One of the things I’ve learned through experience and then through reading countless stories here on Baggage Reclaim, is given half a chance, we would invest our entire lives investigating what the hell happened between us and someone that wasn’t mutually interested or was unavailable. Recently I’ve had a few people tying themselves up in knots trying to distinguish between the two. Here’s the thing:
Whether someone is unavailable or not that interested in you, both tell you that you that you need to take a parachute, jump, land, keep running and don’t look back.
If you’re debating between these two things, I’m left in no doubt about what you’re doing – looking for reasons to remain invested or even to blame yourself. I know immediately that you see shades of grey in inappropriate or even downright unhealthy situations and that you don’t register someone being unavailable or not that interested as a code red. Instead, you internalise it, wonder what’s wrong with you, why you’re ‘not good enough’, and how you can turn it around and ‘win’ them over.
Do you know how most people find Baggage Reclaim? Looking for answers. In fact, they’re looking for a solution to a problem that ideally involves a magic fix-all that will win over a reluctant somebody. When they think of the solution, it tends to involve tactics to ‘catch’ them, or ways they can change themselves or evoke change in the other party.
Many readers arrive here wondering what they ‘did’ to change this person who they believed was crazy about them, was going to give them a future, or at least wasn’t planning to use them up and then bail. ‘They may wonder if they’ve misunderstood or are going crazy.
But then you discover that you’re not alone.
Your problem isn’t so ‘unique’ and in fact, sometimes you read a comment or a blog post and wonder if they’re talking about the person you’re with.
Many of you believe you were going to get the relationship that you thought was on offer, it’s just that you ‘did’ something to prompt a change in scheduled relationship programming.
Many of you believe that you were going to be involved with this amazing, loving, caring, sharing, yada yada person, it’s just that you ‘did’ something that actually managed to change their fundamental characteristics, qualities, values, and mental and emotional behaviour.
Don’t you think that’s actually completely outrageous? That you could believe that under ordinary circumstances, this person would be The Absolutely Most Perfect Person On Earth but because they’re involved with you, they’ve suddenly dropped their emotional skills and ability to treat you with some basic courtesy or afford you some honesty?
And what if it comes down to you believing that they’re not as interested in you as you’d like them to be? If someone isn’t interested in you, it can be for a multitude of reasons that don’t have to come down to some bone crunching, horrible ‘rejection’ of you as a person.
When you’re not interested in someone, is it because you’ve identified a hideous flaw in them and that they’re not ‘good enough’? When I think of all the guys I haven’t been interested in, while about 10% of them were jackasses, the other 90% were down to something within me that wasn’t always possible to put my finger on, or even being into someone else.
If everyone isn’t my cup of tea, suffice to say I’m not everyone’s. The same goes for you.
How can you be perfect for every person you come across?
If you think that it matters whether they’re unavailable or not interested it’s because you believe that you’re responsible for one of these reasons. You can’t ‘make’ someone be unavailable. You can enable it by participating but they come to the table unavailable, even though initially they may blow an available trumpet. They might not be interested due to something specific they’ve encountered in you but equally they might not. It could be because they don’t want a relationship, they don’t want to mess you around, or anything. The more you make it matter is the more of your life you spend regretting the fact that you couldn’t ‘make’ them ‘change’ for you to get the level of interest you want. It’d matter less if you moved on.
Unavailable or non mutual interest – it doesn’t matter which one it is because both require you to push your mental flush handle and distance yourself.
Here’s how it stands – you’re either in, or you’re out. There’s no such thing as 10/20/50/75 or whatever percentage available or interested. You’re either in, or you’re out. You’re available or you’re not. You’re interested or you’re not. It.Is.As.Simple.As.That. This isn’t the frigging Hokey Cokey.
Being ‘interested’ isn’t a commitment to marriage etc but if you can’t commit to even being available enough to feel out your feelings and put both feet in to discovering whether you both have something that can progress into a relationship, you sure as hell won’t be available for much else.
If someone’s interest extends to getting all of the trappings of a relationship without the commitment, they have limited availability and interest – you don’t need someone with a cap on their capacity.
Many people think ‘unavailable’ means they will only use you for a shag and go, or will not be dating – as many a person in a casual or struggling to progress relationship has found, this is completely untrue. I challenge you to tell someone they’re a user. Nine out of ten will deny it because most people don’t want to see themselves as being using even when they are. They think if they’re enjoying themselves and they perceive you as ‘benefitting’, they’re all good.
That’s why it’s up to you as the person who is responsible for you to recognise when someone is unavailable or is not interested or half interested and opt out.
It doesn’t matter if they don’t see it – you see it. Your job isn’t to raise them from the ground up and teach them basic things that even my four year old could probably grasp. Some people aren’t honest and responsible enough to know their own mind, never mind clue you in on their thought process.
Your job in life is not to turn a pigs ear into a silk purse or to keep pitching yourself like a used car salesperson to batter and override their objections until they eventually become interested/available.
Unavailable = unavailable for a mutually fulfilling relationship.
Half interested/not interested = not mutual interest = not available for a mutually fulfilling relationship.
Don’t waste your time – every moment you spend with someone that isn’t available or mutually interested, keeps you hanging around in an unhealthy relationship when you could be going out there and forging a mutual relationship.
Your thoughts?
There’s some great comments on my last post about being blinded by appearance about recognising that people who are available don’t just offer out a slice of pie to make you jump through hoops for them to determine if they’ll give you all the pie, plus a great shoe analogy.
Check out my ebooks the No Contact Rule and Mr Unavailable & The Fallback Girl and more in my bookshop.
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So true! I was at the beach today and ran into a male friend of mine that was interested in dating me when I met him. He is handsome, in incredible shape, sweet, smart and can have his pick of women. For some reason, homeboy just didn’t do it for me. I just wasn’t feeling it and it never progressed beyond a friendship – and a lovely one at that, so I’m glad I didn’t dive in with halfhearted interest trying to force anything. From my description of him, you can see that there is nothing “wrong” with him at all – I just wasn’t feelin’ the romance with him! When I met him, where was I? Oh, in peak emotionally unavailability/bad self esteem condition. Who the heck knows if it was specifically my lack of romantic interest or my emotional unavailability, but for whatever reason I didn’t go there with him. Could I have had him take me out on dates, used him to make exes jealous or passed time with him? Yup, but I didn’t. My point is, regardless of what the problem is on the other person’s end, it’s a waste of time trying to figure it out, because they may not even really have a clue themselves. If it’s a situation where they are using you and you’re getting nothing, isn’t that enough of a clue that you don’t need to go there with them?!
p.s. I burst out laughing at, “I challenge you to tell someone they’re a user. Nine out of ten will deny it because most people don’t want to see themselves as being using even when they are. “, because good Lord is that the truth! I tried getting my yo-yo/boomerang ex-AC to “admit” that he used me and lied to me on and off for five years – needless to say, that didn’t happen. Did I NEED him to admit that?! Hell no! Just the statement of, “I was in a five year yo-yo debacle with a man that promised stuff he never intended on delivering on in order to get me to sleep with him and then vanished into thin air.” is more than enough evidence to OPT THE FRICK OUT.
Exactly Natasha. I’ve met some great looking really nice guys who are still very nice guys, that I wasn’t interested in them. Thankfully they didn’t spend years wondering why I wasn’t available or interested. There’s a lesson in there!
Exactly! We’ve been friends for years now, so he’s witnessed the bulk of my ex-AC hot mess and he’d say, “Natasha, Natasha…why do you CARE why this guy acts like an asshole? I’ll tell you why, just to save you some trouble. Because he is an asshole.” and I would sit there thinking, “Well, no decent guy wants me!” when, ironically enough, I was moaning to a thoroughly decent guy who was interested in me at one point. The low self esteem lense, I tell you, it’s like a kaleidescope of dysfunction and it’s best just to PUT THE DAMN THING DOWN.
That’s a super concept: the kaleidescope of dysfunction! Love it.
This is a great post. I remember I came to your site looking for answers too, and I remember at the time it really made a huge difference to me whether he was not interested or emotionally unavailable. To me it meant two things. If he was emotionally unavailable, something was wrong with HIM and it wasn’t my fault. If he wasn’t interested, then something was wrong with ME and it was my fault.
After following your site for a good six months now I’ve learned enough to know that it doesn’t matter either way. Sure, maybe knowing he is emotionally unavailable helped me get past him in those first few agonizing weeks, but now I understand that either way I should have stopped pursuing and moved along.
It definitely takes a good level of self esteem to not take it personally. My self esteem has improved, so now I understand that there are others out there, and not everyone is going to like us just as we aren’t going to like everyone. With this outlook I know I deserve more than crumbs – I deserve 100% interest and availability.
I have the same need for distinction between the two as well. Maybe it’s an ego thing I don’t know, but my self esteem is so bad that I doubt it. Maybe a fear of rejection because if it’s EU then it’s not a personal rejection.
Lavender – Isn’t it strange how when we have low self esteem we take a very self-centered view as if we HAD an ego? Thinking everyone’s actions were derived from us? Thinking everyone must like us, or else we are worthless? It’s like being on the dark, opposite side of the narcissist coin.
I know for me my low self esteem definitely made me fear rejection. When the ego barely exists, anything perceived as rejection can do huge damage, and so I needed to make sure it wasn’t me. When I did think it was me, I fell into depression, as if the validation from this one man basically defined my entire worth.
From your comment below I see what that man did to you was absolutely cruel. To tell you it was your fault is just a cowardly way for the actual no-good-doer to release himself of blame and guilt. Don’t let someone who acts like a child define your self worth. There are many good men out there that don’t act like this.
What helped me get through was looking at myself as a human being who is allowed to make mistakes. With low self esteem that voice in the head can be a cruel critic. I know it’s difficult, but focus on yourself. Keep reminding yourself that you deserve better than a user, and that you are better off without him in your life. Big hugs.
” Isn’t it strange how when we have low self esteem we take a very self-centered view as if we HAD an ego? Thinking everyone’s actions were derived from us? Thinking everyone must like us, or else we are worthless? It’s like being on the dark, opposite side of the narcissist coin.”
Very well put Lavender. The thing is, even with low self-esteem, it is letting our ego and imagination take over that keeps us holding on. It’s like “Damn you! You will not reject me. I will make you like and love me. I’m not going until you do!”
“Isn’t it strange how when we have low self esteem we take a very self-centered view as if we HAD an ego? Thinking everyone’s actions were derived from us? Thinking everyone must like us, or else we are worthless? It’s like being on the dark, opposite side of the narcissist coin.”
Me in a nutshell. It’s something I still struggle with, but I’ve made so much progress over the past 5 years. It’s funny, looking back, that it IS the opposite side of the coin, except that….. well, for me at least….. I didn’t even MEAN to be narcissistic. But it makes sense – I thought everything negative was my fault, which is the opposite of someone who self-aggrandizes, yet my focus was still on me & how much I f—ed up & how stupid/horrible/ugly/etc I was. TeaTime, thank you for verbalizing this in a way that I wasn’t able to.
@TeaTime: “…….If he was emotionally unavailable, something was wrong with HIM and it wasn’t my fault. If he wasn’t interested, then something was wrong with ME and it was my fault.”
Exactly! And yes to the issue of self-esteem (or lack thereof) having something to do with this. Hard, too, when you are trying to move on but have to work in the same building as the person you would like to leave behind. He used to go back and forth between smiling at me as we walked passed one another (awkward-like to ships passing in the night) and staring straight ahead as if I were a bad smell. I got different advice from different friends: some said to smile cheerily and say hi, while others said that would only make me look like a fool. I think NML would probably say it matters not which way I behave, anymore than it matters whether he was EU or just not into me.
You’re right TeaTime that it does take having a bit more self-esteem. It’s a chicken and egg situation – the more time you invest in someone else’s unavailability or disinterest, the crappier you feel. Why are we investing in rejection? It is a guarantee of feeling crap!
Great post – I need to read this about a million times to get it through my thick head. I was involved with a huge user and he told me repeatedly that it was my fault. A huge part of me still thinks it was, which is why I spend so much time reading your great posts. It’s really such a waste of a life to think the way that I do. I see that I do it, but I can’t stop it. I really feel like I am wasting my life because I don’t get this. All your posts are great Nat, but the last three have been particularly great for my situation.
Lavender, you don’t *have* to think this way but initially it takes very conscious effort to intervene on the habit of berating the crap out of oneself and investing in rejection.
This post was exactly what I needed to hear, right now – today. I am dating a “wonderful” guy. Ha, well, let me clarify. It is wonderful when he feels like being available and decides to check himself in to me. When he does, it’s so delicious that I could have ordered him off a menu! But — not so wonderful when I expect any sort of consistency or mutual investment in growing a relationship – the next day he might not even answer an E mail. You are so right on the money. I do not seem to do well with “random availability as determined by the guy”. This is not a relationship. Sometimes I feel adored, sometimes cast by the wayside. It is crazy making. Sometimes I have wondered, how can I get traction here? How can I make the good parts last? The answer: I cannot. It’s about him. (Where’s my parachute?) I am really glad I discovered your blog. So many of your insightful posts are quite relevant to me.
Haha Kay – as soon as you have to try to work out how to make the good times increase and gain traction, you’ve got problems. Hot and cold right there!
Nat,
As many have said before, you do have uncanny timing. Thank you. Just thank you. Slowly but surely, I am starting to get it. It hurts and it’s supposed to but I am starting to get it. Man, I am a tough nut to crack.
Lisa
You’re welcome Lisa hugs xx
I never thought to blame myself, look for a fix-all solution or think I had anything to do with my EUM’s behavior. He was the type of EUM that paid alot of attention, went out of his way to do things & spent each & every day as if you were his “girlfriend”….& 1 day out of the blue turns his back & walks away – & says it’s over. I AM JUST MAD, MAD, MAD….& makes me SO VERY SAD that he led me to believe, for 5 yrs, that he loved & cared for me!!! That is what I’m struggling with – is the fact he was not “in love” with me. It only left me with the in-ability to ever be able to trust another guy! It’s so sad how they can’t break your heart & ruin your trust in mankind – while they walk away, like it’s just another relationship gone bad. But, it’s not the same as just 2 people not working out — these guys mislead & used you for their own benefit. So as that song goes – What becomes of the broken hearted?
ElleJaeP, i’m sorry that you’re hurting. I highly recommend that you walk your way through the relationship slowly in your mind – you will see indicators that all was not well. Five years is an extremely long time to put on a performance without so much as a fuck up. Think back.
I can’t say everything was “perfect”. But, it was a HUGH shocker when he called it off, that he claimed he was never “In Love” with me. He said he loved & cared for me more then anyone…..but not “in love”. Even though I was considered his g/f & we talked or spent time everyday. I’m truly beginning to think he does not know HOW to be “in love” – so he claims he never was.
I came to BR when I was searching for a translation of “he said he needs space.” Well, the Spaceman got the shock of his life (and promptly ran back to his FBG, LOL) when Nat explained it all. In retrospect, his whining and his random emails were hilarious.
About intermittent rewards that ACs dole out, or drip out, remember that this is the proven way to guarantee a response. Dr Skinner showed it with his rats in the box: they pressed that lever more for occasional rewards than they did for steady payment. So don’t get caught up like the little rodents.
NC will help you to break free and walk free.
Thank you, Nat.
Hilarious SaraK! I think that’s maybe one of the most fundamental things that we miss – if we opt out and refuse to put up with their behaviour, they’ll just move on to someone else they have in their back pocket for rainy days. This is why we have to let go of the idea that love is about forcing someone to change or even just expecting change. That’s not love – it’s control and ego.
As always, Natalia hits it right on the head. We, as women, like to analyze everything about the guy in order to find a rationalization as to why he isn’t telling us that he is in love with us/loves us/wants to be exclusive/calling us by an endearment instead of just our first name/introducing us as his girlfriend instead of by our first name or worse yet, as “my friend,” etc. We certainly prefer to believe that the creep is “unavailable” rather than that he isn’t into us to the degree necessary for a mutually loving, exciting, relaxing, caring, considerate, tender, and monogamous relationship.
I’ve come to grips with the fact that guys (I don’t even call them “men” anymore – they’re just guys) are NOT “unavailable.” What they are is unwilling to be with just ONE woman and to be monogamous. The Internet, porn on the Internet, web sites for cheating – and yes, web sites for “dating,” have DESENSITIZED them to all human emotion that involves loving and love. All they care about is sex. Face it, ladies, we are all being treated like prostitutes, since all they want from us is sex – except that a professional prostitute at least gets paid for her trouble, and we don’t get anything out of being with these guys other than emotional pain and heartache. That is why, I, for one, got off the dating merry-go-round and I don’t date. Yep, I’ve gained 30 pounds, I’m unhappy and lonely in the part of my personal life that deals with “in love/love” and a life partner, but at least I don’t have to be crying my eyes out every time I have to leave what I thought was a relationship or where the guy does the walking (it’s usually been me doing the walking, but that’s because I could read the signs that he wanted out and I have too much pride to stay under those circumstances).
I hope other ladies have a much better time than I have had.
Hi Terry,
I don’t think this post supports: “We certainly prefer to believe that the creep is “unavailable” rather than that he isn’t into us to the degree necessary…” in the sense that there is no such thing as unavailability. I agree that there are a lot of messages out there encouraging men to shun monogamy, but I have also encountered my share of monogamous “unavailables,” who stick to one woman to whom they’ll promise (or deliver) about 60% of the moon.
There is a difference between “unavailable” and available but not wanting to date a particular person.
Your beliefs about the entirety of “guys” are understandable – it sounds like you’ve had experiences to support them. I have my own generalizations that I struggle to overcome; many of us do.
I hope you’ll stick around – no one here will pressure you to start dating but you will get a lot of encouragement around getting out of that “unhappy and lonely” place. Seriously, stick around and feel the love and eventually you may even begin to believe you can feel it from the opposite sex.
Well always remember Terry that unavailability affects both sexes. There are a lot of guys as you describe but equally there are plenty that are not. When I wore unavailable goggles, they were all I saw or was interested in. Funny now I see and know many available people and see relationships happening all the time. Take time for you, heal, learn what you need to and let go of the anger and distrust when you’re ready.
Nat
It’s true, nowadays I see healthy relationships around me all the time. Even amongst the very young. Either (i) the world has changed dramatically or (ii) I have and I see things differently. By the way, the divorce rate is falling so that’s another nail in the coffin of cynicism.
True – the divorce rate was last at its highest in the eighties. The fear of divorce is rooted in a bad perm era.
Hear hear! The boyfriend and i were in practically identical situations before we got together. Both with EU people, both long distance, both at the point of “sod this for a game of soliders!”. There are indeed decent, available, guys out there who get involved with EU women and get messed around too.
I found that when i started thinking that i truly deserved to be with someone decent, the ACs became totally unappealing to me. It was then just a case of having an absolute blast and embracing singledom until a good one came along. 6 months and still going strong. 🙂
Well I agree with a lot of what you’ve said even if it is a little cynical and there ARE nice guys out there.
But I don’t agree with the part about you gaining weight! There’s no reason for that! I’ve struggled with my weight too and if you let your Rs with ACs affect it so much you will always have a problem with it. I can tell we are similar. I’ve learned to take pride in my health and weight and being attractive no matter what the f is going on with a guy. Why should you punish yourself and get fat because of men??? You should revel in being sexy and healthy for yourSELF. It will feel great and you don’t need to go search out some AC to prove to yourself than men only want you for sex. jmo
RozB
I’ve been celibate for five years (maybe it’s six now) and take care of my body. I eat well (usually) and exercise. I’ve always done this for myself, it makes me feel better. And it means I can wear (most of) the fashions I like. It has nothing to do with men.
The nice thing about celibacy is that I no longer feel that I have a horse in the whole sexual attraction/dating/flirting arena. I feel completely myself. Another five (or six) years and I might be ready to share my complete myself with a man. Watch this space.
@Kay…he’s not into you! Except for a booty call. Been there, could print the tee shirt. Men who love and respect women…act like it!
Nat is right on the money as usual.
I’m going on one year without a boyfriend, longest in my life. MY choice- a variety of unsuitable men have sniffed around. They don’t get further than 2 dates. Guys I thought were cool played it cool. Being a student of Nat’s I know that playing it cool means=he ain’t into you. Just deleted my Plenty of Fish profile tired of men playing games it takes two to play. So single I shall remain.
Amen Flower White – some people are playing it so cool, they’re an ice block. You don’t need ambiguity or games.
All of those free date sites are disappointing, I would rather pay for one like Marriage minded people meet or a Serious match maker in my area now, I mean sure they cost $ but the guy has to pay $ too, and maybe better chance of meeting someone who’s mind is already getting prepared for a commitment?
This great article reminds of all the sucker sites that promise “How to Get your EX Back! WHY BOTHER!!!! We women need to learn to say the word…NEXT 0r Good Riddance when we get dumped by Ass Clowns. I have spent too much time trying to figure out a messy man when I should have had my head examined as to why I was attracted to him the first place. I guess it was sex withdrawal and did not see the error of my ways. Thanks Again!
Indeed Valley Forge Lady – unless the reasons that broke a relationship no longer exist, trying to catch an ex is like investing in living in the past. It’s like “let me spend some money on avoiding moving forward”
Before I found BR, I was reading some of that stuff about how to get your ex back. Unfortunately, they are written in such a way as to make it sound like all the woman has to do is act differently, and therefore the reasons the relationship didn’t work, will change, and she can get him back. I bought into, and even tried this, for 4 months, with my ex-AC, and it got me nowhere. But, I have to say I really believed, at the time, that his lack of interest was my fault.
Now that I have been reading BR, I have learned so much wisdom from Nat and other women, that is contrary to all the “get your ex back” insipid advice.
This site could be subtitled “How to Get Your Next Back”!
First, thank you, NML, for helping keep us strong. We’ve talked about songs that inspire us to put the past behind us and move on. I don’t relate to a lot of them, but this one really spoke to my heart. It’s by Melanie Fiona and is called “Ay Yo”. I dare you not to sing along!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=td6CnGR36Eo
“How to Get Your Next Back”! – hilarious!
This article is timely and spot on. I’ve been having an ambiguous dynamic with a colleague. We became closer this year and started texting often. He had suggested hanging out a few times and catching movies. When I travelled, he would check in on me every few days. With all the conversations, care and attention, I started to develop feelings for him. But he pulls away at times, and has stopped initiating meet-ups. Every now and them, he would still text and enquire about how I am. I started to romanticize the situation, and have just ended up getting hurt when he pulls away and acts differently. His past relationships have not worked out well and I get a sense that he is not emotionally available, but I was still hopeful. I guess it’s time to save myself the pain, tell myself I deserve better and move away from this confusing place. But I will miss the friendship.
Hey Mae,
Speaking from experience, a friendship with an ulterior motive, isn’t really a friendship. I’ve had this happen before with so called male ‘friends’, who are very ‘there for you’ when they want something from you (to get in your knickers usually), but when you consistently maintain your boundaries, they soon dribble off into nothing.
Friendships, like relationships, have to be consistent and unconditional, or they’re not worth having. I’ve recently lost a few male ‘friends’ who found out i am now in a stable relationship and just don’t bother conacting me anymore, whereas they were super attentive before, always inviting me out to places. They weren’t really friends at all. Although i do miss the attention, i think i’m definitely better off without them.
Yeah Mae, I feel for you but confusing is akin to ambiguous is akin to unavailable. No-one is ambiguous about their interest. You deserve better than being toyed with.
Thank you, Natalie and Minky. There is some frustration over the fact that I was careful at start not to get emotionally involved too quickly, yet I found myself in this situation. I never expected a friend to put me through this. Minky, what you said made a lot of sense. If a friendship is inconsistent, then it’s not a friendship I can depend on anyway. Right now, just trying to get my emotions to catch up with the logic in my head! And for the hurt to go away.
Give yourself time Mae. You have to grieve the loss of the relationship which means it’ll hurt first before it will get better.
Before I read this post, I was actually mad at myself that I didn’t settle for the half interest. I was driving myself crazy asking: Was it real for him? How could I mess this up? Why isn’t he fighting for us? How can he leave so easily?
I fantasized about us being the new “power couple” – we’re both in entertainment. When the fact is I just wasn’t his cup of tea. I was “benefitting” from the perks of the relationship (so was he, no doubt) but he refused to commit. Kept asking me to go with the flow. Told me I was on the raft but I needed to join him on the ship.
He saw other suiters but was unfazed. I was like what’s wrong with him? Doesn’t he see that other men want me? Most times I was like what’s wrong with me? I felt like I was constantly trying to prove to him that I’m worthy of his commitment. I held on to the tiny investments he made to the relationship that he refused to call a relationship for dear life . He’ll change. He’ll get there. Hang in there…
I need to take this time to work on improving me rather than trying to figure out if this was real or not for him. He was unavailable and/or half interested. Period. That should have been enough for me to move on, but all I did was threaten to leave. Now, he’s moved on instead. I guess the result is the same. Maybe the next time I will have the courage to only settle for 100%. Sigh…
Thanks for this post.
Lindsey, I think all the things you found yourself doing were signs in themselves that this relationship wasn’t right. The trouble with threatening to leave is that it’s immediately hollow and somewhat manipulative and they also immediately learn that you’re not being serious otherwise you’d be off already, not talking about it.
Yep. He learned pretty quickly that I wasn’t serious about leaving else I wouldn’t have been talking about it so much.
Sure could use a some advice on the healing process. Right now, I just feel terribly hurt and embarrassed that I allowed myself to go there when I knew things weren’t right. I acted desperate and manipulative. I feel used and played.
This really sucks.
A lot of times some women (myself included) believe we can love enough for the both of us, believe in him (even if he doesn’t believe in himself) to come around to that mature, emotionally stable man and in the end we end up disappointed and feel its something we’ve done to push him away or turned him off before a relationship can blossom. It also feels like a kick in the teeth when an emotionally unavailable man chooses a girlfriend because it does make you think ” well, what is it about her that makes him see her as relationship material and not me? “.
Takes me back to a statement you made about how to not envy the woman who ends up with a Mr. Unavailable, she may be his karma. What did you mean by that statement Natalie? Whether the chosen girlfriend is just as immature, attachment issues, she is the chosen one, he chooses to be with this person. There must be something about her that his ” options ” don’t fulfill or measure up to. Right?
I too found myself involved with a guy that I believe was a narcissist, he was emotionally and verbally abusive and I for sure felt as if I was the one crazy, psycho and insane as he’d called me many times. The girlfriend, now his baby mama is just as vulgar, controlling, insecure as he. Still, there must be something about her to make him want to be with her or always go back to her.
“Whether the chosen girlfriend is just as immature, attachment issues, she is the chosen one, he chooses to be with this person. There must be something about her that his ” options ” don’t fulfill or measure up to. Right?”
I don’t think this is right, no. I replied to something similar on another post. It’s not a case of him choosing this woman – he is choosing HIMSELF. And you chose to walk away from him, because he couldn’t give you what you want. He doesn’t want to be the kind of man who can give you a fulfilling relationship, he wants to be the kind of man who does the bare minimum and reaps all the benefits. That is what he is choosing, not this woman. She just enables him to be like that.
You’re giving him too much credit and putting him on a pedestal by feeling like you’re missing out. He’s missing out on you because you opted out and went NC and got off the merry-go-round. Who cares what his motivations are, when he wasn’t good enough for you in the first place? Hugs!
“He is choosing HIMSELF.” Minky you are absolutely right! And when someone wants to be absolved of a real relationship he will find the perfect mark, often an immature, naive girl he can take advantage of. In my case I even heard the words “immature” and “naive” come out of his mouth about her!
Choosing himself indeed Minky!
Indeed 🙂 Since I’ve been in No Contact and I’m not full of warm and fuzzy feelings, confusion and etc, I can see him for the type of guy he had always been. Its a crazy thing to tell you the truth how you can be so infatuated, blinded that you ignore all the red flags, but once you opt out, stop the insanity and see things ” As Is “, you get a better perspective. With this guy I was always looking for reasons, excuses to blame myself for his behavior and that is over! I’m relieved he’s someone elses problem, not mine 🙂
Great post Minky. Really tough to figure out when you are smack bang in the middle of it but totally agree … sounds a classic case of “All sizzle and no steak”, until they figure out and acknowledge their inner issues or stop being so self absorbed or gun-shy the person they are involved with will always get burnt. Oh yeah we are so wise now hehe
Janine, I’m confused. Are you asking me to tell you how to hold on to someone you basically call a verbally and mentally abusive narcissist? Or are you asking me why a verbally and mentally abusive narcissist moved on to someone else and chose not to continue being with you?
No way Nat, I’m in No Contact!! You’ve given me a whole new perspective on how to establish self-love 🙂 I guess what I was really asking, Minky above said it perfectly ” He’s choosing himself ” and he’s chosen someone who mirrors himself. By not allowing himself to have a fulfilling relationship, ruining his own chances at finding and establishing the hallmarks of a healthy relationship, choosing his ” mirror”, isn’t that his karma coming to roost?
Yep I found this site a couple times before I finally checked into it. I was looking for answers and this was one of the top sites that kept showing up. It became very clear yesterday that I’m still working out my mother’s voice in my head. I was upset over something totally unrelated to a M.A.N. I was crying (venting really in frustration over this chronic disease I’ve had majority of my life) and her ever familiar phrase comes out of her mouth: You just wait, one day a man will come along and take care of you.
She’s been saying that to me since I started dating as a young teenager! No man is going to “take care of me”. Sure it’ll be nice to have one be on the same page with me and be SUPPORTIVE. But take care of me?? That’s old school. It came up in another conversation with some acquaintances last night. All are married except two of us and they wanted to know my thoughts about relationships these days. I told them it is not my GOAL in life to meet a man and get married. If/when I do, that’ll be great but it isn’t the end all be all. If this so-called man of my dreams were to walk through the proverbial door right now, I’d have to say let me put you on pause because I am not ready for you yet. With my most recent experience, however, I did catch myself interrupting a man while he was talking to me because I was excited to talk to him. This may have been a turn off. Silly me still banging my head trying to figure out why why why why….. ahhh I’m pooped already.
Colororange, I doubt it was a turn off. My mother used to say the same stuff. It’s symptomatic of another generation. I stopped taking it to heart – clearly you’re more than able to take care of yourself so a relationship shouldn’t incapacitate you suddenly. You don’t need to offload yourself to someone – now you can get on with feeling good about you and in time forging a mutually fulfilling relationship.
I said something so similar to this statement recently = “Your job in life is not to turn a pigs ear into a silk purse or to keep pitching yourself like a used car salesperson to batter and override their objections until they eventually become interested/available.”
Only I said = “It’s no longer my job to give anyone an ego boost at my expense or to wait around in some rocking chair while they are out doing god only knows what, which is exaclty what I had always done, Besides the begging for love – I mean begging for crumbs ordeal.
Almost 5 years ago after having getting involved with what I now think may have even been a dangerous sociopath, I had no idea then how afraid that would really make me of men in general – There are more reasons than just the day your currently when it comes to avoiding the wrong guys, It makes it harder to move on after that.
You really DO need to be careful with your head and your memories, And how far you let things go, I used to let things go too far just to see how far they would actually go if given the chance… “Oh boy BIG mistake – Like Duh?”
At least my latest unavailable crush was a good person, ( very good morals and values ) But he has his own scars to heal – Men really do get screwed over and jerked around too, They need time to get things right with themselves and their self esteem.
I know that I needed ans till need some time alone as much as it sucks to go without sex, or being touched or held. I needed to be with myself first and had a lot of old wounds to lick that I tried to ignore, “I even went for a long period just being/feeling numb”.. I still need time before jumping into the dating game, More than I realized, I can’t measure this by years, emotional readiness doesn’t care how much time has passed – I do KNOW that I am done playing games with myself.
I want the real thing way too much, I just came to a point where I need depth like never before, I want to be able to really give a sh*t and have that returned to me, But in the right time frame.
Right now I dont think I would appreciate someone rushing me, becasue I want this education first, I want to be sure all of this has really sank in and that I have a better handle on the warning signs and that my self esteem is in the right place.
I’ve been in some weird mourning stage – I’m loosing my old self and…
I think it’s natural to feel cautious and distrusting Brenda especially after this type of involvement and especially if you stayed long past realising all was not well. However confidence actually comes from discovering your boundaries, acting upon them and also treating yourself well, which includes trusting you. You can’t learn to trust you if you live in a position of never giving yourself the responsibility. You earn your own trust when you’re humble enough to admit you’ve made a mistake and act upon the information.
Yes that has been the hardest part putting things ( My true self ) into real action- and even said that to someone recently… I can be sort of intimidating when I speak my mind maybe? Kinda not so submissive and actually kind of aggressive? I’m afraid of emasculating men actually come to think of it, But guess I need to stop being worried about that, I mean heck it turns ME on to not be a wussy doormat.
I do know I have made many mistakes – Trying those crazy ideas of being more ‘open minded’ and all of that BS we get fed – Umm no none of it worked for ME folks, and yes I feel stupid for having ever listened in the first place, Truth is I really wanted to slap the sh*t outta people sometimes, verbally and then some.
Actually I’m afraid I could start to have too much fun once this thing gets rolling.
This is where I am at with my thinking – it really doesn’t matter either way! And let’s be honest, the two issues: availability and interest overlap anyway. When you feel self-confident and open to life, people seem more attractive and less scary. When you’re feeling defensive, afraid, and obsessed with your own importance in the world, people seem threatening – like stage-space-stealers – or as free money to take to chuff-up your ego. The first is about mutuality, as NML says; the second combat and entitlement.
I feel like I have gotten to the point where I don’t care if someone rejects me, and I say that having gotten out of the point where that was defensive rubbish – ie I didn’t care because I wasn’t putting myself out there anyway (so I clearly did care very much!). Now, I feel like building self-esteem, small acts of boundary-enforcing, seeing the good in others, focusing on the things I love and am good at, being healthy, and being generous with friends and family are better ways of using my energy and time (than, for instance, worrying about exes or parents or other people who have apparently wronged me and their motivations). I can see my progress, and that builds on itself. This, I believe, gets us to being available AND interested.
For what it’s worth, the reasons I have left relationships or decided not to start things with people have ranged from the fairly reasonable (we do have to accept, as Natalie says, that we’re not everyone’s crumpet ; )) to the ridiculous: lack of (shared) humour, fear about my expected role as a woman, wanting to travel and be unattached, fear of being criticised or potentially rejected, feeling lonely because communication style so different, feeling too young and inadequate to settle down, feeling the power dynamics were off, orange socks, feeling angry and low about my work/future etc, not liking their relationship habits (tantrum-throwing, controlling, aggresssion, selfishness etc), feeling scared I would hurt someone. I have just noticed now that these are a mix of my availability and my interest, and sometimes what the person was doing was real (as much as we can know this), and sometimes it was more my perception and where I was at the time. Must be the same for the guys who’ve passed me up!
But don’t get me wrong, I too first came to the site because I was in the headspace of ‘WTF just happened?’ Was I just majorly had by an AC or was I deluding myself (crazy)? Turns out it was both, and then just bad luck – all that other stuff we can’t control (i.e. how people perceive us, where they’re at in life, their built-up relationship habits, how they see their own abilities and desires, timing, geography, when you’ve appeared in their life and who you’ve followed etc.)
Ah, the dreaded orange socks. Total buzzkill.
Ah Natalie, another wise post! 🙂
One of the things I’m thankful for is all the crap I’d gone through because I’ve learned so much from my mistakes and one of them is this very recent post. I learned that you can’t force someone to like or love you, just like you can’t force a round peg into a square hole. Or is it the other way around? 🙂
Nevertheless, it was a rude awakening for me and I’m so glad I learned it early on in life. Now, I see men who likes me romantically and I don’t feel the same about them… and I see them trying so hard and I could actually see myself in those men who were trying so hard to fit me into their lives when I could care less. Sometimes, telling these men the truth are just too brutal to their ego… but it’s the honest truth and I am gentle with them.
Thank you for your wisdom and thank you for allowing us to respond so we may teach the ones who are going through and about to go through this very lesson.
Shelly
Hmm, I’m not sure I entirely agree with this premise. I think, actually, it is important to be able to discern whether the person is unavailable or not interested — not to navel-gaze, but for self-edification and to make adjustments.
If a person is searching for a job, and sends out resume after resume, but gets no response or told their qualifications don’t match, that is rejection (no interest). Likewise, if the person gets past the resume stage, to the interview, and maybe a test or another interview after that, and is then told they do not get the job, that is also rejection, but of a different sort, and it could be likened to a man who seems interested in what you have to offer, “tries you out” for a little while, but ultimately tells you to piss off.
In both scenarios, the outcome is the same — you don’t get the job. But if you’re in scenario number one, you can either overhaul your resume, because it is not getting you results, or you can start applying to jobs a little lower on the totem pole and see if that works. In the second case, if you are getting to the interview stage, you can brush up on your skills in that area. So while the outcome is the same, learning which one it is can help you in the long run.
I think that it is very important for an individual to pinpoint whether she is constantly finding unavailable men or constantly meeting rejection. In that way, tactics can be adjusted or expectations lowered. I am probably very luck in that I’ve run into few unavailable men who wanted to “use” me. Most of my dating life has consisted of men going on a date or two, and saying “Nah, she’s not it” and telling me so. The last guy I truly liked dated me for four months, then dumped me saying he wasn’t into it after all. This weekend, after two years, I ran into him, the woman he has now married, and their twin daughters. It laid me low. I have to figure out why I seem to keep getting drawn to men who reject me. So saying it doesn’t matter whether it is rejection or unavailability seems short-sighted to me, because that will take away my chance to reflect and make adjustments.
But Mariana, as has been said thousands of times in so many ways on this blog if you want someone that is unavailable or not interested and you persist, you have to question your own availability, boundaries, and standards….That has nothing to do with investigating and focusing the crap out of someone else.
@NML – Yes, this is a good reality check!
Mariana
You say you’ve run into “few” unavailable men but also say “I seem to be drawn to men that reject me”. That’s a contradiction. You’re either involving yourself with men who aren’t interested/available or you’re not. If it’s a) you need to ask yourself why so you can stop. If it’s b), sorry, I can’t help. I’ve no experience of being emotionally healthy and looking for a proper relationship, and only getting involved with men who are the same. I have seen that work out for other people though. I know a man who is 22, living with his girlfriend who he says he will marry. My friend’s husband married her when he was in his 20s, she was his second girlfriend and only because the first one died, still together 15 years later. Female friend married her childhood sweetheart. They got divorced over ten years later, now she’s expecting a child with her second boyfriend. I think people who genuinely want a good relationship will find one. Even if it doesnt’ always work out, they won’t have a string of disasters. If it’s a lot of failures, in a way you are right, you’re doing something “wrong”. You could be habitually picking men who aren’t interested/unavailable (doesn’t matter which). Like Ulrika Jonsson who admitted that one day she just got tired of the drama. Or you’re doing something ridiculous like showing him pictures of wedding dresses on date 3. Only you can tell which it is.
If someone you were with for four months breaks up with you and marries someone else, that’s life. It’s not unusual and doesn’t define you. It doesn’t mean that there’s anything wrong with you. Mind you, if you’ve been carrying a torch for him for two years that rules you out for another relationship.
Marianna I totally get what you’re saying, and Natalie as well. For the latter, it doesn’t matter why, just don’t stick around and beg or settle for crumbs.
I have low self-esteem when it comes to relationships and it effects how I act. I’m terrified of rejection and therefore can also have a defensive, cold and sometimes tough demeanor in order to protect myself (another reason behind EU behaviour). I want to be the woman that guys fall for, need the ego boost, need feedback that tells me I’m a catch. When relationships constantly fizzle out, I have to take responsibility for my part. I don’t fix the self-esteem issue I’m not going to succeed.
So I see from your point that constantly being rejected isn’t necessarily just because you’re not someone’s cup of tea and shouldn’t always be put in that box – working on self-improvement to change the dynamics, for both who you’re attracting and how you’re being perceived, is in order.
Oriana, aside from all over the other reasons I’ve mentioned on this post and all over the blog, there is one *fundamental* reason why I’d be very cautious of investing your life into the pursuing of a BA Hons in Why Is He Unavailable & Not Interested – unless you’re looking for ways to make yourself more marketable to *unavailable* or disinterested men, the best use of your energy is to address your own unavailability and your own self-esteem. If you put energy into that, you’d soon rectify *any* major issues that get in the way of having a mutually fulfilling healthy relationship.
Oh yeah Natalie, I wasn’t saying otherwise. I have issues, no doubt, so that even if I met someone who was available chances of it working out would be slim.
Somewhere on this blog you have a topic about “If he rejects you, does it mean he’s an assclown” – something to that effect. I haven’t yet it for a while so excuse me if I’m off, but sometimes I think there is a thin line where any type of rejection (which isn’t always smooth and easy, even with the best intentions) is automatically blamed on AC and/or EU, or that we’ve ignored/allowed bad treatment. Granted that most of the behaviour discussed here is clearly in the realm of AC/EU, I rarely hear confessions of “Hey I fart and burp and pick my nose and he dumped me”, if you know what I mean.
I know that some of the men who have rejected me are in perfectly good relationships with someone else, and I know for a fact that my general energy, which is plagued by self-esteem and fear issues, can turn men – good or bad – away.
I agree Oriana. Just like every person that breaks up isn’t unavailable or an assclown, neither is every person that’s not interested. It would be very egotistical for people to think ‘All people who are not interested in me are unavailable’. But someone who isn’t interested cannot meet your needs so if you hang around them like a blue arsed fly trying to make them interested or working on that degree, you’re unavailable for an available relationship.
This post isn’t about nailing all uninterested parties as unavailable which is why there was a differentiation between the two. Either way, neither party can give you what you want – that’s the point.
Yes I know. I was just responding to Marianna’s post and I could understand what she was getting at. It’s about a pattern of rejection which may have to do with a need for self-improvement – not necessarily just in the self-esteem department. If I pick my nose on dates and constantly get rejected, then maybe I should do something about that.
This is a thought that sometimes runs through my mind: The women who comment here amaze me with their insight, but probably due to the general theme of this blog, accusations fly about other’s bad behaviour and how we deal with it. We fail by staying, begging, we beat ourselves up, whatever. And “they” do this horrible thing and “they” do that horrible thing. What I rarely ever, ever hear is that maybe some aspect of our personality turned someone off . That doesn’t excuse someone of taking advantage of us or treating us like poo and us letting them, for sure.
This site is very, very empowering and your batting average of hitting the nail on the head is 100%. I’m not criticizing.
“What I rarely ever, ever hear is that maybe some aspect of our personality turned someone off . ”
Sorry I don’t mean to undermine all the great work here – no we don’t need to scrutinize every thing about ourselves to figure out why someone left, yes it usually has nothing to do with something we did or said or whatever, and yes we have to stop beating ourselves up, absolutely!
Please note that I was specifically referring to a conversation about a “pattern” of being rejected – which may or may not include aspects of ourselves that need improvement, and as I said, not just regarding self-esteem.
Going off topic too much but didn’t want what I said to be taken the wrong way. There are many aspects to this minor point but I’m not Natalie and can’t say what I want to say as eloquently and concisely.
Oriana, I don’t think you’re criticising me – you disagree and have a different perspective. I disagree with you but I’m not criticising you either. You’ve got to do what works for you.
I think to illustrate your point, 3 readers have recently got in touch with me. One says she’s rejected by guys that she’s interested in but is never interested in guys who are interested in her, the next says she always gets rejected by guys that by her own admission are showy assclowns, and the others says she’s being ‘rejected’ by attached men. I’m sorry Oriana, but I’m not about to say to anyone “Please go and change an aspect of your personality”.
My personality is very much the same. I’m finally consistent. The me of old, would start out one way and then adapt, morph, etc so that I ended up dampening who I was. I had low self-esteem and was insecure that because I was too smart, or too outgoing, or too something or not enough this or not enough that, that I should tweak my personality. That’s bullshit and as Jennynic pointed out, completely inauthentic. All of us can improve ourselves – we’re works in progress but I will never, ever, suggest to anyone that they use rejection and the perceived opinions of those who are not interested/unavailable as a launchpad for changing their personality. Change your love habits, change how you feel about you.
If it’s a personality issue, how the frick are assclowns, especially abusers getting anywhere?
NML
I had a rabbit. She was shy, nervous, aggressive, hormonal, very occasionally affectionate (on her own terms), bore grudges (really), and was easily offended. She bit me when I tried to put her back in her hutch. Then hopped straight in because she’d made her point. She didn’t like the abusive ex I was living with at the time. Everytime he went near her, she moved away. Smart bunny. The only way I knew she liked me was that she would let me sit next to her. I loved her because she was so completely herself. Someone is gonna love you for yourself.
If we were all picking men/women who display no red flags at all and still getting dumped, I concede it may be something we’re doing wrong. But surely, these decent men/women would take the time to tell us what it is? It wouldn’t be a mystery. I’ve seen outright spoilt, demanding, argumentative women with men who dote on them. I’ve also seen the prettiest, sweetest, loveliest girls dumped and cheated on. And, no, this is not an instruction to be a biyatch!
If your relationships are red flag city, that’s what needs to be looked at. Whatever your personality, an AC/EU person is gonna do what he’s gonna do. Did my AC push me down the stairs because of my personality? Did the player play around because of my personality? After much reflection I can safely say … NO. And why the frick would I want to change my personality to keep twerps anyway? Answers on a postcard …
Totally agree Grace and well done to the bunny for sussing the AC. A number of the things that I believed were ‘scaring’ off men I shouldn’t have been holding on to anyway, are things that the boyf is unphased by or even adores. The examples about pushing you down the stairs etc really highlight just how ridiculous it is to reduce someone else’s behaviour down to a flaw in our personality. A friend of mine is loud, opinionated, argumentative, snobbish at times, bossy, very clever, generous, loving and sometimes let’s things slip because she has a big mouth. I love her dearly and she’s also loved dearly by her husband who raises his eyebrows or backs out of the room sometimes.
Grace, your rabbit sounds like she was just like my seven month old puppy! He’s an english bulldog, so he’s very affectionate if he likes you, but if he doesn’t he will sit in the corner with his back to whoever has offended him. I always say he’s one of the best judges of character around! In fact, when he met my ex-AC, he looked at him, looked at me with a look of “Girl, this guy is a phony. We don’t have time for this mess.”, farted loudly and tucked himself into my bed (which is not allowed, so I knew he was truly put out) for a three hour nap. It was a highly rational reponse in the end. Totally agree that blaming our own personality traits for other people’s behavior is a waste o’ time – it’s like the old jedi mind tricks!
““Girl, this guy is a phony. We don’t have time for this mess.”, farted loudly and tucked himself into my bed (which is not allowed, so I knew he was truly put out) for a three hour nap” – snorting and weeping with laughter!
It was truly hysterical!! He was just a baby then and a little ball of pudge, fur and attitude 🙂 When I got home after said ill-advised date, I tried to talk to him about his feelings (he likes to express) and he looked at me all, “Don’t think you’re going to disrupt my life with this fool. Not up in here!” I always tell my friends and family they don’t have to worry about me dating another moron, because he has sinced gained 20 lbs. and become even more opionated, so I don’t want to risk offending him and the subsequent shaming haha!
Love that dog!!!
He is the best! It’s Winston’s world, I just live in it. We could all take a page out of his book, because homeboy just has no time for bs or any sort of foolishness 🙂
p.s. I’m working from home today, so he is currently on the deck in his lounge chair. Bulldogs are very sensitive to heat, but since it’s his favorite spot, he has a special umbrella that goes over his chair and my Dad came over and made a platform for a doggie water bowl so he doesn’t have to move too far if he gets thirsty. I still front like he’s not spoiled.
Natasha, You have been gifted/blessed with a real guide in the spirit contained in that dog! He has proven his trustworthy qualities. I think that you probably requested help and it came to you in his form. Lucky lady that you take his obvious advice. Sounds like you both are in a win-win relationship together. He has your back. I’ve always trusted in the wisdom of animals.
Awwww Leisha you are so sweet! I agree 🙂
“All of us can improve ourselves – we’re works in progress but I will never, ever, suggest to anyone that they use rejection and the perceived opinions of those who are not interested/unavailable as a launchpad for changing their personality. Change your love habits, change how you feel about you.”
This resonates with me so much! One should change how you feel about you, love yourself, respect your boundaries and desires, change what YOU want to change for a better happiness of you, not for others. I can attest how much that will get better, all around. By doing just that, my NC of a mere 3 months (from a 4 years stink) has been so much easier. I can say I’m 80% free from the last EU.
Oriana,
I take your point… but! I think there are aspects of ourselves that we’d all like to change – I, for one, would love to be more ambitious, but i could procrastinate for England and win the gold! I would love to change this, but i think, if anyone is going to work on changing, it should be for themselves and not for anyone else, otherwise the change is inauthentic and unhealthy.
Everyone has bad habits, but most people are on ‘best behaviour’ when on the initial few dates. Aspects of oneself that are ‘offputting’ on dates can be changed but, again, it has to be for oneself. My bloke loves me, even though i leave things to the last minute, am not always tidy, have absolutely no sense of direction, and get very clumsy when drunk. I think that someone who will walk away and disregard all the great things about me because of my shortcomings, is not worth having.
This is just my opionion and i may have totally missed the point of your comment, but i think that, even if someone could benefit from not picking their nose/ biting their nails/ not talking too loudly/ refusing to ever pay for anything, the desire to change this aspect STILL has to come from within, and not because of someone else, or potentially ‘getting’ someone else.
Absolutely Minky – change for yourself not for someone else. I tend to also be clumsy as well as talking far too loudly and doing Michael Jackson dancing when drunk….
Natalie, I just laugh everytime you mention your Michael Jackson antics. I can just see it! Would love you to make a youtube for us!
Spot on, especially
“…..someone who isn’t interested cannot meet your needs so if you hang around them like a blue arsed fly trying to make them interested or working on that degree, you’re unavailable for an available relationship.”
Unavailable for an available relationship. Good one.
If someone wasn’t interested in you even though you were being authentic, would you make adjustments to your self to make yourself more likeable in someone else’s eyes? Then you are no longer being authentic and you will have trouble ahead, even if someone likes the unauthentic new you. On the other hand, if you are walking into situations already unauthentic, they will sniff it out eventually and you will stop seeming attractive to them, because you aren’t being real. Either way, being true to yourself is the answer. Unavailable or just not doing it for them, the end result is the same. You don’t belong together, move on. In reality, one guy might love that little mole on your chin, the next might find it hideous. Are you going to change yourself for each new guy, trying to up his level of interest. Be yourself, love yourself, someone will love you for it. I am still working on this, so I come from a place of been there, done that, and been there again and done that again (still doing it but learning). True, some things are adjustable but on a level that doesn’t compromise you or make you stop being authentic.
Outstanding comment Jennynic. I’m practically clapping my hands saying “Hercules!” You’ve come a long way!
Funny how they can pinpoint reasons and turning points of something you said or didnt say and give that as a reason to walk away after using your time and emotions. In my situation it amazed me that this man whom was married had issues with me as a single woman even taking a man’s phone call or receiving a text yet he went home to his wife every night and when that is mentioned “she doesn’t count or is a non-issue”. The reasons don’t just happen… the thing that happens is the only thing thats left… they start having to answer for their behavior from either the wife or other woman and they take the same road they have always been on – they stay married and get back in good graces with the wife and start the cycle yet again with someone that thinks they have a chance. How can one be judged according to the way they conduct themselves in an affair? Do these men think there will not be some bitterness and anger yet their actions speak even louder. It’s not what you say or do – its who they are. They use you up and go back to their comfort zone. It is unfair and unrewarding. The best thing to do is never get yourself in that situation again and realize that you do not have to live a lie. They can have every reason in the world for your relationship not to be working but ultimately they have decided that you are not worth being any more than a small portion of their life. It speaks volumes when someone walks out of your life and tells you at the same time you were so special and so important.. kind of negates that doesnt it? I personally have found comfort in these blogs of wisdom and it is comforting to know I am not alone. All I can say is I have learned my lesson and I never want to feel this way again.
Spot on Natalie. It’s a black and white situation, but it’s so much easier to see that when you’re on the outside looking in!
Half-arsed interest = I don’t love you, but I like the benefits I’m getting without having to give anything in return, so I’m going to milk this situation for all it’s worth.
Don’t fall into that trap.
I have allowed a married man to use me believing that he would fall in love with me and then want to see me and try to see me more often. I never expected him to leave his wife.This my first affair late in life and its nothing like i thought it would be. I am beginning to understand that that soft place of in my heart for him that feels so right must be discounted. its hard to believe that it is not truth because it is such a tender thing. I have wonderful sex with him about every 6=12 weeks when he can fit me between his words travels with the wife he has been cheating on for 23 years. The interim is not good He only communicates lazily internet and for sex.He had never brought me as much as a flower. How can my body response to this, i have been feeling sick lately and after an email tonight. I think I can’t go there again. So much disappointment, hurt and longing. So many mood swings and paralysis.I am not present in my life to enjoy anything. I have been working up the courage to let him go. It just robs me of any peace. i simply can not have contact with this man cause i cave in. When he is away on his trips i regain a little of my old self but then the cycle starts over again. I pray to god help me please God Help me. Hold me in your arms and fortify me.
Karen
I hesitate to speak for God but I’m quite sure this isn’t his plan for you. I could be tender and wonderful once every three months as well, it doesn’t prove anything.
karen
bite the bullet and get rid of him! You said you weren’t present in your own life waiting for this man and his thing to happen. He is just wasting your life and distracting you from what your own life is about.
I had a similar experience with an ex boyfriend who wanted to downgrade the relationship to the occasional sex session which slotted into his work and life schedule. It was a demoralisng situation, where I lost my self respect. Its taken me a long time to recover from that. Bale out NOW there is nothing at all good coming from that way and you know it!
Karen,
I can relate to being relegated to a booty call, too.
It’s bad enough that they treat us this way but, worse that we allow this treatment.
Married men are a no-win, and will only result in addition pain.
Very true Allison – it’s the allowing bit that probably stings the most.
Very true Josie and probably the hardest part of the recovery is dealing with the fact that you participated but in admitting that you made a mistake, you get to not only learn from your mistake but you know in future that the pain comes from not admitting when you’re doing something that’s not working for you.
You say you never expected him to leave his wife. What exactly do you expect of him? To be more committed to his cheating? Stop settling and expecting just a few more crumbs. That is all he has to offer and he sees that it’s been okay with you. Knock him off the pedestal. He is a man, merely a man, not special in any way. Good sex? Is it worth feeling like crap for six weeks? No. Other men know how the female body work s and won’t make you feel like sh*t. Don’t waste any more time on this cheating liar.
ever since coming to your blog i have made healthier decisions, as others posted and I came to this blog after being dissapointed numerous times. I’ve actually read your blog before but at that time I was deluding myself and using the information to “win” someone over.
being pretty stubborn, I have reached my epiphany a few months ago. It’s funny how the same articles I read a while ago resonates differently now because I choose to have a different mindset, now I have been using the insight of your posts to make sure I can control myself as well as keep my issues in check….. instead of trying to convince someone.
you are also very correct that most of the times we ourselves have to be responsible for our own actions , im glad though that I have experianced those disapointments in life and I still experiance it most of the time but I’m in a lot better place then I was a year ago!
Thank you. I have more on my mind to say, but at the moment I am just gobsmacked at how my situation fell apart, and coping with my culpability in the whole mess., yet still wondering about so many things.
So many questions that sadly, may never be answered. And so much sadness around that.
I wish I knew about this blog a year or more ago, yet, am grateful to have found it now. Thank you.
I was in a 5 month “non-relationship” with a guy and kept going back and forth with myself about why things were going so slowly and not seeming to progress, some days I decided that maybe he was not that into me and other days I decided that that’s just how he is….”especially since he is a Virgo and they’re notorious for being methodical, it was his nature to be slow” *roll eyes* .That was believable perhaps for the first 2 months or so but NOTHING significant changed. I felt like I was on a lazy river to nowhere…we were just laying around, floating along to no particular destination and everyday I became more and more frustrated and decided to hop off the ride; however, something would change my mind and I would continue lazing along the river of ambiguity (the article on the keeping the barometer at 5 and running hot and cold makes sense with that issue). He was inconsistent, some unfortunate event always befell him when we were supposed to hang out, we seemed only to hang out on his terms, when he canceled plans he never seemed to try to make it back up and I can’t believe I convinced myself to “wait and see”.
I believe that the Universe aligns and brings you the messages you need and a shift in your energy and outlook changes situations. With that said, as I questioned my involvement with him, but mostly as I began questioning things about myself, I came across this site and it opened my eyes to the reality, which is that: my track record with men is one of unavailability on their part and mine too, since I attract these scenarios. The more I read, the more my eyes have been opened to the UGLY truth, the more I became disgusted at my own behavior and appalled that I didn’t realize it to be problematic and the more I became turned off from him, as I no longer saw him as a good prospect, but an actor in an epiphany relationship that would help me to change my ways. He didn’t seem that great anymore and I became more apathetic. I began to think that as glowing as he seemed to me, it was probably a result of projection of what things could be versus the reality and I felt less excited about him and started seeing him as simply a different actor in the same tired play. I became upset at myself for repeating a cycle I wasn’t aware I was in and angry at him for fulfilling all the requirements of an unavailable man. Part of me, and I’m…
Hi MissE,
I read your comment and felt compelled to reply as your situation sounds so much like mine. And I think it’s always a small comfort to know that youa re not alone. My ‘non-relationship’ was for 5 months too (and he was also a Virgo). I attributed the slow progress to the fact that we work in the same organisation, and the factt hat he got out of a serious relationship early last year. But in all honesty, I think more than just being emotionally unavailable to me, he may not have been aware of his own emotions, and I had to deal with the ambiguity and inconsistentcies of his actions. If nothing else, it is a learning experience and I hope we come out stronger and more confident than we were before.
I need to share this with you. I softened today after speaking with my counselor who said she didn’t believe he was a bad person who meant to hurt me, that I used him as much as he used me and that I just loved him more than he loved me. With that, I felt the need to reach out to him and let him know that I wanted to say goodbye and that I loved him (by text). I half expected him not to write anything back or something short and pointed. It ended up turning into a phone call. I ended up finding out that he is with another girl who he supposedly was not looking for but met in a parking lot the day after we ended it (my friend is skeptical of the timeline). So, he’s telling me about this girl who he feels ‘magic’ with and thinks she may be the one and it’s the first time he has ever opened himself up like this (my friend thinks this is bs to in order to make me feel better and get the support he wants in our conversation). Apparently, this girl is playing pushey pully with him after three weeks of pure bliss and no sign of uncertainty. He wanted my advice . At first I fought it, then I caved and found out all the dirty details…when she pulled back he wrote her a 6 page letter professing his feelings, he couldn’t eat, couldn’t sleep, doesn’t know what to do. I feel like I sold myself out by giving him advice, drawing comparisons to our relationship, telling how much I loved him, how I was heartbroken since our ending and how sick I feel thinking about someone else getting his love, the love I never got. And maybe he felt bad but mostly, I think he just wanted me to help him figure out how to deal with her.
I used it as an opportunity to try to get all my ‘unanswered’ questions answered…like here’s my chance, he’s captive and vulnerable and so if I give him support, maybe he’ll give me some answers (same sick game as when we were together, different content, an exchange of goods and services). Basically, he told me “the thing with us is it just wasn’t quite there for me, I was hoping things would go differently but they didn’t”. He said a whack of other stuff about his being closed off before he met her (and of course that changed in a day after me EU to EA in 24 hours…he was EU to ME! My friend thinks all that other stuff he said was to make me feel better so I would stay on the phone with him and help him and it worked) all told, I found out for sure he wasn’t EU, he was EU to ME. My worst fear confirmed. It was easier to believe that maybe just maybe he was not capable. But clearly he is. What’s the lesson here, curiosity killed the cat? Trust your gut (on some level I knew he wasn’t feeling it)? That is doesn’t matter why and knowing the ‘truth’ doesn’t change anything and can actually hurt more. Man does it hurt. Ultimately, it doesn’t change what I have to do now and that is move on. The reality is even if they tell you why, it’s hard to believe them (because you think they are sparing your feelings etc.) so what’s the point in trying to figure it out/asking.
Please don’t give relationship advice to an ex you’re still in love with. That way lies bloody madness. I dont’ care if he’s the Dalai Lama, you’re gonna get hurt. And it’s not as if you can be objective. I hope that wasn’t the counsellor’s idea!
Put yourself in the girlfriend’s shoes. Would you like it if your boyfriend was on the phone for hours talking to his ex about you? It’s a giant mess that you would be better off without.
He may not be “bad” but he’s certainly no good for you.
Aaamen Grace.
“and of course that changed in a day after me EU to EA in 24 hours…he was EU to ME!”
Lisa –
I just want to say that when I read your note, I feel like I wasted my time responding to you in the last post where you asked questions and seemed to want answers.
That you can write this sentence after all the energy that many of us have put into your earlier questions is frustrating, because it suggests you haven’t read (or at least taken seriously) the responses you solicited.
Hi Magnolia, I think this situation epitomises why I try to keep comments on topic responding to the posts, adding value to the subject as opposed to it being like a forum. There’s no getting away from this being frustrating but it’s not up to you, me, or anyone else to convince Lisa of anything. I try to be very careful of heading into Florence territory because sometimes when you see a difficult situation, you want to dive in there and make it all make sense. However from experience, this isn’t as helpful as we think.
Lisa will, if she wants to, get to a point of making change when she’s ready. You can’t speed that up especially when what you’re saying quite frankly doesn’t ‘work’ for where she’s at.
Mag
In Lisa’s defence, over the period of 20+ years I saw psychiatrists and counsellors for recurrent depression and anxiety with only marginal success. It’s taken me donkey’s years to get it with the most recent counsellor so I see how Lisa can be stuck.
Lisa, what makes you think he is emotionally available with his current girlfriend? If he was, he’dbe sorting their issues out with her, not with you. You dont’ even know what a healthy relationship looks like if you think it invovles talking to your ex about it.
I feel terrible that you feel you have wasted your time. I have gotten a lot of strength and support from your words and appreciated the time and care you took greatly. I am hurting and confused trying on one hand to accept and understand what feels like an unbearable situation. I thought I was texting him for closure only to find out that he is in love with someone else and telling me in great detail how he has never felt this way before and he is offering her his ‘whole pie’. He said he thinks she is the one. He told me that he just didn’t feel that way about me so all I was left to believe is that he wasn’t available to me because he didn’t feel it not because he didn’t have the capacity. So, I feel I learned today that he was not unavailable, just disinterested (making him unavailable to me which is what I meant when I said he went from EU to EA in 24 hours). In keeping with Nat’s article, I guess what I am saying is that I found out ‘the reason’ and the outcome is still the same , he is not in my life. I am in shock and incredibly hurt…I cannot imagine that anyone else would feel differently in my situation. I am sorry if I am not getting it, I truly am. I don’t want to alienate or frustrate anyone on this site as it has been a lifeline for me. Please don’t give up on me…I am trying to make my way through and figure out in the painful two steps forward, 3 steps back, in and out of denial kind of way I guess. It’s hard to get my head around this stuff and just when I thought I was making some progress I find something out that does not change his availability to me or the outcome but does give me a reason why he didn’t commit. I think I understand what you say about me accepting less than a %100 pie (that is about me) and that you cannot be EU to one person (i.e he would have treated me better if he was EA and not interested) but I really don’t know how to reconcile that with him feeling the way he does and acting as he is around her (going out, writing letters, spending more time in one week than we did in a month etc.) so soon, maybe even before my relationship with him ended. Maybe I will need to read and keep re-reading until enough time passes and I get it and I thought I was but then a new piece of info comes to light and set me back and I forget what I already learned.
Lisa, I don’t think you need to feel terrible. You don’t have to take anyones advice. That isn’t the purpose of my site and I think that if any lesson is to be learned out of this, it serves as a reminder to everyone not to get *too* involved in other peoples stuff to the point of frustration. Like I said to you a few days ago, I’m not here to convince you and I think that it’s quite obvious that you are in a very different place to some people that comment. That’s fine (and normal) but I think some people have become confused at your agenda. I on the other hand am not confused by it and recognise that you’re one of those people that needs to run through flames, lie in the fire, dip your toe in etc. I also don’t believe you were looking for closure because a text is a pretty lazy way of going about it. You were fishing, but ‘safe’ fishing and it backfired. Why you would fish, look for validation, and then play armchair psychologist to someone who took the complete Mick is answered in the fact that you are being destructive and almost punishing yourself. Sometimes it is very comfortable being in pain – it feels like home and validates every horrible thing we think about ourselves. But it is you, not him opening yourself up to further pain. If you go to your pain source for comfort, validation etc, you will get back pain.
I want to add – no-one is giving up on you other than you. I watched as people homed in at the weekend fussing around, advising and this only happens to the level it has when on one hand someone appears to be asking for help and looking for answers, but on the other hand is tuned into another frequency. You don’t have to get anything at any speed. When you are ready to help yourself, you’ll be amazed at the difference.
Thank you Nat. You are right. Everything you said is true. I have a lot of work to do.
Lisa – just a quick point: your ex sounds like he is in the throes of early lust – driven by all the chemical stuff, and probably giddy that he’s trying a new (ostensibly more open) approach. But he’s also chasing, and being a bit weird, and over-active, and emotionally unvailable people are, quite frankly, also known for their fits and spurts, for rushing out the gate. My sincere wish is that you don’t care about this guy very soon, but since you do right now, know that life is long and hard, and relationships – even the best ones, between the most attractive, wonderful people- are hard. They’re far more than this chasing, letter-writing, approval-seeking, sick in the stomach phase. Do you not think it’s possible he is now attracted to an EUW, thereby making him very much still in the EU/emotionally-stunted bracket? In any case, what Grace and NML say is true: trying to help him is hugely self-destructive, and ultimately a thankless exercise. Turn your attention elsewhere! (You kind of have to trust that going through the healthy-hobbies-friends-therapy-Yoga-writing door is the way forward. You should only speak to exes – if ever – when you know that your intentions are not tied up with pain-alleviation or confirmation. ; ))
Elle – The interesting thing is that should she ever stop giving him the runaround and allow him to be the driver, his interest will lose its erection very fast. When unavailable people feel out of control, they equate this with desire.
This reminds me of those guys that don’t treat the woman they are dating especially well and then when she tells him to get lost, all of a sudden he’s decided he’s crazy about her. Is it just me, or does being a guy like Lisa’s or the kind I just described sound straight up exhausting?
Extremely exhausting. And confused/confusing. And, with wisdom, pathetic.
“When unavailable people feel out of control, they equate this with desire.”
Uh-oh…..
I’m so excited.
And I just can’t hide it.
I’m about to lose control and I think I like it.
New theme song for unavailables of all kinds? 😐
Lisa, not sure whether this rings true for you, but this makes me remember my first counselling session a few months ago. I had a habit of self-injury (not too severe, but nevertheless bad), and at the end of the session, my therapist told me: “Please promise me one thing. Don’t hurt yourself anymore during the next week. You don’t deserve to be hurt.”
My initial reaction was: “I’m not sure whether I trust her. I’m not sure whether her approach to therapy is what I expected.. So why should I promise anything to her?”
But then I had the following thought: “Why does it matter? Promising not to harm myself can’t harm, right? So why don’t I give it a try?” And yes, I’ve stuck to my promise ever since, and slowly, I’m starting to feel really different about myself. I hope I will never relapse.
I think that’s what this is all about. We don’t make choices “to please anyone”, or to make anyone “win”, or to “prove anyone wrong”. We make those choices for ourselves. If we decide to ditch unhealthy relationship habits, this is just another choice to stop harming ourselves.
Lisa, I want to second what Elle said about turning your attention elsewhere – as someone who failed to do this, let me tell you it’s something I wish wholeheartedly that I’d done a long time ago. If I’d done that, I would have moved on instead of staying invested for five years in someone that couldn’t give a toss about me. Now, I find myself at almost five months NC and I STILL have trouble letting go of how angry I am – this, obviously, is not good! If I’d said to myself years ago, “Natasha, this man is a moron and not worth bothering about.”, I wouldn’t be in this situation and it’s one that I’d hate to see anyone else end up in. Elle is right, focus on what makes you happy, not miserable (aka this jackass). That’s what I’m doing now and it’s starting to help. For me, whenever I start to feel anger creeping in, I think something like, “What are you going to do? Let it go. I’m excited to go out with my girlfriends tonight, so I’d better focus on that.” I would also say, whatever you do, delete his number! I don’t bother contacting my loser, but occasionally he’ll try to get in contact with me to whine about his life and how nothing that happened is his fault, because no one on this earth suffers more than him. Even just getting these texts and promptly deleting them without responding upset me to the point where I just blocked his number. If he’s making you this miserable…cut. him. off. What I’m trying to say is, learn from my mistakes! *Hugs*
Hi Lisa (and all),
Lisa, when I read your post I took it as an “argument” that you still believed that someone could be EU only to you, and were trying to show us. I wasn’t sure what the most “Florence” response was – to respond again as Nat and the others have, patiently restating what they see happening, or to say that it feels like you don’t really want to hear certain things because you have your unshakable take on the situation you describe.
I’m happy to have this conversation in the context of the group because I struggle with the line between continuing to help or put energy in where it seems it isn’t wanted/needed (as a Florence) and simply continuing to have a conversation without being invested in getting the response I expect.
I WAS confused at your agenda, and am grateful for Nat’s take that you might need to “run through flames, lie in the fire, dip your toe in etc.” Nat’s right: you don’t have to take anyone’s advice, mine included.
In any case, this guy’s behaviour does still scream unavailable. He met someone three weeks ago and thinks it’s ok to tell you she’s “the one” and consult you? He is inconsiderate of your feelings, overly quick to judge the quality of whatever he has with this new woman, and taking details of a relationship to his very recent ex – all behaviour that is not good. Please don’t expose yourself to any more of his willingness to use up your feelings for him.
I’m sorry for showing impatience and overinvestment, Lisa.
Thank you Magnolia. I do learn the hard way and have a pattern of being very stubborn about my fears/beliefs so I understand that it could feel very frustrating to try and help me. Equally frustrating to try and help myself because I am so resistant.
Lisa, please remember darl EU attracts EU xx
Lisa, what Elle says below about your ex sums up my thoughts as I read your original post. By available we mean ‘is in touch with feelings of self and others and accordingly acts with integrity’ NOT ‘feels the way that suits us’. He is chasing an unavailable woman and still won’t hesitate to hurt you again because he still can’t see the consequences of his words and actions: he still can’t empathize enough to see it’s like rubbing salt into your wounds to swoon that the new woman is ‘the One’. That is an astounding lack of awareness and consideration. The fricking definition of emotional availability. I know that from a distance in time you’ll come to see how frankly delusional your last interaction was, with drama/pain and unmet expectations being mistaken for love by you both.
Know that you are already a generous person before thinking so, and definitely without going out there to prove it. You will forgive him, you will even forgive the REAL him after you’ve let go of your illusions. Yes it’s possible to forgive someone who is incapable of empathy and care — and when you’ve done that you’ll know it’s true forgiveness because you will want to keep it to yourself. In the meantime simply forgive yourself for falling for the tricks your ego plays on you. God knows we are all vulnerable to ours!!
Thank you cavewoman, brilliant. That conversation was insanity, absolute insanity. I really want to feel like I dodged a bullet but the rejection and deception that I feel (he met her the day after we broke up, REALLY? It means every reason he ever gave me for why certain things weren’t happening were not true (can’t see me often because of work just to name one) were all lies. He sees her 4-5 x a week. It was because he didn’t want to see me. It is hard not to feel stupid and rejected and I rewarded his lies, disinterest and insensitivity with support and absolution. I really need to work on my boundaries and impulse control.
Lisa,
You say he thinks she is the one. He says she is blowing hot and cold after only 3 weeks. What kind of available man would go for a woman like this?
Not quite a quick a point as yours, ICDB. This is my point!
And also what kind of redeemed, awesome guy would even think of asking an ex for this sort of advice when she’s expressing that it is causing pain and it’s how she felt? It’s selfish to the point of satire.
Good question. A desperate self-centred man who was trained by me that I offer unconditional support. The cruelty is in the collateral damage that results from his selfishness. Ugh, boundaries, boundaries, boundaries.
Elle,
I like your post, and I think it eloquently states the point. I think we must have been typing at the same time, as your post was not yet on the site. We were both definitely thinking along the same wavelength!
Can I get a aaaaaaaa-men?! Well sad I Can Do Better. What *is* clear from that convo is that both parties think games and blowing hot and cold is normal. This man sounds like he’s dating himself. Funny how he’s in love now!
I know it’s not the point but he never blew hot with me lol. Thank you for your comments, all of you. I feel like yesterday was a bad dream. It was my worst fear confirmed and I did it to myself, again. I was doing better, I was starting to feel better (before I texted). I can’t unknow what I know now so like all of you wonderful women mentioned (and I do appreciate your candor and generosity with your experiences despite what a brick wall I can be) I have to focus on me and move on and not make the same mistake AGAIN. I can’t say it enough, you have ALL been my lifeline and it scared me to think that I frustrated you and exhausted you with my stubbornness and slow, slow, slow movement towards reality and what I need to do cause it scares the bejesus out of me.
The beauty of NC and letting go. I works. NC leads to the letting go. Sure it’s hard but it works. Lisa, let it go. Why torture yourself anymore. Let it go.
Lisa,
Correct me if I’m wrong, but your worst fear was that he actually was available, just not to you? If that is the case, then your post clearly shows that he is STILL unavailable, as proven by the next woman he chose after you. He chooses to pine after someone who is ambiguous towards him. That is actually how unavailable operates. If the woman (such as you) is more interested, he might be more reserved. But if the woman (this new gal) is flaky about the relationship, he will pursue her like crazy, because whether he knows it consciously or not, it’s safe to pursue someone you probably can’t catch.
As for him blowing hot in the beginning with HER, she may have seemed more challenging in the beginning. Even if he says everything was great at first with her, I would be willing to bet there was some kind of unavailable vibe he was picking up on that made him try harder.
I know it’s hard not to focus on the details of his behavior with her vs. you. If it helps any at all, my ex blew very hot with me in the beginning, couldn’t see me enough, call me enough, etc. Then lukewarm, then hot and cold, and now we are nothing.
The end result is the same. I know I certainly don’t feel more desirable, just because he once had the hots for me. If anything, it created more confusion, questions, etc. How could he be so into me, then act as if I don’t matter? Believe me when I say there is no more satisfaction in once having had the gourmet dinner, then being relegated to crumbs.
Either way, the feeling of rejection hurts like hell, and we have all had the tendency to go down that path of doing a relationship autopsy to try and make sense of it all. The details always differ, but I think that is why Natalie is trying to get us to focus more on the end result. Because that is really all we need to know, so that we can make better choices for ourselves.
Hi Lisa
Maybe he didn’t feel the “zsa zs zu” w/you because you were the nice, normal, stable comapnion. Eu’s & commitment phobes need the rush or else they don’t feel anything. Ditto, if someone is available and they are not, they are going to seek someone who is unavailable so that the chase can continue. I hope I didn’t make things more confusing
I wondered the same thing but he said there was no sign of it (her unavailability…it was smooth sailing for a few weeks, loads of time together, very reciprocal and then when her ex MM entered the scene and told her he will always love her she got confused (needs time alone, sort herself out etc.). He is scared to walk because of the way he feels about her and feels like there is something there, that she has deep feelings for him. I should say although, it may not make a difference, that he said it was after three weeks and the re-entry of the MM that she got confused and starting sending mixed signals but it’s been since a couple of months that they have known each other (first 3 weeks was in April). He just seems to care so deeply for her and her issues (history of depression etc.) and is so fore lorn that it confuses me. It’s like he has all this feeling and physical and emotional investment and care towards her so it tricks me into thinking he has some capacity for intimacy. Such a FAR cry from how he behaved with me.
Oh dear Lord, she is pining after her MM ?? Can there be any question she is unavailable? Lisa, they deserve one another, they sound extremelty self-absorbed, self-centered and immature.
Hey Lisa, I completely understand and feel where you are right now in your life. I have been in a very unhealthy, dysfunational and what the people around me call an emotionally abusive relationship (though I’m not sure I agree with that part) for almost 5 years. Sometimes I ask for advice or just to have someone listen, and people become frustrated with me when I do not make the amount of progress they want me to make at the time they want me to make it. Don’t feel horrible. It takes time. I’m in group counseling now, and one thing I have realized is that you won’t be able to really leave until you truly WANT to for yourself (not for him, your friends, your family) and are ready. Keep your head up.
19 Years Wiser & Lisa – Your comments and situations reminded me of something. Years ago, I was in a two year relationship – this was the guy who said one of the reasons he treated me as he did was because I was black and didn’t tell him what it would be like to be in an interracial relationship… Anyway… One year in and I finished it with him. The world and its dog were telling me this guy was asshole etc and on one level I knew it, but a couple of months after the break, I took him back. Things were very different, he couldn’t pull all of the same stuff with me, but he was still a twit. I finished it with him a year later. The first time I finished it with him, I knew I *should* but I actually did it mostly because everyone else had so much to say about him. I went back because I wasn’t fully behind my own decision. The next time I was. One friend of mine absolutely let rip about my ex and actually, she was right about him but she later apologised because while she was trying to show me what a twit he was, it ended up crossing the line. This is why I say to you that I’m not here to convince you. It doesn’t mean I don’t care but there is only so many things I or someone else can say. I can position you in the direction of the light, I can come up with umpteen explanations, but actually most of it is you.
It isn’t mine or anyone else’s job to fix you or live your life. I think it’s human to get a little frustrated – it’s like watching someone go into oncoming traffic and wanting to desperately stop them and yelling and doing Powerpoint presentations on it. You have to be in control of you and your decisions. Whether you’re happy or miserable – you’ve gotta own it. If I had the choice between what I’d choose to own, I know what I’d go for…
Nat, you are right on point! The only thing that scares me is whether I will actually get to the point of completely wanting better for myself…part of me want it, sometimes, but there’s always a part of me that’s just fine with the uncomfortable comfortable. How do you make yourself want better?
Thank you 19yearswiser, jennynic, ICanDoBetter and NML,
Yes, it’s hard to let go and like Nat said, the analysis, the going back into the fire…it’s all part of it. On some level, I probably needed to hear him say what he did, “It just wasn’t quite there for me”. Albeit 3 years too late but I knew it. Hearing it straight out of the horses mouth was different followed by a “I wasn’t looking for a relationship, it just happened” and went on to describe all the things I never got and wanted to believe he wasn’t capable of (in addition to all his excuses as to why he couldn’t give me more). He pulled off my fur coat of denial and man it’s cold out here. Thanks for understanding.
Lisa, I’ll say this: It’s been three frickin weeks. THREE WEEKS! When he’s been cosied up for a year, two or three with the same woman and has spontaneously combusted into Mr Personality and shed his assholery, then and only then is it worth this level of drama. It’s like a shit storm in a teacup. You’re a Fast Forwarder – you actually believe that this shite is real and buy into this intensity. It’s been THREE WEEKS.
Hey Nat, I respectfully disagree – it’s never worth this level of drama, especially not when godforbid in a few year’s time this poor loser ends up loving and happy?! more power to him, but you’re right let’s not get too far ahead of ourselves
😉
For the record: I know what you mean by not being 100% behind your own decision, and for me it’s like going through phases (hours, minutes) when I’m behind another agenda and it’s like my brain can’t handle both project Win at All Costs and project Cold Turkey simultaneously. It requires discipline to tune out the counterproductive thoughts. What Lisa experienced could have been me – I have moments when my fantasies run away with me… NC is what saves us all from ourselves until we know better not to momentarily give in to the imaginary stuff. It’s really hard to resist the starring role in my mental movie of clever, generous, loving, wise, forgiving, moral-upper-hand, tender, vulnerable, seductive, irresistible ME and ta-daa, next thing I know I’m flirting with breaking NC. Ugh.
I should stress Cavewoman – I’m not actually suggesting that Lisa wait this period of time to have the level of drama! I’d rather she went and got on with her life. My point is that it’s three weeks. I could just about understand if it was a year or so, but even then, I’d hope that Lisa would have got on with her own life by that point for it not to matter. It’s about proportionate response. It’s like when someone spends three years getting over a three month romance. I could understand if they’d been together for a gazillion years but something isn’t right with that maths – that is a real example btw.
Lisa – if it’s any consolation, I had your worst nightmare come true.
My EUM got me pregnant (despite precautions) on the occasion when I stuck my hand back in the fire to see if it hurt (it did). I then, being very frightened and confused and vulnerable – now that I think back – allowed him to mess me about for a further six months before it got too upsetting and I actually MOVED OUT OF TOWN and started lodging with a relative to get out of his drunken clutches.
Anyway, long story short, he finally decided to get his act together in the interests of being a good dad to our son, took up some hobbies, exercised regularly, drank less, caught up with his old friends who cared about and were good for him (all stuff I’d been telling him to do for about a year ofcourse ofcourse) and committed to spending proper and regular quality time with the baby when he was born. As a result he became much healthier emotionally and as a result (pausing only to declare undying love to me over the phone when drunk, just to make the experience pleasanter for me) met an absolute stunner and committed to her.
They seem happy. He has taken to posting songs on youtube about the sun shining through the darkness and how he’s moving on and so on. Great fun.
I’m going to put the kicker to this story on another post because I’m worried about the word count and my words of wisdom being lost in the ether. Hang fire…
The kicker is that I’m okay. I still have my moments of raging against karma (what karma?) and times when I resent the fact that he is happy as can be whilst I’m skint and lodging in the sticks with said relative and times when I just plain miss him so much that it hurts but I’m getting through it. I’m not happy – yet – but I will be.
This is effectively my worst nightmare coming true. Seriously. It has enough of the elements of rejection and loss and being-thrown-over-for-a-hotter-model and being-made-to-look-like-a-total-fool and having-to-stick-around-and-watch-someone-I-love-be-happy-with-someone-else to completely confirm every nasty thing that I’ve been believing about myself since childhood. BUT I’m still standing.
When I ask myself WHY IN HELL I’m still standing I come up with the following:
a) I made the move (physically!) and stopped the pattern. I couldn’t go NC for obvious reasons but I could – and did – put myself out of reach from the worst of his messing about. *I* did that, it was MY choice. Mememememe. Not him.
b) I don’t have a lot of time to think about it anymore – I have a baby and a full-time job. Obviously I wouldn’t recommend getting pregnant as a distraction technique, but having my mind taken off it and not being able to sit around thinking about it has been helpful.
c) I can see that didn’t Not Work Out because I wasn’t attractive enough, or interesting enough or deficient in any way. It didn’t work out because he was a mess when I met him and now he’s not. Believe me, you can really see the difference. And now that he’s ‘better’, he treats me with a lot more respect and consideration, if (sensibly) keeping me at arm’s length.
I don’t know if any of this helps, or if I’ve just prevaricated totally off-topic and confused you – sorry if so. I guess that I’m saying that, even if he has met the love of his life (and I’d bet a lot of money that he hasn’t), you’ll feel better if you stay in control – going and staying NC, keeping busy with other things and doing what YOU think is right.
You are right. It may not result in anything (his relationship). I think the drama or ‘pain’ that I am experiencing is that I didn’t get any of the affection, intensity or attention he feels for her at any point in our relationship, not even close so knowing that it was about his disinterest in me, not in a relationship has created a lot of emotional upheaval for me regardless of how their relationship turns out.
Yogurt
Your story illustrates what I bang on about occasionally. THEY ONLY CHANGE WITH A NEW PERSON. The new person isn’t better or more good looking (well, sometimes they are). What they are, crucially, is somone he/she has NOT jerked around. She doesn’t know that he’s been a user or is capable of it. If she does know, she hasn’t experienced it from him herself. In that neutral-to-positive space, he has the freedom to be better IF he wants to be (not because she has made him better). Unfortunately, if a woman DOES make a man better (like you did) he’ll take what he’s learned thanks very much into his new bright future without the bad memories.
I’ve treated some decent men badly. I regret it but would I go back to them? Hell, no. I would be too embarrassed. Ticking away in the background would be the uncomfortable knowledge that I’m a bit more powerful than them cos they liked me more than I liked them. I wouldn’t want the daily reminder of the EU person I used to be. It’s not two equals coming together.
All that said, Lisa’s ex is showing all signs of EU with his new EU girlfriend. Does that make her feel better? Not really. If they went off together to make babies a la Brangelina, would that help? Nope.Cos, Lisa, it’s not about him anymore. It’s your life now, live it without him. He is really not as important as you think he is.
I agree Grace! I think it goes the other way too. My ex-AC claimed to be a totally different person who wanted a real relationship with me (he wasn’t and he didn’t) and when I was thinking about giving it a shot, one of the things I thought was, “Is this thing irreparably f*cked? Am I going to be able to feel secure with someone that’s ditched me 800 times, broken promises, made me look like a fool and treated me like I was only good for sex?” Basically, it came down to “Is it worth trying to fix this and live with what happened before or should I just find someone new?”
Grace – oh hell yeah. And in a weird way, knowing that makes it easier… there’s no way you can build a working relationship on two year’s experience of pain. Can you imagine if we got together? I’d wake him up every morning by thumping him really hard. And I’d enjoy it.
There are other things that make it easier too. I guess that one of them is that, if I really did/do love him (which was after all my excuse for doing all manner of stupid things) then I should really be putting my money where my mouth is and feeling glad that he’s finally found some sort of peace with himself.
Also, whatever HE thinks (‘sunshine in the dark’, hmph) I’m going to take some of the credit for his happiness now, thankyouverymuch. If I hadn’t made the choices that I’d made then he wouldn’t be where he is now. It stings and all but at least I can feel smug inside.
Lisa, what I suppose I’m saying is that if he HAD gone from being a 10% pie sort of a person with you to a 100% pie sort of a person with someone else then you’d probably be able to find some positives in it, however much it may suck. As it happens, as far as I can gather he’s only offering her the same crappy piece of pie (based on ‘what I can get from this person’ and ‘how much danger am I in from actually having to have an authentic relationship? Oh, not a lot – that’s okay then’) just mashed up and served in a different way. It’s just as poisonous as the pie that he offered you and will ultimately probably make her just as ill if she chooses to eat it.
Anyway, if (as he sounds) he’s only interested in a relationshiip with someone who can’t return his feelings what would he want from someone as loyal and caring as you?
I just want you to know your page ROCKS! I’m a newbie and I came here looking for answers a little while ago. Your so right about how we internalize and over-scrutinize failed relationships. No matter how AWESOME I KNOW I am – not every guy will realize my value. And just because he might not have realized it – it doesn’t mean that I’m broken or damaged goods.
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Thanks for the great post Natalie! I especially like your point about either we’re in or out … isn’t that the truth!? Wow you caused me to realize that it’s true, it’s not about something I did or neglected to do because, I was actually willing to put effort into talking about what needed to be done to improve things between us. He wasn’t. Well, he wanted to talk to me, begged me in fact to take him back and talk to him again, but when he finally got me on the phone he had not a whole lot to say. Sounded more like he was just placating me than convincing me he would change his ways that screwed things up in the first place, and work to improve our relationship.
Then after I felt we got nowhere, he said “Well not to be rude but I’ve got to go to sleep”. Since then I’ve recently seen that he’s joined the same dating site I was on and he seems to log on every few hours … often into late at nite … to chat & email with other women. Hmmm … but when he had finally got his one chance to talk to me and convince me why I should take him back, he just could barely keep himself awake for it!
I haven’t been posting much lately because of time constraints but I am trying to read your posts and they continue to give me new insights and resolve. As with the insightful posts of the other ladies, it’s amazing how much similarities some of our feelings about these issues and the behaviors our men have treated us with!
Great post Natalie. Sad though it is I am having to walk away from someone with whom there is a definite mutual interest but because of the circumstances in which we find ourselves (we work together) it just isn’t sensible for either of our careers. We are simply not available to each other, not because of anything wrong with either of us, but the unavailability is still more real than our ‘potential relationship’. Unavailability is unavailability.
I agree with some of this post, i.e. that it doesn’t matter what the source of someone’s lukewarm or hot/cold behaviour toward you is because you should get away from them either way. However, my view on someone who works really hard to spark your interest or date you when he is actually not going to be available is that this person is unavailable and not just “not that into you.” I know it doesn’t matter, but you may as well realize that this person has issues because people who don’t have issues don’t go looking for attention from people they don’t want. And a total red flag for unavailability is him being hung up on some other girl who doesn’t want him. I think that once you start recognizing this pattern, it will be easier to move on faster from these attention-seeking clowns who aren’t even good enough for themselves, let alone for you.
I wrote two little things about this, here:
and here:
(I know I posted one of these links on here some time ago in response to someone else but they are exactly on the topic of this post.)
I spent the day with a friend yesterday, and she was discussing a “sorta” relationship she was having with a guy but just decided he was too wishy washey about it so she gave it the thumbs down.. then turned to me and said “It’s as easy as this.. you’re either in or you’re out…” Hmm.. as stated here also…. This friend of mine has a zero bs tolerance and I on the other hand, am guilty of tipping the bs scales.
I have complicated this drama non-existent relationship so much looking for the slightest crumb that signifies a pie to come when I know I need to get tough with myself and realize aint no pie comin…ever.
I went no contact and after a month, stupidly responded to . “Susie, are you out there? Just so you know you know you’re not the only one in pain here.” I could kick my own arse for meeting him..In fact, I wish I had a third leg so I could kick it before it left the door to go meet him. What he meant to say was, “Susie are you still pining for me? Because I haven’t noticed you gnawing at my ankles for at least 24 hours now and my ego is extremely curious as to why I have lost points in my own awesomeness.”
Today I was emailed a statement saying go away, and I am no longer the girl he loved and it’s scary that I have become such a shell of my former self and he needs someone way stronger than me.. So, This drove me straight to this website with raging insanity and I am just as red as the tomato at the top of this post.
I feel like I want the karma to come around and have a serious go with him, but I know this is out of my control.. and I’m mostly mad at myself for letting him prance into my life and walk all over me again. Yeah he used me, yeah he did..and yeah I let him.. The difference is.. I didn’t think I was using him.. I was hoping an unavailable assclown had time to change and accept that he’d made a horrific mistake..
The only thing that is keeping me sane, is a) coming to this site and b) knowing that I need to stop communicating and stay away.
He might think that’s temporary and that I will cave again and momentarily that’s frustrating.. but ultimately I have to make this about me.. I have to get in charge and regardless of what this guy is thinking or doing, I must convince myself that the first step, stopping contact is taking back control.. This is so hard.. I feel so addicted to the littlest bit of…
Jaysus Gingerbell, this guy is a grade A, send in the cavalry, assclown. It’s like he gets some enjoyment out of being an asshole. Don’t even try to rationalise his actions – you’re not an assclown so you don’t think like him. A guy like him doesn’t see what he’s doing as a mistake – it’s like an every day activity for him. Steer well clear, never give him an opportunity to reject you ever again and start asking yourself why you need *this* man’s love. He’s not the definition of you or love for that matter.
Hi Gingerbell,
You are the second person here, I think, in the past few weeks to have someone tell them that they are no longer “the strong woman they once were” and to try to make them feel bad on that count. Something about the way you told your story made this little tactic jump out at me. I never really saw what an easy, unimaginative dig that is. And how it shows that they actually know they are assholes.
I’ve turned myself into a pretzel trying to “be strong”: ie. not let someone’s insults bother me, but these guys get us where it hurts because they know darn well if we were a smidge stronger we’d have propelled their arses well out of earshot, so there would be no insults to steel ourselves against.
It’s like saying, “You must not be strong because you’re still here talking to me.” If there was a playbook for these guys, this one would be a classic manoeuvre.
“He needs someone way stronger?” Bullshit and he knows it. You’ve shown yourself to be stronger than he’s comfortable with. He’s lashing out.
The last thing my (incredibly emotionally abusive) mother ever said to me on the phone was : “You would be such a coward if you hang up on me now”. I replied “I don’t give a damn” (for the first time of my life), hung up on her and never talked to her ever since. That was four years ago. I’m still struggling with the fallout of my traumatic childhood, but I know one thing for sure: That was the least cowardly thing I have ever done in my life.
Magnolia is right. The tactic of telling you to be “strong” (and therefore put up with more abuse) is one of the worst ever invented. Flush!
This ties in very well with the post about convincing, as well as the tipping point. There is NO amount of detective work that one can do to figure out why another isn’t interested. Why even bother anyway? It’s a waste of time & energy that could be used to improve oneself, and besides….. unless you work in law enforcement for a living, you don’t even get PAID to do detective work on an asshat! 😐
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: no matter what my self-esteem is, no matter what the situation is, no matter what past mistakes I’ve made….. the 1 mistake I never made/make is this – I am NOT (nor have I ever been) in the business of convincing someone to stay around, nor will I waste precious time doing detective work on an asshat. I’m not gonna make depression even worse by wondering what I did wrong to be rejected when, in fact, the other person is the asshat. I refuse. And even if he’s NOT a jerk-asshat, the fact that he isn’t interested is enough for me. I don’t do pathetic. 😐
As usual, another good one. Off to read the comments…..
You know that Jennifer Hudson song You’re Gonna Love Me, Spinster? That’s exactly what it’s like when you refuse to go no matter how unavailable or disinterested. I couldn’t do the chasing someone that wasn’t interested because it was like heaping more pain on more pain. It still hurt me, but probably not as much as it would have if I’d stuck to them like glue. I hear you!
That’s actually why I’m not too fond of that song. Desperation, pathetic, convincing….. No. 😐
Nat
I like what you said about your four-year-old getting it. I had a convo with one of my nieces when she was six or seven. She was complaining about two of her “friends” who always do what they want, never what she wants, start playing with her, then ignore her. I said “they aren’t your friends. they’re your frenemies. ” We had a good laugh about it.
No-one on this earth would I have turned round to her and said “What can you do to make them treat you better? Why not stick around and do what they want until they become proper friends?” But that’s exactly what WE do.
If a six year old can understand what a frenemy is, then we should be able to grasp when we’re not in a mutually fulfilling relationship and ESPECIALLY when we’re being outright mistreated.
To quote “Sex & the City”, what about the za za zu? What elevates a nice man that you enjoy being with, to a man you gotta have? This is a great blog, and I must say, it’s made me re-think how I date. I’m taking great pains to ensure that ass clowns and emotionally unavailables don’t even make it through the vetting process. But I’m missing the za za zu. I’m not finding that any of these men who we would consider stable, datable men, can make my heart skip a beat. which makes me wonder: does part of the za za zu come from these guys being distant/a little dangerous/naughty/etc, ergo more exciting? Dating can be so fucked up…lol
Hi Christine. It’s probably best you find out what that za za zu is. Writing off prospects on something indefinable that my be rooted in a habit of unavailable men isn’t a wise move. For a lot of people, za za zu is what they call excitement and flutters which can actually be the fear and anxiety from ambiguity and drama.
Hi Christine,
I have been pondering the same thing! Give me a few months, now I am equipped to make better judgements and I hope to find an answer to that one. I do know though, reflecting on the last 7 or so years, the few men that fancied me that I rejected are now married, settled and very honorable fun and mature men. Gee let those two get away, wonder why? Something to do with the fact that they were available and the settling down type and I would through in the ‘boring’ basket. Meanwhile I was chasing za za zu from intriguing, flighty and mysterious men or investing all my energy to something totally unattainable. Funny… and I wonder why I feel like cupid, with all my friends, past flatmates, colleagues getting married around me while I am standing still. Still I agree there HAS to be the za za zu, why settle? Some do I guess but I also take faith in the fact that I have beautiful friends that have found perfect match/ life partners with the za za zu for them.
You can’t have security and excitement. This was said to me by one of the prettiest girls at university. She’d broken up with her “exciting” boyfriend the year before and had started seeing someone new and more stable. At the time, I thought it was a cop out but now I know better.
Wondering whether someone will call is not as exciting as knowing that he will call. Wondering if he will spend Christmas with you is a rollercoaster compared to going to Sainsbury’s with them to buy the turkey. It feels like a real treat when the MM turns up unexpectedly. The unknown is exciting.
Security isn’t boring. You can love someone, know they’ll come home every night and still get a little kick from seeing them come through the door.
This is probably one of your best comments yet Grace and you have many that have elicited a guffaw from me.
If you want to be excited all the time, you’ve got to take the flipside that comes with someone that is exciting 24/7.
To be exciting is to cause strong feelings of enthusiasm and eagerness – maybe it’s about time we start asking ourselves what makes us enthusiastic and eager because I know that for me, it used to be being pissed around by Mr Unavailables *snigger*.
I think I shall have to write about this.
I get exactly what you guys are saying. I can only tell you what i’ve experienced in my healthy relationship, which is: previously the ‘za za zu’ came from chasing unavialable men, who allowed me, through ‘getting’ them, to prove to my low self-esteem self, that i could attain the unattainable, occupy a bad boy for a time so that he didn’t look at anyone else. That sent my heart (and ego) racing! It was intoxicating. That kind of thing, however, only lasts until the guy starts showing his true colours and then i ended up confirming every doubt i had about myself and being frustrated to the point of madness!
What i have found in my current, healthy relationship, is that there is still za za zu, but it’s a grower, rather than an immediate thunderclap. The boyfriend is a great guy, consistent, respectful, always does what he says he will, leaves me in no doubt about how he feels, so at first this didn’t cater to any of my self-worth-affirming habits. It all seemed very peaceful and safe at first. I have found that the flutters, heart racing etc is all definitely there now, but for different reasons. I am excited when i know we’re going to meet, or when we’re out in a group and he stares at me, or when we’re mucking about and laughing ’til we cry. It takes time though. The za za zu comes from the intimacy of knowing someone and REALLY being with them, rather than your own fantasy of what could be, based on a massive show they put on to hook you in. It is far more worthwhile, i can tell you that. Have patience with the ‘nice’ guys and give it more time. They don’t blow superhot, they don’t future fake, they take it slow and act with integrity, you don’t get swept off your feet – that’s why it may seem that there’s no ‘chemistry’, but there will be, if he’s the right guy. This is just my experience, but i hope it helps! 🙂
Again totally agree with you Minky and I think that we have to make up our mind about what we’re looking for. I don’t want sparks in a relationship without intimacy, consistency, commitment, progression and balance. Yes there may be excitement in it but for what? I’m now emotionally *available* – I want a relationship with true intimacy, not a hot cold tap of dipping your toe in the water intimacy. I’ve had a lot of ‘excitement’. A lot. Most of it was flutters, drama, fear, attached to unhealthy situations. Almost 5.5 years on, the boyf still sets off a broad beam smile in me. We banter, we bicker about who is more likely to wake up Nia with our loud voices, we laugh like drains and still fancy each other like mad, even though I’ve had two c-sections and have tummy that is looking a little like Hooch from that Tom Hanks film (I’m conquering it with exercise at last), he’s lost a little hair on top and forgets to get rid of toe nail clippings and is a know-it all. I’ve never once felt any of the old feelings from my past life and I’m thankful for that. It’s true that the relationship grows and as I have a whole relationship resume littered with Men I Felt Instant Za Za Zu With, I’m glad that I fancied the boyf but it wasn’t in the same way as previous.
I think I am suffering from “what if he is giving her everything he never gave to me” and it will he may continue to syndrome. I already know that she is getting a lot that I didn’t but is it possible that if someone is interested, they are more consistent and predictable? He was predictably unpredictable with me because he wasn’t that into it but now that he wants to be with someone he describes enjoying regular visits and the simple things (like playing catch) and reciprocity (calling equal amounts) and no drama (before she got confused). I told him the only reason that there was drama in our relationship was because I felt insecure (with good reason) and took exception to his not living up to his promises. She had no reason to feel insecure because he is there showing affection and attention consistently. It’s like he’s a different person. So as long as he wants to be there and it could be a long time who knows, will my ‘exciting’ guy be her consistent partner?
Funny how many valuable lessons I’m drawing from this, even if I’ve put myself on a dating hiatus for at least 6 months or longer (until I’ve hopefully sorted my worst childhood problems out).
However, I’m starting to realise that my employer has been treating me badly for several years. Whenever I got angry or frustrated, I told myself: “This is a great company, and I’m a very good employee and the perfect match for them. Some day, they will realise this. Until then, I have to put up with all those put-downs, long hours, mediocre salary and even outright sabotage. Leaving would be a mistake, because I would never be able to find another employer like this.”
I guess this sounds awfully similiar to all the common excuses for staying involved with ACs…
Been with this employer for almost six years. Now it seems as if I have to repeat “They’re just not that special” to myself over and over again, because this idea is completely new to me…
EllyB: IMO and experience you are more likely to take crap in relationships when you are experiencing it at work. It seems that when such a big part of your life is taken up by crap just to pay the bills then it coming into your life otherwise seems “normal” and absolutely HORRID. On a positive note, my ex-employer lost his position because many of us approached the board and complained and now he gets to experience the same. Whoo Hoo! Things do have a way of coming around…
Leisha: Nice to hear the outcome might be like this (and I know such examples to), but I guess in my case it’s hopeless. My company is privately held, and the problem (IMHO) sits right on top, and it (he) has been there for decades. The rest of the company structure is accordingly, with the managers below him being either his “golden children” or his “scapegoat”.
I used to be one of the “golden child’s” favorites. Now I’m reporting to the scapegoat…and being scapegoated. I also realise that I’ve always felt somewhat scared and inadequate at this company, even while they treated me like the new young “rising star”.
Almost all my colleagues seem to feel inadequate, too. It has become so much “normal” for us that nobody seems to realise it anymore.
I always wondered why so many talented colleagues have left to pursue careers elswhere. I told myself this was only about money. I was probably very wrong.
It’s very insidious how it happens. The male I spoke of was the head for a decade and I didn’t realise I had the board as an option…nothing about it in the manuals (imagine that)…same scenario: golden until not golden and then treated “less than”. I ended up involved with his ouster by a co-worker who came to me upon also being fired with bs reasons and she let me know that I had been let go for similar reasons (I’d thought that but wasn’t “sure”) and once she brought certain things to the attention of the board (her specialty covers knowledge of such things) along with clients and present and past employees , the board (which is the ex-head’s real “boss”) decided to replace him. To cover it all they just declared they wished the agency to move in a different direction. Now, I had benefits that I didn’t want to lose, I’d seen my place change, I’d felt the ass was trying to make me quit, I was planning to go but had to save for it…at any rate things happen…due to experience I would say once you think the environment is unhealthy for you, LOOK and HUNT for something else. Your mind is telling you and giving you a big heads up even though the place of comfortable/discomfort provides a certain amount of security. I equate this with relationships as well. Where you spend a majority of your time, emotions, etc is where you are also very vulnerable. Please try and find another place for yourself while continuing to be where you are and then MOVE OUT when the opportunity presents itself. Life has a way of making us do so if we don’t take the hint…
Well spotted EllyB. I stuck it out with jobs like I did relationships. You have to evaluate whether what you think this job is and can do for you is realistic.
Hi everyone. First post, but it won’t be my last. I’ve recently come across this blog and read Mr U and FB Girl……..to say it was a lightbulb moment is an understatement. Natalie, what can I say? you are a freaking genius and I just want to say thank you. Like many before, this is a great post. I am not ashamed to say I have had a string (albeit a handful, the strike rate 100%) of text book cases. I am self diagnosed as text book Yo Yo and even strayed into OW and back again, well until now. Since ‘the book’ I have been likened to a ‘Seventh day Aventist” ….”oh man it’s in the book, you have to read the book”, the book backs up that theory” to all my friends lol. Pity I didn’t have the book five years ago! The main EUM in my life is a doozy (4 + years of ambiguity – dating, then casual, friendship, then OW, now casual again and me thinking I was effing in love with this ‘boy’, crickey) and no amount of wine, workshopping and detective work will ever shed as much light as your e-book Nat, or perhaps it’s just 395 pages of getting it to sink in (coincidently he just left my apartment having an asthma attack…..for the first time, whether or not he finds his puffer is not my concern, he has stole enough of my oxygen!) It’s a bitter pill to swallow, the reality of what we put ourselves through and why. Especially for a 32 year old, independent straightshooter with everything going for her… ticks all the boxes so to speak, I can defintely catch them, just the wrong ones. I would tear myself up as to why EUM was with his GF and not me even though we were in contact everyday and had so much ‘in common’, at the end of the day I think we are emotional clones of each other (get too close, pull away, both would blow hot and cold etc) and I know it’s these bad relationship habits and the no boundary thing more so than the actual “he’s not into you’ argument. There is a reason why my EUM is now alone (trying to find his puffer) Anyhoo I could write for hours and drop some luggage off. I am waivering on the NC rule but but I will leave with my current motto to stand by “accept bullsh!t, recieve bullsh!t”. xox
“accept bullsh!t, recieve bullsh!t” – love it! I think that freedom and eventually inner peace and a new, healthier relationship comes when we don’t continue holding onto the idea that you and/or he are the exception to the rule. We’ve got better things to do with our lives!
Spot on! I have finally come to this realisation that we are not the exception to the rule and never could be. What was I thinking??! This was a major breakthrough for me… Bloody charming, good looking, sweet and funny, unavailable men and God damn chemistry and those ‘signs’. Time to keep an eye out for the right signs from now on 🙂
Hi Crystalclear,
I had the same reaction when I read Mr. U and FB Girl. Natalie has so accurately captured these dysfunctional dynamics, it is stunning. I loved the book. It and this blog have changed my life . I’m a highlighter and I re-read my highlights regularly. As I go along on this path, I find new meaning in the stuff I highlighted. And as I get further along with NC, after sucking it and seeing a few times, the advice is becoming easier to implement. I, too, tore myself up over why her and not me. I think I’m finally getting to the point where I’m grateful it’s her and not me (as long as she is choosing to tolerate his bs. My exMM is now alone trying to find his “puffer” too. That conjured up a funny metaphorical image as mine doesn’t have asthma; I WAS his “puffer”.
Also loved “accept bullsh!t, recieve bullsh!t”. Nicely stated.
Runnergirl, too funny. I too had the highlighter running hot and I was flabagasted as to where all these lonely ego centric EUM’s learnt this stuff and how a smart girl like me could miss all the warning signals. Then silly old me thought him dumping his de-facto girlfriend was the ticket and road to a happy ending (this was shortly after I boldly moved on and was dating someone else)…sure enough he worked his way back. My epiphany also came when I figured out he wasn’t prepared to change or progress and mature realtionship -wise. Hell he couldn’t even comitt to buying this fancy car without a thousand reassurances and nudging – preferring to lease a car at a ridiculous price. I found this very interesting and while he fretted about committing to his dream car even though he could afford it, I couldn’thelp thinking I was like the trusty leased Subaru! Anyway maybe the too much highlighting. I am with you on the OW, I was at times and now even more so content that ” he wasn;t so special’ and she can have the crumbs, I’ll have the cake one day and so will you 🙂
On the puffer – ironic wasn’t it? I actually was a smidgen away from dialing OOO and would of loved to put the call in ““ Um, can you send some paramedics, this prick has been stealing my oxygen and now there is none left to give it seems it’s a life threatening situation”. But then my best friend asked why I just didn’t offer him a puff of my new perfume. i replied, now that would of beed justa good waste of Gucci perfume! Ahhh least we have our sense of humor.
In NZ (am in Aus now) we say Kia Kaha (stay strong)
I love this post, i just read it today after making the conscious decision to stop chasing a guy i had longed for. You’re right. it’s not worth it, it never was. Men who are 10/20/50/75% interested are not prepared to offer you a fulfilling and committed relationship. This is clearly the case with the guy i was chasing. I had a gut feeling that he felt the same way about me too since we flirt a lot and spent some pretty intimate moments together. He never spoke of his significant other, as if she didn’t exist. I attributed this to the fact that he was a very private person however i realised i was probably making excuses for him.We saw each other everyday so i was convinced he would have felt an inkling of attraction. The problem was i was hung up on this idea of him being the perfect partner, boyfriend, husband etc because we’re such great friends. I was convinced that eventually we would be together. I thought i could impose the chemistry we had and ultimately he would choose me. More than 6 months down the track, he still hadn’t broken it off with his girlfriend and i became more and more emotionally unstable, impatient and desperate for closure. I realised from reading subsequent number of posts that i was setting myself up for disappointment. If a man truly loves you, he would make it happen. I realised the guy i loved was very wishy washy and aloof on just about everything. He didn’t want to ‘rock the boat’ and he sure wanted his cake and to eat it too. The best of both worlds. Eventually it was tiring me out and my close friends not to mention. They were constantly sick of me droning on about the same issue and to be honest, im glad i made the conscious decision to just give up, i think after so long, you start losing energy and commitment towards the charade.
Hi Penny. You shouldn’t have to impose anything on anyone including chemistry and him carrying on like his significant other didn’t exist only compounds just how shady he is. That said – she did exist so this ship was never going to sail. Many cheaters compartmentalise their involvements – he may not see what he’s doing as cheating. This doesn’t matter though as he was completely unavailable and you shouldn’t have to force someone out of another relationship to be with you. There are better ways to feel worthwhile.
Best. Post. Ever. I see way too much of myself in this one.
I had been lucky in the past, never had a relationship with a EUW until this last one. She did a number on me. Fortunately it was not as long as some of the other commenters, and when she knocked to see if the door was still open, it wasn’t. Now I look back on the things she said, the things she did, and wonder why I didn’t see them for what they were: huge red flags! I was so invested in someone who had no investment in me, who told me there was a laundry list of things that she didn’t like about me but ‘the sex is amazing’.
Ending it and breaking contact was one of the hardest things I ever did. I tortured myself about whether it was the right decision. It totally was. I should have done it long before! She has a habit of ‘keeping in touch’ with exes. That means she keeps the door open, just in case she changes her mind. She even talks with her exes about the guy she is seeing, if you can believe that. I found out about that after the fact and wasn’t at all interested in hearing about the next guy she turns inside out.
Some people are an emotional whirlpool; if you don’t cut loose you are going down.
Jaysus J D, she sounds like a real catch. A “laundry list” and then reducing you to a great lay? That’s so fricking cheeky! Same goes for the chatting amongst the exes. She’s Miss Unavailable to tee keeping you all in her back pocket for a rainy day. Don’t be an option. You don’t need that kind of ‘friend’.
I loved “Some people are an emotional whirlpool; if you don’t cut loose you are going down.” Brilliant!
J d, here is how I suggest you deal with her:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAqxWa9Rbe0
As someone who used to believe that men don’t have feelings, I find it very interesting that she reduced you to a great lay. While I know NOW that men have feelings and I’ve gotten better about acknowledging this, sometimes I struggle with believing it and, therefore, I’d think that all or most men would appreciate being considered a great lay. Even though what she said/did to you is grimy & shady, it’s nice to know that some men DO have feelings and DON’T just wanna be considered good for a lay. 🙂 Best wishes for the future.
I couldn’t agree with this post more. So often we think “what’s wrong with me” or “how could THAT person not want to be with ME”. While I agree with the whole I’m not everyone’s cup of tea and their not mine idea, I do believe that we should take some responsibility for which humans we focus our energy on. Sometimes I tink that I start gettting involved with Mr. Wrong because subconciously it is me with the committment issues. Being upset or mad at the Mr. Wrong you chose is sometimes just an easy way to distract yourself from looking within and agreeing to pursue what you deserve. Excellent post and excellent blog! Thank you.
Very true Sarah. Focusing on the other party when you have yourself is avoidance. How available you are is determined by how deep you will get into an unavailable relationship. If unavailable feels like ‘home’ or attractive, you’re definitely not available.
This morning I woke up thinking: “Were all basically made of the same genetic materials, So what in the heck makes people valuable?” A combination of things, But on a personal level it’s what they bring to you.
And simplified things this way… If they are bringing me a load of sh*t get the heck away from them FAST.
I also realized through this “Visualization” if you will – That the people that seemed to think they were so great – actually did not really felt so great otherwise they wouldn’t have “used” people in the first place, or have any need to be pointing all of my or others shortcomings to make themselves feel so high and mighty, as you know sometimes even relatives do.
Some other self help thing I got this in my email today had this headline: How to Make Him Fall for You.
Well you know what to be honest? I don’t wanna have to make anyone do anything – especially fall for me right now, Right now I don’t wanna wrack my brains out either, I need a break and really at this point just like this new technique I came up with.. First off we are made up of basically the same genetic materials, and if you aint got anything good for me that’s all you are to me, some walking flesh with a lot of empty air.
Oh man…” this isn’t the friggin Okey kokey ” …had me laughing to myself all day 🙂
And I’m no longer in out in out….and I’ve definitely stopped ” shaking it all about ‘ for the A grade assclown ….yeeha…..what a relief.
Adele and Taylor swift have obviously been down the assclown route….check out ” set fire to the rain ” Adele…and ” Dear John ” Taylor swift… classic ” I’ve stopped playing your chess game ..cos you changed the rules every day ”
Natalie …thanks for the posts they have literally changed my life..and behaviours……selfrespectville…..here I come …:)
natalie,
You hit the nail on the head with this post! I’ve been reading your site for two months and it is a much needed wake-up call for me. Here is my story. I met this guy NYE in Austin, TX. I was down there hanging with friends and seeing a band I like perform. The guy was doing security for them & that’s how we met. The day I was leaving, we exchanged numbers and I thought nothing really of it. Few days later, we were texting and calling eachother, getting to know eachother in the process.
He told me he was in the process of divorce and I kept it on a non-interest level afterwards. Well, that changed as he started to pursue me vigorously.. since I’m an insomniac & he worked nights, that was when we did the main talking. A few weeks later, a girl(she ain’t no woman) asked me of my friendship w/him. I goated her for answers & found she was messing w/him & had been since last year. We stopped talking afterwards but that didn’t last long.. we started talking again and he told me he had feelings & wanted to pursue a LDR w/me. This is when things changed.the ‘girl’ started getting psychotic on me & told me’omg FU I hope you get what you deserve’ when I went to him about her.
After that, we remained friends& again he started blowing hot.. till I was down in TX again for charity. I flew in a day early & we had plans to hang out.. morning of tells me that he was gonna see me eary bc a ‘friend’ had an issue.. I was pissed & hung out w/my friend instead. Up til that point he called 7 times but texted the majority of the time. Next day. He came by my hotel room w/his daughter and hung out w/me for 30minutes. His excuse for not calling, ‘left my phone in the car’. Thaat whole weekend, no text, but emailed me from work. Night before I left, he invited me to his job. He tried to get the goods, but failed..mommie didn’t raise a hoe. Told me he missed me & wanted to see mee again.
After TX, everything got sporatic. Claims his ex was making the divorce difficult for him& they got into a physical altercation. I asked the right questions & got met w/half answers & a blow up. Up til last Thursday, he was texting, sending pics & saying how he missed me & had feelings. Brought up issue about a commitment & he goes, I don’t know. & the distance scares me. I told him it was bs & we got into it… again. I told him that his actions weren’t consistant and that what he was showing me was lack of concern & that he didn’t doesn’t want me andd he blew up at me. Told me’Wow, you’re wrong but I’m glad I know what you think. …I guess ill be leaving you the Fuck alone.’ I was like wow… ok & told him if I’m wrong, prove it. More things were said & then I told him you won’t open up to me, won’t tell me anything(btw, he did that a lot.not opening up to me) he said he was never gonna open up to me & that I threw the distance thing in his face.
I said how & that he broke my heart. The last comment sealed it for me. He said,’break your heart? Wow, didn’t know I had it. That’s funny. My ex said the same thing as she left me w/debt & fucked up memories & took my daughter….’ then proceeds to tell me I should take a number & that he’s always told he’s the bad guy. Oh, I should mention that during the time I knew him, he rarely asked about my life, rarely called & used words to make me think he wanted to go forward. There is more but as I see, there is a max word count. Lol. I texted him Friday asking were we done & like usual, he said I don’t know. Can’t commit to being w/me & can’t commit to not being with me. Was supposed to call & didn’t so, I haven’t contacted him since I sent an email. I don’t expect him to contct me & if he does, I’m hitting the ignore button. But, I wanted to say that if it weren’t for the blog, I wouldn’t have had the courage to call him out on his behavior.. Thank you 🙂
Gallie, this is a tricky situation but really only for one reason – you recognise that this guy is all talk and not much else but instead of opting out, you’re debating it with him and even trying to negotiate him into being a better man. Your judgement of the situation is 100% correct and yet instead of running with that judgement (literally) in the opposite direction, you’re actually undermining it by telling him to prove you wrong, which is actually a very direct way of saying “Change for me”. You don’t need to call him out on his behaviour – you need to opt out. 9 out of 10 people when you tell them all about themselves, are not interested and will deny it, even if it’s true.
Hi gallie,
I think someone just breaking up with someone or going trough a divorce really has too many other things going on in their heads to even be devoted to a cat let alone another human being.
I think they “wish” they could – And so many times I have heard the lines “oh but I’m so over it blah blah” – No they are never as over it as they “wish” they were, That has been my experience anyhow.
I know it’s hard when your finally at least getting pursued and maybe their is physical chemistry too, But to me just getting divorced and all of that is equal to still being with someone else, No matter what they are “wishing” was true just becasue maybe they are attracted to you or whatever.
Were all guilty of lying to ourselves at some point – I consider anyone going through a divorce or fresh break up to be lying to themselves.
I actually saw a personal ad with a guy complaining that he had been alone for two months… after breaking off a six year relationship lol!
Yeah two months for some people is just such a loong time, Lets have INSTANT replacements and INSTANT healing.
Natalie,
I just wanted to thank you for all your wonderful posts.
As many of your readers, I came to your website looking for answers.
Somethimes, after reading every time, there was a sense of an uncomfortable truth and still I kept on thinking that everything was going to be allright.
In my ideal world, I thought that if I was a good person and expressed my true feelings, he would finally realize that I was the one for him.
Sadly, it was all in my immagination! he is still the self centered, egotistical man that he was three years ago and I have finally decided it is time to wake up and smell my reality.
I have hoped long enough, I have decided to move on, keep the good memories and let go of everything else and take this experience as a lesson.
Thank you so very much for all your words of wisdom!
Your website has been an enormous help for me… I am begining to see clearer, with less anxiety and with a more optimistic view of the future.
Thank you!
Marisa
“But then you discover that you’re not alone.Your problem isn’t so ‘unique’ and in fact, sometimes you read a comment or a blog post and wonder if they’re talking about the person you’re with.”
So true. I have to share. I woke up this morning to find a invite to be friends with a childhood sweetheart. It was a mid-20 something sweetheart but when your over fifty, I count mid-20 something as childhood. I didn’t know who it was but he used my middle name which I rarely reveal (read: a hook). Sure enough a childhood sweetheart. After a few email exchanges, I read your articles on “The Trappings of a Childhood Sweetheart”. Sure enough, all the red flags are there. In a few short emails, he got a little too nostalgic way too soon for somebody just wanting to say hello. Remembered things I didn’t, quite frankly. I did remember playing tennis on warm summer evenings and the stary nights at the beach. Brought me right back to being mid 20-something (read danger, red flag as I’m not mid 20 something and neither is he.) Has thought of me often and hears a little voice. Oh oh, it’s been 20 some years! Yup, I got a little fluttery and was flattered. We didn’t end traumatically, if I remember correctly. We went to separate colleges in different states and lost touch as snail mail and phones with spirally cords were the only means of communication back in the day. I don’t have a clue if he was EU; I probably was as I came by it naturally. The biggest red flag and violates my new boundary no 1: “Happily married with 3 kids and not a stalker. Just wanted to say hello”. Sweet lord. Am I a mm magnet? Not a stalker? He lives across the continent so it’s not like we’ve run into one another in 20-some years and we no longer have common friends. I must need new soap! Also, how do these guys know? I’m not a big conspiracy theorist but this was so totally out of the blue and followed the trappings of the childhood sweetheart stories precisely. They must have a book out there that we are not privy too. So thank you Natalie for your books and blog. I’ve been working on my past patterns and this follows as well. I’m not over the former ex and a new former ex appears that way I can avoid the pain and myself. I was also aware of the tugs of the old Miss Independent, Miss Self-Sufficient kick in. “Oh well” she immediately said,…
Opps, forgot the word limit. I told Little Miss Independent to shut up as she tried justifying further contact with yet another mm and wished the mm the best. Thank you Natalie and those of you who posted your experiences with returning childhood sweethearts. Without your insights, I may have ended up as a cyberspace OW and another motorcar pile up.
Wow, runner, what an interesting cosmic ‘test’ and way to pass it with flying colours. What is with these dudes contacting old flames to wax nostalgic about shared romantic times when they are “happily married”? I haven’t read the Old Flames post as I can’t imagine any of them ever wanting to be in touch again 🙂 But I consider myself duly warned. Thanks for telling us about it. Little things like this show how clearly you (we!) are not that woman anymore.
Runnergirl – OH MY GOD WATCHOUT – That is exactly the story of how I ended up in the trap I am with MM. Stay strong because MM pursued me for years until I finally weakened. I am staying strong but he is still being relentless and not letting me go. I tried to reason but NC may just be the only way out of this one. I think I may be a magnet too because at work last week a MM coworker sent me a text telling me how awesome I looked. He had flirted in the past but, thankfully, I am immune to each and every MM that walks the face of the earth now. I certainly will not make that mistake again.
Wow Runnergirl – this is about as textbook as it gets! Well done for dodging the bullet. I’ll be honest with you – of the many emails I’ve had, close up to the top of what causes a great deal of destruction, confusion, and hurt is the Returning Childhood ‘Sweetheart’. It is the biggest exploitation of history and they play the nostalgia card like a finely tuned guitar. The thing is that there’s nothing wrong with reaching out to old classmates etc but my old classmates, childhood friends including male ones etc don’t reach out with “Happily married with 3 kids and not a stalker. Just wanted to say hello” – that’s just not a precursor to anything with innocent, appropriate intentions.
An ex of mine got in touch on Facebook a couple of years ago. On the Friend Request, he put in possibly one of the most long winded reasons for why he was getting in touch, saying about how I know someone who knows someone that introduced us – oddly I didn’t remember this person. I thought us ‘dating’ on and off for 4 years would have been reason enough… but he knew he was being shady hence the long winded email.
Thanks ladies for your responses. I don’t want to derail the comment thread but maybe EmLaw my new Childhood Sweetheart MM is your ex MM. He’s pursuing. I woke up this morning to find a “Catching Up” email summarizing his life so I’m not sure if I passed the cosmic test and dodged the bullet. Thanks to you all, I at least see the bullet and the red flags this time and I’m not that woman. Em, a section in Natalie’s book describes how these guys do NOT let go. We have to be the one’s to leave. For me that section struck home because in wanting him to let go meant I didn’t have to do anything. Also in my situation, why would he want to let go? He’s having his cake and eating it, drinking the milk, and playing the piano. His needs were met. Why would he let go?
Thanks Natalie for confirming that the comment about being “happily married, 3 kids, and not a stalker” was not a precusor to anything innocent or appropriate. Before reading Mr. U & the FBG and your posts, I wouldn’t have picked up on it. And thanks to your description of MIMS, I watched as she kicked right back in and figured oh well, he’s across the continent, you can dip your toes in.
I think the fact that this “happily married” guy from across the continent who I haven’t spoken with in 20 years contacted me out of the blue finally made me see that I didn’t do anything to make him unavailable or contact me. The only thing I can control is how I respond to the Mr. Happily Married Unavailables. Most importantly: “You can’t ‘make’ someone be unavailable. You can enable it by participating but they come to the table unavailable, even though initially they may blow an available trumpet.”
I’m not participating.
This happened to my sister too! She was engaged to a guy in her early 20’s that claimed to be crazy about her, but basically did everything in his power to derail the relationship – it was insane. Years later, she is happily married with kids and he is also married and has children. He found her on Fbook and joked that he “wasn’t looking for an affair” and I was all, “DE-FRIEND. IMMEDIATELY.” However, she didn’t de-friend and it wasn’t long before he was calling her up saying, “I should have married you. I still love you, blah blah.” Finally, she had to block all forms of intrustion from this jerk-off. That’s too funny about the boomerang dude and his attempted friend-ing – my Mom always says that five years from now my ex-AC will still occassionally try and do the dreaded pop-up! Gross. The first time he hunted me down on there, he claimed he saw my picture on a “friend’s profile.” We had no mutual friends haha!
Thanks Natasha for your response. I am howling. The first line out of the ex MM’s mouth was “I’m not looking to have an affair”. Of course, he uttered these words AFTER a long, dreamy, to die for, most delicious kiss I ever experienced. It cannot be possible that different guys in very different parts of the world say the same damn things, can it? Good thing your sister de-friended him. I haven’t responded to the new Mr. Happily Married interested but not available childhood sweetheart.
Okay, so am I getting this straight: 1) When a guy says he is not interested in a committed relationship, it means that he is not interested in a committed relationship but it could mean he is interested in other things like getting laid, an ego stroke, and/or a shoulder to lean on? 2) When a guy says, you deserve better, it means you deserve better? 3) When I guys says he isn’t interested, he isn’t interested and don’t take it personally. 4) When a guy says I’m not interested in having an affair, it means he is interested in having an affair? 5) When a guy says I’m happily married but still makes advances and pursues another woman, it means he is a lying cheat?
I don’t even want to know what a guy means when he says I am not a stalker!
When is your next book coming out Natalie?
For serious, I think there is some sort of Universal Assclown Language! One of my personal favorites is the kind Natalie calls Those Who Doth Protest Too Much, i.e. “I am a really nice guy.” (said 45 times in a 10 minute conversation) = “I am the biggest user on Earth. No, really. I am.” or “I am really loyal.” (see above) = “I will spend the bulk of our relationship either with my pants down around my ankles (your ankles won’t be involved in these instances, but your second cousin’s might be) or talking smack about you to my friends.”
runner, natasha
here’s another one: returning (married) ex emailed me suggesting we meet up. He closed with “I promise not to seduce you”. Cue several months of sex-texts, porn picture messaging and general assclownery.
But thanks to BR I did dodge having an affair with him.
Oy vey, these guys are unreal. My one married man run-in is one for the ages. A man that worked for a company that ran the building that I was working in asked me on a date. So, he proceeds to show up to the restaurant intoxicated (cute, right?!). I have no idea WHAT prompted me to ask him (there was no ring), but I looked at him and said, “Are you married?” As it turned out, he was “separated” and had two children under the age of six and proceeded to go on a rant about how he and his wife never should have gotten married. I did the only rational thing, i.e. I excused myself and left the restaurant! Three years later (yes, you read that right), I still get texts from him once a year or so asking why I ditched him. I kid you not. Fortunately, I’ve been spared any porn pictures haha!
I did it, I passed the cosmic test, dodged the returning mm bullet, and enforced new boundry no. 1! I responded to the mm and talked about how much fun he and his wife are going to have raising three teens. Using a hint I picked up in Natalie’s book, I used his wife’s name several times and made her into a real person. I was careful not to ask any questions that would ilicit a response. Woke up this morning to a nice short email from him saying it was nice to catch up and “take care”. MIMS felt a little tinge because he WAS so cute but IS MARRIED with 3 young children. Thanks to BR, I’m not interested. I avoided having a cyberspace affair and I’m so happy! Boundaries really do work and I’m glad I wrote them down so there is no wiggle room.
Thanks Natasha and Grace for the additional Universal AC Language & Doth Protest Too Much sayings. I’ll add them to my list. I’m not going to seduce you and I’m really loyal made me LOL. They can certainly make you think you’re going crazy!
I’m cracking up laughing Runnergirl! *high fives all round* That must have been a serious jolt back to reality. The cheeky beggar has basically written back to you and said
“Dear Runnergirl, I was very disheartened to read your email. I know I said I’m a married man with three kids that’s not a stalker, but I *am* a married man with three kids that’s not a stalker but that wants to get an ego stroke, take a trip down memory lane, maybe slip in a bit of virtual sex and inappropriate chit chat and basically avoid real life and create a fantasy bubble with you. When I flicked through my mental Roladex of women from way back when who might be flattered to hear from me, I thought of you. However you peed on my parade by mentioning my wife’s name and the kids, killing the fantasy and my erection. It was nice to catch up, but now I’m gonna have to say buh-bye and look up option 2. Take care you fantasy spoiler, mwah mwah Mr Married Man With Three Kids That’s Not a Stalker But Is a Twat”
nat
flippin hilarious!
Apparently talking about a mm’s wife by name and his kids is a real buzz kill. Thanks for that little tip. Yup, that’s precisely what he said. It was dripping with disappointment. I love the vision of peeing on the cheeky beggar’s parade, bursting his little fantasy bubble, and his little erection. I think my new way to deal with guys is to ask if they are married and if they respond affirmatively, ask what her name is and then use it frequently. The wife may be mm repellent for those of us who seem to be mm magnets. Thanks so much.
Also, even though we would THINK people would tell us they are involved from the get go it frequently isn’t so…each time you MUST ask! Truly…things can change very fast and if you don’t ask you may find out the hard way to your detriment…so ASK and respond appropriately…forget those transitionals ladies (and gents) much less those married unfaithful ones! It is so easy to not ask questions and to get into fantacies…ask the questions that will give you the information that you need to determine your path; you alone can take care of those needs for yourself since there are so many out there playing stupid games and very willing to use you if you let them…
Reading this post yet again described my thought process to a t, you may as well be reading my mind Natalie. Its absolute insanity. I had been seeing my Mr Unavailable for the past year and a half and the only thing that has ended it for good, was when I told him I’m pregnant a month ago and apart from him hurling abuse at me, telling me to move house and to have an abortion I havent seen him for dust. He’s really shown his true colours now and I’m devastated but I see what an assclown I’ve been betting on potential and thinking I know best and this is the last in a long line of Mr Unavailables. I think my fallback girl reign has finally come to an end… R.I.P Fallback girl
Perfect! So true! Keep shootin’ em down girlfriends! Maybe they’ll learn…
Ohmygosh…..I literally GUFFAWED!
Good for you girl!!! It really is funny how once you figure out what these guys are all about, any interest you had in them just turns to “EW.” My ex-AC wasn’t married, but he was very handsome, charming and, when he felt like, it acted “loving” *snicker*. It took me foreeeeeeever (and by forever, I mean five years of him turning up, disrupting my life and rejecting me AGAIN) to see what he was really all about and, with the help of BR, I know for sure I’d never go there again or end up in another piss poor situation with an assclown. I am so proud of you! Doesn’t better choices feel good?! 🙂
I have to laugh. When my married assclown told me” I can’t do this anymore” because he “just had too much going on now,” I responded with care and concern. What I didn’t know at the time was he was back on a website for attached men prowling for my replacement (OK, I snooped, I know…) At least I FINALLY now see him for the coward, liar and user that he was/is! I’m in the process of healing but my point here is my epiphany moment was long-a-comin…To those heart-broken women whose posts I read here: take heart! If he’s an assclown that means you no good, the truth will rear its’ ugly head eventually. I only hope sooner than later for your sake.
Thanks, Nat, for all that you do. I found your website when I was recently involved with an EU man, a former friend. I had such a hard time figuring out what was going on with him, blowing hot and cold, acting distant and disinterested, really seemed like a different personality from my friend that I had known for years. Your website was a lifesaver, helped me understand his behavior so I knew it wasn’t just me going CRAZY!
Thanks a million for saving me! I’m now NC with him. It feels so good!
thought this was relevant…
“Perhaps you’ll recognize this dynamic from your past or current relationships. Described as the ‘rejection-intrusion relationship dynamic’ by Family Systems Therapist Augustus Napier in 1978, it involves one partner (“the rejector”) feeling suffocated, stifled, and imprisoned by the relationship while the other partner (“the intruder”) feels rejected, abandoned, and seeks more emotional closeness.
Both partners in such a situation are suffering psychological pain. The stifled partner wants free of the confines of the relationship. The abandoned partner wants reassurance that the relationship will continue. As one retreats, the other chases and clutches more tightly. Each partner blames the other for the problem. ‘If only she’d give me space.’ ‘If he’d only be closer.’ Both believe that if the other would change, the relationship would improve.
Neither partner realizes each is reenacting old childhood conflicts. Intrusive partners seek ‘oneness’ with their partner – based upon the childhood desire for closeness with the parents. They want a relationship in which there are no boundaries between them. Their own identity is based totally on being in the relationship with their partner, rather than on a separate identity of self.
While intruders want to blur appropriate and healthy relationship boundaries, rejectors strive to limit intimacy by clearly marking off relationship boundaries. Rejectors often divide space, time, materials, activities, hobbies, and even friends into ‘mine’ and ‘yours’. They fear a loss of their identity if they become too close in a relationship. Some rejectors maintain their distance by participating in secretive sexual affairs.
To the outsider, it often appears that the intruders are desperately trying to achieve emotional intimacy and the rejectors are running terrified from emotional contact. The truth is that both want closeness and both fear intimacy. They select partners who keep them emotionally safe – partners who provide the distance they are familiar with from their early childhood.
While the intruders complain about their partners’ inability to express feelings, they actually fear psychological intimacy. They select partners who permit them to deny responsibility for the lack of closeness in the relationship. The partners who seek more distance in the…
Wow what a post! Seems to have struck a nerve with so many of us.Including my new namesake! Hi to the other Kay if you’re reading this.
Anyway,these words in particular really resonated with me:
“Whether someone is unavailable or not that interested in you, both tell you that you that you need to take a parachute, jump, land, keep running and don’t look back.”
All the years of angst I could have saved myself if I’d only made that my philosophy.Instead it was my cue to preen,pout,bat eyelids and when that didn’t work,downright throw myself at them.Talk about a fatal addiction to the unavailable! Nowadays my ass wouldn’t be fast enough to swing off that parachute. I guess we learn,eventually!
Thanks for a great post, NML. It came right in time for me today as I got a text from a guy I’ve just started dating. He said he doesn’t feel any connection with me… As an old habit, I started to analyze, almost enrolled myself in the BA Hons of “why isn’t he interested”. But this post helped me stop. The truth is, I’m not at all that interested either, as I saw many red flags from this person. Although I wish I were the one who opted out a bit earlier. There were only 5 dates, so the damage isn’t all that bad.
One good thing about this brief encounter was that I was able to state my Dating Intention to him (to find real partnership/relationship) on date 2, only to find out he always started things out “casually” (I know, shoulda pull out my parachute then).
One needs to always remember that if someone isn’t interested, it’s not about you. It’s nothing personal, it doesn’t make you less worthy. It’s your job to listen and find out for yourself about their interest (half-arse or not), as well as, assessing your own interest. I still need to work on “acting” upon my boundaries and intuition, but practice will make it better! 🙂
Chin
Love it. Top of the class!
Years ago I was BIG into this guy who with the perspective of hindsight,I now see was a BIG time Mr Unavailable. He was very unaffectionate,hated cuddles and holding hands,no spooning in bed but when it came to sex,he had all the right moves and couldn’t get enough.Whenever I used to broach the subject of his coldness he’d remind me of what a hot lover he was,how he couldn’t keep his hands off me and how that was how he expressed his emotions. I’d launch into psycho analytical mode and decide spot on,if he had the hots for me like that,he must really be crazy about me.Talk about using sex to get love,except that I didn’t get any.I just got sex,sex and more sex.Even his texts would be very racy,sometimes smutty but never sweet.Sometimes I’d pluck up the courage to ask him straight out how he felt about me and he’d reply,”I enjoy your company and I love having sex with you” Now if that isn’t a grade A cue to get the hell on that parachute and once landed jump and run for your life.But I actually hung on in there for over a year.I was totally miserable and lonely for most of the time and was convinced that something must be wrong with me.Eventually he dumped me.
I wouldn’t wish for anyone to be in that place.Natalie is so right.You’re either in or out,interested or not,no half measures please.
And we should NEVER change any part of ourselves to fit in with someone else. As someone else said,if a guy will reject all the wonderful things about me because of my shortcomings,then his loss!
Ah Kay – I do love you! You had me guffawing with ” ‘I enjoy your company and I love having sex with you’ Now if that isn’t a grade A cue to get the hell on that parachute and once landed jump and run for your life.’ He’s certainly got a pair of brass nuts on him. He reminds me of that Mr Pussy guy from Sex and the City that was known for giving head but was otherwise emotionally vacant and Charlotte tried to turn him into a boyfriend.
There’s not much you can do with a penis other than shag it so unless you do that 24/7, you’d be left hungry in all other areas of your relationship. Even then the sex gets old.
I’m learning not to drink my coffee while I read this blog. “There’s not much you can do with a penis other than shag it so unless you do that 24/7, you’d be left hungry in all other areas of your relationship.” Just snorted coffee all over my computer, again. How am I supposed to look at my male colleagues today without laughing?
Oh ya,I remember that guy in Sex and the city! Lol,Lol
Natalie,
You are 1,00000% true! After thinking about the past few days, I realized I was asking him to change. Change into something that would benefit me. I try to see the good in people & I guess my judgement in this situation was wrong. The funny thing is if someone does me wrong or hurts me, I can close the door & never look back. I’m doing the same w/this guy, but its hard. So far, I’ve been doing NC for three days as of this morning. My self-esteem in tact and I chuck it up as a loss. To the ladies & gents who post, I empathis greatly and it will get better. That’s one thing this guy didn’t take from me, my hope & drive for better. Let go and I am 🙂
It’s funny but I can also close the door/ enforce boundaries with friends, bosses, colleagues, classmates, family…but it’s next to impossible with EUM. Why is that? Why am I more hard on a friend than a would -be lover? What causes me to seek validation from an EUM but not (desperately) seek it from friends- who give it freely anyway? How is it that my normally strong, willful self is capable of cutting loose an unreliable friend or colleague yet not cutting off a man who consistently wounds me (or rather, whom I allow to wound me)? These are questions that have been perplexing me of late.
Meagen: I guess it usually boils down to some kind of bad (and unresolved) childhood experiences.
Anyway, the one thing I’ve learned in therapy so far is the following: It’s all about choices. Even if you think you can’t stay away from EUM/AC, you can. It doesn’t matter how you feel about it initially. You can make the choice anyway. No matter how much it might hurt at first, it will only get better over time – trust me! Both the no contact rule and the dating hiatus are powerful instruments. That’s why Natalie promotes them so much.
Me too……….this one guy is the only area of my life I have not been able to be ruthless and strong willed. My freinds have commented on this and noted this too, guess it’s when they pull at your heart strings and you are fooled into thinking something is ‘meant to be’. However when it comes to relationships I can’t tollerate demanding and unreasonable gf behaviour, it does my head in and often say ‘I NEVER want to be that way” BUt perhaps I have to take a leaf from their book now and find the balance on being nice, standing your ground without being the most accommodating clown in town. My mantra on ‘Accept bullshit, recieve bullshit” is what I live by in my career and other areas in life, my boss always comments he will never want go up against me. Still when it came to how I behaved in my long term ‘pseudo relationship’….I would brush off rainchecks, lazy communication, selfish behaviour, his GF even! etc I would at times think and say ” I don’t even let my freinds treat me this way, whythe hell am I allowing you to take me for a ride” My only explaination is the za za zu and that perhaps I didn’t feel capable of a real realtionship anyway and he probably picked up on it! But as Nat says, eventually that gets tired and unfillfulling and they eventually get lazy in the bedroom as they probably feel they have nothnig to proove any more or the need to impress you….and if they don’t feel they need to impress you, that is an issue and a red flag right there. Mine would even often say some things to purposedly unimpress me – manging down myexpectations I guess, Meanwhile I am thinking, gee I wonder why you are a tad fucked up I am going to discover and save the real you.
God this is cheaper than therapy. 😉
I think we can learn a lot from men as women. Even the bums and low-lifes who used and mis-used us women. I know I have…..have a life outside of your relationship and don’t give too much of yourself away!
I read these posts today from another blog. They tie in nicely with yours:
From a male viewpoint, which can (sometimes) be useful to hear.
Thanks for these, Grace – I liked them.
Indeed, I strongly believe that it doesn’t matter if he is emotionally unavailable or not interested enough. The bitter taste is the same one, and it equally hurts.
Nine months ago, I met a guy online, we live in the same city and work 10 minutes away from one another. After one attempt to meet me for a coffee, he back off and told me that his ex-girlfriend wants to get him back, that he wants first to put things in order so we can have a fresh & proper start. We have never met face to face, however he can picture a future with me and I can see one with him….So..I am the classic case of a smart and pretty girl in love with a 100% emotionally unavailable man – apparently things with his ex are clear and now he is in recovery process.
I firmly told him that I choose not to speak with him, because his behavior equals “he is so not into me” but he convinced me that it’s simply a matter of timing and things will become a proper, healthy and normal…relationship. I know…it seems dazzling having in mind that we never met in person.
I believe that the dilemma with EUM is how long should we stick around and see if the timing would be appropriate..especially if sex or crying on your shoulder or ego boosters are not involved and how much frustration and pain is needed in order to put an end.
However, even if it equally hurts, I could easier not stick around if I know the guy is not interested enough in me, versus having a great connection (he believes the same but it’s obvious not enough) and him being fully unavailable. I know that there isn’t something I could or should do…it is only a matter of choice – for me to accept or to say “no more bullshit talking”.
Soul
Whoa! He says he’s in the same city but won’t meet you. His ex has been trying to get back together with him but now it’s resolved. OR is it? The timing is wrong ( every single last EUM that we’ve dealt with has said that). You said you won’t speak to him but you do. You think it’s okay to stick around cos you’re not having sex. Maybe some hypothetical variation would hurt more, or less. You want a proper healthy relationship but are pursuing someone you haven’t even eyeballed. He’s always making excuses – he has an endless parade of them. The no. 1 sign of an EU to EU relationship (where both parties are EU) is Confusion. I’m confused just reading your post, never mind living the experience.
I’ve actually been there myself with a disastrous cyber “relationship”. I understand the pull of fantasy/hope/escapism. This relationship is mostly in your head.
A very small percentage of these internet chats become proper relationships. And of those that do, I’m betting there’s no ex, no bad timing, no failed dates, no nine months without a meeting, no attempts to finish it, no convincing someone to wait and giving them … nothing.
How long should you stick around? Nine months hasn’t been enough? You can grow an entire human baby in that time and you guys can’t even get coffee!
“How long should you stick around? Nine months hasn’t been enough? You can grow an entire human baby in that time and you guys can’t even get coffee!” *weeping*
Thank you Grace for your words!
I admit every single word you said it’s right.
Why I still…speak with him? Because we have lots in common, because I can picture something “positive”with him, something that I couldn’t with real guys. The way he communicates…except obvious RED FLAGS it’s only warmness, kindness, empathy. I never said that we have a “relationship”, I do keep my options open, I hang out with my friends and do things for myself,etc.
The main reason for sticking around is….the HOPE that we will meet face to face and I will be able to make SANE and REAL assumptions.
And I admit that I am afraid that stop talking with him, will end the craziness…and I will never have the chance either to go in the real world or…have closure.
And after reading many (extremely useful) posts here…I believe I might be even more EU than him.
I’m not one for giving or favoring blithe answers but…you gotta cut this guy lose NOW. Never met him in 9 mos and he’s 10 mins away? and he’s got an (ex?) GF? That’s about as EU as it gets. He’s using you for free therapy. As the appropriate if trite and sucky saying goes, he’s just not that into you. There is no “half available” (vs “fully unavailable”). There should be no “sticking around” on your part.
Timing? SoulUnderConstruction – If it feels like a long distance relationship with someone that lives in the same area code and works 10 minutes away, that’s a danger signal right there. I’ve seen someone that lives 3000 miles away, 5 times in the same 9 months. You’ve been put on layaway as a back pocket option. ‘Let me spend 9 months plus getting over my relationship and when I’m done, I might have a proper fresh start with you.’ What are you supposed to do in the meantime? Twiddle your thumbs? This is just a guy you met online and actually haven’t ‘met’ yet so this is akin to a fantasy relationship. He’s just not that special and there is no way in hell that you should continue any investment in this as it’s a non existent situation. Anyone who would spend the first 9 months of getting to know you lining you up for an ego stroke and back up while he tends to his ‘other business’ is taking the piss.
Timing is the great crutch of Mr Unavailable. Never, ever, ever wait around for someone to make up their mind about you. He snoozes, he loses. I think you have been more than generous – too generous in fact – and this is not a ‘connection’ – it’s a fantasy built on air. There are too many alarm bells ringing here and you should be hearing them. If you’ll invest this much in a man you’ve never met – what would you do with one you *did* meet? Take a parachute, jump and get into reality.
Thank you very much for your words!
I am realizing now, that I was the “perfect” idiot for him:
NEVER initiate communication and told him that I don;t call,text or make moves in advance when it comes to men.
I am always kind, funny, supportive, I don’t put him off when he fakes future…lately, he became more consistent and speaks about the fact that we SHOULD meet and have a drink,etc. That’s why my deadline is end of June…otherwise my end line would be:”continuing this situation means only lack of respect towards myself so I am afraid this can not and will not continue”.
I hope that I will be able to share with you signs of sanity 🙂
Thank you again for your words!
SoulUnderConstruction I know a woman who always says to me “We should meet for a drink”. She must have said this about 30 times over a 4 year period and it hasn’t happened. Here’s the thing: Meeting for a drink is as easy as this – “Hi SoulUnderConstruction. I work just 10 fricking mins away from you. Are you free on Friday to meet up for a drink? You are? Great!” That took 25 words. Now I’m not a gambling woman, but I’m going to hazard a guess that he’s not President Obama or David Cameron who incidentally, find time in their lives to have a family and social life. This guy has the same 24 hours, 7 days a week as the rest of us. Are you seriously telling me that this guy can’t spare an hour?
Do you know what wastes time? It’s never spending a bit of time getting to know someone, dating them, having a relationship. What wastes time is when you see code amber and red alerts and you do nothing and keep hoping that what you perceive to be a ‘mistake’ will correct itself so that you don’t have to admit you made an error in judgement.
He’s just not that special. TEN MONTHS by the end of June. He’s taking the piss!
SoulUnderConstruction,
Why not just pin him down to a day and time? I mean why wait until the end of June? If you feel he is sincere in his statement that you SHOULD meet and have a drink, then a natural response could be, “Great, how about this Friday.” Or whatever day. His response will tell you what you need to know much sooner.
I also knew a woman who was flaky about making actual plans, but liked to talk about it. Knowing this, when she suggested to me that we get together, I just sorta laughed politely, but said nothing. Then she INSISTED, “No, really, we SHOULD.” So, I said, “OK, let’s figure out a day and a time.” She then said, “Oh, well, I just meant sometime.” I kid you not.
Thank you for your replies and advices!
I have never proposed a 10 minutes coffee because I wanted to come from him – he wants to meet me, so he..does it.
It’s obvious that I refuse to accept the reality and the facts.
Until 1 month ago, his excuse presented from time to time was ” I haven”t had “THE” discussion (telling her that there is no way back…basically he put both of us in standby) with my ex, so I can finally meet you…””.and I took it, because I want it to believe it.
For the last weeks, he started the part with….what plans do you have for summer holiday?, “‘I would like to go to…X place, but I suppose a blind weekend would be too much for you to handle” – probably he projected he own incapacity to spend 2 days with someone – I said “I am sure I can manage it. My social skills should suffice”:))
And…..the top of the stupidity: Now, my problem is that he would think I am nuts if I cut it off after coping and coping and coping.
One idea I have in mind:
In case he will be online tomorrow, I will casually mention a club where I will be going out with some friends – an opportunity for him to show that he does want to see/meet me. And a Funny fact – last week, there was a book show in the same area where we work, we were speaking and I told him “‘ok, it’s time for me to go to the show. I will be back in 1 hour” An interested guy would have played the card….this one just needs me as a fantasy.
What I can not understand is why he can not meet me….as…friends. I mean even a married guy could drink a cofee with an online friend – having in mind the worse scenario.
Excuse me while I bang my head repeatedly against this keyboard …
Soul
Your post prompts me to make a general observation re calling. In my previous relationship I was quite proud that I never called. He initiated everything. Was it because I was so secure that I didn’t feel the need to contact him? Was it because he was calling me every day anyway, so it was redundant for me to call? Nope, I was afraid to call him. I was afraid that I would be ignored, or he would not be pleased to hear from me or that I would encroaching on his space. In normal relationships, men and women do not HESITATE to call each other to make plans. Sometimes several times a day. And they get answered! Really!
Also, by letting the man do all the calling we’re trying to let ourselves of the hook. “This has got nothing to do with me. It’s all him”. That way, we don’t have to take responsibility for allowing it to continue.
Third point – he’s trained you not to call. We may think we have the upper hand by making him to do the work. Ha! Insofar as he’s thinking of us at all, it would be “grace is cool, she never makes demands on me like other chicks do, i don’t have to be bothered by any of her business, she just fits in with my plans.”
If we’re proud of the fact that we don’t call/text/pursue/approach whatever, we need to take a cold, hard look at why we are clinging to that. Maybe it’s the only bit of dignity we have in a very unequal arrangement. The Rules has a lot to answer for!
By the way, I can’t resist sticking my oar in again. Another month? For a moment I thought you might be winding us up. But I give you the benefit of the doubt as I’ve been there myself, and kindly point out that June is a wonderful month, summer is coming. Don’t spend it waiting for him.
Thank you Grace for putting in words what I had in mind when writing the comment! Indeed, not chasing him (calling, text,even initiate YM conv) is the bit of dignity I still have.
And you are right about the fear of being rejected/feeling uncomfortable….I admit, even if sometimes I do feel the need to initiate things…I prefer thinking that if he wants, he calls.
And yes, by not initiating conversation – I can lie myself saying I am not the one who chase him.
I agree 100% with you.
Reality check: I simply create the perfect scene that does fit his agenda.
Ohmygod, Grace, I have so been there! I would feel very secure in the delusion that I was doing everything “right” by never calling first, texing first, etc. The reality? I WAS TOO PARANOID TO CALL HIM. I mean, really, in what viable relationship between two adults is someone too paranoid to call?!
Even if it seems to be opposite, I am a normal 27-years old girl, well educated,with a good job,etc….My friends can’t understand how I can be so not me when it comes to this guy; they know I cut these guys off in real world, that I don’t take bullshit and that I am the one offering proper advices bout relationships,etc…BUT when it comes to my specific situation, I am blind..I read tons online about dating, relationships,etc but apparently I choose what I want and I take it out from the context to suit my agenda and validate my (wrong) beliefs.
I do hope I will be able to write to you that I have shown a little dignity and respect for myself so told him that enough is enough.
Funny enough I bumped into a guy who I went on a couple of dates with last year but he ended it saying we wouldn’t work out as a couple which I accepted he asked again to take me out saying he had made a mistake! But somthing didn’t seem right he wanted me to keep chasing after him he asked me out not the other way round it was if he was doing me a favour by asking me out again if someone like you enough like they keep saying they would go out there way to take you out now from this site I know the signs he just wanted a ego boost from me and I have more repect for myself to chase after a guy who dumped me the first time around and he won’t get the chance again lol!
Posh34 This man is a tool. You accept what he says and then he asks you out again and then starts yanking your chain? Flush!
Thank you so much for this post. For me I had been kinda seeing this guy for a while (obviously wasnt for him, of course). I cant say too much of a bad word about him because as a mate he is super which is how we started, but he has a complete inability to be anything more than that. I didnt realise this until more lately and I have told him to bugger off until Im comfortable to actually be his friend again and nothing more!
Looking back Im so ashamed to let myself be swept up just because he is such a nice guy when he is a mate, doesnt mean he still doesnt have those annoying manly traits that means he is unavailable. He was willing to be intimate to me apart from have sex which I believe now was his way of making him feel like he wasnt actually using me because we werent having sex, when to be honest, I would of rather we did just so I could of got something decent out of it.
Oh well, since not talking to him I have found I have much MUCH more self respect, i take no rubbish from any guy, even if he was a priest. Ladies, if a guy doesnt want to make that tiny committment to just be yours then drop him, I was scared of loosing the friendship but its either that or loosing your sanity, I know which one i would pick any day!
WOW!!!! That was great for me Natalie! You read my mind this time. The AC keeps sniffing around but he has nothing to offer. I know he doesn’t, but he thinks he DOES. I know he isn’t really interested – he says he is … interested. It’s vague and watered down and shadowy – in other words: it’s a bunch of bull. Here’s a quote of yours that nails him
They think if they’re enjoying themselves and they perceive you as ‘benefitting’, they’re all good.
He thinks that sex with him is my benefit. He totally does not get it when I say I want more … idjet!
Annied – tell me, please tell me that you and this jizzbag excuse for a man are not still sleeping together? I’m gonna have to put you on house arrest! This man is no prize. Stand your ground and let him go and infest someone else’s life. He’s dicked you around more than enough. He doesn’t know his arse from his elbow. Uncertainty is his desire trigger. When you give him the time of day, uncertainty over. Stop telling him you want more and that should you be in need of a penis, you’ll find one that’s not attached to Hollowman.
Oy, once you discover he’s The Hollowman, no matter what his Cirque De Soleil tricks in the boudoir, the sex actually sucks. Just me?!
… 🙁 guilty as charged Natalie. I totally expect you to come to the states and lock me in my house! No need to give all my stupid reasons and excuses … I’ve slept with the AC again. But I must say that Natasha hit it when she said “the sex actually sucks” – cuz it does. So what’s my problem? Who knows? Anyway, as if after all this time I haven’t been mistreated, humiliated, embarrassed, put down, put out enough, I have to tell you the last text the AC sent me. Natalie, I do not plan on responding to this right away, but I would like you (if you would) to compose a response to this text he sent … for me to say to him later. I know he will come back around eventually.
What he wrote could not have been more humiliating … when I read it, my heart dropped and I felt violated somehow. Here he is, the master manipulator telling me he knows my game.
“Let the doctor take a crack at this. you have accepted you cant have this your way but cannot rip the bandaid off. by asking and expecting me to make the commitments and efforts that we have already established weren’t happening only one of 2 things could happen. either you push me so hard i leave and rip the bandaid off for you, or i actually make the efforts and commitment and then u are justified for having continued.”
Do I feel like a complete FOOL? You bet. Natalie, I want him to feel the same horrible feeling I felt when I read this. Can you come up with something for me to say? It may be months before he contacts again but the first and ONLY thing I want to say to him will start with… “Let the doctor take a crack at this ….”
You are an Angel. Thanks for not giving up on me.
I’d respond with “Actually, we both know that you’re certainly not going to make those commitments AND you’re certainly not going to ‘leave’ either…not unless ‘leaving’ suddenly looks like disappearing for a while and then trying to slink back in for some sex when you think the coast is clear. So don’t worry yourself, I’ll rip off the bandaid for the both of us because last time I checked, no-one’s held a gun to your head and ‘forced’ you to have sex, and let’s be real now – you and the mediocre sex just aren’t that special.” Don’t respond to anything else from this jackass
If he wants to call he will call, if he wants to text he will text , if he wants to see you…he will make time to see you. simple. It’s not rocket science. And if he doesn’t…..move on ….FLUSH…. its really not worth the analyzing…..really !!!!
Ah.. but often they call and call and call. And text and text and text… they are there but they are not. Coming in and out to get their fix and you yours. It’s important to distinguish between someone who’s “just not that into you” who doesn’t really call and someone who’s around a lot ready to take anything that’s on offer except for an actual committed relationship that involves respect, care and trust. I know it kept me confused for a loooooooooooong time someone who called an texted me OFTEN, I didn’t flush him because by those tokens only.. he was totally into me.
Hi Brenda,
I totally agree with you. I don’t think anyone getting out of a marriage should be dating so soon. In regards to my situation, here’s what he told me: they were seeing eachother for 2yrs & got married a yr later. He said he wasn’t ‘in love’ with her & they were having problems during the marriage. Mind you, they hadn’t been married long( it was 2yrs in Jan 2011..). He claims she was abusive to him verbally and ran off w/their daughter several times. When him & crazy girl(this is the woman who sought me out by going through his fb friends list & contactevery woman on there to find out who he was messing with.. mind you, she’s not the wife) got together, it was early 2010 & he was ‘seperated’ from the wife. They we’rent in a ‘relash’ but were fwb & she caught feelings & went crazy. She’s 36, he’s 24 and I’m 31.. fun! And I had met her in TX, but didn’t know any of this bs till later.. Crazy is claiming she’ll ‘up the duff’ & blames me for him not speaking to her & she went to his soon to be ex about them, lied to her saying me & him had been messing around for six months(I just met him in January!) There is more but its drama. Lol. He did contact me on Wednesday night from work apologizing for how he treated me & that he didn’t realize how much of a ‘miserable d**k he was to me. Then said he was unsure about us bc of the distance. I laughed at him and said, real talk be with me or let me go. In my mind, I already have made the decision to let him go. I’ll let him wallow in his EU behavior & confusion. I’m moving on with my life & he isn’t apart of it. At one point I did think it was me, until I went back & looked over the past few months & realized it was him all along. Sometimes I wonder why we as women let men get away with so much bs.
I discovered your site about 3 months ago and I enjoy all of your articles. It is good to know I am not the only one suffering these confusing signs from the EUs and ACs. In doing my own research, I have come to the conclusion that EUs and ACs are in fact BULLIES! Bullys get a “high” off of controlling and demeaning others for their amusement. Thank you for all the insight.
++++Here’s how it stands – you’re either in, or you’re out. There’s no such thing as 10/20/50/75 or whatever percentage available or interested. You’re either in, or you’re out. You’re available or you’re not. You’re interested or you’re not. It.Is.As.Simple.As.That.+++
Natalie, My MM used to say that things are not always black or white, and that my world, through my eyes is is seen in only black or white. Thank you for your post. He is available or he is not. He is not. So I need to move on for me. Its black or white and he wants it gray so he can still have control over me.
Thanks so much for all your posts. You ROCK!
Oh Natalie,
Excellent, excellent, excellent article.
Thank you!
Sydney
Nat, do you really think it is this simple. Either they and you are “in or out”? If a guy is interested will they really step up and make it clear under no uncertain terms to let you know they want to be with you? From taking that first step to asking you out to a full fledged commited relationship?
Riley,
If I may comment on your question… obviously neither party can know if they want to be with the other long term on the first few meetings or in the first few months… but at whatever stage the relationship is actually at, be it the first date or the fiftieth date, we do know whether we are willing to give it a fair shot or whether we are not willing to do that. It is about whether someone’s intentions are good – either they are or they are not.
So yes, I’d agree with Nat that either he is “in” or he is “out” – or he is just up for messing you about! (hey that rhymes!)
I liked Natalie’s straightforward take on it: “in or out” – “interested or not interested”. That’s pretty clear – no ambiguity there. No hiding places, such as “but last night he was all over me like a hot rash, and yes I know that since then I haven’t heard from him for two weeks but he did send me a text message last Sunday morning calling me “babe” so that must mean he is interested and will want to see me again!!)
It’s the idea that “kind of interested” and “sometimes he’s in and sometimes he’s out” is not worth giving yourself up to – 10%, 25%, 70% interested equates to “not interested”/”out” and just up for messing you about.
I like the simplicity of it. It makes good sense. I now think that we (I) analyse too much of a whole lot of imagined ambiguity (I did, and am still trying to stop doing it!!). We look for ambiguity (and he is happy to make himself ambiguous!) so that we have some place to hide – to avoid the awful, hurtful, truthful simple fact that he is actually “out” (or he is just messing you about) . We like to think it’s not as simple as that largely in order to look for excuses to stay invested. But it is that simple, I think.
And no wonder we look for hiding places – it’s a very, very hard to face the reality of yourself and of the person you love and want to be with. I am still struggling but the lense gets clearer every day and Nat’s “in or out” I like to think applies to me as well as to the “dead interested”(!) EU man I have been involved with for many years (on and off!! Of course. Half in half out = messing me about!)
Riley
Yes. It’s that simple. Ive had a few relationships that were fairly normal (the early ones, before I went off the rails). Some were very brief – as soon as either of us realised it wan’t right for us/we just weren’t into it, we finished it with minimum drama. No blowing hot and cold, no sniffing around afterwards for casual sex or ego strokes. I had two long term relationships from when I was 15-26. It was my emotional unavailability that screwed those up BUT I was in no doubt that the men wanted to commit. The first one wanted to get engaged when he finished his studies, the second asked me to live with him, introduced me to all his family, was always just THERE. No hot/cold etc, future faking etc.
My benchmark now for a good relationship is one that IS NOT CONFUSING. It really is as simple as boy meets girl, boy asks girl out, boy and girl get to know each other, they get engaged, they get married, they have a long and fulfilling relationship. It’s not boy meets girl. Girl isn’t sure he likes her. So she asks him out. He is ambivalent. They have what feels like a FWB arrangement. Her ex gets in touch. She’s confused. She tries to get the new guy to commit. He disappears. He comes back. He says they should make a go of it. Then she finds out he was seeing another woman on their break who keeps texting him … ad nauseum.
If it’s not simple it MOST LIKELY won’t work. Because it’s not a mutual relationship, it’s more an arena for playing out emotional insecurities.
Spot on Grace! You have a good way of explaining things.
What is “Hokey Cokey”?
Thanks, I needed this today. <3
It’s a wee dance and a song where everyone puts “…one foot in, one foot out, in-out-in-out, shake it all about…” just like the hot and cold, on again off again EU pattern.
You put your left foot in you take your left foot out…you do the hokey pokey or the other words and you shake it all around…that’s what it’s all about…you do the hooookkkkeeeeyyy pokey (or hoke y cokey) you do the hoooookeeeeepokeee you do the etc…lol
basically you put a part of you in and take it out and finally you put your whole self in and take it out…is a dance…in and out/hot and cold eu perfection
Talk about timely! The day before this post came out, I attended a conference with someone who had been giving some mixed signals for awhile; very caring and attentive or cold. In my infinite stupidity, I attributed this behavior to the fact that the “cold” times were when we were on the job (yep, a colleague; we live and work in a remote mountain area with quite literally NO men to date and I am not in a position to leave for a long time) and were his way of maintaining a professional attitude. He had made numerous references to his “alone” status and had been actively doing the on-line dating thing during the past few years. Imagine my shock as he walked out of his hotel room with a woman who once also worked with us. Nope, doesn’t matter why; an AC is an AC. No Contact time for sure.
I had never dated an EU man until three months ago so I found myself opting out as soon as possible, I would say, “You’re either in this or not” and he would reassure me and give me attention and affection and the cycle went on. A week ago, I left him because we had gone a week without seeing each other, he cooed that he would make dinner for me to make up for it but then didn’t take my call that night so the next morning I left him. I hate that I know I’ve done the right thing for myself but yet I can’t stop thinking about him. I’ve been NC for a week and I can just tell he’s going to sniff around as soon as I’m over him.
I need to figure out how to handle the stuff swap that hasn’t been done, AC told me he would drop it off on Monday…it’s Saturday. I refuse to allow this stuff to enable me to have an excuse to still have a tie with him. I would just leave it but unfortunately, I require my portfolio for future job applications and he has it. So frustrating, I just want to be done with it and move on! I feel like a weak part of me is waiting for him to contact me about giving it back because I certainly don’t want to initiate contact about it since I already did when we broke up.
He’s been passively agressively updating his status since the break up as a means of comunicating, I believe. I think I should remove him from my cell contacts so I don’t even have to entertain seeing his silly ramblings but another part of me is not over him and keeps his number. I’m at a loss for how to progress at the moment.
Sew,
Don’t be in on Monday – have a friend at home to take your stuff from him at the door – or get a friend to arrange and collect from him. (Stop looking at his status – it’s holding you back – block him). But you know this already – you know that it’s not essential to contact or see eachother personally to arrange or pass over the left behind stuff – it is not beyond the wit of man to devise another means of achieving this! It is *always* no more than an excuse to have some contact with them – and what is most humiliating is that they already know this.
If he/they were genuinely interested in (or emotionally available for) laying the foundations of a potential ‘proper’ relationship or taking the relationship forward in a positive way, this is what would be happening – *now*. We must never lose sight of that.
Thank you Fearless, you’re right. I’m taking control and I’m going by to get it from his sister while dropping his crap off. Cannot wait until it’s over with, then I don’t have anything to blame for holding myself back from moving on, only myself.
Hi all, im very new to this web sight, I just kinda stumbled on it, and im so glad I did! I have been seeing this guy for almost 2 years off and on, he is 11 years older than me, im 35. In the begining he chased me, was so sweet and caring, loving, passionate, told me he loved me after a few months, then gradually i fell for him too. when it was good, it was very good, but when it was bad!!!All of our fall outs were throught txts, all arguments, throught txts! We dont have very much in common, he tends to dislike whatever i like. he doesnt have many friends, he doesnt like my friends and wont spend time with them. He has a very negative mindset, he is always moaning about something! Whenever we fall out, i do all the running, making up with him, he never tells me he loves me anymore, is barley affectionate to me, i always have to initiate sex, its driving me nutts! We broke up a few days ago and i decided on the no contact rule, however he turned up tonight and asked if i needed to go to asda, which i did, i dont want to fall back in to the routine, which ive done many times in the past! a few weeks ago we were talking about living together, but i feel this would be a very bad move, since we can barley get on! i love this man with all of my heart, i kno he loves me too, but i fear its its his past holding him back, he has had a few bad experiences with women! but havent we all went thru bad times, u build a bridge n get the hell over it! I feel he is depressed as well, he doesnt look after his house properly or himself, while i can empathise with him, i aint gona feel sorry for him as he is more than capable of sorting his life out, perhaps he just needs a few tools in order to get there. do u think this is a man who is emotionally unavailable? any advice, comments ect.. would be greatly received! thanx for reading xx
this is obviously on a little bit that has gone on in our relationship, there are so many other factors!!! head is completly stuck up my ass right now 🙁
Louise,
is he an EUM? YES!!
And some!
Read BR and find out what and who you’re dealing with with this guy.
Read your comment back, down to the point where you say “he’s driving me nuts”. And you’re charmed by this character? Why? What is he offering you that is of any more use than a chocolate tea-pot? How many other women do you know who would put up with this kind of crappy behaviour from a guy? Why would they not?
You say he’s had bad experiences with women in the past. I can guarantee you, Louise, it is the women who have had bad experiences with him, just the same as you are having now – they all walked, and so will you, eventually, and he will explain to the next one how he had a very bad experience – with you! (As Nat would say, he has danced this dance many times before! The Hokey-Cokey is the only dance he knows)
When you wise up a bit (and you will in time) to what you’re really involved with here I hope you’ll find this part as funny as I did:
“i decided on the no contact rule, however he turned up tonight and asked if i needed to go to asda, which i did,”
You do not break NC so you can go the shops for yer messages! 🙂
LOL! I thought ASDA was some kind of health related clinic or something serious, worth accepting a ride from this jerk. It’s a grocery store? Louise, yes, I think at some point you’ll find that pretty funny!
Hey Fearless< thanx so much for ur reply. I totally cracked up about the asda thing, tears streamin down my face, it was so funny!!! lol I guess its me who continues the cycle huh?
Your right about the other women, they must have felt the same as I do now. My new no contact plan is in action! I dont need him for anything, Iam self sufficient!! Sure i will have moments of weaknes, its a test of character tho eh!
Its great to know that there are women out there willing to help and share knowledge with me and get me thru this! for that iam very greatful to you all xx
Hi Louise,
Welcome to the site – hope you get a chance to read through as many of the archived posts as you can. No doubt as you begin to read, you’ll recognize that many women here have been in a similar situation to yours.
Your ex does sound emotionally unavailable, yes. But it doesn’t sound like you need that label to be able to recognize that he is negative, lazy about communication, lazy about his own self care, and unsupportive of your friendships and interests. It doesn’t sound as though you need help figuring out what to do: you broke up. It sounds like you might be able to use some support while you stick to no contact, which you will definitely find here.
You wrote: “but havent we all went thru bad times, u build a bridge n get the hell over it!”
Great philosophy, and that is something that many of us (me included) have had to learn – and came here to learn it. You’ve got a huge head start. Your attitude sounds really strong. This guy’s dead weight. Cut him loose and find someone who adds to you, not sucks energy from you.
hi magnolia< thankyou for your response. I think i felt cheated out of a boyfriend, as he was so good in the begining and now he is not! I thought where has he gone? surley he will come back! So ive held on to this relationship, clung to it even, I relished every little crumb he threw my way. While the whole time my confidence plummitted and i became more and more insecure! He is the kind of man who would infact do anything for me, in a physical sense, such as take me somewhere in the car if i asked him, help me out finacially, basically anything that does not include any sort of emotion! This time last year i had a misscarrage, he took me to the hospital as the misscarrage had to be induced since the baby had died a few weeks before. He left me at the nurses station and went home, i was devastated, i had to go through it alone! He said he cuddnt cope with it, i feel he just didnt want the hassle of watching me in pain! I think that was the turning point, when he became distant! I can only imagine what ur thinking, why the hell did i let him back in to my life after that? I was very vulnerable and seemed to need him even more, the less he gave me, the more i needed!! I feel so stupid! Looking back now, i think i must have came across as desperaqte and clingy!! I have had 3 proper relationships up till now, and none of them are what i would call healthy normal relationships, they were all emotianolly unavailable men!! I obviously need to change!