Recently, a few people have asked me for advice on a situation that typically goes as follows:
“I’d really like to meet someone for dates / fun / companionship / affection / attention / sex but I’m not looking for a relationship. I like my life right now / I’m still feeling bruised by my previous relationship(s) / I’m super-duper busy and would find it difficult to give myself over to somebody / I have trust issues / I’m really horny / I just don’t want to be on my own. How do I go about meeting somebody? By the way, I don’t want to be with a playa or somebody who treats me casually and they must be _________”, cue list of requirements.
My response tends to go along these lines:
So let me get this right: You want to start dating but you don’t want it to progress into a committed relationship because you like your life too much / you’re emotionally unavailable and basically not over your ex or your past / you’re busier than a president or prime minister / you have difficulty trusting people / you need to get laid / you basically don’t like your own company so are looking for somebody else to give you self-esteem and to shield you from your issues?
You want somebody who doesn’t behave like they’re in a casual relationship or who isn’t flat out avoiding one, to be with somebody (you) that doesn’t want to be in a relationship which would make it casual and who is in fact avoiding a relationship?
Isn’t this a ‘relationship’ all on your terms? Also, if you’re not interested in a relationship, why are there so many caveats and peeves?
Part of the reason why so many people encounter issues with dating is down to a lack of honesty, as in, we can be very contradictory about our needs, expectations and desires and we don’t all date for the same reasons. While plenty date with a genuine view to finding a long-term partner, many date with the view to enjoying the fringe benefits of dating without the ‘hassle’ of emotionally, physically, spiritually, and mentally contributing and eventually committing. Sometimes their attitude is, “If they’re that special, my reticence about being emotionally available and committing will disappear”.
There’s nothing wrong with not wanting a relationship. None of us are under obligation to commit and if all we want to do is get jiggy, have a chat, an ego stroke and a sense of someone being there, there are people out there who will take on this role because it’s all that they want too. The problem isn’t in not wanting a relationship; it’s expecting to subjugate people who want something different to your terms.
If you’ve been treated in this way you have to be careful of doing the same to others. That’s your litmus test: if somebody came to you with this proposition, would you be happy with it?
Never has it been so easy to collect attention, to go on a dates that don’t go beyond one or a few, or to get laid – just go on a dating site or lurk around in a bar. If you want a friends with benefits or ‘companionship’ scenario, there’s someone out there that’s only too happy to oblige. Part of the reason why people are dishonest about their intentions is because they know that in saying what they really want, it ‘narrows’ their options to casual which may be ‘too real’.
If you want a quality relationship or would struggle with the emotional consequences of getting involved even if it were casual, you have to step up and deal with your fears so that you can have the relationship that reflects your true needs, expectations and wishes, not some ill thought out contradictory concept that opens you up to more pain.
The type of situation outlined above isn’t particularly attractive to someone, unless they’re the type that gets off on a challenge, possibly because they haven’t got the self-esteem to turn you down.
Why would someone who actually wants to eventually be in a healthy, mutual relationship be with someone who doesn’t? Of course, this is why a lot of people who don’t truly want a relationship intimate that they ‘might’ change their mind or even say that they do at the outset and then find ‘sudden’ reasons to backtrack on something that they weren’t truly going to do in the first place…
Being contradictory is exactly why so many people end up being the ‘Buffer’ in a rebound relationship or the rainy day activity pack in an unavailable someone’s life who just wants to pass time and avoid themselves.
Ambivalent people who don’t know what they want or do know but don’t want to be honest about it, end up with people who are also contradictory or who will exploit their ambivalence.
There is something very ‘off’ if you feel entitled to seek out or have relationship-minded folk while not actually being genuinely available. It’s also a big problem if you continue the involvement on your terms knowing that the other party is being compromised.
If it’s not mutual, it’s not healthy.
If you don’t want a relationship right now or even ever, be honest with you about those reasons so that you don’t end up setting you up for a fall with contradictory requirements, plus it’s an opportunity to listen to you and discover how to meet your own needs, expectations and wishes in an authentic, healthy manner. If you wouldn’t be content with being treated as an emotional airbag, boredom soother, attention supply, or Dialacompanion or even Dialalay, don’t treat others this way and dress it up as on-so-special, because really, it’s not.
Your thoughts?
About the Author:
Natalie Lue is the founder and writer of Baggage Reclaim and author of the books Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl, The Dreamer and the Fantasy Relationship and more. Learn more about her here and you can also follow her on Facebook and Twitter - @baggagereclaim .
Natalie (NML) – who has written 1082 posts on Baggage Reclaim by Natalie Lue.
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239 Responses to Contradictions: I want to date but I don’t want a relationship but I don’t want to date someone who’s casual either
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This post so used to describe what I used to feel and do without being conscious of what I was feeling or doing. Being Miss Self-Sufficient, Miss Independent got me into the “perfect storm”, an OW. Thanks to you all, I’ve done a lot of digging and I lot of work. I want a committed relationship and I’m willing to be vulnerable.
I know folks differ with regards to the online dating business and after 10 months, I feel like I’ve met them all. This past weekend, I met two tremendously nice guys (maybe my online screening skills are getting better). Although it was only a couple of hours, there were absolutely NO red/amber flags, no bagging on their psycho ex’s, in fact, no mention of ex’s. It was nice. But…here’s the but…I just felt nothing much. I gave it a day, refrained from second guessing myself, and responded to both their second invitations with an honest, respectful no thank you. Even though they didn’t exhibit any AC/EUM tendencies in the first few hours, it was just a no go for me. I remember Natalie’s comment not everyone is everyone’s cup of tea or something to that effect. There are nice guys out there. It just didn’t work for me this time and that is okay. Many thanks Natalie for your dating advice and for helping me to see that I have a choice, assuming I know what I want. Just because a guy ISN’T an AC/EUM doesn’t mean he’s in the door. Darn, though. I wasn’t contradictory even though I could have and maybe would have been!
Runnergirl, sounds like you’re doing really well. I have to do the exact same thing – keep reminding myself that it’s okay to reject a lovely guy, because you can’t feel it with everyone.
OMG Runnergirl – you sound like me to a “T”. I also pride myself on being independent and self sufficient. I don’t like having to rely on a man because 9 times out of 10 they are never around when you need them or if they are there are always strings attached when you ask for their help-been there done that. I question myself as to whether I am “EU” because I like having someone around but not 24/7. i need a lot of “me’ and “alone” time. I know this about me don’t know if it is good or bad. Part of me actually likes the idea of separate living spaces and if you think about it isn’t that how most celebrity couples keep their relationships going? I mean they are always apart, on different coasts, or in different parts of the world.Is it any different? I think these days people as a whole really find it suffocating to have someone around them 24/7. I know I do. Just a thought.I have tried online dating-gave it up -it all seemed so phony and I didn’t want to waste my time. As far as dating someone a guy who comes into our work place was trying to put the moves on me but I wasnt interested and my coworkers kept telling me just be friends with him, I said no way I am not going to give him false hope. I am not interested period-deal with it,And I am OK with that. Just because someone shows an interest in you you don’t have to reciprocate. It’s OK to tell them thanks but no thanks I am not interested-move on.Why waste your time and their time? And once they get their foot in the door they never give up. Better to break their heart then to have them break your heart.
Buffalo
I was so happily independent when I met my boyfriend. I’d not had a date in six years. I had bought a flat and was very comfortable and happy. When I told him how much I liked being single he said , “oh dear”. He must have figured I had no room in my life for him.
It was inconceivable to me that I would be one of “those women” who can’t go two days without seeing her man. When I was on holiday, we missed each other so much!
We see each other at least four times a week now, everyday would not be too much. It’s actually my independence and boundaries that make this possible, not a lack of that. I’m so sure of who I am, and of where I end and he begins that I don’t feel as though I’m being invaded. I have to say he’s a very grounded, centred person who’s caring yet feels no need whatsoever to control me. We disagree on quite a few things but don’t take it personally. We are not codependent. we are two entirely separate people. We mostly have a lot of fun.
We still do our own stuff, we’re not joined at the hip.
The commitmentphobic often talk about needing space, and feeling suffocated. I recognise that very much in my former self, and am sure it drives a lot of EU behaviour. One of my exes would wail about how he needed space. In the end, I gave him so much space I divorced him. (It would have been better if I’d never married him.)
In a way, married men, long distance men, ambivalent men suit us because they never do threaten our space and independence. But it’s so unsatisfying.
As for celebrities, dare I say it, they are not like us and I’m not sure their relationships are the gold standard. And I expect that many are quietly coupled up under the radar in ordinary domesticity. It just doesn’t make the gossip pages.
Grace I am so happy for you that you have such a lovely relationship, all the best to you:)
Buffalogirl, Natalie has a fabulous chapter in Mr. U and the FBG on the Miss Independent, Miss Self-Sufficient type of FBG. That is why we fit to a “T”. In fact, Natalie discovered there are so many of us, she would be doing an entire book. (Remember Nat? I can help.) If you can, order Mr. U and the FBG and flip to that chapter. It’s scary how she describes the independent, self sufficient type and how all that independence and self-sufficiency can be a form of unavailability.
With regards to the guy at work, if you aren’t interested, you aren’t interested. I’m not into breaking hearts or having mine broken. Thus, I wasn’t willing to proceed with the two nice guys. That’s all. I’m not so self-sufficient or independent anymore. I’m into vulnerability and trust, love, and respect!
runner
This independence thing is very interesting to me. My sister and I had a similar childhood (at least my parents were equal opportunity in their abuse and neglect) but she was always adamant that she would get married and have children. She even had the name of her first daughter ready. Me, on the other hand, found the whole concept alien. Even in relationships I was never fully “in” them. I thought depending on someone was weakness, not that I even knew what it meant to depend on someone.
I prided myself on my enjoyment of LDRs and my space. Funny thing, though, I was nearly always in a freakin relationship so I must have wanted SOMETHING.
Even now, in a good relationship, I still see my final three years of singledom as the happiest, if only because of the sheer relief not to be hurting anymore. When I told my sister I might be single for the rest of my life she said “Naaaah, you dont’ want to be alone”.
Age IS a factor. Even in the bible, the apostle Paul urges young widows to remarry but older ones to devote themselves to good works. I think, hang on, nothing has happened to me in my late forties that makes me want love less. In fact, I want it more now I’ve ditched the baggage.
A friend of mine, at 32, was saying SHE might be single for the rest of her life. She’s a green-eyed brunette, athletic with an hour glass figure. I thought “riiiigght”. I know there are some people, sadly, who are so poorly groomed that they can’t seem to attract anyone but we don’t fall into that category. At least someone found us attractive even if they were an AC. And I’ve seen quite shabby people coupled up.
I know many older women who are happy single, so I’m not saying it’s not a viable worthwhile option. It may yet be what awaits me. But – our romantic history, our age, does not preclude us from love if we want it. If we don’t want it, or want to settle for a not-quite-committed relationship, I think that is worth looking at (and I say if you want monogamy with someone for the foreseeable future, you’re committed and responsible to each other whether you like it or not). The reasons could be perfectly valid, but if it’s down to fear (I’ll lose my house, I’ll get hurt, he’ll leave me, I’m too old, I might as well be dead) I don’t think that’s right (not in a moral sense, but in that it’s not the most joyful way to live).
Both of my brothers’ wives have told me they couldn’t live without their husbands. I don’t think they mean it literally but my heart ran cold at the thought of needing someone that much.
I am starting to know how they feel. Right at the heart of love is our human vulnerability. My boyfriend is naturally much more open and loving than I am. It scares me sometimes, I think how can you be like that? and it puts responsibility on me to step up.
At least I passed that early bolting stage.
grace
I really enjoyed reading your comment above (and indeed all your other comments). I’m on a similar journey, trying to remove the ‘in’ from ‘independence’ and your statement ‘Right at the heart of love is our human vulnerability’ really resonated with me. I found the TED talk in the video link below a very interesting view on the topic on vulnerability and hope others do too.
Iain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCvmsMzlF7o
Iain
Thanks, good talk. A few years ago I wouldn’t have known what she was talking about. Now I am starting to get it.
Grace,
Great comment, as always. I can relate to much of what you’re saying. And I, too, am very happy that you have found a good, healthy relationship.
Two things that you said stood out to me:
“…I still see my final three years of singledom as the happiest…”
Hmmm…”FINAL three years.” Interesting word choice.
And this: “When I told my sister I might be single for the rest of my life she said “Naaaah, you dont’ want to be alone”.” I’ve said, and meant, this statement to people in this last year (being in a relationship that hurts vs. being single forever…IF those were my only two options, it’s a no-brainer) and it’s funny how that can bring out others’ horrific projections. It’s like they can’t fathom that being single would be preferable to anything, genocide included. It baffles me.
Grace,
The independence thing for me runs pretty deep which is why Natalie’s description really hit home. Even though I was a kid, I never wanted to end up in my mother’s position. Five kids spaced two years apart and no job, no education, no experience, and thus totally 100% dependent on a man, who was a serial cheater. Your comment made me realize how much I am still reacting to and manifesting that fear which is now completely unrealistic. Unless I adopt 4 kids (unlikely) or get involved with someone with 4 little ones (unlikely), it’s remote that I would find myself in the same position as my mother, yet I’m still acting as though it could happen if I let a guy in. Thank you for sharing your early bolting thoughts. I know I would probably have the same thoughts if I ever walk in your shoes. Just reading your prior comments made my heart race.
It’s the vulnerability. Thank you for helping me connect the dots. Still, at 53,I’m afraid of being in the vulnerable position of my mother even though realistically the chances are remote now. Wow. Just plain wow.
Runner
I am not telling you to date just anybody, but how much can you expect to feel for someone in a couple of hours?
For months my boyfriend made no impression on me whatsoever. I only started talking to him because I felt sorry for him and it was two months after that before I felt any attraction, which was mild at best.
Now I think he’s freakin gorgeous!
Ah good for you Grace. It is so inspiring to hear how things are progressing with you. I’ll bet he is freakin gorgeous. I agree totally about the “couple of hours”. As I responded, rather snarkly, below, there were some hygiene issues that were a MAJOR turn off. With the first guy, I could have spent some time counseling him as to how to dress, bathe, and shave but he’s over 50. I can’t bathe him, shave him, or buy him shoes. As for the second nice guy, who is 56, I can’t teach him to brush his teeth and get him to take care of himself. They were both nice guys but they both needed a steam cleaning, a serious shave, hair cut, a few trips to the dentist as well as the orthodontist. (I couldn’t figure out if the second guy was missing teeth or whether his teeth just needed some serious ortho.) And then maybe a trip to Khols for some clothes. It was like I didn’t want them to touch me. Here’s the but…they were very nice. But, again, it was just plain yuck. It wasn’t that they made no impression, they made a impression and it was contradictory. They were nice and needed a very long, hot, steamy bath for maybe several days or months. I hope this doesn’t sound superficial. It was just yuck. I had to call it even though they were nice.
Runner
Oh dear.
Thr boyfriend may be prematurely losing his hair but he is clean.
Shame these men are so clueless but it’s not your job to wash them.
Eww, ick, washing them just conjured up an unsightly vision. However, I guess that’s what I’ve tried to do with some former ex’s. It didn’t work, btw. This just triggered a memory regarding the lack of basic hygiene with the abusive narc bf, who was super nice in the beginning. I actually did manage to “clean him up” for a short time. It didn’t stick.
Hmmm,got me thinking there,Nat.
Thanks for this.:)
Runnergirl-
I’ve followed your story and am really happy for you. Your progress is inspiring me.
Nat’s post really speaks to me: pretending I am someone else to hide my real needs, which I fear will scare someone off. Better to look cool and confident–and in total control. I have been inching closer to someone these past few weeks and find myself more frightened and insecure than I have ever experienced. I am feeling things for the first time in my life–jealousy, for one. Hide these aspects or reveal them? These are moment-by-moment decisions for me right now. I have to PUSH myself to stay real. He’s hanging in, solid as a rock, but still, my fear is running like an underground stream: how much talking can he stand before he walks? Shouldn’t I just be FUN? I couldn’t tolerate that kind of superficiality in a mate, why do I think he would?
swissmiss,
inhale, exhale… i personally wouldn’t express feelings such as jealousy. they have most probably to do with your own insecurities. take a step back and try to relax. observe and don’t make the mistake of taking the lead.
as nat always says ‘people unfold’. let him unfold, but also give yourself the opportunity to unfold. try to let go of attachment to outcome.
furthermore, if he can’t tolerate what’s important to you (e.g. talking) then he’s not a match for you. if he can’t stand it and walks… let him walk.
good luck
Swissmiss, you are feeling jealousy? In the social sciences, jealousy can be defined as an emotional reaction to a perceived threat to a valued relationship. Is there a perceived threat to your valued relationship? Is there a valued relationship? Assuming there is a valued relationship as you say, “he’s hanging in, solid as a rock”, what/who do you perceive is threatening the relationship and why? Talk here…? Gracious I wish life were all about FUN!
Max,
I couldn’t agree more. The whole ‘casual’ thing just doesn’t work very well. Humans naturally progress in healthy relationships, and to not, if there is any consistent contact between two people, means something is obstructed in the situation so that intimacy is blocked.
The whole ‘casual’ isn’t enough to properly meet human needs, and actually is a distraction from true intimacy.
Intimacy grows, deepens and changes; it is not stagnate, as we are not meant to be stoic, static creatures.
Peanut, you’ve nailed it in a few short sentences. Thank you.
This subject always brings me back to the scene in the movie “Annie Hall” when Woody Allen and Diane Keaton are flying back to New York from a visit to LA, and they both start talking about how their relationship is not working anymore and they need to break up. Woody’s line is that “relationships are like sharks – they have to keep moving forward or they die. And what we have on our hands is a dead shark.”
By their very nature, casual, uncommitted relationships are pretty much dead sharks in the water from the beginning. Why bother? All you get is a big, stinky weight on your line, dragging you down with it.
Even non-sexual friendships require commitment, care, respect, trust and love, and a desire to grow together through shared life experiences, confidences, conversations, etc.
Silverbee
Lol! Thats it exactly.
If you’re not interested in them why bother. And if you are interested, and they aren’t, then you will get hurt. Either way, it’s a waste of your time.
I’ve had a few long term dead sharks on my line over the years, although they might have looked to a casual observer like live ones.. spending a lot of time together, going holidays, visiting each others families, even short periods of living together. But yet both of us knowing that it was really dead in the water, but too lazy to cut the line and start fishing again.
(Okay I think I have pushed the metaphor far enough!)
Hi Yoghurt!
I noticed you were quitting smoking and I just wanted to commiserate with you. My last gf, (and basically all of them smoked like a chimney). I always felt bad about myself for smoking like you and found myself with partners that reinforced the habit.
I can say in the aftermath of my ‘devastation’ I haven’t had a cigarette in 175 days which is the longest I’ve gone since I started 20 years ago. Its all part of the new, more loving me, and I am so happy that I slogged through the hard months to get to this point.
Good luck to you! Its the best thing I EVER did and making the commitment totally changed me as a person.
Get it!
“Its OK to reject a lovely guy”. Nice.
Seems to be a recurring theme. Obsess over all the selfish rats out there, pour your heart out on websites, then when actually encountering any sincere or honest men, reject them instantly.
You got to laff, really, the hypocrisy of the human condition. And I’m not just talking about women and their attraction for bad boys. Men are the same- they chase after women who are absolutely no good for them, while ignoring those who are genuine and available.
Thanks for your very insightful writing Natalie. Its also very funny at times!
Tim, I think that statement is more to the effect of ‘just because he’s a nice/lovely guy, you are not obligated to have a relationship with them’. It’s ok to not be attracted to a ‘nice’ guy, keep looking and find a ‘nice/lovely’ guy you ARE attracted to. Otherwise, we’ll risk wind up an AC to that ‘nice/lovely’ guy by stringing them along without having ‘feelings’ for them or pretending to in hopes of developing feelings that may or may not occur.
Though, I do see your point, as we are here because we wound up with and got attached to ‘bad boys’.
Yes we are contradictory, we are human, and we are on a journey to figuring all this out within ourselves.
Yeah….I get it, Tim. As a woman who is genuine and available, I’m ignored for women who cheat and lie and manipulate to get and keep a man. I’ve shown kindness (for the most part) and respect even to the ACs I’ve cut contact with in the past. I am nice, but not flirtatious, with decent men who, for whatever reason (and NOT because they are decent, available guys) I’m not attracted to, so as not to give them any inkling that I’m interested in more. So as not to lead them on, because I NEVER want to treat men in the same cruel way that some men in the past have treated me.
So yeah, I hear you.
As a matter of fact, Tim, I’m reminded that my most recent ex used to say to me all the time that I could get away with things and get free stuff, because I’m attractive. My honest response was always, “No, I’d never do that. I’m just not that way.” It’s almost like he expected, maybe even WANTED, a woman to use others. It baffles me, because I never treated him with anything but genuine love, kindness, and respect, even when I politely but firmly cut contact with him after I told him why. Then he started dating a woman who manipulated him every which way but Sunday. Sheesh. Can’t win. I’m still going to be my good self, even if it means I’ll be alone.
if you are a “nice guy” Tim, please stay that way despite the penchant for emotionally unavailable to go for, well, the unavailable.you don’t wanna join this crazy kool-aid party. the WORST assclown/assclownettes are the vengeful, bitter ex-”nice people” sick of coming second best. they are the absolute worse.you gotta stick to your character guns for your own damn yourself and don’t be bitter about being a decent human being.
Tim, I´d love to meet a nice guy for a change. The only guys I seem to attract are the ones that are in love with themselves.
Lilia,
Word.
Hey Tim, I hope you’ll check back in. I understand the stereotype of the “nice guy finishes last” but that isn’t what I meant. Trust me, I’m a former FBG who would beat feet across the nice guy offering a loaf to get the crumbs of the AC in the corner. That’s not what I’m doing now. The nice guys had some things I couldn’t do. And, I get to make the decision. And I did not want to send contradictory messages by continuing. Beat me up for that. It is still going to be my decision. I want a committed relationship based on trust, respect, and honesty. I didn’t see that happening. That’s all. Nice, mean, AC, EUM or whatever. Just a no go from my perspective and I get to make that decision because I have choices! The others said it much more nicely. I’m saying it a bit more snarkly. I get prickly when a guy decides that I should be interested in him because he is nice, attractive, unattractive, powerful, lacks power, or is simply interested and nice and therefore I should be interested. It’s pretty patronizing.
There were some hygiene issues which the “nice” part couldn’t resolve. Period. At 50-something, I simply don’t want to engage with somebody who needs to learn basic hygiene even if they are nice! You can though. Let me know how it works out.
And there we have a great example of how to define a boundary. Yay Runner!
You are right on the money about how YOU get to decide. Nice guy doesn’t equal obligation. Wanting a guy who is clean isn’t superficial. It’s you knowing what values are important for you and making smart decisions about compatibility based on these values. Nice is wonderful, but it doesn’t trump values. I think it’s respectful to not string a guy along you know doesn’t work for.
Thank you Selkie. You summed it up, nice doesn’t trump values or equal an obligation. It’s almost like another form of crumbs, albeit nicer ones!
People are entitled to find out as they go along… I can’t see the problem with that… I’ve always found the people who come in with an upfront agenda of what they want, without taking the trouble to even get to know me, are all about them and their demands. i like to get to know someone before deciding what level of a relationship I /we want with each other, if any. This doesn’t stop you setting your own quality ground rules about how you expect to behave and be treated… eg. with respect and honesty and I don’t want to date someone who is attached or a chauvenist idiot etc.
Tim,
We cannot accurately make the assumption if someone is ‘honest’ or a ‘rat’ based on any casual encounter. It takes time to get to know someone.
Often times people are attracted to certain people via unconscious childhood wounds. It is not their fault, but certainly their responsibility to become aware and make better, wiser choices.
I have to agree Lawrence, and beautifully stated.
Lilly,
I hurt for you because I know how it feels to be used buy a charming, seductive man who uses bouts of ‘tenderness’ to bait you. All the ‘love’ he shows that can feel so good at the time is just like an ugly worm on a fishhook.
I’m so sorry, that’s all we are to these men, fish, to be reeled in and cast back out to sea with little to no thought on their part, or emotionally fried in their pan of greasy lies.
And I must say this: It is very likely he is having unprotected sex with other women, okay more than likely. Not only do these men not think of the emotional consequences of their actions and the havoc they wreak, they don’t think of the consequences of their physical actions either.
He could be riddled with STDs, even know it, give you every single one of them, and not give two shits. This man sounds very unempathetic to say the least.
We deserve to be treated better than fish. We are women. We are human beings for god sake.
Hugs
Peanut,
I think you’re right he didn’t see me as a human being at all. His complete lack of empathy has been so damaging. The worst part is that I’m sure he is completely aware of my feelings. He seems to take pleasure in causing me pain. For over a year now I’ve been desperately trying to get him to have some empathy for my lost baby. What a complete waste of time and emotion. It has left me physically and mentally damaged, but I’m pulling myself up from the floor. He recently left me stranded in a different state and although it’s still painful it was perhaps a blessing in disguise. It finally gave me the strength to pull the plug. 15 days (properly) NC today and here’s one fish that has finally wriggled free!
Lilly,
Good for you!
You’re right! “It was a [] blessing in disguise.”
Lilly,
There are some people who just plum don’t care and don’t care that they don’t care, and never will. It is not our fault nor our responsibility to change them.
I am so sorry you lost your baby, Lilly. It hurts so much. I know.
You were a mother and you lost your child. There are few pains in life greater than this. You can heal. Grieve the loss. Give yourself the time, care, and safety you need to
grieve your baby.
It’s been near a year since I initiated no contact with the ex. I have fallen off the wagon several times, but he is further from my mind each day. I feel myself being tied to him less and less.
We are going to make it upstream to better waters!
Also, I have read your posts, and your tone is that of such a lovely, mindful, and sweet human being.
You don’t deserve the pain this man has put you through. Step far away and don’t go back. There is better waiting through all the pain. Take care.
Runner, along the lines of Grace’s post I have a friend who internet dated for about 18 mths. She met a lot of dates, all tossers, she rejected for good reasons. Just as she was about to give up she met ‘Mr I-don’t-really-find-attractive-but-he-seems-like-a-nice-guy’. I asked more about him. He’d kept gently & respectfully asking her out, treating her WELL & there were NO red flags. I suggested she persist despite the lack of ‘fireworks’ & had a funny feeling he was in fact ‘the one’. I actually told her this & she was somewhat doubtful (no real attraction she said) but stayed open minded. Sure enough three years later & they are co-habitating & engaged to be married in the near future! Oh & btw, I finally got to see some photo’s of him & although these things are in the eye of the beholder he looks alright to me! Quite handsome in fact especially when you add the bonus factor that hey, he’s GENUINELY a ‘nice guy’. She too is ABSOLUTELY GLOWING in the photo’s with him & has fallen head over heels in LOVE! It was just a SLOW BURN that’s all which he EARNED by how he TREATED HER instead of the wow factor employed in the blitz & awe campaign of an AC. Just thought I’d share that with you. All the best. T
Euw. Didn’t read down far enough Runner. Sorry about that. I can confirm my friend’s Mr Nice Guy although not a snappy latest fashion type (ugh, BOUND to be an AC, or gay, lol), DID show up on dates for her with all the hygiene boxes ticked. Don’t worry. I checked! LOL
Yeah, I’m not looking for “snappy”, just kinda groomed and clean would be good. Great to hear about your friend. I’m also not chasing a feeling and I knew that there was no chance.
Magnolia, yr giving yrself a bad case of analysis paralysis. Yr also being far too hard on yrself re the venting issue. People have a psychological NEED to just vent sometimes. All that talking about what is stressing you out, creates a release off yr brain’s pressure cooker. In fact this can be much better than just ruminating endlessly to yourself. A true friend will permit us to vent at times when needed. This is not about dumping our toxic shit on peeps. It’s a 2-way exchange in any give & take r.ship.
Here’s the thing though. This work colleague is NOT yr friend. It was ok to vent but I’d steer clear of any further non work related meetings with this guy ie lunch etc. Inviting himself to dinner at yrs shows he has poor boundaries & I suspect ulterior motives. Don’t be surprised if he’s lining you up as an OW. He’s married. He’s also a dropkick. Conduct yr work business with him but otherwise steer clear.
Also it makes sense to stay where work you at least like is available even if it’s not a fabulous town. You need stick with sorting yr career out so you can really fly even if this means at first doing something at a lesser level than u perhaps hoped for. Otherwise I’m sorry u missed out on the post doc opportunity. Don’t give up though, keep believing in yrself & all the hard work you have done to get to where you are today which proves how very capable you are & know that there will be other opportunities which will arise, in time.
Finally, when yr a little less stressed out, if I was in yr position, I’d consider taking up a hobby so BR isn’t yr only outlet. I’m just waiting to get a medical all clear (at least 6 mths or more away yet, MAYBE if I am lucky) but have two waiting ready to go (music & roller derby). I’ve already been to a couple of casual derby sessions a while back & the other women there were really friendly & welcoming. Life feels different when you have an oulet, especially one that brings you into healthy social contact with others. And who knows, maybe yr town will seem like a more happiness inspiring place to be then too?!
Hang in there Magnolia! This too shall pass & I see a very bright future ahead for you!
Oh Dear. Lisa. I see a lot of how I used to be in yr post. I don’t mean to be the bearer of bad news but here’s a heads up. You can’t have it all AT THE SAME TIME. The career, striving for financial independence, breaking into a hard to crack industry & fighting yr way to rise to the top of it AND a loving committed r.ship. Nope. If yr dead serious about yr goals, & I suspect you are, at some point you will have to CHOOSE what to ‘have\go after’ & WHEN. Feminism sold women a LIE which was we could have it ALL. Don’t believe the lie Lisa. It will rob you of yr fertility before you know it & leave you one day looking back & thinking, hell, I sacrificed LOVE for a CAREER?!! Was I insane??!! You can STILL do much of what you want but THINK & CHOOSE VERY CAREFULLY what that actually is & more than this, think of what you NEED (the answer to which will be different for ea person).
Oh I am laughing! A steam cleaning!
I’ve got to ge my carpet cleaned and so the steam cleaning seemed like an appropriate analogy.
I’ve really been thinking more abt yr post Lisa. I forgot to add, things also depend on if you already have or want (more) kids, as this changes yr workload. I think women now face a generational difference less evident, in the main, in bygone era’s. Despite feminism, we CONTINUE to do the lion’s share of domestic work, including looking after kids & housework in most households, even where both parents work full time. I face a similar dilemna Lisa & I struggle with it. I’ve faced it (prior to getting ill) for a looong time. It led to the same loneliness you describe. Athough I did have a few r.ships, none were for too long & they didn’t pan out for other reasons. In hindsight, that loneliness was part of what made me vulnerable to advances from my now deceased ex AC when he showed up again after a 17 yr absence. Just be careful hey.
teach
Boyfriend cleaned my house for an hour at the weekend, and washes up when he comes over. We don’t live together. He was brought up to do chores.
My youngest brother splits the household stuff roughly equally with his wife though he works full time and his wife is part time. He just doesn’t want her slogging away at housework.
My brother in law does all the cooking though he works full time and my sister part time. They have three daughters and he did their hair when they were little, though he drew the line at fancy hairstyles.
My father did all the cooking.
I know that women often do most if not all of it, and it is a real problem. Men are often left reeling when their wives finally have enough and leave. But that are lots of men who are willing to share. I can’t imagine that my boyfriend would be happy with me cleaning around him while he plays video games. He’s not that kind of person.
If income allows it, I think it’s a good idea to get a cleaner.
I understand that it’s a realistic concern that we’ll end up being a man’s unpaid housekeeper and cook while holding down a paid job. It’s not something I would want. Thankfully, we don’t have to do it. Ideally, our partner helps relieve our burden, not increases it!
I do have hope Grace. Even in households where guys pitch in though statistically the research suggests women are STILL doing the lions share of domestic chores. Although they’re only stats & individ’s can be quite diff the general trend still concerns me.
I wont be doing this with my guy (if I can find one!) Mostly b.c I just wont have time!
I’m yet to decide exactly what I want in a guy though so not ready to date (health & $ issues aside)
I’ve been thinking of this re my career ambitions. For example, would I be willing to change these for the sake of a.r.ship? I don’t know yet. I can see where it would make sense to (I have a secret ambition to study medicine. Few know about it except an adopted sis I haven’t seen since I was 2 yrs old, my outreack wrker & one friend).
I’d be mid 40′s before I even START. I may have to move to a rural area to get in via special admission & then practice in remote areas for some yrs upon graduating (which in turn.may impact my ability to get into my preferred areas of specialisation).
This could radically impact any r.ship. My life in terms of time & location would be spoken for, maybe for as long as up to 12 years! Do I want to do that? It’s a big question to ask myself. Time will tell!
You give many of us hope though Grace. Thankyou for yr encouragement. x
Yes Lilly, THAT is EXACTLY what you signed up for. Insulting huh? Stay pissed off, cry, feel sad, numb, be like a crazy woman… cry some more… & when yr tears run out & yr eyeballs need a rest make yrself a cuppa & look forward to yr new future @ yr new uni! Yr doing great Lilly! Hang in there! BIG hugs. T xx
Teachable,
Insulting it certainly is. The expletives coming out of my mouth right now ……. well, the less said the better! I most definitely could be described as a crazy woman right now and it’s exactly as you describe, tears, anger, more tears and occasionally laughter! Week two at my new uni starts on Monday and so far I like it a lot. It’s nice to belong somewhere again. Your ambition to study medicine is fantastic and if anyone can make it happen you will. Thanks for the support T and big hugs right back.
Grace and all… I worked with an elderly, soft spoken, gentleman who said he always helped do housework when he got home from work. He said she’d been working hard all day taking care of kids and the house and she didn’t get to sit down and watch TV why would he??! The point being, they worked together, had a common agenda, the family, the home, and taking care of each other… which is REALLY not abnormal, just maybe in our worlds? I didn’t see that growing up, my family has taken out the trash maybe once (?) and rarely even assists with carrying groceries and will carry one suitcase while my mother hauls around 5, and definitely kept score and
picked men who did the same, but have met MANY MANY couples who balance chores and childcare etc with ease.
Oh dear… New phone. My dad was worthless a far as chores went and of course my mother was a complainer to us about him and didn’t want to rock the boat and and walked on eggshells and all the other BS but ultimately stayed with him. I therefore kept score and picked men who played the same game. Or played the role of my parents. Never just “being” or participating in a healthy give and take relationship. But they do exist.
Lo J.
Yes! Many do exist, just not the creeps we have selected!
LOL @ Lilly. I was wondering if the unhinged manaical crazies had hit yet. Glad to hear they have! And complete with a plethora of expletetives? From our lovely ladylike Lilly (giggles)? I’m LOVIN hearin that, cause it means yr pissed (meaning angry), damned pissed, & THAT’S not only totally appropriate but a big sign yr own yr well on yr way to digging that awful man out of yr heart FOR GOOD! Teach is very happy with how the star of team Steel Magnolia is progressing! Carry on! And great to hear yr enjoying yr new uni too! Perfect!
PS I really am quite serious about this studying medicine idea. I first wanted to do it over a decade ago but couldnt as I needed to pay a mortgage off to secure housing for my son & I first. People who REALLY know me (& few do) wont be surprised. Most though will think, huh, I’m sure thpugh. I feel quite strange even talking abt it. Kind of like a little kid standing in rags, with holes in her shoes, who lives in a slum with no money to pay for her education, who when asked what she wants to be when she grows up, innocently looks up & says, ‘a prime minister’. As if the gap between where I came from & where I want to go is THAT big. It’s not of course, & being a Dr would be no where near as hard as being a Prime Minister, but I feel a bit like I was once a bit like that sort of child. I’m not now though. And why SHOULDN’T I become a Dr? At least if I can never address the topic of this post b.c I can never trust a man enough, or mayb if the right one never comes along, I will spend the rest of my life in pursuit of a worthy profession helping ppl & hopefully earn enough $ just in the nick of time b4 my retirement, not to be in poverty!
My question is, are there guys out there who are ok with being in a committed r.ship with a woman who aspires to build a better life through a career change & who will tolerate a woman studying to achieve that? If not, ppl like myself are left feeling we cannot date, as casual is not an option.
This would take one special guy I imagine b.c I will be too busy studying to cook or clean after anyone (apart from the basics, I’m a clean, neat & tidy freak by nature anyway, lol). If I DO go after my medicine ambition neither would I have any interest in diverting time to raising someone else’s kids b.c I just will not have time for that (I would be willing to compromise on this & consider someone who had say one child, so long as the child was old enough to look after themselves on a practical level ie an older teenager, maybe 17 yo plus).
I’m 43 now. It will be another couple of years before I can hope to get into medicine. In the interim I have to finish my undergrad degree (medicine would be post grad), some other single qualifying subjects as well as recover my health & reorganise my finances (which may include selling the house to relocate to a rural area to help me qualify to get into medicine & pay for my tuition).
I don’t want to choose a career over a r.ship, as such, as I know that would be foolhardy, but is there a chance that someone out there could want someone like me, or would they all think no, she’s too selfish? Note, my motive for wanting to study medicine is that it is equal in years of study to the level I aspire to academically anyway, & for the area of work I wish to work in (which is a healing/health profession), it is the best option which will enable me to provide patients with the best outcomes & types of treatment I want to be able to provide. I also really need to work for myself so I am no longer at risk of harm through workplace bullying. Drs are the top of the tree in health service provision so I figure why not? It’s not a career I’d be choosing ‘for the money’. I’d be entering it too late in life to make any huge difference in that area, once I take into consideration loss of income due to retraining & fees to study.
So, how to date & get ALL that accross? It feels like a big ask of anyone…
Usually I’ve been on the receiving end of the not as emotionally available as I am spectrum. But recently I was in the role of not wanting a committed relationship. I had a friend and I stated clearly from the outset my intentions of having something casual and fun but not headed anywhere in particular. In my world casual doesn’t mean to treat people poorly or necessarily sleep around. In fact I’m of the mind that sex between people means you should treat someone better. And over the years I’ve had on occasion a few friendships that ended up including sex and we are closer for it. But sometimes it blows up on you.
My life is in some upheaval with job loss some financial difficultly and a major move in the works. And I wanted to be stable myself before venturing into another major relationship. Now I care about my friend and enjoy her company. But it didn’t matter because it ended up not being mutual. She really couldn’t handle it well. I wasn’t mean, I stayed on the phone with her for hours processing ‘us’. I hated to be THAT person who gently said I care about you, I like being with you but there isn’t an US, us. There is just our friendship which now has included sex.
This is a terrifically hard balance to strike. It’s not impossible but you are right it has to work for both people or one person spins their wheels hoping and suffering. I ended it because it was obviously to hard on her and her behaviour started to get a bit scary.
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