Over the past few years, I’ve gone to great lengths to explain the importance of boundaries, something that all people who have low self-esteem and who put up with inappropriate or downright shady behaviour have little or none of. Boundaries are basically your limits and also act as your personal electric fence alerting you to the fact that you’re uncomfortable or even in danger. They also communicate to others not only how they can treat you and what to expect from you, but also what they’re likely to get away with.
It’s as I talked about a few weeks back in my Broken Windows post – let certain things slide by and it becomes a green light for them to bust up your boundaries even further. They realise that something isn’t right and that you may not like and love yourself enough otherwise you wouldn’t be giving them the time of day let alone the steam off your tea.
Here’s the thing: Boundaries aren’t complicated – it’s the fear of having and enforcing them that people use to complicate them. They’re natural to many people and a necessary part of life and yet when people become au fait with the existence and necessities of boundaries, it then becomes “So how can I communicate my boundaries? What can I say? How do I make them respect my boundaries?”
This is where I have to lay it down in simple terms – Stop the frickin’ talking!
Questions like these are asked because:
1) They want to communicate the boundaries to someone that doesn’t respect boundaries. Pointless.
2) They don’t want to do anything they just want say something. Also pointless.
3) They want to ‘make’ people respect boundaries and they’re likely to be the types of people that they’d want to make love them and make them see their point of view. Pointless – it’s like throwing your energy into the abyss or peeing into the wind.
Particularly for women, who often suffer with Women Who Talk and Think Too Much syndrome, you’ve got to stop the explaining, justifying and talking the nth degree out of your boundaries because if they’re really your boundaries, you wouldn’t be there or you’d be doing something.
You know what talking, explaining and justifying the existence of things that people with even a moderate level of self-esteem says?
“My boundaries are up for negotiation. In fact, they’re not really my boundaries and I’m not entirely sure I believe in them. I just want you to see my point of view, to change, to make me the exception. Don’t leave me.”
One of the challenges some people set themselves up for after recognising that they’ve been in an unhealthy relationship, often with code amber and red behaviours waving in their face, is to try to apply their new found knowledge with the same types of people or even with an old partner, which kinda defeats the purpose.
I’m going to be honest with you – unless you’re going out with someone under the age of seven, which would be illegal, whoever you’re involved with knows the difference between right and wrong. Unless they are a teenager, it’s unlikely that you are their first relationship or the first person that has ever pointed out their shortcomings or even their complete and utter level of assholery.
They haven’t just fallen out of the sky. They don’t need the ‘right’ person to show them the light – you’re not God or a higher power.
You don’t need to explain or justify your boundaries or try to guide anyone to light of your bountiful knowledge. You’ve got to stop carrying on like one of those bonkers ministers that lays their hands on a member of the congregation in a wheelchair, starts talking in mumbo jumbo, shouting and throwing themselves on the floor, only for the person to stand up and say “HAVE MERCY! I CAN WALK!”
That’s what all this talking to the nth degree, Powerpoint presentations, manuals, trying a different tack, taking them back and assuming they’ve changed and basically being ever accommodating and trying to take the path of least resistance with your ‘type’ that represents your unhealthy beliefs is:
You expect them to fall at your feet (eventually) and wail “I CAN LOVE! MY HEART IS OPEN! I’M UNAVAILABLE/AN ASSCLOWN NO MORE!” They’re just not that special, you’re not that desperate, and you’re not so special that you have the powers to fix/heal/help people out of being themselves.
People only explain and keep on explaining or even justifying boundaries that they don’t believe in. It is time to start believing in what you already know – relationship insanity and the fact that certain types of behaviours and relationships don’t work for anyone.
When you do try making a case for why they shouldn’t be doing something and why you shouldn’t be putting up with it and pacing your relationship courtroom laying out your argument, all someone that would show up to a relationship with shady carry-on does is deny it, claim their version of things is correct, or even make out like you’re the one with the problem.
Stop asking for the person that crossed or even busted your boundaries in the first place to validate your observation! It’s like being sexually harassed by a manager and then filing a complaint about them with them.
There’s no point in recognising that you need to have boundaries if you don’t apply them. There is a reason why there are code amber and code red behaviours – one is stop, look, listen, and if comfortable, proceed with caution and the other is abort mission.
If you struggle with boundaries, when you get a code amber, you ignore the information or have a half hearted conversation and proceed anyway even if you’re not comfortable. When you get code red, you try to convince and change them because you don’t trust your judgement, possibly because you’re scared that if you do, in two shakes of a lambs tail, they’ll turn into Mr/Miss Perfect with someone else. You don’t want to try again – you want this one to be it.
You know what people who have boundaries do when they experience something that they know is a no-go for a healthy, mutual relationship? They walk. They don’t Bet On Potential, deny, rationalise and minimise. They recognise that that they deserve better than selling themselves short.
Know and show your limits and if you haven’t got limits, get some. The idea of knowing these limits isn’t for you to bounce them in the hope that they’ll chase after you and make promises that they can’t keep. You should be bouncing them because you have no room for certain types of behaviour or for feeling bad about yourself.
Stop talking. They don’t need a lecture on the error of their ways or an attempt to make them feel bad about something they’re entirely comfortable with being and doing, even if in your eyes, you think it’s outrageous and ‘needs’ to change – you need it to change; they don’t.
Your thoughts?
Check out my ebooks the No Contact Rule and Mr Unavailable & The Fallback Girl and more in my bookshop.
About the Author:
Natalie Lue is the founder and writer of Baggage Reclaim and author of the books Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl, The Dreamer and the Fantasy Relationship and more. Learn more about her here and you can also follow her on Facebook and Twitter - @baggagereclaim .
Natalie (NML) – who has written 1082 posts on Baggage Reclaim by Natalie Lue.
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I’ve spent a lot of time wondering if I’m now going too far in the opposite direction- over enforcing my boundaries. I’ve been doing online dating. It’s not ideal, but I live in a rural area, and as a professor/teacher that lives with her parents right now (due to lack of funds), I have a real hard time meeting men.
After a bunch of assclowns and emotionally unavailable guys, I have a clearer idea of what I don’t want. This site, some therapy, a long with a ton of very bad online dates, has been very helpful.
For me, after I exchange a few emails with someone new on the online sites, is it too much to want to talk on the phone a bit, then make a plan to meet up a couple of days in advance for some type of date?
Many guys want to text to get to know me, which I’m not a fan of, as I agree with Natalie, it’s really lazy and leads to many miscommunications. They also want to text me that night for a date. That’s hard for me to do, as I live really far away and get up early to teach.
Some friends this weekend suggested that maybe talking on the phone (so I could suss them out) was old fashioned and that my boundaries were too high. Now I’m questioning myself, especially after not having any boundaries before.
Any advice?
Judy,
Have you read Natalie’s excellent post on “Crumb Communications” and all the comments? I’m thinking you may find the answer to your questions. I certainly did and then experienced the crummiest of text communications. I’m a firm believer in Natalie’s advice: If they don’t have time to call, they don’t have time for a relationship. I’m assuming you are interested in a relationship? A phone call doesn’t seem to me to be too stringent a boundary. “They also want to text me that night for a date.” In my new Book-o-Boundaries, that could be a red flag, booty call.
Nah, go with your idea. I’ve done online dating and the guys that are really serious about you will respect the phone thing and not insist on texting, etc. Also, no IMing (instant messaging). I found I wasted a lot of time initially with men who texted and IMed and then didn’t bother showing up for a real date. Real men who want real relationships aren’t scared of hearing a real voice on the phone.
Could be an age thing too as I’m in my 40′s.
Judy : i think you are perfectly sensible and reasonable here. Long ago….(pre mobile phones – texting and emailing), if you met a guy, say on a night out, he asks for your number ,calls you and arranges a date usually in the same week and it was that simple. Sure, there were times the guy didn’t show but at least you know early on in the game that he was a non runner!
I think texting is like a Godsend to the emotionally unavailables and assclowns – they can play with you for a length of time and get their ego stroked, while having no actual intention of meeting up with you and/or wanting a proper relationship.
If a guy is genuinely interested and has a backbone, he will pick up the phone, have a chat and then suggest meeting up and you’re on your way.
I dont think you can get to know someone through texting – to me it’s too illusional and its not real communication. And Nat is so right, any guy that relies predominantly on texting is showing a red flag.
A friend of mine was into online dating – she would be hearing from a guy,say for a few weeks and then there would be nothing – the communication would just stop and there would be no talk of actually meeting up.
You know, i think these eums have more of a relationship with their mobile phones than they do with the women they’re communicating with. This texting malarky is a real bug bear of mine.
Judy
I loathe going out at short notice, even with my female friends. I’ve told them loud and clear, and countless times that I went at least 24 hours notice, preferably 48. They often give me two weeks.
I enjoy the anticipation and deciding what to wear. I want to know that my hair has been washed. I need to do laundry and get groceries in! Maybe have an early night.
IME men who text you on the day are looking for a booty call. They can’t be bothered with wining and dining. They just want to drop round for YOU to feed them and sex them. Rude. Don’t do it. Tell them you’re busy and can’t fit people in on short notice. If they can’t respect that, move on.
With clients, with your boss, with the dentist, the doctor and the candlestick maker, it’s perfectly normal to give people a bit of notice. He expects you to make an exception because he thinks you’ve nothing better to do than wait for him to turn up. He must be joking!
Upholding boundaries will save you time in the long run. Having no boundaries and getting mixed up in men who are unreliable is an extreme waste of time. Better to have good quality control upfront and sift through maybe dozens of men in one month than be clearing up one unholy mess from here to eternity.
my flatmate fresh from hoilday is going to dinner with my ex Ac as they are best friends. He then hinted that he was going to bring the ex over to play video games after dinner. I said in a calm voice “I respect that he is your friend but No, i work between the hours of 9-5:30 Monday to Friday. In those hours you can play video games to your hearts content but the rest of the time he cant come to my house.”
At first i felt guilty but then i thought to myself I don’t want to see this person, I don’t care if i come off as a bitch. I have no intention of nurturing a friendship with my ex AC so that him and everyone else is happy but im miserable. I want nothing to do with him being his friend or allowing him in my small house to play video games will let him think his treatment of me was okay as im willing to be his friend and let him in my house.
I know this is not directly related to the post but I have been a people pleasing door mat ever since my mother spent the majority of my childhood telling me i was selfish whenever i didn’t do things her way. I just wanted to share this feeling of sheer strength with all of you because before this blog, i would have let that AC come to play video games and possibly even served him tea with a side of my self respect.
@Jane,
I don’t know you, but I am so proud of you! My mother used to tell me the same thing when I was growing up. Now, in her old age, she depends on me to put up boundaries with other people on her behalf. The hypocrite.
@Jane – Good girl! It is so hard to change those patterns, isn’t it? I’m proud of you, too!
Major applause for you Jane!! You go girl!
@Jane – Woot! Way to go … I’m proud of you too
Judy, your boundaries and standards are reasonable in my opinion. Expecting any less, is on the brink of disaster. I would never except a last minute phone call asking me to meet up from a stranger unless they were a close friend of mine, let alone a text to meetup. The people that cant plan ahead, put effort into calling you are not taking dating seriously, I personally rather be alone snd content than accept crumbs like that. I can see why you are questioning yourself… But the men worth your time will share your values.
Jane way to go. I know myself how difficult it is to set boundaries when you’ve been conditioned to ‘suck it up’ so that everyone else can be happy.
NK my prayers go out to you all in London.
What a timely post. I was thinking about telling a colleague about how her behavior was negatively affecting me for several days. Then i realized that I can just ignore her. She is a narcissist, brags about herself, turns all conversations around to herself. She is intolerant of any criticism or feedback and gets defensive, angry and blames the person for daring to suggest that she may not be perfect/know everything. Of course this is all coming from a fragile ego, a truly confident person can handle constructive criticism. So all these thoughts have been ruminating within me and I’ve been wanting to tell her how I feel, etc.
I am not responsible for educating her, saving her, telling her how she invades my boundaries. I will simply ignore her. I don’t have the energy to deal with her personality disorder. I have enough of these in my family!
I thought I needed to spell things out for her. But I realize that she does this to a lot of people and that it won’t take me explaining it to get her to change. Hmmm, my father is also a narcissist and basically destroyed our family. That is why I took her behaviour personally – it was Daddy again using me to puff himself up. We cannot control people and the choices they make.
I feel like a big burden has been lifted from me. Just by writing this post, I realized the link between her and my father was narcissim. OMG. This blog is like a free therapy session. Thank you!
@Cinderella Indeed I think boundaries act as a natural filter which is why they can be so effortless when embraced.
@Janis And that’s when you recognise the futility and get off the merry-go-round.
@Cinnamon Indeed the only right way to communicate boundaries to someone that’s crossing them is to walk – that’s what gets them to stop because you’re not around to experience it anymore.
@Natasha Gosh he really is a prize…NOT! Glad you flushed!
@Carrie Just go out and live your life – life is full of boundaries even when we don’t realise it. But yes – go out and form new friendships.
@Jane The last line is brilliant – we have to be relieved to call them exe’s – it’s a sign we’ve seen sense.
@MaryC They’re like Barbie dolls – there’s millions of them.
@Runnergirl Yeah you do have to admire his honesty. Sort of. Shameless is what I’d call him but the key as you discovered is to go in the opposite direction. As this site can attest to, many women would have hung around pretending they’d misheard or thinking they could change him.
@Magdalena No it certainly isn’t!
@Gina Exactly and enforcing the boundaries removes any sense of inadequacy from you. They eventually learn that while there are people that will put up with their crappy behaviour – there are others that won’t. He’ll have to respect you from afar.
@Lanasia I will!
@Lea Exactly. So many keep thinking that this ONE time, they’ll finally get it. Next thing they’ve done it 200 times! Flush!
@Karina Family can often be the worst teachers of boundaries and I speak from personal experience. I have learned that distancing yourself and nipping situations in the bud is very freeing – they eventual get the message and have to adjust.
@CC “I want you to come complete” – Amen.
@Nat Long distance for 8 years? Volatile from the beginning? FLUSH!
@Gab There’s a world full of unhappy, unavailable people who were brought up in homes where their parents stayed together to keep up a semblance of family. If you stay, stay for the right reasons because one person can’t do all the ‘work’ in the relationship. He can still be a father without you being together. Much as I spent most of my life chasing my father in unavailable men, him and my mother staying together would have been far more disastrous.
@MissE trying to stick with it out of fear of starting over is a bit like throwing a dart, it landing on the guy and saying “Right, you’re it.” You’re not that desperate!
@riotgirl Feeling second rate around your boyfriend wouldn’t be high up on my list of things to feel in a relationship. Actions speak louder than words and he treated you differently to the point of you being compelled to ask him about it. You’re not overreacting.
@J “surely he wouldn’t want to be a person of poor character!” And that’s where we have to step outside of ourselves and recognise that if we view someone in that light, we shouldn’t be with them.
@I Get It Unfortunately you’ll find that when you’re under his roof, it’s like being under his jurisdiction because that’s what people like him operate like. I would consider all other options before you continue to stay with him.
@407 Yeah forever can feel scary but if you ever actually want to get on with your life, it’s what it’s got to be. If we end things and don’t have finality, we remain unavailable.
@Debra Gosh what an awful situ to deal with. If you have to force someone to respect you, it’s just never going to feel good. It is incredibly annoying to feel walked over but I find it’s even more annoying to invest in it. Walk!
@Christina I once had a man say something racist about 10 minutes after we met. I made my excuses and left. Fast.
@Josie The key is that you learned. We have to realise the futility of convincing someone to respect us. That’s an oxymoron.
@Rosegirl That guy is a creep. “They should do this without direction or correction” – damn straight!
@AdrinenneByTheSea – The truth is that it’s only us that can end it. I hear you on your experiences. Your parents will always be your parents, guys like him will always be guys like him unless something catastrophic happens, so it’s you that has to shift away from them and adapt your behaviour. The rewards are worth it.
@Grace Totally agree – expectation management is key.
@Donna To be honest, somebody has to end a bad relationship and if you don’t, they will, because they’re doing what you’re not. Your power hasn’t been lost – you have it back now. The relationship is over.
@Minky Yep – the world is not full of clones of ourselves. It’s good to know what we would do but empathy helps you see how others act.
@Jennynic That story is hilarious! You couldn’t make this shit up! Your ex is a real tool.
@Alogon “Isn’t seeing what you already knew but refused to process fun? ” EXACTLY! You already know!
@Sabrina I think the key is that you learn your lesson. I had to do NC with my ex at work and experienced very similar. You end up learning by rote – the fire keeps burning so you stop putting your hand in the fire and believing it’s ‘nice’ and ‘well meaning’.
@Lia “Asking someone to change for you comes from a disrespectful place; it is one person telling another person that they know what’s best for that person. Asking someone to change for you only gives real choice to one person. Boundaries, on the other hand, are all about me and the respect that I have for myself; the respect that is commanded from others who want to be in my life. Even further, I have every right to decide how I want to be treated. And if that’s not something that person is willing or capable of doing, then that person has every right to decide to move right along.” Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant.
@Happy Girl “What a great sense of relief to know I have control.” You most certainly do! And it’s control you’ve always had but you’re finally accessing and applying.
@Gina Exactly and at the end of the day, we’re not responsible for Other People’s Actions.
@Tulipa Please do choose to learn from the experience!
@Bellaninha If there’s one piece of advice I can give you and others who make contact off the back of birthday’s, anniversary’s and world events – be careful of the hidden expectations. While you were voicing concern, you were leveraging an opportunity to make yourself visible and to hopefully arrange to meet up. That said, don’t bust your own balls. You live, you learn, you get back up. You can make this incident have as big or as small an impact as you want.
@Bonnie There’s two words for what he’s doing – mind f*ckery. FLUSH!
@Susie Sunflower Of course there are decent men out there. It would be like saying there’s no decent women out there because they’re ‘all’ chasing unavailables and ACs. Just not the case. AC and EUM are not the same thing. All ACs are unavailable, but not all EUM are ACs. Narcissism is not a term to be used lightly and I would suggest that you focus on being available yourself, working through the loss of your relationship, and getting to a better place than working up a diagnosis on this man.
@Miss EmTee “There’s no need to explain why I walked out” – Hilarious and brilliant.
@Audrey Too right. It’s literally a case of “Oh you’re unavailable are you? See ya!” and….walk.
@AgirlIknow You’re not alone, ironically. Every single person that persists with an unhealthy relationship has inverted ego issues that confuse in the context of poor self-esteem. You want to be the exception to the rule plus you base everything around you but it’s not because you see life through an ‘I’m not good enough lens’ and as a reflection of what you’re lacking. Congrats on Day 11 NC. Stick with it. Your situation isn’t different and you’re not unique and that in itself frees you up to stop making someone else’s problems your own.
@sm 100% correct. It ain’t flattering – it’s boundary busting.
@Oldenoughtoknowbetter Yes! It’s not all about you! That’s the hilarious thing! Brilliant comment. It’s no big deal! You will live after they’re gone.
@Judy Nothing wrong with your expectations. Many people do things differently to these guys. Live by your standards, not by your friends. She can’t decide what your comfort level is.
@Jane Totally did the right thing. He doesn’t need to come to your home!
You’re absolutely right Natalie – I just realized today that I have an opportunity to state a boundary with my therapist. Twice now – in just three sessions – she’s brought up going on an anti-depressant for my anxiety even though I told her the first time I wasn’t interested.. that I’d rather try behavioral and holistic methods first. Then someone on a forum busted on me for not listening to my therapist and that I must not want help. I then of course second guessed myself and started thinking “Well maybe medication would be a good idea” even though I know my issues aren’t extreme enough to warrant it. Then today I came across an article that anti-depressants increase risk of stroke in women and I thought “What AM I thinking? I know I don’t want to use meds as my first choice. Why am I conceding already???” and of course it’s because I don’t hold up my boundaries and when anyone makes me doubt myself, I crumble. So I replied to forum girl and told her that she needed to stop giving me a hard time about not wanting medication and that it’s my choice what goes in my body.. yay me! For someone known for her diplomacy on the board, that’s a new one for me – standing up to someone who is notoriously headstrong. So now I have the chance to do it again when I see my therapist next. I may be ultra anxious when I’m there, but come on it was only my 3rd session and I’m very unsure of myself in therapy… but I’m not always like that. You’d think she’d get that? Maybe it’s a test lol. So I’ll stand up for myself again and tell her if she keeps pushing it, I’ll be happy to find another therapist who has a more holistic approach.
I read this post again this morning. I think I am finally really coming to understand what boundaries actually are. For my whole life, I have tried to make other people responsible for how I feel – I want them to stop hurting me. I put the onus on them to change their behaviors to accommodate my feelings. Boundaries are the way we stop others from hurting us. To stop investing in someone who has proven untrustworthy before it comes to the point where they can hurt you. I have dumped myself without reservation into every relationship, allowed people into my life in any way they wanted to be there and then kept changing and morphing, trying to get them to stay and care about me. Without caring about myself.
Caring about me first and foremost means that someone doesn’t get to come in and hurt me. If I keep giving people the power to hurt me, to effect my life to such an extent I am destroyed, I have no boundaries. The people who have hurt me are those I have NEEDED to behave a certain way so that I can be happy. When they failed to do so, I was unhappy and believed I was unworthy of happiness and love. What I NEED is to stop making others responsible for how I feel or how my life goes. Only I can do that. That, I think, is having boundaries. It is not endlessly explaining to an assclown why he is an assclown and oh…would he please stop being an assclown to protect my feelings. That is relationship insanity.
I think I finally got it.
This sums it all up for me. I am going to print it out and post on my fridge. Thanks Debra!
Just thought I’d share some of my tips for maintaining the no contact rule.
I made a poster like a weekly calandar where after a day of NC I could put a sticker or strike that day off. I made the calandar as uplifting/motivating as possible. I did this for NC and another one for not looking up his twitter/facebook. After a week…reward time.
I used a video camera and made little vlogs and vented every time I felt the urge and when I felt good about my progress. I used a diary before the video camera idea.Great way to vent and get it all out without boring a friend.
Recognise what makes you think of them..I found it was mentioning them to friends, anything romantically themed..music/films, hearing other people talk about their lovely relationships, going on facebook.
I left my mobile in my car at night so I couldn’t call them or left it with my flatmate when urge was very high.
At height of craving… I mentally engaged in something to snap myself out of it…played chess, read, played my guitar etc
Best of luck
Natalie, I just want to thank you so much for the work you do. I am struggling to get out of a marriage and must tread carefully because of a history of abuse. Every day I read something here, I feel stronger and more capable of changing my life. This blog is really a touchstone for me – a place to check in with myself and see my behavior clearly. Hearing the other comments helps immensely as well so thanks for allowing comments so freely.
Hope you and family are well and ok during all the trouble in London.
Rosegirl:
That boy-in-a-man’s-body is a coercive manipulative sadist & rapist. That’s right, RAPIST. If you haven’t already, block him from your life completely & immediately. Wishing you the best.
Thank you.
It’s not been easy coming to terms with this. The support and advice here has been amazing.
@Natalie – Yes indeed! The funniest thing was after he’d got through with blaming me, he started yammering about how he really wanted me in his life as a friend. This would be a case of someone who is both a jackass and most likely too cheap to spring for a therapist
A real positive that came out of this is I really came to appreciate my parents for having their sh*t together – if they didn’t, I could have Florence-d the hell out of that situation!
p.s. I hope the situation in London gets better soon! I was there a few years ago and fell in love with everything about it. Sending everyone there lots of Yankee love!!
@Natalie – Yes indeed! The funniest part was that after he was through blaming everything on me, he started yammering that he wanted me in his life as a friend. This is an example of someone who is both a jackass and most likely too cheap to spring for a therapist
A real positive that came out of this is I really came to appreciate my parents for having their sh*t together – if they didn’t, I could have Florence-d the hell out of that situation.
p.s. I hope the situation in London improves soon! I vistited their a few years ago and fell in love with the city and everything about it. Sending lots of Yankee Love to everyone there!!
Great timing, Nat! The snake is back trying to find a crack in my boundary wall. He’s not taking the hint and won’t leave me be. I finally had to tell him I do not want anything to do with him anymore.
So now he’s playin ‘Oh poor me! I’m devastated!’ and I know eventually he will become angry and try to let me hold it. I guess at least I know the game and can be prepared. Not sure how it finally happened but I just don’t care anymore. He’s exhausting and I’ve been happy without him. Wish me luck fighting for my self esteem! I’ve found it and I don’t want to give it up.
I just remember this on my way back from work.
My ex broke up with me twice and I took him back both times and I am ashamed to say that he didn’t really have to work that hard.
However, one day we were randomly talking and I asked him if he would take me back if I treated him the way he treated me and then dumped him. He said NO WAY.
At the time it made me sad but like most things he did that made me sad I brushed it off and convinced myself it didn’t matter because we were together now.
However now I look back on that relationship and that specific conversation and I realise that there was a lesson in it but it was easier to ignore and make believe I was in a good relationship than face it.
Today while thinking about this article I realised that lesson was:
Those men we are so quick to break down our boundaries for, will have no problem enforcing them with us.
@Jenny, I’ve had those moments reality gets rudely interrupted by good old illusions – don’t worry, it gets less and less as time goes on. Trust me, no one who’s done a magical 180 and is happily getting on with their lives is ambushing their ex in a parking lot. Men like this never want you to finish with them for good, that’s for sure! Mine was very jealous and didn’t want me moving on even though I was on his option list – it’s laughable. I definitely agree that if we pulled a lot of their moves on them, we’d be a Psycho Ex! Oy. You handled that incredibly well and I so enjoyed your description of him doin’ the Peacock! What a tool.
I’m usually awful at boundary setting, but wanted advice to see if I’m doing the right thing here.
I run a project at work, it’s not going that well (some things I could have done better). One new supplier is doing the work for me, and I’m trying to manage their issues back into line, get everything in place (with the help of extra resources and my boss’s back-up).
I have to include another long-term supplier, called “B” on the project (admittedly, I called him in too late with his team). He spent last week making “noises” about how badly the other supplier is doing, and saying how things should be run, and half shaking his head. He’s also telling me how much over-time he thinks he should do (and I run the budgets). I think he’s triggering me as he’s the kind of arrogant man I used to go out with.. but maybe I should avoid mixing personal with work in the way I think.
Tomorrow, ‘B” has to come to a meeting with me to see a showcase of the other supplier’s work. I’m fairly sure, he’ll say how terribly the other supplier is doing, and antagonise their team. However, I’m managing the issues directly with the new supplier’s mgt. B has a lot of experience but he also talks over others and complains as he’d like to speak directly to the other supplier at all times, but this would disrupt their work.
I want to speak to him tomorrow ahead of the meeting and tell him not to openly criticise the other supplier too much, as it won’t help on the project. And that other issues are being dealt with at a higher level but I’d like him to stick to purely work related queries at the meeting, and take-up criticisms with me, which I can then take to the new supplier’s mgt and jump up and down if needs be (though I have no issues with him raising questions at the meeting).
I can’t work out if I’m asking too much as I’m querying my judgement as I know I’ve made mistakes… but feel he is walking all over me. This is a recurring theme for me in all areas.
Regeneration
By all means ask him but don’t be surprised if he doesn’t do it. People very seldom change their working style. They are who they are.
Does it matter if he behaves like a clown? It’s not your fault. I’m sure everyone is a big boy/girl and can handle it. You’ll probably find other people will wade in and help keep him under control. And there’s always someone who dominates a meeting. brings up irrelevant stuff etc. You can’t control it. Worrying about it only affects YOUR performance, not anyone else’s.
Maybe put up a flip chart and write down his “concerns”to address later. When he sees the list growing and growing he might shut up.
thanks Grace, very useful. I’ve been using your advice as my mantra over the last couple of days and it has helped a lot. I realised after reading and actioning what you said that I can’t change anyone else’s behaviour, but I can do my job and look after myself and the project. I was only getting anxious before, so much appreciated.
Natalie,
I was reading this post today as I often find it helps to go back and re-read or read posts that I missed. If I’d had one single boudary in place my EUM “relationship” would never have gotten off the ground! What’s done is done. No ruminating! No woulda coulda shoulda.
I have tried to get my first younger sister introduced to BR and I was also looking for posts that I think would help her see the light. This one theoritcally should. Brief background: She has been living with her partner for oh…13/14 years – took up with him too fast after her marrigae broke up. He’s a drinker. He goes to work and goes to the pub. Full stop. He earns double her salary. He pays the mortgage. She pays for everything else. He thinks cos he pays the mortgage it’s his house – that type of guy. Asshole. Nice at times – but asshole. Mr Nice guy in the pub. Mr Shit at home.Controlling, Chips at her self-eseem. Her self-esteem is very low. She has no boudaries.Her drinking is now out of control as well. She admits this. Her daughter is 19yrs – is miserable at home now and complains to me about my sister’s drinking… you know the deal.
Thing is – when I point my sis to BR she has a look but says that it’s for people who are dating etc. not for people like her who are living with a husband/partner and who are financially dependent. I think she does want out of the relationship and would maybe get out with help but she just keeps saying that she couldn’t sell the house (and in this climate it would be hard)… she’d have no-where to go… she can’t afford to walk… she couldn’t afford to put her daughter through Uni… it’s all about the “practical” excuses. She says it was easy for me to leave the EUM cos I wasn’t “tied in”; I was “independent”… it’s a lifestyle thing for her – even though she is miserable and I am worried as I see it getting much much worse – she is a shadow of the person she could be and once was. Can I ask you to think about a post that focuses on those who are tied up with a long-term partner in their capital and finances and who don’t have great salaries – I want her to see that BR also applies to her!
Ok, I figured out my problem w men. (you’re thinking “duh, anyone can see it.”) I don’t respect my own boundaries. I let men cross them & become indignant & try to get them to see the error of their ways – as if THAT is gonna change their assclownery.
In the bottom link, titled “Stop Explaining…” OMG! This is me. I know. I say that about every one of Natalie’s blogs. But, this one really sums it up. I actually think I can talk, argue, cajole a handsome assclown into being a suitable partner. And, somehow I end of rejecting MYSELF by going back for more abuse. I convince myself that if this assclown is still treating me like shit after I just spelled out why he is disrespecting me than there must actually be something wrong with me.
Wow. Breakthrough time.
Sent from my iPhone
I actually think I am ready to change that behavior! No more convincing an assclown that I am lovable & worthy of respect. I already know this & if he can’t see that – F him. Natalie, I owe you a bottle of champagne. This is a cork popping moment. Doormat, no more! Love you! Xoxo, TNG
Hello,
I find this one the most challenging for me….the stop talking part. I pretty much do everything Natalie wrote not to do, talk about my boundaries instead of acting on them, thinking i’m giving the guy a chance to redeem himself, because surely that’s what he wants to do, he doesn;t want to lose me! Not so, i did the break up with a guy with so many issues happening, messy divorce, finances in shambles, bad sex, selfish etc. etc. I told him how he should be handling his life, his finances, what a joke. Of course, he’s not going to change. In fact, i broke up with him, then wanted to go back and he decided he wanted to be friends only, and of course that is too hard for me as I have too many feelings. The final straw for me, or the final words i needed to hear was that he wasn;t in love with me, and then i thought ok, if after a year you are not into me, why would you be after the divorce. So, I needed to hear him tell me that to set my boundary of NC. It’s not easy, but i feel so much clearer after he admited to not loving me. I thought he did love me but was afraid to say. What a shock to hear the opposite. But, it also showed me the insanity of talking your boundaries instead of acting on them. I should have gotten out of this one right from the beginninig, all the signs were there. I was too needy, too desperate to walk. I’m hoping now I will stick to this decision, which I initially made and he forced me to carry it out. How do we stop the talking, the trying to fix and correct. It has never never worked for me, yet i keep doing it. If I like someone, especially if I’ve slept with him, it’s so hard to just leave when I probably should. How many chances should a guy get? I feel like signing off Ms Illusion
This is exactly what I needed right now! I have just found your blog and I am addicted! Thank you! I know we should *know* these things, but for some reason, we don’t.
I’m going to stop talking…move on, move up, and get myself together!