As I continue making peace with my past and recognising younger parts of me that still hurt and remember, I am committed to being self-compassionate and learning from when I’m not. I’m also committed to not letting my past and those in it, rob me of my present and my peace. I’m in command of me now, and I can’t give away my chance at life and my journey because it didn’t start out as I would have liked and the pain. In the end, much as I could hold certain things front and centre in my heart and mind, and even try to make, for instance, my parents ‘make up’ for everything, it’s me who will feel my commitment to the past and the pain the most.
Forgiveness doesn’t mean that you’re saying that the other person is “right” or that what they did is/was “OK”. Forgiveness is about choosing (and re-choosing) to let go so that you don’t get stuck living in the past.
You forgive, not to anoint the other party with something but to release you to move on and evolve beyond it.
Big blocks around forgiveness are fear of condoning, that we’re giving them or the universe the blueprints to screw us over, or that we look “weak”. We also fear being vulnerable by putting ourselves out there again and putting ourselves back together. It’s like, What if I forgive and then I try again at life and get screwed over? What if they think that they’ve gotten away with it?
It’s about getting into the present because when you’re actively or passively holding on, you’re not letting go. You might be trying to right the wrongs of the past in some way. Or, maybe you’re ‘dining’ what may be every single day on the anger and other emotions. You may keep rubbing your face in where you feel that you’ve erred. Or you might rub your face in the other person’s behaviour while blaming you for it too.
You forgiving doesn’t mean, I’m right, they’re wrong. Or, I’m wrong, they’re right.
It’s about deciding to be done.
Part of our reluctance to let go and forgive is about our relationship with ourselves. Not the outer one that we project but the inner one driven by our thought and feelings ‘conversations’. It’s what goes on behind closed doors.
Many of us are attached to the narrative, to the ‘reasoning habits’ (beliefs). It often feels easier to keep telling the stories while berating us in the process. Or to almost feel righteous about how wrong the other person is. We forget that we’re not fully occupying our actual lives. The story of our lives continue but are, until we decide to let go, becoming a story about us telling a story.
If you’ve struggled with deciding to be done, where are you judging you in some way?
Are you reluctant to let go of the security blanket of the story and your position? You might feel righteous or consumed by the injustice of it all.
Where are you reluctant to trust you and move on?
Where are you holding onto a ‘child role’ and avoiding responsibility?
Something really pissed me off a few weeks back — bloody family smoking too much It’s December Crack. It brought up some old stuff for me that caught me off guard. Note: we can fall into the trap of not acknowledging the usefulness of discovering that we can be triggered by something. They’re opportunities to take the sting out of past (and present) events so that we can reframe the story and move forward.
Anyway, I saw my kinesiologist the following day. She was so empathetic and supportive but also said, “Take responsibility”. I knew immediately what she meant: not taking responsibility for other people’s behaviour or even their feelings but taking responsibility for how I was feeling and what part I was playing in that. In my anger, which I had every right to feel, my inner critic and ego took over, and without realising it, I was giving me a hard time for being “too nice”. In my criticism of the person and raking over events in my mind, I’d fallen into self-criticism.
Remember, we don’t deserve to, for instance, be mistreated or for something that we dislike to happen. However, just because we’ve been mistreated or something unwanted happened, we don’t need to search out a reason for us to deserve it. It happened. We are not Jedis or master puppeteers!
If you don’t, not just let go, but also acknowledge where that experience has influenced your thinking and attitude towards you, life and any parties involved, you will not be self-aware about any reasoning and subsequent judgements.
You won’t be aware of where you’ve subconsciously made a decision to never ______ again or to always ______, or to only ______ in future.
You won’t recognise where you’re trying to essentially prove and re-prove negative ‘teachings’ from the experience. There will be a hardening-up, and you won’t notice where you lack self-compassion.
The ‘cost’ of forgiving, as in choosing to let go and stepping away from making it the main storyline or the underlying theme in your life, is far less than not doing so.When we choose and keep re-choosing to let go, we release ourselves from self-persecution.
We release ourselves from regret that we can’t turn back time that is already moving on. There’s no more trying to right the wrongs of the past with the person involved or similar. We’re liberated from the need to know that they have suffered sufficiently under our watch (or via confirmation from others). There’s no more waiting for the perfect conditions to give ourselves permission to move on and stop obsessing. Bye-bye to trying to influence and control the other person’s thinking and behaviour with our pleasing/lack of forgiveness.
Not letting go has a very high emotional cost which can and will affect the emotional, mental, spiritual, social and even financial areas of our life.
Forgiveness, so deciding to let go, is a commitment. You make it without knowing exactly what’s going to happen in the future but choose to do it anyway. It’s consciously deciding where you are going to invest your energies. You don’t need to, for instance, know that the person will come slinking back or that they will experience karma. Nor do you need to know that your life will be without a hitch or a glitch. You just need to know that you’re ready to be done and to step into your future.
Your thoughts?
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I love this post. It’s so applicable to so much in life.
I’m having a hard time with family this week and this post reminded me to forgive myself. Forgive the little girl inside of me for thinking it’s all down to me. That’s big headed right?! It’s NOT all down to me. That is liberating and surprising how I’d deceived myself all these years. Secretly resenting the family for my less than perfect childhood Whilst punishing myself by not feeling deserving of happiness, independence and security.
Forgiveness is great like that, in forgiving others you forgive yourself. In forgiving yourself you forgive others and as Nat mentions compassion is key.
It’s also a process I’m learning. We have to keep on doing this.
Thank you for putting it so clearly
I want to personally thank you, Natalie for all of your thought provoking posts. Your posts have allowed me to see things from a deeper perspective. Your posts bring forth confirmation and allow me to depict and dissect past and present experiences. Thank you!
I truly understand that forgiveness is an act for myself, but I still have a hard time forgiving the man who walked out of our marriage after 38 years and immediately found himself a new partner. Most of the time I can tell myself that I don’t care, I have forgiven, but then something comes up (like finding out today that he has moved house and didn’t tell me)and all the pain, anger and hurt is back. I have tried hypnosis and meditation and many other techniques, but I guess I’m just going to have to keep working at it.
Why should he’d told you about moving the house? And why do you continue to follow what he’s doing?
Hi Carmen,
I am somewhat in the same position.
I wasn’t married quite as long as you. In fact, I left him after 9 months. My ex was using me for a green card, and would emotionally manipulate me and brainwash me into remaining in the marriage. I finally got out, but then after I left, he moved on to another girl within a few weeks.
I’m sorry this happened to you. I’m in the same boat as you. I tried everything to get over it. I don’t want to care that he has moved on because I have a bright future ahead of me. One of my friends told me that the only thing you can do is go out and embrace life to the fullest and you will be surprised what you will find.
Carmen, I think that you should stop worrying about what he is doing and put the focus back squarely on yourself, on your healing, on your life’s journey.
Being stuck on hurt, on the past, on what some other person who does not deserve you, is like being stuck in quicksand. The sooner you focus on you, the faster you will find a way to pull yourself out of the haze.
Yes relying on external factors ie ex’s for your happiness will inevitably lead to pain because it IS out of your control – they can move, get in new relationships and find what ever new sources they want – you know you are over them when you are happy for them or couldn’t care less – which from some of the descriptions above, some are clearly not and so there is some addressing of needs to be done.
If the ex’s had not moved or entered into new relationships they still would not be in a relationship with you and that is really what is hurting – their actions betray the truth that they are no longer in a relationship with you and free to do as they so wish – as are you! It is painful breaking up with someone that you wanted it to work with – really painful.
To focus on yourself ask yourself some questions about what it is about their particular behaviour that desturbs YOU so much – it should give you some clues as to what they are actually missing/lacking to actually be the partner YOU need in reality.
Forgiving is really really hard because if I forgive them, then I feel like I’ll find it hard not to love them again and their vindictive rejection of me and physical and emotional torchure – which will continue with some of them I know if I let them near me again – is so painful emotionally to me (without any contact with them) I can’t handle it – I feel like I need to be angry at them (which has happened recently after not being able to see they did any wrong for years – when they were and completely blaming myself) in order to be able to pass the blame off me which I held for so long and not feel the full nastiness of what they actually did to me / some are still trying to do.
I can see what Nat is saying – by holding onto the anger/not forgiving – you are in fact holding onto the true anger and fear/not forgiving yourself underneath – which I would really love to kick completely but I feel it is really hard all in one go and I am not sure how you even start to forgive when you still live with the consequences of their actions everyday/ every minute after years of physical and emotional abuse – even though you are away from them and I don’t see most of them. The truth is I do blame myself completely for putting myself in the situation to be abused – even though I see what they did was wrong – I feel responsible in reality for not following my instinct and being nice to them and putting myself in their vacinity and not getting away from them earlier/ working it out quicker.
At the minute I have been using anger/unforgiveness towards them to help make me recognise that it isn’t my fault, however as always with Nat’s posts there is a worm eating away at me, something did happen last week which I immediately interpreted as MY bad pattern/behaviour that put me in danger – which I negatively and seriously berated myself for, for a good 48 hours ie STOPPED MYSELF FROM GIVING LOVING CARE FOR MYSELF / SOME SABOTAGE OF FUTURE PLANS – so maybe their is something in forgiveness?
I can see the philosophical reason for forgiving – just doing it is one step at a time at the minute – am I wrong? Should it be all in one go?
First like the advice I gave above I feel I need to focus on me and moving out of a situation where I feel what they did/would like to do – can still affect me and there is alot to move through in order to get to that point but I am doing it step by step – is that forgivness? I don’t know but I am certainly focusing less on them as a result – until something goes wrong that is.
If you enforce boundaries on someone – is this forgiveness of them?
Oona. Enforcing boundaries is for YOU. It has nothing to do with that other person. They can walk through fire on nails or hit the lottery for a million dollars. You don’t care because you are taking care of you. I do think that you have to reach a point of neutrality, though. Trying to forgive when you remain boiling with anger doesn’t work. It’s a process for YOU alone, no one else and it takes time. Don’t try to rush yourself into feeling any particular way. Strict NC is the best remedy.
Oona, enough with the “should I…”. You don’t need to second guess yourself. Forgiveness is personal to each individual. There is no *planning* with forgiveness, nor does there need to be second guessing analysis or contact with the poerson who has mistreated and/or abused us. Get on with your life and retain your focus. Forgiveness does not mean that you “should” be/feel someone/something you are not… it does not mean you *should* be able to have contact with someone who has hurt you badly and/or not care or feel indifferent.
In my view, if your anger is not ruling your life or destroying you and is in perspective to the damage done to you by the other person and most importantly, that you have forgiven yourself (ie can have compassion and empathy for yourself and treat yourself with love, care , **trust**, and respect) then that is all you need. When you are in that position – which is an actual way of living where you are emotionally available to yourself on a daily basis (this is a way of life – a choice, a respect for yourself) – my view is that you can probably take it that forgiveness has occurred for you. The rest is just semantics. I have read your story and want to tell you that your resilience and strength and availability to yourself are admirable. I hope you are proud of yourself. Go forward in the New Year with trust, care, respect and love Oona. Daily, I endeavour to do the same. xo
p.s. I guess that to me forgiveness is really a giving up on, *resentment* (different from ongoing placement of boundaries, self protection, self-care – these make forgiveness possible if you like) against the other person or people and *ourselves* for an offence. My experience is that much of the time the resentment that sticks (unconsciously) is against ourselves – feeling we cannot get past and forgive (have empathy and compassion) for offending against ourselves (disrespect and mistreatment of ourselves). It’s a vicious circle because if we don’t have some compassion for ourselves this compounds the internal resentment. If we have forgiven we stop wanting to punish ourselves and others. The only person who needs to know they are forgiven is you.
I so totally agree with lizzp. Also, I come from a country where every form of religion was prohibited (there was a dictatorship at the time) and it seems to me that there is a strong cultural-religious element in this forgiveness business that is totally foreign to me. I basically don’t give a fig about this issue, wouldn’t even bother to ask myself the question. So, Oona, go easy on yourself. V.
V, I agree. The term forgiveness does have deeply rooted cultural connotations. Somehow it implies something more than ‘letting go’ and being ‘done with’. However, I think Nat here is pretty much saying it’s the letting go and being done with that is essential – this other quality (?) of forgiveness – something about the forgiven being vindicated/exonerated (?)- maybe relates to something else – to a different context where there are two people (parties) in a space of *mutual* desire to do right by each-other and move forward. Different from one person being stuck weeks, months or years later in their past. But yes, the term can create confusion when being applied in unhealthy relationship dynamic context (this site’s material).
I keep thinking of The Corrs’ (sp?) song “You’re forgiven but not forgotten”. I always interpreted that as meaning that the singer had ‘let go’ (‘had done with’ as Nat puts it above) the past but not in such a way that she has forgotten the lessons learned. She isn’t remembering the person/ex and pining, that would be to hold the “story” “…front and centre in…[her]…heart and mind…” as Nat says. She is simply *not forgetting* the lesson which she carries into into her healthier future. Letting go but not forgetting (the lessons)ensures she will never get back with this ex or get deeply mired with same person different pants in the future.
This relates to where Nat talks about what constitutes letting go (being done with). There isn’t going to be much change without acknowledgement of “where that experience has influenced your thinking and attitude towards you, life and any parties involved”. And without this we won’t be aware of our reasoning and subsequent judgements, these will remain below conscious awareness. We are likely to go on unawares trying to ” essentially prove and re-prove what may be negative ‘teachings’ from the experience”. Especially if we skimp in the compassion dept. for ourselves – and there’ll be no compassion without acknowledgement and an honest conversation with ourselves.
“… – to a different context where there are two people (parties) in a space of *mutual* desire to do right by each-other and move forward…”
Ok, that is reconciliation or similar. This is a common popular misconception. Often confused with forgiveness because reconciling where there has been hurt/damage/offence cannot occur without it. Just as reconciliation (*between two willing parties*) cannot occur without admission of wrong doing, apology and the wronged party feeling safe from repetition of the damaging behaviour in the future. To ‘forgive and forget’ – I can only see as applying where there has been successful reconciliation – out of admission, apology, and some making amends(as such) and forgiveness – leading to a moving forward within a restored relationship. After resolving issues, mistakes, errors within mutual friendships and in mutual co-piloted relationships for eg the forgiver needs to refrain from lording the forgiven’s’ transgression over them – ie ‘forgetting’ is not bringing up the (resolved) past during disagreement, or forcing resolved issue from the past into interfering with the restored relationship.
None of that is applicable to someone we are in NC with and who is out of our lives (abusers, ex EUs, ACs etc.).
I think men have a harder time living on their own. It seems that it’s usually the man who goes out to find a new partner sooner. But I think that if they haven’t “processed” the breakup and their role in it, then they are going to repeat the same issues with their new partner and so the cycle will probably repeat itself. I think it’s healthier to spend time alone healing and understanding before starting a new relationship. Good luck Carmen 🙂
I love this! Totally helpful Nat and a really timely piece. I know the situation I got myself in was equally my fault as it was MM’s. But what is going to make it easier and faster to move on from it is forgiveness, to myself and him. I don’t need to tell him this (trying to stay NC), but I need to recognize that he is just human and dealing with things in his own ways (even if they are AC ways). I am the one who is being burned by my anger.. Like the buddha says about holding a hot coal.
I particularly like the bits here about story telling and ego. I think the stories we tell ourselves are a huge part of the problem in healing. Berating ourselves for our actions, anger over the hurt to our pride and letting go of the story that we thought was developing and accepting the one we are actually living. Telling ourselves a new story and turning it into gold is the best way!
Therein lies our challenge (and my challenge to myself these next couple months). I am not going to roll over and die and let him watch me struggle to move on. I am going to forgive, let go, tell myself the best story of events that I can and try to create a fantastic life!! That’s what it’s all about. Thank you Nat!! And thank you ladies and posters on the site. You guys are awesome! So so glad I found this site. Almost 21 days NC! Woo hoo!
Forgiveness is ESSENTIAL. Absolutely bedrock. It’s as essential as breathing, if you want to live.
Seriously. I have seen lack of forgiveness paralyse various members of my family, and some married couples I know. And I mean paralyse – they are now well into middle age, and this hardness of heart is settling into their very bones. It’s terrifying.
I do not want to go down that track. This has meant big forgiveness on my part, and almost all completely unilateral. You don’t even need to see the person to forgive them; you can just do it in your own heart, but you do need to do it more than once – there is no quick fix.
What I have found helpful is saying the person’s name out loud, ‘——, I forgive you for ——– and ——–‘ or whatever you need to say. I have found the car, driving to work, is a good place to do this, as it’s entirely private.
And forgiveness can work for non-religious people – there’s a whole raft of studies published on entirely non-religious psychotherapy programs that have used forgiveness techniques, and they have much better outcomes, and the outcomes last longer.
I highly, HIGHLY recommend Desmond Tutu’s Forgiveness Challenge. I can’t tell you how much this helped me. His approach to forgiveness is tremendously wise and healing. He has lived this himself and helped an entire country to forgive, and I don’t think anyone else on the planet knows as much about this topic as he does. I urge anyone who is struggling to forgive to check it out.
Ethelreda,
“but you do need to do it more than once – there is no quick fix.” – I agree.
And most importantly, “Forgiveness is ESSENTIAL. Absolutely bedrock. It’s as essential as breathing, if you want to live.”
Forgiveness comes with time. One needs to process all the info first and go through the stages of grieving, at least the initial ones. The remaining, diminishing waves will stay for months or years to come, but the main thing is to overcome the initial surge.
Faith helps. It is not easy. Ever. No. But we keep trying because we know we need to forgive. We have been forgiven. So who we are not to forgive others for their mistakes and screw-ups. I made so many wrongs, even if unintentionally, to people in my life. Big or small. We all have. We are all in this and we are forgiven and so we should forgive too. As many times as needed. I have been forgiving several times throughout this year. Keep forgiving your entire life if you have to. But with practice you will soon realize the person is forgiven just as you have been forgiven yourself.
Thank you, Ethelreda.
PS. Anyone out there who thinks their particular burden is TOO BIG for forgiveness – here’s some of the things I’ve had to forgive:
* childhood sexual abuse
* physical assault
* neglect
* persistent and violent bullying
* degradation and belittling
And that’s just from the first 20 years of my life!
Best of all, forgiveness teaches you also to face up to things that you’ve done wrong to other people, and to take responsibility for that as well.
So if you’ve been the Other Woman, you have genuinely wronged another person, an innocent third party. If you’ve strung someone along, or used someone for a booty call, or a Fallback Guy, you need to face up to your part the unhappiness you caused to others. This hurts, too, but it’s really healing.
E, I am glad you are able to work through any past pains. You are very strong now, keep going and best to you for the New Year.
I’ve learned to forgive but it took forever, and a few times I’ve had to forgive dead people.
I worry though, when it comes to forgiving my ex who broke my heart. I worry that with forgiveness will come compassion, and from there it might be a slippery slope toward getting back together.
Anyone got any advice?
Karen, in your case, you’ve got that very valuable journal full of all the crazy shit that went on with your ex.
You can forgive a person, AND not get back with them. They’re two different processes. However, both processes are about YOU – healing you and making you move forward and into better things.
Forgiveness can and often should be unilateral. In the case of your manipulative and drama queeny ex, you might just have to let a bit more time pass.
One day, you will probably wake up and realise she doesn’t matter a damn to you any more, and then you can say, ‘X, I forgive you’, and then forget she ever existed.
I worried about the same thing, and sometimes my compassion did indeed open a door to communication which led to bad things. But I think you can think of it like you might have compassion for a schizophrenic homeless person you see on the street. You might think, “That poor man.” But that doesn’t mean you have to date him.
Karen, I think you can forgive without wanting to get back with the person. You will just realize that the person is as weak as you are. It doesn’t mean you want them back. It’s more like realizing we are all humans and mess up. You forgive them and let go. You can still love them in a way and be compassionate without wanting to be together. That’s how I have been processing my thoughts and feelings lately about my most recent ex who brought me here. I have started experiencing feelings of . . . pity maybe? Sympathy in some ways. Feeling like, “yeah, I know… I messed up with my previous relationships too. I messed up with you and you did wrong things too. We are all humans. Mental hug.” I am thinking these thoughts now. But I don’t want to see him. I don’t want to know what he is up to. I wish him well, but yet, want to be out of his life completely. So it’s compassion and forgiveness but without involvement and wanting to be back in touch. Moving on detached yet with some warmth in your heart. I am learning and thinking out loud. I haven’t perfected this yet.
I know what you mean, Karen. Maybe a better phrasing is to say “I am willing to let it go now” rather than “I forgive him.” I don’t want to open up my heart to any warm feelings that could lead me back to my abusive ex. I will let it go. Cautiously. For my own sake, I need to hang onto the memory of how he hurt me to keep me from going back…
Nat this is an amazing post. It really touches on the true meaning of forgiveness beautifully. We can forgive and let go but we don’t have to forget but in the same token don’t relive what you can’t change. Life is a learning process and if you see these painful past events as opportunities to learn the lessons of self love and knowing only you can control your Hapiness (or unhappiness) is such a powerful feeling. I never knew these things until this last year when I started doing the cliche thing of soul searching and discovering myself with your site and self help books and its safe to say I can *finally* let go of my past after so many years and remember the past as the old chapter. I remember when I felt the weight literally come off of my shoulders and clicked that I am who makes me happy it was the first time the tears were happy tears.
To a new chapter and a new me in 2015. Hugs to you Nat and all of your readers.
Brilliant post, I feel I am moving forward and my life has not stood still. I have done lots of fantastic things since my split sometimes with a tinge of sadness as I have held onto the past but I have still done them. I do struggle with the letting go part, still establishing the lessons I can learn from this experience. I do not want to make the same choices again and am learning about what I want out of a relationship which I have never done.
In reflecting I am looking at the past, talking about it, thinking about it but the level of emotional attachment or how much it upsets me has diminished. Sometimes my faith in myself and the universe is my biggest stumbling block.
Your posts are always helpful and inspiring.
Happy new year all. Thank you for this post as it came at the right time. I am going through a process of self reflection and evaluation, where I am trying to forgive me ex narcissit aka mr unavailable, but also realized that I need to forgive me for being so critical and hard on myself. Just two days ago I almost fell off the no contact diet and had to resist the urge to call him to ask y? Instead I wrote a note on my phone detailing our relationship and what are the patterns or behaviors which I exhibited to make him treat me the way he did. I realized that I was holding on to a lot of past grudges and hurt and mistakes from a previous relationship. I came from a family where my eldest brother was a spoilt child and would throw tantrums to get his way or my mom would ask us not to give other family members bad things to say about us. I grew up appeasing men – my brother- instead of demand stuff. As the middle child I felt like I always had to make do for his mistakes and when he threw his tantrums it was up to me to be the pacifier and curb to his needs, whether that be give him money or do his household chores or lie for him, just about anything to prevent the neighbors and my parents from knowing about his bad habits. I find that I did that in my relationship, as I made excuses and did not demand and of my ex ever got angry about anything I would quickly say that it’s okay it’s not that much of a problem, let us move on.
In my self reflection I also realized that I was actually taking the blame again instead of realizing that he was to blame as well. After being in a relationship with him for 4-5 years, he got engaged and is expecting a kid with a girl he knew for 1 year. I found out his great news via social media and even after speaking to him on countless occasions he never ever mentioned his engagement or that he was expecting. He then sent me a text telling me he had to move on. Since I was hurt I sent him a text saying he was a coward, but later sent him a really classy text saying congrats, wished him all the best in his new stage in life. I never recieved a thank you, okay, or any form of response from him.
I get panic attacks thinking of this upcoming wedding and baby and sometimes I feel so much less of a woman. That it’s my fault that I did not act like a wife or mother material hence my discard. I see his photos on social media of how he is so happy, but I know better, yet still when I’m depressed I think he is so much happier and they will live happily ever after.
After crying my heart out (something I had not done in a week – all this drama happened around thanksgiving and I had been crying from then till Christmas) I realized that for my sake it was a new year and that I had to move on and the best way to move on is to forgive. I am now starting on this journey by realizing that good men don’t do this shit; I am now open for a heathy man to love me; 2 months and next year this won’t matter to me anymore; that my emotions are normal even though everyone around me is asking me to suck it up and move on.
I would not wish this on my worst enemy or for anyone to go through heart ache or heart break like I am experiencing right now. But the best thing is that you learn about you. You get to reflect and if you are really honest with yourself then you will see patterns and behaviors that you would nt otherwise see. Through this journey I learned who I am, why I allowed people to take advantage of me; who my friends are; what I want out of a man and a relationship; why any many would treat me like this.
At first I thought it was my fault; cuz that’s what society tells you, that people treat you how you allow them to treat you and while that’s true, in this experience I learnt that broken ppl are the ones who treat you how you allow them to. Normal healthy people will rise you up and help you realize your worth while unhealthy men and women will milk you and treat you bad because they are broken. Like Natalie said in one of her posts there is a difference between personality and character. His character sucked and while I was caught up in how great of a man he is, self reflection made me realize he isn’t that great, cuz if he was a man he would have handled the situation differently.
There are so many women hurting and who have gone through similar situations. We on here call them mr emotionally unavailable, but they are narcissist as well. It sucks being in a relationship with one and after they destroy you, you will be left trying to pick up the pieces of your life and feeling like you can’t go on. But forgive yourself and forgive them and it’s hard but after life gets easier. Do it at your own pace, but don’t stay there forever.
Thank you all for the love and support because if I was not reading here and on other sites, I would have never gotten the courage to forgive and to stand up. I’m not there yet, but I’m not where I was yesterday.
Just two days ago I almost fell off the no contact diet and had to resist the urge to call him to ask y? Instead I wrote a note on my phone detailing our relationship and what are the patterns or behaviors which I exhibited to make him treat me the way he did.
Right response! Well done, Preshusdee!
I found out his great news via social media and even after speaking to him on countless occasions
Wrong response! What were you doing following him on social media? And why were you speaking to him when you should have been NC?
Since I was hurt I sent him a text saying he was a coward, but later sent him a really classy text saying congrats, wished him all the best in his new stage in life. I never recieved a thank you, okay, or any form of response from him.
Half-right and half-wrong. The classy text was a nice touch, but the ‘coward’ one, plus the fact that you should be NC, kind of undo the good that you did there …
I get panic attacks thinking of this upcoming wedding and baby and sometimes I feel so much less of a woman. That it’s my fault that I did not act like a wife or mother material hence my discard. I see his photos on social media of how he is so happy, but I know better, yet still when I’m depressed I think he is so much happier and they will live happily ever after.
Preshusdee, you are no less of a woman because of the way someone ELSE behaves. The only way you lessen yourself as a woman is by the way YOU behave.
If you want to be a wife/mother – the world’s hardest job! – you absolutely must take the time and the care to choose the right man to do this with. And this man was NOT the right one for you. Not by a long shot.
I can tell you something else pretty amazing now: you didn’t love this man. I can tell you that, with my hand on my heart:
* When you really love someone, you wish them well, even if it’s with someone else. It’s hard, but you can do it, because you genuinely want them to be happy.
* But when you are obsessed/in lust/infatuated/over-invested with someone, you absolutely hate them for moving on with someone else.
This is something I discovered from patterns in my own life, and it’s been a huge liberation for me. It’s always, always a great blessing to be rid of people who we don’t really love.
I know you are hurting, and having a good cry is very healing and very comforting. But don’t have panic attacks about the wedding. It has nothing to do with you, and you should keep it that way. Go NC and stick to it, and keep well away from people who you both know.
Hey E,
Thank you for breaking down my post. Allow me to clarify a few things.
First I do not follow him on social media. I found out because we have mutual friends and one of those friends posted congrats. On top of that, 5 minutes after “his news broke the internet” other mutual friends contacted me saying they did not know we broke up and he was seeing someone else. Other mutual friends said they were so happy for him, that he was acting so “out of character” and he decided to make such a bold move, while one even told me she was glad he was getting rid of his “bad habit” to focus on his soon to be wife and kid.
Initially I was pointing out all the reasons that this is a front put up by him, but nobody listened. It’s like they forgot who he is/was and figure he changed over night, that I was the bad person hence I could not make him a better person but she could that why the marriage and the kid is a step up.
From then I removed the mutual friends from my social media and friends list. I realized that those same people who are inconsiderate of my feelings now will come later on the wedding day or when the kid is born and share photos and stories. I’m on a road to recovery and don’t need any relapses.
Secondly, at the time this happened I had not established NC. We were still on speaking term because as a couple we were working on a project which had to be completed. Even after I found out about his news I felt like he had to man up and tell me so we could end cordially. Boy was I wrong. I planned on going NC after the project was completed, but he “beat” me to it by sending the callous “I have to move on text”. I sent him the coward text, but after I realized I was acting childish, I sent him a better text wishing him all the best and then I sent him an email (it was more for me than for him) telling him how he treated me, what I felt etc. It’s all the things over the years that I wanted to say but never had courage to say. I called it “the end of our story”. I then deleted his number and took the necessary steps needed to initiate NC. I ensured at least on my part I got my closure.
Third – it’s funny u mentioned I don’t love him. I wish him all the best. As much as I would want to be the one marrying him and having his child, if this woman is or did make him a better person then I am very glad that he found his person and I am happy that he took the necessary steps and manned up. However, there r moments that I will feel anger towards him for the level of disrespect and the way he handled the situation. That anger had nothing to do with their relationship or him, but I would like to believe that it’s a natural reaction and I am going through the emotions.
This is where the forgiveness comes in in order to move on. I find it hard to believe that a man can treat me like this, but be so loving towards another woman. I find it hard that a man moving on into a new phase in life, a man who claims to have found somebody who challenges him to be better, can treat others (me) with the same content and disrespect. In my mind I’m thinking he could have been more of a man and handled the situation differently. I’m sorry would not hurt.
I would not say I hate him, I hate what he did to me and did to us.
The best advice I ever recieved was that his decisions had nothing to do with me, it’s all about him and his life. So I stopped making it about me, stop myself feel like it’s my fault and I was not good enough. I realized that I could have given this man the moon and stars and everything else and the outcome would still be the same. He made his decision based on his life circumstances. I always say if the tables were turned I would make the same choice, just not treat him with the disrespect he treated me.
My panic attacks are more caused by the disbelief. Like I move on and find things that I enjoy doing, but there are times when something will make me remember him or trigger a memory and the feelings will come back. I have become more aware of pregnancy and wedding advertisements even when I don’t want to be, so I have to make an effort to not react.
My issue to is coming to terms with what I see and what I know. The world sees a man who has changed, I see a man with a new victim and elevated circumstances. That is to say I don’t see a changed man but a man who changes his colors and personality to fit a new victim. I wish I could go into detail with why I say this, but this will be too long of a post. I’m fighting with whether this is reality or if I’m making shit up as the scorned woman. Many people see the changed man, but me I’m the scorned woman so I will figure he is not a changed man.
I have accepted that it’s a process and this is fresh and it will take some time to heel. So I am allowing myself to go through the motions, instead of rushing to be healed and making the same mistakes in my new relationship.
Hello Preshusdee, I am glad I read your story, I find it inspiring and I think you have handled things beautifully. I just wanted to point out a couple of things that might be of help to you if you like. First, from your first post, although you say “I grew up appeasing men – my brother- instead of demand stuff”, it would seem that you tried to appease your mother too, because “mom would ask us not to give other family members bad things to say about us.” I don’t mean this to exonerate your brother, but just to say that there were other people involved who were responsible for that situation too.
Secondly, what does it mean “2 months and next year this won’t matter to me anymore”? Are you going to the wedding? I strongly advise you not to. You could even go somewhere else for a few days around the wedding date to make things easier.
Best wishes, V.
Hello V,
Thank you. Yes my mom takes part of the blame as well and it is something that I have spoken to her about before. She has accepted her part in all this and we have a healthy relationship. My eldest brother and I, well although he tries, I have still not forgiven him and I am also working on that. It is one of my goals for this year.
Lol, woe that would be the day, if I ever show up at the wedding. I won’t degrade myself in this manner and this is not my intention. What I meant is that 2 months from now or a year from now this won’t matter to me. My crying, my pain, my panic attacks and even at times being pre-occupied with thoughts of him. I mean to say that I will have moved on, be healthy and focusing on other things because time heels. This is why I’m not fighting the process nor listening to ppl’s version of how they expect me to live and heal.
Although I have made all the necessary steps to get rid of having any contact with him or knowing about him, I am sure somebody somewhere will find a way to let me know something. I have realized that people in our mutual circles can be very vicious at times.
Mentally I keep telling myself I have to deal with possible relapses when the wedding rolls by or the kid is born, but at least I know I will be so much stronger. I might shed a tear or two, but that’s it, as I won’t allow myself to wallow. No need… People move on and made their choice, there is no reason to still be pining about their choices.
I’m glad I inspired you in some way. You guys also inspired me as it is through your comments and stories I got the courage to stand on my own to feet. I realized that I was not alone and people who had gone through it survived. I had too much going for me, to let this put me down.
Thank you!
Preshusdee, you sound a lot stronger and a lot more together in this post – that’s wonderful. I was worried.
How great that you were able to flush the fake friends, too! With friends like that, who needs enemas …In time, some of them may realise that they were wrong, and come back to you, which is fine, as long as it doesn’t involve tale-bearing about this guy.
I have a dodgy married female friend who is a bit like this. Mostly I get on well with her, but she is mildly obsessed with my ex (he is such a strange man, and does seem to have that effect on certain women). She always wants to talk about him to me, and tell me about what he’s up to now. I have to just laugh and say, ‘You know, X, I’m just not interested’, and then ask her about her kids. The best bit is that this statement IS ENTIRELY TRUE.
You aren’t ‘scorned’. You had a lucky, lucky escape. It doesn’t feel that way yet, but it soon will, I’m sure. Time doesn’t just heal wounds; it also makes the truth come out.
Lol.. You made me laugh. Well thank you!
Yes it’s a great time to know who your friends really are. I did have one like this who always wants to know what’s going on and will make little comments about my ex like I am suppose to care.
It amazes me how an engagement and kid can total relinquish him of any of his past behaviors and his character, all of a sudden he can do no wrong.
I like how those same people will say “so out of character for him” but find nothing wrong. My ex was never one to show off on social media or even eat bread… Now his pix are all about photos if he n his fiancé on wonderful adventures and eating lots if bread. Funny how this works out. Guess he really is a changed man.
Only time will tell as someone will send me a photo of the bouncing bundle of joy and exchange of vows, but I will ensure I take necessary steps to ensure that nobody ruins my progress.
Thanks for saying I’m not scorned.. I was starting to think I was. I listened to beyonce’s “best I never had” and I thank God I dodged a bullet daily because if this did not happen I would never see that I was devaluing myself, never see him for who he really is and I’m sure I would be making some excuse for why he did not live up to a promise he made.
Break-ups r not fun but they teach you a lot.
Thanks for your support and I love the way you handle your friend. I will use this as well.
Perhaps Pearl Jam’s ‘Better Man’ would be a better listening decision – that’s what your relationship sounded like! You want to get back to this bit:
‘Memories back when she was bold and strong
And waiting for the world to come along…’
You CAN get back there. All it takes is NC and having a huge (and often very joyful and amazing) adventure of getting to know yourself properly. It’s kind of a combination between bungee-jumping and eating pate to the sound of trumpets.
Preshusdee you just wrote my story and agonies. The word Narcissist is key here.
While they remain in control of your emotions in any way – they remain still in control and get an ego boost from hurting you – even if they can’t directly see your reaction they will imagine it – but you don’t know this until you understand what a narcissist is and how they operate – and how you became their victim in the first place.
He may not do the Social Media thing but does he know you do???
If he is Narcissist by definition no I’m sorry or closure will ever come from him – by definition because he has no conscience. He will possibly have manufactured ways to make people believe he has one ie identifying themselves strongly with causes that are assosiated with being a caring individual – but real empathy for people they are supposed to care about is questionable.
I think you have handled yourself magnificently! because information out there to help diagnose this is hard to find – it took me years – there is alot on Narcissist’s but you never imagine in a million years that this is actually YOUR ex or family members – they are so charming to others and sometimes to you – you want to cling onto it – if only you were a better child/lover/girlfriend/wife which is of course the worst thing that you can do.
You can often be given the wrong advice by well meaning friends who believe the best thing is to shut you down from going on about it all the time after months – they think – mistakenly – it is running you down however the reverse is true you are so shocked at allowing yourself to be their victim and being taken in by them – it is actually real trauma – it takes alot of time and talking when you are ready to, to get it all out of your system ie no denial or repression or allowing yourself to be forced to because this is of course key to you protecting yourself from it ever happening again.
…and yes it is linked to your own upbringing as a child and past/current family dynamics and relationships and I too am struggling with forgiving my brother, who simultaneously – supported by my whole family – destroyed me in my families eyes – and has just married an intellectual, bought a house, got a promotion and had a child this year – while I recover from nearly dying and probably will be unable to have children etc… I can’t even cope with meeting my new neice – which they are trying their best to make me feel bad for – even though I know she is an innocent baby – I know the adults around her aren’t – I know my brother’s wife supports him and I can’t forgive my mother who I have also realised is a Narcissist and my father who enabled her in order to keep the peace in his own rocky marriage.
After years of trying to please my entire family – who no matter what I did for them – still made me feel like a criminal in my own family – even though I had done nothing other than to express my needs and my feelings and inadvertantly made them feel bad? for not being there for me through all of this possibly? They are all over my golden child brother.
So this year I didn’t write the personal letters with each Christmas card as I normally do – updating them so they can shoot me down if they should happen to see me during the year – or send cards to those that repeatedly just haven’t bothered. I didn’t go visiting the new born or send my brother a birthday present and boldly stated – that he obviously couldn’t afford to send my birthday present even though it was 8 months ago, so I didn’t want to embarass him by sending him one evan though I am on benefits.
I bravely cut off in a one horse town – all contact with my ex’s friends/harem/village/art groups – they were easy to see – they were the ones still telling me stuff even though I had clearly stated I didn’t want to know anymore. This includes my next door neighbours and landlord/lady – who he all charmed and conveniently told them all manner of negative stories that they stupidly believed because he was my boyfriend/was charming and reacted – which is similar to my own mother and father (her enabler) who spread their own version of me amoungst my entire family that lived hundreds of miles away – KNOWING as a child, I had little contact/comeback with them due to my own circumstances and so their many negative versions of me would go relatively unchallenged…
I’ve cut them all out and have started to practise boundaries – really difficult – but now I am realizing just how damaging their behaviour towards me has actually been I am f****** angry – really – I know that I need to forgive them somehow but I am finding it really really difficult – they have taken away from me the chance to ever have my own family and I’m currently unable to work due to the state my ex and family left me in before I worked out what he and others had actually done.
Here is why I understand forgiving is useful – I went to the top of the hill and screamed at my ex like a mad woman when my ex left without telling me – even though I know what he was doing behind my back I still felt the pain from his rejection of me and from the childhood conditioning of family doing the same. When I screamed a funny thing happened to me – I was screaming about him leaving me there on my own and I was screaming at the most picture book view of the countryside you could ever hope to see – it was beautiful and I had an epiphany I described before on here – he had left me in reality in a beautiful beautiful place and he probably would never actually see what he had left again – while I lived in it. I don’t know if that is forgiveness but its the closest I’ve got to it and it came from ALLOWING myself to be angry and simultaneously express it in a safe place/way for me. So I guess I need to find a way to do that with the rest of my family – because they will never admit ever what they have all done to me – because ‘nice people don’t do things like that’. Do they.
Thank you for writing Preshusdee I was beginning to feel bad for not being able to forgive and then I was reminded just why that is – I still need to express something safely about these people.
Just to add, for anyone struggling with initial stages of getting over an AC, I think it’s fine (if not crucial) to spend some time getting angry over their behaviour before you move to forgiveness. I took the day off work today and spent a lot of time journalling, and most of it was venomous anger towards MM.. But it was so therapeutic!!
I will work on forgiveness down the road. But for now, it has really helped me to see him for what he is and own his own and me my own (rather than just wallowing in negative thoughts towards myself).
Try it first.. Then move on to forgiveness when and as quickly as you can, would be my current recommendation. I think both are crucial:
First step, move from sadness and self loathing to anger (do this! Write it down.. It feels so good!)
Second step, get really angry!
Third step, move from anger to acceptance (of him and what happened but also of yourself and your reactions and behaviours.. You are human! And most of us are dealing with very difficult people and situations)
Fourth step, move from acceptance to forgiveness.
Haha, that’s my sage advice for tonight. I am currently on step 2!
So true! Please don’t skip past or rush through being angry!
As women we are socialized to be nice…that being angry is not nice, i.e., not lady like. That’s dangerous to our mental health, physical and spiritual health.
Anger is a healthy emotion and is a signal that something is not right and that we should pay attention; that our boundaries are being violated. Learning to recognize and feel our anger, and respond to it in healthy ways, keeps us safe (protected) and healthy. If we deny it, minimize it, smooth it over, shove it down, etc. we are denying a part of ourselves, a very healthy, protective, part of ourselves.
This leaves us open and vulnerable to people who recognize this fear of anger and will use it to bully and/or manipulate …control us.
If we skip the anger stage and try to go right to forgiveness, it doesn’t work. Denying a feeling doesn’t make it go away. It finds away out, usually in a very unpredictable/unhelpful way!
Acknowledging and sitting with a feeling, giving voice to the feeling…really feeling it and getting to the source of the anger and finding a response that will help you protect yourself/your boundary, is what eventually releases.
Journaling and/or talking to a trusted person who is comfortable with witnessing your anger is a great release as well.
Learning to recognize and be comfortable with our anger is a process. It takes patience and it is worth it.
To my understanding and in my experience, trying to skip any of the stages and rushing to forgiveness denies you the ability to fully heal and get to the place where you can truly forgive.
I’ve also learned that even when I go through all of the stages and take my time with them and believe that I have forgiven someone. Sometimes and old wound surfaces that i did not know was there and I go through the process again.
Veracity, its amazing, you’ve nailed it.
I would definitely second that.
I recently went through an experience where a 20 year old wound resurfaced, with hurt and anger, and this time I was able to address it. In fact I had no choice – because I had to.
In a chat with my ex whom I thought I had forgiven, (its been 20 yrs and we are friends)…floodgates to an old wound opened recently. They were caused by something else altogether, and I could not believed I had so much bottled emotion. We both were shocked. But now that it has showed up, I took note, and said that I needed to review my equation with him and stepped back. As I process it, I feel that I had not vented my anger or forgiven myself at the right time – and now that I am in a process of doing so – for a totally different guy in totally different circumstances…I am able to forgive myself for a past situation. But not without dealing with an ancient anger… amazing how important that anger is. I would call it self love, not anger. And forgiveness stems from it, ironically.
It’s been over three years, almost four, since I ended an abusive relationship where I went complete NC. I don’t feel active pain over it anymore, and am even able to run into him occasionally and not be affected. I did forgive him, quietly and slowly on my own time. Recently I ran into him at a store where he caught me off guard and said hello. I said hello back and we exchanged very basic small talk. I then turned back to what I was doing and mentally moved on. He then said hello again, which was weird. I looked up at him and he had a grin on his face, a familiar shit eating grin. I finished up with the cashier and left, feeling odd. It opened up a lil bit of shit for me in a way I couldn’t put my finger on at the time. I don’t worry about him bothering or contacting me, he won’t, it’s more about what it stirred up in me. Not melancholy for him or the relationship, but more of a sadness for myself and how he changed me, the parts of me I lost. I learned a ton about the whole rotten experience and it was an epiphany that I needed to wake up and come out of my own dysfunction, which I have diligently worked on in the past few years. I have felt peaceful mostly, but since this encounter about a month ago ( plus just life in general ), I started looking at myself a bit closer again and I started to slide into self criticism, thinking that I am damaged goods and most likely because of trust issues and specific triggers related to the verbal abuse in the relationship, that I am probably a difficult person to be around because I get triggered easily when I feel like someone, anyone is pushing me down or attempting to gaslight me, or discredit me. I have not healed as much as I thought. In this post, Natalie mentioned not realizing when you have hardened up. It then became a very clear to me as soon as I read it….I have “become hardened from unrealized ‘negative’ teachings”. Bingo. As peaceful as thought I felt in my life right now, I have become defensive and a bit closed off inwardly. Logically, I know I’m not damaged goods, but realistically I am most likely still stuck in fear and avoidance. It’s funny when you still get these out of no where epiphanies even when you feel like you’ve come so far already. There’s just no end to this is there? Ha ha. At least I can see the humor in it and don’t feel completely heavy hearted. That also shows me that I’ve retained “good teachings” too, that healing is possible, it just happens in fits and spurts, starts and stops, depending on when we are ready for it. Hope persists. I just got new health insurance and mental counseling is almost completely covered, so I decided after almost four years, that maybe it’s time to invest in myself and help fade a few scars that I don’t know how to do on my own. Forgiveness evolves.
Selkie, I’ve been through some serious s##t both in my private and professional life. Only recently I’ve realised the reason is in both cases the same, putting myself in a child role and looking for approval by pleasing others. Only recently I’ve realised that I’m no longer a child at total mercy of my parents and depending completely on them to survive. Nothing really horrible happens if somebody doesn’t like me. I can and have to take care of myself and my career rather than expecting my boss to have my interests at heart and support me in my career which I have to earn and repay by workaholism and putting my head down in silence. Shortly, I think I’m growing up. Do I think that I’ve hardened and mourn a loss of innocence? Not at all, I’m actually enjoying to learn taking care of myself while still being a good human being to others, and I don’t think “naivety” is “innocence”. Naivety just prevents a person to differentiate between good and bad and making realistic choice – no, not everybody is good but plenty of people are and I’m being able to assess people and choose to spend my time with those who can enrich my life and support me (and I can do the same for them). Quite liberating, really, and far more enjoyable, too.
I agree with Mephista! Plus, there is nothing wrong with feeling weird/uncomfortable around a person who has abused us in the past. Quite the opposite: It’s a healthy reaction, and btw., this is why NC is supposed to last forever (even if we forgive). No need to perform small talk with abusive jerks.
We should learn to feel comfortable only around healthy, decent people.
Seeing him doesn’t bother me, it really is ‘meh’ for me. It took me a while to get to this point, I used to be afraid of him. He did act weird the last time I ran into him though, but usually it is very very basic and uneventful. I have no desire to be friendly, but merely civil instead as we have mutual friends and live in a small town. My first post on this site was about being terrified of seeing him, so in that aspect…I have come light years. It took me a long time to get to this point. I guess what I was trying to say in my comment above ( not very good at expressing myself) is that it triggered me to look a little deeper at myself again. I’ve been feeling like I’m driving people away or put people off with the way I come across. It’s been on my mind even before I ran into him as I feel like I am unhappy in my social life and don’t have close friendships, but the seeing him was like connecting the dots mentally for me, that maybe the lingering affects of the abuse made me somewhat unapproachable or as guy friend said….combative. I didn’t used to be. So I’m being hard on myself for not having this charming personality and not being able to make many friends. Keeping in line with this post, I forgive him, which was liberating to let go of the anger, but I’m not so forgiving of myself for the changes that took place in me and how I now am very guarded and maybe a being bit rough on people. I feel stuck in my own progress, not being able to be open.
Yes I get the hardened feeling also.
I have moments where I feel liberated and free from all the crap I left behind, but lately I wonder if my protecting myself is holding me back from living a more open, happy life. Nothing terrible happens if someone doesn’t like me, you are so right, but keeping people at a distance can leave you lonely if you’re ( me) afraid to let anyone in. I think I do this. I used to think I was just being peaceful….now I wonder if I’m just being avoidant. My peace is great, but it’a also a tiny bit lonely.
Selkie, I have had the same problems, and I recognise them as part of the obstacle-race that is being single and learning to live that way.
Can I offer unsolicited advice from the Ethelreda Charm School manual?
1) Start small. Go to events or gatherings or other activities that don’t require a big emotional investment, like a movie night or casual group dinner or a one-off volunteer activity or something like that. Try Meetup.com for ideas and opportunities.
This can ease a lot of that feeling of loneliness and prickliness and burgeoning-lady-eccentric-who-will-cut-down-trees-and-die-eaten-by-own-cats. You will probably find that you actually are capable of making enjoyable small talk with strangers when you aren’t mentally trying on wedding dresses/using your X-ray vision to check that they aren’t carrying concealed weapons, either physically or emotionally …
My trick is to ask people about themselves, and it’s amazing how interested you can actually become in other people, whether it’s an old lady telling you about her son’s divorce, or a hairdresser telling you about her worst client ever.
Other good conversational gambits are, ‘Have you ever seen a ghost?’ and ‘What was your first day at work like?’ (I knew someone whose idea of a good conversational gambit was, ‘Have you ever killed anyone?’ He said it was amazing how often the person said yes. So maybe not that one, unless you’re feeling brave).
2) Practice makes perfect. This includes practising how you will tell people about yourself. It’s good to have some very boiled-down biographical stuff, especially if you have Difficult Areas you don’t want to discuss, like your marital status or employment history. You can also soon learn to steer a polite conversation away from these sensitive areas. (See ‘Have you ever seen a ghost?’, above).
But you won’t consolidate these skills unless you get out there and start talking/listening to people. Actual people, just ordinary folks.
This helps to re-integrate you socially and emotionally, especially if you’ve been very, very deeply enmeshed in just one other person. It helps to put some balance back into your life. It’s a bit nerve-wracking at first for everyone, of course, because most people AREN’T really outgoing and gregarious, but you can soon learn to cope in these situations if you practise.
It really can come very easily, and I was so thrilled, because I have always been an awkward kind of person – I was alone far too much as a child, and didn’t learn to make friends until I was an adult, and even then I tended to make kind of weird friends. I’d also had such strange experiences in my upbringing that it did isolate me socially – we were one of those ‘fortress’ families that ‘didn’t talk about things outside the home’, etc.
But you can get past it, and you can get past your unhappy love life experiences too.
I just thought of a couple of others:
3) No expectations. Go into any social situation with no expectations of yourself, or of anyone else there. Then, everything good that you get out of it is a gift and a blessing. This is hard when you have trauma in your background, but you can do it, if you breathe deeply and repeat it a lot.
Something I learned in cognitive behavioural therapy was to have a song or a visual image that would stimulate positive feelings in me when I was feeling stressed or unhappy. My ‘reminder tag’ for having no expectations was actually the Rolling Stones song ‘No Expectations’. Not a hugely positive song, but the ‘feeling’ of it was all I needed, not the lyrics, to remind me that this is how I should be handling this situation.
4) No other expectations either. This is related to point 3, and it’s an extension of it.
People are flawed. They do bad stuff, stupid stuff, thoughtless stuff, ignorant stuff, hurtful stuff. All. The. Time.
If you learn to accept this, and to accept that you too are flawed, and capable of doing all the above as well, it can help to soothe you in situations where you are at risk of becoming prickly because you’re (unconsciously) expecting good things or bad things of people.
Again, when something good happens, this really makes it easier to be grateful for the good when you experience it, instead of wiping it out because all you can think of is all the times you were hurt/damaged.
I hope some of this helps. In fact, I only hope some of it makes sense …!
FINALLY – I promise this is the last one!
If the thought of going to a group activity horrifies you – and it can do, for some people, when they’ve been very badly burned – then start even smaller and practise the following:
– smiling
– saying good morning
– saying how are you?
– saying thank you
– saying you’re welcome when someone thanks you
– saying have a nice day
– saying whatever else is culturally appropriate in your place of residence
to absolutely anyone with whom you have contact, eg. people in shops who serve you, bus driver, guy you buy newspaper from, coffee shop staff.
Possibly even the guy writing you a parking ticket, although you might want to be a bit snippy with him, just on principle.
Ethelreda,
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I will try the questions you suggested, and especially about getting people to talk about themselves. I tend to try and get MY stuff in ( not dominate the conversation but what I think is 50 50), because I feel under estimated much of the time and actually talked down to about things I already know. I feel uninteresting, although I have done a lot of cool stuff. No one cares. This ties into the not having expectations in a social setting. I see what you’re saying and it makes sense, because when I think about it, the folks I like and seem to connect with are people who make me feel heard and are actually interested in what I say, it makes you feel like you matter. On a good note, I do say hello, how are you, I like your handbag, etc, small talk. This is actually easy for me, its getting past that into more substance where I get awkward. Anyway, thank you again.
Love it!
Have used this and it works…Bob Marley – Three Little Birds.
Well done!
Ethelreda,
Your last paragraph:
” I have always been an awkward kind of person – I was alone far too much as a child, and didn’t learn to make friends until I was an adult, and even then I tended to make kind of weird friends. I’d also had such strange experiences in my upbringing that it did isolate me socially – we were one of those ‘fortress’ families that ‘didn’t talk about things outside the home’, etc.”
That was me too! Exactly. Weird how many of us on here have such similarities.
I love your advice Ethelreda – you just made me laugh lady thank you so much! I am soooo focused on my x-ray vision…
Agreed. I think at some point we have to make the decision that we are going to take responsibility for what happens in our life instead of turning over our power (decisions) to the closest authority figure. It can be scary at first, then it feels great, empowering.
“I am probably a difficult person to be around because I get triggered easily when I feel like someone, anyone is pushing me down or attempting to gaslight me, or discredit me.”
Selkie, I never push down people let alone friends, don’t gaslight anybody (and actually find that modus operandi nausea-inducing), and don’t discredit anybody – not even sure what that means.
If, accidentally, I, let’s say, play down somebody’s emotions, I apologize, either on my own or because that somebody pointed that out to me.
Therefore, *I* wouldn’t find you difficult. See what I mean? Take care dear, V.
Thank you, V., I needed to hear that too, more than I realized.
Thanks V. You are right, the people in my life that do that are ones that I have tried to distance myself from. Yet, I feel kinda bummed that I have distanced myself from so many that I feel alone. See, it makes me wonder if part of this is me being a bit too critical of people. Can so many people I meet be jerks….or is it me being very defensive? That’s what’s been eating at me lately. Maybe I am a part of the problem, the common denominator.
Looks like the problem is that you define ‘defensive’ what is rightful protection, and at the same time you are, as a matter of fact, lonely. It is immensely easier to tackle these issues with a counsellor, than with a trial and error process of making friends. I do hope that in a way or another somebody decent crosses your path. I can never understand a friend that tells you that you are ‘combative’. You look hurt to me, and scared, and lonely, as you yourself recognize. Very best wishes to you, V.
So wise V.
Selkie, I think I have an idea where you might be coming from. I was raised in a highly abusive household, so I have a high threshold for abuse. As I have been learning about spotting unhealthy behavior, and setting and maintaining healthy boundaries, I have been cutting ties with the unhealthy people in my life and find myself without any people left! Now I feel lonely. Feeling lonely and isolated is very painful.
Have recently tried to stick my toe in the social waters and was mortified with the type of people I was attracting…sociopaths, I’m pretty sure! So now I’m back to hunkering down in my sanctuary, licking and healing my wounds. I too have often thought that I am the common denominator, so it must be me. What I have come to understand, for my situation, is that I am a kind, sensitive, idealistic person, that hasn’t fully learned how to set and maintain healthy boundaries yet. These qualities are, unfortunately, like candy to cruel, manipulative people. I’m also still reeling from all of the boundary violations/emotional abuse/betrayal that I have previously experienced.
So my responsibility in this situation is to keep learning to protect myself in healthy, appropriate ways and to be kind to myself when I don’t do it perfectly, and to remember I can’t make it somebody elses job to protect me or take it personally when someone is a jerk. They were a jerk before they met me, not because of something I did or didn’t do. When people are jerks, I cut ’em loose. I used to assume most people were like me, didn’t ever want to harm anyone. I don’t assume that anymore, it feels a bit foreign to me, maybe too hard, but I don’t really think it is. I think it’s just more realistic. There are great people out there and real creeps out there.
I think as we get more aware of what trips us up and how to respond, we will attract less jerks because we are stronger and the jerks will look for someone else to bother.
Does this resonate with you?
To answer your question, yes, so many people you meet can be jerks. You may be, like me, temporarily a jerk magnet.
Thanks for the feedback everyone. It helps me a lot to get outside perspective.
V., I plan on seeing a therapist to help me sort out the fine line for me of being defensive vs normal boundaries. It is indeed a place where I am stuck. The friend who told me I’m combative told me this after I placed a boundary with another person and he witnessed it. It was like, shit, you’re damned of you do, damned if you don’t. I distance myself from him as I find him belittling and that I don’t even like him that much. I call him the boundary pusher.
Veracity, Yes, what you wrote resonates with me very much. You said, “So my responsibility in this situation is to keep learning to protect myself in healthy, appropriate ways and to be kind to myself when I don’t do it perfectly” This! I am shaking my head yes.
I have been researching a good response to gaslighting and haven’t come up with one.
I just experienced it!
When I had an email conversation with this person – asking them if they followed through on something they said they would do, I got a crazy making run around response and I am excited about the prospect of finding a way to shut it (the gaslighting) and her down!
12/16 Me
Hey, did you happen to ask Janet about that job?
12/17 Response
Are you referring to the law office job? I do have some info on it, although it’s from November in an old Facebook message: job description here.
12/17 me
Yes, I had asked you after the dance a couple of weeks ago if you would ask Janet if it was still open and you said you would.
Crickets until after Christmas when she went on as though nothing happened and invited me out to a dance. I declined. I was originally planning on dropping it because she is clearly dodging responsibility and didn’t/doesn’t want to help, just give the appearance of help (I see a pattern here), and declining all invitations and fazing her out. In the past I’ve had people women get very mean/aggressive/passive aggressive when I just dropped them. I will see her at events unless I choose to stop going to these events.
She has invited me to a couple of things in the new year and I have declined. After this last one I decided to follow up with her about the job-push the issue.
1/8 Me
Hey, following up on that job. Did you ask Janet about it?
1/8 Response
Which job?
My first reaction was anger. I was really mad. And I can’t help but wonder if that’s what she wanted! A reaction!
Anybody know a skillful response to this sort of behavior? Unfortunately I think I have been/am pretty susceptible to it.
Veracity, that sucks. I have encountered the same kind of seemingly well meaning, but ‘not really’ comments from folks that when pressed on there word, act like I am being unreasonable or that I misinterpreted. It is so maddening. It just seems that I keep encountering these kind of people. I don’t trust by default, Its happened so many times. I can’t help take it personal. I know we are all flawed but meeting some real people with some integrity would be like Christmas to me. I don’t know a good response for you….that is my problem too.
Selkie, Too funny, while I was writing my response to you, your response to me had come through moderation!
Thanks, It does suck. Some people are pros and this stuff. I’m working very hard to be able to spot them and neutralize them quickly! Like a boundaries ninja. 🙂
Hopefully we’ll get some insight from folks that have more experience responding effectively. If you like, I’ll let you know how it works!
Varacity some people just don’t want to be helped – so I absolutely would not help her anymore – or – listen to any moaning that may come about as a result of her lack of job or any of her problems in future – she does not want to be helped is her direct message to you there and if you continue regardless you are treading a fine line between helping and co-depending/abusing yourself – so you will need some lines to deflect her that you can easily remember for when she starts to describe her problems…
Like ‘What can YOU do?’ is one of my favourites to people moaning when they don’t actually want to help themselves – let alone be helped by others. I try not to give advice unless asked or am directly presented with problem which they have been appreciative of or are showing respect for. And if they carry on, simply repeat it – often they say ‘Nothing’ to prove how impossible the situation is – at which you need to give an awkward silence because if you support that or tell them otherwise – they are actually leading you into a trap so that they can get angry at you. The truth is there is always another choice but the reality is for some reason she is not choosing to take it and she hasn’t accepted help when its been given. Its called the shoot the messenger game.
As for a reply to her ‘what job?’ I wouldn’t even reply – my reply would be ideally to go out and find new friends you can trust in the manner you need – I would leave the same vacuum she is leaving in your relationship and if she values it at all – she will come and ask you what is wrong – at which point you can tell her ‘When you ….., it made me feel……and the consequences are….’ If she does not value this and rejects it – you know she is NO friend – if she accepts it in a false manner – she is NO friend. Any true friend will do their most to make you feel good about yourself and would be genuinely hurt to feel that you were slighted by them. And yes this can miscommunications can happen and so it is important to put up the boundary of not rising to her bait anymore – followed up by communication only if she genuinely appears to want true communication BOTH ways or she wants to talk to herself. That is up to her.
I would make a mental note that I cannot trust this person. Ever again. Then I would move on to new friends and make no effort to hang out with her again. Friendship over.
It doesn’t do any good to confront a person like that or say anything “clever.” Friendship over.
Thanks. That’s what I was originally planning, but that has been my way of dealing with most problems like these in the past…just move on.
It’s hard for me to know what situations are the one’s where I should say something and stick up for myself and which one’s I should ignore. I’m working on getting past being a passive victim and being assertive and protecting myself.
I’ve found lots of information about how to spot gaslighting and the motivation behind it, but not tips on how to respond, or whether or not to respond.
I think with gaslighting, it’s best to move on, as this kind of person is not going to listen to reason because this style of communication and manipulation is in their character. It’s intentional. If it’a a boundary push from someone who may be unaware of how they are a bull in a china shop, then I think it’s worth a try to talk it out.
Thanks, Selkie. Makes sense. I set up her emails to go directly to the garbage. If I see her at social gatherings, I’ll be polite but not engage.
The thing with gas lighting is not to get in that vulnerable position in the first place – or to only do it once to yourself. If someone puts you down or makes you feel bad for being yourself – that’s your one chance to put a boundary in place ie absolute silence, walk away, go to the loo for the next six hundred weeks as far as they are concerned – and simultaneously their one and only chance to sort it out and prove their true friendship to you – if they don’t or are unable for any reason – after that they are on there own and you can move on knowing you gave them a signal that what they did was not ok – which THEY chose to ignore.
Veracity, I think also sometimes people dont want to do what you have asked, and the gas lighting is their way out. E.g. she might have decided to give that information to someone else, there might be some other power struggle and this information is part of that.
However, since this is a professional situation they are being unfair but still they are in their rights as they dont owe you anything [from what I can tell]. So I agree with the advice above – I wouldn’t trust this person in future, they make promises they can’t keep, and I assume the information is not a big deal so she can afford to be generous. Be careful doing them favors because they will come asking. Also, her denial has triggered something in you – all the more reason to stay away from this person.
As I think Ethelreda said above – have no expectations from minor acquaintances. Move on. Forgive yourself for falling for this person’s silly promises, and forgive this person for being such a flipper flapper and general undependable person.
Oh also — cultivate better professional contacts. Look for this information through another route etc.
Thanks all for your responses.
Hi Oona, Co-dependence is exactly what I’m working to get away from.
In this situation, I was working to make this ‘friendship’ more equal. This person is always looking for help from me, to borrow things (I’ve said no because my instincts told me I would never see my possession again), job leads, prayer, support, an ear, etc. I was recognizing things were out of balance so the one time she asked me if I needed anything and I told her I’m looking for leads on jobs (she had known I was looking; but I am currently employed). She mentioned a great job that someone she knows posted on Facebook. That email was me trying to get her to follow through on the one thing I had ever asked her to do for me.
Thank you for the tips on how to recognize and respond when someone makes their problems yours. I’m in NC with my sister for this very thing. She rages at me about her problems…never again. I’ve fallen into that trap more times than I care to remember. I am not responsible for her problems and I do not deserve to be abused. I deserve way better.
Hi Suki, I agree. It was clear from her responses that she didn’t want to follow through. My impression was that she just didn’t want to admit that she didn’t do it (she likely never intended to do it, just threw it out their to temporarily pretty up her side of things). I’m not surprised, really. I have great instincts, I’m just now learning to trust them. To trust myself. I tossed this request out to her after she inquired to see what she would do – a test- a test of my instincts, a test of her reliability. I didn’t trust her and I was right not to. She is unreliable and untrustworthy and, likely, far, far worse.
The way she did it was what triggered me…I’m pretty sure both my parents gaslighted me regularly.
I did finally find something about gaslighting that I found helpful in case anyone else is interested. If you are an empath, you will likely find this very helpful. It cleared up a lot for me.
On the bright side, I was out last night with some people I have been *slowly* getting to know over the last 2 years, and one woman, who strikes me as healthy, asked me about my job search and offered to keep an eye out for me (she loves her job and company) and to get me the name of her recruiter. I accepted.
Thanks again. I really appreciate the sounding board and support! Veracity
Ah my mistake Veracity – I thought YOU were giving her the chance to find a job – what a clutz! Sorry. Glad you have found the help you needed for asking her for help – and realising she isn’t reliable but others are.
Veracity, thanks for the link. I believe I’m empathic to a degree and this hit the nail on the head when the author describes the dance between the socio and the empath. Very familiar to me and my interactions. I feel like a fly on the wall sometimes.
Veracity, also since some employers dont like to find out that you are looking for a job, you might not want to tell your undependable co-workers that you are looking. Dont depend on undependable people. We keep giving people chances to step up, and we do it in ways that hurt us. Its not useful. Flush out toxic people. Know how to identify toxic people.
Wow, this post so describes where I need to get to, but I am a long long way off this yet. I have 40 years of train wreck to work through, for which I am trapped in cycles of blame, shame and guilt. I’ll also say that reading this and thinking about forgiveness of myself and the others in my life that have hurt me makes me feel really scared, I can feel the fear almost paralysing me. I’ll say almost paralysing and recognise I deserve some compassion at this point, because just reading this, acknowledging my feelings and writing here is a baby step towards the goal of forgiveness. Yes, maybe I can do this.
So what am I so afraid of? Taking responsibility for myself and my own life I guess. I’m afraid of the negative feelings, being angry, being out of control in some way. If I could get past this and just embrace the life I have I know I’d feel free and happy, just how do I get past this block?
It’s fear you’ll inadvertently end up back where you started – which if that is whats on your mind as a focus – is inevitably where you end up unfortunately.
I would say the best thing I did so far is focus on myself – absolutely read BR older posts – as much as you can/ over and over again – especially when you feel like crap or are crying, or about to wilt to some version of relationship self-harm – and keep writing out your feelings as best you can and don’t stop until you find you can have conversations with like minded people and build up your confidence in yourself for real.
I think you can definitely describe what happened to me as a train wreck and yes it culmonated – excuse my spelling! – after I was 40 also but had been careering off for as long as I have been alive so has taken a few years to shift in the right direction – but oh is it worth it! Good luck and hope to read you later…
Nat, thanks for this …and thank you again for your weekly updates and your blog….you have made a real difference to my life in the past couple of months. I feel much stronger and my healing process is a lot more gentler and kinder (to myself and others around me) , thanks to you. God bless you.
And yes, totally agree – Not forgiving ppl is at too high an emotional cost to ourselves. If i have learnt anything in 36 years it is this, really getting over something is achieving indifference to that person, not in an emotionless way, but that what happened doesnt affect us in the way it did, and we only look back with a smile at ‘the drama’ and see the lessons learnt…..we feel nothing but sympathy for that person almost …it takes years tho , for years I nursed resentment against my in laws for ‘spoiling the early years of my marriage’ i see their role in my life much more pragmatically now, we cant blame anyone for their actions when we were the ones who handed over control blindly that they never even actively asked for ….I believe in Karma a lot and that we learn lessons from bad experiences and how we cope is how we are measured …..
Rags mom, I too believe in Karma and it is incredible the energy we can waste – when energy can be better spent. People who hurt others do get hurt themselves later and wish they had that relationship they just ruined to have someone caring to talk to about their pain. It happens again and again. Karma is a cosmic energy, that no one can capture, but we can see it and understand it to be on the “good” side of it during our lives.
@Leanne,
Wanted to post this yesterday and hope it helps you =
1. I can see clearly the stages u are going through Lea, we all went through different versions of the same ….your overwhelming anger on day 1, your post on day 2 about what you felt had happened ‘ that he was probably trying to figure out what to do and then you snapped in december and he thought u were crazy and things reached a breaking point’ …we all look back and thing maybe if I had stayed more patient, if I had not demanded anything , if I had been sweet and never expecting anything THEN = he would have left his wife, he would leave his girlfriend, he would see I’m the one, he would want me as much as i want him , he would see how we are meant to be etc etc
Focus on a few basic things = you realised u liked him and u left your bf freeing yourself to be with him. Thats what real should look like. HE DIDNT DO THAT ,at any point in the past year. He has known his wife was pregnant, what, two or three weeks now. He had more than a year before than to pack his bags and leave and free himself to be with u. he didnt do that – and if he really was ‘trying to decide’ whom to be with – then any decent man in that tough situation A. would painstakingly use protection and safeguard against a pregnancy at such an uncertain time. B He would have confesed to her that he messed with u, and been truthful.
There are too many ambigiuities here. I dont think he deserves any more chances with you , he doesnt deserve anymore of your time, the worry here is anymore of your precious time getting wasted on this. You need to not only continue NC like your future depends on it, cos it does, but u need to start ur emotional healing from this. Clarity of thought and the right perspective on what happened will take weeks or months = you now WANT to think hes an ass*ole but ur heart doesnt still fully accept it, but just the passing of time will make u see it clearly- its as obvious as the day to the rest of us cos we are using our heads and processing the information u have given and thats what u will be able to do with time AND distance.
Your news on monday had a big impact on me for some reason . that and the 10 day holiday from work that gave me the downtime and the healing time with my son needed to FINALLY get my perspective a bit clearer on the events of the past year in my life. Your news on monday was the last bit for me that got me where I wanted to be right now – I know that sounds strange but reading ur AC saying he got his wife pregnant was like made ME go – thats it, that proves beyond a doubt that I was right in stopping any assumptions about the men in my life. OM WAS NOT into me the way I day dreamed he was – he was never going to say’ I want you , leave your marriage and lets be together’ …if i had left my marriage , FOR THE WRONG REASONS and with my head in a mess, I would have been the one in peril. For some reason, the difference between reality and fantasy is clearer to me now and the wish to live in grounded reality is a tangible desire now. Everyday. The love and need between my son and me is real. The commitment to my work and career is a real and ever growing passion. Count the real blessings in our life. The minute we decide we can afford to let our values get muddy , for a ‘hot guy’ is our first step down , into our personal hell. No one is worth compromising our integrity (MM’s, OM’s, guys who are just not into us and hence debase our self esteem, guys who seem like bad boys but we are ready to ignore/overlook) …..
My suggestions = write a list of all his actions and words that dont add up to him being a good guy like A. why did he not come clean with wife abt messing with u months ago. That would have been his card out if he wanted an out. B. Why he chose text to tell u what he knew should have been pretty shocking news for you both !
Write this whole list, and see how you feel abt him then. Take it from there. i dont think NC with this person should be hard to maintain , cos he is very much in his marriage and is expecting a baby. He may continue to give crumbs to keep you somewhere in the picture, when he feels like dissing about his wife again. Throw the crumbs back in his face. Indifference not hatred is the biggest revenge here. But even the word revenge indicates u are giving more of your time and energy on this person not worthy of ur time. Indifference comes when u have moved on, and that will take time. Work on u now and for a few weeks it will feel forced, but it will start flowing naturally in time, take it from me.
Great post! I personally think that forgiving and forgetting are kinda the same things…Once you focus on you, career, hobbies or whatever you enjoy doing in life (and theres so much more to life than men)and forget about these ACs, then you are over them and forgave them. You have to forget in order to forgive.
Like someone referred to Buddha above, you will always be punished by your anger and resentment and not for it…You need to forget and move on for you…not for them…so that is why you dont need to tell them all about it, bc it is not about them. Everyone is fighting their own battles and they prob just did what they thought was best (for them). So it is time to do now what is best for YOU. If you put it all in perspective, these ACs prob dont mean a thing anyway, just a lesson we had to learn.
Hi Colly, replying to a post from you on Monday ….
Yes, I do feel that my self esteem took a beating the past year. I was absolutely devoid of confidence and any enthusiasm for almost 4 or 5 months after leaving the old job and have only felt more healed in the past 3 or 4 weeks to be honest. I finally ended the madness in my mind around mid december.
I let myself become someone I never thought I would be = too weak to leave my marriage without some guarantee of his feelings from OM. I became a woman weak enuf that I could allow myself to get attracted to OM while still being in the marriage. Even the way i came home and told my husband I wanted a divorce multiple times doesnt seem like strength of character or honesty now, it seems like a selfish child wanting to have a new toy RIGHT NOW – I just overall didnt handle the situation like a mature adult i feel. and leaving the job made me feel even smaller for months, like I had to run away, and I felt like I had zero strength and enthusiasm to work on a new job my first few months in…its all finally starting to get better now and I can see the light. The day I got back from the holidays , Jan 5th for the first time instead of regrets I felt absolute relief , that I was in a new place where work was work and no more heart tearing over OM coming in at 2pm (his 9am !!) , will he talk first, what will he say , ….BS.
I remember coming back last Jan from 3 week holiday and I was all strong and the time with my son gives that to me, and then OM blew hot the first few weeks ..by then even crumbs could heat me up ….and I forgot all of the healing of the 3 weeks ….so glad that NC is now in place and established and there is only one direction to move forward now ….
Hi Rags Mom,
Many thanks for the reply.
I ended up in just the same place as you “too weak to leave my marriage without some guarantee of his feelings from OM”. Although I would never describe you as weak and you shouldn’t describe yourself that way. Being attracted to someone while still being married is not weak, its just a warning flag that you need to have a look at yourself and what is going on with your marriage. In fact, it takes a lot of strength to still be standing after all the pain and turmoil – you are not and never were weak. Also, going home and asking your husband for a divorce was brave because he could have just turned round and said yes!
I can imagine having a new job in a new place would be a nice relief, and exciting too, a real boost. I haven’t made that move and really don’t want to since I was promoted just a week before things finished with OM and I like my job and the people that now work for me very much. Everyday at 12 noon I get tense as OM always used to call me then, at his 7am, on his drive into work. I’m making a point of doing something else at that time that is just for me, whether its reading BR or going out for a walk in the fresh (grey, damp, cold) air. Yesterday I had to write an email to my team and cc OM and some of his colleagues on it. He replied to me and said “Thank you”, which before Christmas would have been enough to start of a chain of emails, IMs and texts that would have got painful very quickly, and I just deleted.
I’m feeling a lot calmer in the last day or so, lying in wait now for Nat’s Self Esteem course to start (starts 12th – got date wrong at first). On Monday I managed to tell my husband I was having counselling because I was feeling very sad and lonely and lost, which was quite a breakthrough for me to be able to admit that to him. He has been very supportive, which makes me feel like the AC I am. I also joined a walking group and signed up to go on a walk in a couple of weeks with them – its something I love doing but have not been able to find time for since I had my daughter.
Children are a great boost, my daughter is the greatest gift, and she is a great motivator to reclaim me and have a concentrated effort at trying to understand and (hopefully) save my marriage. She deserves me to be my best.
Colly, thank you so much for your reply …I cried a little when I read your words….thank you.
New job = I dont think anyone should move jobs cos they are unable to do NC at the old job, cos u will just feel resentful for months that you ended up altering your career course for someone who doesnt really care (honestly, guys who dont want to be with us in the same way we wanted, dont really care, do they ? despite all the ambiguous words) ….Achieve NC now that you have found BR ( if I had found this site months ago, i think i would have done things a much healthier way to get where I am now) ….move jobs only much later if u want to do it for you. I even worried if someone would find out abt ‘us’ flirting and report to HR and I would be dismissed etc, like u said I was scared of my own shadow and not thinking clearly at all from one day to the other.
sounds like the guy ur trying to get over is on the east coast too from the time diff. eager to hear how the self esteem course enhances ur NC efforts, I really want to take the course too – I am booking a weekend away at the end of the month for the family and hoping lookin forward to that will pass this month quickly – its months in and I am still worried about a setback and trying to put more time , space/distance between me and the past events.
Thanks Rags Mom,
Yes he’s East Coast. Argh, a new job would be good for me today. I’ve got this idea in my head that he is starting something up with a member of my team that works in the same office as him. I keep driving myself nuts today looking whether I can see whether they are both online or in a meeting together. This thought has been bugging me since before Xmas as I spoke with this employee of mine and she mentioned she’d been speaking to him about something else (something else not being the project we all worked on together). I know I shouldn’t care but I can’t help it…and it would be the absolute pits to have him leave his wife for one of my employees! I expect this is paranoia on my part.
Great post Nat for starting the New Year off right. I have to forget and not invest energy in an EUM-cousin of mine who I have in the past been extremely close to but it had to end. He is never married single, bachelor, closet gay and enjoys a high powered lifestyle and job. He is extremely wealthy and travels non-stop. I realized though, whenever I talked to him out of country, he is only calling me to talk about himself as it is the “Me Show.” When he is in country, he ignores me 100%. He actually let it slip out that he did not want to hear about my family, grown kids, or my job. I read another post on this website and realized I was a type of relative fallback girl/cheerleader, and I decided to mirror him. I only called back when he called me. I did not hear from him for several weeks! Then when he called, I made excuse and got off the phone when he started bragging on himself. NO conversation lasted more than 2 minutes, (that was fine, I thought, proof of his being selfish). He gave his immediate family (my relatives) highly generous Christmas gifts, of course I did not expect him to give me anything. Heard later through the family grapevine how extremely generous he was this Christmas to them, as they all got to brag on what he gave them all. I was not jealous of those gifts, I just had a dream and realized, well, why doesn’t he call them when he wants to have a “deep conversation”? First of all, they are all classically selfish too, and don’t care when he travels, can’t spell where he has been, and don’t follow any news so they are bores who never read. He has a cursory relationship with them, (they are my relatives too, mostly nice people but dense, never hurt anyone, but forget a real conversation with them, no), and I also have a cursory relationship with them – but up to that point, he had been different so we had been extremely close. I decided to “take myself off the menu” just to see how it would feel for me. It felt so peaceful, wonderful and liberating. I was no longer his lifelong cheerleader, I decided to let him call the dimwits to get the Ohhhs and ahhhs of his life. The result? He told his immediate family (my aunts and uncles) that I was “acting weird,” and that I was “jealous of his gifts to them.” I was not jealous at all, but realized he could see it this way, yes as I stopped talking to him exactly around the holidays. I don’t call him ever, but my family said, “oh, you should be nice, he is out of country and would like to hear from a close friend” so I emailed him and said basically, he had been selfish, he did not want to hear about me, and that when he was ready to have a back and forth, 50/50 relationship with me, where he asks about me and I ask about him, I would be willing to have that type of relationship with him in the future. His response? He said as I quote, “OK, so I will wait for you to call me.” wtf?? Today, I don’t call him at all, am peaceful, realize I have the capacity to make real friends and he is related to me, but that we are not classically “friends” as I released the effect that his selfishness had on me. I no longer think of the fun friendship I “lost,” but am able to move on and when the relatives speak of him flying here or there or whatever, I say, “I am happy for him.” I mean it, but that is as far as it goes in my mind. I am 100% free. I had to read MANY past posts to get to this point, I owe it all to this blog. Nat, thanks again. Peace.
Just in the past few weeks I have been able to see clear triggers that hamper progress on the NC / healing / moving on / getting clear perspective path ….Nat talks about this of course in all her articles, but we need to be aware of these TRIGGERS on a daily basis , (not just know it, but KNOW it)
Physical triggers –
1. Not getting enuf sleep. Make sure you get 8 hours sleep at nite, do what it takes to ensure this. Chances of a setback are higher when u are tired / sleep deprived.
2. Not eating right – whatever was your normal before all the drama happened (you dont have to go on an extreme juice cleanse etc, if its not ur thing, just whatever feels right). if you have changed so much, what u did before doesnt feel right anymore in terms of simple things like food patterns, find the new normal.Try a few new things, stick what feels healthy. If you gained a huge amount (I went from 52 kg to 57 kg in the past 5 months !!) during early NC or the months leading upto, work on getting to a weight that feels normal – it will feel like a forced effort at first but then will start being therapy in itself.
3. Find new routines during early NC – change your usual place for having coffee, lunch, getting hair done, nails done, you get my drift – the point is not to avoid the ‘ex’ or mutual friends, the idea is to avoid places that remind u of what u still think of us the happy times with him, at least during the healing period avoid these places and routines and hence creating a feeling that you are away from it all on a trip.
4.You dont have to feel like avoiding mutual friends is you ‘showing’ you are scared. and that u have to put on a front. I think we allowed ourselves to care too much and till u have emotional distance, physical distance is u stepping up or matching actions with words as Nat would say.
5. Avoid him also on social media of all kinds. no checking in the middle of the night ‘if hes still alive’ etc …
6. I think the knowledge that we have that these ppl we have interacted with are not healthy men is invaluable. No matter how ‘crazy’ we were in falling for them and how wrong our actions were, the fact that we cry about it in the middle of the night shows the other person has played a part in the demolition of our self esteem – none of us on here are crying over a crush on a celebrity / movie actor who we have never met or talked to. These are men who interacted with us on a daily basis for months even years and there was delusion and crazy making ON BOTH SIDES (if not all him for many of you).
6. Having said 5 above, also consider this – whether he be the biggest AC to walk this earth or the BEST PERSON EVER, in most cases the hurt and heartbreak happened the AC with all his actions was trying to say ‘ I dont like you that much and you are still around cos u dont really like yourself much either’ …..looking back its so simple to identify when the man isnt into us and hence wont take an effort to be nice and want to do his all to keep us – A. MM who dont leave their wife months after you have conveyed you are waiting and ready. B OM who dont jump in joy cos you are willing to leave everything for them. C. Single men who dont evidence a clear wish to progress the relationship ie progressive interest in increasing levels of intimacy (saying dont leave your hairbrush here after you have spent the nite etc)……
Hindsight may feel useless at the moment, but a life lived absolutely emotionally painfree from this day on sounds good doesnt it ?? never too late for self awareness and relationship smarts.
This is so good and I’m going to print it to read again. It is hard to accept the Financial Ruin after the heart and emotions finally calm down. You’ve finally accepted that you don’t have the man/ relationship….and you are broke and in financial trouble. Icing on the cake. (frown face emoticon here).
Oh LilDebby, I know about that one – the ex-fiance left me financially cleaned out as well.
‘I learned the truth at twenty-three
That love consisted of some git who took all my money’
as Janis Ian so memorably DIDN’T sing …
Yes, Janis Ian…such a beautiful voice and singer. Lots of the female singers of the time were really “going through it… one was in Love with a politician who kept her on the side, another was in love with a vocalist-heroin addict. Those lessons/ words in songs were not as straight-forward about teaching us lessons about how to manage our personal relationships; in that they romanticized the situation possibly? – not quite like what we have here on Baggage Reclaim.
I kept many good practices such as not dating or fooling around with married men, not letting men abuse me verbally or physically or using me in anyway, and etc.
It seems that I had the viewpoint that ALL PEOPLE were similar to me; that they were good. I had to discover the hard way that there are some really damaged and mentally ill, and evil people out here. I didn’t have enough guidelines to protect myself from the bad relationships. Now I know better. Carry on Ethelreda!!
Hi Ethelreda,
I love your posts, and also had a forgiveness mantra. I’d say “I forgive you. You didn’t intentionally mean to hurt me”. (didn’t say that when a different guy did want to hurt me).
Saying mantra in car, and then singing about everything I was grateful for, while on morning ride to work, helped me start workday in positive manner. It works!
I hope everyone here has a peaceful day. Thanks again Nat!
PS. I could have had a luxury vacation in Hawaii by using the money I spent on a therapist, who did not help me, when I was getting over a relationship with a real psychopath. And, when we all count the days we were unable to work cause we were home crying or healing from abuse.. It adds up.
All so true @rags mom & thank you! I think you’re so right about just not that into you. Perhaps the problem (for me and others) is that you’re already so far down the rabbit hole of feelings sometimes by the time they start to give you these signs and pull back that it’s really hard to see it and get out. That’s what happened in my case and what is so embarrassing later.
But whatever! I am changing my language today. No more self-anger and embarrassment! I’m also going to try not stewing in anger as much today too. They have our part and we have ours and the earlier we recognize that these two things were not in line, the faster we can move away and ok if we forgive. I think you’re OM did really care about you, but it sounds like it was all a bit too much for him. And the stress of it all! That’s enough to make anyone back it up (a phone call from your angry hubby? Yikes!). I wouldn’t go flagella ting yourself about OM and his feelings. He does sound like he really cared/loved you, but life was in the way here. As for your marriage and your looking elsewhere.. These things are normal! Not saying that they always need to be acted on, but the noticing and strong feelings for others happens in 100% of relationships I’m sure. It sounds like you were a really really good wife for a long time, so don’t beat yourself up! There’s only so long we can go without love before we will fall for someone new. And it sounds like that’s what happened in your case. Glad hubby has turned around and is working on things. But please don’t beat yourself up!
I’ve gotta get ready for work, but will be in touch later. Back to the office..
Feel like I need to apologise for coming on here so much today …to Nat and her readers ….was a bad day in terms of dwelling on the recent past a lot ….but I was no where getting tempted to break NC …
what turned out to be our last real conv –
me : I’m sorry I cant just be a friend and i have accepted we cant be more either, so good bye, god bless.
Him : I always liked you and valued our friendship and wasnt looking to end this. But your behaviour this month has been borderline crazy so bye.
No more.
I know Im a long way from healed and being a whole , sensible person again – I have acknowledged as well that the healing of me is overdue by many many more years than I first thought (over critical tho loving mom etc) ….but I count amongst my biggest success right now that I am on here venting rather than emailing him.
Thanks again to Nat and her readers.
Wow @rags mom.. I am feeling the exact same way! First about posting so much here and second, about already wanting to break NC! Haha, apparently this is a common experience 🙂
As for your posting a lot, don’t worry about it! I think we are both early stages of this stuff and its therapeutic to get it out and have people to talk to. Those who find it annoying (hopefully none) don’t have to read. And for the rest, it is probably reassuring to see that others go through the same experiences. Post away!
As for wanting to break NC, that’s normal too. Hell, I am sitting in my office 3 days after finding out that the idiot MM I was in love with was busy getting his wife pregnant the whole time we were together and now is likely laughing at me.. and I still feel like I want to email him and say, “hey! how’s it going down there?” and chat like we used to. What the hell?!!
Don’t worry, I haven’t and I won’t, but NC can be really tough some days.
My analysis of your last convo: you had to make a decision after much agony and waffling (much like my MM did to me) and he was likely waiting to hear what you had to say and for your decision and thoughts all along and then was probably pretty hurt to get this message (as I was from my MM in Dec when he said something very similar).
It hurt a lot! This guy’s response sounds like he was angry and hurt and protecting himself and his ego and telling you you that you’ve been crazy and bye. A very cold and hard message to receive, but it sounds like it was sent out of hurt and anger (which may or may not have passed by now).
Despite feeling for you, it is comforting to hear you say that you miss your OM and want to break NC because it makes me think that perhaps this is what my MM feels right now sitting in his office. If your OM is anything like me, then he is probably missing you and wishing you could all break NC too.. but only if the situation was different now and you could live happily every after! Good luck with the rest of the day. Sending love & strength!!
ps. @rags mom.. if you were going to break NC, what was it that you want to say?
Thanks Leanne for your kind words….hope your day is going well at work today. I am working my way thru Nats older posts and her words are a godsend….read those whenever jerkovitch passes by ….
OMG colly !! …I thought my situation had been unique but the resemblance is uncanny…. I too twice worried abt him getting close with other girls in the team and used to check their online status etc….self humiliation much? ….strangely the thought of him bonding with someone in the US team I could live with but I desperately wanted to be his UK port of call…I feel nauseous even now months later.. I warned Leanne abt this too. Do NOT tell him what your insecure thoughts abt how u feel abt him cosying upto another colleague ….THAT WAY LIES MADNESS…and loss of the last vestiges of dignity …..BTW. youre reference to online status indicates office chat tool . We had the same communication channel.. im actuallly intrigued if you work for the same office I used to work for… does your company start with the letter B too? At least know OM isnt the same person lol ur guy is married and is 31….paranioa fits me too….
Oh Colly now im wondering if you are husband or OM pretending to be a woman who understands what im going thru…haha its time I took Nats advice and ate and slept
Ha ha, Rags Mom I am definitely a woman and a wife who is in turmoil about the OM and her husband, and I don’t work for a company starting with the letter B. We do have IM in the office although we didn’t use it during our affair, we used a different one we both downloaded that couldn’t be watched, plus many many hours of FaceTime, and some working weeks away in various locations.
I won’t be asking him about starting something with someone else because that would mean I had to break NC and I’m not doing that. I hate the thought of him starting another affair and/or leaving his wife for them, but the thing that really gets me is the thought of him with one of my team, as in one of my employees. I have to confess I had this suspicion before Christmas and did confront him them. It was very weird because he wasn’t even annoyed by the accusation. He just told me “Both you and I know I will never be able to replace you, you know how I feel about you.” Urgh, shuddering at the thought of that conversation.
Yesterday was a weird day, I ended up sitting in my office talking to his boss for an hour. Today I’m going to try really hard to quit the online snooping, it never feels good.
I too feel bad for spouting on here too much, and also that I am not the wise owl that so many posters on here are. I’m just telling myself it is a much healthier thing to do than breaking NC and that everyone on here has been through the stage that you, me and Leanne are at.
COlly, your OM actually does sound really into you, i venture to say ….a guy who wasnt into you would get upset about you being possessive (any sign of us being disturbed by them talking to other women even if you branded that as work ethics concern with her being ur reportee) ….have you had a really serious conversation with him about why he is not ready to leave his marriage and be with you ?? I know the answer should be obvious – ie he has kids etc, but is he hoping to just continue an affair with u forever ? thats not fair to you when , as naturally women do, u start wanting more, or do u think that might be enuf for u as well ? sorry trying to understand what the trigger for NC was, wanting more from him ie both of u to leave your marriages ? or just the extra marital aspect was getting too guilt ridden and you wanted a clean start with ur marriage / husband…what do u really want Col ?
Rags Mom,
My ex OM could say things that made it sound like he was very into me, but the actions never matched up to the words. I spent too much time betting on potential with him.
I had many a serious conversation with him about us being together and his answer was that he couldn’t leave his wife because his family would all hate him, his wife would make sure he never saw his kids again and that they’d hate him forever, and that he couldn’t just leave without giving his wife a chance to change (he alleged she was abusive). He finished with me in the end, but then I had got to the point where I did not want to continue in an affair, which I told him, and neither did he, far too painful.
A few weeks post break up his story changed to him saying he was broken and needed to fix himself and that he had given up trying to change his wife – trouble is I think he thinks if he changes she will change into wife of the century. I asked him again to be with me when things were clearly not working out for him and he told me he had to fix himself on his own – which confused me because staying with an allegedly abusive wife isn’t trying to fix things on your own.
At the end of the day I’ll never really know the truth, and what I do know is the actions he took. He chose to finish with me and stay with his wife, that is all I need to know and focus on. (Plus there was all the ACness trying for a baby with his wife while having an affair with me – not the type of action that would make you feel comfortable about building a life with someone).
I am NC because its just too painful having any interaction with him, and I can’t hope to rebuild my life unless I am NC. I think he is probably about NC with me for the same reason. Its all very tragic. If he turned round to me tomorrow and said he’d made a mistake and that he wanted to be with me I doubt it would work out, too much water under the bridge, trust broken, and why would I want to be someones second choice?
What do I want? Peace is what I want right now, and a happy fulfilled life for my daughter and for me. I need to fix myself to learn who I really am and what I really want.
I would bet that he is lying when he says:
–his wife is a mean woman
–he doesn’t really love her
–he never has sex with her
–he loves you best
–he will leave her “someday”
–you are his “soul mate.”
Men like him say these things to keep girls like us hanging around. They are liars. Flush!
Oregon Girl,
Thanks, its way worse than that:
– he said he loved both of us (even though he was cheating on both of us with the other one)
– he was trying for a baby with her
– he said he didn’t know how to ever leave even though he recognised he needed too
– he told me he loved me more than anyone but there was more to his life than us
AND I STAYED FOR 3 MONTHS AFTER LEARNING THIS!
I flush myself!
This really made me smile. It’s great that you have such a clear vision of the situation now. Best, V.
In regard to “…your OM actually does sound really into you, i venture to say ….” etc. Really have to say, unfortunately it is this kind of thinking that feeds fantasy and hinders a person from facing the reality of their situation. If he wanted to be with her, he would. His actions, including his recent fertility treatment show otherwise. He is in a contract of marriage with his WIFE. He is emotionally, physically any which way…completely unavailable.
@ leanne…oh man in the past I heart u ‘s and virtual hugs were unstoppable after NC break..all just what good friends do apparently . I wont break NC again and neither will he ….did I mention he has since after we mmet gotten a sweet 24 year old gf.. yeah sorry I overlooked that cos she didn’t fit into my f ed up version of bella edward jacob ….
I read the article, which was very well written. But forgiveness is the hardest thing to accept. How can I forgive my parents, when they ruined my life? They are the cause of why I am where I am in life today. I’m a victim of life circumstances, which they created and I had to suffer through. They are raging Narcissists, who made my life living hell. And I look back and feel extreme rage, especially since it still impacts my life today. I don’t think I will ever be able to forgive them?
Yep I wrote about this above Kelley I hear you.
Lea. I woke up again to type this….I seriously doubt that Jim sitting in his office and ‘laughing at you’…. I don’t know what hes doing or thinking but I genuinely count gloating out…. weak idiot maybe and not deserving of either u or his wife or baby …but not yet evil. Dont make it harder on your self than it has to be ….and does it matter end of day if he is laughing or missing you and crying …u cant be with him doll. MORON cudnt keep his thing in pants while ‘trying to make up his mind’. Likewise. It does not matter if OM is laughing in relief after getting rid of me or missing desp. Im married with a kid and he rightly so wants to be with women 10 years younger than me. We are on step 2 as u said this morning ….no looking back….
I didn’t read through the entire post, I think forgiveness is one of the toughest hurdles to overcome in life. You can be the most secure person, but if someone you cared about double crosses you, it’s like wtf? You can move on, and give up hope of any kind of relationship with that person, but you may never forget how their shitiness made you feel. It’s their lack of character that you won’t forget. To me forgiveness is more about accepting that they’re a doucheb@g, and being able to move on despite that fact. My thoughts 🙂
I’m with you, Demke. It’s hard to articulate, but I guess I don’t start from the position of forgiveness being a thing that is mine to give, other than to myself.
When I’m no longer angry, hurt, resentful, or whatever, and all those negative, harmful and stressful feelings have been repaired, and the situation is let go, that’s as a result of my own internal processes. It’s right, it’s good, and it’s my own work. I did that. But it’s not something I can share with, or bestow upon, the person who hurt me. It’s not that quantifiable or tangible a thing inside me, and it’s not separate from me, where I can mentally apply it, like a tin of salve, and smooth it over my perception of another individual, and say ‘there, this changes things’.
My perception of the other individual, or the situation, remains the same. They are who they are, it was what it was, and it is what it is. I feel differently about it, absolutely, thanks to that internal process. Memories and cues that hurt like a hot knife through the heart two years ago stir not one tiny atomic particle of emotion now, and haven’t done so for well over a year. I don’t even really make the mental connections any more that prompt thoughts of the psychopathic assclown — it’s a rare event. But perhaps that’s why I can completely dispassionately and objectively look at his behaviour today — pick it up in my hand and turn it round and examine it 360-degrees in the way an archaeologist identifies a chunk of hominid matter — and say… Yep. Shit’s unforgiveable. Not my problem.
And I shrug and turn to the Arts & Culture section.
Ahh.. I broke NC :(. Fortunately it turned out relatively ok. But I supposed it’s somewhat unavoidable at work. I ran into MM in the hallway and he said hi and smiled like there’s nothing wrong. I said hi and tried to walk past. he scowled and looked hurt and upset but then turned and followed me for a sec. He said “hey.. are you mad at me? (Hello!). He looked genuinely confused.
And for some reason I said no! (I am so weak!) He asked if we were going to be able to be friends again in the future? and i paused for a minute but then for some reason I said, “I don’t know, maybe. But I really don’t know that we can.” Then I said I have to run and left. He looked genuinely sad and confused. Wtf? Is he really confused by this??
The good news it makes me feel better to see that he is upset. Not because I am a sadist, but because at least I know he cares. The bad news is I am really worried for myself that in going to slip back into breaking no contact again!
Why is it so hard to remember the pain these people put us through? (even just days ago!). I would never make out with this guy again. But I am worried we are going to slip into a casual friendship again (which is exactly what he wants). I know it would just be too painful for me cus I don’t want to hear about their life and I don’t want him to think that his behaviour was okay and didn’t hurt me or anyone. God give me strength!
Leanne,
That doesn’t count as breaking NC (not unless you were deliberately stalking the hallway because you knew he would show up there). It sounds to me like you handled the situation with dignity, you were polite, you made no commitments, and you got away as quickly as you could. I’m glad you told him you weren’t upset with him too, as why should he have the satisfaction of knowing he still has you emotionally? Well done Leanne.
Now for him…him being upset shows he cares about himself and his bruised ego. I’ve had very similar experiences with my ex MM who just didn’t seem to get it that I could be upset with him after how he treated me. My MM had no empathy and neither does yours, all they think about is themselves.
You’re doing great, just keep it up. I really feel for you being in the same building, it makes it so much harder. Stay strong.
Oh Leanne, I think when he asked if u both could still ‘stay friends’ you should have said given a more definitive answer and said no. Hence, forcing him to clean up his act as it were. Not saying he doesnt have a choice to ‘choose’ to stay in his marriage and still want a platonic friendship with you, in theory , but he hasnt gone about it right. he never came clean with his wife and he hasnt treated you right at all either.
Think Julia Roberts at the end of Pretty Woman – when Rich offered to ‘keep’ her in a seperate house and visit her weekends or some crp like that – did the movie end with her saying ‘ im not sure, maybe …’ …..no she threw his money back at his face, and packed her bags to go study and make something of her life on her own and …then he came chasing after her with an offer that was acceptable and respectable. for her to be his girlfriend and likely his wife. so even hkers apparently have more self esteem than we do – i know im comparing a totally diff situation, but the principle was the same, he texts u that hes impregnanted his wife when he knows ur in love with him and then he looks hurt and confused in the hallway ?? I think you are going to put urself through all the pain i did for year after first trying NC , before you …im sorry to say, leave the job maybe and start the healing process….
Leanne, IMO, yours was an excellent answer to his ‘can we be friends’. It shows you are now thinking about yourself first, which is as it should be. You don’t know if you can, you don’t know if you even want to because it is not the best choice for YOU. He WILL talk about his happy life and his future and all the while he’ll be looking for signs that it is hurting you to hear how happy he is. It will be Ego Stroke City for this dude to see you in emotional pain or turmoil. You’ll be smiling through pain trying to pretend the hurt away. Why would you put yourself in that situation?
Your happiness that he “cares” is your hunger for validation talking. “I did mean something to him!” is what you are thinking. If this man cared for your well-being, he’d leave you alone. He cares for his ego. Your NC means his game isn’t tight enough to hold onto his harem. He did a drive-by check, trying to reel you back in. Don’t let that happen, Leanne.
Make this man history in your life. For good. I guarantee that the longer you are NC, the less he will matter to you. It does take a little longer to reach the point where you won’t care if you matter to him. I think that is because those of us who are most susceptible to AC-ism and EU-ism grew up craving external validation.
To me, the forgiveness this article talks about is meant to be applied to ourselves. We need to forgive ourselves for not loving ourselves. Look at where we hurt ourselves and say “I’m not doing that to myself again.” Hurting ourselves includes loving and giving of ourselves to people who did not love us back the way we wanted. Decide that we are going to choose what is best for ME first, without fear of what others may think, without needing their OK or approval. Decide that it is OK for me to be the winner in my interactions and it is OK to walk away from unsatisfying interactions, or at least, give them little weight in how I choose to live my life. So, I don’t need YOU to be my champion, because I am going to be my champion.
wow elgie R….that was powerfully written
Every time you are forced to talk to him at work, bring up his wife. How is your wife? How is your pregnant wife? Etc. Keep her between you and he will back off.
I’ve used this on married men or men that have a girlfriend, they get it.
Brilliant! I’ve done this too and it REALLY WORKS.
I was given some advice once – ‘Never make friends with a married man. Always make friends with a married COUPLE’.
This is a really good principle to adopt and stick to. Meet the wife/girlfriend, if you can. Talk to her. Ask after her.
Even if it’s just a casual, superficial relationship, make the relationship with the COUPLE, not the single.
Yikes – having said that, I suddenly remembered my own workplace’s resident dysfunctional woman, who was/is besotted with our male boss.
It’s never gotten physical; it’s like a schoolgirl crush gone berserk, but it got weird at one point, and so he actually got his wife and she to meet. She then became obsessed with trying to work her way into his family.
I think it’s calmed down now, but this thing has gone on for over 10 years now.
So DON’T meet the wife AFTER the romance, is what I’m saying!
If you meet her BEFORE, when you first meet the man, or as soon as you can after you meet a married man you might find attractive, then it works better and can be a deterrent/safety thing.
lovely elgie
Leanne, I think your response was perfect. Any response where you dont end up pandering to his ego is perfect. Any response that doesnt put you in a bad position going forward is perfect – even though this interaction made you feel bad in the moment, it is the adult mature thing to do. Sure it felt awkward – adult/mature doesnt mean it won’t feel awkward. Its doing the right thing regardless of the consequences, or how you feel. But because its the right thing to do.
The thing this guy pulled? Following you because he saw you ignored him? Classic high school insecurity. Not that I liked him before, but now I pity him, what a classless clueless tacky guy.
I was very susceptible to mean girls. Had a screaming match with someone I considered a close friend. Things were said on both sides. However, on the plus side – she had a party. Asked one of her friends to invite me – so she didn’t feel confident approaching me but it was a nice gesture. I followed up by asking her to coffee – sort of saying lets have a low key coffee first so we can stand to see each other. We were able to be social after that, though never good friends again and then she did another mean girl thing (this time I was not responsible at all). Some mean girls are just always like that.
I tell the story to say that if two people go through something awkward or a falling out and still have to hang out together, there is an adult way to ease the tension – you go out to coffee, you awkwardly show the other person you mean well and want to put it behind you, you decide to be civil. In the case of a romantic relationship which was a secret, I dont think there is even a point to such a conversation – its just drama creation.
So for him to tag along behind you suggests that he wants to pretend he’s a great guy, though he knows he’s a sh1t and he wants to pretend nothing happened while at the same time he misses those ego strokes. He’s astounded that you’re moving on and are awkward around him – sorry to say I doubt he really cares for you as he is married! He cannot care for you! Every ‘caring’ thing from him is a lie, and to be distrusted. You have to realize that even wondering ‘oh does/did he care for me, does he?’ is just the craziness talking, its a pointless question. He is married, and the wife is pregnant. There is no friendship left, no relationship, nothing.
Anyway, dont ascribe him any good motives. And that was a good reaction from you. Keep it up!
There are some that I can truly forgive. My parents, coming from damaged homes themselves, were probably doing the best that they had the ability to do. My job was to study their lives, learn from their experience and not repeat the cycle. My remaining bro, out there somewhere, could never do this and, at least a decade ago, was a broken, embittered person, and continued the cycle of abuse to his own (unwanted) children. There are some I have trouble forgiving, as their behavior toward me was deliberate and calculated. My grad advisor, who ignored my saying my life was being threatened because of my work, yet took first authorship on all papers, effectively creating a situation where I had to leave but was effectively screwed out of another research job. The AC who deliberately covered up a simultaneous rship. The step sibling who abused and could’ve killed me. These are deliberate, conscious acts. For them, I don’t forgive per se but use the traditional method of”giving them my back”, literally turning away, or refusing to acknowledge them in any way. Psychologically stating”you no longer exist”. In the old times where community was everything, this was huge, worse than killing someone as you needed community to survive. No drama, no confronting someone defensive or who won’t get it anyway, just “you’re gone”. Obviously, folk not given teachings won’t understand (actually some do, usually aware, mutual friends), but this is for my well-being.
Yep Noquay I’m with you on this the old back turning no contact works wonders but I’m not sure that this and my anger towards them helps me for long and I would like to find a safe way to release that anger and really move on – I’ve done it with the ex but not with family who I know also will never take responsibility but are actually closer to me…
I feel it drags me down sometimes – especially in those moments where I am frightened girl again and feeling its all my fault – I did this or that and deserve what I got or how I am being played …and desperately trying to work out what I should do to work it out or save me from THEIR harm. My NEGATIVE MO to dealing with things is coming back over and over again and its a real struggle that I suspect may be altered by finding a way to deal with my anger for them (and myself) in a proactive safe way? They still have access to me so even though I’ve put a hell of a distance between them and me ie hundreds of miles and no phone – they have still turned up uninvited and when they weren’t invited in – they went to neighbours or other family members – to get to me – later. So I feel its harder to break free from them and therefore possibly why its harder for me to deal with my anger and forgive?
Oona, “They still have access to me so even though I’ve put a hell of a distance between them and me ie hundreds of miles and no phone – they have still turned up uninvited and when they weren’t invited in – they went to neighbours or other family members – to get to me – later. So I feel its harder to break free from them and therefore possibly why its harder for me to deal with my anger and forgive?” Oh, wow, that sounds terrible. Sounds like they are not respecting your boundary and you are understandably angry about it. I think it would be very challenging to forgive someone when they keep peeing on your boundary.
Yep and they do it while looking completely innocent to others ie charming.
But I’m not going to let it beat me…
Good! You know the truth and you respect your boundary -keeping it firm, that’s what counts. You cannot control what they do, only your response to what they do. Go Oona, go!
Oona
I dunno. With family, I got to a point where I needed to emotionally distance myself entirely. Maybe because this happened at a really early age (10), it was easier. From then on, till I bailed at 17, I was emotionally somewhere else. I learned these folk, though blood, had no ability to function as anything remotely resembling a normal person with normal boundaries.Even turning ones back is damned hard but it gives you at least the opportunity to take the higher ground. It’s like; no drama, but I’m outta here. What does me in, and it sounds like you too, with your family and neighbor, are the either intentional or non-intentional reminders of betrayal, in your case family, mine, the at work AC, and in my case, perhaps yours, that the wrong-doers have been able to move on, have their lack of ethics and character totally forgiven by all and sundry (ironic given this Post). I don’t know what you’ve dealt with with family, Oona, but this week, I got to hear ACs current rship validated by no less than our President who then wondered aloud why I was less than forthcoming and a tad shortish about my own holidays. Here I am still horribly alone, have worked my posterior off to improve both workplace and community and now, very ironically, am now perceived as the “bad guy”, negative, a problem. Yep, I give my back but it still hurts like hell, especially when I repeatedly hear that kinda crap over and over and really cannot disclose why I am upset. Sometimes Oona, we have to absent ourselves entirely, never see the folk involved again, ever, before we really can forgive.
Oona
I guess the point I was trying to make in my stupid rant was that, until boundaries are respected, it is recognized that we too have a right to our feeling our feelings, regardless of whether others approve of them or not, that we, as fellow humans, yearn for love, companionship, same as everyone else, we are going to be angry and that anger may well be justified. Forgiveness, letting go, emotionally erasing those who do not respect us occurs when there is enough distance between us and the hurt, the folk that caused the hurt, the situation.
Leanne, sorry, I realised afterward that my pretty woman analogy was inappropriate ….sorry that came out real harsh …i know it takes a lot of strength to do what u did yesterday ….but still not cutting enuf a response for what he did, was just my feel …after all this heartbreak and agony, is that what u really wanted / want …to be his friend ….if thats all u want, then more power to u….
Leanne , Colly and others,
I got selected for champion role here in my area of specialisation at the new job ….3 months in …this is the kinda thing that would have had me messaging OM in the past …anything good or bad news , straight to him ….this time I let the impulse come and go for a few minutes ..then i texted husband and told him …he suggested dinner out celebration this weekend and I have that to look forward to ….cant believe NC is still hard after all of this ….
can someone pls remind me what a HORRIBLE person i would be if i ever did break NC….the betrayal to reach out to someone who DOES NOT want me around …who if I really cared about, I would wish him well and leave him well alone ….Yeah.
Rags Mom,
Congratulations, that is such good news for you, what a boost. Please let your self esteem take an upwards turn for that, because in spite of everything, you still impressed in your new job.
I really do understand the urge to tell OM about it, I feel that too all the time, good news and bad, particularly work stuff. I had a similar situation last week, although very sad news, I learned a member of my team is VERY seriously ill. Like you I let the feeling pass and then told my husband.
You would not be a horrible person if you broke NC, you would just be human. Do keep up the NC though, if you have both decided that you have no future together then being in contact only means torture.
I’m really struggling today btw, I’m getting the urge to break NC, I won’t, but the urge is there. I think having a full week back at work, being NC all week, and me snooping and working out he’s been offline since Tuesday has me creating lots of hurtful scenarios in my head that are making me want to reach out and get validation from him – like checking he hasn’t forgotten me. I feel so sad.
I just have to keep remembering that no matter what he has said about how he will always love me, at the end of the day he has chosen to not be with me. Also, that I had cherry picked the best bits of him and was in love with that, not the real him as a whole.
colly, if you’re snooping after him on social media then you aren’t really NC.
Wow yes, good catch Memphista, thank you, my self deception is quite something.
Thank you my dears.. So so helpful to hear your thoughts :). I frickin love this site! Last night I fell asleep thinking, “maybe he still has strong feelings for me (external validation much?) Maybe we could still be friends” (ahh.. No!). It’s so easy to forget these charmers and what their behaviour really means. I don’t want and I don’t need this man as a friend! And I think I can truly get to the point where I don’t care about him. But I gotta get through more time NC I guess.
@colly and @Elgie R.. Thanks for your support and your assessment of my response. I’ve been stewing about whether I should have said something stronger, reminding him how hurtful he’s been. But I like hearing that this was a good response. I don’t want to boost his ego any further. I hope he’s confused by me. It is so hard to be strong in conversations and it want to apologize and say sorry if that sounds hurtful, etc. The guys don’t seem to feel the need to always be nice and make sure we’re feeling ok, so why should we?
@rags mom.. No offense taken. I don’t think there’s a chance for a happy ending here, and I’ve already told him he hurt me a lot so probably best not to say it again (back in dec). I think he already got the chance to hero-up, but didn’t. Who knows what he’s thinking, but regardless, he’s not in a position to chase me and treat me right. I think good riddance is the only answer here. I do wish there was a way we could be friends (in some ways) but it’s too hella painful to hear about his life. In other ways, I still feel angry and am glad he’s not in my life! I am looking for a new job hard.. Hopefully something comes up this spring.
@ElgieR .. “your NC means his game isn’t tight enough to hold onto his harem.” Lol.. So funny! Totally puts this interaction in perspective. Thanks!
Man, I love this site.. So truly helpful. Thanks for your support everyone!
Ladies Colly, Leanne, Rags Mum et all – I believe Natalie has termed this emotional crack – you are addicted and you have to wean yourself off – the best way is always going to be cold turkey but if not? as much distance from it as you can handle is the next best thing – and that’s emotional(thinking about them, rerunning scenarios in your head and making them work for you) as well as physical distance. Good luck to you all.
Natalie, thank you for posting this because it’s the topic I’ve been struggling with. I can relate to other people’s post about forgiving someone who hurt me and actually committing the act of forgiveness. It’s been a year that my ex broke things off via text and how the relationship ended have been bothering me. Took time to myself like meditating, hiking, and even saw a therapist to help me grieve after the breakup. Accepting, forgiving, and let go is the most difficult process of moving on. 8 months later I broke my NC and replying to her email of her confessing the real reason we broke up. We both confess our mishaps of our roles in the relationship, but I made a mistake of interpreting that forgiving is about who is right and attempt to be friends again. After many attempts to reconcile and trying to be friends, I was shot down with no reply and weeks to months to reply back. I realize I still put her on the pedestal and wasn’t taking responsibility of my feelings. Took a step back and realize what was influencing my way of thinking, that I’m still not over her. Reading this post made me realize that I have to commit and be consistent of forgiving and have to let go. It will be tough but have to focus on me and help me move forward. Thank you Natalie for this!
Hi Natalie,
First of all, I never had the opportunity to reach out and express my gratitude! I’ve read all of your past posts and bought your books. This recent entry about forgiveness is very timely for me. Your work has been very helpful with my breakup and healing process.
I would like to share my background and hopefully some readers will learn from my experience. I love reading the comments after your posts because it makes me feel like I’m not crazy and there so many women or even men out there who were in the same boat as I was. Not that I feel gleeful about people’s painful experience but it’s more of a comforting fact to know that one can move on and be strong about pushing forward and still feel that hope of finding something substantial and real.
I am in my early 30s and dated this guy who was about 7 years my senior. As I was just getting out of an amicable yet stale marriage…he was the first man that I dated and he just swept me off my feet. He did the fast forwarded move on me. I admit that I allowed myself to get caught in it because it was flattering. Being stuck in a passionless marriage…well, it wasn’t really difficult to be swayed. He knew how to treat me right. He knew when to be vulnerable…he introduced me to his close circle of friends (we’ve only been dating for 5 weeks at that point)…we shared common interests and had a blast spending time together. I saw the signs that he was Emotionally Unavailable (he mentioned before that he gets bored easily and that he has dated incredible women that there’s no point settling – now I wonder if there were so wonderful and it didn’t work out with him…then what is the common theme here?)
I was so absorbed by the high of passion, romantic ideals and well, lust…that when he started to pull away…and finally admitted that we’re on different pages and that he is not able to give what I need or reciprocate on the same level…well, I was more than shocked. I was devastated. The good part is that, I have a high self-esteem and since going through a divorce and reading all your posts…I have promised myself not to accept crumbs. I wanted something more substantial and meaningful. So right then and there…I opted out. He wanted to be friends and I respectfully declined as I know better. He wasn’t a bad person, however, I will acknowledge what he did was hurtful. Overall, the breakup was dignified and I have never broken my NC and he hasn’t reached out to me either which I am grateful for because he is obviously respecting my decision. My ego is hurt but I know I will get over it.
But no matter how dignified or how drama-free the breakup was, it is still a breakup. I’m still feeling lots of remorse and doing a lot of self-blaming. Reading your books taught me that the grieving process is not linear. One day, I’m feeling confident and good and the next day, I feel defeated. I’ve kept myself busy and pursued different interests but yet he still lingered in my head.
When I read this post, it finally clicked on me and gave me some sort of closure. One missing component of my quest to move on is my will to forgive him and myself. I want to forgive him for sweeping me up with such great intensity but when it got too real he bailed out. I want to forgive myself for being compulsive and risking my heart due to superficial reasons such as good chemistry and shared interests. I forgive myself for living in a fantasy world when clearly there was a disconnect somewhere but failed to notice. I forgive him, I genuinely do, and in doing so, I feel a sudden change in my disposition. I am no longer bitter and driving myself crazy thinking that it sucks that I’m still not over him yet he’s probably screwing around and moving on to the next. It no longer felt like I had to prove something to myself and made me accept that it’s okay that I still feel sad as long as I don’t stay sad. In forgiving myself, I am also trying to accept my vulnerabilities and that to treat myself with kindness and care. With that I am finding that there is a sense of inner peace.
So, again, thank you and I wish you all the best! I will keep on reading your posts as I am certain it will help me build a healthy relationship on my future relationships.
Thank you so much for this well expressed thoughts. Letting go and forgiveness really takes a lot of guts to do, but once you are in it and realized that it has been affecting your own life more than anybody else then it’s time to move on, focus on your dreams and surround yourself with supportive friends and families who value your worth. Great post!
Leanne,
I agree with everyone else that it’s not that he cares, it’s for his own ego that he’s a good guy and still has power over you. I told
My ex to leave me alone and delete my number and he would refuse (his words) because he “cares” so much. Truly carrying about us would be respecting our wishes and allowing us to heal and move on. Last we spoke he made the redic comment “you know how much I cared about you. Can’t you honestly say nobody else has ever or will ever care about you as much as me? I will always be there for you”. If somebody who entertained other women’s attention behind my back while lying to me and somebody who lead me on for 2 years with future faking and someone who won’t respect my wishes of letting me move on is the most care I’ll ever get, I might as well take my life lol. I had to laugh when he said that.
I don’t know @rags mom, this is probably not what one is suppose to say in these circumstances, but sometimes reaching out can be a nice gesture. In your case, it doesn’t sound like you were an AC, just unavailable to be in a relationship with this guy. It sounds like you hurt him. Maybe if he’s moved on and no longer has feelings, But even still, what would be the point? Are you wanting to be friends? Do you really think that’s possible? Otherwise, I would leave well enough alone. Not out of any big moral reason, but because it will likely lead to pain for one or both of you.
This is what I am struggling with about the concept of a friendship with my MM. First of all, he hurt me really badly. But that aside, it is still too difficult to chat and be friends because we either still like each other but can’t be together (which is sad) or I still like him and he likes his wife (of course) which is just painful. If your OM has truly moved on, then it might not be painful for him to talk to you anymore, but that would likely very painful for you! to hear indifference in his voice.. So hard! and on top of all that, maybe he still doesn’t want to talk to you, (which would also be painful for you).
So all in all, a long-winded answer here. I don’t think breaking NC in this situation is the most horrible thing ever, but I don’t think it’ll get you what you want. It sounds like you are still craving love though.. How are your feelings towards hubby these days?
@rags mom, please disregard my first bit.. I was just rambling and made more sense by the end. Please please don’t break NC without serious thought as to what would be best for both you, OM, and your hubby.
Thanks guys. So helpful to hear your thoughts. I think one of the saddest things right now (with NC and clarity) is realizing what a turkey this guy is. I suppose it is better than staying in love with someone who doesn’t exist, but now that I’ve seen a bit more and heard your thoughts and comments, I feel like I’m starting to grieve the man I thought he was. I’m sure this is a good thing. Day 22 success without contact. I am missing him but so glad its over too.
Argh, why can’t I stop looking to see if ex MM is online at work, I’m driving myself crazy. My need for validation is so high after a week without any contact from him. Sorry BR readers that I’m so hopeless!
Hello everyone. I’m back after finally making the leap to purchase a new laptop for Xmas. So now I will be able to resume posting as well as reading what you all have to say. Natalie, thank for this one. I’ve come a long way from when I started on BR, due to Natalie, my therapist and striving to achieve deeper relationship with God. My pastor recently gave a sermon on forgiveness and it affected me so deeply that I thought about the one and only person who I never imagined myself forgiving. My cousin. She moved in with me when I was recuperating for a long illness. The plan was that since she was on the verge of being homeless, having no where to live, her presence would benefit us both. Well, little did I know she would turn out to be a drug-addicted heartless leech who almost sucked me dry mentally, emotionally and financially. The story is too long to go into here, but it was an awful time in my life. After hearing the sermon I thought to myself that I should forgive her because only by doing so would I be “done with it” and truly free from it all. I did not know how to contact her in order to say to her, “I forgive you,” Ironically, I ran into her at the library and took her aside. Both of us were fairly non-reactive during the convo, but when it was over I felt as though I’d unloaded a heavy weight. I realized that my forgiving her was not to absolve her of any blame but to absolve myself from continued anger and fierce resentment which was unhealthy for ME. She and I will not be resuming a relationship because now I know who she is and the terrible behavior she is capable of exhibiting. “Once burned, twice shy” as the saying goes. I learned that I was not getting back at her for remaining angry. Instead, I was continuing to bog myself down and obsessing over the injustice of it all. Now I’m free to move on to other things, other issues in my life that are far more important. Thanks, again Natalie for this post which means a great deal to me.
Colly sorry I haven’t been on the whole day….I understand how hard NC at the same workplace …even all the online checking etc…I don’t have advice perse just hugs and virtual supprt….my new job is a lot harder longer hours than the old one for the same pay…so many a day when I look back at the decision to leave in July ….please persevere at NC in the current situation. ..keep the end goal . .what u want for ur future in mind…whether it be a happy marriage with husband or OM and you getting together officially ie both of you leaving ur marriage s….both require you to do NC….so ur doing it for ur future happiness tho the next some months will br tuf
Hi Rags Mom,
Thanks for your support. You’ll see in my post to Leanne that I had to contact the ex because of a work issue. It was work and unavoidable but I feel a bit dirty for it, like I’ve broken NC, which I haven’t really because I kept it straight and professional.
I’m sorry to hear you are being worked into the floor, that always happens when you start somewhere new and have to prove yourself again, I’m sure it will settle down. I’m at the same company but have had a new job since September so I am in the same place in a way.
I’m going to have to keep a steel resolve today because I know I’ll get some work mail from the ex. I’m angry with him for failing to do his job properly and my team ending up in trouble for it. Though I find my anger is rather disproportionate and I’m channelling all my anger towards him through it. You know though part of me is scared that he’ll be upset with me because I was angry with him, like I don’t have a right to be angry.
I hope you’re feeling positive and that you have a nice restful weekend.
Lea hope NC went off okay today…..more later
Now I am the one who is posting here a lot these days.. but I really appreciate having a place to chat and get these feelings out.
MM called this morning about a work matter and it is so hard to talk to him! It was all very professional, but he said “I tried calling someone else about this, but they weren’t in” which made me feel both good and bad. Good because he’s on some level trying to respect my no contact boundaries, but bad because he’s making a point of saying that to me and it makes me feel on some level like he doesn’t want to talk to me either.
What is wrong with me?? I think I am going to have to start my daily CBT thinking exercises again to re-frame this. I always feel like he is laughing at me (though he probably really isn’t). I just feel so embarrassed by the whole thing and that he feels sorry for me. any interaction I have with him leaves me feeling like he thinks I’m a heartbroken loser, when I am trying to just move on!!
Trying to carry on with NC and hoping this gets better 🙁
Leanne,
I know how you feel, I’ve had the same conversations with my ex MM. Yesterday I ended up having to text him because he wasn’t responding to some urgent email requests from my team. It was too late and we got into trouble with some external auditors because of his lack of attention. I was fuming and actually wondered if he’d screwed me over deliberately. I’m actually now cackling with an evil laugh this morning because I know he’s going to get a roasting for it. This is what my anger does, and I’m going to probably descend into remorse and guilt for being so petty later.
Keep it up, stay professional as you are. I’m with you all in the way in the workplace NC game.
Ugh.. I am so up and down. I also have the urge again to email and tell him what a piece of shit he is and how much he hurt me. I guess this is what contact does.. !!!
leanne – unsent letter! get it all out….but obviously don’t send it!
Well Leanne, if he is laughing at you, that makes him a pretty lousy person. So dont take his behavior as your truth.
Lea and Col…..sorry NC is soo hard for you guys today…makes me realise yet again that leaving the job is final and painful in many ways….but possibly the only real way to move on….I tried NC handful of times while I was still there was not possible for me…..please stick to it…..for the sake of your dignity …..they knew how we felt abt them….they chose not to want that….trust me if you go back just now indicating eve n being a wallflower in his life is preferable to NC….u will have his affection maybe to a degree but not had his respect….in a few weeks again u will realise the pain of NC was at least cleansing and cud only get better….I was thinking this morning that the healing isnt linear I admit but if you observe v closely after a while every day u are healing even if it is just one cell at a time….dont regress..read Nats old articles…there’s 10years of her posts….it helped me tremendously on diff days
While I don’t know if I was forgiven, I felt great relief when I apologized for something I felt guilty about; but I cannot understand why I should forgive someone who has caused me pain if they have not requested it. I understand walking away and not letting them affect my life… but forgive? I have no desire to forgive someone who is not remorseful of their actions! Perhaps there is a better word to describe what we need to do?
Janet,
There’s no imperative that you should, even if they do request it (“why I should forgive someone who has caused me pain if they have not requested it….”). Why do you think you should? It could be just a matter of terminology. Do what is caring, respectful, trusting and loving of yourself. For me that has been giving up on resentment and accepting my own anger around others’ past treatment of me and also my own poor treatment of myself. There is also a diff between someone asking for you to ‘forgive’ them and a real apology (of the sorry variety) that if it is sincere never demands, begs or cajoles for forgiveness from the other party. If I am apologising to someone, it is worth sh**t if I make it conditional on being forgiven.
Janet, I’ve been thinking a lot about the term forgiveness this weekend and even did a bit of research (wow – ‘forgiveness research’ is a huge field in psychology. All that said and done I have decided to stick with letting go and being done with when it comes to talking/writing/reflecting on how I am dealing with past hurts, mistreatment, abuse, deception etc.
The key is that I have walked away ( and forward) and that the people who have caused and or contributed to this pain no longer have an overwhelming effect in my life. And that is down to the work I have done on my self awareness and esteem – tracing patterns, sticking to my boundaries and valuing myself. It’s made a massive difference to the present – my quality of life. I am not consumed by anger at particular people or situations, or dreams of retribution, future justice or reconciliation. I do not wish ill on any of those people. Do I want to search them out and demand an apology or tell them they are forgiven? No. A desire to do that would betray to me that I’m BEssing myself. And it’s great to truly feel that there is no BS in this area.
This is a good topic Nat. I find that I had/have to forgive myself the most. Forgive myself for not having my back in the past. That stuff has been a staple for the majority of my life. Up until recently I would say. In you younger adult years, I was so busy trying to be ‘chosen’ as a friend and a girlfriend that I didn’t even the time to properly get to know who the hell I was trying to ‘sell’ myself to and if I even liked these people! It went from me being angry at past guys and other situations to me asking myself ‘how in THE HEELLLLL did these people and situations happen under my watch!??” What was I doing with them?! What the hell ljsrmissy! So many years was spent trying to right the wrongs of the past. I also realized that I have served as the village emotional punching bag, dump site, and scapegoat. And this was THE breakthrough for me. I have spent a life time being projected and imposed upon too often. I have been holding other peoples issues, starting with my mother. One thing that I say to myself at least once a day is that I am ‘I am not holding other peoples stuff’. And like other posters have said, I gave myself permission to have negative emotions and be an angry bird.
Use at your leisure ladies!…
http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/32000000/angry-bird-angry-birds-are-amazing-32024326-500-375.jpg
I am a very energetic, emphatic, gregarious, cool and pretty even keeled woman. And I find that I have to be more vociferous and assertive than I naturally am because there are and have been certain types of people who have taken just my human decency as a permission slip to try to run over me. Now its something that I have to be aware of and ‘put on’ ever time I walk out of my door. A huge component of dealing in forgiveness for me is flushing and flushing soon. Flush-a-thon, flush fest, a flush extravaganza!! The sooner the better. I have enough of a sense of the smoke signals and breadcrumbs of users, dumpers, manipulators, abusers, broken people, plain ol mean and evil arsed people….just the wrong people(for me)in general. Teaching and re teaching myself that pretty much anyone that I engage with are adults and that they have already been raised, and in all fairness, they have not asked my to raise them again, so its up to heed what I see of them. I currently don’t have any in progress or new ‘drama’. But I know I will be tested. This pic below is how I feel but it gives me a chuckle at the same time.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-mDpFTphL75Y/VKxJNtBpT8I/AAAAAAAAEZ4/c3e8dger624/w578-h573-no/15%2B-%2B1
OK BR Nation Ladies:
Here is is a vid to ring in the New Years. We are on page 9 or 365 Glenn Mederios- SHE AINT WORTH IT. Dedicated to all AC’s, EUM’s, Narcs, MM, OM, OW, wretched family members…whomever you want to dedicate it to!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2BW9IKyc0A
Very sticky situation here..
I am currently 9 months pregnant and my boyfriend and I, of almost 3 years, broke up with me a week ago. This time last year I went out for a week, no cheating involved, but a lot of partying, minimal contact with him & I never told him otherwise about cheating. We had tried for months to get past this issue, but things would only be fine for a few months & back to this conversation of him not being able to get past it we would go. I did however tell him two days ago that I never cheated and he said he still needs time to think about everything because he had went a year thinking I was unfaithful. I never told him because I felt like such a piece of trash that I thought maybe he would move on & that he deserved better. Now, I feel like an idiot all over again. I’m hoping things will all smooth out for good once he holds our son, but that’s almost fairy tale like & my life is far from it. I know what I did was terrible! Don’t get me wrong! I guess I’m just wanting opinions, male ones definitely, because I’m feeling a bit crazy at this point!
Hi Renee , that does sound like a tough situation, 9 months pregnant and going thru a break up ….sounds like it maybe a fight rather than a break up hopefully …not clear tho what happened last year that got him so upset …..u went on a party binge and he thought it involved cheating ? was the episode related to what happened / didnt happened one particular nite when u drank too much or something ?
Hope you stay strong right now, the baby depends on you for its life and wellbeing ….and hope everything works out….
Renee
First, see a lawyer. Your child together is his responsibility too regardless if he bailed from the relationship. Right now the well being of that child is top priority. Sound like this dude has trust and forgiveness issues himself.
Thanks for your response @colly. I’ve been wanting to type you some responses lately as well but I’ve gotten such limited time to come on here, all I seem to have time for us to complain!
It is so hard to work here now and yes @rags mom, it is a good thing you got a new job fairly quickly, as despite the trouble, this is agony!!
I saw him again briefly at the end of the day and even though I’m not trying to run into him, everytjme I see him, I feel like he thinks that’s what I’m doing.
So tough, but you’re right @colly.. We can do this! Are you looking for a new job?
Leanne and Rags Mom,
I’m not looking for another job, I couldn’t without having to relocate which would be a nightmare because of husbands job, and I don’t work in the same office so can mostly avoid.
I’m fuming today, with him and myself. He did something at work this week that got my team into trouble, then I ended up having to text him to get him to pay attention to their email requests, he responds back to me and adds something personal on the end about being worried about his performance review, so I respond and then he can go and ignore me. B*st*rd, hate him right now, he stitches me up, doesn’t apologise, then pulls me in with something personal and then blanks me. He did a similar thing on New Years Eve too, it’s like he has to just check every couple of weeks that he can get a response from me. I hope I can channel this anger and hatred into not falling for this again. I really am starting to grasp that I’ve had a lucky escape from him. It really really hurts though.
God I am so tempted to tell his boss about his screw up so he really does have a problem with his stupid performance review!
Colly, tread v carefully , now that you are NC ….
I noticed my last few weeks there it was getting almost impossible to keep work and personal seperate , maybe cos he already knew he didnt plan to really make effort to keep in touch after I left there, he never took initiative only responded after I had left there.
Anyway, last few weeks were crazy = I tried calling him about something v urgent that had to be delivered by the end of the week and he acted when I called as if I was desperately trying to get a convo going just to hear his voice *rolling my eyes* …and then come end of the week, we ended up so disjointed on what we were supposed to have delivered ….I took the fall and sent an email to sr manager apologising for it not having been done and he never ever acknowledged it , maybe he thought the non delivery really was my sole responsibility , who knows, its not like he was open to discussing ANYTHING work related at that point…when I look back now I cringe so much …. he was treating me exactly how I was indicating I was okay with being treated …I mean I was asking for it and he obliged , with the callousness at times I mean
@suki and @lynn, thanks for your responses. Some of your words throughout the last few weeks have been incredibly helpful @suki. I am so grateful that there are people on here taking the time to share their thoughts and advice. Thank you!!
Lea and Col,
Early NC – Admit to yourselves first off, that it is going to be an emotional rollercoaster. Your mind will play lots and lots of tricks on you telling you that your behaviour was flawed and u drove away a wonderful person who could at the very least have been a good friend / support. Your days will feel empty sometimes and boring without his company. You wont have realised how much you counted on him till NC kicks in…..just keep remembering what you want , whats good for u ….
I am still stuck in the forgiveness. I think that I am near to the end, but actually I think that there always will be something that will make me angry of her. I think that this is for good, because this will keep me safe from not going back to her and to repeat the drama cycle again.
I am more than year of total NC and I live in another country, so there is no more chance that we will cross paths again. I still have flashbacks, but they are fading more and more. I didn’t know how I can forgive myself for putting me in such a situation and forgetting what is self respect. I think that the story with this woman is my epiphany and I am re-thinking again some of the past relationships. May be this is why the forgiveness is so slow, because this last relationship revived issues in me, that I couldn’t see before. I think that this is for good, because now I have an idea on what I have to work on. I am not angry, because I stuck in this, because it will finish when I am ready.
Some things, that I was thinking about today:
* I didn’t know what is toxic relationship before this epiphany. Now I know! I don’t want to put myself or anybody in such a situation.
* In my next relationship I will pay attention during the discovery phase.
* I wasn’t experienced enough and that’s why I experienced such a drama and probably some kind of post traumatic stress ( after one of her texts while she was on a company party – “These men are wild / crazy” exactly at midnight).
* I cared and loved this person, but I had low self esteem and not healthy relationship habits, but I don’t feel shame for the effort and the wasted time, because deep in myself I was authentic and I did all the stupid things because I cared about her.
* She hasn’t put enough effort to know who am I. This was so obvious after she broke up with and was sending me no sense fishing texts (do you remember the one of the company party?).
* Soon I will visit my country and there is a chance to cross paths with her. I don’t think that I have to be firm. There is nothing to say, she hasn’t invested enough to know me during the relationship, why now I have to invest from my time. Probably I will be silent and I will walk away.
* I also see myself contributing in the drama, but for good I got the decision to go NC!
Thanks to @Ethelreda the Unready about: “What I have found helpful is saying the person’s name out loud, ‘——, I forgive you for ——– and ——–‘ or whatever you need to say. I have found the car, driving to work, is a good place to do this, as it’s entirely private.”
Yesterday I was screaming this on abandoned parking on my way home. It really helped!
Feeling very bad today because yesterday I broke NC. Ex MM started texting me about the work he had missed that got me into trouble, how he had been away all week, the kids were crying because he couldn’t be with them, but he couldn’t leave me exposed at work. The truth is he had to do it so his boss didn’t kick his ass and he had to do it then while his wife was teaching so he look like model husband when she finished later. Still, he has this way of pulling me in and my validation seeking self soaks it up.
It was funny because I was thinking and feeling that I felt he was full of sh1t while in text dialogue with him, but I couldn’t make myself stop and refocus on the work. It’s like having something sore in your mouth and not being able to stop poking at it with your tongue.
Some choice statements from him yesterday included “I will always have your back” and “I never ever do anything out of a sense of obligation. WTF? So not true, yet I think he really believes these things when he says them, and goes to show how EU he is.
He also told me “you owe me nothing…I owe you.” This statement has made me feel angry and sad, angry because somehow he recognises he took something from me and that it feels like I’m an object of pity for him, and sad that he views it that way. I don’t really view love as a bartering system, you don’t give love expecting a return on investment like that, or at least you shouldn’t. He doesn’t owe me, I owe me for not heeding all the red flags, the feeling of almost constant anxiety I had in our relationship that I pushed down. I owe it to myself to try and move on. It’s just so hard when you let someone drain the life from you, as all you BR readers know.
So today will be rough, very little sleep from ruminating, I’ll be ruminating all day over what he said and over the fact I broke NC. I’m so disappointed in myself. I feel resentful that he went away and didn’t crack and call me in tears because I wasn’t with him as he normally does since he left me. I feel resentful because he bled me dry to go and feather his nest with someone else and even knows he’s done that. I feel so upset with myself for backsliding.
Please, anyone doing NC, don’t break it, it’s not worth it.
Colly wow ….you sound really worked up ….first off, try and get naps during the day today, take care of you, if u have something else ur daughter can do or someone else she can be with, maybe get out and do stuff like some spa time to re center urself again ..surprising how much the little things calm us …
from what u are saying, in all thee interactions with OM , honestly it sounds like he cares abt u, but u had already established that it wasnt enuf, he wasnt going to leave his marriage for u, and just wanted status quo in its different variations to continue ..from what u said in a previous post, sounds like he is against divorce cos it involves custody battle and from the fact that he said his wife would never let him see the kids sounds like she is very much in the marriage and hence he thinks it would be a terrible betrayal for her if he took steps to leave ….
The reason I cover old ground is to point out to you that nothing has changed. The rest is just semantics. I dont think he said or did anything new to upset u so badly – we all make this mistake of assuming NC will hit them badly and shake them up. All of us on here can tell u it doesnt. We have already established these men cant really care that much ….so why does the fact that NC doesnt have them in tears make us resentful ? I heard all these words from OM as well ‘ I will always be there for u’ , ‘I have never had these kind of profound conversations with any other woman etc’ ….the reason u went NC was somewhere u didnt feel actions backed words up ….sit down and list why u feel angry abt him and why breaking NC is not going to help with that anger only make it worse ?
Also….I really am sorry if this comes across as harsh , but I am only drawing from my experiences and mistakes in telling u this …u wont admit this to yourself until much later in the NC cycle = some of the drama over OM we draw out cos we dont want to address our real issue. The marriage. Just the fact that you were so upset on a saturday – the biggest problem for a wife would be having to conceal those emotions from a concerned and or suspicious husband. You also say u dont want ur husband to know but the fact that u could text so easily on a saturday shows again that things are not where they shud be with your husband, of course im stating the obvious when I say that, but that should be what ur focussing on, again the rest is just noise to put off having to deal with that. Im really sorry, I know this is not what u want to hear just like I never did either.
My husband and I had a M. counselling session last nite, we were angry with each other cos of it ….for the first time, instead of regretting OM wasnt around…I was glad he wasnt …I can see that I need to deal with home, before anything else …you say OM doesnt want to leave his marriage but what about u ? …youhave been stringing along husband for so long now , and you havent come clean with him at all ? …not even once, not even a little bit.
if you did go for counselling, belive me, this is what the counsellors will take very seriously and ask u some tough / real questions to think about ..not what is or isnt going on wiht OM. thats what my counsellor did = she said either stay and work on ur marriage (which u cant do if u are in any type of contact with the OM other than the brief minimum on work) or get the hll out of the marriage , dont string someone else along – no matter what that person has done to you in the past.
I dont think u are doing ur daughter justice either. Sorry, I think of you as a friend and the words are intended to make u see the way the land lies.
There is a world of difference between struggling with NC and actually breaking it – please take some time to reflect on your marriage. OM is not the issue right now. If you are a divorced woman sometime in the future, thats when OM being unavailable should upset u, right now u are even more EU than him. cos hes talking abt the real problems like custody at least.
I recently realised I have progressed from the person who kept asking husband for a divorce cos I wanted to be free to at least have something short term with OM (I didnt think he was ever going to want someting long term with me) …..Now I feel even if my marriage doesnt work and I find myself a divorced woman, I wont contact OM.
I know that a world of pain was what brought u to the cheating situation u were in before NC …but that doesnt justify staying in it for ever …. my counsellor was ruthless with me last July and now I can looking back understand it.
Breaking NC is a small setback and fixable …but I think u really are not as self aware of what u want as u think u are…u cant even see ur confusion at the moment ….
Hi Rags Mom,
Thanks so much for the response, your comments were not harsh, just realistic, and definitely nothing worse than I berate myself with.
You’re right that nothing has changed and there is no new info. OM and I are definitely done. I won’t be the OW and he chose to stay with his wife. His wife did consider divorcing him last summer because he wanted his own debit card and to be able to buy things without permission (really – he even had to call if he wanted to buy a snack). He got his way and thought it was a huge breakthrough for his marriage and was one of the reasons he stayed and persevered. Anyway, this is not really relevant to me and today, what’s happened has happened.
As for me, I want to do my husband and daughter justice, I want to do what’s right by them, I want us all to be happy together, I just don’t know how. I am about as EU as they come and have been for a very long time. I was brought up to be EU and the thought of letting anyone close to me is terrifying. OM is an addiction I am fixating on to avoid facing myself and my demons. I have a history of getting addicted to things to avoid my feelings. Texting was too East btw, because just happened over an hour while I was cooking dinner.
Tomorrow I have counselling, though I may change counselor because I don’t think she is brutal enough with me. I am starting self esteem course tomorrow too. I am trying.
I can’t come clean to my husband, or it will be over for good. I’m frightened to leave, I’m frightened to stay, im just frightened of living in the real world I suppose.
All seems so bleak when I write it all out.
I am getting back on the NC saddle, it is the only way.
Rags Mom, sorry you had an angry counselling session last night, it must have been very difficult for you. I hope someday soon I can be as brave as you and tackle my marriage issue head on. In my case I feel so lost I don’t know how to start it.
Colly, Clearly you already know you are doing yourself no good by responding to him and I’m sure you also know that you can stop if you choose to. You have a pattern – an addiction that needs cold turkey treatment. Use your courage to make the leap that precedes getting off the drama crack.
As an outsider, my view is that you are worth more than what acceptance of his boundary busting weekend ‘work’ text messages suggests. However, do you think things would be easier for you if the ‘bait’ was not laid right in front of you? Most cold turkeyiers do not have the drug within reach/sight.
So I wonder if it is possible to put some’official’ channels into service for you. These are just suggestions made from what I understand of your work situation.
1. Have another of your team *email* him on work email on Monday (or make it a team email) to inform that the medium for work communications is email not text during both the week and weekends. Now there is an ‘official’ reason why his text messages will not get a response.
2. Have him referred to the appropriate person if he wishes to discuss his performance review. You could make this a team email too maybe. A bit of house keeping.
And if you’re up for it, try and take serious stock of where your obligations to communicate with him for work end – and mark that in your mind with a red line. There may even be scope for you to move that line to further minimise communication.
You know Colly, in one sense he is right with that patronising comment – you really DON’T owe him anything – and that includes ‘owing’ him text message responses to his weekend baiting. Take his advice.
Thanks Lizp, I have beaten compulsions and addictions before so I do know I can stop if I really want to. It is hard when it’s in front of my face. I have considered putting a colleague in front to be his contact for work but we are so short staffed it’s very difficult to do. I am going to try and find a way though. I know my life can never be in a good place until I can ditch this crack. I’m so frightened of what I’ll find when its gone – though this is crazy, because what I have found in my moments of strength are a good husband, good friends and a nice peaceful life. Somehow I don’t know how to deal with this for long periods.
@Colly, don’t worry so much. I have broken NC many times, but after each time I was getting wiser. Breaking NC has it’s own sense and it learns us how not to get tricked next time.
Take care and relax 🙂
Thanks Mr Still U, I do see that breaking NC teaches a lesson each time, and for me the pain is causes me somehow helps me connect with a dark painful place that I avoid but need to confront. Ive also recognised that not forgiving yourself for breaking NC sort of drives you back to being tempted to go there again.
The article above helped me to understand confusion round the term forgiveness.
Forgiveness is not the same as reconciliation.
Forgiveness is not forgetting.
Forgiveness is not condoning or excusing.
Forgiveness is not justice.
leanne, you mentioned you were starting counselling , how is that going ?
I think the posts by lizzp in this thread are poignant and hope everyone reads them. In following BR it seems to me there is a process of first feeling like a victim, someone was callous and careless with our feelings. They are not what we imagined them to be after all. We get angry at them for their behaviour, then get angry at ourselves for ours.
We kick ourselves for ignoring red flags and putting up with “less than” treatment in hopes for a better future.
But those who suffer the most, in my observation, are those who have made immoral choices and now are feeling remorse and guilt. (for example trying to break up someone’s marriage). The other person may be an accomplice and make immoral choices as well. Until one looks at the truth of their behaviour choices without rationalization ( “he came on so strong, he told me he would leave her, he told me there is no one like me” etc) and say to yourself, “what I did was WRONG”. If you have core values to guide your life and a moral compass, and you lost it, get it back, If you have no values, or morals, I suggest you find some. Otherwise you will never be happy with yourself. When you stop analyzing and demonizing the object of your affection, and realize the sexual attraction felt good, but everything else was wrong then you can start to like yourself. Then you respect yourself. Then you start making better (moral/ethical) choices. Then your self esteem grows and you love yourself. Then you are ready for love.
I am not holier than thou. I speak from my own choices and journey. But this is the truth.
You are right Simple Pleasures, I’ve moved so far from myself and my values having an affair. I think it’s easier to get caught up in the drama of the failed affair than looking at why you’re there and how you can make sure you don’t go there again, even though that is the path to happiness.
I think I have to start my NC count over because I engaged in an email/text convo with MM. There was a work event at the end of fri and he emailed to ask if I was going. I said I wasn’t sure. And he said he would stay away if I wanted to go. This led into a text discussion full of sorrys and I miss you’s and him saying I honestly don’t know how I’m going to get over you. I tried to be strong and cool but I did get into it a bit (saying the same thing). Anyways, we agreed to stay away from each other and that we can’t be friends. I told him I’m looking for another job and he said he’s really sad to hear it, but probably for the best. He said he thinks about me constantly. Is this guy for real?? It doesn’t matter cus of his situation (and did he not choose this?)
Anyways, I spent the weekend in a daze, but no contact, so now day 2. I started counseling last week and the counselor (like everyone on this site) said I need to stay away from MM and work on myself. That is my goal here. Feeling sad and anxious today. I don’t think I’m really going to start to heal until I get a new job 🙁
Leanne,
I had so many conversations like this between end Sept when we split and about a week before Christmas.
It’s very confusing and painful and always seems to leave more questions than answers. You are right though that the words don’t matter. I guess for me it’s only in the last week that I’ve really started to believe that it’s the actions that tell the real story, and I still broke NC this weekend though the conversation was not of this nature.
So, we can start counting the days together, and you’re a day ahead of me already!
Thanks @Colly.. yes, let’s! so glad to meet other people going through this. It is so tough and so isolating. Good luck to you! Will report back soon with success I hope (though it is SO hard to say that with conviction when we work together).. Ahh… hugs 🙂
Leanne and Rags Mom,
Yuk, mine called me yesterday, I’d missed the call and he’d left a voicemail. I wanted to just delete but had to listen because of work. He asked me to help with something (would be for my benefit too) and asked me to call him back. I didn’t want to talk to him so I just replied by text and told him to email me with the details of what he needed me to do. He text back and said he’d let me know if I could help! Very confusing and at odds with the voicemail he’d sent. I ignored the text and just deleted. He then emailed me later with something that was an “in joke” about something when we had been together and I ignored that too. I could see he was attention seeking and was frustrated because he had failed to get me to engage on a personal level. I’m not falling for this trick again, as history tells me he is gone once he thinks he still has me. I’m pleased I was strong here but still beating myself up because I can’t get it out of my mind.
Ah its so hard.
Hope you’re OK Rags Mom, hope you’re just busy having a life?
Colly, time for some practical measures.ie send an email “All work matters please use emal. X, y, z can be contactedby phone if the matter requires discussion”. Don’t respond to calls or text messages. You are just keeping yourself in the drama.
@Lizzp
Agreed.
We keep picking up the phone and responding in hopes that maybe THIS time, the 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000th time, they will tell us what we want to hear. And without fail, they show us that they are just ‘checking their traps’.
ljsrmissy, love ‘checking their traps’ – what an accurate metaphor!
Sorry Colly, I see on reading your comment above more carefully that you did only give the one response by text message telling him to email. Nonetheless, given the addictive and obsessional quality of your thoughts about this deceitful come-help-me-get-myself-off-because-it’s-better-than this-magazine/porn site married w**nker scumbag, I think that you *can* find a way to cut communication completely. Forget about what he will think of you if you don’t respond to an ‘alledged’ work matter. Does your work absolutely demand that you communicate, because it reads to me like he is simply taking advantage of a more general sort of undefined expectation. The so called ‘work’ matters he is using as pretext are inconsequential or at the very least not part of your duty statement (correct me if I’m wrong). Treat him like a client whom you cannot ‘assist’ (with *anything* not just at the fertility clinic. He no longer gets to blow hot air out of his bum at you with his little jokes and mysterious ‘might be helpful’ enigmas. Refer the douche bag on. And block him from your personal mobile. Hell be damn – what an a*hole.
Well don
Yes, thanks lizzp, I will do that next time something like that happens.
He has invited me to a call with him tomorrow and I was in the unfortunate situation of having to accept. I’ve buffered this for myself a bit by inviting one of my employees along. The employee isn’t needed or the best to come along, but at least I thought it would protect help protect me from anything that was not work-related. Not perfect, but really the best I could do with the situation. I have to say I’m dreading it though, I really don’t want to speak to him.
Colly, that is a very smart move. Be proud of yourself. I know it’s not easy.
Another thing to do is to put the call on speaker phone (in the event that you cannot get a colleague to conference call with you). Make sure he knows it’s on speaker and that there is someone else nearby/in your office (it doesn’t matter if this isn’t necessarily the case). If there is follow up by email, could you cc your own and his replies to someone else? That might make him give up on his inappropriate use of work email to try and engage with you personally.
lizzp, all went well, having the colleague there made all the difference and I am feeling much calmer and more centred and more resolute in my NC than I ever have so far.
@leanne, to be honest, there will be many rounds of NC before the one time that you realise this is it ..but each time will just confirm the futility of it all more, unless of course your situation proves to be the exception and he leaves his wife for you, which I’m not sure u even completely want anymore as much as u once did….
@colly, thanks for understanding where I was coming from earlier today, if I had an option to delete my post after sending I probably would have …if you have realised this early on NC that your focus needs to be on either sorting or clearing out from your marriage foremost, then you are ahead of the game , it took me months after initially starting NC (the first of many rounds upto now) before getting there.
I dont pretend to understand whats happening in your marriage (remember the saying all happy families look the same, but all sad ones are sad in their own way) ….but I feel as tho ur OMs marriage has similarities to mine, what he said abt his spouse cutting off custody of kids (my husband repeatedly threatened this, my friends and OM of course, kept telling me he didnt have a legal standing to do that and he was just intimidating me, but a part of me DID not want unpleasantness to be part of the divorce after 13 years with this man, father of my son. If he had agreed with an amicable parting in 2013, I know I would have left then) ….also what u say abtur OM’s spouse controlling his finances etc ….same story here for many years , even now I owe 100% accountability and he even knew when I sent OM CD’s last xmas) ….
the counselling session wasnt tough per se , it riles up a lot of old ancient history which of course is essential ( what do they say, about old ghosts casting long shadows or something like that) ….but weve been in counselling almost 15 months now and for the first 10 months , I still had OM to talk to everyday , and so I wasnt really giving my all to the counselling , the marriage problems seemed completely different in flavour with OM around, you cant sort out X and Y when Z is around, its as simple as that, even X and Y parting may get delayed cos of Z as paradoxical as that sounds = Id feel less angry with husband on days when OM said something real sweet and even vice versa sometimes , it was all a mess. its the beginning of sanity returning now,…
I dont know if its all you guys breaking NC (me looking for someone else to blame as usual) ….but oh man, wish I could have one tiny email , would it kill him to send a one liner to see if im okay ….
I think it will be many more months still before a whole day goes by without any single thought of him , but there are definitely good days starting to crop up here and there …..there were a few dark weeks at the outset when i couldt even focus for more than 10mins on work, thats getting much better now …have a full day conference event tommr at new job and found myself looking forward to that ….NC is a very long process guys , and after getting to a point , resetting the clock is painful regression unless something in his words and actions point to a real change …I think my ‘OM’ (yeah,right, even me calling him my OM is just illusion on my part, I was just an agony aunt I think, well except for the hot glances and the ‘you’re driving me nuts’ and the whole week of ‘ Im going to do this to you in this position’ ….okay, Ive completely lost my train of thought and rambling even more than usual, so will end this absolutely useless post.
I’m so pathetic …
Rags Mom, you are not pathetic, you are strong, and I would say have definitely been pushed down a nostalgic path by Leanne and I breaking NC. Leanne’s post of her NC break was so reminiscent of the NC breaks I’ve had before, up until this last one where there were no “I love yous” or “I miss yous”, it’s gone all coded and closet (he told me before Xmas he would always love ME but could not say it anymore because it was so painful for him – I have no idea what difference vocalising something means). My head is definitely in the right place with OM in terms of knowing his words and actions don’t match, but I’m still obsessing to protect myself from having to face me. My heart has a way to go until it catches up with my head!
It makes me concerned for you you say your marriage sounds similar to his. My ex OM is in a very controlling relationship and was not allowed friends or interests of his own, as well as financial control, and also emotional blackmail and physical abuse (all allegedly I guess). I hope your husband has recognised that emotionally blackmailing you over custody of your son is not on. Also, there is a big difference between being openly accountable with finances in a marriage versus financial control, I’m hoping yours is the former.
Well here’s a thing I’ve struggled with too – with all OM told me about his marriage, I could never understand why she was chosen over me – but then I guess that is not really about me, it’s about him needing to sort out his stuff.
I have a long way to go but I’m battling. I’ve seen my counselor this morning and am feeling much more centred and grounded again. NC is the right thing but I recognise how breaking it and suffering the pain also serves a purpose. I have a long, hard road ahead of me to get where I need to be, and I promise I’ll do my best to keep the focus on me.
You are so not pathetic! This stuff is so hard! For both Colly and I, we are just way closer to the break in terms of timeline. I’m sure your ex-OM thinks of you often (how could he not if feelings were that strong last year??) Also, we are in the same offices as ours, so breaking NC is unavoidable! but don’t wish for it.. it is agony! hope you managed to stay strong this weekend.. I’m now 3 days NC. I feel so mixed and crazy .. it’s so not worth it!!
Rags Mom, Leanne,
Ex-Om’s, ex-MM’s may be thinking about us, they may be missing us…But, we must realize the only very important fact: they’ve made their choice – to stay in their marriage (good or bad) and not to have a real relationship and commitment with us. So, even if they miss us, they clearly don’t miss us enough. They can live and they do live without us.
Yes, it is soothing to get some – any – sign of attention from them (pre and post NC) or tell yourself “he is thinking about me…” but it’s better to realize that IT’S OVER. Accepting that the relationship is over is difficult. I myself fantasize about him asking me back and then have moments of clarity when I know that “yes, it’s definitely over. I must accept it”. We need to realize that they’ve made the choice for us. We have no other option but to accept it. Do NC, give up the hope of him coming back and finally accept that it’s over, grieve the loss…these are the steps in healing and finding ourselves back.
I think accepting other person’s right to his/her choice, accepting that the relationship is indeed over, and that the other person is just human (just like us), so make mistakes (just like us) are necessary steps in the forgiveness process. As Nathalie writes,forgiving doesn’t mean condoning or agreeing with the person’s actions. Forgiving certainly doesn’t mean we need to stay in contact or try to preserve some kind of relationship. In case of affairs – to really break away, it’s necessary to be NC for as long as you are not neutral. It is better for all.
Accepting, forgiving, and letting go are essential to reclaim ourselves.
Boom! Spot on Jam.
I’m not the type to, well, type down their heart out online (except my gmail inbox, that page has every possible emotion stored) but I have the need to thank you Natalie and to the group of amazing, intelligent women that found themselves enwrapping themselves around this site. I guess we can all agree that we hear ‘universal truths’, which present themselves here, on a daily basis, all of our lives. We can sit in front of a therapist hearing the same thing over and over but for some reason, you find yourself stumbling upon a website and it all finally ‘clicks’. There’s a saying ‘the truth will set you free but first it will piss you off’. Well, I’m pissed off alright. For having to finally stop myself from fooling myself and actually realizing what I need as opposed to what I need which surprisingly, most times, are completely opposite things. I’ve realized I’ve been living my life in a ‘humorous’ way, following this amusing quote I’ve discovered lately: “I don’t make the same mistake twice. I like to do it six or seven times, just to be sure”.
I’m not a young girl, but I have started my love life very recently so you can say I’m ‘learning to fly but I ain’t got wings’ when I’m in an age where everybody knows what’s what, I’m learning things for the first time. I’m not sure how it is in the UK but from where I’m from everybody literally everybody gets their dates off of dating websites. And I find this world to be disgusting if only for the sole reason that you’re able to see when the person was last online, i.e. after you’re back from your date with him, whether it’s the 1st or 5th, you’re able to see he’s still looking out for more, discontent. Because we live in an age where everyone can get more and search for ‘better’, so why ‘settle’? I mean, hey, there’s a whole catalogue to choose from! When do you know when a person *chooses you* when it is legitimate and even expected to keep scouting for someone else even when you just left their bed in the morning? How can someone find meaning in that, assuming they have a healthy attitude towards themselves and their worth? This kind of behavior is so common that I wonder how anyone can expect anything else? How does one fit themselves in such a world of “more, soon, now, better, faster”? Must we align ourselves with it? This *is* reality from where I’m from. *This* is the rule, not the exception. Where you spend a night of temporary intimacy, feeling completely vulnerable only to walk out their door, realizing you need to take into consideration that 98% are you will never hear from them again. People even with the highest EQ belong to a world where it is social consensus to play a part in a game where everyone are disposable, replaceable, meaningless, temporary? And, finally, how do we give ourselves while still taking care of ourselves/protecting ourselves in a world such as this? How do we maintain our sense of worth in worthless context? I hope to hear your opinions. I crave this kind of discussion and hope to hear your words on the matter. Natalie, I hope it’s OK I’ve written here in such length, could not think of a better place to do so <3
Julia, I hear you! Something very big is happening here. Up to 5-10 years ago, romance usually developed as the result of chance meetings, friends of friends, crossing paths in work and private lives. Now, it feels like that’s witchcraft. It suddenly feels like online is the only way. It reduces us to commodities, however ironic people treat it on their profiles. It’s effed up.
To have a go at your questions – we don’t have to give anything except a few hours of our time, to someone we’ve deemed worthy of spending a few hours with. If you have no sense of worth, don’t date. If your sense of worth will be affected by someone you just met, don’t date. If you’ll give yourself physically in the hope you can be in the 2% that will get a second date, don’t date. Why wrap it up with ‘temporary intimacy’? This isn’t part of the routine and is usually draining and shallow. I’m saying this from experience, not being judgemental. I don’t want to be harsh, but if you give yourself away easily, you’ll probably get treated easy.
I resisted online dating for years, with major fears and dater’s block, and finally gave in. I went on my first ever internet date. It was just coffee, nothing physical and a nice guy, I felt bad that to me he was just ‘practice’ and I probably made that clear to him. But we were respectful to each other. I treat it as something to make me feel less passive while I still hope to meet someone in the real world, instead of putting the weight of the rest of my life on each eligible man I come into contact with. I don’t think that makes me a bad person. We both learned something from each other and had an afternoon out. I’d find it crazy if he started feeling worthless because it didn’t go anywhere, but I’ve done the same thing many times from the receiving end. And now no one contacts me because I’ve passed the online ‘sell-by-date’ (for most men), but I’m not going to feel inferior for staying alive this long! It’s weird but doesn’t have to define our value.
I have personally opted out of that kind of situation because I refuse to sleep with anyone as long as we’re not in an exclusive relationship and that means no one is still online looking for the next thing. And yes that means I haven’t slept with anyone in quite awhile because I haven’t met anyone I wanted to go past 4 dates with! But I feel much calmer and happier. It might be awhile though … haha.
Diane, it’s better this way. Last time I slept with someone I didn’t know, there was no intimacy or affection, I was disgusted by how boring and soulless it was. And proof if ever it’s needed that, however much time passes, we don’t need to be reminded what to do, or to practice, or to check we’re in working order! There’s absolutely no giveaway whether it’s been 2 days or 3 years. I’m grateful for this lesson, as unpleasant as it was.
Happy B, as you know…ditto. Coming on 2 1/2 years now and feeling fine. Happy New Year!
Yes I thought of that discussion. Happy new year to you too lizzp!
I wait at least 3 months…shoot for 6 months with a new man in my life. Been a long time! That’s okay, it will be worth the wait.
Ladies, I read this article this morning in our national newspaper, and I think it’s got a lot to say to all of us!
In love with … life Be THIS woman!
Don’t be THIS woman.
(I have to admit, when I saw this second story, I immediately thought of Baggage Reclaim and thought, boy, this lady needs our help …)
Ladies – you have helped me time and again, and I need some outsiders perspective honest feedback. My boyf and I have been dating for 6 months. He recently revealed to me that his very close family – mother, father, sister and brother-in-law have all been telling him that I am not God’s will for his life, even though they think I am a good person. Before I even knew them they told him this and now he is wondering, do I rely on their “Godly counsel” or do what I feel in my heart. He says he loves me and I am the love of his life, but he doesn’t want to miss what God may be trying to tell him through his family. I am in shock. I share the same religion, values, etc etc. He said there is nothing I can do to change his parent’s mind and that he is very close to them so that is concerning to him. He is in his 30s and when I met him was living at home. I encouraged him to move out of his parent’s home and he did and moved closer to me. His mom was upset by this to the point she would not come visit his new home in the city. He readily admits she is passive aggressive. So now he is faced with a choice and is taking some time to decide. I just can’t believe he went from all in go pick out a ring to now I really have to discover if this will work because my parents are adamant against it. Oh, he also said his best friend feels like I am not the right match for him after praying about it … and ladies, I have never even met his best friend. Thoughts? Please help!
whatsagirltodo – it sounds like his family follows God’s will or what they feel God is telling them. If they are strong in their faith I am not sure what you can do except pray and maybe talk to someone at church, if you attend church.
Maybe this is a good time for you to pray about your relationship and figure out if he is God’s will for your life? You have only been together for 6 months. How do you know for a fact that he is the one already? This is a touchy subject and if he is sincere in wanting to honor God (even if its starting with his parents) that is something, in my opinion, you need to respect and not force your way. I am Christian and I have tried to force things when its not what God wants for me in a relationship and it doesn’t work. Maybe through all this God is trying to speak to you too?
Lynn, a great response, and exactly what I’d want to have said.
whatsagirltodo – several things pop up for me in your post:
1) Six months isn’t very long, really. (How old are you, by the way? Is there a big age difference?)
2) You’ve never met his best friend. Why not?
3) He was still living at home at 30?
4) He went all-in ‘pick out a ring’ too soon, that’s all. This is what’s confusing you. But lots of people go too fast, too soon, and then after around 6 months have to start unpicking the messes they make. We’ve all been there.
5) Has he ever had a girlfriend before? Are you the first one?
6) His family do sound as if they will have trouble letting him go, even when the ‘God-appointed’ and family-approved woman comes along. I foresee major in-law problems for the lucky lady. Do you really want a lifetime of this?
There is a valuable saying: ‘Rejection is God’s protection’. This could be a lucky break for you, and a good time for your own prayer and discernment, like Lynn says.
It is NEVER a good idea to go into a marriage with a lot of family opposition, especially on both sides, and you have your own family to contend with as well. I know we all like to believe that True Love Wins Out, but it doesn’t always.
@Lynn- thank you for the advice
@Ethelreda – answers to your questions:
1) 27
2) his best friend lives out of the state and has not come in town to visit
3)he had moved to the city 6 mo prior so that was his rationale (good enough?)
5) he actually was married before in his 20s and she divorced him
Wow I really like that “rejection is God’s protection” that is powerful!
Any further thoughts?
Ahhhhh! That makes more sense; he’s been married before.
I have a feeling that he’s met you-> been bowled over-> rushed into wanting a commitment-> and then gotten scared because his family have put the frighteners on him for whatever set of reasons.
Also his track record of a young marriage that failed is going to make him think twice now (we hope).
What do you know about the ex-wife – did his family ‘disapprove’ of her too? And is that why she divorced him – because they nagged and interfered and bullied her so much that she finally left, or found someone else?
Keep praying.
All I know about the ex-wife is that the family despises her now – well the mom and sister do. His ex and him actually lived with his parents while they were engaged and then 2 years into the marriage she left him for another man who she is now married to with a baby. They approved of her in the beginning and now still talk about how bad she was and that they saw red flags, but did not alert him to those.
I see. So now the whole family is on hyper-alert for Bad Girl #2, and every woman will be automatically suspect … Of course, ‘Bad Girl’ may actually not be bad at all; she may have been thoroughly unhappy in that marriage from the get-go. But you’ll never find out unless you ask her. You will only ever hear his side of the story.
I keep coming back to the fact that he and his family are VERY enmeshed. This to me screams ‘danger’ for any future daughter-in-law.
He and his first wife lived with the family? Before and after marriage? I’m assuming you are Christians, so what happened to ‘this is why a man leaves his father and mother, and cleaves to his wife, and the two become one flesh’, as the Good Book says?
Doesn’t sound like there’s much leaving of the father and mother going on there, and it’s very hard to have a proper marriage with some decent cleaving to a wife, if Mom and Pop are there the whole time, subtly managing the whole marriage, your developing relationship with each other, what you have for breakfast, how you make up after you fight, and all the other things that a married couple have to develop.
They say that with marriage, the first year is the hardest. I can imagine that this first year’s natural difficulties would be multiplied by a hundred if you lived in a goldfish bowl with your in-laws.
The baby issue – the ex-wife left him for another man and had a baby? Was THIS why she broke up with your boyfriend – did he not want children? Do you know how he feels about having children? Have you had this discussion with him?
And how are you feeling about the relationship now? Any different? Any new insights?
He does want children. So I don’t think that was an issue for them.
We actually broke up 2 days ago. His mom told him she had a vision from the Lord that if we stayed together there would be pain and heartbreak in the future. He was so upset – he told me even more upset than his ex wife and he kept telling me he loved me so much and he was angry at God for making him do this-, my heart ached for him, but he said it was God’s will….
Whatsagirltodo,
Agree with Lynn re take time out/pray yourself to see whether this guy is God’s will for your life rather than letting guy dating (who sounds highly indecisive) decide how your life is going to be. If ever a choice is before you that involves going against your best interest, always choose you (Nat says this in a past article).
God’s will is in co-operation with your intellect and reason so use that to help decide whether you want to become part of this close knit situation where already you seem to be on the back foot of people you hardly know (family and friends of guy dating). And the one who is meant to ensure safety and security on your part is leaving you hanging to make sure his (safety and security) own back is covered i.e if he continues to be involved with you, family and friends may shun him…
Best of luck on what you decide X
Sometimes breaking NC is the best thing you can do, because the person acts like an ass yet again and cements your reasons for going NC in the first place. We should have a T-shirt: “Breaking NC: One more chance for the universe to prove this guy is an ASS.”
In my case it’s my mother, father, brothers and sister and I don’t really know what it means to forgive? It seems like just saying, “I forgive them” and then not thinking about it anymore or engaging with the thoughts that arise about them? Or pushing anger away when it surfaces or something reminds me of it? I’m trying to focus more on myself but not sure what else to do. I don’t speak to them and haven’t for years so at least I’ve got the NC thing going for me!
Thanks everyone who posts. Your stories are all so inspiring .. We can get thru this together! @ethelreda, I loved the articles you posted! I loved the idea of getting so into something that you don’t have time to be heartbroken. Excellent! The other article was so sad :(:(
I have been feeling better the last couple days but pretty anxious. However, I think I am in big big risk of breaking NC. I need help!! MM called this morning to ask about a work thing, but it was clearly something he didn’t need to call about and an excuse to say hi. We chatted for a few minutes and then I said I had to go. Then at the end of the day, he stopped by my office to say hi. I was pretty neutral and we just chatted briefly about our weekends and work. Then after he left (I think this guy loves rejection!) he emailed me. Then he texted me on my way home to tell me somethg funny and asked if I wanted to come by his office and chat later this week? I was pretty neutral in my responses but said maybe to his offer to chat, but that I wasn’t sure it was a good idea. For anyone out there with an EU man like this, apparently all you have to do to drive them crazy is pull back hard, stay NC for as long as you can and when you see them, act like you’re happy as can be and couldn’t care less about their life. Not that this was my plan, but it seems to have drummed up some response from him.
I don’t know what it means though.. And it seriously doesn’t matter!! He is married. He is having a baby with someone else. Why do I even care what’s going through this guys mind?
I can’t go and see him because it is probably pretty much impossible for us to keep our hands off each other if we are alone in a room together. I think he’s delusional if he thinks we can be just friends and I don’t want to be cheating here. But I also don’t want him to hate me/not love me (if he does) and not be friends to a certain extent (if it’s even possible). I know I am weak and this is a turn around from before xmas and how I was feeling during the holidays. But I knew I would get sucked back in!
Please Help me!! What should I say to this guy to strike the right balance between being likable/kind but not ending up in a dangerous situation? Is that even possible? What should I do?
Leanne,
Argh, I know this dance, I have done it with ex MM – although with the Atlantic ocean in the way which helped with the hands. You’ll see from my earlier post today I had a similar work call from mine yesterday although we didn’t talk because I chose not to.
You must stay away Leanne, you can’t be friends AT ALL while you still have feelings for each other. Any dropping by offices is NO GO, any chatting on the phone about anything personal is NO GO.
Please don’t get into the trap of thinking of NC as a game to get his attention, or be lured back by him blowing hot because of the NC. He chose to stay with his pregnant wife. If he leaves his pregnant wife then you might have grounds to start talking to him, but you would probably think he was an asshole for leaving her anyway…and what if he did that to you? For me, putting myself in the wife’s shoes, imagining if I was the wife and he was/would do that to me is what keeps me straight with knowing he is wrong for me. My weakness with NC is more like a compulsion now and comes up when I’m feeling vulnerable in some way.
The only thing you should say to this guy is what you have said before. He has chosen to stay with his wife, his wife is pregnant, and that you can’t be friends. You’re going to have to stop worrying about whether he likes you or not I’m afraid.
He is leading you on Leanne, get back on the NC horse, I’m right in the saddle here waiting for you and so are the other BR readers.
I agree with Colly Leanne. You only need to say ‘leave me alone’ firmly once. I think Wiser suggested this some ways back. Tell him firmly and *unambiguously* that you will be having nothing else to do with him, it’s over. That requires a conviction and commitment from you. Put yourself in his wife’s shoes as you say it. Then you block him from your phone. And give yourself a plan of action if he comes to your office. Practice saying “Leave. I said leave”. He’s still there? Leave yourself. Keep a log of his actions. He’s a slime ball so if you are unambiguous with him, my guess is he’ll back off when he sees you’re serious because he will start to get worried about getting busted and having to explain to his pregnant wife what he’s been up to.
Leanne, what this guy is doing is deeply deceitful and harmful to his WIFE and you are taking part in this. Are you aware that infidelity, whether it’s emotional or physical, is a form of spousal abuse and can cause PTSD symptoms among spouses who deal with this kind of betrayal? You should read about the absolute gut-wrenching devastation that betrayed partners experience.
If you’re serious about staying away from this guy (and I don’t think you are yet) one way is to start finding some concern and compassion for this other human being, this woman, his wife, his pregnant wife, whom you are harming by participating in this betrayal of trust. I have to talk tough here because I’m speaking as a former OW who is horrified now looking back at the harm I did in my selfishness. I put a blot on my own soul that’s taken me a long time to erase. I wish someone had knocked some sense into me back then. Men who do any kind of cheating on pregnant wives are scum of the lowest kind. Why you want to be friends with this weak, cowardly creep is beyond me. He is someone you have to STAY AWAY from, don’t you see that?? You asked what you should do and that is the answer. Married men are off limits, period, end of discussion.
Leanne – don’t fall for it. It’s all about control. Continue to keep your conversations short and professional. Don’t give him anymore personal information. He is looking for an ego stroke. I don’t think you should say anything to him. Actions speak louder then words. Stop engaging. If he sends an email that isn’t pertaining to work, don’t reply. don’t talk about your weekends. Can you see when he calls on your phone? If so, can you let it go to voicemail and then respond to his voicemail via email? I do that alot at work because I hate using the phone. You have to set up boundaries. If he shows up in your office and starts chit chatting, get up and say you have to use the restroom or you have a meeting anything to get him to leave. He is being disrespectful and you need to see it this way. Since going NC with my ex, he has contacted me almost every 3 months….complete disrespect but of course I saw it as he cares! He says he does, but he just wants attention (even though he has a gf) and wants to see if I am still there. After 9 months of NC (with him contacting me a few times), he contacted me one day and I felt strong and secure and thought this will just be a ‘how are you’ convo and we will go back to NC. Nope. It turned into him begging to see me. Talking about how he wants to touch me again. How we have a special bond. Did I mention he had recently moved in with his gf? Anyway – I told him yes, then told him no that he needed to do the right thing. He ended up saying he was just going to take his chances. And he showed up at my house. The rest is history. I saw him several more times….my point is … these men are f’d up. They don’t operate like we do. They operate in moments, in meeting their needs, in making themselves feel good no matter the cost. They have no conscience, no empathy. If our ex’s had any empathy, they would be leaving us alone. But its ALL ABOUT THEM. Even as I sit here and type this, I still don’t fully see him as this person but I see him more for who he is then I did last year at this time. I feel for you and your situation. Keep choosing you. And I hope you find a new job as that will help set you free.
@ Leanne,
Why are you worried about whether a man that is USING you likes you or not. Clearly he doesn’t care ENOUGH about what you think as he knows that you know he is a married man, with a baby on the way, and he has made it clear that he has chosen HER (not you), and he still trying to get in some extracurricular action in with you. You give him front door service in his office (He wont even get yall a hotel room) and then what?!
After the phone call and texts, he went home where? TO HIS WIFE. When he goes to work every day, who’s lights, gas, heat, water,rent, mortgage, car payment, car insurance, food, clothing, hair, nails, clothing, and vacations (that he told you about)does he work to provide for….guess!
If anything Leanne, ask your self, what has this man given you? Done for you? Outside of giving you a bunch of verbal checks that you cant cash, what has he given you? A night out? A dinner? A cup of coffee? At the very least a hotel room?
Please check out this story below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JHnomZbxxs
@Leanne sometimes starting NC is not easy! After I had my enough moment I had to “suffer” 2 more months before I completely cut off the person of my life.
My problem she unfriended me from FB, but after 2 weeks started to write to me even if we weren’t friends. First time about work, second time about my dress code and third time she invited me to eat together with her.
I really wanted to stick to my decision and keep this person out of my life. The first and second time I answered politely. But I found my patters. If she writes to me and I read it, then I answer immediately. Then I go decision I am going to get vacation from FB and also travel outside from the city, just to distance myself. I changed my password from FB and put the new one on secret place. After month and a half I opened my FB and there was the third message. I stick to my decision and with shaking hands have sent my last answer: “Please no more meeting and communication. It’s for good. I wish you all the best!”. After that I put her in the spam and since now haven’t spoken with her.
It wasn’t easy to scratch somebody from my life, who I cared and loved but I had to stick to my decision and to grow!
Can’t you ask him politely ( without drama ) to stop bothering you? If he respects you and wish you all the best, then he must understand.
you are on the road to hurting yourself, kicking yourself, hating yourself.
no one here can stop you.
you don’t want to stop the goings-on yourself.
everyone here should just give up with/on you.
“However, I think I am in big big risk of breaking NC.” Leanne, what the what? In danger of? – you have broken it.
As to what you should do? Time for something tougher seeing as how you put the question out there: Stay away from the married man and have some respect and consideration for the wife who is in a legal contract of marriage with him and whom you deceived and are still deceiving along with him. Tell him firmly to back off.
p.s – haven’t they just conceived their first child?
Leanne,
He is now blosing warmer/hotter to reel you in and you are eager to be reeled in. You are simply delaying the inevitable. Inevitable being your relationship ending. Chatting now and then, being friends, while your heart is aching because you can’t be the way you (still) want to be with this man – is that what you want? He IS staying in his marriage, he is having a child, he is living his life, and he is too weak to be accountable…Well, why should he be accountable when you’re willing to take crumbs from him, when you’re also weak? You are an additional something in his life, not in any way close to the significance he is (still) in your life! He is living his life, while your life is on hold. For what? You know that the probability of him ending up with you is close to nil…
And no, you cannot stay friends or have some relationship with him now, because you still have feelings for him. And not just feelings, but addiction – which will subside if you don’t feed it.
Please read Nat’s post on the Other Woman: how to break up with a married man and 10 Truths You Need to Accept About Breaking Up.
It is essential for you to be realistic and rational now, and to make up your mind on what it is you want. Hold your head high, make up your mind, and walk away now. Yes, it will hurt, but the sooner it is cut out the better. Bleeding little by little is worse…
Leanne,
He is having sex with his wife. He got her pregnant. And you still say you wouldn’t be able to keep your hands off him? Really? I would be throwing up by now at the repulsion of him and his community penis. The bits of attention you are getting from him now is a disrespectful joke on you, and you play coy, act neutral, and pretend to him you are easy with it all, like it’s no biggie to text back and forth while he is driving home to his wife. He doesn’t love rejection, because you aren’t rejecting him, you are playing a game of cat and mouse. If you want this to truly stop, then stop this madness. This tiny little bit of satisfaction you have now at driving him crazy (he’s not by the way, but just playing you on the line for future ego stroke when he’s bored) will turn into a hurting hell hole when he once again goes dark to keep you from expecting anything from him. I feel so sorry for his wife. I sorta feel sorry for you, because I can understand how we end up in situations we never really intended, but you are willingly doing this to yourself and then come on here for support and advice, which you basically ignore. This guy is beyond disgusting. You have to want better for yourself Leanne. Wake up. I am being blunt and I’m sorry if this hurts your feelings. I know we all heal at our own pace but you are participating in and prolonging the pain. You are focused on how he feels, how you look to him, whether he really loved you or not instead of what you are doing to yourself. He keeps sniffing around, but you aren’t saying NO, you are saying, hmmm, hows your weekend, maybe we shouldn’t talk, how are you, maybe we shouldn’t talk….then you answer his after work text which is clearly not about work. It’s gotta be hard in the workplace, but you are not being firm with him. You still have the door open and he knows it. Which makes him a smug asshole and you a willing participant. Cut the cord for good.
Thanks guys. I texted MM today and said, “sorry but I don’t think I can come by and chat this week/anymore. I’d really like to but I don’t think we are going to be able to be around each other and actually just be friends. And I don’t want to put you in a position that you regret later and that makes me feel bad. So sorry and hope you understand.” Just sent it so not sure if he’ll respond.
Thanks for your support and advice everyone! Okay, restarting mY NC count with day 1.. Feels good to have my moral compass working again. Thank you!!
Selkie is spot on Leanne. Please read her post again. And again and again. We wish you good luck with what is a very difficult situation (and I know first hand how hard workplace NC can be) but whether or not you succeed with NC is all up to you. Not him, you! And you will truly only be in NC when you don’t care if he responds – in fact you will block him so that he cannot respond. Until you do that, you are still just playing foolish games that are only going to hurt YOU.
Leanne, stop saying sorry to him, this is about you, your feelings, your life. You should never ever apologise for doing something that will make you feel better. Think about yourself and not him for a change.
Thanks @ selkie, this is really true and not who I want to be. Backing up and cutting the cord (it should be easier than this.. What is wrong with me??).
But yes, I am doing it. Will report back on my success soon. And thank you for your support despite my ridiculous waffling here.
It’s not ridiclous, it’s part of being human and making mistakes or choices that could be bad for us. Plus a bit of denial mixed in. None of us here are perfect and hell, I’ve made whopper size mistakes, but eventually I did what was the right thing to do and in my best interest, learned and moved on. I too, like Wiser mentioned above, have done things I’m not proud of that left a blot on my soul, and I still feel shame sometimes but it reminds me who I am NOT anymore. It took time, just like it will for you, but I finally decided I wanted to be happy and no one was responsible for that but me. Do the right thing, morally and for your own peace and well being. Otherwise you’ll keep digging your own holes to fall into.
Leanne, there are comments saying dont be friends as you have feelings for him still. Too true. And also — he’s married, cheating on his pregnant wife, with you. This has to horrify you into action. You cannot have friends that cheat on their pregnant wives with you. By definition, this person will never ever ever ever be your friend. Even if you eventually start having platonic coffee meetings with him, it will be a deceitful illusion.
If you think you can be friends you need to rethink what friends really mean to you.
Re. the anxiety — please restart therapy, or start reading CBT for dummies, its a useful book.
You ask what is wrong with you – I know you meant this rhetorically but I’ll think of an answer anyway — odds are you aren’t ready for someone available, and of course being with an MM that won’t leave their wives kicks in the pick-me feeling doesnt it. He made her pregnant. He’s married to her. Yet you can get him to pay attention – in that moment you think you are winning. Lets not deny that this is a huge dynamic to the MM situation. You are disrespecting this woman every time you pay him the smallest attention including an email that says i still like you. You want to be picked. He has already picked. He will not pick you. You are living the illusion that you have power. You dont have power except to hurt her. You are not picked. You have to fully cut contact in your mind, and move on. You cannot like him. You have yet to see him for who he is. You are still thinking you’ve lost something – no you didn’t lose him, you never had him.
Hes not your friend. He was never your friend or your boyfriend. He can never be your friend. You’re fooling yourself, he fooled you. This was not Jim and Pam, this is not a great romance. You are responsible for getting yourself into a mess and you are prolonging the moment that you fully acknowledge that you are responsible for this. I’m sorry its harsh, but you need to sit with the feeling and accept that this was a mistake. A mistake that you should learn from. I dont know if you are ready to acknowledge that MMs are a bad idea, that you will never do this again because you see how lousy it is etc. We commiserate with you, and he is definitely a total AC, but you are responsible for this situation. Not half responsible. Fully and utterly responsible.
Thats what forgiveness is. Till you acknowledge the wrong you have done yourself, you can’t forgive yourself and move on.
(it should be easier than this.. What is wrong with me??).
Two things:
1) You expected it to be a lot easier, but a lot of important things in life are actually really, really hard and hurt a lot, eg. childbirth.
2) Your heart is not in it; you’d rather stick with the pain you know and are comfortable with, than risk a new and interesting pain in being without him.
We’re all trying to encourage you to choose the third way, between the rocks: the way that restores your dignity and inner peace, and also sets you free from old demons. This way is painful, but the worst is over quickly, and after that, life starts getting really interesting.
Be brave.
@ Leanne,
Thanks guys. I texted MM today and said, “sorry but I don’t think I can come by and chat this week/anymore. I’d really like to but I don’t think we are going to be able to be around each other and actually just be friends. And I don’t want to put you in a position that you regret later and that makes me feel bad. So sorry and hope you understand.” Just sent it so not sure if he’ll respond.
Oh Leanne….. He knows has you truly don’t want to break away… because you truly don’t want to break away. Your text is just further solidifying that. And you two are NOT friends. That is just a term he throws around to 1. soften the blow for you and 2. keep some sort of ‘hook’ into you. These guys know that just plainly saying ‘you are essentially a prostitute that I don’t have to pay afterwards’ so they use the term ‘friend’ because they know that women like to feel there is/was more to them and a guy than there really is at times. The term ‘friends’ is just another trick in these unsavory guys bag of tricks. Women use the term friends to keep a hook in as well and to not feel ‘used’.
Thanks guys. I texted MM today and said, “sorry but I don’t think I can come by and chat this week/anymore. I’d really like to but I don’t think we are going to be able to be around each other and actually just be friends. And I don’t want to put you in a position that you regret later and that makes me feel bad. So sorry and hope you understand.” Just sent it so not sure if he’ll respond.
And this, ladies and gents, is why we have a thing called the No Contact Rule …
Oh Leanne. You are making very heavy weather of this because you’re learning just how much it can hurt. Wake up and smell the coffee.
But you simply have to get through this first stage of NC, or you’ll be posting the same stuff here in five years’ time, when his third child is due. Still in the same job, unable to leave, and still asking ‘Do you think it’s OK if I [engage in some form of unwise boundary-busting behaviour]?
And everyone at BR will say, ‘Noooooooo, Leanne, you need to stick to NC’ …
So why not take the one guaranteed short cut to happiness and go NC, and stick to it? Easiest way to go NC at work? TELL YOUR BOSS IN CONFIDENCE ABOUT THE ‘AFFAIR’. Embarrassing, but I tell you what – it will stop this whole mess in its tracks, before you end up like this lady.
If Toni McHugh had broken up with Gerard Baden-Clay, and told her boss about the affair, Alison Baden-Clay might still be alive today.
Leanne,
That sounds like you’re wanting him to change your mind. You’re still leaving the door open. Be firm, not apologetic. He doesn’t deserve to have you worrying about his feelings. I know this is hard for you but you have got to put yourself first. Take those “feeling sorry for him” feelings and apply them to you. He’s married. YOU are the victim not him.
Tinkerbell,
My view is that she was knowingly in cohorts with a married guy rather than seeing her as a victim. The only true victim here is the unborn child…
Leanne, firm and unambiguous messages communicate self respect and conviction – a short “do not contact me. It is over”. After the enth time that this married man (who is going to have a baby with his wife by the way) contacts you again because he knows you still worry about what he thinks of you and whatever he says to the contrary he *does not respect* that, you may start to examine why you felt it necessary to tell him you are ‘sorry’.
(This is him right now; I can’t believe my luck – me! my very own deceitful scum bag self! Wow this is my lucky day/week/year, the door is still open!)
Leanne, the caring and respectful thing to do for yourself when he contacts you next is to delete/don’t answer, if you have not already blocked him. This also happens to be the most respectful action to take in regards to pulling the plug on your part in the deception of his pregnant wife.
If you find you cannot control your compulsion to respond perhaps you could alter this: “sorry but I don’t think I can come by and chat this week/anymore. I’d really like to but I don’t think we are going to be able to be around each other and actually just be friends. And I don’t want to put you in a position that you regret later and that makes me feel bad. So sorry and hope you understand.”
to something like this:”I do not want to to see you or have contact with you any more. I do not want to be friends with you. Understand that I have made my decision and there will be no further communication between us”. You are not in a mutual and co-piloted relationship with him, so whilst there is certainly no point in denying to yourself and suppressing the feeling that you still want this married man and father-to-be, it is pointless and self sabotaging to hint at or share those feelings with him. But first and foremost – it is entirely inappropriate as he is married, not to mention having his first baby this year with his wife.
Enough said and I wish you good luck via cyber land.
@selkie, “community penis”, haha, that made me laugh.
@rags mom, are you OK? You’ve gone quiet on us. I hope that you’re just really busy living and haven’t come unstuck somehow. Hugs.
Thanks guys, going to spend the next couple days reading and re-reading your responses (and my old posts and how they made me feel). I think I am on crack here with my feelings vs. the reality of this situation. I need to stay away from this guy because it’s out of hand (my feelings) and I don’t know why (he is a total AC). No rational sense to it! I wish I had a new job right away because this is so difficult. I don’t want to engage in anything shitty. I need to stop these feelings and stay away from this guy. Thanks for your support. I am going to make a new mini-goal: NC til the end of next week and then set a new goal from there.
Leanne, ok, one more thing.
“I need to stop these feelings and stay away from this guy.”
Reverse and modify that.
I suggest this:
First, say to yourself *I need to stay away from him, PERIOD* and DO IT. If you’re waiting for the feelings to ‘stop’ as a precursor to NC, then I think you know what the answer is going to be.
Then second, rather than start from “I need to stop these feelings”, start with ‘I need to understand/explore and take seriously these feelings’. Feel your feelings and begin to unravel yourself and see what is under and beneath. What is in *you*, what do you believe about yourself – are you driven to win, to be chosen, to be picked?.This has been a painful experience and you can learn from it.
*Choose to simply ‘stop’ your feelings aka as suppressing and ignoring them, and odds on you’re going to find yourself in similar destructive and harmful situations down the track.
I was thinking the same thing Lizzp, that Leanne needs to start separating her feelings from her actions. Her feelings will need to be felt, suffered, reflected upon and simply endured for some time – but no matter what she feels she needs to stay away from him. This is not easy to do at the same time and we all know it. It’s like an itch that demands to be scratched, but that’s the very thing we have to resist doing. Hell, I had very strong feelings for the ex for a full year after I was seriously NC and I also had to work with him. It hurt like a hot knife in the heart for a long time – sometimes crazy desire for him would flare up and I had to just sit there with it. I would cry from loneliness and then would rage from being humiliated. I hated him and then I envied him and then longed for him – my emotions were all over the place. For a full year. But my feelings were separate from my resolve to stay NC. It’s a boundary and a commitment we make with ourselves and for ourselves, for our self-respect as we move towards being the people of dignity and integrity we want to be.
@colly.. How are things going with you the last couple days?? How many days NC?
And yes @rags mom.. Where are you? Hope all is well!
Hi Leanne,
I’m doing well thanks, I’m 5 days NC, and I have to say that in the last few days things have really started to sink in and make more sense than they ever have so far. I can feel my mind moving on, and with it my sense of self growing, and I’m feeling better than I have done for a long time.
In my previous NC efforts I can see that I’ve been playing a cat and mouse game with ex MM, thinking “f**k you” and being smugly satisfied if he seemed upset with me, and spending too much time thinking about the fact that I am NC. This time, and I acknowledge its early days, things feel different.
I had to have a phone call with him yesterday for work and invited a colleague along to it so that there was no chance for personal chat. It worked well, and having the colleague there really helped me detach from it being him on the phone, and I was listening to just another colleague. I also found that I was finding him pretty boring, and it made me remember how he sometimes used to lecture me on things and how I used to find it boring then but pushed the feeling down. Ha ha, this was helped by my colleague IMing me in the call saying “yawn” when he was doing it. I guess I’m starting to wonder what I saw in him. He seemed really pissy on the call btw, pretty hostile.
Later on there was a crisis situation and I had to mail him and ask him to set up a call for my team with an external company (he is their point person). He tried to get me to call him about it but I emailed back and said I was busy on another call. He sent out the meeting request and I accepted and just said a straight “Thank you” as I would to anyone who had dropped things to do something for me. He wrote back and said “No problem. Ever.” I deleted. This is another of his typical statements at the moment “always” is another I get. Like I’m supposed to melt and think he’s my knight in shining armour or something. I can’t be bothered with it, its self serving BS on his part.
So, I’m feeling OK I think. I hope that you stay strong. One thing I’d say is you can’t make the penny drop about them, it just happens. As I relaxed and stopped trying so hard I think I gave myself the chance to let things sink in.
Take care.
I’ve tried to post a few times but somehow it doesn’t work.
I really liked reading these posts, it’s as if finally I have found somewhere where I read exactly how I feel….and can rest my heavy heart, my broken self esteem and my embarrassment for what I have done.
I slept with a MM who was a colleague for four months, only for him to ditch me for his former lover, who was in a new relationship, because they had promised to always sleep with each other. He said he loved her,
And he justified this ditching me by saying that our relationship had been casual. It may have been… It had to be if he was a MMm I knew that, but that didn’t mean he could treat me worse than anyone else, ie his wife or the lover. I told him that,
I tried to be Teflon and let things slide off, and move on quickly. After he was so awful, I told myself I forgave him and was cool and calm….why should I let him see I care, why should I care? I knew he was a player.
Of course I dd care and in pretending to be cool I lied to myself and thus found myself back in Mms bed, when he was visiting for work, feeling like I was in control but in fact inside I was totally broken. I told no one, as was too embraced to tell my friends. He treated me so badly it still makes mec dy just thinking about it. Even writing this is painful…..eg phoning and emailing the lover in front of me, literally making me leave his room and apartment so he could call her. I can’t believe that was me, I cried for ages at what I had done, more than what he had done.
Anyway I the end I had no choice, as the lover visited. I left town, broken on so many levels. I saw a therapist twice, it kind of helped but I felt stuck. One day after the lover left, he emailed me again.
I started NC. He emailed occasionally and as time went on I felt better so then have broken NC several times. But the longest NC was about 1 mth after which be emailed me over Christmas.
Thing is, by now I am feeling tired of feeling sad, and bad, so I reply thinking I was fine. Mistake…. as he has suggested we meet again and before I know it, I am feeling anxious, insecure and angry again.
My question is I know I was treated badly as the third choice and not even with respect. Do I tell, him I’m still angry and hurt?
Or do I play it cool, reply saying I can or can’t meet, depending I what I want to do?
I find some of the suggestions here Eg saying he has to “eff off” too difficult to deliver. I have found myself in depths of worse anxiety and even depression when I have done that before.
What to do? Does forgiveness mean I can still be friends? I keep wishing I’d called it a day before he had been able to hurt me, but tell myself that perhaps THat was my lessons. Somehow i had to learn it the hard way. I know I have severe self esteem and confidence issues, mainly end cause although I am popular I’ve never had a proper relationship before ( I’m 38 yrs old!)
I look around and see normal people in healthy relationships and wonder how they do fit or how it happens? The MM pursued me but very few do….I was flattered. And the physical side was great. Ofcourse I knew it ws wrong, but the double whammy of then being ditched for another lover, was even worse, I know I was lied to and manipulated. I have colleagues who stil to this day say this MM was their favourite colleague, where or not they now he was a cheater. SMS of them met the former lover, often he lied to them as well.
They love him, he messed me am around. I find I can’t even hangout with my colleagues as I feel they are betraying me, although they don’t know. I somehow have protected this guy for so long, it makes no sense,
How to move on? Does forgiving mean you can start to be friends. A,though I don’t know if I even want to be with him!
I feel if I met someone else which probably won’t happen, if might feel better. But I’m too old for most of here single men I meet and am starting to feel that the MM may have been the only person who will ever show me any attention or be attracted to me.
@ICan’tBelieveIFoundThis: I don’t think you’ve been here very long or you would know that you need to go no contact immediately, and you do not need to tell him why, give him an explanation, apologize for it, or anything else. How much consideration for you did he have when he was texting another woman in front of your face? Absolutely none. You don’t owe him anything. And no you can’t be friends, because you don’t sound like you ever WERE friends. He wanted casual sex with you, casual sex with his “lover,” and apparently some kind of relationship with his wife on top of it. That’s all he wants. It’s extremely sad to hear you say that you feel this is the best you will ever get. I am older than you, I too wonder if I will ever meet a single man who is attracted to me again and whom I’m attracted to, but you know what? I’d sure as HELL rather not than be in your position and feel all of that anger, angst, depression, and humiliation. Being single does have its benefits, and peace of mind, serenity, pride, and self-esteem are just some of them. Ladies, I’m sure you have more to say.
ICBIFT, you know that’s how they are lucky enough to get us, right? The fact that we don’t believe we can do better. Our own belief shortchanges us, and we grab on to the AC because somehow we feel he gives us some status via his good traits.
But. We are WRONG.
Dump him and don’t look back. Please, let’s stop getting our self esteem from our relationships with ACs. Stop Stop Stop.
@Ican’tbelieveIfoundthis-
This man’s treatment of you is appallingly disgusting. Prove to yourself that you are a woman of class, by not responding to anymore of his contact ever. No Contact *is* very uncomfortable for all of us Fallback Girls at first; it goes against every needy, hopeful/delusional instinct we have. But it works like a charm! By the time you have ignored two or three of his attempts at contact, you will feel like a completely different woman, I promise. It’s an incredibly empowering feeling. Seize back the reins!! Go No Contact!!!!!!
(I’m in NC at the moment with my most recent EUM, and I can tell you that now that he has attempted to reach out to me three times, and I have ignored all three attempts, I am actually starting to like myself again.)
ICBIFT, welcome to the Real World of sanity, hope and a real future! BR is great; it’s changed my life.
Mistake…. as he has suggested we meet again and before I know it, I am feeling anxious, insecure and angry again.
Yes – learn to listen to your real HEART. Not the stupid romantic one, but your real inner self, which is telling you very loudly to get away because you are very unhappy with this person.
My question is I know I was treated badly as the third choice and not even with respect. Do I tell, him I’m still angry and hurt?
Or do I play it cool, reply saying I can or can’t meet, depending I what I want to do?
You say nothing at all to him. Instead, you search this site, using the search engine, for all blog posts on ‘The No Contact Rule’.
If you like what you read there, you get the book. And you DO IT, girl, day by day, until this man is absolutely flushed from your system and your life. The more faithful you are to No Contact (NC), the sooner it works.
You might also like to read about being a Fallback Girl for a Mr Unavailable. Very insightful, given your situation.
I find some of the suggestions here Eg saying he has to “eff off” too difficult to deliver. I have found myself in depths of worse anxiety and even depression when I have done that before.
You only tell him to eff off in your own head. You do not say one single word to him at all, either by phone or text or sky-writing or carrier pigeon. Nothing. Nada. Zip. No matter how many times he tries to contact you.
What to do? Does forgiveness mean I can still be friends?
He’s not your friend. He has never been your friend. He will never be your friend.
That isn’t to say that you’re incapable of friendship; of course you are, and you are probably a perfectly nice person in real life. But you’ve made a mistake with this man, and now you have to get your life back in order and your head screwed back on straight.
I know I have severe self esteem and confidence issues, mainly end cause although I am popular I’ve never had a proper relationship before ( I’m 38 yrs old!)
That’s interesting. There will be really good reasons for why you have never had what you call a ‘proper’ relationship.
Don’t forget that non-sexual and non-romantic relationships are still relationships, by the way – don’t think the couple-romance thing is some kind of gold standard, because it simply isn’t.
I feel if I met someone else which probably won’t happen, if might feel better. But I’m too old for most of here single men I meet and am starting to feel that the MM may have been the only person who will ever show me any attention or be attracted to me.
You are never too old to grow up, change, develop, learn about yourself, overcome bad habits and old miseries, have a happy childhood, and have fulfilling relationships.
Don’t rush back in. You are very vulnerable right now, and it’s very likely you will simply get burned again by someone different.
Time to start taking care of YOU, for a change … Good luck and happy travels on this site.
Great post EtU! You nailed it.
ICantBelieveIFoundThis!
Well the other ladies have said all that needs to be said. This guy sounds like a prize AC.
You always deserve better than that.
Immediate NC necessary, no explanations, just NC.
Wow, ladies, I am so proud to be part of a group of women who are trying their best to watch another’s woman’s back. A woman who doesn’t even know it. This poor pregnant woman no doubt thinks her husband is a great guy! Unfortunately, you won’t be able to hold back the walls on this doosh forever and he’ll eventually have an affair behind her back (with or without Leanne, he is obviously quite eager for something besides his poor suffering wife) but how honorable of you all to try and to care about her so much! Now this, indeed, is why I always refused to get pregnant. I had so many married men hit on me when I was younger. My first time? 13 years old. I had babysat the kids of a lovely couple and when they came back from their evening out I watched them interact for a moment — both were gorgeous– and thought “ah, now that is what everyone wants.” Until the husband drove me home. As he parked in my driveway to let me out, he placed his hand on my knee, asked me if I had a boyfriend, and leaned over to kiss me. I leapt out of the car as if my hair was on fire. I didn’t tell anyone (I had no idea what had just happened, or even if I’d imagined it somehow) but never babysat for them again. Of course even if I HAD somehow managed to tell the wife, she wouldn’t have believed me.
Diane,
Wow the state of some men and in this case married doosh had no regard you were so young (13?!?!?) hence deplorable the mental state of some people. I think of children involved in sex slavery and in any situation where they are highly taken advantage of by (mentally unstable to say the least) adults….my heart bleeds 🙁 I hope the wound experienced at 13 years is at some peaceable resolution in your heart and mind.
In regard to the wife (Leanne’s situation), I am not wishing to make any assumptions there particularly when nothing is said of her only that the unborn child is truly the victim here.
I guess for Leanne is that when/if she herself becomes a wife will this situation fully hit home should her husband do exactly what this guy is doing to his wife now (and finds out about it) as she doesn’t seem to have any sympathy and empathy for the guy’s wife (who is now with child).
I have sympathy and empathy for this guys wife. That’s why I cut things off. We fooled around for about 2 months before I found out she was pregant. And now it has stopped. Seriously people, I’ve just been looking for a little support to get through this as I already feel shitty enough.
Leanne, so far you have asked for and received a TON of support from different people on this site, and I’m sure this will continue.
But so far you haven’t made any real changes at all – just a lot of expressing anger and unhappiness and resentment. We’ve all been there; we all understand. But that’s not the same as making actual changes.
Remember also that there are people on this site who have come out of marriages where their parter cheated on them, and they are naturally seeing your story from the other side of the fence. You can’t really expect unalloyed sympathy from them, can you?
If you want things to change, you have to change things. I know that’s what I’m waiting/hoping to see.
Ultimately the choice is yours, but if you keep making poor choices, you will get called out on it here. I did, and various people pointed this out to me, and I didn’t like it any more than you do, but it did me a lot of good once I started taking them seriously.
Leanne, People on here, myself included, have given of their time in response to your comments asking for help. The responses have been both sympathetic and empathetic. The question of our own accountability and responsibility for the situations we are in is important and not exclusive to either pity (sympathy) or empathy. Suggesting that you look at things from the perspective of responsibility and accountability has been the response of many when you have asked “what should I do” and for help. As for the subject of this article -forgiveness – what could be more relevant?Ignoring and/or minimising our own responsibility and accountability is not supportive of ourselves or others in the process of’letting go’. It is your choice how you construe support,and that is yours to own, not mine or other ‘people’ on this site who have taken the time to respond to you.
It’s not the ‘peoples’ here lack of support, as you imply, that ‘makes’ you feel more shitty.
“We fooled around for about 2 months before I found out she was pregnant. And now it has stopped. Seriously people…”. That’s a little bit of crazy making minimisation, given the agonies you have gone through and just a few hours ago were still going through. It’s crazy making to yourself, it’s dishonest to yourself. It’s a tad crazy making, too, to the people on here who have responded to you when you have asked for advice. Leanne, Can’t you see that?
Leanne, sorry but you cut things off because he told you he wan’t going to leave his wife. The news about the pregnancy came after. Re read your posts. It *wasn’t* about his wife for you and that is ok, I get it, and so does everyone else here (I’d guess)- it’s just the truth. But, you can make his wife an important part of staying NC *now*. People on here have been there and understand how we can get ourselves into these situations. Plenty of responses to you have spoken to this. I slept with a man (a colleague) I knew was in a stable relationship in my twenties because he offered and I knew I could get away with it. I knew from the get go it wasn’t ‘going anywhere’ and carried on for my own selfish purposes – to get some validation for my shot self esteem (doesn’t work). I can tell you I didn’t give his long term partner a thought, I did not give a sh*t as long as she didn’t find out. I stopped when the situation no longer served my purpose (he got together with another -more long term – lover in front of me one eve and that put a blow to his usefulness to me as validation giving object and I immediately gave him up – though not my validation seeking – that continued on using others), *not out of empathy for his partner*. Just as you did not stop out of empathy for his wife. As other’s have put it, this and other selfish choices, blotted my soul until I understood what I was doing and took a good look at the fall out effect of my validation seeking. I thought I was a person that valued honesty and deplored deception but what ho, my actions sure said different. How could I complain about the deceptions of others to me back then, when I was cut from the same block. Living on the deceptions we tell to ourselves and others, Leanne it is a shite way to live.
Leanne, you have a chance to learn from this as we all have the chance to learn from our mistakes and misconceptions and self deceptions. It’s an ongoing process but start with an honest conversation with yourself.
Leanne, I know it doesn’t feel like it but being tough with you IS being supportive – much more than just holding your hand and soothing you and saying “there, there” – because you are doing the wrong thing here and you need honesty from us, not soothing. So the kindest response we can give is to keep gently but firmly pointing that out to you. There are so many wonderful, strong women on this site who have been exactly where you are and KNOW what they are talking about – learn from them! Once you get serious about NC you will find this group the most supportive bunch possible!
Leanne,
Please stay with us and keep posting. I posted several months back and wasn’t ready for some of the comments, my ego jumped in and I backed away and went quiet. I know if I’d stayed hear and listened I would have recovered more quickly. Stick with us, we all want you to get to a good place.
hear hear. You know even after a few months, I almost cry when I think of some of the things that happened. I know by now it should be easier, but it feels like I cant let go. I have read some great pages on this site about not wanting to let go of the feelings…its almost like remebering and suffering is a comfort that you hold on to for whatever reason.
today a colleague referred to the Other Other Woman (the one I ewas ditched for who wasnt the wife!) as the AC’s “girlfriends”. Yup the AC was away from home on a work project, his girlfriend used to visit, and he would parade her round, take her out, do romantic things together. I find the most perplexing thing is – that was all going on for years before I met him/got involved. And yet all my colleagues knew about her, the fact she was a permanent fixture and the label of “girlfriend” really jarred. Did he introduce her as such? How did I now know?
Sometimes nothing NOTHING makes sense!
I….., Looks to me like you are doing great. It took me much more time to even begin to touch that well of pain. Let yourself cry every time you feel like it, that is the best release you can have, and you’ll find yourself feeling much better soon.
About your Awful, awful colleagues, here’s an interesting article about ‘innocent’ bystanders (hopefully Natalie won’t mind, this was never discussed as such in her posts, to my knowledge):
Best, V.
The Prayer
Andrea Bocelli and Heather Headley
Recorded at Lake Las Vegas Resort.
”Under The Desert Sky” (2006)
LYRICS:
I pray you’ll be our eyes, and watch us where we go.
And help us to be wise in times when we don’t know.
Let this be our prayer, as we go our way.
Lead us to a place, guide us with your grace
To a place where we’ll be safe.
La luce che tu dai
Nel cuore restera
A ricordarci che
L’eterna stella sei.
I pray we’ll find your light,
And hold within our hearts
And stars go out each night,
Ai,ai………………..
Nella mia preghiera
Quanta fede c’e.
Lead us to a place
Let this be our prayer
When shadows fill our day
Guide us with your grace
Give us faith so we’ll be safe.
Sogniamo un mondo senza piu violenza,
Un mondo di giustizia e di speranza.
Ognuno dia una mano al suo vicino,
Simbolo di pace…di fraternita.
La forza che ci dai
E desiderio te
Ognuno trovi amor
Intorno e dentro se.
Let this be our prayer,
Just like every child.
We ask that life be kind
And watch us from above.
We hope each soul will find
Another soul to love.
Let this be our prayer,
Just like every child.
Needs to find a place, guide us with your grace
Give us faith so we’ll be safe
E la fede che hai acceso in noi
Sento che ci salverai…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7MD7f1MsGs
I think I need to forgive myself.
I ended a relationship over two years ago, and I have regretted it, some days more than others. I can’t talk about it with people in my life because they wouldn’t understand. I haven’t had a meaningful relationship since, and feel one is far from me. She found someone right away and recently married him. I just had a dream about meeting the newlyweds at a good friend’s home, which is why I’m writing.
I know you’re supposed to be happy on your own before you can be happy with someone else, bla bla bla, so my intention when i left was exactly that, to not rebound into something else, and havent. I couldn’t see a way to be happy with her at the time, and *I fuckin did this to myself!* I can’t take it back, and I’m embarrassed to admit I’m unhappy about it. Now I’m bitter about being single, that I did it to myself, and that I’m not happier now.
I have a hard time putting myself out there for the love i want in my life again, and online dating tells me I’m going to be single abd looking a long time. I wish I had the tools back then to have changed this outcome. Soon I’ll be hearing about her babies. It’s inevitable, and I’ll still be surfing the web looking for some encouragement. Awesome.
Hi there,
Firstly, words cannot describe how happy I am to have discovered this site! Ordered all three books, been reading them and site avidly for a month or so. This is a haven for all hurt women (and men) out there!
I have a really hard time forgiving myself and the idiot I got involved with at work. We had a ‘fling’ or whatever you can even call the whole mess, we were really good friends and some time after he broke up with his ex, told me he wanted sex (FWB). I was not even interested and told first that it would be too complicated, but having no boundaries or self-esteem, decided to mess around as “there was nothing else going on anyway”. Little did I know how much I ended up hurting myself, not because I had feelings for him but obviously a lot of buried pain from previous experiences with men came suddenly up, rejection issues, fantasizing, projection and all kinds of crazy stuff.
I had to go NC with the guy a couple months back. Even though the fling ended ages ago, we were still friends but I could not bear to be around him anymore. He seemed to only need my friendship when he wanted, talk/complain only about his interests and worse, avoid me or have less contact when he had a new woman in the loop. I tried reducing contact, he didn’t get it. Then I started NC, but never telling him why. I was so ashamed and embarrassed and did not want him to think too much of himself, especially when he was really just the tip of the iceberg in my huuuge baggage.
But here’s the thing: I see him five days a week, work non-stop with him. I am finding it hard to behave when he is around. I try to avoid him, be polite and distant and he’s just confused. I cannot even once slip a joke without him picking that up and trying to reconnect the friendship. This is exhausting me out, I still get very angry, sad, feel hopeless, hopeful, happy, indifferent, everything from good to bad. Changing jobs is not an option. How have you recovered from this? I am trying very hard to focus on myself and my issues but seeing him all the time makes it so difficult to move on.
I took a step back to this about what I wrote, haven’t read any feedback yet, I want to say it wasn’t all for naught. I’ve grown, in many ways, I’ve had my ups and downs. And I’ve met many women just not one i felt was what i am looking for. I shouldn’t complain, I’d like to have some history between me and a significant other. Actually, there has been one i have some history with. That’s a subject I should explore, and I better do that in person…
Hello Evvie,
Wow, that you have to work with him is rough on the heart. I don’t have that daily contact to drive the salt into the wound. But that were not talking (3 sides to that story), yes, it’s over signed sealed and delivered. It ended terribly, both have responsibility and I’ve avoided moving on. What part of story and I holding onto? The powerless part of me can’t control seeing her with him. It still stings, and funny i had this dream this morning clear as day in my face. Natalie hit it on the head, it was triggered.
Natalie said It’s important to note that we can fall into the trap of not acknowledging the usefulness of discovering that we can be triggered by something – these are actually opportunities to take the sting out of past (and present) events and to reframe the story.”
No. Kidding. Thank you (universe). I needed that.
I’ve got to get on with life and living, which she has done well (i still have this girl on a pedestal), and she took advantage of my trust of her with my kids and did something unthinkable in my mind (not sexual abuse), to hurt me, in numerous ways, and I’m powerless to respond directly but to move on.
Deepend, thanks for reminding about the triggers. I’ve done a whole lot of progress in the past weeks and am no longer constantly having negative reactions to all interactions with the idiot… but still, the work continues. I think I am still confused as to which part of my NC is ‘appropriate’ and whether I am (un/knowingly) trying to punish the guy for his actions. Hence, the feelings of guilt are also appearing now and then. Sometimes it just feels as if I am overreacting and on other occasions I feel pure rage of how I was treated like a buffer.
What really sucks is that I am a bubbly, fun person, want everyone to feel good about themselves and hate to have any personal conflict, although oddly enough, am comfortable with disagreeing and being in conflict situations in work matters. I absolutely loathe it that I now have to ‘minimize’ my personality because of NC. Well, at least until I can be completely indifferent towards the jerk.
And yeah, another challenge I have is that of course the guy has been complaining about me to a couple of his closest colleagues. As if I am the bad person in this situation (!), and you know, without having insight into the whole mess, even I would be prone to make the judgement about me behaving harshly, or oddly at the very least.
Hi Evvie,
It’s tough to set boundaries between us and people who need to be kept at a distance. My ex took my kids out with her then brand new bf, without asking my permission if it was ok that they meet, and she did it twice. I didn’t find out till 5 months later when my daughter told me about it. I actually had the opportunity to confront her in person the day I found out, but she’s never seen them again. She had already been using her proximity to my kids, friends, and family, to talk trash me to my nearest and dearest, while she broadcast all over Facebook how great new guy is at the same time. I applied no contact to her because she was running amuck all over my heart and deliberately. When I confronted her about her infractions with my kids she said “if the kids and I are good to be friends you’re going to have to accept that he (new guy) is my family now”. I told her that I make the decision about who my kids are allowed to meet (which she knows from witnessing me deal with my ex-wifes crack head bf the last 3 years), and if she wanted to see my kids she’d have to respect my wishes. She told me she’d respect what the kids wanted – twice, and opposed respecting my wishes. We went NC with her that day, to which she raged all over Facebook in front of my friends and family who loved her, mourning her “sunshines” that I took away from her, even rallying support from my friends against me for making the choice to break contact with her. I have felt sometimes more, sometimes less horrible about the whole thing and how it panned out, and how easy it was for her to jump into the next relationship, which dude she recently married. Congratulations. For someone who told my nearest and dearest that I destroyed her hope of marriage she’s done surprisingly well, and I’m still in the dumps about it.
I’ve been trying to put my heart together from the pieces left on the floor, but to tell you the truth I don’t feel much anymore, for anyone. I am trying to move on and look up and be positive. I’ve been single and dating the just over two years.
One more thing. My ex even went so far as having her mom contact my then 10 year old daughter on Facebook to tell her that my ex is sad that i won’t let her be their friend, but that she my kids are old enough to make their own decisions she will be waiting for them, and that’s 6 months after the breakup, 5 months into her new relationship.
ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?!?!
Her last words to me were that she will see my kids even if she has to wait till they’re 18 to do so, and she hopes it pisses me off to no end!! Oh, i forgot that she ended with she hates me with every fibre of her being!! Sounds happy in a new relationship, right?!
Ugh, Deepend, its awful when kids are involved. You sound like you are still very angry at your ex and are probably justified about how your children are being used. One consolation is that your children will grow up soon and hopefully have their own relationship with their dad (you) for themselves – I think its just important to try to still be there for them, whatever the nastiness is behind it all and rise above the pettiness.
In terms of the ex (and for me, him,) I go through periods when I wish I had done something different in the hope it would have changed the outcome (ie called it a day about 2 mths before I did, ie before the former lover or so-called “girlfriend” reappeared and he became even more of an a-hole)
I kick myself when I remember the moment when I wanted to call it a day, but then didn’t. I didnt feel I could….I felt trapped.
And yet…..I think it may not have changed any outcome longer term.. Sure I HATE that I have had to have this painful lesson – however positive people here say it is to learn, boost self esteem, work on self etc. But I still wish I had not had to learn it this way!
I dont get the part about triggers taking the sting out of things though….I wish there were no feelings any more.
Evvie – I understand how you feel. My MM AC was also a colleague (a popular one) and I feel at work that I have “lost’ myself through this: even though hardly anyone knew, I have felt less positive about human kind, my colleagues, the colleagues who hung out and liked his ‘girlfriend’ ie not the wife (and Im still appalled at how they condoned this).
I have become more cynical about marriage (‘everyone cheats”) about being single (“its not that great even if one is overflowing with self esteem”) about anyone from the country the other-other woman was from (“ridiculous’) about the way I look (” at the end he told me I looked like the other woman….YUK! I dont want to look like her!”) and so on.
Ive lost my own sense of what I think is right and wrong.
But in the hope I find myself again, I remind myself that he was flattering, persuasive about us continuing long distance (I was prob the back up as his girlfriend had met someone else/ wasn’t going to visit him as difficult to get a visa as she’s foreign/ he was already bored back at home with his wife).
He said he was always honest to me (not true) and was pretty ‘well behaved” and never really had affairs, apart from the girlfriend and me. Ha ha ha. Good grief. Then again, his friends also seem pretty promiscuous and cheated a lot as well. Different benchmark.
Main thing is not him, but that I have to try to forgive myself for doing what I did, on the basis of how I felt at the time and what I knew. Is that right?
I wish everyday that HE had not done what he did, so that I could not hate him. A wise older friend of mine says no, its good he did, because he showed his true colours and makes it easier for me! Id have prefered not to have been hurt though.
And as Natalie said, I have to get over the part where I felt entitled to sleep with him as the sole lover despite him being married. which I know is wrong too!
Thanks ICantBelieve. I think for you, the process of forgiving and letting go is still very much ongoing. Whatever the reason for getting involved with AC MM, you need to find it in yourself, whether it is low self-esteem, fear of rejection or other issues. Natalie pointed out somewhere that the universe keeps throwing the same challenges to us over and over again until we get the point and change our thoughts and behaviours. For some, this path may be long and complex, but there is no point in comparing others because we all have our own life. No one has any better than you do.
I had a somewhat of an epiphany over the weekend. I was reading Nat’s post on assclowns and ACs and how our relationship with our fathers (or mothers) affect the kind of company we attract. Even though I had previously sort of thought about my difficult (or rather non-existent) relations with my dad, this angle really hit home. It is difficult to describe, but suddenly I was able to forgive more and let go of the jerk at work (or the fantasies and ideas I held), even laughing at the poor guy and feeling pity for him and his future girlfriend/s. He has to live with his actions every day, whether he recognizes the poor treatment or not. Hell, maybe karma already came back to him with a vengeance. I don’t know and don’t even care that much.
Maybe the point I am making here is the same that gets repeated often: take the focus out of him and put it back to you. After that, there is acknowledgment, forgiveness, hope and moving on.
Hi ICantBelieveIFoundThis!
I cut ties with the ex after finding our about the things concerning my kids, which will be 2 years this April. What boils my blood is how she talked made and big promises and even crossed boundaries, to say she was going to wait for my kids, even if they had to be grown up to do so, and made sure my kids knew it, which started a year of no contact instituted by me, and broken by me. After a year away I had a lot of remorse over the loss of my former best friend and lover, and tried to contact her. I told her my regret about not loving her when had the chance and that I appreciated her more after she’s gone than when she was here. I asked her if she could forgive this old badger. She did respond, and did exchange a few messages with me. She appreciated saying my peace, but that she didn’t want a friendship because it’s been too long. This is coming from the girl who swore up and down to come back 4, 5, even 6 years from now to connect with my kids, and she’s now saying it’s been too long?! What a fuckin joke!! I have stressed about this woman just showing up out of nowhere to pay us a visit!! She went to though all that hulla ballo to turn my world upside down and made such strong claims to my kids then suddenly backs off to focus on her whirlwind romance. Yes, I’m still mad, but getting over it gradually.
I definitely agree. Forgiveness releases you from all the negativity you are feeling and helps you go on with your life. It doesnt mean that you are now okay with what the other has done but forgiving is letting go and moving forward after the pain.
OMG, you guys. I’ve been NC for 1 month now. Despite all the phone calls and texts, I kept calm and continued. After having so many attempts, he realized his attempts were of No significance. Now he goes to my mom. Begging her to talk me into giving him another opportunity for the relationship. What do I do?
He is trying to control you and your mom. Going through your mom is an attempt to use emotional blackmail to get his way.
I would ask your mom to stop answering the phone or preferably to block his number. She could also flatly tell him not to call her and attempt to manipulate her before she blocks him. He will realize his plan is not going to work. When your mom listens to him she is giving him positive reinforcement, so he will continue.
When someone does not respect your no, beware. Message: How dare you say no to me…
Keep strong and firm, they do eventually stop. But fair warning, they often show up out of the blue years later. Do yourself a favor and do not engage at all..time does not change them! I’ve had guys show up 8 years later to test the waters…exactly the same guy…hadn’t grown at all.
Good for you holding firm on NC!!
Best, Veracity