Throughout my life I’ve had various experiences that have impacted me and triggered some judgement of me (by me) and then later down the line, those experiences have had less of a hold on me. In retrospect I learned that the meaning of these difficult experiences changed when my perspective changed and in turn how I felt shifted dramatically and I was able to ‘let go’. I can go from feeling guilty, burdened or wounded to lighter, freer, happier.
When you change the meaning, you change the feeling.
If you consider those times when you’ve gone from platonic or not interested to feeling interested, it’s because something or a series of things have happened that you’ve presumed their interest from or you’ve taken the meaning of it to ignite your own interest. Sometimes the meaning is true because it’s self-evident – they showed their interest, you reciprocated or vice versa. Of course there’s times when the meaning isn’t the meaning – they might not be interested or you may have misjudged your own interest.
Recently as I’ve contemplated my own feelings from the fallout with my father and co, I homed in on a feeling that ‘shouldn’t’ be there but it was – guilt – and it’s put this whole ‘perspective thing’ to the test. It wasn’t abandonment (that ship has sailed a long time ago – you can’t do what’s already been done), it definitely was disappointment, there was some rejection which was actually more feeling unsupported and betrayed, and I’ve moved beyond feeling angry or frustrated. It was guilt.
I realised that even though it wasn’t an overwhelming feeling, I had felt some level of guilt in response to all of their reactions.
I felt like I had done something wrong, that I failed in an obligation, which is just downright ridiculous – this whole thing is about my father who hadn’t been around since I was very young (I have no memory of my parents together unless you count the tension at pickup and drop off for visitations) feeling that he should be walking me down the aisle because I’m his daughter, even though I was raised by someone else.
Rationally and logically I know that I shouldn’t have felt guilty and yet it would pop up and then I’d remind myself. The funny thing is that yeah they’ve all said stuff (or moaned about it and then I’ve heard it back through Chinese Whispers) but to be fair, this whole guilt thing has a lot to do with me because I am the one who somewhere along the line has taken some meaning to imply that I ‘should’ feel guilt. I don’t have to though. However a few days ago I got wind that someone else who fell out with them a long time ago is ‘back’. I was thinking about what happened there and the whole debacle and then it hit me: Er, this is pretty much the same thing that happened to you and to your brother, only it happened before you were born. Same characters, same dynamic, similar issues.
I’ve had to heed my own words – it’s not about me. It’s not about you. It’s personal in that it happened to me (or to you) but what has happened is not specific to me or to you.
Yes you have your experience with them but this is bigger than the situation or your involvement with them. There is this whole wanting to feel like we’re ‘bigger’ than, well, everything (I think it’s to validate our experience of them), and one of the ways we can make ourselves seem like we’re super-important is by blaming ourselves .
People don’t roll out different characters for different people and when you can look beyond your own situation and feelings, you can see that these people have ‘form’ for this or that even if the situations are different and they appear to have ‘better’ relationships with other people, the same problem factors like, for instance, lack of empathy, lack of support, betrayal, actions not matching words, responsibility dodging or whatever are still there.
Yes of course you would prefer not to be having a difficult time with them but don’t kid yourself and think that you’d be skipping through a happy clappy land full of butterflies and rainbows. You’re either suggesting that they’ve had a whole character change for you or after you (which would be pretty spectacular considering how much work goes into changing ourselves for ourselves), or, you’ve got to admit into ‘evidence’ that what you’re dealing with existed before you came along. You may have thought you’d get a better ‘deal’, you may have though that you’d be the exception, but you weren’t. It sucks, but at least when we recognise that we wanted something better than what was, it’s actually admission of the existence of the problems.
Recognising the pattern that stretches back for decades gave me a lightbulb moment and I instantly felt lighter. Oh it’ll take time to totally move on, but it’s funny how as one person bows out (me), someone else steps back in and the dynamic will be put to the test again.
The fact that we can languish on a rejection and ruminate for weeks, months or even years on end, or that we take the blame even when it’s not our fault, or we get stuck on regret, or feel abandoned, or can gradually bounce back again and feel happy is all about the meanings we take away from these experiences.
It’s very easy to ride with what you know. I used to tell myself that I was having an extended run of bad luck, that there was something ‘about me’ that turned available men into unavailable men, and that I just wasn’t good enough. I took these meanings from various different experiences and you know, I could have kept going with that and I’d still be riding the Mr Unavailable merry-go-round completely blind to what was really going on. Baggage Reclaim wouldn’t even exist!
Changing the meaning of something can give you the room to breathe and live. Entertain another perspective! Why make the meaning of something that’s not all about you, all about you and your worth?
Change the meaning, change the feeling. I’m living by BR’s ethos – reclaim you, offload your baggage. I already feel lighter. You can too.
Your thoughts?
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Yes, Natalie. Someone always has to be “it.” When I stepped out of that role, someone else became the target for my mom.
Powerful stuff, Natalie.
It has taken a lot of self reflection and a ton of therapy to get the point you’re talking about: I had no say in how my mom raised me which led to multiple disasterous validation seeking relationships. She is the way she is. She has always been so and will always be. Out of my hands. No more guilt on my end.
Just wanted to say how important this site is and how it really does make a difference. I’ve been reading for a while now, recognising myself as I go through the same journey that so many other people are on, from thinking that a circus of mind games and dysfunction is love, to realising that you have to love yourself, really properly and truly, before you’ve got a hope in hell of having anything healthy in your life. Going NC was an easy decision for me – this is the third time I’ve been through this shit, different guy every time – but still, those lingering doubts, the pull of emotion… It was Natalie’s article about connection that really clicked it for me. No matter how, logically, I understood that the relationships I’ve been in have been damaging, I could not square this with the ‘connection’ that i felt. It was like I thought that, as soon as the connection went, i would acknowledge that it really did mean nothing, and, even though I was in NC with the person, I was waiting for the feeling to go before i really disconnected. I can’t say how helpful it has been to read Natalie’s article on connection and understand that, though that strong feeling might remain, it does not mean what I think it means. There’s a sense of loss in this, but mostly, it’s liberation. I don’t have to wait not to feel that pull to move on. I can feel the pull, and understand that it’s just childhood stuff, its powerful and seductive and promises great things, but it is not truthful, or honest, or benevolent, any more than the relationship one might get from a drug is. It was like something i’d been waiting to hear – that a connection can exist and mean nothing good. Yes, i feel it. Yes, i don’t have to shape my life around it, because what good things has this so called connection brought me? None. Pray god, eventually, i won’t remember what that horrible addictive longing ever felt like (i swear it has shifted just having read the article). Baggage Reclaim is such an amazing site, acknowledging the scarily prevalent issues behind love addiction and lending support as we get healthy. Natalie, you are a star. Everyone – it’s grim to move forward, it really is, at first there are no sparkly rainbows and fluffy bunnies, but there’s so much good stuff on the other side. I for one feel better than I ever have in my life before. Let’s keep going!
Nickster, Ditto!
I especially like:
“It was Natalie’s article about connection that really clicked it for me. No matter how, logically, I understood that the relationships I’ve been in have been damaging, I could not square this with the ‘connection’ that i felt. It was like I thought that, as soon as the connection went, i would acknowledge that it really did mean nothing, and, even though I was in NC with the person, I was waiting for the feeling to go before i really disconnected. I can’t say how helpful it has been to read Natalie’s article on connection and understand that, though that strong feeling might remain, it does not mean what I think it means.”
I haven’t been commenting so much lately but thank you Natalie for the great posts and all the wonderful, thoughtful commenters, too! I’ve been reading and processing and quoting BR in conversations with friends.
I think this sums up so much of BR’s enormous benefit to me in my recovery process:
“Changing the meaning of something can give you the room to breathe and live. Entertain another perspective! Why make the meaning of something that’s not all about you, all about you and your worth?
Nickster
What an excellent comment.
“I can feel the pull, and understand that it’s just childhood stuff, its powerful and seductive and promises great things, but it is not truthful, or honest, or benevolent, any more than the relationship one might get from a drug is.”
yes, so true! I don’t miss the intensity of that horrible, addictive longing either. At 3+ months NC, I still get “flashbacks” of it, but the compulsion to act on it is no longer there. Or if it does return, I simply come to BR to do some “protective” reading.
Glad you posted, and yes, let’s keep going with NC and moving forward!
rock on, nickster. *cheers*
Wonderful, Nickster. Thank you for posting.
“People don’t roll out different characters for different people.” They are who they are before we get there and they’ll be who they are when we leave. “Its not about YOU!!” LOVE IT!!!
lo J
This part spoke to me, too. It’s reassuring to think we weren’t the only ones who got the EU part of the exes, isn’t it? I hope you are doing well. Hugs xo
Love this… Now just need to start living it!! Thanks for the reminder!!
Natalie, I love reading your posts. I found you at one of my darkest times and you’ve lightened my load immensely. It’s great to read something and have an “Uh huh” moment.
Your perspective on things has given me a few of those.
Thanks always!
Thank you Cindy, you just wrote what I was feeling. A wonderful reminder.
Darlene
Guilt can be self-motivating if you feel it appropriately. I found that the guilt I felt about past boyfriends would later manifest in how I coped with the break-up. I’d think that I had be a better girlfriend next time, but I didn’t think about the guilt they should have been feeling because of how they treated me. The trouble is when you get a person who guilt-trips you and frequently does it so that you become used to it. That can wear down how you feel about yourself. The wrong people in my life have known how to exploit the guilt-trips which they know I and other women are susceptible to. Learning not to fall for these guilt-trips has helped me and I hope not to slip into old habits. After my last break-up, the guilt caused me to feel far too much pity for someone who hadn’t treated me with respect. Meanwhile I didn’t think my self-blame was a detriment to my own being, but it was.
“People don’t roll out different characters for different people”…”even if the situations are different and they appear to have ‘better’ relationships with other people, the same problem factors like, for instance, lack of empathy, lack of support, betrayal, actions not matching words, responsibility dodging or whatever are still there”.
Nat the light bulb came on, Thanks
I just wanted to thatnk you for all your useful info 🙂
Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!
Self-respect is a choice
Nickstar as i read your post as i struggle with thay pull to contact him i kept saying yes . It is just what you said just a pull a addiction to that not the person . The ex mm when not blowing hot which was 4 yrs out of 5 was cold it was me and my warped idea of a connection that kept me stuck there and i lay here and feel that pull. But now i tell myself its me that feels it he does not and i keep telling myself that. It is my longing , yearning for somthing that i think is there and its not he has moved on .
Also they never change that is so true he was who he was bf i came along just i bought it for longer i to my shame knew hed had a affair bf me and its that crap exception to rule and how they first pursue you . As i laid here last week thinking hell leave the wife for this one i realised he wont and he is who he is with new ow , the fact hed would have carried on seeing me but goving me less proves she wasnt a exception either and isnt just a fresh face to mind eff with and lie to when she becomes attached. .
He is allready up to somthing and where i thought it would hurt i frel numb but laugh that hes already lying to new ow ( course he is , she doesnt know my true story ) . I get the impression he rather be single i told him that and play the field he never did married at 19 . So he has his escapism now thsts prob his justification. .
Im glad ive tead nickstars post and all the others keeps me grounded instead of la la land and my fake pull of the connection . Im keeping on with my nc and looking after me and appreciating you guys and my good mates out there , strength to u all in your battles .
Ps i put on fb i miss my pal who made me laugh and a dear friend put look in the mirror she still there just lost
I put underneath was for a while but saved myself and im proud i did xx
Tired
“But now i tell myself its me that feels it he does not and i keep telling myself that. It is my longing , yearning for somthing that i think is there and its not he has moved on .”
Yes, a very helpful thought!
“People don’t roll out different characters for different people”…”even if the situations are different and they appear to have ‘better’ relationships with other people, the same problem factors like, for instance, lack of empathy, lack of support, betrayal, actions not matching words, responsibility dodging or whatever are still there”.
I have been reading this website forever and knew that eventually like everyone else, I would end up having to write something down … And here it is.
I have been able to keep my logical cap on for most of my vampire relationships : my mother, my father actually most of my family and some of the friends I chose to keep close only realize later they were actively sucking the life source out of me and would eventually leave me for dead when they were done.
But this one scenario, this one story I have been working on for years…and I can’t heal. Typical basic mr EUM story : he worked on me for 8 months, months during which I ignored the flags because when he did follow through he was awesome – and then we eventually got intimate … The next day for a reason I can’t explain : I ran. And there it started the cat and mouse chase for about a year and a half while more flags were coming about and I was automatically rejecting him when he was inviting me out for coffees and other dates when all I wanted was to be with him … I wanted him to try harder even though he can’t keep a hard on ( pun intended) .. Eventually I went all out and told him he either wanted to be with me and followed through or he didn’t and should leave me alone because I am too darn awesome to be treated like that ( verbatim) …
As my colleague ( yes ladies I did make that mistake ) we would continue working civilly but he should not text me or call me or anything else that is not related to work unless he had the intention to follow through.
And so he did .. We stayed polite colleagues though he kept coming to me at work, he did exactly what I asked him to do. And inside I was desperately hoping he would come out of the darkness and explode with passion declaring his undying love for me ( freakin’ fairy tale brainwash) .. It never happened. Instead, he stopped coming.
4 months later he was engaged, to another colleague. He converted to Islam for her ( even thouh he used to make fun of Muslims) he extended his contract to stay an expat longer ( even though he was ready to go home ) he has no alcohol at home ( even though it s almost cultural for him to have a drink when comes home – the Dutch people are heavy drinkers ) ..
All this to say the explosion of passion did happen… Just not for me. And even though the inconsiderate guy who once stood me up, who forgot my birthday though he had heard about it 2 days before) who wouldn’t reply to some of my emails though he initiated them, who had girlfriends in every country he’d ever been to, who never had the guts to reply when I told him off but chose to avoid me for 3 weeks and the list goes on … Is probably still there, he did put all of that on hold for her.
I can’t get passed the hurt, besides the fact that I work with both of them so I have to see them everyday basking in sticky love bear happiness, I resent that they got a happy ending with a man who I had resolved myself to let go of because I thought he was incapable of doing anything for anyone else but his penis..and yet he went against everything he wanted and believed because he fell in love with a size 0 girl 10 years younger with a pout and LV bags.
I can’t help but feel inadequate, like something was wrong with me , like I lost – even though I’m very much aware that she won’t go very far with a man with erection issues.
The one thing I hold on to, is that he didn’t go and run his mouth and tell everyone, that he still stands up when he seems me to greet me and that the man I subconsciously was running away from and she will eventually find out she married him.
All this to say ( sorry for the rant it took for me to say it) that yes, you’re spot on and I was obviously meant to read this :
People don’t roll out different characters for different people”…”even if the situations are different and they appear to have ‘better’ relationships with other people, the same problem factors like, for instance, lack of empathy, lack of support, betrayal, actions not matching words, responsibility dodging or whatever are still there…
And I’ll be around when these problem factors creep out once the chemical unbalance vanishes to expose the reality of him.
Lyly I’m so glad your comment ended with the “People don’t roll out different characters for different people” quote. Yes all his mental, emotional and physical problems are all still there. All of ’em. And aren’t they going to be a big whomping disappointment in the marriage when they fully emerge in all their glory.
Seems to me, from reading comments, that the EU men who dump-n-walk, and then suddenly, out of nowhere, gain a serious girlfriend/fiancee/wife, need that suddenness… that speed… that fast-forwarding… to push through their plan before the new victim has time to notice everything that’s wrong with him. In this particular case, his motive for converting religion is to construct some pretty lame ‘proof’ that he’s all changed and different and new and shiny now. It’s a scam, frankly, and nothing more than flying a flag of convenience, because the one person he can’t hide from is himself.
It’s like each time he meets a woman, the handle on the nasty jack-in-the-box starts turning. As it’s clunking out its creepy pop-goes-the-weasel tune (how appropriate!), he knows he has x-amount of notes left to hurry up and put on a grand show, pretend to commit, pretend to love, try to move in together, maybe get a ring on the finger, before BANG the jack-in-the-box flies out and frightens everyone half to death.
These mega-fast moves seem a particular characteristic of EU men trying to fool themselves and everyone else into thinking they’re alright after all. That they just found the ‘right woman’ — yes the ‘right woman’ to manipulate and deceive to an unconsionable level. And it invariably results in their doing even more damage to others in the long run.
Because as Natalie says, “…the lack of empathy, lack of support, betrayal, actions not matching words, responsibility dodging or whatever are still there.”
Grizelda,
Oh my goodness, I love your analogies! A Jerk-in-the-Box, perhaps? I think you should make a collection of these analogies, in a book perhaps, along with illustrations. You could call it “Pop goes the AC”
I also appreciate you “right woman” clarifications for EUM’s. The exMM must have found one of these “‘right women’ to manipulate and deceive to an unconscionable level” in the form of his OOW, but the handle of THAT creepily singing jack-in-the-box seems to be working VERY slowly. After over ten years, either he hasn’t jumped out yet, or he jumped out and the OOW wasn’t scared. All that time and neither have left their (ill) spouses to be together properly. Maybe she is just as scary? A Jill-in-the-Box!
Learner,
Heh! Sorry it’s my cruel sense of humour that takes on the illustrative analogies. How about a pop-up book of analogies?? Turn the page and — surprise! — out pops a scary jerk-in-the-box who’s here to ruin your life. Turn the wheel and watch your charming new romantic connection turn into a married man with several FWBs and a serious personality disorder. Move the lever back and forth as the assclown blows hot, oops then cold, oops, then hot again, oops then cold… An excellent primer for teenage girls so they get some kind of idea who to avoid in future.
Your exMM and his OOW sound like they’re drowning in their own delusions. My best guess is, if they were each free and single, they would not give each other the time of day. Because no one seriously wants to take on anyone with the track records they’ve got. They’d no sooner set up house together when each of them would be shagging around with other people. You know what they say about “The only absolute indicator of a man’s (person’s) future behaviour is his (their) past behaviour.” Or what’s the other one about “When a man marries his mistress, a job vacancy opens up”, although I would absolutely amend that to say “When two cheaters leave their spouses and marry, TWO job vacancies open up”.
Griz,
I appreciate your take on the theoretical exMM-OOW joint household. I think OOW’s husband has been unable to have sex for some time, due to a severe neuro-muscular condition, so I can *almost* see where she would be desperate to have someone just hold her – thus the involvement with her friend’s husband (still – yuck!). The exMM himself has no excuse for mind-effing several women though. I would NOT want to sign up for either of the job vacancies created, though – the potential job description alone gives me the heeby-jeebies (must have very flexible availability to take on-call when needed by employer, pay range 12 to 100 crumbs per week, must own laptop and cellphone as these are preferred methods of communication, must trust unconditionally, some activities that may present health risks are involved – danger pay in the form of an occasional dinner out will be provided. please send resume and full-length picture to… ) No thanks!
I feel you on the trying hard not to imagine the ex happier with someone else. I think we just have to believe that karma will happen, whether it’s apparent to us or not. I love that shadenfreude concept you mentioned in another post. Not that I wish anyone misfortune, but honestly, I would prefer not to see someone gaining happiness after treating us so poorly! They are who they are – with us AND with other women. In your words, our brains *will* eventually join those dots!
Lyla
The whirlwind romance. Swept off her feet. The cliches express it perfectly. Can you see the problem? She doesn’t have a clue who hecreally is.
Mymble … Indeed, she sees him how I did at the beginning. It took me about 9 months to start questioning and another 6 to realize the worse .. Another 6 to accept and now I’m in my 8 month healing.. I realize that 2,5 years spent on him that I’ll never get back… But you’re right, it’s not that bad – I could have been married to him.
I’m so aware of all these thing. I don’t even want him back. But I cried so much over this man I really thought I would be happily settled loooong before he even came close.
It’s way too much ego and too much energy on very little… Why do we get ourselves in such situations?
Oh my Grizelda …POP goes the weasel indeed .. How spot on you are, and my head knows everything you said.
I actually didn’t think he would go through with it, I was waiting for the story where he backed off so I could go back to all them ‘such a beautiful love story’ gullible believers to gloat ..
I’m still waiting… Because I have seen the pictures of them on honey whatsitcall-ing as well as the wedding : it’s not there .. Whatever he’s pretending this is, is not it .. Nd poor size 0 25 year old pouting with her Louis Vuitton will only realize it when it’s too late which was about 1 year ago when they started dating.
On good days I like to think I was saved from something worse, that in the end this is major blessing in a very ugly disguise and that eventually I ll see it.
On bad days it annoys the living daylights out of me to see him prance around the office itch his stupidly proud and happy face because mister 35 going on 36 with a 20 something mindset got up himself a 20 something year old to be legit…
Now that I know though that his true self is in there as you so rightfully mention, and he knows that I know too.. I have to find a way to get over the resentment.
But I was an emotionnal push over so long, the type that excels at convincing herself it’s ok when clearly it isn’t .. And for once I allow myself to feel a certain way about a situation , but I have nooooooooo idea what to do with it.
Ideas?
Lyly,
“But I was an emotionnal push over so long, the type that excels at convincing herself it’s ok when clearly it isn’t .. And for once I allow myself to feel a certain way about a situation , but I have nooooooooo idea what to do with it.
Ideas?”
How about using what you do know about him to realize you would not want him as a life partner? So what if he’s prideful about his trophy woman?
You are NOT an emotional pushover any more. right? You are moving on to a healthier, happier way of being.
I totally get the resentment when the ex gets to be with another woman – esp at work. Feel the feelings, give them a meaning that supports YOU and your happiness, and keep on moving forward. Strength to you xo
Learner, thank you for this reminder. When I’m not caught up in Pms psychosis or ‘poor me boo-freakin’hoo land’ I manage to see how I got the better end of the deal.
I’m not an emotionnal pushover anymore, life made sure that habit would stop being an option.
I do have to say though that eventually you’re tired of the learning through growing pains .. I often long for ease, you know, meant to bes and serendipities.
Then I realize one of the reasons why things get so hard is because I resist them so darn much..
It’s beautiful though to feel understood and supported.
I can’t wait until he becomes a ‘I once met this guy who …’ Story on a girls’ night out – sushi involved of course…
Thank you again <3
“It’s like each time he meets a woman, the handle on the nasty jack-in-the-box starts turning. As it’s clunking out its creepy pop-goes-the-weasel tune (how appropriate!), he knows he has x-amount of notes left to hurry up and put on a grand show, pretend to commit, pretend to love, try to move in together, maybe get a ring on the finger, before BANG the jack-in-the-box flies out and frightens everyone half to death.”
Grizelda! EXCELLENT description!!
“These mega-fast moves seem a particular characteristic of EU men trying to fool themselves and everyone else into thinking they’re alright after all. That they just found the ‘right woman’ — yes the ‘right woman’ to manipulate and deceive to an unconsionable level. And it invariably results in their doing even more damage to others in the long run.”
True that!! Love your post!
Digging your jack-in-the-box analogy. Quite true, though. These folks (romantic or family or “friends” or otherwise) rarely make genuine change.
Ex-friend/pseudo-relationship, The Snake, married his victim last month. He told a friend that he’s “still in love” with me. Absolutely despicable. If she hasn’t figured him out already, hopefully she will sooner rather than later. Not my issue, not my problem.
There’s nothing new under the sun. It’s not about you, dear readers. Flush ’em & (slowly but surely) move on. 😉
lyly-
it must be awful to have to see them together all the time.
like everyone else said, he chose her because he can control her: she’s younger, was raised in a male-dominant religion and culture (sorry, whoever will get pissed off that i said that, its true), and is probably a virgin. it sounds like she also comes from a wealthy family. he converted religions? talk about hitting the reset button.
you shouldn’t even feel bad about this – his behavior isn’t evidence of how wonderful she is (although, in some sense she may be “right” for him because of all of the above), its evidence of what a freak he is.
bottom line: you ran from him for a good reason, even if you don’t consciously know what it is. so, you did the right thing. stick by your own actions. and he isn’t that special. someone else is, though. that’s the guy you really want – not this tool.
try to stop blaming yourself for his choice. that’s why you can’t let go of it – because you can’t stop deriding yourself, you’re convinced its your fault when it isn’t – the problem is that you DIDN’T do anything wrong, so don’t spend your life looking for a false negative.
try to see that it has nothing to do with you. you opted out. keep opting out.
Thank you Cc .. I do get caught in thinking that somehow I did something. At some point it was so hard hearing all the updates about them and seeing them around the office talking about each with everyone raving about how beautiful they were together that I actually started thinking it was probably a karmic backlash of something I had done in another life … Something so hurtful to someone that I deserved to be forced o watch how their love was unfolding.
Weirdly it kinda helped, because thinking this was just gratuitous randomness would’ve made me slightly psychotic.
That being said, underneath her sweet innocent face she does drink every now and then when her parents aren’t watching, she was supposed to Mary some guy before him but this guys family threatened to disown him if he I’d so he chose his family and we actually went to the same high school at if fervent years obviously and apparently she’s still infamous for being he biggest slut of her year.
There’s so much wrong in there and in all honesty, it s all ego .. It’s how did he find someone to love him before I did. It’s Bridget jones pity partying I know, and as you say at some point I have to trust that my intuition knew exactly what it did when I ran – apart from the completely forgettable sex – ..
Somehow that gives me comfort. My instinct of survival kicked in and it just might have saved my life.
I opted out, and so I shall keep doing. Awesome insight cc thank you 🙂
lyly-
ok, so she’s just as full of shit as he is. yes, they deserve each other.
i have a most recent theory about relationships in general, and it even incorporates why it hurts us so much when a guy moves on to someone we think is “better” than we are.
my crazy theory: we all, men and women, want a relationship, in large part, because we perceive it as allowing us to step into who we believe we are meant to be. and we need a partner who reflects that – and this gets influenced by family, friends, our own objectives, etc. and if we do not aim for a high enough incarnation of ourselves, we end up settling for someone who is not right for us. who we may then evolve out of.
now, apply my theory to Mr. Limpdick Fastforward and his formerly slutty bride – do you REALLY wish he were yours? now that you see his choice, and who he became, would you really want to be chosen by him? aren’t you glad you rejected him?
it rankles awfully when the other person finds someone before we do, it feels soooo unfair. and you’re a captive audience to their romance, it must make you want to pull your own skin off every day.
but having to watch it really hammers in the lesson – who we choose reflects what we think of ourselves, so we better think well and smart. we better love ourselves enough, or we’re screwed.
you chose well to begin with, honey. now just try to elevate your thinking a teeny bit, and don’t judge yourself about the ego reaction, and you’ll be ok.
I second your “crazy theory”, CC. And yes, let’s elevate what we think of ourselves. I shudder to think I thought so low of myself that I would date that arrogant, broke-ass fool.
I can’t believe how relevant this is to what I just went through last night. I was at an event and my ex was also there, laughing and seeming to be having a great time with another person. I wanted to warn that person! Because the same behaviors I experienced were inflicted on the ex before me, and the next person to come along will have to deal with the same lack of empathy, as you stated, the betrayal, being used for sex with nothing behind it to indicate a real relationship, etc. I can look at my ex with another person now and say, “Wow, so glad that isn’t me hanging around waiting for the crumbs to drop from the table.” People ask me why I’m not dating again though it’s been a year. I say, you know, I’m enjoying getting to know myself for the first time. When I’m sure I can trust myself to act in my own best interest, when I’m providing for myself what I was trying to get from last last disastrous non-relationship, then I’ll be ready for a real relationship that’s healthy. I could continue to blame myself for getting involved with this person and being gullible and overlooking all the red flags, but it’s just so draining. I need that energy for positive directions.
@Vermont–I could have written almost your same post last night (minus the bringing a date part). Haven’t seen my ex in months and we were both at an engagement party, and I half expected him not to be there. Like Nat says, they don’t roll out different characters for different people…he’s been an unreliable jerk to friends too, and him and the groom-to-be had a falling out last year. Regardless, I was pretty nervous about seeing someone who had made me feel so insecure, and I knew it would be a test of all that I’ve learned the past few months.
I show up (looking awesome, of course!) and who walks in right after me but HIM. He shouts ‘Boo!’ in my ear and then gives me the obligatory hug and kiss on the cheek. I didn’t want to make a scene so I allowed the interaction, but that was the only one. I had so much fun and for the first time it really started to sink in that attitude is everything, and my perspective can shape the kind of night I have. As a result, I ended up having a blast and being my normal shiny self 🙂 I talked to every single person in the party but him, although it wasn’t my intention to ignore (rather, he didn’t come up to me and I would have been polite if he had, I just didn’t have anything to say!)I think Nat’s line here is great: “I am the one who somewhere along the line has taken some meaning to imply that I ‘should’ feel guilt. ”
I have to admit though, there is a part of me that struggled with whether I handled it the proper way. Near the end of the nite I had heard from several mutual friends (unprompted) some negative things about him, some going so far as to say they liked me more :/ I didn’t want to engage any of that, and at that moment I started to pity him. I started feeling guilty, as though maybe I should have said something nice. I’m glad I didn’t act on this guilt or let my guilt change my behavior, because I don’t think much good would have come of it. What healthy or positive interaction could we have possibly had?? I don’t think in this short time much has changed, but part of me still blames myself a bit that I can’t change this dynamic.
As a sidenote: I’m also a little angry to have seen him, because it’s surreal to be in a room for hours with a person you used to know so intimately, who used to profess they wanted to marry you, etc etc…and it’s almost like this survivor’s guilt, where all his best friends are talking to me, I feel and look great, and yet I have this awful guilt because he still seems stuck in the same place and people don’t have much to say about him. I would never get back with him, but a little validating part of me hoped he saw me last night and thought ‘Wow, I could have had that and I blew it!’
I know you’re right, Natalie. But I’m having a hard time with this lately. It’s hard to see the EU guy with his new girl. It’s hard that I am perpetually single while these assclowns tend to ricochet from being with me to being more serious with someone else. It’s like I’m the last stop before they enter “Committedville.” I’m like the chick that stamps their passport, and off they go.
Listen, I KNOW that I don’t want him, I KNOW that he’s not good enough for me, I KNOW that he won’t be different with her. But it still hurts that these guys, even though very attracted to me, still look at me and go, “There’s no way.” It’s hard not to take from that that I’m TOO feisty, too outspoken, too upfront. I’m not rude or controlling (far from it), but I won’t put up with someone trying to treat me in an undignified manner. I think maybe men are used to women putting up with that, so they’re spoiled? At any rate, I just can’t live with that. I’ve been told by many people that I’m beautiful, hot, great personality, etc. Still, it’s hard to feel like I’m not doing SOMETHING wrong. It’s hard to think that it’s just all in my head.
Revolution, I don’t know if this will make you feel any better but I have had THREE exes who have gone on to MARRY the next woman they went out with after me. I try to think that I did a lot of good work with these men that although it meant they couldn’t have a workable relationship with me, it did enable them to improve themselves/focus their minds to the point where they wanted to make a majot comittment. I do not feel sad about this at all. I am quite proud and happy for them. However, none of these relationships were EU/AC so maybe that is what makes the difference. If my ex EU were to suddenly be able to make a meaningful relationship with AN Other maybe I wouldn’t be quite so thrilled!
Victorious,
I hear what you are saying to Revolution, and I get it. However, I am jealous! I want to be the one who goes on to marry someone wonderful after the relationship ends with the EUM/FF.
Thanks for understanding, Victorious. My mom keeps telling me, “Everyone goes through some heartbreaks before they meet the right one. Everyone!” So we just have to keep movin’, I guess. Better than stayin’ still.
Sheesh, I just re-read my last comment. Sounds pathetic, sorry. I think I’m feeling this way for a few reasons:
a) I just saw my EU on the beach with my two other friends (a couple) who have been very distant with me since things went south with the EU and I. It made me feel hurt and made me question if I made the right decision, or if I was overreacting, when I cut him out of my life. It also made me feel betrayed by these friends, who knew how the EU treated me. And here they all are, having fun without me, on the beach. Like nothing ever happened between all of us. I make good boundaries, I make the right decision, and I feel like I’M the one ousted from the group. And these are people whom I love dearly. It hurts.
b) I have a bit of a head cold today.
and
C) I’m about to go to a family gathering where I’m (as usual) the only person without a husband and children. And I’m 35. I love my family, and they don’t usually say anything to me about it, but I still feel like it’s a stigma that I’m still single.
Allright, now that I’ve outlined, in full detail, my crap mood, I’ll leave you all in peace. Sorry to be a Sensitive Suzy on you all, lol.
Revolution, I see myself as feisty, outspoken, beautiful, and the way you see yourself. When I was young men were
ofcourse attracted to to me, but fled in fear because they were, well ordinary.
I relayed my concerns about you to the man I am currently involved with(not the man who brought me to BR by the way) and asked him, why have you never been intimidated by me? He said, I like intelligent women.I like someone I can talk to. I said to him, how do I advise “Revolution”? she was me before I met you. He said, just tell her to be herself. I would love a feisty, articulate beautiful woman. There are some men like us out there.
Simple Pleasures,
Your kindness gave me pause. To not only consider what to say to me, but to run it by your man….and for a stranger! What a heart. Thank you for your words of advice. I really, really needed to hear them, and to hear your “success story”, because I gotta tell ya–I’ve been ready to hang the jersey up for good lately. It’s always darkest before the dawn, right?
Please thank your man for the advice, and also for being such a secure man that he looks for women like us.
Sending you warm thoughts of gratitude…..and ((HUGS))! 🙂
Revolution
I get it, I live in the deep South, I have to be honest, men here seem to me, much more than on either coast, to want “easier”, less opinionated women who they can mould. I am not saying that that is always the case, but not only I but serveral of my East Coast freinds who live here have said the same.
Look, some guys just don’t like strong women who have opinions. What you need to do is remind yourself that you only want me, who are strong enough, to want a strong woman right?
You will meet the right person when it is the time to happen I promise:)
Thanks dq!!! Though I donno about the coastal men being better….here in Cali, natural habitat of the metrosexual, us women have to compete with the man’s own love for HIMSELF! I swear, any man that uses more hair gel than me….there’s something wrong with that.
Thanks for the words of understanding. 🙂 You made me smile.
hah you made me laugh; I went to Berkeley and lived in SF for years, I forgot about those…ah the computer geeks who suddenly were all into themselves when the dot.com boom hit…so don’t miss those metrosexuals lol
revs-
c’mere honey. *hhhuuuuuuuuuuuug*
you’re not pathetic. it royally sucks. its hard to be a strong woman (and see your ex and your treacherous friends on the beach), most men can’t take it. and by strong, i don’t even mean strident or aggressive – i just mean not intent on overly pleasing.
if it helps, i feel like i’ll never find a partner. i’ve got lots and lots and lots going for me, but many guys look at me and think i’m too much. i think they’re too little (no pun).
recently i worked with another very strong, energetic woman. she was married to a really quiet, but very present guy. i asked her how it worked. she said words to the effect that you have to find the guy who doesn’t need to be the center of attention but who also won’t feel threatened when your energy comes into his space. she said that sometimes when she’s spazzing, he just says, “easy, relax” and its like a tonic for her and she relaxes.
its a very specific kind of guy who is not intimidated by a forthright woman. there’s nothing wrong with you (or me) although some guys will try to tell you there is because they’re intimidated. just keep moving on. don’t feel bad about you. we think you’re awesome.
*smooch*
CC,
I should’ve known that you were out there with your superhero outfit, ready to save the day! 🙂 ((huuuuuuuuggggs back))
I agree with you–there are definitely men that “didn’t get their juicebox.” Lol. That’s an expression a friend and I use with the little boys we’ve dated in the past. These men (notice I say “these” and not *all* men) ARE, in fact, too little for us. And guess what? They know it.
I don’t have time for such nonsense. I’m sure you don’t either, CC, being the kick-ass woman that you are. It’s not about being the 80s version of “supermom/woman” complete with briefcase, shoulderpads, and a baby on the hip while talking into an unusually large cell phone (it was the 80s after all). It’s about us being women who WILL love and respect our men, but who refuse to be treated without love, dignity, and respect in the process.
I like your story about your workmate. It made me laugh, because that’s usually the type of guy I end up attracting too. They are usually quiet and a bit unsure of themselves, which I think is adorable until the mindf***ery starts, and then it isn’t so cute anymore. But if I can find a “non-assclown” who fits into this category, I’ll be happy as a clam.
Let’s not let the bastards get us down, CC. Are you with me?
yes, revs-
totally with you.
and here’s the clue in what you wrote: and a bit unsure of themselves. find the guy who is sure of himself, but not an arrogant jerk, and who is also capable of and wants to offer the love, dignity and respect you must have. that’s the guy you want and need. you need a man we can open-heartedly respect. and so do i.
and if i believe that man is out there for you, then i must believe he is out there for me. …not the same man, of course…you know what i mean…
*smooch*
CC, yes, you’re so right. Sure of himself, NOT arrogant (which isn’t even in the same effin’ BALLPARK as “sure of himself”).
He’s (well, THEY) are out there for the both of us. 😉
Revolution, you are only 35! We have some similarities, I am definitely outspoken and feisty! Lets not our losers to change us! Simple Pleasures are right, you will meet the guy, who will love and respect you for who you are… All the best honey, stay strong:-) x
Thanks Little Star!!! I agree; let’s not let the losers sour us!!! What a sweetie you are! 🙂
Sometimes 35 seems like I’m old as the stones, especially since everyone around me is married with children. I feel like the spinster aunt or something. But, on the other hand, I can just jump in my Mustang and cruise on out while everyone else is still struggling with their diaper bags. So I guess there’s something in that. I guess we gotta be grateful wherever we are at any given time in life, right? 🙂
“Change the meaning, change the feeling. I’m living by BR’s ethos – reclaim you, offload your baggage. I already feel lighter.”
Natalie, I so feel you on the guilt response to the family/father issues. I have also been left with a lot of guilt, which was probably exploited by my family at times. I am the person in the family who will always agree to help out, while rarely asking for any help myself. Through experiencing my early childhood family dynamics (especially constant criticism from my father), I internalized that “not good enough” feeling. I think the fact that I am the oldest sibling also facilitated the feeling that things that go wrong are my fault. I am working on changing that perspective after my beliefs and values have been brought into question with the exMM involvement, with therapy, and with reading BR.
Here are some belief “conversions” I hope to make (the conversion designated by a “>”):
1) Dad criticized me all the time, was rarely “there” for me emotionally or physically = I am not a worthwhile person > dad is not emotionally healthy, and could not relate to me in a healthy way no matter how I was as a person. He does love me in his own way, in the only way he knows how. I have nothing to feel guilty for. It was about him, not me.
2) Mum rarely “protected” me from my dad’s criticisms or my friends from dad’s flirting with them = my mum doesn’t really care about me > mum also did not have the emotional wherewithal to deal with my dad’s shortcomings, especially when he had been drinking. She does love me but didn’t know how to protect herself OR her children. It’s about her, not about me.
3) The exMM lied to me for years, had a wife and original OW on the go for the entire time we were together (unbeknownst to me) and didn’t do anything to help improve the anguish I felt at not being able to have a full-time relationship with him = I was not good enough for him to have a real relationship with me. He saw me as “less than” the other two women. He was a predator who used me and never did love me > the exMM was lying and cheating on all three (+?) women. He is unhappy and trying in an unhealthy way to get his emotional and physical needs met. No matter how much bending over backwards or “loving” him I did, he was not, IS not, going to change. He may have had feeling (of love?)for me but he is not capable of having a true, loving relationship with me It’s about him, not me.
*However* – this part WAS and IS about me: I did not have boundaries in place to keep my best interests at heart. I also looked for love in an unhealthy way. I had some of my needs met by the exMM, too, but not all of them. *I* am responsible for making sure I live an authentic life that meets my needs, respects my own boundaries, and respects the needs and boundaries of others.
Oh, how these new meanings improve how I feel about me, relationships, and life in general. Thank you soo much Natalie for helping to open my eyes to all of this.
Learner, nice to see this resolve in you. Keep it up!
I love this post, and Learner I like the way you’ve applied it to your situation. If I’m going to free myself from the effects of that damaging ‘relationship’ I’m going to have to work on changing my perspective too. It’s time to get my thinking straight so here goes. The exMM has ignored my loss, he has been cold, cruel, dismissive, and unsupportive. This is ‘not’ a sign of my worthiness or rather unworthiness. It is ‘not’ a sign that I am unimportant and undeserving and his callous behaviour is ‘not’ to be used as a stick to beat myself up with. Rather, this behaviour is a sign of his basically insensitive and cruel nature. He is likely to be this way with others not just me. His lack of empathy and compassion is actually a sign of ‘his’ unworthiness. He, is not worthy of my time, energy, or love and I’m going to stop chasing and expending energy on someone who doesn’t care or who is unable to care. It really is taking a long time for the penny to drop, but I’m getting there. Next step is to try and work out why I was involved in that disastrous ‘relationship’ in the first place. I’ll leave that for another day, but today I do feel lighter. Thanks Natalie.
Lilly,
Your perspective-shifts are awesome too! Glad you feel lighter, and are experiencing that feeling of peace that we all have wished for you. You *are* worthy, you had family dynamics that may have contributed to how you look for love, and you are gaining insight and strength by the day. Welcome back to NC, sister!
As an aside, this week will be the anniversary of when I lost my baby/fetus at 3 months, several years ago. The doctors didn’t know the sex of the baby, but I always imagined him to be a son. I imagine him celebrating a “memorial day” up in heaven, and your son is invited. Bless their little souls xo
Learner, my last encounter with the creature from the deep lagoon turned out to be a good thing and my perspective-shifts are continuing. After a series of ridiculous emails I suddenly realised that this man was,once again, enjoying manipulating my feelings and I’m letting him! The question was; why was I letting him? I suspect it all comes down to avoidance and not wanting to really feel the pain of losing my baby. All this time,I’ve been struggling to understand why he doesn’t care and believing it’s because we’re not good enough. I wanted him so much to feel something for the baby, but I can’t control what he feels and I can’t make him care, but I can put a stop to the cruelty and emotional abuse. I’m changing the focus. His lack of care doesn’t define my baby or our relationship. Learner, our babies may be physically gone, but they’re still with us in spirit. I’m beginning to understand that I need to let go. I’m imagining that my son is playing chase with yours. He’s happy and laughing. I’m smiling too; I don’t want him to turn around and see me cry. Bless you too Learner and thank you to everyone here who has helped me work this out.
Lilly,
You are so right – we cannot make the creatures from the deep lagoon care, we cannot control them.
You are on the right track realizing you *can* stop his behaviour from continuing to hurt you with any new pain. You have opted out – for good, it seems, this time. Fantastic!
You and your son are *too good* for him. Let go of the creature – he is quite at home in the deep lagoon. Keep your son’s memory in your heart – he does not belong anywhere deep or dark, but in the light of your gentle, loving spirit.
More hugs to you, Lilly, as you continue your journey to self-awareness, light, and love xoxo
Magnolia – Happy Canadian Thanksgiving! One of the things I am thankful for is BR, and the insights and encouragement from people like you in the BR community. So…thank you!
Excellent Learner. In Natalie’s Self-esteem e-course, she has an exercise to help us challenge those internalized, unchallenged beliefs. I love your “belief conversions”, perfect description of the process. Even more profound for me is your comment: “I am responsible for making sure I live an authentic life that meets my needs, respects my own boundaries, and respects the needs and boundaries of others.” That’s the bottom line or top line. That’s the BR ethos. BTW, I am the eldest of five siblings and my old belief was that when something went wrong with one of my siblings, it was my fault. You’ve prompted me to do my own belief conversion and my self-esteem e-course homework…thank you. I’m going to bed tonight thinking about my belief conversion.
Runner,
Thanks. We have many similarities in our families and relationship histories. That self-esteem e-course sounds wonderful – I must look into it when Natalie runs it again. Thanks for your suggestion to read the Dreamer book. It wasn’t part of the bundle I ordered in the summer, but I will order it now.
I hope your third date is going well today, and look forward to hearing how it went, and how your BR learning and increasing self-awareness played a role in how you made meaning of it all. Cheers.
Hey Learner,
Fortunately or unfortunately, we have many similarities as do so many of us. The self-esteem e-course has helped me to dig deeper into identifying my core values, challenging old beliefs, and establishing/enforcing boundaries. Because I’m old fashioned, Nat’s exercises have helped me because I have to write things down. It’s just my opinion but every former OW ought to read the Dreamer book. It nailed me. So, third date update: It went well. We met for dinner and things were calm. We are planning a hiking date for next Saturday. It’s all so very ordinary. At the end of the evening he did say that he was very sexually attracted to me. I said I don’t do sex before I know somebody because it messes with my mind and we don’t actually know one another after approximately 10 hours. He laughed, in a nice way, and said that he agreed! I changed the feeling and the meaning. I think most of all, I understand, truly understand, how important it is for me to know somebody before I hop in the sack. It is a boundary. I haven’t done the Dreamer thingy with this guy, although I was a bit nervous cos of the third date rhetoric. I didn’t buy into it. (Get the Dreamer book) Right before I left, I re-read “Thinking About Dating: Good Things and Bad Things to Look Out For”. That is really helpful Natalie. I don’t leave home without BR and you all are with me on every date! Yes, you really can change the meaning and the feeling. Although between just us, the dude is dreamy. I still don’t know him and I don’t know if there are core common values. This dating as a discovery phase is sure slow. Given the alternative, I’ll take slow. Hiking date next weekend. Hiking always reveals a ton cos there are no distractions. So far, it’s calm, easy, no issues. No drama. I’m like huh? No struggle, no trying to be the exception to the rule, no fantasy? No waiting for him to call? No ruminating? What’s a former FBG to do? It’s just like normal? It feels a bit nice and a bit like I’ve flat lined, although I’ll take flat lined any day of the week compared to my past. It is slow and peaceful. That’s BR.
😀 Brill to read, runner.
Runner,
Your third date synopsis is wonderful! You enjoyed each others company, there was no struggle, you asserted your “no-sex-before-knowing-someone” boundary and he agreed, and you have plans for a hiking date next weekend. AND he’s dreamy. I am so happy for you!
Yes, you have convinced me the Dreamer book is required reading for former OW’s. Ordering it as soon as I finish reading the new comments 🙂
Runnergirl, I’m rooting for you, but want to protect you too.
In your old fashioned way write down your words : very ordinary, calm, easy, no issues, normal, no
ruminating, slow and peaceful…
core values. Read it before the hike. (take peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for lunch).
“This dating as a discovery phase sure is slow” and so it should be. What’s the rush? You
already know what sex is all about (now sex that is passionate and tender is something worth waiting for),
you know what marriage is like, what parenting is about.
What you’d like to find out in the discovery phase is if someone can dig the mature adult you have become. Could someone share a calm, easy, normal,ordinary, slow peaceful companionship and enjoy aging with you? Sharing common interests like hiking.
I’d suggest you reread Nat’s
article “10 signs that a Guy wants you just for sex, point #2”. Just be careful. He knows he’s hot. When you see Dreamy on Sat. don’t be Dreamer.
I’ll wear my llbean boots and check out the foliage next Sat.
and dedicate my hike to you.
Thanks ladies. Steady and slow, you are correct Simple Pleasures, what’s the rush. Thanks for the tips on the PBJ’s . I re-read the article you suggested, I think I almost have that one memorized! You are right about #2. What constitutes dreamy for me has changed! Thank you.
Have fun on your hike in your llbean boots.
yes, brava, learner. good logic. and good for you.
thanks cc. Natalie’s writing, and insightful comments from posters like you, are starting to sink in!
learner good for you; ah how I wish i could find a dreamy man to not dream about lol!
Struggling with that now with my almost 20 year old son. My guilt for my parenting, which wasn’t perfect, but in true reality, I did the best I could with what I knew at the time, and I did a lot of great things, too, has kept me stuck and enabling, not allowing me to let him OWN HIS OWN BEHAVIOR, FEELINGS, OR CHOICES. So difficult, especially when it is thrown in your face, but after one last boundary bust/blatant disrespect and a “you are looking for a reason to get mad at me”, so crystal clear. If he chooses to see it that way, I am sorry, but I am NOT RESPONSIBLE
Oh loj, I’m so struggling with my 23 yro daughter and my guilt for my lapses in my parenting. I’m precisely in that spot between recognizing my enabling behavior and not allowing her to own her own behavior. It is smack in my face at the moment and I’m feeling guilty as hell. She was arrested for DUI four weeks ago, I was there as she was in the back of the police car headed to jail. She cooperated completely with the police officers. There was nothing I could do. I went to the jail first thing the next morning and waited all day for her release. She was totally traumatized, humiliated, and shamed. I am too. Since she is an adult, I tried to provide support which was rejected. I tried to assist her in getting legal counsel which was rejected. Now she faces the hearing on Tuesday and she has NO legal counsel, other than me and I know absolutely nothing about criminal law. I’m beside myself. I feel tremendous guilt for not getting her an attorney even though she shut me out. It is so difficult when “kids” are “adults”. I know this isn’t about us but it is really different when it is your kid and your kid is in legal trouble even though she is an adult and wants to handle it herself. I guess I have no choice. She is an adult and will have to own her behavior in court on Tuesday. But god do I feel guilty…she wants to plead guilty. So do I.
Oh Runnergirl,
Sounds like a stressful time, and I’m sorry to hear it. I don’t have any children, but I was reading your story and thinking about it, instead, from the perspective of your daughter. Having never met her, of course, I can only project my own thoughts onto her. Maybe they will be helpful, maybe not. So please bear with me.
When I was about your daughter’s age, I got a ticket for going over 100mph on the freeway (in a Toyota Tercel, no less. Sheesh.) Anyway, I didn’t tell my mother about the ticket because I was humiliated, scared, and felt intense GUILT over it. I went to court on my own and pled guilty. It was scary as f**k, but I did it to avoid letting my mom down. Now, I know that it isn’t the same as a DUI, but it WAS a misdemeanor (reckless driving, anything over 100mph). So it was a big deal.
Now, obviously, you did know about your daughter’s DUI. I can imagine that she feels even MORE humiliated and guilty, because you do know. I’m guessing her refusal for legal counsel (though maybe naive) and her wanting to plead guilty is her way of trying to own what she did and not put it on you. She’s trying to get back a little respect and authority over her life after doing something she feels ashamed of. That’s my two cents.
Sorry runner, to hear this. Maybe it’s a lesson she needs to learn. A sore one, but that’s what makes it a lesson. Maybe let her learn it. Then give her a cuddle. Hugs to you from me.
Struggling with that now with my almost 20 year old son. My guilt for my parenting, which wasn’t perfect, but in true reality, I did the best I could with what I knew at the time, and I did a lot of great things, too, has kept me stuck and enabling, not allowing me to let him OWN HIS OWN BEHAVIOR, FEELINGS, OR CHOICES. So difficult, especially when it is thrown in your face, but after one last boundary bust/blatant disrespect and a “you are looking for a reason to get mad at me”, so crystal clear. If he chooses to see it that way, I am sad for him that that is his perception, but I am NOT RESPONSIBLE, I cannot “fix it”, and my believing/buying into it harms HIM and ME. I have to let it go and let him learn on his own as HE chooses. Oy.
Letting our kids go is the hardest thing I’ve ever encountered. I so want to “fix it” but I can’t. I flipping can’t “fix it”! I’m so frustrated I could scream…well I am screaming. I have to let her go and let her learn on her own as she chooses. It feels more frustrating because I KNOW she needs a lawyer but won’t she won’t face the reality. She was so remorseful and traumatized. There is so much going on is all I can do is focus on the legal aspects. Good luck to you with your son loj. I don’t know who figured out that these kids are adults.
lo J and runner
I have done some reading that suggests people are not really “adults” until they are about 25. Good for both of you for asking your kids to be accountable. Runner, it sounds like your daughter already feels accountable and may have thought through her consequences based on what she pleads? That is the meaning I infer from what you have written (altho I acknowledge I am going going on the bare-bones info) I hope all goes well for her on Tuesday! Goodness knows raising children is a challenge. My “adult” daughter went out last night with friends, and I haven’t heard from her today. I always fear the worst will happen, but just have to trust her and hope for the best, I suppose. Letting our kids go is a struggle, yes!
Sheesh Learner (and all other moms out there, Runnergirl too),
Reading your comments, I’m feeling immensely guilty now for all the worry I put my mother through. I’m 35 now, and no broken bones or bad marriages, and I am a functioning member of society. So hang in there. If your kids are anything like I was, it’s a rocky road. But you’ll get there in the end.
….I’m gonna go call my mom now….
Rev,
I hope you and your mum had a good chat! It’s OK – stressing over the safety of children out clubbing is part and parcel of motherhood. My daughter is still in her (late)teens, and doesn’t always think to send a quick text to let me know she’s safe. She survived Saturday night, and so did I! The real scary part will be when she starts a relationship – she has only had a few “dates” and has never liked a boy enough to have an actual “boyfriend”. She speaks of wanting someone who has the same beliefs and passions as her – she is a child in my eyes, and yet seems wiser than me in some ways. I still want to get her Grizelda’s pop-up “spot the AC” primer though, just to be safe!
Learner,
I’m glad you and your daughter both survived Saturday night! 🙂 I don’t know how you moms do it; I would be a basketcase if I had kids. As it is, my mom points to her white hair and says to me, “See this? This is because of YOU!” She says it half-jokingly. Only half, lol. 🙂
LOVE your idea about giving your girl the AC pop-up book. 🙂 Sounds like she’s pretty “on it” already by foreseeing that she wants someone to share her “beliefs and passions.” Good start!
Hey ladies, thanks for the support. Rev, I think you are correct. She is owning this and insisting on handling it in her own way, which isn’t my way cos, I guess, we are separate people. I felt that dramatic shift (again) when I finally had to let go this morning and accept that she wasn’t going to see an atty. I sat there with the phone in my hand itching to dial the number but couldn’t for the life of me figure out what I would say. “My daughter got a DUI and won’t schedule and appt to talk with an atty but can I?” It was precisely what Nat describes in so many posts of making my daughter’s life all about me. I felt guilty but this morning, the day before the hearing, it dawned on me that there was simply nothing I could do. I had visions of making the appt and dragging her kicking and screaming. It reminded me of the feeling I had when she decided not to return to school back East. I couldn’t drag her onto the plane and I couldn’t go to school for her!I can’t believe I was so immersed in guilt and doing exactly what Natalie said and didn’t see it. So yet again, the universe and Natalie helped me to see that it’s not all about me. I did feel immediately lighter this morning. Learner, glad your daughter is home and safe. Is all we can do is trust and hope for the best.
PS. Could I get a copy of the AC pop-up book?
Runner,
Thanks for sharing this story. When you really see how it doesn’t make sense to jump in and try to run one’s own kid’s life, even for their “own good”, it becomes dang near impossible to consider doing it for a man who is supposed to be one’s adult partner.
Not that I knew that when I signed up to be with the last AC – I thought he “needed” to be taught about “love” from a kind, well-meaning soul (me). Ha. He wasn’t even my own kid. But he sure could decide to ignore my advice and roll his eyes at my (misplaced maternal) pleas for better behaviour as if he were a teenager.
Well you can kick my butt i text , and i burnt my hand text a missing my friend hope you well and happy , got a reply im okay hope you okay and no more , because i felt low because that stupid stuid connection i feel he does not , but leason learned and back on the wagon , i was low but i was doing well , id spent the night with someone i see ever now and then it made me feel low and my toxic friend was full of doom and gloom and i reached out , why would he care he has enough ego strokes doesnt nered mine . I get back on with it x
Tired, I recently put my hand back in the fire, but it’s actually turned out to be a good thing. Yes, it hurt, but it’s as if I needed to make sure. Is he really that uncaring, cold, and cruel? The answer is a resounding YES. Nothing I can do to change that. It is an acknowledgement of the facts. A few days later and I feel strangely peaceful. I’ve accepted it. NC is back in place. Sending lots and lots of encouragement your way xxx
Tired
He’s not your friend. Chalk it up to experience and lose his number. Nice meal and a warm bath for you.
I am well, Learner, thank you. Took me SO LONG to get the “people are who they are” lesson. I thought I either turned ’em that way or if only I were more “whatever”, they’d be capable of loving me, telling the truth, keeping their penis in their pants!! Wow. I sure thought I was all mighty! Lol!! Freeing to learn otherwise. (Controlling the world, and sucking at it, is very wearisome.)
Ms Learner, SO happy for you’re progress!! It keeps getting better!!!
Learner … love what you wrote about your parents/the exmm. I think that viewpoint keeps us from being stuck in the anger. They did the best they could (from their perspective). Could they do better?? Yes. But for whatever reason, they choose not to. It works for them or they don’t know there’s better. (And by better, i mean getting away from feelings of shame, blame, guilt, anger, etc) I dont know. I guess its really none of my business. Lol. Does it make me better than? No. Just different. On a different page, so to speak. I feel sad that they are stuck, because it is so painful to be in that place, but move forward and rejoice in my freedom, love of life, new optimism and better choices that I make for me and my family to do that. And pray for their peace as well, while keeping appropriate boundaries. I really believe we were made to enjoy life.
Lo J
” if only I were more “whatever”, they’d be capable of loving me, telling the truth, keeping their penis in their pants!! Wow. I sure thought I was all mighty! Lol!! Freeing to learn otherwise. (Controlling the world, and sucking at it, is very wearisome.)”
I agree! Glad to hear you are well, and thanks for your continued encouragement. I like your ideas of not getting stuck in anger. I think the anger was needed as a protective mechanism, but after a while that protection is not needed in the same way, and acceptance and forgiveness are needed to fully move forward. I love your optimism here 🙂 We *were* made to enjoy life!
Entertain another perspective!
Hell yes. I’ve been thinking about this one all day and want to throw something out here which might help someone else too.
I took the perspective of a disinterested observer of my sister’s behaviour — just as a little experiment. Having spent my entire first 18 years of life with her, having been raised together, and being genetically almost duplicates, I know her inside-out, back-to-front. I can predict exactly how she will act or react in any given situation as well as what she will say or think. I’m her greatest fan and her greatest critic. Clearly, I love her as a sister but can think very precisely and pin-sharp about her motives, her attitudes, her actions. Nothing about her is in any way unpredictable or a mystery to me. I’ve witnessed it all. I was there. I know her ‘form’ better than she knows it. And her form is… her never-changing self. The quintessential ingredients from day one are all still there, all still working, all still making her up.
She’s now in her mid-40s. Her friendships are with different people today than when we were growing up, but she’s exactly the same with them as with the crowd back in school. She acted a certain way with her boyfriends in high school, which was exactly the same as she was with her boyfriends in college, which was exactly the same as she was with her boyfriends in her ‘dating wildnerness years’ in her 20s, which was and is exactly the same as she behaves with her now-husband of 17 years. She’s older, but her behaviour with them all has been continuously the same.
I accept this without question because, hey, that’s my sister we’re talking about. I know her. She is SHE. I think some of you probably feel exactly the same about your close sibling if you happen to have such a one.
So… Why the devil would I ever imagine that the exEUM, about whom my thoughts are admittedly muddied with hurt and twisted emotion after years of callous treatment and affection starvation, can’t be held to the same SAMENESS? The same continual and predictable patterns of behaviour which I know to be true? Why does my imagination try to torture me with images of him treating someone else differently and better? If I had conjured up images of my sister behaving like a totally different person with some man other than her husband, say — differently and better — I’d laugh my socks off at the parody I’d made of her. It’d be a ridiculous and illogical thought. It’d never happen, because she has one character and one character only to offer to the world.
Ipso facto. The ex-EUM follows the same rules of physics and chemistry as my sister does, and as we all do. He has one character and one character only to offer to the world. If he’s a lying, manipulative, callous, emotionally-battering sod with me, he was and is a lying, manipulative, callous, emotionally-battering sod with all women before and after me.
C’mon brain and connect those dots.
Oh Griz, I so want to believe this too! I think it’s true 99.9% of the time that these ACs never change, never learn, never mature. I want to believe that my ex hasn’t morphed into Mr. Wonderful, Caring and Sensitivity since dumping me for a younger, prettier woman. But how do you stop that knife of envy and resentment from continually stabbing you when you have pretty good evidence that he indeed HAS changed?? What if he IS happy, his new relationship IS a success and he IS treating the girlfriend like a queen?
Through a bizarre series of circumstances, I had to be in my ex’s office recently (we work for the same company but I’ve been able to avoid him successfully and go NC for the most part for almost a year) because our boss directed me to get something off his computer. The ex was away for the week. By the way, no one in the office knows of our relationship so I had no basis to tell my boss, “Um, I’d really rather not…”
So there I am sitting at his desk, feeling incredibly surreal and uncomfortable. Happy pictures of her are all over. And there was a card sitting next to his computer which I knew immediately was from her. “Go ahead,” the demons in my brain whispered. “Read it.” And I did. Oh, what a foolish thing to do. There it was, sentence after sentence, of how happy she was with him, how he’d captured her heart and fed her soul, how he was the dream man she’d been waiting for, how she’d never before been treated with such care and love… They’ve been together for over a year, so this isn’t the first flush of passion and newness talking. Sounded like the real deal to me.
Gurgle, gurgle. That’s the sound of all those months of NC and healing down the drain. Back to square one with the envy and resentment and inner torment of “Why is he treating her better than me? What’s wrong with me? Why her and not me?” etc, etc. Damn.
I know better than to go down that road. I will struggle out of this pit and climb back on the wagon again. It will get better. I just have to admit (to get this out of my system once and for all), I RESENT HIS HAPPINESS. I resent that he got what I want – a successful relationship with someone who’s crazy about him. I resent that he didn’t have to endure any loneliness as he went from woman to woman before finding her. I resent that he’s having a wonderful time with lots of fun and sex and companionship and I’ve gone back to the crushing aloneness I’ve lived with for years before him and will likely continue for a long time into the future. I resent that he’s suffered no karmic consequences for treating me like crap. Above all, I resent the humiliation I have to feel when I admit to myself that I don’t know how to get what he has.
(Deep breath…) I just had to vent today. It helps to share this with the wonderful women here who know what this feels like. What the hell is the matter with me? I don’t want to be this angry, resentful woman! I should be happy if he’s changed and improved himself. I should be happy that he’s not creating misery elsewhere. Maybe this other woman deserves some happiness in her life and he, for some inexplicable reason, is able to give it to her. So I have to let it go and accept this reality, if it indeed is reality. He’s happy. He’s moved on. I know I’d feel much better if I could wish him well, but I just can’t.
Today I feel sadder but no wiser.
Sadder but Wiser, honey.
Oh, how I know how you feel (reference my comments above, from yesterday). I read your comment and felt that twinge in my gut, because I feel for you. Let me first say, though, that that card you read doesn’t PROVE anything. She could *still* being going through the honeymoon phase with him after all of this time. These ACs and EUs are hard to get to know, and so it’s very possible.
Second, have you ever thought that maybe she’s so content with him because she’s just as dysfunctional as HE is? That maybe THAT’S why all this “soulmate” clap-trap in the card?
Listen, you reap what you sow. That’s a universal law that none can escape from. It just IS. Whether we’re around to see it or not. I may not be seeing it (yet?) with my ex-EU and his new girl, but I am seeing it now with my dad, who wasn’t around my whole childhood. Now he wants a closer relationships with me, wants to make up for all of those years. But I just can’t give it to him. I don’t have it in me. It’s sad. But it’s his actions coming to roost.
I know that aloneness you speak of. I really, really do. But you’ve been able to use this time to BUILD yourself, to know yourself, to heal, to grow, to refine. This guy hasn’t. He’s jumped around, in anxiety (NOT love) from relationship to relationship in order to hide from himself. He can’t hide forever.And when that time finally comes, he won’t be equipped to deal with what he sees. Don’t envy him.
Pray for them both, and move on. You’re harvest time WILL come.
Ah Sadder But (you are very very much) Wiser,
I turn a cynical eye to any man who turns his desk into a girlfriend shrine (“look everybody what a great sensitive boyfriend I am!”).
He is the same man you knew. The same man. He hasn’t changed at all, and least of all has he changed his attitudes and overall behaviour. As Natalie said, “You’re suggesting that they’ve had a whole character change for you or after you…” Which is simply impossible. He’s just getting a different response from a different person.
At the moment he’s blowing hot, that’s all. And his handiwork is getting a pretty over-the-top response he’s quite proud of (admittedly, she’s only about as old as a toddler and so reacts like an overexcited toddler and clearly doesn’t know any better… yet). Why else would he immaturely display this shrine, including an excruciatingly personal greeting card on his desk meant to be seen by all and sundry — including you? That’s serious assclown territory.
How do you know that he didn’t begin blowing lukewarm as a result of that card? I don’t think he’d display on his desk the next card that followed — with a cartoon of a sad puppy holding a flower on the front of it next to the words “I Sowweeeee” — and inside the inscription “I dunno what I said, I dunno what I done, but know dat I wuv you and you the only one. SWAK xx”.
Yes I’m speculating, but you get my point. She will not be as happy as that card all the time. That card is just being displayed as ‘evidence’ that someone is being driven insane by him. Maybe that card was prompted by a hideous and hurtful stand-up argument they’d just had about his habits or behaviour or inaccessibility. You’ve seen how this guy operates and he’s just another EU assclown operating from the same EU assclown manual. She isn’t getting anything ‘new & improved’. She’s just overreacting to his blowing hot exactly like a very young, immature, gauche, slightly pathetic child would. Does this make him happy? Or does this just make him feel more in control of her and her feelings? If it’s her feelings he gets a kick out of controlling, he’s going to do quite a demolition job on her psyche sooner or later.
Remember, his entire objective in life is not to change. He only has one ‘him’ to offer the world, and the same one you got is the same one she’s getting.
Sadder
A year is still in the honeymoon phase. I Had a few long term relationships that lasted a few years but not longer. A year doesn’t mean forever.
Also, I’ve had letters like that and I’ve written letters like that. Didn’t mean the relationships were healthy. In fact they were v dysfunctional. Sometimes these letters are just a person enjoying their own words.
So the card proves nothing but even if they are living happily ever after (which is a fantasy, it is never perfect – all relationships require compromise and sacrifice, but not the kind we’ve been doing), it is no longer your concern. When people break up they meet someone else. So will you and you won’t even remember what you saw in him. That’s my experience and I thought I was so in love with my ex. My relationship with him was less than ten percent of what it is with the boyfriend. There is better for you.
What jumps out is that you were unhappy before you met this man. You can’t hold him responsible for that and you can’t hold him responsible for your present or future unhappiness. It’s not about being treated like a queen or having lots of sex and fun or finding a dream man. It’s loving and caring for yourself,finding someone who loves and cares for himself, and then loving and caring for each other with the joy, sorrow, sacrifice, risk, vulnerability, commitment, compromise, laughter and tears that entails. If you can ditch the fantasy, which includes imagining that they have the key to the magic kingdom (no one does), you will take a big step forward.
sadder but wiser-
read everybody’s comments. then read grace’s and gina’s 5 more times.
and this: YOU must get behind you and STOP comparing yourself to her. you must believe that you are deserving of the love you envision SO MUCH that you start giving it to yourself right now. right NOW!!! when you feel entirely validated and loved by yourself, then you will see that he couldn’t possibly have been all that great, the right man for you. yeah, he might be great on paper, but look back – see any flags? any flags at all? lack of empathy, i’m thinking? maybe a little short in the compassion/generosity department?
and here’s an exercise for the reader: what kind of guy leaves a super-mushy card from his woman on is desk? at work? for all to see? when he’s away for a week?
then, after all that, if you still need it, c’mere … *huuuuuuuuuuugs sbw*
hey cc,
about the exercise: yes!
That’s a very important re-focus on this particular situation.
It might be hurting to discover this kind of card between an ex and his new gf, but really, who puts (or uses) something this intimate on a work desk? Already seems disrespectful by him to their intimacy.
Sadder by Wiser,
I am sending you lots of hugs and warm happy thoughts today!
Ok. Now listen up! There is NOTHING wrong with YOU! YOU are good enough. In fact, YOU were too good for this guy!! This man was NOT the right man for YOU! It’s okay to feel what you are feeling, but take your focus off of how wonderful YOU THINK his relationship with the new woman is because you don’t really know what is going on behind closed doors (look at Seal and Hedi Klum). Instead, place the focus back onto yourself. What do YOU want in a relationship? What kind of man are YOU looking for that will make you happy (this guy wasn’t the first guy you ever dated I’m sure). Speak out loud the kind of man that YOU want and need with conviction! Before he can come to you though, YOU have to have done the work on yourself. You don’t know what life has in store for you and what’s coming next. Your life isn’t over yet. You can find yourself alone and depressed today, and happy and joyful tomorrow. Visualize yourself being happy. I once read a story on Dear Abby about a woman who was devasted (understanably) after being stood up at the alter on her wedding day. One year later, she was thanking her ex-fiance for standing her up because if he hadn’t of done that, she would not have met and married her wonederful husband. It turned out that the guy she ended up marrying was far better than the one she would have married! So you never know. Focus on doing YOU. Make yourself happy. Have a postive outlook. And like Nat says, “Change the meaning, change the feeling.”
Gina,
You made me giggle with your “Now YOU listen up!” Ha! This was such a nice message to read, so thanks for the encouraging words. I know they were meant for Sadder but Wiser, but they benefited me as well! 🙂
Me too! 🙂
Aww dear Sadder but Wiser, I wish I was there to hug you! I do not think your ex is changed, he cannot change for one person in a period of one year! Probably she is more accommodating and putting up with his shit more than you did! WHO knows?!OK, a card, so what, maybe she wrote for special occasion? Please do not feel jealous:-( I know it is SO hard to move on and sometimes its piss me off how quickly some men move on! Let him be a a last chapter in your “old” book, close it and start a “new” book with new people in your life. Please try to avoid his company and you will feel better one day. ALL the best xx
Sadder
anyone who calls her boyfriend ‘the dream man she’s been waiting for’ is living in cloud cuckoo land; there’s no such thing as a ‘dream man’. the card tells you more about her than it does about him – that she’s a dreamer and she’ll have to wake up with a great thud as she hits the earth sometime soon.
And he’s got this ‘look everybody, how this woman swoons and drools all over me’ card on his desk so the world can look and admire. what an asshole. It’s all so OTT. All for show, no substance.
Sadder but Wiser- I found out today that the ex is moving in with his new girl (who I am assured is ‘very young’). My response was good luck to her, I pray for her sake she gets out sooner and with more money than I did…poor girl.
I KNOW now, deeply KNOW that he will do exactly the same to her, and it just makes me sad for her.
That’s who he is, always was, always will be.
And these guys are so in lurve with being in lurve- its a massive part of their process to idealise, to put the woman on the pedestal and worship her- but then, as we as know, she will turn up with needs and as a real person and he will be shocked, as he thought he’d ordered a goddess; she will never live up to it, and so the devaluation will begin.
This stage is just both of them getting swept away in their little fantasy of icky romance-novel love, projecting their idealised images onto each other.
It can’t, won’t last- you know the man, you know his game, he’s gonna be doing this loooong after you even care what he gets up to.
Still, it sucks, and it hurts, and you don’t ‘should’ do ANYTHING apart from take care of yourself and do best by you. When and if the time is right you can be happy for his so-called progress- which I don’t believe for one second is what it is btw…
Revolution, Grizelda, Grace, Gina, Little Star, Fearless – I am still sad but MUCH the wiser from absorbing all of your wise words! What awesome women you are! Very shrewd and perceptive indeed. You’ve all helped me get through a low period, and I’m grateful you took the time to respond to me. Yes, I know I am reading too much into something I really know nothing about. It’s not my business. Whether he’s blissfully happy or miserable and dysfunctional, it has nothing to do with my life. He’s long gone. It doesn’t matter. When someone much better comes along, I’ll hardly be able to remember what I ever saw in him.
The biggest hurdle I’ve had putting this totally behind me is one I never expected. What I’m surprised at in myself is the level of resentment I’ve felt, and still feel. Awful, poisonous, vengeful, hateful resentment and envy! This is a new thing for me, and very unpleasant to experience. Envy is one of the seven deadly sins, and now I know why. I need to do more work on letting go, forgiveness and wishing them well. Praying for them too. Putting the matter in God’s hands and trusting that this relationship didn’t work out for a good reason. I’m determined to do this.
Sadder (but wiser),
I thought I’d add my 2 cents to this lengthy thread…for what it’s worth. I understand the envy that you talk about. It is a horrible, HORRIBLE feeling. My ex initially got with me a couple of weeks after breaking up with his girlfriend of 3 months (who he lived with btw, along with a bunch of other people). This girl HATED me. My ex said she was constantly comparing herself to me and was depressed every time I came around. I’m sure she was devastated when we got engaged five months later. But this had nothing to do with me being *better* than her. Not at all. It just took longer for the sh*t to hit the fan. When it did, he treated me just as badly (if not worse) than how he treated her.
It had nothing to do with me. It had nothing to do with her. He’s just an ass. The more I focus on this the less envious I feel of whoever ends up with this particular assclown. I’m not going to envy someone who has to sift through the sewage to be with someone I flushed. It’s a pretty sad picture. I don’t want to go back there. Honestly, at this point, I envy his previous ex and the fact that she only had to put up with his crap for three months. I have a feeling that this current squeeze will feel the same way about you in time.
Hi, Sadder,
I know, as in KNOW how you feel. I, too, saw an overwrought love/thank you note from the Next Girl. In my bf’s apartment. When he had supposedly Wholeheartedly Come Back to Me.
It was beautiful and simple and contained words like “miracle” and “revelation.”
I knew when I read it that I was doomed. Because she clearly knew him well enough to use the very language (indicating transcendent connection and his open-sesame ways with the Mysteries of the Universe) that press his love buttons. Because I was not, and was unable to, after our history, responding to his reset button with similar wholehearted rapture.
I was being cautious and adult. I had asked him if he was sure, and said I did not want any triangulation. rather than being reassuring, he became sulky and said, “I’m not fucking with your head. Who do you think I am?”
Once I saw her note, I thought, I know who you are. You are a man who wants the woman who knows nothing about your bet-hedging emotional safety net machinations; you want a woman whose image of you matches your idealized picture of love.
I knew what he was going to do before he did. And he did it by telling me that my realistic concerns amounted to “ambivalence” and by seizing on my statement that I wondered about the timing of his about-face to solemnly repeat back to me, in a mournful tone, “You were right. It was too soon.”
How I berated myself for not having kept my doubts to myself! For not having seemed to be blissfully wholehearted! For not having written my own miracles-and-fate love note!
I lost 15 pounds and wandered around my life like a ghost.
Every single thing I’d feared he might do, and that he reacted to with horror: “I would never do that to you!” he then proceeded to do.
How I envied her ignorance. How I envied the way that very ignorance made her more lovable in his eyes. I reminded him of his failures; she of his potential.
What seemed, and still seems, so unfair, is that it is he who always has someone who feels this way about him, whereas I — we on this blog — are the steadfast, forgiving, perceptive partners left to mourn. We have become experts on our EUMs, their fears and strategems. But our expertise has disqualified us from their adoration.
I know how you feel.
The supportive comments to you also help me, so thanks to Natalie and this community.
Okay, ixnay. I know how you feel and I sympathize, but I’m about to go medieval on your a**.
“What seemed, and still seems, so unfair, is that it is he who always has someone who feels this way about him, whereas I — we on this blog — are the steadfast, forgiving, perceptive partners left to mourn. We have become experts on our EUMs, their fears and strategems.”
Yes, that WOULD be sad if all we wanted was a shallow relationship with someone who mirrored fake selves back to us. But I think it’s safe to say that we want the real deal. We want the hearty chicken dinner. These EUs are stuck at Burger King.
“But our expertise has disqualified us from their adoration.”
Thank the LORD ABOVE that this disqualifies us! Geez. That type of “adoration” has a shelf life. And it’s not even all it’s cracked up to be on the shelf.
Sorry if I was harsh, ixnay. I know you get it.
Well said Ixnay – all of it. Yep, once you ‘get’ him you’re never going to get him and, with any luck, you’re never going to want to. With these men the rule is to stick with the script or get off the stage.
Thanks so much to everyone for sharing their stories and giving such helpful and caring advice. This whole thread has helped me more than I could have imagined, and I’m glad all of these responses have helped people more than just me. What a great community this is!
Heya Sadder
Your post is so sad and it hit so many chords with me and how I used to feel that I feel that I’ve got to share this with you.
It’s might seem a bit weird because it’s the other side of the story, so to speak, and you might initially think “???” when you read it but bear with me.
The father of my son actually IS, as far as I can tell, a reformed character and HAS got better and become more EA. Long story short, he met his gf when our son was two months old after messing me about for my entire pregnancy and they’re still together. And it was grim, I’ve been in the ‘privileged’ position of observing this as I’ve seen him two or three times a week since it all began. I’ve also seen the cards and the rhapsodies and the second-hand accounts of how well-suited and in love they are and I also felt like something unmentionable over it for a long time.
(I’m aware, btw, that the general consensus on here is often that he HASN’T really changed, which may well be true – but he gives every appearance of having done which, practically speaking, amounts to more or less the same thing at this point).
Here are my observations, having seen it happen:
1) It was Hard Won. It basically took a serious suicide attempt, a huge life-changing event/motivation (birth of son) AND a shovel-load of luck to make it happen. He didn’t just wake up one day and think “right, now I feel like being a Good Person so I will be”.
2) It’s a long process, and afaics it’s still ongoing in a one-step-forward-two-steps-back sort of a way. He does still occasionally slip back into his old ways with the drinking and the ringing me in the middle of the night and the chatting up other girls. He regrets it when it does and it seems to happen less and less often, but there it is. He hasn’t just gone from 0-Perfect.
3) As a result, I don’t believe that his relationship is all that. I know (without really wanting to!) about some of the times that he’s slipped up and done something like chatted up my boss because it’s got to me through the grapevine. I’m pretty sure that his gf doesn’t. And these days I’m very very very glad that I’m not in the position of thinking that I’m in a ‘perfect’ relationship with someone when I’m not, really. Now I’m waiting on a relationship that’s genuinely honest and I wouldn’t settle for less.
4) It wasn’t about me and it wasn’t about her, either. For a long time he simply didn’t understand how very very hurt I was because, to his mind, I wasn’t really a sentient player in it – it’s been All About Him. I was essentially just a warm body and a listening ear while he was too wrapped up in himself to see beyond his nose. If he’d met his gf when he met me he’d have treated her in exactly the same way, and we both know it.
5) Insofar as it used to stab me through the heart every time I saw evidence that he’d ‘changed’ (“Why? Why for her? I did all the bogging work!”), I really don’t mind anymore – I’m glad that he’s in a better position to be a good father and I’m proud of the way that we’ve both handled the situation. We’re all healthier now and I’m healthy enough to see that It Wouldn’t Ever Have Worked AND that It Never Will. Way way too much manky in there.
6) It may not be permanent – I know him well enough by now to know that he doesn’t cope well with adversity and when he hits some, it’s going to be up to him to find the strength to deal with it without going back to EUMland. He might not – and tbh the prospect of this worries me nowadays, rather than filling me with glee.
I don’t know if that helps at all? Basically what saying is DON’T get dragged into the big fiction that a person will change if the right person comes along and makes them feel right and does and says the right things. It’s rubbish. Yeah, people can change – and I think I’ve seen it happen – but it really isn’t that straightforward or that fairytale. In all likelihood, yours is making his girlfriend feel a little bit awful about herself in a really subtle way as I type.
Lots of love xxxxx
I should add…
… my situation is admittedly weird and, with hindsight, I could’ve handled things a lot differently to make it easier on myself, and wish that I had. And I do handle it differently nowadays. Fr’example, I only go to his house if it can’t possibly be avoided and, oddly enough, these days it nearly always can be!
Paying any attention to him/her/them and telling yourself the “…for the love of a Good Woman” myth will only make you miserable – I learnt this the hard way over an 18-month period.
You don’t have to – rejoice and make the most of it! Focus on YOU and making yourself as happy as you can.
Yogurt I know your post was to Sadder but thank you was very helpful.
I was thinking about this issue last night.
It is known that if we are dating an EUM then generally it points to us being EUW and if we hope to change our ways and patterns and date emotionally healthy people then I’m not sure why we struggle so much if the guy changes otherwise aren’t we all doomed to keep dating the same people?
I wonder if guys think the same way if we change.
Hmmm… good question
I think, in some ways, it’s easier for us ‘Passengers’ to have an incentive to change because… well, it just doesn’t work as well for us! Why would we want to stay on the ground with someone kicking us in the teeth?
And in fairness to the Drivers/Tooth-Kickers, I think that only a small proportion of them really understand and think about the hurt that they do. Son’s Dad has maybe ‘got it’ (in part, he’s no idea of the full story from my side) over the last six months or so, and Son is nearly two. He was so detached from everything except the inside of his head at the time that it all just rolled straight off him.
I’ve found – and this is one of the reasons that I believe he’s genuinely changed – that I find him/the whole situation much much easier to deal with nowadays, because the dynamic is radically different. He’s thoughtful! He’s responsible! He’s appropriately supportive! I’ve mentioned it somewhere below but that ‘edge’ of self-loathing and confusion and upset – I thought it was ‘love’ – that he always used to inspire in me has gone. He’s gone from being the Be-All And End-All to being a pleasant and quite good-looking bloke that I am not with. And there are lots of those – I can cope with it perfectly well 🙂
Of course, as I say, my situation is weird and tbh I would’ve much preferred it if I could’ve gone NC and never had to see/think about him again. I think, though, that you’d mind less than you think if they actually DID change. Real change isn’t easy (look at all of us!), it’d require them to try and fail and suffer and feel guilty and face up to lots of unpleasant facts in the process.
What people object to, I think, is the idea that the person who has practically given them a nervous breakdown can rock into the next relationship and turn over a new leaf without blinking an eye. Apart from anything else, it feels as though their behaviour with you was because of your inadequacies and that it’s because the new partner is ‘better’. There are a lot of really stupid myths about this – they’re generally propagated in silly romcoms but we all absorb and, to an extent, believe them.
I don’t think that that happens. I don’t think that you can change behaviour that’s been ingrained for years on a whim and without a significant effort over a period of time. And I don’t think that, if you habitually treat women like crap, you’re ever going to meet ‘The Woman’ who inspires you to make it happen.
I DO believe that redemption/change is possible for anyone, but anyone who thinks that it’s a walk in the park or that it can realistically have the side-effect of making somebody else feel even worse should think on.
Was thinking about this some more last night:
– Another reason it’s hurtful when they suddenly go ‘Poof! Change!”… it makes it clear that their behaviour towards you was a deliberate choice, based on you and your inability to be ‘The One’. That’s pretty hideous.
Another point is that, if they DO change, it stands to reason that their attractivenss, as an EU person to an EU person, diminishes. Son’s Dad is a lot less fun to puzzle out these days because he does what he says he’s going to and generally behaves like a human bean. Which is good – it frees up my brain for so many other things 🙂
yoghurt-
this whole two-part reply is GOLD. absolute GOLD.
maybe he did change. but he changed because HE wanted to, not for anybody, and certainly not for the new girl – not that he’d probably admit this.
and a thought i had in the shower the other morning, y’know, where i do all my best thinking:
those of us who grew up as chameleons and pleasers are always gobsmacked when a guy doesn’t change for us, i think, because we used changing for others as a survival tactic – that’s what we did, how we got along – so its inconceivable to us that change wouldn’t even be on the table, not even a consideration for someone else. and probably why they wouldn’t conceive of changing for us. because that’s just not part of their world view, whereas its inherent in ours.
and, notice that yoghurt’s ex’s current girl doesn’t perceive him as changing – this is who he always was to her. same for your painful chain, sadder but wiser.
so, that’s the lesson – take people as they ARE. if a guy is a jerk to you – he’s a jerk.
Aw, thanks cc 🙂
“those of us who grew up as chameleons and pleasers are always gobsmacked when a guy doesn’t change for us, i think, because we used changing for others as a survival tactic – that’s what we did, how we got along – so its inconceivable to us that change wouldn’t even be on the table, not even a consideration for someone else. and probably why they wouldn’t conceive of changing for us. because that’s just not part of their world view, whereas its inherent in ours.”
This is brilliant – I hadn’t thought about it before but it’s absolutely true. Before, if someone had told me to change something about myself (y’know, expectations, values, world view…) I would’ve only paused to say “How high?” And I didn’t even question it – I had one boyfriend tell me that he’d split up with me before he’d change a single thing about himself and I didn’t even question it – I just thought “Oh, I’ll just have to adjust then”.
(I had the obligatory few days of beating myself up after Coffee-Arse-Commenter disappeared, and I remembered that I ranted vociferously about a film that I didn’t like. Well, then, no wonder. How could I have done that? Who wants to listen to an opinionated loudmouth? Who do I think I am? etc etc etc. Then I realised that I could’ve just as well have rejected HIM for NOT having a least-favourite-film-rant… how very dull)
I think it’s also worth pointing out that, until relatively recently, things were easier for Sons’ Dad because I was there serving as an emotional dustbin. D’you remember I roared at him for ringing me in the middle of the night? One of the things that I said was “I’m SURE that it’s VERY VERY easy to be 100% nice to someone when you’ve got a spare (me) waiting in the wings taking all the flak”. I’m not sure that he shows her very much of his ‘dark’ unsure, depressive side. Again, am VERY glad that I haven’t spent the last eighteen months in that relationship.
i remember, yoghurt. love you, babe.
sadder,
I wrote a card like that for someone once when we were in the “hot” phase and now, if someone showed it to me I am sure that I would just laugh….she is young, naive, she has probably never been in love before…everyone writes those letters in that situation. Wait a few years until they are married with kids and he is checking out the younger girls…he has little character. What you saw is what she will get eventually I am sure. Don’t envy her. Be glad you are free of him and please try to get a new job.
That Girl, Yoghurt and DQ, thanks so much for all the good advice and support! I’m feeling less sad and more wise by the minute. 🙂
Sadder but Wiser
“What I’m surprised at in myself is the level of resentment I’ve felt, and still feel. Awful, poisonous, vengeful, hateful resentment and envy! This is a new thing for me, and very unpleasant to experience”
I recently experienced this very thing. Just before I blocked the exMM on fb, I saw he had posted pictures of the woman he claimed to have broken up with. I have also seen him praise another female colleague’s work in group emails. I became so angry that he feels he can quickly drift from woman to woman to get his needs met (like the mosquito Griz mentioned). It got to the point that I felt I *hated* him, which is a new feeling for me, too. Fearless reminded me that he is just a user – what he does with other women is not my concern. It`s only a week after I felt what I thought was vengeful hatred, but it`s diminishing now. I feel more sad for these other women, rather than envious, because I know what they are getting. And I don`t feel that I really hate the exMM, although I am still disgusted with his actions (which I used to be complicit with – yikes!)
You know what the new woman in *your* exEUM`s life is getting, too, and it`s not what *you* want or need to be happy. Those feelings of envy, revenge, hatred could possibly turn into pity and acceptance, if you change the meaning of the letter you saw, based on what other BR posters have written here. I wish you peace SbW xo
Sadder but Wiser
The sort of stuff she wrote on that card….I used to say that to my ex AC as part of my bend yourself backwards and show him how much you love him campain, desperate to do anything ( well, nearly) for him to love me back. I was convinced that that is how I felt about him and maybe she is too.I was creating a relationship in my head that I was convinced we could have based on the potential that was just in my desperate imagination. There was no magic in reality just a lot of disappointment and pain, but I was in denial and telling him how happy I was and how wonderful to me he was was just a desperate illusion.And then I saw it wasn`t working and dumped him because I couldnt take any more.Please trust me when I say….it doesn`t matter what you see and read, you have no way of knowing their reality. Hugs to you.
This post really resonated with me. Today I celebrate my 52nd year and my 6th year of breast cancer survival; my dad, chronically EU and slowly dying due to really bad lifestyle choices, is in intensive care, needs major surgery and basically told me to @#$% off because I consulted with his physician and want him to sign a living will and state his wishes should things go south. Couple that with having to attend a mandatory meeting and having to witness at work AC flirt with someone else. Logically I understand that their behavior is due to who THEY are and has little to do with me but dammit it hurts.
Happy Birthday, Miskwa. Even if this day is less than happy, I send you best wishes for good year ahead. Take care of you and let the others, with THEIR problems, take a back seat to your first priority–You.
(if it helps, I’m older than you and have gotten the treat of witnessing the ex flirt [and worse] with others. Just one more reason I/you are well out of it, and that is progress right there.)
Happy birthday, Miskwa and happy 6th anniversary.
You can and will get to the point where “having” to see the ex at places won’t feel like anything. I see AC#1 (the one before the last) at events all the time, doing exactly his I’m-such-a-sensitive-and-diversity-oriented-brilliant-writer-teacher thing, and young women ask me if I know him ALL the time and tell me how GREAT he is. It’s no picnic but I’m at the point where it’s kind of humorous. I do my interior eye-roll. I used to feel on the outside of a worldwide AC#1-love-in but now I feel on the inside of a select those-who-know-truth-about-AC#1, even if that latter club is just me (it isn’t, and I doubt you’re the only one who knows the truth about yours).
Your perspective on this guy will change when you see he doesn’t really “get away” with all of it, and with that change of ‘meaning’ the hurt feeling will disappear. Now when I see AC#1 it’s more a feeling like you get when bugs show up at your picnic.
Oh, and re your dad, just … hugs.
Happy Birthday Miskwa, I wish you all the best in the world, the most important you are healthy, try to concentrate on YOU. AC do not deserve you x
Happy birthday Miskwa! And happy 6th anniversary!!
so….this means that if someone treats us poorly, they probably have a whole history that we just don’t know about.
like my brother said to me when i told him about the exEUM, who was seemingly willing to be loving when his health was in jeopardy, and took all of that back when he got better – and my brother finished my sentence for me – “he turned back into his awful self, right? don’t feel bad about it – this is how he treated every single woman in his life. its not you.”
yep. note to self: take people’s behavior as evidence of who THEY are, not who YOU are.
Sorry, cc, that you had to go through that. You were being a decent human being, and offering your help to a fellow human being in need. Don’t stop that admirable quality of yours just because some douche took advantage of it.
As a side note, don’t you love how men (like your bro) can just cut through the crap and just say exactly what it is in a sentence or two? And he’s right: It’s NOT you. It’s NOT us.
hey cc, your brother is super wise! I am always a day late and a dollar short with checking in here, but thanks for the advice on the last post it helped:)
revs, dq-
thanks, guys. yes, my bro is cool. he tries to be such a good brother that he’s practically a good sister.
and dq, no worries about checking in. we all know we’re all here.
xoxoxox
Thanks everyone for your comments. I really needed them. I was doing some “euphoric recalling” tonight about the AC and me. Thank you for reminding me that the intense feelings, the connection, and the longing have nothing to do with who him, the real him. I’m really just “jones-ing” for a love fix. Thanks for reminding me that there really wasn’t anything there, that I really didn’t like him, the real him. What i really liked was the attention he gave me in the beginning, but that stopped. I liked the feelings I had with him, but they would stop whenever I would get a glimpse of the real him. It’s like Dorthy in the wizard of oz when she gets to see the man behind the curtain, pretending to be the powerful wizard. She sees that he ain’t what he appears to be. There comes a time when you just can’t let the AC draw that curtain closed anymore. It’s total disillusionment.
Learner.
The insight, realizations, determination. Amazing, and wonderful, wonderful work. So happy for you!
Thanks Tink! I am happy to read about your progress, too. Cheers!
Revolution. Let it out, honey. We’re here for you. Be proud of yourself for really trying hard to deal with your issues. We are all in different places in our journey, and some of us are successful quicker than others. Then, again, they may have been at it a lot longer. We don’t know that. But, the more we may be different, the more we’re very much the same, or we wouldn’t be here.
Tinkerbell,
((HUGS)) 🙂 Thank you. This process can royally SUCK sometimes, huh? But you’re SO right that we are all in this together. I’m glad to have you!
Just wanted to say that, talk about change of meaning and perspective, yesterday I bumped into my ex-AC’s daughter, whom, over the 8 years we were together, I saw grow up and was very close to.
Despite trying to stay in touch with her to begin with, it proved too painful for both of us, as I wasn’t talking to him; I had her birthday this year marked as a time to get back in touch, obviously understanding that she may want nothing to do with me after I’d dropped the ball on making an effort to keep contact.
Well, we hugged and cried, and just to see her happy, and healthy made me smile so much I couldn’t stop grinning the whole night. It put everything into perspective- and it reminded me how lucky I am to have this beautiful step-daughter, who completely understood my lack of contact, and what an amazing thing to have come out of this disastrous relationship. I vowed never to lose contact with her again and we are meeting up next week.
Just wanted to share this as it really represented progress- I was not ‘saddened’ by memories of him; I was overjoyed with memories of her and the knowledge that I have been granted another opportunity to do good by her and salvage a friendship that really DID matter, unlike his. (She was very well aware of his narc ways, btw…he did it to her too, don’t they all)
Awww That Girl!
Your story made me smile too! Reading it, I thought that the girl was probably SO happy to see you too, and to know how much you care (as evidenced, I’m sure, by your words and body language. ‘Cause I can even feel it just through the WORDS you write). Especially is this true if her dad is a narc. I don’t know how old she is, but if she’s mature enough and knows about narcissists, she will understand your reasons for NC VERY well, and maybe is considering NC herself.
Thanks Revolution! she did understand, we used to stick up for each other a lot. A young woman wise beyond her years, sadly, but also with alot of strength. She sent a msg today saying how happy she was and that it put her in the best mood seeing me. I can’t tell you how pleased I am this weekend, reminded of the things that matter in life!
Why make the meaning of something that’s not all about you, all about you and your worth?
I have been struggling with the concept its not all about me lately. Sometimes my mind gets it understands it then other thoughts push their way in and round and round they go.
It is hard to not think something is wrong with you when someone cheats on you hard to not think you are a failure in some way fat ugly etc.
He wants to hit the reset button and I think back to those articles where the person apologises just to get back to the status quo hurry and accept my apology. He said the words himself it isn’t about me. URGH
I think cheating is a sign of disrespect yet he claims to highly respect think me a wonderful person yet it doesn’t feel that way by him cheating. I don’t know what to think.
I am grateful though somehow my thinking is not obsessed by all this though it does get conflicted.
Tulipa,
You’re right not to think you should be flattered by his wanting to come back. It can be taken more as an insult than a flattery.
If he misses you — really really misses you — he needs to start acting like it. He needs to make amends and address his problems like an adult. He can’t just turn up on your doorstep expecting you to develop ‘betrayal amnesia’ and take him back in for more goodies, no questions asked.
I don’t know why I even bothered engaging in hearing him out I guess I don’t have to wonder anymore he isn’t sorry well only in the sense of hurry up get over it and come back.
I grew up in a family where having amnesis was mandatory but the room is full.
He will move on quickly addressing things like an adult I don’t think so.
Runnergirl … I feel ya. Is your daughter angry with you? My son is. If it isn’t blatant, its passive aggressive. His woes are all my fault! During one discussion where I am just begging him to get the laundry done in one day (he was on day THREE and managed to play his video games all hours of the night and not working but 20 hours or less a week) he screamed at me, “You’ve always resented me!!!!” I put my hands around his throat and screamed, “I DID NOT RESENT YOU!!!” and thought to myself, this could be sending a mixed message!!! LOL!! I wrote up terms and conditions for his living with me, which included paying rent, $25 a week, doing our laundry weekly, working 40 hours a week, getting insurance on his truck, and having a respectful curfew, ie, midnight weekdays and 2 or phone call if he is staying at friends on weekend. As is, he works 5- 10 hours a week, no rent, I paid his insurance because I was going to buy him clothes but he wanted that instead, and give him gas money to take/pick-up other son from school. Huh??? It all happened so fast. Then when he stays out all night after I say come home early, he says, favorite line, “You’re just looking for a reason to get mad.” I’m harming him. I would NEVER tolerate this from anyone else. BTW – I am not usually a physically violent person.
Hi Loj
It really can be difficult letting go of adult kids, particularly when they live with you. Not feeling guilty for my less than stellar parenting is something I’m still struggling with. I’ve been trying to establish boundaries (for the first time) with my daughter as well. I’ve been able to enforce two boundaries: First, she is in school full-time or working full-time. She chose school and is looking for part-time work. Second, she gets an allowance and that’s it (but I pay for everything since she is in school). Based on my above comment, she seems to be establishing and enforcing boundaries with me too!
Here’s the thing though, even though she gets angry, I’ve seen glimpses of how grateful she is. When I picked her up from jail, I was the only parent waiting frantically outside all damn day. The other 5 DUI 20-somethings had to call somebody. She rushed straight into my arms and starting sobbing. I knew she’d be a total wreck. On the way home, she said some things I’ll never forget. She said she was so grateful for everything I do and she just f**ks up. The guilt was so thick I could cut it. I reassured her I will always be there for her, she made a mistake, and we’ll sort it out. (Correction: “She’ll” sort it out.)
I think maybe the kids may be learning to be adults?
PS. Her former therapist and my former therapist advised us years ago to pick our battles. I let go of her room and the laundry battle years ago and I’ve let go of the curfew battle. I’m not saying you should but school and work are my primary boundaries and it’s all I can do to enforce those boundaries.
PPS. In my case, I’m grateful she didn’t injure or kill anyone and I’m grateful she is uninjured (physically) and alive. This is a total work in progress. Clearly, I don’t have the answers. Hugs to you and your sons.
Runnergirl – I WAS responsible for my younger sister if anything went wrong. Despite my telling my parents she needed to be on birth control numerous times, mom said NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS STAY OUT OF IT, dad said, We don’t know if she’s having sex, and when she gets pregnant I am the one mom is angry with!! Sis says she was at my house. (She knew the game.) When I confronted my mother, she said, “Why didn’t you tell us she was having sex??!” What the what??!!
I read this quote yesterday and I keep thinking about how true it is :
” Once someone shows you their true colors, dont try and repaint them .”
It so reminds me of the AC/EU man I was with for so many years. At the end he did show me his true colors and sometimes I think about him & try & repaint him into the beautiful colors for all the good things about him when I really should just leave well enough alone with the true colors he showed me at the end…
Just my thoughts today :)…Thanks for letting me share on this site. It has been a godsend from above…Hope everyone has a great day !!!
Learner … absolutely agree with the anger. I had to find my anger, too. (I always turned it inward. My fault.) Then I saw one day, too, “Hey!!! It takes two!!” Then I had to distinguish who deserved what. I was a big ball of no boundaries with anyone who crossed my path. Still have to think it all outloud sometimes concerning the ones closest to me. But
lo J
I relate to being the “big ball of no boundaries` until recently. Those boundaries are now under construction, thank goodness! btw, did your message get cut off? It ended with the word “But”
Learner … I was on my phone and my fingers pushed the submit before I wanted. Who knows what I was going to say. Its a new day. Oh my.
I broke nc coz i was low a series of lows bought me down and i got a brush off , it sinks in thst it really is over , and ive had one crap day but i went into work and i got thro day . Cried in the car on way home . I think i just needto catch up on my sleep , i just need to accept hes moved on , thats all there is to it x
Tired, it almost feels cliche for me to write this, but this hurt you feel at present will subside with each passing day.
You know, like so many others here, I have slid back to an EUM b/c of the connection I felt… really liked something about him in the beginning …wanted a return on my investment… thought I was the exception to the rule…. You name it and that was me…
I cut him off before for 4 months after a spell of lazy communication. He sent text messages that I ignored but when he called I thought he missed me…. but really he was just looking for an ego stroke and comfort. It was hot for 2 months before it was cold again. After a broken date that I have been looking forward to, I asked him if he cared about me at all, and his response was that he didn’t. I asked him repeatedly if he was serious before he hung up the phone on me. I guess he was thinking this girl just doesn’t get it… I sent him 1 text after that asking if we could work it out and he ignored it for 36 hours before sending a haphazard response. At that point I decided to cut my losses start no contact. I was really hurt. I felt that he was laughing at my stupidity and riding off into the sunset with a girl he liked better and actually gave the time of day to. Over these last 4 months of no contact, I find that I think about him less as each day passes but it hasn’t been an easy road. I absorbed my pain and really felt it and I still really feel it. I want peace so I have been changing my perspective. Baggage reclaim helps with that. Tired, I know it hurts right now, but there is hope for you. Eventually you will feel better. Don’t give up. Xxx
thankyou , it has been a eye opener ,ive come along way from that niave little girl . it hurts to realise ive been had by such a decietful liar and hes trashed three marraiges and continues to get away with it . i have blocked him and anything associated on fb . to me he is dead i hope he gets a lesson in heartache one day a big chest bursting one x
When I first met my ex AC, I knew all about his history of commitment issues. I even casually knew his previous girlfriend and saw the agony she went through when they broke up. However, he pursued me and when I got together with him, he was absolutely smitten with me. To add to the seduction, all his friends said things like, “we’ve never seen him this way with anyone!” and “I’ve never seen him so happy!” I truly thought I was the exception to the rule, that I was the girl who’d make him change into a completely different character.
From the outside, you would easily have thought the same. I had drank the Kool-Aid and, despite the increasing number of putdowns and long periods of blowing cold and nasty, I persevered, believing we had a special connection. How could that hot phase have been so wrong? I just couldn’t get my head around it. After two years of increasing AC behaviour, I dumped him. By then, even his friends could see it was yet another disastrous relationship for him among many. I chatted with one of his other girlfriends, a girl he had purported to really care for, and she told me he was the exact same with her — lovely at the beginning, mean, aloof and cruel later on.
My point is, don’t pay attention to what an ex AC’s relationship might look like from the outside. The new gf might think she’s one lucky girl, just like I did. He might even be blowing hotter than usual, for longer than usual. But I can guarantee that he will grow bored and start showing his true colours, one way or the other.
Like Nat says, “People don’t roll out different characters for different people.” Or like Maya Angelou says, when people tell you what they are, believe them the first time. I discovered that the hard way. Lesson learned.
@Grizelda: “Seems to me, from reading comments, that the EU men who dump-n-walk, and then suddenly, out of nowhere, gain a serious girlfriend/fiancée/wife, need that suddenness… that speed… that fast-forwarding… to push through their plan before the new victim has time to notice everything that’s wrong with him.”
This was my ex AC. He cheated on me when his ex-girlfriend who dumped him reinitiated contact after a year. He’s an AC/EUM and she’s a Fallback girl who apparently has a habit of going back to her ex’s. 🙂 Interesting!
Thankfully we were together only 4 months but I knew for over a year before that and I had feeling well prior to being with him. So it hurt like hell when it all went down.
Of course after the cheating fiasco came out he was professing love and wanting a relationship with the new woman. This from a man who told me that he did not believe any relationship started before 5 years being complete after a divorce. WOW! He is treating her like gold but I wonder how genuine it all is. Whether is capable of a relationship. I know she wants kids and a ring. Both terrify him.
Anyway, I am well rid of him and best thing of the entire fiasco I found Nat and BR. 🙂 But it still hurts to know he’s really trying with her and did minimal with me. 🙁
My general philosophy now days whether with guys, friends, family comes from a quote from my favorite poster’s (Natasha) mother. I have this tapped to my wall and read it quite often.
“The fact that he was awful enough to go ahead and treat you like you weren’t good enough for him is something YOU should take as a BIG SIGN that he’s not good enough for YOU”.
Araja,
What this new/old woman got for her big prize was a cheater. You know what they say: if a man cheats for you, he’ll cheat on you. Same goes for women by the way — the fallback girls who run ‘portfolios’ of exes, a bit like betting on four horses out of seven in a race, hoping one of them will come in.
Yes Natalie! I used to blame myself when an old high school flame breezed into my life and then after a couple months of heavy flirting, told me that he was interested in someone else and that him and I would never ever be together. No, I kid you not. Those were his exact words!
This hurt SO SO SO MUCH. I was absolutely distraught for almost an entire year. I am a pretty girl, albeit heavy, but I never let that keep me from dating and enjoying my life. I take care of my skin and hair, and I wear nice clothes (not name brands but attractive, clean, flattering outfits). I have a great job and I pay my own bills without having to depend on anyone else.
So when this guy (who I once considered to be the love of my life lol) told me in no uncertain terms that he didn’t want me, you could understand that my self-esteem would have taken a brutal beating. I started to think that maybe I wasn’t ‘all that’. Maybe I thought too highly of myself. Could it be that I was not as ‘on’ as I considered myself? Natalie, I DO NOT EXAGGERATE when I say that I actually thought of suicide!!! It was SOOOO awful! Why? Because the woman who he was ‘now’ interested in was an actual model who could be seen on actual billboards! She was slim and gorgeous,and me…well, I was short, pudgy and…cute! No way in hell did I ever have a chance with this handsome, successful, software engineer! I didn’t even bother to try. I just slunk away and grieved.
I stalked his facebook page to try to find where his interest turned from me to her, I stared at pics of her and I told myself that I must have imagined his interest in me! How could I have been so wrong? I remembered all the long distance calls that were…well, long. We talked for hours on the phone and when we weren’t talking, we were texting. Where, oh where, did he find the time to kindle a relationship with her enough to drop me and decide that he wanted her? I eventually ‘defriended’ him on facebook. The torture was too much. I was going crazy.
Anyway, I never did kill myself (obviously) and I got over it. And guess what? THAT relationship soon fizzled (we have mutual pals) and he is now onto someone else.
I have realised that this is his form. It had nothing to do with her being a model and my not being one. He apparently likes to ‘keep it moving’ and if he doesn’t change, then he will leave a trail of hurting womEn behind.
I am beautiful, successful, happy and…pudgy! LOL! I won’t ever doubt my worth again. NO WAY! Thanks, Natalie!
Damn STRAIGHT you’re too good for this loser, LisaLise!!
A software engineer? Yeesh. Talk about being BOOYFM. (Figure that out? 🙂 Hint: First word is “bored.”)
Tired. He’s moved on. You’ve said that a few times. But are you really grasping that fact? If you are, why are you still holding on to him. You say you are NC, then you break NC and feel hurt because you got a disinterested reaction form him. Stop focusing so much on him and what he is doing and his, and the OW. NC is not just an action. The withdrawal from him is, in itself, agonizing but there must be a whole ‘nother thought process that MUST ACCOMPANY the NC. Forget about him. Forget, forget, forget. Do other things. You can go on. You have no choice.
tinks i have i reached rock bottom yesterday but today im up and at it i have blocked fb and removed nos and yes it is basically me not accepting how i can be there so long and just forgotten like that , but you are right i got think about me now and only me and accept and accept and i will get there i want to prove to myself i can do it x
Tired.
I don’t mean to sound hard or insensitive. It was a year ago for me when I was in your shoes. I didn’t spend long with him but it was one of the most painful experiences in my entire life, (and I’ve been around a long time). It just pains me to see you going through this because my memory is still as if it were last month. It takes a looong time to recover. That’s why I may be a little hard on you. It is not to hurt you. I feel your pain. But, now I am happy, still making little mistakes and midjudgements but nothing like where I was. THIS IS WHAT I WISH FOR YOU.
Tinkerbell is right Tired. It is meant to be this hard. I amhaving another really bad day today. Was so close to texting him a “Miss You” text but have managed not to. I sat there and imagined how I would feel if the text resulted in silence. Yeah, suicidal. I keep thinking about what Natalie says about Trusting in the Process (of NC) and I just have to believe and hope it is true and that I can get through this somehow. Just stick with it Tired, like I am.
thankyou and no im glad you’re a little bit hard because its what i need to find the strentgh do you see ?And it gives me hope i can cure the addiction and get over by myself me growing a backbone standing up tall and fully and maybe finding someone who is good , decent and kind and if not being free and not at the mercy of someone who is unkind and decietful and a manipulator , i only wish he suffers same fate x
This post came at a very good time. For months, since I started reading BR, I have gradually improved from worst to okay. My baby steps after the relationship have been the scariest moments mostly because I was re-living the trauma every now and then. Essentially also, I was not able to let go of the anger because I refused to acknowledge and learn the lesson. I was stuck in wanting to take revenge, and ensuring that he learns the lesson. Two elements that had nothing to do with me at all, and everything to do with him.
Whilst I did have no contact, in a technical sense I was cheating because I would still find a way to check on him (and his relations) through the internet. It got to the point of being obsessive. It was only when I decided to go out, reconnect with old friends, and forge new friendships that the process of moving forward eased out.
I thought that I had ‘to fix’ myself before I can meet other people. Again it was the wrong mentality because I was blaming me again, and thinking there is something wrong with me to be fixed. It has only been recently that I had to change my perspective — there was nothing in me to fix, but there is a lot to love.
For months, I grappled with the aftermath of the relationship. When I took that step, albeit very shaky, all I did was make a commitment to be well by loving myself. And then it honestly got lighter. At a practical level, I saw the results: I had a job interview, I received an A for a postgrad dissertation, and I met someone who I can laugh with but is (amazingly) able to understand where I am coming from.
Whilst a part of me is scared that things will crumble again or that this may not work out, I think I have to rise above that and try to be grateful for where I am now (surely a long way from how I was five months ago). I look at the whole experience as ‘growing pains’. I may have more to go, and this whole thing will definitely not disappear. But I recognise that and push forward.
Holy sh**t, B.
“I thought that I had ‘to fix’ myself before I can meet other people. Again it was the wrong mentality because I was blaming me again, and thinking there is something wrong with me to be fixed. It has only been recently that I had to change my perspective — there was nothing in me to fix, but there is a lot to love.”
This is me to a “T” lately. Albeit slightly subconsciously until reading your comment, which brought it home. I have been doing the same thing. In fact, I tend to do that after every relationship ends. It’s like I’m Linda Hamilton in the mental institution, doing one-armed push-ups, lol. Getting ready for the next relationship. Making sure I’m emotionally, mentally, and (yes) physically strong enough (read: BETTER than before, because, after all, it was ALL MY FAULT that things ended because I wasn’t good enough). Sheesh. I’m gonna go sit down now and have a think.
Thanks for the light bulb moment, B. Continue on your path; it’s the right one. I’ll do the same.
B
Love your story, Thankyou for sharing.
I think there’s a lot in what you say about feeling that you’re damaged and therefore have to sit quiet until you’re fixed enough to take part in your own life whereas in fact it is the taking part in your own life that will “fix” you – well simply make you feel better.
It’s amazing what even a small change in perspective can do. That’s it for now; off to read the comments.
As I read all these post (including mine ) one question strikes me :
We are beautiful, smart, sensitive women that all seem more or less to be mentally healthy and clear on the things we want and how we wan to be treated. We know the direction we want our lives to take or at least we have an idea …
How is it , the one man, ONE SINGLE human being whom we lived perfectly fine without before meeting, can come and create such a huge mess out of our self esteem, our lives, our dreams , our equilibrium .
When I think about it : I have been lingering on this for over 2 years – sitting in a corner like a bird with a wing stuck in some clutter unable to fly to freedom.
Sadder but wiser said everything I felt so beautifully. I actually thought I had quantum leaped into another time and place to write this for my current self to read – sorry … Total nerd ! )
But I mean seriously : the man once stood me up, he made inappropriate borderline racist comments, drank every day and would regularly drink until his eyes would start saying sod off to each other, his shirts were too short, he didn’t always reply to my emails, he was a coward – he once avoided me for 3 weeks because i told him off – he only had a few topics to talk about that he would keep recycling, aaaaaaannnnnddd how can one forget the fact that he cannot keep a hard on and kisses with the tip of his tongue …
WHY on earth would I be hung up on this dude … Especially when he married a 20 something girl who has no idea of who really is, who herself is of questionable virtue and who wears a constant pout on her face like shes Donald ducks long lost cousin ( and don’t get me started on the acne )
What have I lost? What was so special about this that my life can no longer continue without the blessing of a man who was never really a blessing to begin with..
My brain can understand that, why does it take so long for the heart to follow?
I thought about this morning and realized if I had shown respect and love for myself, I would have never put him first by letting him get a way with so much.
As genuine and nconditional as my love can be, noone should deserve it more than myself. I think if we did follow that principal. These kind of men would stop appearing in our lives, because they would know they didn’t stand a chance.
Now off with the clutter, I want to fly …!!!
*watches lyly’s flight and admires her*
Flap flappin’ to freedom 🙂 thank you CC
Victorious,
Soooo glad you held back. Keep it up. You said you would have felt “suicidal” if his response had been silence? Your texting him would have been in the realm of a suicidal act. Even if he would have responded positively, you may have gotten back on the merry-go-round. Whether you actually did or not, you still would have felt like s**t having broken your resolve and promise to yourself. Good for you!
Rev. When I wrote about people (read men) having commented on my ‘masculine’ traits, I did not mean my dress sense. I can rock stilletto’s, a pretty feminine top & pencil skirt with the best of them. I meant, that I am ASSERTIVE. That’s why EU’s don’t last long with me (usually not more than a few weeks) & AC’s have practically no chance. This is why it was OFF with my ex almost the entire duration of his reappearance.
Turn the stigma back on itself. It’s better to take your time now than endure the pain of a failed marriage, possibly involving kids. I’ve had worse. A cousin actually had a talk with me about my single status at a wedding! I put her in her place by explaining that (unlike her) I had decided to pursue university & to buy my home on my own so I would not NEED to rely on a man to provide for me & that pursuing a serious career while doing all of this so far, was in fact, quite time consuming, in addition to raising my son! She looked shocked. Good. She remains uneducated. In more ways than one. Stand in your truth & OWN it. You are an assertive woman. Those friends also need a talking to. Get to it & tell them what you saw & how you felt about it.
And now we come to teachable, the rockin’ sexy chick….. 🙂
Sorry, hope I didn’t offend re: my comment on the feminine/masculine. I didn’t even think about you being masculine, hon. I guess I was just off on my own tangent, lol. This frickin’ head cold is plugging me up so bad, I can’t even hear myself think! 🙂
Anyway, assertive, yes. And your cousin bringing up your singlehood at a wedding….um, really? S’ll I gotta say. Geez. I love how you set her straight, lol. I once told an older woman who was giving me a hard time, “I’m taking my time, because I don’t want to be STUCK in some loveless marriage for 40 years!” This woman was married for about that amount of time. Harsh. But hey, don’t f**ck with me. (Laying my feathers down now.)
*Sigh* Yeah, I gotta talk to my friends. They really ARE good people, so I don’t want to be too harsh. But still, things need to be said.
Victorious. Do not send that text. Please. Be kind to yourself. Hang in five more minutes. Another hour. One more day. This WILL pass. Not only would you feel suicidal if he didn’t reply, but if he did, the whole merry go round would be off & running again. You have had enough pain to deserve to recover now. You don’t have to exist like that anymore. You deserve so much more. There is another way. Distract yourself. But whatever you do, just don’t contact him. It’s time to love yourself now. Hugs. T x
yes teachable is right , dont. it sent me on a big downer doing it . dont do it rise above it . you can the peace and calm are nice , the hopelessness and despair if he didnt reply you dont need. its early days for me and when i get that feeling i say its a false connection, of a man that doesnt exsist.
Thanks to Tinkerbell, teachable and Tired ( All the Ts) I still haven’t contacted him. I keep spending time just staring into space thinking about him. It is very hard at the moment. I am nearly 4 weeks NC. I had a couple of good days and thought I was “there” but apparently not. It is hard because we never rowed and got on so well but at the end of the day we are stuck. Neither of us can give each other the relationship the other wants. He wants one that is monogamous and where he calls me every day, but I am held physically and emotionally at arms length. I want one where I am a priority and am properly appreciated and loved. I should add that I meant “suicidal” figuratively. I have children and although I get very down I am strong enough to get through this.
victorious i to have children . two wonderful boys id never do anything to hurt them not over someone like him.me and you must spur each other on i have bliped a couple of times in nc the last sat when i got a disinterested text back . we can do this we deserve better i cant keep getting on a merry go round i been pushed off and nows my chance to heal myself . you are doing it be proud be proud support and hugs xx
Lyly: Very well put. I think right now I am stuck in this anger phase where I alternate between feeling extremely mad at him (and the universe) for what he did to me (lied, cheated, deceived, played around with my feelings, and then disappeared) to being angry at myself for allowing him into my life. It’s like when I met him I knew in the back of my mind that it was never going to work out and he was much too immature to back up anything he was saying. And I went for it anyway. There is a 13-year age difference between us and as much as I tried to downplay its significance, I always felt it. Before meeting him, I felt pretty sure of myself and my place in the world- smart, accomplished, well-educated, well-traveled, destined for great things. Then I met him at a time I was feeling a little lonely and craving some male attention. I allowed him to sweep me off my feet (without the wining and dining- he was always broke) and believed everything he said. In just a matter of months, I got completely caught up in the fairy tale. Once everything came crashing down, I found myself saying things like “All my plans have fallen apart” and “Now I have nothing”. I said that in front of my therapist last week and she nearly jumped up screaming “How do you have nothing? He has nothing!”. Let’s look at who this dream guy is- broke, unemployed, college drop-out, own family says he is lazy and spoiled, a confirmed LIAR, and he also watches kid’s cartoons every afternoon. And I am upset because some other girl (his age) has him now? The fact is he has likely found someone on his own level. So, what did I lose?
Exactly books !
It’s like we get so caught up in them that we completely forget who we were before them and who we will continue to be without them.
I do think I can now recognize an unhealthy tendency to a relationship and pay attention to the flags so I don’t get too carried away and literally forget myself.
You obviously were a whole individual before you met him so nothing about him can make you more than you already are, nor give you more than you had before.
Especially if he’s a lying broke a** cheating waste of terrestrial space and oxygen.
I do believe that when the right one comes along i will recognize him : because for the first time I won’t lose myself in it, because being me is exactly what will have brought him about.
As you should stay the amazing woman you are because you want a man that will appreciate that about you –
Anything less than that shall nowforth be dismissed.
I have been really touched by response to Sadder but Wiser and the original post. I am having a lot of trouble with my feelings of resentment, anger, spite and jealousy resulting from a very long marriage to a decent but very very closed off man who was passive, didn’t make decisions (and left me to make them all), couldn’t discuss issues, could not deal with emotions (mine or his)so that I basically lived in an emotional desert. I talked and explained and cried and begged and threatened and cried some more for years because I so wanted the marriage to work, felt that I could not justify leaving (didn’t like myself enough – he didn’t beat me up did he?) and because was a good father. Besides talking too much and not acting I went to therapy, dragged him – all to no avail even when therapists (many) laid it on the line to him about doing the personal work and growth he needed to do. But instead of acting I just tried to justify being IN the relationship even when I knew it was, on many levels, destroying me. A year ago I said I could not go on…and looked forward to being free of the relationship fakery I had been a party to and even, yes, even releasing myself from the anger and guilt I had about my anger. We vowed to do this in a supportive and caring way and that was fine although even then he did no “work” about the end of the relationship (while I grieved). Very quickly he initiated a fast forwarding intimate contact with another women which he smacked me in the face with despite being in the face of fully agreed upon personal and family commitments which compromised me (long story)and just led me into a huge grief response about everything. Well, it blew up in his face and finally he is doing some real work on himself FOR himself even though the marriage has ended – I have hopes that this might make a relationship around the family still possible (we are both devoted to our adult children). But I am having a LOT of trouble dealing with the fact that he never changed actually for me…but because I finally left the relationship and he admits that he never WOULD have changed. (Lesson 1 – Act, don’t talk). And I am aware that all the time, work, concern, tears etc to make things better will simply be bestowed on another women. I resent very much the fact that even as an older man he will have “lots of takers” and of course logically speaking I say, “Why shouldn’t he?” But in contrast, I feel my own future looks bleak (older woman syndrome and I have learned from my mistakes. I haunt myself with images about him being relaxed and happy at family gatherings with a cool woman while I have….nothing. I KNOW that this inner dialogue is sad and stupid. I can’t control what happens, nor do I want to. I DO work on a good life and in many ways have it…interesting, challenging work, social activism, hobbies I care about, friends, good relations with kids, etc etc. problem, it is his life, I have my own etc. And I DO have a good life but this possibility for him and the bleakness I anticipate for myself (reduced options for any kind of intimate relationship with a man even though I am attractive) makes me feel bad and I am having trouble with it. And I hate feeling so spiteful. I am sure it is linked to the grief I feel about my losses which I haven’t fully come to terms with yet, my own understanding of the role I played etc but it is very very uncomfortable.
Hey espresso
I should freely admit at this point that I don’t know anything about being married for such a long time. It sounds like you’ve absolutely been through the mill, though, I’m so sorry.
My first thought is: slow your roll! You’ve got him morphed into a different person, married off to Susan Sarandon and inspiring gales of hearty laughter round a mahogany table with a cigar and fine port… and none of that has happened yet.
I’ve spent a good portion of the last two years worrying about things that were never going to happen, never happened or haven’t happened yet. It’s too much effort to waste on something that achieves nothing. It DOES sound like you’ve an awful lot to process and grieve (aside from anything else, it seems like it’s been an absolute rollercoaster since you split up).
The thing is, fretting endlessly about things that MIGHT happen and speculating on the future doesn’t aid your grieving, ime it stalls it – I have a suspicion that it’s a preventative measure your brain takes to stop you dealing with the nitty-gritty and making changes.
Also, reality is a whole lot easier to deal with than scenarios. If stuff happens in the future you’ll be able to understand and cope with it far better than you can now. But you don’t know what stuff will happen in the future so it’s pointless thinking about it.
You don’t know if or how he’ll change – I should imagine that at this point in his life it’ll be very very difficult and he’ll have an awful lot of grieving to do himself. If he DOES genuinely become more emotionally available though (and admittedly again, this is from my own experience and may not apply to yours) you might find him a lot easier to deal with. There’ll still be grief and sadness, but that edge of desperation and unhappiness and constantly questioning and disliking yourself will be gone when you interact.
Finally, I don’t believe that people EVER change for someone else – first and foremost they change for themselves. If he’d put this effort in when you were together then it might’ve been for any reason – because he didn’t want to disrupt his nice comfy life, because he was too fond of the living-room carpet to leave it… would that’ve been better?
My son’s grandmother has been going through a very similar situation for the last few years (except he isn’t for changing, he’s jetting off to Italy) and it occurs to me that it must be very very difficult for people who’ve been married for a long time, because the rules have been changing very rapidly for some time now. It’s not your fault – you did the best you could with the information and understanding that you had. And it sounds as though you couldn’t have fought harder for your marriage. xx
espresso-
first, i’m terribly sorry at how awful your marriage was and how hard you worked. probably, though, that work benefited your children, and it also benefited YOU, you just can’t see that now.
1- scroll up and read yoghurt’s posts to sadder but wiser. she nailed it.
2- no, he didn’t change for you, instead he sucked the life out of you. just be pissed off about this, you have every right. stop turning that anger against yourself, get it OUT of you – its corrosive and you’re already depressed about it. so, be angry, spiteful, grieving, all of it. find a constructive way to direct it away from yourself – again, you have every right. do something physical, even if its only walking, even if its only STOMPING.
3- STOP imagining yourself in a heap of crap and him dancing with angels and pixie dust. STOP imagining all these possibilites for him and none for you. HE was the jerk, YOU kept trying. YOU should be imagining the BEST for YOU!! if you imagine wonderful things, and believe in yourself, you will literally create this for yourself – no, this isn’t “the secret”, its just a good way to live. and the opposite is also true – so don’t bring negativity toward you, dare to imagine greatness for yourself, it is ENTIRELY possible and probably.
yes, at some point, he may bring some cool woman to a family function but why does that mean that you can’t bring some cool man?!?
ok, so you spent a long marriage with an EU guy, so maybe you were in part EU. but it doesn’t matter how old you are, you can absolutelyhave a glittering life!
one thing i will tell you that you already know – men do not take time to grieve and work on themselves as women do – they rush right out and start making connections.
DO NOT BE DECEIVED BY THIS and try to not feel too bad about it – right now he is walking biohazard and woe betide anybody that gets involved with him. i’ve been dating for a few years now, and i won’t go anywhere near a separated man who hasn’t had his rebound relationship. no matter what he says or how shiny he tries to look, he’s a mess, he’s ENTIRELY focused on himself (which is nothing new for your ex), he’s trouble for any woman, and he’s just a dog being wagged by his own dick.
you start getting on your own side right now. you believe in you, you invest in you, you were the one who did ALL that work during the marriage, you have a LOT coming to you. so you bring wonderful things into your life. and screw that lazy, selfish, EU fucker of an ex – you make a good life, starting now.
be fierce! you can absolutely do it!
CC and Yoghurt,
*Revs falls off the bed laughing*
I swear, you guys. Remember slumber parties where you laughed so hard with all of your friends that one of the girls fell off the bed? That was just me. 🙂
What can I say? Pristine logic, sound advice, compassionate prose.
*bows to CC and Yoghurt*
I iz in awe – MAN! that was good advice.
NAILED IT!
Espresso,
I don’t know what to say other than, in my limited opinion, you’re doing everything right. I’m afraid that you’re the one who ended up married to an EUM, and we can all now see how that goes. And just because he went on to someone else does not necessarily mean he’s somehow become emotionally accessible and that this relationship won’t crash and burn.
You know, so many women on this site spend so much time worrying about their ages. It’s not fair and it’s not right. I’m wondering if there’s something Natalie can enlighten us about in that respect. I mean– think about it. The maths doesn’t work out, if ALL men left their girlfriends/wives for younger women! It just isn’t true! Otherwise the entire population of 50-something guys would be with women under 35… and all men under 35 would be, what, without wives and girlfriends?? It just doesn’t bear out in reality. The older a man is, the more ‘lower grade’ he is — consequently he has a more and more limited pool of women who will accept him. WOMEN, not men, ARE THE CHOOSERS.
WE know that 26 year old girls would prefer to be with 26ish guys, and 46 year old women would prefer to be with 46ish guys… that’s much more compatible long term and isn’t a major life-ruining compromise for the women who have to go shopping for their boyfriends’ trusses when they’re 30…
Griz
Don’t you think that it’s a reflection on the sort of scuzzbucket that this site is about?
I’d imagine that an emotionally available, thought-through dude who’d actually considered what a long-term relationship was going to involve (aging, apart from anything else) would realise that age was really a very small factor compared to things like: Can Talk To Each Other, Enjoy Each Other’s Company, Has A Worthwhile Character.
On the other hand, the emotionally UNavailable, ill-thought-through dude is going to be going “Hmmm, relationship criteria… Hot Bod, Trophy That Impresses Mates, Easy To Control. So the obvious answer is someone younger.
That’s not to say that relationships can’t work with an age difference or that there’s anything necessarily wrong with an age-gap in either direction, but if someone is ACTIVELY SEEKING a younger woman then, really, you’ve got to ask yourself why…
Yes, Griz.
And might I add (yet again, so stop me if you’ve all heard this…) the fact that my ex-EU is 43 and replaced me (34 at the time) with a 46-year old woman. I must admit that during the devestation and hurt, I actually DID think, “Well, at least this experience blew that whole ‘Men always go for younger women’ bullsh**t RIGHT out of the water!”
I’ve also had men like me over younger women, so it’s never a linear process. Age is relative with assclownery, I guess. 🙂 I don’t know if that’s comforting or terrifying….
An AC I was involved with many years ago cheated on me with and then dumped me for a girl who was paralysed from the waist down having broken her back in a car accident. You could say at least he was equal opportunities in his ACery. She at least had the guts to dump him a few months later.
LOL!!! “Equal opportunity assclownery.” Effin love it.
You see, even a paralyzed woman can kick an AC’s ass to the curb! Gives us all hope in Womankind. 🙂
Hello espresso. I really feel your sadness about the end of your marriage but clearly you tried harder than he had any right to expect. The others are right though. YOu have projected him as being this totally changed man living an emotionally fulfilled life with a great relationship. Really? YOu sure? I seriously doubt it! I was upset when my 14 year marriage ended and my ex went straight into another relationship but I stuck to my own plans and stayed single for 2 years. It sounds like you are still very invested in your ex and what he is doing. This chapter of your life is all about you. You say your kids are grown. Time for you. Use it well.
Hey you guys. I have been going to his site for a while now off and on. I keep struggling with a man in/out of my life. We even went five months NC but he came out of the blue with a text like I think of you often… I am sure you all know how it goes.
How do you break this? I am not one to go NC. I feel bad about ignoring someone. I Am SO nice. I just need a little encouragement. I know I am a great person and worth so much more. I deserve way more than he is giving me. (NO commitment, “just dating” 2 times a week, we used to be committed and after 10 months he just decided it wasn’t for him) I feel like such an idiot. I have never felt like this about anyone. I have never felt so close to someone. I am 32 years old and I must admit I am afraid I will never find another man like this. It sounds silly but I can’t break free! 🙁 I don’t know why.
Hi Vee!
Welcome to BR! 🙂 Here, you can put your pencil box next to mine. 🙂
We’re about the same age, and so I feel like I can talk peer to peer with you. First, I know you’re hurting. It’s not fun, and not NATURAL, to be treated this way by a man. Nope, you didn’t miss anything. Nope, you didn’t cause it. Nope, you can’t fix it.
He sounds like he made his decision, backing off after those 10 months, and then NC for 5 months. I’m sorry, but that tells you all you need to know. Read Natalie’s posts (if you haven’t already. Forgive me if you have.) about pressing the reset button, the “I miss you but we’re not getting back together” one, etc. And then read all of the COMMENTS from each post. They are eye-openers. Lots of nice, beautiful women here who’ve gone through the same stuff, unfortunately. BUT we’re here, growing and moving on to bigger and better men.
Like a lot of the commenters here say, it’s like kicking an addiction with these men. And make no mistake: it’s not hard to kick because they’re so GREAT, it’s because they’re so freakin’ BAD for us. They’re like excitoxins that eff with our systems. The more you stay NC, the easier it will be. And don’t get fooled by this fool’s attempt at trying to worm his way back into your life with a measly text. Read your first part of your comment again (backs off the relationship, then NC for 5 months without hearing from him). Actions speak louder than words. He’s a douche. You’ll find better.
((HUGS)) Vee. Keep reading. And vent to us when you need to. Pay special attention to CC’s comments. That one’s a firecracker if I ever saw one. 🙂 And she’s right. on. the. money.
Hey Vee.
Believe me, I know it’s hard. I attempted to drug and drown myself after my separation from my ex-husband. I look back on that time with a shudder and a laugh. I honestly don’t give two sh*ts about him now. I don’t hate him; I don’t love him. I don’t feel anything for him.
THIS TOO SHALL PASS. Just allow yourself to go through the grieving process. The sooner you start taking the “medicine” of NC the better. The longer you wait; the more you go back, the sicker you become. I too thought, “I will never find another man like this.” But you know what? I did. And he ended up being just as big as an ass as my husband. Pray that you don’t find another man like that. Keep coming here and read through NML’s posts and all the other stories of the amazing women on here. You’re not alone. You can do this. We all can do this.
Oh, and by the way, you’re not *mean* by going NC. By allowing this guy into your life, you’re being *mean* to yourself. Boundaries aren’t “being mean”. They are vital for your physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual health.
((hugs))
This thread is gold – so much awesome advice – and thank you cc for enjoying my flight.
Espresso while reading you I couldn’t help buy think of my mom who found herself separating after a 21 year marriage with a passive chronic manipulative cheater- who she never knew even went to the extend on hitting on her daughter (yes me) .
That being said, when she left she was a going on 50 mother of 2 that had to redefine herself as a woman and not just a wife and a mom. I remember seeing her working on her body, on her social skills just to revamp a self esteem that had vanished along with her feminity while she spent all these years being the man in the house. Flirting online was her thing, no strings attached or anything just healthy attention, think she even revamped her first love story with a man she though she would marry when she was a teenager had her family approved ( turns out, thank god she never married him – my! Was he useless !
Anyway fast forward 2 years later, she went to visit her sister whom she hadn’t seen in years. The sister was opening a new business and celebrating the launch on my mom’s arrival. Little did she know she would meet a man there that would be everything she had ever wanted in a man. Love at first sight even though they live in different countries ( 7 h flight ) and it’s been 5 years.
One thing I know for sure, she NEVER doubted that she would meet someone else, I will even go as far as saying it wasn’t an option not to . Her love story is the most inspiring I have ever heard and they are so meant to be it’s fascinating to me.
Take it one step at a time Espresso, but you have to focus on you first and foremost. Stop making him the driver of your emotional balance, he’s not the boss of you nor is he your husband anymore – you do not need to put all that energy in him anymore nor struggle to find solace.
You now have the room to be the best you can be and when you focus on that, everything else can fall into place (that goes for all of us having a hard time moving on me thinks )
Ps : forgot to mention : My mom was alwas a bit sad she had never had a church wedding because her former husband had already been married. Well, just came from her church wedding last month : she was a gorgeous 52 year old bride –
CC- I only saw your ‘Limpdick Fastforward’ post now – and boy did that nick name make my day.
You know I recently told my friends that what got to me was how prettier than me she was’ in the sense that she always has flawless make up, perfect hair, she’s of average height with a thin figure – a little boob and absolutely no derriere to speak of ( it actually goes reverse) and she’s a love handle kind of girl when she gains weight she spills on the sides – let’s not forget that darn pout),
She speaks very softly and never makes waves – when she laughs it’s not too loud and her movements are all so damn girly, though I’m sure she knows how to be bossy ( she’s a virgo after all, she laughs at stupid jokes where I would make a WTF face, she’s in IT so she’s a bit of a nerd in the intellectual way.
I on the other hand, when my friends describe me they say I’m colorful, bubbly, all over the place, I can act very goofy and like to wear all types of styles because I’m blessed that they suit me – I change my hair every other month, I am an artist and I am full of crazy stories that people say I should write a book about.
Most of my friends call me the Oracle or the goddess because I m tall and very curvacious ( and a lot thicker than she is but mainly in my chest and derriere) .I’m that friend everybody comes for advise or for the wise word of the day. Though I too am on the virgo cusp I m more of a libra.
He’s definitely a lot more like her than he is like me. Which makes sense why he would have chosen her instead of me. But it makes absolutely no sense that I would choose him.
When you said ‘ who we choose reflects what we think of ourselves’ it hit a chord so hard I felt the need to do 500 m sprint. I even made it my status for anyone who can relate.
I then realized that when I first chose him, I must not have thought much of myself and was very shallow in my relationship with me. I remember thinking he was handsome with a great sense of style and there was this mystery and this anger about him that made him somewhat intense. At first he was a fun person that liked to go out and be social, like me – he loved music and I am a musician which he was super supportive about. We both loved travelling and cooking ( which I don’t imagine she does because she’s a bit of a princess)
That’s about it : soon I discovered, he was also unreliable, inconsiderate, selfish and never did what he said he would or call when he said he would. He was manipulative but cowardly when the ish would hit the fan and most of all he was technically smart but had no real depth to speak of. When he cared, he made beautiful gestures but he only cared when he could get something out of it. And he never had the guts to face me after everything that happened – Though I have sen him follow through with her.
I don’t know how I could have ever had such a low opinion of myself. that’s more saddening than this whole ordeal.
It is hard to watch them and until now, i actually have to remember it happened because it seems so surreal – but you know what, before me,there were countless other women who had the same experience with him, some who gave him a lot more love and time than I did – one of which I even know, he refused to marry because he wouldn’t convert – she was very pretty but apparently a bit dumm ( unlike the current one). I can not even begin to imagine how betrayed she must feel.
I always tend to come to the same conclusion, somehow I really did get the better end of the deal.
lyly-
see? good!
every time someone says to me, “good riddance, you dodged a bullet” i want to punch them. hard.
but, really, its entirely true, however much it hurts to “lose”, but that “losing” is really just a perception, a translation that we haven’t gotten what we want yet. and we just need to tweak our perspective, and STAY ON OUR OWN SIDES, to see everything more clearly.
you sound like a vivacious, wise, funny, talented woman who is rich in gifts. remember that. don’t spend yourself on somebody who is only 1/4″ thick … pun intended.
Lyly,
I already like you. Go on with your bad self. This guy wasn’t worth half of what you are. For real. He was intimidated as f**ck. You were like climbing Everest. He’s happy with a day hike (pout girl). Wait for a real man.
CC – Revolution I heart you both ! Thank you for listening to me vent for the past century and a half.
I’m getting there slowly but surely , and talking to strong sensible women such as yourselves definitely help.
CC, you’re right – we should always stick on our own side no matter what, and change our perspective when it gets hard.
Rev, I digs you too 🙂 and you’re totally right : I deserve a full man who also wants a full woman, a Jessica Rabbit, rather than Paris Hilton’s shorter twin sister.
But most of all, I’m starting to get it. I’m understanding that it’s not me, it’s him that was just not it, and that I was subconsciously already aware of that – which is why I ran without being able to explain it to myself.
I owe this shift a lot to this thread, and to you ladies 🙂 it still feels uncomfortable but now it makes sense.
AWESOME!
Runnergirl… I guess that’s why the laundry and other such stuff are battles … he’s not working full time or going to school. I am not enjoying this one bit. Its like a squatter has taken over part of my home and when I request some responsibility, he turns around and tells me how shitty I am.
Since ending it with my unavailable ex I now see that under the relationship highs and devastating lows, I felt two prominent emotions throughout our dalliance:shame and guilt. Shame when I was with him and guilt when I was away from him.
I recently distanced myself from my unavailable father and, after an awkward run in with him at a family event, I realized I felt a disproportionate level of guilt for things being “bad” between us. And believe me he’s not making it any better. Instead of respecting my wishes for distance, he’s persuing me with thinly veiled and disguised proclamations that are really guit trips. Subtle: I almost missed the guilting until I read this and it confirmed my uneasiness.
Now that I think of it my unavailalbe ex took a victim stance in almost everything and made it out to seem as if he was such a nice guy and things just never quite worked out for him. Not true. He was a user who seduced and manipulated women so he could whittle down their self esteem and control them. Thank goodness I was able to get out. I now see his subtle ways of guilting and manipulating and am still dealing with feelings of guilt in regards to our dalliance. When a relationship doesn’t work out I’ll take all the blame and try and “fix” myself so as to make the relationship good enough. Truth is I can’t change the other party. I can’t make them be responsible and love me. I cannot. Sometimes all I can do is take a step back or many and walk away.
Thanks! I will keep visiting and reading and reading and reading. I know I need to kick this “addiction”. I am happy here because I feel like you can relate to me. Here we go!
It’s alright Rev. I’m still most comfy rockin a pair of levi’s the best (preferrably in stiletto’s with a dirrty big fat guit-ar) lol
I hope things go ok with the friends. I fronted one last night whose suddenly all snuggly with someone I had to totally cut out of my life for straight up tretchery a few years back. I stopped short of calling any ultimatums but I let it be known my frienship does not come free, or without strings attached. I do expect a measure of loyalty. This woman has been on welfare her entire life (she’s almost 50) & is now quite comfortable thanks to a recent inheritance but I can see the differences between us ‘grate’ at times.
I actually said to her, as we talked about another mutual aquaintence (also welfare dependent all her life, like her) ‘show me your friends & I will show you who you are’, before explaining my closest mentor is a social researcher (like I was before illness struck) & doing her PhD, another an author / psychologist, two others partner lawyers, another barrister & well,… you get my drift. I don’t put up with BS in friendships b/c the ppl I associate myself with are frankly all too busy, as too am I. I don’t think she quite got it, but I’m sure you do. The point is not snobbery but keeping things real. The busier people are the more pressure there is to cut the crap & keep & keep it real (which isn’t say there aren’t exceptions, but generally I find that successful people are more adept at assertiveness). So, go get em, Revo!! You rock chicky babe!!!
Meanings… Feelings…. I sat with deep heavy heart tonight… The ‘dead’ thing again… Thoughts of ‘him’… I’ve realised why there is no grieving… It’s not safe to yet… I’m caught up in a whole other battle for a certain time frame to come… Finally it makes sense… I AM frozen… Literally… I knew something was not right here… Everything is dark in this place until it is safe to feel again.. Nothing I can do except hang on….
Thanks to everyone who responded to my rather sad and frustrated rant about leaving a long term marriage and being self-trapped in “what if’s” about him. It was so exciting to get a response and very helpful and MUCH appreciated.
I was doing pretty well after I decided to end the marriage a year ago – very goal focused and energized and moving forward. Lots of stimulating work, projects, relationships, interesting travel, plans,a lovely new wardrobe in which to garb my great body…but was blindsided by being treated in a way I didn’t anticipate a few months later. I never ever expected the depth of my OWN reaction.
Ending a relationship after many many years in a positive way (my wish too) is complicated and there are lots of things to “deconstruct” even a shared business (yes, ouch). I never ever wanted something hateful because he isn’t/wasn’t mean at least not deliberately. He is an EUM not an AC. I do see that he is working on change in a real way now, not for me (because the marriage is over). As somebody said though, this can only help me in the future in terms of relationships with our kids, negotiations over business etc. That’s what I think on the best days.
However, I can see that I am still too invested in him, what he thinks and how he acts or what his future will be like. Need to acknowledge my grief and pass through it but re-find my motivation and self worth which seems to have been missing recently. Thanks again…you guys rule!!!
another spot on…perspective…time..space…will always change…but you have to get to the place of change that’s a challenge. Natalie…your a new melanium feminist
I’m writing this because I’m not in the best place and need some guidance if there is anyone out there…I was seeing a guy, he was fun and brilliant,I was emotionally unavailable anmd so was he. Perfect. But then he began to like me more, calling, texting, being around, inviting me out…it suddenly became something more and I liked it, I began to thaw and my feelings changed. As soon as he sensed what was happening, he backed off, said he doesn’t want to be a c*** again like he was in the past and told me he has nothing to give, doesn’t want a relationship. I have been fed up with men for the past 4 years so I burst into tears, he said he still wants to see me and asked to stay. He did, though nothing happened apart from a hug in bed. Somehow after that I was downgraded from possible gf to lover and he began to see me just for sex but when it suited him; usually drunk. When he stopped contact, I didn’t contact him either thinking he just needed space because I knew he had had a rough time with his ex although I didn’t realise their breakup was recent until much later. When I stopped being his lover because he wouldn’t respond to texts or calls, he said he was an ignorant c*** for ignoring me. I still stopped sleeping with him and instead thought we could remain friends because I enjoyed his company and I thought if he could just see that I’m not like the others…blah,blah,blah. The ‘friendship’wasn’t straight forward though – pushing/pulling/hot/cold/coming/going. Eventually I said I was seeing someone new, he didn’t like this so he told me he’s committed to me. I should add that he’s 37 yrs old so I thought that by now I was dealing with a man, not a boy. He wanted sex, we didn’t go all the way because he had pushed and pulled, hot and cold so much that I still couldn’t trust what he was saying was what he meant. Again he ignored me. I saw him out and his words were ‘the only reason why I said I was committed is because you were sitting on my face.’ When I told him how hurt that made me feel, his response was ‘you’re not 18 anymore.’ After that I avoided him completely but we bumped into each other months later and became more like ‘hug buds’ than f** buds’. He told me he’s selfish, he isn’t happy, love is being happy first and so I blame myself for sticking around and for the treatment he dished out, because he was being honest right? During this time he would sometimes put me down, suggest I was sleeping around and say ‘I left your money on the side’ after staying the night. I wanted to stay ‘mates’, but it was always me reaching out to him, trying to help him get a job, feed his ego, let him stay over, share a kiss (but only when he’s drunk because ‘kissing is too intimate’. I stayed away again to see if that might make him miss me and when I reappeared he said he had been looking for me, asking around etc and that he gets on better with me than any other person, but then admitted he has mixed feelings. By now I was fed up and only wanted to stay friends, but he said he wanted me to meet his children. Thinking this was a step forward, I agreed but after that he ignored me again. Some time later, I found out that he was staying at his exes for some personal reason and when I asked him if they were getting close he told me it’s taken him all this time to realise he doesn’t want her back. We had sex, although I told him not to, he did anyway and in the morning he acted as though I wasn’t there. It was about a month later that he admitted to sleeping with his ex ‘because she was lonely’- so he was sleeping with her, then me. To top it all off, he doesn’t use protection, which is another reason why I wouldn’t continue to sleep with him. (apparently he doesn’t know how to use condoms – at 37!). That same night he said I’m the kind of girl he goes out with (because I don’t sleep around), but by then I was exhausted from it all. I knew he would make a crap bf so I actually considered to just being lovers again because I knew the sex was good. (listen to me!) Anyway I asked him to do something for me for a change, thinking he would as I was always there for him but he let me down time and time again, so now I know I was little more than a distraction to him until he figured things out with his ex. I visted him recently because I’d sent him a horrible text telling him how I felt (thinking this was the end of it), but then I heard he’s depressed so in my drunken state I turned up to cheer him up and because I didn’t want us to completely fall out. His response? ‘We’ve had our time – people move on.’ My response? I scratched his car. Not the best move I ever made, it felt good at the time but now I feel bad and need to let go. Was he just an EUM or an AC? Was I the AC to put up with it all (I thought I was in love), and for taking it out on his poccessions? (I know it wasn’t right). I keep thinking he isn’t a bad man, he told me what he wanted, I was just stupid enough to accept his crumbs. When he knew I liked him, he stopped taking advantage sexually (apart from that one time) but adnmitted to ‘feeding off me’ in other ways. I need some closure on this because I’m beating myself up and am expecting you guys to do the same…so lets hear it…
Aw ((((Jemma)))) It feels rubbish, doesn’t it?
Long story short, he’s EU and he’s an AssClown and all the blowing hot and cold, hugging, disregard of your feelings, occasional aggression – all of it – is a really really common MO.
I know that it all feels really strange and unique and unfathomable, and that was the way that I felt about mine for a long time – I thought that it was just me, and that no-one else could possibly fathom the depth of our connection… nah, he was an AC too. And like yours, he was aware of it and understood that he didn’t want to be that way but was anyway.
The taking-advantage-in-other-ways is also pretty common, I think – I remember the first time I found this site I got an article about how people can use you for alsorts as well as sex. I hadn’t realised that – I thought that the fact that he tapped me up constantly for an ego-boost and a shoulder to cry on meant that we were Meant To Be.
It’s horrible. It wrecks your emotional wellbeing and mental health, and the way that you’re feeling (not that I’d condone scratching his car) is completely unsurprising and a completely natural reaction to it.
What would be UNnatural, though, would be to let it go on ANY LONGER – to put it bluntly, and I don’t swear often these days, it’s completely f***ed. And, if you want to be philanthropic about it, it’s the best thing for him too. He apparently doesn’t want to behave like this, yet he does with you. So stop letting him.
There Is No Way that it will ever work out. Stop chasing it and make the decision, in yourself, to get out of this horrible awful loop and set yourself free – go NC. Your life’s too precious to waste feeling as you’re feeling, and that manky, confused, upset, trapped, euphoric, sickened, tearful, bereft feeling that you have right now? That’s how he makes you feel. Pain isn’t love, pain is pain.
Oh, and anyone who calls you a c*** for ANY REASON WHATSOEVER (it’s just about acceptable if you’ve just chopped off one of their fingers. Maybe) does not deserve another minute or another second of your time.
Keep coming here – Natalie’s brilliant, the community’s lovely and it WILL help. I washed up here pregnant, desperate and heartbroken, and it helped me through it. You can get through it too xx
Jemma,
This guy is a real creep with nothing to give anyone. He is a user and a crazy maker, but you have allowed him to disrespect and hurt you. You know this guy is no good, and must understand why you would allow yourself to be treated so poorly.
Please seek treatment to get to the root of your insecurities, so that you may break free and never allow this type of treatment again.
I hope that you have blocked this asshole and gone NC????
Lastly, this man is/was never your friend. Friends do not hurt, use and disrespect this way!
Thanks for your replies – wasn’t expecting to hear so soon! Yes I have gone NC, I fell into a bit of a depression but I know it’s for the best. I was always making excuses for him because I know his ex cheated on him – but that’s reason enough I would have thought to treat people better! I don’t know – maybe he takes his anger out on women and I was in the firing line. Reading my post I can’t beleive this is me. I thought I had higher self-regard but apparently I don’t. I know how to treat people but I’ve forgotten my self-worth and allowed a man to mess me around because I’ve never met a guy I connected with as much as him. (or so I believed at the time). I’ve never downloaded all my feelings onto a website before but this is cheaper than therapy so thought I’d give it a go…I don’t know where the root of my insecurities come from – perhaps a distant father (cheated on my mum,nver got over it) and my ex of 4 years ditched and all he left me with were the words ‘There’s nothing to say’. I later found out he was with someone else. So yeah, I may have a few issues! When I met the EUM I was in the same place as him because I’d given up on relationships, like he has. But I think deep down he wants to be loved like we all do. I’ll try to work on myself before entering another relationship of any kind. And Yoghurt – I don’t know what MO means??
Jemma,
every person wants to be loved, wether they are saints or AC’s or preferable healthy people. The big difference is though, emotionaly healthy people realise there are boundaries, they realise there are 2 people in a relationship where one doesn’t serve the other one in his or her needs, likes or wants, or in their troubles. They realise the other person is just as much there as they are. There is no room for you in such a man’s live because he is completely absorbed with his own issues. He may have had his ‘days’ but when it comes down to it, you have to silence your needs to meet up his. When you truely care about somebody, this behaviour is contraproductive and sabotaging and the most important part, they know this and they. don’t. care. If they would, they’d stop immediately, open up and change their ways as soon as the morning they wake up with somewhat of a sober morning.
I used to think I had to deal with a nice man with ‘a lot on his mind’. I wasn’t. I was dealing with an asshole ‘with a lot on his mind’.
Sofie I loved your reply. It was thought provoking without putting me in my place. I agree with you. Why do I spend so much time and energy on a guy that’s so useless?? His friends and family all thought ‘I was the one.’ but he couldn’t see it. He kept telling me he had been hurt so wouldn’t commit. I always knew he was unbalanced, he wasn’t shy in telling me he couldn’t offer me anything. It was because of this that I used to think that I should have just settled for the great sex and good fun but incidently I was missing out on him because he wasn’t ‘there’. It was when we weren’t having sex that I felt most connected because he shared himself more; he was closer and more intimate. Yet I know I never had him, maybe no one will. I know I was nothing special to him because he’s having sex with anyone he can. I don’t know why I can’t get past this and feel so down about someone whose treated me the worst out of anyone. I live in a small town so it won’t be long before we bump into each other and I don’t want to think how I will feel when I see him with someone new. Yet I know I don’t want him back in my life. It’s just a mixed bag of emotions!! I don’t know why I chased for so long; I think towards the end it was what we used to have that I wanted, not him. I think everyone who contributes to this site is amazing – you all seem much wiser than I! xx
Jemma,
when you really long for companionship and warmth, and this person comes along and initialy gives this to you (especialy after you for example have been single for quite some time) it can feel so so so good. It’s like your hair looks good évery day, your eyelashes never seemed longer, your skin glowes and everybody tells you how happy you look. It’s that feeling you feel robbed off and you also wouldn’t be able to stand to see another girl look like this. Yes, the *feeling* is great. It’s the guy that isn’t. After a while everybody romantically involved with this baby will turn grey and sour, it’s not you. Try to avoid the places he goes just for a while, that helped me a lot. I used to want to be strong and not let me be scared away of mutual hangouts. Yeah right, did me NO good. First heal and get to understand the dynamics of why you are feeling this way. If you have to, think of his usual routines and try to avoid them. I know how much it hurts to even see a glimps of that man, it can really set you back. Or try walking with eyes focused to *ignore*. I think that way I might have encountered him in streets or shops, without even noticing it 😉
Jemma be glad you have got away from this man. Many of us here have had really similar experiences. My Ex EUM was fantastic in the beginning. I was so bowled over by all the attention affection and romance, and as Sofie says, it is THAT I miss rather than the emotionally stunted dysfunctional man he turned out to be. A common thread for the woman who post here is that we are good looking, strong, intelligent women who are frankly stunned at ourselves for ending up in this position where we are obsessed and almost mortally wounded by these men. Mine called me recently after a month NC and I stupidly engaged with him. God it felt so good for a while, talking to him, sharing our little jokes, but he soon made it clear he still “was confused” and “didn’t know what he wanted.” he suggested we meet up but added that “it won’t be like it is in the movies.” OUCH!! I will try not to answer next time he calls wanting an ego stroke. I recommend you read Nats post about 12 core boundaries (just put it in the search engine). That has really helped me understand my contribution to the relationshit. Stick with us and read all the articles. It will get better.
Victorious, I think that post is brilliant – wish I knew about this site much earlier! I hate feeling so self-indulgent by oversharing but this is really helping in a way I can’t explain or be thankful enough. It’s funny how when I finally pulled myself up from the last disasterous relationship, I promised myself I would never do anything I don’t want to again, I’d never put up with any crap because I’m too important not to put me first. But meeting the EU blew that out the water because he called ME selfish! My guard to protect me from men like him had to come down because I thought his anger, meaness, indifference, aloofness (after the hot period) towards me was because of how the mother of his children had mistreated him and he was scared of getting hurt. So foolishly I let him in, forgave when I shouldn’t, let him take advantage and allowed him to mess up all the hard work I had built up over the years in an effort to show him that I was worth it!! This site has allowed me to realise that I do want to feel cherished and adored and loved, and having to second-guess and chase, drop standards and boundaries and be put on ”hold” is such a mistake. No man is worth this much pain. Just by spending thinking power on this man makes me annoyed because there’s no chance in hell he’s thinking about me and how sorry he is.I have such dark moments some days but you guys have been bloody brilliant. I just hope that what I’m saying now will stay with me in the morning and beyond…xx
MO stands for modus operandi – Latin for method of operation.
I seem to come across it a lot in books about police hunting serial killers…
I hope that your comment about ‘putting you in your place’ wasn’t intended for me – I’m sorry if I made you feel that way – not the intention!
Reading about the awful way that men like this behave towards people who really don’t understand what’s going on does tend to bring out my inner ranter, though!
lol,I’ll bear that one in mind! MO is a very good descriptive (I thought you meant Man Odour!) I really appreciate all the emotional support I’ve received and wasn’t aimed at you, I’m just very ultra-sensitive at the moment but I’ll get over it with you guys. I know there are bigger and more important things going on in the world, which sometimes makes this feeling so trival but believe me, your advice and support is exactly what I need.
Hmmm, I know that there ARE bigger and more important things going on in the world, but I also know that when I was where you are then it didn’t feel like it!
This sort of situation strikes at the heart of who you think you are and your whole perception of the world – you start to wonder if, when you’ve been so wrong about someone, you’ve been wrong about EVERYTHING.
It isn’t trivial at all – it strikes at the heart of who you are and (at the risk of getting a bit Cod PsychoAnalyst), this particular situation is probably a culmination of a lot of painful situations – your ex sounds like a git, btw – that you lived through before it. So it’s mega-painful.
I went through a phase of feeling completely unable to talk to anyone in RL about anything, I felt cut off from everyone. They didn’t understand how the whole thing was constantly running through my mind, and didn’t understand why I’d care. It’s really isolating.
That’s why this blog is so brilliant 🙂 It’s not a nice thing to have to go through (although I reckon better to go through it than to not go through it, and have to struggle through life with the same patterns), but it’s easier when you’ve got clear and very wise explanations and other people who know how it feels.
Lots of hugs xx
Thanks Yoghurt, this has been tough, I still find myself telling myself he isn’t a nice person rather than believing it, I still carry a lot of blame on my shoulders and actually envy women that can sleep with men without allowing their emotions to get in the way. When I told him how I felt, he just dismissed it as the ‘hug bug’ so I guess he’s used to women falling for him. Hopefully I’ll be able to stop caring so much soon xx
I came across these blogs and comments and how they strike a number of chords with me..it does help to have the support and understanding of others that are facing the same struggles and predicaments. What rang true in this comment was how isolated one feels. People around me all tell me brush it off and get on with things. I completely understand their opinions but I feel so bad inside. There are a mixture of emotions, betrayal, rejection, hurt, disappointment, doubt, loss…
I hope to roll out my story and hopefully perhaps you lovely ladies could comment?
Thanks Sofie, I feel like an utter idiot for feeling this way but I think I’ve forgotten how I’m supposed to be treated, how relationships are supposed to be. When he would say I’m not 18 anymore I would actually doubt myself and wonder if I was overreacting to the situation. I just lost myself. I don’t know if this is the answer but I’m seeking a fresh start someplace new, new job, new friends, new scenery. It’s ironic that when I first met him I told him I was holding off for ‘the one.’ His reply? ‘I’ll treat you like a princess.’ Never again.
oh Jemma hun, do not feel like an idiot. How can you be an idiot for wanting to love and be loved. You are not even naive, you were being tricked with future faking and subtle litte picks on your insecurities but we think it comes from a place of love. That’s a misconception, not dumbness. Funny enough, these men who jump up and down & pull out real stunts when you even try to mention something remotely close to their ‘issue’,feel like they can put US down (yeah, me to, I was ‘stupid’ or ‘unwise’ too) whenever they feel like it, but we STILL don’t see the light or head for the door. So they think what preoccupies their mind is so much more important than how you feel or how their words & actions affect their partner.
It is SO selfish.
It took me a year and an awfull lot of introspection and patience and work and trying to hold my ground, to be where I am now, and I’m certainly not ready for dating, but I àm over him. And yes, for me personally, it ment I had to cut chords with many other aspects in my life that were holding me down i.e. bad friends and such. Experiences like this often show us what else is ‘wrong’ in our lives, if we are willing to open our eyes. And opening them sometimes means opening up a box of old hurts and initialy you’ll feel worse but one day you’ll wake up and feel better than ever before. True-er. More authentic. More peaceful. Calm.
Step by step, day by day. You WILL get there if you really want to face the challenge. It’s an important one where you can only come out better, stronger, happier. Stay here and lick your wounds. Happy to have you 🙂
It’s been great talking to you – you just seem to ‘get’ it. You’re right about pulling guys up with their own issues; he would get angry, bury his head in the sand or run back to his ex for comfort sex (or anyone for that matter). I don’t want to be like that, I want to be free of the hold he has on me by working through it, not find a ‘distraction’ to hurt and confuse. How f***d up is that if that’s what he has to do in order to feel better about himself?? I think my problems lie in the fact that my ex of 4 years told me he didn’t want to settle down and apparently ‘he was holding me back’ but then promptly left me for someone else and moved in and got engaged a whole 6 months later whilst I was still picking myself up from the floor. It took me years until I liked someone new, he made out he wanted to be with me, told me he was in love, and then afterwards confessed he only said it to get me into bed! Luckily I didn’t fall for his ‘charms’ because deep down I knew he was bad news. Then I began to like this new EU guy, which went to shit. So all in all I’ve had enough! I don’t want to drag anyone down with this but just writing on here makes it feel a little less worse, so thanks Sofie. Your support is bigger than you might realise.xx
Reality check please:
Before I launch into this story, I just want to say that I already know the ways I’m ruminating and thinking is not productive. I know better, but somehow still have found myself in a mess. I do need to get this out of my system though, before I work on getting back in my own head.
I have this very good friend that I have spent much time with. He is a really lovely man. Truth be told, I have always at some level imagined ‘what if’. Lately,like the last four weeks, we have become closer. I really don’t know who started it, but spending more time together, phoning a lot when not together, keeping close tabs on eachother in our group of friends. It began to feel couply. A week ago we began to holds hands, and sit close to eachother.
Well, two days ago, it happened. We spent the night together. Again, no plans were made for this to happen, it just wordlessly happened.
This is why I should know better: he is fresh out of a long term relationship. Despite months, years now even, reading this blog, there I went: straight into the fire.
So last night, whilst we were out with our group of friends we agreed that we needed to go off somewhere to talk about what happened. I couldn’t believe what I heard, it was like reading everything that is written about EU people on this blog. He said it’s all complicated right now, he doesn’t regret it but hasn’t got time/space in his life for a relationship. Yada, and more of the same. Then he asked me for a hug.
This is where I go back and forth between knowing what I did to get in this mess, and being really angry at him for allowing it to happen if he felt this way. I keep going over a lot of what he said, knowing full well it doesn’t add up, and contradicts itself. I know from reading this blog, that is the time to flush. I want to flush, but I can’t stop focussing on what he said and what he didn’t say.
I will say this, which is what I would say to him if I were speaking to him today: how could he do this to me, knowing full well he didn’t want it to go anywhere, and knowing me and my vulnerabilities?This has been building for weeks, it’s not like an accident. How could such a nice man turn out to be so typically EU, when he wasn’t in our friendship.
I feel used by him, and I’m angry. So this is the reality check: is this normal to be angry, or is this my fault?
Olivia
Not your fault, many women have been caught out by this sleeping with a friend thing. Just because, or maybe because, you are friends, don’t automatically expect it to become a relationship.
The bf was my friend before we dated. We held hands. But it was very soon after that he declared he liked me. We then went on a proper date with a place and venue. I was extremely mindful of some of the horror stories here so I was never going to get too couply without knowing where we stood.
Chalk it up to experience and ask yourself if you can remain friends. Not to punish him but so you can move on.
And don’t put your men friends on a pedestal either. This man is not that great, really.
Thank you to Grace, Laura, Yogurt and Teddie! This is exactly what I came here for, and because this post is about guilt, and I was feeling all guilty about this, I knew my head was missing a link. I have so put him on a pedestal, you’re right.
Not only that, in our big conversation he actually told me that he was not as good as I was making him sound. I can’t remember which post this was in, but I remember reading here somewhere that early days, they will tell you that there will be shady behaviour.
Seems that I’m not yet cured of my ability to get in a mess, but this today has helped me enormously before I got silly-deep in do do.
This is a great site, thanks again. It’s really true, change the meaning, change the feeling. It still sucks, but now I know where my own head is, and I will just let one lie there.
A lot of men and women get caught up in the sex-as-comfort scenario, or sex-as-a-way-to-banish-loneliness-for-a-moment, or sex-to-help-me-get-over-feeling-bad-about-an-ex, or sex-just-because-it’s-comfortable-with-my- friend right now. This might be what your guy friend was feeling at the time. Sometimes it can be really comfortable and easy to fall into the sex thing with a good friend, and it does feels good and safe – but more often than not it doesn’t signify anything more than that. It’s not a relationship or even close. And it really isn’t appropriate to get angry with him or even feel “used” because it happened, since there was no discussion beforehand, no understanding and agreement of what it would mean and apparently no violation of trust. You did what you did. It is was it is. He is who he is.
I think more than anything you’re angry with yourself because you allowed yourself to cross that line before you were ready to deal with the emotions that were bound to come up, and also quite disappointed that it didn’t turn out to be what you wanted. He didn’t respond the way you hoped, and that is disappointing. It’s not your “fault,” it’s just something that looking back now you probably would not do again. So take responsibility, learn from it but don’t beat yourself up about it!! I wouldn’t demonize him either.
Browsing the Internet I found this extremely simple, still effective idea: if you’ll think you’ve lost your soul mate, of course you’ll be devastated and miserable and nothing will matter. But come on, which of us could say our ACs/ EUMs were our soulmates, no matter how good you seemed to click at certain areas, if he/she only wanted things on their terms, disregarding your needs and your feelings? Nobody would not even want a friend who is like that, so why would we need a partner for life who acts in this manner?
I like it 🙂
The bother is that by the time they choose to make it BLINDINGLY, UNDENIABLY obvious that they aren’t our soulmate, we’ve already scrambled our own signals and over-ridden most of our common sense in the process of forcing ourselves to believe that they are, really.
There were lots of reasons why Son’s Dad was never going to be my soul-mate, the biggest and most obvious of which was that he didn’t want to be with me (!!!Duh….). BUT I was a Cancer and he was a Cap, and he had green eyes and all my past boyfriends have had green eyes, and we had the same initials and… and… and then I was going to have his baby, so it was a REAL mess.
In hindsight, it was much harder extricating myself from the impenetrable web of my own silly beliefs (and one of the disadvantages of being clever is that you can, if you put your mind to it, very effectively bamboozle your own common sense) than it was getting over the actual factual HIM.
So right! This is in Nat’s terms “taking him off the pedestal we’ve put him on”. yeah, he’s not all that, an this is not just some “the grape is sour anyway”-talk, he is not that special!
Okay lovely ladies, I tried leaving a comment under the blog..When and ex returns but couldn’t.
I am hoping you all could offer advise and some support please. It’s not a good time, I was made redundant, lost my flat and the rest.
The most aching part is losing a guy I thought meant the world, turns out after reading much of the comments and blogs here he was indeed an assclown, unavailable man.
I me him 2 years ago, I was low, we worked on a project together. I was seperated at the time, as strange as this is going to sound I was still a virgin my husband had not consummated the marriage. Long story, this guy called Andrew came into my life and swept me off my feet. I had never been treated so well, the lovely emails, texts, the love, the absolutely stunning places he would take me. I didn’t sleep with him. After a 3 months, I lost all inhibitions and we stayed the night together and so it continued, he never pushed for sex. We could sleep together but not sex.
In this mix he had a girlfriend, he explained they were seperated and she was only living in his house because she was on her own and had nowhere to go.
After 6 months he dumped me, saying that he was afraid of a mixed race child, I am Asian and he is white. About cultural differences. He loved me but he loved his girlfriend.
I let him go.
I did send him messages here and there but never heard from him.
He returned 6 months ago after 18 months of no contact. His girlfriend was moving out and we got together, we started looking at houses, talked about children. In fact I finally slept with him and he said he did not mind if I fell pregnant as he knew I wanted that.
It was all going okay, there were moments I got upset as he would still call this ex when he was with me, he would make so much time for her. I filled the gap. He had loads on during the Olympics and I was there, to sleep with him, cook and steer him on.
He would see me maybe once a week and would make me feel so happy ans cherished and loved. I was so in love. Thinking I was finally in a place I wanted to be.
One day after a great evening, he was in the shower and his phone lay there. I went through it and was sick. He had been seeing and sleeping with another
Girl, I felt so humiliated. I confronted him, he shouted at me saying how could I check his phone. He didn’t discuss the other girl. He said I obviously had thought we were much further along in this relationship than I thought!
There was no contact but typical me thinking I will never find anyone else, that I am too ugly, etc..I emailed him after 3 weeks. He came back saying he too missed me and wanted to regain what we had.
We arranged to meet…he cancelled on me twice!! Saying he was too busy, funny enough it was him who had set the talking time up.
He completely disappeared. I never heard from him.
I emailed him to ask if he had anything to say and he asked if I was okay. I went mad and really told him off, that he needed to see a psychologist.
He never once contacted me again.
Instead he updated his status 2 days after I sent the email to say he had a new girlfriend…he was so happy, he actually is having the time of his life.
What hurt and still is aching is how gorgeous this new girlfriend is, she is blond, blue eyed, has her own business, is stunning and looks so much fun.
She is thin and knowing him, I am sure he just must think he struck gold. She is smitten I know this from the comments she leaves him. I also know him, he is an awesome Casanova knowing exactly how to play a woman. Truly he should write a book.
I finally blocked him on Facebook, I could not take the pain.
I feel not good enough, my replacement is ten times better than me, even I would chose her over me…
I have accepted the defeat, accepted he has moved on. It’s for the best.
I am keeping to the NC but I am faced with myself now and I am not coping very well. I can’t explain how hurt and stupid I feel. I miss him and then imagine him with his new gf and I coy away.
Anyone out there feeling rough because I do. I have no friends close by, no one that will call me and say let’s go out. No family either close by that I can confide in.
I have had some dark moments..I keep thinking of all the mistakes I made.
Hi Naz,
first of all, I’m sorry this has happened to you. It’s heartbreaking. Not only because it IS, but also because we all know the feeling but all too well.
You do however ring a chord with me, because I know about the loneliness, not being able to talk to somebody who loves you and comforts you and supports you in a time where you réally need somebody to turn to.
It is devestating not to get positive feedback in a time where you really need the warmth of friends, especialy when you feel like you just lost the only support you had.(not true! an AC is never supportive the way it should be, but that’s how it feels when you’re left standing alone)
It’s important to feel all your feelings though, your hurt, your anger, your overall sadness. You need to go through this because otherwise you can not get out of it either. So erhm ’embrace’ it, even wallow in it for a while. But in the mean time take care of yourself, take long baths, cook a special recepy for yourself, watch comforting movies, clean up your place, anything that keeps you busy on yourself and without you really noticing, improves your environment and increases your level of stress.
Write down your thoughts and your experiences about your ex and how you see yourself in it, and please Naz, try not to pin it all down to you.
Write them down clearly objectively and then try to think of it as if it happened to someone else, and how you’d feel if this happened to someone els. This could help with how you feel, what you can do different in the future.
And last but not least, try to screen the people that surround you for somebody who opens up to you. Who could possibly become a friend.
Never give up on that.
It’s so hard, I know it, we all know it, you cry yourself to sleep and really, that’s okay, let it out.
You’ll see, it might take a while, but you WILL feel better, you really really will.
Whenever you feel bad, do come back here.
Hugs.
(((((Naz))))) Horrible situation.
Okay, here are my thoughts:
1) It sounds like you’ve been through the mill, with the end of your marriage (which sounds like an odd situation), losing your job and your flat as well as this this. That’s a lot of awfulness in a short time.
My point is this – try to separate out the issues. Don’t make the fact that you’re miserable ALL about him – you have a lot to cope with. I have a theory that in times of stress when you’ve a lot going on, your brain focuses on ONE issue because that’s all it thinks it can cope with.
I don’t know where you are with the job/house issues but you might find that working to sort those out helps with the way that you feel about him. I don’t quite know how it works – except to make you feel happier overall – but it does.
2) Repeat after me: She Is Not Better Than You. Seriously. If you wanted, you could buy some bleach, work out all day and eat nothing and then you’d be thin and blonde. You could smile maniacally all the time so that you look ‘fun’ – you could even branch out and start up your own business…
But really, would you want to faff about like that just so that you could fit in with the silly stereotypical idea of ‘perfection’ that some nasty, shallow little toerag has had in his head ever since he was ogling the chicks on Baywatch? Come on now – if his love was worth having, hair colour wouldn’t matter to him and neither would *gasp* skin tone.
She may well be a nice person, and good for her if she is, but you can’t really know anything from fb…
…which leads me to:
3) She Has Not Won because He Ain’t No Prize. In fact, I daresay that it won’t be long before she finds that her life is going down the toilet at a rate of knots.
Whether or not she’s what he thinks he wants, she’s besotted with a nasty, small-minded, bigoted, unfaithful, indecisive little coward – and that isn’t a random list of insults, those are things that I can evidence from your post.
He didn’t behave like that because you did anything wrong (other than getting involved with him in the first place, but we’ve all done that). He behaved like that because he thinks it’s okay to behave like that when he feels like it and when he knows he’ll get away with it.
Do you really want a man like that? Would you want to live with or have children with a man like that?
SHE’S the one who – when his initial buzz has worn off – is going to be hanging about, wondering if she’s coming or going and checking his phone from now on. I know that it doesn’t feel like it, but YOU’RE the lucky one. You’re free of him.
I’m latching on to one little bit of your story, Naz (he sounds like an ass and you’re well shot of him) – but one thing I wish I had made part of my list of values that I’m looking for in a guy is Able To Handle The Reality Of The Mixed Race Child.
I’m mixed race, and have dated all kinds of guys outside my race (kind of have to when most people around you are not the same race). So I kind of naturally assumed that everyone I was dating had given some thought to the very concept of interracial relationship and was on the same page as me about it (or else why would they be dating me, right?). Wrong.
Some of the worst hurts have come from dudes whose “discomfort” around race (i.e. racism) only truly disclosed itself when they had to consider kids with me, and it became clear they had no interest in being part of a parenting team that would actively promote their child being proud to be black or indian.
Now I absolutely would not even consider long-term anything, even short term anything, with someone who doesn’t share my values around culture and race consciousness. Last year I dated a mixed-race Asian guy who joked about his mother being “a crazy Asian lady” and said, “Oh, I just consider myself white” – and I knew it couldn’t work between us, because what’s he going to do, raise my kids to disavow their heritage, too?
Just a thought for those of us who by sheer demographics of where we live end up dating interracially – I used to think I was too picky to be bothered by guys not being sensitive to this stuff but it ends up meaning they’re not sensitive to my reality.
In the end it just comes down to refusing to be with anyone who doesn’t know that they’re lucky to be with you.
Oh, ladies I wish I could reach out and show the appreciation I feel for you all allowing me to offload my burdens here.
I try and re-read all that you say here, in the hope it will all sink in.
This guy is still seeing his ex girlfriend, as well as seeing his new girlfriend.
I am trying to make sense of it all, trying to understand what if anything I meant. Stupid me, still looking for validation.
There is more to this story, I think this is an epiphany stage in my life..my father was a brutal man, when I was born he cried because I was a girl. I was given to my grandparents to raise, moving from different aunts and uncles who took care of me.
He was an abusive man, never even looking at me.
He was overjoyed when my brother was born.
He use to beat, rape, swear mother like nothing you could imagine. My mother said it was best I never lived with her. But when I saw her during a few visits, this is what I saw.
I hate my father, I feel ill thinking of him.
I had another relationship before I married, he never wanted me but I chased and hoped that I would change. He called me fatso, pumpkin, ugly…
I married a man, I thought was kind, simple. No airs and graces. It was the strangest relationship. We never had sex in 9 years of being married . We slept in separate rooms. He tried a couple of times because it was time to have children, I was so put off I could not go through with it.
That is where I met this assclown, through work. He was amazing, all the stuff he said, the kind words, he showered me with love and care that I had never had in my life.
Perhaps it was crumbs, but they were good crumbs. They were better than any crumbs I was given before.
I miss the attention. I have never had suitors or guys ask me out. I was always the one in the club holding the other girls bags or the ones the guys use to talk about sport with. No one gave me the time of day. I was never asked out on dates.
I am in bad place right now. Getting out of bed seems in itself so hard.
Your words here though give me hope, give me the chance to perhaps understand better that like a junkie I have to go cold turkey before I can get better.
I wish I could join some sort of support network but don’t know how to find one local.
Thank you so much for letting me be myself here…
Love and light to you all I hope it works out for us all.