Women Who Talk (& Think) Too Much - Wasting time explaining & discussing with men that don’t want to listen
I was reading a comment on one of the posts which reminded me of a scenario that I come across all the time on this blog:
Woman thinks she’s met her prince, when in fact, he’s a cockroach assclown, which deep down she possibly suspected. From the moment he starts acting up, it becomes a quest to ‘change’ him and to get him to understand things from her point of view. He keeps doing shitty things like disappearing, standing her up, lying, cheating, having his words and actions contradict and generally being a pain in the arse, and what does she do?
Keep talking.Women Who Talk and Think Too Much syndrome is something I discussed in more depth in my book Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl, but in short it’s:
“when you just can’t stop discussing, explaining, questioning, arguing, debating, and yes, sometimes talking to your man and when that
is done, you often switch to ‘thinking’ mode, where you basically try to think out your relationship to a 100% outcome. You have covered up your inaction in relationships with your urge to ‘communicate’. It is basically an overload of communication except there is very little ‘exchange’ of anything. You’ve actually been struck down with Verbal Diarrhoea and a serious case of informational overload.”
In essence, how do you know you have this? Well I won’t go into all of the ’symptoms’ and characteristics here but in short:
If you know that you’re with an assclown and you’re still trying to ‘figure him out’ and you’re still trying to ‘talk him round’, or you’re damn well near losing your mind trying to explain to him why his latest escapade is so shitty, you are a ’sufferer’.
You have become a woman of indecision.
Let’s look at this in a hardcore way:
If a man behaves like a complete assclown (in this case he arranged to meet her and then stood her up with no explanation), why do you think that getting angry and telling him how you feel, and telling him what he’s done, and telling him pretty much everything that is on your mind, is going to make a difference to this man?
Don’t you need to have an ounce of thought and empathy in your head in order for it to be worthwhile having this discussion? If he acted with integrity and if he empathised with you, or anyone for that matter, would he have put you in this situation in the first place?
In a relationship with good foundations, a healthy level of discussion is perfectly fine although you don’t want to spend more time discussing your relationship than living it. Trust me, if things are going well, you aren’t having these ‘discussions’.
But when a man shows you repeated disrespect and there is really only one of you in the ‘relationship’, why are you effectively blowing out hot air?
All you are doing is delaying the inevitable. You are buying time. But how much time do you want to buy? I know people who have discussed for a decade and they’re no further down the road than they were a decade ago.
Talking, whilst it is useful, doesn’t solve jack if no action comes from it. The reality is that with men who are unreceptive to anything you have to say or who hear what they want to hear anyway, it is a complete waste of your time to:
Keep have ‘defining the relationship’ talks - If you have to keep defining, it’s not being defined.
Keep explaining why his poor treatment of you is unacceptable - If he’s treated you badly again, why do you need to explain to him what he has done. He knows. He is not an unruly pet or a child, even if he behaves like one.
Keep telling him what things could be like if only he’d change and be as you expect. Just not going to happen. He either is or he isn’t and you will end up telling him till you are blue in the face and even then, he’s not going to change.
Keep saying you love him - Do not make the mistake of believing that telling someone you love them will give them reason enough to treat you decently. With an assclown, it will give him reason to think he can do as he likes…
Remember: All of this talking and lack of action is just wasting time and buying time, but at some point, you are going to have to do something.
Your thoughts? Have you been in any of these situations?
If you want to learn how to understand your involvement with Mr Unavailable’s and how to move on, check out my new ebook Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl. Find out more and download.
Astelle October 9th, 2008, 5:57 pm
NML, love this post. Looking back - I am so glad that I never had any of these discussions with my EUM, never told him that I loved him, accepted his behaviour way to long and then I dissapeared for good by cutting the contact.
FinallyOverIt October 9th, 2008, 6:20 pm
NML, you are completely on target with this one! I had “the talk” with my ex-EUM about six months ago, where he admitted what a jerk he has been and that he has treated me badly, etc., and we decided we would be “friends.” He has been the text book EUM since that time–blowing hot and cold, ignoring me for weeks, months at a time…..I finally had that “defining moment” when I realized what a complete assclown he is, and that he will never change, and I AM DONE. No amount of talking, psycho-analyzing, crying, begging, trying to make them realize what complete jackasses they are, is going to change anything. And the sad part is how much of our lives are wasted in the pursuit of trying to get these men to love us or to change their behavior. It’s just not going to happen!
Ashley October 9th, 2008, 6:35 pm
Yes - happened to me with quite a few EUMs. One in particular over the past couple of years.
These guys just shouldn’t get our attention or time, period. The last time I was with my ex-EUM, (4 months ago) I decided to try the strategy of just having fun and not talking about “the lack of relationship”. First of all, it was definitely discussed a little bit - it’s hard to get away from it when really - that’s all you have.
But for the most part the evening was very physical, and spent talking about him and his perceived issues. How his ex wife is horrible, how his Dad is a jerk, what’s wrong with various people he works with. The overriding message being “You are great Ashley, but this is all I can give you because I am so injured”.
So we had this “fun” night (and it was on quite a few levels) where we didn’t “talk” that much about our relationship problems but at the end of it - he went home, sent me an email saying “that was a fun time - thanks” and I was left feeling very empty.
A couple weeks later I tried calling him and asking him to talk and he wouldn’t take my calls. I finally allowed us to discuss the situation over email. I opened up by saying “I don’t see why things have to be awkward between us”. What was his response?
“Awkward? How is it awkward? I haven’t seen you.”
There you have it. Once he left my place - he sent me a freaking “thank you note” and I left his head entirely.
But he didn’t leave mine at all. And it took me a good three months to recover from that. It’s undeniable what it did to my esteem and my interest in dating.
Now I am back to my positive, healthy esteemed self, dating again, and he sent me nonsensical, semi nostalgic emails last night. I just deleted them without responding. I saw him in the hall today (at work) and he gave me a big wave. I was down the hall, I gave him a pinky wave (my hands were full) but I couldn’t help but glare. I don’t do “breezy” when I am annoyed or angry.
So - my comment on the “diareha of the mouth talking about an unhealthy relationship” is that - when you cut out the talk - if it’s an unhealthy relationship with an EUM - you are left with - nothing.
Maybe it’s all the “talk” that keeps us there. Keeps us hoping things can change for the better.
As I said to him that night: “the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.” I told him I was tired of being with him and hoping that things could work out between us. That I just wanted to enjoy the evening. Well - I still got the same result - I felt like cr*p - maybe even worse than ever before because I knew we had NOTHING.
I’m venting - I am annoyed that I feel a pull to call him today and ask him how he is in response to his emails. But I just keep thinking about all the cowardly things he did or didn’t do when we were together. And you know what - I think I can let this go without a conversation. He wouldn’t think twice about it if he was me.
Karen October 9th, 2008, 8:11 pm
I went back to my ex after being divorced from him for ten years. His words and actions in the beginning gave me reason to believe that over that time he had grown, understood what he wanted, and as he said, what he wanted was me. We were married for six years and over the ten year span we would see each other periodically but never anything more than a date at a museum, lunch or shopping. We live two hours apart, so bumping into him was never an issue.
The last two years of our marriage was the talking cycle described. I woke up when a friend said to me, you told me this three months ago about how he was going to change….. I didn’t believe him, and sure enough three months later, I was saying the same thing!
It took three short months for his true colors to come brightly bursting forth. We had one conversation together, a couple of emails, a phone call and then I realized that I was going down the same path, fortunately the span of a week and not two years!
Logically I know I’m doing the right thing, part of me still wants to talk just a bit more….. but deep down, I know it will get me no where.
Cynnie October 9th, 2008, 10:45 pm
NML, I’m Guilty as charged!
I really thought that if I explained how he upset me and how his actions hurt me that it would make a difference. It didn’t. I’ve thrown in the towel and have been on 3 weeks NC. I’m so much happier now. Changed my number and blocked the fool on the Internet/instant message.
Your post is spot on and that described me exactly. I’m done talking, pleading, explaining and discussing. I’m done!
JC October 10th, 2008, 1:50 am
I can’t stop talking either! I’m not sure how many times I’ve told my EUM that he’s hurt me. After three weeks I broke no contact, had a long conversation with him, where he explained his “issues” again and why he is like he is. I accepted him back, but realized my mistake when I thought about what he said and realized that it’s the same answer (I’m just not ready for that) that I’ve been getting for a year. Nothing has changed at all. Now I’m too embarrassed to mention it to my friends since they are tired of hearing me repeat the same stories as he repeats his behavior. I’m going to try NC again, I hope it works.
tulipa October 10th, 2008, 2:42 am
I sat across the dinner table at a restaurant not too long ago it was just after he had told me he had had sex with another woman.. my voice said during part of the conversation ‘you have hurt me” and he said “I don’t know what to say to you”
That struck me has very odd at the time because if someone said to me I had hurt them with either my words or actions I’m pretty sure my next words would be “I’m sorry.” So anyway after a while I told him again how his actions had hurt me and how I was feeling etc. again very little response still no apology except a sacastic one…. The next time he rang he tried to bring up my feelings but I cut him off and said was I?? I don’t recall that at all… there is no point to talking and telling these guys .. they don’t give a toss at the end of the day and like NML says if they were decent guys in the first place then we wouldn’t have endured their unacceptable behaviour…. They will only change when they want to and not before and not for anyone except themselves..
ivyowl October 10th, 2008, 3:49 am
I made this mistake countless times with other guys. So When I made this mistake with Steve I was aware of what I was doing. I knew the talks we were having was just me delaying what needed to be done, and what needed to be done is us breaking up. I was in denial and still trying to fix it.
I guess never giving up on something is a good thing. Things are hard but problems can be overcome. I am impaired mentally so sometimes I have to take a class twice to get a good grade. I have to try and try again.
Thing about guys though, you have to know when to quit trying to fix things. I personally try for far too long.
wendy levy October 10th, 2008, 9:02 am
Sometimes when I read Natalie’s posts, I just think WOW! Perfect! So Clear! And even though of course I feel that way about this one, this one really made me cringe inside. I was that very woman six months ago,and had been for close to two years with a really awful EUM. I used to talk to him until I was blue in the face and most of the time, he was watching TV while we talked. Or he’d be lying on a couch, staring at me with a blank look on his face, and he’d say absolutely nothing at the end of my very well thought out persuasive explanation of why whatever the dreadful thing he had just done to me, was in fact dreadful. And when I was done, he’d go back to his book, or his TV show, and I was left feeling unheard and uncared for. And I did this over and over again. He actually more than once, told me if I ever had a relationship talk with him again, he’d leave me. And he did a few times, or he’d yell at me. And I always ended up apologizing, saying I love you, and grovelling my way back into his good (or not so good) graces. And just like Natalie says, when I couldn’t talk about it, I’d think it to death. All I thought about was him, our problems,how to fix it, what I could do to change him,or change me….
The only way I got over him was because we broke up with such intense drama that it was undeniably clear he was not worth my time, energy and love. It was an incredibly painful breakup nonetheless. But I’ve got to tell you, I did no contact all the way, and now, I’m so over him. I only think about him in terms of lessons I’ve learned from being in relationship with him. I now find it appalling I accepted his crummy behavior and told friends and family I loved him. How embarrassing in retrospect. No wonder all my friends told me to run! And so, articles like this one do make me cringe but keep me vigilant. thank you Natalie.
lisaq October 10th, 2008, 11:53 am
I’ve been there more times than I care to count! In the past these scenarios were the rule rather than the exception. It amazes me that I actually thought I could get through! It’s like trying to dig through a cement wall with a piece of licorice. Completely futile! Honestly, I have more luck talking to my cats. This is just one of the patterns you’ve helped me break NML! And thank goodness!
keri October 10th, 2008, 2:24 pm
Ok.. seems like we all have this in common.. I can tell you my story of wanting SO badly to text my EUM and ask him if he’s happier now without me..with this new girl than me? I also talked and talked and cried and begged to his face.. with NO response…
my question is… now that we KNOW that it’s really because we don’t love ourselves..
HOW do we take the steps, (besides NC) to NEVER LET THIS HAPPEN AGAIN!!
That’s where I am… I FIRMLY can see that I’ve continually pined for men who don’t want me as a way of validating i’m not worthy… Ok.. I see it.. I acknowledge it and CANNOT deny it..
where I am now is WRACKING my brain to find a way to break down this wall of self loathing… THAT is what we need to focus on.. that I would love an answer too..
I am also one that thinks too much and talks too much… ok.. we all recognize that.. now…
WHAT TOOLS/STEPS CAN YOU REALLY GIVE US SO THAT WE WORK TOWARD NOT BEING THIS WAY AGAIN?
that’s where I’m plagued as of late.. Help?
keri October 10th, 2008, 2:49 pm
But let me say that I am SOOOO grateful that this website and all of you are out there… after reading all this… has totally shifted my almost obsession to wanting the EUM to “answer me!” to realizing that it wouldn’t matter WHAT i did… I’m always going to end up dissapointed.
Thank You all!!! and Thank You Natalie!!!
Kim2 October 10th, 2008, 4:18 pm
Good post.
I left EUM a year ago. See him all the time though as we live in small town. Last night I heard he has talked to others about intimate things we did. It wasn’t negative - he was bragging but WHAT A BA$TARD!! I am so tempted to put a fake add on Craigslist for him - but I won’t. I won’t do or say anything because I won’t give him the satisfaction of knowing it hurt me.
SuzieQ October 10th, 2008, 4:28 pm
I am also guilty of this. I would write long e mails to my EUM and I would ask him about his view of the relationship and his feelings. I would get one line answers such as “that was well said”. The last one I wrote was about how I wanted him to give just a little teensy bit more or else I was going to have to move on. His reply was “I understand”. Not “ok, I will try” or “ok, move on”. He couldn’t even give just that little bit, couldn’t even let me know which direction I should go in. After almost 3 years of this I finally had enough. I changed my phone number and deleted my e mail account. I know that I am weak and will give in if he contacts me. I had to do this. I agree with Keri, now that I have taken the steps to get out of this relationship, how do I make sure I stay out and what steps can I take to make sure I don’t get into this situation again?
Astelle October 10th, 2008, 4:56 pm
Kim2, he places personal ads on Craigslist?? How do you know it is him posting? What a trash site!
Astelle October 10th, 2008, 5:04 pm
SuzieQ, he gave you a “direction” by saying “I understand”, he said: I know you are not leaving, I know you will stick around.
And you did and I did, we all did and some of us are still there.
I am glad you finally had enough and hope you are not responding if he makes contact. Don’t let him suck you back in!!!
Kim2 October 10th, 2008, 5:29 pm
Astelle — no he doesn’t place ads or probably even know what Craigslist is…. I thought about putting an ad there for revenge. I am not going to do it but thinking about placing a personal for “man seeking man” entertained me for awhile. Not worth the effort though.
wendy levy October 10th, 2008, 5:32 pm
Suzie, My EUM did the same as yours. I’d send a really expressive e-mail that I had put alot of work into trying to explain to him, and he’d say “well written”. Or, “I understand”, which was a lie.Or maybe he did understand but just didn’t care. Who knows. Amazing how there are so many of these men walking around appearing to be “normal”,until we are hooked and sinking. My EUM seemed so “nice”. From a good family, (but he was a huge mama’s boy), a good dad, a high school teacher with a few long time friends…. they just disguise themselves well.
My EUM was my second. I got involved with him shortly after my divorce from my 25 yr long marriage to an EUM. The second one, who I’ve been referring to, was in some ways even worse than my ex-husband.
Now I’m involved with a non-EUM but he is also a sort of people pleaser. But he tries. I’m not totally sure about him.Its been about 3+ months now. I can communicate with him and he listens. But the people pleasing thing is hard for me. This is him- what can I do for you today? What do you want to do? What can make you for dinner? What restaurant do you want to go to? and it goes on. But at least he tries to please me, in and out of bed, and this is a first for me. And we’ve had talks about his people pleasing ways. and he actually listens closely and we talk and he shares…But sometimes it almost feels like the reverse of an EUM- I’m still doing some of his work when I have to make the choices. But I am able to explain this to him, and he doesn’t come to it from a bad place. Just not sure if its right or not…… Hard to know after all the crap
What is making a huge difference for me is continually checking in with myself about this person, vs.how I felt about myself with my ex-H and the more recent EUM. With them I always felt I had to do more, try harder, felt badly about myself, was humiliated or embarrassed or felt degraded. I don’t feel this way about myself with my current guy. I think if I had a bad feeling about myself with a new guy, after all I’ve gone through, I’d run.
Perhaps just being aware of how we are feeling is a first step? I journalled alot too, at Natalie’s suggestion and that helped alot. Six months later I have recently gone back and read what I wrote back then. I can barely believe I was in a relationship where I felt so terrible about myself that I let a man treat me that way.
Natalie, if you are around, I’d love it if you could pursue these issues- after the breakup how do we stay healthy in our relationships?
SuzieQ October 10th, 2008, 6:40 pm
Wendy, same thing with my guy - excellent father, longtime friends, admired at work. Maybe by the time he got around to me there just wasn’t anything left. I’m not sure. I made excuses for him for years, but the fact is, I am very busy too (single mom) and I didn’t ask for much from him at all. I would have been satisfied with only seeing him once in a while if he made me feel wanted in between. For example if he didn’t have time to see me but just sent me a little text saying “i miss you even though I can’t be with you” . But in the end he wasn’t even doing that. I would get an e mail or a text around wed saying “lets go out Sat” then on Sat morning I would get a text saying “be there at 6″. That was my only communication in between. And sometimes he would have to work on the weekend and not bother telling me. Crumbs! I was accepting crumbs! Now that I am out of it I can look at it more objectively and I can’t believe I put up with that.
I have dated really nice men in the past and just wasn’t interested, so I know where you are coming from. Try and give him a chance. I know for me, after what I have been through the next guy is going to have it so easy. He will only have to be halfway decent and will seem like a God in comparison to the last EUM!
Kim2 October 10th, 2008, 7:08 pm
Thats funny… if the next guy is halfway decent he will seem like a god… FOR SURE! I won’t know what to do with myself if the guy is actually kind, respectful and fun (and passionate)
brook October 10th, 2008, 8:13 pm
God…I have to say something here..I just felt when I read this post that NML was actually referring to me…I would always make it a point to explain to my EUM how much he hurts me by his actions,how much I like him…hoping that he would understand…Not once has he reciprocated the way I would have liked him to.He would instead get annoyed with me…accuse me of emotional warfare..and stop talking to me for a couple of days…and suddenly he would appear out of the blue..and the fool that I am,I would end up answering his call hoping that this time things would be better only to realize that nothing will change…Not once has he cared to appreciate the emotion or pain in my words…my messages…Sometimes he wouldn’t reply…and i would feel like a fool at the end of it..Cursing myself for expressing my feelings to a stone hearted man and being ashamed of myself for having done so…This has happened so many times now that I have lost track..nice article..I just hope i can follow whatever is written here…
Kim2 October 10th, 2008, 9:28 pm
The thing I cannot figure out is since these men do not really CARE why they get mad when the woman calls it quits. Mine did that and put on the quite the show flirting with other women in front of me - which I simply ignored. I don’t talk to him and he doesn’t talk to me but I know he talks ABOUT me to other people. The last thing he said to me (a few months ago) was to “go talk to your boyfriend” about a guy friend of mine. He acted jealous but I don’t know why since he didn’t want to have a relationship with me. I haven’t gotten involved with anyone else YET but when I meet someone right I will. What’s the deal with the anger when you leave?
JC October 10th, 2008, 10:12 pm
I often mistake the anger when I start NC, as my EUM caring, but it’s not. It’s an ego thing. I keep telling myself that if he decided to stop calling me for some reason he just would, he would have no problem ignoring my calls and texts so I need to treat him the same way.
But I’d like to know what happens after? I met the nicest guy (totally on accident, I was actually celebrating my NC before I broke it) and he’s treating me so well that I don’t even know how to behave! He calls, texts, tells me I look great and listens. He commits to plans with me days in advance (actually shows up) and is genuinely interested in my life. I can feel myself shutting down a bit cause I’m thinking “my EUM didn’t care about any of this stuff so why do you?” So how do you deal with the poor guy who comes along after an EUM?
Kim2 October 10th, 2008, 10:22 pm
JC — I’d like to know that too. I have gone on a few dates this past year with nice men but I shut down too. They bore me and I start thinking I’d rather be home watching tv by myself. I don’t want the EUM back…. in fact his anger and trying to make me look bad to mutual friends is actually helping me. I don’t know what to do with a genuine nice guy either. Isn’t that sad?
wendy levy October 10th, 2008, 10:27 pm
JC,
I am so grateful to you for writing that. I don’t know if you caught my post a few above yours, but I’m having that exact same situation with my nicest guy. The man I’m seeing makes dinners for me, wants sex to be good for me, wants to help me out in my day, is great to my kids, listens, cares, I feel heard…. and there is that nasty snippy little part inside of me thinking “what is wrong with you?
And when I think about that voice in me, its that part of myself thats been treated so badly for all my life by men that I think any guy who cares this much about me is a loser.
My ex- EUM had all his clothes in my closet but didn’t actually live with me. He had his own place. He stayed in his place Monday nights and would tell me he “cherished his time alone”. He’d get furious if I called him monday nights. And he had his kids with him friday nights. He’d go back to his place after work, do e-mail and whatever, come over to my place, eat dinner I cooked him,I’d make him lunch for the next day, I’d do his wash, and he’d be asleep by 9pm. Friday to sat. evenings with his kids, sunday was golf day all day with his buddies. He got mad if I wanted to have relationship talks, he’d threaten me. Sex was horrible. He’d just stick it in, and even though I ultimately talked to him about it heart to heart, after trying to show him, he ignored me there too. I always felt so used, but evidently had so little self esteem, it didn’t matter.. When I wanted him to give of himself, and asked for something, he’d call me “pushy” or ‘needy”. He told me things like he could not make a commitment to ever live together, and just wanted to live the days. If I asked him if he saw my in his next Christmas or Valentines Day, he’d get furious. After my mom died, he left me because he told me I had “too many problems”. I had asked for more of a commitment and he refused straight out to give me a commitment. Creepy huh???
So along comes the nice guy, who listens, cares, wants to make my life better. On the surface, that sounds so fabulous. But I’m not used to that.
How do we deal with the guy who comes along after the EUM?????? It really isn’t as easy as it seems it should be.
wendy levy October 10th, 2008, 10:39 pm
ps… Kim2,
Oh good grief. I so relate to what you said. With my nice guy I too thought”BORING”.
But what I realized was just like that whole series of posts Natalie wrote some time ago, I was horrendously addicted to the drama. It was the total lack of drama that was boring to me. And seriously, my EUM was such a boring man. Teacher by day, addicted to golf on TV at night. He was as anal as they can get. He had to wake up at 4am every weekday to go work out before teaching, he had cheerios in his classroom every morning. The first year I knew him he took a 1/2 bologna sandwich and an apple and chips to work for lunch, every day. SERIOUSLY. The year we were together he switched to peanut butter and honey. Every day. I made it for him. He was incredibly shut down and a mama’s boy to boot.
Besides all the personal degradation and misery he brought to my life, he was so boring. But there was drama!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It was me trying to change him.
So now I’m with the nice guy. Who loves me for the person I am.No drama. Boring? Well, I’m getting used to the lack of drama now. It took a while. I still have my own EU issues that I’m really trying to deal with.
This is such a great topic, so glad other women are experiencing the same stuff!
Thanks for listening and sharing.
Wendy
NML October 10th, 2008, 10:40 pm
I will write about the next guy tomorrow. Thanks for all of your comments which have given me plenty of topics! x
SuzieQ October 11th, 2008, 12:59 am
Hey ladies, my guy was boring too. If he were to ever smile or have a good time I think his face would crack. BUT, the sex was amazing. That is what kept me hooked. And of course the drama. I am definitely addicted to the drama. In fact I have never had a relationship that lasted more than a few dates that didn’t include some sort of drama. I am embarressed to admit that but it is true…I have never had a lasting relationship without drama and I am 40 years old. How sad is that!
wendy levy October 11th, 2008, 2:11 am
Natalie, Thanks for saying you’ll write about “the next one” . You are such a lifesaver. I really attribute my success for getting over my EUM, to you, your listening, support and advice.
Suzie, I’m 56. I got divorced from my ex-H 3 years ago and then had that dreadful 2 yr relationship with the EUM/heartbreaker afterwards. So you’re lucky! And it seriously can get better. I’m really seeing it now…. but its still hard and still work , to make a relationship with a “nice guy”work.
Wish there were drugs to help us get off the addiction to the drama!
This may sound a bit sappy but its really nice and I use it kind of over and over again. I do alot of yoga and a friend of mine ended a class a few months ago saying “love as you wish to be loved”…. that kind of turned it around in my head a different way. I’m not the sappy sort, but I do want t o see myself not being impatient and bored with the new nice guy, even though there is no drama involved. So I’m trying.
Take care everyone, Wendy
JC October 11th, 2008, 8:21 am
It’s so new with my nice guy that I haven’t gotten bored yet, but I now realize that my EUM was incredibly boring. We never did anything, he’d watch TV, sleep or play on the computer when I was around. So why is it that when the new guy calls I hesitate just a bit before answering, even though I know we’ll have a great conversation, but when the EUM calls I jump only for him to talk for maybe two minutes before he rushes me off the phone? I’ve had normal, loving relationships before, this was my first real EUM so I’m not sure how I even got into this mess, but I’ll be out of it soon. I’m going to resist the urge to have another “talk” with him, he doesn’t deserve to know why I’m not answering the phone and I’m all talked out! Wish me luck with the nice guy.
wendy levy October 11th, 2008, 8:26 am
I’m feeling so angry with myself tonight. My nice guy was over this evening. He actually made dinner for me and brought it over with a movie that I’ve been wanting to see for a long time. I was feeling very disconnected from him and not attracted to him at all tonight. It didn’ t help that I found out I have a huge tooth cavity and need a root canal monday. But that aside, sometimes his very niceness, turns me off.
I hate to admit this, but in some ways, I am being the EUM and he is me.
Oh good grief, does it get any worse???!!!! I seriously don’t want to be this way!!!!
Wishing you all the very best, Wendy
Gerog October 11th, 2008, 10:05 am
Oh my God, it’s as if this post was written about me - a few months back, at least.
My attentive, affectionate long-distance bf morphed into a douchebag. After 3 months, he suddenyl became ‘too tired/busy’ to talk, and I found myself begging for attention and affection. He’d say he wanted to be with me or spend time with me. Of course, I jumped at the chance. Then he’d be ‘too tired’ for sex or just a cold fish in general.
After a period of NC we went on holiday together and I raised concerns that without us re-starting our relationship, the trip would be a waste of time. His response was ‘I don’t want to go there right now’, and ‘let’s not put too much weight on it’. My response was to keep talking. I’d ask him to call me, and he’d say ‘OK’, then not call me.
Funny how he was never too busy to leave messages on another woman’s MySpace asking her if she was around that weekend to meet up, but was too busy to find out if I’d got home safely after we’d both got home from a holiday in the Caribbean (arranged months in advance).
Long story short, I never should have talked to him as much as I did. Perhaps I should have listened to his signals that he didn;t want me, but when I challenged him on this, and his behaviour, he’d say ‘I don’t want to break up’ and basically pussy his way out of saying: ‘You’re right - it;s not working and we should break up’, when I told him as much. He also denied treating me like crap and said I was talking rubbish, when it was blatantly true.
He was the kind of man that needed to have the last word; when we were on the phone he wouldn’t let me go when I had to, but when he wanted to go, that was it. Bye. Same with the relationship; I made it clear I wasn’t happy and that for both our sakes it should end, but it only ended on his terms, or so he thinks. I got an email saying he’d wanted me around, but I hadn’t picked up on his hints (he kept dropping hints that he wanted to see me and I deliberately took the bait to see how he’d react, which was by suddenly being ‘too busy’ to discuss it) and therefore we should leave it. Me, I was busy getting over him and Not Contacting him because I knew it was over.
I’ve been in good relationships that went sour and relationships that started off without a solid foundation. Now I’ve met a guy who, so far, has been wonderful (I’ve learned not to bet on potential!). Based on my experiences, what I would say to anyone who loves to hear the sound of their own voice with their EUM is this: Shut up and walk away.
It’s that simple. It’s good to talk, but if you find yourself having to ’sell’ the idea of a relationship with you, or point out certain obviously unacceptable behaviours, then why are you bothering? You can give him The Lecture all you like, but he will NEVER CHANGE. And he DOES NOT CARE. So I’ll reiterate: Shut your mouth, and walk away. You’ll be glad you did.
Gerog October 11th, 2008, 10:19 am
BTW: I’ve been reading the comments again and noticed that we don’t know what to do when we get a ‘nice guy’. I nearly fell into the trap of thinking that after a while, my new bf will get bored and start being a dickhead - and told him so!
We talked about our relationship history and he was a little paranoid that I’d cheat, as he’d been cheated on twice. So both of us talked about our insecurities and oddly, it bonded us. Those neuroses have been left in the past, where they belong.
Be open about your experiences and realise that in matters of the heart, men break as easily as we do - they show it differently. A good man will listen and take your insecurities on board, rather than dismiss them or ‘come to the rescue’. Remember that we deserve to find someone who loves us the way we are, and will support us through tough times - not cause them.
Karen October 11th, 2008, 1:26 pm
Gerog - I just read your posts! Thank you! Your comment “It’s that simple. It’s good to talk, but if you find yourself having to ’sell’ the idea of a relationship with you, or point out certain obviously unacceptable behaviours, then why are you bothering?” That is what goes over and over in my head……. “to what end?” Each of us at one point thought our EUM was just a tad different and that we could fix them/it and that we could show that it could be done…… and we are all here saying - Nope sweety is just not worth our time.
There’s a certain sense of failure that we have to overcome, that we were not able to be the one that changed him.
There’s a certain amount of trust we have to hang onto, that yes there are nice guys out there that we will be involved with.
If our logic could be instantly be transposed into emotions, none of us would be here.
These posts have given me a strength that I haven’t needed in years. Thank you all!
Sabrina October 12th, 2008, 11:30 pm
Been there, done that. Maybe if you explain one more time he’ll understand? Not!
I dated a guy a few years ago where I was talking too much and he was doing too little. Then I wised up and stopped believing his crap and watched his actions. In a nutshell, I covered my ears, opened my eyes and shut my gob. Worked a treat.
This allowed me to watch his actions and see him for what he really was - selfish and not having my interest at heart. My only regret is putting up with as much as I did!
You remind your partner to take out the bins. Pick up some milk. You shouldn’t have to remind them to call you, treat you better, be there for you, include you in their plans or love you. If you been having the same old discussion over & over, it’s time to bail out. These men will suck the life out of you! It will hurt like a bit@h, but you’ll get over it.
Shut up and run as fast as you can in the opposite direction!
brooke October 15th, 2008, 7:40 pm
Dear friends,
would be greatful if any of you could advise me…NML would be happy i you could respond…I have written about my EUM earlier.He is insensitive,rude and just dosen’t understand me.We were supposed to meet 10 days back but in the last minute he backed out citing some office work.I was really upset cos’ I hardly get to meet him.I sent him messages expressing my hurt and after a while he responded saying that he was tired of my emotional warfare and could not stand me anymore,had reached a tipping point and so on.We have had fights before…all for the same reason…I would want to meet him but he would give some excuse or the other…Two days after this I tried calling him to set things right.He did not answer my calls and when I texyed him saying that I wanted to talk to him he sent me some rude responses saying that he did not want to talk with me after all the emotional trauma that i had give him.I was really hurt but still expressed hope that things would get better.For a week I did not contact him though I hoped everyday that he would get in touch with me…Yesterday I got the shock of my life when I came to know from a common friend that my EUM was quitting his job and relocating to the neighbouring city.I was shocked taht he did not care to inform me.Something as important as this and i was kept in the dark…i could not digest it.I texted him(since he had stopped answeing my calls)saying that i had come to know of his plans and wanted to wish him luck though I hoped that he would call me and try and explain things.He coolly replied back wishing me luck too.I could not take it anymore.I sent him a message saying how angry i was that he did not care to inform me and that i did not want ti see him ever agin..he replied that it was because of my negativity that he did that…I was not on his mind anymore nad that’s why he did not tell me.I sent him another message trying to explian how hurt i was,how i could never forgive him,how i had always valued him…you know what his response was-LEAVE ME ALONE PLEASE.AM REALLY FED UP OF YOU.Not to be left out,i asked him to get lost.Since then I have been feeling lost,foolish,humiliated and miserable.I seriously do not know what I have done wrong.I have only liked this man nothing else.I have always wished him well and apart from asking him for his precious time to interact with me more often I have not demanded anything.This is what I get to hear now.I want to give him a piece of my mind…but there is no way i can contact him now.I want him to realise what a grave mistake he is comitting by treating me like this…Above all I feel hurt that the one I liked so much is putting me through this…what should i do…lambast him…remain silent…apologise to him…please tell me…
brooke October 15th, 2008, 7:45 pm
And you know what…after all this I still feel sad that he is leaving.Even when he was in the same city we met just thrice in the last 10 months and all the 3 meetings were initiated by me.They turned out to be good but the next day he would go back to his cold,distant self…I would wonder what exactly was happening here..was this the same person I had met only yesterday…He would accuse me all the time of being demanding…when he knew how much i liked him and still do….
wendy levy October 15th, 2008, 9:20 pm
Hi Brooke,
We’ve all been there. Please do not apologize and please don’t lambast him, at least to his face. You can lambast him on this site, in your journaling and with your friends who are willing to listen. He has c learly told you by his actions, inactions and words, he is not interested in having a relationship with you. Even though you do not feel strong about this inside yourself, act as though you are strong and do not contact him at all in any way. Not directly and not through mutual friends. Don’t text, don’t e-mail, don’t call.
When my EUM dumped me he just moved on. He was back dating on internet sites not even 24 hours later, and we were living together, sorta, had been together close to two years, and my mom had just died. He didn’t care.
We saw one another about two months later to return stuff to each other. He looked me in the eye and said “I feel nothing to you and never really loved you.”
Its hard to fathom how this sort of human being exists, and its hard to figure out your guy and how they think and feel. So read everything you can Natalie has written on these boards, read her books, and don’t contact him. Just dont.
Hugs to you, Wendy
Astelle October 15th, 2008, 9:43 pm
Brooke, you need to calm down. Stop chasing this man - he is not interested.
Read NMl’s advice to me in the Archives under January 2008. I just cut the contact and YOU need to do the same.
You said: want him to realise what a grave mistake he is comitting by treating me like this…
What do you mean by that sentence? Leave this man alone, no txt, no calling, no nothing.
He said: LEAVE ME ALONE, yikes, what more do you need to hear?
Don’t apologise either - he may not respond and you will be crushed again.
Take what dignity you have left and leave him alone.
The only thing that you did “wrong” was making contact with him over and over and him just blowing you off.
Kez October 18th, 2008, 12:43 pm
Been there done that!!
I have learnt that with EMU men, they really just don’t have the emotional intelligence to GET IT anyway, so there is no point in wasting your precious time and energy on trying to discuss the relationship or trying to fix them or be their therapist…I’ve tried it ALL and it HAS cost me my health, and at times almost my sanity!
I am learning to put myself first now…healthy and happy relationships should not be this stressful and difficult.
Kim2 October 29th, 2008, 4:10 pm
So glad the site is backup because I have been in withdrawal!!
I have a question for all of you. My ex-EUM was a total assclown - to me. He has a new woman now and it appears he is quite nice and decent to her. Drives me crazy and I am totally over-thinking this and trying to figure out if he changed or if there is something just so special about her that he can be good to her but he couldn’t to me.
Now I am not a delusional 300lb toothless troll that thinks I look like Elle McPherson — but I look just fine, no one has ever complained about the sex, I have manners, work at a college, own my own home and have a great sense of humor. Yet he was never interested in having an actual relationship with me and that is why I quit the whole thing. I am still very attracted to him physically.
I doubt these assclowns actually change but what is going on when they appear to treat the next woman great? I see him all the time and it is like a slap in the face. I was a doormat but this woman is a prize? Does make sense since she is still married (hubby #2) and recently filed bankruptcy. She is nice enough but I can’t for the life of me figure out why her and not me.
keri October 29th, 2008, 4:16 pm
Kim2.. I hear ya.. NML wrote a post on this “Don’t envy the other woman” Easier said than done I know!!! I am in the same boat.. wondering if he’s treating her better.. I’m not an ugly baboon either.. but I’m wondering if he’s magically able to give her what he couldn’t give me..
I know the answer.. it’s NO. he’s not.. he’s not giving her what he gave you.. He’s on his best behaviour and eventually he’ll go back to his emotionally ill equipt ways.. but he’s putting his best foot forward now.. trying to impress her and have her in the same trance that WE were in..
Still sucks… that feeling..knawing at your stomach.. and heart.. waking you up at nite.. Yea.. I understand.. You’re not alone.
SuzieQ October 29th, 2008, 4:47 pm
Hi Kim2 - There are several reasons he might be treating her better, maybe he views her as not as good as him, where maybe you were too good. Sometimes guys need to feel superior. Did you ever hear that saying that misery loves company? The guy I just broke up with treated me terriable. But he was married for 18 years to a women he worshiped. She was a drunk a drug addict and cheated on him over and over, yet he still worships her. I couldn’t figure out why. But he turned out to be a lousy boyfriend, just like she was a lousy wife. She was more on his level then I was. They were two miserable people who could party together. He could get drunk and be hung over all the time and she wouldn’t judge because she was doing the same thing.
Kim2 October 29th, 2008, 6:18 pm
Thank you Keri and SuzieQ. The guy was a jerk to me and I don’t know why I am so miserable over him. He promised everything but delivered nothing. Always flirting with other women… telling me intimate details about other women he’d been with. Yet he would get jealous if I talked too much to another man. Didn’t want to do anything with me like go on a normal date. Said he was too busy, liked to be alone, didn’t want any strings. In the beginning he told me he’d only loved three women in his life - his mother, his girlfriend, and a mutual friend of ours that he had known all his life. Said he would never be divorced because he would never get married… but at the same time said he wanted a little boy that would look like him. [GAG] and I still stuck around. Now that I see him being nice to this new woman I am torturing myself wondering if that could have been me. After I walked out he was very angry and put on a show of flirting with women. Now I hear he has been bad mouthing me - this after a year of not being together. He has said some terrible things about me and I don’t know why. He said he liked to be alone - I let him have that so why the anger? With me he wanted to be ALONE so he wouldn’t have to actually be involved and could have other women. It appears he has changed his mind now. Could it be this new woman is the right one?
She is not better than me but I beat myself up daily wondering about this. Why her and not me? Maybe he has found his happiness and I just wasn’t it. Can a man go from “no strings” to wanting the real deal with someone else? I suppose he can. He is a waste of my time and energy. It is my self-esteem that is damaged.
De November 4th, 2008, 8:14 am
Hi NML,
i recieved you mail last night, thank you sso much for taking the time. I don’t even thing about the ex eum anymore, moved on and happy.
I love this post, thank you so much.
Reading everyones comments I wondered what I could write,you all seem to have
I decided to write about my new flatmate. She’s 25 sassy and empowered. I’m 45 and still trying to figure out what I’m doing wrong. I watch her and I learn. She met up with this very cute guy and he was all over her for a couple of weeks, then she realized everytime they went out he would open up a bag of drugs…hmmm she said to me ‘red flag one! then she asked him not to contact her for two days cause she had some intense deadline (and I know she did) she needed to get down and concentrate 24hrs to get the work load done. when she turned her phone on halfway through the work there were something like 17 messages from him, some drunk, then he turned up at the door. She went out with him but came home furious, she said he had not respected or listened to her needs. The next day she called him and said… “strike three you’re out”!! She never mentioned or spoke of him again and was out the next night finding someone more suitable. I like the strike three rule and have put it into practice. Three redflags and they are out!
written it for me
I’m so glad she is in my life watching her took my attention off assman and just being her cheering audience gives me power and a refreshing look at how we don’t have to be the victim. We can do to them as they do unto us.
xx keep strong find someone that gives them what they deserve, watch laugh and learn and stop wasting time on time wasters, life is too short!!
xx De