If you’ve ever been with someone who blows hot and cold by one day professing their love for you and talking about the future to the next day getting cold feet and saying “I don’t want to hurt you” or even ‘going dark’, you’ll know that being on the end of someone’s indecision isn’t good for your soul or your self-esteem.
A friend was excited when her boyfriend said that he was taking her away and that he was going to buy “a ring” all without any prompting from her. On the day that they were due to fly off, he showed up weeping and saying “I can’t do this”. Somehow she forgave him and then he flipped and flapped for another few years until she ran out of patience and sympathy and made up his mind for him by removing herself out of the equation.
When someone is indecisive about being with you, it’s not sexy or acceptable.
Being vulnerable is something that the great majority of people have some degree of fear about but it’s a necessity for something as basic as feeling our own feelings and taking in reality as well as being a fundamental component of our relationships. None or limited vulnerability equals intimacy issues equals commitment issues equals balance, progression and consistency issues equals you dealing with someone who isn’t available for an available relationship.
They’re on the fence instead of being in the relationship with both feet firmly planted in.
Indecisive people have commitment issues. They appear to make decisions and then afterwards start to panic and backtrack to relieve their fears. Then when they feel calm again based on the change in decision, they then worry if they made the wrong decision. And round and round they go.
You can end up falling into the trap of trying to help them make up their minds and even attempting to allay their fears and in the meantime, you end up forgetting your own needs and cross into over-empathising instead of recognising what indecision means in the bigger picture. You can also end up internalising their anxiety. Maybe I should I have doubts too?
Indecision is actually a decision in itself and to be on the receiving end of it can be torture. Someone who truly cares for you and is empathetic will recognise that it’s not acceptable and will not continue the flip-flapping or take advantage of your own decisiveness about them.
When someone then starts telling you that they’re being indecisive because they don’t want to hurt you, it raises the question of which crystal ball they’re using? It’s more like self-knowledge and experience. They may be afraid of being honest and assertive or they just lack the self-knowledge to understand their own needs which would in turn help them make a decision that reflected not only who they are but also had some respect and consideration for you. If they don’t understand their own needs or feelings, they’re certainly not going to be able to empathise either. They tend to be reactive and will reel you in on a whim and then flush you back out of their hot attention with a bump back to earth.
It’s not ‘bad’ to have a wobble or to be a little afraid of stepping forward. I think it comes with the territory with relationships. The difference though between the person who’s indecisive and the person who has both feet in is that the latter knows that vulnerability is needed and weighs evidence against their fears and proceeds based on the feedback.
Both of you may be afraid but you’re taking the leap of faith together.
The person that’s indecisive keeps wobbling and after a while, you can end up being uneasy because you’re trained and attuned to expect a wobble. You end up feeling distrusted. You end up feeling like you’ve got to campaign for you and make them feel better about the last person that they were with. It’s not your job to help someone get over their previous relationships and trauma. You can be empathetic and sympathetic but if these issues are getting in the way of them being able to differentiate between past and present and forge a mutual relationship with you and they’re not making it a priority to resolve the issue, you have to step away.
The biggest problem with this whole indecision malarkey is this expectation whether it’s communicated directly or not, that it’s you that’s got to do something to relieve that indecision when actually, the indecision is about them, even if they try to put it on you. The next biggest problem is this inherent assumption by them that you’re supposed to be ‘OK’ with this indecision (like a show of your commitment to their uncommitted selves) and if you respect what they’re saying and don’t want to participate, you’re ‘pressuring’ them. NO, you’re respecting what they’ve said instead of letting them have it both ways.
This is how so many people get downgraded to casual. “OK I’ll let you test drive me in casual mode until you’re over your wobble.”
Relationships require a leap of faith. You don’t want to be taking that leap and then being dragged back or left hanging and pleading for the other person to join you. It takes the joy and the fun out of the relationship and after a while, it’ll begin to erode at your sense of self because it’s human nature to wonder what you’ve ‘done’ and that’s just not fair.
I’ve learned this the hard way that if you’re faced with someone who’s indecisive about you or the possibility of a relationship, let them make up their minds on their own time, not yours.
Don’t see it as a challenge and an opportunity for validation – see it as great big red warning that whatever it is that you thought you both have had going on, they aren’t on the same page as you and have their own issues. If you blame you for their indecision, you’ll miss some very vital feedback about this person and your relationship. If they come back, they return decided and if they then start to passive aggressively roll it back after a time or flake out again, cut ‘em loose.
Ultimately there’s something so not right about you being decided on a person and a relationship that the other party isn’t. You think you’re copilotting when the other person is trying to make an emergency exit. If they’re on the fence and you’re waiting on them, you get put on the fence too. In the end, you’ll have to do for the both of you what they clearly can’t do – make the decision that puts an end to all of this indecision and leaves you with your sense of self intact as well as being available for an available relationship with someone who isn’t resisting you with their indecision.
Your thoughts?
About the Author:
Natalie Lue is the founder and writer of Baggage Reclaim and author of the books Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl, The Dreamer and the Fantasy Relationship and more. Learn more about her here and you can also follow her on Facebook and Twitter - @baggagereclaim .
Natalie (NML) – who has written 1082 posts on Baggage Reclaim by Natalie Lue.
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I just don’t know how are you doing it…this is ME – right NOW – in THIS moment !!! You are talking to me !!! Thank you, Nathalie – so many answers to all my tormenting questions.
I did all the mistakes, by the book : ignoring red flags, amber alerts, my gut feeling, allowing to be an option, fed with crumbs,romantic home cooked suppers…I won’t continue…you guys know very well what I’m talking about… I’m in NC for one month and I feel strong and empowered :thank you Nathalie, from the bottom of my heart, THANK YOU
“I’ve learned this the hard way that if you’re faced with someone who is indecisive about you or the possibility of a relationship, let them make up their minds on their own time, not yours. Don’t see it as a challenge and an opportunity for validation.”
Wow, I wish I knew this years ago. I wasted four years on a guy who couldn’t decide if he wanted to be with me or not. I should have left him to his devices while I went out with guys who wanted to be with me. It makes me really sad that I wasted all that time waiting for him while he said he needed to think about it and ended up having three other girlfriends in tow in various places.
So tired of these middle aged men that can’t make a decision. Of course, no decision IS really a decision–they are rejecting you in a cowardly way. The next woman will get the same treatment, the ride may last a bit longer, but it’s sure to end the same way. Love your take on it, Natalie. So right you are, make the decision for them and move on with your wonderful life. It is such a turnoff to deal with men who never know what they want, esp. on the other side of 45! Take back your precious time and extract yourself asap, someone better awaits!
I totally agree with wise ol owl about the 45+ range, it’s like they’ve hit boyhood again, “I dont know what I want” is usually the answer and leave us dangling while going hot and cold all the while. Even when we ask for a direct answer and it’s a basic yes or no, they still cant deal with it. It’s unfair. Takes too much time out of our lives for someone who is planted firmly and does love them and does know what they want. Time, indecision, I’d like to say Im committed to listening and adherring to all those red flags and ambers and gut feelings for the next endeavour I may come across, but Im human unlike some of the men I’ve dated. Agreed, let them waste their time and someone elses, of which there always is when the void we create upon leaving the conundrum has to be filled. God forbid they deal with their own feelings, that’s a taboo word.
Wise and Maz, I agree totally. These mid-life guys who say “I don’t know what I want”, actually mean “I know exactly what I want but I’m not going to tell you because I’m devastated, disappointed and catatonic with disbelief that I’m too old for it.* I can’t believe I have to socialise with people your age now. What the hell happened to my life? What did I do to deserve this? WHY ME?” etc ad nauseum.
Nothing like making up a man-child’s mind for him like flushing him away.
*’It’ being one or more of the following: a career as a professional sports player; a career as a professional sports coach; a career as head of a global record label; a career; a girlfriend who isn’t likewise in middle age; a girlfriend who hasn’t been married or in a serious long-termer before; a girlfriend who hasn’t already had children; a girlfriend who’s a hot virgin escapee from the local convent whose 18th birthday was yesterday and until meeting me has never laid eyes on a man before…
Now, that made me giggle. True, true and true again
I think I will memorize it and say it at the bar tonight when I meet one of the 50 yr old men that think “I’m too cool for any girl 35 plus”. Gosh, it is heartbreaking, they are every where (online, work, the bar) and they think the same, & their numbers are legion! You could meet five a week!! Evan Mark Katz should write about this in his advice column, and tell us where on earth to buy the serious delusion kool-aid these guys are drinking.
Griz
“a girlfriend who’s a hot virgin escapee from the local convent whose 18th birthday was yesterday and until meeting me has never laid eyes on a man before…”
that was fantastic! I will add to that
” ‘it’ being…playing mindgames with women who can’t understand me and who I can deceive, dating women who have unabashed admiration for everything I do,even if, in fact, I have done very little, being able to explain my divorce to someone who won’t question that it was all my ex’s fault, having the possibility of not being held accountable for my actions because now I look immature for it, rather that just a “bad boy”, having a girlfriend who is 25 and who just wants me for my body, not my money. Okay I am a bit pissy but it is true….. and finally… having a woman who is my age and better kept up than me, and who has more going on than me rejecting me because I just have nothing to offer and my attitude towards her was that she should be lucky that I asked her out, because I really could date someone 25…
Grizelda,
that is sooo funny and true. My last couple of guys belonged to the “it” brigade…would check off most items on your list. It must be so great for them to think they are so special and live on that lovely cloud of delusion, bless them.It`s even greater to have them flushed. I have the misfortune to work with one of them and have been subject of his expressions of attention after five years- translate trying to press reset button. It`s hillarious watching him do that but it does make me gag.There were apparently no virgins around…..
Hilarious! Besides, I’m convinced those guys don’t suddenly become EU once they turn 45 (or 55 or 65 or whatever). They’ve always been that way. I can already picture some toxic guys I met at 25 behave EXACTLY like that 20 years later. It’s somewhat comforting.
Ellyb, I actually met the EUM I had a non-relationship with when we were both 25 and in hindsight he must´ve always been EU.
He never took any initiative to pursue women, the only ones he got (briefly) involved with were the ones who threw themselves at his feet. He did blow hot with the ones he couldn´t have – like myself (I was engaged at the time and didn´t take his compliments and lamb-like looks of adoration very seriously). His apparent devotion for me continued until I was available 15 years later -at that exact moment the hot-cold treatment, ff and complete bs began.
I don´t think it´s an age thing. These guys were weird from the onset.
Classic Grizelda. Really made me laugh. Mine still listened exclusively to the music from his teen years and showed me photos of himself aged 19, telling me how great he looked then (didn’t we all?) Poor mite “didn’t know what he wanted.” but of course you are right…catatonic with disblelief just about sums it up! Thanks!
I don’t know who posted about the “hotness delusion syndrome” so I’m responding to you Grizelda since it was so funny and in keeping with my comment…I googled the above phrase and about had to crack open some Patron this morning.
Ah-ha! So this is one of the myriad of craptastic attitudes I’ve been running into. (Disclaimer: I live in LA so I think this may be worse than in other areas).
I usually date 5-10 yrs older since younger men seem so clueless and want or need a mother. I did the young guy once and it was a total turnoff. He even admitted that “I needed to train him.” No thanks!
So, as I age I’ve been dating the 40-48 lot and have been shocked by the level of immaturity and narcissism. These weren’t your classic “Mid-life crisis” men either, at least not the stereotype driving a flashy car with a hot bimbo beside them. They seemed down-to-earth and together but they acted like they were doing me the favor being with them. And they weren’t even remotely hot…marginally attractive but certainly not Adonis.
And they believe it! I thought they were just managing me down (maybe they were) but after reading about this new syndrome, I have to wonder.
So now what am I supposed to do? Date men my age exclusively between 35-40? Then what? When he reaches mid-40′s is he going to suffer this same weird affliction of delusion and cheat or leave me for another woman because he thinks he can upgrade even though he should feel lucky to have me (or whoever).
I know, I know…looking too far ahead but now I’m just throwing my hands up in the air.
Almost all the men I was with beyond a date or two were delusional about their looks, what they had to offer and were completely willing to overlook the obvious standing right in front of them. What the eff has happened to all these men??
Sad, isn’t it? And society coddles these menopausal men, strokes their little heads, tells them how lovely and manly and hot they are, and how sexy they look on their new kawasaki racing motorbike.* While, lest we forget, their heartbroken wives, who have not once been invited to ride on the back of the mean machine (because carrying his ‘old pair of slippers’ pillion would just be embarrassing for him wouldn’t it?), shut themselves in the bathroom regularly for a good long cry, a heavy session of self-criticism and blame, and a good look in the mirror at what a few bouts of full-blown surgery on their faces and bodies might do to stop their husbands hurting them so much every day.
Yes we could say this particularly common style of man is a poor indecisive fella who just doesn’t know what he wants but who needs to behave like this — yeah, needs to behave like this. We could also say that Wall Street bankers are a misunderstood bunch of kindly people who somehow got waylaid along their intended route of total global economic equality for all.
(*Thinking. Do they always take a sudden liking to motorbikes because it requires them to wear helmets — so that all those hot babes walking around out there obviously in need of men twice their age can’t immediately see how old they are, I wonder?)
You always make me laugh. I’m not sure if you’re in the UK, Grizelda, but I’m sure you’ve heard about the Petraeus scandal? It’s all so demoralizing. President Obama was giving a press conference today and when asked about the general and his affair, I yelled at the TV and said, “Tell ‘em that he’s just succumbed to the “Hotness Delusion Syndrome.” Now that would’ve been hysterical!!
This is so incredibly refreshing! I’m in a happy, committed relationship right now but I remember my days dealing with indecision and I will NEVER tolerate it again. Men who engage in indecision disguise it as innocent doubt when really it’s a time-buying way to keep their options open. This also shows why Natalie’s 3 don’t are so important. Don’t have sexual contact, don’t let more than a month pass, and don’t become emotionally involved in any way (did I get those right?) until you know if they are available. A month should be enough time to sense indecision and weed them out with very little attachment or investment from your end. Flipping and Flapping? There’s the door! Indecision is a decision in and of itself. It’s a “nope, not on MY time!”
Beth,
“Men who engage in indecision disguise it as innocent doubt when really it’s a time-buying way to keep their options open.”
This is so true! It was so easy for him to keep me hanging around, waiting for him to “decide”, by claiming to want to be with me, but not knowing how to “make it happen”. And he was one of those 45+ers, too. I had no right to want him, anyway, as he had already “decided” when he got married. My big mistake!
Congratulations on your happy, committed relationship
Beth,
great to hear you are in a happy relationship
I have two major bottom lines : trust yourself and don`t let anyone treat you as an option.
I just wanted to add that I just read this link from your post http://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/a-tale-of-two-commitment-resistant-birds-are-you-hiding-your-commitment-fears-behind-someone-elses-more-obvious-commitment-issues/
and I had another revelation. You pinpointed MY problem. You have a gift.
and he’s 45+…you guys might be onto something here…
My AC’s sitting on the fence was a little different. The amber alerts, the red flags, were all there, but I pushed them aside and listening the the flapping of the gums, instead of believing my own eyes and trusting my gut. When I finally could no longer ignore the bells and whistles going off in my head, I ended the relationship ( one of many endings) He at that time gave me a ring, and wanted to get married, immediately. That was just too suspicious to me. ( turned out he was no longer covered under his ex-wife’s insurance) So I said let’s plan 6 months out. Well that was too much for AC. There was no talking about the fact that I had 6 months left on my lease, he said he was going to shut down his business, 6 months ago and hadn’t, which I saw as probably having to support because it was failing. So when I said let’s sit down and talk out the financial details, I heard, I don’t love him, I didn’t trust him, I thought I was better than him, i have no right to the details of his financials. It’s I’ll commit as long as it’s on my terms. Well that is not a relationship to me. So no wedding, no relationship, and no contact. It’s getting easier every day.
Oh my God,
The financial issues and the EU man!
Nat, you need to write something about it.
There is also financial flip flapping – one day they spend a fortune on you and lavish you with dinners and presents, the next day, you find yourself at Mc Donald’s or at their house “hanging out” = watching a DVD and drinking cheap wine.
Beware of these so-called self-employed men who are doing well financially when you meet them, with all the trappings of success, nice car, nice clothes, super ( fake) self-confidence. They end up being technically unemployed and often broke and parasitic.
They are with money the way they are with feelings.
Rave — Thank you for pointing this out…it seems like we dance away from the financial aspects of EUM’s. Maybe I’ve just been incredibly unlucky, but the vast majority of my EUM’s & AC’s were all cheap to either galling degrees or just very thoughtless. They prey on successful women and are all too happy to have her foot the bill.
Emerldeyez, that is classic. Love the “hey, look, what’s that over there?!” approach to discussing important matters before making important life decisions.
You’re right in its seriousness. One of my best friends was married just 18 months before her husband ‘went on a course’ (actually went away on holiday with another woman), came home and immediately announced he was leaving her for said woman. My friend was all of 24 years old at the time. In sorting out their tangled financial matters, she was hit by a tsunami of charged-up credit cards he’d taken out that she didn’t know existed, loans he’d taken out, expenses of his… and in court it was ruled that they were both equally 50/50 responsible for, er, ‘their’ debts. The long and short of it was that she indirectly footed the bill for the little love-nest holiday her husband took with his other woman and much, much more. How’s that for injustice. (As an aside, karma struck back. Within a year after he walked out and set up home with his replacement woman, he was struck down with prostate cancer. He survived it.)
Good for you, Emerldeyez. That’s coming from a strong place and ‘woman’ing-up!’
Exactly and all those indecisive people become hurt when I decide to no longer have them around. The audacity of it all. Asking them where they would like it to go so that I have an idea about where it’s going even if it’s just ‘let’s take our time and get to know each other’ is a whole lot better than ‘what do you want it to be’ or ‘you did this so I take back my words of marriage’ or ‘you could my partner or my friend or my ____ ( insert variation of the types of realtionships there are)’. It’s frustrating but at the same time gives me the answer I need without the drama or the challenge. They don’t know what they want so I dont want them. Nothing long about it. I’ve come to realise that asking someone what they want from me and they don’t have a clue lets me know that they haven’t thought about it enough and expect a shag. They may get it but they won’t get my respect or another session. Sounds harsh maybe but they want to use and will get used accordingly.
Shay,
Loved your post, especially this:
“They don’t know what they want so I dont want them.”
Perfect! I’m taking this one-sentence summary of Natalie’s post to heart, Thanks!
I liked the “will get used accordingly”… may apply that myself.
The first comment was to Learner.
Lila… hahaha
I found it to be true. They want to use me on the flip flapping sly so why not use them and end it on my terms?! If they just want to have sex then just say it outright so there’s no confusion. Not this undercover scheming on my goods. And these are the same people who want to be mad. I just don’t get it.
Thank you and it’s ok.
I’ve come to realise that if you don’t put up with the flip flapping and tell them to step then they’ll just be there messing you around. Too many people think I’m nice and that I’ll just have them there but I won’t. Or that I’ll come back and it will all be the same again. It won’t. Cut them off and move on to the next. My self respect, pride, humility and dignity are worth more than that.
“If they come back, they return decided and if they then start to passive aggressively roll it back after a time or flake out again, cut ‘em loose.”
This is me, now. Dude and I dated last year for about 4 months, and when things started to get good, he flaked and we broke up for another 4 months. He was very clear in that time that he cared for me but wasn’t ready for a serious relationship (this was about 1 year post-divorce for him). We were ‘friends’ during the breakup but it was hard for both of us– lots of crying, him saying he just wasn’t sure, wasn’t ready.
Then, out of nowhere, he decided. He was ready. He was in it. And really, he was– for 7 months. Things once again were great, but this time around we were very committed and into each other. He was at times distant, but I took that as him just being busy at work. We do the same job, pre-tenure university professors, and it is a TON of work. I also have a 2 1/2 year old from my previous marriage, so I spend half my week caring for him. Dude and I saw each other only about twice a week, but that was what I preferred, and it was consistent and stable.
Then, two weeks ago, out of nowhere, BAM. Over. He suddenly doesn’t want to be with someone with a child because he thinks he’d be a bad father figure (btw, he has no desire for his own children, and I don’t want more, but he always said he was cool with my one). He suddenly says that he prefers working to doing social stuff (this I believe– he’s a work addict, much like me). He’s concerned that he might not get tenure and he’d have to move. Whatever, he wants it to be over.
Ok, so clearly this Dude is not right. Twice sabotaging a great relationship over fears of the future. Not talking about his concerns (like children, work-life balance) for months on end. Pulling away whenever things start to get more serious. Clearly, although he doesn’t talk about it, he’s got some indecision issues.
So why in the hell do I want to be with him? Why am I agonizing over our 5+ days of no contact? Why am I secretly wishing that he’ll change his mind again? It was so damn good with him, so healthy and balanced and great. It’s really hard for me to do much more than pity him, because he’s just such a nice guy who has yet to figure his shit out. Also, just to make it more frustrating, he’s a psychologist who studies, among other things, the dynamics of intimate relationships. Bahaha the irony…
Sarah,
This man sounds like a classic EUM with his flip flapping hot-and-cold indecision.
You said “It was so damn good with him, so healthy and balanced and great.” yet, the net effect of the relationship seems to leave you feeling hurt. Healthy relationships have a net positive effect.
I am no expert, but could you be missing the relationship you *thought* you had, or *wished* you had with him?
He is telling you what he doesn’t want – he doesn’t want to be a father. he doesn’t want to emerge from his workaholism to have a social life. He doesn’t want to be your life partner. I know it hurts like hell, but it sounds like he HAS decided. He is not good for you – you deserve a man who knows with all his heart that he wants you. Hugs xo
Well… it’s feeling that little sting of rejection. But you have to question, what kind of man is rejecting you. An assclown who’s unavailable. It’s not a reflection of who you are as a person. And I think once we take that element out of the equation… we instantly start to feel a little better, and stronger.
This “dude” has shown you before, he can’t ‘stick’ around… no matter how great things seem to be going, he blows cold eventually. How can you trust that? you can’t. So, question why you’d want someone you can’t even trust cause’ they don’t know what the hell they want. If he wasn’t ‘sure’ about you… he probably really won’t be sure about anyone until he is being authentic with himself. A lot of men, unfortunately, don’t look too deeply into any of these, like we do. They just go about their lives, move on with other women, and lather, rinse, repeat, lol.. Until maybe one day they get it somewhat ‘right’.
Let’s face it, we ALL have baggage that we carry, men do too. The thing is, we need to trust our insticts…we need to have a pretty damn good relationship with ourselves first, before we have one with anyone else. Or else, when things like this happen to us, it makes all the difference in how well we ‘cope’ with the situation at hand, the ‘assumed’ rejection.
It’s not about us. It’s only been 5 days NC, and this guy has really messed with you… so just keeping taking one day at a time, try to take the focus off of him by occupying your time and energy on good things, and with the people in your life who matter the most. It will take time, and committment on your part… to keep moving forward.
Sooo right
Ambiguity, hot/cold behavior means flush! Wish I’d known that three years ago.
My goodness this is so spot-on! This totally describes my previous relationship. All I can say is, I cut him loose, regained my self-respect, and have never felt better. It’s been 6 months so I have had a good amount of time to recover from all that assclownery and BS that I put up with. I know I will NEVER be in an unavailable relationship again, and coming back here reading the blog is a good reminder not to go there again, and how much I have learnt so thank you so much, Natalie!
Hey ladies, I am terribly sorry if I made anyone feel like I was looking down on them. That was not the point of my post about not wanting to be a BR woman; quite the opposite. It felt to me like there was a lot of man hating talk going on and I don’t want to hate men.
I have been a stripper, a prostitute, sexually molested, psychologically abused, and myriad other things that would give me good reason to hate men, and yet I don’t. I don’t ever want to. I think men’s masculinity and propensity for tenderness is magnificent and beautiful.
Thank you very much Natalie and everyone else for letting me air my grievance with ya all without judging me or beating me up. Your kindness will not go unnoticed. In fact, it made me cry tears of joy. I think my heart just expanded.
Oh! And thanks to whoever posted the quote from Women Who Run With the Wolves. I loved it.
Vulnerabilities we hate in others are often also the very things we hate in ourselves, Freya.
Hey Freya no offense taken, we are all in this together right;)?
This can be a hard lesson to apply, because you know that there may be good reasons for having reservations about the relationship, and there are no time limits written in stone for how long commitment or falling in love should take.
And yet, at some point, indecisiveness is in my opinion one of the clearest signs you can have that this relationship is not working for you. I think you reach that point when you see an obvious divide between how you and your partner feel about commitment – when you find yourself pleading with them to “get off the fence” and “take a leap of faith” (those later words, echoing Natalie, left my lips more than a few times), and when you feel the constant need to prove that you’re worthy of fence-departure.
At the end, when you finally can’t take any more of this ambivalence, you may hear, as I did: “A-ha! This proves I was right all along! We weren’t right for each other!”
Which is true. Things can never be right with someone who isn’t emotionally available and who demands that you fix that for them; and if you can’t fix it (which is surely near-impossible if not simply impossible), then that’s *your* fault, of course.
By holding back from full commitment, by not trusting, by demanding something akin to a religious sign that things will be perfect forever, you are actively sabotaging a relationship – and are creating a self-fulfilling prophecy that it won’t work out.
“By holding back from full commitment, by not trusting, by demanding something akin to a religious sign that things will be perfect forever, you are actively sabotaging a relationship – and are creating a self-fulfilling prophecy that it won’t work out.”
Well said and very very true. A relationship works purely when both people in it decide that they want to prioritise making it work.
I remember all those conversations along the lines of “I do want to be with you, but…”, “I don’t want to hurt you, but…”. I was always bemused, like “so be with me, then!”
Yeah, “but” is a special word, isn’t it? It cancels out whatever precedes it.
Lawrence
Yep, I was looking for a sign from God re my relationship, literally as we are both christians. then i realised God gave us our faculties for a reason. we are allowed to make decisions. i made the conscious decision to put aside my anxieties and fears, and commit to my relationship. It was scary but once I took the leap of faith we haven’t looked back. He leapt too.
It took two months of consistent dating and discovery to get to that stage. I thinks that’s appropriate timing. Slow but not a standstill.
You can’t hold a relationship indefinitely in the comfort zone.
That’s funny, Grace, because I said more than once: “It’s as though you’re looking for a sign from God that I’m the one for you!” And she actually never denied that.
I liked how you responded, and it’s heartwarming to hear that you took that plunge of faith.
Kendo: “That’s helpful – is the indecisiveness because of a vulnerability which we all have – and when its there needs to be taken in context of the relationship….I have been abused in relationships for such a long time I am genuinely very wary of ever trying again – especially as I’m ok on my own.”
I wanted to acknowledge, as you have, that being vulnerable and indecisive at points in our lives – particularly about something so important as committing to another person – is natural and understandable. I don’t blame people for being indecisive; and they may have very good reasons for holding back. But just as they’re looking out for their own interests, we have to look out for ours. And it’s rarely in our interests, in the long-term, to be with someone who just can’t make up their mind.
I too said ‘are you waiting to be hit by a bolt of lightening or for some sort of sign?’ more than once. The ex came back saying that he wanted to ‘talk’ about getting back together. It was what I had been wanting for a year. We talked and talked and agreed a whole range of things and then he sat on the fence for 3 months.
He told me that ‘I love you, I love being with you, I miss you when you went we don’t see each other, we click and I don’t think that I will ever click with anyone else the way we do, BUT I am not getting the overwhelming feeling that it is the right thing to do.’
And I, like an idiot then gave him even more time where he continued to flip flap and not choose me.
I talked to him about taking a leap of faith and that that he needs to decide to dip his toe back into the water. But he kept saying that we had already been swimming and it didn’t work out and that it was all so complicated and he was stuck.
More time went by and I eventually backed him into a corner where he said that he ‘wanted to be with me but didn’t really, really want to be with me’. It was a soul destroying experience and heartbreaking.
Nat’s line about coming back already decided really struck me.
At least I put myself out there and was vulnerable and said what I wanted …. a first for me as I used to be the unavailable one.
This is soooo me right now Nat! I always get strung along with that “I’m sorting my feelings out right now” and “I don’t want us to end up fighting” excuse and I’m sick of it. Thank you for this.
I’d love it if you can write more about the whole “I don’t want to hurt you” excuse that everyone keeps on dishing. I think I’m deluded into thinking that this EUM is actually sincere with this one. If there’s anyone who could drill that thought into my clueless brain, it’s you.
Jessica,
I believe Natalie has a post called something like “I don’t want to hurt you and other translations”. Try searching her site for it
I looked these up and there are several posts on this theme. All are absolutely brilliant!! Here’s the first one in the series: http://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/reader-question-what-does-i-cant-give-you-want-you-want-mean/
I second this. My problem has been that they’ll say they’ll give me what I want but shortly after start punishing me with passive aggression, or demanding so much from me for their benefit I can barely have enough left over to give to myself. They overwhelm. I’ve chalked it up to the fact that they genuinely did not want to step up so they said they would but their actions didn’t match. Sucks to believe otherwise even for a short time but they probably just didn’t want to lose the sex and companionship so they said whatever it took to keep me. Yuck!
My ex is back in my life and trying to slowly weave into my day-to-day…and this I needed so bad. Thanks Nat for remindin me that I am much better than that and have so much more going on!
Indecision is plain evil.
To me, at least.
I´ve come to think it is a form of being cowardly passive-aggressive because how hard is it to know if you want to be with someone or not? Hey, you either like someone or you don´t. I find I know pretty acurately what my feelings towards guys are, I can´t imagine not knowing. And when I don´t feel any attraction I do everything possible not to lead him on.
So I think that is why it has been so devastating to be on the receiving end of my exEUM´s indecision. Never again!
Thank you. This is why I ended our relationship. It seemed like I was being downgraded every year. So I simply asked how much was he committed to our relationship. He told me he did not know…..I suffered for a few more months, thinking he would eventually “know” if he still wanted our 4 years plus relationship. I finally had to walk and cut contact. I did not want to be with someone who couldn’t tell me they still wanted to be with me or not. It was a very difficult thing for me to do. Thank you for reminding me of this fact.
Natalie. I offered my throat to the married wolf with the red roses and the armor of steel who “didnt want to hurt me” but had such a hard time making a decision because he “felt like he had cement shoes on”. I am finally getting to the point where I can laugh about this more than cry about it.It feels SO good to be back in my own life. Thank you Nat and BR!
Good for you Learner. A cheating MM, and in your case, a double cheating MM, is the perfect example of a fence sitter. In my two year battle to convince him to get off the fence, I realized he had convinced me to join him in sitting on the fence. Ouch. It hurts sitting on the fence. I fell smack into the trap Natalie describes.
Good for you in making the decision and getting your own life back.
Cheers to you and to Natalie and BR.
Aww, thanks runnergirl,
I agree, that fence-sitting sure hurts and leave imprints in ones behind! Sometimes I feel like the biggest loser in OW-land, not knowing I was an “OW to the OW” all that time. Ignoring my values and my gut ached like nothing else ever could. So happy that you, and me, and many others here are now back in reality and back to living. Thanks for your continued encouragement.
Cheers to you, too, runner!
Yet again, ANOTHER post delivered on time. Two words beautiful Natalie…YOU ROCK! Thankyou…Ok, that’s three!! LOL! xx
Natalie, this is a best post ever, I love it! Thank you:)
You are not only talking about my previous ACs, but you also talking about me…I am EU woman, and I do not know how to be available myself:( Your words of wisdom yet again: “Indecisive people have commitment issues. They appear to make decisions and then afterwards start to panic and backtrack to relieve their fears”…Regarding AC, they used to call me “my future wife”, but I NEVER really believed them, actions speak louder than words and I always remember that, thanks to BR!!!
But for now I am concerned about myself, even I want to have a committed relationship, I am scared and panicking, maybe I just used to be to be blown hot/cold that I cant imagine any other ways???
“Indecisive people have commitment issues. They appear to make decisions and then afterwards start to panic and backtrack to relieve their fears. Then when they feel calm again based on the change in decision, they then worry if they made the wrong decision. And round and round they go.”
Omg you’re talking about me here! I’m the one who is indecisive, it’s me who lacks commitment!That was definately a lightbulb moment for me, I need to learn how to make better decisions.
Not making a decision is cowardly . The ex mm in the final days ‘didnt know what he wanted’ me the wife or new ow. As the rose tinted glasses smashed i extracted myself with the help from here . Oh he remained un happy for a month then supposedly left , still not knowing what he wanted ( it really is keeping the options open). He told me in a text he like the new ow and have been out for a coulple of drinks but wait for it still doesnt know what he needs . Maybe that was to sparey feelings . But his wife has now also walked . Three options down to one so hes got yo make it work or hes on jis own . Knowing him hes flirting up a storm to get his options back up to at least three as he doesnt know what he wants . Two made a decidion for him . And maybe given enough time the third will as well as the yrs tick by and she gets the same . Glad i got out when i did .
Tired I think these people know exactly what they want. They want to have a harem, they want to keep their options open. This claiming of ‘indecision’ is just to keep you there until they find some other new and interesting person. Two of my female friends are doing this right now to the guys they are dating. One has had a guy staying with her for 2 months but tells me on the phone that he is not the one and she has options at work (of which for the 14 yrs I’ve known her has never taken advantage of). The other kept telling the guy she didnt want a relationship but stayed around acting like she was in one all the while flirting and trying to hook up with others. All the sudden she tells me, he’s the one and she’s taking him home to meet the parents. I was like, what?! You just didnt want him last week.
See, I cant even figure my own friends out.
I think it’s scary how many unavailable people there are out there.
I have had the experience of letting my ex back in after he claimed (they’re JUST words… remember that) to have ‘decided’. I mean… the things he was ‘saying’, would’ve had anyone convinced. But 3 weeks later, back to his selfish self. And this was after our longest break up, so, I was thinking for sure, he must mean it ‘this’ time’ Umm… no, just more seemingly convincing hot air.
It’s a good thing this past year I really did some work on myself, because I wasn’t as emotional or reactive to his shady behavior like I used to be. I was watching his actions. And I finally walked when I knew, without a doubt, that his hot/cold, crap behavior… was not about me. But I only saw it for what it was by not being scared to see it for what it was. You have to be courageous, un-messable, and stop being so damn scared to watch what they do, not what they say. Fear will make you give these morons another chance. And you’re definately not paying attention.
Their unavailability is causing you to be unavailable too. Maybe you were a little unavailable when you started up… but it just snowballed from there. What these people are about.. will rub off on you in a negative way, and that’s where the low self-esteem kicks in, the self-doubt…and no self respect.
Available men (I’m dating one…
), they don’t play games. They’re consistent. They are respectful, generous and caring. And the difference in how I feel with the EAM, compared to the EUM, is amazing.
When you’re with someone who’s unavailable, blowing hot/cold… it does effect how you feel and think about yourself. You will become unavailable because you won’t trust this person (and why should you?). Being with someone who’s available… after some time, you will become available too… you will begin to trust, because they are consistent. They demonstrate integrity because their words and actions match.
I’ve had the experience of both. And believe me, availability is like heaven.. unavailability.. umm… like hell.
Not so long ago I was balling my eyes out after seeing my ex out (he was walking in town with a guy friend), and the flood gates opened. 15 minutes later, the ‘good’ egg calls me, has me laughing hysterically for an hour… hmm… crying vs. laughing. I think I’ll stick with the consistent, respectful, generous, no game-playin’ available ‘man’. And keep laughing… and feeling at peace.
Trust me, get rid of these on the fence people… they are causing you to be on the fence… and it makes you unavailable yourself. It’s stressful and it’s not what you want. Stop self-doubting yourself, thinking that it’s not working because of something you did or didn’t do. I did this ALL the time to myself.
I even had some anxiety after I ended things.. that he would find someone younger, have a better relationship, blah, blah… then I realized. I have to stop torturing myself.
I made the decision to let him go. And to be at peace with it. These people need to figure out their issues on their own, on their time, or someone else’s. It’s not our responsibility or our job to show or help them learn to become ‘available’ for us. We shouldn’t have to. We’ve got enough going on in our lives.. and our families and careers to think about. Stressing about these ‘unavailables’ will negatively effect every aspect of your life. Let them go.
Being confident, strong and ‘available’, is about keeping people like that out of our lives. We may grieve the loss of them (for whatever reason, lol), but we are absolutely capable of letting go, moving on… and eventually being with someone available who’s wonderful. I met my available man the night my unavailable one pulled shady behavior on me and went ‘dark’ (it would be his last time). Go figure, lol…
Demke — It is scary. I don’t think I had a clue about the majority of EUM men until the last 5 years being left scratching my head in confusion.
I’m so happy to hear you met a good one that is as you described above. I’d like to think after everything we’ve all been through, we’ll better recognize and appreciate the select few who are emotionally available.
Congrats on your “good egg.” (-:
Tired… yes, absolutely be glad that you got out. He sounds pathetic.
I’m doing this to my BF right now. Maybe I should show him the article. I feel awful for it.
One poster has asked “how hard is it to know how you feel”. When you been emotionally retarded for most of your life and you’re still carrying a lot of pain and anger, it’s incredibly difficult to untangle it all. Its spot on that you have to leave them to sort their own issues though
Natalie thank you so much for this post which really hit a nerve for me. Ex Narc/eum did the whole FF/idealization thing and I was in heaven. then he started blowing cold, then hot, maanaging down my expectations, smashing my self esteem into tiny pieces. I didn’t even want the relationship to go forward, I was happy seeing him once a week, talking once a day, making plans a month in advance maybe, nothing heavy. He withdrew verrrrry slooowly and every time I finished things he begged for me to stay. Poor little mite he just “didn’t know what was wrong with him.” He was “so effed up.” It was “him, not me.” Eventually I could stand no more of his indecision/increasing indifference and I ended it. He said he didn’t know what he wanted and he knew that wasn’t good enough. Will he let me go though? Keeps flip flapping around sucking me back in. I just finally had enough and went suddenly NC which has been 3 weeks now. He keeps calling and texting but I have stayed firm/not answered. The only problem I have is that I feel like the bad guy for pulling NC out of nowhere but I feel like I just don’t know what to say to him that would explain how I feel without sounding like a drama queen. I guess he knows really that I love him and I don’t want to give him the satisfaction of knowing how much he has hurt me. The thing is, his indecision has hurt him too and will continue to do so. He is another of these over 45 men who has never married/lived with anyone and seems incapable of committment. A very sad “Flush!”
Ah Victorious, you mustn’t feel guilty for going NC. Especially if he’s a narcissist. He’s going crazy trying to contact you not because he wants to make a relationship out of whatever’s left but because he can’t stand not to have you under his control. Remember the cartoon characters who hypnotise other characters by making their eyes turn into spinning pinwheel swirls? That’s why he wants to get back in front of your face. He wants to make spinning pinwheel swirly-eyes at you so that you continue to follow his orders. Hold tight — you cannot make a life with a narcissist.
Love this Grizelda! I’m committed to staying out of reach of those Narc pinwheel swirly control eyes forevermore, too!
High five sister. I was there for five years. Waking up to it and getting over it is like trying to bring yourself out from under general anaesthetic.
God Grizelda that is so right and yes he is definitely a narc. Pretty textbook but I had no idea until I was in way too deep. Getting over a narc is a major endeavour for me. I have plenty of relationship splits behind me, including 2 divorces, but nothing compares to this. The SPINNING EYES!!! Yes, like Kaaa the snake in Jungle Book, my fave ever Disney movie. That is exactly what he was like. He used to gaze right into my eyes. I thought he was doing it to make the most of the adoring gaze in my eyes, so he could absorb it and stock up on his narcissistic supply. Maybe he was also hypnotising me!
Victorious,
“He used to gaze right into my eyes. I thought he was doing it to make the most of the adoring gaze in my eyes,…Maybe he was also hypnotising me!”
Ha, YES, I think you may be onto something here, lol. The exMM would want to “eye-gaze” for long periods of time after an initial period of squinting whenever I looked into his eyes. Later on, at times, he would almost stare at me, with his eyes getting bigger. It was a bit creepy. And I also remember one time after one of our many “breakups”, he told me in an email that he wanted to take me for lunch, and look lovingly onto my eyes so I knew he cared for me. Now I think that may all be part of his control techniques. *But*, really, who comes out and TELLS people they are planning on looking lovingly into their eyes?
I’m going to be really honest and say this is me. I have shown that indecisiveness and like Lawrence says my indecisiveness was a big hint that I didn’t really want the relationship but I was so fixated on making it ok when it wasn’t that I carried on – and that wasn’t fair to either of us. Its like the post that espoir put up.
That’s helpful – is the indecisveness because of a vulnerability which we all have – and when its there needs to be taken in context of the relationship….I have been abused in relationships for such a long time I am genuinely very wary of ever trying again – especially as I’m ok on my own. If a guy shows interest in me I don’t want it…will that come with time? Will I ever feel ok again? Will I feel like I can be ok in a relationship? I’ve come so far and I know I’m ok (mostly), I know my values and I’m worthy…I HOPE I won’t make the same mistakes again, I HOPE I have learned from my past but as soon as someone shows interest in me … I WANT it to be ok but inside I’m running for the hills….I feel I’m super sensitive and having to tell myself they are not the exes.
For instance..I asked a male friend for dinner to say thanks for some work he has done for me. He is kind and funny and hasn’t shown me any dodgy behaviour. My friends tell me he likes me and I’m not picking up on the signals…I don’t know. Anyway, I asked him for dinner and he said yes and then a while later he sent a text saying ‘ha I said yes before checking if you could cook’…..my exes would both say hurtful things and pass it off as a joke and I found myself thinking ‘is he trying to get out of it now, does he regret saying yes’ and I had to think who am I dealing with? He is not like them, he has’t said or done anything hurtful to me so I mustn’t apply the same rules to him. But sometimes this all seems so DIFFICULT I don’t want to do it!
Sorry a bit off topic…I’m learning from this site and grateful
Kendo – I know that feeling. I got to the point where after dating a couple senior citizen major league assclowns in a row, I felt like I had to use waaay too much brain power dating again to discern whether a comment or an action meant that this was yet another jerk.
It made my head hurt and was no fun, so I opted out. I think Natalie would say that if you are suspicious about the guys intentions by their words or actions, there’s probably a reason why. For now, I’ve turned the page on dating. But I haven’t burned the book yet so if I met someone who truly seemed authentic, I’d give it a shot, hoping that I’m wiser now thanks to BR! Good luck Kendo!
This is exactly where I am. I appreciate and will apply Natalie’s advice when I’m ready to date again. It feels like going into war though. I find it hard to imagine relaxing enough to be open and judiciously vulnerable, especially when the red flags are so easy to see now. Sometimes, I wish I knew less than more but knowledge is power.
Thanks for this post. I recently dated a guy who, after 4 or 5 dates, told me that he wanted to date other people. This was while we were half way to actually having sex for the first time. I asked him to leave.
Discussion over the next few days was me explaining to him that I date one person at a time. I don’t assume it’s a ‘relationship’ already, but see how it goes. I said I would like to see him again if he wanted to date on those terms. He replied but it was like he hadn’t even read half my message, asking what “format” we should use since he was enjoying dating others and had a great date earlier that week blah blah. He hadn’t made a decision and instead wanted me to.
I told him that that we are not looking for the same things (me a relationship; him play the field).
While all this was going on, I read a lot on Natalie’s website and the Mr Unavailable/ Fallback Girl. It helped me realise that I HAVE to heed the red flags (there were others here) and I must have boundaries and stick to them.
It was all quite hurtful but whenever I feel bad I imagine how much worse I’d be feeling today if I’d agreed to his plan, wondering who he dated last night and whether they had sex etc etc etc.
I am working on self esteem issues!
Mary,
All I can say about your indecisive man is – Ew! Asking about “format” and telling you about great dates with others – WTH? So glad you flushed this player and are being good to YOU instead!
Mary,
“Format”? What a loser. Flush. I am so sorry that you had to deal with this child,
They mention other women, imo, in an attempt to inflate themselves, cut you down and deflate you and your confidence, or to try their hand to see if they can make you jealous. There is NEVER a postive reason to tell a woman ( that you are dating, or have recently broke up with), about a good date or even a bad one. It is all ego.
I recently refused a coffee invitation with my ex who liked to mention other women after our breakup, after reflecting on the two other times we have seen each other since the breakup-the first time he felt the need to bring up dating and told me that he was dating 4 different women, after we had been broken up a month, and the next time he tried to get me in a bikini to swim at his place, which i did not-both times left me feeling irritated, sad and a bit freaked out. So I asked myself ‘Hmm would I like to spend today irritated, sad and freaked out, or would I like to make soup and be happy?” No brainer. So he had coffee by himself and about a week later I got several Facebook messages from some woman who he is apparently dating, asking me if we were still a couple and seemingly confused and wanting to know if it would affect his and my “relationship” if they dated…it was eye-opening to say the least.
Okay I admit, I was dying to know the back story! Lol. But you can hardly ask that and I am pretty much nc; my guess is that he is probably yanking her around and giving her reason to be unclear about their relationship already, by trying to say that it would somehow hurt me if they dated…which frankly it won’t, I am so done and I don’t even care, except for being disappointed in how lame he ended up being. Glad he is flushed. Keep flushing too Mary and head up!
Dancing,
He sounds pathetic!!!!
Why in the world would he disclose that he is dating four different women!!! I also feel sorry for the new one, it doesn’t sound like he wasted much time screwing with her head.
You’re lucky you’re out!!!!!
Hey Allison,
I was wondering that as well; I actually felt a bit sorry for him when he told me that. He said something to the effect of that he had dated 4 women since we broke up and none came close to me…but really it was not a compliment; it was a way to 1) make it like he could date up a storm, 2) try to manipulatively make me think he still felt something for me, while 3) creating a disclaimer.
He is 52; yes, I can do better than a man who pulls crap like that, that is 20 year old stuff.
I felt badly for his new freind though to be honest. She sent me two emails, through facebook, even though she does not know me. One as I mentioned and the other ( I had not responded to the first because it felt odd) apologizing profusely and saying that she felt “sophmoric” and “embarressed” because she had felt confused, reached out, and realized how inappropriate it was. I actually responded to that because I imagined how embarressed I would be if I had done that. I told her that people do things when their feeling are strong, that I was actually not really in touch with him and that she had a misunderstanding about us being close. I told her that our breakup was little drama ( at the time it was not) and that I was dating others and wished him the best to make his life happy. It was about 4 lines.
I do agree; he probably is making her a bit crazy, to have contacted me when she did not know me. It is tempting to say something to him,but I am not going to:) Maybe I should send her this link though,as it looks like she might need it in the future;)
dancingqueen,
it would be a good deed if you sent her a link to BR, she sounds like she needs it now!
Dancing,
Maybe you should send the link.:)
I think he may have given the impression that you were still present, to protect himself from being in a committed relationship, and to keep her off-balance – my ex did the same thing to me with his ex wife.
You are lucky to be rid of Mr. Mind F*^k!
Mary, I’m sorry but that man is disgusting. Like Dancingqueen pointed out, you don’t tell someone you’re dating about the great date you just had with someone else.
Everyone knows that the words ‘date’ and ‘sex’ become interchangeable after a certain amount of time together. He was trying to make sure that when you start having sex (which seemed on the cards) that you’re okay with him having sex with other women simultaneously. He wasn’t even prepared to sneak around behind your back — he wanted you to volunteer for active service in his Sloppy Seconds Tour of Duty. He would have expected you to be grateful too, for the kind invitation. What kind of man does that??
Can you just imagine his response if you told him that you’re ready to start sleeping with him… so long as he knows you’re already sleeping with four other men? And that you’re prepared to schedule him in for either every other Tuesday or Friday, but not both?
lol Grizelda, seriously…how funny would that be to just be able to say that? Just to see what they would say? Mary too bad you could not have just whipped out your iphone and pulled up the calender “Okay, so I am getting shagged on Monday the 12th by that hottie, but I might be up for it again on the 15th…oh no, actually he is more well endowed than you, so I might need a few more days to recover…okay what about this format? I could slate you in on the 18th if he does not show up.” Okay mean but really what a db lol.
Actually, I think it’s better that this clown was upfront, as it gave her an out. Much better than to find out down the road that he is cheating with multiple partners.
Grizelda, you come up with the best plots, I think it`ll be great to mess with their heads a little, why not….
Unfortunately there is a certain kind of man who finds that kind of thing a massive turn on. One might find out that the idea of you sleeping around was very much to his liking.
Recognising that they’re on the fence and indecisive. Check
Stop giving them the time of day. Check
Giving them a second chance when they turn back up saying theyve decided. Check
Recognising that their old ways are back and they’re blowing hot and cold again. Check
Flush. Check
My story plays like the bullet points of this article. But what I can’t seem to do (and what I really still need help with ) is the fact that now he is in a committed relationship with someone else and I’m still single. I left a flip flapping mr unavailavle so that i could be available to others but instead he became available to someone else. I feel like i was the bait to pull him in to relationship land and now some other chick is reaping the benefits. I’d love to think “better her put up with his hot and cold ways than me ” but I honestly don’t think it’s true. I think he’s changed. For her. And it’s killing me. Advice please
Jelby,
Natalie has written posts on “why her and not me” and also on EUMs not changing without doing serious work on themselves, and not spontaneously combusting into healthy, available men. It is unlikely he is EA with this new woman. You are better off without him, Hugs xo
what makes you think he’s ‘committed’ to her? you think he’s changed? what makes you think that? unless they’re doing a lot of work on themselves, they don’t change. it took me 2 years of working on myself to go from emotionally unavailable to emotionally available. i didn’t even date in that time. what you see is often not what you get. don’t have any illusions that he’s miraculously changed. he hasn’t. he’s a wolf in sheep’s clothing, at best.
Jelby, someone, might have been Grizelda but might not, made a comment a while ago about how the ex is probably making the “new girl” feel “a little bit awful” just as you are thinking how wonderful their relationship is. You already know how the story goes and it will be just the same for her. These particular men should come with a health warning and you should feel sorry for her. Only for a second though, then start thinking about you instead and how life is short and you are going to make yours wonderful.
Me I think, Vic.
jelby – I recently typed a very long account of my experience with people ‘changing’ a few weeks or so back and I won’t subject everyone to it again. But basically my ex-EUM HAS changed for someone else (or else is doing a very good job of pretending to).
As he’s also the father of my child I’ve had front-row seats to this (which you don’t need to have! Hurray! Make the most of THAT happy thought
). But it took a lot of seriously weird and unpleasant events to make it happen and it hasn’t happened overnight – he’s made lots of mistakes in the meantime.
I don’t believe that anyone who habitually treats their partners badly is EVER going to change in an instant purely because they meet ‘The One’.
It’s a popular concept in various silly films and PUA circles and so on, but it’s rubbish. In the first place, if you took the concept of partnership THAT seriously to begin with then you wouldn’t blithely (sorry for the language but I can’t think of another way to put this) p!ss all over it beforehand.
And in the second, behaving with integrity is a muscle that needs developing. Someone who never ever concentrates on anything is not suddenly going to be able to sit down and apply themself to a boring task for two hours without a break, someone who doesn’t ever think about other peoples’ feelings is not going to suddenly find that they’ve magically acquired the powers of the Incredible Mr Considerate.
It’s also worth pointing out that although my experience has not been very nice (aka: Every FallBack Girl’s Worst Nightmare) I’m alright and, give or take the odd Bad Day, I don’t really mind anymore. Even if yours is the 0.000000001%-chance spontaneous combuster, it’s not the end of you and YOUR story. Like Victorious says, the more you focus on those things, the less it’ll bother you.
Stick to your own path and let him follow his. His path smells.
“someone who doesn’t ever think about other peoples’ feelings is not going to suddenly find that they’ve magically acquired the powers of the Incredible Mr Considerate.”
I posted this and then started thinking about how difficult it’s been for ME to become more decisive, punctual, reliable and considerate. Seriously, this stuff takes EFFORT and TIME.
“His path smells” I am falling off the sofa laughing!
“Behaving with integrity is a muscle that needs developing.” What a great way to put this! And how true.
Jelby,
Probably because she treats him like crap.
If you had treated him like crap, he would probably have stayed with you. Most of these EU men like women who dump on them, so they can keep trying to “conquer”. It is a no-win to be with a guy like that; do you really want a man whose leash you need to yank all the time? Good job flushing:)
“Most of these EU men like women who dump on them, so they can keep trying to “conquer”.”
That, and also I think because it’s ‘safe’.
He’s with you and he can’t commit, you have a rubbishy half-relationship which requires no genuine intimacy.
He’s with her and she can’t commit, they have a rubbishy half-relationship which requires no genuine intimacy.
Spot the similarity…
Totally agree with the others. He hasn’t made himself available to a new woman in the same way that a leopard doesn’t avail himself of a new set of spots.
She just hasn’t yet discovered what you already know. Oh but she will.
And Jelby don’t believe for one minute that it’s somehow your fault. You didn’t ‘make’ him relationship-ready — that’s magical thinking. I’m sorry but you (or I, or any of us here) are just not that powerful that we can magically transform an emotionally devoid man into one who’s just bursting with love and affection… without him even noticing, no less taking part in all the mental and emotional upgrades he requires. This isn’t the Shoemaker and the Elves fable where you’re the Elves that do all the work behind the scene. You haven’t transformed the maker of crummy falling-apart shoes that don’t fit anyone into some kind of Manolo Blahnik.
Mark my words, he has not changed. He has just changed women — for now.
We want these guys to change, for us. It’s impossible. So, they blow hot with the next fallback girl, they find women who will accept them for who they are.. or who they ‘think’ they are, just like we did. There are women who are ok with crumbs. We’re not. It’s a matter of what you will accept and not accept. Not so much that he’s morphed into this Mr. Wonderful. He’s who he is. Just a different woman, willing to accept what he has on offer. We know, it’s crumbs. To the new fallback girl, it very well could be a loaf.
What you need to understand is that this is not the man for you. He did not treat you how you needed to be treated. Give yourself some credit that you left… he probably knew you were done. These men don’t waste time finding a new fallback, he probably blew red hot with her to keep her because you just took away his ‘option’, you.
Don’t you want better than that? I have a few stories where the women thought the same thing.. that their ex’s morphed into Mr. Wonderful with the next one… so not true. At least not in any of the examples I know of. The next woman usually experiences the same issues, it’s just she may handle it differently by not saying a word.
I remember when my ex and I first started hanging out, I overheard him talking to one of his ex’s girlfriends. Now, I was with him for about 3-4 months.. they were broken up for almost 6. He said to her friend, ‘I’ve tried calling her a few times, she won’t answer my calls’. So, his ex went NC on him too. He was still reaching out to her while he was with me. I still think of that til’ this day sometimes. I should’ve ran then. And he also talked about his ex a few times to me in the beginning… then he ‘fell inlove with me’, while going behind my back, etc.. I honestly cannot see how these guys ‘really’ change all that much. They will be with someone who allows them to get away with their crap behavior.
Spot on.
When I arrived at BR I was a grieving, miserable wreck – a shadow of my former self. An affair with an EUM/AC/MM had completely eroded my self-esteem, I’d allowed all my boundaries to be busted, I had been living a lie and had compromised my values, was in denial and could hardly believe what I had just lived through. Fast forward several months I’m still grieving because I lost my baby and that is going to take some time, but after months of reading BR and taking in others experience I can truly say that I’m well on the way to recovery. I now have a firm grasp on what happened, why I allowed it and will NEVER let it happen again. I had been living in a fantasy of my own creating albeit encouraged by the MM. I have paid a very high price for that fantasy, I have been in much pain, but I have learned.
Here’s an example, over the last few weeks I have been working on a manuscript with him (via email). He didn’t want to just use email (ironic really given he ‘managed’ our entire ‘relationship’ via email), but I refused to work with him via Skype or phone. I’m following Natalie’s advice for NC when you have to work with someone and it is working. He has made several attempts to try to break my resolve, has asked me what my future plans are, has offered his services as my interview coach (again), has provided me with fantastic references and I’m sure expected a fawning, grateful response (he got a polite thank you), wished me happy birthday and has tried to be funny. A couple of days back he sent me an email saying he was sorry he had missed my call and would I like him to call me. What call? I hadn’t called him! Well, I’m not playing anymore and I haven’t responded to any of it. No more fantasy for me I’m keeping it real. I remember once asking him about our future. His reply “the future is hard to predict – let me see what happens in the next few months”. Well for me the future isn’t so hard to predict at least where he’s concerned. I’ve taken my life back, no more seeking validation, no more waiting for him to make a decision, no more ambiguity, no more accepting crumbs and best of all no more cruel dismissal of my emotions.
I’ve shed my last tears over this man. I will shed a few more for my baby boy, but I’m slowly, slowly accepting his loss. In the previous post (Tulipa and Little Star) there was a discussion about becoming a ‘BR woman or man as may be’. Thanks to BR and all who post I think I’m on my way to becoming one.
And Learner, I’m so happy to hear that you are doing so well. We’ve come a long way!
Oh wonderful Lilly. “I’ve taken my life back, no more seeking validation, no more waiting for him to make a decision, no more ambiguity, no more accepting crumbs and best of all no more cruel dismissal of my emotions.” Someone on the last article started a list of what it means to be a BR Lady/Man. These should be added to the list for sure. Congratulations and an extra big hug for you and your little one.
*I’m thinking we need “I’m a BR Lady/Man” T-Shirts. That way we would be able to recognize one another!
runner, YES, I would so wear that T-shirt!
Yes,sign me up for one of those T-Shirts:)
Lilly I’m so pleased for you! I was hoping you’d come and give us an update on yourself.
The CLARITY with which you write these things is entirely different from where you were a couple months ago when I was new to BR. And it’s not just clarity you’re conveying but a much more comprehensive eagle-eye view of what has happened and is happening. You know what playbook your ex is using on you — you’ve read it! — and your response is inspiring. How does it feel now to be so STRONG?!
Lilly,
You sound better every time that you write; keep it up! Forward, no wondering who he really was…you know…not your problem. You are strong and you can do it!!!!:)
Lilly:
I’ve been following your story for a while (even though I haven’t commented – I’ve felt unqualified and words have failed me) and I’m so glad that you’re feeling stronger and happier. Lots of hugs xx
Oh, Lilly, it’s so good to hear you sounding so strong. I am so glad you are managing to keep your contact with him to email only, as you refine your manuscript. It sounds like he is grasping at straws to get you back to his FBG, but you are resisting wonderfully, and keeping your boundaries. Brava!
I can relate to your story of how you felt on arrival at BR, compared to how you feel now. You are right, we HAVE come a long way. Let’s stay on this new, healthy path. Hugs xo
Oh they know what they want most of the time.. and it’s not you. They’re just not ready to go solo. So they’re either in the process of withdrawal/ justifying to themselves why it’s ok to do it to you or are looking around already. Either way nothing for you to wait for. Mind you not being able to make a decision is not a masculine trait and not attractive. In most cases quite the opposite of they way they were selling themselves or the way you saw them at first. So they’re not that person. Of course there’s an emotional attachment and history together, but they’re not that person. So who the hell they are? One thing for sure not the one you fell for;)
word
Truth.
Sm exactly . He wanted to keep his options open as he prob didnt know how it was gonna pan out with the new ow . But i was to smart and sussed it . Even now it will be i dont know what i want. Im glad im gone and i told him that im not fighting for scraps , flush , in the end hell lise everthing as he cant decide . He can play around with orher peeps feelings im looking after me x
I ve just started following this site..when i had a breakup recently.i just cant explain how much ur posts and articles have helped me out..i m so thankful that i ot to know abt this site…
This is indeed a reality..a factual truth..even a suffered a bitter separation coz i was so damn serious about this guy.i had planned my entire life…with him.and even not in my wildest dreams i have ever tough of someone else..but this guy..he is indecisive everysecond day..despite the fact that four years ago he only came to me…to be with me..he made me so adamant about this relationship and now i could see that when he was satisfied that i was into him only…he started slowly withdarawing out..
At slightest of things he wud get mad at me.stopped talking for days..and even abuses..
And then when i stop talking to him.cox of his misbehaviour..he just opens his mouth and blindly makes a statement that***why wud i talk to him..i have many others to pass myy time with***
And for the abuses .he makes and excuse that i only make him so angry that forces him to abuse him..had there be any one else he wudnt havve abused..
Please help me out…sometimes i feel that i m being so negatively judgemental abt him..or what i m thinng i ethically right..
Sejal,
The abuse issue is serious. Abuse is not about indecision. Please see Natalie’s post on “choppers”. You do NOT make him so angry that it forces him to abuse you. That is pure BS and dangerous. Is there someone you can talk to? Can you seek some professional assistance ASAP? Additionally, from what you have written, it does not seem like you are being negatively judgmental. You must make a decision to protect yourself. My thoughts are with you. Please let us know how you are doing.
I m protecting myself…but i just dont know why i love him so much…he hurts me with his rude and raw behaviour everytime..even i think to aanswer him in his own lang.uage,,,but somehow my inner soul dont allow me ti be harsh with him..i feel guiltyy,,of hurting his f eelings….i often wonder,..why doesnt he think so…..can i b.e so wrong in judging him..i mean why cant i see that there is so much wrong in him..my mind knows it..but my heart just cannot accept this..and thats the reason..i vant forget him..is this a normal thought process..or i m being overly into him..??
Sejal,
Everything that you wrote states that you are with someone abusive. You cannot fix him or change him. You can only, I am sorry to say, stay and choose to be abused or leave, and choose yourself.
Choose yourself. Always,
((Hugs))
“Both of you may be afraid but you’re taking the leap of faith together.” … beautiful.
The fears are communicated to each other and are worked on together, creating a closer bond … not one verbalizing needing time and space, setting up fear and panic in the other, creating chaos and dysfunction and a disproportion of power. Ugh.
Being committed to someone who is uncertain they want to be with you has got to be one of the most soul-destroying insults of all time. It is an act of self-hatred to stick with that.
I know I’ve quoted this before, but I love what Maya Angelou said: “Never make a priority out of someone when they are making you an option.”
Ladies, I need your advice. How does ‘exclusivity in dating’ play into this whole indecision ascpect.
Here is my situation, I’ve been dating this guy for about a month and grown to like him. However, he has been very clear that he is dating some else beside me from date 2.
I was fine with that initially but lately he’s been pulling back. Less date and seems to want to hang out with me less. He says that everything is fine and that he busy, tired and sick. And yes; he is still dating this other women and want to get to know us better prior to making a final decision. Is this normal behavior in dating? I’m new to this whole dating scene and a lot of behavior confuses me. I’m the most monogamous person on the planet and cannot date multiple folks. So this whole thing is baffling to say the least.
Confused123, I’m new to the dating thing too so you should take everything I say with a grain of salt. However, I’m not new to BR. I’ve been reading and implementing Natalie’s advice as well as the BR community for two years. It’s paid off, particularly Natalie’s advice with regards to dating as a discovery phase.
For me, one month of dating someone hasn’t been enough time to figure out whether I would want to be exclusive. Within the past 6 months, I’ve only dated one guy three times and, apparently, he expected things to get physical. But I didn’t know him enough even though it had been a almost a month. It wasn’t that I was indecisive or sitting on the fence, I just didn’t know him. I’m hugely monogamous too but don’t confuse monogamy with actually getting to know somebody.
Dear lord, I can’t believe I could possibly know a perfect stranger after one month. Am I operating in the stone ages? With speed dating, online dating, and the internet, it seems like things go from zero to sixty in a nano second. A month seems like a lifetime? Confused 123, after a month, what do you know about this gentleman that makes you so sure you would want to be exclusive with him? You don’t have to wait around for him to decide between you and another woman. Question: What has he got on offer that would cause you to consider being exclusive after one month? Answer: “Tired, busy, and sick”?
Thanks Runnergirl:
Honestly, I’m exhausted wtih dating. Either they throw-up more red flags that a communist convention or they are half decent but have issues like multiple dating, which I have a hard time understanding. I think I need a break.
I’ve gone off dating considerably lately. Closed my Match profile.
The way I’m looking at this situation is as follows,
1. I’ve pulled way way way back. No unnecessary calls, txts, check-in etc. if he contact, I reply but only as needed.If he wants to get to know me, that’s great but I’m not going to chase him.
2. I’m going in this with the attitude that he will break-up with me and decide to date the other women. So be it.
3. Stop dating till May 2013.
I honestly need a break.
Oh and Runnergirl, you are right. I am confusing the lack of red-flag with knowing someone. I should’nt.
Confused123
I have been reading some information from another dating coach and she goes on and on about how women should always be dating multiple men (not necessarily sleeping with them) and that men cannot do the same thing. I don’t get it at all. It’s called circular dating and in theory it looks good because the theory is that it will make the man step up, not because the woman is playing a game, but because her vibe is so uplifted and she is happy that the man will just want to be with her. But I would not be comfortable doing this because I would not want the man that I am dating to be dating someone else, so how can that be fair if I am doing it. That’s apart from the fact that I can only concentrate on one man at a time and if I like him I want to just be with him and could not stand dating someone else. Anyway, the whole concept is supposed to put a stop to all this indecision because the man will only want you if you are so busy with your own life (and other men). It apparently works for some, just not me.
See, this is where I have a problem with the term ‘dating’. There’s a definite statement of intent in there.
In its best form, dating is what I used to call ‘hanging out with male mates’ (the vast majority of whom I didn’t want to be with, or them with me, or one or both of us was attached etc). From that point of view then of course it’s great if they have other mates who they also hang out with, in fact it would be weird if they didn’t.
As soon as you call it ‘dating’ though, it becomes clear that it’s an audition for both parties to work out if the other is a good fit for a relationship, and then your situation, confused123, seems icky to my mind. No way would I want to be faffing about with someone who effectively made it clear that I was in some sort of gerbil-race with another contender. He could bog off.
Being aware that you’re in ‘competition’ is hardly going to bring out your best side, or at least it wouldn’t with me. Plus, then it starts to feel like a WIN or LOSE??! situation and he starts to feel like a prize, which he may well not be. I think that runnergirl’s advice is really good but ugh, no, it’d be a red flag for me.
(As a disclaimer, I should add that my social life currently consists of second birthday parties and I’m British, which means that the whole concept of dating is less established in my head. So it’s not like I’m an expert).
Confused123,
I`m with Yoghurt on this. I find the whole concept of multiple dating normalises the making of people into instant options and that`s an idea I strongly disagree with. I know lots of people do it but I think it`s totally disrespectful. Internet dating has probably played a mayor role in spreading this idea, it used to be called two-timing and for a good reason. If someone doesn`t want to give me enough of a time of day and respect to get to know me outside of some harem they are busy creating, they are not worth my time. Exclusivity becomes a precious prize, a carrot instead of being normal and basic. I also don`t see that a point where you become exclusive is a safe point to start sex, it should be when you feel comfortable that the relationship is going forward. If you are seeing a multidater there is no chance of the relationship going forward because you`ll have a hard time trusting them and you will feel what you are, an option. I stopped reading “expert” relationship advice shortly after reading Natalie. Some of these people dishing it out are seriously messed up, possibly under pressure to produce something innovative or shocking to get read, don`t know but a lot of them talk absolute rubbish. It`s just their opinions and we have a right to our own. We do have perfectly good minds and guts and feelings to make our own conclusions.
I agree. Two timing is right. How in the world can any budding relationship have a chance if one party is trying on other potential relationships at the same time? Going on dates with multiple people as in, “let’s meet for coffee, let’s see what we have in common” at the very beginning of looking for a partner is one thing. But it would seem that once people make it through the “getting to know you” dating stage, (which should NOT include sex/moving in/lending money/giving your heart away, etc.) they are at a point where they want to see if this relationship can deepen and go forward – and how can you possibly give it a fair and honest shot if you are seeing somebody else as well? I don’t get why this is ok.
Confused 123
It is NEVER appropriate in my opinion, to date someone and talk about other people you are dating. One can say “I am taking my time in getting to know someone, before we see if we are exclusive” but telling someone outright that you are dating another person is a power play; it is a way to set it up to have the power.
Honestly flush, he is taking you for a ride and he is being an ass already. You also need to ask yourself why you are interested in a man who told you that he thinks that HE is in the position to make that choice between you two. You are BOTH in that position. Bounce him or you will be back on the merry-go-round that brought you here in the first place my dear.
Sorry for the harsh words, but imo, that is the reality and I want you to see it.:(
Hi Dancingqueen:
Actually, he mentioned the other person when I asked. He’s actually not an AC. Trust me, I’ve been with enough to know when I’ve see one. This exact reason is exactly why I like him a lot. So different from the usual crowd and he is genuinely a nice guy but to Runnergirl’s point I need to get to know him.
He exact words were “I am taking my time in getting to know you both as I like you both, before we see if we are exclusive. You need to be patient and I won’t rush this. You need to be yourself and honest.”
And I am honest with him. Brutally so. He know’s I don’t anyone else once I have a commection with someone.
My issue is he’s lack of effort to get to know me has diminished. Not sure if this is he’s pulling back because, a) he more interested in the other women or b) this is him slowing thing down.
Either way, I’m totally diging him but I am clear in this mind that it may not work and he may not feel the same way.
Confused123,
Okay so what about this; ask him what is up? If he is honest, he will tell you. Just say that you have noticed his cooling off, and you would like to know what it is. Good luck.
Nyeh.
“You need to be patient and I won’t rush this. You need to be yourself and honest.”
Jolly nice of him to give YOU a point-by-point instruction manual on Landing His Wonderful Self. ‘You NEED to…’? Seriously? ‘I won’t rush this’? I bet.
Sorry, I’m sure that he has many fine qualities and I’m equally sure that his behaviour is perfectly acceptable and culturally-sanctioned in the wonderful world of relationship advice.
But, honestly, I can’t think of anything more guaranteed to turn the actually-supposed-to-be-quite-pleasant process of getting to know someone into an experience akin to lying on pins. Surely no-one is THAT great.
Confused123,
I`m so sorry, but I think that you are already getting crumbs and trying to justify his behaviour. You don`t know him yet, nobody unfolds in a month, on the other hand a month is plenty of time to know if you are intersted in getting to know someone or not.He is sitting on the fence already, managing down your expectations to you must be fine with him dating someone else too. Boy do I remember doing that and it was just the beginning…. I think you are looking at the potential here rather than reality. Maybe ask yourself how this whole thing is making you feel? Are you really comfortable knowing he is considering a relationship with someone else as well as with you? The issue here is not why he does it but THAT he does it.
Confused123, my God I cant believe what he said to you!!! Not even trying to hide and keep his “harem” in the secret…Please do not waste your precious time, DUMP him honey and go NC!
Confused, it doesn’t matter whether it’s “normal” or not, what matters is DOES IT WORK FOR ***YOU***???
If it doesn’t, flush him, let him go.
I’ve dated men who were dating other women who tried to play us against each other and were lying and manipulative, and dated men who, despite dating other women, made me feel secure and appreciated and respected. I have friends ranging from true monogamy – married the first person they ever dated and have never been with anyone else and have been married for decades, to sexual libertines who have many lovers who are also true friends, to poly friends in all kinds of configurations and it really all boils down to..what works for YOU.
Decide how you want to feel, what you want, and if he’s not living up to it, let him go. It could be as normal as the day is long, but if it doesn’t work for you, don’t try to wrap your mind around it, just toss it and move on.
Experienced all the above indecisive crap recently. I won’t get into a rant, but I feel proud because after initially (the first couple of days after I broke it off) responding to his emails/phonecalls), I haven’t been in contact at all for three months, have ignored emails and phone messages, and have finally (now) unfriended him on Facebook. Flush – and no regrets.
And I have to add that reading these posts and the responses, has been really fantastic in helping me keeping my resolve not to contact. Thanks everyone.
Oh yes, I’ve dated some indecisive SOBs in my time. I’ve heard it all. Let’s pull out the laundry list, shall we?
“I’m not ready for a relationship.”
“I don’t want to get married again.”
“You really are the perfect girl for me, but I’m just not sure if I’m ready to be in a relationship with ANYONE right now.”
“No man knows what he wants. Even the man who SAYS he knows what he wants and goes after it with determination doesn’t know what he wants.”
These were (literally) my responses:
“Well, when will you know for sure? Should I wait?” (I know, ugh.)
“That’s okay, because I’M not even sure about YOU yet either.”
“Listen, you’re either in or you’re out.”
These were different ACs at different times in my life. The thing of it is, Natalie is right. It really is soul-destroying when you’re the target of ambiguity. It’s also hard because I’m not exactly chasing the ring (or anything else for that matter), but these guys come at you like, “Whoa….slow the wedding wagon down!” when all you’re doing is going out for some friendly dinner. Ummm…..HUH?! WTF?
I remember one AC was trying to decide (unsolicitedly from me, might I add) if he wanted to marry me. I was like, “WTF? I’m not even TALKING about marriage!” Then I added, “And what makes you so sure I want to marry YOU in the first place?! It takes TWO to make that decision, you know!” He had this stunned look on his face that I’ll never forget. Like it had never occurred to him that, I don’t know, maybe I WOULD HAVE some sort of say in the future of our JOINT relationship.
Ass, meet elbow. Sheesh.
Your post reminding me about the FF AC iwas last involved with. I think we had been dating a month, when he told me to reach in the top drawer of a dresser to find this ring that was in there to see if it fit. I said oh is this cinderella – oooops the ring does not fit, I must be the wrong girl – God these guys are just gross. What an a**, can’t even believe I wasted my time and energy. Very, very painful experience – watch out for those high school sweethearts and crushes!!
I must admit I feel bad about not treating my ex worse and keeping him on a leash. I feel that this is the main reason he disappeared. it wasn’t too hard, even a notch or two down at times would do. I feel foolish for not understanding it at the time.
I fully agree with the conclusion of your post.
The last time I saw and spoke to my ex boyfriend, he clearly admitted he was being undecisive and hesitating.
Spontaneaously, I responded that if he was being hesitant, things would not work out in the future, and that I did not want be with someone who hesitated to be with me.
I felt arrogant afterwards, but now I am fine with it, all the more so that I feel ‘validated’ by your own perception, Natalie.
Thank you again. If you knew how much help and support I’ve found since I’ve been reading you, you’d be amazed.
By the way, I’m French and willing to translate your articles, should you need people for that!
Great idea Lili, I could translate them to Spanish if Natalie needs us to!
Thanks for your feedback, I was just wondering the other day how French girls deal with these topics, French men are so charming that they apparently seem to be better partners but I guess I just got caught up with images.
Lili — I have a question. As yet another U.S. official gets taken down over an extramarital affair, the argument is trotted out again in our media that French and Italian women don’t care if their men cheat, with the clear implication that American women shouldn’t care either. Is there any truth to that?
Linden,
Well I am not Italian, but I did notice that Berlusconi’s wife was publicly absolutely furious with his shenanigans, sex scandals and “banga banga” parties and is now divorcing him. Then again she started her relationship with him as an OW when he was still married to wife number one so perhaps it only goes to prove that what they do with you they will do to you.
It’s not that they do or don’t care about their own men and women it’s that the French tend to not care so much about their public figures’ private. They are just not intersted in this kind of stuff, you cannot fill newspapers with it, one quality I appreciate about the French (I’m not French myself, so I’m not biased when I say this).
I lived in France for close to two years, I could be wrong but also there is much more legal right to privacy there for public figures. You can sue someone for exposing too much of your private life, in the public eye, if they do not have your permission.
As far as infidelity; none of my French friends would stand for it, but I think that there is more acceptance of the fact that it is very possible to want to have a lover, during a long relationship. There is not the super judgmental attitude that Americans have. I don’t think that they cheat more or feel blase about it, but they are not so hung up on religious convictions nor is the press there; it is more laissez faire.
Yes, I agree that atheism is a major factor to consider in Europe which is atheist for the most part as opposed to US where 40 percent of the population subscribe to radical fundamentalist religion.
Well, you hit the nail on the head! I have just pulled out of such a relationship, I wasted a year with the indecisive man…I’m starting to believe those men are narcissists. They seem to enjoy watching us struggle, up and down like a yoyo, I bet some of you experienced his meltdown, his stress, his lack of purpose, his lack of enthusiasm…etc, all along making YOU feel guilty for it all? Oh let me guess, did yours ask you for space, time all alone, with no details on when he would be available again? Yep that’s the one? Never will I ever waste time, I know them now…
My AC’s excuse was chronic pain, I tragically sat on a bench for 3 months “waiting” for the “love of my life” cause we were on break due to his pain, even asked him if this meant we were dating, seeing or sleeping with others – his answer “no”. After the break, when we got back together, he had slept with a woman and was trying to pick up on another. Uhhh – I thought you could not be in a relationship because of your chronic pain??? Huh – FLUSH
The EUM I was in a relationship for a little over a year, after I accepted a job, planned to make a move across country to live with him, said I don’t think this is going to work. Well, he changed his tune, but the day I moved, he came and got me, he left me and my two dogs, in his driveway, saying it wasn’t going to work. I didn’t have a car, no place to go, and a cell phone that was dying, yet he tossed me an extension cord to charge my phone. Why oh why did I go back to him, time and time again after those two situations??? Somehow, I believed allthe lies that he really did love me and somehow it was my fault. I never knew what would trigger his temper and uncontrolled anger. I had never been exposed to it before. I know today, I had been so dependent on him, he took total advantage of it. Thanks to the internet, I got into an apt in 24 hours, close to my new job, and slowly started to buy furniture, and a car. Today I know he is a narcissist, borderline personality disorder, a cheater, a liar. I will never put a man in charge of my happiness, or give over my life. I have to respect myself before I can find someone who will respect me. I have to trust myself. Stay out of the fantasy and stay in reality. I have been doing a lot of journaling, being gentle with myself, but brutally honest. the longer I stayed the more painful it became.Everytime, he decided today he didn’t want to be in the relationship, because maybe today, I talked about my day, and he got jealous, about something I said happened at work. He got jealous my boss gave me a card for my birthday ( my boss is female) Then he would come back and hit the reset button. I began to question my sanity. Everyone here, has been there, so i know i’m not alone and that there are men out there like that. I’m not crazy. Only crazy trying to make something normal that isn’t. Thank you all of you for being here.
Emerldeys,
that man is absolutely appaling and a waste of oxygen on this planet.You have such great attitude.”I will never put a man in charge of my happiness, or give over my life”.And that does NOT equal never trusting a man and never having a mutual relationship. It is a condition FOR having that relationship with someone normal, because he certainly isn`t and you absolutely are, normal and a great person. I did it too, ” trying to make something normal that wasn`t”. Love your post!
Grizelda–your swirly pinwheel eyes is something I think we can all relate to. hahaha,thanks for the humor! I’ve been reading lots of articles about middle aged “hotness delusion syndrome” which many men suffer from. These are also good for a chuckle, but oh so true. Thanks for your support and Im hoping maybe we middle agers can save some of the younger ones heartache and trouble. Keep smilin’!
Indecision is just terrible. It causes so much stress and insecurity. And we are the only ones who can remove it from our lives. But we hope that the next time he blows hot and makes promises, he won’t go back on them and say he’s just not sure again. I found out it was because come the weekend when “he wasn’t sure” about us, it was actually because he wanted to use drugs and did not want to be accountable to me.
Either way, it left me a mess and I have put a stop to the cycle. 8 days no contact but I feel like I want to die.
Scarlet – same here…It took me 4.5 years to realize that in fact I was an option to his pot habit all the time : everything was scheduled around that : rushing dates, feeling sick, being ”blahhhh” and us… always being the ”cheerleaders”, happy and content with a few hors/week and weekend (early/shorts) ”hangouts” AAARRRRGHHHHH !!!!
And don’t make me start on the EUM/financial responsability part…
Scarlet and Espoir,
me too – option to alcohol and every aspect of his life revolving around that. Yes it leaves you in a terrible mess. Addictions are a red flag, no go, abort mission. I think it`s so simple and self-explanatory now but I felt tortured just like you Scarlet. Keep strong, there is no other way.
Scarlet,
I know how it feels. It took me months to start feeling better. But you won’t die from the grief. You might have died a slow death if you’d stayed with the AC. They can do major devastation to a person, destroying your self-esteem for a life time. The longer you attach to this toxic sort, the more dangerous it becomes.
We have to take these ACs very seriously. They are not to be toyed with. We have to exit the relationship and commit to doing daily healing.
You’ll do it because deep down you know you deserve better.
Scarlet, a wise teacher once said “don’t get rid of the pain until you’ve learned its lessons.” Pain and grief can be a great teacher, and if you can learn to see it as this, it DOES lessen the intensity. Some people along the wisdom journey actually learn to welcome their grief (I’m certainly not there yet myself!) – what a mind-boggling thought that such a thing might be possible. In any case, I know and we all know what that ‘wanting to die’ feeling is like. Take care of yourself during this time, only self-love and kindness, no beating yourself up with reproach.
Confused123,
My humble advice is to leave him NOW. He makes you two compete for his attention, not a good sign. At the very least you can get online and start going on other dates. As many as you can get. Do not commit to half exclusivity (your side only) after one month when he says he is dating others. Let him and take care of your romantic life. Take a good good care;) even if you think you are not in the mood to go to another date, force yourself to do it. You may discover a lot if interesting things about this indecisive guy and mainly yourself.,also I wouldn’t hesitate to tell him that you’re doing it, but in a light friendly way, with a big smile! You can do it.
Funny enough I never had to listen to this indecisive tune with my ex. Every time I had a lightest doubt and asked him he said things were great and he really really liked me. he would list my great qualitis ( and be right btw) and I’d think – wow, he understands and cherishes me. He would explain every twist in his mood or behavior blaming it on his own stuff. Not that I asked much, hate to interrogate anyway. My doubts I would put aside thinking – it’s his uniqueness, he is geniously smart and also diagnosed with some maniacal behavior, taking medication, I have to be sympathetic. So I was! Until the day he disappeared;))
A lot of your stuff resonates, but this is by far the post that best describes my ex and our relationship.
However, the questions that still haunt me are:
-”how the hell did it happen” and
-”how/why was I so clueless”.
Thanks NML. I’m add it to the posts I re-read from time to time.
Runnergirl, Grizelda, Dancing queen, Learner, Yoghurt, I would love to come and give you all a great big hug. I’m tearful right now because of all the amazing support and kindness. It is in such stark contrast to his treatment of me and I’m truly grateful. You have all helped me grow stronger and get through this. I love reading all of your posts, runner you inspire me that there will be a time in the (distant) future when I may, dare I say it, date again. NOT on the top of my list of priorities right now of course, but by then I will have regained my self-esteem and be armed with a set of tools allowing me to spot an AC and deal with him accordingly! DQ, great advice and I agree, who cares who he really was. I’ll leave him to it because I’m out of there. I hope your thesis is coming along well. Grizelda, what can I say. Your posts are inspiring. I see so much of my own experience in what you write. I also see you as a strong woman and I swear after reading your posts I feel myself plumping up and growing stronger. Yoghurt you are another wonderful, strong woman. I’ve been following your posts from the beginning and always look forward to reading them. Give your little one a hug from me. Learner – my wonderful NC sister. I feel a special connection to you and your experience. You deserve all the happiness that is coming your way. Thank you ladies, thank you Natalie and, to everyone who ever responded to me. You’re all amazing. And to all those in pain right now keep reading and learning because there WILL come a time when it all starts falling into place.
Sushi, thank you for your support. My adult kids would kill me if they knew I had continued this relationship with this man. they all thought he was the scum of the earth, because my daughter long distance helped find me an apt on her internet. I cried when I sat and told my story as to why I needed an apt in 24 hours, because I had no place to stay and a job to start on Monday and it’s Saturday. I have guardian angels everywhere. I was so isolated and believe that is why I stayed in this sick relationship as long as I did. So many shaming and embarassing things have happened. But it has been a journey of the denial slowly dissolving, and there was no longer any kind of emotional payoff being with this person. I have no interest today in dating, but I know in time that will come back. Right now I need to take care of myself, and re establish trust in myself and forgive myself for staying so long, and grieve the loss of my dog a week ago ( he fed her a bone, that I wasn’t aware of, she went into acute pancreatitis, became septic and died, within 24 hours) And he got mad at me and told me to leave because I put on a robe, because I got a cold chill over me, I was beside myself in shock and grief after telling the veterarian to put her down, not to let her suffer. He was mad because I didn’t ask him to hold me because I was cold. I think I was in shock. I left, and went to the emergency clinic where my dog was. It was three am. Very very sick behavior and a very sick man. Funny thing, I’m sure he is with someone else right now. He had an ex wife in the wings all the time, that he would throw in my face, when ever I would stand up for myself. Ya know, she can have him. The spell has been broken.His gravy train has left the station.
Emereldeyez,
I am so SO sorry about your dog. That man is horrible, evil, just….please please take care of yourself.
I can imagine how much it hurts, to have lost your beloved pet. Now he is okay though and not in pain. He knew that you loved him I am sure. Please take care of yourself and know that we are all here for you. ((hughs))
I can’t believe how strong you must have been to endure all this pain. You are special if you have angels looking out for you in your darkest hours.
I’m sorry for the loss of your dog. This man is a sick man for adding pain upon your grief.
I know from experience how easy it is for some people to abuse you and hurt you while you’re at your lowest.
I think being numbed to the shock is a defense mechanism, so that you put your energy where it’s most needed. In this case, accompanying your dog on its journey.
You can only take care of one thing at a time, and sometimes, that’s why you don’t immediately react to the abuse.
I hope your new life is going gloriously. How strong of you to even have the strength to keep that job and go to work on that Monday. You sure are a trouper and an inspiration.
Emeraldeyez,
I’m so sorry about your dog. I know that’s really hard. I lost my 19 year old kitty a couple months ago, and I cried for days. I still miss him terribly. It’s such a shock when we lose them. Sending you (((hugs))) and strength during your sorrow.
Emerldeyez,
I`m really sorry about your dog. Don`t beat yourself up about any of this, it`s in the past and the rest is not important. When you with these abusive, narcisstic people you lose yourself, they make you feel like it`s you who is going crazy, it`s a terrible ride.People stay in abusive relationships for decades, you got out. Take care.
Emerldeyez,
Wait – so this man was responsible for the death of your dog, and then got mad at you for putting on a robe? Instead of asking *him* to hold you? WTH?
I am sorry but this made me feel so sad for you. You lost your beloved pet, and then had to deal with his pouting for not making *him* the centre of the universe? I agree with you – let his exwife keep him. You deserve so much better. Hugs xo
Emerldeyez, I´m so sorry for your loss!
It always tears me apart when I lose a pet. Take good care of yourself, big hug to you.
Natalie et al,
I had an ephphany of sorts in the shower, regarding this whole tolerating/propagating indecision thing. Here it is:
When I was a child, my father once told me I was his “favourite” of his 3 children. It felt a bit uncomfortable, but part of me liked the idea. I tried to live up to his special approval. Later on, my sister (7 years younger) seemed to usurp me as “Daddy’s favourite” – actually, she seemed to be the favourite of *both* parents. I could understand – she was so cute, lovely personality.
Of course, this new favoritism bothered me, and I think it sent me into a tizzy trying to regain my spot in my parents’ hearts. I became an over-achieving workaholic, since I could never achieve my sister’s “cuteness factor”.
Fast forward a few decades, and here I am in a similar place with the exMM. I wanted to be *his* favourite, too. The one he truly loved, the one who loved *him* more than anyone else before. His flip-flapping and fence-sitting, and insistence that he “cannot predict the future” should have been recognized as red flags and deal-breakers. But I couldn’t see that at the time.
I have been trying to figure out why *any* of us may be so tolerant of this indecision in these partners.I knew my childhood affected my self-esteem, I knew my father’s alcohol abuse made me feel “at home” with dysfunctional relationships, but now I think I have discovered something else that may have led to me sitting on the fence with the exMM.
Does this make sense?
“epiphany” not “ephphany” sorry, typo
Learner, yes that does make absolute sense.
I guess we get into these dysfunctional relationships as a result of some poor parenting attitudes by our parents, I know I did. With my latest EUM I finally understood that his pull on me was that he made me feel just like my father did – emotionally and physically abandoned, ignored, being lied to, having to compete for his attention.
It is a very good thing that you had this realisation, now you can begin to heal and make real changes in your life.
Lilia,
Yes, thanks, it’s amazing how these revelations and insights can suddenly hit you, isn’t it? The pieces are all coming together to make sense for me. I think I may have been raised by a narc dad, now that so many have mentioned their characterisitcs. maybe the ex is a narc, too, I don’t know.You are right – time to heal and make changes that are beneficial, and don’t lead to feeling badly again!
Learner,
“I have been trying to figure out why *any* of us may be so tolerant of this indecision in these partners”.
I think you’re onto something here. Your tolerance of his indecisiveness may well, as you say, be related to your childhood need to once again be ‘the favourite’, not to be pushed aside in favour of someone else. You may have tolerated his indecisiveness in order to avoid the feeling of being rejected again. Maybe tolerating indecisiveness and not setting boundaries acts as a sort of defense mechanism,e.g.if I don’t push him to make a decision then he won’t leave and I’ll avoid more pain.
I applied your question to my own situation. I tolerated his indecisiveness because I was afraid he would just pack up and leave if I voiced my true thoughts. I was already hurting, but I was trying to avoid more pain so did nothing much to resist and didn’t set appropriate boundaries. I believe this was related to my father’s abandonment of me as a child which was deeply wounding. For some reason the exMM triggered my childhood injury (probably not hard to work out given he was in a position of ‘authority’ overseeing my work)and I believe all my old fears came to the surface so setting aside any resistance meant he wouldn’t ‘abandon’ me. Less resistance equals less pain.
But what is it that actually hurts? What is this pain that I’ve been trying to avoid? I think it was a feeling of being ‘less than’ or worthless even – the childhood logic that I wasn’t good enough that’s why my father left. If I feel worthless then I can easily justify not resisting bad behaviour (like stringing someone along and sitting on the fence). Behaviour that clearly degrades our value. In other words, I tolerated his indecisiveness (or tolerated my own lack of resistance) because I didn’t believe I deserved better.
I’m rambling a bit and this may not be very clear, but it seems to me that the next step out of all this is to tackle those feeling of unworthiness. I will start by refusing to listen to those self-depreciating thoughts. I want to stop living in fear that I’m not worthy of love and respect. The most awful part of all this is that I carried this feeling over to my little one. This makes me angry, how dare he behave as if my child was not worthy of love, but then again I need to stop acting like we’re not worthy of love. I think I’ve already started, but I have a lot of work to do! Learner, great question you’ve really got me thinking.
I think I tolerated the indecision and poor treatment because I am terrified that if he goes, so too does the hope that I will have someone to share my future with. Someone to plan weekends and holidays and not face the terror of being alone forever. I am so scared that I will never meet a man who I can have a healthy relationship with.
Scarlet, seriously? You are able to make future plans with this guy and you can count on him to support you, to encourage you, to be the one you turn to in the storm? I think you are kidding yourself. Why are you so afraid of being “alone.” It sounds like you were very alone in this relationship. Find some positive older role models who live alone and have full and meaningful lives. Hopefully that will take some of the fear away.
Lilly,
yes, I agree with all you have said!
“You may have tolerated his indecisiveness in order to avoid the feeling of being rejected again.” Yes, that’s so true!
“I tolerated his indecisiveness because I was afraid he would just pack up and leave if I voiced my true thoughts” – yes, this makes sense that you would think this.
Those feelings of being unworthy, of being afraid of rejection, fear of reliving the negative feelings that our fathers created in us as young children. yes, yes. I still feel so badly about your dad leaving your family while you were so young. I love your idea of refusing to listen to self-depricating thoughts.
You are worthy of being loved.
I am worthy of being loved.
We are not “less than”
We do not need a disordered man, or anyone for that matter, to decide our value.
Your baby is worthy of love, and of being remembered lovingly.
We may have a lot of work to do, but the great thing is, the work has begun!
Thanks Lilly, I am smiling now. We are going to be OK!