Many moons ago, I dated this complete jock strap when I was living over in the U.S. I’m not being mean –he really was grade A assclown material–but he was a knock-on effect of dropping the previous assclown. I tended to look for opposite qualities to the previous guy but neglected to take into account the qualities of the existing guy, and then when I ditched him (think alcohol issues, aggression, jealousy, and possessiveness amongst a number of things), a few months later I found myself going out with a ‘nice guy’.
I was attracted to the fact that he was an opposite (again). He was younger than me instead of being in the 7 to 10 years older category, he was seemingly quiet, unassuming, sweet, shy(ish), agreeable, sort of cute and didn’t appear to have any of the qualities that I usually sought out with my usual assclowns.
Three months later, the relationship was over.
The sweet guy became a pain in the arse, overgrown child, who was petulant, moody, possessive, manipulative with his sweetness and agreeability, and had me playing the responsible mother role. What had initially been attractive became like a noose around my neck.
I dated a few more actual nice guys with varying qualities and it was just so awkward and I feel sorry for some of them because the problem was me.
I played the opposites game for years, albeit unknowingly. What have I learned from this?
If you don’t deal with issues that affect your ability to engage in healthy relationships, you will pick varying partners with varying good and bad points that will be attractive for all of the wrong reasons and unattractive for all of the wrong reasons.
Basically, we’re unlikely to find happiness because we’re in No Man’s Land.
Pick an assclown and while we might feel serious lust and immeasurable feelings that we think are love, we’ll also be miserable because they are incapable of delivering on a decent relationship…which is why we chose them…
Pick a so-so guy or even The Nicest Guy on Earth and you’ll still be unhappy.
You might think he’s mocking you with his sweetness or think that he’s boring the crap out of you.
You’ll go along for the ride because you think that you should because you normally have such bad taste in men, but then find yourself trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, plus, because you haven’t dealt with why you were with the other guys, you’re not happy anyway and can’t enjoy the relationship.
And let me tell you something for nothing: If a guy wants to stick with you even in the face of your apathy and disinterest as he tries to sell you the idea of the relationship or fix the mistakes of the chumps that came before him, he is likely to have his own issues, because he could be out there forging a relationship with a woman who is actually interested in him instead of forcing one with a woman who isn’t.
His behaviour should be familiar to you–he’s doing what you have done in the past with men like Mr Unavailable.
So, no, you can’t force these things and much like when one of the Mr Unavailables that you get involved with will become a catalyst for showing you the way to a healthier you because enough suddenly becomes enough, the experience with a ‘nice guy’ can also be an opportunity for personal growth because you can see your typical behaviour mirrored in him and realise how unattractive it is.
Don’t be unfair to these guys and think you’re doing them a favour by being involved with them, and don’t rationalise your experience with them by deciding that you’re not like a man, because you have been with men who have been rationalising their poor actions to you and their inability to put both of their feet into the relationship, and it didn’t feel very nice when you were on the receiving end.
The only option you have is to opt out of this relationship.
If you’re going to return to it, it should be for the right reasons, i.e. because you have dealt with the issues that have held you back and you have got your emotional baggage down to hand baggage territory.
If he’s got issues he needs to deal with, he needs to deal with his too. But two sets of excess baggage equals an overloaded relationship plane waiting to crash.
Take the focus off him and bring it right back to you and stop avoiding dealing with issues that are impacting on how you feel about yourself and how you can engage in healthy relationships.
Your thoughts?
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NML…you really hit it out of the park with this one. I was just pondering this in one of your other posts. I said I had to let a “nice guy” go, because he was trying to convince me that he was right for me and that if we just give it time, I would grow to like him. NO, no, no. I saw the reg flags. You can’t try to convince someone to love or like you. I even questioned, is this the way I looked to my ex-EUM…always the nice person, always the forgiving one, even in the face of disrespect.?
When you wrote:
“And let me tell you something for nothing – If a guy wants to stick with you even in the face of your apathy and disinterest as he tries to sell you the idea of the relationship or fix the mistakes of the chumps that came before him, he is likely to have his own issues because he could be out there forging a relationship with a woman who is actually interested in him instead of forcing one with a woman who isn’t.”
That really says it all. You just can’t force these things. There has to be mutual attraction for the right reasons. I have had many situations on dating sites where men will want to propose marriage to you after three emails. I’m not kidding. I’m thinking to myself, how desperate are these people?
I know I was never that desperate but I do see some of the qualities of these “nice guys” in myself. I put up with so much crap from my EUM, there is no way he could have had an ounce of respect for me. I can see now that trying to please someone to win their love is absolutely the worst thing you can do.
I’m trying to be myself now. I’m doing a little dating but haven’t found the right person. i’ve said good bye to several ::”nice guys” because as much as I want to be in a relationship, I:m not going to try to force one. Love should come naturally. I thought I had found it with my EUM and in the beginning it was wonderful….but the minute he started to flake out on me I should have stood up for myself and not become the doormat that I did. I can see that now.
Thanks for your awesome insight!!!
NML – I read what you said about the nice guy, about how he was “sweet, shy(ish), agreeable, sort of cute”
Shy – that is fear, right? Sweet, cute – you want to cuddle and baby him like he was a puppy. Agreeable – Didn’t tell you where his boundaries are, letting you think there weren’t any boundaries or disagreement, or differing perspectives. That is: uncommunicative.
So when he invited you to mother him, you did. When you expected a partner he was still playing the puppy you thought was so adorable.
What I didn’t see was that he was cheerful, he was honest or caring, that he was honorable and disciplined, or that you respected his accomplishments, his values, his smile.
I suspect you knew from the outset he was a ‘treat’, a short-lived fun thing.
He might have been a ‘nice’ guy, but he was short on life skills. He was trying to attract a date – by *not* tripping anyone’s trigger that might make her decide to drop him. If he was serious, he should have wanted your respect.
I wish you taught life (your blog) in junior high school, high school and college…
Very smart, NML
Oh good grief, Natalie! Another phenomenal post that I feel you wrote for me, and I’m so glad other women are here too trying to make sense out of relationships with a Nice Guy.
There are many things you wrote I totally resonate with and a few I dont. I have done some inner healing since my EUM Mark. When I got involved with nice guy Bill, I did notice the lack of drama. But instead of running away from him for that reason, and yes, the lack of drama did feel boring, I stayed and really tried to examine what the lack of drama felt like to me. I did eventually get to a place of appreciating no drama, just comfort and familiarity. But his people pleasing qualities have driven me crazy to the point where I feel actually slightly repulsed by them. And I do feel somewhat manipulated by his sweetness and agreeability.
I’ve been confused about knowing what to do with him because I do not want to be Mark, my ex-EUM, and take advantage of him and use him. Bill is constantly wanting to do things for me and I take care to only accept his offers of niceness when it feels appropriate.
What I have noticed about his niceness is that he is actually the flip side of Mark. Bill will always want to do what I want to do, eat what I want to eat, cook for me what I want, see the movie I want to see, and the list goes on. If I push him and say, what do you want to do, he’ll say, whatever it is that makes me happy.
So to me, it feels he isn’t there.
And guess what? You know your recent post about why we talk too much? I definately did that with my EUM trying to persuade him I was right, worth a commitment, what what he did was hurtful etc. Well, I’m also doing it with this nice guy/people pleaser. I try to explain to him why it bothers me when he can’t make an “I” statement. Its as though he isn’t there, no opinions, he has lost himself in pleasing me. I wouldn’t be surprised to hear he does that with others too. I know people pleasers are fearful of rejection and I’ve ended up spending too many evenings discussing this with him- talking again. or like you said, being his mother(ick).
This was such a great example ofhow his sweetness or generosity feels manipulative. There I was last night recovering from a painful two day root canal. I had told him before that I deal with pain by wanting to be alone, take my tylenol with codeine and lie on the couch with my dog and watch something meaningless. Did he respect that? NO!! He kept calling. How am I? Can He bring me something? Bring me juice? (LIke I couldn’t get my own juice.) He calls last night to say he brought me flowers and wants to deliver them. I knew if he came in he’d want to sit on the couch and touch me. He does this thing where its like he pets me, I really don’t like it. And I definately didn’t want to deal with that post root canal last night. So he insisted on bringing the flowers to the door, and I said I wouldn’t open the door, but he left them there. Well, guess what? In my drugged state, I fell asleep, forgetting the flowers, only to open the door this morning and find them, frozen and dead…..And all that behavior is distateful to me, not sweet and considerate the way he means it.
And I do worry alot that I am behaving like a bitch, the way my ex EUM treated me, but at the same time. Being with this guy is me settling. Again, me not thinking I’m worth waiting for someone better to come along eventually. I just took him because he was so sweet, and giving and the opposite of the EUM. No one has focussed on pleasing me before and I didn’t realize how icky it could feel.
I am now realizing that I am not attracted to this nice guy. I hoped the physical attraction would grow if I liked him enough as a person, but neither is developing because I”m liking him less as a person. So there is no chemistry.
He isn’t interesting enough to me, we aren’t into the same stuff, I’m way way more outgoing.
There is a line between being with someone who is nice and wrong, and being with a nice guy who triggers our own emotional unavailability. Its really taking me time to see this. I am treating him meanly and kind of the way my EUM treated me and I know thats wrong. But I’m not doing it because I am allowing the parts of me that are EU define my behavior. I’m just not into him because he is not the one for me. Its taken me time to sort it out. Its so confusing. Does any of this make sense?? I welcome feedback from everyone.
And I am going to tell him, no more leading him on. Its so hard for me to hurt someone but I know, its better to tell the truth than lead him on any longer. I just had to be sure he wasn’t the right guy and I was in a bad place to see it.
This is so complicated for me.
Thank you Natalie and thank you, everyone here. The support is fabulous.
Wendy
I’m stuck between my EUM (who I can’t seem to break it off with) and my new nice guy, who reminds me of the past good relationships I have had. I don’t find him boring at all, but I do question why I let the EUM get away with soooo much, when I would never deal with that behavior from the nice guy.
I think I understand where you’re coming from and I’m sure you’re right in your analysis of pretty much everything. What concerns me is that we do endlessly seem to analyse what we do in relationships and I’m not sure that the reason for that is always good.
You pointed out that your younger Mr. Nice Guy was … well … nice – at the beginning, but it didn’t last. Isn’t it always the case that so many people are “looking” (aka searching desperately) for that special relationship and each time this or that prospectice candidate turns out to be less than perfect, we feel that it was a waste of time and we’re devastated. You could waste your whole life that way!
I always thought the idea was that you dated (i.e. went out to lunch, dinner, a bar, a movie) with anyone you met who seemed kind of interesting and, just maybe you became better friends after a date or two. If not you moved on, but if you did find some common pleasure in being together, then you continued dating and became even firmer friends, or perhaps lovers and so on and so forth. If at any time it seemed to be going stale or wrong, then one or both of you was either not interested enough to try hard enough, or you just weren’t suited enough for the developing relationship to stand the test of time.
If things DID (unexpectedly) stand that time test and you got even closer (both of you), then and only then, did you start thinking about “long term”.
That seems like a pretty good way to proceed to me, although you do sort have hope that your significant other isn’t just going along because he’s too lazy to look for another lay – and you do also have to be ruthless when you have that familiar gut feeling that things aren’t right. “I don’t want to do this any more” should be reason enough to move on, without having to find endless reasons why.
Hi JC,
I’m puzzled by what you wrote.You seem so clear in your first message, I love the way you said I don’t want to do this anymore is reason enough to move on without having to over analyze. (Not that I can do that….) But my question is why in the world who stay stuck with an EUM if you have a good relationship with a non-boring nice guy??
CJ, I think there is another way. Start with people of good character, which is different than people of good standing, community leaders, etc. People that are honest first, that are disciplined and respect themselves and others are good people to associate with. If one of the people of good character seems interesting, then pursuing a mate may or may not work, but you avoid most of the manipulations and deceptions of those that are only dating perpetually, as a lifestyle. Perpetual daters will never ‘settle down’ and be a good mate – even if you get the date moved as far as cohabiting.
Deliberately choosing to associate with people of good character also keeps your mind focused on being respectful of yourself, of being honorable and responsible, of finding joy in life rather than bullying or making fun of others. Yes, you lose the drama and a good deal of the excitement (flirting with danger). Excitement and adventure should be reserved for vacations – not as a lifestyle and the basis for a relationship.
Most of what makes a person suitable for ‘long term’ is character issues. And it is easier to rule out the red-flagged problems *before* you start checking out the chemistry.
Wendy Levy –
I am not sure what you call a ‘nice guy’ is the same as what I would call ‘suitable’. From what you describe there is a signal lack of respect going.
My first thought was that you should let him know that his attentions annoy you. You are unsure of your own needs, at present, and his attempts to meet your needs are troubling.
And then you went on. He is putting his needs first, and disregarding your welfare. The acts of ‘kindness’ he keeps attempting *should* be meeting your needs. It isn’t respectful, or good for anyone, to fulfill whims and wishes – needs for comfort, for understanding, yes. Flowers when you have asked to be alone is rude and disrespectful. He seems to be trying to be ‘the complete boyfriend’ but he doesn’t understand that means he has to know his woman first.
As for not wanting to hurt someone, telling him that you no longer wish to associate with him socially or intimately can well be respectful, responsible, and honorable. As long as you mean it.
It is possible that the two of you can work out what respect for yourselves and others means in your relationship. Stranger things have happened. But you will want to understand your own needs, ask for what you need, understand what your partner needs, and care enough to make sure that all of this comes together, happily.
Luck!
I think part of the problem people are having is where do you meet people to date? The biggest pool of dating potential is the Internet and that may not be the best place to meet people. Personally I am very conflicted about this. I’ve tried both long distance and close to home dating and neither has been that satsifactory but we seem to be left with little choices. It’s suggested we can also meet people by joining a local group so you will have like interests but that is not a very realistic way to find a potential mate. Granted there may be a few people in the group that are datable but they may or may not be interested in you. Of course there is the bar scene, which I think is the worst place to meet people. Another place is through a church group. Well I ‘m not particularly religious so then we’re back to the Internet again.. It’s really a confusing dating world that we have to navigate in. I think this is the reason that so many women end up in EUM relationships because these men are very good communicators, charming, blow hot in the beginning and women just gravitate to them. I met my EUM just three weeks after I joined a dating site. We were together for two years. Now that I’m informed about EUM behavior and recognize the red flags, I’m having a much harder time finding somene that’s datable.
When you meet someone on a dating site you really have no idea what that person is like, if they’re honest, they could be married just looking for some fun, or as Brad says perpetual daters, or players, or any number of things. I think the older you are the harder it is to meet people, so that’s another stumbling block. Even if you do meet a person that you’re interested in that person may have five or ten other people writing to them. So you could be e-mailing back and forth thinking you’ve met someone that you have chemistry with and then they will disappear. This has happened to me and I’ve also done the disappearing. So I think it’s brutal out there.
One of the reasons I think I stayed so long with my EUM is that I didn’t want to have to face the dating world again which is almost as bad a being with an EUM..lol. NO seriously, it’s work to find someone because of all the dishonesty and because there are just too many choices. If you get five or six emails a day on a dating site…how do you decide who is the person that you’re going to concentrate on? What if they all seem to have decent qualities. Or conversly you could be put a lot of time and energy in emailing or phone calling with someone for several weeks or even a month or two and have it come to nothing. I spent several weeks emailing a man that seemed very interesting. When we finally met in person he was totally different, very shy and extremely boring, nothing like his emails There are many, many people on dating sites that don’t have a clue how to communicate and have problems with shyness. I am starting to get really sick of the dating scene.
There is a man that I’ve given my number to after knowing him for awhile. He called in the beginning a couple times and then basically disappeared. Several weeks later he called again. I did not answer the phone because I consider this to be flaky behavior. He hasn’t called me in a month and tonight I got another phone call from him which I didn’t answer. Has anyone had this problem?
It makes me want to run for the hills and become a nun.
Brad, excellent comments.
I dated Steve for a few months – yes, a nice guy, not an EUM, but the chemistry was not there at all, I don’t mean I was missing the drama, I just didn’t feel it for him.
Just because we meet the first nice guy after dating an assclown does not mean the is the ONE.
Why can’t the nice guy be the fourth one we meet that we click with. It may take some time to find the right person and that is O.K. In the meantime I will not string a nice guy along just because I am not sure about him, no, I will cut him loose so he can move one and find the right one for him.
I spent way too much time thinking about my EUM and I don’t want to continue this thinking stuff to death. When you meet somebody, time will tell if this will work, I believe that I learned enough to pick a good man, I have hope that I will one day have a good relationship. Don’t pick apart the nice guy – if there is no connection – let him go…
myalmostlover, I agree with you!! I did the online dating in 2005 for about 8 months – OMG – never, ever again. Yes, you will be talking to a guy and he may be talking to 5 other women at the same time – so, he will have to juggle all of us.
Ha, that is so funny to me. A dude juggling a few women and be good at it?
hell no, I am a single Mom and I juggle work, kids house and so on.
Funny, you say after 1 month he called you again? Yes, I know what you mean.
Well, he called – after evaluating all the women he can date – who would be more “crucial” to attend to right now.
Listen, I had one Dude tell me – after I ignored him for 6 weeks!! – I am not interested in you anymore and please don’t e-mail me again. How is that for screwed up??
WTH? I cut communication with that fool 6 weeks earlier, but he didn’t see it.
One dude I told him that I am not interested in him and he had the nerves to ask me if I would be interested in a casual ” relationship”
Huh?? Of course I would and I would pick YOU!!!!
Don’t feel bad about your Internet dating experiences, a fool is a fool, in person or the Internet.
No, I will NEVER do online dating again, but everybody should try it once.
Assclowns are EVERYWHERE, but it is easier for them to hide behind a PC and lure their victims in. AHHHH…
NML, if you can, can you post something about Internet dating again? I believe I have read that you are against it, but I can’t remember.
myalmostlover – finding a mate is a lot tougher than finding a date. Date and mate candidates won’t gather in the same places.
There are websites with a decent reputation – eHarmony.com is one. If you can find one that interests you, with a decent character – that isn’t lying through their teeth to get the most dates they can – you can make a pretty good shot at finding someone.
There are nice people in bars, there are players and people that really aren’t worth knowing. But very few people with a good character will spend much time in a bar. So finding someone in a bar is picking and choosing among those left, after you sort out the most honest, dependable, responsible, respectful …
I like to think that the best way to look is to go where people of good character go – school functions, community functions, church functions. Reading circles. Not everyone there is going to be suitable – but the odds are better. And you need to be meeting good women as well as men. The more you circulate socially, the better you are adjusted to being with people of good character, the better the chances you will meet, or be found by, a good mate prospect.
I like to think that there is a vast untapped resource – networking. Family and neighbor networking. Tell your aunts, your mother, married friends that you want to meet someone. Today many people think singles are that way by choice, and often resent match-making. Let the happily married women in your life know you want a responsible, dependable man. Or even just ask them what you should be looking for. Note: When they start with dreamy eyes and dashing looks, blow past that – they are daydreaming and not really serious, yet. Let them know you are interested in character, someone dependable, respectful, honorable.
Watch the people you encounter at work, when you shop, where you eat. Is there someone you encounter regularly that is honest, respectful? Exchange a few words. Next time offer your name. Later, if he asks, your number, or if he offers, take his number – then call him!
As for the guy with infrequent calls – he may have a life instead of regular free time. He may not know about, nor care about, the informal ‘rules’ of dating. He might figure unless you were his mate, he would only offer part of his free time. Thus, the infrequent calls. Blow him off if he is rude, disrespectful, abusive, deceitful. Don’t set arbitrary rules and boundaries about when he calls – it might be significant to you, but if it isn’t significant to him, you are misunderstanding the situation – assuming things ‘not in evidence’. Some people are time-challenged; chronically late, or just don’t care about time. If deliberate, it can be a sign of disrespect. Else it might just be that other things are more important to him. Timing disputes can be annoying if you let them. But get to know him before deciding if he is worth it.
He might not call much, but might be the one-in-a-million that puts his dirty underwear in the hamper. He might prefer giving you a back rub than play fantasy football .. ok, that would be far fetched, but still.
Internet dating is scary. Even Eharmony, the site which you would think would be better than the others- I went on Eharmony for 3 months awhile back, and there were EUs in abundance. I even saw a few of the same people on Eharmony on Match. They are just trying to be better pretenders on Eharmony. I think internet dating is custom made for EU’s unfortunately.
I scroll through the profiles sometimes on Match just for kicks, I swear 90-95% are EU’s. I can pick out now so many flags that they write in their profiles. Of course the “Seeking Soulmate” and “Looking for Love of my Life” are dead giveaways. But in the more reasonably titled profiles, seemingly innocent statements such as: “Looking for an independent woman”; talking alot about they are dedicated to their job, how much they like to do SO many different outdoor/sports activities; are indicators to me now.
P.S. “Social drinker, maybe one or two” is code for alcohol abuser in denial, based on my experience 🙂
It is really hard to meet someone though in day to day life, but I’m not sure I even want to date a guy who has done or is doing internet dating again. Even the 2 EU guys I have met outside of internet dating turned out to have dating profiles up that I didn’t find out about until later. Lets not even talk about mySpace and the paranoia that induces. I second Natalie writing something about internet dating again.
Brad, I like what you say about focusing on character. I disagree though with your take on the guy myalmostlover was talking about, who flaked out on calling, When someone exhibits that kind of inconsistent phone behavior, even when just getting to know someone in the beginning, I think it is a major sign that they are ambivalent about pursuing a relationship.
Astelle….I swear Internet dating is just the pitts. I have been on one site since my EUM and I started the breaking up getting back together cycle. I’ve had so many responses but so few quality men. I did blow a few off in the beginning that had real potential because I would hook back up with my EUM and forget about the dating site. Then we would break up again and I would be back on there. Truth be told it was just to fill the empty hole in my heart that was left by the EUM. And in all honesty that hole is still there and I probably should just get out of the dating game for awhile. The thing is I spent so much time with the EUM that I miss his companionship. He’s one of those emotionally unavailable men that would never leave you. He’s a player though and I could never have him all to myself , so I had to cut him loose, AGAIN. It will be 4 weeks tomorrow and just like clock work he is showing up. This time though I’m determined for it to be over. I CANNOT take another break up. It’s taken me four long weeks to get to this point and I’m not anywhere near healed.
So yes Internet dating sucks. If one more guy tells me I’m pretty or hot or whatever I’m going to scream. Just quit with the platitudes and show me something. Show me your depth, your mind, your intellect , your sense of humor…something!!
Cairn……I went on eharmony and deleted my profile the same day. That weird format of graduated dating or whatever it’s called…I had no patience for that. It’s like game playing or something. I also agree on that guy calling infrequently. It’s like he must be thinking…wait I just remembered this chick I talked to a month ago…my last two week relationships didn’t work out…so I’ll give her a call and see if she’s up for a good time. No thanks Mr. EUM unpredictable.
Brad……I’m not a very social person in that respect and my family connections are not that large. My best friend lives back East and she’s horrible at matchmaking….so I am really just left with the Internet unless the next guy selling magazines that comes to my house is a hottie….lol.
@CJ I thought I would respond to your comment now as I was a bit puzzled by it. I’m not in any way, shape, or form suggesting that people as a natural habit should analyse their dating. This site is about people who struggle with particular dating and relationship issues with a huge percentage of the readership struggling with emotional unavailability. I did exactly as you suggested which was date around, have a lot of fun, try out different things and all of this whilst I had a host of unaddressed issues about myself and how I approach and perceived relationships. I can’t turn back the clock but what I do know is that if I hadnt spent so much time chalking up my experiences to ‘dating’ ‘bad luck’ experience’ ‘fun’ ‘blips’ and more, things could have been very different. I am writing about a specific issue in this post – it’s not about dating. It’s about women leaving poor relationships with Mr Unavailable and not understanding why choosing an opposite, normally a ‘nice guy’ doesn’t work out. I’m glad that how you do things is working for you it’s just that I’m writing this article for the people who *do* have problems.
Hi Natalie,
Just wanted to say, again, for the zillionth time, how grateful I am to you. Your posts are more than perfect and you have helped me in more ways than I can express with words. I just came home from trying to explain to my Mr. Nice Guy why his niceness pushes me away. Not sure how good a job I did, but at least I can say, I was honest. And the entire conversation was inspired by you. I just felt you sitting on my shoulder. Thank you. Wendy
@Wendy It has been my absolute pleasure to help and get to know you. I know what you have been through over these past few months and you know what? Sometimes we have to go through these experiences to really see why we’re not ready for a relationship or may need to take some time out. Only you were going to be able to see things as they really were in your own time and I know how you have struggled with the conflicts created by being involved with this guy. The key thing to remember here is that what you feel about this guy is not about Mark; it’s about you and this guy. Not wanting him doesn’t mean you want Mark or that you don’t want one day to be in a healthy relationship. It just means that right now, your gut is telling you that this doesn’t feel right, that you’re not happy, and that it’s not working. This is one of those situations that a man will struggle to comprehend because he doesn’t perceive his actions in the way that you do. They can sometimes be very simplistic where we can be analytical and so we see what’s behind the behaviour – he just sees that he is nice and he is giving and can’t see what the problem is. I hope that whatever happens now, you can take this experience and move forward. Big hugs x
Ummm I not only actively pursued and dated an opposite, I married him…all quite intentionally. My first husband had been such an assclown that I honestly, consciously searched for someone completely opposite of him. I had no idea at the time, bear in mind we’re talking 20 years ago, that the problem was with me. When the opposite thing didn’t work out, I went back to my comfortable assclown, recycled boyfriend/husband and stuck with it for years! It took that long to realize that the problem was with me. It would have been nice to figure it out sooner but, as you’ve said before, you can’t go back and rewind. I just have to focus on me now and work for the future. At least I know that it will be about a million times better than the past!
@Carm – you said “When someone exhibits that kind of inconsistent phone behavior”. My thought was that a playa, someone wrapped up in dating as a lifestyle, that would be true. Someone pursuing rotating bed partners, someone dating for recreation as a lifestyle would know the rules, would keep any ‘juggling’ he might be doing hidden – make you believe that dating you is the only thing driving his universe. Someone like that goofing up expected phone calling behavior would be a weirdo, would be wandering back through his list of numbers when he had a free evening, would be too ignorant to hide his wandering attention.
But. Someone that isn’t dating at all, really, wouldn’t know that. And, really, for a long term relationship, you *don’t* want someone highly experienced at meeting fresh bed partners. Using dating ‘rules’ to avoid the inept will work against you, if you start making contact with someone that sees meeting someone important in their life as a casual acquaintance that might develop. Now, I know this kind of attitude won’t be attractive to an avid, experienced dater. And, as I said, if this guy is a dater, if you met somewhere they served alcohol, then you are right – this is a dude with ‘trouble’ written in big letters all over.
@myalmostlover – “not a very social person”. And that has to come first. Mating, taking two people and making a family, is a social convention. Try to exist as a couple isolated from neighbors and community, and you have no foundation, no sustaining influences – no context.
You have to like and love yourself before you can love another – else you won’t respect the other for being with you. Meeting and enjoying friends is partly practice for getting along with others, partly keeping role models that you respect and admire, and wish to emulate, about you. And partly for the emotional bonds that enrich the soul.
When you see yourself participating in a community – perhaps, at first, just the people working at places you shop, neighbors you pass regularly, people at work – your world view expands. By simply offering a greeting (not even expecting a response) you begin to enrich the lives about you. This is good experience for keeping a relationship alive, but is also a reward for you and for your community. OK, I am rambling.
You want to be a part of a community, a social setting, and have friends. Once established, you will feel part of something bigger. You will evaluate potential partners on the basis of making you happy – and by how they interact in your community. If you have surrounded yourself with honorable, honest, disciplined people, flaws in character will be *much* easier to spot, and will be much more important to you – easier to avoid. Not to mention, a considerate and concerned friend will be likely to offer feedback and advice – Yeah, yeah,, that may help or may not, but can get you thinking more clearly.
The bond you form with a mate should be the most important bond in your life, until you have children, and then it should be the foundation for your bonds to any children. But we can’t make that ‘mate’ bond in a vacuum. We really need the friends and community to bring it all together.
One of the fears of the EUM is that you will escape his control, or cheat (since he knows so *very* much about cheating, he assumes everyone else, given the chance). He will isolate you – keep you from friends and family and anything that distracts you or anyone that might criticize him. Which tells you right off, that to avoid attracting EUM attention, you need the social contacts, you need the friends, and you need your family.
My thinking is that a guy should have met, and you should have gotten encouragement, from both your parents or five (5) trusted friends, before you get intimate. Which means you need the five friends or close family, first.
Look at it this way – meeting friends isn’t that much more difficult than meeting someone for a long term relationship. And you will likely meet the right guy in similar circumstances.
Brad…….It’s not that I don’t have a social network, I was in a long marriage which ended four years ago. I have children, am a professional and very outgoing, I have no problem engaging with people. Then I met Mr. EUM and everything seemed to change, I started to wrap my world around him. That was my first mistake. You’re right they do like to isolate you socially and little by little it was him that I was concentrating on . He was the first person that I’ve loved like this since my marriage, maybe even more then my ex-husband. So that’s what is really keeping me where I’m at. I almost feel like he put a voodoo love curse on me…lol. We had so much fun, shared so much but in the end, like all EUM”s, he couldn’t give me what I wanted.
Today is week four of NC with my EUM and I have been struggling with it, we’ve done NC several times. This is approaching the longest I’ve ever gone. He’s starting to blow hot again, after weeks of silence. I won’t engage with him, I can’t go through another break up. It’s just so futile. I try to “drown my sorrow” by chatting with a few men on dating sites and have gone out on a few dates, in between breakups with the EUM.. I think I’m probably emotionally unavailable now.
My ex EUM is like a scab that won’t heal. I hope two months from now I can say I’m truly over this person. I still stand by everything I said about Internet dating, it can be brutal but if I was in a better place emotionally I probably would be able to see things clearer.
Dear Astelle and Natalie,
YOu’ve helped me so much!! I have been picking my relationship with Nice Guy apart way too much. You are both so right. If my gut feels he isn’t right for me, or that perhaps he really isn’t all that nice, or that he is nice, but has his own mega-issues, than its ok to not be in the relationship.
I did come into the relationship with this one because he was, well, just there, and because he was so nice and so opposite of my EUM. In my simplistic way of looking at things, that made him relationship material.
I really finally feel strong enough inside of myself to finally listen to my gut and you have helped me learn how to listen to myself.
Since somewhere inside of me I still have been sending myself negative messages regarding my not being worthy of love, I’ve ended up clinging to this guy way too long. Another reason I’ve hung onto him is fear- if I think I’m unworthy and unlovable, then only an EUM will find me, or someone with problems like this nice guy who actually is Mr. Loser/Nice Guy all wrapped up in one. I have been settling and it has to do with my self image again,
I am going to be brave, and finally tell myself that being alone is better than being with an EUM or a nice guy/loser with huge self esteem issues himself.
I am worthy of a great guy and all I really need to know is that one day, I’ll meet him. And that day doesn’t have to be now. And I don’t have to fearful, jump at the first man who comes along out of desperation.
Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
myalmostlover – While you are counting the days of NC, how are you going about recovering your social contacts, undoing the isolation you are trying to escape? Letting an isolated way of life continue can’t help you, your kids, or your chances of finding a good man and good relationship.
If opinions are like .. ahem, noses, everyone has one, then brainstorming “What should I do?” and “What can I do tonight” *has* to go better with several friends, than sitting at the kitchen table after the kids are asleep (or while vacuuming or dusting).
And it is tough. We make many decisions each day, choosing to do this, never thinking of doing that, because we have gotten used to a particular bias or someone else’s preference. Finding those hidden drivers, understanding whether you want to keep that reason or to try something different, is some of the most intense soul searching we do. Change is measured in pain, so there really are no easy choices.
Luck!
An absolutely well thought out, insightful, clear and honest assessment about self as well as sound advice!
Love it!
I have a question that I wrote about on today’s post but I think it more appropriately goes here. Whether its the Nice Guy or Mr. Opposite, what role does feeling chemistry with someone play in a good healthy relationship?
In looking for Mr. Opposite of the EUM, my thinking was that if I felt chemistry, or if he was “my type” he was Mr. Bad. Mr. EUM. That if I did not feel chemistry, if he was not my “type” hence, Mr. Opposite, maybe there is promise, true potential for healthy relationship. But when you add in today’s posts about its not about we have interests in common, its who he is, I end up with wondering….. Who Am I Looking For?
I feel no chemistry, no real attraction with my people pleaser guy and it has not developed yet over these four months. Nor do we have interests in common. He is a nice guy and likes to nurture me and pamper me and the only interest in common is, well, me. The ex-EUM I shared many interests with but he was an assclown.
Is it reasonable to believe that if I continue to just live my life on my own, I might someday bump into a man who is emotionally available, and someone I have chemistry with, and some shared interests so we have something to build a relationship on?
I know in today’s post, Natalie you wrote that it doesn’t matter if there are shared interests if the two of us don’t both have both feet in…..
My question is, both feet in what? What makes a good relationship? Shouldn’t there be some shared interests, shared passions, some spark, some chemistry???? I’m so confused….
Please someone, enlighten me!!
Wendy
Chemistry isn’t really necessary to keep mates together. But chemistry makes the relationship a lot stronger, a lot closer, a lot richer.
You ask about ‘both feet’. I think that refers to whether you want a date for the rest of your life, or a family. A family might or might not include children, depending. But a family builds and lives in a home, not just a house or apartment or room. ‘Both feet’ means you each what the other to help build that home that will be yours for the rest of your lives. This is very different from, ‘OK, I wasn’t planning on going somewhere today, and you are comfortable, so let’s just keep on being together while it is fun.”
No, do *not* wait to bump into someone with shared interests or that you notice a spark. Network. Choose to spend time with people, lots of people. Choose to get to know people with good character, good emotional bond health with friends and family. Share activities with married people. Avoid permanent and professional daters. Mention to a few respected, married women you want to settle down.
Envision the man of your dreams. Who is he, who are his friends, what is he doing, what is your home like? Now consider where a man like that might be today. Unless you dream of a bartender, he likely won’t be hanging around where alcohol is served. Or even dating.
The first thing you want to establish is character. Do this by ‘reading’ your network. Keep your antennae up for indications someone is interested in you – friends report he is asking, you notice he turns up regularly.
Forget about all the dating rules – phone for this, phone within ‘X’ hours, etc. Keep your goal in mind – that you want someone to build a life together with. Accept disagreements, as long as you respect his perspective, and respect him. Expect the ‘spark’ to come and go. You *don’t* want someone highly skilled – suave – at getting women into bed. You do want someone good with animals and kids – that is, they are better for knowing him.
Allow for a need to learn about relationships and getting along together and handling needs and emotions. Be gentle – courtesy has a way of winning it’s own reward.
Until you and he are ready to settle down, don’t get involved in social functions or dates with less than four people involved. Six or eight people at a dinner party, or bowling, or going to a wine tasting or community theater is better. Spend time with married people (avoid flirting with anyone that you aren’t contemplating for a partner).
Build a social life. A network of friends will be the best way to ‘uncover’ a good prospect, then you can explore if there is any chemistry present.
Hi Brad,
Thanks for your post here, but unfortunately it does not speak to my situation. I’ve been married 26 yrs and divorced. He was EUM with a ton of issues, but had 4 fabulous boys, now mostly grown. The most recent EUM came after the divorce and lasted two years. I really threw myself into that r/s and it appeared to me that he was “perfect” because we had so many interests in common. It was exactly what Natalie wrote on her most recent posts regarding how interests in common add up to nothing if there is no foundation for a real healthy relationship.
I’m just wondering out loud here if a relationship can truly work when I’m feeling no chemistry. If you’ve been following any of my messages, I’m with Mr. People pleaser and find him boring. And not because there is no drama. I don’t want drama. But we have no shared interests other than me, and thats boring me to pieces. He is kind, considerate and helpful.he would accompany me to anywhee and do anything I want to go to, like movies, readings, theatre, art openings, but not because he is into those things. I’m into those things. he’d just do anything for and with me. But for me, thats not “it”, not enough. He is a very simple quiet person and unlike myself, doesn’t read, watch movies, theatre, any of that stuff. Its just that I cannot “find” him. Do you know what I mean? I’m a very intense, strong minded person and I can’t help but find very quiet people dull. Nice, but dull. So I’m not feeling chemistry. I’m not drawn to him the way I think I should be.
Does that make sense?
Wendy, yes it makes sense to me, don’t waste anymore time with him!!
Looks like we are about the same age and I don’t want to waste any time on Mr.Wrong anymore.
thank you Astelle, I needed that support. Feels good to be heard. Wendy
Wendy Levy, You talk about chemistry, and common interests. But reading your comments I don’t see a lot of respect for you, nor him for himself. His puppy-dog dependence on you for guidance sounds more like co-dependant than mate behavior. His clingy ways frustrate you at the same time you beat yourself up for deliberately picking a guy that is content.
How much effort have you put into figuring out this guy’s real needs, and meeting them? What if part of his quietness, his letting you take the lead, is that this is how he is trying to get along with you? Have you deliberately given him real encouragement when he does something you respect?
I don’t think there is anyone or anything that is truly boring. Boredom is our reaction to something – and often something we aren’t paying enough attention to – a friend, a task, a job, a drive in the afternoon.
Blessed be!
Hi Brad, Thanks for your thoughts. What if part of his quietness is how he is trying to get along with me? I am very forthright with my opinions and requests regarding relationships. I give him enormous enormous encouragement when he does something I respect. I just don’t want to be with someone whose response to dealing with me is to agree with me and be quiet. I need someone who is there, who has substance.
As far as how much effort I’ve put into figuring his needs out and meeting them?
I am so over that, sorry. If a man can’t articulate his needs and ask for what he needs, and share how I could meet those needs if I am not meeting them, he is not the guy for me. I am done doing the work for two.
I have done the work for two for years with me EUM and its never happening again. At my age, if he can’t speak up and express his needs, so we can have a mature conversation with give and take, listening etc. then he desperately needs to find someone else.
Seriously.
Wendy