If you imagine (actually, many of you don’t even need to do this as you’re living it) that you’re in a relationship/dating a man that appears to be dragging his feet. It could be that you’ve been together for for a few months, a year, or even a few years but you know that he’s ‘trying to figure things out’. For some he’s trying to figure out if he’s even that interested. For others, he’s trying to figure out if he wants to be exclusive. For others, he’s saying that he likes/loves you, but he’s contradicting that with his actions and stalling on committing.
Maybe he’s got a wife he needs to make the move to finalise a divorce with.
Maybe he keeps doing the whole ‘That One Time in Bandcamp’ thing where he keeps bringing up that time when he got hurt or the same old story about some woman that disappointed him.
Maybe he’s straight up saying he’s not sure.
Maybe he says he waiting to feel ready.
Whatever it is that he’s saying, there is a difference between you and him.
You’ve made a decision about him and decided to stick around in spite of the fact that he hasn’t got both feet in the relationship.
In fact, you’re waiting for him to make a decision about you, when you’ve already made a decision about him! Does that even make sense?
How horrible is it to be around someone who isn’t sure that they want to be with you when you have your heart and mind so set on him?
It’s a blow to your self-esteem and all the patience and compassion in the world can’t disguise the gnawing sensation of feeling vaguely humiliated and definitely rejected.
The thing is, it’s not that hard for someone to decide if they want to be with you and if they want to be in the relationship – we’ve just convinced ourselves that it is because it makes it more palatable as if it’s a prerequisite for love that you’ve got to cut your teeth being in pain.
Deep down, we know when someone actually wants to be around us and deep down, we also know when we truly feel good, and when someone truly loves and cares about us.
When a man ends the relationship with you and you cling to the relationship trying to win him back or obsessing about why he’s gone and why you love him so, this is a signal that something is very wrong because he has opted out and decided that you and whatever you both have is not worth trying for. This is a sign that come hell or high water, you need to drop the illusion and get real because you want someone that no longer wants you.
This is the same as when you’re with someone who can’t bring themselves to put both of their feet in the relationship and instead keeps a foot out, or just a toe in and makes it clear either through words or his actions that he is not on board. Instead of fighting for his attention, trying to prove yourself, trying to win, the fact that he is himming and hawing about you should be a serious indicator that something is wrong and that you need to step back, get real, and be careful of projecting what you think, feel, and believe on to him because clearly, you’re not on the same page.
And remember – when this continues over an extended period of time, it isn’t that he hasn’t made a decision; it’s that he’s using his indecision to mask the fact that he has made a decision, he just doesn’t want to clue you in on it. After all, better to hedge your bets than to do the decent thing…
Your thoughts?
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Astelle,
I go with the disorder!
Yeah but Astelle,
you have to ask yourself (all of us that are attracted to EUM’s) why are we attracted to these men with the disorder? If we were in the right place in our lives, we would not attract, or quickly discard as soon as we found out he can’t give us what we deserve!
I’m a bit confused by the statement, “You’re waiting for him to make a decision about you, when you’ve already made a decision about him.†I read this in the sense that yes, I am waiting, because I want to be with him – so as illogical as I am being about wanting to be with someone who is a complete and total jerk to me – it does make sense to wait. Can someone try to explain NML’s words more clearly?
Anne— what I think it means is:
You have already made a decision about him, that you want to be committed to him before he ever made a decision that he wanted to be committed to you… so why on earth should we make that decision to want to be committed and in love with someone who can’t return what we want and deserve, and has clearly shown that to us through his actions… but as spoke way too much crap with his words?
Here Here. Wishful thinking leads to misery.
Gina – It’s not a metaphor for anything else. You have decided that you want to be with him when he has either decided not to be with you or is still making up his mind about you. “You’ve made a decision about him and decided to stick around in spite of the fact that he hasn’t got both feet in the relationship.” Why do women want to be with men who are habitually undecided about them or who have made a decision (i.e they’re not committing) but who hang around playing mind games, depleting your self-esteem, and reaping the fringe benefits. If he’s undecided, why are you so decided?
Yes it seems far too many of us get hooked on people who just aren’t really there the way they should be. They have a suitcase full of excuses, hung up on an ex, not really available etc. etc. I think we have to stop counting on potential and see things for how they are right at the moment.
I don’t know if anyone has followed any Mars/Venus things but I think it really does a disservice to women. The guy is long gone or not really that interested and she is supposed to waiting around on him because he is in the cave or some such nonsense.
I know once you get in and are hooked on a particular guy, it is really hard to let go but if you aren’t being treated right or have the nagging gut feeling something isn’t right, you really have to let go.
NML I wonder if you would do some articles on this “Game” tactics men play on women. Like this place http://www.theattractionforums.com/online-game/91160-plenty-fish-close-2d-email-2.html
It just sickened my stomach to read through the posts on the calculating way they come up with scripts to say to lure women in bed.
Cheers everyone.
Thanks for your comments guys…I’ve been down the EUM route many times and now at least I’m seeing the signs earlier. I am going to back off for my own sanity. I honestly do not feel in my gut that this is right – I am just looking for confirmation that my instincts are correct which is what you have given me..I feel that we need to learn to act on our instincts which seems to be something lacking in women who repeatedly get involved with EUMs. I certainly am not going to boost his ego further by putting my feelings on the line. He is a grown man and knows exactly what he is doing..Thanks all xxx
Jean, I agree with you with regard to the Mars/Venus stuff. As I believe you are already aware, I followed it to the “T” and listened to posters on their boards and to my “coach” telling me, “Oh, he’s in uncertainty” or “Oh he’s in his cave” or this that or the other reason and the truth was, he is EU and doing all the things EUM do to manage down your expectations. If I had listened to my gut instead of the Mars/Venus stuff, I would have been much better off.
Just Wednesday, I happened to be checking out a new online site to see if it was any better than the others and lo and behold, there was ex-EUM on that site, as well. I checked out his profile and to my amusement/amazement, he lied in his profile! Hammered home to me that he doesn’t want anyone around too long because at some point, he would have to tell the truth about the particular issue and, well…. And, yes, I am seeing the games he played very clearly and feel sorry for the other, unsuspecting women out there because he is a wolf in sheeps clothing…Quiet, comes off as a bit shy…no way he could be a player…and he’s a BIG one! His harem is huge and I am only now putting that all together – didn’t see it when we were together.
I am having a particularly hard time reconciling the nice guy and this guy I’m now seeing…its like two different people. My head sees the AC and my heart is still seeing the potential.
This is actually amazing….I hit “submit” on my last post and remember something that happened that should have told me all right then and there. I was at EUM’s house and we were sitting outside in the late evening. One of his neighbors came over and when EUM introduced me to her she said, “Oh, my daughter mentioned meeting you a few weeks ago.” I NEVER met her daughter and did not put two and two together because I believed EUM when he said we were exclusive. I don’t know if this woman didn’t realize I was not the same girl or if she was trying to be kind and let me know to be careful.
I think I read somewhere about EUMs keeping large harems. My xEUM has a lot of women friends. In fact he has a lot more women friends then he does men. I always thought it was because he understood women so well that he couldn’t help, but have so many women friends. Now I’m hearing that it’s more for an ego boost, then because he actually understands us or wants to understand us. I asked a male friend of mine about that. He said that as a male he doesn’t trust this guy(xEUM). Anyway what do you guys think?
My ex-EUM also had a lot of female friends but I viewed it as positive. My question is, how is the ego stroked if the relationship is platonic?
One more thing. He is very social and seemed to be liked by both men and women.
Having an ego stroked has got nothing to do with sex and it doesn’t have to be between two people who are ‘romantically’ involved. It’s about attention, period. Many Mr Unavailable’s have female friends who they hang with, who tell him he’s amazing or that the woman he’s with is not suited to them, or who he sleeps with on the occasion or hints that he may deign them with the possibility of him being involved. Others just like female attention.
I’m not sure that xEUM was liked by many men. I was surprised to learn that there is actually some people that don’t like him. I found him to be very social too. He always seemed to be in a good mood. Then I found out that he suffered from depression and anxiety. He’s very moody, but I didn’t know that until I became initimate with him.
Hmmm…I think it makes sense that they have so many female friends for ego strokes. Just knowing that so many women look up to them or seek them out for advice must be good for ego strokes. A lot of women use to go talk to him and ask for his opinions. So them having a lot of women friends is a red flag?
NML…
Is he still getting his ego stroke if I am his friend but don’t constantly tell him that he is wonderful good looking etc…??? In fact, I feel I am the opposite……. I’m asking because I have many male friends (including one who I think is an EUM) and I guess because I sense or know that he gets sooo much attention from women….(and it actually makes me sick how these women sometimes act around him… giving him soo many compliments etc.). I actually dont comment on his looks or clothes or anything. Am I still giving him an ego stroke because I talk to him and it is platonic like Gaynor said? What is the happy medium? Or is there none?
Karen, Mr Unavailable’s are driven primarily by ego and that dictates what they do and they don’t do. There is no happy medium. It’s got nothing to do with what you think you’re doing, saying, thinking, feeling etc otherwise there wouldn’t be half the problems there are with these men. This is about him and how he chooses to intepret your attention. You want there to be a happy medium because you are determined to stay invested in the relationship. Much like with no contact where contact is contact, with Mr Unavailable, attention from you is attention. You are overreading into things and projecting your vision of things rather seeing the situation or him for what it is.
NML’s last blog post..Why you shouldn’t wait for him to make a decision about you
I don’t think that having female friends for a guy is a red flag. It’s all down to the type of relationships they have. Does he string one or more of them along making them believe it’s something more other than a friendship? That’s a red flag. Does he revel in the knowledge that one or more of them adore him in a way that’s more than friendly? That’s a red flag. But having female friends is not a red flag per se.
I’ve had a crush for someone who was just a friend but that didn’t make him a “EUM”. It was me having a crush for someone who didn’t have a crush on me. And it was up to me “being crushed” or moving on. Of course he was pleased, of course he was flattered when I told him after two years. Did he do anything to “keep me in love” for two years? No. It was my responsibility.
We can’t give them the knife, beg them to hurt us, ignore the fact that THEY ARE NOT IN LOVE WITH US and then scream victim!
Our happiness is OUR responsibility and our alone.
wow i needed to read this. makes me realise i made the right decision by dumping the my ex who freaked out as soon as i left as much as a bottle of shampoo at his house!
Yep, makes sense. Thanks again NML.
Judy, I had the same experience with that place. They are all about money. Every other post is call a coach. I wondered how many of their posters were even real or just shills for the site? The coaches seemed to have no qualifications, no degrees in anything.
With the Mr. Unavailable, any type of attention is good for them. It is just sad that there are so many dishonest people out there.
NML, I think this may be one of the differences between how boys and girls are raised today. Way back in the day, girls were raised with dolls (practice babies) and keep house – make a home. Boys worked with their father, learned to keep a family.
Today we still have dolls – but the keeping a family part isn’t well marketed like football and G.I.Joe or Play Station III. Or Wii.
Many guys miss the part about building a family. Many girls do, as well, of course – but they aren’t worried about commitment.
The answer to this disconnect – guys not having a vision or goal of making a family – is to pick guys that know what a family is, and wants to build one. For such a guy, the family is important, asking a girl out may be awkward the first time, but the reasons for asking, the reason to choose a responsible mate – these will already be there.
Shoes don’t stretch, men don’t change, and wanting to take a “relationship” to “the next level” is a switch in marketing strategy, a change in what products stores want to sell you. “Freedom only helps you say goodbye” (Karen Carpenter). You have to know that your partner is your mate, before getting serious.
Brad what an excellent post!
I think our disposable mentality in our society has a lot to do with it.
My therapist who is male, talked about the plethora of lazy mama’s boys under the age of 35. Zero work ethic, never taught to care about anything but themselves, etc.
I guess the point he was making is that there is such a lack of men who have good married life qualities about them.
I guess it is hard to know at first when you get involved if the person has the qualities of making a good partner for life. People are always on their best behavior at first.
reality is the big thing here. I got out of a two year relationship with a guy who just could not bring himself to commit. It was always some excuss after another and promises that he never kept. I finally put it together. . .He wanted me around just in case he decided one day that he wanted to be with me. . .well thats not good enough. I was not going to stand for being put on “lay away”. I told him it was over and although he tried to beg me back, manipulate me into seeing him again and pulled a number of other stunts to get me back in his life none of them were the offer of commitment. Although I would have turned him down had he even gotten down one one knee It was the shock of reality that pulled me out of my own head. These guys have no intentions they walk around misguided about what love really is and so self obsorbed they are incapable of truely feeling real deep love. This is sad. I feel bad for him. He will never have the kind of relationship with love and respect and trust that I will be able to eventually find. I comfort myself from the loss of our “relationship” by the thought that 1. With him gone I can find real love 2. That he can never hurt me again 3. That i got to be the one to walk away and I took control of the situation. Don’t let someone take away who you are by diminishing your own view of how worthy you are of a good solid relationship. Always remember that the only validation you really need to seek is from yourself. You ladies are all above living outside of reality. Open your eyes so that you can see what you really deserve.
A few days ago I ended a relationship with an EUM. He was a good friend.. but he forgot to hold up his part of the bargain. in all honesty, after 8 months of knowing him. i fell for him… and hard. hearing all about his grief divorce,kids, work problems, all meetings and calls were at his convenience, also we never had sex. once when we did try he couldn’t get it up and wept on my shoulder for half an hour (possibly from the trauma of his earlier separation, i dont really know) . since then my calls and messages in the last two months were met with no response, if i would then bump into him with common friends, his behaviour was as if nothing is wrong and not even a oh i forgot to call you back ! (I understand he is hurting, due to separation from two daughters and wife. but even if I was a crutch he must respect it). I lost patience with his unavailability as a friend to me, as well as a lover. he got angry and surprised at my emotions pathos and decided that its no good being friends again. its been bad.. the loss, etc but I do realise now that I have a pattern of attracting EUM. yes with me there was an absent father who died when i was 12, and a distant mother. So that seals the cause. My question to the people in this forum is, what can i do to change it? and how? love myself yes. but what is it that can make me not be attracted to EUMs ?
Hi Anna
I would recommend reading the 30 days of drama reduction series of posts. First and foremost it is understanding what it is about us that makes us attracted to these men… then by knowing this, the next step is about recognizing “red flags” and those indicators and triggers that we need to pay attention to and learn stay away from rather than going on AUTO PILOT and thinking these are the right feelings we should be having. I know for me i thought having this uneasy feeling, the unsureness, the hot and cold were all indicators that I was having a “relationship”. I guess because that is all I had ever known. Then I realized that no, those feelings were in fact indicators that I was with the wrong person. Its amazing how we can be so out of touch with what a “healthy relationship” should look and feel like. Perhaps we have been in bad one’s for soo long… .we dont even know a good one when it comes along and so we walk around thinking that this must be it!!! All in all…it is similar to an addiction or a bad habit…. its learning to recognize our patterns, be extremely aware of it and then know to leave the situation whenever we see or feel these triggers.
Again– I would read the book as well (if you havent done so already) and also read the posts under “30 days of drama reduction”.
Best of luck!!!
@ Anna, EUM’s are good (sometimes!) for a sex adventure – for a bar pickup, a hot date. Most of us enjoy exciting moments, and attention.
But if you want a mate, someone to be there for the long haul, look for someone that knows what a family is. Someone with good ties to their own family, someone with friendships (male and female, single and married) based on respect, common activities, and honor.
And, if you want a “good” guy – expect him to be boring (at least, when you start looking). A perpetual dater, an EUM that will never “settle down”, often has a life-skill of winning new bed partners, a skill they will continue practicing all their life. When you instead treasure respect and honor over “easy to get to know” and “great dancer/dresser/kisser” you are likely starting to see the good guys.
If you are hearing about hurts and pains on the first date – or even the second – run away. Good guy or not, he has healing to do *before* he will be ready to meet anyone as a dating partner. Hemingway not withstanding, playing nurse to help the healing is an invitation to disaster. A relationship takes effort and focus. Someone that is still healing just doesn’t have the resources to make a go of it.
Start with your grandparents if you can. Make some married friends. Start observing and trying to understand – what is a family? And who do I need to help me build one? Whether you intend children or not, or whether there are already children, what a long term relationship comes down to – is a family. Don’t pick someone that is a hot date and hope or assume you can turn that introduction into something life-long. Start out with someone capableof, and interested in being, a life-companion.
Luck!
Brad K.’s last blog post..From lending money to protecting your heart
I absolutely love this site!!!! oh myGod—i found this at the right time in my life!!! just broke up with my EUM for the 7th time in 10 mths!!
this man was a complete JERK!!! I saw the signs early on but didn’t exactly know the seriousness of his sickness! He is 57 yrs old, never been married(so he says), lying, cheating,egotistical, narcissistic, full of him self fool!!! At first he told me he had many female friends, some exes, some just friends—-and through-out the relationship he never introduced me to any but one woman!! he lied to the others about not having a girlfiend and was always uncomfortable talking to them in front of me, and when questioned about the nature of the relationships he’d blow up or sometimes lie or just avoid saying anything!! In the beginning he seemed like the sweetest guy a girl could want, the relationship seems absolutely wonderful—until i discovered his habitual lying, hiding his cell phone, confronting him, checking his phone!! he told me he was in-love with me and talked about a future with me until I became enraged and aggravated concerned about where things were going. I was the perfect woman for him as long as I didn’t complain or call him on his faults!! I spent countless months asking him for commitment, truth, openess, and all i got were empty promises and dissapointment constantly!!! now he can’t take anymore saying he wants a nice, quiet, humble woman who doesn’t fuss at him and he blames me for him not wanting a future with me!! I kept thinking i’ll just try and be more understanding and be quiet but i was living with gut renching anxiety daily and worried about what he was doing when he wasn’t with me. I thought that a man of his age would know what he wants by NOW!!!!! well i ended it for good a few days ago and i am graetful for this site!!
I’ve been listening to Chrisette Michelle’s new song(Epiphany) and it has helped me to stay focused and not go back to this JERk!!!
Please comment on this ladies —please!
I’m pretty heartbroken right now, although reading this blog makes me feel better just knowing that what I’m “giving up” is actually a non-relationship that makes me feel terrible a lot of the time. I’ve been involved with this emotionally unavailable guy for over 2 years, the first year he couldn’t even ask me out, would constantly flake out on our plans and his main form of communication was drunk texting me! I got sick of that and we stopped talking for about half a year but reconnected about a year ago and began sleeping with each other. At first I was only seeing him about once a month, which is so absurd but somehow I just refused to see the writing on the wall. Then for a while things were going “well” meaning we’d see each other once a week (usually at night and we’d meet up when we’d already been out partying with other ppl), I met all his friends and family who I adore, he became more communicative (but still barely and through texting). But there were still tons of red flags, the relationship was nowhere near normal but my standards became so low that when he threw me a bone, I accepted it wholeheartedly and considered it a “good step”. I told him to stop treating me like a booty by only calling me at night but in reality I don’t think that he’s using me for sex, he’s not even really a super sexual person to be honest. The real problem is that he’s just not committed at all. If he gets “busy” with exams or work, i won’t hear from him for a week and a half, or see him for up to three weeks, and we live in the same city! We haven’t even discussed what we are, because I’m too scared to broach the subject knowing that he’s clearly NOT interested in having a real relationship. This past weekend, we went to a party at his friends house and we pretty much spent the entire night talking to other people, it’s like he’s scared to show affection at all. When one of his pals asked “is this your girlfriend?” he gave a pretty emphatic “no” which stung a lot. When we got back to his house, he kind of acted like I wasn’t there and went on his computer downloading stuff and chatting to his friends for about 20 minutes until I got pissed off, grabbed my things and took off. And he hasn’t even called me since then. Writing all of this out really makes me realize what a jerk he’s been and I’m tired of excusing his behaviour and insisting that he’s really a “great guy” who just has commitment issues. I don’t know, he’s my first love and I’m still really in love with him. I know what I have to do but I feel like doing it is going to rip my heart out. Will I ever get over this?
Thank you again for this site. I love it, it’s an eye opener, it’s truthful and it’s something me and a lot of women need.
I did something similar a long time ago when me and my son were cohabitating with a guy. He was nice, he was fun, my son loved him, he treated my son as his own, he tucked him in, played with him, helped with his homework, picked him up at school, etc and we seemed one, big, happy family. About 1.5 years into our cohabitation, I brought up the topic of marriage and whether our relationship is going down that path. I am after all a single mother and I’m not in this relationship by myself. I made him so nervous about the subject, he said that he needed to go for a drive. That was the first clue that gave me that he was not into this relationship as much as I was.
Several weeks later, he told me that he will be moving out and I asked him if he needed help.
I was heart-broken needless to say, especially when I’d involved my son into this relationship. I learned two very important lessons from that relationship. One, don’t get my son involved with the guys I’m dating until I know he’s serious and completely committed, two, never cohabitate.
Thank you
NML,
i have a questions. My EUM and I broke up a few weeks ago and decided that we should just be friends because he can’t give me what I need. Since then, we’ve hooked up a few times which I know is stupid because I’ve basically absolved him from all responsibility. Yesterday, we spent the entire day together for my birthday with my friends, he drove us all out to the lake and it was just really nice. We ended up sleeping together at night. I’m just wondering, in your books it talks about Mr. Unavailable being all about the ego, but my guy is shy, timid, awkward and somewhat self-conscious. He’s a really sweet, cute/endearing guy, but he definitely uses alcohol as a crutch, he always drunk dials me (and rarely sober dials!), and is more open and affectionate when he is drunk. It’s not just sex, it’s that he can talk about our relationship, he can hold my hand, he’s just less awkward. But when he’s sober it’s like there’s a wall that goes up, he’s resistant to falling in love me with. He’s only just turned 22 years old, and I’m only the second girl he’s ever slept with or cared about and I”m just wondering — is it possible that he’ll grow out of this and that it has to do with legitimate immaturity. It’s difficult for me to believe that someone with so many great characteristics will NEVER be able to give a woman what she needs out of a relationship. Also, is it possible that he does genuinely care about me and is not intentionally using me to stroke his ego, although he admittedly is not giving me what I deserve. When we broke up I told him that I felt like he couldn’t open up to me and he admitted that he can’t and that he’s struggling to understand why he acts the way that he does. He said that although he’s shitty boyfriend material, he could never see me for a lengthy period of time without having feelings but that he knew that was what I was thinking, which is why we should end the relationship. We get along ridiculously well, and I love his friends and family and vice versa. Is there a way we can somehow be friends once I’m out of love with him? I really think he has a good heart.
Confused,
Before you can have a relationship with a guy, he has to be able to have a relationship. An alcoholic – someone who’s drinking affects family or friends – is too tangled up to consider. By remaining in contact with him, you are enabling his behavior. He will never seek to heal – which won’t happen because he says it will, or because you ask or demand – as long as he has his “friend”. By trying to be there for him, you allow him to remain comfortable and self-medicated.
Alcoholics don’t have a good reputation for relationships, for a reason. Alcohol, used regularly, distorts the world. If your guy has learned to get along while drunk – he isn’t living in the sober world where he could do anyone much good for anything.
You may want to contact Al-Anon or Alcoholics Anonymous for more information about being in an alcoholic’s life, and about how much assistance you will need, to recover from being a part of his life.
Dialing drunk is not a party prank, it is profound disrespect of self and others.
In addition to causing him to continue his self-medicated behavior, staying his “friend” keeps you involved with him – and not available to meet and start something meaningful with someone suitable.
Unless you actually want your ex to be a barrier, to keep you from having to be part of a long term relationship.
Brad K.’s last blog post..BR: Commitment, a perspective
Hi Brad,
I think you might have misunderstood me. He is definitely NOT an alcoholic, he just parties like any other college kid, probably as much as I do (weekends/holidays). What I was trying to say was that when he is drunk, he’s a lot more open, particularly towards me and our relationship and he is less guarded about showing me affection, this applies to sex as well. There are some people who make booty calls when they are drunk because they want sex. But with my guy, he doesn’t seem to have confidence to make a move unless he is drunk, so that’s mainly when we have sex. And even more so now that we’re broken up. It’s like he thinks if it happens under the influence it doesn’t count in the real world, and that’s what he’s freaked out of — making the relationship legitimate and having to take the responsibility and intimacy that goes along with it. He’s rarely able to open up to me when he’s sober, I think that’s just too real for him. He definitely has confidence issues but I dont think he’s necessarily a jerk off.
Confused
I don’t know how much you really are invested in this guy, he probably has a sensitive and good heart, but its his head and work ethic that’s the trouble. Take it from me, a party girl of the 70′s. If you are not in touch with your feelings and can’t handle your emotions, except when a drug or alcohol is involved, you have not one, but two problems.
The first is emotional immaturity; the path to maturing emotionally includes self awareness and learning to honestly face and deal with your strong emotions as a sober adult. Emotions are powerful, childhood hurts are plentiful, many sensitive people are afraid of and confused by strong feelings that come with love, fear and hurt.
The second problem is the comfortable feeling some people get from a drug or alcohol. While the substance is comforting, it also stunts one’s emotional growth, as mentioned above. Very very few drugs encourage self awareness and understanding and I would not put alcohol in that category. I see alcohol as a numbing / avoidance drug. And I certiainly am not recommending those few drugs that may offer insight either.
It’s so hard for me to call someone shy and 22 years old an assclown or jerk. He def is an EUM though. The 50+ EUM that I knew was an alcoholic for decades and, sadly, at that age the AC tag fits pretty well. I always thought he had the emotional maturity of someone thirty years younger.
The man you know is at the age where he should be at least starting to figure stuff out and it instead sounds like he’s heading for Wallowing Boy Land. I been there, and its not a pretty picture when a guy basically tells you all the reasons why he’s no good, and then does not do anything to get better.
Admitting you are struggling, as he has, is not the same as getting help and working on your problems, though it is a first important step. But I think many man- boys get women to feel sorry for them, the women try to help them, and it proves to be a frustrating experience for all.
Even if this man does not fit your profile of a full blown alcoholic, he is self medicating, and has the same issues that drive people to abuse drugs to cope with thier struggles, It is human to want intimacy, but if you have trouble coping with it, you will have a hard time in life. If you avoid working on what troubles you, you will have a hard time in this life.
He would benefit so much from being able to work on his intimacy issues, but the reason many of us women are here is we thought we could help a guy do that and…it does not work that way.
He has to recognize his issues, he has to see a problem, he has to want to work on his problem. You have to live your life. There are a lot of stories on these pages of women who gave a lot of thier lives to EU men. What we all have in common is that it did not work out so well.
Confused,
I don’t think I misunderstood at all about the alcoholic behavior. I married one. My uncle was committed to treatment after his stroke. I know what Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) classifies as a drunk or alcoholic. You (he) is there; and you are enabling. Just because there are worse drunks doesn’t mean he isn’t one.
As for the EUM – he already gave up on life. When he claimed he was “shitty boyfriend material” he was asking permission to stay that way. And you gave it to him. No, he will never change while you are in his life.
Brad K.’s last blog post..The family, the child, and the culture of the home
aphrogirl,
I think you’re right and either way he’s not going to change while I’m sitting around being his fallback girl. As much as I love him and am very emotionally invested in him, I’m starting to realize that I can’t project my affection on him in hopes that he’ll reciprocate. It seems like he’s most comfortable when he hasn’t seen me for a week or two, I guess because that space makes him feel better, and then he’ll pursue me. But throughout our relationship, the majority of his contact has been thru text, facebook or drunk dialing. I don’t want him to go through his life like this, but I guess that’s no longer my concern. It’s time that I start being selfish too, I just turned 22 and I don’t want to waste any more years in this limbo.
This site is amazing at taking all the B.S out of dating and relationships and keeping it real.. I love it. Here i was today upset because i had met a guy a couple of weeks ago on a dating site and we met and there was instant chemistry and we both said we were looking for the same thing… He sent me flowers to work and paid for everything and said things like ‘he really liked me and could easily fall in love with me’ and i was suckered in by it all… We both agreed from the start that we wouldn’t date other ppl and we’d see how this goes. Last week i started noticing him adding random chiks to his facebook and today i actually went to deactivate my profile and noticed he was online. I text him and told him not to worry about seeing each other on the weekend and he asked what was wrong. I told him i saw him on the dating site and he said the guys at work were on his computer and when its turned on everything opens up. Now we’re talking a dating site- that you have to go to, not messenger that just loggs on. Anyway, then he said he doesnt like ppl who jump to conclusions and that he wasnt happy. Like a fool i fell for it and asked him to put himself in my shoes and how that would have looked and i even said i was sorry :/… But after reading some of the articles on this site, i am not going to enter into his games. He was on there, looking for something better to come along and got caught and tried to make me feel bad ( which admittidly i was for a bit).. But thanks to this awesome sight i am inspired to get on with my day/week/ life and not be drawn into the head games these guys wanna play. (Btw after i said sorry, he didnt reply back most likely to make me feel bad for catching him out aka accusing him lol..) But he can forget it. over and out xx
“Tell me guys– do you really think that a man in his 30’s didnt want to hurt me so instead of letting me go—- he just held on until I couldnt take it anymore and I had to end it?”
This is exactly what my EUM has done to me for two years, and he’s in his 40s. I think that part of him, as an afterthought – or when I’m asking him about the relationship – brings out this incredibly lame excuse to justify his behavior. But knowing him well, I also know that the man just doesn’t have the cajones to take a stand on ANYTHING. He doesn’t really want me, but he doesn’t really not want me either. My EUM is truly one of the most spineless, jellyfishes of a human being I have ever had the displeasure of meeting. I have lost absolutely all respect for him as a human being, let alone as a man. And all I can do now, is focus on salvaging my own self-respect out of the trash after willingly, agonizingly (and ok, spinelessly) submitting to his behavior for two years!
Yes, I’m a little angry. And it feels good. (-:
I just found this site, and went through a bunch of posts, and it’s crazy how true what you’ve written is, so I just wanted to say thank you.
I’m still in college, and earlier this week I met with a guy who’d seemed like he was interested. We’d been spending a lot of time together, and he brought me to meet his parents, and his friends. He called me and texted me regularly, and we got to be quite close. When I wound up kissing him at a party a few weeks later, it all felt quite natural.
However, when I saw him this week (shortly after the hookup- which was both drunk and sober), I told him that I wasn’t interested in a friends with benefits arrangement and that I’m only in for the real deal. And he said he didn’t know. And I said- read: me, projecting- I said would he like to take some time to think, and he said yes, and I told him I wouldn’t wait forever.
And I don’t think he’s ever going to call or give me a real concrete decision. But at least now I know he is an assclown who jerked me around without ever really intending to give me what I want.
ksurya,
You pick a partner-prospect for his character, his involvement in community and family – his aptitude with small animals and children. Or you pick someone for a fling, a sex-adventure. Don’t blame the sex-adventurer you picked up, when it was the prospect of fun that was all you checked out. If you wanted more, you should have been checking his ethics, his morals, his interest in forming a shared life. He might be quite suitable, just confused, or the timing might be off – or, as you say, he might have been experienced at winning bed partners and just jerking you around. In any case, you didn’t evaluate and choose a partner-prospect, you merely looked for “interested”.
Often the people with low self esteem take a long time to realize how dysfunctional their pairing has become. You recognized the warning signs right off. I know you are angry right now, but I don’t think this means you are trapped in a cycle of repeating EUM after EUM down a long and painful road. A little more attention to whether you want a life-mate and a satisfying life, or sex adventures that don’t lead to home, family, and community, may be all you need to avoid this kind of bozo-charade.
Brad K.’s last blog post..The family, the child, and the culture of the home
“I also know that the man just doesn’t have the cajones to take a stand on ANYTHING. He doesn’t really want me, but he doesn’t really not want me either.”
Exactly what I concluded after 30 years of marriage! He forced me to finally break up with myself! Stay angry, PlanetJane; it’s a great motivator and keeps the focus on action rather than beating yourself up. Don’t waste too much time waiting for him to become a real man.
I had been dating an EUM for six months. I usually don’t attract this kind of relationship, so it has been very hard. I guess I saw the red flags in the beginning, he just didn’t seem that interested, but I wrote it off to being shy. He had been coming out of a 26 year marriage and I thought I would give him some space and be patient. Over the past several months he began calling more and we would meet at the club where I met him. I was excited about the progress and spent the weekend with him and some of his friends. That night he called me to make sure I had gotten home ok. and I expressed how I felt abut him and he reciprocated. He called the next several nights and we made plans to see each other that weekend. That Friday night he called and said he was breaking up with me and he was getting back together with his girlfriend of three years that he had been having problems with. I thought he was unattached, he never said anything about a girlfriend. He said he realized how much he loved her and that he and I should just be friends. I was just devistated, I has feelings for him and he was in love with someone else the entire time. I feel like I was hit by a truck. Any comments from anyone?
Jolene,
It sucks!!!!
Mine had been coming out of a 20+ marriage for four-years. I guess I should have recognized there may be a problem when he discussed how much the ex had hurt him during the marriage, yet still made her an important presence in his life with the adult kids .
These guys are so screwed up and have absolutely no concern for anyone but themselves. I think they lack any conscious or character whatsoever; isn’t nice that we’re there to serve any temporary needs they may have.
Did he ever mention the ex?
He said during his marriage that he tried and tried but things just kept getting worse. He never once mentioned his current GF. I guess I should have listened to the warning signs, the guy for some reason just creeped me out. He also said that he didn’t get along with his daughter, she wasn’t speaking to him, another red flag. I would have liked to have known what happened. Its just that now I don’t want to go back to my astronomy club, he has been there a long time.
Jolene,
He told you he was coming out of a 26 year marriage. That means both that he is walking-wounded, emotionally, and asking permission to remain conflicted and avoid responsibility. You kept in contact – giving him that permission for irresponsible, self-centered behavior.
If you want a healthy relationship, stick to the healthy guys. Picking up a soon-to-be-grateful, easy-to-win fixer-upper isn’t a healthy way to start. We need to help our mate heal and overcome problems – picking partner-prospects with major issues is not going to work out. You need to know that he can cope, that his is honorable and honest and interested. But picking someone already wounded – you cannot know what he will be when he heals (if he heals).
If you didn’t know about the GF, and have both been in the Astronomy club a while, he may be able to just be cordial. He doesn’t deserve friendly, the creep. But you might try cordial, and wary, with him. And do beware – he wants a fallback girl, not a mate. He lost his marriage; if it is true he doesn’t understand why it went sour, he is a long way from being honest with himself or from being skilled enough to be a life-partner and mate. If he is willing (and able) to separate his ex-GF from his relationship with you, he is deceptive and manipulative, and dishonorable, too. Just be aware he isn’t just another member of the club, he is someone proven to be a predator in social recreation. Just don’t gossip or look for sympathy, or tell tales about him or the two of you. That doesn’t seem like it would benefit you or the club.
Remember – the best revenge, is living well. You aren’t his mommy and responsible for training or punishing him. Living well doesn’t hurt you, it doesn’t cost you, and it makes your recovery short and sweet.
Luck!
Brad K.’s last blog post..Mate finances
Thanks for all your help! I have decided to join another club in the area for awhile, I don’t want to see him. It’s funny though, he is the VP of the club and very well liked among the other members, mostly men. Its kind of a contradiction. He would usually call me, but one week I was on vacation out of town and he had left a message inviting me to an event they were having. I called him back and he was so cold. I was expecting him to say he missed me while I was gone and that he was happy to hear from me. Instead when I was speaking to him, he was very distant and said “You called?” Frost over the phone lines! I was just trying to say I had gotten his message and want to confirm.
What do you mean he is a predator and what kind?
I am sure that even if he was to try to get things going with him again, I wouldn’t be tempted. The entire experience was just too awful. I can’t imagine being the GF, the one he says he is in “love” with. That was another thing, how can you say how much you love someone else to a person that has just expressed their feelings for you? It was actually very cruel.
Jolene, a predator – spends his social time looking for someone to meet his needs, at least until the next event or hunt.
His actions say he is looking for comfortable, bubble-headed dates that won’t interfere with his tidy little world. Whatever he *thinks* he wants – it isn’t to share a life, build a home, or change his ways.
As for the frosty phone moment – don’t waste time trying to figure it out. It may have been the company or location he was, it might have been his Time Of The Month, whatever. He obviously considered your call an annoyance, and seems to be annoyed with you – which can happen between lovers, but is *not* reassuring, and would make me think of walking away.
Yes, second chances and forgiveness are important things, trying to get along with someone and in a community. But disrespect? That stings, and stinks, and is a *nasty* habit – and taints those that use it.
Brad K.’s last blog post..Why do men chase women?
i was dating this guy for almost two months and everything was good between us except he never tooked me out. i was introduced to all of his friends and family but never taken out. when i told him how much it hurt me that he didn’t take me out bcuz i felt as if he didnt care about me he told me it wasnt true but that he doesnt know whether or not he can fully commit 2 me. u see we are both in our final yr of college and are both trying to get into a grad school. he tells me im perfect but the timing is not. was i fooled as well? is he lying?
Men who are 40+, never married, and on children are the MOST dangerous men walking the planet. They KNOW that many women view them as a “catch,” yet they continually string women along by giving them clues that they are really ready to settle down. A man of 40+ has AT LEAST 20 years of dating experience under his belt, and since these men usually are NOT sleeping alone, they get off by leading women on, and dumping them when they feel that things are getting too serious. Surely, in ALL of those years of dating, they found one or more women who could have made them great wives and/or mothers of their children. These men are experts at the game of seduction/rejection, so if you don’t want to get badly burned, I suggest that you RUN FAST IN THE OTHER DIRECTION when you meet them. If you want a friend, these men may be good candidates but as potential husbands and fathers, don’t waste your time.
@ THE TRUTH,
I would say men over 25-30, that are out looking for dates, fall into the warning you describe so eloquently.
But there are others, that aren’t chasing skirts, that aren’t even considering having someone to share their lives with. Men of character and honor, disciplined, some have experience raising animals or kids, have healthy emotional bonds to friends and family, have the respect of friends and co-workers. But they are *not* hanging out at pickup spots. You may need to be active in your community to find someone that knows these quiet and respectful partner possibilities. You just need to find someone that knows who they are, and be patient to become their friend and win their respect, then convince them they want to share their lives. Don’t count on them understanding the etiquette of dates and dating. But do rely on their honor and character – or move on to another candidate.
I have read that jobs are like dates – it is easier to get one if you currently have one. Be danged sure you avoid anyone already dating. You want someone with character, not a life-skill of winning bed partners. Someone skilled at winning bed partners make great companions for a sex adventure – but not for anything where you need to trust your partner.
Brad K.’s last blog post..Book: Judge Judy gets tough on romance
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