that is reason enough not to be using it. If we do use it he then knows that we’re on ‘desperation’ time and this illustrates my point about not sending him any more whiffs of the ‘I’m not good enough’ perfume.
I’m not trying to lecture anyone here – just trying to explain and share what now happily comes to me with total clarity – that emailing and texting him only perpetuating and re-affirms an ‘I’m not good enough’ mentality. When we stop doing it, we begin see that we are too bloody good for it.
fearless
absolutely.
It occurred to me a couple of times when I was waiting for a text – I’M BETTER THAN THIS!
Ladies and gentlemen, you are worth the time and effort it takes to book a restaurant, walk into town for lunch, or meet for coffee. Or even catch a plane. That’s what people do. And if you’re in anything like a mutual relationship – you don’t have to wait to be asked. You can suggest it. If you don’t, maybe it’s because you know he’d prefer to text you instead.
fearless, grace (if you’re still reading this thread)-
on the heels of all this procedural training, i’m now being a bit confused by a guy, with whom i’ve had 1 (lovely) date, who asked me for the second date immediately after the first, but then has communicated with me exclusively by (long, expressive) texts. he did secure date 2 for saturday night before noon today (by wednesday for saturday, classic gentleman respect for my time) but it was all by (again, flowing, expressive) text. he’s planning the date, making reservations, etc. and he may call me between now and saturday, but…
so…what do i do? see how it goes, and at some point, if we get to date 3 or 4, say, hey, what’s up with the texting? or do i say something on saturday night (date 2), assuming he doesn’t call me between now and then?
phone him back cc, next time he texts, phone and say ; it takes such a long time to type out, might as well have a nice conversation, it`s so much nicer and more personal, don`t you think? See what he does afterwards, and you will hear if he is comfortable with being called.Grace is right, if it is going to be a mutual relationship he won`t mind you suggesting and will be more than happy to go with it. If he likes to set the pace and control on his terms he`ll try to stick to text like glue.
cc
Texting isn’t the issue per se but do you feel he is hiding behind it and are you?
I take snowboard’s point. I enjoy texting,I’m good with the written word, it’s convenient, cheap (free) and gives me time to think BUT I also don’t want it to take over. There’s something about the immediacy of a phone call that puts people “on the spot” and that’s not a bad thing! For me, one of my long running issues is that I need to be spontaneous and say what I think in the moment. It’s not about shooting my mouth of, it’s about living in the present and handling whatever comes my way.
For what it’s worth, the excrush texts me AND phones me. He can talk on the phone for hours. He phones his friends and family all over the world. It’s about feeling good enough to take up someone’s time, to get their attention. I used to be able to do that but these days I am not so willing to call people. At the heart of it I’m afraid to. I worry about them not picking up, being an inconvenience or saying the wrong thing. I don’t like the fact that I can’t control how the conversation will go. The first time the excrush called me I was actually frightened!
I know it’s just texts but it’s so tempting to use it in place of proper communication because a simple phone call is too risky.
Rather than raise it as an issue, why not just call him? Next time he starts sending convoluted texts call and say “Hi, I thought it would be quicker to call!”.
sushi, grace,
thanks, guys. i wasn’t really hesitating to call him mid-text-flurry, its more that the whole thing is so new, not even two dates yet, and he was texting me at somewhat odd times, rather than calling me right smack in the middle of the evening. had he been texting me in the middle of the evening, i might have done just what you suggested.
as i write this, i guess i realize its also the timing of his texting and his NOT calling that has me wondering. because, no, i don’t need to hide behind texts, but my wondering if HE is is what is making me hesitate.
anyway…thanks for your help!!
Hey cc:
There’s a lot of variation “out there” in how people view texting — I’ve had to tell some of my female friends that I don’t “do” texts well; and I’ve had to explain the same thing to suitors.
The key here I think will be his reaction when you tell him that you’re not into texting. Is he understanding of your preference? Does he modify his behavior going forward? He may just need a little guidance to do right by you.
If he continues to try to manage you by text, then that will be a different matter. You’re still in the Discovery Phase, as Nat puts it, so this is something you will only discover with a bit more time.
Have fun on your date — I hope it is lovely!
tea cozy and everybody-
yes, you’re right. i think i was (what the hell am i so scared of) worried about saying something, of asking for what i want…
…then tonight he called – “just wanted to hear your voice”…
all together now: aaaaaaawwww!
siiiiiiigh. i gotta chill the hell out. i don’t deserve to treat myself so poorly as to get worked up over this stuff, as if its a reflection on me or as if i made anyone do a certain thing, behave in a certain way. its so…effed up, so narcissistically wounded. y’know i read natalie’s posts and it all makes sense and then i fall apart under pressure.
thanks for the advice, it is much appreciated. i know it seems like a relatively little thing, but you all really helped.
@cc-
Everything you have described here sounds quite sweet, and I wouldn’t worry about the texting. I know this issue is a big deal to many people on this site, but the idea of texting as a problem in itself has never really struck much of a chord with me. I actually PREFER to be asked out (in the early stages) by text. When the guy does it by phone, I don’t have enough time to do all the mental checks I need to do to figure out if this is a good situation: (is he giving me enough advance notice?, is he not moving too fast from the previous date?, is he suggesting something ‘nice’ to do together so we can get to know one another or does he just want me to come over to his house for easy sex?, etc.) Instead, the automatic “Nice Girl” in me immediately kicks in and says, “Yes,” without thinking it through. With a text, I can contemplate before responding. And fortunately, guys – good and bad alike – almost always ask me out by text or email.
Here is an example of a bad situation I had with a texter: after our first date, he texted me non-stop, seemingly because he was bored, telling me how much he liked me, how he had told his little sister how highly he thought of me, etc. etc. etc. Then twice he said, “Do you want to go get ice cream?,” “Do you want to go get lunch?” (as in RIGHT THEN). So I would decline. And then two other times, when we had formed plans in advance, he cancelled at the last minute the first time, and then just never got in touch with me the second time. When he sent me a text the following day, begging me to give him another chance, I didn’t respond.
I guess what I am saying is that, to me, the red flag wasn’t the fact he was communicating via text. It was that he was treating me as a way to pass the time when he was bored, without showing a genuine interest in getting to know me, and in fact disrespecting my time.
snowboard-
aw, thanks for responding, that’s helpful. and yes, the fact that he asked me out by text did give me some extra processing time i wouldn’t have had were we on the phone. i even went back and forth with him a couple times before i actually said yes.
i guess the thing is – i’m so trained to believe that, if a guy is not calling a girl, then he doesn’t really like her. talking on the phone advances a … ok, let’s not call it a “relationship”, its only 1.5 dates … but it moves things along. so maybe he’s keep the parking brake on. or maybe he thinks i prefer texting. or maybe he’s going to turn this into high class dinner + booty – which i think is my big fear, but y’know what? i don’t have to “fear” it. if it turns out that all he wants is booty, even if he’s trying to be able to still consider himself a gentleman because he paid for dinner, then i can flush him (or decide to have opportunistic sex, if i choose, and then flush him). i can trust myself to make decisions as information presents itself.
….but i gotta tell ya, i can’t help but think that it doesn’t mean nothing that he’s not calling me. …what i really have to do is notice it…and then STOP ANALYZING!!!
…dating is hard. and i’m an over-analyzer.
thanks again, snowboard.
xoxoxoxoxox
Yes Grace, same here – ‘I’m better than this!’ occurred to me, many, many times. BR – and you! – helped me to stop continuing to persuade myself that it didn’t matter/wasn’t an issue/he didn’t mean anything by it/he’s just busy/he doesn’t like a fuss/he doesn’t like to chat on the phone etc.. but, of course, I secretly knew that it did matter – a lot!/it was an issue/he sure did mean something by it!/he wasn’t that busy!/he didn’t want the fuss of a real relationship/and he actually did call me on the phone when he had a problem he wanted to talk about with me (and I was never too busy. Ugh.)
“If you don’t, maybe it’s because you know he’d prefer to text you instead.”
Ha! – yep.
I recently stopped seeing a guy because he started texting me
‘hi nk’ ??????
I phoned him after replying with ‘hi toby’ and he text back saying ‘why are you calling?’
urgh.
NK
Lol!! A perfect illustration of the point.
I don’t disagree w anything in yr last post Runnergirl. What I was pointing out was that ppl who break NC by email are not neccessarily ALL emotionally unavailable. I’m not for example.Rather, in my case, xAC has moved house since we split up & changed his contact number also due to leaving his previous employment which used to pay for his old phone (& he has left that job also since we split). In addition, I have changed both my mobile & home phone numbers. He emailed me his new contact number a few months back & wanted me to call him for a ‘closure conversation’ (as we didn’t have this when I ended things with him months prior to that & he knew I would not be willing to give him my new number so he could call me). I declined to keep his new number or to call at the time. In addition, he can’t easily just come to see me or vice versa as he lives interstate & in setting the bounderies of NC, because I have not moved, I made it absolutely clear that he is not to come to my house (which he has respected). Thus, sometimes these things are simply a matter of circumstance rather than of ppl being EU. Just saying… 🙂
I’m soory. That last post was meant to be addressed to fearless.
Otherwise, Allison, I respect completely your right to describe yourself & your own experiences as you see fit, however, as a complete stranger to me please do not presume what I am or am not. For the record I completely disagree with your statement & rather posit, that sometimes, ‘it’ happens & can & indeed does, happen to anyone.
That is to say, I am NOT emotionally unavailable & neither do I place any value whatsoever on the opinion of anyone who presumes to know me better than I know myself!
Love this quote: “God grant me the ability to see in myself what I see in others, courage to change what I don’t like, and patience for those who are not ready to receive the gift of a mirror,”
I believe this site is a “mirror”, so to speak, and we are all here to see our true reflections. Sometimes we have our strongest reactions when we don’t like what we see.
LoJ
And other times we’ve done many years of therapy & simply know ourselves very well & are able to assert our own realities. (& to suggest tht a stranger on the internet who knows almost nothing about us knows us better than we know ourselves is just rediculous) lol 😉
I can’t speak for Allison, but what I post is to maybe help, definitely out of care and because of seeing a similarity with another reader. Not to offend. Good luck on your journey.
This ties in with the topic somewhat: currently reading “Why everyone is a hypocrite” by Robert Kurzban, he is talking about our “modular minds” where various “modules” do not always know/agree with each other, that’s why we are all prone to doing what we profess we’d never do, for example. Interesting! Now I’m at the part where he is talking about self-esteem: research finds self-esteem is not the cause of anything. “Self-esteem is a kind of dead-end street, yeah, you can get there, but it doesn’t get you any further than that.” Interesting, huh!
Natalie,
I started reading Baggage Reclaim months ago after a very difficult break-up with an abusive, two-timing, future-faking assclown who wasn’t worth my time of day. I’ve gobbled up every one of your posts in the past few months, but haven’f felt moved to comment until now. I wanted to share with you how your words of wisdom recently helped me make an important decision regarding my work and professional life. For the past year, I have been employed as a Youth Counselor/social worker at a group home/foster placement in my community. This company has a reputation for being a bad employer in town, but I took the job when I was in a tough spot after college and really needed whatever I could get. After a year on the job, I can well understand why they have a bad rep; they are an abusive employer and have created a climate of fear and mistrust between management and employees. The disorganization is so bad, HR didn’t even call my references until six months after I started when I had already received my benefits package. To top it all off, i work the night shift with a bunch of awful, immature, mean-spirited women. These women are mostly retired and stuck in a dead-end position. I believe they dislike me because I am sweet, polite, deferential, pretty, petite, and goal-oriented. They have made life hell for me all year; they find every opportunity to demean or belittle me, pick on my insecurities, spread gossip and lies behind my back, and a few have even tried to defame my character and get me fired. I put up with this nonsense on the promise that the company promotes from within and I could always transfer to another shift if and when I wanted. (The day shift is more of the same, but at least I would have something productive do.) I recently requested this shift change, as I was coming up on my one year anniversary and felt I could handle more responsibility. (For the record, I am a model employee: show up on time, rarely take sick days, and work hard to go the extra mile, even taking on tasks that others won’t do and feel are beneath them.) I went up the chain of command (which they are big on) and spoke with my supervisor. While initially pleasant and encouraging (to my face, at least) he quickly became evasive, mean, and condescending. He gave me the run-around for weeks, tried to tell me upper management was avoiding his calls…
Freedom
Sounds like you need a new job. I know that’s not always easy. Or maybe just contact upper management yourself. Refuse to be treated this way by your manager and your colleagues. It’s nice to be nice, but in environments such as the one you describe I’d consider being less malleable, less submissive and more assertive (much more). Good luck.
Just saw that it looks like my comment got cut off due to length; any way to recover the second half, or do I just type it up again? 🙂
Absolutely Fearless. And the beauty of this whole process is when we surrender, really surrender, get HONEST with ourselves and cut through our own bull shit, work through the painful true feelings, shame being a biggeee, we can let go and forgive. Ourselves.
The second part of my comment got cut off, but actually, there’s an inspiring end to my story. After my supervisor started manipulating me and made it clear there was no room for advancement for me in his organization, I decided to jump ship. Started quietly sending out my resume, and just when I did that, the right opportunity came along. I read in the paper about a congressional candidate who had just filed to run against a very entrenched politician in our state. I went home, contacted the campaign website, sent in my resume, and a letter explaining who I was and what I wanted. He was not advertising for staff, but I figured it was early enough in the election cycle that he might be hiring. Lo and behold, after a few telephone conferences and an interview, he hired me on as campaign manager. So I am now in charge of running an entire state-wide political campaign. Since that happened and I turned in my notice, my co-workers have *really* backed off and the environment has become much more pleasant to work in. Too bad it’s too little too late. I think they know they have been treating me badly and it’s like they are almost scared of me now (which is too bad, considering I’m still the same sweet person I was before, just with a good job and a title). Anyway, I just wanted to illustrate how you always have options to leave an abusive situation, even though it might not be immediately apparent. You do not have to “seek validation from an unlikely source” as Natalie says. (And, Natalie, I wanted you to know that your wise words are applicable to every area of life, not just dating and relationships!) 🙂
I should add that I am ridiculously over-qualified for the position I now have. I have a four-year college degree, internships in multiple fields, a blue belt in Taekwon-Do, and a solid year’s worth of work experience on my resume. I took the job I have now when I was still stuck in my abusive relationship and feeling, perhaps, the slightest bit unsure of my own value and worth. 🙂 But I ditched the boyfriend and the bad employer and my life is going in a really good direction right now. Also, it isn’t just me my company’s picking on. They have an established pattern of getting rid of all the competent employees and hiring and/or promoting some of the most incompetent yahoos you could imagine. They’ve run several talented people out of town since I’ve been hired on. I think they manipulate a lot of people in to staying because the benefits are to die for and the pay is not bad. But that only goes so far, you know? At the end of the day, I have better things to do than fritter away my time for an organization who won’t give the time of day to my qualifications. I know my own worth and life really is so short.
Could this be the reason men are attracted to me even though I’m not attracted to them? It’s as if I don’t want to come off like I think I’m too good for anyone, so I act like anyone could have me. I don’t mean I sleep around. I mean, if someone asks for my number, I feel rude saying no. If they ask me out, I think who am I to refuse a friendly date? If they want to kiss me, I’ll go along with it once or twice, but that’s as far as it goes. I can be pleasant company for a few hours with anyone, but the physical part is just too gross.
I guess this is about boundaries. Do I not feel I’m good enough to set them where I want them? If I don’t want sex, I’ll say so. But if I don’t want your company, I feel like it’s rude to say that. How do other women negotiate this part of it? When someone says, “Can I have your number?” how do you politely decline, especially when they already know you’re single and looking?
For instance, I went to this singles’ dinner party, and I ended up giving my number to 4 men. The first guy never called, or never left a message, thank God. The second guy I’ve just ignored, but he seems genuinely perplexed. The third guy I went out with once, and have ignored his calls since. And the last guy, I’ve been out with twice, but kissing him was gross, so I’m now ignoring him too! This is ridiculous, not to mention rude, but I think I’m afraid of making them angry.
I shouldn’t have given anyone my number, but I also don’t want to assume they’re asking in any more than a friendly way. I just wonder if this has anything to do with the way I was raised. The worst crime in my family was to have a big head. Thinking too highly of yourself was seriously frowned upon. So maybe now I see turning a guy down as saying I think I’m too good for him? I don’t know, it’s messed up.
Bunny
It IS awkward. There’s a better way to do it – I went to a singles dinner party arranged by an agency. They act as the go-between. If somone is interested in you, they contact you and ask if you want your contact details passed on, and vice versa.
I hesitate to say this as it may block off too many opportunties, but there is no need to be VERY friendly and encouraging if you’re not feeling it. don’t huddle down one-ton-one with someone too soon, or get too close physically. Better to keep mingling and keep it light until you hit it off with someone.
Turning someone down is not about thinking you’re better than them. Not every two people are going to hit it off. if they can’t deal with it, and if you can’t, best to stay out of the dating pool until thicker skins are grown!