A guy was telling me a story recently about how he’d met a great woman who he could have had a great relationship with but it didn’t work out because basically she wasn’t over her ex. This is a common occurrence and it is very much wrong time, wrong place, no opening. It’s like being told that you’ve got a job and then arriving to start only to discover that even though the other person has left, your boss is keeping their spot open but somehow expects you to stick around and feel valued.
Does not being over your ex make you a ‘bad’ person? In fact, does a relationship not working out and you not always behaving in the most conducive ways for a relationship make you a ‘bad’ person? NO of course not, but then it’s not about good versus bad.
A circumstance is a fact or condition connected with or relevant to an event or action. These same facts or conditions in turn cause something to happen and it tends not to be a good thing. [source Oxford Dictionary]
The facts of the situation was that this woman wasn’t over her ex – it came to light that she’d been drunk dialling and arguing with him about what he’d put on Facebook and attempting to ‘win’ him back…by making him jealous. What you would then have to wonder is did these circumstances cause her to do what she did?
This guy is insistent that it’s circumstance that caused her to be dismissive, disrespectful and lacking conscientiousness.
You know, I can buy that argument and in fact most people can, because finding plausible reasons and yes excuses for why someone isn’t able to even be courteous, is very much standard fare in dating and relationships. We love to give the benefit of the doubt and ‘see the best’, even if that benefit has to be given a thousand times over. We say that they’re shy, tired, overworked, forgetful, preoccupied, needed by so many people because they’re so popular/helpful/fantastic, in a bad place, needing some more patience, needing some more time, have childhood issues, have adult issues, and the list goes on.
It is true that circumstances can affect how someone behaves in dating and relationships but, and it is a big but, actions, certainly consistent actions over time or the sum of various actions put together, or even flat out unacceptable code red behaviour such as being abusive, is highly indicative of the fact that whether it’s character or circumstance, you need to address your presence in the situation.
Really, getting into Columbo mode and trying to assess whether it’s character or circumstance is splitting hairs and aside from the point – whichever one it is, you’re being compromised.
Sometimes people are truly not in a very good place and can barely see their way to taking care of themselves never mind somebody else. We all handle things differently and some of us are severely impacted by rejection, heartbreak, or stress. This is real, but, and yes it is a big but again, it’s not an acceptable reason for you to put yourself in the front line of fire. You can empathise with their position, but in empathising and recognising their situation, you may have to do what they can’t do for themselves and put an end to this situation for both yours and their sake.
You don’t need to ‘judge’ them – just judge the situation even if it means judging you out of it for your own self-preservation.
It can be tempting to stick around because you want to be ‘sympathetic’ or you think it’s what empathy looks like, but you’re just acting like a shield that prevents them from feeling their feelings, seeing things as they are, and handling their situation. You end up being an emotional airbag. It can also be tempting to stick around because you hope that circumstances will change and that the situation will pass – one day you wake up and realise that you’ve been involved in one big circumstantially affected relationship.
And the truth is, life has it’s ups and downs. It’s not like we’re all aiming to have relationships that never have bumps and tough times in them, but if these are not being navigated together and you in fact end up being left on the outside of a relationship while playing doormat, or feeling that you’re not being treated with love, care, trust, and respect, or that you’re not ‘together’ in spite of your understanding and support, that’s a ‘circumstance’ that cannot continue.
I hear too many stories of people supporting people who they feel have a ‘circumstance’ and then when their own circumstance rolls around, like being in ill health, being made redundant, a bereavement, the very people who they expected reciprocal support from are nowhere to be found or making vague excuses. That’s why I warned of the perils of over-giving – we are very understanding of circumstance because we hope that further down the line they’ll do the same or give you the love back that you want.
We all have circumstances – this should never mean that you sell yourself short while you place a higher value on someone. More importantly, when you keep talking about ‘circumstances’, it’s at the very best a code amber alert to stop, look, and listen or if there are a lot of ‘circumstances’, it’s a code red alert that you’re being too understanding, making too many excuses, and that you’re ignoring yourself, and that’s never a good circumstance to be in, but at least you can put an end to it, which is better than relying on controlling the uncontrollable and hoping for the wind to change.
The theme of this post really hits home for me right now. After a casual encounter with this man I really thought I hit it off with, I texted the next morning and received some inexplicably rude harsh texts from him. I started rationalizing his behavior thinking he must be stressed out from work, I am being too clingy, etc. But whether I was being clingy or not doesn’t justify the extent to which he rudely insulted me, called me names, acting as if the previous interaction wasn’t important and that I wasn’t important to him at all, even though he acted so differently before. It’s the usual tale, of course, but it was so much more ruder and disgusting than I had ever expected from any self-respecting human being. Depersonalization of these types of events really helps. Stepping back, recognizing that I had these red flags before but I chose not to follow through because I wanted to justify this abusive behavior, because the attraction/chemistry had been so strong, and of course because the hot/cold pattern really appealed to my familiarity with domestic abuse in my own home. It felt familiar and I was playing the victim like my mother again, pretending that if I apologized enough, if I was better, less “crazy” less clingy I would deserve better treatment. Even though I can see it in a nuanced way and take accountability for my own clingy behavior I know that his behavior towards me is completely unacceptable. The hardest part is breaking the pattern even with the knowledge–I feel almost prewired to tread that path of self-destructiveness especially since I use that impulsivity to cope with other painful events. Any insight or comments on this type of situation would be wonderful.
PurpleLily
on 01/09/2012 at 5:33 am
@ Courtney : I come from a family of domestic violence and my mother sounds exactly like yours, so I wanted to share a few thoughts (no master at life experiences, just some thoughts here..)
No one and I mean NO ONE can talk to you that way. There isisnt a problem severe enough in this WORLD for someone to behave that way. It is so easy for us to feel like a victim because its what we saw of our mothers. But you know what, we are not them – there is nothing worse than putting ourselves in the spot of a victim and crying about it.
Obviously, this man is a super d-bag and there is nothing good that would have come out of your interaction with him. Doesnt matter how great in bed he is or how attracted you are to each other. And because I have been where you are , I would kindly ask you to think about seeking professional help – you dont have to appologise to someone like him in the hope that it will get better – you did nothing wrong (and it doesnt matter how clingy you are!).
It took me 2+ years of therapy to build my self esteem to the point that I can now see that until and unless I am most atrocious GF on the planet (and even then..) no one gets to treat me that way. You do have other painful events to deal with and once you work on those, these will start to fall into place. Please dont give up, give yourself more love and know that you deserve a gazillion times better.
Sending warm hugs.
cc
on 01/09/2012 at 11:53 pm
courtney-
i’m so glad PL responded, i tried about 10 times to respond and failed each time because i couldn’t BELIEVE how that guy treated you and i couldn’t find the words you needed. PL found them, she’s exactly right.
he’s PSYCHO, and his reaction is ALL him, and NO you. you were NOT clingy. he’s a absolute d-bag. i’m sorry he treated you that way.
now you know that the chemistry you felt with him was your abused past feeling at home with his crazy abusiveness – its all subconscious. google “traumatic bond” – some lovely on BR introduced that concept here (who was it?) and it fits. unfortunately, what feels familiar, like “home” to adults who were abused as children is exactly what you found with this guy – abuse. so we need to go sllllooooowwwwwllllyyy in dating situations until we get enough of a sense about a person to ensure they are decent, kind and open-hearted. i know this was just a casual encounter, but maybe these are a not a good idea for us – since our meters can be so off until we spend years retraining them, we can make miscalculations about guys of such great magnitude as to have devastating consequences to us.
was it grace’s niece who said, when asked how she picked her grade school boyfriend, 1- he is nice to her and 2- he doesn’t freak her out. those are our criteria.
be easy on you, courtney. its him, not you. you just need to pick better guys. jeeez, what a dick.
big hugs
courtney
on 03/09/2012 at 1:26 am
Thank you cc! I’ve written a longer response to all of you below but just wanted to say I so appreciate your insight and compassion.You’re right about the idea of “traumatic bond.” I am already in therapy for issues related to my dysfunctional family so I will definitely be investigating that further in future sessions. It was quite the traumatic experience because I already suffer from anxiety when it comes to sex, sexual issues, etc. This was one of my first intimate experiences outside of a long-term relationship so I felt so shocked and scarred when I received this reaction from him, especially when I felt like I had taken a big step towards making a sexual choice on my own (most of the time I always felt pressured to do things; this was one of the few times I felt like I wanted to engage). But yes everyone else has told me the same–it is his problem, not mine. My responsibility is feeling better about myself and treating myself well and not chasing after dirtbags like him 🙂 Thank you so much for your comment, it really helped!!!
Lilia
on 02/09/2012 at 4:57 am
Be careful of the tendency to apologize. I found out the hard way that whenever you apologize to someone abusive or who doesn´t respect you, he´ll treat you even worse. Because he then sees the fact that you were willing to bend your hand as a weakness, and a green light to abuse you even more.
I also discovered that when you don´t go into apologizing mode with a bully (like my former employer) he will be angry at first, but then you can cut yourself off more easily. And with your self esteem and dignity intact.
courtney
on 03/09/2012 at 1:32 am
Hi Lilia,
Thanks for your comment! You’re right about the apologizing. This person seemed so douchey that I was afraid he would say more hurtful things so I finally just stopped even trying. Silence worked better in this particular interaction and he is out of my life…I am so happy about that. 🙂
courtney
on 03/09/2012 at 1:14 am
Hi PurpleLily,CC and Lilia,
I will be writing individual responses but just wanted to say collectively–Thanks so much for your compassionate responses. I really appreciate it. I actually ran into him again the night I wrote that post when I went out with my friends dancing (he knew from previous conversation that I was going to be at this place but chose to come with his friends nonetheless). I had two choices, both of which were acceptable: leave or keep enjoying myself. I chose to stay and enjoy myself. It was hard, since he was flirting with other girls shamelessly in the background. But at the end I succeeded in having a good time and living in the moment. I totally ignored him when he tried to approach me at the end of the night, besides giving him a dirty glare that basically said, “Back off.” I danced with other guys who treated me nicely (one was so nice and told me I was gorgeous and deserved better) and all in all I coped with it really well with the support of the all the amazing people around me. And now I come online to see this supportive outpouring…I am so grateful for all of you and this community. I have cut off all contact with him and will be going NC on his abusive ass. Thank you, lovely, insightful, strong people!!! 🙂
courtney
on 03/09/2012 at 1:30 am
Thank you purplelily! I’ve written you all a longer comment below. But I wanted to say thank you for sharing your experience with me. I am currently getting help and it has definitely affected my perspective. In the past I would have felt helpless and would have kept chasing this abusive EUM. Now I know I have more resources to turn to and wonderful people to support me–both in real life and also in communities like this 🙂 I am very lucky I am getting this insight while I am still young (although I know it is never too late to start treating yourself well) so I can take it all in and make better choices in the long run. I can choose not to be a victim and rather be an agent of change in my own life. Thank you 🙂
On Leaving Sugarland
on 03/09/2012 at 4:05 am
@Courtney
I just went through a similar experience with an ‘ex’ that I had always had a good relationship with, or so I thought.
After we both pushed the reset button, I ended it with him because I deemed him a virtual sex freak who was only interested in having virtual sex with me, and I was feeling pressured and bullied into having virtual sex with him…so, I impolitely told him so in an email. He responded with a heavy stream of extremely abusive emails; he had never done anything like that before, etc.
I was really upset and hurt by his actions, but yet, I remember a part of me wanting to apologize because I figured it was my fault because after all I sent him one of my playful but mean emails, and I felt this strong need to make things ‘right’ from some place inside of me that was in total conflict with another part of me that, like you, knew that his behavior had nothing to do with me, and was unacceptable.
But yet this other part of me was still telling me to apologize to him because I FELT it was my fault. In that moment, I think I could have gone either way.
Well, in one of his hateful emails, he ‘told’ me that he knew he was behaving badly, but that I was the “f**d up one,” and he was simply reacting to me, and I did feel like the f**d up one, who simply couldn’t just tell this man in a polite manner that I wasn’t interested in virtual sex, and that I wanted a real relationship with him.
But, the lights came on when he blamed me for his reaction: I really BELIEVE that people are responsible for how they react, after all was I not holding myself accountable for sending my mean email, even though he was acting like a virtual sex freak and bully? So, wth?
And, as he continued to pounce on me with more and more hateful emails…quite graphic…I don’t know why I kept reading them, maybe it was the shock. I just thought there is no way in hell I am apologizing to this guy.
I realized that apologizing felt comfortable to me…my uncomfortable comfort zone. It was something that I thought would put me back in balance internally…difficult to explain, but I know that it has to do with my childhood, and how I had to deal with my dysfunctional environment as a CHILD.
I deliberately remind myself that I am not a child anymore, and I don’t live with abusive people anymore, and I don’t have to use my childhood survival skills anymore.
My beliefs have changed, but I still find that I must confront old patterns by going through them in some way, and deciding to break the pattern in that moment by making choices in direct opposition to repeating the pattern…when I feel the need or call to repeat the pattern, I make a deliberate decision to go against the pattern, and it requires me stepping outside of my comfort zone…sometimes extremely difficult and painful, but DOABLE..baby steps, baby steps….
JR
on 12/09/2012 at 10:40 pm
I haven’t gotten through all of the comments but I wanted to write to you Courtney. I experienced something very similar recently and it was horrendous. I was seeing him on and off for about a month and half this summer (on and off because he was hot and cold) and he turned out to be a cruel, dirtbag too. I felt we had this incredible connection — the physical stuff was out of this world. But he turned out to be a total player and he was playing me along with many others. And he has since called me horrible things too online. I was shocked! I am no contact with him now and he recently saw me with a nice guy which seems like poetic justice…but believe it or not I am still struggling with staying NC. As horrible as he has been I still feel the pull. When I read your post, I thought how awesome that you saw it right away, Yes it’s probably my history of childhood and all of that that has made me gravitate to this type of treatment. I guess the important thing is..we now recognize this in us and we can change the pattern and work toward being in healthier situations. So as we work to stay away from these damn dirtbags, I hope that special someone in your near future shows you love and kindness that you deserve. Best to you in the future!
Ms.Option
on 31/08/2012 at 9:56 pm
I’ve been empathizing with his circumstances for over 2 years. He is always dealing with some drama. I have not seen him since May 15, and the steak dinner debacle when he stood me up.
But since then he let his wife move back in just so she could be closer to work and found himself being taken advantage of (his excuse).
His friend who had been letting him live in a home he owned for the last year free, told him he had to move out and he doesn’t understand how his friend could treat him so bad. So now they are back living in his parents basement apt and he’s very unhappy about that.
He hasn’t worked since Dec. (no one will pay him what he’s worth, his words).
So what have I done through all these circumstances? Been there sympathising,listening, building him up.
I got a job at a new business opening up last week, he asked me to refer him and help him get on. I referred him, he went in and talked to them and they had filled all positions but told him that everyone might not work out and would keep him in mind.
Long story short, he was texting me all this time, telling me how badly he wanted to work with me,etc.etc. Yesterday they offered him a job and he told them he would have to think about it. Huh?
Anyway, all this time I’ve been hearing from him every day,about how obsessed he is with working with me,blah, blah. And today nothing, no text, haven’t heard a word from him. Does he do these things just to see how willing I am to go out of my way and help him?
It doesn’t matter how much I sympathize,empathize,and try to help him, it does no good. And I finally have to admit he doesn’t love me, he just uses me for whatever he needs at the time, and it hurts. I can’t believe after everything he has done to me, I would even recommend him for a job. I must be crazier than he is. And it hurts
cc
on 01/09/2012 at 4:56 am
ms. option-
i’m not even going to try to say it nicely.
he’s a loser.
you’re being spineless.
you’re wasting your life and your energy.
don’t even bother being hurt.
stop participating in this.
don’t even bother dumping him. just go NC.
work on you. HARD.
and change. your. damn. BR. handle.
Allison
on 01/09/2012 at 6:19 am
Option,
What do you get out of this? The guy is unemployed – hope you are not supporting him – he’s with his wife, and you have not seen him in 3.5 months. There is no relationship here.
grace
on 01/09/2012 at 8:28 am
Ms option
Oh dear, cc’s comment made me laugh but she’s right. Aren’t you sick of this yet? He is always dealing with some drama? Aren’t you too?
I am reluctant to go down the What Men Like route but since it’s important to you, what men like is a woman who enjoys her own life, knows her own mind, can stand up to him, nicely, doesn’t make him her pet project. Actually, I think women want that from men too.
You tell us about him and his problems but we dont give a fuk. Neither should you. Get rid of him. Yes you will prob will feel empty, meaningless and friendless. Been there,but also add homeless. Look then at the sorry state of your life and build it up. Go out,go to church, travel, do meet up, read, gym, volunteer, learn to cook,make new friends. Then tell me if you still want this waste of space man.
and he’s married though you don’t seem bothered by that FACT
dancingqueen
on 01/09/2012 at 10:42 am
Hi Ms Option:
I agree that you need to change your BR handle but at the same time, you are still CHOOSING-that it is, you are not being forced by anyone-to be an option. So it fits. You need to change your actions and stop making yourself an option otherwise what is the point of changing your name with nothing is changing.
It sounds like others feel like you are a broken record so I can only surmise that you have posted too much about this loser and not enough about what you are going to do to change.The question is of course why you are CHOOSING to continue to play the victim; the door is open, just walk out.
“So what have I done through all these circumstances? Been there sympathising,listening, building him up.”
Yes, and that makes no sense why you would blow up a married man’s ego who is a sponger, liar, user…Stop writing about him and start writing about your need to do this, and where it comes from and you might be ready to change your handle, right?
No one is stopping you but you. You are your biggest obstacle, not him unfortunately.
cc
on 02/09/2012 at 12:09 am
YES! dancingqueen! word!!!
option – i’m sorry that i can’t be more empathetic (how ironic, its the subject of this post), and i’m the most empathetic person i know. but i can’t.
i used to have a big sister. she was my best friend. she had this “straighten up and fly right” attitude, she was tough love 24/7/365. she almost never empathized with me. i hated it. my heart tells me to empathize with you – but i still can’t.
you need to WAKE UP. because i actually disagree with loveydovey (love you honey) – its not that you care too much about him or that you’re over-empathizing with this guy – its that you DON’T care enough about YOU. and you’re not empathizing with YOU. you’re using his cracker, lying, cheating, broke-ass drama as an excuse to not live your own life.
option – you are ABDICATING your life to a loser.
STOP IT. listen to grace – it will SUCK to focus on you, but that’s what you must do.
Lessons Learned
on 02/09/2012 at 3:17 pm
YES cc!! I agree!!
I first started reading BR 6 months ago when my shitty relationship ended, which was of course a good outcome, but incredibly painful.
But the pain was more my realisation that I had been abdicating from my life rather than truly mourning the relationship. I had been focussing on him and his needs and ambitions, deliberately not thinking of my own needs and ambitions, because it seemed easier that way. And so I was winded, shocked, when I was all alone and my own circumstances were brought sharply into focus.
In the 6 months since we broke up, I’ve slipped up and gone back to an ex who was also a shitbag. Now flushed.
I’ve also been on three small holidays with friends that were each fantastic.
I’ve changed jobs from being a corporate lawyer to working in a not-for-profit, have taken back up art classes, have seen every exhibition I’ve wanted to lately, have been spending much more time with my friends and meeting great new people.
When I was with my bf, I thought that there were no other guys out there. I am finding the happier I become, the more men there seem to be!!
I am now a participant in my own life, and I’m so happy that people keep telling me a look different (in a good way).
Get back in to your life, rejoin the party, and get rid of this assclown out of your precious life!
xxx
dancingqueen
on 02/09/2012 at 6:16 pm
I’ve also been on three small holidays with friends that were each fantastic.
“I’ve changed jobs from being a corporate lawyer to working in a not-for-profit, have taken back up art classes, have seen every exhibition I’ve wanted to lately, have been spending much more time with my friends and meeting great new people. ”
right on!!! Way better to live your life and create it yourself than hang with a loser that brings you down! So fun to “discover” yourself than try to figure them out…
dancingqueen
on 02/09/2012 at 6:13 pm
@CC
Word back at you;) You know you were lucky to have friend like that, who was straight up. It is hard nowadays to find women like that because usually women don’t say things directly, they just “empathize” face to face and then complain behind your back lol.
@ Ms Option, I know that you are probably pissed off right now but you heard it from about 5 people, so maybe you need to apply it, right? It is harsh but not harsher than what you have been putting up with from that AC. Please stop telling yourself that you cannot do this; all over the world women leave abusive men over much worse odds, you are like a jailed person holding onto a key and complaining about your jailer…
Ms.Option
on 03/09/2012 at 5:21 am
Dancing queen,
I appreciate your comments.
I understand I have allowed myself to be an option.
I wish I understood the reason for my actions, I think it would be a lot easier to change them if I understood them.
grace
on 03/09/2012 at 9:59 am
ms
if it’s not sinking in get “Mr U and and the FBG”. Spending time reading the book is a more “concentrated” than following the blog. I also saw a counsellor, an older man. For me, it was important to experience a positive relationship with a man. I feared getting into moany therapy with a woman. I didn’t want sympathy, I wanted to be challenged. That’s what I told him. I found it more bracing to be talking to an older man, and it balanced well with this blog which has many female contributors.
I’m not dissing female therapists, it’s what suited me at the time, and you need to find what suits you.
Lessons Learned
on 03/09/2012 at 11:47 am
I think your reasons are that you dont like being by yourself, because then you have to think about yourself, and even reach a point where you like yourself. You are wasting your energy on him, because it’s easier that way.
I was saying to a friend the other day, the energy you spend on a dickwad like your MM is energy you could be spending on yourself, spending on other people you love (friends or family) and ultimately, one day, spending on a man that you truly love, who truly cares for you and loves you back.
When I was in your situation, I tried to picture what I would like my life to look like if a was by myself. I thought, “if I was by myself, but had lots of friends, was being social, getting invited to things, working on stuff I love that I can be proud of (for me this is my art) then being by myself would be fine.” I didn’t have all those things, but from the time I was by myself I started working on them. And in only 6 months my “by myself” life is beginning to resemble how I’d hoped it would. And I’m truly enjoying myself. But it did take about 6 months to get to this point. You can do it tho.
cc
on 03/09/2012 at 3:00 pm
ms option-
lessons learned has EXcellent points.
being left alone with ourselves can feel like the worst thing that can happen to us, but it is actually the best. i know because i used to feel the former, now i feel the latter.
and the six months LL refers to (good for you, LL by the way) – i read that and i thought it was nothing, like a brief flash of time, she turned her life around in less than 1/2 a year, which, no matter how old she is, is a small percentage of her life to date. it felt like a long time to her – to us, its the briefest moment.
and those six months are going to pass anyway. how long has your dog been wagged by the tail of this MM? is it 2 years? is it more?
you are worth investing in. he. is. not.
dancingqueen
on 03/09/2012 at 3:04 pm
Ms. Option,
For me it helped writing down my thoughts about how I wanted to act, and then arguing with myself to answer this question “Will doing this (xyz) result in me feeling proud of myself and/or moving my life towards a positive end?” If you can’t answer positively, you should not do it:)
LoveyDovey
on 01/09/2012 at 1:58 pm
Option,
There comes a time when a woman just needs to stop being there for men that don’t want to help themselves.
He has issues that you can never fix and you are still trying to be Florence, Option. Stop trying to fix him and stop trying to fix his messed up life.
You care too much….
You need to just let him go so he can finally man up about his own situation and do something about it because all you are to him is another excuse not to be proactive about getting his sh*t together.
Step out of the way, let him deal with his own issues and go about trying to deal with yours.
Awakened
on 31/08/2012 at 10:07 pm
Great article Natalie. With the one who we are with we should be able to work through those circumstances together not be an emotional airbag and if so its time to Exit. You are right sometimes it’s just “character”. Character says and does more than we think.
Heather
on 31/08/2012 at 10:41 pm
“Sometimes people […] can barely see their way to taking care of themselves never mind somebody else […] some of us are severely impacted by rejection, heartbreak, or stress […] but, it’s not an acceptable reason for you to put yourself in the front line of fire. You can empathise with their position, but […] you may have to do what they can’t […]and put an end to this situation for both yours and their sake.”
Natalie, this is so true and was something I needed to hear. Yesterday, I almost made the mistake of hiring someone with the above characteristics — great soul, lots of potential — but clingy, wanted to “become close buddies” way too fast and showing signs they will cause me stress, and grief and no privacy during a demanding upcoming task. Talking to this person made me feel like I was being crushed by an octopus. They refused to let me off the phone with them. Finally hanging up after the tenth try, and having heard all their illnesses, bad luck stories and maladies, I felt drained and ill.
I spoke to my superior and he told me to not hire this person. I followed his advice and felt immediately so much lighter, freer and better. But I also felt a little guilty as I had raised this person’s hopes by potentially offering a job. In the end had I done so it would have been destructive for us both and the whole project. I put myself first this time instead of being “everybody’s little miracle, Miss You Are So Nice Unlike All The Others”.
I’m glad I read your essay today. It’s spot on, and I feel a lot better now about doing what I had to do, to protect myself, and my project. Thank you.
swissmiss
on 31/08/2012 at 10:47 pm
Another astounding blog. What a gift you have, Nat. I excused my MM many times because he was going thru a tough time—of his own creation, I might add. I wanted to demonstrate how kind and empathic I was–but honestly? I felt like a mother excusing a spoiled child. I finally ‘tried his behavior’ on a mature man friend whom I respect. In my mind’s eye, I did it just like a paper doll, I pinned that behavior on someone else. I could see that even in the most heinous circumstances, my man friend would have been thoughtful, fair, respectful. Who was I kidding, cutting this MM slack? It was just denial on my part.
Sadder but Wiser
on 01/09/2012 at 12:09 pm
What a great technique! There’s something very powerful about comparing our ex’s behavior to the most mature, healthy man we know and see how it measures up. And then making the decision to never again settle for less than that.
Cheese sandwich
on 31/08/2012 at 11:00 pm
True story:
Yesterday, my AC ex sent me a pity-party SMS saying he felt like a gangrenous foot that had been amputated and incinerated because I have had zero contact with him since we broke up. He wants me to be his emotional airbag and empathise with him.
This is the same guy, serial cheater, who broke up with me citing that he preferred the company of another woman – coming to me as if he’s the one to be pitied. The barefaced gall of it!
Judging the situation – his circumstances are no longer my concern. I so wanted to call him up and scream at him like a raving fishwife, but this man is so deluded, to the point he still cannot see anything wrong in his behaviour and treats me like some fallback.
No contact remains. Thank you, Natalie!
PurpleLily
on 01/09/2012 at 5:36 am
@ Cheesy: LOL. What a moron. What a classic idiot. Good on you. NC all the way. WHO the hell does he think he is?! And why do they even THINK we will pity them after what they have done to us???? WOAH. Shocking.
Made me laugh though, major AC behaviour! Good on you again.
runnergirl
on 01/09/2012 at 6:22 am
Yeah Cheese sandwich, it is totally amazing the gall and the sense of entitlement. He feels like a “gangrenous foot that had been amputated and incinerated” that’s cos he was…for good reason. His inability to develop a committed relationship with another woman based on trust, honesty, and respect isn’t your concern. The fact he is still unavailable and out there fishing to fill his void, is NOT your concern. Yeah, I’d want to scream at him like a ravingfish wife…but nope. Don’t dignify this EU/AC with any response. Here’s my suggestion, boo-effing-hoo for him. You move on. Let him drown in his dribble.
truth=freedom
on 01/09/2012 at 6:05 am
I would think he has described himself accurately. He is a gangrenous person, gangrene makes you very ill and sick. (bet you felt like this) gangrene is potentially life threatening and smells very bad (betcha he sucked the life out of you and everything he said smelled fishy!) its so hilarious when they are UNintentionally SPOT ON in describing themselves! Do not engage with him, he is hoping for any kind of contact, even if you did rant like a fishwife, he would be smirking on the other end of the phone, and saying “yay I got a reaction”.
dancingqueen
on 01/09/2012 at 10:52 am
Good call cheese sandwich; it is really amazing how these types of guys are the same; you could see that pity party coming a mile away probably. Yes, telling off deluded people is pointless. I wish though, that when someone does stuff like that,that I would not spend so much time telling them off in my head though.I still get a bit obsessive in my head when people have poor form but I am working on it…
JR
on 13/09/2012 at 2:33 am
awesome Cheese!! Congrats on staying strong.
Anonymous
on 01/09/2012 at 12:47 am
“Sometimes people are truly not in a very good place.This is real, but it’s not an acceptable reason for you to put yourself in the front line of fire. You can empathise with their position.”
Imagine someone who’s sick, maybe they have Tuberculosis. You empathize with their bad circumstance…..but you sure as hell don’t let them cough on you just cause they’re sick.
Same with dodgy men. Maybe life hasn’t treated them fairly. Maybe they have issues from their childhood, past relationships. You wish them the best. But you sure as hell don’t let them “cough” on you with sh*tty behavior that diminishes your dignity and self-respect.
No one has the right to (consciously or unconsciously) tear down another person no matter what circumstance has been dealt them.
PurpleLily
on 01/09/2012 at 8:07 am
“Same with dodgy men. Maybe life hasn’t treated them fairly. Maybe they have issues from their childhood, past relationships. You wish them the best. But you sure as hell don’t let them “cough” on you with sh*tty behavior that diminishes your dignity and self-respect.”
Brilliantly put. Thank you.
selkie
on 01/09/2012 at 1:25 am
I empathized with my last bf when he sat me down and told me all about the childhood tragedy (his father died suddenly 26 years ago when the bf was 17, he is now 44) he said he never recovered from and that he has bouts of serious depression, especially for the whole month around the anniversary of his fathers death. He also said he had a falling out with his mother, and no longer had a relationship with her. It didn’t occur to me to be anything but understanding and compassionate. We’ve all said, “I’m not perfect, how can I expect someone else to be?” I have no relationsip wit my father. I still agree with this to a degree, but I believe now this was really a disclaimer he was throwing out, not a vulnerable moment of sharing. The kicker I ignored was when he said somewhere during that conversation that he ‘didn’t want to hurt me’. He already knew inside himself somewhere that he couldn’t hack it, being in a relationship. About a month later he asked me to open up and tell him what made me guarded. I told him about my abusive father and subsequently an abusive boyfriend I had two years prior to us meeting, so I was going slow. He seemed empathetic, but he said something weird…..”I thought it was something worse than that, like you got sexually molested as a child or something, by the way you were hesitant to tell me.” HHmmmm. He wanted an example of the ex bf abuse…so I told him a little, but really only the tip of the iceberg. It was painful to tell him about it, I was actually ashamed I was with the abusive guy for 4 years. Over the next week, the new guy became more distant and dumped me about two weeks later. We’d been dating for 6 months. He said he wanted me to open up, but when I did he bailed. He had a right to end the relationship if it wasn’t working for him, but the way it all went down seemed heartless….and well, not very empathetic. I felt disposable afterward like my admissions of past abuse made me less attractive to him. His admissions of past hurt from his childhood still haunting him had me putting on my Florence uniform, I admit. I won’t tell any future bf’s about the abuse in my life unit long into the relationship. It doesn’t define me, and I’ve actually grown because of it. The fact that he wanted to know made me think he would be empathetic. Oh, and btw, he made his ex out to be cold and heartless, he dumped her because she ‘had issues’. We needed to be perfect so there would be plenty of room for us to be there for him and his precious wounds, but not vise versa. I have trouble forgiving him still. Its been 7 months since we broke up and we haven’t spoken once. He drove past me and beeped his horn the other day while I was walking on the sidewalk. I ignored him, but I admit I wanted to flip him my middle finger. I thought that after 7 months NC I would not feel this kind of anger. I can’t help but feel stabbed in the back still.
dancingqueen
on 01/09/2012 at 11:00 am
Selkie,
I validate you even if it probably doesn’t help; what he did was inexcusable, twisted, cruel and very manipulative.
It is awful when someone asks us to open up only to be disregarding but that is so perfectly the pattern of twisted narcissistic people. Life is just a game to them, and the goal is to gain power and attention from others to feed their weird ego issues.
I am glad that you did not flip him the finger but totally understand why you would want to.
You know I dated someone like that a looooooong time ago, for only about a month. I was so turned inside out about it, but now I never really think about him and if I saw him he would not matter to me at all. I just honeslty think of him as some weird John Malkovich-style character weirdo:) Hugs!!!!
Lawrence
on 01/09/2012 at 4:02 pm
Hi, Selkie –
Maybe the moral of the story is that men *generally* aren’t Florence Nightingales. 🙂
It sounds as though he didn’t want your problems interfering or competing with his. I think guys tend to value women as nurturers. If they see a woman as “damaged goods,” then they might question whether they can get the nurturing they desire.
Ironically, women who have had these kinds of experiences might be even more nurturing or empathetic than those who haven’t. But I suspect he didn’t see it that way, perhaps because he believed there would be a reciprocal obligation on his part to empathize with you. I’m guessing that wasn’t an obligation he embraced.
(Heavily speculating here, of course.)
Learner
on 01/09/2012 at 9:16 pm
Lawrence and Selkie,
It seems the tragic tales some people have end up giving them “benefits” in the form of sympathy from others. If the ex I was involved with is any indication, some of these people do not take kindly to the tragic circumstances of others, as it diminishes the “oh, you poor thing” responses directed at them and, as Lawrence suggested, competes with their tale of woe. The exMM’s mum died when he was quite young, plus he married a woman who “disrespected” him, and he used these two circumstances to get all kinds of empathy from others (including me, of course). He didn’t seem to have time for providing me with any empathy or consideration either.
Selkie, I can understand how you feel let down by the way this guy ended things, but it sounds to me like you dodged a bullet.
Time to validate your OWN feelings and circumstances, and move on to someone who cares for you. Hugs xo
dancingqueen
on 01/09/2012 at 10:55 pm
“It sounds as though he didn’t want your problems interfering or competing with his. I think guys tend to value women as nurturers. If they see a woman as “damaged goods,” then they might question whether they can get the nurturing they desire.”
I see where you are coming from Lawrence but I am not sure that I agree that he was looking at her as “damaged goods” as much as wanting to see her that way.
He set her up, he wanted to find out some “dirt” to paint her as “damaged” and I bet you if she had been super nurturing and given him no info at all, he still would have walked, if not faster. Selkie could probably have told him that nothing was making her guarded-that that is just the way she is-and he would have still broken up. He would have just told her that she was not emotional, too withholding etc. I think that the more damaged person here is him: he hangs on to something that happened decades ago as an excuse to have a pity party ( my mom died when I was eight and I never really talk about that, it is just not a big deal to me now and certainly not something that I would haul out to get some empathy from a guy).
That guy was a master con artist in my opinion. I bet every woman that he has dated he asked them if they had some skeletons. And every woman said something and then he bailed. Or, as someone else said, they treated him like shit and he stayed. Selkie you could have done nothing imho; he would have left no matter what you said.
Allison
on 01/09/2012 at 5:41 pm
Selkie,
The guys is a immature jerk!!!
You were set up! He was looking for an out, and in his mind, he found it – remember, he had thought you had been sexually abused.
The guy has big issues, thankfully they are no longer yours!
Used
on 01/09/2012 at 6:34 pm
This is the type of guy who wants women who treat him like crap. B/C that is what he, deep down, thinks he is: crap. He has no self-respect and hates himself.
Trust me on this.
And, yes, he baited you.
And, yes, he wanted out.
selkie
on 02/09/2012 at 1:18 am
Thank you everyone for your replies.
@Dancing Queen, I believe you’re right. He was looking for an out. It was a pattern with him to avoid dealing with things, so it makes sense he would find a way out that wouldn’t make him work at his own issues, but focus on mine as the problem. I didn’t think I was any more guarded than him to be honest, but he refused to see his own part. I think you’re right too that I dodged a bullet. He didn’t even come close to having my back.
@Lawrence, I agree that he didn’t want anyone who’s problems interfered with his own precious ones. But….I didn’t really have problems per say. I moved past the abuse, and I didn’t present it as an obstacle to over come, or as an open would. I didn’t think I was too guarded either (he thought it), maybe a little Not any more than he was. It was only 6 months into it, and I’m not sure what he was expecting of me. I felt like this was the healthiest approach to a relationship I’d ever had. That’s what confused me. Damaged goods, maybe in his eyes, but more like new and improved in mine.
@Learner, Yes, he revered his past hurts and wore them like a badge and as a crutch at the same time. He was so sweet to me in the beginning, but he changed during his ‘month’ of depression over xmas and became snipey and mean. I became more guarded after that. I’d lost some trust in him and felt like his land mines were just under the surface.
@Allison and Used, I sure felt set up, and that hurt more than the breakup. I’d been having feelings that things maybe weren’t going to work out (he was becoming more and more moody and was snapping at me for lots of little things). If he had just sat down and talked to me one on one, I would of been hurt still but would of been left with a feeling of mutual respect. Instead I was left with a feeling of WTF just happened and like lawrence said, damaged goods. I also believe he hates himself….he called himself a failure over and over during the talk he had with me about his father’s death. I was supportive and went over all the great things I see in him. I think he tried in his own way, but gave up and ran off with his tail between is legs.
selkie
on 02/09/2012 at 1:34 am
Oh yeah, a side note and probably off topic. I ran into an ex (not the one we talked about above) today while playing a sport we both are involved with. I am friendly enough when we run into each other, but we don’t keep in touch or anything. I treat him like he is a casual friend. Well, I asked him if he had been to this new venue for another sport I know he plays called “the Ditch”….he responds in front of all the others around us ( like 6 people) “Yeah, if you mean the ditch in your pants?” OMG! I was embarrassed to say the least because everyone heard him and got silent. I told him he didn’t need to be rude. He said, “Sorry, it was the first thing that popped out.” Not good enough. As I was leaving he apologized again and said he was just joking. Wow.
dancingqueen
on 02/09/2012 at 6:23 pm
“Yeah, if you mean the ditch in your pants?”
eww…what a crazy immature loser. He is how old, chronologically? Okay now you have permission to give THAT ONE the finger lol. Just shake your head and keep movin on….
Teddie
on 03/09/2012 at 5:40 am
Yes, Selkie, show him THAT finger!
LoveyDovey
on 01/09/2012 at 11:22 pm
“Maybe the moral of the story is that men *generally* aren’t Florence Nightingales. ”
Well, this is actually something I’ve realized a for quite some time now and is an excellent point that Lawrence brought up.
I notice that some of us really did expect the EUM’s in our lives to be OUR emotional airbags.
In fact, that’s EXACTLY what we were hoping they’d do for us that we were doing for them….just that they weren’t returning the favor.
And they wanted it that way….
cc
on 02/09/2012 at 12:20 am
selkie-
i’m so sorry.
if it helps – the ex-EUM would use me for free therapy…which i was really good at. when i’d say, look, i’m not a professional, and i can’t be your therapist – i don’t want to be, i’m your girlfriend – and if you really want to solve these issues, you must go into therapy – like i did. y’know what he’d say? “but who else do i have to talk to but you?” (uuuhhhh….the therapist i’m telling you to go to…??)
the ONE time i needed him to “therapize” me, he objected – told me it made him see me more like a friend than a girlfriend (really? but it was ok for me to therapize you? and ok for me to make the effort to still see you as a lover?) and made him feel like he had to “manage” me (really? while its perfectly ok for you to aim your firehose of neurosis at me? and i’m supposed to be endlessly helpful and empathetic and still want to sex you?).
bottom line – he was a selfish fuck. who set me up to fail. my situation was a bit different, but i was set up the whole time. he was never going to give me anything resembling mutual love, care, trust, respect. and i kind of knew it the whole time. i just didn’t act on it as i might have.
sorry, honey. you feel stabbed in the back because you were. he’s a douchebag.
and before you go feeling like you can’t ever trust anyone again – the lesson here is to listen better to what a guy is saying, to what he seems to want from you, and to what he seems willing to happily, generously, give to you. had you known at the beginning of this relationship what you know now, you probably would have been able to detect his underlying one-sidedness, his lack of empathy, that he’s a user. think back – there were flags, you just didn’t know enough to see them. but now you know.
guys nearly always tell us the truth about who they are – we need to be wise enough to see that truth for what it is.
be easy on you. it will take a while for the anger to go away. but it will eventually go.
selkie
on 02/09/2012 at 3:21 pm
Thanks CC. Yes, the red flags and amber flags were present and I explained them away as they happened because they were subtle and not as in my face as with other guys, like the past abuser. Until they started being ‘in my face’ I didn’t trust my own judgment enough even when I felt things were off. I am a nurturer, and a mom, so seeing someone hurt makes me want to help, not run. I need to keep it in perspective, finding that line between being there and being an emotional airbag. I don’t want to be angry anymore, but seeing him drive by and beep at me felt like he was tossing me a pity, ‘see, I’m not a bad guy crumb’. No thanks.
Lawrence
on 01/09/2012 at 1:02 am
Hi, Natalie –
While there’s nothing wrong with having unresolved feelings toward one’s ex, the wrongness comes in when we aren’t honest – either to ourselves, or to our partner – about that.
It’s very tempting when you’re hurting from an “ex-relationship,” even when you’re not over him or her, to ease that pain with another relationship – particularly one which promises the possibility of healing wounds caused by your ex and/or meeting needs your ex failed to meet.
This is where blogs and books like yours, N, can really be helpful: any person who shows any sign of clinging to their ex is indicating a CODE AMBER, and very likely a CODE RED. They ain’t ready.
And if you’re having unresolved/ambivalent feelings about your ex, you “ain’t” ready, either. Take some time to heal and process your grief, and save a potential partner and yourself a ****load of grief in the bargain. 🙂
LoveyDovey
on 01/09/2012 at 2:07 pm
Great post, Lawrence. Agreed completely.
Laurie
on 01/09/2012 at 2:54 am
This is definitely where I’m at right now. I’m feeling so guilty and unassured about breaking up with him. I’ve been analyzing the crap out of the whole situation: is this a character or a circumstance issue? He says he will change. Should I believe him? Shouldn’t I give him another chance? I’m not perfect. Who do I think I am?
The *circumstances* of this on-again-off-again relationship have been going on a year now. But now I feel like he’s finally over all the pain and willing to work. Do I give up now when I’ve waited for so long? Won’t I regret it?
I’m beginning to think that the solution is just to tell him that I need to work on myself and make changes (which I do) and he needs to work on himself and make changes (which he says he’s willing to do). But we have to make these changes apart.
I’m not going to tell him to wait for me (which would be classic EU\FG behavior). But if in a few months if we’ve made those changes and we’re still single; we can try to give it a go. I just feel that I need to SEE from him that he’s worked on the lying\anger issues and not just hear that he *can* or he *plans* to work on these things.
Am I living in LaLa land? Or does this seem like a wise plan?
grace
on 01/09/2012 at 8:08 am
Laurie
Lying and anger is a double flush, on and off is a flush. Working on issues takes a long time, it’s gonna be a few months at least of serious commitment. It may or may not resolve. And if it does there’s a stong chance that one or both of you changes so much you no longer want your previous partner. I wouldn’t want any of my exes back, I’ve changed so much.
It’s not so much a wise plan as very long odds indeed. You don’t trust him and youre trying to make him trustworthy. I can’t imagine what will happen in a few months of separation that will morph him into a new person. But I left la la land a long time ago. I did drop by for a visit when I met the current man but I didn’t like it there and enjoy being back in reality, and a man who I have no desire to change other than nagging him to eat more vegetables.
You’re gonna say “I dont want him to change. I want him to stop lying and being angry”. But that is a very big change indeed.
The man still resists vegetables, so, ask yourself how likely is a major character turnaround?
Fearless
on 01/09/2012 at 12:34 pm
Laurie
I’d rather deal with a thief than a liar – at least you can see what they are stealing from you. A liar is crazy-making mind effery. Do you really want to hang about while some angry liar decides he wants to learn how to stop being an angry liar? How and when is that gonna happen? If you want your man to be different, get a different man. Don’t give him any more of your time or efforts; angry and lying is just not good enough – there’s nowhere to go with that except down.
Infinite Corridor
on 01/09/2012 at 1:24 pm
Hi Laurie. I tooootally feel you on this one. Been there, and done that. Made that exact same plan. It still is a trip to me how many of us think and do the exact same things.
Are you in la la land?
Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: Well, really, I think you know the long answer but it seems hard and long and scary. But let me tell you: your plan won’t work. Firstly, it’s *your* plan, not *his* plan. Maybe he’ll nod his head and possibly genuinely agree that it’s good or right, but he’s not gonna do it. He will do the bare minimum– probably less, you will build it up to sound like it’s more– and then pull the same trick again.
As NML said in this very article you are commenting on: of course he’s not perfect, nobody is, but sticking with someone who is hurt or broken is actually not helping either of you. If he has a problem, soothing his own fears by having you/a harem on the backburner is a great way to forever avoid dealing with that problem. It’s not a matter of you’re a martyr and he’s a villain, let’s not even MAKE a value judgment. It’s irrelevant. If either of you are going to get better though, you need to follow your own path.
Also, don’t you think this is kind of the coward’s way of making a break? Hey, let’s not talk or interact, but just… keep me in your thoughts… for the future for something or other… whatever. I think instead of examining his issues and whether or not he can step up (he can, but he won’t, important distinction) you should look inward and see why it is you’re so scared of having to let go.
Lastly, why do you want to work on your issues for some d-bag? Don’t you want to do it for yourself? I mean, really, isn’t this all about fulfilling your own needs, and making YOUR pain go away? That’s what this break-up light, is, after all. Hoping a happy ending will erase all the complexity and hurts? Do it so you feel better in a deep, sustainable way, not so you can earn a golden ticket into hell.
As a person who has done this *exact* same thing you are talking about with someone multiple times, despite my family and friends’ warnings, I hope some part of it will compel you to stay strong. It’s not about burning him, or punishing him for being in pain or broken, but about turning inward and focusing on your needs.
Allison
on 01/09/2012 at 5:44 pm
Laurie,
You’re live in la la land!
Lying and anger are character issues, and they don’t change.
Time to get off the merry go round, and find someone authentic.
Learner
on 01/09/2012 at 9:21 pm
Laurie,
I waited over 2 years for the ex to work on changing his lying habit. He told me time and time again that he would “try” to step up to the plate and be completely honest with me, but he found it difficult to do as he didn’t want to tell the truth if it would hurt me. At first (while I was in lala land) I fell for this explanation but as time went on, I realized how disrespectful it was. The more I read on BR, the more I believe that it’s difficult for long-time liars and cheats to change their ways. Kudos to you for planning to work on YOU – that will give you way more bang for your buck!
Laurie
on 02/09/2012 at 8:06 pm
Ladies,
Thanks so much for all the responses. I keep trying to rationalize and make excuses for his behavior, but at the end of the day a spade is a spade. I just don’t like feeling like I’m being judgemental. I suppose need to work on changing my perspective.I really, really need to work on trusting myself. And I am. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your feedback while I’m trying to gain confidence in this area.
By the way, do these guys cry and plead when you break up with them? It hurts my heart so much and I feel so guilty. Surely this is a sign that he loves me and is serious? But then I get the feeling that I’m being manipulated. I hate hurting someone. I think that’s what’s causing me the most anxiety.
Allison
on 03/09/2012 at 3:00 am
Laurie,
If you have to make excuses for people’s behavior there is a big problem, this is not how relationships work.
You’re delaying dealing with your own crap, this has nothing to do with his pain, but the failure to move on a relationship where you may have to let someone in!
No more excuses!!!!!
Lessons Learned
on 03/09/2012 at 11:51 am
Read Nat’s posts on CROCODILE TEARS!!!!!!!!!
dancingqueen
on 03/09/2012 at 3:21 pm
Laurie,
The last two guys with whom I broke up cried. One I know for a fact was putting on croc tears because he wrote me a one line email a few weeks later after sobbing hysterically at my house and saying things like “You are the first woman ever since my divorce who I”…cue swelling music. It was so obviously staged that I should have laughed but it was so devastating to realize, in that moment, how self-absorbed he was, and how hollow we really had been in terms of his true commitment, that I just felt sick and chilled.
The last one…yeah a bunch of tears and I think he meant it but now I get occasional emails and phone calls that seem to just indicate that he wants another go to satisfy his curiousity. I think tears can often be shock, manipulation, or from another source vrom the past, but triggered by the pain of the break-up. I would not put much stock in a man’s breakup tears, I would just judge him by his emotional engagement during the whole relationship, start to finish. IMHO:)
Gigi
on 01/09/2012 at 5:22 am
Your entries always hit home for me, this one most especially right now. I started casually dating a man in the military, about four months ago. Because I knew he was only stationed in my area until December, I kept my guard up and entered the situation cautiously. This man tirelessly courted me, said and did all the right things, and made me feel like the most special girl in the world. That lasted until about two weeks ago. I could sense him pulling away and changing his behavior pretty radically and suddenly. When I asked him about it, his answer was that he was going to find out where he was going to be stationed in December within the next couple of weeks and the stress of that was getting to him. I assured him I understood, and he told me that he was going to reinvest himself in our relationship and be a better boyfriend. This did not happen. I could tell he was trying on the surface, but his heart wasn’t in it. He did however initiate moving into my house right after our conversation, which I have never allowed in a relationship before, but took as him committing to me and our relationship so reluctantly allowed it. We lived together a total of four days before he moved out. The phonecalls and texts became fewer and more far between and he didn’t seem to want to put any effort into our relationship. After waiting 16 hours to respond to a text message I sent him one evening that he was playing pool with his friends, he called me the next day and blankly told me he had “lost his spark” for me the week before and wasn’t interested in putting the effort in to continue the relationship. He said he had too much going on with his career and couldn’t be the boyfriend I deserved. I already have heard he is thinking of coming back and asking for a second chance based on the fact he was overwhelmed by his situation, but I know if I let him back I am doomed for a life filled with more of the same. Thank god for this site and my firm belief in no contact. Harder in the short-run, the only way to regain a sense of self and come out with the least amount of complications in the long run. Thank you Natalie.
Learner
on 01/09/2012 at 9:27 pm
Gigi,
If he is telling you he can’t be the boyfriend you deserve, I would believe him. You could try to convince him otherwise, but I agree you would be setting yourself up for a whole world of heartache. He moved in with you, then moved out within 4 days? He sounds like a rapid-cycling flip-flapper to me. That, or a user. It is good to hear you are a firm believer in no contact – it sounds like the way to go with this guy!
Lessons Learned
on 03/09/2012 at 11:37 am
Gigi, this sounds just like one of exes. It’s just not worth it. It hurts cos they start out so strong, and you (righfully) become happy and think that you’ve found a great guy. And then they pull the rug out from under you.
Someone who does that does not deserve a second chance IMHO. You wont be able to trust him, the nice things he does and says will always be soured by the memories you have of that rug being whipped right out.
There will be better, nicer, more caring men for you to be with.
@Learner – you are absolutely right. If he’s saying it out loud, he’s telling you loud and clear.
Gina
on 01/09/2012 at 10:24 am
Once again Nat you hit the ball out of the park with this one. I am SO enjoying doing me! Better to be alone that with bad company 🙂
Fearless
on 01/09/2012 at 12:20 pm
Finally I get five minutes this week to read BR! Yay. Great post Natalie. It highlights one of the ‘traps’ many of us fall into. i id all this with the ex EUM. I wasn’t a fixer or a Florence but I sure made a whole lot of excuses for him (many of which he didn’t even ask to me excuse – I made them up myself!). Every time he did the disappearing act or the silent treatment I would be very angry at first but when he seemed so able to completely ignore my annoyance I would end up thinking, well, it must be me cos he is such a smart guy and I am just getting all angry and emotional over nothing. I also put it down to ‘circumstances’ rather than the fact that he was an ignorant fecker who just ignored anything I had to say that he didn’t want to hear deal with. It took a great deal of mental and emotional effort for me to blame it on the ‘circumstances’: he’s just very busy, he finds it hard to deal with relationship stuff, he’s tired, he’s not feeling well, I am being a pain in the arse, I’m expecting too much, I need to calm down, I need to just go with the flow, I should apologise for my outburst!)
As you say Nat:
“We all have circumstances – this should never mean that you sell yourself short while you place a higher value on someone. More importantly, when you keep talking about ‘circumstances’, it’s at the very best a code amber alert to stop, look, and listen or if there are a lot of ‘circumstances’, it’s a code red alert that you’re being too understanding, making too many excuses, and that you’re ignoring yourself…”
That was me. I ignored myself and place a higher value on him because I felt the ‘circumstances’ demanded it.
Here’s what I know now thanks to BR: circumstance had nothing to do with it! He was a selfish arse – had everything to with it. And I was making endless excuses for not having the backbone to put an end to it – had everything to do with it.
And you are right that it doesn’t matter what we put it down to, what reasons/excuses we offer up to the gods on his behalf – it is just no use, it’s just not good enough, and that should be an end to it. I think now that a lot of the problem is that we just don’t have the balls or the backbone to tell these people to take a run and jump. We’d rather make excuses for the crumbs and when all the excuses are fixed and sorted we’ll get the loaf! Not.
LoveyDovey
on 01/09/2012 at 2:52 pm
Exactly….nuff said.
Learner
on 01/09/2012 at 9:32 pm
Fearless,
Thank goodness you realized he was a selfish arse with suspect circumstances and gave him the boot. Now that you are wiser, you do have a backbone, and you are FEARLESS!! Love that name 🙂
runnergirl
on 01/09/2012 at 11:32 pm
Hey Fearless,
Yeah recognizing that their character involved lying, cheating (in my case), and generally being a selfish arse was more difficult than buying the excuses and making excuses. The distinction between character and circumstances is an important one. I’ll be saving my “benefit of the doubt” chips for only those that deserve it. Can’t you just imagine all these ACs on the kurb scratching their excuse filled heads? Welcome back!
runnergirl
on 02/09/2012 at 2:15 am
Okay swear to god (sorry Grace), I just finished typing the message to Fearless above and headed up to get ready to meet a new online guy for a drink when he called. Even though I’ve only spoken with him once briefly, I could tell something was up. It was that tone. Sure enough, he started with a litany of excuses, he woke up late, had to make funeral arrangements, a friend called, another friend needed his help blah, blah. Upshot: he was supposed to get to work at 10am and now it was 4pm and he wouldn’t be able to get his project done by 7pm. I about died trying to stifle my laughter. I used to think Nat was spying on me. Now I think she has the ability to predict my future!
On a serious note, when he started talking there was a tone in his voice that triggered that old feeling when the exMM called to give me the string of excuses as to why he couldn’t do X. I felt my eyes rolling back in my head but this time my heart didn’t sink, I didn’t feel abandoned or rejected and I knew this had NOTHING.TO.DO WITH.ME. So after a little chat, I suggested that he’d better get to work since he was so “busy”, hung up the phone, and flushed. Additionally in our first phone conversation, he spent a good deal of time explaining how “busy” he was which raised the Busy Bee amber flag and there were a few others. But since we’d never met, I gave him the benefit of the doubt. I think amber turned to red for me! Thank you Natalie. You are truly gifted. It’s so empowering to recognize I have a choice whether to engage.
Do ACs have time management issues? Or is that just part and parcel with the excuse thingy. I still haven’t stopped laughing! It feels so different now…thank you.
Fearless
on 02/09/2012 at 2:09 pm
runner
lol! Love your dating stories. I suppose at least he had the decency to phone and let you know he is waste of your time! Keep going as you are and I suspect you’ll meet a decent, genuine guy soon enough – you seem to be creating the right circumstances and you know what you are *not* looking for (that’s a new concept for me too!) Good for you!
A
on 03/09/2012 at 7:33 pm
“Do ACs have time management issues? Or is that just part and parcel with the excuse thingy.”
Good question, Runner. The EU I encountered was certainly this way. The best was him telling me that he was busier than I was *because* he wasn’t working (while I was working 10-12 hours per day).
G-money
on 01/09/2012 at 1:18 pm
After each read of Natalie’s post I always find myself saying “she is an absolute genius” I am constantly in awe of the precise articulation of each read by how accurately it pertains to myself and everybody else here. You are truly genuine. This post inparticular really hit me hard at how often I would tell myself “ah its just his situation – it will pass” and alas it never did. It was a 3 and half year relationship, his three kids and demonic ex wife that I ultimately cringe at, at what I let myself put up with. We broke up visciously over a month ago, I packed and left our house (rented thank god) the next day while he was at work and no contact for three weeks, he tried but I resisted until I got so annoyed and texted back. These last few weeks we were talking about trying to fix it, trying to get insight at where it all went wrong and I was willing to see what it could lead to. But the red flags just seemed to linger and I was trying to be postive and think that these things take time. Yesterday I called it quits for good, the extreme hot and cold, the im tired, im busy, the list goes on, it was just all “poor me” and I never realised how much of that went on during our whole time together, I’d get the brunt of the ex-wife’s episodes, the i’ve been in work all day, I cant talk to you now (yes I would have been in work all day too). Still telling myself it was just the circumstances. Im going back to college for my degree and its going to take a long time and I absolutely can’t wait, when I told him I got my placement (I have to travel for this periodically over the course of two years)he shut down and told me “aw i’d just get in the way” no support, no excitement for me. The previous two years I was in college, when I would be busy wasn’t at all acceptable to him ofcourse. Lastnight before I texted him saying not to contact me ever again, yep didnt even want to see him face to face, thought he didn’t deserve it, he was giving out to me an hour previous for not texting him back to a text he sent of saying “I understand if you dont want to talk to me” that I left HIM hanging. And that was that, I was expecting to be right back at square one today but I feel quite relieved at how truly sure I am now that it’s over. I admit I had hope that maybe just maybe it might be different but everything these last few weeks proved me wrong. I have so much to learn about myself again and for the first time I’m not scared at looking foward. I was his emotional airbag that listened and sympathised with how rough his marriage was, how his family were never there for him, I believed that if he saw how much I was there that it would be reciprocated but it never was, never will. That’s my responsibility to take – “we teach people how to treat us” and I tought him that I would take everything he dished out. Now it’s my time, my life, my values and I know I deserve so much more than what I got. Thank you Nat, keep em coming 🙂
swissmiss
on 01/09/2012 at 6:13 pm
G-money–What a great line: ‘I understand if you don’t want to talk to me’. The long-suffering EU validates your strength and integrity–good on you for resisting! Last night I discovered the MMs old ems on my server. Whoa! It’s all so clear, now that the behavior (his AND mine), has been ‘translated’ here. When I laid out, in one short paragraph, the simple steps it would take for me to continue to stand by him, he responded, “Reasonable”. Talk about validation. I’m practical! Mature! I know how to get us out of this mess! Halloooo? Guess what?! He never said he would actually TAKE them. I am so glad I am not that woman anymore. The constant swarm of wasps in my head has taken flight and built a nest elsewhere.
G-money
on 01/09/2012 at 8:09 pm
It was quite the line alright and then enter the backlash of when I do what the message says and not talk to him. I know he was waiting for the “ofcourse I want to talk to you, dont be silly” that I used to reply with. Good for you for stepping back 🙂 I used to do that too the “what we could try is” and it all coming from my side thinking I was helping. Thats a superb way of putting that “swarm of wasps” is right – so much noise!
miskwa
on 01/09/2012 at 3:02 pm
At one time or another in our lives, we’ve all been treated badly, been hurt, etc. However, that’s no @#$%&* excuse to treat anyone else with anything other than respect. We are not anyones therapist; people are responsible for fixing themselves ; if they can’t, they have no business seeking a relationship. We womyn are taught to nuture, to empathize often at the expense of our own needs. I don’t mind being there for someone in a time of crisis, but some folks seem to be in crisis all the time. That’s Flush time.
Jen
on 01/09/2012 at 4:06 pm
“Sometimes people are truly not in a very good place and can barely see their way to taking care of themselves never mind somebody else. We all handle things differently and some of us are severely impacted by rejection, heartbreak, or stress. This is real, but, and yes it is a big but again, it’s not an acceptable reason for you to put yourself in the front line of fire. You can empathise with their position, but in empathising and recognising their situation, you may have to do what they can’t do for themselves and put an end to this situation for both yours and their sake.”
“I hear too many stories of people supporting people who they feel have a ‘circumstance’ and then when their own circumstance rolls around, like being in ill health, being made redundant, a bereavement, the very people who they expected reciprocal support from are nowhere to be found or making vague excuses. That’s why I warned of the perils of over-giving – we are very understanding of circumstance because we hope that further down the line they’ll do the same or give you the love back that you want.”
Wow. This was a real “aha” article for me, where I just felt the impact of it so much. A lot of them do it too, but not like this. Thank you.
Learner
on 01/09/2012 at 9:42 pm
“We love to give the benefit of the doubt and ‘see the best’, even if that benefit has to be given a thousand times over. We say that they’re shy, tired, overworked, forgetful…needing some more time, have childhood issues, have adult issues, and the list goes on.”
Natalie, I am too quick to give people the benefit of the doubt, even when it’s ridiculously obvious that maybe the person/the urgency of their circumstances *should* be doubted. Not only was I guilty of doing this with the ex, but I feel like several of my friends see me as a bit of an emotional airbag, too. Some of them will go on and on about their “circumstances”, talking about themselves for *ages* and I feel I can hardly get a word in edgewise. I know I can count on them in a crisis, but otherwise I seem to give them the impression that my circumstances are all easy-to-deal-with, and I listen until my ear hurts from the phone pressing against it for so long (or just listening for so long). There are some friends that I don’t like phoning as I find it difficult to get off the phone once they start talking!
I think I need to put some of your advice from the last few posts together – stop overgiving, empathize in a more balanced way that respects my own needs and boundaries, and up my assertiveness. Thank you for the last series of posts – they are really helping in the learning/growing process 🙂
runnergirl
on 02/09/2012 at 6:11 am
Learner, I didn’t realize what was happening when it was happening but I went NC with just about everybody around the same time I finally shut the door with the exMM. I was an emotional airbag and because I’m an attorney, folks used me for legal advice. Finally, I shut the tap for everybody, including my bestie who was a female version of the exMM who really let me down at precisely the thing blew up with the exMM. She just went MIA. I recently received a text msg from a colleague in the middle of the summer about a legal question. I deleted. Just ran into him and he was indignant that I didn’t respond. I just shrugged and said I was “busy”, flipped my ponytail, and walked off. It has been really nice having boundaries. I’m not chasing a guy, chasing a feeling and/or chasing approval. It’s a really peaceful place. I wish that peaceful place for you Learner.
Learner
on 02/09/2012 at 6:30 pm
runnergirl
Wow, going NC with multiple people simultaneously sounds very brave but also scary somehow. How did you ever manage that? Perhaps it’s something I should consider too, but at this point I would fear feeling lonely. There are a couple of close friends who I know are supportive of me that I will keep as friends. But some of the others seem to take advantage of my sympathetic/empathetic nature, and I have known them for many, many years. Perhaps I will try putting boundaries in place first (e.g., get off the phone after 20 mins unless they have a bona fide crisis) and if they respect them – great, if not – NC. It’s funny, I am wearing a pony tail today, and I flipped it right after I read your comment, lol. I am tired of seeking approval from friends, and “chasing a feeling” didn’t get me anywhere, did it? Thanks for your reply and your wish for peace. And thanks for sharing your dating stories with BR. I am not in the place for that step yet, but I enjoy hearing how you are putting Natalie’s principles into effect. Thanks runner 🙂
Nicole
on 02/09/2012 at 2:32 am
It has been hard for me to let go of my relationship. I feel it in my gut, that I can’t be his girlfriend because “his circumstance” is that he doesn’t know how to be in a relationship and doesn’t include me in most of his life activities. But, what makes it harder is that he is a good person, has good values and supports me emotionally when I’m down. I know that he doesn’t mistreat me on purpose,but still I am not his teacher. I am not his therapist. I can’t expect that he’ll learn and mature with me and magically grow the relationship that I want. I know this intellectually, but the hard part of letting go is the feeling of pity and that I know that he tries to be good.
grace
on 02/09/2012 at 9:24 am
Nicole
You can meet someone who is a good person and who supports you and who also consistently shows up. As for him not mistreating you on purpose, I think he does know. that’s why he keeps you at a distance so he can avoid facing it (he just puts you out of his mind) or tell himself that the relationship is not that serious.
there’s trying to be good and there’s really trying. I got counselling, performed my family duties, committed to my job, started making plans with people again. It was work but also enjoyable. Is he really trying or just throwing you a bone every now and then, and not particularly enjoying it or keeping it up cos it’s too much pressure for him?
I don’t know the guy but I did use to be that girl who never introduced my boyfriends to my friends or family. Who kept them outside my life. I may have tried to be good, I expect I did have values somewhere, I could be very giving, kind,and fun. But I didnt want anyone to get too close and would just disappear, emotionally if not physically . It took me over twenty years and literal divine intervention to stop doing that. Yes I had difficult circumstances and issues but i dealt with them when i was finally properly single, on my own. I didnt feel the prompt to do anything about it when I was holding onto my airbags of half hearted relationships. And it is half hearted unless both of you are fully in it.
He may or may not change, it may or may not take a very long time, you or he may or may not then want a different kind of partner, if you still are together by some miracle, it may or may not still work out.
I’ve been following this blog for a few years and there has not been one single instance of a woman saying “I waited x months for him to improve and now the relationship is great”. On the contrary it’s tale after tale of women giving him a second chance and the relationship actually getting worse.
You can of course choose to make all the mistakes yourself and not take to heart other people’s experience or, maybe, learn from someone else’s experiences and cut your losses. Time passes so quick, how much do you want to give to this long shot experiment?
Your pity is better turned to compassion for yourself or volunteer work at the animal shelter. He is a grown adult man.
We want the guarantee of knowing the future if we did x or y or z. Life isn’t like that. Decide what is best for you now and deal with the consequences, good, bad or indifferent. You can handle it.
Nicole
on 02/09/2012 at 5:52 pm
Thank you very much for this reply. I shouldn’t make excuses for him anymore. Even if he is OCD and a recovering alcoholic. I am also recovering from an addiction, but I have more time in recovery. See, those are “circumstances” and excuses that sink me in more.
Worse is, I have been with assclowns and have been in worst relationships. I moved on a lot, with Natalie’s help too and my support group. But this is the first relationship that I have after recovery and recovery from EUM.
I know I have to commit to my decision of letting him go.
I am writing him a letter and hopefully end the relationship with it.
Thank you grace and thanks Natalie, as always!
Sophia
on 02/09/2012 at 11:30 am
Hi Natalie/everyone. Just Beautifulxx.
This post and all the comment I have read so far reached out to me and I receive them with warmth and love.
Being parented by a mother who was verbally and physically abusive and who would reminded us regularly about her abuse, failed relationships, losses and life stresses. Resulted in my raising my sibs (she too busy partying, sleeping or “I need to take care of me) and believing that if I was good then things would change. I wass never good enough in her eyes, the more I tried the worse things got. This pattern went on for years. When I reflected on my 10 year relationship with my ex. I discovered I had attracted a male version of my mother. (Not doing that again).
Over the years when I was told by many how good a listener/support I was and relished in that feedback. Not experienced in sharing or having needs I accepted this role and worked hard to ensure that I remained Queen listener and empathiser. The relationships over those years were most part unfulfilling but at the time I was unclear why. They tended to be verbally abusive. I never flinched and always appologies and strived to do better. A good old friend who heard me being shouted out by another “friend” asked my why I stood for that. Truly at the time I was puzzled by her question so brushed it of.
Counselling, releasing old habits inc;uding friendships resulted in my recognising the origins of the need to over emphathise to the determent of myself.
I now refuse to be a verbal punching bag for anyone. Will deflect any unsavory comment by letting the shot float past me. I will confidently call people out on their behaviours and am unfased if they are upset as a result. Believe me it has taken me a long time to get here. I see no value in being the over giving good child/friend/lover. I am still happy to listen, to a point. I offer no unsolicited advice and would no longer dream of being on the phone for more than 20 minutes listening to poor me, yes I know what needs to be done but that would end the drama and Im not willing to do that type calls. Why, because I value being good to/for me.
High Anxiety
on 02/09/2012 at 4:19 pm
I am ashamed to admit that I have been EU and, in the strictest sense of the word, *using* another person as my emotional airbag off and on for more than five years. If it weren’t for Natalie’s give-it-to-’em-straight blog and comments from you all (her many readers), I might have continued to be okay with this situation for another five years – excusing my behavior under the guise of “friendship.” It all began because he expressed interest in me. I was not interested in him AT ALL, but he continued to call and call and call ad nauseum. I did not cut off contact because I thought it would be “mean” to ignore his calls. BUT also, I had been in the early stages of grieving the death of my beloved mother and, without a doubt, I craved the attention. So on it went, and the situation has become extremely convoluted. It has come to the point where I think he is simply obsessed with not “losing” but getting a return on his investment in me. In fact, within the last month he admitted that his efforts were reliant on the hope I would change my mind. He seems to be a “good” man and we share some of the same values, which makes me think I am being irrational for not wanting to be in a relationship with him…
What’s worse is that I have “dated” others during this timeframe, and I realize now that my emotional unavailability ran parallel to theirs! I never thought of myself as EU… The last of these “dates” ended in June, with me being on the opposite end of the hurt.. So, while I am rebuffing the guy who claims to like me, I am being rebuffed by another I claimed to like. Sound confusing?
I happened to come across this site and the messages here have caused me to question these men, but it has also caused me to question myself. I do NOT like all of the answers, but I find that I do like being honest with myself and the idea of living authentically. It hurts me like h3ll to think of the woman I presented to the my last “dating” partner. And I feel like a total AC to my “friend”. The date and I are NC, and I expressed the sentiments herein to my “friend.” Some weeks ago the “friend” told me that because I wouldn’t be in a relationship with him, he could not talk to me anymore. I agreed with him and we stopped talking. That lasted for ONE week. I ignored his calls at first, but then I gave in and asked him why we began calling again. In short, he wanted a rejection retraction. In an effort (I think) to gauge my feelings for him, he asked me for one of my girlfriend’s phone numbers. At that point, I invoked NC with him. That was ridiculous. We are 30 years old – not in high school…
If I didn’t know a month ago or two months ago, I know now. I am committed to not continuing with the BS – my BS or his BS or the BS of anyone else… I have decided to take as much time as I need to learn to live authentically; love, care, respect, and trust myself; and develop and implement boundaries in my life. I am ashamed to admit that these have been problems for me for at the last FIFTEEN years! But I am no longer that woman! I deserve and want to be better!
Becca
on 02/09/2012 at 10:19 pm
This post is music to my ears and food for my soul!
Jackie
on 03/09/2012 at 1:23 am
Anyone here has ever been in a relationship with a bipolar man? I spent almost two years empathising with this huge “circumstance”. One year of on and off relationship, and one year post breakup. I’m still recovering from everything he put me through, and everything i did to myself, by being too weak to leave and flush him out of my life.
Any experience with bipolar would be sooo welcome. thank you.
Mymble
on 03/09/2012 at 7:49 am
Jackie,
My father is bipolar (until recently unmedicated) and also alcoholic. I watched a string of women move through his life. Clever, attractive, nice women who for some inexplicable reason seemed not to notice his severe issues, or perhaps thought they could put up with the “bad” in order to get the “good”. (He was also charming and fun, at times and was a reasonably successful academic) They ALL left him in the end. Maybe they thought they could fix him, I really don’t know what they were thinking. Every new relationship or marriage was a forgone conclusion, as far as I was concerned. He is properly medicated now, age 67, and sober. A miracle. But he is an altogether different person. He was actually not in a relationship when this happened, he hit rock bottom with no-one to look after him and was hospitalised several times first. The lessons are 1. You cannot fix people, ever. 2. Its a poor strategy to think you can put up with abusive behaviour in order to get the benefits of the good, fun times. Whether the person can’t, or won’t, mend their ways ultimately the outcome is the same, unless and until THEY decide to change. And you hanging around may actually enable them continue as they are.
Mymble
on 03/09/2012 at 8:06 am
And I would also add that he is like a different person now – one that I don’t altogether recognise. The “fun and charming” parts may have been him cycling through his “manic” phases. As he said himself he used to feel he was invincible and invulnerable. That confidence is attractive, magnetic even, but it
isn’t healthy and he doesn’t have it any more. I feel so bruised and damaged by his ups and downs, his nice and nasty, that I am very distrustful.
On the upside, I have a horror of men who show the slightest sign of alcohol problems!
Jackie
on 11/09/2012 at 5:18 pm
I think when i met him, and he was fun and amazingly Prince Charming, he was manic. Of course i didnt know then, but now i can admit it because i know all the signs. I’ve become an expert at this mental illness, although it did surprise and HURT me every single time.
Also, it’s difficult to admit it is a real “mental illness” because it can be so subtle, so hidden, until it explodes in your face.
What hurt me the most was his hyper sexuality symptom when he was manic. I suspected him of flirting with other women and doing some really dodgy things behind my back, but i will never get the 100% confirmation.
When you said: “I feel so bruised and damaged by his ups and downs, his nice and nasty, that I am very distrustful.” Same here! It took me a long time to learn to trust again. He was extremely nasty and emotionally violent when he broke up with me and left brutally (twice). Third time he came back, after 6 months, i turned him down. But it was an extremely difficult decision; i still wonder today if his illness was ‘real’ and dangerous and if he was really ‘that bad’.
Jackie
on 11/09/2012 at 5:09 pm
Dear Mymble,thank you so much for your sincere and helpful response. I apologize for not replying sooner. I was thinking about what you said and wasn’t ready to answer because i couldnt accept that you were SO right. When you said “It’s a poor strategy to think you can put up with abusive behaviour in order to get the benefits of the good, fun times” it really made me think because that’s exactly what i was doing.
Everytime i’m tempted to go back or to break my NC rule, i’m almost only remembering the good times, because as you said, when biplar people are good, they’re wonderful. But you’re right.It’s not a sustainable strategy to WAIT and wait and wait for the good times, while enduring emotional abuse.
Mymble
on 03/09/2012 at 12:43 pm
There was an is nothing that can be done, no way of interacting with the person or managing situations if the person is not themselves interested in change. And if they did change, you might find that they weren’t the person you wanted either. If you’re obsessed with someone who is mentally ill, and you have only ever known them when they are ill, I would guess that the hook, for you, is some aspect of their illness.
grace
on 03/09/2012 at 1:05 pm
mymble
Astute observation.
In my twenties, I was someone who hadn’t recovered from an unhappy childhood, anxiety, fantasized a lot, had on-and-off depresssion,and felt lonely, empty and isolated. So, am I going to be attracted to:
a) a nice, normal steady guy with no issues OR
b) a MM who told me he was a recovering alcoholic
That’s not to say the mentally afflicted can’t have a good relationship but they need to be committed to managing it, and the other person must have rock solid boundaries and not be someone who makes it all about them.
And there’s still a limit. If, in his hyper periods he likes to have sex with other women and gambles away the house, I suggest that’s more than any sane person can handle.
Mymble
on 03/09/2012 at 8:04 pm
Grace,
He wasn’t a cheat or a gambler! But still, impossible to be in a long term relationship with. I saw the same pattern with these women play out over and over again. Probably they all thought they were different, they could make it work, and that all the exes were crazy. It’s like it says here, people have their behaviours, which they repeat over and over, and it really isn’t specific to a particular partner or relationship. Having seen it played out over 40 years, it’s been like groundhog day.
Tinkerbell
on 03/09/2012 at 12:42 am
Thief, liar, cheat. They’re one and the same. A thief is a liar and a cheat. Think about it. Their behavior is interchangeable. The only difference is the fallout which results from their twisted antics and the degree of pain they inflict. That’s the way I’ve seen and experienced it.
PurpleLily
on 03/09/2012 at 8:10 am
Emotional airbags…LOL, awesome term! It a great learning experience reading the posts here-thank you. Thank you NML for another post that hits home, big time.
I had not experienced someone like this until I met my recent EUM. He talked about himself ALLLLL the time. By the end of the first date I knew when he lost his virginity, his issues with his mum, how he was poorly treated by his two ex-GFs, how he hates paying taxes, wishes he had better teeth…etc etc. You get the idea. And I thought “woah, he seems really honest and happy to share….”. *Bah-bum!*
The next few dates were more about him and me even saying “hey, you can ask me anything you want, I’ll always give you an honest answer”. And he saying “yes, but I want it to happen naturally, I’ll ask as and when I have questions” *no you wont* . He shared more of his fears and anxieties; I listened, tried to understand and be supportive (as I would with an acquaintance) even though this massive voice kept saying “Why dont you want to learn about me?”. Thanks to BR, I now know.
I guess as in Selkie’s case, the moment I told him the only thing about myself (and I told him just ONE thing) – that I had been depressed a few years ago after a bad relationship but that I was proud of myself for having worked hard and gotten better. That I feel stronger than ever…I didn’t even get a glance (not even a stare!). I got a shrug and he continued to watch TV. That did it for me. I don’t need him to take care of me or listen to me (I have a therapist and amazing friends) but the lack of a reaction was shocking. Somehow, the fact that he has crooked teeth triumphed over the fact that I had been thru a tough life situation and gotten thru it with a sheer amount of hard work?
This is what they are. EUMs. They need someone who plugs their attention to them at all time. This is a 33 yr old who cant possibly be more than 16 in his head. I wouldn’t even know how to measure his selfishness, his self-centered and narky behavior.
To think that this is just ONE of the issues he had, make me grateful..it reminds me that I dogged a nasty bullet.
cc
on 03/09/2012 at 2:41 pm
brava, PL-
would that i had handled the ex-EUM the same way. he wasn’t quite as bad as this guy, but along the same lines in this regard. FLAG! among many! (facepalm)
Robin
on 03/09/2012 at 6:21 pm
Wow. You are describing my current bf to a T. Before, I thought he was nice, but our conversations have actually been pretty superficial. He shares ALL his problems: how his parents are mean, how his work life sucks, how his friends are going through drama. But, when I recently had my own troubles where I really felt I needed to stay home and I wasn’t able to hang out with him and our friends like we’d originally planned…
the first thing to come out of his mouth was, “What are our friends going to think?” and no sympathy from him either either. (Of course, OUR friends, if they’re reasonable, would understand my situation.)
PurpleLilly, I am so glad you found this out early, and not 3 years into the relationship like I am right now. I must have been seeing him through heart-shaped glasses and have only recently been emotionally available and mature enough to be able to see things for what they really are!
PurpleLily
on 04/09/2012 at 9:08 am
@ cc: Thanks for your words. Ugh. How I wish I knew it was a red flag…but I now know and wont let this happen again. Sad thing is, even now, after 3 months NC, it still brings me tears.
@ robin: Im sorry you are still having to deal with this man!!Are you looking to leave-please do leave, dont let him get any more of you. He isisnt worth a moment of your life. It seems nice when they share and tell you, but there is nothing beyond that because the sharing is ONE sided.
Please take care of yourself and get out as soon as you can.
Big hugs , ladies.
natslayer
on 03/09/2012 at 11:17 am
Yikes. Last week I had an encounter with someone I had held up on a pedestal for 5 years. Afterwards he said he wanted to start seeing me as more than friends, but guess what? He became extremely distant.It’s horrid realising that the person you revered isn’t as nice or mature as you previously thought prior to the “No Pants Dance” but I told him yesterday that he blew it and on NO account will I be going down that road again. We will be friends, albeit, without any future sex. I deserve someone who is interested in me, and willing to go the distance instead of disappearing. Thanks NML.
grace
on 03/09/2012 at 11:53 am
nats
Are you sure you want to be his friend? I think when we keep people in our lives who disrespect us that we are sending a message to OURSELVES. We cast ourselves in that forgiving, understanding, nice person role and get stuck there. Sometimes we like having men in our lives, even loser men, as emotional airbags. That can stop us from meeting new men, why would we want to when we have our comfy (or not so comfy) airbag? We fear the loss of not having a man in our lives but maybe we need to feel it to do something about it. I do have brothers, though, so I’ll always have men in my life barring death.
I speak as someone who has forgiven my mother for the childhood abuse, so it’s not like I’m an unforgiving person. She’ll always be my mother but these men – really, what are they to us?
natslayer
on 03/09/2012 at 2:05 pm
Hiya Grace, thanks for responding – this is the first time he ever disrespected me by never responding, so at the moment I am in two minds about keeping in contact with him.Hmm, you’ve definitely given me some food for thought there, thank you 🙂 xx
dancingqueen
on 03/09/2012 at 3:13 pm
Hey Natslayer,
I have a couple of exes that I have in my life, but that was after a long break and the breakups and relationships were really respectful. It sounds like this guy was disrespectful; you might not need to go official NC with him, but phasing him out of your life might not be a bad idea. I have a recent ex still around on the perimeters of my social circle ( again decent breakup) but I try really not deal with him. It is funny even though we left on good terms I just feel like there is tension there between us and it makes it less enjoyable to be around him. Maybe that is just how those things go…
natslayer
on 03/09/2012 at 3:57 pm
Dancing Queen, thank you. I think perhaps this friendship was formed out of unrequited attraction when we met whilst both travelling years back. I think I will be phasing him out after this, as he clearly has shown me no respect, and hell be damned if I let him back in after this. I thought at first it was because he is preparing for a new job and that he was generally slow at getting back to people, then I pulled myself back and realised, hang on a hot minute – he hasn’t got five mins to make a phone call? I had started to accept crumbs and then saw the red flags coming up. We should be very wary of people who seem all sweetness and light on the surface.Another lesson learned thanks to all the ladies of BR. xx
On Leaving Sugarland
on 03/09/2012 at 4:59 pm
“We fear the loss of not having a man in our lives but maybe we need to feel it to do something about it.”
Yes, I am facing this fear right now.
It FEELS weird. Sometimes I get these waves of loneliness and sadness, and my life seems out of balance, and I can’t seem to re-gain my balance.
Hmmm, I am alone. It is just me, but hey, I have been the one constant in my life. I don’t feel so afraid about it just being me, but it does feel weird, so I guess I’ll just let if feel weird, and …and ….
FEELINGS, I’ve worked so hard to be able to feel them…dropping my addictions, bad coping mechanisms, etc…facing patterns to me are sometimes the same as facing feelings…facing pain….
So, this must be what “they” mean by walking through the pain…not avoiding…not denying….
I wonder how much of this comes down to learning how to deal with our own feelings, and just feel them.
I know I am not my feelings, but my feelings are my feelings, but I am now really getting how I don’t have to act on my feelings…not stop my feelings…I can freely allow them to exist without squashing them or denying them or acting on them…let them breathe without them completely consuming me.
I am honoring my feelings as best I can, but my beliefs and values have to be considered. I have to use my head, but feelings sometimes come as fast as thoughts….Sheeeeeeeeeesh……
And I found myself “chasing a feeling.” I was fantasizing about some imaginary guy who was expressing his undying love to me in a heated moment of passion, but the whole time I am doing this a part of me is watching me doing it, and I realized that as Natalie has written over and over “I was chasing a feeling,” and it was an aha moment for me…the Dreamer that I am was getting high on my way to work, just trying to feel good while bored, or maybe it was more than that I think I was trying to compensate for not having a man in my life by making one up, so I don’t have to face the fact that I don’t have one; I don’t have to face that loss; I can just pretend that Mr. Imaginary is my guy.
Oh, no…I don’t want that, so I don’t have a man, and right now I don’t know what I am going to do about it because I don’t think I am ready, but I think I am ready really…it’s just what am I going to do about it? Am I going to get off of my butt and take some positive action in that direction? No, I know I am not going to do that because right now, I have some things that I want to do for myself that I am having enough trouble getting myself to take action on, but why do I think that I can’t do both? Or why don’t I want to do both? Er,….baby steps……….
Allison
on 03/09/2012 at 6:42 pm
Nut,
Also, are you still seeking attention and validation?
Ask yourself, why you would consider someone a friend who treated you so poorly after intimacy. Doesn’t sound like a very nice guy!
pinkpanther
on 03/09/2012 at 3:56 pm
I’m never going to be anyone’s emotional air bag ever again.
thanks natalie
natslayer
on 03/09/2012 at 9:48 pm
Hi Allison, not sure if your response was to me? Last week I was seeking validation to a point, but I decided to listen to my instinct and….stop. its a hideous feeling realising that the Nice Guy was an illusion, and now trying not to rationalize his behaviour.
Allison
on 04/09/2012 at 12:45 am
Hi Natslayer,
I think I need glasses 🙁
Glad you recognized who this clown is 🙂
natslayer
on 04/09/2012 at 11:47 am
Allison, Dancing Queen and Grace; just defriended him from the ol’ FB after umming and aahing. My thoughts against doing it were “well, he isn’t all bad” and “what if he changes?” Talk about pipe dream. If I stayed friends with him I would be telling him, “yeah, the way you treated me after that night is fine, please, keep on doing it”. I would never put up with this from my girlfriends, why the hell is he so special? Thank you girls, and thank you NML. I feel sad at having to do it, but all thst is are sugarcoated memories. xx
Allison
on 05/09/2012 at 4:42 am
Nats,
You did the right thing!!!!
Good for you!
Tinkerbell
on 05/09/2012 at 8:41 pm
Hi All,
On a recent post I talked about this guy who has moved and who I sent a BD card and did not hear from him for awhile. I guess it was fast forwarding to send someone a card whom I have only talked to online and not met in person. Well, after he gave me his excuse for not responding and it was all cleared up with a supposedly better understanding, he has disappeared again. So, now I see he is EU. I am really pissed and want to write him and tell him about himself, but I know that silence is the best revenge. If he calls he will not reach me because I have caller id and do not intend to answer. But, it’s so infuriating to be on the receiving end of lukewarm (at best) treatment. I didn’t have to acknowledge his bd, much less send a card. I’m still getting a lot of attention from guys on the site, but it seems to fall off when I respond affirmatively. Now, I don’t trust my own judgement and feel that I should just give up on all of them. I’m not a person who deals with defeat very well. It hurts.
grace
on 05/09/2012 at 9:09 pm
Tinkerbell
This is way too much hurt for someone you haven’t even met. It was only a birthday card. God only knows what you would do if you’d kissed him! Sometimes we are simply determined to feel rejected. He doesn’t know you, you spent a few dollars on a card, a stamp and walked to the postbox. It’s not a big deal and he doesn’t owe you an explanation. If you feel this fragile I think online is not for you, maybe don’t date yet. How about a book group or an evening class or meet up? meet real people in the real world,that way a phone conversAtion won’t be the highlight of your year. It’s not about husband hunting. Just meet people, men or women,
I say this as someone who used to have no life and now am out several times a week. And have a boyfriend. Don’t hate me. I’m just telling you there is hope. Honestly, if I can do the work and meet someone, anyone can.
selkie
on 05/09/2012 at 9:38 pm
Tinkerbell, flutter your magical wings and just move forward. It isn’t rejection. You never even met. It’s only imaginary rejection in an imaginary, hoped for, but shallow at best, connection. You sent a birthday card, your nice, it’s okay to be nice, but he didn’t care, so now you know what kind of man he is. Be glad he showed himself early. And it had nothing to do with you, he is probably doing the same thing to other women he meets online. I agree with Grace…..go out and meet real people. You’ll make new friends and enjoy yourself in the process if you join some groups to help facilitate it (like Meet Up, volunteering in a subject you’re interested in, community classes). Let the relationship part of it happen more naturally while you’re out there having fun and investing in you. I’m not a fan of on line dating, it seems to much like catalog shopping to me. Although I am enjoying Runnergirl’s stories and am learning from them vicariously while she puts her BR knowledge into action.
beautifulsoul
on 05/09/2012 at 11:04 pm
Natalie, I dated a chopper at my job. When I was talking to him it was so painful to see him chase after other girls in the office, (right in front of me!!! or say little passive aggressive mean things to break me down. When I finally broke it off w/ him & began “no contact” I felt like I only had a sliver of self esteem left…….
He’s now moved onto dating another girl in the office- after I cut contact w/ him for 3 months & him & his friends (& of course new girlfriend) have talked about me & spread rumors in the office. I tried to contact him & make peace (really, I was just trying to gain his validateion so they could stop talking about me). After I reached out(via text: asking if we can just keep things peaceful for the sake of us still having to work together), He made it seem like I was trying to get back w/ him & over dramatized the event: turning a crumb into a flippin’ loaf!!! It’s so frustrating to be judged wrongly 🙁
And here’s the kicker:
even after all this, 7 months later it still hurts to see him & the new girl. I don’t want him. I’ve grown too much to allow somebody like that in my life. But when I see him & the new girl all happy, it makes me feel like, “what was wrong with me, that we couldn’t be that happy together.” & when I hear the gossip, it makes me think: “The least he can do is not be so friggin mean!!!!!!” .
I do take into account that I’m still single & hoping & praying for a good man to come into my life, where I will be genuinely happy & not just “addicted to the high” happy
I’m at work now & I’ve grown to the point where I could cut a guy like that off before I slept with him. Only Thanks to finding your websites & picking up on red flags. (no, I did not sleep w/ him- Hallelujah!!!!!)
I just wish it would stop hurting. I still get attention from guys in the office & when I go out but what is it about this guy to where I still even give a flyin’ hoot? In the past I would’ve translated it as love, but I know better now. I returned to no contact after the last contact fiasco & now I wish I could just shake this thing, literally lol
grace
on 07/09/2012 at 10:45 am
beautiful
my abusive/chopper/whatever ex met someone shortly after I left him, and now they are married. I could ask myself why he was nice to her and not me (assuming he is. Who can tell for sure?). But I do remember someone telling me after we broke up “He shouldn’t be with you. He needs to be with some dumb girl who works in a shop.” At the time I thought “that is not a nice thing to say about girls who work in shops”. The woman he married worked – in a shop.
The person who said this must have known about the new woman and was trying to tell me not to take it personally.
I hope the ex doesn’t torment and chop his. Maybe he HAS changed. Also, I think it’s likely that he doesn’t find her a threat as he did me. Please no one get the idea that I think I’m better than his wife. I don’t. But sometimes we offend them just by being us. It doesn’t make us lesser people.
we can’t and don’t want to watch their next relationship for x years to see how it pans out. We need to get on with our own lives and not get any satisfaction or otherwise from how they’re doing. Nothing to do with us anymore.
For what it’s worth, the new man loves that I’m intelligent and doesn’t feel threatened by it at all. There is someone, many someones, who can appreciate you. Let this one go.
beautifulsoul
on 12/09/2012 at 8:55 pm
grace, Thank you for your words. I didn’t think I was holding on anymore, but after realizing I was,It feels good to Let.it.go.
~Thank you also for sharing your story, I’m happy you found somebody who can appreciate you for you & not try to bring you down to build themselves up.
Todd
on 07/09/2012 at 4:24 am
Just wanted to thank Natalie and all of you. I have been in a fog for a long time, not realizing what I was doing wrong, over and over again. Natalie gave words to what I felt but could not face. Your stories made feel connected, and gave me hope that I can overcome these emotional and behavioral obstacles. I am only 2 weeks into NC, and have an uphill battle, but I know when the time comes, I will have boundaries, and will not let her “situation”, or actionless words, or push/pull behavior make me let her walk over me. I will love, care and respect myself so that I will be enough for me. I am scared, but I am also excited. At times, I am desperately lonely, but Natalie’s posts and your stories ground me, and bring me back to the real here and now. Thanks for listening. Good luck to all of you beautiful souls.
JR
on 12/09/2012 at 10:42 pm
Hang in there. I’m NC right now too — about 2 weeks and it’s very hard but it will work eventually with our integrity and self respect intact!We will get through this!
JR
on 13/09/2012 at 2:54 am
NML thank you for writing this one. Like many here, it strikes a chord. I’ve been NC with AC now since a pathetic text exchange on Sept 3 (mere crumbs from him) and I’ve been talking myself out of trying to smooth things over and thinking of ways to get good with him again but then I remind myself…hey wait I didn’t anything wrong and I don’t need to apologize. What would I apologize for? Falling for him? Well maybe I should apologize to myself. He was the one who was the AC and he was the one who took liberties where he shouldn’t and said there wasn’t anything special about me and then treated me like I was an old piece of trash. He was the one who would text late at night for a booty call. He was the one who, in the end, called me horrible names. My biggest mistake was liking the guy, giving him little gifts, making him dinner, letting him rant, treating him like he was someone who deserved me. Those were my crimes. Every day is a struggle to not text or email or stop by his apartment or go where I know he will be…but I’m getting there…one day at a time.
MRWriter
on 11/10/2012 at 6:46 am
Guil to the T. Yep. Mega-empathic here. I actually take pleasure in listening and helping others (platonic or romantic) that I often forget to empathize myself first…then take care of others. This is till an ongoing challenge that I’ve been struggling with for many years. I can count on one hand how many friends will listen and help me but can count on both hands and feet how many people expect me to listen/empathize/help them.
This is not a quality I want to totally write-off but it is a trait that seems to blur my boundaries and give people tacit permission to step over and wipe their problems off on me.
And nary the return in investment. Add to that, if they’re coming to me for help with problems that really don’t qualify for assistance, I have to ask myself should I even want these same people to give me help or advice?
But I’d appreciate being heard. I just went NC with my EU 3 months and some change days and boy, has this site helped. I think I could get a PH.D in EUs from the School of Natalie Kick Ass! Wish I had found this site 4 years ago after ending yet another EU and going cold turkey from relationships only to be smacked in the face with another one all these years later. I think I stayed because I thought I had learned, loved and nurtured myself in all that down time. I think I did but the universe or myself was just testing me yet again. I’ve even questioned if I’m a covert EU but I don’t believe so.
At least I’m quicker and not choosing to ignore the amber to red flags anymore. I got out of this recent EU that could only talk about himself, inundate me with constant emails throughout the day (again all focused on him) and send photos of his son I wasn’t prepared to meet until I felt secure we were solid. He foisted his crap and took no genuine interest in me. It was all about him 27/7. And when I tried to present something about me he’d find a way to bring the subject back to…yep…him. Every damn time.
That he never took me out to dinner in the 4 months we were together, (I did once), that he never seemed to care about what he was bringing to the table (if anything) and that the relationship (I cringe to call it that) was so completely one-sided saw me finally cutting my losses (which weren’t too much so I didn’t over-invest) and jog. Jog fast.
Got stung with his passive aggressiveness at the end–a hallmark of assclowns, narcs, and EUs as I soon discovered when Googling my woes online in sheer frustration.
I’m proud that I enacted NC without Natalie’s help. I found this site about a month ago. I’ve practiced and learned the art of NC (make sure you’re serious) over the years and was surprised to see it being recommended on here.
I listen to my gut fairly well, but silenced it through too much empathy and resignation from years of feeling forced to lower my standards until…well, there weren’t many left.
No more! I know what’s right and what doesn’t feel right. I suffer a little from the desire of him “getting it” if not for me than for the betterment of his self only to recently let go of that resolve. It’s his life, his self and his lesson to learn–not mine to impose or take credit.
As far as my empathy, I’m learning how to keep it in check and still give to those who deserve it and give to me in return. I empathize with my EU to a certain degree, but now from a safe distance and 20/20 vision. I feel bad for a person wrapped up in selfishness, stinginess, and self-absorption to the exclusion of love, trust and respect. But empathy doesn’t mean apathy…I don’t have to soak in his pettiness anymore.
I’m free. There are days when I don’t feel entirely free, but I push through by asking myself is this the man you deserve? No. Did this man recognize what you were willing and showed by word and deed to offer? No. Did this man appreciate you? Hell to the no. Then why even worry about whether or not he “gets it?” He wasn’t able to get me so why would he get losing me. There’s probably a wounded ego in there somewhere but being with him would have submerged my ego entirely. Yeah, I’d rather keep my ego in tact, my empathy in check and my sights set on a brighter future whether it’s alone or not. No EU man is worth the best of us when all they offer is the worst of themselves.
Thank you, Natalie. Without you, this NC and EU would’ve sent me double-guessing my first and real instincts. I’m so glad I’m not alone and so grateful that I can have a clarion call here. It’s made a world of difference. Namaste!
I’ve been running Baggage Reclaim since September 2005, and I’ve spent many thousands of hours writing this labour of love. The site has been ad-free the entire time, and it costs hundreds of pounds a month to run it on my own. If what I share here has helped you and you’re in a position to do so, I would love if you could make a donation. Your support is so very much appreciated! Thank you.
Copyright Natalie Lue 2005-2025, All rights reserved. Written and express permission along with credit is needed to reproduce and distribute excerpts or entire pieces of my work.
Manage Cookie Consent
To provide the best experiences, we use technologies like cookies to store and/or access device information. Consenting to these technologies will allow us to process data such as browsing behaviour or unique IDs on this site. Not consenting or withdrawing consent, may adversely affect certain features and functions.
Functional
Always active
The technical storage or access is strictly necessary for the legitimate purpose of enabling the use of a specific service explicitly requested by the subscriber or user, or for the sole purpose of carrying out the transmission of a communication over an electronic communications network.
Preferences
The technical storage or access is necessary for the legitimate purpose of storing preferences that are not requested by the subscriber or user.
Statistics
The technical storage or access that is used exclusively for statistical purposes.The technical storage or access that is used exclusively for anonymous statistical purposes. Without a subpoena, voluntary compliance on the part of your Internet Service Provider, or additional records from a third party, information stored or retrieved for this purpose alone cannot usually be used to identify you.
Marketing
The technical storage or access is required to create user profiles to send advertising, or to track the user on a website or across several websites for similar marketing purposes.
The theme of this post really hits home for me right now. After a casual encounter with this man I really thought I hit it off with, I texted the next morning and received some inexplicably rude harsh texts from him. I started rationalizing his behavior thinking he must be stressed out from work, I am being too clingy, etc. But whether I was being clingy or not doesn’t justify the extent to which he rudely insulted me, called me names, acting as if the previous interaction wasn’t important and that I wasn’t important to him at all, even though he acted so differently before. It’s the usual tale, of course, but it was so much more ruder and disgusting than I had ever expected from any self-respecting human being. Depersonalization of these types of events really helps. Stepping back, recognizing that I had these red flags before but I chose not to follow through because I wanted to justify this abusive behavior, because the attraction/chemistry had been so strong, and of course because the hot/cold pattern really appealed to my familiarity with domestic abuse in my own home. It felt familiar and I was playing the victim like my mother again, pretending that if I apologized enough, if I was better, less “crazy” less clingy I would deserve better treatment. Even though I can see it in a nuanced way and take accountability for my own clingy behavior I know that his behavior towards me is completely unacceptable. The hardest part is breaking the pattern even with the knowledge–I feel almost prewired to tread that path of self-destructiveness especially since I use that impulsivity to cope with other painful events. Any insight or comments on this type of situation would be wonderful.
@ Courtney : I come from a family of domestic violence and my mother sounds exactly like yours, so I wanted to share a few thoughts (no master at life experiences, just some thoughts here..)
No one and I mean NO ONE can talk to you that way. There isisnt a problem severe enough in this WORLD for someone to behave that way. It is so easy for us to feel like a victim because its what we saw of our mothers. But you know what, we are not them – there is nothing worse than putting ourselves in the spot of a victim and crying about it.
Obviously, this man is a super d-bag and there is nothing good that would have come out of your interaction with him. Doesnt matter how great in bed he is or how attracted you are to each other. And because I have been where you are , I would kindly ask you to think about seeking professional help – you dont have to appologise to someone like him in the hope that it will get better – you did nothing wrong (and it doesnt matter how clingy you are!).
It took me 2+ years of therapy to build my self esteem to the point that I can now see that until and unless I am most atrocious GF on the planet (and even then..) no one gets to treat me that way. You do have other painful events to deal with and once you work on those, these will start to fall into place. Please dont give up, give yourself more love and know that you deserve a gazillion times better.
Sending warm hugs.
courtney-
i’m so glad PL responded, i tried about 10 times to respond and failed each time because i couldn’t BELIEVE how that guy treated you and i couldn’t find the words you needed. PL found them, she’s exactly right.
he’s PSYCHO, and his reaction is ALL him, and NO you. you were NOT clingy. he’s a absolute d-bag. i’m sorry he treated you that way.
now you know that the chemistry you felt with him was your abused past feeling at home with his crazy abusiveness – its all subconscious. google “traumatic bond” – some lovely on BR introduced that concept here (who was it?) and it fits. unfortunately, what feels familiar, like “home” to adults who were abused as children is exactly what you found with this guy – abuse. so we need to go sllllooooowwwwwllllyyy in dating situations until we get enough of a sense about a person to ensure they are decent, kind and open-hearted. i know this was just a casual encounter, but maybe these are a not a good idea for us – since our meters can be so off until we spend years retraining them, we can make miscalculations about guys of such great magnitude as to have devastating consequences to us.
was it grace’s niece who said, when asked how she picked her grade school boyfriend, 1- he is nice to her and 2- he doesn’t freak her out. those are our criteria.
be easy on you, courtney. its him, not you. you just need to pick better guys. jeeez, what a dick.
big hugs
Thank you cc! I’ve written a longer response to all of you below but just wanted to say I so appreciate your insight and compassion.You’re right about the idea of “traumatic bond.” I am already in therapy for issues related to my dysfunctional family so I will definitely be investigating that further in future sessions. It was quite the traumatic experience because I already suffer from anxiety when it comes to sex, sexual issues, etc. This was one of my first intimate experiences outside of a long-term relationship so I felt so shocked and scarred when I received this reaction from him, especially when I felt like I had taken a big step towards making a sexual choice on my own (most of the time I always felt pressured to do things; this was one of the few times I felt like I wanted to engage). But yes everyone else has told me the same–it is his problem, not mine. My responsibility is feeling better about myself and treating myself well and not chasing after dirtbags like him 🙂 Thank you so much for your comment, it really helped!!!
Be careful of the tendency to apologize. I found out the hard way that whenever you apologize to someone abusive or who doesn´t respect you, he´ll treat you even worse. Because he then sees the fact that you were willing to bend your hand as a weakness, and a green light to abuse you even more.
I also discovered that when you don´t go into apologizing mode with a bully (like my former employer) he will be angry at first, but then you can cut yourself off more easily. And with your self esteem and dignity intact.
Hi Lilia,
Thanks for your comment! You’re right about the apologizing. This person seemed so douchey that I was afraid he would say more hurtful things so I finally just stopped even trying. Silence worked better in this particular interaction and he is out of my life…I am so happy about that. 🙂
Hi PurpleLily,CC and Lilia,
I will be writing individual responses but just wanted to say collectively–Thanks so much for your compassionate responses. I really appreciate it. I actually ran into him again the night I wrote that post when I went out with my friends dancing (he knew from previous conversation that I was going to be at this place but chose to come with his friends nonetheless). I had two choices, both of which were acceptable: leave or keep enjoying myself. I chose to stay and enjoy myself. It was hard, since he was flirting with other girls shamelessly in the background. But at the end I succeeded in having a good time and living in the moment. I totally ignored him when he tried to approach me at the end of the night, besides giving him a dirty glare that basically said, “Back off.” I danced with other guys who treated me nicely (one was so nice and told me I was gorgeous and deserved better) and all in all I coped with it really well with the support of the all the amazing people around me. And now I come online to see this supportive outpouring…I am so grateful for all of you and this community. I have cut off all contact with him and will be going NC on his abusive ass. Thank you, lovely, insightful, strong people!!! 🙂
Thank you purplelily! I’ve written you all a longer comment below. But I wanted to say thank you for sharing your experience with me. I am currently getting help and it has definitely affected my perspective. In the past I would have felt helpless and would have kept chasing this abusive EUM. Now I know I have more resources to turn to and wonderful people to support me–both in real life and also in communities like this 🙂 I am very lucky I am getting this insight while I am still young (although I know it is never too late to start treating yourself well) so I can take it all in and make better choices in the long run. I can choose not to be a victim and rather be an agent of change in my own life. Thank you 🙂
@Courtney
I just went through a similar experience with an ‘ex’ that I had always had a good relationship with, or so I thought.
After we both pushed the reset button, I ended it with him because I deemed him a virtual sex freak who was only interested in having virtual sex with me, and I was feeling pressured and bullied into having virtual sex with him…so, I impolitely told him so in an email. He responded with a heavy stream of extremely abusive emails; he had never done anything like that before, etc.
I was really upset and hurt by his actions, but yet, I remember a part of me wanting to apologize because I figured it was my fault because after all I sent him one of my playful but mean emails, and I felt this strong need to make things ‘right’ from some place inside of me that was in total conflict with another part of me that, like you, knew that his behavior had nothing to do with me, and was unacceptable.
But yet this other part of me was still telling me to apologize to him because I FELT it was my fault. In that moment, I think I could have gone either way.
Well, in one of his hateful emails, he ‘told’ me that he knew he was behaving badly, but that I was the “f**d up one,” and he was simply reacting to me, and I did feel like the f**d up one, who simply couldn’t just tell this man in a polite manner that I wasn’t interested in virtual sex, and that I wanted a real relationship with him.
But, the lights came on when he blamed me for his reaction: I really BELIEVE that people are responsible for how they react, after all was I not holding myself accountable for sending my mean email, even though he was acting like a virtual sex freak and bully? So, wth?
And, as he continued to pounce on me with more and more hateful emails…quite graphic…I don’t know why I kept reading them, maybe it was the shock. I just thought there is no way in hell I am apologizing to this guy.
I realized that apologizing felt comfortable to me…my uncomfortable comfort zone. It was something that I thought would put me back in balance internally…difficult to explain, but I know that it has to do with my childhood, and how I had to deal with my dysfunctional environment as a CHILD.
I deliberately remind myself that I am not a child anymore, and I don’t live with abusive people anymore, and I don’t have to use my childhood survival skills anymore.
My beliefs have changed, but I still find that I must confront old patterns by going through them in some way, and deciding to break the pattern in that moment by making choices in direct opposition to repeating the pattern…when I feel the need or call to repeat the pattern, I make a deliberate decision to go against the pattern, and it requires me stepping outside of my comfort zone…sometimes extremely difficult and painful, but DOABLE..baby steps, baby steps….
I haven’t gotten through all of the comments but I wanted to write to you Courtney. I experienced something very similar recently and it was horrendous. I was seeing him on and off for about a month and half this summer (on and off because he was hot and cold) and he turned out to be a cruel, dirtbag too. I felt we had this incredible connection — the physical stuff was out of this world. But he turned out to be a total player and he was playing me along with many others. And he has since called me horrible things too online. I was shocked! I am no contact with him now and he recently saw me with a nice guy which seems like poetic justice…but believe it or not I am still struggling with staying NC. As horrible as he has been I still feel the pull. When I read your post, I thought how awesome that you saw it right away, Yes it’s probably my history of childhood and all of that that has made me gravitate to this type of treatment. I guess the important thing is..we now recognize this in us and we can change the pattern and work toward being in healthier situations. So as we work to stay away from these damn dirtbags, I hope that special someone in your near future shows you love and kindness that you deserve. Best to you in the future!
I’ve been empathizing with his circumstances for over 2 years. He is always dealing with some drama. I have not seen him since May 15, and the steak dinner debacle when he stood me up.
But since then he let his wife move back in just so she could be closer to work and found himself being taken advantage of (his excuse).
His friend who had been letting him live in a home he owned for the last year free, told him he had to move out and he doesn’t understand how his friend could treat him so bad. So now they are back living in his parents basement apt and he’s very unhappy about that.
He hasn’t worked since Dec. (no one will pay him what he’s worth, his words).
So what have I done through all these circumstances? Been there sympathising,listening, building him up.
I got a job at a new business opening up last week, he asked me to refer him and help him get on. I referred him, he went in and talked to them and they had filled all positions but told him that everyone might not work out and would keep him in mind.
Long story short, he was texting me all this time, telling me how badly he wanted to work with me,etc.etc. Yesterday they offered him a job and he told them he would have to think about it. Huh?
Anyway, all this time I’ve been hearing from him every day,about how obsessed he is with working with me,blah, blah. And today nothing, no text, haven’t heard a word from him. Does he do these things just to see how willing I am to go out of my way and help him?
It doesn’t matter how much I sympathize,empathize,and try to help him, it does no good. And I finally have to admit he doesn’t love me, he just uses me for whatever he needs at the time, and it hurts. I can’t believe after everything he has done to me, I would even recommend him for a job. I must be crazier than he is. And it hurts
ms. option-
i’m not even going to try to say it nicely.
he’s a loser.
you’re being spineless.
you’re wasting your life and your energy.
don’t even bother being hurt.
stop participating in this.
don’t even bother dumping him. just go NC.
work on you. HARD.
and change. your. damn. BR. handle.
Option,
What do you get out of this? The guy is unemployed – hope you are not supporting him – he’s with his wife, and you have not seen him in 3.5 months. There is no relationship here.
Ms option
Oh dear, cc’s comment made me laugh but she’s right. Aren’t you sick of this yet? He is always dealing with some drama? Aren’t you too?
I am reluctant to go down the What Men Like route but since it’s important to you, what men like is a woman who enjoys her own life, knows her own mind, can stand up to him, nicely, doesn’t make him her pet project. Actually, I think women want that from men too.
You tell us about him and his problems but we dont give a fuk. Neither should you. Get rid of him. Yes you will prob will feel empty, meaningless and friendless. Been there,but also add homeless. Look then at the sorry state of your life and build it up. Go out,go to church, travel, do meet up, read, gym, volunteer, learn to cook,make new friends. Then tell me if you still want this waste of space man.
and he’s married though you don’t seem bothered by that FACT
Hi Ms Option:
I agree that you need to change your BR handle but at the same time, you are still CHOOSING-that it is, you are not being forced by anyone-to be an option. So it fits. You need to change your actions and stop making yourself an option otherwise what is the point of changing your name with nothing is changing.
It sounds like others feel like you are a broken record so I can only surmise that you have posted too much about this loser and not enough about what you are going to do to change.The question is of course why you are CHOOSING to continue to play the victim; the door is open, just walk out.
“So what have I done through all these circumstances? Been there sympathising,listening, building him up.”
Yes, and that makes no sense why you would blow up a married man’s ego who is a sponger, liar, user…Stop writing about him and start writing about your need to do this, and where it comes from and you might be ready to change your handle, right?
No one is stopping you but you. You are your biggest obstacle, not him unfortunately.
YES! dancingqueen! word!!!
option – i’m sorry that i can’t be more empathetic (how ironic, its the subject of this post), and i’m the most empathetic person i know. but i can’t.
i used to have a big sister. she was my best friend. she had this “straighten up and fly right” attitude, she was tough love 24/7/365. she almost never empathized with me. i hated it. my heart tells me to empathize with you – but i still can’t.
you need to WAKE UP. because i actually disagree with loveydovey (love you honey) – its not that you care too much about him or that you’re over-empathizing with this guy – its that you DON’T care enough about YOU. and you’re not empathizing with YOU. you’re using his cracker, lying, cheating, broke-ass drama as an excuse to not live your own life.
option – you are ABDICATING your life to a loser.
STOP IT. listen to grace – it will SUCK to focus on you, but that’s what you must do.
YES cc!! I agree!!
I first started reading BR 6 months ago when my shitty relationship ended, which was of course a good outcome, but incredibly painful.
But the pain was more my realisation that I had been abdicating from my life rather than truly mourning the relationship. I had been focussing on him and his needs and ambitions, deliberately not thinking of my own needs and ambitions, because it seemed easier that way. And so I was winded, shocked, when I was all alone and my own circumstances were brought sharply into focus.
In the 6 months since we broke up, I’ve slipped up and gone back to an ex who was also a shitbag. Now flushed.
I’ve also been on three small holidays with friends that were each fantastic.
I’ve changed jobs from being a corporate lawyer to working in a not-for-profit, have taken back up art classes, have seen every exhibition I’ve wanted to lately, have been spending much more time with my friends and meeting great new people.
When I was with my bf, I thought that there were no other guys out there. I am finding the happier I become, the more men there seem to be!!
I am now a participant in my own life, and I’m so happy that people keep telling me a look different (in a good way).
Get back in to your life, rejoin the party, and get rid of this assclown out of your precious life!
xxx
I’ve also been on three small holidays with friends that were each fantastic.
“I’ve changed jobs from being a corporate lawyer to working in a not-for-profit, have taken back up art classes, have seen every exhibition I’ve wanted to lately, have been spending much more time with my friends and meeting great new people. ”
right on!!! Way better to live your life and create it yourself than hang with a loser that brings you down! So fun to “discover” yourself than try to figure them out…
@CC
Word back at you;) You know you were lucky to have friend like that, who was straight up. It is hard nowadays to find women like that because usually women don’t say things directly, they just “empathize” face to face and then complain behind your back lol.
@ Ms Option, I know that you are probably pissed off right now but you heard it from about 5 people, so maybe you need to apply it, right? It is harsh but not harsher than what you have been putting up with from that AC. Please stop telling yourself that you cannot do this; all over the world women leave abusive men over much worse odds, you are like a jailed person holding onto a key and complaining about your jailer…
Dancing queen,
I appreciate your comments.
I understand I have allowed myself to be an option.
I wish I understood the reason for my actions, I think it would be a lot easier to change them if I understood them.
ms
if it’s not sinking in get “Mr U and and the FBG”. Spending time reading the book is a more “concentrated” than following the blog. I also saw a counsellor, an older man. For me, it was important to experience a positive relationship with a man. I feared getting into moany therapy with a woman. I didn’t want sympathy, I wanted to be challenged. That’s what I told him. I found it more bracing to be talking to an older man, and it balanced well with this blog which has many female contributors.
I’m not dissing female therapists, it’s what suited me at the time, and you need to find what suits you.
I think your reasons are that you dont like being by yourself, because then you have to think about yourself, and even reach a point where you like yourself. You are wasting your energy on him, because it’s easier that way.
I was saying to a friend the other day, the energy you spend on a dickwad like your MM is energy you could be spending on yourself, spending on other people you love (friends or family) and ultimately, one day, spending on a man that you truly love, who truly cares for you and loves you back.
When I was in your situation, I tried to picture what I would like my life to look like if a was by myself. I thought, “if I was by myself, but had lots of friends, was being social, getting invited to things, working on stuff I love that I can be proud of (for me this is my art) then being by myself would be fine.” I didn’t have all those things, but from the time I was by myself I started working on them. And in only 6 months my “by myself” life is beginning to resemble how I’d hoped it would. And I’m truly enjoying myself. But it did take about 6 months to get to this point. You can do it tho.
ms option-
lessons learned has EXcellent points.
being left alone with ourselves can feel like the worst thing that can happen to us, but it is actually the best. i know because i used to feel the former, now i feel the latter.
and the six months LL refers to (good for you, LL by the way) – i read that and i thought it was nothing, like a brief flash of time, she turned her life around in less than 1/2 a year, which, no matter how old she is, is a small percentage of her life to date. it felt like a long time to her – to us, its the briefest moment.
and those six months are going to pass anyway. how long has your dog been wagged by the tail of this MM? is it 2 years? is it more?
you are worth investing in. he. is. not.
Ms. Option,
For me it helped writing down my thoughts about how I wanted to act, and then arguing with myself to answer this question “Will doing this (xyz) result in me feeling proud of myself and/or moving my life towards a positive end?” If you can’t answer positively, you should not do it:)
Option,
There comes a time when a woman just needs to stop being there for men that don’t want to help themselves.
He has issues that you can never fix and you are still trying to be Florence, Option. Stop trying to fix him and stop trying to fix his messed up life.
You care too much….
You need to just let him go so he can finally man up about his own situation and do something about it because all you are to him is another excuse not to be proactive about getting his sh*t together.
Step out of the way, let him deal with his own issues and go about trying to deal with yours.
Great article Natalie. With the one who we are with we should be able to work through those circumstances together not be an emotional airbag and if so its time to Exit. You are right sometimes it’s just “character”. Character says and does more than we think.
“Sometimes people […] can barely see their way to taking care of themselves never mind somebody else […] some of us are severely impacted by rejection, heartbreak, or stress […] but, it’s not an acceptable reason for you to put yourself in the front line of fire. You can empathise with their position, but […] you may have to do what they can’t […]and put an end to this situation for both yours and their sake.”
Natalie, this is so true and was something I needed to hear. Yesterday, I almost made the mistake of hiring someone with the above characteristics — great soul, lots of potential — but clingy, wanted to “become close buddies” way too fast and showing signs they will cause me stress, and grief and no privacy during a demanding upcoming task. Talking to this person made me feel like I was being crushed by an octopus. They refused to let me off the phone with them. Finally hanging up after the tenth try, and having heard all their illnesses, bad luck stories and maladies, I felt drained and ill.
I spoke to my superior and he told me to not hire this person. I followed his advice and felt immediately so much lighter, freer and better. But I also felt a little guilty as I had raised this person’s hopes by potentially offering a job. In the end had I done so it would have been destructive for us both and the whole project. I put myself first this time instead of being “everybody’s little miracle, Miss You Are So Nice Unlike All The Others”.
I’m glad I read your essay today. It’s spot on, and I feel a lot better now about doing what I had to do, to protect myself, and my project. Thank you.
Another astounding blog. What a gift you have, Nat. I excused my MM many times because he was going thru a tough time—of his own creation, I might add. I wanted to demonstrate how kind and empathic I was–but honestly? I felt like a mother excusing a spoiled child. I finally ‘tried his behavior’ on a mature man friend whom I respect. In my mind’s eye, I did it just like a paper doll, I pinned that behavior on someone else. I could see that even in the most heinous circumstances, my man friend would have been thoughtful, fair, respectful. Who was I kidding, cutting this MM slack? It was just denial on my part.
What a great technique! There’s something very powerful about comparing our ex’s behavior to the most mature, healthy man we know and see how it measures up. And then making the decision to never again settle for less than that.
True story:
Yesterday, my AC ex sent me a pity-party SMS saying he felt like a gangrenous foot that had been amputated and incinerated because I have had zero contact with him since we broke up. He wants me to be his emotional airbag and empathise with him.
This is the same guy, serial cheater, who broke up with me citing that he preferred the company of another woman – coming to me as if he’s the one to be pitied. The barefaced gall of it!
Judging the situation – his circumstances are no longer my concern. I so wanted to call him up and scream at him like a raving fishwife, but this man is so deluded, to the point he still cannot see anything wrong in his behaviour and treats me like some fallback.
No contact remains. Thank you, Natalie!
@ Cheesy: LOL. What a moron. What a classic idiot. Good on you. NC all the way. WHO the hell does he think he is?! And why do they even THINK we will pity them after what they have done to us???? WOAH. Shocking.
Made me laugh though, major AC behaviour! Good on you again.
Yeah Cheese sandwich, it is totally amazing the gall and the sense of entitlement. He feels like a “gangrenous foot that had been amputated and incinerated” that’s cos he was…for good reason. His inability to develop a committed relationship with another woman based on trust, honesty, and respect isn’t your concern. The fact he is still unavailable and out there fishing to fill his void, is NOT your concern. Yeah, I’d want to scream at him like a ravingfish wife…but nope. Don’t dignify this EU/AC with any response. Here’s my suggestion, boo-effing-hoo for him. You move on. Let him drown in his dribble.
I would think he has described himself accurately. He is a gangrenous person, gangrene makes you very ill and sick. (bet you felt like this) gangrene is potentially life threatening and smells very bad (betcha he sucked the life out of you and everything he said smelled fishy!) its so hilarious when they are UNintentionally SPOT ON in describing themselves! Do not engage with him, he is hoping for any kind of contact, even if you did rant like a fishwife, he would be smirking on the other end of the phone, and saying “yay I got a reaction”.
Good call cheese sandwich; it is really amazing how these types of guys are the same; you could see that pity party coming a mile away probably. Yes, telling off deluded people is pointless. I wish though, that when someone does stuff like that,that I would not spend so much time telling them off in my head though.I still get a bit obsessive in my head when people have poor form but I am working on it…
awesome Cheese!! Congrats on staying strong.
“Sometimes people are truly not in a very good place.This is real, but it’s not an acceptable reason for you to put yourself in the front line of fire. You can empathise with their position.”
Imagine someone who’s sick, maybe they have Tuberculosis. You empathize with their bad circumstance…..but you sure as hell don’t let them cough on you just cause they’re sick.
Same with dodgy men. Maybe life hasn’t treated them fairly. Maybe they have issues from their childhood, past relationships. You wish them the best. But you sure as hell don’t let them “cough” on you with sh*tty behavior that diminishes your dignity and self-respect.
No one has the right to (consciously or unconsciously) tear down another person no matter what circumstance has been dealt them.
“Same with dodgy men. Maybe life hasn’t treated them fairly. Maybe they have issues from their childhood, past relationships. You wish them the best. But you sure as hell don’t let them “cough” on you with sh*tty behavior that diminishes your dignity and self-respect.”
Brilliantly put. Thank you.
I empathized with my last bf when he sat me down and told me all about the childhood tragedy (his father died suddenly 26 years ago when the bf was 17, he is now 44) he said he never recovered from and that he has bouts of serious depression, especially for the whole month around the anniversary of his fathers death. He also said he had a falling out with his mother, and no longer had a relationship with her. It didn’t occur to me to be anything but understanding and compassionate. We’ve all said, “I’m not perfect, how can I expect someone else to be?” I have no relationsip wit my father. I still agree with this to a degree, but I believe now this was really a disclaimer he was throwing out, not a vulnerable moment of sharing. The kicker I ignored was when he said somewhere during that conversation that he ‘didn’t want to hurt me’. He already knew inside himself somewhere that he couldn’t hack it, being in a relationship. About a month later he asked me to open up and tell him what made me guarded. I told him about my abusive father and subsequently an abusive boyfriend I had two years prior to us meeting, so I was going slow. He seemed empathetic, but he said something weird…..”I thought it was something worse than that, like you got sexually molested as a child or something, by the way you were hesitant to tell me.” HHmmmm. He wanted an example of the ex bf abuse…so I told him a little, but really only the tip of the iceberg. It was painful to tell him about it, I was actually ashamed I was with the abusive guy for 4 years. Over the next week, the new guy became more distant and dumped me about two weeks later. We’d been dating for 6 months. He said he wanted me to open up, but when I did he bailed. He had a right to end the relationship if it wasn’t working for him, but the way it all went down seemed heartless….and well, not very empathetic. I felt disposable afterward like my admissions of past abuse made me less attractive to him. His admissions of past hurt from his childhood still haunting him had me putting on my Florence uniform, I admit. I won’t tell any future bf’s about the abuse in my life unit long into the relationship. It doesn’t define me, and I’ve actually grown because of it. The fact that he wanted to know made me think he would be empathetic. Oh, and btw, he made his ex out to be cold and heartless, he dumped her because she ‘had issues’. We needed to be perfect so there would be plenty of room for us to be there for him and his precious wounds, but not vise versa. I have trouble forgiving him still. Its been 7 months since we broke up and we haven’t spoken once. He drove past me and beeped his horn the other day while I was walking on the sidewalk. I ignored him, but I admit I wanted to flip him my middle finger. I thought that after 7 months NC I would not feel this kind of anger. I can’t help but feel stabbed in the back still.
Selkie,
I validate you even if it probably doesn’t help; what he did was inexcusable, twisted, cruel and very manipulative.
It is awful when someone asks us to open up only to be disregarding but that is so perfectly the pattern of twisted narcissistic people. Life is just a game to them, and the goal is to gain power and attention from others to feed their weird ego issues.
I am glad that you did not flip him the finger but totally understand why you would want to.
You know I dated someone like that a looooooong time ago, for only about a month. I was so turned inside out about it, but now I never really think about him and if I saw him he would not matter to me at all. I just honeslty think of him as some weird John Malkovich-style character weirdo:) Hugs!!!!
Hi, Selkie –
Maybe the moral of the story is that men *generally* aren’t Florence Nightingales. 🙂
It sounds as though he didn’t want your problems interfering or competing with his. I think guys tend to value women as nurturers. If they see a woman as “damaged goods,” then they might question whether they can get the nurturing they desire.
Ironically, women who have had these kinds of experiences might be even more nurturing or empathetic than those who haven’t. But I suspect he didn’t see it that way, perhaps because he believed there would be a reciprocal obligation on his part to empathize with you. I’m guessing that wasn’t an obligation he embraced.
(Heavily speculating here, of course.)
Lawrence and Selkie,
It seems the tragic tales some people have end up giving them “benefits” in the form of sympathy from others. If the ex I was involved with is any indication, some of these people do not take kindly to the tragic circumstances of others, as it diminishes the “oh, you poor thing” responses directed at them and, as Lawrence suggested, competes with their tale of woe. The exMM’s mum died when he was quite young, plus he married a woman who “disrespected” him, and he used these two circumstances to get all kinds of empathy from others (including me, of course). He didn’t seem to have time for providing me with any empathy or consideration either.
Selkie, I can understand how you feel let down by the way this guy ended things, but it sounds to me like you dodged a bullet.
Time to validate your OWN feelings and circumstances, and move on to someone who cares for you. Hugs xo
“It sounds as though he didn’t want your problems interfering or competing with his. I think guys tend to value women as nurturers. If they see a woman as “damaged goods,” then they might question whether they can get the nurturing they desire.”
I see where you are coming from Lawrence but I am not sure that I agree that he was looking at her as “damaged goods” as much as wanting to see her that way.
He set her up, he wanted to find out some “dirt” to paint her as “damaged” and I bet you if she had been super nurturing and given him no info at all, he still would have walked, if not faster. Selkie could probably have told him that nothing was making her guarded-that that is just the way she is-and he would have still broken up. He would have just told her that she was not emotional, too withholding etc. I think that the more damaged person here is him: he hangs on to something that happened decades ago as an excuse to have a pity party ( my mom died when I was eight and I never really talk about that, it is just not a big deal to me now and certainly not something that I would haul out to get some empathy from a guy).
That guy was a master con artist in my opinion. I bet every woman that he has dated he asked them if they had some skeletons. And every woman said something and then he bailed. Or, as someone else said, they treated him like shit and he stayed. Selkie you could have done nothing imho; he would have left no matter what you said.
Selkie,
The guys is a immature jerk!!!
You were set up! He was looking for an out, and in his mind, he found it – remember, he had thought you had been sexually abused.
The guy has big issues, thankfully they are no longer yours!
This is the type of guy who wants women who treat him like crap. B/C that is what he, deep down, thinks he is: crap. He has no self-respect and hates himself.
Trust me on this.
And, yes, he baited you.
And, yes, he wanted out.
Thank you everyone for your replies.
@Dancing Queen, I believe you’re right. He was looking for an out. It was a pattern with him to avoid dealing with things, so it makes sense he would find a way out that wouldn’t make him work at his own issues, but focus on mine as the problem. I didn’t think I was any more guarded than him to be honest, but he refused to see his own part. I think you’re right too that I dodged a bullet. He didn’t even come close to having my back.
@Lawrence, I agree that he didn’t want anyone who’s problems interfered with his own precious ones. But….I didn’t really have problems per say. I moved past the abuse, and I didn’t present it as an obstacle to over come, or as an open would. I didn’t think I was too guarded either (he thought it), maybe a little Not any more than he was. It was only 6 months into it, and I’m not sure what he was expecting of me. I felt like this was the healthiest approach to a relationship I’d ever had. That’s what confused me. Damaged goods, maybe in his eyes, but more like new and improved in mine.
@Learner, Yes, he revered his past hurts and wore them like a badge and as a crutch at the same time. He was so sweet to me in the beginning, but he changed during his ‘month’ of depression over xmas and became snipey and mean. I became more guarded after that. I’d lost some trust in him and felt like his land mines were just under the surface.
@Allison and Used, I sure felt set up, and that hurt more than the breakup. I’d been having feelings that things maybe weren’t going to work out (he was becoming more and more moody and was snapping at me for lots of little things). If he had just sat down and talked to me one on one, I would of been hurt still but would of been left with a feeling of mutual respect. Instead I was left with a feeling of WTF just happened and like lawrence said, damaged goods. I also believe he hates himself….he called himself a failure over and over during the talk he had with me about his father’s death. I was supportive and went over all the great things I see in him. I think he tried in his own way, but gave up and ran off with his tail between is legs.
Oh yeah, a side note and probably off topic. I ran into an ex (not the one we talked about above) today while playing a sport we both are involved with. I am friendly enough when we run into each other, but we don’t keep in touch or anything. I treat him like he is a casual friend. Well, I asked him if he had been to this new venue for another sport I know he plays called “the Ditch”….he responds in front of all the others around us ( like 6 people) “Yeah, if you mean the ditch in your pants?” OMG! I was embarrassed to say the least because everyone heard him and got silent. I told him he didn’t need to be rude. He said, “Sorry, it was the first thing that popped out.” Not good enough. As I was leaving he apologized again and said he was just joking. Wow.
“Yeah, if you mean the ditch in your pants?”
eww…what a crazy immature loser. He is how old, chronologically? Okay now you have permission to give THAT ONE the finger lol. Just shake your head and keep movin on….
Yes, Selkie, show him THAT finger!
“Maybe the moral of the story is that men *generally* aren’t Florence Nightingales. ”
Well, this is actually something I’ve realized a for quite some time now and is an excellent point that Lawrence brought up.
I notice that some of us really did expect the EUM’s in our lives to be OUR emotional airbags.
In fact, that’s EXACTLY what we were hoping they’d do for us that we were doing for them….just that they weren’t returning the favor.
And they wanted it that way….
selkie-
i’m so sorry.
if it helps – the ex-EUM would use me for free therapy…which i was really good at. when i’d say, look, i’m not a professional, and i can’t be your therapist – i don’t want to be, i’m your girlfriend – and if you really want to solve these issues, you must go into therapy – like i did. y’know what he’d say? “but who else do i have to talk to but you?” (uuuhhhh….the therapist i’m telling you to go to…??)
the ONE time i needed him to “therapize” me, he objected – told me it made him see me more like a friend than a girlfriend (really? but it was ok for me to therapize you? and ok for me to make the effort to still see you as a lover?) and made him feel like he had to “manage” me (really? while its perfectly ok for you to aim your firehose of neurosis at me? and i’m supposed to be endlessly helpful and empathetic and still want to sex you?).
bottom line – he was a selfish fuck. who set me up to fail. my situation was a bit different, but i was set up the whole time. he was never going to give me anything resembling mutual love, care, trust, respect. and i kind of knew it the whole time. i just didn’t act on it as i might have.
sorry, honey. you feel stabbed in the back because you were. he’s a douchebag.
and before you go feeling like you can’t ever trust anyone again – the lesson here is to listen better to what a guy is saying, to what he seems to want from you, and to what he seems willing to happily, generously, give to you. had you known at the beginning of this relationship what you know now, you probably would have been able to detect his underlying one-sidedness, his lack of empathy, that he’s a user. think back – there were flags, you just didn’t know enough to see them. but now you know.
guys nearly always tell us the truth about who they are – we need to be wise enough to see that truth for what it is.
be easy on you. it will take a while for the anger to go away. but it will eventually go.
Thanks CC. Yes, the red flags and amber flags were present and I explained them away as they happened because they were subtle and not as in my face as with other guys, like the past abuser. Until they started being ‘in my face’ I didn’t trust my own judgment enough even when I felt things were off. I am a nurturer, and a mom, so seeing someone hurt makes me want to help, not run. I need to keep it in perspective, finding that line between being there and being an emotional airbag. I don’t want to be angry anymore, but seeing him drive by and beep at me felt like he was tossing me a pity, ‘see, I’m not a bad guy crumb’. No thanks.
Hi, Natalie –
While there’s nothing wrong with having unresolved feelings toward one’s ex, the wrongness comes in when we aren’t honest – either to ourselves, or to our partner – about that.
It’s very tempting when you’re hurting from an “ex-relationship,” even when you’re not over him or her, to ease that pain with another relationship – particularly one which promises the possibility of healing wounds caused by your ex and/or meeting needs your ex failed to meet.
This is where blogs and books like yours, N, can really be helpful: any person who shows any sign of clinging to their ex is indicating a CODE AMBER, and very likely a CODE RED. They ain’t ready.
And if you’re having unresolved/ambivalent feelings about your ex, you “ain’t” ready, either. Take some time to heal and process your grief, and save a potential partner and yourself a ****load of grief in the bargain. 🙂
Great post, Lawrence. Agreed completely.
This is definitely where I’m at right now. I’m feeling so guilty and unassured about breaking up with him. I’ve been analyzing the crap out of the whole situation: is this a character or a circumstance issue? He says he will change. Should I believe him? Shouldn’t I give him another chance? I’m not perfect. Who do I think I am?
The *circumstances* of this on-again-off-again relationship have been going on a year now. But now I feel like he’s finally over all the pain and willing to work. Do I give up now when I’ve waited for so long? Won’t I regret it?
I’m beginning to think that the solution is just to tell him that I need to work on myself and make changes (which I do) and he needs to work on himself and make changes (which he says he’s willing to do). But we have to make these changes apart.
I’m not going to tell him to wait for me (which would be classic EU\FG behavior). But if in a few months if we’ve made those changes and we’re still single; we can try to give it a go. I just feel that I need to SEE from him that he’s worked on the lying\anger issues and not just hear that he *can* or he *plans* to work on these things.
Am I living in LaLa land? Or does this seem like a wise plan?
Laurie
Lying and anger is a double flush, on and off is a flush. Working on issues takes a long time, it’s gonna be a few months at least of serious commitment. It may or may not resolve. And if it does there’s a stong chance that one or both of you changes so much you no longer want your previous partner. I wouldn’t want any of my exes back, I’ve changed so much.
It’s not so much a wise plan as very long odds indeed. You don’t trust him and youre trying to make him trustworthy. I can’t imagine what will happen in a few months of separation that will morph him into a new person. But I left la la land a long time ago. I did drop by for a visit when I met the current man but I didn’t like it there and enjoy being back in reality, and a man who I have no desire to change other than nagging him to eat more vegetables.
You’re gonna say “I dont want him to change. I want him to stop lying and being angry”. But that is a very big change indeed.
The man still resists vegetables, so, ask yourself how likely is a major character turnaround?
Laurie
I’d rather deal with a thief than a liar – at least you can see what they are stealing from you. A liar is crazy-making mind effery. Do you really want to hang about while some angry liar decides he wants to learn how to stop being an angry liar? How and when is that gonna happen? If you want your man to be different, get a different man. Don’t give him any more of your time or efforts; angry and lying is just not good enough – there’s nowhere to go with that except down.
Hi Laurie. I tooootally feel you on this one. Been there, and done that. Made that exact same plan. It still is a trip to me how many of us think and do the exact same things.
Are you in la la land?
Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: Well, really, I think you know the long answer but it seems hard and long and scary. But let me tell you: your plan won’t work. Firstly, it’s *your* plan, not *his* plan. Maybe he’ll nod his head and possibly genuinely agree that it’s good or right, but he’s not gonna do it. He will do the bare minimum– probably less, you will build it up to sound like it’s more– and then pull the same trick again.
As NML said in this very article you are commenting on: of course he’s not perfect, nobody is, but sticking with someone who is hurt or broken is actually not helping either of you. If he has a problem, soothing his own fears by having you/a harem on the backburner is a great way to forever avoid dealing with that problem. It’s not a matter of you’re a martyr and he’s a villain, let’s not even MAKE a value judgment. It’s irrelevant. If either of you are going to get better though, you need to follow your own path.
Also, don’t you think this is kind of the coward’s way of making a break? Hey, let’s not talk or interact, but just… keep me in your thoughts… for the future for something or other… whatever. I think instead of examining his issues and whether or not he can step up (he can, but he won’t, important distinction) you should look inward and see why it is you’re so scared of having to let go.
Lastly, why do you want to work on your issues for some d-bag? Don’t you want to do it for yourself? I mean, really, isn’t this all about fulfilling your own needs, and making YOUR pain go away? That’s what this break-up light, is, after all. Hoping a happy ending will erase all the complexity and hurts? Do it so you feel better in a deep, sustainable way, not so you can earn a golden ticket into hell.
As a person who has done this *exact* same thing you are talking about with someone multiple times, despite my family and friends’ warnings, I hope some part of it will compel you to stay strong. It’s not about burning him, or punishing him for being in pain or broken, but about turning inward and focusing on your needs.
Laurie,
You’re live in la la land!
Lying and anger are character issues, and they don’t change.
Time to get off the merry go round, and find someone authentic.
Laurie,
I waited over 2 years for the ex to work on changing his lying habit. He told me time and time again that he would “try” to step up to the plate and be completely honest with me, but he found it difficult to do as he didn’t want to tell the truth if it would hurt me. At first (while I was in lala land) I fell for this explanation but as time went on, I realized how disrespectful it was. The more I read on BR, the more I believe that it’s difficult for long-time liars and cheats to change their ways. Kudos to you for planning to work on YOU – that will give you way more bang for your buck!
Ladies,
Thanks so much for all the responses. I keep trying to rationalize and make excuses for his behavior, but at the end of the day a spade is a spade. I just don’t like feeling like I’m being judgemental. I suppose need to work on changing my perspective.I really, really need to work on trusting myself. And I am. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your feedback while I’m trying to gain confidence in this area.
By the way, do these guys cry and plead when you break up with them? It hurts my heart so much and I feel so guilty. Surely this is a sign that he loves me and is serious? But then I get the feeling that I’m being manipulated. I hate hurting someone. I think that’s what’s causing me the most anxiety.
Laurie,
If you have to make excuses for people’s behavior there is a big problem, this is not how relationships work.
You’re delaying dealing with your own crap, this has nothing to do with his pain, but the failure to move on a relationship where you may have to let someone in!
No more excuses!!!!!
Read Nat’s posts on CROCODILE TEARS!!!!!!!!!
Laurie,
The last two guys with whom I broke up cried. One I know for a fact was putting on croc tears because he wrote me a one line email a few weeks later after sobbing hysterically at my house and saying things like “You are the first woman ever since my divorce who I”…cue swelling music. It was so obviously staged that I should have laughed but it was so devastating to realize, in that moment, how self-absorbed he was, and how hollow we really had been in terms of his true commitment, that I just felt sick and chilled.
The last one…yeah a bunch of tears and I think he meant it but now I get occasional emails and phone calls that seem to just indicate that he wants another go to satisfy his curiousity. I think tears can often be shock, manipulation, or from another source vrom the past, but triggered by the pain of the break-up. I would not put much stock in a man’s breakup tears, I would just judge him by his emotional engagement during the whole relationship, start to finish. IMHO:)
Your entries always hit home for me, this one most especially right now. I started casually dating a man in the military, about four months ago. Because I knew he was only stationed in my area until December, I kept my guard up and entered the situation cautiously. This man tirelessly courted me, said and did all the right things, and made me feel like the most special girl in the world. That lasted until about two weeks ago. I could sense him pulling away and changing his behavior pretty radically and suddenly. When I asked him about it, his answer was that he was going to find out where he was going to be stationed in December within the next couple of weeks and the stress of that was getting to him. I assured him I understood, and he told me that he was going to reinvest himself in our relationship and be a better boyfriend. This did not happen. I could tell he was trying on the surface, but his heart wasn’t in it. He did however initiate moving into my house right after our conversation, which I have never allowed in a relationship before, but took as him committing to me and our relationship so reluctantly allowed it. We lived together a total of four days before he moved out. The phonecalls and texts became fewer and more far between and he didn’t seem to want to put any effort into our relationship. After waiting 16 hours to respond to a text message I sent him one evening that he was playing pool with his friends, he called me the next day and blankly told me he had “lost his spark” for me the week before and wasn’t interested in putting the effort in to continue the relationship. He said he had too much going on with his career and couldn’t be the boyfriend I deserved. I already have heard he is thinking of coming back and asking for a second chance based on the fact he was overwhelmed by his situation, but I know if I let him back I am doomed for a life filled with more of the same. Thank god for this site and my firm belief in no contact. Harder in the short-run, the only way to regain a sense of self and come out with the least amount of complications in the long run. Thank you Natalie.
Gigi,
If he is telling you he can’t be the boyfriend you deserve, I would believe him. You could try to convince him otherwise, but I agree you would be setting yourself up for a whole world of heartache. He moved in with you, then moved out within 4 days? He sounds like a rapid-cycling flip-flapper to me. That, or a user. It is good to hear you are a firm believer in no contact – it sounds like the way to go with this guy!
Gigi, this sounds just like one of exes. It’s just not worth it. It hurts cos they start out so strong, and you (righfully) become happy and think that you’ve found a great guy. And then they pull the rug out from under you.
Someone who does that does not deserve a second chance IMHO. You wont be able to trust him, the nice things he does and says will always be soured by the memories you have of that rug being whipped right out.
There will be better, nicer, more caring men for you to be with.
@Learner – you are absolutely right. If he’s saying it out loud, he’s telling you loud and clear.
Once again Nat you hit the ball out of the park with this one. I am SO enjoying doing me! Better to be alone that with bad company 🙂
Finally I get five minutes this week to read BR! Yay. Great post Natalie. It highlights one of the ‘traps’ many of us fall into. i id all this with the ex EUM. I wasn’t a fixer or a Florence but I sure made a whole lot of excuses for him (many of which he didn’t even ask to me excuse – I made them up myself!). Every time he did the disappearing act or the silent treatment I would be very angry at first but when he seemed so able to completely ignore my annoyance I would end up thinking, well, it must be me cos he is such a smart guy and I am just getting all angry and emotional over nothing. I also put it down to ‘circumstances’ rather than the fact that he was an ignorant fecker who just ignored anything I had to say that he didn’t want to hear deal with. It took a great deal of mental and emotional effort for me to blame it on the ‘circumstances’: he’s just very busy, he finds it hard to deal with relationship stuff, he’s tired, he’s not feeling well, I am being a pain in the arse, I’m expecting too much, I need to calm down, I need to just go with the flow, I should apologise for my outburst!)
As you say Nat:
“We all have circumstances – this should never mean that you sell yourself short while you place a higher value on someone. More importantly, when you keep talking about ‘circumstances’, it’s at the very best a code amber alert to stop, look, and listen or if there are a lot of ‘circumstances’, it’s a code red alert that you’re being too understanding, making too many excuses, and that you’re ignoring yourself…”
That was me. I ignored myself and place a higher value on him because I felt the ‘circumstances’ demanded it.
Here’s what I know now thanks to BR: circumstance had nothing to do with it! He was a selfish arse – had everything to with it. And I was making endless excuses for not having the backbone to put an end to it – had everything to do with it.
And you are right that it doesn’t matter what we put it down to, what reasons/excuses we offer up to the gods on his behalf – it is just no use, it’s just not good enough, and that should be an end to it. I think now that a lot of the problem is that we just don’t have the balls or the backbone to tell these people to take a run and jump. We’d rather make excuses for the crumbs and when all the excuses are fixed and sorted we’ll get the loaf! Not.
Exactly….nuff said.
Fearless,
Thank goodness you realized he was a selfish arse with suspect circumstances and gave him the boot. Now that you are wiser, you do have a backbone, and you are FEARLESS!! Love that name 🙂
Hey Fearless,
Yeah recognizing that their character involved lying, cheating (in my case), and generally being a selfish arse was more difficult than buying the excuses and making excuses. The distinction between character and circumstances is an important one. I’ll be saving my “benefit of the doubt” chips for only those that deserve it. Can’t you just imagine all these ACs on the kurb scratching their excuse filled heads? Welcome back!
Okay swear to god (sorry Grace), I just finished typing the message to Fearless above and headed up to get ready to meet a new online guy for a drink when he called. Even though I’ve only spoken with him once briefly, I could tell something was up. It was that tone. Sure enough, he started with a litany of excuses, he woke up late, had to make funeral arrangements, a friend called, another friend needed his help blah, blah. Upshot: he was supposed to get to work at 10am and now it was 4pm and he wouldn’t be able to get his project done by 7pm. I about died trying to stifle my laughter. I used to think Nat was spying on me. Now I think she has the ability to predict my future!
On a serious note, when he started talking there was a tone in his voice that triggered that old feeling when the exMM called to give me the string of excuses as to why he couldn’t do X. I felt my eyes rolling back in my head but this time my heart didn’t sink, I didn’t feel abandoned or rejected and I knew this had NOTHING.TO.DO WITH.ME. So after a little chat, I suggested that he’d better get to work since he was so “busy”, hung up the phone, and flushed. Additionally in our first phone conversation, he spent a good deal of time explaining how “busy” he was which raised the Busy Bee amber flag and there were a few others. But since we’d never met, I gave him the benefit of the doubt. I think amber turned to red for me! Thank you Natalie. You are truly gifted. It’s so empowering to recognize I have a choice whether to engage.
Do ACs have time management issues? Or is that just part and parcel with the excuse thingy. I still haven’t stopped laughing! It feels so different now…thank you.
runner
lol! Love your dating stories. I suppose at least he had the decency to phone and let you know he is waste of your time! Keep going as you are and I suspect you’ll meet a decent, genuine guy soon enough – you seem to be creating the right circumstances and you know what you are *not* looking for (that’s a new concept for me too!) Good for you!
“Do ACs have time management issues? Or is that just part and parcel with the excuse thingy.”
Good question, Runner. The EU I encountered was certainly this way. The best was him telling me that he was busier than I was *because* he wasn’t working (while I was working 10-12 hours per day).
After each read of Natalie’s post I always find myself saying “she is an absolute genius” I am constantly in awe of the precise articulation of each read by how accurately it pertains to myself and everybody else here. You are truly genuine. This post inparticular really hit me hard at how often I would tell myself “ah its just his situation – it will pass” and alas it never did. It was a 3 and half year relationship, his three kids and demonic ex wife that I ultimately cringe at, at what I let myself put up with. We broke up visciously over a month ago, I packed and left our house (rented thank god) the next day while he was at work and no contact for three weeks, he tried but I resisted until I got so annoyed and texted back. These last few weeks we were talking about trying to fix it, trying to get insight at where it all went wrong and I was willing to see what it could lead to. But the red flags just seemed to linger and I was trying to be postive and think that these things take time. Yesterday I called it quits for good, the extreme hot and cold, the im tired, im busy, the list goes on, it was just all “poor me” and I never realised how much of that went on during our whole time together, I’d get the brunt of the ex-wife’s episodes, the i’ve been in work all day, I cant talk to you now (yes I would have been in work all day too). Still telling myself it was just the circumstances. Im going back to college for my degree and its going to take a long time and I absolutely can’t wait, when I told him I got my placement (I have to travel for this periodically over the course of two years)he shut down and told me “aw i’d just get in the way” no support, no excitement for me. The previous two years I was in college, when I would be busy wasn’t at all acceptable to him ofcourse. Lastnight before I texted him saying not to contact me ever again, yep didnt even want to see him face to face, thought he didn’t deserve it, he was giving out to me an hour previous for not texting him back to a text he sent of saying “I understand if you dont want to talk to me” that I left HIM hanging. And that was that, I was expecting to be right back at square one today but I feel quite relieved at how truly sure I am now that it’s over. I admit I had hope that maybe just maybe it might be different but everything these last few weeks proved me wrong. I have so much to learn about myself again and for the first time I’m not scared at looking foward. I was his emotional airbag that listened and sympathised with how rough his marriage was, how his family were never there for him, I believed that if he saw how much I was there that it would be reciprocated but it never was, never will. That’s my responsibility to take – “we teach people how to treat us” and I tought him that I would take everything he dished out. Now it’s my time, my life, my values and I know I deserve so much more than what I got. Thank you Nat, keep em coming 🙂
G-money–What a great line: ‘I understand if you don’t want to talk to me’. The long-suffering EU validates your strength and integrity–good on you for resisting! Last night I discovered the MMs old ems on my server. Whoa! It’s all so clear, now that the behavior (his AND mine), has been ‘translated’ here. When I laid out, in one short paragraph, the simple steps it would take for me to continue to stand by him, he responded, “Reasonable”. Talk about validation. I’m practical! Mature! I know how to get us out of this mess! Halloooo? Guess what?! He never said he would actually TAKE them. I am so glad I am not that woman anymore. The constant swarm of wasps in my head has taken flight and built a nest elsewhere.
It was quite the line alright and then enter the backlash of when I do what the message says and not talk to him. I know he was waiting for the “ofcourse I want to talk to you, dont be silly” that I used to reply with. Good for you for stepping back 🙂 I used to do that too the “what we could try is” and it all coming from my side thinking I was helping. Thats a superb way of putting that “swarm of wasps” is right – so much noise!
At one time or another in our lives, we’ve all been treated badly, been hurt, etc. However, that’s no @#$%&* excuse to treat anyone else with anything other than respect. We are not anyones therapist; people are responsible for fixing themselves ; if they can’t, they have no business seeking a relationship. We womyn are taught to nuture, to empathize often at the expense of our own needs. I don’t mind being there for someone in a time of crisis, but some folks seem to be in crisis all the time. That’s Flush time.
“Sometimes people are truly not in a very good place and can barely see their way to taking care of themselves never mind somebody else. We all handle things differently and some of us are severely impacted by rejection, heartbreak, or stress. This is real, but, and yes it is a big but again, it’s not an acceptable reason for you to put yourself in the front line of fire. You can empathise with their position, but in empathising and recognising their situation, you may have to do what they can’t do for themselves and put an end to this situation for both yours and their sake.”
“I hear too many stories of people supporting people who they feel have a ‘circumstance’ and then when their own circumstance rolls around, like being in ill health, being made redundant, a bereavement, the very people who they expected reciprocal support from are nowhere to be found or making vague excuses. That’s why I warned of the perils of over-giving – we are very understanding of circumstance because we hope that further down the line they’ll do the same or give you the love back that you want.”
Wow. This was a real “aha” article for me, where I just felt the impact of it so much. A lot of them do it too, but not like this. Thank you.
“We love to give the benefit of the doubt and ‘see the best’, even if that benefit has to be given a thousand times over. We say that they’re shy, tired, overworked, forgetful…needing some more time, have childhood issues, have adult issues, and the list goes on.”
Natalie, I am too quick to give people the benefit of the doubt, even when it’s ridiculously obvious that maybe the person/the urgency of their circumstances *should* be doubted. Not only was I guilty of doing this with the ex, but I feel like several of my friends see me as a bit of an emotional airbag, too. Some of them will go on and on about their “circumstances”, talking about themselves for *ages* and I feel I can hardly get a word in edgewise. I know I can count on them in a crisis, but otherwise I seem to give them the impression that my circumstances are all easy-to-deal-with, and I listen until my ear hurts from the phone pressing against it for so long (or just listening for so long). There are some friends that I don’t like phoning as I find it difficult to get off the phone once they start talking!
I think I need to put some of your advice from the last few posts together – stop overgiving, empathize in a more balanced way that respects my own needs and boundaries, and up my assertiveness. Thank you for the last series of posts – they are really helping in the learning/growing process 🙂
Learner, I didn’t realize what was happening when it was happening but I went NC with just about everybody around the same time I finally shut the door with the exMM. I was an emotional airbag and because I’m an attorney, folks used me for legal advice. Finally, I shut the tap for everybody, including my bestie who was a female version of the exMM who really let me down at precisely the thing blew up with the exMM. She just went MIA. I recently received a text msg from a colleague in the middle of the summer about a legal question. I deleted. Just ran into him and he was indignant that I didn’t respond. I just shrugged and said I was “busy”, flipped my ponytail, and walked off. It has been really nice having boundaries. I’m not chasing a guy, chasing a feeling and/or chasing approval. It’s a really peaceful place. I wish that peaceful place for you Learner.
runnergirl
Wow, going NC with multiple people simultaneously sounds very brave but also scary somehow. How did you ever manage that? Perhaps it’s something I should consider too, but at this point I would fear feeling lonely. There are a couple of close friends who I know are supportive of me that I will keep as friends. But some of the others seem to take advantage of my sympathetic/empathetic nature, and I have known them for many, many years. Perhaps I will try putting boundaries in place first (e.g., get off the phone after 20 mins unless they have a bona fide crisis) and if they respect them – great, if not – NC. It’s funny, I am wearing a pony tail today, and I flipped it right after I read your comment, lol. I am tired of seeking approval from friends, and “chasing a feeling” didn’t get me anywhere, did it? Thanks for your reply and your wish for peace. And thanks for sharing your dating stories with BR. I am not in the place for that step yet, but I enjoy hearing how you are putting Natalie’s principles into effect. Thanks runner 🙂
It has been hard for me to let go of my relationship. I feel it in my gut, that I can’t be his girlfriend because “his circumstance” is that he doesn’t know how to be in a relationship and doesn’t include me in most of his life activities. But, what makes it harder is that he is a good person, has good values and supports me emotionally when I’m down. I know that he doesn’t mistreat me on purpose,but still I am not his teacher. I am not his therapist. I can’t expect that he’ll learn and mature with me and magically grow the relationship that I want. I know this intellectually, but the hard part of letting go is the feeling of pity and that I know that he tries to be good.
Nicole
You can meet someone who is a good person and who supports you and who also consistently shows up. As for him not mistreating you on purpose, I think he does know. that’s why he keeps you at a distance so he can avoid facing it (he just puts you out of his mind) or tell himself that the relationship is not that serious.
there’s trying to be good and there’s really trying. I got counselling, performed my family duties, committed to my job, started making plans with people again. It was work but also enjoyable. Is he really trying or just throwing you a bone every now and then, and not particularly enjoying it or keeping it up cos it’s too much pressure for him?
I don’t know the guy but I did use to be that girl who never introduced my boyfriends to my friends or family. Who kept them outside my life. I may have tried to be good, I expect I did have values somewhere, I could be very giving, kind,and fun. But I didnt want anyone to get too close and would just disappear, emotionally if not physically . It took me over twenty years and literal divine intervention to stop doing that. Yes I had difficult circumstances and issues but i dealt with them when i was finally properly single, on my own. I didnt feel the prompt to do anything about it when I was holding onto my airbags of half hearted relationships. And it is half hearted unless both of you are fully in it.
He may or may not change, it may or may not take a very long time, you or he may or may not then want a different kind of partner, if you still are together by some miracle, it may or may not still work out.
I’ve been following this blog for a few years and there has not been one single instance of a woman saying “I waited x months for him to improve and now the relationship is great”. On the contrary it’s tale after tale of women giving him a second chance and the relationship actually getting worse.
You can of course choose to make all the mistakes yourself and not take to heart other people’s experience or, maybe, learn from someone else’s experiences and cut your losses. Time passes so quick, how much do you want to give to this long shot experiment?
Your pity is better turned to compassion for yourself or volunteer work at the animal shelter. He is a grown adult man.
We want the guarantee of knowing the future if we did x or y or z. Life isn’t like that. Decide what is best for you now and deal with the consequences, good, bad or indifferent. You can handle it.
Thank you very much for this reply. I shouldn’t make excuses for him anymore. Even if he is OCD and a recovering alcoholic. I am also recovering from an addiction, but I have more time in recovery. See, those are “circumstances” and excuses that sink me in more.
Worse is, I have been with assclowns and have been in worst relationships. I moved on a lot, with Natalie’s help too and my support group. But this is the first relationship that I have after recovery and recovery from EUM.
I know I have to commit to my decision of letting him go.
I am writing him a letter and hopefully end the relationship with it.
Thank you grace and thanks Natalie, as always!
Hi Natalie/everyone. Just Beautifulxx.
This post and all the comment I have read so far reached out to me and I receive them with warmth and love.
Being parented by a mother who was verbally and physically abusive and who would reminded us regularly about her abuse, failed relationships, losses and life stresses. Resulted in my raising my sibs (she too busy partying, sleeping or “I need to take care of me) and believing that if I was good then things would change. I wass never good enough in her eyes, the more I tried the worse things got. This pattern went on for years. When I reflected on my 10 year relationship with my ex. I discovered I had attracted a male version of my mother. (Not doing that again).
Over the years when I was told by many how good a listener/support I was and relished in that feedback. Not experienced in sharing or having needs I accepted this role and worked hard to ensure that I remained Queen listener and empathiser. The relationships over those years were most part unfulfilling but at the time I was unclear why. They tended to be verbally abusive. I never flinched and always appologies and strived to do better. A good old friend who heard me being shouted out by another “friend” asked my why I stood for that. Truly at the time I was puzzled by her question so brushed it of.
Counselling, releasing old habits inc;uding friendships resulted in my recognising the origins of the need to over emphathise to the determent of myself.
I now refuse to be a verbal punching bag for anyone. Will deflect any unsavory comment by letting the shot float past me. I will confidently call people out on their behaviours and am unfased if they are upset as a result. Believe me it has taken me a long time to get here. I see no value in being the over giving good child/friend/lover. I am still happy to listen, to a point. I offer no unsolicited advice and would no longer dream of being on the phone for more than 20 minutes listening to poor me, yes I know what needs to be done but that would end the drama and Im not willing to do that type calls. Why, because I value being good to/for me.
I am ashamed to admit that I have been EU and, in the strictest sense of the word, *using* another person as my emotional airbag off and on for more than five years. If it weren’t for Natalie’s give-it-to-’em-straight blog and comments from you all (her many readers), I might have continued to be okay with this situation for another five years – excusing my behavior under the guise of “friendship.” It all began because he expressed interest in me. I was not interested in him AT ALL, but he continued to call and call and call ad nauseum. I did not cut off contact because I thought it would be “mean” to ignore his calls. BUT also, I had been in the early stages of grieving the death of my beloved mother and, without a doubt, I craved the attention. So on it went, and the situation has become extremely convoluted. It has come to the point where I think he is simply obsessed with not “losing” but getting a return on his investment in me. In fact, within the last month he admitted that his efforts were reliant on the hope I would change my mind. He seems to be a “good” man and we share some of the same values, which makes me think I am being irrational for not wanting to be in a relationship with him…
What’s worse is that I have “dated” others during this timeframe, and I realize now that my emotional unavailability ran parallel to theirs! I never thought of myself as EU… The last of these “dates” ended in June, with me being on the opposite end of the hurt.. So, while I am rebuffing the guy who claims to like me, I am being rebuffed by another I claimed to like. Sound confusing?
I happened to come across this site and the messages here have caused me to question these men, but it has also caused me to question myself. I do NOT like all of the answers, but I find that I do like being honest with myself and the idea of living authentically. It hurts me like h3ll to think of the woman I presented to the my last “dating” partner. And I feel like a total AC to my “friend”. The date and I are NC, and I expressed the sentiments herein to my “friend.” Some weeks ago the “friend” told me that because I wouldn’t be in a relationship with him, he could not talk to me anymore. I agreed with him and we stopped talking. That lasted for ONE week. I ignored his calls at first, but then I gave in and asked him why we began calling again. In short, he wanted a rejection retraction. In an effort (I think) to gauge my feelings for him, he asked me for one of my girlfriend’s phone numbers. At that point, I invoked NC with him. That was ridiculous. We are 30 years old – not in high school…
If I didn’t know a month ago or two months ago, I know now. I am committed to not continuing with the BS – my BS or his BS or the BS of anyone else… I have decided to take as much time as I need to learn to live authentically; love, care, respect, and trust myself; and develop and implement boundaries in my life. I am ashamed to admit that these have been problems for me for at the last FIFTEEN years! But I am no longer that woman! I deserve and want to be better!
This post is music to my ears and food for my soul!
Anyone here has ever been in a relationship with a bipolar man? I spent almost two years empathising with this huge “circumstance”. One year of on and off relationship, and one year post breakup. I’m still recovering from everything he put me through, and everything i did to myself, by being too weak to leave and flush him out of my life.
Any experience with bipolar would be sooo welcome. thank you.
Jackie,
My father is bipolar (until recently unmedicated) and also alcoholic. I watched a string of women move through his life. Clever, attractive, nice women who for some inexplicable reason seemed not to notice his severe issues, or perhaps thought they could put up with the “bad” in order to get the “good”. (He was also charming and fun, at times and was a reasonably successful academic) They ALL left him in the end. Maybe they thought they could fix him, I really don’t know what they were thinking. Every new relationship or marriage was a forgone conclusion, as far as I was concerned. He is properly medicated now, age 67, and sober. A miracle. But he is an altogether different person. He was actually not in a relationship when this happened, he hit rock bottom with no-one to look after him and was hospitalised several times first. The lessons are 1. You cannot fix people, ever. 2. Its a poor strategy to think you can put up with abusive behaviour in order to get the benefits of the good, fun times. Whether the person can’t, or won’t, mend their ways ultimately the outcome is the same, unless and until THEY decide to change. And you hanging around may actually enable them continue as they are.
And I would also add that he is like a different person now – one that I don’t altogether recognise. The “fun and charming” parts may have been him cycling through his “manic” phases. As he said himself he used to feel he was invincible and invulnerable. That confidence is attractive, magnetic even, but it
isn’t healthy and he doesn’t have it any more. I feel so bruised and damaged by his ups and downs, his nice and nasty, that I am very distrustful.
On the upside, I have a horror of men who show the slightest sign of alcohol problems!
I think when i met him, and he was fun and amazingly Prince Charming, he was manic. Of course i didnt know then, but now i can admit it because i know all the signs. I’ve become an expert at this mental illness, although it did surprise and HURT me every single time.
Also, it’s difficult to admit it is a real “mental illness” because it can be so subtle, so hidden, until it explodes in your face.
What hurt me the most was his hyper sexuality symptom when he was manic. I suspected him of flirting with other women and doing some really dodgy things behind my back, but i will never get the 100% confirmation.
When you said: “I feel so bruised and damaged by his ups and downs, his nice and nasty, that I am very distrustful.” Same here! It took me a long time to learn to trust again. He was extremely nasty and emotionally violent when he broke up with me and left brutally (twice). Third time he came back, after 6 months, i turned him down. But it was an extremely difficult decision; i still wonder today if his illness was ‘real’ and dangerous and if he was really ‘that bad’.
Dear Mymble,thank you so much for your sincere and helpful response. I apologize for not replying sooner. I was thinking about what you said and wasn’t ready to answer because i couldnt accept that you were SO right. When you said “It’s a poor strategy to think you can put up with abusive behaviour in order to get the benefits of the good, fun times” it really made me think because that’s exactly what i was doing.
Everytime i’m tempted to go back or to break my NC rule, i’m almost only remembering the good times, because as you said, when biplar people are good, they’re wonderful. But you’re right.It’s not a sustainable strategy to WAIT and wait and wait for the good times, while enduring emotional abuse.
There was an is nothing that can be done, no way of interacting with the person or managing situations if the person is not themselves interested in change. And if they did change, you might find that they weren’t the person you wanted either. If you’re obsessed with someone who is mentally ill, and you have only ever known them when they are ill, I would guess that the hook, for you, is some aspect of their illness.
mymble
Astute observation.
In my twenties, I was someone who hadn’t recovered from an unhappy childhood, anxiety, fantasized a lot, had on-and-off depresssion,and felt lonely, empty and isolated. So, am I going to be attracted to:
a) a nice, normal steady guy with no issues OR
b) a MM who told me he was a recovering alcoholic
That’s not to say the mentally afflicted can’t have a good relationship but they need to be committed to managing it, and the other person must have rock solid boundaries and not be someone who makes it all about them.
And there’s still a limit. If, in his hyper periods he likes to have sex with other women and gambles away the house, I suggest that’s more than any sane person can handle.
Grace,
He wasn’t a cheat or a gambler! But still, impossible to be in a long term relationship with. I saw the same pattern with these women play out over and over again. Probably they all thought they were different, they could make it work, and that all the exes were crazy. It’s like it says here, people have their behaviours, which they repeat over and over, and it really isn’t specific to a particular partner or relationship. Having seen it played out over 40 years, it’s been like groundhog day.
Thief, liar, cheat. They’re one and the same. A thief is a liar and a cheat. Think about it. Their behavior is interchangeable. The only difference is the fallout which results from their twisted antics and the degree of pain they inflict. That’s the way I’ve seen and experienced it.
Emotional airbags…LOL, awesome term! It a great learning experience reading the posts here-thank you. Thank you NML for another post that hits home, big time.
I had not experienced someone like this until I met my recent EUM. He talked about himself ALLLLL the time. By the end of the first date I knew when he lost his virginity, his issues with his mum, how he was poorly treated by his two ex-GFs, how he hates paying taxes, wishes he had better teeth…etc etc. You get the idea. And I thought “woah, he seems really honest and happy to share….”. *Bah-bum!*
The next few dates were more about him and me even saying “hey, you can ask me anything you want, I’ll always give you an honest answer”. And he saying “yes, but I want it to happen naturally, I’ll ask as and when I have questions” *no you wont* . He shared more of his fears and anxieties; I listened, tried to understand and be supportive (as I would with an acquaintance) even though this massive voice kept saying “Why dont you want to learn about me?”. Thanks to BR, I now know.
I guess as in Selkie’s case, the moment I told him the only thing about myself (and I told him just ONE thing) – that I had been depressed a few years ago after a bad relationship but that I was proud of myself for having worked hard and gotten better. That I feel stronger than ever…I didn’t even get a glance (not even a stare!). I got a shrug and he continued to watch TV. That did it for me. I don’t need him to take care of me or listen to me (I have a therapist and amazing friends) but the lack of a reaction was shocking. Somehow, the fact that he has crooked teeth triumphed over the fact that I had been thru a tough life situation and gotten thru it with a sheer amount of hard work?
This is what they are. EUMs. They need someone who plugs their attention to them at all time. This is a 33 yr old who cant possibly be more than 16 in his head. I wouldn’t even know how to measure his selfishness, his self-centered and narky behavior.
To think that this is just ONE of the issues he had, make me grateful..it reminds me that I dogged a nasty bullet.
brava, PL-
would that i had handled the ex-EUM the same way. he wasn’t quite as bad as this guy, but along the same lines in this regard. FLAG! among many! (facepalm)
Wow. You are describing my current bf to a T. Before, I thought he was nice, but our conversations have actually been pretty superficial. He shares ALL his problems: how his parents are mean, how his work life sucks, how his friends are going through drama. But, when I recently had my own troubles where I really felt I needed to stay home and I wasn’t able to hang out with him and our friends like we’d originally planned…
the first thing to come out of his mouth was, “What are our friends going to think?” and no sympathy from him either either. (Of course, OUR friends, if they’re reasonable, would understand my situation.)
PurpleLilly, I am so glad you found this out early, and not 3 years into the relationship like I am right now. I must have been seeing him through heart-shaped glasses and have only recently been emotionally available and mature enough to be able to see things for what they really are!
@ cc: Thanks for your words. Ugh. How I wish I knew it was a red flag…but I now know and wont let this happen again. Sad thing is, even now, after 3 months NC, it still brings me tears.
@ robin: Im sorry you are still having to deal with this man!!Are you looking to leave-please do leave, dont let him get any more of you. He isisnt worth a moment of your life. It seems nice when they share and tell you, but there is nothing beyond that because the sharing is ONE sided.
Please take care of yourself and get out as soon as you can.
Big hugs , ladies.
Yikes. Last week I had an encounter with someone I had held up on a pedestal for 5 years. Afterwards he said he wanted to start seeing me as more than friends, but guess what? He became extremely distant.It’s horrid realising that the person you revered isn’t as nice or mature as you previously thought prior to the “No Pants Dance” but I told him yesterday that he blew it and on NO account will I be going down that road again. We will be friends, albeit, without any future sex. I deserve someone who is interested in me, and willing to go the distance instead of disappearing. Thanks NML.
nats
Are you sure you want to be his friend? I think when we keep people in our lives who disrespect us that we are sending a message to OURSELVES. We cast ourselves in that forgiving, understanding, nice person role and get stuck there. Sometimes we like having men in our lives, even loser men, as emotional airbags. That can stop us from meeting new men, why would we want to when we have our comfy (or not so comfy) airbag? We fear the loss of not having a man in our lives but maybe we need to feel it to do something about it. I do have brothers, though, so I’ll always have men in my life barring death.
I speak as someone who has forgiven my mother for the childhood abuse, so it’s not like I’m an unforgiving person. She’ll always be my mother but these men – really, what are they to us?
Hiya Grace, thanks for responding – this is the first time he ever disrespected me by never responding, so at the moment I am in two minds about keeping in contact with him.Hmm, you’ve definitely given me some food for thought there, thank you 🙂 xx
Hey Natslayer,
I have a couple of exes that I have in my life, but that was after a long break and the breakups and relationships were really respectful. It sounds like this guy was disrespectful; you might not need to go official NC with him, but phasing him out of your life might not be a bad idea. I have a recent ex still around on the perimeters of my social circle ( again decent breakup) but I try really not deal with him. It is funny even though we left on good terms I just feel like there is tension there between us and it makes it less enjoyable to be around him. Maybe that is just how those things go…
Dancing Queen, thank you. I think perhaps this friendship was formed out of unrequited attraction when we met whilst both travelling years back. I think I will be phasing him out after this, as he clearly has shown me no respect, and hell be damned if I let him back in after this. I thought at first it was because he is preparing for a new job and that he was generally slow at getting back to people, then I pulled myself back and realised, hang on a hot minute – he hasn’t got five mins to make a phone call? I had started to accept crumbs and then saw the red flags coming up. We should be very wary of people who seem all sweetness and light on the surface.Another lesson learned thanks to all the ladies of BR. xx
“We fear the loss of not having a man in our lives but maybe we need to feel it to do something about it.”
Yes, I am facing this fear right now.
It FEELS weird. Sometimes I get these waves of loneliness and sadness, and my life seems out of balance, and I can’t seem to re-gain my balance.
Hmmm, I am alone. It is just me, but hey, I have been the one constant in my life. I don’t feel so afraid about it just being me, but it does feel weird, so I guess I’ll just let if feel weird, and …and ….
FEELINGS, I’ve worked so hard to be able to feel them…dropping my addictions, bad coping mechanisms, etc…facing patterns to me are sometimes the same as facing feelings…facing pain….
So, this must be what “they” mean by walking through the pain…not avoiding…not denying….
I wonder how much of this comes down to learning how to deal with our own feelings, and just feel them.
I know I am not my feelings, but my feelings are my feelings, but I am now really getting how I don’t have to act on my feelings…not stop my feelings…I can freely allow them to exist without squashing them or denying them or acting on them…let them breathe without them completely consuming me.
I am honoring my feelings as best I can, but my beliefs and values have to be considered. I have to use my head, but feelings sometimes come as fast as thoughts….Sheeeeeeeeeesh……
And I found myself “chasing a feeling.” I was fantasizing about some imaginary guy who was expressing his undying love to me in a heated moment of passion, but the whole time I am doing this a part of me is watching me doing it, and I realized that as Natalie has written over and over “I was chasing a feeling,” and it was an aha moment for me…the Dreamer that I am was getting high on my way to work, just trying to feel good while bored, or maybe it was more than that I think I was trying to compensate for not having a man in my life by making one up, so I don’t have to face the fact that I don’t have one; I don’t have to face that loss; I can just pretend that Mr. Imaginary is my guy.
Oh, no…I don’t want that, so I don’t have a man, and right now I don’t know what I am going to do about it because I don’t think I am ready, but I think I am ready really…it’s just what am I going to do about it? Am I going to get off of my butt and take some positive action in that direction? No, I know I am not going to do that because right now, I have some things that I want to do for myself that I am having enough trouble getting myself to take action on, but why do I think that I can’t do both? Or why don’t I want to do both? Er,….baby steps……….
Nut,
Also, are you still seeking attention and validation?
Ask yourself, why you would consider someone a friend who treated you so poorly after intimacy. Doesn’t sound like a very nice guy!
I’m never going to be anyone’s emotional air bag ever again.
thanks natalie
Hi Allison, not sure if your response was to me? Last week I was seeking validation to a point, but I decided to listen to my instinct and….stop. its a hideous feeling realising that the Nice Guy was an illusion, and now trying not to rationalize his behaviour.
Hi Natslayer,
I think I need glasses 🙁
Glad you recognized who this clown is 🙂
Allison, Dancing Queen and Grace; just defriended him from the ol’ FB after umming and aahing. My thoughts against doing it were “well, he isn’t all bad” and “what if he changes?” Talk about pipe dream. If I stayed friends with him I would be telling him, “yeah, the way you treated me after that night is fine, please, keep on doing it”. I would never put up with this from my girlfriends, why the hell is he so special? Thank you girls, and thank you NML. I feel sad at having to do it, but all thst is are sugarcoated memories. xx
Nats,
You did the right thing!!!!
Good for you!
Hi All,
On a recent post I talked about this guy who has moved and who I sent a BD card and did not hear from him for awhile. I guess it was fast forwarding to send someone a card whom I have only talked to online and not met in person. Well, after he gave me his excuse for not responding and it was all cleared up with a supposedly better understanding, he has disappeared again. So, now I see he is EU. I am really pissed and want to write him and tell him about himself, but I know that silence is the best revenge. If he calls he will not reach me because I have caller id and do not intend to answer. But, it’s so infuriating to be on the receiving end of lukewarm (at best) treatment. I didn’t have to acknowledge his bd, much less send a card. I’m still getting a lot of attention from guys on the site, but it seems to fall off when I respond affirmatively. Now, I don’t trust my own judgement and feel that I should just give up on all of them. I’m not a person who deals with defeat very well. It hurts.
Tinkerbell
This is way too much hurt for someone you haven’t even met. It was only a birthday card. God only knows what you would do if you’d kissed him! Sometimes we are simply determined to feel rejected. He doesn’t know you, you spent a few dollars on a card, a stamp and walked to the postbox. It’s not a big deal and he doesn’t owe you an explanation. If you feel this fragile I think online is not for you, maybe don’t date yet. How about a book group or an evening class or meet up? meet real people in the real world,that way a phone conversAtion won’t be the highlight of your year. It’s not about husband hunting. Just meet people, men or women,
I say this as someone who used to have no life and now am out several times a week. And have a boyfriend. Don’t hate me. I’m just telling you there is hope. Honestly, if I can do the work and meet someone, anyone can.
Tinkerbell, flutter your magical wings and just move forward. It isn’t rejection. You never even met. It’s only imaginary rejection in an imaginary, hoped for, but shallow at best, connection. You sent a birthday card, your nice, it’s okay to be nice, but he didn’t care, so now you know what kind of man he is. Be glad he showed himself early. And it had nothing to do with you, he is probably doing the same thing to other women he meets online. I agree with Grace…..go out and meet real people. You’ll make new friends and enjoy yourself in the process if you join some groups to help facilitate it (like Meet Up, volunteering in a subject you’re interested in, community classes). Let the relationship part of it happen more naturally while you’re out there having fun and investing in you. I’m not a fan of on line dating, it seems to much like catalog shopping to me. Although I am enjoying Runnergirl’s stories and am learning from them vicariously while she puts her BR knowledge into action.
Natalie, I dated a chopper at my job. When I was talking to him it was so painful to see him chase after other girls in the office, (right in front of me!!! or say little passive aggressive mean things to break me down. When I finally broke it off w/ him & began “no contact” I felt like I only had a sliver of self esteem left…….
He’s now moved onto dating another girl in the office- after I cut contact w/ him for 3 months & him & his friends (& of course new girlfriend) have talked about me & spread rumors in the office. I tried to contact him & make peace (really, I was just trying to gain his validateion so they could stop talking about me). After I reached out(via text: asking if we can just keep things peaceful for the sake of us still having to work together), He made it seem like I was trying to get back w/ him & over dramatized the event: turning a crumb into a flippin’ loaf!!! It’s so frustrating to be judged wrongly 🙁
And here’s the kicker:
even after all this, 7 months later it still hurts to see him & the new girl. I don’t want him. I’ve grown too much to allow somebody like that in my life. But when I see him & the new girl all happy, it makes me feel like, “what was wrong with me, that we couldn’t be that happy together.” & when I hear the gossip, it makes me think: “The least he can do is not be so friggin mean!!!!!!” .
I do take into account that I’m still single & hoping & praying for a good man to come into my life, where I will be genuinely happy & not just “addicted to the high” happy
I’m at work now & I’ve grown to the point where I could cut a guy like that off before I slept with him. Only Thanks to finding your websites & picking up on red flags. (no, I did not sleep w/ him- Hallelujah!!!!!)
I just wish it would stop hurting. I still get attention from guys in the office & when I go out but what is it about this guy to where I still even give a flyin’ hoot? In the past I would’ve translated it as love, but I know better now. I returned to no contact after the last contact fiasco & now I wish I could just shake this thing, literally lol
beautiful
my abusive/chopper/whatever ex met someone shortly after I left him, and now they are married. I could ask myself why he was nice to her and not me (assuming he is. Who can tell for sure?). But I do remember someone telling me after we broke up “He shouldn’t be with you. He needs to be with some dumb girl who works in a shop.” At the time I thought “that is not a nice thing to say about girls who work in shops”. The woman he married worked – in a shop.
The person who said this must have known about the new woman and was trying to tell me not to take it personally.
I hope the ex doesn’t torment and chop his. Maybe he HAS changed. Also, I think it’s likely that he doesn’t find her a threat as he did me. Please no one get the idea that I think I’m better than his wife. I don’t. But sometimes we offend them just by being us. It doesn’t make us lesser people.
we can’t and don’t want to watch their next relationship for x years to see how it pans out. We need to get on with our own lives and not get any satisfaction or otherwise from how they’re doing. Nothing to do with us anymore.
For what it’s worth, the new man loves that I’m intelligent and doesn’t feel threatened by it at all. There is someone, many someones, who can appreciate you. Let this one go.
grace, Thank you for your words. I didn’t think I was holding on anymore, but after realizing I was,It feels good to Let.it.go.
~Thank you also for sharing your story, I’m happy you found somebody who can appreciate you for you & not try to bring you down to build themselves up.
Just wanted to thank Natalie and all of you. I have been in a fog for a long time, not realizing what I was doing wrong, over and over again. Natalie gave words to what I felt but could not face. Your stories made feel connected, and gave me hope that I can overcome these emotional and behavioral obstacles. I am only 2 weeks into NC, and have an uphill battle, but I know when the time comes, I will have boundaries, and will not let her “situation”, or actionless words, or push/pull behavior make me let her walk over me. I will love, care and respect myself so that I will be enough for me. I am scared, but I am also excited. At times, I am desperately lonely, but Natalie’s posts and your stories ground me, and bring me back to the real here and now. Thanks for listening. Good luck to all of you beautiful souls.
Hang in there. I’m NC right now too — about 2 weeks and it’s very hard but it will work eventually with our integrity and self respect intact!We will get through this!
NML thank you for writing this one. Like many here, it strikes a chord. I’ve been NC with AC now since a pathetic text exchange on Sept 3 (mere crumbs from him) and I’ve been talking myself out of trying to smooth things over and thinking of ways to get good with him again but then I remind myself…hey wait I didn’t anything wrong and I don’t need to apologize. What would I apologize for? Falling for him? Well maybe I should apologize to myself. He was the one who was the AC and he was the one who took liberties where he shouldn’t and said there wasn’t anything special about me and then treated me like I was an old piece of trash. He was the one who would text late at night for a booty call. He was the one who, in the end, called me horrible names. My biggest mistake was liking the guy, giving him little gifts, making him dinner, letting him rant, treating him like he was someone who deserved me. Those were my crimes. Every day is a struggle to not text or email or stop by his apartment or go where I know he will be…but I’m getting there…one day at a time.
Guil to the T. Yep. Mega-empathic here. I actually take pleasure in listening and helping others (platonic or romantic) that I often forget to empathize myself first…then take care of others. This is till an ongoing challenge that I’ve been struggling with for many years. I can count on one hand how many friends will listen and help me but can count on both hands and feet how many people expect me to listen/empathize/help them.
This is not a quality I want to totally write-off but it is a trait that seems to blur my boundaries and give people tacit permission to step over and wipe their problems off on me.
And nary the return in investment. Add to that, if they’re coming to me for help with problems that really don’t qualify for assistance, I have to ask myself should I even want these same people to give me help or advice?
But I’d appreciate being heard. I just went NC with my EU 3 months and some change days and boy, has this site helped. I think I could get a PH.D in EUs from the School of Natalie Kick Ass! Wish I had found this site 4 years ago after ending yet another EU and going cold turkey from relationships only to be smacked in the face with another one all these years later. I think I stayed because I thought I had learned, loved and nurtured myself in all that down time. I think I did but the universe or myself was just testing me yet again. I’ve even questioned if I’m a covert EU but I don’t believe so.
At least I’m quicker and not choosing to ignore the amber to red flags anymore. I got out of this recent EU that could only talk about himself, inundate me with constant emails throughout the day (again all focused on him) and send photos of his son I wasn’t prepared to meet until I felt secure we were solid. He foisted his crap and took no genuine interest in me. It was all about him 27/7. And when I tried to present something about me he’d find a way to bring the subject back to…yep…him. Every damn time.
That he never took me out to dinner in the 4 months we were together, (I did once), that he never seemed to care about what he was bringing to the table (if anything) and that the relationship (I cringe to call it that) was so completely one-sided saw me finally cutting my losses (which weren’t too much so I didn’t over-invest) and jog. Jog fast.
Got stung with his passive aggressiveness at the end–a hallmark of assclowns, narcs, and EUs as I soon discovered when Googling my woes online in sheer frustration.
I’m proud that I enacted NC without Natalie’s help. I found this site about a month ago. I’ve practiced and learned the art of NC (make sure you’re serious) over the years and was surprised to see it being recommended on here.
I listen to my gut fairly well, but silenced it through too much empathy and resignation from years of feeling forced to lower my standards until…well, there weren’t many left.
No more! I know what’s right and what doesn’t feel right. I suffer a little from the desire of him “getting it” if not for me than for the betterment of his self only to recently let go of that resolve. It’s his life, his self and his lesson to learn–not mine to impose or take credit.
As far as my empathy, I’m learning how to keep it in check and still give to those who deserve it and give to me in return. I empathize with my EU to a certain degree, but now from a safe distance and 20/20 vision. I feel bad for a person wrapped up in selfishness, stinginess, and self-absorption to the exclusion of love, trust and respect. But empathy doesn’t mean apathy…I don’t have to soak in his pettiness anymore.
I’m free. There are days when I don’t feel entirely free, but I push through by asking myself is this the man you deserve? No. Did this man recognize what you were willing and showed by word and deed to offer? No. Did this man appreciate you? Hell to the no. Then why even worry about whether or not he “gets it?” He wasn’t able to get me so why would he get losing me. There’s probably a wounded ego in there somewhere but being with him would have submerged my ego entirely. Yeah, I’d rather keep my ego in tact, my empathy in check and my sights set on a brighter future whether it’s alone or not. No EU man is worth the best of us when all they offer is the worst of themselves.
Thank you, Natalie. Without you, this NC and EU would’ve sent me double-guessing my first and real instincts. I’m so glad I’m not alone and so grateful that I can have a clarion call here. It’s made a world of difference. Namaste!