Over parts one, two, and three of this series, I’ve explained how compatibility, type, and common interests are three things that can be pretty dangerous when you have been in a number of poor relationships because aside from you not looking at the bigger picture and looking at these things in context, you may have some unhealthy or misguided ideas that are driving your choices. Today, it’s finally time to talk about ‘type’.
I’m going to be blunt – If you’re someone who claims to have a ‘type’, talks about it and rests her proverbial sword on it, and has found herself courting misery, ambiguity and all of the other negative stuff and hasn’t been able to have successful relationships with her ‘type’, he’s not your ‘type’!
He’s your illusion, he’s your nightmare, he’s your fears, he’s your pain in the ass, but he most certainly is not your type.
Your type should be able to make you feel good for longer than ‘moments’ or fleeting highs.
Your type shouldn’t come with drama and excess baggage. Your type should be someone who can consistently make you feel good throughout the relationship and allow you to be yourself.
Having a ‘type’ is about justifying why you are not open to making a different choice.
If you imagine someone sitting you down and asking you what type of man will run you ragged, leave you in self-doubt, give you fleeting highs with many lows, and cater to your negative beliefs about yourself and run down your self-esteem, it’s your type. Particularly for the women who find themselves with men who treat them badly, you could remove the window dressing from your aspirations and just say ‘My type is *ssholes!’
When you are habitually involved with Mr Unavailables and assclowns, you will discover that you are the type of person that has made excuses and allowances for poor behaviour and has struggled or even outright refused to opt out, because it’s been preferential to dine on the illusion and hope that he would change.
‘Type’ is about choosing a particular type of person because you think that it’s what is most attractive to you and what will make you happy.
However, type is about following a pattern, and if you have discovered that you have a penchant for Mr Unavailables and assclowns, you have unhealthy relationship patterns, and have been choosing unhealthy men because you have an unhealthy or toxic type.
For a start, most of us don’t even know who the hell we are anymore as we’ve lost ourselves in a series of Mr Unavailables and assclowns. You can’t possibly know what makes you happy, because trust me, if you did, the first thing you have to ask yourself is:
If I know what makes me happy, why am I continuously opting for the unhappy route in the hope that one day it will make me happy?
Why not just cut straight to the chase and choose a man that is reflective of the values that you chase at end of the tunnel, instead of squeezing a poor candidate through the round hole when he’s actually ‘square’?
Even scarier, many of us mistake the feeling of the familiarity of something or some catering to our fears as passion, excitement, and ‘love’, when in actual fact it’s fear.
Remember, pain is not love, it’s just pain.
Type has you blinded because type it’s never really about aspiring to be with someone who with the aesthetic and sexual appeal, also has strong values, and loves, respects, trusts, and cares about you.
Type is very much tied up in the unimportant. It’s about making the nice-to-have-but-unnecessary -things a priority and forgetting about the important things that will actually determine the success of the relationship.
Because you are chasing a feeling, as discussed in part two, your ‘type’ is reflective of the types of things that you believe will generate this ‘feeling’.
Your type and your relationships are often tied into illusions, so you’ve been projecting your ‘type’ onto this feeling and not sanity checking whether your ‘feelings’ and your ‘type’ are compatible.
You want to feel good in a good relationship but your beliefs about yourself, love, and relationships mean that you have a type that caters to the beliefs, that’s actually incompatible with the feeling.
Your type allows you to create excuses to keep fishing from the same pool, but your pool that you’re drawing from is making you unhappy.
Choosing same man, different package just does not work.
You may be trying to reconnect with traits and behaviours of someone that you either last recall feeling vaguely good with or who you would like to right the wrongs of the past with. Your ‘type’ may represent the one that got away, your father, your first boyfriend who let you down, the guy that broke your heart, but ‘type’ can often be about proving something to yourself.
Type is about nurturing your pattern and keeping it alive.
Some women have been chasing the love and attention of their father who was tall, dark, handsome, with a desire to have a music/acting/art career that never did quite take off, ever since they were a child, and their daddy’s just been replaced by boyfriends that fit the mould.
At the end of the day, type is only as good as the men you end up with.
If your type yields the happy, solid relationship you want, yay for you, but if your type means that you welcome the waifs and strays of the dating pool that rely on you having little or no boundaries, you have a toxic type that’s going to hinder your prospects, play havoc with your self-esteem, and stop you from getting the relationship you profess to want.
Much like when I talked about the compatibility issue, there’s no point in going on about your type if it doesn’t bring you success because all you’re doing is making yourself comfortable with b*llshit and men who are poor prospects for a relationship.
Your ‘type’ is an illusion because whilst in your mind it makes you happy, in reality, it does the opposite.
You spend your time trying to get the illusion and the reality to marry up so that you can justify your investment and avoid looking more closely at your choices because you are afraid of change and what that will mean to you.
Type is about catering to the self-fulfilling prophecy where we say we want to be happy and in a relationship, but we end up sabotaging our own efforts by choosing men that offer the least likely possibility of delivering on our desires.
We then get to be right and say what chumps they are (and they often are) but it’s more comfortable for us to keep trying our hand with the familiarity of our type than it is to branch out into unknown territory.
Type is often superficial and I’m not saying that your guy shouldn’t have aesthetic appeal or share some of your interests but it’s unrealistic to keep chasing a figment of your imagination or to keep chasing just the superficial and paying no heed to whether the core values stack up to yield a decent man who can give you a decent relationship.
A reader said to me recently, ‘Of course I want to be happy and fall in love but I just don’t find guys who aren’t my type attractive. I like guys who like outdoor pursuits, you know, adventure stuff, healthy, likes walking and mountaineering’
The woman is so fricking miserable it’s scary! There she is traipsing up and down mountains with him and he hardly talks to her. He’s adventurous alright – he likes the adventure of flirting with other women on trips and shagging around behind her back. He’s healthy, works out, but is rather vain and takes pot shots at her about her own appearance and weight. I mean jeez, couldn’t she forgo focusing on these shared interests and maybe focusing on someone who makes her feel good, even if he’s waiting for her at the bottom of the mountain to take her home instead of walking on it with her?
She’s not looking at the bigger picture.
You don’t need a mirror image of your fantasy because much like when people discover that living out their sexual fantasy isn’t all that it’s cracked up to be, it may be time for you to start getting real in the real world.
Wouldn’t it be better for your type to be focused around the type of relationship that you want and feeling good, positive, and being treated well as opposed to being focused on the superficial qualities that often make up ‘type’ and yield men that you end up being incompatible with?
Because remember, compatibility, type, and ‘common interests’ go hand in hand together.
The very men you profess to be your ‘type’ are actually incompatible with you because you cannot forge a relationship with them, and when you do, it’s on their terms, which ends up making you frustrated and miserable because you have to let go of your own core values, have little or no boundaries, and try to become someone you’re not in attempt to make the relationship successful, forgetting yourself along the way, and still ending up with a relationship that doesn’t work.
You assume because you share interests (or take on his interests) that these are reflective of the type of man these interests will yield, and that man is your ‘type’ but you’ll learn in part 5 that interests only mean something in the overall context of the relationship.
Your type, much like your ideas about compatibility that are incompatible with your happiness, is holding you back.
It’s not about finding a perfect man; it’s about finding someone who as a base, is wholeheartedly committed to you. When someone is committed to you and protecting your relationship, no matter what and who they have been before, they’re now putting both feet in to do what works for you both. Where adapting is needed they do it – not try to bully you (up front or passive aggressively) into having no boundaries so they can continue on with their poor behaviour.
It’s time to come down to earth and evaluate your type and if it’s incompatible with making you and your relationships successful, you have got to address why you are seeking these types.
You will discover that some of these men are like self-protection.
You know what you’re going to get with this ‘type’ even though you also hope that he’ll buck the trend and prove you wrong and be different…even though if he was different, you might not be interested in him….
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Is your type based on your mother or father?
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Does your type detract from you and reduce your self-esteem?
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Does your type remind you that you’re not ‘good enough’?
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Does your type bring out that competitive streak in you that makes you want to fight to prove yourself worthy and ride that donkey till it collapses?
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Is your type dangerous? If you’re seeking danger it’s not exactly compatible with a stable, committed relationship.
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Is your type lacking in character? If so, ask yourself why you are so attracted to men that are lacking in integrity and allergic to the truth?
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Is your type dark, moody, and uncommunicative? It’s not exactly compatible with someone who thrives on being communicated with and is looking for validation.
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Is your type wild and irresponsible? Why do you think he’s going to be responsible with you?
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What is your type and what does that type represent to you?
If you examine your type, you might just start to understand why your relationships are floundering and what you need to heal within you.
More to come in part 5
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“Your ‘type’ may represent the one that got away, your father, your first boyfriend who let you down, the guy that broke your heart, but ‘type’ can often be about proving something to yourself. Type is about nurturing your pattern and keeping it alive.†– yes, NML, I am still trying to chase and win my father’s approval. I can even recognize the feelings that I got/get during the “lows†with my ex as *exactly* the same as the way I felt as I cried myself to sleep as a little girl because my dad wasn’t happy with me that day. And then the “fleeting highs†I got with my dad when I did something to please him, like getting good marks in school. And also the first boyfriend that I wanted to marry but now I realize was probably EU – he made me feel the same way too. I am in my 40’s – why do I still need to replay this situation??? Ugh!!!
“Type is about catering to the self-fulfilling prophecy where we say we want to be happy and in a relationship, but we end up sabotaging our own efforts by choosing men that offer the least likely possibility of delivering on our desires.†– oh my, I am certainly guilty of this since I chose a MM for 14 months, and I’m still trying to get over him. Not only is he a MM, but he has many of the characteristics of an EUM besides that.
“you cannot forge a relationship with them, and when you do, it’s on their terms, which ends up making you frustrated and miserable because you have to let go of your own core values, have little or no boundaries, and try to become someone you’re not in attempt to make the relationship successful, forgetting yourself along the way, and still ending up with a relationship that doesn’t work.†True, true, true!!! I don’t value lying, I don’t value cheating, I don’t value deceit, but I sunk to his level and engaged in these things to be with him, because I felt we had a “special connectionâ€. I am so disgusted with myself.
“Does your type (read – ex) detract from you and reduce your self-esteem?†YES
“Is your type (ex) lacking in character?†YES
“Is your type (ex) dark, moody, and uncommunicative?†YES
*He is TOXIC*
OK, so I got wise enough to break up with him about 4 weeks ago (partially thanks to this site), and NC was going along nicely. That is, until I had to send him a work-related email today, and in it I did ask how his summer was going (stupid thing to ask but I was just trying to be *cordial* since I have to see him in a couple of weeks). He just told me how busy he was, never asked how I was or how my summer was, and responded very directly to the work-related stuff, not even thanking me for something I helped him with in the email. Which is all fine, and not out of character for him, but why do I feel so depressed and empty after receiving his reply??? How can I heal to the point that his “coldness†doesn’t affect me so much, and give me that horrible lump in my throat that I thought was going away during the NC while I *have* been focusing on me and not him?
Can anyone else relate to this?
Well, you’ve nailed it again NML! Thanks.
‘You will discover that some of these men are like self protection.’
This is SO true, I’ve spent my life emotionally connected to two types of men. One type ‘is wholeheartedly committed to you. When someone is committed to you and protecting your relationship…’ in my skewed world this was a true friend and could never ever become anything more.
The second type was the true AC, these I would fall in love with for all the reasons you’ve given, mainly the familiar pattern, the unfinished business with my father, the need to protect myself from exposure to a real relationship which might actually have a chance of working.
The problem for me has always been that the sexual attraction to the second type has been overwhelmingly powerful whereas there has been almost nothing for the first type. Not that my male friends are hideous, just that there is nothing there for me.
I guess this is part of the journey, to see beyond the attractive packaging that surrounds our ‘type’ when we first meet them so that we don’t spend ages unwrapping the package to discover a stone.
Thanks NML. Great information, and great to read right now as always! It makes so much sense and gives me hope for the future 🙂
I’m kind of wondering if some of this stuff, or a lot of it, isn’t biological. I’ve read a little about relationships and mating, and I seem to remember reading that women are drawn to the more alpha males for mating purposes and the more feminine (relationship type males), whom they will actually cheat-on (with alpha males) for their relationships/caretaking of youth/support.
I’ve also read that while men pursue multiple women in the chance that (at least) one will submit, women tend to have multiple pursuers and they (have the luxury as the “pursued” to) CHOOSE ONE male to focus on, and allow “access” as it were. Blasted biology anyway 😉 Not necessarily geared toward happiness and love, but survival of the species!
Just some thoughts.
Hope everyone is doing great! Luvs.
@ meant to be happy
I so understand the let down feeling when you don’t get the response you would really like. I spent years being either high or low depending on whether or not the responses I got from the AC were what I needed at the time.
Even now, I can still be disappointed if I don’t get the sort of response I want from an e mail, a text whatever, from anyone, but have realised that this is largely because I am reaching out for a connection and not getting it. It’s not only the AC, it could be anyone. There’s been some research into the whole texting/IM/email thing which shows that it is very easy to be affected by the tone/speed of a response,it’s all to do with seeking validation.
So you could look at this two ways, one that you are doing what anyone else does and being disappointed that the reply was impersonal, or that deep down you would like some proof that he is still interested – I know I am still guilty of this too.
You’ve done so well, 4 weeks NC apart from this, you will continue to get stronger for sure. Good luck.
“Some women have been chasing the love and attention of their father who was short, funny, handsome, with a desire to have a music/acting/art career that never did quite take off, ever since they were a child, and their daddy’s just been replaced by boyfriends that fit the mould.”
I’ve changed to fit 🙂
My brother is a total asshole as I’ve said before. Frustrated musician. My dad was a frustrated artist. My first LTR was a frustrated artist. The 10 year relationship was with someone who was a frustrated musician who then followed his dream (for which he needed me there as financial support) to design video games: he is frustated in that. The ex wishes he was a musician …
Next time I want a man who loves to grow vegetables!
@sadthing
Thank you so much for your response – you have helped me to feel more “normal”.
You said “I am reaching out for a connection and not getting it ” – yes, perhaps that was what I was doing too, subconsciously, when I asked him about his summer. and “deep down you would like some proof that he is still interested – I know I am still guilty of this too.” – yes, maybe that too. It’s easier to see these things when you have pointed them out by someone else- I guess I need to get to the point that I can figure these things out myself.
So, thanks again – I really appreciate the “validation”, even though, really, I suppose I should be validating myself, shouldn’t I?
and to add to your suggestions, part of me also wishes that he was hurting as much as I am, that he misses me for who I am, and that it wasn’t so easy for him to just get on with his life as it seems it was. Wishful thinking I suppose.
@mtbh
“and to add to your suggestions, part of me also wishes that he was hurting as much as I am, that he misses me for who I am, and that it wasn’t so easy for him to just get on with his life as it seems it was.”
Oh yessss. Tough stuff. I’m with you both.
@Meant to be Happy, @Sadthing — “deep down you would like some proof that he is still interested – I know I am still guilty of this too.â€
Even if he showed up at your doorstep and left you no doubt that he is still interested, the real question becomes, are YOU still interested in the “real him” or your “fantasy version of him.” I say this because it’s doubtful that he has changed. There’s a reason why we’re all on this web site. It’s because we were involved in relationships that left us reeling with strong emotions and confusion. While we’re here trying to heal, engage in self discovery, learn to set appropriate boundaries, and be able to embrace healthy relationships, it’s doubtful that our ex-counterparts are engaged in the same process. If he showed up at your doorstep today, got down on his knees, professed his wholehearted love for you, and begged you to come back, he’s likely still the same ole EUM or AC who will take you on the same ole rollercoaster relationship ride. Are you sure that’s a ride you still want to join him on?
@Serena
“If he showed up at your doorstep today, got down on his knees, professed his wholehearted love for you, and begged you to come back, he’s likely still the same ole EUM or AC who will take you on the same ole rollercoaster relationship ride. Are you sure that’s a ride you still want to join him on?”
Serena you are so right. If my xeum did this, it wouldn’t really be that I didn’t want him back…right now…it would be that I just would not trust him. Towards the end of our relationship ride, I just could not trust him at all and so was quite stand-offish with him – which I see now was just how he wanted me. A lot of friends were questioning me, telling me I needed to be more open to him, more expressive of my feelings – but it had been 2 years and we still weren’t in a relationship! (What a FOOL I was.) Of course I let their comments get to me…and doubted myself, and wondered (still do nearly sometimes), in true fbg style, if it was something I did or was doing to push HIM away. But if I look back, really look at things I know it was him. And as…I think it was Brad K, or maybe NML said, if you engage enough with the EU, you must become EU yourself in order to be in any kind of relationship with them. I couldn’t hardly talk about my feelings without him lumping me into the “psycho female” category, who just want a “relationship” – as if it was something sticky and disgusting.
When I think about it now…really, how CAN I be compatible and happy and functioning with someone I simply don’t trust and never will – someone who hurts me. NO. Thanks for reminding me. I need reminders everyday.
Love to all yas! Thanks for the support. I only hope I can give some back too.
@ Serena – your recent experience has made you way stronger, did you feel it yourself? It truly shows!
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! I’m sooooooooooo addicted to this site!!! This is the first place I click on lately (other than paltalk & utube). Why am I always addicted to something – online men, coffee, chapstick, Levi’s Jeans, cherry flavored halls, and the list goes on and on and on – and now this site!!! (Is there article on online men addiction? lol)
I’ve never actually been in “bad” relationship. I don’t belong here. But I luv it here!! It’s cozyyyyyyyyy here (can’t get rid of me!!! lol;). All the women here are SO WISE & SO STRONG!!! — You’ve been put through so much yet still standing tall and strong and with so much grace…
My last 2 serious relationships…i walked out. It was always me. 1st one left his wife and 2 kids and moved out of state to be with me…he was wonderful..lived together for 8 months…told him to go back home (I wasn’t happy?). 2nd one moved out of state to be with me also…wonderful, loving, trusthworthy, good provider/father, did everything for me….have a 9 yr old daughter together…i wanted out (wasn’t happy?). Every guy I’ve been with has been nothing but kind and wonderful and catered to my every whims and needs. But I always wanted out (dysfuntional me?).
Then came this online guy…the ex of 2 weeks that wouldn’t commit. I swear it must be KARMA!!! At first, he would tell me “I love you’s” all the time and I could never say it back…he finally got fed up and said, “You can f**k my brains out and can’t tell me you love me?!!!” (meaning cybering/phone sex) and i remember sitting there thinking, “What’s wrong with that??”. Now the table has turned, I want him…but he no longer wants me. Actually, he probably still wants me but on HIS terms — me of all people, on a guy’s term (are you kidding me???)!!!! He wants me to visit him and would pay for my plane ticket….i was insulted! You’re a guy and you want me, a girl, to freakin’ visit you first?! Are you out of your sockets?!! He also wants me to move in with him over THERE. No way, you want me, you come HERE!!! Who does he think he is, expecting ME to go to HIM!!
Damn that was a good 6 months!!!! I miss him a bit today (just a teenie weenie bit). If a guy wants you, he will move mountain and earth to be with you. He hasn’t called. I can accept his decision. I wish him nothing but love, luck, and happiness. I think I will always love him………
Well MorningCoffee, I wish I could say I sympathise with your wonderful relationships! Ha ha. But, yeah, I’ve had some pretty good ones too – the last two though, oy. The older you get I think, the more guarded and frightened you are and everyone else is…and you have these sharks out there who have never been married…never been in a LTR, still playin the field when you just don’t expect it…waiting for a new vulnerable woman to pop out of a relationship, or pop on the radar. And it’s easy to blame them, but…well…it’s easy to blame them. Hah!
I’m addicted to this site too. It has made SUCH a difference to me in this whole mess. It is so wonderful to know that there are others! And to know that there are women like you who aren’t offended by our struggles and misery, but see some grace and strength and power in it.
You are all so right on, as usual! Serena, I am interested in the “fantasy version†of him – I would not even want him to show up on my doorstep and proclaim his undying love, because I wouldn’t believe him for one, and could *never* trust him to be faithful, like Planet Jane has alluded to. I’m sure my ex would have no use for engaging in self-discovery, or of exploring his feelings or knowing how his actions affect others in any negative way. He wants to remain deluded that he is “Mr. Wonderfulâ€. I do not want to join him on that roller coaster ride, as it’s been such a relief to be on solid ground for the last few weeks.
Butterfly, recently you said I was sounding stronger, and I *was* feeling stronger, and so empowered to be NC because *I* set that boundary after I broke it off with him, but I was completely taken off guard by my emotional reaction to his lukewarm response to my “business-related email†(with a small personal question thrown in – oops!). I felt like my feelings for him really were decreasing, I felt strong, I was even psyching myself up for him not even responding to the email for a while, as it did not require an immediate response. But he got back to me *way* faster than he did when we were using our “personal†email accounts (only took a couple hours instead of a couple days) – it’s just he was so, blah in his reply. He didn’t have to talk about dreaded *feelings*, or, heaven forbid, our (sticky and disgusting – lol, Planet Jane)*relationship*, it just would have been nice if he had the courtesy of also asking how my summer was. Am I expecting too much here? By the way PlanetJ, you *are*giving support back, thank you.
And Morning Coffee, you say we are all strong, but you sound so strong yourself, after ending those relationships that didn’t make you happy. Could you see a pattern in your “typeâ€, as NML suggests, or do you really think the issues are all with you? Like you, I have become addicted to this site (and also Chapstick, lol), and reading all the stories of the wonderful women here. This is my replacement for IMing with my ex in the evenings – that is, at times that suited HIM!!!
Good night everyone. Sweet (non-EUM/AC related) Dreams!!!
Thanks NML. I was glad that you posted today, I really needed it. This is SUCH a hard process – my word!!! It’s so hard to look at the cold hard truth about yourself, your relationship patterns, what you’ve accepted all this time, and the poor behavior that you’ve deemed acceptable.
This website is a real eye opener – and I’ll tell you, the light really blinds you at first, and your first instinct is to run away and go back and hide in the dark.
It isn’t easy – but I know that this is the first step in real, tangible and hopefully permanent, change.
I realized my pattern after I had broken up with my ex that I dated for a long time – and wasted a lot of my youth with (ages 16-22), and then after him dated another guy similar to him. I then decided it was time to take a break from dating and didn’t date for almost two years …..
Then all of sudden here I am again with the SAME type of guy! Except he’s no longer a momma’s boy looser living with his mommy – he’s an highly educated and accomplished business professional! They come in all shapes and sizes, and unless you wise up – the illusion they create will be sure to lure you in – and ultimately trap you.
I was seeing this punk for almost a year – and it wasn’t until June (after finding this website) that I decided to ‘break it off’. Although, because it’s like CRACK (sorry, I’m failing to come up with a better analogy), every time it was dangled in front of my face I just had to take a hit – only to be hung-over the next day, feeling miserable, and wanting nothing more but to get it out of my system. But it soon as it was … here it comes again.
After reading almost every entry on this website I wised up to my situation and saw it for what it really was (and slept/cried for a good week straight).
I felt I was ‘over him’, and that it was okay to see him again (I know you’re shaking your head in disapproval if you’re reading this) this past Friday. Realized the hard way (as I seem to like to learn things in life) that it was a mistake, and unwise and not to subject myself to that again! That I cannot be ‘friends’ with someone who I’ve had feelings for. They don’t just shut-off like some freaking light switch. No matter how badly you want them to!
He then just E-MAILED me (yes, yes – these guys are ALL the same!), with the subject line “thinking about you, miss you”. And it was right then that I realized what exactly was happening. If this had been 2 months ago (before having the light shone upon my darkness via baggage reclaim), I would’ve accepted that ‘virtual crumb’ with open and willing arms. But not-any-more. I saw it for what it really was and couldn’t believe that I’ve accepted such poor behavior this entire time!! If he really ‘missed me’ and was ‘thinking about me’ or whatever BULLSH*T he wants to feed me – he would’ve done what any MAN would do (assclowns/EU need not apply!) and would’ve CALLED me to ask me how my week and the things involved in my week are going!
I can’t believe what a fool I’ve been. Acceptance, I believe, is the hardest part about this process. Acceptance of what you’ve been doing, accepting responsibility for the garbage in your life that needs to be tossed out, and accepting that you’re more comfortable and familiar with the smell of garbage than you are with wildflowers.
But thank you. Keep posting NML.
@mtbh
“Butterfly, recently you said I was sounding stronger, and I *was* feeling stronger, and so empowered to be NC because *I* set that boundary after I broke it off with him, but I was completely taken off guard by my emotional reaction to his lukewarm response to my “business-related email†(with a small personal question thrown in – oops!). I felt like my feelings for him really were decreasing, I felt strong, I was even psyching myself up for him not even responding to the email for a while, as it did not require an immediate response. But he got back to me *way* faster than he did when we were using our “personal†email accounts (only took a couple hours instead of a couple days) – it’s just he was so, blah in his reply. He didn’t have to talk about dreaded *feelings*, or, heaven forbid, our (sticky and disgusting – lol, Planet Jane)*relationship*, it just would have been nice if he had the courtesy of also asking how my summer was. Am I expecting too much here? By the way PlanetJ, you *are*giving support back, thank you.”
I am so feelin this! I was feeling really good as well, reeeeaally good, especially after my xeum contacted me with a brief text (that I, of course, read into). I coolly responded with an aloof kindness and dignity. He he 😉 Then after another week of nothing, and another few days of me diminishing/acknowledging his text as an incredibly LAME attempt to “make nice-nice” when he knew I’d be in his town – and he might run into me at family/friend functions, I began to feel abandoned and rejected ALL OVER AGAIN. Oh Yay. I want contact – I want him to call me apologetically (in tone – oh no, it is never overt) – like he always does so that I can slam the door in his face! But how many times do I have to do this? I’m addicted to that feeling of satisfaction that just doesn’t seem to last…and right now, just ain’t happenin.
Mtbh, if he did ask you about your summer or some other inane BS – if my xeum called up or texted and made chatty-chat with me again – I think we would feel kinda happy and fuzzy at first maybe…among other feelings and frustrations…but we’d actually be TEMPTED to slip into nice-nice and chatty and get sucked back in to the illusory vacuum of his existence. And that email, that little personal question would EAT at your NC resolve like gangrene! That one little question, “How was your Summer?” Evil. I am SICK to DEATH of Nice-nice and Chatty-chat. F that!
It sucks and it hurts, but the lack of a personal question is a glorious BLESSING! I mean, what a d*ck that he didn’t ask you how you were huh?! Seriously. Who needs that?! D*CK! 😉
This is why NC means NC – I know it’s hard when it is at work, but you don’t NEED to be nice, just professional. Pretend you don’t know him.
Why ask how his summer was? Would you advise a heroin addict to go lick someone else’s used needles?
The fact is that recontact opens up wounds, so I am making a point now to at least semi-NC my ex before the ex (if you know what I mean) other than for practical things. He has someone else to wipe his bum now and so he has no actual USE for me which means he has nothing to say to me (now that he understands that I am not devastated that he is moving in with someone else where a day or two before he was “I want you back” – who needs this rubbish?).
Was it too much to ask that he cares how you are? How many more times do you need telling (generic you, including myself at times): YES IT IS TOO MUCH TO ASK. Get that into your head because it makes you flip the off switch when it starts wavering.
“I can’t believe what a fool I’ve been. Acceptance, I believe, is the hardest part about this process. Acceptance of what you’ve been doing, accepting responsibility for the garbage in your life that needs to be tossed out, and accepting that you’re more comfortable and familiar with the smell of garbage than you are with wildflowers.”
I love your whole post Madeline, but this in particular.
Those Assclowns and Mr. Unavailables are all the same, they all show the same characteristics, they even use the same language. So basically it is quite easy to figure them out early on and send them back to planet Assclown and EUM, it is only tricky once you are emotionally involved. Then it takes time and effort to fall out of love again.
But it can be done, I have survived EUM, an abusive Narcissist and I recently got rid of an Assclown.
I wish I had had all this knowledge years ago, but it is never too late and hopefully I can successfully use it in the future !!
Thank you for this wonderful site and thank you for all the posts and sharing your experiences. I think it is very important to do that, we can learn from each other and support each other.
Thanks Alice. I’m struggling today, thinking partly how wonderful things were in the beginning and also seeing it was a sham. My main thoughts are that I really didn’t deserve what happened – I’m really sorry to hear about the Narcissist, since my last two were both Narcissists (I also wish I’d known what this meant 10 years ago).
EUM is bad enough, the asshole behaviour is enough, but the narcissistic rages are unlike anything else on the planet. Maybe this belongs in the thread about morphing more, but you really truly lose all your bottle walking on egg shells around these explosive, exploitative types.
I think I am feeling down because I can’t afford to go to my friend’s wedding and I truly wanted to. I feel like I am letting her down – she’s also been through this exact mill but is lucky enough to have a man who really loves her (even if he is a bit absent minded). I know she will miss me but I am really sad that I can’t be there to see her.
I read this site every day. So often I think of commenting but all I can think of is to say ”amen”….it is so, well, comforting, to know I’m not alone. I feel like there is truly a sisterhood of us out there who have been on this roller coaster.
Please keep up the posting. I have learned so SO much! Not just intellectually, but it’s sinking in deeper too. Such that I hope I will be aware enough never, ever to step into the same pile of poop again.
A million thank yous! And to all the brave ladies who post too.
@PlanetJan — ” I want contact – I want him to call me apologetically (in tone – oh no, it is never overt) – like he always does so that I can slam the door in his face!”
Although in fantasy this seems like it will bring closure, peace, and satisfaction, the reality may be different! I used to fantasice about confrontation quite often. After my recent unexpected face to face with my ex-EUM where I expressed all my throughts and feelings of anger, saddness etc., I don’t feel better, I feel actually worse. Reconnection of any type is not good until all strong feelings have subsided and shifted into feelings of indifference. But by the time you get to feelings of indifference, you’re not going to care anyway wasting energy on expression of emotion at this point won’t be worth your time. The key is to have NC until all your strong feelings have subsided, both positive and negative and not attempt to reconnect in any way during this time. In the meantime, I suggest expressing your emotions through writing a letter to him that you then burn.
@Butterfly — Thank you. I may seem stronger, but seeing him and engaging with him has rattled my emotions. Even though he sucked it up and took responsibility, it created a reconnection that I was not ready for. Plus, I reacted from a place of emotion rather than a place of being centered and grounded. Although I didn’t say anything really mean and stuck to his behavior and its impact, I was very strong in my reaction and I did wield a couple of sarcastic comments. It makes me want to apologize. I don’t like leaving him with that final impression of me. Now I have to work to disconnect all over again.
@butterfly – thanks and sorry to hear about the wedding you can’t go to. Please don’t feel you are letting her down, surely she will understand your reasons.
Your are absolutely right, EUM and Assclown is really bad, but the Narcissists are quite something. I didn’t know people like that excist in the real world and I would have never guessed I would ever meet someone as evil as that.
But I recovered and all the knowledge I have gained will help me in the future. I did a lot of research on the subject of Narcissists and Dominators and now thanks to this wonderful website I am learning about Assclowns and EUMs as well !! Knowledge is Power and the more I learn, the better I feel.
Butterfly, hope you feeling better and I am sending you a smile and sunshine !!
Nice post 🙂 “If I know what makes me happy, why am I continuously opting for the unhappy route in the hope that one day it will make me happy?”
Because is what is on offer.I know it can be a dysfunctional thought but that is how I see it.I mean sure my favorite dish can be shrimp for example but if Im hungry and there is just lets say sardine on the plate I will take it.I just think isnt all that simple,I mean I did find nice guys but they werent interested on me.So besides finding a guy that is nice,I also have to find one that is interested on me.I spent about 4 years of my life being rejected for guys,every guy I liked didnt like me back so I got a believe that is hard for a guy to be interested on me.Then I usualy just grab every one that shows interest on me.Sure I want a nice guy but if just ACs or EUMs show interest on me,what can I do?
Thanks everyone for your feedback.
@Planet Jane – “I’m addicted to that feeling of satisfaction that just doesn’t seem to last…and right now, just ain’t happenin.†Yes, I guess I’m right there with you. It’s just hard to know when the addiction is fading, because you and I *both* felt we were doing well, and were becoming somewhat “immune†to the AC’s, but apparently not so much when the brief contact happened.
“It sucks and it hurts, but the lack of a personal question is a glorious BLESSING! I mean, what a d*ck that he didn’t ask you how you were huh?! Seriously. Who needs that?! D*CK!†Yes, you have another good point – it’s like he’s helping me to be NC by just briefly answering my question, then not asking back. Thanks for helping me to see that. You’re right – if he’d been all nicey-nice, the temptation to slide down that slippery slope to the EU abyss would have been huge. I’m finding it’s easier for me to give other people advice on this stuff, but hard to take my own advice! I *know* this stuff, why don’t I act like I do???
@Butterfly – “The fact is that recontact opens up wounds†– I have now learned that lesson, and I feel I really got off easy in a way, especially compared to what Serena went through. And what you and Alice have been through with your narcissists. I actually feel much better today though, like I know deep down that it’s good he was “all businessâ€. I will get right back to NC, and keep any personal questions OUT of any emails I have to send. Phew!!! I can’t wait to get to the “indifference†stage. I hope your day gets better Butterfly.
@amy – “I hope I will be aware enough never, ever to step into the same pile of poop again†– yes! I want to get to that point, too. I guess it will just take longer than I hoped…
@mtbh – “I’m finding it’s easier for me to give other people advice on this stuff, but hard to take my own advice! I *know* this stuff, why don’t I act like I do???”
Yep! Know what you mean. But a lot of the time, when I’m writing advice to others, it is re-enforcing my own resolve about my own situation, and it helps! It does.
Today is my xeum’s birthday. I’ve been wondering for a while if I should send him a text, but it’s becoming coolly clear, the answer is: no.
I woke up this morning thinking I should arm myself with a garlic necklace, a crucifix and a wooden stake against my xeum. The wooden stake is my favortie. 😉
Good day everyone!
The birthday comments jogged my memory….
Last October, a month after my birthday, the married, EU showed up at my house with birthday “presents” while I was in No Contact with him…. (I had just found this site right around then, too!)
He had all the little things I like… c.d.’s, hot sauce, yada yada, and THE BIG BEAUTIFUL PRESENT, had written and produced, (music and lyrics) a beautiful song where he played all the instruments and sang all the vocals, He’s a kind of locally famous guy and very talented, and the song was perfectly about our relationship. And I let him in. (mistake) And he said he didn’t call first because he knows I would have told him not to come (which was true). Anyway, here he was with all this “stuff” that reminded me of what made us compatible, but no offer of a real relationship.
I asked him to leave pretty quickly after he showed me all the stuff, and I felt like shit. It isn’t worth it to let them back in. And that started another e-mail relationship that left me sick and empty…. that is when I found NML’s book, and the booklet about how to apply and stick to the No Contact rule.
And I bucked up and cried and drank and got depressed for about a 2 weeks because I knew I could never go back, and I HAD TO stick to this. I wrote him all the angry words I could think of and then read it every day for a week, and then ripped it all up unsent. (good advice for whoever suggested that)
All of you who have had minor “slip ups….” I feel that we can look gratefully at our slip ups just as a reminder that when we have contact with men like this, it is really painful, and it just enforces our resolve to stay away from that sick sort of relationship.
I don’t know about everyone else, but, even though I miss him sometimes, if I compare it to how it felt when I first started NC, the days get fewer and further between where I think of him or wish things were different. There comes that peace where you know you got out of there and took care of yourself, so you don’t want to go back.
I have thrown out everything he ever gave me, deleted the song, broken the original disk, deleted any remaining e-mails, ripped up and discarded pictures…. It is wonderful to know now that there are no physical reminders of him and what he stood for. It is all in a garbage dump where it belongs.
Just rambling….
@lisa – wow, I admire your strength in deleting the song your EUM/MM wrote for you!!! And getting rid of everything else, too. I still have a couple CD’s my AC gave me, but I really like the music and would hate to get rid of them. It would be even harder if they were songs he actually wrote for me, that made the feelings of “compatibility” come back. Good for you!!!
“All of you who have had minor “slip ups….†I feel that we can look gratefully at our slip ups just as a reminder that when we have contact with men like this, it is really painful, and it just enforces our resolve to stay away from that sick sort of relationship.†– thank you for that. I was feeling really disappointed in myself, but if you put it in perspective as a lesson learned, we can all forgive ourselves and get right back to NC
@PlanetJane – PLEASE DON’T send the birthday text!!!!!! I like your idea about the garlic and stake, lol, and it reminded me of something silly that went through my mind the other day. I saw a sign at a service station that said “Complete A/C serviceâ€. Of course A/C means air conditioner, but when I first read it, my brain saw “Complete Assclown Serviceâ€, so I got to thinking, what would this “AC†service involve, exactly? Well, to start, you’d want to fix that annoying blowing hot and cold, wouldn’t you? – pointless to have an A/C that creates the wrong temperature! So definitely fixing the “controls†and thermostat would be first. And don’t air conditioners need Freon to work. Skip the gas for the AC’s – maybe adding some “feelings†would help! Then I searched online and found: The lines would have to be inspected for any leakage (of BS). The “condenser coil†(imagine the closest piece of anatomy) would have to be inspected and cleaned. Check pressure and belt tension. Then you’d perform evacuation of “air†and moisture from the system. Inject A/C cleaner to clear bacterial build up and remove any unpleasant smells (lol). There, that should be a good start! (sorry, I got a little carried away).
@Serena – I hear you honey. When I moved here I got to the stage of truly not caring, or so I thought, but I think it needs that final push. It will pass, for you, for me, for everyone.
@PlanetJane – it’s his birthday huh? Was he, by any chance, very generous to himself? Well send YOU some flowers 🙂 (I bnought myself some beautiful roses the other day, cream and deep red stripes).
@Meant LOL babes that A/C Cleaner made me laugh. So Legionnaire’s Disease breeds in a/c units, proves they are toxic xxx Thanks for your comments earlier 🙂
@ Everyone re the wedding – I have found a way to get there YAY it will be a hideous journey but worth it and not too terrifyingly expensive.
I had to share this. I dunno if you remember me saying some guy talked to me out of the blue again after 2 months, this is proof you shouldn’t reply because I said “I think you should read my reply again” (it said I’d consider being friends but didn’t think we were compatiable … definitely an EUM). I thought that would be dismissive enough but today I got this and I post it for your amusement value. Bloody hell … talk about being explicit!
“I really think it is time to meet and discuss it in person….Maybe it is not 100 % match but I am sure we can have lots of fun…And when you prefer you can rent an appartament from me which is just next door… Then you are both independent and close to have fun when we both need it and the way we are in the mood…Send an sms and we will meet and discuss it… simple as that”
Now there is a language issue here (his first language is not English) but wow … ok so I will stop renting my nice little flat right near the centre of everything and my friends I am making, move out to the relative sticks, become dependent on you for my home and then be there when you are in the mood for some “FUN”?
Priceless.
Oh by the way my day did get better, not just because I got the wedding booked, because I went to buy good healthy food and spent some time out in the sunshine, with other people, makes all the difference 🙂
Re: crumbs, used needles, random texts and so forth … this past weekend I got a sexy text from my ex-AC. While deciding whether/how to reply, NML’s words popped into my head … these crumbs of attention DO NOT MEAN that this guy cares about you. I was able to focus on the fact that all this text meant was that the guy was in need of an ago stoke, and I was a usually reliable source. For some reason, this time I got it; instead of finding the text exciting, I thought, “eeew.” Breakthrough time, I think. 🙂
i agree with so much written here. the NC is hard espeiallay in the beginning and making contact or allowing it doesn’t make you feel beeter. i still think of the xeum and there were times when i wanted to hurt as i was. i look forward to days when i don’t think of him, but those days are not comin fast enough. i feel foolish that i didn’t recognize any of hte signals. this is so painful especially since he has move on with someone else nd they live together days after we ended. today is no the best but i have to keep the NC because i agree taht will help. this site has been so helpful to me thanks to you all for sharing, it helps not to feel so alone. people say they understand and that you will be fine, but it is not that easy.
Why nobody coments on my post?
Anusha sweetheart, my apologies.
You still have to learn to love you … YOU have to love you. Yeah being alone is not always easy, when you see all these happy looking couples and everything seems to scream out to you.
What I sense from you is that you really need validation from other people, which I understand totally – trouble is that the only person whose validation you can ever rely on is your own.
If crappy men are all that is available then you need to work on your self esteem sweetheart, just like us all. My self esteem is terrible and I am really scared that the last chance of love I had was that buffoon who has had too much attention paid to him on these pages. Logically I know this is not likely – yes it is scary, but first and foremost you have to like yourself because if you don’t then it will drive away the people who have a healthy self esteem and draw these losers like jam draws wasps – sweet, too concentrated and easy pickings. Swat these fools and get a lid for your jam jar so only you get the choice of who opens it 🙂
@Anusha – “Because is what is on offer.I know it can be a dysfunctional thought but that is how I see it.I mean sure my favorite dish can be shrimp for example but if Im hungry and there is just lets say sardine on the plate I will take it.I just think isnt all that simple,I mean I did find nice guys but they werent interested on me.So besides finding a guy that is nice,I also have to find one that is interested on me.I spent about 4 years of my life being rejected for guys,every guy I liked didnt like me back so I got a believe that is hard for a guy to be interested on me.Then I usualy just grab every one that shows interest on me.Sure I want a nice guy but if just ACs or EUMs show interest on me,what can I do?”
Hey Anusha, 🙂 I was actually going to comment on your post. And I usually want to comment on everyone’s post, but it’s impossible, cuz I do have to work and stuff. He he.
But, I think what you need to remember is that when EUACs show interest in you, it doesn’t mean they like or want a relationship with you – which is what you ultimately want. If no one is showing interest in you, there is really nothing you can do but be patient – and if you’re really interested, maybe try and get out and meet more people, more singles, let (good, healthy) friends know you’re looking.
But settling for less is actually going against your happiness and having the relationship you want – there is no shortcut, or easy way. You have to be selective in the most important relationship in your life (it’s not shrimp and sardines here). And even if you do meet someone you might like – don’t get involved and invested too quickly. Be patient and watch…get to know the guy and let him get to know you, and if you like yourself and you’re content and happy, there will be more “real stuff” for him to like. I think a lot of us have realized through our struggles that healthy people have not been attracted to us in the past, nor us to them. We must each realize our own reasons for this, and make an effort to change.
Luvs.
That’s all I got. And when the time comes, I hope I can take my own advice. 😉 Take care.
Sorry! @karen yes it’s great when they go moving in with someone right away isn’t it. Just remember, he MIGHT have learned better but the chances are high that he has not.
OK my ex once removed said to me that his new girlfriend loved “the person he was trying to be”.
I think that says it all to me. I know all the dirty dark nasty secrets and she gets to have a loyal faithful boyfriend. Yep. Till the first nice big narcissistic rage outburst sends her numb (he said that her self esteem was better than mine at my worst – mine is pretty crappy, though he said that he meant a time when he was seriously worried I might top myself thanks to my dear ex-asshole).
My self respect is pretty healthy though, and so should yours be karen. I think we all feel stupid for what happened to us, and we shouldn’t because there was no rulebook to tell us where we went wrong – thanks to Natalie now there’s (as someone said earlier, sorry, losing track of posts) “light into my darkness”.
Don’t fight it, no point rushing it, just find something better to do with your time. Those invasive thoughts, the associations. Make new ones. If you associate coffee with him then find a really nice cafe and watch the world go by. It’s late and I am bad with analogies tonight but it really is true that if you make NEW associations then your brain overwrites the old files.
Just don’t make your new associations rebound ones like these apes do!
@Butterfly – “I am really scared that the last chance of love I had was that buffoon who has had too much attention paid to him on these pages.”
Ha ha! Here here! It’s great though that we can get it out WITHOUT them knowing…in a safe environment. Someone posted yesterday that they were frosted that their eum was moving on seemingly unaffected by the loss of them, but as far as eums know, so are we! It’s not perfect, but it’s good.
“first and foremost you have to like yourself because if you don’t then it will drive away the people who have a healthy self esteem and draw these losers like jam draws wasps – sweet, too concentrated and easy pickings. Swat these fools and get a lid for your jam jar so only you get the choice of who opens it.”
Nice! Luv it 🙂 I need a lid for my jam jar. Can I get one at Sears?
If only it was so easy PJ 🙂
I do know one thing. The profile I have on the game we played together? He check it. I’ve caught him out on this and he’s said things that let me know he was actually watching it all along to see what changes there were on it. So you can imagine, the positivity there, the love of my new life (which aside from these buffoons I do love my life) there is just one line that pertains directly to him and it is this: “Sanity restored. Now let’s have some f***ing fun and laughter!”
Thank you girls,sorry if I was rude.Im just having a hard day with relationships today,I fell I dont get reciprocated as I should.Im having problems with my friend,I fell just me contribute to the friendship.Im the one always iniciating contact and going for her when she never does that to me.I even stayed a few days without going to her since I had told myself that I wouldnt be doing all the work anymore and put some coments about friendship on my FB status to see if she would notice it but she didnt.Today I got enough of it and just sent her a message saying that I was unhappy with her and felling like she isnt contributing to the friendship and that even though I like her a lot if she doesnt change I wont be her friend anymore because I dont fell like doing all the work by myself.Im pretty bothered with that and with the fact that those kind of things seem to happen a lot on my life.Besides her I have 2 more friends that act the same way and it seems Im always atraction that kind of situation to my life.I just fell realy pissed with relationships right now.Anyway at least I told her what is on my mind and Im setting boundaries,Im not willing to keep people that dont contribute to the relationship on my life anymore.And sorry if I end up taking out my bad mood here.
@Butterfly – looks like your “2 months ago†EUM is looking for a below-the-belt match! He needs to be sprayed with AC cleaner!!! It’s odd how they think it’s OK to just be looking for a bit of “fun†when we have made it clear we are looking for a mutually satisfying relationship. My ex was just the same – “we’ve had a lot of fun so far, let’s see where else that leads (in the bedroom, of course)†– “you are a wonderful distraction†– yuck!!! Good that you found his email laughable, and that you realize you shouldn’t even have sent the “dismissive†message.
@Skyscraper – Yay you!! How long did it take you to get to that “breakthrough†time where you were not excited by his text?
@karen – that must be so difficult knowing he moved in with someone else days later. Stay strong!!!
@Anusha – I agree with everyone’s advice. I used to go out with guys I knew were not compatible with me at all (not even shared interests, and no real shared values), because I hated being without a boyfriend, too. I remember this one guy I went out with briefly was into really weird, almost Satanic stuff (which is NOT an interest of mine!!!) and he smelled like a sweaty sheep, so he was kinda gross to kiss, but I was young and foolish and so I stayed with him for a little while. There were other weird ones, too, and thank goodness I raised my standards as I got older. I just focused on my school and my work, and later my interests, and eventually I did have some satisfying relationships (although most were EU, some were much healthier than others). So please don’t lose hope – learn to love YOU, and you will attract healthier men, as others have suggested.
@Planet Jane – yes, that was me who was miffed that my ex did not seem to be having a hard time after we broke up – but you’re right – for all he knows, I’m doing just fine, too!!! Lol Repeat after me: We’re all doing just fine without them. Yessssss!!!
@MtbH — it took about two months of NC, more or less to get to this point after an 18 month hot/cold relationship. I used to get a text from him and think, “He loves me; he’s thinking of me!” When I got this most recent text, I thought, “He’s probably drunk and horny and thinks you’ll give in.” Which was not validating for me at all. Ick. Feels like progress to me. I’ve been reading here for months; the stories of the regular posters have really helped me, so I thought it was time to share.
Anusha … please don’t apologise. It’s one thing to apologise when you’ve done something or hurt someone – it’s totally inappropriate for apologising for existing. Your comment on Facebook was a little passive aggressive to be really honest, if you are finding yourself looking for drama then … don’t bother saying things, don’t give ultimatums, just stop making the effort. If they are friends then they will make some effort back. If they are not then keeping your attention on them keeps the door closed to the chance to meet new people because your mind is blinkered by your distress.
@Meant you are really making me laugh today 🙂 However I can’t believe he said to you that you are a wonderful distraction. WTF??? Having his balls slammed repeatedly in the door would be a distraction too … lol
A satanic sweaty sheep …lol
@Butterfly- I tried that,I dont talk to her for a few days already but she still didnt do any effort.Is like she not even noticed something is going on.About the FB coment,I agree it might seem passive agressive but I just was trying to make her notice that I wasnt happy with how she has been acting (what didnt worked too since she not even asked what that was about).I just cant just walk away because I realy like her and would like to continue being friends so I saw that message I just sent her like the last chance to save our friendship.If after that she still doesnt start doing effort,I guess I will have no choice but walk away.
@Butterfly – “A satanic sweaty sheep …lol” – thanks for the giggle! You know, I feel like I’ve been in a fog for the last few weeks, that I’m finally starting to rise out of. I feel my sense of humour coming back – I think it’s been in hiding for a long time – not just since the breakup, but while I was involved with him too. Interesting.
@Anusha – so, have you ever gone out with someone similar to my satanic sweaty sheep? lol.
Re: your friend – have you had an honest talk with her in person? That may be a more effective way of discussing your friendship, instead of what NML refers to as “lazy” electronic communication. Just a thought Sweetie 🙂
Anusha sounds like she doesn’t make you happy hon. I didn’t mean to sound rude, hope it didn’t come across that way, but some people are just so self absorbed that they never see anything.
@ Meant yeah … it was my sense of humour attracted my ex, and that was right out of the window with him after a while. I felt … a simmering resentment, I guess. Familiar?
Hey ladies i ran by a classic quote:
“When it comes to men that are romantically interested in you, it’s really simple: just ignore everything they say, and only pay attention to what they do.” – Professor Randy Pausch ‘The Last Lecture’
This really spoke to my Anxious Annie A$$. I hope it speaks to some of you as well. Luv ya all…Thanks for being here.
OMG! My xeum called me a “wonderful distraction” too! That was like, after the first of many disappearing acts. W-T-F? Is there a EU/AC Book out there – a dictionary or phrase book or something!? That phrase stuck in my mind, and broke my heart on a daily basis. Damn…I’d forgotten about that. I’ll add it to the list I go through when I think about contact. 🙁
@Meant to be Happy- No hopefuly I never went out with someone similar to your satanic sweaty sheep lol My friend lives in another country(she spent the last 6 months here) so I cant talk to her in person.So IM and messages are the only way I can comunicate to her.
Buterfly-Yes right now she not making me happy.At least I dont fell she is doing her part in the friendship and caring about me.
“When it comes to men that are romantically interested in you, it’s really simple: just ignore everything they say, and only pay attention to what they do.†– Professor Randy Pausch ‘The Last Lecture”
So true,my EUM would say he loved me and all that but looking to his behaviour it realy didnt seem so.
@Butterfly – “I felt … a simmering resentment, I guess. Familiar?” – oh yes, that’s sounding familiar. How dare they treat us like this. How dare they move on like nothing happened, how dare…. I definitely resent him. But I will move past that, like we all will. We are free now to resume being our amazing “pre-EUM” selves!
@Nene – yes, a great quote. Words to live by. Is the Last Lecture a movie? it sounds familiar, but I can’t remember where I heard of it.
@Meant – I meant at the time! All these “funny” things he said I realise now that I know about clinical narcissism they were really part of a mechnism. Like saying hello to everyone in the room except me INCLUDING a dog and saying “well that’s everyone important I’ve said hello to”. Nice joke, asshole. Of course everyone else laughed, and “Isn’t he just so cute?”.
In a word, no.
Absolutely love that quote Nene, thanks for posting. So true.
Ooooh. There was a reason I was back at the keyboard.
In the back of my mind there was a song running. Not my taste in music, but I found myself half singing a lyric and wasn’t sure of the words but it was making my radar twitch a little bit. Well, you may wish to tweak the gender but I think it underlines what I have been increasingly feeling, it isn’t all one way with crappy men and poor innocent women. However, this song is from the 1970s as I recall:
What A Fool Believes by the Doobie Brothers. Apt:
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/d/doobie+brothers/what+a+fool+believes_20042480.html
@Butterfly – yes, I meant at the time, too (that’s the “how dare he treat me like this part 😉 *and* for a time after. Mine had a sarcastic sense of humour, which I didn’t always fully appreciate, especially when I, like you, was the one being targeted. And no, they’re not cute. They’re pathetic!
and like you, I have had songs in my head today! I have sung along to “What a Fool believes” in the past, and thought of me and my ex! And also “Insensitive” by Jann Arden, and “No Surprise” and “Over You” by Chris Daughtry, and so many more. I think EU people must inspire many songs!!!
“You’re So Vain” springs to mind (hard as it is to imagine since he himself would say he is “funny looking”!)
Time For Me To Fly, REO Speedwagon
[Aint Nothing Gonna] Break My Stride by little Mathew Wilder 😀
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=aint+nothing+going+to+break+my+stride&emb=0&aq=3&oq=aint+nothing+g#
Urgh Nene I always hated that song!!!! lol
Here I am again, right after work;) reading and soaking in everyone’s courageous tales of life, love, and heartaches…*huggiezzzzzzzz*
@PlanetJane — NO TEXTING to wish him Happy BDay!!!! Sit on your hands, tape your fingers, (text me instead lol), DON’T DO IT!!! It will make you feel crappy afterward. Hide your cell, put in the cupboard or freezer or oven hehe if you have to!!!
Here’s a quote, “I’ve met the enemy and it’s MEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!” (If you do it, I’m gonna tag this quote on ya lol)
OK let me continue reading…had to pause and post that real quick 😀
Sara Bareilles Too Good for You (check out these lyrics:
http://artists.letssingit.com/sara-bareilles-lyrics-too-good-for-you-so-sorry-1r2x8nn
Better in Time, Leona Lewis
BUTTERFLY! What’s to hate about Matt’s song?! LMAO :b
And i thought we were Sistas: My childhood nickman was Butterfly.
Nickman? Yikes! What kind of Freudian slip was that?
I meant ‘nickname’
@Anusha- “why nobody respond to my post?” hehe so cute…we’re here!!!! — just busy deciding whether to eat the damn shrimp or sardine! hehe 😀 If it’s shrimp you want, politely send the stinky sardine away (unless the sardine reeks of good potentials), wait for the shrimp to serve….are you afraid of being alone? I think deep down we all are (I know I definitely am), but there’s a sense of peace, almost majestic, in being able to enjoy one’s company. I’m a loner by nature. I find solace in my own solitude (reading, watching movies, chatting, etc)…strength comes from within….it’s buried deep down somewhere within you….find this ray of light within…
Never let the world become so cloudy with dust and rain that your eyes become covered and you can’t find your way home again. Don’t hide from yourself – forget this outside world – it does not matter- when you have something inside worth more than the world will ever see. *Huggiezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*
NICKMAN? lol
Actually tho the lyric really does apply and I didn’t know the other song Meant but … there really is no mystery is there once you see the light?
Night night ladies, hope you have a serene evening.x
@Meant to be Happy — TOOO FUNNYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!! I’m sitting here cracking up like an diot about the “Complete Assclown Service” LOL!!! hahahahaha I can do a better job, just give me the freakin’ HAMMER! LOL I’ll never think of Air Conditioner the same way again! lol So witty and true!;)
I don’t know everyone’s story here since i just stumbled onto this site last month (can’t even remember how I got here…but soooo glad am here!:) I’m a bit familiar with PlanetJane’s story…a 2 years ex relationship and something about wanting to torture the creep until blood gush out of his eyeballs? (ok am way off here, but something about wanting to unleash those pin-up rage in the worse way hehe).
Anyone care to share their story again?
Strength in unity…it’s worse when we isolate ourselves. STAY STRONG AND BE STILL!!!! When there’s nothing we can do, the only route is to be still – NC – be still and do nothing (hard as shit though lol but who says it was gonna be easy?;)
Oh yeah!! Forgot to mention – loved the A/C Service too. If only!
And MorningCoffee, do not worry. I will NOT text my xeum a B-day message today…I pondered it, because I still feel somewhat guilty that I can’t maintain the “friend” status – which he always claimed was SO important to him. And, big surprise! He has quite a few ex-friends (women) who don’t want to be friends anymore and have basically gone NC on him. Wow! Go figure! He didn’t want to lose me too. But I re-read, several times, the post on “When your ‘love’ is interpreted as desperation.” And I KNOW that my B-day message, while he would probably welcome…and maybe even expect it, it would be interpreted as quite loser-ish and desperate. And no, I’m not goin tho. SO…you don’t have to tag me!
Any news on your snail mail…any response?
@ Anusha,
It sounds like you are counting beans. You and your friend are staring at a pile of beans on the table, and you are concerned about having put on more than anyone else.
It shouldn’t work like that.
First, you should have boundaries. Sensible boundaries about unacceptable behavior based on legal and moral issues – and not about relative amount of effort or contribution. Things like “I will not harm animals for fun.” “I will not allow smoking in my life.” “I will receive respect from the people I associate with, or I will avoid them in the future.”
Look at it this way. One perspective on dating is that dating is for fun. If you don’t make an occasion fun for the guy, he should be responsible enough to not come back. The limits? You need to enjoy making him enjoy time with you, you cannot violate any of your boundaries. If you don’t enjoy making him happy, thank him and move on. If making him happy means doing something you are not comfortable with, or that violates a boundary – call a cab and run home immediately.
A friendship can be the same way. If you don’t have the capacity, right now, to visit or contribute, then you are at your capacity for now, and you should rest and recover. If you are going to worry about what you get back, I think you are straying into poisonous waters. The purpose of making friends is to engage in community, to have someone to talk to, to share burdens and joys with.
If you aren’t enjoying being a friend to your friend, then she shouldn’t be enjoying the situation either.
One Bible lesson I recall has someone ask Jesus about how many times we should forgive someone that offends us. Seven times? No, seven times seven. This comes to 49, but the discussion I recall was along the lines that we are expected to lose count – and never come to the end of forgiving. The reality for us humans, is that there are boundaries, and we need to avoid repetitions of disrespect and abuse – we leave the discourteous blighter in our past.
I heard the infamous, angry tirade about “I will go 51% of the way, but I will not go hundred percent of the way!!” I heard it many times. And it still doesn’t make sense. This assumes that the other person actually wants, to the exact same degree, at the exact same time, the same something that I want, and has the exact same ability and capacity to contribute. And that never happens. It is disrespectful to assume that about anyone.
Are you sure that you aren’t letting your feelings about love, and about life, get in the way of your friendship? Now is not a good time to drive people away. EUM’s and AC’s act to isolate their partner from life, from their family and community, at a time that their partner needs that contact the most.
A cheerful outlook – assuming that no one we respect would ever hurt us intentionally, that stuff happens that isn’t anyone’s fault – can be a lot happier way to live. The limits? When we know, directly, that someone has hurt us deliberately when they didn’t have to (a dentist drilling a tooth, for example), we must withdraw our trust and respect. Otherwise, we want to keep our acquaintances and friends, we struggle to earn and keep their trust and respect.
Peace.
@Brad and PlanetJane- Yes I agree that we cant expect people to reciprocate how we want all the time but you think is right me doing all the effort to keep this friendship? I see keeping contact with friends as a ball game,sometimes is you throwing the ball and sometimes is the other person.What is the fun in just you throwing it all the time? I dont fell that she just not reciprocating how I want,I fell that she isnt reciprocating at all.If I go after her or start talking to her she respond yes but she never realy iniciate any contact.Any relationship is 50% your responsibility and 50% the other part responsibility,so if the other person not doing her part shouldnt I just walk away instead of doing the work for both of us?
@MorningCoffee- Yes Im afraid to be alone.I know I can make it on my own but I dont want to be alone.I want to have a husband and kids someday.Im on the age that my mother got married and had me and my friends that have someone are all getting engaged,married or having kids and I not even have a bf yet.So yes Im anxious for a relationship but I have been thinking,I just have been trying to find the right guy but maybe I should forget all that for a while and concetrate on having a better relationship with myself or I probably just will continue atracting those bad relationships.
@Anusha – yeah, I see what you mean. I wouldn’t terminate the friendship though. Maybe you could step back a bit and stop contacting her so much. Just because she isn’t making contact now, it doesn’t mean she doesn’t care, or want to be friends. Friendships can last a lifetime and they can shift and change over time. Just a thought. You know best!
Ladies, I’m listening to this song repeatedly 😀 Let’s see if I can post it – It’s Kristinia DeBarge, Goodbye. There is a post on here about “Singing your way to feeling better” or somethin like that. A lot of good suggestions for music on there 😉
Anusha, I agree with Brad K. We can’t always expect our friends and other relationships to reciprocate exactly how we’d like them to.
I grew up with out a Mom, and I’ve always developed very close relationships with women and I notice that, at times, especially times of stress or pain, I expect a lot of emotional support from them. I almost expect them to know what I need and act accordingly…like a parent. But no one can live up to that. It helps me to understand why I do this, and I know I need to take steps back and soothe myself. We always have ourselves for support. Always. As is pretty much the theme of this website, you can’t get it from outside…that love comes from within. Thankfully!
I’ve also found that it never hurts to take a few (kind) steps back from something, and just look for a while.
Couldn’t sleep (too hot, too humid) and went looking for info on narcissists (taking my medication against “but IS he really that bad?” and there’s a great long rambling post which I have not finished which is absolutely enlightening http://narcissicticpersonalitydisorderforum.yuku.com/topic/369/t/Narcs-do-you-feel-alone.html
A (short) extract:
BUT in our brains the puzzle pieces that function as “emotions” & “feelings” are either missing or misplaced. It seems to change from NARC to NARC what feelings we all have. I cant feel love, I cant feel compassion or at least not at the appropriot times & usually there is a whole thought process I have to go through before I feel something. BUT I have OVERSENSITIVE feelings when I meet someone and think they ARE the ONE who finally showed me love…that usually lasts at the MOST 3 months. When the “normal” person is usually “falling” in LOVE, I am falling more and more out, unconsiously ripping & picking you apart in my head and even to you, until I make you worthless to me. So, what I always think is “LOVE” I learned, was OBSESSION. If you didnt want me I would keep manipulating you until I won you over OR I would feel my heart was broken when it was all over. The two people who broke my heart did it in two weeks. I could ONLY see things in BLACK AND WHITE, you are either good or bad, which makes everyone WONDERFUL at first but eventually I would see all your faults MAGNIFIED 100000 times. They would have to be perfect to live up to my conditions (of good or bad) & since no one is perfect, well you can understand how long term relationships could never work in my NARC life, UNLESS they were useful to me, like if I needed them somehow…especially the rich ones because they can keep things more interesting for a longer period of time, usually making my life easier. I viewed my obsessions as “love” and did not know there was a difference until about 2 years ago. I learned that most NARCs assume that everyone REALLY feels this way, but that we all have an acting role in this thing called “LIFE”. Using eachother to serve purposes. NOW as an “SN” I think I am even more miserable because I thought that I just had not found the right person, and when I did I would have that intense (obsessed & false) love forever. Now I know that person does not exsist AND that I watch everyone LOVE and CARE and FEEL, yet no matter how hard I try, I cant feel the joy that makes you want to exsist here. I often wonder if I ripped people apart because they loved me and somehow it was not fair that they were allowed to feel it, but I wasnt, I’m not sure. NARCS hate rejection, some dont even accept it, we also hate to be told what to do or to be criticized, there is no such thing as “constructive critisizm” in our world. But were are VERY aware of personal attacks. There is a feeling we need to get from you to fill a void and we will be the best cameleon to show you were are who you want us to be in order to feel like you will never leave us. WE have to be the ones to leave. We learned to pretend the feelings that dont come naturally and become perfect actors because we are So aware of how our reactions will affect you, BUT really only caring of how they will then affect US.
Useful stuff.
@MorningCoffee – love this quote “Never let the world become so cloudy with dust and rain that your eyes become covered and you can’t find your way home again. ” By the time I got to this point I starting crying, and then dry-heaving, because another guy didn’t call when he said he would… I can see improvement in myself but it’s slow. I still have a few guys that I see occasionally I guess for ego-strokes, well, really, for physical desire too. That’s the biggest problem I have with turning down “sardines” to wait for “shrimp” – I’m so hungry! It’s a long standing pattern but it’s still hard for me not to just want sex with a man I find attractive (when they every-so-often feel the same toward me). I’m not sure how to get beyond this, but at least I am learning, over the 8 months or so that I’ve read this site, about AC/EUMs and even my own EU tendencies.
I wanted to send a huge thank you and hug to all of you, for sharing these struggles. A lot of it, with guys and with friendships, is that you just can’t control others’ behavior, and you have to be able to keep busy and move on to new things when it becomes clear that the other person isn’t as into it as you are. I really love this site, and I’m slowly, gradually, learning and changing.
Edit to my post above: my emotional upset was not just due to the guy not calling, but also due to all the wonderful, insightful posts.. I was moved.
Edit to my post above: my emotional upset was not just due to the guy not calling, but also due to all the wonderful, insightful posts.. I was moved. Yet also saddened by the reminders of these AC’s behavior and how empty it leaves us all feeling.
Good Evening all,
I know that we are all at various stages in our relationship “dilemmas” but I think we really have to work hard to act out of fear. Like several of the posters in Part 3, I am in my 40’s, so the pool of available men in my age group that would be acceptable to me is limited. I had figured I would never get married, but when I met my guy, who seemed to be what I wanted and have the qualities I wanted, I thought I hit the jackpot. I ignored “my little voice” telling me to pay attention to little things. While he broke it off with me, I thank God he did this. Yes, it hurts now, and yes I made end up being alone for the rest of my life. However, I have a job, live in a house that I own (well, the bank and I own it) and have no one to tell me what to do. I realized that if I married this man, I would have given up my house to live with him, and would ultimately have been afraid to live what would now be my own home. Not physically afraid of him (he was not physically abusive) but I would have been afraid to express an opinion that would have been different from his just trying to avoid confrontation or worrying that if I said something and he did not agree, my views and opinions would have been ridiculed and dismissed-or he would withdraw like a toddler and pout. I am a grown woman who did not have a bad life before him (wasn’t perfect, but whose life is?) but it was not a bad one. I was willing to trade that in for what-to say I have a husband? Clearly, I was the one who was getting the short end of the stick.
I think women ignore the fact that men can smell desperation a mile away and if you come off desperate, the EUM is free to do anything because he feels you are desperate enough to accept anything. In his last email to me, I felt a tone of anger, which I took to be partial guilt about the way he ended the relationship, and his own frustration at his inability to completely open himself emotionally. He should get some therapy, because guess what? We are the not only ones that will end up being alone-so will they. Oh sure, some woman will always be willing to pick them up and take crumbs they are willing to dish out-but they will never have a true emotional bond with anyone. Also, just like for us, it gets harder and harder to find an older woman willing to put up with nonsense just to have a man-after having been through the ringer with some of these jerks. Some of these EUMs/ACs don’t even know what they are missing-too bad for them.
I am so happy I found this site. My AC just reappeared in my life after a year. Showed up and then disappeared just as fast. When he contacted me he told me he was not looking for something just physical, blah, blah, blah. Thank god I kept my pants on, cause he was gone just as fast as he came. We’ve been doing this dance for three years now, barely see each other cause he’s in NYC and London and I’m in Chicago. It’s been four weeks, not even one phone call hello. Sent one email a week after our date to say how great it was to see me- a WEEK! I think he is married b/c the phone number he has given me is a disposable cell phone that works part time. Not even once have I ever gotten his home phone or cell that works continuously.
What the hell is he hiding that I can’t get a home phone number in three years?
It is unfortunate that I did not listen nor take on board the great advice given by many posters and NML’s posts..
I have reinstated myself again as the fallback girl not sure how to undo this..
I will assume he is playing games with me and contacted me to reassure himself that I would be there should he need me..I can see how accommodating I sounded on the phone.. so no wonder nearly three weeks have passed and I’ve heard nothing..
I ended all forms of contact with him and did so well for 5 months I didn’t count days, I didn’t think about him constantly, ocassionally I missed him but I survived.. then I slipped and like some other posters I did not get the response I wanted.
I can say that my anxiety levels are back up wondering is he going to do what he says will he call and the stupid endless count of how many days have passed and I still haven’t heard… I feel he has me exactly where he wants me and it is not good..
So anyone who is doing well in their no contact don’t break it because you do end up feeling worse!!!!! and have to go through the whole process again and that is hard …
Good luck to the above posters hope you have the strength to carry on and don’t have to learn the hard way …
Guys, I am so sorry to admit that I forward “HIM” a portion of this site, after a afew glasses or merot. Yes I am an a-hole.lets not be too nice shall we, should he make himself known. My opologies. I would say more but I trully am very, very sad now 🙁
It’s exactly 1 week since the snail mail…nothing from him….
Tonight…. I miss him soooo much I think my heart will shatter into gazillion pieces…why do i have to be so stubborn & prideful? why couldn’t I just returned his 3 voicemails and talk it out? why can’t i scream and yell and throw tantrums like normal people do? why do i retreat and hide inside myself and grow silent and cold? why do I have this heavy chain around my heart surrounded by walls and fortresses as if they will protect me? In times of pain, I have my books, my philosophy, and my poetries….they will protect and shield me from this pain…..
I tell others to cry…but why can’t i cry? I want to cry, i want to unleash this pain, this agonizing pain within…it’s been 2 weeks….i should cry…i want to cry…but i can’t…i can’t cry…the tears won’t come….my heart is too shielded….i feel pain..but my mind is too stubborn…too stubborn to allow the tears to flow…pain is just pain…it will go away….
I see him in my mind.. lying on the sofa (lives alone, sleeps on sofa most nights, talked on cell 4 or so nights a week until morning)….i see him lying there…thinking of me.. yet just as stubborn. I miss his voice..his deep sexy voice yet so playful and carefree without a worry in the world, i miss that he’s so strong he makes me feel safe, i miss that he was sick and high on Nyguil and said, “I miss you honey” amidst stuffy/runny nose, i even miss his stupid jokes (“my love for you is like diarrhea, i just can’t hold it in”), and most of all, i miss his heart and character… i miss that he taught me never to hurt anyone, not even animals. He said even animals have lives too…even bugs, spiders, ants, those unnoticeable creatures…he said even those tiny creatures want to live too; yesterday i saw an ant…normally i would stomp on it without second thought…but remembering his words, i tossed it outside. I miss that he has strong character (but his stubborness drives me insane), i miss that he can stand his ground and knows his own mind. I miss that he’s smart and can debate and challenge me on every level, intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually…i miss that he’s 42 and still single, never had kid and wants kid(s)..i miss that he wants a son and wants to name him something so funky i freaked.. i miss that deep down he wants a relationship but it never worked out…i miss that he has this void in his life, I feel his loneliness within…i miss that he wants a home, a family but feel that he could never have….
I hope he’s doing fine. I hope he finds the love he’s searching…If only he can hear my words, “..truth is sacred…so is love within each heart. If you treasure those few simple moments, as I have treasured them, you will know, that no one can take that away…Good night love.”
Nitey everyone *huggiezzzzzzzzzzz*
@Anusha
I’ve only posted a few times on this blog but read it a lot. I had a friend in high school that extended into the college years. In the last few years, I felt like I kept the relationship going. I always called and was the one that wanted to make plans. One time I called to see if my friend wanted to go to Vegas with me, and she called back about five days later. That’s not my definition of friendship. You shouldn’t have to do all the work. Sometimes, in relationships, there’s an ebb and flow. But the ball to keep the friendship going was in my court for far too long. So I ended the relationship, saying, “We’re not friends. And we haven’t been for a long time.” I gave her so many chances to be a better friend, but she just couldn’t. If she doesn’t get her act together, there are plenty of other people who will be great friends to you. And I haven’t regretted letting that relationship go for one second; too many other fun and amazing people have come into my life, people I might not have let in my life if I had still been her “best friend.”
Interesting. I had actually woken up thinking “I forgive him, poor bastard” because now I have closure. Then I read Morning Coffee’s post and got a horrible feeling in my stomach – anxiety. MC, get a grip woman. You’re sharing your fantasy and missing your fantasy NOT him.
Hmm. So do I forgive him? Deep breath. Actually yes I do, and I *MIGHT* (I hasten to say might) drop him a note to tell him why. Hate has no place in my heart and if he really can’t feel anything it makes so much sense. Finally, Natalie, “he has the emotional capacity of a stone” has been put into words and contexts for me (by a woman, naturally!). I forgive him I have compassion for him which he can’t have for me – and I don’t want him in my life.
Maybe I will drop him a line to let him know I don’t hate him but that any contact method is blocked, will remain blocked and to consider that it. However …
What if he doesn’t respect that? I see that as an act of compassion. HE will see that as “I knew she’d come back cos I’m AWESOME”.
You know this, I know this, and the guy is beyond help but something has changed inside me.
The horrible feeling I got when I read MC’s post was not about my ex, not about the fact that all those things he said were wrong (I don’t think it’s true actually, I really do think he did the best he was actually capable of – it just wasn’t much). Maybe he was thinking of how HE thought he had found “the One” who would free him from his guilt and shame cos he certainly said it (“And I’m good for you, and this will never get old” were his words verbatim, as one example).
It’s not that I am not bound for the States, or that he won’t be attending this wedding in a few weeks (my friend said it was just as well, since she didn’t want to have the first wedding with a bloodbath at their nice little church – oh my friends hate him so very very much, far more than I ever could). It’s not that Christmas this year he won’t fly over to me. No.
That horrible feeling was the thought of being the fallback girl. The thought of sitting there idealising someone and being in love with the contents of my own head. So he called you honey, MC, so what? Mine rescued a three legged cat, spent a fortune on it and had to have it put to sleep so it proves he can feel compassion right?
For animals.
I won’t contact him, because you know what? It’s a reverse ego stroke. It’s MY need talking, not anything for him or anything noble. It’s how I want to prove to myself that I am a nice woman and you know what? I still love the idiot, and not the idealised version – I want to talk to the real him and help free him from his misery.
RED FLAG RED FLAG RED FLAG RUN AWAY …
It’s enough that I can see the light, and that there are more lights ahead. The harbours and the seas might be dark but there are lights all around us if we choose to look and not set sail for the deepest darkest black hole where we know we will flounder on those big sharp jagged rocks.
@butterfly when I did the research on Narcissists I found an amazing site. It is written by a man who is a Narcissist and he explains everything how those people think, act, etc
. http://samvak.tripod.com/narcissismglance.html
check it out, it gave me all the answers and I finally found the closure that those guys never give you. I loved one comment he made – through this website you get the chance to learn about Narcissists from a safe distance, because you wouldn’t go into a tigers cage would you !
When I got rid of the Assclown, I did the following :
I enlarged and printed the most disgusting photo of him (totally drunk and legless on his sofa and “decorated” by his “friends”) and pinned it on my kitchen door. Every time I pass it, I am thinking, so glad I don’t have to put up with this anymore (he was drunk most of the time) and also this is what his new girl friend (he cheated on me with her and cheated on her with me) is getting. It helps.
@Planet Jane you are absolutely right with your comment earlier on. The key is to take your time with men, get to know them and listen to what they have to say and don’t be scarred to get rid of them as soon as you sense a red flag.
Have a good day and be happy 😉
Sam Vaknin’s site is useful to start with but it has a big flaw in my opinion.
He’s a pretty unrepentant narcissist, and as you read through there is this unpleasant undertone of “You will never rid yourself of this now”. He talks about the narcissist leaving his “alien seed” behind in his “victims” and throughout all this I think he is having the most massive ego-w*nk possible and probably reliving lots of his conquests (and I think anyone who has been with a narcissist knows they love to do so, regardless of whether they are the somatic type, the cerebral type or a mixture of both. My ex was – oh joy – a mixture of both).
I know wish I’d kept a picture of him lying drunk on the floor that he sent me. It wasn’t flattering, and when I first split with him I didn’t go through killing off the past with him – after I was dumb enough to go back for more punishment it was the last photo I deleted. Maybe I am glad it has gone but it did actually show him in far more of a light in keeping with how he treated me – lol.
Well, here goes…
I’ve visited this site a couple of times after stumbling upon it about 2 or 3 months ago. It helped me out a couple of nights when I was struggling not to message or call my “issue”. I don’t even know how I found the site. It was surely from my hopping from one place to another online searching for a reason for, some advice on, or proof that I was over-reacting to the mess I’d made for myself.
I met this person two years ago…oh god…the ugly truth comes. I met him online. After building what I thought was a simple friendship I went to visit him in about 5 months. I had the most wonderful time with him and actually didn’t want to leave. That fact shocked me and here is the reason. When I arrived at the airport and saw him…I realized that he looked much older than I’d expected. Not decades older, but a bit more than his pictures looked. I wasn’t sure how I felt about that, but I’d made my mind up to visit my friend and there I was…and there he was, so I felt it would be a pleasant experience. It was more than that. I just am not sure what came over me, however. Things that I assumed would turn other women off…intrigued me about him. He was actually showing his best face to me…going the distance to be charming. And I realized this…he was nervous about what I thought of him. I really wasn’t expecting that. He seemed a less confident than he had in our getting to know you process online and over the phone. So I figured…”hmmm, he’s human.” I left that feeling beautiful, enchanted, and satisfied. Wow…satisfied and the sex wasn’t very good….SO NOW HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN??? Never happened to me before…so what was that? A mojo or something? Oh shoot…I didn’t mean to tell y’all it became intimate on the first visit! Okay, honesty is the best policy and it was safe-sex, at least.
Within the two years…I agreed that we should live closer, so I began making plans to get a job where he lived. I had no intention of moving in with him because I have children (personal boundry I set after becoming a mother) He’d have his place and I’d have mine…I believed he preferred that also. Well, because we were creatures of the online experience, I went to the same sites he did. In January of this year, comments were being left for him that may have caused me to take pause, but I left it alone because of the childish nature they took shape in. For instance…I believe that if something I wanted to say to him came up…I would either pick up the phone and call him or leave a personal note or e-mail for him. The way this person was communicating her thoughts in the open was at the time confusing to me. Flirting, as it were…but I was concerned about it. During one of our conversations in the early part of the year, we were not seeing eye to eye and I reasoned with him that maybe we were not looking for the same thing and he assured me that we were on the same page and that I shouldn’t read things into something that is not there. I suppose he was speaking about my hopes of a continued relationship, because within 2 months…this woman had moved to his town, into his house (I assume), and he stopped contacting me the week that I found out she was there. He actually just went silent on me and I had no idea what was happening.
Oh heck…more honesty here. You see when he went silent and didn’t answer any communications I was sending…I started digging. Never look for something that you don’t want to find. I went to her page and noticed that her location had changed from one state to his…and on her wall, she’s told someone the time she moved there. It’s like I’m standing here watching with two mismatched socks and one shoe. After two months…she’s in! And I’m packed with a job to start soon and boom!!! A day late and a dollar short? After two years…he never stopped looking, I suppose. The whole time I’ve know him, he never updated his status from divorced and now…he’s “in a relationship”. This is hard to talk about, because I’ve been so hopeful. Decided I wouldn’t handle this like I’d done over and over. Checked myself…didn’t trip on dumb stuff. When I’d gotten discouraged at the time it was taking to move, he’d told me to be patient because the things we really want come in the hardest way.
And he’s still silent. No you don’t have to tell me it’s over…it’s be since the end of May. And I am still so far away from where I need to be in accepting this. So far that I actually went to a site of his and saw something like…finally found the one I was looking for…and they…oh I wouldn’t know this if I didn’t dig it up…
And he’s still silent…and today, PlanetJane…is also his birthday. I’m about to explode…it feels like I’ve been kicked in the chest. Her age is the same as mine…her profile list of things she wants could be something I wrote…physically we are very different. No, no…I’m not asking why her? (oh heck..you know I’ve already done that)
It’s like “I want her…shoo fly…you have no feelings. I’ve dehumanized you. No matter what you thought..the rules changed and I like the way she plays them.” omg…I hope I didn’t make a fool of myself here. It’s just been so hard getting this move together and I hoped he would say something, but I’d die if he did now. And the things that he must know I’d notice within the last week about his status and everything. He must think I’m crazy for not trying to contact him for answers. NC is the only thing I’ve learned. He wasn’t responding to me so…now…oh god, it’s his birthday.
I’m sorry…
I know Sam is having an ego w*** with his site, he even admits it somewhere on his site.
But I don’t care, because I used him (from a safe distance) to get all those answers without going into the cage again. I’ve been in the tiger’s cage (living with a physical and emotional abusive Narcissist) and there is no way I want this experience again.
@Jetred, I am really sorry about what happened to you, but at least you didn’t move in with him and are not depending on him.
@Anusha – the difference between shrimp/sardine and men is that we need food in order to survive. Men are an accessory and until I haven’t found the right one, I’ll go without. Because with an accessory you have the luxury of browsing, looking and searching with all the time in the world !!!
Thank you, Alice…
At least, my type…is now someone else’s “treasure” (pandora’s box)
@Butterfly – I read your narc extract with interest. I think many ideas apply to my ex! He said he “was obsessed with thoughts” of me and “addicted” to me in the first few months. He is very sensitive to criticism, and turns it around and criticizes anyone who he perceives has slighted him. He admits to not really knowing what his feelings are, and seemed to take “cues” from me as far as what to say feelings-wise (although he absolutely *hated* talking about feelings). And then on the other hand, he referred to himself as “a really emotional person” when someone was talking about something that reminded him how he felt as a child. So confusing. He cried at sad movies. Oh, and several women had “broken his heart”. But he always insisted he didn’t want to hurt me. In fact, he would say this over and over again. And then he would blow hot and cold, manage down my expectations, etc, etc. Is this sounding consistent with a narcissist to you?
I’m glad you decided *not* to contact your ex, whether you have forgiven him or not.
@Planet Jane – you were a “wonderful distraction” too, huh? Really good for the self esteem, isn’t it?
@Morning Coffee – please, please, now think of even more things you *don’t* miss about your ex!!!
@Tulipa – are you back to NC and healing again now?
@Jetred – wow, sounds like you have an AC there. That must hurt like hell what he did to you. Please, if you can, see it as a lucky escape. Perhaps later, when you are over him, someone else will come along who truly is compatible with you, who loves you for who you are, and who actually satisfies and delights you in bed!!!
@Tulipa-Im sorry you fell that way and thanks for the reminder of not breaking NC.I was thinking about unblocking my ex on MSN and what you said helped me to see that might not be a good idea.Dont beat yourself up over that,it is hard to be away from the EUM and we all slip sometimes.Forgive yourself and just go back to NC.
@jupiter- I totaly agree with you,that is how I see friendship too.I gave her a chance to change how she has been acting with the message I sent(because I think that she couldnt notice that I was upsed by just being distant).That will be my last try,if she doesnt change after that I think I will have to just stop being her friend.
@Alice-I see your point but to me men became something like food lately.I know NML says we shouldnt let them be our main focus but I think for me they kind of become that.Since my first failed relationship I fell like Im on a race trying to win a bf.And every time I fail is like the “hunger” for it just get bigger.Yes Im desesparate for a relationship I know.Im realy starting to think that I should change my way of thinking.
@Meant well that sounds EU to me but not everyone who is EU is a narcissist, it’s a complex and baffling thing to those not cursed with it. Was he desperately afraid of being alone/needed constant praise and reassurance/was he exploitative and used people for his own personal gain without any apparent understanding of the harm he caused/was he grandiose for no apparent reason/if you expressed an opinion which was innocuous did he occasionally fly off the handle in an absolutely terrible rage which literally made you feel like you’d been physically attacked instead of just verbally and emotionally? The list goes on and on and on … and like Alice says, best experienced at a distance and not personally.
I wasn’t knocking your view there Alice 🙂 Reading his site made a lot of sense – I just found it so very distasteful to see such blatent egotism after freeing myself from it (or so I thought, I still was stupid enough to fall for “I love you and I think I always will” which I now see was an Oscar performance triggered by my admission that I still loved him.
Knowing he is void inside, knowing that as time goes by he will get worse and worse, knowing that he is somehow getting by in his parasitic way and understanding (I *think*) his “time is running out” means to gain approval from his aging parents before they die … knowing that his already present depressive episodes are likely to become worse and worse – that he is likely to be worse than the hell on earth he already is …
That “Here’s your chance for an escape hatch …” (pause) “OK you had your chance now you’re stuck with me” has a whole new meaning, understanding his abandonment fears, his all-or-nothing thinking and how me innocently saying I thought the film of Tommy was a crap piece of cinema lead to a MASSIVE and disproportionate devaluation of me as a person where previously my opinion mattered to him so much he was nervous …
@ Tulipa – hugs and strength hon
@ Jetred – ouch. Just … ouch. So many parallels with ladies here and with my own understandings … just remember your own assessment of “Pandora’s Box”. What does she have that you don’t? She’s got a very unhappy life coming up …
Jetred — what this other woman has is a situation where she has put herself at the mercy of a man who thinks it is okay to do things like he just did to you. You have just dodged a bullet. Make that an artillery shell.
@butterfly – not to worry ;-)) I know exactly what you mean when you are saying – “me innocently saying I thought the film of Tommy was crap lead to a MASSIVE devaluation”.
I could give a hundred examples of me saying the most innocent things which led to the most horrendous outbursts from him.
You are right, they are getting worse with time. There is no cure either, because if you took the false self away in order to heal them, they would die. Because the true self is so horrible, they wouldn’t survive the truth. Sad really, but luckily not my problem anymore.
I have managed to free myself from him (took a long time) and I can now safely say I am healed from this experience. I had to get professional help, the experience was to overwhelming to deal with alone.
And now that I have also got rid of Assclown, my life is normal, happy and full of joy !!! ;-))
@Alice-I know just what you mean about expressing an opinion (after all, we all have them) and then having your words misinterpreted, devalued, etc-all because your thoughts did not agree with his. WTH?? Good point about them being afraid of their true selves-I believe they are seeking help from those that exhibit the qualities they would like to have but don’t.
Another good point about getting professional help. While this site maybe seen as a source of help, it can not duplicate the assistance of medical and/or psychological help. It is clear that some of the posters are in unbelievable pain, and have been suffering from this pain for years-after repeated incidents of becoming involved and spending emotional energy on people that do not value them. Thanks for sharing that you were only able to free yourself by getting help. (I am strongly considering this.) Glad that you are now healed from your experience-ladies, it can be done!!
@Butterfly – constant need for praise – yes, using people for his own gain – yes, but not so much the other things you mentioned.But, I think you just described my father AND my brother’s ex wife. Wow. I am off to do more research on NPD on the net.
@Penny – Yes, I agree. I am thinking of going the therapy route myself. I am tired of sabotaging my own happiness with these relationship choices.
Im considerating to do therapy too.I have done it for years and didnt progressed much (anyway sometimes I didnt do what they told me and when I was with my EUM I used it to figure him and the relationship out).But with all the information I have been getting now I fell this time it would realy help.Now I know what the problem is and what I need,while before I was kind of lost.I think could realy help me to develop a better relationship with myself and increase my self esteem.Im trying to do it by myself but I think with the help of a therapist can be much easier.
@Anusha – Perhaps the therapist you were working with was not a good match for you. (Although you admitted you did not always follow their advice.) Try to find another professional that is better suited to your needs and personality (not someone who will tell you just what you want to hear.) Perhaps at this stage you will be more receptive to accepting that you need assistance, and are willing to “do the work” this time to help yourself heal. I wish you peace.
I’ve got hells teeth chance of finding a therapist here who can speak English and who will know what is happening (just not that kind of country) but Penny yes I do agree, the pain was…
I’d actually been through it by the time I got to this site and started reading. I’ve been posting lol enough now, and there’s enough distance, that I feel ok to say what I am about to. With the sequence of events and the stupid situation I put myself in, then dealing with the aftermath of both people (I still do actually have some feelings for my ex but one, however they are not romantic feelings so much as I wish him well), plus expatriating myself partially out of impulse away from a death of self (my whole world caved in) and partially in search of some sort of closure with my dad (EUM I now realise, a closed book about his past during WWII and an enigma which now makes way more sense) – I was doing fine. Going back in the tiger’s cage is apt. Simply put – I wanted to die. I wasn’t having a cry for help moment, I actually started to put plans quietly into action and started to say goodbyes.
Someone realised this and intervened at the right moment. However … and here’s me saying I still wish my ex-but-one well … I did tell him how I felt and his response to knowing about my pain was “Well if you kill yourself I am not going to feel bad about it, you chose to leave”.
Hmmm. Maybe I shouldn’t even wish him well? I can laugh now, but there was a long dark night of the soul for quite a while. This site helped enormously in that I could see patterns and other people having similar experiences which made me think it wasn’t me being mad, bad or evil.
Doing the work is definitely the thing though. Having time alone is actually helping, having short to mid term goals, dreams and aspirations which rely only on what I do, how much effort I make etc. After so many years, from being so very independent minded to being a doormat zombie (yes I can admit it to myself now what I allowed to happen) co-dependant it is both painful and wonderful to find that I can do what I please now. My credo remains that I shouldn’t cause anyone harm in the persuit of my desires: I include myself in that too.
Now what pains me is seeing you lot tear yourself into pieces over these men who really are NOTHING. They’re nothing. Nothing.
Nothing.
Stay strong ladies. Like many have said, I do wish I could meet you.
@Butterfly
Why beat yourself over the fact that you wished someone well? As a member of the human race,we should all want the best for each other. Because your AC was unable to decently acknowledge your parting words and wishes to him does NOT mean that you are a bad person or at fault. His comments to you were undoubtedly hurtful (anyone expressing thoughts of ending her own life ought to send off serious alarm bells to someone!) and the fact that he couldn’t or wouldn’t get what you were trying to communicate to him is not your fault-nor it is your problem. I believe that your wishing him well was a huge part of your own healing, whether you realize that or not. People who are in touch with their own emotions and really care about someone (even if you were treated badly by that person) don’t help themselves by wishing bad things to happen to the other party. By doing that, you are taking valuable time and energy that you could be using on yourself, and not someone that does not give two damns about you.
I broke the NC rule (although our situation was a little different than many of those ones I have seen described here) but it helped me tremendously. I told him what I thought of his behavior and told him that his EA traits were probably the biggest problem in our relationship-not our political differences as he blamed. (He admitted he had major emotional struggles in his last communication to me.) In the end, I wished him well, and told him I hoped he could find what he was seeking-I really meant it. How does him not getting what he wants (since it was not me) benefit me? It doesn’t. This does not mean that it still does not hurt-it does. However, it would have hurt much more later had we gotten married, and as I said before, been afraid to open my mouth in my own house. I thank God I was spared that!! Now I am not perfect, so I would be lying if I said I didn’t want him to feel at least of little of the pain I’m feeling. However, it is up to him to “do the work” on his own emotional and communication limitations-not me. If he never gets it, well, too bad for him. Same for your guy-if never gets it, too bad for him. Thank God someone in your life realized you were in terrible pain and intervened!! You seem to have made tremendous strides in your attempt to heal-congratulations and I wish your peace on your journey!
@Skyscraper – “Jetred — what this other woman has is a situation where she has put herself at the mercy of a man who thinks it is okay to do things like he just did to you.”
Jetred – when I read your post, my heart so went out to you. I’m in a similar situation of being quickly replaced by someone else – a friend! And right in front of me really. It hurts so much. I’m so sorry for what you’re going through. It’s such a shame. And no way you could have foreseen it…now. Hindsight is 20/20, and will hopefully be useful to you in future relationships. 🙁
It is true what Skycraper says though. Who the OW does have is a man who is irresponsible, inconsiderate, insensitive, self-centered, fickle, impulsive and lacks real depth in himself and his relationships. I know it hurts, but good thing it’s not you!
Luvs.
Yesterday WAS my xeum’s B-day. I didn’t contact him at all, and really felt quite peaceful about it. I was awoken by a text from him this morning however that said, “Hope all is well. Don’t be a stranger.” I imagine he was expecting some kind of Birthday message from me. Hmm. I’m tired.
And, last night I got a blocked “Private Call.” I know he does this – and I’ve received a few here and there over the past few weeks. I kind of wonder if it didn’t work out the way he thought it would with this other girl – it never really does. Or maybe he is just really interested in staying a kind of “friends.” I don’t really know what to do…if I should text him back, just something mundane.
@PlanetJane – “I don’t really know what to do…if I should text him back, just something mundane.”
I think it depends on how committed you are to healing. These Boys are a distraction from our true purpose: To love ourselves and To live our Best lives. This requires our surrounding ourselves with positive people who both love and support us: EUs and A/Cs need not apply.
It’s been 60 days N/C for me. Some days are better than others. I don’t know what state of mind i will be in when or if he attempts to make contact with me. But i have to have faith that if i am doing my self-esteem homework in the interim, I will make the decision that best promotes my healing.
When given the option – Choose Life. Because being tide up with an EU and his no-value-adding antics aint living.
Butterfly – Thanks for the info on Narcissism. I’m such a (horribly 😉 ) feeling person, Narcissism is a very foreign idea. But my xeum, whenever we had “talks” NEVER knew how he felt about anything. He literally said, constantly, “I just don’t know how I feel” and “I haven’t really thought about it.” Except to feel “bad” about how I was feeling and want to get me out of my funk and back to happy/nice-nice – and IN HIS BED. Come to think of it, my LTR never knew how he felt either – hadn’t thought about it – and was focussed on getting me back to “happy”. I always chalked it up to me being an emotional woman, i.e. crazy, and them being “dudes.” 🙂 Now I’ll chalk it up to them being EUM. Each in their own ways and to different degrees.
I’m sorry if your x was a Narc. I hope I never come in contact with one…they sound pretty scary…and sad.
As for your forgiveness of your xeum, please don’t contact him to let him know! You don’t have to share it with him. Keep it for yourself – it’s something good that you can hold. He doesn’t deserve it! Best. Luvs.
@PlanetJane- Keep in mind that the EUMs contact us for ego stroke,maybe he is just missing his since you didnt wish him happy birthday.I didnt contact my ex on his birthday too and yes I felt a litle unsure and guilty about that but now I know was the best thing for myself.You have to think what is best for YOU not for him.If texting him wont make you fell good or bother your healing dont do it.
@Penny- Thanks for your coment.I thought about that too but I been trough 3 or 4 diferent therapists and had the same problem so that is why I think maybe was me not working on my issues the right way.I had no clue what was wrong by then,I just knew that my relationships werent working and that I was unhappy.But now I do know what is causing that and what I need to do to fix it,I think I will realy progress.
@Penny – I should have said that my wondering if I shouldn’t wish him well was rhetorical 🙂 I still do, because I absolutely believe that what goes around comes around – this same guy also actively wished me to fail and “die horribly” in my new home town, he had in the past screamed at me that he wanted me to die of cancer (and I consoled him) and when I came out here for the interview he called me the night before it in a rage, very incoherent telling me not to ever talk to him, then hanging up, then calling me back to threaten me and tell me to stop bothering him … and the clincher was threatening to kill me if I ever went back to the UK (which I just was calm about and said was a criminal offence even to say it) – when that didn’t work (because after all this time with him I was totally numb to his rages) he threatened to hunt down and kill my elderly mother (who is quite ill).
I’ll still wish him well, because he needs all the help he can get. This isn’t my recent ex, it’s the one before him – I am going to go NC other than for practical reasons because I am just so much happier without him. Thank you for your kind words and your encouragement, I can sense at least some of the progress but I am aware that one wrong word from the recent ex (i.e. anything) will open up a wound. Speaking of …
@Planet Jane = PJ girl DON’T DO IT. Please please please just delete the text and delete the call record if you can. That text was because you didn’t wish him a happy birthday and he’s used to yanking your chain. Great, let him yank (sounds like he yanks something on a regular basis) and get no resistance cos there’s nothing there instead of no resistance cos you went trotting back. I’m counting on YOU, and so are all the other ladies here and who will come here, to throw that sentiment back at me if I ever get contacted.
Re Narcs – they are scary, frankly. The best advice is to stay the hell away from them.
OK, well I have his birthday coming up and our anniversary not long after it. I survived the day he asked me to be with him, I will definitely survive something as trivial as his birthday. I am going to buy him what he bought me.
NOTHING!!!!!
In other news, there is a guy I am interested in who is very different to my usual type, seems he is also interested in me. Not thinking anything about this at all but it’s very clear that he has a lot of integrity. We’ll see, to be honest I am happy alone at the moment and I was definitely not looking but isn’t that when we tend to find?
@ Anusha – this sounds far more positive, wonderful 🙂 Wishing you all the best.
@Nene “an EU and his no-value-adding antics aint living.” AMEN!!!!!
@ Meant – yep educate yourself but be discriminate in what you apply to who. Narcs are very distinctive once you know – they just are “off” somehow. Some narcissism is healthy, in fact a touch of it wouldn’t go amiss with many of us 🙂
@Butterfly
Glad you are making progress-yes you are right, he needs all the help he can get! Anyone that threatens you or wishes that you would contract a terminal illness and/or threaten you and/or family has major mental problems. No way you can fix any of that!! You are so lucky that fool is out of your life.No one should be in contact with anyone that threatened them! Just keep doing what you are doing-it is clearly not done in one step, but you seem well on your way.
My guy’s birthday is next week, and I was struggling whether or not to send him a happy birthday. Not!! Considering that he sent me a card, and could not even take the trouble to make a phone call to me on my birthday last month-he does not deserve any acts of kindness from me.
@Nene-love the “no-value adding antics.”
lol @ sent me a card
I mean nothing … not this year … not last year when he was running hit (“i really dropped the ball on this one”). Steel yourself for a text tho, delete it unread!
I can’t really recommend therapy enough if, as in my case, you had a pretty dysfunctional upbringing.
I spent 35 years knowing that I probably needed professional help but it wasn’t till the AC did his 18o degree spin that I fell apart and went for help. Best thing that ever happened to me and I wish I’d done it in my 20’s instead of my 40’s.
@ butterfly, like you I in a different country where therapy is not very easy to come by, it’s still very Catholic here and the first therapist I saw tried to give me a book on religion after our first session! I’d made it clear that I am not religious so needless to say that was also the last session for me, then I found a wonderful man who’d trained abroad. How long before you leave wherever you are?
At least nine months IF I want to go. I love it here but … it’s a very Catholic country (gets paranoid that we are neighbours!!).
@Butterfly – the more I read, the more I see my dad is a narc!!!!! Thanks so much for posting the info, which then led me to research further. It’s quite an education I’m getting here. I’m also sorry to hear about the depths of despair you have experienced, and happy for you that you had a real friend to help you though it.
@ Penny, Anusha, sadthing, et al – thanks for your frank discussion about therapy. I feel I’m getting closer to the point of making that call and admitting professional help would be beneficial for me. I *did* grow up in a dysfunctional environment – alcoholic (possibly narcissistic) father, parental conflict (Mum deeply religious, dad an atheist), etc, etc.
@PlanetJane — “Yesterday WAS my xeum’s B-day. I didn’t contact him at all, and really felt quite peaceful about it. I was awoken by a text from him this morning however that said, ‘Hope all is well. Don’t be a stranger.’ I imagine he was expecting some kind of Birthday message from me. Hmm.” AND “Or maybe he is just really interested in staying a kind of ‘friends.’ I don’t really know what to do…if I should text him back, just something mundane.”
DO NOT CONTACT HIM!! He’s throwing out “BAIT” to hook you into his harem of fallback girl(s)! Don’t fall for it!! If this man’s interest in you was genuine, he’d stop at nothing to let you know!! Do not respond unless this man comes back and clearly offers you the kind of relationship that YOU want and deserve. And even then, only accept his offer if you’re sure that he’s fully changed (highly unlikely). His text is nothing more than toying with you!! It’s a crumb and it is crap!! He knows exactly what he’s doing and he’s expecting you to come a runnin’ and then he’ll laugh at how easy you are. By not responding you are teaching him to respect you and your boundaries!! DON’T RESPOND!! And trust me, when he doesn’t hear back there’ll likely be another attempt so be prepared!!
@Serena-” It’s a crumb and it is crap!!”
I like it. That was well said.
@JetRed – OMGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!! I can’t believe this!!! WHAT A BASTARD!!!!! I’m freakin’ MAD from reading your story!!! What a LOW LIFE SCUM!!!! I can’t even imagine your pain, totally broke my heart;( How are you holding up today? How long since NC? Thanks for sharing…please continue to unleash all those excess thoughts, blunt honesty is therapy. Look at it in reverse: He was also cheating on HER cuz all those time he was also with you. Thus she didn’t get the gem, she got the garbage. Those type of men should be super easy to get over…you’re too good for that scumbag!!!
@Planet Jane – our exes sound like they could be twins! Not knowing how they feel about anything, no commitment after months together, their “wonderful distraction” description of us, etc, etc.
I am urging you to take the advice you offered to Butterfly: “please don’t contact him to let him know!” After my experience with the “brief contact” with my ex a couple days ago, I can now say with experience “it ain’t worth it” I agree with Serena – it’s a crumb and he is a d*ck (oops, changed her quote a little, sorry)
“I don’t know what I waaaaant!” was another one.
@Butterfly – forgot to mention, it was an e-card-not even a “real” paper card sent through the mail.
Ugh. I know you guys are probably right. I don’t even really know what to say to that text…it’s so vague and lame…and pretty much BS after all we’ve…I’ve been through! I can’t ever go back to the way things were with him, and that happy, easy-going me.
But I just can’t help but feel GUILTY. I don’t want to be the jerk that blows him off. But I don’t want to be the chump either. Damn it.
It’s so funny, I think it was yesterday that I said I wanted contact so I could slam the door in his face! Ha ha. What a big talker I am huh? 😀
And I also keep thinking: Oh, our situation is different. We can be friends. But EVERY time he disappears, when he comes back…EVERY time, I’ve said: Ok, we’ll just be friends. And EVERY time – it’s taken a while – but he’s slowly crept back in, to my mind, my heart and my bed. Ands he’s come to depend on me emotionally, and suck my blood! I really sometimes think of him as a fat spider.
I SWORE this would be the last time. And while I was going through this pain, I cursed myself for not ending it sooner, before he f*^%ed my friend right under my nose. What else does he have to do? How much worse can it get?
You guys are right. You’re right. You’re right. How can I be friends with someone I could never trust, who doesn’t value me, and whose character I pretty much despise?
Ugh. Wish me luck. Send me strength.
Meant To Be Happy – I know huh? Thankfully mine isn’t MM, so at least they’re not the same person 🙂 Phew.
You can’t be friends.
Would you be friends with the Ebola virus?
Who CARES what he thinks?
xx
I’m starting to fully realize what a victim I’ve allowed myself to be. I’m afraid of him emotionally. I’m afraid of his advances into my life. I feel powerless. A spider? Wow. I feel emotionally violated and raped. What is this self-destructiveness? This urge to give everything, this sacrifice?
I’m not going to text him back. And it’s not nearly as fun as I thought it would be. It’s hard flipping work. But I’m gonna claw my way out of this hole…this web. Hah.
YAY!!! Hugs for PJ!
@Planet Jane – “And EVERY time – it’s taken a while – but he’s slowly crept back in, to my mind, my heart and my bed. Ands he’s come to depend on me emotionally, and suck my blood! I really sometimes think of him as a fat spider.”
I’m in the same movie you are – this boomerang thing, ending back in his bed, with him sucking the life out of me – twice before. I told him, if I broke up with him a third time, that’s it – no more chances. And this is the third time. I’m thinking of him as a slimy snake now – maybe the devil himself in the Garden of Eden. Don’t wanna eat that fruit NO MORE. Let’s be rid of these lower life forms once and for all!!!
@PlanetJane — “I’m not going to text him back. And it’s not nearly as fun as I thought it would be. It’s hard flipping work. But I’m gonna claw my way out of this hole…this web. Hah.”
EXCELLENT!! Think of it this way, by NOT responding YOU’RE taking control of the relationship, instead of letting the relationship control you!! In other words, by not responding, YOU have the power in the relationship!!
Also, you CANNOT be friends!! You can’t because you want him as more than a friend and you’re just setting yourself up for feeling continual rejection in the relationship. He KNOWS you want him more and he will USE your friendship, take what he wants and leave you in pieces. Is this the kind of friend you want??
@Butterfly — “’I don’t know what I waaaaant!’†was another one.”
Although mine didn’t say this, the constant flip-flapping says it all!! Even on his surprise visit he said, “I don’t know if letting you go is the right thing to do.” Geeeeeeezzzzz!! Get a grip!! Why does he presume that he still has me to let go of??!! I really think his visit was to try to keep me as an option for when HE decides. As NML says, the relationship is always on THEIR terms!! Showing up after 5 weeks NC post breakup with nothing more to offer than the same ole swiss cheese is pretty ballsy wouldn’t you say??!! And. . . it triggered all those old feelings and yearnings and put my head into a spin regarding the relationship potential of, “yes, because of this, no because of that, yes, no, yes, no, yes, no, yes, no . . . ” It made me think if this is what they go through in their head, I’m glad I don’t live in their head!! I’m just trying to put it all out of my head as much as possible. Two things he said to me were interesting and have me wondering where he’s coming from. One was, “You’re not telling me everything.” The other was, “You’re hiding.” I have NO IDEA of where those two ideas are coming from!! I don’t know what kind of mystery of me he’s concocted that I’m holding back and hiding. I asked him what he meant by both statements and he didn’t answer. I’d love to know what he thinks but I may never know. Can anyone make sense out of that??
@PlanetJane- Just answer me something,the kind of friendship that he is ofering you is what you want? When I was deciding if I should be friends with my ex I took in consideration what he ofered me:a text after 2 months NC saying “congratulations for your team winning”.That for me is being friends? No,being friends is asking how Im,asking what Im doing,being there for me on the good and bad times.He did any of those things for me? NO.So he wasnt realy being a friend.You think your ex is doing what it takes to be a friend in your opinion? I think by that you can decide if is worth or not to be his friend.
My friend replied my message,she said she is realy sorry for how I fell and that she will try harder.Im pretty happy that I wont be losing her friendship cause I realy like her 🙂 It also was a personal improvement,it was my first time puting boundaries.I always been afraid to let people know when Im upsed and that end up scaring them away,so I usualy just keep it to myself.That was the first time I let it out and said exactaly how I fell.Im happy I could do it and the result was a good one,I guess that Im making progress on improving myself 🙂
Well, when I came here I stayed with a friend. A gay friend. Not just a little bit gay, gayer than twenty gay mushrooms on a picnic. It became clear he thought I had had sex with this friend (whom he also knows and he knows VERY well is as gay as a box of frogs).
I described the thought of me having sex with this friend (whom I think of as a SISTER more than anything, and vice versa) as being “as wrong as the concept of having sex with the colour green”.
Thing is, they think everyone else thinks like they do, “feel” (in as much as they do feel) like they do so yeah of course they can’t trust you. They only have themselves as a frame of reference and they are themselves untrustworthy. Hiding? Well that doesn’t need explaining surely.
So there you go. Only my thoughts based on observation and reading up but if you really need to pin some sense into it you will NEVER get it from him, so this is as good as anything else to give you some closure (and that’s the important part who cares about him?).
Night night xx
Oh btw Serena = these things he said and did? “Splitting” and “Projection”.
@Butterfly – Sorry i made you gag last night lol. It was midnight (I’m in the U.S.) & was really missing him and all those sappy thoughts came flooding out. Feel free to yank me back to reality when i’m lost in La La Land;)
@Dancefire – Still nostalgic/sobbing ? *huggiez* want my sleeves? (Shrimps, sardines, squids, and all the yummy seafoods are all for sampling …if one can refrain from getting too attached *so hard for us women not to*)
@PlanetJane- Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo…..did u text back??????????????? What’s the verdict? Am curious!!!!:)
OK tonight let me focus on things I DON’T miss about the online ex (as someone suggested *great idea!*)….
Uuuuhhhhh….mmmmm….aawww geezeee….so lame…can’t even think of anything…I’m still sooooooo in love with him!!! I can’t switch off my feelings in 2 weeks;( Anyone else here still in love with their ex’s????
@Morning Coffee – that was me wanting you to think of what you don;t miss:
how about:
wondering what he’s like to be with in person – would the sparks still be there?
wondering what your daughter would think of him, and if he would be a good father if he did finally have a child of his own (that he calls a funky name lol)
wishing he would reply to your snail mail
wondering how many other people he talks to online, and if he’s not getting back to you because someone else is stroking his ego
wondering why he won’t put his money where his mouth is and come and visit you.
Sorry to be negative, but just trying to be balanced here, to offset those fantasy things you’re dreaming of……
oh, and you were asking about our stories – mine is under personal happiness part 2, under the name notmeanttobe, beginning of July
have a great night Morning Coffee – stay strong!!!
Hey Morning Coffee – I haven’t texted back. It’s about 8:30pm here. Although I confess I’ve gone to my phone a few times – but I’ve put it down. I’ve decided that “Don’t be a stranger” just doesn’t warrant a response. 😉
You ladies are wonderful…
I’ve not had the greatest day in my life today, but I didn’t contact him. I just couldn’t figure any way to do so without looking foolish. I actually think it is out of fear. Fear that he will turn it around on me and finally tell me to get lost, hurting me once again and tell me everything I don’t want to know. He’s openly excited about having her in his life, saying it online and showing it by inviting her to just move after losing her job into his home. They are even sharing a swinging relationship on a sex site I never mentioned that I knew he was a member of. I assumed that was in his past. Oh god…I’m finding that I wasn’t as exciting as he would have liked…all the fantasies he can have with her. I believed that we were looking for the same comfort and passion…that we were meeting at a time where we’d both been through the wringer…but, obviously, I was taking it too slow. My god, she lost her job and the next thing, she’s moving from another state in with him. Someone that I tried to respect his sense of privacy and “issues with trust”. And she’s in there…and now bragging about him not knowing how to satisfy certain needs but she’s “bi-curious”.
I was a fool…looking to give him the most valuable gift I had…myself, my love, my loyalty. What is happening in the world? What is it that makes people who are supposed to be intimate, want just the fancy fantasy? Or am I so naive that I don’t see couples maintain their relationships by sex play with others. Oh…I’m sunk.
I can’t believe I’m saying these things…I’ve got to never go to that site again. I’m torturing myself by looking at this stuff. It’s almost like he knows I’m looking at it…when in reality, he probably never thinks of me at all or what I’m doing, or how I’m getting along. Damn…
Thanks again, ladies for understanding. I really dislike being in this pathetic state. I got through 2 months of NC, but I think I believed he would contact me…but nothing. Nothing at all…dodged the bullet, but still bleeding.
@ Jetred I will reply when I get home from work, I think I have a perspective that might help you with this. In the meanwhile stop looking. Please.
Oh yes and ione more thing – Morning Coffee, again, get a grip. What you are saying is actually quite painful to other people, asking if they are still in love with their exes. NO they are deluded that they are and they are trying to recover. It sounds like this guy got sick of YOUR EU behaviour from other things you have said, and now you have a wonderful painful chance to stop being that hurtful person and to become someone tuly giving and loving but you have to accept responsibility for your own words and deeds. Looking for validation in this way makes me feel that you probably would benefit from therapy – and support can be given here, therapy can’t. Harsh as this sounds …
@ Planet Jane – “And EVERY time – it’s taken a while – but he’s slowly crept back in, to my mind, my heart and my bed. â€
Boundaries, dear heart, boundaries. We can have acquaintances, family, co-workers, and friends – and not think of them in intimate terms. We should be very particular that anyone we allow intimacies with will respect us, that we respect them for their character and honor. Not because sex is something mystical (it is!), but because we engage our selves and our feelings of home and belonging and nurturing and protectiveness when we are intimate with someone – when there is sex or not.
It seems that practicing different “hats” or roles to play with the people in your life is in order. There is the acquaintance role – when someone isn’t a stranger, but you don’t know them well enough to be assured of their character. There is the friend role, where you have verified their character is acceptable, that you are interested in their welfare, that trading tasks and time together is rewarding for you. The intimate and family role is reserved for trusted family, and for the ones you wish to share lives with at some level.
If I think of the heart as a castle or fortress, then acquaintances are those I wave to over the defending wall, or I assign a guard to escort them inside the fortress. Friends can visit me in the castle, and usually won’t need an escort. I want my partner to live inside my fortress, sharing the security and comfort.
The problem with failures of character – lies, cheating, disappearing, stealing, broken promises – is that we feel defensive, assign guards to keep them from breaking “the peace” of our “fortress”. They aren’t really more than acquaintances, unless we *grant them privileges again”.
PlanetJane, discipline is the will to complete a task. When he is trying to make nice again, discipline is what keeps you looking at who he is, and whether you dare trust his sweet words (or looks, or roving hands, etc.).
This guy is *not* the last guy on earth. Losing him doesn’t mean that you must live unhappily the rest of your life – but letting him stay near you *will* prevent a good man from seeing you, and will keep you from noticing a good man. Essentially you have to leave the live that holds this bozo behind, before you will find a happier life. The choice is whether you choose to leave this shadow world on your own, and choose who you will be, or wait for an even more intense calamity to take that control and choice out of your hands.
Disrespect will always get worse, until someone gets hurt, unless confronted. We know this guy doesn’t hold to honor or truth; confrontation hasn’t helped yet. It seems the only path to survival here, is to run away.
Luck.
Thanks everybody for your support! It’s really helped me today to have your words in the back of my mind…cuz I know when I tell you all the same that I MEAN it, and I wish the best for you!
Thanks Brad K for your words of wisdom, I’m gonna print your post, and read it regularly 🙂 You were so right on so many points.
@ jetred – “dodged the bullet, but still bleeding.” Well then, it must be a flesh wound. It will heal.
I’m so sorry jetred. I know how you feel. I am SO ashamed to say this, but my xeum went through 4 other women in the 2 years I’ve known him – two of them I knew personally. Oh yes, I am a raging fbg. He lied about them all, disappeared, and lied again. But deep down…or not so deep, I knew the truth. And it was absolute torture. I cannot even say that with enough emphasis…TORTURE. I imagined SO many ways that they were better for him, or just better than I was. I imagined that he was in LOVE with each of them…the way I imagined he was in LOVE with me in the beginning. I imagined them getting married and having children, and being blissful soul-mates for the rest of their lives. I imagined that somehow, each woman held the magic key to open his heart that I was somehow lacking. But that was MY dream, not HIS – and as usual I projected it onto him…and the other women as well. And you know what? 3 of them now (that I know of) have gone NC with him…and me too (woohoo)!
But it’s your dream you’re seeing, laid over their heads. The reality of the situation, it seems, is that they barely know each other, are highly sexually and superficially attracted to each other, and are moving WAY too fast to develop a relationship based on anything real. In my opinion, if that kind of relationship works for them, they’ve got a whole lot of work to do, but they’re also NOT people that you, jetred, really want to be involved with. Different values. Right?
@Brad K – “The choice is whether you choose to leave this shadow world on your own, and choose who you will be, or wait for an even more intense calamity to take that control and choice out of your hands.”
So true. I haven’t wanted, or been able to make an active choice, and I’ve been waiting for him to leave or to do something horrible. SO foolish! I got what I wished for. 🙁
“We know this guy doesn’t hold to honor or truth; confrontation hasn’t helped yet. It seems the only path to survival here, is to run away.”
Thank you!!
@PlanetJane…thank you for the comment. You are so right…it’s rather eery, actually. (nervous laugh…where do those come from? LOL) I can’t even guess how many women he went through. He had over 400 contacts on that site…I was stunned, but, of course…I found that out during a separation and figured, “What a jerk” and just added it to the insult of being misled by him.. Then he appeared again. (I’m a classic fbg, I suppose) I was always reluctant to mention my feelings of worry to him in the early part of the “whateva this was” , because I thought, “he made me no specific promises” and I’m going to not push and allow him to learn to trust again. (he’s divorced) So it was me always putting the effort in.
I am guilty of thinking of her as better for him. I compared myself to her…being a rather tall woman and she being around 5 ft…I figured she was more feminine. She has numerous hobbies…(my sister says she’s a fraud, but how can she know that and what does it matter?…he is too) She in her profile says she’s looking for a LTR that would lead to marriage…so naturally, I marveled at the fact she just came out with it…and I believed I should go slow. “Wow..she’s brave.” I thought. She practices a healthy lifestyle…I’m trying to lose weight. She is more natural…and I wear makeup and have my hair straightened. She’s very confident and so is he. Down right arrogant in some areas, but he seemed to be successful and independent.
Ya know, when you write this stuff down…it does come more freely and I do see how much healing I need. I went into this not fully healed from a lifetime of disappointment or disillusionment. That’s why I think I was attempting to not let bad habits of jealousy and confrontation creep into this. This was gonna be a pure and honest chance. What did I know? I didn’t even think about having different values than he, until you just said it. I thought they were the same, and honestly…I went to certain points with him that I would have hesitated to go to before. The role play…and even depths of name calling that were the most negative part of our “thing”. I told him, I wouldn’t be called the one name he seemed to need to call me. That was only after allowing it one time. Why didn’t I say it right away? That’s some of the things that I must explore about my own responsibility in this. I even thought…she would run if he tried that with her…for what? So he can fall back to me and mistreat me. I need an intervention…dang.
@Butterfly…Uhm…you’re not gonna hit me are ya? 🙂
You’ll have to excuse my goofy manner…it’s the way I deal with nervousness and stress. It can be annoying some times. Sorry.
OMG why are you apologising to me of all people??!!!
No, the reason why I said I’d come back to it is that I was going to work – I have a break atm, then I will be able to answer properly later today. I see some parallels, and even more so now you’ve mentioned “role play and name calling” …
You are having an intervention, of the best kind: your own!
I don’t ever mean to be snippy but I feel there is a danger for us all to focus on him him him him and people are still doing it here (self included at times so I am not preaching, rather trying to change my behaviour). It is our doing that these men find us and prey on us, we have the power to fix it. No one else.
I also think that there is too much tendancy towards ignoring the very real fact that WOMEN can also be EUW/Assclownettes/Narcs. Yes, rarer, but they exist and they need help just as much as the guys. That extract I posted earlier about being an expert actress was that – actress not actor.
Anyway I don’t want people scared of me, I am not nasty!!
I can only recommend professional help, but the key is to find the RIGHT professional help for you. Look at it this way – if you have a stomach ache or the flue you go to the doctor.
If you have an emotional or psychological problem why not seek help for that either ?
I actually woke up this morning feeling sorry for my Assclown. He lives in a sh***ty apartment, has very shallow friends, does not much else than sitting in the pub and at the weekend gets absolutely legless. He is underachieving in his job and therefore has not much money.
Very sad, but I will keep this feeling to myself and won’t contact him, because it is his choice to live like this.
I also know that feeling sorry is part of the grieving process. Very soon I will have been through all the grieving stages (denial, anger, sadness etc) and then I will be completely free.
Well,my type is definitely “a**hole” and the way I feel my name should be the same!!!
I have had a complete relapse-he persistently contacted me,and I broke down,responding to the desperation in his tone (yes,he was desperate to borrow money!).Of course he flattered me,we ended up I am ashamed to say having phone sex…and then he told me he was planning to marry his new lady in December and he needed to be “faithful” to her,so goodbye to me again!
Yes,you can all let me have it….,after all I’ve learnt from this site.I was foolishly flattered,I knew what he was,but I fell for it all over again.Like an alcoholic having the first drink.I feel ashamed,foolish,rejected…and all the good work I had done on myself has just gone down the drain.I have to start working through everything again AND this time I only have myself to blame because I was armed with the knowledge of who he is.I have very little respect for myself at the moment,because I knew exactly what “type” he was,and yet somewhere inside of me,I thought that just maybe he had changed.I never lent him the money,though.
Thank god for that. So very sorry to hear you had to go through all this again tho sweetheart. Don’t beat yourself up – so very many of us would do the same thing I’m sure.
Remember this is a conman. What he says to you is probably also total bollocks, he will be no more faithful to her than he was to you … does she definitely even exist?
serena,
it’s called projecting. he would do this to me. i had evil secrets, i lied, i cheated. um…..i never did any of these things – ever & he knew it. they are projecting their feelings onto you. weirdo-o-rama!
Is it okay for me to say that I’m feeling pretty good today? I wanted to share this because I was unexpectedly melancholy for my ex A/C earlier this week. I went ahead and read some old emails (yes I still have them) However, I had deleted all the old text messages if that counts for anything.
In the end…I breathed through it…spent time with family, had dinner with friends, tweaked my diet and I’m feeling pretty perky today.
@Eyes Wide Open – Don’t be ashamed.
The last conversation I had with my ex A/C was not so different that yours: Reminiscing, promises to meet up (in Vegas – Ugh!), phone sex, and so-long sucker…I haven’t heard from him since. I felt as though I’d been Pantst!
It’s not how we fall, it’s how we get back up. This has been a learning process for all of us. These are new tools that NML is handing us and we are all still trying find our bearings.
I get it! “Legless” = drunk! I was, like, how are all these fbgs hooking up with legless men..how odd…and what are the odds!? Ha ha. 😀
Sorry to you ladies who fell off the wagon and had some contact…and phone sex no less! And then another walk-away/disappearing act! OUCH. How long are we going to continue to hurt ourselves? 🙁 Tomorrow will be better.
Nope Nene it’s great to hear it 🙂
Tomorrow will be better. It might feel crap but the truth is that it WILL be better!
@ Eyes Wide Open,
I think it was Thomas A. Edison, that described the 999 failed attempts to make a working light bulbs as “successfully discovering one more way that doesn’t work” or something like that.
You found out, that for you, answering his messages doesn’t work.
Somehow, from somewhere, NML came up with the No Contact Rules. (https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/the-no-contact-rule/, and others) NC is brilliant. At the time when you realize you have given all control of your life, your love, your heart, and your will to someone unsuitable – NC is an act of power. With No Contact you make a choice. With NC you choose to end, forever, the chance that a destructive relationship will harm you any more, and take control over one source of pain in your life. With NC you provide a healing space, a time and frame of mind to examine what you have done, what you want, and what changes will keep bozos like the last one from darkening your door again.
But No Contact means No Contact. That is, you block his phone so he cannot make yours ring. Remember – you decided to end the relationship, to live your life without his turmoil and abuse in it. You no longer care if he could change (he won’t!), you no longer care if you made any mistakes (probably you did. Deal with it.). He has abused your trust and your respect; your own honor demands that you block him from your life. NC lets you feel the grief and regrets of losing someone important in your life, without risking letting the bozo track across your heart again.
No Contact means just that. When you find yourself thinking of him – be ready to think of something else. Laundry, math functions, your grandmother’s birthday, meal plans for the next week, inviting friends or neighbors a couple times a week for shared meals. You need to block his emails – filter them so they get marked “read”, and moved to “trash” before you know they arrived. Same with IM, with text messages – block them all. Don’t go to places where he hangs out. Avoid the street where he lives. Contact is when you see or know that he tried to contact you, not just whether you talked back. Probably the most damage happens when you know he called, or find his voice message – you have already reacted, already been hurt, had the wounds reopened. Actually letting him know you got the message is almost nothing after that.
Luck.
@Butterfly – Thanks for the response.
The ‘Pantst’ incident happened nearly 60 days ago. The lapsed time is important because NC was usually breached by one of us at the 30 day mark. So our pattern has been broken. Life without him simply better. He and his baggage were such a burden. At the time i assumed that was the price for unconditional love. Any efforts of unconditional love are now focused on myself.
60 days NC – Yipee!
@Nene – “The lapsed time is important because NC was usually breached by one of us at the 30 day mark. So our pattern has been broken.”
Yay Nene! I broke my pattern as well – 50 days NC! YAY.
“Life without him simply better. He and his baggage were such a burden. At the time i assumed that was the price for unconditional love. Any efforts of unconditional love are now focused on myself.”
So, so true!
And thanks Butterfly, and I think it was Serena, and others for info on Narcissism – any other sites or info you have would be greatly appreciated. As I’m reading, it suddenly hit me that my step-mother of 8 years was Narc. I always knew, even as a child that there was something deeply wrong with and very different about her. Wow. It may explain why I’m attracted to parnters w/Narc tendencies. I would encourage anyone to do Family of Origin work! It is one of the things that will truly contribute to our healing.
Luv.
@JetRed – I wish I can just HUG you!!! I feel so bad, I wish I can grab your hand, march you to their front door, bang on it until it opens and let you say every single words you’ve been longing to say and when you’re done slam the door shut and leave! (And go have a margarita and laugh lol). Never let the ex, the other, or anyone make you feel inferior – NEVER!!! From today on, JetRed will adopt a different outlook – you bow down to NO ONE!!! (Tell them I say so! If they have a problem, come look for me!;) Don’t torment yourself being afraid of what he’ll think – who cares what he thinks!!! If you wanna call, go ahead, call him, gag/spit it all out in his face, then toss your hair back and walk away! Inside he’s just a scared insecure human being!! And this sex site thing….if you wanna check it out, go right ahead! Don’t be afraid that he’ll know – so what?! – you do whatever, he has no control over you!! Once you have the strength to proceed with the “I don’t give a hoot, I’ll do whatever I want, who gives a shit what you think!” attitude, their power over you is lose, gone, zilch, zap, zero!!!!
@Butterfly – “What you are saying is actually quite painful to other people, asking if they are still in love with their exes. NO they are deluded that they are and they are trying to recover. It sounds like this guy got sick of YOUR EU behaviour…”….Sorry I had no idea my comment was hurtful to anyone- forgive me. I was only sharing my own little experience. He got sick of my EU behavior? ME????? I’m the EU???? Am I?;(;(;( BTW, I read your story…you’re VERY STRONG & COURAGEOUS to walk away. I can only imagine a fraction of the pain you’re going through. I was in a similar situation once…eons ago/long story. And no u’re not harsh, I like that we’re able to speak freely in here without being judged. Perhaps I’m too new to realize the depth of everyone’s pain…the more I read, the more I’m learning…it breaks my heart, my story doesn’t even touch the surface. I really admire everyone’s strength.
http://samvak.tripod.com/faq6.html
Wow. This kind of blew me away. Especially the end. Not that all (our) eums are Narcissists necessarily, but I don’t think any of us could deny the similarities to our relationships. Wow.
This article is about the victims.
Butterfly, I think you mentioned you don’t really like this site/guy 🙂 I know I’m kind of late in responding to this topic, but I’m so glad I found this site. Just wanted to share.
Im 3 months NC already!!!!! And before the maximun I could be without talking to him was 3 weeks.Im glad I could make it but sometimes I still have those moments where I miss him and wish he would contact me(he just tried it once since I started NC).But I think maybe is better he doesnt try because I dont know if Im strong enough to resist it.Anyway I just wish he would show he cares and that the love he said he felt for me is real.Yeah I know it wasnt since he is a EUM.Im just a bit nostagic today.
PJ the site is great and a good start point but I can smell narcissism now and it stinks when the sugar coating is gone trust me … guys have been quietly walked away from for too many compliments and sugar coating because I know what is under there. Too hot is not normal … too hot quite often says this guy is thinking “she’s the one!!!! at last SHE is perfect!!”. This is beyond red flag for me now, it’s get into the hazmat suit and take the anti-emotional vampire pills prophylactically!!
It’s the tone I don’t like and the fact that there is a sort of cult around this man which as he admits himself feeds his narc tendancies. Note that use of the word “victims”. I am no victim. I never have been a victim, just dealing with something I couldn’t understand that dovetailed with my own weaknesses. This was a SHIT experience, for years, but would I choose not to have had it now?
No way. Whatever the circumstances I’d have screwed up the same way with someone else because that was the best I could do at that time until I learned and saw. Now, I see this as a chance to grow in character and be there for others not in the FBG do-it-all for everyone but to really be there for them. I hope!
I’ve found more in depth and illuminating stuff, just by surfing, and particuarly by focussing on actual medical and psychiatric sites. You are absolutely right that not all EUM are narcs, nor are all EUW, and be careful that you are not immediately pigeonholing people because there’s other disorders that overlap … however …
It makes sense to me now, I have my closure. The way he said to me at the start “There has to be something wrong with you, it’s just too good to be true, so tell me what it is!” “I’m fat” “Is that ALL? Who cares about that?” (turns out he did … once he was blowing cold anyway, when he was blowing hot he didn’t give a damn). Everything … I was the one who could show him what it meant to FEEL love … but I can’t and that’s not my fault, no one can.
I feel really sorry for him now, truly, no matter what he has done to me. I really do forgive him but it’s so different – I feel no need to tell him, because quite apart from not wanting to re-engage with it all again (we know where that leads) there’s no point trying to tell him. A) He will be offended angry and hostile at ANY criticism and B) I have this very nice purple glass lamp from IKEA on my desk here. I think I will try to have a conversation about compassion with it … hmmm this lamp doesn’t seem able to communicate about it but I am having more success than I would with him.
Truly, the only answer is to walk away and not look back but to heal the darkness in your heart with forgiveness for what has happened, to them and to you … to accept that you were in love with someone acting “as if” they loved you because they have learned what to do and say but not how to think or feel … and then to maintain NC.
I can truly say now if he called me and I answered I’d just say “I hope you get everything you ever want in life but you have no part in mine. Goodbye”.
Something has changed inside now that I UNDERSTAND what has happened. My closure. Nothing would ever have been good and thank God I am here in this great crazy country and not alone and desperate in Chicago.
***
MC I’m glad you didn’t take offence, we are all strong and I do honestly think you’ve had a wake up call. Relationships are about give and take, we all treat people lightly when we are young but as we see these patterns become ingrained as we get older. Hugs xx
***
Today I am reclaiming. It’s mine, give it back! The songs which I was avoiding. The comedy, the films, the associations – things I enjoyed which were tainted, I am washing them 🙂
I need this site. Just stumbled on it while asking God to help me understand a crazy mofo. We did things together at his convenience. As though he was the only one with a job and the only one who has hard days of work. I work less hours and make more money than he does, so he demeans my job, and work schedule. Writes it off as meaningless.
Today is his birthday. Last time we spoke I asked him for sex when we were out at a club and he said, I am going home because I have this meeting tomorrow. bullshit. he frequently disappears and then returns for good sex with no questions ask. I broke the NC rule after not being available for him @6 weeks. after i gave in i never heard from him again. the rejection was killing me for a while. today is his birthday, i will get sweet revenge because i am not acknowleding it and will not call. last year when we were angry on his birthday and i didn’t call, when he saw me a week later he seemingly had tears in his eyes because i did not call. i felt so hurt thinking that all the other happy birthdays meant nothing if he did not hear it from me. i hate him for using me and am angry at myself for secretly waiting in the blinds for him to have this epiphany and come on back home. but if he does, at the surface we seem good, but at our core, we are just waisting each other’s time. meaning, we are good for sex, but have nothing to talk about immediately afterwards. by the way, he always closes his eyes when we are making love, never looks me in my eyes.
@Morning Coffee…thank you kindly for the hug, but I do not think I’ll be going to “their front door” anytime in the future. To tell him what? By me standing at that door, I’d be giving him something he doesn’t deserve…my deepest emotions and feelings. He’ll have to do without that for now, henceforth, and forevermore. As for going there, again, why open up a wound and more than likely cause a scene, the likes of which, no man has ever witnessed. And you know what? It would all be for his entertainment. No…Jetred will not be a sideshow for the Assclown and his “woman he’s been looking for and finally found”. I will not be the subject of discussion over their…eh-hem…morning coffee and amongst their friends. The woman who would go to those lengths is named, Misery and that evidently would suit him proving that I was no more than something to do until she came along. No, Ma’am…He will not take anymore of my power from me. I’ve got a long road ahead now…learning to be alone and accepting that the “honorable and worthy” man did not exist in him. I’ve got the sleepless nights to deal with and the tears, shame, and regret to make it through. I won’t put myself in a place for him to disgard me again like soured milk. I’m done with it…I shouldn’t have to tell him that I was a human being…a woman who loved him without hesitation…a woman who still misses him. No…I’ll leave these thoughts and pains on this page where they can not be used against me.
My NC point is two months without me leaving him a sign that I’m open for abuse. The longest I’ve gone without him actually saying somethnig to me is a whopping 4 months…that’s my goal for now. To not need him any more than he needs me. To not be the FBG…but my own woman needing nothing but to keep steppin’ high with a bounce in my walk again. I may not get there very soon, but I know what it can be like to wake up one morning and just not give a shit about…uhmmm…errr…”what’s his name”? I’ll get there…and still be a lady.
Ya see…I keep sayin’ this “MoFO” is the same dang guy! Y’all don’t believe me, but it’s the same man! LOL
@Kuji…you’d be surprised how many of the women here have mentioned the birthday angst and thoughts that are natural to have for someone on their birthdays, even if they don’t deserve those thoughts. I’m guessing it must be a terrible week to have a ManChild. I will try to, maybe avoid men born in August alltogether. My A/C’s birthday was on the 6th. I’m new here also…welcome.
@Planet Jane and Butterfly et al
I have been reading the info you posted on narcissism with great interest and great disgust. Reading the part about the Narc thinking of the wife as the “saint” and others he sleeps with (for Narc Supply) as “whores” who he has no emotional bond with made me feel nauseated. I don’t know if my ex is a Narc, but some of the info applied, and I feel even worse now about how he treated me. And yet, I am still craving him and the “interaction” we had ( not a relationship I understand now), even though it was mostly physical. I sooo want this craving to end!!! I have to see my ex next week at a conference, and I am losing sleep wondering how it will be having to see him in person again. Those of you who have written about breaking NC – I really feel for you, and I am dreading that happening to me.
Anusha – congrats on 3 months NC! That’s fantastic. I am just over 4 weeks, and hopefully counting……
@Butterfly – “I can truly say now if he called me and I answered I’d just say “I hope you get everything you ever want in life but you have no part in mine. Goodbyeâ€. Good for you!!!! I sooo want to get to that point. Your posts are sounding amazing lately – full of insight and strength. Enjoy the music etc you are “reclaiming”!!!
I’m starting to feel weak and I don’t know why 🙁
@Meant Because it comes and goes in waves honey. It comes and goes in waves but as many people have written the waves get less frequent and less turbulent. Plus, I have been lucky not to see or hear from him.
I recognise that “Saint and whores” thing though. Sounds very familiar. “If I saw other women it would be meaningless” and the panic when I said ok well if you see other people I should too. Eventually this was something he says he agreed to, and he did agree knowing full well I still wouldn’t but also by this point he was devaluing me all over the shop.
OK Meant – drastic measures. Visualise him as being covered in festering herpes lesions, weeping pus and scabby. Even if he smiles at you, even if he is sweet to you, just imagine how the pus is oozing disgustingly through a pair of filthy, threadbare underpants. Maybe there’s flies buzzing around his crotch too …
Jetred – you go girl. There’s a dignity and grace in your post above I can only ever dream of possessing.
The man who is leaving my thoughts (as sharply opposed to “my” ex, which he was until today or yesterday, not sure when I read the thing which turned OFF the lightbulbs because there was sunlight enough) also had sexual desires which were ones I didn’t share and I know he drove other women away with them. Some I morphed to adapt to, some I kind of liked and there were yet others I really liked but the song remained the same, the things I liked which he didn’t were “I don’t like that”.
So this guy who will soon be leaving your thoughts has found his match? Well, maybe. Maybe he really HAS found it, no matter though because he’s just some guy who has no place in your life and who doesn’t deserve to know what ups and downs, triumphs and setbacks colour your existence. The best outcome for you is that he finds happiness with her and leaves you the hell alone, of course.
Men born in August are either Leos or Virgos, for differing reasons I would be happy to avoid men born in August. I have September as the ManChild Amnesia Amnesty, I am hoping that I really don’t much care. At least I will be saving money, no transatlantic flights to book or any ladies underwear to buy supposedly for myself but which he would probably end up wanting to wear LOL.
@Butterfly…No, I ain’t scared of you. It’s probably myself that I need to worry about. LOL
@Butterfly
“OK Meant – drastic measures. Visualise him as being covered in festering herpes lesions, weeping pus and scabby. Even if he smiles at you, even if he is sweet to you, just imagine how the pus is oozing disgustingly through a pair of filthy, threadbare underpants. Maybe there’s flies buzzing around his crotch too …”
I *love* it!!! lol Thank you for this visual – I will add that to my “armor” when I have to see him next week. That crotch is becoming a little less appealing already. I will also imagine festering herpes lesions, and maybe a little HPV for good measure, in his mouth…
I found this site in the beginning of Feb after getting ‘the disappearing act’ in January. NC was pretty ‘easy’…he did not respond to texts and calls…light dawned a week later and I stopped. I sent a text in a weak moment in late April, no response. Sent one when I thought I was going to bump into him in June…and he responded that ‘love sometime to explain my behavior”…Never got in touch with me. Further self humiliation – sent a text asking how his new job was going…No response. I thought tossing out the olive branch so he would be less intimidated to call would finally motivate him to end the ‘bad karma” and give me some closure. These events have sent me reeling back into ‘THIS HOLE’.
Everything that is written on this site makes so much sense…but the application is very, VERY hard at times. I just wanted to hear from him what the hec really happened…not to validate me – I have nothing to be ashamed of except falling for ‘it’…maybe to validate the relationship or so he could prove he is not the AC or A HOLE his behavior indicates and walk away with some CLOSURE. Actions do speak louder than words…and it has now sunk in…why on earth would he send that text say he wanted to explain? and Why didn’t he follow through? My answer is: He is waiting for ME to make the CALL and grovel…I am not willing to do it…
There are two points I want to make: There have been discussions on this site about NC and closure. Some people believe that AC do not deserve ‘the final talk’ before NC…Unless it is an extreme situation I believe that you need to express “I am done, we are done” and start NC. That last call or conversation we never had would’ve made all the difference in the world to my healing. The second point is…once you do start NC…NC forever. It is damaging to break NC and open up old wounds and the sadness and humiliation that go with it.
Thanks to NML and everyone on this site…I am so much better than I was months ago…but clearly need work…and after all this time it is still day by day. I feel crazy after all this time of just wanting ‘that last conversation’ to fill in the blanks…it really is very hard. Stay strong everyone.
@ Meant – yay! I thought you’d appreciate that. Here’s another thought: cockroaches are incontinent …
@kimba – application is hard – Meant has said some lovely positive things above and I appreciate her support immensely but not quite managed to thank her because I am not sure I can do so without feeling like a hyprocrite – I don’t feel strong most of the time and atm I have a terrible ache in my solar plexus without really knowing why but I recognise it as anxiety. It all passes and the analogy of “the hole” is also how I try (in vain) to describe it to someone who has never been there.
This is also my way of saying “thanks Meant” x
Thanks Butterfly – About breaking NC…there are days that I say…or say to others..”stop this madness and get it out into the open like adults” but the end result is…more humiliation, sadness and frustration. We are not dealing with an emotionally strong adult in relationships here.
@Meant – read your post on a narc…and the wife being the angel…Right on target…well…I am starting to realize I WAS similar to the exwife…and that was too much for him to handle…he probably fills his time skimming the surface with shallow relationships. Goes back to description of EU…still not over the ex…says he is but isn’t…
Please everyone…stay NC if at all possible.
Question – My AC was so forthcoming, open and honest..so I thought…after a few cocktails…In wine is there truth? or is it just easier to lie????? Did he mean what he said (over and over) but could not follow through completely? I am sure NML will say “it does not matter” but to me…it really could be something…
I am getting lots done today but when I get bored with my housework I’m surfing and resting and think this article might be of help:
http://www.enotalone.com/article/2725.html
Extracts from a book called Why Not Call That Man?
@Kimba – “I thought tossing out the olive branch so he would be less intimidated to call would finally motivate him to end the ‘bad karma†and give me some closure.”
It is so funny(?) what we can talk ourselves into in order to justify making some kind of contact with the eum. Once you start down that slippery slope – that uncomfortable second-guessing – it NEVER works – it’s over – you know it and I know it. You know when a guy is just never gonna be there for you or your “olive branch” and so do I. And that is the time, ALWAYS, to just pack your sh*t and walk away gracefully. Save YOURSELF. Maintain your dignity.
He’s not “intimidated” to call you. He’s called you before. Make no mistake, you’ve made it pretty clear that you’re available.
It IS hard to go NC without a final conversation. I’m in the same boat as you. My xeum has never had a “final conversation” with me – I think he is allergic to them – and it is simply because he wants to leave it open, and vague in case he wants to come back. This is my third bout of NC with him – although I didn’t have the info and didn’t know the first two were NC. This time, I disappeared. And maybe I should have had the conversation with him, but there was so much I was thinking and feeling, I could have never told him. And I realize: they’re just words! They don’t really mean anything anyway. Especially to him. I will never get in there. He will never feel anything…except sorry for himself. It’s a wasted effort.
And God knows, he never gave me any information – even, especially when I asked. So, let it stay open. Maybe he’ll think I’m there for him…one of these days, but maybe when he turns around to look for me again, and takes a step toward me, the ground will fall from beneath his feet, and he’ll stumble…and he can wonder. Like I’ve had to wonder all these years.
@Kimba — “That last call or conversation we never had would’ve made all the difference in the world to my healing.”
You may think it would have, but would it have really??!! Like you, I thought the same thing, that I really needed to fully express myself (regarding my thoughts, hurt, his behavior and its impact etc.) to my ex-eum for closure and that by doing that, I’d finally be free of his taking up occupancy in my head. A surprise visit by him last weekend after 5 weeks of NC proved me wrong!! I expressed everything I fantasized about expressing to him. He verbally took responsibility for his behavior, admitted to mistakes and never once turned the tables on me. But in the end, it has not helped with closure because nothing has changed. He remains ambivalent about whether to move forward in the relationship and I remain firm that I will not be his friend. So in the end, all this did was to drum up all the old emotions and move me away from closure instead of towards it. In other words, this encounter has given him more occupancy in my head as I replay yet another interaction with thoughts of potential regarding the relationship slipping in again. Plus, he now knows that I still have emotions for him and even though they are emotions of hurt and anger, he knows I’m still connected because I was not indifferent. It’s getting to indifference regarding the man and the relationship that is the hallmark of being healed.
Hi girls,you think me unblocking my ex on MSN would be a bad idea? I deleted and blocked him and I wouldnt put him back (because seeing him online afects me too much) but I thought about unblocking him so he can see when Im online and talk to me if he wants.We are almost 8 months break up and NC for 3 months.What you think about that?
@Kimba – Thanks to NML and everyone on this site…I am so much better than I was months ago…I feel crazy after all this time of just wanting ‘that last conversation’ to fill in the blanks…it really is very hard. Stay strong everyone.” That’s great you’re feeling better after finding this site. Me too. I did have the “last conversation”, and it hasn’t helped me much either, similar to serena. I am still finding NC very difficult, and feel withdrawal symptoms (weird feeling in chest, nausea), so it seems NC is the only way to go (if only it was *easy*……) And, if you were similar to the ex-wife, does that mean you were more of a saint to him?
@Butterfly
– you are sooo welcome, and please don’t feel like a hypocrite. I know how hard it is to take your own advice. You do seem to have really good insight into a lot of issues that are discussed on here. And you have helped me personally many times, often “just in time” with your thoughtful (and often witty 🙂 )responses. and I know you are a great help to others, too.
@Planet jane – I’m on my third round of NC too (first since finding this site) although I *did* get to have “the final talk”, there was no way I could have told him all I felt or all the reasons I couldn’t be with him any more, or all the ways he had hurt me and devalued me. So, I just gave him a couple of ‘basic” reasons (e.g., I feel too guilty about possibly hurting innocent people) and kept the rest of the gory details to myself. I think that was for the best. I do have to see my ex 3 times per year through work, and I want to feel comfortable being in the same room as him. So I gave up a chunk of my “closure” instead. Not sure if I did the right thing – I will know better next week when I see him, but just know that “the last talk” is not all it’s imagined to be.
@Anusha
Please DON’T re-add him to MSN. Do you remember the reasons you told me to delete my ex? and how nervous you felt when he was online??? Is it worth it to see that he is online? What if he sends you and IM? How will you handle it? What if he doesn’t – how will you feel? I think you could be opening up old wounds if you do this!!!
@ Meant to be Happy- I wouldnt re add him (so I still couldnt see when he is online),I would just unblock him so he can see when Im online and send me a IM.I just wanted to see what he would do if he had the chance to talk to me.Im not sure about it since Im afraid it can just put my healing back to square one maybe.Im divided,part of me wants to do it and part of me isnt sure that is a good idea.That is why I want to know what you all think about it.
Anusha: don’t do it! seriously if your anythign like me you will start obsessing over him, wondering whether his online, why hasn’t he sent you a message if he can see you etc.
I have blocked my ex so he cant see me when I’m online (as he appears offline alot), and so I can’t imagine there would be any benefits in re-adding
I don’t believe it will do any good to have that last talk. If he couldn’t empathize with where I am emotionally with him…he won’t be any closer to understanding the words of love and dispair I say to him. He just wouldn’t get it and I don’t think I could take him saying to me that he never made any promises…he didn’t in words, but he did demand my loyalty. It’s almost as if he wouldn’t be satisfied unless he knew I was suffering over him. He moved her in and knew why I was moving to his area! I still have trouble with that, but it only goes to show…he wouldn’t care about my words any more than he cared about my emotional, physical, and financial well-being. He has disengaged and that in itself makes him feel stronger. It’s like a game with me. It may not be like that with her or any other woman, but I know I’m insignificant at this stage…why make him feel that he’s not to me? That last talk can burn you, I swear, it can.
@Jetred
You said “It’s almost as if he wouldn’t be satisfied unless he knew I was suffering over him.” That reminded me of a time that I was telling my ex that I was feeling frustrated because I felt more emotionally invested in the relationship than him, and wasn’t sure if we should continue. (mine never made any promises either, but seemed to *expect* my loyalty). He said “I have ruined your life” – which I thought was kind of an extreme comment, but then I thought about his tone, and he almost seemed to say it with a sense of pride. Like he “got off” on the thought that he could ruin my life. I thought to myself – come on, I must have imagined it – how could be enjoying hurting me? But now you said this comment about *your* ex, I’m wondering – maybe I was right! If so, I am amazed and disgusted by the extent of the evil games these EUM’s/AC’s play.
@kimba
I think deep down inside we hope that if you we put everything on the table once more, in the most clear and concise manner that you will get something – anything some genuine remorse, tears…. More often than not what you will get is diddly squat and then you will be left kicking yourself why did i contact him… Not worth it. I made the same mistake two weeks ago, I wrote him a letter explaining how hard it was for me to deal with the pain and anger…I never heard back and had the joy of watching him on msn ignoring me.
I didn’t get any closure, just more questions, why wouldn’t he respond to my letter, did he read it, is he angry, is he hurt…save yourself the extra pain.
@ Meant…I’m almost sure of his desire to be sure I’m down. He liked to talk about being dominant by nature. It’s one of the reasons I believe he has posted all over the place about his new situation. I don’t necessarily know that it’s all about me…it probably isn’t. There are bound to be others he’s sending a message to, however…atm it’s my heart I’m hearing from. he is satisfied that I’m hurting. He knows that I will be silent and yet, he has a sense of it…my goodness, “She has moved to my state…she was sprung.” I wonder sometimes did I remind him of his ex wife of almost 30 years. He claims to have been bruised by that, but you know, they only see the way it turned out and she hit him financially…who knows if he hasn’t broken heart in the first place? I feel so devalued, but I see that he was looking to do this in the first place. There are also questions of race that are popping up in my head, did he do this to prove something about b/w? Heck…he was looking for someone to fill the fantasy and so…I may not have for some reason.
It’s time to stop for now…I’m not making sense to even me. I’ve got no answers and I don’t think I could stand the truth.
@ Anusha. NO. It’s madness.
A lot of guys who identify as dominant do so in order to act like a total jerk – which is the opposite of what happens in a true power exchange relationship, in theory anyway the point is that both partners are equal and both give – the reality rarely matches and this is why in my opinion most Ds relationships either blow very hot then dead cold (leaving the kind of mess you’d expect but a support network at least who understand more), lead to two dull spuds finding a dull spud to be a dull spud with whilst telling the world how sexually adventurous they are or a poly relationship with very little boundaries – now, option three works quite well for some people and before you get too “but this is EUM!!” actually it isn’t because all parties are open, communicating and in consent and the core relationship is based on shared views, values and goals and therefore although it wouldn’t appeal to most people here it is working absolutely fine for them. I personally know quite a few people in this sort of relationship and they are all as happy as a bunny. Good for them, frankly, they really do love their partners and choose the other people in their lives carefully.
Not for me, I suspect, but hey.
How do I know so much about all this? *cough*
Anyway!!! moving swiftly on … the more I read the more my heart goes out to you ladies and the more I agree that the “final conversation” thing could just be reduced to the experience I had two days after the first “Maybe I love you in a different way” and me saying “Well that’s not enough, goodbye” (if only I had not read that text and broken the first round of NC). I was in the shower and knew I was alone and wouldn’t be heard, crying, and found myself screaming “WHY?”.
That one word says it all, to my mind. Why? WHY? WHY?
The answer is not anything that they say to you. The answer is that they can’t feel properly. The answer is that you are a co-dependant (by you I do mean you, and I include myself).
The answer is that the whole thing was abnormal and could never be. The answer is that you fell for something offered to you because you are addicted to the idea of love and the fantasy of perfection. So are they … but as you learn more about them you try harder, sensing perhaps their addiction to the fantasy they have of you and they … find someone else to be deluded about.
There is your answer: it was never really real. NML says this but time, space and NC (REAL NO CONTACT means not wondering if he contacted you/would he/why didn’t he/how dare he not?) including not looking at his Facebook profile etc etc etc etc for clues about what is happening with him and if he is missing you. Yeah he might be, and you should not care if he is mising you or not, he’s rat poison to you. Yes it’s ironic that you would be killed by rat poison and he wouldn’t but that’s because he’s immune to it because there’s something wrong with him: instead it’s the love he professes to you which makes him ill and your silence which MIGHT hurt him. Or not. Get over whether he’s wondering if you are ignoring him etc etc cos he isn’t, he’s finding someone else impossibly perfect until she – oh I dunno, says that she finds the fact that all races are humanoid in Star Trek to be far fetched and he has that running cold chill in his belly that says “Oh no. No no no. I thought she was the one who would … ” and then starts ignoring her for something so trivial.
Here’s a genuine one of mine. I said that the FILM of Tommy was crap. It is crap. It’s terrible in fact. He acted like I’d cut off his dick and told him he was gay (I have no illusions that he is at the very least bi-curious but he is vehemently in denial about it). The correct and rational response would have been “I loved that album” to be told something like “It’s a classic album but the film was terrible, Oliver Reed for a start”. Yanno, a conversation. Instead, he told me that the album was one of the defining moments of his teenage years and I ended up almost grovelling for him to forgive me (I did also tell him that his reaction was excessive and inappropriate given that no criticism was given of the album, just the film which he had not even seen).
It was facts like that meant he eventually complained that I had a forceful personality. Well yes I do have a forceful personality if I am mistreated. I’m openly admitting that I have very strong co-dependent tendencies, if I love someone I want to make a perfect world for them based on what I know they like or want. Thankfully I now have a job where I can channel those impulses safely and make a difference instead.
I hope there’s something in here that might help others because as has been said there is no answers only questions. You are expecting answers from a time frozen in your mind – but there is no freezing people, he will have done other things many of which you will wish you didn’t know about, and you have to understand as I learned to my cost that they DO want you to know about it, they want you to know what they choose to tell you and they openly get off on the power play.
These men are chumps but you HAVE to accept responsibility and until that concept truly filters in (which in time it will if you allow yourself to heal) you are just as guilty as they are because that little bit that makes you miss them (here’s mine: he had a lovely voice, he always called me baby … ummm … hey well here’s a good sign cos I am having to reach to find anything at all … he was very kind to animals) means that you are idealising, projecting and objectising them. You are just as bad as they are, in this regard, get a grip and see you are not in love with that man you are in love with what you think he is and the realities don’t match!
Maybe the guy with those qualities also seems a bit of a wet blanket. I’ve met someone recently who really likes me but he’s 29 and there’s no way I can go for someone so much younger than I am. If he was my age, even though he’s not my type (yay back on subject finally in this thread lol) I’d go for it but almost all relationships I have had were with men who were quite a bit younger.
@Jetred “She was sprung”????? Maybe this loses in translation over the Pond, seems like a very weird thing to put. Very weird. I wouldn’t get all hung up if I were you, that has no positive spin that I can see if he is talking about her. If he is talking about you then it’s proof positive that he is an asshole – ok, extreme image time here. Ever had an upset stomach from food you ate which was badly prepared? When you had finished spending too much time in the toilet in one direction or another didn’t you think “I want this out of my body as soon as I can”?
On a slightly related note, my searching made me see advice given to a guy dealing with his feelings about an EUW who was told “You wouldn’t want to get in contact with Cancer or Ebola would you?” (I am paraphrasing). I was amused and reassured to see someone else using Ebola as an example and from now on that’s how I will think of the man who will be leaving my thoughts soon … Ebola, who can’t REALLY play guitar, is ugly, has a load of my underwear that he probably threw away because if I am imperfect so are my knickers (yeah I know lol) and who had not got ginger hair but did have ginger pubes!!!!!
Who cares what the answer is. Make some shit up and then choose that it was the answer, then close the door and walk away. It smells in that room probably so leave a nice bowl of pot pourri on the table so that when you have to go back there (in your memories, in the future) it will just be a clean space or at least if the assclown is still in there it doesn’t smell. Tortured analogy there!
@Brad K – thanks so much for your response.Yes, NC is the ONLY way to go.Even after 2 weeks I had started to get a grip on myself,look at him with the clarity I didn’t have,and I really benefitted from this site.I managed to ignore his texts for a week,and then this is the one that got me… “So you have abandoned me”.It literally hit me in the stomach-I felt terrible,responsible(stupid,yes!) and despite all I had read and knew he was manipulating me,the emotions just rushed in.Guess 2 weeks is just NOT long enough to have any will power at all.Yet I still ignored him,until later that day I got a text “I am in a desperate situation”…that was my downfall.
But as you say,in hindsight I can see that contact DOES NOT work for me.On a positive note-my phone number changes on Tuesday.Unfortunately though,I have had to start the arduous process of NC all over again,and have all the feelings of disappointment in myself to deal with .BUT atleast I am better off than I was before I found this site.I have to deal with my own reactions to him,but atleast I know EXACTLY what he is.My therapist says she is sure he is a Narc(she offered that after I told her my story,I never suggested it).
I think many are, Eyes … I really do, having had two of them myself over the last 10 years. Take heart though that NC rarely if ever is a one time deal – nor should it be maybe, as it’s when you go back you KNOW it’s no good.
Ignoring them is the only way. Hugs.
Butterfly…LOL, when I used the word sprung, it was my own way to describe what he must know about me. To be “sprung over someone”…totally infatuated…in worship mode…not in control…unable to function properly on your own. Excuse me, but I picked that up from some of my younger friends (who, btw, either follow my blogs, know me from work relationships, call me for advice, etc because they THINK I am wise and have it all together) Oh brudda!!! No the term is used here to describe a negative state of being and a negative attitude I believe he has about my feelings and would be certain of it if I made contact for that “last talk”. He’d actually never use that word. He would say to himself, “I own her…I never have to seek out for her again, because she will be in the place in which I’ve left her. She is mine to use or not use.” The nerd as Master and Commander. Yup, he’d really be stoked to have that information about any woman he has dealt with. Sorry if I’m painting a picture of him that is no very nice…but sprung is the way he wanted to leave me…and I am. I’m just not ever going to allow that to leave these pages. I feel this way but he has no right to bask in my temporary dillusion.
Ah thank you now I understand. This man is what we can justifyably call a waste of space darling. My disengaging you take control, always remember that xxx
@ Butterfly…Yes…I see and can mentally process that…slightly. It’s the heart, though. I was sitting here thinking about what you’ve said about the reality of who this man is. Just a man. I can’t help wanting to hear that voice. It always sounded as if, when he spoke, he was calling me into paradise…lol, even when just to ask what I wanted for breakfast eggs scrambled with toast or eggs obrien. That jerk! LOL He had this thing he’d do…converse with me with the Yiddish kind of accent…so silly.but I liked it. The weight he gained last year…the first thing I saw when he picked me up from the airport was that wonderfully round belly poking out under the tee he insists on tucking in his trousers. So middle aged he looked. The way we could talk about many subjects…history, politics, old movies, the military….and he had a grasp on all of it and he even understood me….yada, yada, yada. Oh this is all crap…he’s being kind to someone else this morning…but I’m just saying I understand what you meant. I just have too long a list of things I remember and miss. CURSES! LOL
Thank you all,I have been thinking about it and I guess that isnt a good idea.Anyway like a friend of mine said when a guy realy cares for a girl he does whatever it takes to reach her,so I shouldnt need to faciliate things for him.
About the closure talk,I dont see the point on it.They are EUM so they wont get it.Is like NML said once,they dont think they are doing anything wrong and they see their efforts as something huge even if is just crumbs.I tried to make my EUM get it milion times and it never worked(like I bet you all did too) so why this time it would be diferent? Just do your own closure and walk away.I did that with my ex,when I started NC I didnt say a thing.I just stoped contacting him,there is no point in trying to make them see it realy.
@ Anusha,
“. . . so I shouldnt need to faciliate things for him.” It seems you are skipping an important step, Anusha. There is a decision to make, that still awaits you.
You are still trying to live in his world. You are waiting for him to choose you again. You started No Contact on advice that NC would help you recover – but you have not decided to leave. NC is intended to support and guide you in a decision that, whatever he does or wants, you want a life that does *not* include him. You are not trying to loosen the ties that bound you to him, only trying to make this separation more comfortable.
And that is a losing choice. You weren’t comfortable as things ended, and they won’t get comfortable while you wait for him to take control of your life.
If you were to go to the mirror, right now, and state, “He was not good for me. I can not afford to have him in my life. I want to be whole, I want to be free to live a healthy life. I want to be someone that attracts healthy people to me, and I want to choose to be with healthy people.” If you were to look yourself in the face, in the mirror, and state, “I choose to bar him and his hurt and harm from my life.” – You would not believe it.
There is a reason that this all seems fuzzy and complicated and doesn’t seem to get anywhere. You need to pick a direction. NC is an egregiously rude thing to do to someone, that is why it is only ever used to *end* a relationship. The safety and protection of NC is needed to break away from an unhealthy loss of control to someone unworthy. Having done NC, could you go back to him if you chose? I doubt it. Not only would you have to overcome your disrespect in telling him one thing then changing your mind, you would need to re-earn his trust that this time you won’t blow him off again. I doubt, seriously, that anything good could come from trying to go back – that bridge is well and truly burned. And it would never address the hurt, the loss of self you suffered from in that relationship.
Choosing to let him go, to acknowledge that you dare not let him back into your life, that you have to find and undo all the ties, all the assumptions, all the habits that still tie you to him – that would be a step toward taking control of your life, and placing it in the hands of someone you can and must learn to trust – yourself.
While you are living in limbo, trying to be comfortable while waiting for him to “make it better”, your healing is spotty, your self esteem is on hold, and you continue to live the life of someone in a co-dependent relationship.
When you turn your back on that page of your life, you want to move forward, towards a goal of a healthy life. Looking back, wondering what might have been, waiting to see what he will do – these distractions make it harder to take those steps from here to there.
Deciding, making a choice, is the simplest thing in the world to do. You consider, you decide, you act. It is astonishingly simple. Yet making that choice real in your life is as tough to do as anything else worth while.
Luck.
Brad- You are right,Im still conected to him.I do want to move on and atract healthy people but yes I still do hope that he will come back.That he will contact me and say how sorry he is for everything and change.It wont happen I know,I have been waiting for that all my relationship with him and never happened.So why I still insist on that even after had been proved milion times it wont happen I dont know.What I find hardest to let go is the emotional bond.I still have that strong yearning for him even knowing how bad he is for me.Maybe that just shows me how much work I still need to do on myself and once I have a better relationship with myself I wont want him anymore.
@ Jetred – so what? Miss them – it’s fine to miss them – just don’t confuse missing something and your need with it ever being good for you. Preaching to the converted I know.
I’ve spent the day at the zoo and when I first got there I “had him with me” so strongly that it almost felt like he was holding my hand, like I often felt when we were together but I pushed away the feeling that he would have loved it. The him in my head would have – the real him would have been attention seeking and distant.
I hope this is progress. I have missed him today but know it’s not really him. This site helps me more than I can possibly say.
I found all of you this morning, as I passed another day with Messenger opened in the corner of my screen, watching him wait for me online and stifling the urge to sign in. There have been more periods of no contact initiated by me that I care to count. The last and current one has been a whopping week. I’ve been reading all the posts trying to find comfort and strength in continuing this but I know that deep inside I want him back. Not that I ever had him.
We really had been friends with no ulterior motives for the first two years we worked together. I had met his wife and he had traded jokes and shop talk with my husband, both of them knew of us being friends. I can’t pinpoint when that friendship turned into more, but it was a good year before anything physical happened. Even then, we both called it quelling a physical need, professed that neither wanted a divorce. I did think that once we did the unthinkable – met at a hotel for an afternoon – the sex had no chance of living up to the anticipation we had been building up for months. The air had been thick enough to cut with a knife for months. Wrrooong – just as our minds had clicked, so did our bodies. This crazy affair followed. We talked constantly; on the phone, in person, by IM, texts, long emails, you name it. Each time we got naked with each other guilt would kick in for one or both of us, we’d swear ourselves off, vowed to be just friends. Please don’t groan here but I did, and still do, love my husband. Had someone told me years ago I would one day have an affair or be in love with two men, I would have dismissed it as impossible. Even when I did have to admit to myself that I was more in love and in lust with this man that I would ever have thought myself capable of, I still wasn’t ready to leave my husband. Whenever he spoke about leaving his wife I always said that I didn’t want that.
I don’t know what’s going on here. It’s two years later, and with the exception of the weeks when I “do the right thingâ€, we are in constant contact. Dozens of emails every day. 6 months ago I moved away, took a job on the other side of the continent. Some part of me must have thought he would follow, another part of me, an easier one to acknowledge, was certain that the time and difference would do their thing. Neither happened.
My “situation†(much as I hate to use that word) doesn’t fit neatly into the AC or EUM category, in fact I may be writing this because I would like for someone to tell me just where it fits in. I have kept this a secret for two years now, and although he and I have discussed this ad nauseaum , I know that the whole truth never comes out. We’re both pretty screwed up. We are both married to people who have it very much together, we both have said that’s what had attracted us to them all those years ago. I took the link to the “narcissist site†and as I had done many times before I found all the parallels in our bad childhoods and failed coping mechanisms and the topsy-turvy world we both inhabit emotionally. The thing is, I love this man for all the broken parts inside him because they are a mirror image of the scared, lonely, and insecure mess inside me. We’ve often joked that we were separated at birth, because even when we hurt each other we understand why the other person is compelled to do so. He hurts me by being married, but at the same time I stay married for the same security he gets from his marriage. I would leave my husband if he asked, but I have never asked him to leave his wife. I have been telling myself that if he really loved me he would have followed me. I want to be free of missing him this much. I can’t attach any of the “type†labels to him because they attach to me too.
Oh hell. I started this post to reassure myself that I am being strung along and need to get out, but maybe I’m the villain here. I am the one that went away and I am the one that is always running away. But here I am in my new apartment, boxes still unpacked six months later, because all I have done since I’ve been here is work and miss him. If I am the emotionally unavailable one, then why does it hurt so much every day we’re apart? I am almost 40 years old and God help me I am still married – although long distance – to a man whose integrity and kindness astounds me as much today as it did 10 years ago when I met him. I have done him such harm, even if he doesn’t and never will know it. That knowledge hits me in the stomach every single day. Still I’m pining away for someone else, who is as much a child as my husband is a grown man, who already belongs to someone else, and who has two children. So I’m starting week two of no contact, again. It’s also a second week of crying and being sick to my stomach. I need help, I need to stick with this, because the last two years have not been any kind of life to have.
Well Agea,
It’s tough to comment on your post, because you don’t really fit with the rest of our stories. BUT, I can relate. And I can say that in my LTR of 8 years, I cheated on my partner with a man that I felt a strong connection with – the type that you explain in your post – twin souls type deal (Fantasy? Probably). He was single. It didn’t work out between us. He flipped a 180, and began to ignore me and imply that my attentions were no longer desired. Turned out he was seeing another lady, whom he got a job at our mutual workplace and whom I had to work next to on a daily basis. The whole situation was incredibly traumatic and painful for me and pretty much broke my heart. But OF COURSE I have myself to blame. The affair very much ignited the break up of my relationship – which was already suffering, and in many ways secure, but unsatisfying.
Anyway, this was three years ago, and as I look back I see that: I was looking for a way out of my relationship. I was EU with my partner and looking for the dream/romance/attention with this other man. My partner was EU.
I don’t know what happend to my OM and his lady friend. He basically went NC with me – which broke my heart, but it is certainly understandable. I did have very strong feelings for him, and I very much wish him the best.
Anyway…I URGE you and your OM to stop, and take a look at the ways in which you are both EU, and the ways in which you are hurting yourselves and your partners as well. It really isn’t worth it.
When my OM first went NC with me, I was devastated. I couldn’t eat, could not contain my anxiety, could not mask my despair. But it was for the best. And I got over it, eventually. I took the time to look at my relationship with my partner, and we both agreed to end it. That was also difficult, but it was the right thing to do.
I believe that you need to maintain NC with your OM in order to get a clear look at your existing relationship and yourself, and decide if you want to remain in it, and decide how/if you’re going to work on it. But you need the space to do so, and being with another man is not going to give you the space or the focus. And it just isn’t fair to anyone involved.
I remember feeling so incredibly lucky, and just on top of the world to have two men…one faithful, trustworthy and reliable, and one new, exciting, interesting and fun. If I had only known the pain I would have to go through for those few, fairly brief moments of joy and exhileration! I wouldn’t take it back…because the learning was incredible, but please be warned!
I hope this makes some kind of sense 🙂 I’m trying to relay an experience that I am not proud of and still making sense of.
Luv.
“He was not good for me. I can not afford to have him in my life. I want to be whole, I want to be free to live a healthy life. I want to be someone that attracts healthy people to me, and I want to choose to be with healthy people. I choose to bar him and his hurt and harm from my life.â€
Brad, these are excellent affirmations of truth to those of us recovering form the EUM experience. Thank you for sharing. Anusha, you are wishing an unhealthy man will magically turn healthy…. If only it were that easy. All we can do is work to stay strong and healthy for ourselves.
You know…I wasn’t so brave to start this NC…he actually started it. He felt that he had to go NC with me because he fell in love with someone else and he hadn’t expected it to happen. So then what do you say to someone who looks like they have their heart set on being with you. He was the one who went NC…not me!
I’m sitting here just thinking…maybe there is absolutely nothing wrong with him. Maybe it is me. Maybe I came across as having something wrong. Maybe he was the one who dodged a bullit by finding the woman of his dreams. Someone healthy that he could build a life with.
Maybe I wasn’t attractive to him, because of the physical or the emotional. He could see that I was damaged? Maybe it was taking so long to get moved, he didn’t trust that I would really come?
I was just thinking about it.
@Jetred,
“I feel so devalued, but I see that he was looking to do this in the first place. There are also questions of race that are popping up in my head, did he do this to prove something about b/w? Heck…he was looking for someone to fill the fantasy and so…I may not have for some reason.” – so you think he started a relationship with you with the intent of hurting you? Wow. And I don’t understand the race thing – are you and this other woman different races and he purposely chose her based on race? I’m not understanding you.
@Planet Jane
Thanks for sharing your story about your experience with cheating on your LTR partner. Sometimes I feel that people on here respond less often to those of us that are cheating or are the OW as they feel we are setting ourselves up for misery by being involved in a “forbidden” relationship. Yes, I am disgusted with myself for being emotionally and physically involved with another woman’s man, and I beat myself up about that every single day. I just really appreciate your openness here, and I feel that you can understand my situation just that little bit better.
thank you….. meant xo
@Brad K
I see we posted at the same time. I just wanted to add, after reading your response to Aega, that I think this is the most carefully worded, tactful, helpful, honest post I have ever seen you write. Reading your response to her gave me such a feeling of acceptance on this site, even though your comments were not directed at me. Thank you, too…
Meant
@Aega – I hope that *you* found Brad’s post helpful too, and I wish you all the best as you sort through this difficult situation.
Aega,
One starting place would be NML’s ebook, Mr. Unavailable and the Fallback Girl.
This is one of the classic models of emotionally unavailable people. You are married, and took up with someone else – you didn’t want to be responsible for sharing his life. You still don’t. He took up with a married woman- he was into the sex adventure, not looking for a mate, or any other kind of healthy relationship. This situation has emotionally unavailable written all over it. Plus there is the failure of character – you cannot be true to your marriage in honor and honesty, and reserve time and energy away from your marriage. The time and attention you spend on things that aren’t of your marriage – are a cheat to the marriage.
You seem to believe you are the only sex adventurer on this bozo’s string – he is fooling around with a married woman, what can he possibly have to say that you can assume to be the truth, including his relationships with other women? How many unintended, second-hand sexual contacts do you want to bring into your marriage, each carrying a potential vector for disease?
Your first challenge is to decide for yourself, for now and all time. Do you want to stay married to your husband? Everything else flows from that choice. To be a wife is an honorable and sacred estate. It is a commitment of a lifetime. There are directions you can express your energy – into family, career, community service, etc. But your actions should always be honorable in the eyes of family, community – and the person staring back from your mirror.
To be a wife answers all of your questions about your relationship with the bozo – none of that matters any more. He is gone now – your task is to become the responsible and respectable wife you vowed to be. Instead of trying to recapture the excitement of new love, focus on the security and comfort of your home and husband. Practice distracting your thoughts anytime the bozo crosses your mind. I think a daily journal – more in depth than a diary would be – can be a powerful tool for charting where you are, and tracking your journey to where you need to be. Unfortunately a journal tends to surface at the worst time, and would be likely to hurt your home and husband.
When you suggest you might be the villain, the one that caused disruption with the bozo you were sneaking around with – that cannot matter. In the first place, both of you were intentionally seeking a partner that would not last, or you would have found yourself single before ever noticing that someone else might be interested in you. Your fling was not going to persist, and was always going to end painfully and unhappily.
Cheating harms you. It diminishes your ability to think of yourself with respect, with trust, and with honor. You trade your self esteem for a sex adventure. It may not be apparent until much later, but I think you have to return to living a healthy life.
Any contact from the bozo is a direct and meaningful threat to your marriage, and thus to your self esteem. You don’t really want him – you are just reveling in the sex adventure and the illicit thrills of a sex fling (is adultery still a crime in your state?).
Your situation isn’t unique. Several visitors have shared similar stories of being distracted from their marriage. I don’t recall that any of them decided, “Well, that isn’t helping me.” and walked away without regret.
Choose wisely, but do choose what you want your life to be. Don’t wait for someone else to make your choice.
@Meant to be happy – “Thanks for sharing your story about your experience with cheating on your LTR partner. Sometimes I feel that people on here respond less often to those of us that are cheating or are the OW as they feel we are setting ourselves up for misery by being involved in a “forbidden†relationship. Yes, I am disgusted with myself for being emotionally and physically involved with another woman’s man, and I beat myself up about that every single day. I just really appreciate your openness here, and I feel that you can understand my situation just that little bit better.”
Oh boy. Ok, I’ve been an OW myself – a very long time ago. I was very young. But all I remember is that it was one of the most painful things I’ve ever been through. I would never do it again – and I’m sad to say I’ve had opportunities – because to me, all it means is PAIN. A pain that I can prevent. I will not court it. And I hope you feel the after your experience here 🙂
We’re human, we make mistakes. I think the only way we can move on and grow and develop that elusive self-love stuff is to accept ourselves – mistakes and flaws and feelings and all – and then try to do what we’ve learned through all this is best for us…and others in our lives.
And MAN! Am I an EUW or WHAT!? I know it’s no joke, but the more this stuff comes out. Geez, it gets hard to deny. I have so much work to do…and I’ve done so much. Is anyone else out there just exhausted!? 🙂
@Meant…my goodness, It seems that my answer here will stop me from thinking in the direction I was on my last comment. Gee whiz, you stopped me from putting myself down lower than the two of them.
Anyway…this man has is attracted to women of my heritage but I feel that it could be just a fantasy that he’s held since he was a younger man. His wife was the same race as he was…but the women he has “befriended” since the end of the marriage where all African American…the new woman and myself included. I’m not certain what he was planning to do in the beginning with me, I am simply seeking some healing balm of understanding. I may say anything at this moment in my period of NC. Slap me around if I get out of hand, okay? He…liked to feel that he owned me, and that a b/w as subservient was a turn on for him. On one of my visits, we were intimate and he called me the N-word. And I flew off the handle moved into the guest room and refused to talk to him…but in all honesty, I sat down with him the next morning…ah, breakfast…and he tried to explain that it was only between us. I still don’t understand that part of his psyche. (oh yeah, now that I think of this…I didn’t respond to this the way I should have…it was a denegration that if you could see my face in person, I would never admit to) He calls it dirty talk…it’s just something I am not at all comfortable with…from anyone. Call me old fashioned, but I had real questions about his character after that and bunched in with the fact that he is a conservative thinking person…I just wondered if I was in love with someone who thought of me as an inferior being…and now this. I can’t really say. He is open about this relationship…I thought he was pretty open about whatever we had. Human behavior is a hard thing to figure out. He confuses me if I lay it all out in front of me…contridictions, political views, apparent insecurities he had about himself that he’d try to hide. Again…all the things about him are swirling around in my head. Maybe it was nothing based on ethnicity…but it certainly was something based on me. I hope I’m not too flakey for you to follow.
Meant to be happy – Oops! I hope it didn’t sound like I was digging at you about your situation being preventable. I know that we all have our lessons to learn on here. A lot of what I read on this site is women who know what they have to do, and they’re just working through it. Because knowing it and actually putting it into to action and practice are two different things. And not knowing it is just dangerous. Ok, but what I was getting at is that, I’ve learned about being the OW. And it is simple for me now – as I imagine, not becoming an fbg is a no-brainer for others who have been through it – or just came by it naturally from a different upbringing or whatever. Anyway, what I’m trying to say is that I couldn’t possibly judge you. You’re on here. You already know what you have to do. You’re trying! And I wish the best for you! 🙂 Luvs!
Who hasn’t been the OW…whether we knew it when we were walking into it or not. We should all be able to relate here.
Okay, okay…GROUP HUG!!! ((((hugz)))) LOL
I’ve never been the other woman. I’m not saying that to sound superior in any way, I just never have been the other woman.
Jetred, your doubts are normal – I think that too “maybe it was cos of me” nu-urrrrrr … it takes two to tango. Occasionally I was bitchy cos I was about to have a period (more than bitchy, cos I want leaving alone then and am scared of being abandoned). I’m working on that … but it doesn’t stop him from having serious problems and I snap myself out of that thinking cos at the end of the day it doesn’t help.
NML says this and let’s repeat it.
“IT IS NOT ABOUT YOU. IT’S ABOUT THEM. THEIR THOUGHTS, THEIR DESIRES, THEIR EMOTIONS AND WHAT THEY FEEL LIKE DOING.”
Good bad or indifferent, it being about them helps me. You could change everything about you and it would be no good and remember that they might have found someone, they might just be blowing hot like they did with you (whilst blowing cold on someone else in all likelihood). You can turn yourself inside out, rip yourself to shreds and it all makes no difference at all. He’ll do what he wants. You’ll be wasting even more of your time.
I actually find now I don’t really come here for support with my own issues directly – it’s seeing other people’s experiences, turmoil and self doubt/pain that has made me see sense. That and reading NML’s book.
Love and hugs to you all.
Oh yes BTW Jetred (not had breakfast yet and already been to work lol low blood sugar) I can see what is going on there with him but I really don’t like to even identify with the way he thinks remotely and for a short period of time. This man is a waste of space … truly …
@Butterfly…”…don’t lie to even identify with the way he thinks remotely and for a short period of time.”
I don’t want to seem like a dunce, but…well…HUH?
Jetred
I have not been so active on her, I come back when I need a support boost but there is what I see in your story, and forgive me if I may have missed something big that takes me off the mark,
Many of us are here because we are mature, emotionally open people who became involved with someone who was less than honest, nor very open with us, and thus hurt us very deeply. The dishonesty and holding back is a betrayal of emotional intimacy. Being ” let go” in a callous and shallow way is really cruel behavior to exprience.
Maybe, maybe the other woman is the one for him. However, anyone with mature emotions in a mature relationship sees meeting someone else for what it is, and carefully evaluates what they are experiencing. The consider both womens’ feelings all the way and ends the one relationship in a most loving, respectful and clear manner, that does not leave the other person wondering in confusion about what happened.
Your recent comments reminded me that the EUM I was involved with was definitely power tripping with me. He is a mixed bundle of fear, distrust of women, stubborn and conservative thinking ( meaning not very willing and open to learning new ideas ) and he manipulated me by..idealizing and then devalued me, over and over. It took me way too long to figure out what was going on and it was emotioanlly manipulative and draining all along the way.
Anyway, if you have any worries about ” maybe It’s me “you I think the best plan is to work to be the opposite of how we define EUM, I am vigilant watching for sabotage and other dishonest behaviors in relationship that are based on fears and insecurities. I always seek to be centered, work to feel at peace with who I am, believe that I have much of great depth to give, and believe I do find others with that level of goodness to reciprocate. I am careful now when something does not feel right to pay close attention and explore that feeling.
@Planet Jane – “We’re human, we make mistakes. I think the only way we can move on and grow and develop that elusive self-love stuff is to accept ourselves – mistakes and flaws and feelings and all – and then try to do what we’ve learned through all this is best for us…and others in our lives.†Yes, this is true, and this applies no matter what our situation. I agree wholeheartedly!
“Oops! I hope it didn’t sound like I was digging at you about your situation being preventable. I know that we all have our lessons to learn on here.†– I didn’t take it that way at all – just that you were sharing even more, which is great 🙂
@Jetred – “I just wondered if I was in love with someone who thought of me as an inferior being†– what a horrible thing to have to wonder. It doesn’t sound like he was respectful towards you, even at your most vulnerable time (when you were being “intimate†with him). Now I feel sorry for this woman he has decided to take up with, and I’m relieved for you that you are no longer with him. My ex would hint that he was interested in trying some bondage, or “slave and master†fantasies, but I never went along since I didn’t trust him enough, or feel that he respected me enough. The more I read and share, the more I realize we are dealing with sick men here… You suggested “insecure” – I think that’s an understatement! And I followed your thinking well – not flakey at all – thank you.
Jetred, thanks for the group hug
@jetred — “He…liked to feel that he owned me, and that a b/w as subservient was a turn on for him. On one of my visits, we were intimate and he called me the N-word. And I flew off the handle moved into the guest room and refused to talk to him…but in all honesty, I sat down with him the next morning…ah, breakfast…and he tried to explain that it was only between us. I still don’t understand that part of his psyche.”
Jetred, THINK about this. He abused you! This alone speaks VOLUMES nevermind that he manipulated you to move and then dumped you for another woman. Solely based on this one experience it’s clear that this man is an abuser and you were abused. Regarding his psyche, this man likely has a disorder that goes beyond abuse and WAY BEYOND EUM!! From what you’ve posted he seems sadistic and dangerous and likely has a personality disorder that is beyond narcissism. It seems like he enjoys moving people around in his life like pieces on a chess board. He entertains himself in this way through manipulation and control.
Thank GOD you aren’t moved in with him. In time I know you will see this as the blessing that it truly is. A therapist could help you in a major way to understand what you’ve been through, help you break the bonds that tie you, and help you rebuild your self esteem and self confidence.
Stout (2005) states “One in twenty-five everyday Americans . . . is secretly a sociopath. And they can literally do anything at all and feel absolutely no guilt. One of their chief characteristics is a kind of glow or charisma that makes sociopaths more charming or interesting than the other people around them. They’re more spontaneous, more intense, more complex, or even sexier than everyone else , making them tricky to identify and leaving us easily seduced. Fundamentally, sociopaths are different because they cannot love. Sociopaths learn early on to sham emotion, but underneath they are indifferent to others’ suffering. They live to dominate and thrill to win.”
Reference:
Stout, M. (2005). The Sociopath Next Door. New York: Broadway Books
@Jetred Well the power tripping for one thing and also if he is active on the BDSM scene or knows anything about the BDSM scene then it’s a fact that there are statistically few black women who are submissive. It’s a status symbol in some people’s eyes, and the fact that he called you the N word makes *ME* feel very uncomfortable (and I have zero right to be, other than by way of wanting to treat other human beings with dignity unless they have proved they don’t deserve normal consideration).
However, as anyone who has dealt with the idealising/obsessional/devaluing/devolving/re-idealising/spiralling downward devalation cycle will tell you (and thanks for post aphrogirl because it IS bloody exhausting), it’s not quite so straightforward as “inferior”. Were that it was, we’d kick these morons to the kerb so much easier.
@ Meant not everyone who likes some kinky sex is automatically a sick weirdo 🙂
Ooh Serena your post just showed.
The ex has, I am sure, sociopathic tendancies.
aphrogirl- You are right it isnt that easy.I will stop wishing that and concetrate on my healing.Brad afirmation was realy nice and I will use it to remind me to keep on my path.After reading his post I realized that I suposed to make a choice and stick to it,that I cant be with a feet here and other there.I chosed to move and have healthy relationships so I will realy do it from now on and remove any ties with my ex like he sugested.No more hoping he will change or anything like this.
@Butterfly
“not everyone who likes some kinky sex is automatically a sick weirdo’
I fully understand this, but combined with the way he made me feel other times, and that he was well aware of BDSM lingo (I had to look it up when he mentioned it) made me feel very uncomfortable. I am very open sexually myself, but it was the overall tone of our relationship ( and the way he said “I’ve ruined your life” with a proud tone of voice), combined with his fantasies that gave me a sick feeling in my gut. Am I making sense here?
Sadly Meant, yes you are babes.
I’ve heard these words before and what I am interested in is what you said to him … he wanted to hear you ego stroke him and say he hadn’t, I suspect, not that it would actually change how he acted.
Maybe I should make a mail address to use here and then if you like you can contact me and I’ll give you a real one? I bet it gets more complex the more you look hon – and whilst I was making light with the kinky sex comment there are a LOT of very very very VERY fucked up people in that world.
@Aega – My situation is similar to yours. I am an EU wife now separated from her EU hubby. And instead of focusing on either ending or retooling my marriage, I chumped out and got involved with an EU A/C co-worker (talk about upgrading).
I always suspected that something was ‘off’ regarding my issues with commitment. And this site has truly given me the tools to heal my self-esteem and strengthen my character.
@Butterfly,
OK, I am getting concerned now. Do you know a bit about BDSM culture? Is there a way we can get each other`s emails? I’m not sure how that works on here. I have one under a male name that I used to communicate with my ex MM so his wife wouldn’t know about me, but I don’t want to post it on here, in case he ever found this site. I would FREAK if he read the things I have put on here!!
But I *am* very curious about what you know about people who are involved in this area.
Oh, and when he said `I`ve ruined your life` I think I just said something vague like `not really`. We had been drinking that night, and I don`t remember all the details`.
The thing that bothered me about the whole BDSM hints, is that he said he hadn`t slept with his wife for years, and yet he mentioned these `slave` ideas. So, I wondered who he might be acting this stuff out with, since it wasn`t with me!!! During one of these chats where he hinted about this, I came out and asked him if he was into S&M, and he said Ì`m not into anything`. He said he had read about these things. He just said something like `lots of things intrigue me`. And so that conversation ended. `So yes, Butterfly, now I am very curious about what other insight you may have in this area!!!
What is BDSM??
I don’t know, Brad. Have you ever considered that some emotionally unavailable people are those that feel so much that it seems beyond what a “normal†person feels and gives of oneself? That the withdrawal is a learned defense mechanism because you have spent your life looking for the same kind of intensity in someone else and never found it?
You are so right about so many things; cheating not only harms but once it’s tainted a relationship it’s there to stay; it robs you of self-esteem, and it takes away both from you and the person you have wronged whether or not that person is aware of what happened. You are right that I have to make a choice and believe me I have tried. I have been suspended in limbo for two years now and all I seem to do is watch another day pass me by while I do nothing.
I’m not reveling in the sex adventure, though. One legacy I have from my parents is a pretty healthy attitude about sex: it’s what you do when you feel so close to someone that in addition to sharing your mind you want to experience them on another level. It’s not an act of revenge or frivolity, it is certainly never a poker hand to be played – or not – and it’s never had the allure of the forbidden for me because I think that physical intimacy grows out of emotional intimacy and you can only have that with one person at a time.
I didn’t go looking for emotional intimacy outside of my marriage. I thought I had peeled off for my husband as many layers as I ever would for anyone. He is a wonderful man who always listened and made it better, and after 10 years of marriage still always got up before me to make sure that he started my car for me and checked that I had remembered breakfast, keys, a winter jacket, and a laundry list of things to be done that he didn’t trust me to get done if not prodded. He meant all this from the heart. But sometimes, when we fought, he would express his frustration with all the ways in which I fell short of his ideal person. We would talk about it afterwards, when the heat of the moment passed, and it always boiled down to one thing – he said over and over that he had thought once we were married he would be able to work me free of my “irregularitiesâ€. The fact that I love dogs because they are straight shooters, that I can get lost in my studio for hours or stay up all night writing or reading with no regard to what the lack of sleep will do to me the following day. That it’s important for me to be liked. That I can’t cook because no one ever did in my house and I had traded domesticity for a demanding job, and I consider food as something your body bugs you about after you’ve run 15 miles (and this is why someone up there invented power bars). These were all weaknesses to be fixed. And I would say in return, over and over again, that I married him because of everything that he was, and loved him for his shortcomings, not in spite of them. And this was my definition of love.
I don’t really know what my point is here. None of this justifies the betrayal, I know. But I know exactly why I fell in love with “the bozo†– he gets me. He takes me as I am and doesn’t try to fix me. He relates to all the fears and understands that a part of me will never be able to mature because it shut down a very long time ago. I suppose you could apply the narcissist label to me in the sense that I do see myself through the eyes of everyone else and if there is no reflection of me to be found then I don’t really exist. He gets it because he got “broken†a very long time ago, too, and has spent the last 3 decades putting a fashionable stucco façade on the cracks.
Yes I should have left my husband if this was the case in the first place. I almost did, several times. But although I don’t really have any family and the concept of community is something I struggle with because I never really fit into one, I have always tried to do the right thing, and not because it allows me to like the person in the mirror, but because I don’t ever want anyone to suffer. And my husband said that he needed me. I’m really not trying to make excuses. I’m just saying that falling in love with someone else when you are married is not by definition a thoughtless act of a person with no scruples that feels some kind of sense of entitlement to do what she wants. It’s just falling in love.
Planet Jane, thank you for telling me that you had gone through something similar. I have been reading everyone’s posts here and you are all women with so much integrity, insight into who you are, and emotional maturity. I sit here and cheer you on as you forge ahead with NC to regain control of your life, and think that maybe I can, too. It’s lonely out here two thousand miles away from home and I’ve been carrying this secret for a very long time now. It helps to talk. For the first time in months today I went for a serious run and some of my former energy is starting to seep back in. I want to feel something good again. I had gone from trophy wife to a miserable exile and can’t say either one does much for me.
Nene, I’m hoping for the same tools here. You hit it right on the nail when you mentioned that feeling of something being off about your commitment issues. If I could turn my issues into stock options I would single-handedly lift the entire market out of recession… It helps to know that other women have been here too and that there is an “after†to this mess, even if you’re not able to define it yet.
Can I join in the group hug? I promise not to get EU cooties on anyone… 🙂
@Meant, Butterfly, Aphrogirl, and Serena…and the rest of the darlings on this site
Thank you so much. Had a difficult day, but this information makes it not hurt so much today. I’m re-reading it all…don’t want to forget or miss any part of it. You all actually seem to hear me through the bits and pieces of my story that I can stand to share so far. I don’t know what I’d do without access to this site right now. You all are such lovely and brilliant ladies.
Thank you again.