Going through a breakup can be tough. It can leave you feeling restless and struggling to fill the white space left behind by the relationship. You experience a myriad of emotions, and sometimes, you feel guilty or even blame yourself for why the relationship ended. This is all the more reason it feels like a big fat kick in the teeth to discover that your ex is an overlapper: s(he’d) already begun a new relationship before breaking up with you.
You’re grieving the breakup and even missing them; they’re already on a new adventure with someone else.
You can’t help but feel replaced in these situations, and that hurts. There’s also feeling duped if discussions (and/or sex) took place during their overlapping. It makes you wonder what was real and what was fake. There you were thinking that your relationship still had a chance, and they already knew that it didn’t.
It’s painful and unfortunate, but sometimes we meet our next partner before our current relationship ends. It doesn’t necessarily mean that something happens, but yes, sometimes our heads get turned. We feel deeply attracted to someone, and we know we cannot continue as is. Some people know that their feelings have changed with no physical overlap. Some people start something else and then have to find a ‘good moment to break bad news’.
Many people have experienced at least one emotional overlapping at some point. And a lot more people than would probably admit it has started a new relationship before ending their current one. It’s not habitual, and it’s for a short period, and it’s likely regretted. In these instances, their actions don’t reflect who they are in the main. They felt deeply conflicted, guilty and even ashamed at the time, and sought to end their existing relationship as soon as possible.
Overlapping happens towards the end of a relationship that isn’t working, even though one of you might still be fighting for its survival. Or one might be unaware that the other party is even thinking of breaking up. The overlapper may justify their actions by claiming that the relationship was “practically over” or claiming that they told you they needed space.
Habitual overlappers don’t like to leave a relationship until they’ve got another one to go to.
The people they move on to are bridges providing an excuse and an exit from their current relationship. Or, an emotional airbag that provides a soft landing.
It’s as if breaking up can’t be about not feeling the same way or incompatibility. Instead, the other party practically has to be a serial killer before they’ll leave.
Or it’s the whole “Well they’re not beating/cheating..” When they can’t ‘villainise’ the person, and in fact, this person is even trying to people-please the hell out of them or fighting hard for the relationship, overlapping becomes their go-to exit strategy. They can claim guilt and finally have a ‘legitimate’ reason to exit, or their new flame will pressure them to move on. Job done.
Let’s be real, some people don’t do being alone very well. I know a few people who’ve never had a clean break between relationships. They think they’re serial monogamists, but they’re more like serial feelings avoiders.
Some people need to have their ego stroked elsewhere when they experience relationship problems. It gives them reassurance because getting attention and possibly the offer of another relationship from someone else must mean that the problem isn’t theirs.
Instead, they just transfer and assume that new surroundings and a clean slate mean problem solved as if to suggest that they had no contribution and have nothing to learn.
It’s also safe to say that sometimes the new partner is/was unaware of the existence of their relationship with you when they became involved. When caught, no doubt it’ll be “Oh we were pretty much over by then!” or “Baby, I was afraid I’d lose you [so I lied]…”
Even if it didn’t get physical, overlapping equals an emotional affair. If their new partner was under the impression that they were free and single, it means your ex deceived them as well.
Whoever your ex overlapped with may feel flattered now and enjoying the honeymoon glow, but they don’t realise that your average overlapper and cheater is demonstrating that when faced with problems and conflict, they don’t do problem-solving. Eventually, they may find themselves being overlapped too.
Note: If you’re with an overlapper, ask about their breakups. If they’re a habitual overlapper, you won’t be the only one, although bear in mind that they may try to fudge the numbers.
I remember when an ex sobbed about how devastated he was as he ironed the hell out of his cricket trousers a little over a week after our breakup. A week later, I was at our old flat collecting stuff and listened to the voicemails, most of which were for me except one from 5 am the week before. “Hi…. it’s me…. Just to let you know, I’ve landed… I’ll try you on your mobile”. I felt like a mug, especially because I’d felt guilty and thought we were both struggling with the breakup. Of course, he denied it. One year to the day after our breakup, my friend bumps into him at a party. She chats to his “new” woman. Turns out, they’d celebrated their one-year anniversary a few days before.
Being overlapped can leave you feeling ‘replaced’, discarded, rejected. It’s like “Can’t you wait until…the frickin’ bed is cold? Or until I’ve got my stuff out of your place? Can’t you wait until we’ve been broken up for a month?” But they can’t.
Overlappers don’t do facing feelings, thoughts, or even their conscience. Their overlapping hurts a great deal as it jumps right into your grief, forcing you out of denial and even short-circuiting bargaining (a grief stage) because it removes hope. It’s easy to feel like it ‘must’ be you if they’ve moved on. Actually, them moving on doesn’t mean that the relationship issues were your fault. It also doesn’t mean that they don’t care; they’ve buried their feelings and are on the rebound.
It’s only human to desire courtesy and respect. You want your relationship to mean something, but the fact that your ex moved on doesn’t mean that the relationship is and was meaningless; they just don’t want to face anything. And they want a fresh start as soon as possible. It doesn’t mean that their new partner is better than you; it might mean that they’re ‘there’. Your ex will process the breakup while in a relationship (they’re probably avoiding it…). That’s not what you’re doing, and that’s a good thing.
Your ex’s new relationship may or may not work out. And if it does, again it’s not about you but more that they’re still the same person but have found someone who their values and characteristics (even if they’re dodgy) click with. Or maybe their current partner will ignore issues.
Ultimately, don’t lose sight of why your relationship wasn’t working as it’s all too easy to forget the reasons and make their new partner and this idea of you being ‘rejectionable‘ and ‘replaceable‘ the reason. All that’s going to do is ensure that even though you haven’t moved on, you don’t learn anything new either.
It’s not something you said. It’s not something you did. Overlapping reflects their character, not your worthiness.
Your thoughts?
Are you ready to stop silencing and hiding yourself in an attempt to ‘please’ or protect yourself from others? My book, The Joy of Saying No: A Simple Plan to Stop People Pleasing, Reclaim Boundaries, and Say Yes to the Life You Want (Harper Horizon), is out now.
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O M G. Needing this article and advice TODAY. Thanks again Natalie!
It’s also worth remembering, because it stands to reason, that you can be overlapped at the outset of a new relationship too.
While he’s all “Hey can I have your number?”, his bonafide girlfriend thinks he’s out for a pint with his mates. The reason why he doesn’t phone you til the following week could well be because, you know, they made these plans — he’s busy doing the family birthday get-together thing at his girlfriend’s parents house for the weekend and it’s not until Monday that he gets some time free. And at the time of your first few dates? Your first kiss? Your first whatever-else? He might not have actually bothered to deliver the good news to her yet. If the two of you work out, fine, he’ll shut her down no probs — and if the two of you don’t work out, meh, he can always switch you off and pretend nothing ever happened.
I think sosuave.com would call that a ‘win-win situation’. Because I don’t see no man losing here.
Grizelda,
Yes, you can be overlapped at the beginning, the end, or through the whole relationshit. I knew I was stupidly getting involved with an overlapper of the most obvious kind – the exMM – but I didn’t know he was a long-term double-overlapper extraordinaire! And all, he claims, because he “doesn’t want to hurt anyone”, “has trouble breaking up with people” “something was missing in his marriage/in our relationship” blah blah blah. I am so glad to be out of the overlapped, tangled, sick mess!
But speaking of sick, as I read down the first 16 comments that are visible on BR tonight, I got that spinny, nauseated feeling again, like when I heard about a potential new OW at night school. You know, I really thought it was weird for me to feel this traumatized by the experience with the exMM, but I think it may go deeper. Jennifer’s message below really struck a chord with me. I think the original trauma may be from before my involvement with the exMM – maybe from childhood (my parents both cheated on each other and I wondered where I fit in to their worlds).
Maybe, if this is PTSD, it has its roots in this “original sin” in my family. Why else would reading about all these other serial/multiple overlappers affect me with such strength?
Sorry to direct these questions at you Griz – you were the one who mentioned PTSD a couple of posts back, and I am trying to dig deeper into the possibilities. Kinda talking to myself, as I post to you and the whole world wide web, lol.
You have given me much food for thought. Thanks again Grizelda!
Learner,
I’m glad and also flattered that my homespun philosophy has been a help to you. Until I open up my global chain of Relationship Emergency Services that send ambulances for people who’ve just had their hearts smashed up into bits and ground into fine powder by their ‘beloveds’, I just have these words.
Just between you and me, cos as you say nobody else can see our confab, e-hem, I couldn’t actually read this whole article. Too painful.
People are overlappers because they WANT to be overlappers. It’s not a mistake, it’s not an error, it’s not an accident. That’s why it’s not something that can ever be forgiven — ever, ever. It’s a deliberate act to venture out and secure someone else before cruelly discarding the previous one they once led to believe they cared about. It becomes all part of their What I Did Next plan. Most insultingly they then make the most derisory attempts to cover up their crime (I think of how some dogs, after they’ve squatted, stand up and violently kick out their back legs, left-right-left-right, toes splayed, flinging a few lousy grams of dirt and grass in the general direction of their horrid mess), and try to make it look like their ‘new’ relationship six days later was just the most innocent and pure serendipitous good fortune surprise that just… somehow!… fell together. As if we were all born yesterday.
Why do they do all this? Because it makes them feel good. No other reason. Their egos grow and they smile inside. It makes them feel fluent in the language of attraction, a Formula One Ferrari relationship driver cutting like a hot knife through butter the bog-standard Jalopy 500 population of struggling daters and lonely hearts. “See what I did there? Didn’t even skip a beat. Yeah, that’s me. I get through admirers like lesser people get through hot suppers. That’s how I roll, you dig? I’m rockstar.”
It’s just not an aspect of breakups I need to focus on right now. It hurts, like looking directly at the sun hurts. You can go blind.
All I could think of to say was ‘watch out when you’re embarking on what you think is a well-deserved new relationship… because there might be a current girlfriend/boyfriend innocently thinking all is well who just hasn’t been dumped yet… which is yet another reason, as if we need another, not to jump into bed at date number three but to make him wait, wait, and wait some more until you feel it’s an all-clear.’
As for your own trauma, I see no harm in investigating how to take care of yourself as if you have PTSD, if you don’t want to go so far as to talk to a therapist about it. There’s lots of info about what you yourself can do to recover from the shock. It doesn’t have to go so far back as something that happened in your birth family — no, sometimes just a man you loved who lied to you and then deliberately shredded your heart and stamped all over your soul while making you watch him do it is quite enough to inflict the damage.
Grizelda,
Thanks Hun
Yeah, it IS painful to read this post, isn’t it? I feel you!
And you make great points about people overlapping to inflate their own egos. In your usual hilarious style. I swear, you should consider an evening job as a comedian!(or writer of children’s pop-up books)
Yes, the exMM looked so proud and puffed up when we were “together”. I was used to inflate his ego. Period.
And your description of the post-poop-puppy fits his behaviour perfectly – “flinging a few lousy grams of dirt and grass in the general direction of their horrid mess”.
Sorry you are hurting, too. I guess we should stop looking directly into the sun, huh?
Maybe you are right, too, about a single lying lover trampling all over ones heart being enough to cause the corner-cowering we seem to be doing these days. I think I will look a bit further into the PTSD, but I feel it can be handled without returning to therapy. Keeping the “no cheating and no tolerating cheating” boundary firmly in place will work wonders, hopefully. And of course, we must continue to work on ourselves 🙂 Hugs xo
Let us not forget that regardless of what state your relationship was in, ‘overlapping’ is cheating. Whoever they overlapped with may feel flattered now and be enjoying the honeymoon glow but they don’t realise that your average overlapper and cheater is demonstrating that when faced with problems and conflict, they don’t do problem solving. Eventually they may find themselves being overlapped too.
Yup. and this does ease my pain a bit. I was so lied to. It was all a game to him, and I fell deep in love. I*’ve learned a lot here.
“Let us not forget that regardless of what state your relationship was in, ‘overlapping’ is cheating.”
Yes, although I’d only qualify for many of the readers here who have been or are in abusive relationships, sometimes ‘cheating’ is not the worst thing in the world, and may even be a good thing if it galvanizes you or gives you needed protection to get out of an abusive situation. Obviously, it’s not ideal, but when you’re dealing with an abuser, I’d say traditional views on cheating fail to apply.
I agree with this from personal experience. I was in a very abusive marriage and the person I ‘overlapped’ with gave me the support and strength I needed to get out of a horrible situation and on to better days. We stayed together for 2 years and even though the relationship ultimately didn’t work out we are still really good friends to this day.
Snowboard & LMA:
I’m sorry but I have to disagree. CHEATING IS CHEATING.
Abusive (physical or emotional) is a justification and does not absolve you of this vile behavior. Where does the the justification on cheating stop? Don’t men who have cheated have similar justifications?
I was in a emotional abusive marriage for 15 years and I never once cheated even when I had a chance.
My values include not cheating. But then I hold myself to standards that I expect from others.
Exactly, Confused123. People need to stop making exceptions to the rule, the rule. I’ve noticed that with some readers here. Justify all you want, but at the end of the day, the rule still stands.
I find this offensively sanctimonious. I have never cheated, so I wasn’t trying to justify myself. But I have known women in this situation, and I would never in a million years look down on them for what they did.
Snowboard: Find it offensive or not. I’ll say it again, cheating is cheating. Women in your so called “this situation” need to find another method of handling this over cheating. Why not family, freinds, shelters, etc. I found a way out without cheating. It’s plain and simple justification.
Snowboard: FYI, I would and do look down on the women who use the “I had no other option than to cheat to get out” excuse/ justification.
Cheating is vile and any vile behavior (whatever the reason) will continue to be vile irrespective of how ever much you defend it.
As for abusive relationships, as I’ve said there are other ways OUT.
If you are going to cheat as a way out, OWN UP to it and don’t think that pleading abuse absolves you of your behavior..
I also fail to understand how cheating helps anyone exit a bad situation. A relationship started by cheating NEVER last (Karma is a bitch), so how exactly is this a healthy exit strategy out of a bad situation?
You’ve gotta be kidding me. :-/
Natalie, I was overlapped when my husband started a new relationship through work while maintaining the ‘status quo’ at home with me. Maybe it was guilt but if anything he had started showing me MORE attention. However, I have a finely honed sense of something amiss and I caught him out about 6 weeks into the affair. He denied everything and 19 days later ran for the hills. He is still stalwartly denying he is with anyone else but I know he is in contact with her. She is also married, so I imagine that he why he is covering things up. For me, the struggle is the humiliation that I feel and the sense of unfairness that he was willing to drop me so easily for someone he barely knew. It doesnt help that shes younger/prettier/glamorous. Help, so can I shift these mental images??
I was a serial overlapper. I was so emotionally disconnected and clueless that I didn,t think the men would be bothered if I left them. I was always surprised that they were bothered. I left because the relationships had got boring, distant, or abusive. But of course there are more grown up ways to deal with it than cheating.
The current boyfriend was not an overlap and is the best relationship to date. That.s no coincidence.
Grace,
Before my transition into emotional availability, I believed men did not hurt and had no feelings. Truth is men and people, even if unavailable, register hurt on some level, even if they don’t appear to show it. The people I hurt, abused and rejected (though none more than myself), were negatively effected by my carelessness. We all hurt ( as in hurt others and feel it). But great and weight need be applied to our thoughts before our actions. There was someone in my life who I treated terribly and she finally stood up to me (yay for her!) I saw I needed to treat her better and in every instance in our interactions I try, I make it a point to treat her with care and respect. Luckily she’s forgiven me and she is now one of my favorite people and a great asset to my life. As for the men thing, that is still soooo difficult for me to see them as being capable of hurting and feeling.
I admit when I was younger in my teens and early 20s I was exactly the same I had no idea what I was doing and would overlap relationships. I too was clueless disconnected from myself etc.
BUT I woke up to the fact that this was no way to treat people and changed my ways to break up properly with people.
I have more work to do but at least I am decent about things.
Sounds so cheesy but it always brings a smile to my face that things are going well for you and the bf.
My partner of 13 years overlapped with my “best” friend. Quality people. She still works in my office. Apparently I was a terrible friend. And he’d been unhappy for years! Well that was how they justified their duplicitous behaviour. Like I didn’t feel bad enough, they had to blame me for my own pain. Treacherous, vicious and cruel. There is truth that the real person shows out when under pressure. Was true for these two.
I haven’t posted in ages, but my ex-husband is the Global Spokesperson for Overlappers. When we first dated, he had a gf- he told me he was single. He cheated when we lived together, when engaged and throughout the marriage. I found emails that he had “other women” to his other women. He has back-ups all over the place. I discovered his latest trick was a married woman. Her marriage is ending and he already has her replacement lined up and won’t divorce me because he wants me around for “insurance” in case these little Twinkies don’t work out… UGH…
Magic,
Why in the world are you sticking around?
I hope you use protection and have been checked for STDs!!
Your still married to this guy? For crying out loud DIVORCE him!
He won’t divorce you? smh.
This happened to me. My ex ticks all those bullet points that you mentioned, Natalie, I’d wonder if you were doing a case study on him.
It hurts sometimes, but I’m glad I’m out of his emotionally-warped BS universe, because I’ve been working through my issues and I know ultimately I’ll be happier.
Oh, and I did No Contact with him, amazing how he tried to garner my sympathy for him! This is a ‘man’ who broke up with my the day after he moved 45 minutes away from me, telling me he preferred the company of someone else. Nothing else to say except good riddance!
My husband and I are separated, which means we’re still legally married, yet he got engaged this past April, so he’s married to one and engaged to another. Lovely, right? He flaunts this publicly, in front of family and friends. There are no divorce papers filed and he tried to see if we could get back together while he was seeing this other woman. He would stop by, plan outings, have many talks with me. I told him no more contact as long as he is seeing this woman and he refused to get rid of her because “she’s too important to me” so I said see ya. So he is cheating on me, his wife, and cheating on his girlfriend with his wife. Now he looks at my Twitter and sends emails or texts thinking I miss him and I don’t respond. He’s a real charmer! And a master overlapper!
Linda,
You need to file the papers; obviously he is not going to do it. Why have you not done it? I don’t get it. Sounds awful.
I don’t get it either?
On December 4th of 2010, I was at his house, a birthday lunch for me (belated) and sex. Four days later he was on a plane headed for the next target in another state.
He’d been love bombing her for two months.
Given that I was his OW, then his “girlfriend” between online dates and securing the new victim, is it a shock that cheating was imminent? I wonder what you say about assclowns that do this, Natalie. There was no conscience in this, nor during the entire relationship with me, nor marriage with his wife. I can’t imagine that he’d spontaneously have one now either.
Right before he married main victim three last February, he was trying to hook up with the target he went to Arizona for after that December 4th day last November. Six weeks before he flew off to Ark with new victim to ask her mama for her hand in marriage **gag**.
The target he was screwing around on me with…nice gal. I would have had no idea he was attempting to start an affair just before he married victim three, had she not emailed me out of the blue and sent me a text he sent her, asking her for a date, and he didn’t mention victim 3 at all.
Victim 3 is totally caught up in fantasy with ex. So sad. She has NO clue. None at all.
Overlapper much?
Oh gosh. Sounds like this guy has given you a lot of grief! These people are pathological, aren’t they? I read this really inspiring blog recently in which the poster said we should look at guys like this as like children in a way – like they can’t help what they’re doing…which isn’t to justify their behaviour, but just to realise that it has nothing to do with us! Hope you’ve moved past it onto better things.
he is really screwed up in the head. dump him quick.
Wow this is so true to life. I have a male acquaintance and he’s recently broken up with his gf. The thing is that before he was brave enough to do that, he would be looking for other options. He got really close to a female friend of mine (who has a boyfriend). They did not get physical but became close friends. Said female friend is quite naive and didn’t realise the path he was wanting to go down with her. He asked her out and she declined.
You might think that the type of people who do the ‘overlapping’ are probably people you feel pity for, because they so easily feel lonely. But honestly this guy I know is so arrogant and I think his dating behaviour is part of that. He actually told me that I’m a date-able prospect. Until I had swallowed this blog, I think I wouldn’t have noticed his bad points which obviously make him a bad bet. Thank goodness for Natalie. It’s not that I would date him when he’s in a relationship but I learnt some unsavoury parts of his character which I wouldn’t have done when I was trying to be this/putting every man on a pedestal.
This is hard. I’m a bit in tears writing this. My ex, who I fell deeply in love with, despite red flags and him not feeling the same, did this. He was buttering up an ex he wasn’t over who he talked constantly about and compared me to throughout our relationship. He backed me into a proverbial corner (because he was too much of a coward/getting too many of his needs met while I withered away, to actually end it) so I did what had to be done: I broke it off with him, and, yes, he did go to his ex, pestering her to take him back. She did. I’ve gone through the most torturous of seven months getting over him. Running into him and this woman, running into him. He’s moved on. He was never invested enough to be anything else anyway. Now that I am near over him, I am being faced with all the issues that were there before him and that lead me to him in the first place. Painful and terrifying stuff. I thought a man could get me over a childhood riddled with sexual abuse, neglect and repeated abandonment. Not. So. NO, the things that happened to me as a child were not my fault and as unfair as it is, they are MY RESPONSIBILITY to deal with as an adult. When in doubt about what to do with the flashbacks, hurt memories and pain, I cry hold myself and tell myself , “I’m sorry. I am so sorry.” That’s more than any unavailable man could ever consistently do for me.
We’re with you, Jennifer. I used to look to men for the same sense of safety and recovery and just felt so abandoned at the idea that I’d have to deal with the fallout of a hard childhood all on my own.
But no one else can do it but you, really, so it’s great for you that you’ve started the work.
Jennifer,
aww, it sounds like you have been through so much! I like that you can self-soothe like that. Perhaps more of us should follow suit. Hugs xo
Awh, thanks Learner. I realized I had a choice: I could deny/invalidate me while I hurt or I could be nice to me and at the very least (especially when I couldn’t give myself answers) give myself compassion in my times of hurt.
Wow, I initiated a break that sounds a lot like your situation and have had to come face to face the same realities of my past. I’ve decided to forgo dating for a year at least until I am happy being single. One of the last things he said to me when he revealed to me he had moved on was “This is just what i have to do right now, I have love for you, but I’m not In love with you, you have to let me come back to you.” The past 7 months have been extremely painful, but now I am finally beginning to feel responsibility and pride for a self that i have never known. I like her, I love her, she’s really awesome, I wouldnt let any dick fuck with her life. Still shakey at times, but the more and more time i spend with me the more I want to. Its still easy to slide into focusing on him and what he might have thought or how i failed him in someway. the goal is to not fail you, numero uno, the one you gotta live with. good luck. In between crying you get to decide what kind of life you want and work for it, no one can take that away
Oh and thank you everyone and Natalie for your great advice during the time I’ve been reading this blog.
Speaking of ‘overlapping’, I haven’t actually done it myself but I’m in a strange head space now. I’m in that space because every time I got out of a relationship I was looking for another one to feel the emotional void. I’ve finally fallen out of that pattern (thank you baggage reclaim). But I’m completely not used to it. I wonder sometimes if there’s something wrong with me because I’m not falling for any guy who shows me attention. It’s so out of character for me! It’s scary because I’ve been telling myself that maybe I can’t feel love any more. But I have taken so much advice from this blog so I must be doing something right.
Lucy!
Oh my! This is happening to me to. I used to search and search for another man to fill the void the ex left behind. I didn’t do that this time, held out despite the longing, processed the pain. And I am just not into near as many or the same kind of guys I used to be. Here’s what I think is going on: The people/men we’re used to being around don’t do this kind of work, so the people in our old and current situations don’t look as attractive and perhaps we’re in a social transition to being around emotionally unavailable people to available. Then society, through marketing and media makes it seem like the world is dripping with available partners. It’s not. Not that they aren’t there, their just not clustered in groups like we’re made to believe. And when we find that special someone who thinks we’re the bees knees too, he, just as we, will be reluctant to let us go and to eff it up, b/c he’ll know how special we are and such a great catch, because, no, not every seemingly attractive person out there does the kind of work we’re doing that will allow us to have happy, healthy relationships and be good/trustworthy/happy, healthy partners. Take care Lucy!
Thanks Jennifer. That’s exactly the truth. The men I’d be into before, I’m completely turned off by now. I was asked out a few times recently and I just knew in my heart they weren’t for me and I don’t regret saying no (before I would have been agonising over this decision wondering if it was the right one). I don’t feel as desperate as I used to be because I’m not flirting outrageously with every man in eyesight, and I’m not circling around mostly male friends. I’m rediscovering the benefits of having great female friends. Feels like some weight has been lifted off me. Love your positive thoughts – really makes me smile.
Lucy,
Actually, I think it’s a HEALTHY thing that you feel this way….
I understand just what you mean about jumping into another relationship right away to fill an emotional void, ugh! I did that and wound up with a psychopath. Yay me! Anyway, this feeling you have is really positive in that it’s your subconscious telling you to slow down and deal with your hurts from your past. It is a LOOOONG process and it is excrutiatingly painful, but if you stick with it, it WILL get better and the healthier you get, the more likely it will be that later on, you WILL meet someone who is healthier too.
It won’t be a repeat of patterns from your childhood. You’re getting the opportunity to heal that part of yourself. Awareness is a gift. Use it wisely now…
I will try. I wonder how long this process is but I won’t rush it. You know I feel a bit vulnerable now. I’ve lost some youthful innocence, that willingness to give a lot of myself to someone. I’m more guarded now but I don’t hold my head down or avoid others. I wonder how they see me.
I’m getting some interest now from the ‘nice’ white-knight (obviously) insecure guys which aren’t my cup of tea. My dad says it’s cause they think I’m a strong woman and that I’m very friendly/inoffensive to everyone. Thing is I don’t want to date that type again. It left me broken because he leached off me to feel better and only ended up making my self-esteem much worse. It was like looking after a child sometimes. Hm perhaps that’s a sign that more work is needed.
The more time I spend with that awareness, the more I realise about my own patterns. It is amazing. Thanks K! 🙂
Lucy, I´m experiencing the same! I feel such relief because now it´s like I have permission not to worry about who´ll be my next bf, and to just be.
There are so many things I want to do with my life now, and I´m feeling an enthousiasm I hadn´t known since I was a little girl and all this relationship-stress began.
It is quite unexpected because I used to feel incomplete every time I was single, and now I don´t care at all. I am also more aware of the problems of the marriages I see around me, in the past I only envied them for the simple reason that they were together.
It´s wonderful to feel like this, to finally be able to let go. I couldn´t have learned to do this without this site, am very very thankful.
Sounds great, Lilia! I know what you mean. I devote zero thinking time to what my next bf will be like, where I’ll meet him etc I don’t look at every single guy I meet as a potential bf instantly. I am so happy for you that you are feeling great. That’s wonderful. 🙂
I used to feel incomplete when I was single and that feeling would drag into any relationship I got into because I wasn’t really dealing with my feelings. I do not blame exes completely for those past relationship woes.
Lilia, woo hoo!!! Big kuddos to you. Yes, I am there too. I have things to accomplish and I’m not worried about who the next one will be, if there is a next one. I’m feeling good with single right now.
Yes, the trap-ease artist, that is what I call them and so it seems the men in my life, there’s only been two but they both exited this way. Both times it was after I said we need to take a step back and both times they decided that it was the best thing for them to instead take take a step out. Unbeknownst to me, months before while holding onto me, I guess to make sure it was a secure rope to attach themselves to. Then finally me suspecting and then realizing it to be so and cutting my end of the rope.
is it overlapping when you have a yo-yo relationship that ends for the ‘nth time and your ex makes out with the very women who tried to (well, he let them) invade our privacy throughout our 3 year relationship (yo yo, yes, but still).
Is it acceptable that this last time, he started something with somebody 14 days after our breakup, then coming back to me with all the ‘i miss you’s’ and then after finding out he (again) had sex with somebody else said to me that I couldn’t judge him because it was over, say bad things about it, because he *explained* his situation to her and she was sooo understanding I can hear his ‘one time in bandcap’ echoing ’till this day. Sad if women swirm around you because you let them feel like they can ‘save’ you and women don’t recognise this. I was like that too off course, but it’s so sad when you break the pattern and see others still blind for this stuff. This man so despirately needs to feel wanted, he would’ve sailed the seas with practically any ship available. A nice ship sure, but still just the first one in row.
This right here:
“Some people need to have their ego stroked elsewhere when they experience relationship problems. It gives them reassurance because getting attention and possibly the offer of another relationship from someone else ‘must’ mean that the problem isn’t theirs.”
And more to add here, maybe sometimes they know they have problems, but they’re wishfully thinking that with the right combination, *their* problems will vanish and yes: as if it were *our* problems and not his.
Maybe in some situations, it is about the bad compatibility, but again, that would be speaking about EA people, not these assclowns who dragged you through a relationship instead of walked with you.
I can safely say, that only if my ex has not dated anybody in the 4 months we are NC, that a) that would be a miracle and b) I would actualy honestly support him (in my mind, not in the flesh). But let’s jump to Z shall we, I saw him standing outside of *our* restaurant a couple of weeks ago (first time I saw him) and since it’s not the kind of place you go to with a pal, I can safely jump to Z and say: nope, hasn’t learned, will never learn. I thought to myself at that moment, ‘why do I have to see him right here?!’ but only seconds later, I had to laugh at God and the universe, because it wasn’t only trying to make me see the real him *again* but it was showing HIM exactly the same. *Our* restaurant you fool, that must ‘ve been some relaxt dinner. I doubt if he’d like to go to the place she and her recent ex went on their romantic dinners. (Always all about him, argh, the memories I get with even seeing a glimps of him make me sick to my stomach)
Starting over with somebody new with the sole purpose to forget, to heal, or to reassure yourself you’re ‘not that bad’ and ‘you deserve this attention’ and blah blah blah, is one big red waving flag for disaster.
I couldn’t dream of being with somebody only weeks after ending a -what I thought was a meaningful relationship. It’s both healing and respectful. To both yourself, the one you leave behind, and the new person. If everything ended in a emotional available way, only then you can be genuinly happy for one another. My two cents 🙂
I was the other woman 11 years ago and was dumped for a new other woman in September. Since then I’ve read up on and learned about NPD and believe my ex has it. Natalie, can you relate the overlapping to NPD or do non-Narcissists habitually overlap too?
Wildangel,
I know you didn’t ask me, so I hope this isn’t too intrusive.
I understand a lot about personality disorders. With all the stuff I have read and/or seen with survivors of the disordered, these men are in a class by themselves. In all the time I’ve been supporting survivors, not ONE TIME, not ONCE, has ANY disordered one been faithful. NOT ONCE. Not in their marriages, not in their relationships. So many of them lead double lives, either right from the get go, or shortly after securing another victim. They don’t know what monogamy MEANS. They are highly prone to boredom and they are PREDATORS, which makes them much different than an overlapper without the disorder. I think the habitual ones are more likely to be disordered than those who are not. I know I have overlapped when getting out of my marriage and getting involved with the psychopath. I know why now and I understand it. Have been alone for almost two years now. But someone with a disorder is NOT going to take this time, out of ANY relationship, if they aren’t already involved. Some women have absolutely insisted that he was faithful, only to find out when she’s out of the relationship, he wasn’t faithful at all.
I hope this helps.
I am going through this right now that horrible awful feeling of being replaced is hard to deal with. I do not know how to deal with it.
If had not told me that he didn’t think it would work out between him and the new girl and he is ambigious about her and unsure of his feelings for her maybe I could cope better.
He said his ideal was to keep seeing me and see her on the odd occasion, but he knew I wouldn’t go for that arrangement so he said he would be her friend but no sex. (she had already told him she would be happy with the arrangement of him seeing me and her) Then he changed his mind and didn’t want to see me but would keep seeing her while looking for someone else.
I know I was in a casual relationship with this guy but we had agreed to be sexually exclusive otherwise I wouldn’t have agreed to be with him. I always knew it wouldn’t be a long term thing, but I don’t think I derserved to be cheated on and thank you for saying it is cheating, Natalie.
He said he preferred me to her but I guess she is more in line with his morals agreeing for him to sleep around.
“Their new relationship may or may not work out and if it does, again it’s not about you but more that they’re still the same person but have found someone who their values and characteristics (even if they’re dodgy) click with (or the person will ignore issues).” He has found a like minded person.
It is all so raw and so so hard not to make it about me.
Tulipa,
Can I ask why you choose not to be in an exclusive relationship with someone?
I didn’t understand your question at first, Allison, but you are right I stupidly thought if we sexually exclusive then the whole thing was exclusive.
Still he said we were sexually exclusive so will still maintain he cheated on me and took the cowards way out and wasn’t adult enough to speak to me, it wasn’t long before this he was telling me how good things were, this was the start of me picking up things were wrong.
Your article is right on target again. My problem is my ex has decided to join my gym and bring along his new flings. I’m not sure for what reasons other than to antagonize me.
I don’t want to leave the gym that I’ve been going to for the past 15 years because its so nice.
Yeah. Don’t leave. Hope you can rise above it as best you can. Be strong!
Dennis,
yeah, same crap happened to me. I finally left the damn gym. Never regretted it. Last thing I needed was to run into her, sort of defeated the purpose of my health goals.
About a year later after I switched gyms, I almost ran smack dab into her on the street, I only recognized her at the last moment, then I had a good laugh about it. That day my life felt great, I could have cared less.
I was overlapped too. It wasn’t working so I bit the bullet and ended it. That conversation happened the day after my grandmother died. We had been together 8 months. For the two weeks after that, I got crikets. (That did hurt) I finally called to ask if we were going to talk about this and when we could exchange things. He was such an unbelievable jerk! A week after that I found out that he had lined up the new girlfriend a month before we broke up. Three weeks after our breakup, they were posting on facebook how much they were in love (eye roll)
I was so pissed. I didn’t want him. It was obvious that our relationship couldn’t go further. But it had been a decent one. So I thought. Everything on the up and up. Kids, family. A lot of fun and no drama. I just felt totally blindsided. And yep, went down the lane of “was any of this real? how the hell can you bed hop so fast?!” (And this one was a breeze compared to my beloved fuckstick who brought me to BR.)
It’s been just over 3 months since the breakup. I’m totally over this one, but I don’t want to see him. Don’t care what or who he’s doing. Think he’s still with her. And as I work with his mom (yay!), he and his new girlfriend will probably be attending our company Christmas party. So I told the party planners (this morning) I wouldn’t be attending. You’d think I’d exterminated Santa the way they’re acting! I’m soooooo over this immature twat. I just have zero desire to see him. Ever really. And I refuse to put myself in any situation I KNOW, damn well, I don’t want to be in.
“Being overlapped can you leave you feeling ‘replaced’, discarded, rejected.”
Yep, been there done that 🙂
“Overlappers don’t do facing feelings, thoughts, or even their conscience.”
Seriously, do they even have a conscience. Not that it really matters now but is it so fricking hard to say : I AM SORRY or I KNOW I HAVE HURT WILL YOU PLEASE FORGIVE ME
Part of the reason I think I cant forgive him for what he put me thru is because he never showed any remorse or asked for an ounce of forgiveness. It was like I was suppose to understand his instant chemistry with her , his need to try her on for size, and be his best buddy all awhile… NC is my best buddy thank you very much…. FLUSH !!!!! thanks Nat for having this blog, it has helped me tremendously.
Happy Thanksgiving to all 🙂
Thank you, thank you, thank you for this article Natalie!
This past Sunday on my way to a wonderful X-mas play with family, I caught sight of my ex with his piece on the side that he overlapped me with for almost a year ( she knew about us and went for it anyway). We were together for 14 years, engaged and it took not even 6 weeks for them to go public. I had come to the realization before I saw them together that I don’t want him anymore,but it hurt like hot stabbing pain in my chest all the same. I am working on mourning and grieving, recognizing what went wrong with the relationship. Unlike someone else who protested he “needed to find himself alone” I am alone because I need to fall in love me myself before I can even think about loving anyone else someday. I can see all the red flags clearly now, the future faking that I was fed up until the end and knowing that what he to offer isn’t acceptable to the woman I am now. I didn’t even allow myself more than a quick glance at her because I know comparing myself to her won’t fix what was clearly broken.
I know that the overlapping isn’t about me, its about him and I am better and deserve better than what I received. Working through all the memories, hurt and pain is making me a stronger person and I am blossoming into the woman I was meant to be because of it. I am taking accountability and forgiving myself for my part in why it didn’t work out. Nonetheless realizing it wasn’t all my fault ( well it was according to him) feels like a thousand pound weight was lifted off my shoulders. I will never receive forgiveness or closure from him so its important that I give it to myself instead. I will continue to maintain NC, build a new life for myself, set boundaries and map out my goals and life’s purpose because I deserve to put me first.
Like most gifts in life the breakup is a mixed blessing, but I know in the long run, I will heal, move on and better myself because I love and respect myself for the first time in my whole life. Knowing that by avoiding what happened is only going to prolong his ability to really move on from this (something I doubt he will ever be capable of doing) is my small victory if I am allowed any victories in this.
Kat, it’s like you were writing about me here:) I’m going through a similar thing, although my relationship “only” lasted five and a half years. He wanted to get out and didn’t have the guts — or didn’t know how to do it, so he overlapped/cheated on me with some girl … and that was his excuse to get out. After that it still dragged on for one and a half years, with me not being able to grasp what he had done and what he was doing. I wanted soooo badly to keep him in my life, and he took advantage of that. We turned into friends with benefits, with me being in utter agony the entire time. Kept saying he wasn’t ready to settle down yet, that he needed some time alone, that he wasn’t interested in women at all — and then, wham, started dating this new girl out of the blue that he met at some party! Of course he didn’t tell me — had to find out thru a friend. And that was when I can honestly say I hit the rock bottom. Went on antidepressants because I just couldn’t handle it anymore …
So, half a year later things are getting better … discovered BR and working on myself, and on letting go … Still, the rejection hurts, and seeing him happy in this new relationship … have to keep reminding myself it wasn’t about me and that I deserve so much better!!
Sorry for the rant:) Thanks guys for all your posts, and of course to Nat for all her wisdom. xxx
yeah, it often is about the rejection. not so much about the guy. i am totally over the ex EUM, but still dealing with the feelings of not being good enough.
before the last one, i was in a relationship for 2 years with a narc AC. i broke up with him on a monday, on wednesday he started seeing another woman, and on friday he flew off to her house (she lived in a different state) to spend the weekend with her. technically, it wasn’t overlapping… or not that i know of, but how can you emotionally be ready for a new relationship if the old one ended just days before? he was so heartbroken over it as well. unbelievable.
I knooooow! I just can’t believe how they can switch to another woman just like that!!! Urgh …
Wow. and here it is, almost 2 years to the day – “The Overlapper” is the reason I have been reading this blog, and healing finally.
This article was perfect for me. The AC that I broke up with this past June – the Boomerang boy and me, the Yo-Yo girl.
We worked together, and he left his fiancee for me. I should have known better, but I was so flattered by his fascination with me that I thought I was finally having a real relationship. WRONG.
I went through months of his tears over the ex, who he told me treated him like crap. Then my gut screamed at me to get out, he would break up, the cycles would roll, and he kept pursuing me. Working together made it hard to keep NC. As soon as I would feel like I was moving on, we would get put on a project together and it would start all over again. He was so good at what he did. He was far from physically charming but there was something about him that drew me strongly. He even convinced me that our non-relationship was in fact something I could not live without. and as soon as I put my heart completely into it, on our fifth and final try, I could feel him pull away.
The breakup would have been fine had I not discovered that he was on eHarmony during our on-again period and also discovered he was getting a little close with one of his camping buddies. I didn’t want to know anything about him, and was dedicated to staying strong despite having to sit only feet away from him.
It wasn’t until one day I unblocked him on instant messenger at work that he started flooding me with questions about the NC. Why aren’t you talking to me, I thought we could be friends? and then I let him know I knew about the eHarmony account and a possible “blonde” and he became instant mean guy because he was truly being rejected. He swore nothing happened, defending the online dating with an excuse, and swore he and the girl were just friends.
I only opened up these lines of communication because it was required at work, but he knew he was losing his hold on his possible Yo-Yo side piece and tried to break me down with his words.
The worst part was when I guessed, without knowing, that he was seeing the “blonde”. It was only a month after the official breakup and he started to tell me that, yes, they were now seeing each other now (there were pictures of them all over a social meeting site over the months we were dating and trying to make things work) and that I should be aware in case I should run into them at Target.
WHAT? THE. F***
Here I had done my due diligence and went complete NC, even despite the few feet of distance that barely separated us, and he drilled through in order to hurt me more by confirming he was overlapping during the last weeks of our relationship. When I began to think about some of the conversations we had towards the end, it was always “Ms. X and her boyfriend this and Ms X and her boyfriend that and she gave me advice about this” I started to review the tapes and realized he was brewing this romance before that fateful day we said goodbye in the rain, literally like a sad heartbreak movie.
I luckily found another job and left, but not after being verbally accosted by him daily at work before I reported him to management.
I found out through a mutual friend that he moved in with her just recently. Barely 3 months after he last came to my house and tried to have sex with me. I think that’s when I felt relieved, finally. He is now someone else’s issue.
I have been single since, and try not to think about him, knowing he was never right for me, but the overlap has killed my spirit. I don’t know why, since I should have listened that first week when he said, “Don’t fall for me”
Without BR, I don’t know if I would be where I am today. Thank you for this, and thank you for this post, on this Thanksgiving Eve, 2 years to the day that we first got together.
This is me through and through..My ex dumped me at work while telling me “You know i love you right, but i have met someone else last week,i still want to be friends and be there for you” blah blah fricken blah.I then went onto process the loss of the 2 year relationship while he went on and moved in with her within the month.Its been 7 months and i have constantly had the thoughts that you write about today going through my head.I have only got through the last 7 months with your help Nat..And articles like these just make you feel like you can cope a little better. I am going to a wedding on the weekend and he will be there with his new girlfriend.I am actually the wedding photographer so this will be a challenge but i will be taking your wise words along with me.Thank you.
louise, I am so sorry you experienced that! I can’t imagine how painful that feels and I can’t really offer much except lots of virtual hugs…you are so strong to go through this! you are strong enough to attend the wedding, that says a lot. best of luck to you and try to enjoy it as much as possible despite the circumstances, get him out of your headspace if you can!!!
courtney, thank you so much for you kind words. The wedding is over and i managed to get the job done.It was incredibly hard to watch the person you have spent the last 2 years with, with someone else.And overhearing him call her children his children.Yes that stung.I have shed my tears but my recovery and grieving will continue.
In my view, it’s disrespectful to your partner, to the relationship – and to yourself – to do this. (While sometimes understandable. But under certain circumstances, what isn’t understandable?)
Lawrence. There is a quote I love:
“Betrayal is the willful slaughter of hope”…
and when its done by someone you love it hurts even more …
Good article, but NOT totally strictly true!
I am a serial overlapper, and I’ve not taken it personally in any way as you have made some great points.
However, I feel that you have GENERALISED greatly, which is unfair.
To say “Overlappers don’t do facing feelings, thoughts, or even their conscience.”
I DO!!!
And I know why I did it, because of the things you say, I was looking for a way out, I dont find it easy to break up with someone etc etc.
But that doesnt mean that I didnt have a conscience or feel absolutely TERRIBLE, and I certainly was NOT grooming my next overlap as you imply!
Each and every time I did it it was UNCONSCIOUS. It wasnt intentional.
So I do hope that people will see this and not tar all overlappers with the same brush. OK maybe men are less caring than women, but then again, that is generalising, which you can never do.
Not all people are the same. Some do things intentionally, uncaring… but some dont. Some do it as self protection and not on purpose.
Sam,
why don’t you try and BECOME conscious, for it is very unfair to the next person you are involved with. One needs to process their feelings, wether they like it or not, because it’s nature.
Breaking up with somebody – and I do mean a relationship wich left you feeling like the rug was pulled from under your feet – is an emotional drain. To overlap this state of mind and feeling, with a person who deserves more than to step into a bag of hurt, is simply unfair. Not everything is about you. It’s also about respect to the new person in your life.
Sam even if you have feelings about it, overlapping is still a character flaw. It is also not good for you, yourself. Not overlapping relationships gives you breathing room and time to assess what happened in the last breakup. Because you do say that you ‘feel’ something, here’s what eventually will happen to you: grief compounds it does not go away if not dealt with properly. So one day, all that grief you’ve felt will pile up like a big mountain so large that it will topple over and you will be crushed underneath it and have to deal with it all at once instead of in small increments. Been there, done that, we are all built the same and noone gets away from it.
Sam
There’s a Gaelic proverb which translates as
“Two never kindled a fire, but it lit between them!”
Just saying 🙂
unconscious cheating? that’s a new one for me.
Sam,
The reason there is so much generalising is that it has happened to so many people. Sure not everyone is the same and results of someones actions are not the same, but you certainly have to reflect on your past and figure out what is going on inside of you to act like that. If you can move so freely from relationship to relationship perhaps your were never really fully committed to any of them. Meditate, take time, breathe, the answers are there you just dont want to face them.
Cheating is always deliberate if you admit it or not.
Sam
I’ve overlapped myself and I had some quite cast iron excuses including an ex who landed me in hospital a few times. Ultimately, though, we have to face up to our responsibilities for our actions, choices, and decisions before we can move onto a better future. Otherwise life becomes a miasma of making excuses for yourself, for other people, and accepting all kinds of crap from yourself and others. A chronic EUM that I dated brushed off his infidelities with “that’s what people do!”
And although there are (a few) exceptions, the kind of person who is willing to get involved with you when you’re already in a relationship probably has a shaky view of fidelity and responsibility. So you could get hurt yourself. if I had been in relationship when we met my boyfriend would not have been interested. Well-adjusted people do not unconsciously let sexual attraction/feelings/ fear/ indecision/ romance/ whatever lead them around by the nose.
Better to take a break between relationships than overlap. I understand that the six years I took was probably too long but I don’t regret it. I came to my relationship with a clean slate. I’m glad of that. The boyfriend doesn’t deserve a flaky, clueless, unaware dreamy girlfriend. It was two years since his last relationship, so he was in good shape too.
It doesn’t have to be years, but at last a few months. What’s the rush? Unless it’s to run from our feelings or to justify a bad decision or we simply can’t say no. No is powerful. We don’t have to do it. We don’t have to say yes to every cockamamie thing that comes our way because it’s easier than facing up to our responsibility for our own lives.
I think it’s very likely that even many “assclowns” and emotionally unavailable types are not inhuman monsters who feel no regret for the hurt they’ve caused. Some part of them may even long to change their hurtful behaviors.
I don’t see much of value to be gained by demonizing someone (Natalie and most of the posters here aren’t about that). What I do see value in is being honest and taking responsibility for one’s actions – and I think that includes making the effort to become aware of bad behaviors and then changing them.
Lawrence,
I have to disagree with you on this one. With all I’ve read on here so far, many of the women and men here have experience AC hell. A generalization would mean that all AC’s and EUM’s CAN change their behavior. Many of them here within the stories, show a clear lack of conscience, empathy, remorse or guilt. Those are signature characteristics of personality disorders. I’m guessing about half the AC’s here, if not more, suffer from it.
These people are incapable of change. You cannot force or give someone empathy and conscience when they don’t have one to begin with.
Natalie,
Can you please do an article on the personality disorders?
This comes up often on the site, and I am afraid that we seek this as an answer, other than acknowledge our own compliance in poor relationships – keeps the focus off us and our responsibility for putting up with crap.
If we continue to seek excuses, then we will never change our own behaviorial patterns.
Allison I believe she did write a post about this. Cant remember the name of it though.
I don’t believe anyone is incapable of change. There was a time in my life where I could have easily been labeled with many psychological disorders. Yet, here I am today a moderately happy and healthy person. I’m pretty sure anyone over the age of 5 is wounded. Some more than others. I’m not saying excuse poor behavior I am simply saying that people can act in unconscious ways or be conscious of their behavior and not know how to change it. Are there some that are conscious of their bad deeds and simply don’t want to change? Yes, surely there are.
To me this is like asking if evil exists in the world. Is there such a thing as being inherently evil and can that evil or ugliness ever be changed; is evil or ugliness beyond redemption…I for one do not believe that anything is inherently evil or good. There is a little bit of both in all things – and all people.
I agree with you Freya (yayyyyy! 😀 ) – I tend to think that as soon as anyone starts saying that someone else can’t change, they’re potentially laying the same trap for themselves. I don’t believe that anyone will change purely for someone else (specially not if they’ve been allowed to get away with rubbish behaviour to the same person beforehand), but I do believe that pretty much anyone can change if they make the decision to.
Psychology seems a woodly sort of science to me – I’m not sure that anyone can definitely predict or dissect another’s behaviour or motivations. But even if it can, I’m not a psychologist so I’m wary of labels.
I used to be a total assclown, but it wasn’t because I didn’t care about people, and I certainly wasn’t a narcissist or a psychopath. It was because at various points I’d been badly educated about relationships and what they’re for/depressed/picked up bad patterns and behaviours from other/was reading too many silly magazines. I know plenty of people who’ve been horrible in a relationship context but are lovely to non-partners – they just don’t handle the intimacy very well. And I’ve known people change, grow up or just change their minds about what they think.
In any case, I don’t think it matters. The point isn’t why THEY behave in a certain way – although I can see that it might help to be able to be able to label some of their behaviours psychopathic or whatever – the point is why WE choose to let it affect US and don’t run far away. We can’t change them, so any diagnosis beyond deciding that they aren’t very good for us seems a bit pointless to me.
Perhaps, my ex has a disorder, and maybe he doesn’t. It doesn’t matter, as it does not change the past and what I tolerated. That’s what is important!
Yep!
If they’re bothered, let them go and pay for the therapy to work themselves out.
I don’t know whether my exMM/AC has a PD or not, but he certainly has many traits consistent with being a narcissist and this knowledge has helped me understand what the hell it is that I’ve just lived through. I agree it does not change the past or what I tolerated, but it does matter. For me, gaining some understanding of where he was coming from is part of the process of getting over him and I don’t believe it has been pointless. The important thing is not to become stuck trying to work them out. I’ve moved on now and I’m working on why I tolerated all the bad stuff, etc and I agree, this is ultimately the most important part, but it sometimes takes some ‘diagnosing’ before we can get there.
I can see that, it probably had the same effect for me to label mine an EU AC. Maybe it’s effectively realising that a) there’s a brick wall that you aren’t ever going to get through and b) that you aren’t the only one?
The way that I see it now, though – and this is based on my fairly-functional-but-still-not-very-good relationships with fairly-functional-but-still-not-very-available men, is that there are two ways of viewing relationships. Mine so far have always been based on both of us effectively using the other person to boost our own sense of self-esteem and personal power, rather than on any sort of collaborative effort.
The big difference for me, now, isn’t that I won’t date a narcissist/psychopath but that I won’t build ANY relationship that isn’t based on commitment, care, respect and honesty. I don’t want to have to take another total pasting, but at the same time I don’t want to get into another half-arsed ‘I’ll put up with you if you make it absolutely 100% easy for me and allow me to forget that you’re there’ thing either.
Imo, somebody can be a psychopath or they can be a well-meaning but careless and selfish donkey. Or too depressed to care about anyone. All of them can jog on. I’d like to meet someone GOOD.
The other issue that I have is that the words ‘narcissist’ and ‘psychopath’, whilst neither are nice things to be, both have elements of masculinity and kewl attached to them. I’d prefer to call them – I dunno – Emotional Blanks and strip them of any sense of credibility.
Yoghurt, i have refrained from calling the MM a psychopath or a nacissist though i do find it interesting and useful when i read other peoples experiences and realise that he was far from unique, and that almost every aspect of his behaviour fell into a recognisable pattern.
But calling him a narcissist or a psychopath is too grandiose for my taste. I imagine saying that to him…he’d laugh. He was a human being, and he did have his good points and his vulnerabilities.
Calling him those names is almost like putting him on a pedestal. I’d rather think of him as a rather silly, vain man with a porn habit and little ability to empathise or understand others feelings.
Yoghurt & Mymble, yes, calling him a narcissist is too grandiose and the exMM would be quite happy with that title I’m sure. It would just confirm that he has all the power and control. I like the term ‘emotional blank’ though and if you don’t mind Yoghurt I’d like to borrow it! It is hard for me at the moment to view him as a human being with good points and vulnerabilities, but I suppose he has them. At this stage I haven’t been able to reconcile the good and bad. I’m afraid I will slip back into fantasy mode and allow him to hurt me again. I’m still trying to work it all out, and still not quite sure what’s just hit me, but one thing I do know whether he’s ‘a careless and selfish donkey’ (I like the graphic) or a psychopath he’s not in my life anymore.
Lilly
You are right, thinking about the “good bits” of them is missing the point. Like admiring the bodywork on a car with no engine. And actually it was that kind of thinking, refusing to see the whole, that got me in a mess.
I don’t mean that I think he isn’t a narcissist or whatever it’s just that as an explanation it doesn’t work – for me. I have to find some kind of narrative or name or explanation for it in order to be able to
put it behind me.
Lilly:
I think that the key points are that: he was awful to you (horrible, in fact, and fwiw he’s top of my Deserves An Anonymous Kick In The Groin list) and that you can’t change him. If thinking of him as a psychopath/narcissist helps you to get your head round those points then that’s great and it’s helpful.
I think that my problem with the terms comes when people start to see them as some sort of super-evolved evil genius. I love mymble’s “silly vain man with a porn habit” description of hers because it boils him down to what he really WAS – someone fundamentally pathetic with serious weaknesses that he refuses to address. That’s what they all are, no matter how many sophisticated and ‘adult’ tactics they might employ to allow them to carry this on. They’re weak and selfish little people, who are fundamentally too immature to consider the consequences of their behaviour for other people.
“I agree with you Freya (yayyyyy! 😀 ) ”
Tee hee hee!
Freya and Yoghurt, I agree with everything you said. And again, does it matter? I think what we are learning is personal responsibility is where it’s at. Own your part of what happened, learn from it and move on and hopefully have a better experience next time.
K- I think saying that they can’t change at all is a huge generalization. You don’t know that they aren’t feeling guilt or sadness or that they have learned something or not. True, there are a lot of bad experiences that women share here, some of the ACs have habitual tendencies sure, but none of us can claim they are not capable of evolving, learning, growing. It may take another experience outside of the ones we speak of here but all people are capable. It’s just whether they choose that better path to learn and improve. Some do, some don’t choose.
Lawrence,
No one gets extra credit for longing to change hurtful behaviour, failing repeatedly to do so, but insisting on continually acting out regardless. My heartstrings seem to remain completely untugged at such a plight. Maybe it’s because I refuse to play the trendy game of blaming the victim.
‘Being honest and taking responsibility for one’s actions’ including ‘making the effort to become aware of bad behaviors and then changing them’ is exactly what each of us expected once from someone we loved. We were horribly disappointed to see them laugh in our faces at the very notion.
Because, naturally, if you were perfect and powerful and attractive and better than everyone else and successful at using women for sex before casually tossing them away like garbage, would you change?
Lawrence the one guy I dated who is the biggest ac ever, did have remorse and he was sometimes sick of himself and wanted to change his behavior. But his remorse did not last long and he was back to his old tricks, the longer I stayed around the less he felt responsible for the azzholish things he did to me and other people. So its no wonder some of these people are thought to be inhuman monsters.
Sam,
You never considered the other person and how it may effect them. Selfish! Ignorance is not an excuse for cheating.
Man up!
Sam,
You have a ‘terrible’ conscience but the whole thing is unconscious?
Riddles.
Who cares if it’s generalized. Your reasons for overlapping are somehow more acceptable? Because you feel bad? (but you keep doing it) HHmmm. You want it both ways. Guilt doesn’t absolve you or make you appear as the ‘poor little misunderstood overlapper. Take responsibility for your own actions without excuses. Look a little deeper.
Hey Sam
I overlapped too, and I also cared about other people’s feelings, or at least genuinely thought that I did.
The thing that made me realise – way back in the way back then – was overlapping someone and having the ex sleep with the girl that he’d been ‘friends’ with the night after we’d broken up. That kicked me in the teeth – I didn’t like it. And it was then that I realised that there was a disconnect between my behaviour and my expectations.
Both of us then went on to have very nasty unhealthy relationships with the newbies – I heard on the grapevine that he broke up with his after a year but I wasted most of my twenties on mine, partly because I felt as though I had to justify my previous behaviours.
I think that there are four good reasons for maybe examining your behaviour.
1) it just isn’t very kind and it hurts people (I had some odd ideas about relationships at the time and thought that it was just the way that they worked – it isn’t).
2) While you’re behaving like that, you’ll attract people who share your values and are likely to end up getting hurt yourself.
3) Being unable to countenance being on your own and handling a breakup by yourself puts you in a very vulnerable and potentially miserable position.
4) Feeling terrible and guilty over your behaviour – especially if you go on to repeat it over and over, will damange your self-esteem. You aren’t going to respect yourself until you behave like someone you respect.
If any dude is worth being with he’ll wait until you’ve got your head straight after your last break-up before getting together with you.
“3) Being unable to countenance being on your own and handling a breakup by yourself puts you in a very vulnerable and potentially miserable position.”
I’ve been thinking a bit more about this one and I’m going to go further. There’s only one word that I can think of to describe this attitude – and I mean it in the traditional sense and not as an insult – but I’m afraid it’s ‘pathetic’.
Being so unprepared to handle the uncomfortable aspects of the end of a relationship that you prefer to push ALL of the discomfort and pain onto the other person is weak. And imo it’s a fair indicator that you shouldn’t be in ANY relationship, on the grounds that you wouldn’t want to be with someone who was didn’t have the strength to avoid hurting you.
(should add that I’ve had this attitude in the past so I’m not just having a go! But can you effectively see that you’re effectively giving the other person a double dose of discomfort and rejection to avoid the possibility of having to feel ANY yourself?)
…and ALL relationships carry the risk of discomfort and rejection, which is why they require strength and courage.
If you don’t have that and aren’t prepared to take that risk, then don’t get into any relationship in the first place.
Oh dear, I’ve made a total bodge of that and come across sounding really evil – I miss the edit button!
At the risk of boring everyone to death, I’ll try again.
Whenever you get into a relationship, you run the risk that it’ll end, you’ll feel a sense of failure, the pain of the end of your intimacy with someone and the discomfort of having to readjust to being on your own again. ALL relationships carry this risk for BOTH parties.
If you overlap, you can avoid those feelings… BUT you do so at the expense of the other person, who not only has to deal with them, but also with the sense of rejection and that they’re somehow worth less than the next person.
If you don’t care enough about the person you’re with to take the emotional hit at the end of the relationship by being on your own for a while and giving you BOTH some time to process and heal, then you don’t care enough about them to be with them in the first place.
Getting into a relationship but being unprepared to take the possible consequences of it ending IS (sorry!) cowardly and immature. Like I say, it was also me until about two years ago, so it’s not just you that I’m tarring with that brush! But that’s how it breaks down to me.
Btw, feeling bad about something but continuing to behave in the same way IS refusing to face your feelings or your conscience. If you actually acknowledged them, you’d used them to inform your future actions.
That’s my billion-pence-worth, anyway, well done if you made it to the end!
Yogurt,
All great points!
Yoghurt,Great Post and I totally agree with all you said. Especially: cowardly and immature.. My AC was 56yrs old. Really, if you are thinking of upgrading or trading in for a new model it would be so much kinder,less painful, and the right thing to do to let that person you’ve been with for umpteen years know. Being blindsided is so cruel & disrespectful. Then they want to be there for you. Like u want to lick my wounds you inflicted. Go away, far, far away…
When I finally got there, like…
Thanks both 🙂
Kit-Kat – the more I think about this, the more I think it’s just… wimpy. *I* was wimpy. Like, ‘it’s okay for everyone else in the world to go through difficult situations but I’m so SENSITIVE and SPECIAL that my feelings are MUCH more important than anyone else’s…’
So glad I’ve womaned up!
Fantastic Yoghurt. And I love your messages!
For me, in a nutshell: Getting into a relationship is an adult thing to do. It’s an undertaking that should not be taken lightly. Breaking up requires the same care and emotional maturity. You have to be prepared for any outcome and handle people with care.
I like to think of emotional maturity as an EQ. Some people have high EQs, some low.
Sam, you have certainly received lots of feedback. LOL. I think you kind of walked into this one, but for me, this sums it up: “Be of love (a little) more careful than of anything.” ee cummings.
Sam, you don´t find it easy to break up with someone but it is somehow easier for you to overlap?
To replace the girl you´re with with someone else (making her feel far worse than if you´d just told her it didn´t work out)?
That doesn´t make any sense.
As for not doing things intentionally, yeah I can understand when my son says that after accidentally hitting the cuckoo clock with a tennis ball, but cheating?
And feeling guilty is no excuse. As my mom always says, feeling guilty is the price you pay for doing whatever it is you want to do.
Sam,
“And I know why I did it, because of the things you say, I was looking for a way out, I dont find it easy to break up with someone etc etc.”
“Each and every time I did it it was UNCONSCIOUS. It wasnt intentional.”
Those two statements contridict each other.
You don’t find it easy to break of relationships so you go out and find a new relationship before ending the old one and yet you don’t do this intentionally what these ladies just drop out of the sky as you walk around in your unconscious state?
I think you should read all the posts and read and see how the action of overlapping leaves people feeling.
To me it is the coward’s way out of a relationship if things aren’t working out with a person just say so.
Tulipa,
you’ll find, like I experienced, that with my ex, who didn’t technicaly overlapped, if we hàve to count minutes that is, that it indeed was always ‘the ladies dropping out of the sky’. ‘he couldn’t help it’ he didn’t flirt, he was only being ‘friendly’..and so on.
Like he was some sort of magnet for the other sexe. Uhu. Sure. He didn’t send out any signals what so ever. It’s us, hormonal women who latch out to any ‘friendly’ man who comes close. Sigh. Sorry if I’m being cynical, but having to process this kind of bs for 3 years made me very wary of this kind of (possible) thinking.
vhs,
In my reply to Sam I was being sarcastic I don’t believe people just drop out of the sky he said he didn’t know how to end relationships so went about lining up another person but it was an unconscious thing I don’t believe him.
I’m sorry you had to put up with such bs it is awful and difficult to process, hopefully one day they will get a huge dose of karma biting them in the backside. Hugs
oops unconscious
Tulipa,
of course dear, I know you ment it sarcastic, so did I! My point is, do they, or my ex or other men think their ‘explanation’ actualy comes of as ‘believable’ to another sane person? I mean, the only reason a romantic partner wants to give them credit is because they love them and don’t want to lose them. I really believe in our hearts, we KNOW this kind of explanation, read, excuse, is very very poor.
It’s like they then judge us as dumb or something. That’s how I felt every time he would excuse himself with those kind of remarks , Shaggy song’s style: ‘wasn’t me’.
I felt insulted like: ‘do you really think I’m thàt dumb’. ‘Do you really think I was born the day I met you?’
Well Sam, you sure stirred things up. I understand what you are saying about your behavior being a form of self protection. I swear I hear a note of remorse or regret – or is it shame – over your own actions. Because I hate to see someone beat themselves up, I wonder if there isn’t a better way to keep yourself safe and still preserve everyone’s dignity and respect? Maybe there isn’t a better way, but maybe, just maybe there is.
The most important thing is to always do what you think is right – even if no one else agrees with you.
>Hug<
PS I don't think men are less caring than women.
Freya,
he did stir things up, because his comment was exactly the thing Nathalie is talking about. An AC is not 1 kind of man, he is many, and Sam’s response is one of those mindgobbling twisting things – kind of comment. The kind of comment I for one would have gotten daily from my ex and left me soo confused about him, us and my own sanity, before I decided I couldn’t live with any more of those excuses! I do understand where he is coming from from HIS point of view, but it’s a selfish point of view, and this is a place where many of us ladies feel like we can clearly state that. I do not feel sorry for somebody who needs to be with another person, or needs to be romantically involved with – really, let’s be honest with this overlapping stuff- anybody really, who comes along. It is shortsighted and hurftful and disrespectful to everybody involved. No matter how great the other woman, no matter how much fun he thinks he has. It’s a bubble. (not talking about genuinly founding L.O.V.E. here, but the kind of ‘fun’ they find to make themsélves feel better)
‘even if no one else agrees with you’ ? We don’t have to agree, no, but I wonder, how many tears his ex’s have shed over his behaviour.
How much they agreed with his behaviour. And ultimately for example ended up here, desperate for answers.
And these are the answers his comment results in.
I hope Sam listens carefully.
For I do believe in possible change, as long as a certain behaviour is consistantly néver excused by himself OR by others.
Here’s why I feel sympathy for Sam: All of the women who have come clean about overlapping have been met with support. Comments like I love your points, and that makes sense, and I agree and we’re here to support you sweety. This guy comes clean about his behavior and gets told he’s selfish and inhuman and better change his ways or suffer the consequences of women hating him. It’s no wonder he’s making comments like men are less caring than women. It pretty much what he’s being told BY WOMEN. From what I’ve seen here its frankly not true. I see him being ruthlessly torn apart. He deserves to be understood and supported in a gentle manner just like everyone else here. This guy isn’t the guy that hurt you. He’s the one trying to tell you why a man might do something like this: because he too is a vulnerable human being, because men have all the same insecurities as women. Frankly, I don’t think this guy deserves this. It’s too bad he doesn’t realize that or he might be here standing up for himself.
Freya,
i do hear you. I even agree with you. I don’t think somebody is a monster for behaving in such a manner. But I disagree with you that we’re picking on him and not on others. If women here have stated that they overlapped themselves and others have responded supportive, it’s because they also speak of knowing now what it is about and that it’s wrong.
Sam did not. On the contrary, he was excusing himself big time.
And he is welcome to help ending the image many of us got from his comment. This is a place where you can safely express yourself ànd safely defend yourself, nobody here knows where each of us lives.
I do not feel the urge to be a Florence Nightingale to this man.
freya
If it excuses me from the charge of sexism any, I actually (*blushes) thought that Sam was Samantha and a girl when I wrote my responses :\ I think there’s a giveaway somewhere in the screed…
I don’t think that the difference is a man/woman divide, though, I think that it’s the difference between people who accept that there’s a problem with the behaviour and people who don’t.
The bother is often that the justification for these sorts of things (like: I think it’s okay because if I don’t do it I don’t feel very good) are often the same justifications that got us all stuck in the first place. And when you’re reading the same things that were going through your head just before you made a massive mess of your life, or the same things that an AC said to you just before they turned your heart inside out, then chances are that you’re going to react.
For me personally, I was awful in relationships but I always told myself that I was doing the ‘nicest, kindest’ thing – and I had to seriously debunk THAT myth before I could change. Consequently, pointing out how ‘nice’ behaviour is, actually, not-at-all nice is my area of expertise. :/ Sad but true.
If you look elsewhere on the comments, there’s some fairly heated exchanges about overlapping abusive relationships etc – and those are between women. I don’t think that Sam deserves castigation because (if?) he’s a man, but then again I don’t believe that he should be shielded from our interpretations of his thoughts/actions either.
(awwww… and we were agreeing earlier! Never mind, eh – next time 🙂 )
I didn’t assume man or woman – in fact – in sofar as I thought about it at all I thought woman so was surprised when some others thought man.
I didn’t know if Sam was a man or woman, it doesn’t matter. It’s not a male/female thing. I’ve been handed some honesty on this site over the last two years that was hard to hear, and sometimes I resisted it, but collectively, in the end it was always spot on. It meant I had to start taking responsibility for my own stuff. Sometimes sympathy for the wrong thing is really more like enabling. Feeding someone’s denial doesn’t help them. Sam seeks to be exempt because he/she feels bad and sees it as self protection? That won’t fly here. I think Sam may have been looking for some truth here, not sympathy. That encourages me that deep down they want to change. Change happens here, I see it everyday, but it doesn’t happen by letting bad behavior go unchecked. I think it’s dramatic to say we are being ruthless and tearing him/her apart.
Sam,
I’m not sure I understand how you can have a conscience about ‘overlapping’ when you claim to have been unconscious of it. All I know is that people who are unconsciously or ‘unintentionally’ thoughtless and inconsiderate end up hurting other people precisely because they are thoughtless and inconsiderate. However, I don’t claim never to have been either (or both) of those things.
Sam grow up please as I believe that what goes around comes around. As an adult you have responsibilities towards yourself and anyone you are in a relationship with. Cheating/overlapping whatever it is, this is for cowards.
Overlapping 101 also known as cheating! My second husband met a woman on the internet and while pursuing a relationship with her kept me in the dark that there was even a problem in our relationship. I had no clue until i started to feel the disconnection from him and thought i should investigate what was going on. He denied everything until one day, viola! I guess she got tired of him being married and she deceided to have her friend call me to let me know about their secret life. Needless to say I kicked him out, got a divorce, only to have him boomerang back when things were not so great for him. He knew what he had with me, but yet thought the grass was greener so he deceided to graze. I am sure these patterns repeat themselves, so I have no doubt that she too will fall victim someday if she ever gets her head out of her ass. They have a child together now, she just recently let him move back in with her for the third time. He tells me they are trying for the kids sake. I say good luck to all who have been through something like this. Its not easy, but some people cannot bear to be alone. I believe think that overlapping i.e. cheating is a personality trait. I am happy to be alone and at peace with who I am and I thank him for teaching many lessons about what love isnt about.
This is really hitting home for me right now. The ex-AC and I had a very sudden, unexpected breakup (ie. he went from price to cockroach and then decided to completely disappear and avoid owning up to anything), but I did have some very strong suspicions he was cheating on me towards the end. Of course, when I confronted him, he flat out denied it. Well, he was cheating on me- my suspicions were confirmed by a reliable source. The thing that has me reeling is that he is back with his ex. This is something that really shocked me as when we first got together, he told me his ex was crazy and immature and dismissed their relationship as a “fling” and nothing more. Safe to say, I never saw this girl as a threat.
So, now I’m left wondering what the hell is up with his decision making? Was our relationship ending anyways and she just happened to be there? Or did he really choose her over me? Either way, I was definitely overlapped and it sucks. Piecing together our last week as a couple it becomes so clear he was seeing her then and doing his best to hide it from me. Given that we were long distance, the last visit really revealed a lot, so I’m left wondering how long was all this going on without my knowledge? It’s totally true what Natalie says. You are left wondering what was real and what was fake.
June. That is such a common story. I hear it a lot. I’m so sorry that happened to you. How awful. I’ve never been with someone who is already ‘taken’ but some of my mid circle range g/friends have. Two, more than once. One feels badly about it & is trying not to repeat it. The other… doesn’t seem to care too much & justifies it (i.e he’s not actually married etc. strange)
I have to say it makes me uncomfortable about getting too close to either of them. Even the one trying to change her behaviour, a journey I offered her a great deal of support with, because she again got involved with a MM despite her efforts. I always wonder, are these women people who would do such a thing to me? (And don’t get me wrong, they are otherwise, good people. Just a little damaged or manipulative or low esteemish in that area I think).
Again, I’m sorry for the loss of yr partner & so called ‘friend’, but glad that by showing their true colors they are no longer in your life! Ugh! T x
Teachable, I have to see the woman every day at work! I’ve had to develop blinkers and thick skin. The way it was told to me was a classic. He came through saying he’d had a text from her saying she had told her husband she is leaving him. I was stunned – my best friend and this was the first I’d heard of it! Then he says, yes, she has met somebody else. I was just thinking “how on earth did she…..” When the love of my life says “yes, and its me”. Nice. Then five weeks later they went together to a sailing event with my works social club – and shared a boat with some of “our” friends – who were just mortified by the whole horrible situation. These people have a sense of their entitlement to behave as they please, without even paying lip service to common decency and good manners. I’m still on my own two and a half years later. But my life is fab. When I get room in my schedule, I might be bothered with another man – but then again…..
Shame you can’t give ex husband yr namesake majicpotion & MAKE him sign those papers… Sorry I’m unlikely to know the law in yr area, but I’m guessing pretty much everywhere requires signatues of both parties to finalise a divorce.
No doubt you’ve sought legal advice…
You may need to look at using other things he wants from you as leverage. Again the legal advice will help. I strongly doubt he will be first ever hostile ex hubby refusing to sign divorce papers as a way of seeking revenge…
Hang in there. He was yuk. Glad yr shot of him!
Beautifully put & well spotted Lucy! Yr obvious growth is jumping right off the screen! I’m rootin for ya! T x
Thanks teachable! Rooting for you, too! 🙂
Yes, yes, yes. I lived this. It is precisely what I lived. “You just want a little respect. You want what you had to mean something but the fact that they’ve moved on doesn’t mean that your relationship is and was meaningless; they just don’t want to face anything and they want a fresh start as soon as possible. It doesn’t mean that the person is better than you. It may mean that they’re ‘there’. Your ex will be processing (probably avoiding it) in a relationship whereas you’ll be going it alone.” He gets to go it with his wife. I get to go it alone. Smack me again upside the head again for getting involved with a MM. There is simply no way in hell to win with a MM. Shit. Two years later and it is the same answer…just SHIT. I still have these moments of anger. Thank you Natalie for providing a safe place for my two years worth of anger. Okay…it’s going to be okay. But I still want to smack his stupid head.
Breathe Runner. His overlapp is stupid. His overlapp is called cheating!
Runnergirl, I picked up on the same paragraph. “You just want a little respect. You want what you had to mean something…..”
Those words hit home big time. The exMM sent me money when I lost my child with a note saying “you need a holiday”. I’m very ashamed to say that I kept it. I couldn’t however, bring myself to spend any of it. Today, I donated every single dollar to two organisations helping woman who have lost their babies. I sent him the receipts. I am far from wealthy,I had to leave my job because of stress and could have used the money, but I now feel as if I have respected myself.
I also want the relationship to have meant something and it did TO ME. That’s what I’m left with and it will have to be enough. I’m also going it alone and smack me upside the head again for getting involved with a MM. ‘Shit’ sums it up perfectly! I also still want to smack his stupid head and who knows maybe I have.
It is going to be okay for us Runner, it really is. Hugs to you,xxx.
That´s great that you donated his money, Lilly! And sent him the receipts, wow!
I hope guilt is eating him up now, at least at some inner obscure neurotic level.
I can’t recall a time where I have ever done this type of thing. Once I fell in like with someone when I had a bf. I decided to break up with the bf and not date the new crush. I felt it was disrespectful to do so.
I have had it done to me a couple of times. One guy was dating his neighbor while he was dating me and I was so blind I had no idea. I did wonder why he wasn’t coming over as often. One day he thanked me for being such a good friend to him and that was it. I never saw him again. It was his friend that told me after the fact about the other woman. I was like 26 so I chalk that one up to youth and inexperience.
The second time I can’t blame it on inexperience. It was obvious the guy was an a-hole and I didn’t want to believe it. We had been broken up for less than a week and he was staying every night at some woman’s house. He swears he wasn’t seeing her before we broke up and that they had met “very near the time we separated.” Uh ya, cuz I believe that you meet someone on Monday and start staying every night at their house by Tuesday.
I never in my life felt so worthless. It was like everything we had together was meaningless. I felt like a dirty napkin he tossed in the garbage after a satisfying meal. It took me a long time to get over that crap.
I agree with Lawrence, it’s disrespectful to your partner and to the relationship – most of the time. I do have one example where I was glad it happened.
My bf and best friend were actually dating behind my back. I knew it was happening and kept telling them to just come clean and tell me the truth and I would not be angry. They never did. BUT, two weeks after he broke up with me they moved in together. She got pregnant shortly after and they were married. Why am I glad this happened? Because they guy was a total shovanist pig. She saved me. Besides, her karma for going behind my back is to have to deal with him for nearly the rest of her life – and trust me, he makes her life a living hell.
OMG, thank god theres someone out there who gets this! i thought i was mad. my ex is a total one of these, he did not like me telling him how it was. avoiding the issues and not confronting them .
thats because cheaters live in total denial,they dont want to have to admit they are full of shit and no good. then they would have to face their own bs
Cheaters are passive aggressive- they let you think that they’re in a relationsip with you, nodding their head, agreeing, and making all the right noises, and then they sneakily go ahead and do exactly what they want to do….
Omg, I’m laughing now-this article reminds me of one of my ex’es, who would jump from relationship to relationship. When I met him, I had very little experience in relationships, so I missed the red flag, when he asked me to be his gf, though he met me in several weeks after the 4 year relationship with nother woman has ended! Initially all was OK,but after some time I’ve noticed that its only his ex’es that were always bad in the relationships, according to him, for Gods sake, just not him. As he would say “he would always pick the wrong girls”, though I’ve met the girl he had that 4 y relationship with in person, and she is nice and smart, nothing to associate with “wrong”. I think what was “wrong” with the girls he dated is that all of them, including me, didn’t rush into marriage, we wanted to take it slow (I was 25, just after my masters degree and wanted some time just for living a fun life, not jump into all that serious stuff like marriage, kids, a house and etc. right after I’ve ended paying the loan for my studies). Eventually I became “wrong” too (you know, when you feel like you do everything to make your man happy, still you hear the criticism all the time?) and he broke up with me. And in two weeks or so he added a picture to his FB profile, where he stood with 2 girls. One of them became pregnant with his baby in 3 or 4 months and now she is his wife.She worked at a winery near his home, so I’m pretty sure he was doing the overlap at the end of our relationship, cause he would somehow often go out with his friends for wine, as he said. Of course, I was terribly hurt to realise he had an eye for another girl while he was still with me, and I felt bad months and months after that, and he was enjoying his new life. But then this thought came to my mind – if that girl didn’t know he is with another woman when he started hitting on her, she has been lied to just as same, as me, so I should pitty that she is with such a man, who is reluctant to see his own flaws (he was very difficult in general, I can see that now). And if she knew he has another woman , but still was OK with that, well, they both deserve each other!
I have a friend who is an over-lapper. She went back to a terrible relationship because she couldn’t be alone. She told me she was afraid of being alone one night as she was having a break down.
But then she met someone else and was finally able to leave the bad relationship. Then that guy turned out to be abusive, but she couldn’t be alone, so talked him into going to therapy and she would go with him and make it work. While he was out of town for work, thinking he was going to come home and go to therapy with her, she met a new guy who became her instant boyfriend pretty much after the first date (never worked for me to move that fast, but for her– instant committed relationship that she could not stop gushing over… forgot all about the guy out of town and decided to ignore him and let him figure out what was going on on his own as if she didn’t owe him an explanation or proper break up).
The abusive guy gets home with no clue that she had moved on to someone else, and he had a hard time understanding that it was over and why she had ignored his emails and calls when he was out of town (she never was truthful with him, just tried to blow it off). Can’t blame him– she just started ignoring his emails when he was out of town and never officially told him she had met someone and was all of a sudden not that in love with him ad going to go to therapy with him to make it work. He made it difficult an kept trying to get answers from her, but she managed to convince the new guy that the old guy was just a crazy ex who kept coming back trying to win her over again. Lucky for her, the ex had quickly met someone else (maybe not-so-lucky for that someone else) as well and dropped her, although with hard feelings.
New guy who was her “great love of her life” (with problems that she could fix and go to therapy for, as she put it) went out of town for work and she had an affair with a guy who was in an on-and-off-again relationship with another woman. I didn’t talk to her much during this time because i was tired of her drama. but somehow they broke up right in time for her boyfriend to come home. She had a brief break up with the boyfriend, but none of the guys she jumped into clicked and she couldn’t be alone, so even though I heard all about how much she hated the ex, she got back together with him and then all I heard was how much she loved him as if all the bad things she told me just vanished over night. Now she is getting married to that boyfriend. I guess she finally found someone she could “fix” and never have to be alone with. They seem super happy, so good for them. I am so tempted to say to her, “so nice that you are getting married.. remember when you hated him?” haha.
Good grief, I’m exhausted just reading that.
All these comments hit too close to home about my previous relationships. I really dont feel like rehashing the past so I will just leave this alone. All I can say is, I need another bad relationship and some more emotional abuse like I need a hole in my head. I think I will pass.
I’m struck by the amount of pain I’m hearing in these posts. It appears that of all the kinds of breakup pain that are out there, this must be one of the worst. A hard article for me to read too. I’m deeply sad at the moment for all of us.
I think once you have come to terms with the fact that it’s them who needs the comfort blanket of an overlapping relationship as they are not strong enough to cope with the break up emotions and it’s not got anything to to do with you or your relationship, then you can let go easier… I was the over lapping relationship victim to then be a victem of him overlapping our relationship with someone else! Instead of being angry about it, I felt sorry for the new woman as I knew what her relationship will be like… Constantly comparing to the ex etc. He would pass his love from one woman to the next… And according to his friends, has done the same thing for 15 years to about 8 different girls… He has never been alone… He will never know how it feels to go through a real break up… But I’d rather live and learn from my mistakes rather than stick a plaster band aid on it… It did make me lose hope in men… And had been single for 2 years…but now, At 26, now travelling the world on a yacht, not paying taxes and meeting so many amazing people, have met an amazing man who adores me…the new ‘overlapping’ relationship my ex has now has a baby on the way and he messaged me to tell me he’s not happy and envies my new life… I’m not smirking… I promise! …still up to his old tricks, messaging an ex… Pfft… If you are reading this and have a man doing the same, messaging an ex or someone who has overlapped your relationship, be strong… And move on!! X
Hannah… You seem wise beyond your years. I probally have kids your age.. Good for you, I wish these sites were around when I was younger..
Enjoy your freedoms & the new BF..
Cyber hug 🙂
Must admit I haven’t ever over lapped either. I think because I got into therapy so young I knew I needed time between relationships to clear my head. My problem was I can quite comfortably let that extend to a tad too much time! LOL All good though. Much rather be taking my time for all the right reasons than go into a relationship wanting someone else to meet unmet needs I really need to meet for myself. It means that when I’m truely ready I’ll be truely empowered. Why? I don’t actually need a romantic relationship to be happy, fullfilled, financially secure, have a sense of meaning in my life etc. I want one because it will enhance all of those things which I will already have within myself. That way I always know too, drop yr behaviour buddy & I WALK. Why? I don’t ‘need’ you & am not trapped. Rather, I’m there co-piloting because I want to be (& I expect the same in reverse)…
PS Just call me the tortoise of BR! SLOWLY inching my way along at a snails pace! I feel like it’s taken me a lifetime (society’s message ringing in my ear, yr 43 teach, c’mon, better hurry up) but I truely feel my approach is right for me. I will know when I’m ready. And I’m guessing it’s still approx 12 mths away… (for health reasons)
I met my first love again after 20 years. He told me that he´d be divorced for some time. Because we lived on different continents to that time, we started mailing and did skype for month! When I came finally back to Europe and we met, it felt like a dream come true! I was so in love- and so he seemed to be, too. As before he asked me to give up my home/life and come to live with him. I was so much in love, but although unsure, because everything went so fast (fast forwarding and future faking as I know now!). We discussed the situation online and he reassured me that things would work out, if I`d leave my country to be with him. To make it short: On a friday he begged me to come- the next monday I told him I decided to come and live with him… Hours later he texted me back: “Forgive me, this weekend I met an other woman, who wants to spend my live with me here in …! I was shocked. I coudn`t believe it. But it was true! I found her on facebook and he quickly moved in with her. Three weeks after our reunion! I assume he did overlapping/ searching while he bulls… me! Some time later I learned, that he had not been divored, that he was still married! Actually he lived a normal family- life with his wife, while he charmed me- only beeing separeted from her and his kids during the week, because of his work. His wife texted me on facebook, that their marriage split up the day after he met me and she found out! And three weeks after this/ my first meeting with him after 20 years) there was already a completely other woman in his life….
marissa…. oh man… did you ever dodge a bullet there.
See, this is why I hold ACs accountable for causing so much suffering. This guy begged you to give up your life and move to another country… all to stroke his massive ego. That’s so irresponsible and selfish, there really is no excusing the ACs. They prey on vulnerable people, just like any con artist.
Marissa,
What an asshole!!!
How much time was there between the reunion and his asking you to move to Europe?
3 weeks!
When we made first contact, I lived in the US for a year. During this year we grew close again, we made Skype every day and he told me that he was only waiting for me to come back to Europe and that he wanted a relationship with me. When we finally met, I was sure of our love, but insecure concerning work and language, because I´m German and he´s French. But I decided to give us a chance… and that´s when I learned that 1. during this 3 weeks of my doubting he found someone new nearby (He must have been looking!) 2.He never waited for me- alone and divorced ( He was married all the time and his wife had no clue)!
Nevertheless I didn´t take the easy way out. I couldn´t believe and understand what happened…and I couldn`t really see the person he was. That´s when I started to make a complete fool out of me and feeling even more shame…
Since then I read a lot of books on love addiction but I found real relief first in the books of Natalie Lue and this side! Thank you all for sharing your stories, time and advice!!! It`s really a great help to discover that you are not alone with this kind of story in the world!
My Narc husband left me on my Birthday have secured a relationship before he left me.
I caught him with the other woman the other week and he said to me he wasn’nt married to me??
Left me on several other occasions for other women, only to come back crawling again.
He is a seriel overlapper and I feel sory for this woman because eventually she will find out what he is like.
This has been the most abusive relationship I have ever had and after 6 months I am just begining to heal. No more drama or lying b/s fro a man who doesn’t respect anybody, just he’s own selfish needs. My advise to anyone who has experience this is get-out and stay-out.
“My advise to anyone who has experience this is get-out and stay-out.”
Excellent advice.
When I was very young 19, 20 I was an overlapper. Since then I’ve been overlapped by a husband and bf’s. I think that I have discovered one of the ‘clues’ to an overlapper. Fast forwarding and possibly future faking. All my overlappers had ff’d me, I then went on to notice that they ff’d the next girl too sometimes while they were still with me. While dating my last bf, I found out that he had still been seeing on the side his last gf (whom he was supposedly broken up with for 4 months) and once met me, he cut contact. He ff’d me then dumped me abruptly. I then saw him out with a couple of different girls and found out that he married the third one 9 weeks after he met her. Yep, verifiable. All I can say is, that it all became clear. I dont want to be an overlapper, nor do I want to have anything to do with one. There will be an immediate exit next time I find out that I overlapped some other girl.
Amen. Fast forwarding. That was a new experience for me with my overlapper.
This sooo describes my at work AC. He was in some sort of relationshit with a woman 100 miles away while using me to close the attention gap during the week. Now he’s transitioned to a friend of mine, also living far away, after supposedly dumping the far away woman and flirts with a married woman neighbor of mine to again, close the attention gap. He also flirts with women at college-wide gatherings when current gf is not there. Nope, no conscience in play there. Right now I am in Michigan’s upper peninsula helping my dad, hugging my trees, and profoundly grateful to be away from AC’s extreme hostility towards me and having to witness that whole mess.
I was sort of overlapped I suppose – me and my ex were on and off for 3 yrs – each time he ended up contacting me again after a certain period of time and we would get back together – the last time this happened he ended it as he had taken on a job which occupied his weekends and felt cgoing out with me meant he had ‘no time to himself’I backed off at this point but again he returned txting me and saying that we should start spending some time together and generally making me feel like he cared again – then one day he had a meltdown over something insignificant and did the big freeze – it was at this point my gut was telling me there was someone else involved and yep there was, he had got somebody pregnant. I mention this as it feels like a betrayal, like he cheated but we weren’t together so do I have a right to feel this way?
I understand you and recognise the same feelings by myself.
It`s a shame to admit it, but after my ex dumped me for this other woman, I begged him to stay as a friend in my life. I was too desperate to let him go, I thought maybe the other woman was a pushover, because I took too much time to make a decision concerning moving together (within 3 weeks!) It was & is hard to text him as a friend, and to follow his life going on. I got new expectations in him, because he soon regretted his decision. He started writing me ambiguous and flirty again and dumped the other woman after few month. Then he asked me to meet him, but I played it a little harder and he got angry and gave me a silent treatment for one month: Then he was back: “as a friend” with a new girl friend! He wrote me that she wants to have a child, but he wouldn`t be sure…(He abandoned a wife and two kids before!) Well, we`re still in mail contact, but my hopes are down. And thanks to BG I can see him differently… which makes me slowly to feel better…
But yes, the thought of having him a love- child with an other woman still hurts in my heart – although my head knows better! But the connection between head and heart is difficult to make! I desire absolute neutrality towards him…
Marissa why are you putting yourself through this? Have you read Natalies posts about being friends with these men? there are a few as it comes up again and again. If he doesn’t want you he can’t have you. Not in any form. Go no contact and let him miss you whilst you forge a new life. This “friendshit” sounds so painful. Unless you are able to hear about his fantastic new girlfriend and his plans for a future with her and think it is all great then you have no business pretending to be his friend. You are allowing yourself to be an option and it is demeaning. I did this myself, only for a couple of weeks, but it did not end well and I really regret it. Life is so much better being totally NC.
Victorious
“If he doesn’t want you, he can’t have you”.
That’s just perfect.
I’m going to write it down for myself somewhere.
I think I stole it from one of the others. Might have been Grace, CC or Rev. I think it myself whenever I catch myself romanticising about the ex.
Marissa,
What in the world!
You know who this guy is – has disrespected you and others – yet you continue to be his friend????
As the saying goes ‘ with friends like that…..” Time to show yourself some love and respect, and NC this idiot!!!!!!!
This is a really good one.
I recall doing an overlap once in my life… in high school. 😐 I wasn’t having sex back then, but still, it was overlapping and it was fucked up. My point, though, is that overlapping is a little understandable when one is young & stupid, but as an adult? No. 😐
If one is habitually overlapping, one has much bigger issues than jumping from person to person. After reading this post, I realized that The Snake used me as an overlap. The Snake broke up with the 11 year relationship, keeping me around for shits & giggles while forging things with the other woman who is now the wife. And I stupidly remained his friend, not knowing that this was going on. That actually infuriates me thinking about it… makes me wanna stomp on The Snake’s face and head. 😐
I’ll end here before I think about this more than I should and throw a temper tantrum. 😐 Off to read the comments.
I would like to gather up all these AC, EUM Narcs, Cheaters and poor excuse for men and drive them out to an island somewhere off the coast of Australia and leave them there with a lettuce leaf and a pick axe. The pain they cause is impossible to measure and I only hope as we evolve further and women become smarter we will see the extinction of these jerks. My recent ex-EUM is a serial overlapper. I have shed my last tear for his award winning performance over 2 years. To his friends and family he is Mr wonderful – well that wasn’t my experience – cheater , liar , selfish, immature and my personal favourite no sign of any empathy. Even though I have left he pretends I am still with him, tells mummy and daddy ( 38 year old AC) I’m having a ‘spell’ and ignores my request to rack off. I think he feels ripped off he didn’t get to end the relationship himself with an overlap because I dumped him before the next one was locked in. My ex-EUM AC is staging an imaginary overlap ! What an oxygen thief !
No no no Puh-lease dont dump them off the coast of Australia. There are too many there already!!!! He will only sweet talk some poor dolphin to ride on its fin till he gets back to land!!!! Make it a really cold place…like the Arctic where his balls freeze and his dick gets frostbite and he is no more Mr Happy Feet!!!!
Completely agree! Nice idea, but we really don’t need any more down-under!
This post brings out comments of the most painful experiences…l do hope we seed a better way to next generation of women
My x left me after being together for 8 years and I was devastated. My self esteem dropped to below zero and the pain of the rejection was unbearable. It has been almost a year now and slowly I’m starting to feel more at peace. To look for answers I red pretty much every article about this subject and was lucky to find BR during this voyage.
What I wonder about is this. When you say a relationship is not working, what do you mean by that? It may sound like a stupid question but really. I am convinced that when a person falls in love with someone else it is because they feel a void is being filled. I wonder though if this void is there because of a ‘bad’ relationship or that it is something in them that is lacking.
After a couple of traumatic losses in our families in the year prior to him abbandoning me we both felt tired, passive and had a hard time to pick ourselves up. I can immagine that getting attention from another woman gave him a boost of energy and made him feel alive. But does it really say anything about a relationship if someone then leaves after a 3 week crush?
One of the sites I visisted a lot in the beginning was runawayhusbands.com. I wanted to understand it and get some answers. I thought is was bad being left after 8 years but here were women being abbandoned after 20 years or even 38 years. The men they were with changed over night like a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.
When I started reading BR I discovered that I missed several red flags over the years and this has helped me greately. Does this answer my question if our relationship was not working? Maybe it does. But I can’t seem to shake of the feeling that in many cases these men or women do not leave there partner because of problems in their marriage but because of issues in themselves.
I think this subject keeps me so occupied because if the relationship was the problem I could have maybe fixed it but if it is him I could not have. I want to stop doubting myself and start to feel stronger to be able to trust, respect, care and love again.
Perhaps it were the losses in your family that made him think/ contemplative. He may have realized that life is finite/ has an end – and he may have felt an inner urge to give his life new turn. And than that`s easy, when someone new shows interest…
I would say: it´s in him, not you.
Here’s my take on it, sunny:
Any idiot can fall in love – that is, any idiot can get all the hormones lined up in the right order at the right time and FEEL attached to someone. It just happens.
Actually loving someone though, imo, involves making a conscious choice to BEHAVE as though you love them – to stick by them, care for them, help make their life better, avoid hurting them and to make the relationship work.
You don’t make that decision based on the hormones, although they help. You make that decision based on the fact that you’ve got a mutual relationship based on shared values. And, as any emotionally healthy person knows, you make it knowing that at some stage or another it’s not going to feel easy or nice. The hormones wear off.
I think that a lot of people (me included) have fallen into the trap of thinking that love is a feeling that wafts around, floats down on the passive you and then sticks around making you feel good for the rest of your life. And if it doesn’t, then it’s not love and you’re entitled to go off and chase it in the form of someone else.
From your description, your ex stuck with you while it was easy and felt good, but when things got difficult it turned out that he wasn’t committed to the relationship, just the feeling.
I also believe that CHOOSING to love someone actually leads to the sensation of loving them, even when the hormones have worn off. The people who have the loving marriages manage it, I think, because they ACT as though they love their partner, even when it would feel much nicer to go off with someone fresh and new.
In terms of your responsibility, from what you’ve said it sounds as though your (possibly only) mistake was to commit to someone who wasn’t very good at committing to anything that didn’t feel very good or nice. Does that sound right?
it sounds right to me yoghurt. Well put.I just spent a few days with a friend who has been in a LDR for the last 5 years and is very happy and contented and they are planning to move in together at some unclear point maybe.She loves him and thinks he is great and she is lucky to have him. While catching up, subject of my last EUM came up and the fact that there was very possibly an overlap with his ex when we first met and how I now think that that was the first flag where I should have flushed. She says I am oversensitive, after five years with the guy she is still holding on to her ex lovers number in case her boyfriend leaves her and she told her boyfriend that if he ever has a one night stand not to tell her, she would rather not know. I am speechless. I used to listen to her advice ( back when I didn`t trust myself), I would have been just as uncomfortable hearing it but taken it on board and thought of myself as unreasonable . I am truly baffled how anyone can have that attitude, and people do. It`s easy for them to overlap, they just think of it like an insurance policy. Crazy.I feel that people like that and I don`t come from the same planet. Talk about difference in values.
Sunny…I think falling in love does NOT fill a void or an empty hole. In order to truly love, both people need to be whole, healthy, complete in themselves. So when the relationship isn’t working, it’s usually because someone in the relationship has issues they haven’t dealt with, or, if its been 2 healthy partners, maybe it’s just run its course because the values never really matched.
In your case, it sounds like he has issues he hasn’t addressed and is looking outward, rather than inward to fill his holes.
My ex did this to me two months ago, after he played perfect BF for my bday weekend, 4 days later, he was out w someone else… He didnt know I knew, so I left him that day I knew he was going to be w her. He’s an AC, and we’ve been yo-yo’ing for years. Not the first time he was about to disappear and go dark, only to come back with a slew of lies and future faking, after he’s had his fun elsewhere.
Happy Thanksgiving to BR sista’s 🙂 and Natalie.
Natalie, thank you. I am so grateful for BR, that this site and articles have been so enlighting and interesting, helping me put a very debilitating, dysfunctional relationshit behind me. The fact that my ex ‘played’ me again, and pulled the rug out from me this last time (it is the last time), and coming out of it barely feeling hurt or angry… And it’s because I was more self aware, and felt more confident… More aware that it was not what I thought it was (him coming back = I’m special, it’s love), I’m thankful that I now have such an opportunity for having whatever I want in life, now that the ‘bad’ is out. I see him for exactly who he is, and has always been. And now that I ‘see’, I see him very different now that he’s off the pedestal I’ve always put him on. Definately NOT the kind of person I should’ve been spending any time with. I learned some very valuable lessons… For that I am grateful. I realize we can ‘worry’ if they end up being a better BF w the next one. I get that. But, I know what he was about, his character, lack of integrity and kindness…. I don’t care what he does w the next one. I care about the next one in MY life. When you see the situation for what it is, and see these kind of people for who they are (lacking integrity, morals, good character traits) you wont give a damn what happens to them. Because finally… You’ll be doing what you’re ‘supposed’ to be doing… Living your best life that you’re supposed to create for yourself. These ‘types’ are definately not the answer. I get to pick now, I get to choose if someone is ‘good’ and ‘worthy’. And i absolutely trust my judgement. I don’t need validation from anyone… That ‘need’ is no longer there. I am not a real ‘religious’ person… I believe in having faith in the whole idea of “let go and let God”, and if you’re being the best you can be, especially for those closest to you (give all that energy and love to your family and good friends… Those are the ones that actually deserve it), and you won’t take it so personally when some ‘low-life’ does some shady BS to you (over and over). You’d realize, it’s not really about you, and the only thing you should blame yourself for is believing your own lies… That you’re not good enough.
I am (thankfully) quite a different woman than I was a year ago. My thoughts and perspectives, very different. But it’s only because I was determined to get to the bottom of why the eff I felt so low about myself to put up w such BS. I also read most of the articles on this site. Helped tremendously. 🙂
I look back at the guy who overlapped me with another girl 6 years ago. He dates a lot. He must have dated dozens of women since, and none stuck around. None became the girlfriend – it always ended after a few months of him being unwilling to commit. Whatever he didn’t see in me, he doesn’t see in any woman and he’s probably not capable of seeing it at all. It wasn’t me, it’s him. He remained the same (now with receding hairline though), even though the woman by his side changed.
It took me a long while to move on, and I hardly think about him anymore. When I do, I realize he must be very lonely and miserable to lead that life.
Doesn’t,
How do you know this about this guy?
How long were you involved?
I mean: how do you know so much re. his personal life?
He’s a also a colleague, there are only 3 major companies in that field in this country and everyone in our industry. We still have a few shared friends. We’ve been “together” for 6 months, give or take, during which he was doing a lot of assclownery – saying he’ll be serious with me one day, then moving the goal posts the other.
It’s not that I actively chase news about him, but these rumors about him pop from time to time.
I don’t date separated men because of the overlapping issue. Too many separated guys are out there looking to date when they should be getting therapy, climbing a mountain, doing yoga, anything but dragging some poor woman into the picture to deal with their emotional baggage.
I was asked out recently by a separated guy, and I told him about my policy. Here is the response I got, which was a grown-up one. But it begs the question, Why did he think it was ok to attempt to waste my time? Overlapping is just plain selfish.
“Thanks for your honesty. You’re not the first person to state your policy on dating separated guys. It’s a good policy to have so that you’re not wasting your time. Slowly i am emotionally detaching myself from the ex. It’s just a matter of time before i file for divorce. Hope to see you at other Meetups.”
I unfortunately got caught up with an overlapping separated man also. Big mistake. He was just going from one woman to another and within only TWO months of leaving his house, was hot and heavy with the woman he dumped me for (and seeing at the same time). I’m too embarrassed to even admit how short a time we were together – and I didn’t know he was doing any of this until when breaking up with me he admitting he was trying to “juggle two budding relationships at the same time.” Who the hell did he think he was, Don Juan? Damn, he should have been juggling NO relationships, but getting therapy and spending some serious alone time with himself instead.
After that he wasn’t even divorced yet but was parading her all over town. (At least I tried to be discreet and not let anyone know we were together until I figured out what was happening with us. Thank God I did, because at least nobody here in town or at work knows I was involved with this creep!)
What’s annoying about this is that he got everything he wanted – he got to dump his old wife, and wasted no time going deep with a younger woman who’s crazy about him – oh, and managed to “sample” a bunch of women in between. Yep, that’s every old man’s dream!
Sadder,
The guy sounds like an insecure loser in desperate need of a mid-life ego stroke. That type of person most likely never knew how to be a caring partner in any relationship, never mind their mid-life desperate-to-be-young relationships.
Also, it sounds like he’s disrespected every woman in his path, including the ex-wife. Imagine how she must feel? The current wife will ultimately discover what type of man she’s involved with, once the rose-tinted glasses come off.
You dodged a bullet.
I’ve seen so many people come out of long-term relationships and go into panic mode, desperate to find a big old band-aid to cover those nasty emotional scars. I know I’m generalizing, but men seem to do this more often than women. I just know I don’t want to be someone’s band-aid.
I used to go from relationship to relationship, never overlapping, but never taking more than a month or two till I dove into the next one. This year and a bit is the longest I’ve been single in my life, and it’s been hard, but it feels good. I have turned down several men who were obviously problematic. That was easy.
The real challenge will be facing my usual weakness – a good looking charmer who’s EUM. I haven’t come across one yet, and I look forward to putting the new me to the test.
Thanks Miss B. Your insight seems uncannily accurate for him – “That type of person most likely never knew how to be a caring partner in any relationship, never mind their mid-life desperate-to-be-young relationships.” That seems to be him to a T! He said quite a few things that gave me the impression that he’s terrified of getting old.
This particular article got to me and touched a deep well of anger that I thought I’d pretty much drained. Damn. More work to do, clearly. But you’re right, I dodged a bullet. And I am very ashamed of my role in being part of this guy’s incredible insensitivity towards his wife as he became the biggest womanizing sleaze in the county. That must have been enormously humiliating for her, especially in a small town like this. I’m really, REALLY sorry I was part of it. I often think of her and send a silent prayer that she’s gotten over the pain of losing a 30-year marriage and is now headed for a much happier life – oh, and also that she took him to the cleaners! 🙂
Smart! Good way to protect yourself from unnecessary hurt!
Right on Miss Bliss! I also maintained a strict no-separated men (or married — which really should go w/out saying) up until this year when I got suckered in by my EUM/AC who was “finalizing” his divorce. I was to my credit, leery, but oh, how I would’ve spared myself so much aggravation, pain and angst if I hadn’t given so much as an inch. I bought into the “we met at the precipice” and in a way that appeared true as they had been separated for 2 years (living apart) and he assured me that they were just coming to terms with the custody arrangement. I wasn’t enthused but I thought what would a couple of months difference make? We met start of Feb and I ended it on July 4. To my knowledge they are still “finalizing” their divorce and went out of state with their child to see his folks for Thanksgiving. Uh…what the what? No matter how much I tried not to feel like the “other woman” their strange dynamic certainly made me feel every bit so and his EUM/AC ways only solidified my concerns. He even had the nerve to suggest that my wariness was the reason he was behaving warily!
I’ve seen other posts warning against separated men so I’m responding to yours hoping other women will read your strong resolve and my attached warning. Stay away! Treat them like lepers & leeches because emotionally they are. Let them “finalize” their divorce and take the time they need to heal. If they truly care about you, they will not want to put you through the last death throes of their marriage. They will not place you directly in the line of fire. Doing otherwise is a HUGE red flag of selfishness and emotional air-bagging.
(Thank you Natalie for describing it so succinctly and aptly).
It was my first and last time tussling with a separated man. When I was younger, I would never have considered it but somehow with age I find myself “making exceptions to the rule.” I’m trying to rediscover my 25-year-old boundaries before life and EUM/AC men started eroding and busting them. Whew!
i hear you. the ex EUM was also ‘separated’. for 2.5 years. ‘hadn’t gotten around to do the paperwork.’ i should have listened to my gut right then and there. i let the finalisation of my divorce drag on for a while, because i wasn’t emotionally ready to cut the final ties. exactly the reason why the EUM hadn’t gotten around it.
i seriously thought i had some healthy boundaries in place. didn’t even date for 2 whole years because i needed and wanted time to heal and work on myself. i thought i was ready and the guy was so lovely, i looked the other way when the red flag was waving in my face.
i recently encountered another man, who sad he’d been ‘separated’ for 3 years. but still living with his ex, who’s his best friend. yah, i heard that one before. i flushed him faster than the speed of light.
married men were off limits to me before, but i put my trust in a separated one. no way i’ll be doing that again.
@Lawrence. I understand what you’re saying. Wanting to believe in the ‘good’, and believing that ‘assclowns’ even understand what humanity is. It’s a nice thought.
The thing is… I’ll start w the extreme examples and work my way down to ‘assclowns’.
In extreme and unfortunate circumstances, pedophiles, murderers, physical abusers (includes mental/emotional… Just as bad), I don’t believe a shred of humanity has ever existed with these “monsters”. Or ever will.
Let’s bring it down a few notches… Assclowns, EUM’s, narcissists… Pathological liars, Sociopaths… Are not thinking of other peoples best interests or ‘humanity’. There’s a buffet of bad character flaws going on w these kind of people. They don’t think about wanting to be ‘good’ for humanity and decide one day to be a volunteer for the Red Cross or something, lol.
They think about themselves. They lie, manipulate, and use other people to get what they need/want from others until they feel ‘better’ about themselves… Then when their not getting their ‘fill’ anymore, they move on to the next.
We all make mistakes… People who care about humanity and are good people, make mistakes, have regrets and try to turn things around, learn from those mistakes… So we can live with integrity and be authentic, not just for us, but for those around us. That’s humanity.
Assclowns will use, and hurt those they know who care about them, some are predators/opportunists… That take advantage of vulnerable women w low self esteem. They ‘play’. And they do it (they do it well, btw… They know how to play a good game) over and over again… And have no problem doing it to others
at the same time.
There’s no chance for humanity where there’s complete selfishness.
Believing these ‘types’ are empathetic towards humanity and really want to be ‘good’, is a lie every fallback girl tells herself. It’s what keeps the door open to them instead of slamming it shut.
Not every person is ‘good’, or cares about how ‘inhumane’ their behaviors are towards people that do care for them.
Sad, but true.
There is a very good book about these points called People of the Lie by Scott Peck. It tackles the concept of evil and shows that some people´s actions are genuinely bad, it´s not the result of a misunderstanding/bad childhood experiences/whatever. I found it really interesting because this is something psychology doesn´t adress, nowadays it seems there is a reasonable explanation for any behaviour that is damaging towards others or ourselves. There is the underlying belief that all “badness” is the result of some disease, perhaps it´s less threatening to see things from that point of view.
After reading that book I´ve come to think that the best thing to do when faced with badness (which the author links to lying, in different aspects) is to just get away asap.
Lilia, I read that book, too, and I heartily agree with you…
Demke,
This is so true. I write about psychopaths and provide survivor support to those who have been so victimized.
While all survivors are at a deficit when getting into these relationships with psychopath,sociopaths, narcissists (whatever label is comfie for you, but they’re all the same in fatal character flaws), many of the survivors who didn’t come from unhealthy backgrounds, were under the illusion that ALL ARE GOOD. They simply cannot imagine that all are NOT good. This is foundational for many survivors, because society and religious backgrounds perpetuate the notion that there is good in everyone. Psychopaths get away with what they do because she is unable to see him for what he is. She sees him through HER perceptions ONLY. This idea that all are good, in my opinion, is the hardest to overcome and in which to act on in getting out of the relationship.
What is so frustrating for me is that psychopaths KNOW this. They know she is easily duped into believing that somehow there is good in him and that he is incapable of the atrocities that he commits and the harm he causes.
When we have empathy and we believe all are good, it is so hard to convince a survivor that what the psychopath is doing to her is nothing less than evil and without conscience. Her empathy is so high, she can’t see the forest for the trees.
Sometimes, that naivete is the only thing that keeps her victimized, yet in my experience, is the hardest belief system to break.
K, I agree with you…
This stuff happens to men too. Women can be wolves in sheep’s clothing as well….
Well said, Demke, well said….
Natalie: Thank you!
I’m sorry but I have to disagree. CHEATING IS CHEATING.
Abusive (physical & emotional) is a justification and does not absolve you of this vile behavior. Where does the the justification on cheating stop? Don’t men who have cheated have similar justifications?
I was in a emotional abusive marriage for 15 years and I never once cheated even when I had a chance.
My values include not cheating. But then I hold myself to standards that I expect from others.
Confused
Yep, my ex pushed me down the stairs, landed me in hospital twice, the injury will dog me for life, as will the scars, he choked me until I passed out. Because I cheated on him, he will forever hold himself out as the “good guy” if he ever thinks about our relationship at all. That pissed me off for ages but I’m over it now (mostly).
And my next boyfriend hurt me even more!
I wouldn’t cheat again. Yes, it’s wrong but, also, from a purely selfish viewpoint it’s not even worth it!
Grace: I’m sorry you went through that. From someone who went through abusive, I related and understand how difficult it is. My issue is that I don’t like the justification of cheating with the “I had no other option but to cheat to get out” excuse.
There ARE other ways. Friends, family, the law, shelters, etc.
The justification cheater makers are unbelievable (this unfortunately includes women). I find the whole act of cheating vile.
Cheating damages everyone. The person cheating the most and it destroys the person cheated on. (I have first hand experience here). You self esteem plummets and soul dies a little.
Anyway, I”ve been reading the post and so glad you are happy with your boyF. You deserve to be happy.
Cheating,
I understand how you feel, I really do. When it comes down to DYNAMICS though, particularly in an abusive relationship, “cheating” is just surface dirt. There is no nobility in living with a manipulative, “cheating” liar. Adultery is not the only sin an abuser commits. There are red flags missed when marrying someone like this a whole lot of overlooking very BAD behaivor prior to a revelation or discovery of cheating out of an abuser.
Being married to an abuser doesn’t absolve anyone of anything either.
Having been married to a lying, cheating, manipulative psychopath is not exactly a source of pride for me. Nor is it an excuse for the nonsense I put up with and the pain caused to others in my DENIAL.
Just sayin….
K
Agreed. Nat does blow the overlappers behaviour out of the water but we take responsibility too. Not by blaming ourselves for being over lapped or others for overlapping or comparing ourselves to others. We take responsibility for our own lives and behaviour, and looking down on others does not help us do that. It,s a distraction.
As for sin, let him who is without cast the first stone. All the woman,s accusers left, one by one starting with the oldest. If you,re older maybe you,re more aware of how you,ve fallen short. Or you,ve just had more time for screw ups! God forgives me and if he forgave my ex i would be happy(ish). What a man or a woman thinks of me is not even on the scale compared to that.
Of course it,s taken me a long time to get here and i understand the transitional and necessary period of anger, unforgivenesss, pain but it,s not the plan to stay in that place.
within six months my ex met his beautiful future wife. i can,t even tell myself that karma wins out and they get theirs. Maybe they won,t. And that,s okay. It,s only my own standing before God I need be concerned about.
It has nothing to do with “casting the first stone…”. I has to do with the reality that you must see before your eyes and calling it for what it is. Simple.
I’m offering my recent personal experiences with overlapping to present another side to it. Hope it helps with keeping things in perspective.
I’ve never overlapped until this year. It was not intentional, not something I was seeking but I think it actually did more good than harm. I was at the end of my rope in more ways than one with my then EUM/AC. I had tried breaking up before but he had a smooth way of saying enough to keep me in the “justifying, minimalising, denying” zone. Mind you, that before him I had not been w/ anyone for 4 years — 2 of which were by choice in terms of healing and the other 2 because I simply went on bad first dates w/out bothering going on a second. I think the reason I was so vulnerable and willing to put up with his crumbs was my loneliness.
I also had started to believe that ALL men behaved in varying degrees like this EUM/AC. So I’d add “normalizing” to the above three denials. Ironically, the EUM/AC pulled yet another stunt that made me question my future happiness with someone as inconsiderate as him. I went out with a friend later that night and we wound up meeting some of her friends for a late-night dinner.
One of their friends was a gorgeous, single, Frenchman! He was charming, attentive, considerate, fun and debonair. I hadn’t technically ended it with the EUM-troll yet, so I was very guarded but flattered all to pieces by his interest. I practically burst into tears when I said I’d like an espresso and he jumped from the table and brought it to me. My current EUM would never do anything remotely thoughtful like that.
Meeting this man right at that pivotal time was a godsend and gave me the opportunity to compare. I suddenly saw that a man could be polite, generous and even romantic by pulling the chair out for me, walking on the right side of the road and taking special care by putting a good foot forward. I hadn’t experienced that in so long I thought such niceties didn’t exist anymore.
I didn’t feel right about giving him my number but I didn’t feel entirely wrong either. I’m extremely loyal (to a fault) and I had just earlier that day been reconsidering my relationship when I had this example of something else presented to me.
I tried to end it with the EUM. I even told him about the Frenchman and how he treated me well. How it made me feel as a woman and a person. How his lack of care pissed me off because it made me vulnerable to do something with someone else. I felt set up by his lack of actions to be swept away when providence intervened. That made me mad!
EUM/AC was warned. He said enough for me to warily give him another chance. I should have booked. We continued on life support for another couple of weeks until he pulled another craptastic stunt in front of his son. In all that time the Frenchman pursued me but I did not return his interest. I stayed the course until I finally had enough!
I ended it with EUM/AC on the 4th of July. Happy Independence Day to me! A couple of days later the Frenchman contacted me (not knowing about the split) and asked me out yet again. I accepted.
I felt weird and awkward. I’ve never gone literally right from one to the other like that before but I have to say it was the best thing that happened to me. The Frenchman was like a breath of fresh air. He was lovely and dear.
We went on a few dates and they were so counter to everything I had experienced with the EUM/AC that I think it did wonders for my self-esteem. Ultimately, we just didn’t “connect.” Probably because I wasn’t truly ready but it came down to lifestyle choices — he was a party animal and I’m not and never will be. He also wanted arm candy. He wasn’t mean or selfish like the EUM. He just wasn’t the right fit. I was bummed but I felt validated and then Frenchie went to Australia for a trip…and I overlapped AGAIN!
Met a guy of all places in jury duty. We were in the same room, got to chatting and discovered we were neighbors, worked in the same industry and had crossed paths peripherally. By the end of the day we exchanged numbers. Frenchie was in the land down under and I was soon having coffee with a fellow juror. We dated until it became clear all he was willing to offer was a booty call…got to say he was great in the sack (yet another quality EUM lacked) and worth a few rounds but after a couple of months I lost interest. I wasn’t devastated just let down and adrift.
Frenchie came back but I never saw him again. I was rebounding in a way I hadn’t before and while it spun me around in some positive ways, I also was still dealing with the emotional aftermath of the EUM. I never promised anything or became exclusive with these men. I simply dated.
After these blokes I took some time off, found Natalie’s site and altered my perception and worked on healing without distraction. After reading this article, I have to say I’m guilty of “overlapping.” I did it. For me, it was a save. I think I would’ve been vulnerable to the EUM/AC right when I was so distracted by the Frenchman followed by the juror. By the time I was done w/ both of them, I knew I still had work to do (even more so) but I also had a yardstick of something else to go by too which helped enormously. I was disappointed by both men but for different reasons. That didn’t help totally either so it’s a bit of a draw. I had more stuff to work on.
I did not purposely seek to overlap. I was close to done w/ the EUM and I think the universe gave me a little nudge. It presented options I didn’t even think I had. I was acutely aware of rebounding so it wasn’t like I wanted to jump start into another relationship, but knowing that I could be treated far, far better restored my confidence. It was a blessing that dovetailed with finding Natalie.
I think there are those who can’t be alone and they set up backdoor people as options. That’s a serial overlapper. Then there are those who by turns of fate find themselves meeting someone at an opportune moment that gives them clarity. I seriously doubt the longevity of these relationships when they do happen, but I suppose anything is possible. I wasn’t in the head space of “replacing” my EUM by any means. I explored the opportunities presented to me and this only after I finally pulled the life support plug of the so-called “relationship.”
I don’t feel bad about what I did. It was not with any intent that I met 2 men straight away. They were oddly enough my “emotional air bags” although I did not abuse this and they were unaware of their role. They had fun, no harm, no foul. No one got hurt or led on.
Strangely enough, I had the opportunity to overlap after the juror with yet another guy. Because of Natalie’s wisdom however I was able to spot amber then code red flags of Future Faking and other undesirable traits before getting involved physically or emotionally. After I stopped returning his calls and went NC…I met yet ANOTHER guy while hiding behind a bush in the dark to sneak a smoke on museum grounds. Seriously, it was like the song “It’s Raining Men.” Again, thanks to Natalie, I dodged a potential bullet as he made it clear on our first date that any relationship with him would be “strictly on his terms.” I smiled, nodded and jogged. Went NC.
Now as some of you know, I’ve been depressed through all of this too because I feel like damn…the quantity is overflowing after not meeting anyone for years (and my lifestyle has not significantly changed) but the quality is lacking.
I made a list of the qualities I want, deal breakers, and made a conscious decision to go it alone for a while. I told myself if I meet someone with said qualities I’m looking for, I’ll slowly “discover” them but I probably won’t for a long time…and that’s okay. I ain’t looking…frankly, I’m a tied and spun out to even bother.
Natalie has cleared my head, shielded my heart and many ladies on here such as Grizelda make me feel supported and safe to express my thoughts. I won’t say I’m bustin’ w/ happiness but I’ve been improving each and everyday. Life’s been good.
Then my car got towed. I didn’t even know what to do as I’ve never had a car impounded before. There I am looking my worst with oily hair, a sweatshirt, a recently popped zit and no $$ (again, in the dark) sitting on the curb in shock.
A man who happens to be friends with one of my neighbors comes up to his truck and sees me there shaking like a leaf. I told him what happened and he immediately made phone calls, took control of the situation and offered to help me out. Just because. Both men went to DMV the next day, got my car out of impound, and even refused to let me buy them lunch! This friend of my neighbor’s put his money into fixing up my car (which I’m selling) and told me not to worry.
Granted, this is a crazy “white-knight” situation to which I’m being very cautious. Still, this man who I’ve been thrust with spending a couple of days with in dealing with my car has not shown one damn red flag yet. Not even a freakin’ amber. He’s kind, thoughtful, asks questions, takes charge when necessary but is not overly aggressive, laughs without restraint, has a solid career, is not pretentious and has taken me out to two dinners and drinks. He isn’t a grab-asser, he’s attracted to me but has respected my wishes not to rush into anything physical just yet (recent article Natalie wrote helped me enormously w/ this sex first — discover later issue). He’s attractive, no dependents, was married in his youth, divorced for several years and would do it again with the right woman. I’m looking for flags. I haven’t found any yet but it’s all new so I’m enjoying the discovery phase right now. I’m moving slowly and letting him unfold. Am I in shock? Yes. Am I doubtful? Yes. Am I willing to give a man who hasn’t given me a reason to jog a chance? Yes.
And I have Natalie to thank because I think she’s responsible for fixing my compass and giving me the strength I need to be braver, wiser and recognize both the good that maybe is really out there and the bad which definitely is abundant.
I apologize for the length of this. If any of you ladies find yourself in a similar situation where a good guy pops up when you’re time-wasting with a bad one…I’m not recommending cheating but I have to say be open, honest and if there’s an overlap, take care of yourself and take a little leap.
Today, in America, it’s Thanksgiving. I just want to say many thanks to Natalie and all of you. If you took the time to read this, I thank you for that too. Have a wonderful Thursday in the UK and elsewhere. All my love and support!!
Ha! How fab 🙂
I know that a few days in is too early to say that I hope it works out but… I hope that he at least restores your faith in the elusive Good Man! And if not, the fact that you’ve had a couple of flag-free days at least indicates that there are some Better-Than-Appalling men out there, I suppose.
Fwiw, and whilst I’m sure that the quantity-over-quality issue is disheartening, I think that you’re in a much stronger position when you CAN meet a string of men and keep on flushing until someone nice comes along. I don’t meet anyone atm (circumstances dictate) and whilst I’m okay with that, it does mean that there’s a lot more hanging on any man that DOES pop up – I desperately want him to be half-decent just because he’s likely to be the last for a while. And I think that I run the risk of distorting my perception.
I suppose it’s just a probability thing – the more men you meet the more likely you are to find a good egg.
Anyway
Anyway…?
Nope, no idea why that popped in!
It is too early to know what’s what but I’m keeping my focus on the “discovery phase.” Looking back, I think I had a tendency to ignore obvious flags because I so much wanted the “discovery” to last a little bit longer. I had a weird way of justifying honesty in that I’d think “If they’re willing to show me their worst upfront then it’s up to me to decide if I can deal with it.”
The quantity vs. quality aspect really had and still has me down. It’s no fun to meet someone and then immediately flush…over and over until you lose hope for common decency and consideration.
I don’t think I’m ready just yet so I’m taking it slow and without expectations. The fact that he hasn’t shown any red flags is the reason I’m engaging at all. I don’t want my negativity and bad experiences to keep me from letting a possible good guy unfold. So, we’ll see. I don’t think I’d have given him a chance but for Natalie. Her advice is giving me the validation that what I want isn’t unreasonable. A string of EUM’s will leave you questioning your standards eventually. This site is invaluable.
These posts are so invaluable to me because I learn so much about myself and amazingly, it helps to clarify my boundaries and what I am willing and not willing to do now.
I’m absolutely convinced, without a shadow of one doubt, that being absolutely ALONE is the only way to a genuine recovery from painful relationships. I’m also convinced that doing this is the hardest, most challenging thing for most women to do. I see it over and over again.
If you cannot be ALONE for a very LONG established period of time and reach a point of truly knowing yourself, trusting yourself…you’ll repeat your patterns. This is so repetitive, so cyclical, I’m convinced it’s true.
It isn’t a relationship with a man that will validate you. Even a good man. It’s you that has to validate you.
I think after an assclown experience, being single at LEAST two years is wise.
Why are we obsessed with the notion that time is not on our side and that we have to have a relationship RIGHT NOW? WHY do we have to have a relationship RIGHT NOW?
What harm would it do to be without a man for a couple of years and fall in love with YOU?
More and more I’m seeing that I’m doing the absolute right thing for me in staying out of the dating pool. I want to be in a place where I’m comfortable alone, and I’d be comfortable in a relationship EVENTUALLY that was right with a good man. And if it doesn’t happen, that’s okay too.
I want to learn just to be happy being with me now.
Thank you for sharing your experiences.
MRwriter;
Girrrrl…..that doesn’t sound like ‘crickets’ 🙂
Anon — Okay, you got me there. When I wrote that I had just kicked all 4 men to the curb for various reasons and was in a calm stillness (little did I know before the storm). I consciously made a decision to not date for a while (and I still think that applies).
Until this year, I’ve never experienced this much interest from a variety of men. Ever. I usually go long stretches (years) because very few men approach me. I’m sure that doesn’t help my ego or self-esteem. I’m no beauty by LA standards and it doesn’t help that most men act like they’re doing me the favor of being on my arm. The upgrade attitude is almost always on the table and I have to work really hard not to let that suck out my spirit.
I keep trying to figure out what I’m doing differently but I cannot find anything to explain this sudden in flux. I think it’s just a fluke.
I am enjoying the interest though. If I can date, discover and allow men to unfold, I think I’ll be in a better position to not accept the crumbs I was so willing to gobble up before because it felt like I was stumbling on a watering hole in the desert only to find out it was just a mirage. The couple of EUM/AC’s I dallied with were the ones between long, lonely stretches of no man even giving me a second look. So when one did seem to “see” me I was all too willing to try to make it work (against my better judgment/gut/Natalie’s “betting on the long shot”). I don’t think I realized until this spree of men how much feeling invisible had made me vulnerable and electing for crumbs.
At least I didn’t stay too long with any of these EUM/AC’s, I somehow maintained my self-esteem despite being the “Invisible Woman.” But I think it doubly hurt to go without, be offered crumbs and still walk away starving for more. A decade of that made me emotionally anorexic.
If nothing else, I feel desirable, that I do have options and if this is just a brief merry-go-ride, I need to hold on to the knowledge that a man can want me and want to do right by me. Maybe that’s the lesson in all this.
And if I hear crickets chirping again…well, at least they won’t be coming from the back alley of my old attitude of the “Last Chance Saloon.” That’s an improvement.
Well after reading this and all the comments about how common this behavior is, I’ve just gotten a terrible case of cold feet about dating again.
I love being single and drama-free. Good luck to those of you who worry day to day when your man will slip up and break your heart. I’m just not courageous enough to go there at this point in my life.
Read this, it will help you to find the courage again:
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/ready-aim-fire-how-willing-are-you-to-stretch-yourself-in-dating-relationships-and-life/ .
Good luck!
Me too. I actually wonder if in the UK there are any men who are not mentally unsound, control freak, selfish assclowns.
S,
I don’t think it’s about “courage” to walk into a house on fire, do you?
What you’re doing, I think, IS healthy.
It’s hard because learning to be okay alone and single, being happy with you, can really feel like something is amiss somehow with you when the majority have extinguishers in hand running toward that house on fire, even when it’s nearly burned to the foundation.
You’re doing the right thing!
I find this site incredibly helpful to me in my own recovery. I’m very grateful for the support I have found here and to you, Natalie for your brilliant writing and posts.
Leaving a gift for you behind and hoping everyone here has a wonderful and Happy Thanksgiving!
I needed this. My ex is the mother of all assclowns. He overlapped me with a new gf when our son was 3 months old. He broke up with me without a valid explanation and just said things are not working out. We had already started plans on getting married. A week later he had pictures all over FB of him and a new chick who I had been suspicious of and who he had said was just a friend. A month later he proposes to her and the new gf is now flashing her ring all over social media and posting pictures of them happy together. They are both not my friends on FB but we have mutual friends so its hard to avoid. Word has it they are getting married next year. My son is 6 months old and the EUM ex still insists on being in his life and sees him once in a while and helps with support.And he also has the whole let’s be friends line going on. Im going through a difficult time and I do not know how to initiate NC while we share a son, so Im forced to have this assclown in my life forever.Worst thing, I still love him. 🙁 BR has really helped go through this and I hope Nat will write something about assclown baby daddys and how to deal with them.
Aw Celeste.
I had a very similar situation (except that my baby was two months old and we weren’t ever getting married… I was just a permanent piece of overlap until he met someone ‘worthy’). I’ve since been lucky enough to see him three times a week, pretty much every week, and I know that it’s not easy.
I have read Natalie’s advice on situations where people share a child/children before (think there’s a post on here somewhere about it – I’ll go and look in a sec). But in the meantime and with the benefit of hindsight and in the spirit of do-as-I-say-not-as-I-did, here’s my advice:
a) you are under no obligation to be friends with him. He hasn’t treated you as a friend, he’s been emotionally callous at the most vulnerable time of your life. So I’d aim for civil, but don’t let him act as though you owe him ANYTHING other than access to his child – don’t let him into your house and don’t talk to him about anything other than the child. Remember – it’s pretty noble of you to be doing the Right Thing and letting him have that, considering how painful he’s made it.
b) have rigid and regular arrangements and make it clear that you won’t accommodate him if he messes you around. He has a right to see his child, but on your terms and only if he honours the arrangements. Don’t let him stroll in and out whenever it suits him, and don’t run around making it easier for him. If he wants to see his kid then he can put the welly in.
c) you don’t want your child growing up seeing him make you miserable – you want your child to learn healthy relationship habits. So make it clear that if he breaks ANY of your boundaries and makes you feel uncomfortable or upset IN ANY WAY he will forfeit ALL contact with you and have to put up with complicated and tiresome arrangements with third-parties etc to see the baby.
d) Treat it like a business/professional relationship wherever possible – see Natalie’s advice on working with your ex.
e) DON’T fall into the trap of sitting around a lot on your own because you’ve got a baby – get out and about wherever possible and try to build an interesting life for both of you in other directions. I know it feels as though nothing will make you feel better atm, but even something that makes you feel a teeny bit better/distracts you for a short while is better than nothing.
f) (This one is hard) Make a pact with yourself that you won’t EVER use the baby to ‘get’ at him. Even if you don’t think that’s morally wrong, it’ll just keep you bound to him and his reactions emotionally, you won’t get the result that you want and it’ll just suck.
g) Don’t subscribe to his portrayal of events – it isn’t true. At the moment he’ll be making out to himself and everyone else that you were a ‘mistake’ and she’s the love of his life. This is utter codswallop. What happened was that he was too much of an immature and emotionally stunted little boy to be able to cope with the responsibility and difficulties of having a child, and he dealt with that by finding himself an easier situation. He’s still an immature and emotionally-stunted little child and she’ll find that out the minute things get difficult in any way, shape or form for them.
h) Remember that things change – I imagine that it feels like you’re stuck in this situation forever but things will look different in the future.
i) Get your head round the fact that you aren’t EVER going to be together, no matter what happens – not because he didn’t want it, but because YOU don’t want it. Your baby is too precious to risk taking a chance on his/her emotional health by getting together with a flaky ac, father or not. You want to be modelling a positive relationship and one day you will be.
j) Take lots of photos, make a million souvenir scrapbooks, create lots of brilliant memories and make the all-time most of your gorgeous baby. The thing that I most regret now is that I was too busy being sad to really enjoy my son’s babyhood.
I know that this is really really really hard and I think it sounds as though you’re doing terrifically well so far. Lots of hugs for you and the baby xxxx
PS The most important thing that you can give your child – far far more important than a father figure – is an upbringing with an emotionally healthy and coping mother.
If you feel as though it’s getting too much for you then imo you’re perfectly within your rights to do what you can to stay okay and sane, even if that means making his life much harder.
Also, call in any and all help and support that you can from family, friends etc.
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/reader-question-how-do-i-stick-to-no-contact-when-we-have-kids/
Awww you guys, You’re the greatest. That has helped me so much more. This site is awesome. I know it really needs for me to have a thick skin but with your advice I believe Im a step further into happier land. 🙂
🙂 thanks Yoghurt. I thought you were two. lol!
No worries – glad it helped 🙂
Thick skin schmick schkin. Don’t beat yourself up for the way that you’re feeling (it’s a horrifically difficult situation, whichever level you look at it). Having said that, you need to make sure that you don’t give him anymore opportunities to wriggle in and make you feel worse. You’ve got enough on your plate and you need to be able to keep it together.
(I wish I’d followed my own advice! The number of times I’ve had to deal with the baby, the laundry, work, other responsibilities AND process another lorry-load of rejection that he just casually dumped on me… flamin nuisance and completely pointless).
One day you’ll be in a place where you can look at him and just see him as a bit of a pest but nothing more. I know this because if I can get there then anyone can.
In the meantime, keep posting and do as many nice things for yourself as you can, whenever you possibly can 🙂
yoghurt?
you. are. awesome.
thanks cc 🙂
you. are. awesome. too. (and I miss your posts).
Mind, I’d be MORE awesome if I’d actually followed my own advice from the beginning…
Grizelda,
I really enjoyed your post. With overlappers it is definitely an ego thing. They justify it by thinking, “Hey I’ve gotta look out for me and get my needs met.” Well, yes, but they take it to such an extreme. So much so they lose the ability to empathize. They can’t imagine/put thought into how their actions will affect the current partner and the new one ( who they are using as a buffer to get them over the current/previous relationship problems, which doesn’t work, it just puts them in more emotional debt). When we don’t fully experience the pains of our losses or thoughtfuly, authentically and honestly examine the issues/ problems, they follow us into the present and future until we face them. Also, there are people who find themselves severely unhappy/in a funk and they think a new town (geographical fix, often times seen with addicts/alcoholics and my exes) or that a new job/change in scenery will do the trick. And that a previous or different woman will fix their inner turmoil. I’m not saying it’s wrong to want to move, change careers, hobbies, friends or partners…..but first: ill gotten gains are never, ever good under any circumstance, and we have to be really solid, self loving and self accepting people or we will repeat the same mistakes using the same bad habits with the same shady people, jobs, etc. Real, lasting change starts from the inside and permeates outward. Also people (women do this too in dating) are not automobiles to be discarded and traded up.
Natalie, Jennifer, Rosie:
You all pretty much summed up my last ex. It took me a very long time to get over her. I was her overlap. I didn’t realize then what I know now after finding BR.
She did a geographical, moved clear across the pond, told me her relationship was over. I waited a few months to get to know her before it became romantic. I wanted to make sure she was out of that relationship. We hung out as friends, she kept telling me it was over. I believed her because she was “only a friend”, and I thought she was being honest, speaking with no ulterior motives.
An attraction grew, I acted on it when I finally believed she was out of her relationship. Because she was in a new country, I figured she really was single now. Yeah, there were red flags, but she was so….
It ended so badly, all along she was trying to get her “ex” back into her life, move her to the US. Even though I knew something was wrong, I still thought she would pick me.
I’ve done every single thing Natalie has written about. This being overlapped, felt like being cheated on, and used. I know a lot of you str8 women feel used by men for sex sometimes. I’d never felt that with a woman. This woman used me for sex, and to buffer her loneliness. To help her establish a new home in a new country, her business, to feel connected to her new life.
She threw me away when she was done. She is rotten to the core. I felt so bad for so long, and I guess I still do a little but nothing like I used to.
This woman feels entitled to use others, she was very vain. I now understand why she moved to another country. I’m sure she burned bridges. Her “ex” had cheated on her for years, like a fool I let her use me to get back at her ex. She must have really rubbed her ex’s nose in it. I was just a device, I was just what was needed to help her work her plan out. It was really awful! I stuck my head in the sand and let it all happen. I paid dearly for this. She ended up with what she planned, she was a very good planner.
Thanks to BR, I will never ever ever be involved with a shady using cheating lying excuse for a woman.
Thanks you guys, you’ve all helped tremendously.
Wow, pinkpanther, it doesn’t seem as if you were subconsciously trying to sabotage this one. It seems you were trying to do everything “right” but still got burned. I’m really sorry.
I haven’t posted much as to why I read BR and started posting and I don’t know if it’s necessary. BR is helping me too. Even though I thought I’ve learned many of the lessons already through therapy and boundary-work, each of Natalie’s posts brings up an issue or a past memory that I had forgotten about or thought I was healed of but…and I start crying, not sure why.
Awh Rosie,
Work through those tears. Validate them. They are worth something. I promise. Feel those feelings! They are worth their weight in gold. Take care. I know facing all the things BR can bring up hurts. But it is worth it. And it gets easier/empowering.
Years ago, an ex-boyfriend who was a habitual overlapper, married an ex-friend who was also a habitual overlapper (her mom was one too, didn’t leave her pedophile husband until she found somebody to replace him with). Ex-boyfriend needed to return something that was mine; thus, we were talking on the phone and his wife was in the background pulling all sorts of loud attention-getting behavior as if Godzilla just walked in the room. Ex-boyfriend called her “stupid” and seemed embarrassed by her behavior unaware that I also noticed his abusive behavior toward his own wife.
Because I was still hurt and feeling betrayed, I inflated my ego to the size of Godzilla and thought that I, “Rosie” was the reason the wife was feeling so insecure. Really, though, her insecurity had nothing to do with me. Because their getting together was an overlapping, the foundation was insecure from the get-go. Really, if he started paying attention to the dog down the street, she’d be jealous of the dog.
Overlappers don’t engage in real relationships. Using somebody as a security blanket isn’t engaging that person in a relationship; it’s viewing that person as an “object of use”. Sick.
Thank you for this post Natalie! It is really pissed me off, why these men can do these horrible things and we cannot??? I am so fed up, I really want to hurt them, especially after reading all comments here:( Hate. Men.
Little Star,
Plenty of women do this, too!
Little Star,
please don’t hate men.
I for example love my dad to bits.
He is a man. He has flaws. He didn’t always do a good job in raising me. But his heart is golden. Many of us here don’t always have a good relationship with their father, mine portrays one that started out gentle, followed by very rough moments (alcoholic) and continued in a recovered, grown up and loving way. Not every man who makes mistakes in his life is an *sshole.
It’s not always easy to keep your faith in men in general when all you’ve experienced is betrayal, lies and incapability of having an honest tender relationship, but do try to look for, or remember a man in your life who gave that you. Surely there has to be some male example you can trust your image of men onto?
Aw no, little star, you’ve got that upside-down.
The people who behave like this? THEY AREN’T THE LUCKY ONES. Unless they change (which’ll be hard) they’re going to go through life never being satisfied, never being secure and never growing as people because they never face up to anything difficult.
Really, they’re just big wimps. You can hardly expect to handle life properly, with all of its attendant joys, challenges and miseries, if you can’t even handle a break-up.
I used to be this kind of wimp. I’m not now 🙂 Feels much better.
Little star
Unfortunately karma, fate, the laws of the universe do catch up with them.
My father is one. He has left a trail of damaged women and children behind him and now lives on the other side of the world. His health is failing, he battles with depression and alcoholism and has little money even though he was highly paid all his life. There is not one single solitary person where he lives who cares whether he lives or dies, other than his latest ex wife who is desperately trying to offload responsibility for him.
We who were discarded without a second thought are trying to do what we can from the other side of the planet.
I hope and believe that people can change otherwise the outlook for all of us is bleak. But if they fail to change and go on with their AC ways they do pay a heavy price for it.
The hide of them June! Seriously! Your ace there is that everyone at work knows exactly how lacking in moral fibre they are! Ugh. Good for you standing yourlground though. If it’s a good job that you love & worked hard to get why should you leave? If anyone feels uncomfortable let it be the other party. Too rediculous for words! Again, very sorry to hear you’ve had to go through this. No sense making there except glad yr shot of them both!
MRwriter I really enjoyed reading of your exp. What a lovely story. Thanks for sharing. T 🙂
Sometimes a relationship is not going well and you do think that you would be better with someone else. Fine. Take care of business first. End things, be honest, take time to heal so no ones your rebound. As a woman on the receiving end of a chronic overlapper, I can attest that it’s an extremely hurtful place to be, discarded like some sort of unwanted dog once you’ve served your purpose.
@Jennifer: yep, sometimes folks move/ switch jobs because they have burned their bridges with their crap behavior. Sometimes they move/switch jobs because they have been on the receiving end of crap behavior and options for meeting someone healthy are very few where they live. Unfortunately the folks that really ought to reflect on what they are doing and how it affects others do not; they just keep on destroying others.
Sam … “some do it as a self protection”. Uh, they ALL do it as a self protection. But when you are in a relationship, you are (supposed to be) accountable and concerning of someone else. Regardless of if you no longer desire to be. It is SELFISH to overlap … all about making sure you aren’t uncomfortable. It is uncomfortable to break up with someone. But grownups have to deal with those feelings, can handle them, and they act responsibly so they aren’t kicking themselves in remorse. If you can’t deal with all the feelings/accountability/ uncertainty of dating, don’t date.
Well I´m feeling a bit sad right now because it´s my birthday and my former supposedly good friends (who I was working with last year and overlapped me before making life impossible for me so I´d quit) haven´t taken the trouble to wish me well on facebook.
Neither has the exEUM (who put my photo in the social pages of a newspaper last year). He must be really offended because I told him You either want to be with me or you don´t. So he probably went after someone less demanding he had been grooming before.
I know I don´t ever want to have anything to do with all these people but somehow I expected some level of decency or goodwill in that they would at least acknowledge my birthday, as they´ve done for years. Is this some kind of declaration of war? As in, If you don´t approve of our behaviour, Lilia, we don´t want anything to do with you?
Perhaps I´m feeling bad because them making some gesture to maintain contact with me would mean that they were wrong and I was right – it would be a way to ask for forgiveness or something?
Lilia, it was my birthday a couple of weeks back and the exMM acknowledge it. I’ll admit I was secretly hoping he would remember. Now, I wish he hadn’t. It was enough for me to let my guard down and I let things slip back into the personal again. I can see now it was just a way in, an opportunity to manipulate my feelings and unfortunately, it worked for a while. You don’t need birthday wishes from people who have hurt you and will probably continue to hurt you. But you do need them from people who care. Happy Birthday, Lilia.
Not a declaration of war. Just so incredibly thoughtless, selfish and wrapped up in their own “I’m so great, my sh** doesn’t stink,” pathetic selves that it probably never even occurred to them to think that it was your birthday.
FLUSH, FLUSH and FLUSH again. You are so much better off without these weasels.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!! I hope this is the first day of the rest of your wonderful, joyous life!
Aw thanks Lilly and Pintura Bella!
And you´re right Lilly, actually the exEUM did send me a message on gmail and posted on my fb page. I just replied “thanks” but it didn´t make me feel better, I was just reminded of his existence after months of peacefully living in NC.
Flush indeed!
Long time Lurker, First Time Poster….I need yall input my beautiful BR community!
Little Background: I am 26, being in two relationships, 4-5 years each. First one, we were just childhood sweetheart teens who grew apart. Second one, great guy, never doubted his love, but he had so many family baggage (no kids, but his parents, siblings are really MESSED up), I would not mind, except he did not want to distance himself from the mess even though it was negatively affecting his health and as we started planning to settle down (he proposed)affecting my health as well. I just began my carreer and there are nights I would sleep only ONE hour because of his family members have gotten themselves into some f–ked up mess. Anyway, I felt bad for him, I know he was the one holding the family together and he felt some sort of responsibility. So we broke up six months ago. I did not put myself out to date for 4-5 months after to obviously heal from the break.
A month and a half ago, this AC I met randomly, asked me out. He was a decade older, ridiculously good looking a foot taller than me and just confident (I would soon find out what I thought was confidence, was him being a GRADE A dou**che)
I should have known how shallow he was because the first time he approached me he said “you are just my type, I love my women petite” but I just thought this was a man who knew what he wanted.
Date one – he takes me to a Japanese restaurant, paid for the date, asked me questions etc but what kept standing out to me was he kept commenting about how beautiful he found me and my body. I was like “ummm okay”, I get attention but not THIS intense. I just shrugged it off.
Date two – We go out for dinner again, he tells me AGAIN about how pretty I am, and then comments that I should wear tighter clothes (I met him right after work, so i had on conservative coporate gear)…this was when little clinking sounds of bell started going off but boy was he good looking, so I ignored the rings
Date three – we go to some park thing, I notice he is talking mostly about himself and checking out girl, blatantly, almost creepily, as we walked by, I was never one to feel insecure EVER, none of my past BF EVER made me feel insecure so now I am noticing this new emotion/feeling and I am like okay something aint right. I start distancing myself, I should have stuck to my gut
Date four: he takes me out to celebrate a monumental carreer moment that week, very nice sushi restaurant, I drink too much sake (it was a very exciting moment) and of course end up in his place. You guessed it, we had sex. Mind you this is the first guy I am “dating” since my split, so even though I am younger, due to being in two LTRs I was naive about the current dating climate. The next day, he cooked me breakfast, we went on a stroll and I went home. I did not hear from him the rest of the day, I myself did not text him.
The next day I sent him a text saying “Hey Baby!” Mind you we started calling ourselves with pet nick names playfully since the first date. He replied in a somewhat monotone and said “Hi (Insert my Name Here)”. I was like, oookay then, trying to figure out what is going on. I did not text him anything for the rest of the day. The next day I heard nothing until late that night (I think he was expecting that I text/call him). When he saw that I was pulling away he started texting/blowing up my phone. HOT/COLD indeed.
Then I got the “come over and give me some love”, I called him out on it immediately and he was like “why are you being emotional, this is what dating is”. lol I was done. He has since called and texted me, but I have not responded. So I need your guy’s opinion, I am not sure if I am being “too emotional” or this guy is an AC.
Oh he is also a future faker, Told me he was going to take me to meet his parents/friends for a xmas dinner then after one night of staying over told me he had to travel to Brazil but it was in the middle of a heated conversation so I am guessing he forgot to future fake. Another thing that shows just how ridiculously shallow he is was that I was talking about one of my 33 year old cousin, whose an amazing girl and he was like “I would not even LOOK at anyone over 30″…he is 36-37. I know it has been a short time but I wish I just followed by instinct and just cut it off. smh
Ewww. Flush immediately.
Fmi – Your story sounds eerily like mine which is why I ended up finding BR. The AC I had the misfortune to meet last year future faked me to the hilt, told me he wanted me to meet his family and friends (I never did)took me to a lovely Japanese restaurant and on date 3 we went for a night out in the City and of course drank a little too much and ended up back at his place, and he was calling me babe/baby from day one. He also used a trip to Brazil as part of his plan to fade me out. Oh and he was extremely good looking! This guy swept me off my feet then dropped me like a hot potato after dating for about 2 months. However, more to the point it seems like he has got what he wanted and now wants to make an exit. I think you should ask him straight out what he his looking for, is it long term, friendship, short term? Everything has happened so fast and he has been showering you with compliments and nice meals, this makes it difficult to know what the hell is going on. I wish I had followed my instinct!
@ Stephanie, we do have a similar situation! I asked him straight up and he was like “I want you to be my girlfriend, Chill Out!!!” which was what he tied to be being too emotional. Like I said, it was just a little over a month and since I am new to the dating climate I was not sure if calling him out on trying to put me in a fck buddy category was too soon. Like I am just so shocked that someone that old will be into these kinds of games…but obviously after reading so many of the posts here i now know Assclownry has no age limit. smh
@FMI: For what it’s worth, I do believe in global warming, but I do NOT believe in any kind of “dating climate change”. Guys like that have always been around (at least since the “sexual revolution” of the 1960s I guess). I’ve been fed similar BS 10 years ago when I was in my mid-twenties, and I know 60 year old guys who have ALWAYS had that attitude towards women.
Don’t use a purported “change in dating climate” as an excuse to put up with disrespectful treatment. There is no such change.
Oh no, please do not ask him. It’s quite clear what this guy wants.
Go NC!!!
Following,
Sorry to say this, but this guy was only out for sex.
When you mentioned the comment made about your body on the first date, I knew this dude was not up for anything permanent. If a man is respectful and wants to seriously date a woman, he will not make these types of comments.
If something doesn’t feel right, it usually isn’t. Next time, follow your gut and dump after the first date. BTW, he is a waste if time!!!!!
Hi FMI,
although I would have the energy right now to reply to you on various things you mentioned about your dates with this man, (as I’m sure others will be more concise in commenting to you about this or to be more precise, I’m a bit insecure of how I’m coming off in english so I try to stick to what I see myself commenting clearly about)
I’d like to take you on a very short ride.
The kind of ride you took yourself with this man.
You’re young (yes!) and you had your first *fling* with a definite AC.
He was clearly after the physical aspect and he is trying to maintain a physical realtionship with, one that is clearly casual but he masks it up with what he thinks women want to hear.
The fact that he is handsome is not something he earned through life or experience, he is merely exploiting that, because like you say so yourself throughout your comment, you don’t even like him AT ALL.
I understand the wanting to date part, boy I do to, and please enjoy yourself while doing so, there is nothing wrong with that. But don’t try to put meaning into something you clearly don’t want to be putting meaning into.
Even if this would last longer than it does right now, you don’t like him.
You are asking if he is an AC? I think he is textbook AC. I think it’s not your inability to read him (because you are questioning your own gut feeling), it seems to me to be the reality of him. After what you described, I might want to watch him as he’s handsome, but boy I wouldn’t want to spend time with him.
D’you know what, fmi?
Quite aside from the fact that the guy is clearly a big massive creep, your post seems to show that you don’t particularly like or respect him that much ANYWAY. You think he’s a total slimeball and he was really making you feel uncomfortable from very early on.
Frankly, although I don’t think that you were too emotional, I think that ANY emotion (or time or effort) spent on this dude is way way too much. Good-looking or not, YOU didn’t like HIM and you thought he was a creep. So dance as you walk away and stop fretting – you aren’t stuck with a slimeball, whoop!
Yoghurt and FHS, perhaps I got lost in translation. I did find that him checking out other girls blatantly and commenting non stop about my body creeped me out and his comment about him not dating anyone over 30 made me see him as a DOUCHE, but there are parts of him I like. He is quite charming, funny (aren’t they all?) I have seem how he talks to his mom (on the phone) and he has two dogs who he adores….I love his dogs too! Anyway I hear you guys loud and clear but wanted to clear it up. It is not that I do not like him, it is more that there are AC traits I see in him that I do not like and find downright unnerving. So I have another question? How do I let him know that I am not into this whole thing anymore? I have never had to go NC after such a short period? do I send a text? email? give the reasons why? or do i just say “sorry this isn’t working out”?
P.P.S. update* So after pretty much ignoring his texts and calls after the whole “calling out” incident after the “come over and give me some some love” comment, he just called and was like “I want to take you out on a date”…these Ac’s man, they know just what to say to have us women second guessing ourselves don’t they? smh….anywho off to the movies and look forward to reading your replies.
I personally quite like the idea of sending something like “Thanks for the outings but I’m not interested. Good luck for the future but please don’t contact me any more”. I think that at this stage it’s polite and sensible to send some sort of official cut-off but I agree that you don’t owe him anything.
I can see what you’re saying – I’m sure that if I was in your position I’d be thinking “ooo, but he’s so nice in some ways…” (it’s so easy when it’s other people!) BUT I think it’s about headline data. His manky moral attitude towards relationships might not seem like the most important thing now, but it’ll still be there when his mum has died, he’s too arthritic to own dogs and all his teeth have fallen out.
(Unless he changes it. Which he won’t while it gets him results).
In short, if you don’t like his attitude towards women then, as a woman, you don’t like HIM… no matter how tasteful the gift-wrap.
Thanks! I’ve been a bit of a cross-patchy ranter – on here and in rl – recently, so that was lovely to read! 🙂
You can say it in person, send a text, an email, a letter, smoke signals, anything you like because you’re not in a relationship and you don’t owe him an explanation.
You do have to mean it and be firm though.
I agree about the comments about your body. He sees you as a collection of body parts, not really as a person with their own thoughts and feelings. Remember that if he hassles you (and he likely will) and cut him off.
Sorry for murdering the English language “VHS” and Yoghurt. Trying to rush to get ready for the movies with some of my girls.
P.S. Yoghurt, I have read a lot of your posts and I love your insight.
Stick to no contact this guy has shown you who he is and he will not change do not waste years on a guy like this, take it from who tried for 5 years it is not worth it.
You responding to him in anyway will result in him blowing cold again because you have stroked his ego.
STAY AWAY cannot emphasise that enough.
FLUSH! Sounds like the ONLY thing this sex-seeking clown has going for him is that he’s good looking. Something HE didn’t create or earn…accident of genetics.
Write him off, don’t give him a second thought. The thing to take away from this is: ALWAYS trust your gut! It’s never wrong.
Follow, given what you’ve said, observed, and experienced, I’d suggest following your instinct. You can jog on even though you had sex with him. You aren’t married, engaged, or have any other ties with this guy other than sex. If you are getting the heebie jeebie’s, blowing hot/cold, it’s probably not going to get better. BTW, dating for some folks means “come over and give me some love”. Read Natalie’s posts on the “Justifying Zone”. Just because you had sex, doesn’t mean you have to spend the rest of your twenties trying to justify it. Count it as experience and contemplate whether having sex before you know the guy is the way to go.
In ten years, this guy will be 46-47 and will probably look a little different! He’ll have to look at ladies over 30 then.
Omg You ladies are nothing short of amazing! Thanks for all the advice and input. Taken all to heart and going NC, I know he will try to contact me and he is in a profession where I am scared he can track my phone via my phone number and find me..lol maybe I am just paranoid but the only reason I picked up his phone last time (after ignoring his messages) is because I thought I saw his car across from where I was waiting for my transit..but I digress…DEFINITELY NOT ENTERTAINING THIS AC anymore.
I have the policy that I won’t date separated men as you never know you could be listed in a divorce! They are also emotional wrecks. Some of you may remember me telling the tales of the 4 men I’ve met since my marriage broke down. I am now divorced but it is just a year and I’ve been on my own for 2 years. Anyway the MM (married marauder) that pursued me for 20 years and got blown out 5 times yes really, got a bloody nose big style. His business recently folded and he has debts of millions of pounds due to his gold digging wife. I escaped that bullet as he was trying to overlap with me with the following events.
One of his investors sells out so the business is taken over but he still has his stake which he eventually loses. He survives a life threatening event and then realises on his death bed how much I mean to him (one time in band camp). Declares undying love then disappears so gets blown out as I wasn’t going there with him. Not long after he makes his declaration his business goes into administration and I reckon his marriage is next. But he will be bankrupt. I don’t do pity parties where men are concerned nor am I a rescue service financially or emotionally. I knew that even if he left his wife he would be an emotional wreck. Anyway he knows that I found out his business collapsed as I sent him a text (couldn’t resist that). I reckon he went off radar because he knew he was rumbled and that I wasn’t a pushover. What the sequence of events tells me is that he was looking at me as a lifeboat and is just a total shit bag. I hope his marriage fails so he knows what it is like as he tried to manipulate me at my low times under the umbrella of “friendship” when mine failed. If he ends up single he will be a serial overlapper as I know that he had 11 sexual partners in 3 years before he met his wife! They actually deserve each other and boy have I learned a lot from his behaviour in a positive way. Thank goodness I never got involved with him. He is now reaping what he sowed as he allowed the debts to accumulate. His wife isn’t likely to stay as her lifestyle is too important as she wasn’t coping after he recovered from his near death event when he wasn’t earning and her lifestyle was turned upside down. I would never trust him if he was single. What goes around comes around.
First, I would like to thank you from the bottom of my heart for all your words of wisdom. I have been reading your posts for several mths. now & I have to say what an eye opener after spending 7 yrs. with questions of is my ex just an alcoholic,EU,AC,narcissist or all of the above. He ticked several boxes in each. I know I have to come to the realization that he was what he was, he did what he did & I accepted all of it. There is nothing I can do now to change what is but, I sure do need to change myself which is probably the hardest thing I’ve had to face thus far. I have been living with the pain, betrayal,lonliness, destroyed self-esteem, feelings of what was real or not craziness & most recently anger for over 2 yrs. since our final breakup.
This post has been one of most profound as my ex was a major overlapper & I’m embarassed to say, more than once during our 7 yrs. together. When I first met him he was recently seperated (1st Red Flag)from a 14 yr. marriage. I was assured by mutual friends of what a great guy he was & that their marriage had been an abusive one. Also,that my ex was the one who suffered by the hands of his wife. From then on he quickly fast forwarded me & future faked me though, I had no clue at the time.He quickly introduced me to his family & friends & they embraced me- they all were so elated that I had come into his life telling me he deserved someone who really loved & cared for him. Needless, to say I fell head over heals with him. I felt sorry for what he had gone through (what he made me believe) & thought I was going to fix things & show him what having a loving relationship was like.
Although, he drank continuously (2nd Red Flag) he was never physically abusive to me but, was very self-absorbed, selfish at times & emotionally distant…things were always on his terms after the first few mths. He constantly showered me with lovely & expensive gifts, told me he loved me several times a day & talked about our future continuously. All through that I still felt like something was missing..he was emotionally detached & sex had just about ceased (due to his drinking I’m sure). Four yrs. later we have a huge fight ending in me throwing him out. He immediately gets involved with a married woman who I find out later he had been messing with while still with me. That lasts for 4 mths. & she leaves her husband for someone else. 4 mths. after that my ex is back on my door step & pours the same bs to me he did in the very beginning. It took a while but, I eventually gave in to him believing he had changed & really was sorry for what he did. Yes, what a fool but, I loved him. Within the yr. we become engaged & move to a home out in the country although, I still kept my apt. Things were great for awhile but,then issues of various kinds started to seep back into the picture. We started to fight alot instead of discussing things in a civilized manner, his drinking increased & my feelings of anxiety began to creep in again. Two yrs.later after a huge fight he announces that he is not happy & wants to end the relationship. I was devestated to say the least. At this point I had invested more than just my love into our relationship planning on our marriage & setting up our house. Come to find out, he once again had someone waiting in the wings. Someone who made more money than I did. She knew nothing of me but, it didn’t matter because she stayed with him even though, she knew he had been dishonest with her, also. He becomes engaged to her 2mths. later but, that relationship ends within the yr. All during the time with her I remained NC even though he continued in all that time to drive by my house. I still remain NC after hearing of their break even though, he starts to call me again which I ignored. Then I hear a few mths. later he is moving someone in to what was supposed to be our home & 2 mths. later marries her. This woman is a drinker like him & obviously desperate to get married. She calls me 1 mth. after dating him to tell me to leave him alone & that they were getting married. I was dumbfounded..told her I hadn’t spoken to him in 2yrs. & good luck. Not sure why she felt the need to call me.
Anyways, although I know he was a waste of my time I still have moments of regret, feelings of love for the person I thought he was & feelings of why her & not me but, I am working hard on that & thanks to you Natalie, I’m starting to realize that I really wasn’t crazy.
I dated an overlapper once for about 10 months. Sure enough I saw the signs, but he ended up dating her next. Because he’s still in my circle of friends, I have now seen him do the same cycle exactly 5 times. Every single one has been the ONE. He chooses the same physical type, all nice women, but before he breaks up with someone he will have another lined up. He accepts no responsibility for the breakups, it’s always them. The sad part is, everyone around him knows this now. So absolutely right, these people don’t change or grow because they are too busy working on the next relationship to find out why they have a pattern, why it isn’t working or who they really are and what they want. I actually pity both him and the poor women who get suckered in. But very glad he isn’t with me anymore 🙂
If your partner is overlapping, there’s a very strong chance that he/she may be a malignant narcissist. Please take some time to read up on the warning signs of narcissism and the way they think. The narcissist ALWAYS has one or more sources of “supply” on tap, waiting in the wings, or sometimes carries on with several people at the same time. It’s all about getting THEIR needs met, not yours.
Even if your relationship has ended, it’s a good idea to learn about narcissistic behaviors and compare your ex to the checklist. If you find that you were involved with a narcissist, at least now you’ll know what warning signs to look for so you don’t do it again!
Lori,
What a great post. It didn’t even occur to me to relate the two. It makes sense. Thank you!
Lori,
Yep! I write and educate about psychopaths. I do believe that narcissism is their CORE trait. It’s unfortunate that many are educated only AFTER the fact, but it’s better late then never.
I think even though it’s really important to understand the disorders in order to define and clarify the characteristics, it’s even better to be a healthier person, to have boundaries and values. Believe it or not, there are healthy people out there who are able to put a disorder out to pasture quickly, even if they don’t know what to “call” them and their behavior. A disorder SCREAMS unhealthy from the very beginning. But if we are at a deficit, we will not see it.
Awareness, building boundaries, self confidence and adhering to our values, means a disorder cannot penetrate.
They are the ULTIMATE boundary violators and they do it from the very beginning of a relationshit
Where’d that Sam guy go? Can’t see his post anymore to reply.
I wanted to tell him: Irrespective of behavior being conscious or unconscious we are still responsible for our behaviors each in every day in each and every moment/second irrespective of how difficult it may be.
I was an “overlapper”. Having been raised in a pathological home, I ran from my fears and feelings. I went from first boyfriend, to ex husband psychopath to an affair with last ex psychopath. I say WAS because I have implemented MANY changes to my life. I have been single for nearly two years. Much of those two years have been spent purging my inner demons and “shady” like behavior to get to the bottom of what amounted to an extraordinary amount of childhood sexual abuse and trauma.
I consider it a miracle to have this awareness now. It’s true that many overlappers are assclowns and/or EUM’s. What really matter is do they, in the end, have the ability for change. Most do not. But some like me, do. Maybe some of us here were overlappers too, but not for the same reasons as those who are without empathy or conscience.
I’m choosing now, to be kind to myself and to others who are also capable of change.
K,
Thanks for the blog link. Very helpful indeed!
Crumbs, I’m watching my 23 yro daughter go through a bad break up with the bf and she is turning to another guy. She is currently in the yo-yo phase with the bf, trying to resurrect their relationship. He keeps leading her on and then shutting her down. She keeps getting dressed up to go out with the bf and then I keep getting the call to come pick her up all tear stained and demoralized. Recently, she revealed to me that in August, she was pregnant and had an abortion. So rather than dealing with the shame/pain/hurt/disappointment of the abortion and subsequent break up (because he wasn’t empathizing with her), she has jumped at the first next guy who seems to be giving her attention. Damn. She’s rebounding, overlapping, and trying to avoid a ton of stuff. I’m sitting on the sidelines watching her rebound, overlap, and avoid her pain. Wow folks, I’m not sure what it more difficult, going through it or watching it and not being able to rescue her. She is sooo not conscious of what she is doing. She is confused as hell and in a ton of pain. I’m doing the “being there for her at every turn”.
If this new guy is taking advantage of her, he may turn up missing a body part. But who is overlapping whom? Arrgh…parenthood. Cherish every moment before they can drive!
Yoghurt, I read everything you write with such great admiration. You are one awesome, amazing, incredible person. I want you to know, I think of you often as I do everyone on this wonderful site.
Now I just have to find a way to turn my daughter on to BR.
@runner: Please don’t try too hard to “make her see”. Make your point, but don’t worry too much whether she “gets” its or not. I can imagine how difficult this is if it’s your own child (even if I don’t have kids), but still she’s an adult. I think you should focus on yourself and YOUR healing instead. Believe it or not, but your example and your successful healing might help her more than anything else.
Aw runnergirl… I have to admit that you’d probably find me very uninspiring in real life right now, as I have a streaming cold and am feeling dreadful in body, mind and spirit… but reading your comment has just cheered me right up 🙂 And I think that you’re great too!
Your poor daughter – and poor you. That sounds awful – wish I knew what to suggest. It’s great that she’s felt able to tell you about the abortion and I wouldn’t underestimate how much your support is helping her, though, or how grateful she’ll be for it when she looks back on this time in her life.
You could do with being able to take her away for a few weeks to somewhere with absolutely no phone or email contact, where there’s nothing to do but think, walk, cry and sit in the sun. Still, as nice an idea as it is, I appreciate that it isn’t exactly doable 🙁
Runner, You sound like a wonderful Mom. Your daughter is so lucky to have you. I don’t have answers for you, but can only say I understand how hard it is to watch our children fall into the same holes or watch as they run towards barbed wire. My son is 26 and feels compelled to fall into he same hole over and over. When he was 6 I could scoop him up before he fell, but he makes his own choices now. I try to talk to him, and sometimes he hears, sometimes he doesn’t. I hurt for him and want to shake him at the same time. I also feel guilt that possibly my fumbles in life taught him some unhealthy habits. I am famous for saying, learn from my mistakes Son. Don’t do what I did. See, I did that and it didn’t work out. He sees, he understands, but as we know all to well, some times we put ourselves in a place we don’t like. At least I am here for him, to support and help. I had no one to tell me how to recognize holes in front of me. We can only be there, tell them the hard truths sometimes but let them know we love them. I have hope that it is collecting inside his head and will one day form a very nice epiphany. Hugs to you and your daughter.
runnergirl… I know where you are coming from. My daughter is 26yrs old.
Recovering addict, praise the lord for that, has 2 children w/different fathers and is a fabulous mother. Her choices in men remind me of myself at her age. Ugghh. Its frustrating at times and luckily we have a great relationship & I try to talk to her as much as I can about my struggles & give advise although most of the time its not acted upon by her. She does get it, but seems stuck in a rut both financially & emotionally. Its hard to watch our children struggle but there is only so much you can do.. Beyond frustrating at times. And she was there for me when the tears are streaming down my face thru all the AC stuff.. She is a blessing to me 🙂
Runner,
(((Hugs)))
runnergirl, it must be awful to watch your daughter go through this. however, i also think our awakening is often of the rude variety for a reason. she’s lucky you to have you. she’ll be on BR when she’s ready for it. ((hugs))
Thank you ladies. It’s tough to watch your own kid go through the pain of young adulthood. Yeah Selkie, it is like watching them fall in the same hole or run into barbed wire. I could scoop her up and rescue her when she was little too. Like you all say, now I guess is all I can do is be there for her. In Nat’s self-esteem course (perfectly timed), I had to work through some major issues with regards to blaming myself for my daughter’s mistakes after working through blaming myself for my parents mistakes on top of blaming myself for my mistakes. I didn’t realize how much blame and shame I was wallowing in. Talk about the sandwich generation or to be on topic, the overlapping generation!
Yoghurt, it may be time to get away. We used to travel before she went away to school. Thank you. That is a great idea.
Watching her fill the white space has been difficult. Watching her try to get him back has been painful. Then watching her fill the white space with new guy has been worse.
Talk about overlapping! My ex who promised me the world, said I was his soul mate, that our love was made in heaven, that he loved me and that he only needed me, did exactly what Natalie wrote- openned negotiations with his ex behind my back and for no reason whatsoever. We had a very peaceful relationship and had never had a disagreement or anything that would justify he calling his ex in another town and fetching her in the bus station and completely disappearing from my life without a word till I tracked him through his neighbour and he just said he had come back to his ex.
It seems that after all that loving I didnt even deserve an explanation,the consideration of a phone call, nothing. If I had not phoned him I believe that I would never had heard from him again.
Ours was a very loving relationship, very caring, very intimate, or so I thought, till he showed his true overlapping face and just went after the past.
I really loved reading this because it revealed just how i was overlapped myself and did not know i was being overlapped. Me and he had a really great relationship, went everywhere together and he said he was ‘very happy’. However, i found out quite by chance he had overlapped me for 14 months with a work colleague who i eventually saw, and which has helped me considerably to get over and out of the relationship for good.
There is absolutely no chance of me entering into any sort of conversation/meeting up with this man again. She is welcome to him as i feel she will eventually feel what i did when he decides to overlap her, and he surely will as apparently that is how he operates. He is a narcissist which i did not know at the time of the relationship but having read up on these type of people. i feel even though it has been a long haul to recover i know i am happy without him in my life, and because i do now know how these types operate i will not be taken in again by their shady behaviour.
@Sam
I think that’s a poor excuse. You say it was unintentional and that u don’t handle breakups very well so how is that justify saying that you leave the relationship only to overlap with someone else. You should really seek help because you are only damaging so many women when you should probably not even be dating at all and taking the time to see what the problems are within and what you need to work on to fix them. There are so many of us on this site that are sharing our stories about men like you. You have to have some serious issues if you are participating in behavior like this. Seek a therapist and get some help.
I wont enter into all the ‘Sam’ frey beyond this:
It is true that people can have unconcious patterns of behaviour they are unaware of
One’s penis (or vagina) does NOT without ‘purpose’, connect with another penis or vagina however. Of course there is a purpose to this behaviour, which is to have sexual relations in this case, to line up the next overlap.
Sam notes feeling ‘terrible’ about this however. Although this is not a declaration of intent to change (my ex AC for example stated he similarly felt ‘terrible’ about many of his AC behaviours, but continued nonetheless to engage in them, TOTALLY unabated lol), we might at least hope that whatever drew Sam to BR at some point triggers a committment for Sam’s sake & the sake of any future parties.
We might also hypothesise (for that is ALL it is), that Sam has some work to do, but haven’t we all, & we also need to remember, that we all started somewhere. I hope that’s a fair & balanced assessment.
T 🙂
Lilly, if you were dealing with someone with NPD, knowing that critical piece of info can be the turning point in your own healing. I was at a COMPLETE LOSS to understand WTF I had found myself caught up in, & why the trauma bonding was so difficult to break until I found this GIANT key which was the missing piece of the puzzle for me. Once I was armed that KNOWLEDGE (& a stack of surrounding info) I WAS FREE because I finally knew the beast with which I was wrestling. So YES, it makes ALL the difference to know this information. Good for you! Hugs! Teach x
Teachable, “…..I finally knew the beast with which I was wrestling”. The more I read and compare my experience with others the more I’m convinced I’m dealing with a narcissist. It all fits, the manipulation, the cruelty, lack of empathy, etc, etc. Informing myself about the psychodynamics of N means that I can learn how to deal with him and protect myself (until I can finally break away and I’m working on that). It also means that I can start working on why I allowed myself to be a ‘target’ in the first place. I read somewhere that they don’t target ‘weak’ people because they a looking to feed their ego which is a relief! I like to think of myself as a strong, capable person. At least I was before he came along and this means I can be again. Thanks, Teach. Hugs right back,x.
@Lilly: “Informing myself about the psychodynamics of N means that I can learn how to deal with him and protect myself (until I can finally break away and I’m working on that)”
Nope. Someone being a narcissist means abort mission IMMEDIATELY. Get out now!
You can’t “protect yourself” while you’re with them. Many of us (especially the ones with a narcissistic parent) have ended up in utter misery while trying that. If he’s a narc, OPT OUT.
And btw, they “target” everyone, weak or strong. The only difference is how people respond to them.
I agree with EllyB. He can’t target you if you’re not there.
Wow. When I met my last girlfriend two years ago, she was at the end of a relationship. But she didn’t actually tell me that until our second outing. A few weeks later she broke up with him and let me know. I tried to let her take it slow; still we were dating within two months.
A year later when she broke up with me, I was shocked to eventually find out she had started up immediately with a coworker. I hear they were married a couple weeks ago, while I’m single and still only 98% over it.
Sure sounds like a serial overlapper. But if I were to show her this article, which seems to describe her perfectly (not that I speak to her anymore), she’d probably say what she said at the breakup: She had to move on quickly because she’s “looking for someone to spend her life with.”
Good for you Lilly. Yes, they target kind, loving women who have a strong sense of decency. Also high achievers so they can tear us down, afterwards, bit by painful bit! It is a boost to his ego to think that he can land such a great catch as us! He knows all along though that he is not anywhere near on our level. He may even make comments to this effect in the early days & we will scratch our heads, & wonder what he is talking about, before replying with encouraging words trying to boost his non existant self esteem (which we will mistakenly see as merely a lack of self confidence).
Does this mean we that should stop being any of the fine qualities attracted him to us? Hell no! What it does mean is that we can more FINELY TUNE our eyes & ears next time for the signs of the narrcissist, because now we know WHAT TO LOOK FOR. I don’t have to tell you how deadly his sting is, for you lived it, as too have I, & many of us @ BR. And now you are on well on your way to healing. Big hugs! Xxx
yes, with a narc, the better he thinks you are, the more value he will place on the “supply” he gets from you. That is why at the start you go through the idealization stage where they seem to put you on a pedestal and worship you. Next (when he knows you are hooked) comes the devalue stage where they will withdraw physically, sexually or emotionally. Or all three. The nasty comments will start. Or the “big freeze” or the “I’m just not feeling it/don’t know what I want.” Finally you will either be discarded, or your self esteem will hit such a low that your “real/old self” will jump in and rescue you before he destroys you, and you will dump him. Then, when you least expect it, he will decide he is low on new supply/admiration, and will call you up, and expect you to just slot in where you left off. He may even try to be “that guy from the beginning” for a few days/weeks, cos he know that works. Then, when you are hooked again, the devaluing will start again. Some women have spent/wasted YEARS of their lives in this cycle.
PS And Lilly, you ARE a strong & capable woman. Always know & remember that, come what may. Xx
My husband targeted his next victim while I was away on holiday with my children.
She was already on the scene when I came back.
He then walked out on me on My Birthday.
They have to have another woman set-up before they leave.
Just shows what weak, horrible men they are.
Hey Yoghurt (I enjoy reading yr posts btw, thanku for sharing with us :)).
Just a quick note on something I picked up on:
Psychopaths & ppl with NPD (Narrcissistic Personality Disorder) do share the common trait of coming across as verying charming but this is false charm underpinned by a lack of empathy & a host of other very toxic behaviours.
Being able to identify a perp of abuse or ex or current partner as having traits of these disorders ought not be seen as any sort of ‘kudos’ as it’s quite the opposite. At worst, your consumate psychopath is a serial killer! A lesser one, or narrcissicist in top form, will clear out your bank accounts, those of your elderly frail parents too & leave you penniless all while doing the same thing to numerous other women similtaneously!
Naming someone as suffering these conditions isn’t ‘cool’ in any way, shape or form. Quite the opposite! It should strike terror & dread into the heart of anyone unfortunate enough to have fallen within their highly manipulative & life destrying web! The moment I suspect anyone of these conditions I can assure you I don’t don’t think, ‘cool’ or ‘charming’. I think, RUN FOR MY LIFE, as I know well, that mine, may very well be in danger! It’s kinda like saying saying someone has a dreadful anti social DISEASE that is going to HARM you! Because that is what psychopathy & NPD are – incurable personality disorders. People with these disorders will literally distroy all they leave in their wake! Ugh!
I just wanted to mention that because, narrcissism, is in fact as far from ‘charming’ as one can possibly get!!!!
T 🙂
I disagree with EllyB & maintain that the research suggests that narrcissicists tend to target strong, successful, high achievers, with good values in terms of kindness, generosity, & having a social conscience etc, (generally speaking, which isn’t to say there aren’t exceptions, I.e. it is ‘beneath’ a true narrcissist to see themselves with a low achiever), however, I agree STRONGLY that the only sane option with a narrcissist is to OPT OUT; the sooner the better.
Staying with a narrcissist is highly detrimental to all areas of ones life, especially your health.
Hi everyone, help please.
Could anyone recommend a good read on narcissism? There is so much on the web, don`t know where to start and what I looked at refers mostly to clinical/extreme characteristics while my narc experience, while certainly there was I think of a more “narcisstically inclined “, subtle but still deadly variety. Or possibly since I grew up with it I register some of the issues as normal. I`d like to sort my narc/father thing in my head a bit more since prospect of family time at Christmas is starting to make me anxious. Thanks in advance.
Sushi, I’m afraid I don’t know very much about narcissism yet, but Susan Forward has written a book called ‘Toxic Parents:Overcoming Their Hurtful Legacy and Reclaiming Your Life’ which might be useful to you. I’ve read a couple of her books and found them to be really helpful. I hope the holidays go well for you.
Thank you very much Lilly, I`ll try that.
@Sushi
There is a book called ‘The psycopath next door’ which is quite good and there are extracts of the book online if you search. I wanted to find anything which related to his behaviour and like you, i searched the net and found quite a lot about NPD and psycopathic behaviour. There are reams of information to be found if you search. There are also quite a few sites with forums where people can tell their own experiences with having been in relationships with NPD people.
@ Teachable and Victorious
Thank you so much for your postings you do not know how you have helped me. I was wondering why it has taken me so long to get over this man, he almost sent me over the edge i kid you not when looking back. But your comments have endorsed my observations after we split that NO i was not going mad, i was in the presence of a full blown NARCISSIST and i NEVER, EVER want to meet anyone like him again. These people are aliens, a race apart and evil personified. How can someone do this to another, and why do they get a kick out of bringing someone down after putting them on a pedestal. They truly are sick individuals and best left alone.