Kristen, 26 from NYC asks, “I have a very important question about No Contact. I have been dealing with a textbook Mr Unavailable since I was 18. He is 21 years older (originally lied about his age) and it has been one of those off-again on-again things. He’s also emotionally abusive, incredibly emotionally unavailable, and has left me to gather the shreds of my soul repeatedly through my 20’s. He’s huge with the blowing hot and cold. He’s only interested the second it seems I’m moving on. We also happen to have two children together (I had the first at 19 and second at 20).
When I happened across your amazing web site last September, it took me three days to get what I had been trying to figure out for 7 years and I immediately instituted no contact. I felt great for months and really truly thought it was over, but I, of course, have to still have some contact because of the kids.
Last week he called and started complaining that I wasn’t telling him anything about the kids anymore and since I thought I was over it I gave in a little and had a civil conversation. Last night he came here and told me he missed me and I ended up sleeping with him. I can’t believe I did this again and I feel horrible.
How do you keep up no contact when you’re in my situation?”
Natalie says: No Contact (NC) is a little trickier when kids are involved, however, it is far from impossible and comes down to boundaries and rules.
For a start, no more sex. Don’t beat yourself up over it and get back on the NC saddle. Sometimes we need to fall off the wagon to further learn more about him and ourselves and cement the decision to cut them off. It’s obviously not ideal but I wouldn’t go losing your mind over it or give up on yourself – it can, when you are caught off guard, be very difficult to deal with these sneaky, manipulative men when they pull these stunts and you haven’t thought about how to deal with this situation.
Whatever relationship you have with him from now on has got to be about the kids.
If he is genuinely interested in knowing how your children are doing, then keep the topic firmly to that but I also suspect that it’s part of his weaponry to get a foot over the door and disarm you.
So here is what I suggest:
Say nothing about the sex and go back to business as usual and teach him through your actions what the boundaries are:
No discussions beyond the children. You don’t need to know how he is, he doesn’t need to know how you are. If he keeps pushing his luck, drop him a weekly email which has bullet points of what the kids have done each week. Pre-empt any dodgy moves on his part and send photocopies of report cards, pictures they’ve done etc with them when they go to visit…or put them in the mail.
If he keeps pushing his luck, you know that he has no interest in you telling him, so you stop. If he’s that interested in the kids, tell him to have a conversation with them.
No unannounced visits. The only time he should ever be at your place is to collect the children and leave. You can control the situation by dropping them at his or having him collect and drop off from a family member’s place. If he turns up, don’t answer, or politely ask him to leave. If in doubt, state upfront to him that unless there is a scheduled visit, he is not to turn up at your house. This will communicate that his boundary crossing has not gone unacknowledged.
You could also just go back to business as usual and stop the discussions about the kids. If he says anything, say that because he crossed the line and you both ended up sleeping together, you don’t feel that he is actually that interested in hearing about what the kids have been doing. At that point he will learn that if he wants to engage in discussions about the kids, he must not overplay his hand.
If he tries to discuss things, take control and silence him. ‘There is nothing to discuss if this conversation hasn’t got something to do with our kids. What happened that time was a mistake and it won’t happen again.’ If he keeps pushing it, ‘I think it’s best that we make a different arrangement for you collecting and dropping off the kids because it’s clear that you are not prepared to respect my wishes’, and then blindside him by going ahead and making the arrangements.
Mr Unavailables don’t like not being in control. You are instead teaching him that he’s not. He probably thinks that he has you where he wants you after sleeping together–little does he realise that you are wise to him. He’s had his ego stroke, his sex and has proved to himself that he can still ‘get you’ so he may even choose to leave you alone till he needs his next fix, but next time you’ll know exactly how to deal with him.
Having children does add a new dimension to No Contact but the principles remain the same:
You’re not cutting contact between him and the kids; you’re cutting it between you both and keeping it strictly business and you have proven why you need to do this– because he hasn’t changed.
Use feeling horrible to empower yourself to ensure you don’t fall in his trap again, but don’t beat yourself up over it. You are human and part of that is sometimes making errors in judgement. Good luck!
Your thoughts?
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great post Natalie but please allow me to add one thing from the point of view of the children (I was one of them):
Whatever you do, never ever ever use your kids as messengers. You are the parent, the grown up. You must actively set up your own boundaries to protect yourself. Don’t let the kids being your boundaries or worse being the sentry of your boundaries.
Contact through them (as in finding out what he’s up to through your kids or letting him know what you are up to through them) is still contact and having them doing the “dirty work” for you because you haven’t got the guts to set the standards of what’s acceptable and what isn’t will just give them baggage!
love to all!
I wondered about this ! Great answers, Natalie – and Nilondoner had a good point to add as well.
Loving Annie’s last blog post..Realization
My ex-husband likes to be in control – even after the divorce – he would like to know what is going on in my life. When I found this website and got the best advice ever from NML while dealing with an EUM, I realized that my ex-husband is the same type of men!!!
Well, when I say realized, I am probably lying, because everybody around me pointed it out, but no, I didn’t see it. Of course not…
I limited contact with my ex-husband,only E-mails, no phone calls, because he doesn’t talk to me, he talks at me, pushes and manipulates. It took him a while to realize the new Astelle with boundaries and in any e-mail (about the kids) he is very respectful and still asks me : can I call you to discuss even so he knows the answer is no, but he still tries.
I don’t ask him in anymore when he picks up my son, I am friendly to him, say hi and bye and that this it.
It took me a looong time to understand “control”, I could not understand why a human being wants to control another human being, I may never totally understand it, but I know now when to stay away.
I will always love him in a way, he is the father of my kids, but I can’t stand him, can’t stand what he does, if that makes sense.
Kristen, I don’t know how old your kids are, but the issue that you don’t tell him about the kids anymore is pure lazyness on his part. He should be involved in their life. School? Everything is posted on their websites, you can get grades, schedules, homework assignments, lunch menu and so on.
Unless you want him back, you have to keep him at a distance.
Don’t ever use the kids as messengers or as a tool to get back at him or to get him back, their well being is more important than him.
NML gave you great advice, take it and believe it.
I have been divorced for a while now and he was still in control – his Mom pointed it out to me as well, she said to me: he will always try to run your life if you let him.
I feel good, I know I finally did the right thing when it comes to my ex-husband or the A**clown ,who really broke my heart, looking back, he was just an extension of my ex-husband, a lesson for me to learn to finally break loose of these type of men.
So, be careful when you meet the next guy and take good care of your kids and yourself, you deserve it. 🙂
Hi Astelle,
Are you dating now?
Hi Gaynor, how are you doing? Yes, I am dating here and there and of course I ran into the old “problems” of “him” or “it”? saying, I am busy right now and blah, blah, blah.. It doesn’t discourage me at all of trying.
This Saturday I am going to a big Party in my city with people from my home country and I am very excited to go, UGH, I am starting to think that American men are just way too strange or different from me.
Sorry, don’t want to steroe type(spelling, I have not clue) but I feel that way sometimes, but I keep on dating – as long as I am comfortable and believe in me and my values and boundaries.
I am not afraid to be alone – have been alone for a while, life is good and I feel good. There is so much for me to look forward to this year:
my baby girl will graduate from High School this summer and go to College, I will make a trip to my country in the summer, have not been home in 3 years!! So, I am excited, 2009 will be good!
Astelle,
I’m good.
What did you mean by “I ran into the old ‘problems’ of ‘him’ or ‘it?’ Are these new Assclowns??
I agree with the “American men” comment, and I’m American 🙂
I am so happy that things are going well for you, and congrats on your daughter’s graduation. And yes, 2009 will be a great year!
All the best!!!!!
Astelle, Gaynor – please tell me you aren’t hanging out at singles functions and finding that the dysfunction bedmate-cowboys act like bedmate-cowboys.. American men also work in hardware stores and grocery stores, they attend church and school board meetings and jog and walk and play disc golf in the park.
Many of the guys with the best character, the honesty, compassion to be a great mate – gave up on singles bars and aren’t actively looking for someone. But their friends know who they are, and you might notice them at their work place. Don’t look for the hotties – those most likely to be highly skilled at winning bedmates – which might be a thrill to meet and .. ahem .. “bump pelvises” (Gina Davis, “Long Kiss Goodnight”). But they won’t be giving up that skill at winning bedmates. Network, spend more time with happily (or at least, content) married and coupled people.
Kristen,
Pretend. If we pretend long enough, and hard enough – it can come true. When he shows up to interact about the kids, pretend to be an almost hostile, defensive social worker. I haven’t actually met one, but be creative. You need to be reserved and polite with the guy, for your sake and for the children. Keep in mind, that he doesn’t deserve any information about you that you wouldn’t share with you neighbor three doors down – and that shouldn’t be very much at all.
Your letter doesn’t state whether you were married to him, whether you are divorced, whether he has ever established paternity (is his name on the birth certificates, did he establish any court or school records, etc.). If the relationship was never formalized, you may still want to establish a legal relationship. You also didn’t mention whether he was paying child support. Child support would be a reasonable basis for him to maintain an honest relationship with the kids, but don’t hold the kids hostage over money.
You might want to talk to a lawyer to be sure that you have made legal provisions for his relationship with your children.
And please set out to make some new friends, women that you respect. Someone that you couldn’t imagine keeping from them when he slept over – but you couldn’t imagine that they would approve. Standing on your own is important. Yet we need to have a support network for in-between moments and for daily joys. We need a community as well as a family.
Blessed be.
Brad, Brad, Brad,
I hope I didn’t offend!!
I don’t hang out at singles bars or use the Internet as a dating tool.
I don’t go for the “hottie.” I am interested in a man who is honest loving, funny, open-minded, educated and passionate about most things in life, unfortunately this is not an easy task. I have many different interests-which I’ve written about on the site-and friends and hope to meet that special someone through them.
It took me a couple years after ending the relationship w/my ex-eum to really truly realize that I was participating still in his
‘madness’ (that’s all I can call this because it made me feel mad). We have children and each visit or call would be his opportunity to act similarly to Kristen’s. Brad has it right….it was when I decided to legally file for custody and child support that keeping everything business really came home to me. There was no other reason for chit-chat. He acted more and more like an ass because his paycheck was now garnished and his visitations were SCHEDULED (no drop ins, no random calls), but I shut him down.
I swear, I used to think, “if I had no children I would not have to deal with him, I would be free,” but the truth was, I was blind to my own responsibility in keeping my ex-eum an active part of my life, even after the end of the relationship.
I left him in 2006. It took me until half into 2007 before I took him to court. It has only been 8 months that the ex-EUM is regulated and does not bother me (he just does not affect me anymore).
On a side note, thanks to this website, I realized in the last 8 months my constant need for an EUM and I have been on a dating and SEX hiatus until May (total of 6 months)! Valentine’s Day I celebrated being single. loving me, and the friendships I have been nuturing. Onwards and upwards ladies!
Just think that someday you will be where I am now with my ex. I look out the window as he drops my daughter off, hugs her and I feel touched but nothing else. Indifferent. Keeping it all business got me there.
@ All Woman,
I am glad going the formal route helped. For many people this is the case, but there are the scary ones that take heroic efforts to get them away from you. Glad yours isn’t that bad. I hope life continues to recover.
Not the least of which is for the children. They need the examples of sanity and acceptance and dependable parenting and adult behavior. Which isn’t possible when adults are twisting about each other. This sounds like a much better place to raise your kids.
Blessed be!
@ Gaynor,
I was hoping that was the case! You have all my admiration. I have to respect anyone that finds their way back from the EUM swamps.
Enjoy!
I had a real lulu with an eum, and unfortunately had one child with him. I never said anything bad about him around my son. When my son got to the age of 14, he decided he wanted to live with his father. It broke my heart, but it is what he wanted, so I granted his wish. Believe it or not, my son came back to me after one year of living with his father, and, he found out what a real aclown he really is. It is great, because I never had to say anything bad about him, his lovely actions told his son what a total loser he really is. Hang in there ladies, things will get better.
Of course, my x decided the grass was greener on the other side. Chose to be co-dependent immediately with someone else right as he told me so long.
I keep everything strictly as business partners. And have told him it is time to establish a relationship with our children. Now of course you can’t really do that with really young children, but it was pretty easy on this end because he did not want to sit or be in the same room as me.
Good job! I didn’t realize how all of the wonderful things were going to fall in place as they did. Kudos to us! Thank you Lord!!!!
I can sooo relate to this post and comments. As I have a 3 1/2yr son with an ex EUM. In the 3yrs we tried (him half heartedly) to reconnect in a relationship that did not work. He used the excuse as being afraid that if things didn’t work out it would hinder his relationship with our son. Well things did not work out and I am still supportive of him having a relationship with our son. The dynamics play out like this I moved out of the area once my son was born we live about 300 miles away from him. For the past 3yrs we both traveled back and forth to foster a bond/relationship with his father. He loves his father, but understands they live in two separate homes which is far away from each other. Just recently the Father has invited me and my son to go to Myrtle Beach, SC with him and his Mother. I am relunctant, but I am really in acceptance mode with him. My priority and concern is that him and my son have a relationship and I support that relationship. Nothing more nothing less. We communicate only when its regarding our son. He hasn’t tried to come back into my life and vice versa we keep the focus on our son. Thanks for this awesome website and these wonderful posts!!! Good luck to everyone who is healing or healed from dealing with these type of men!
This has helped me so much. I am 19 and recently gave birth to abeautiful baby boy. The downside to this is that I share this beautiful boy with my exAC. it’s only been in the past week that I realized I needed to let go of him and keep everything strictly based on our son. However it is so difficult not to contact him and talk about other matters and ask him whether he has found someone else. I know that I’m only making it harder for myself by doin that but at the same time it’s breaking my heart not knowing how he is or who he is with. I need help with setting these boundaries because everytime I try to, he turns everything around on him and makes him look like the victim and the innocent one. I know that he only does this because he hates the fact that I av the upper hand.. I feel so lost.. Please help, I need to get over him. But I will also ask one thing why is it still so hard to get over him even though he lies, talks to me like I’m nothin and has cheated on me..
I share a daughter with a married man. For the first ten years of her life, he denied she existed to everyone while I facilitated a relationship between the two of them to the extent possible. (lesson learned big time as he was involved with her only to stay with me) His wife found out about the situation. He immediately chose to stay in the marriage and with his other two kids (both slightly older than ours). He also decided to seek forms of custody and liberal visitation with our daughter at his house. I initiated the NCR and quickly found that despite all his words, he has no interest in finding out about our daughter either from me or from her. That said, counselors and research suggest that we can help her through a more “team” parenting situation. His marriage has a ton of rules restricting him from being in our house to talking to me beyond a third party to even helping out in emergencies. The best for our daughter is determined by the boundaries set forth by his marriage. I love the NCR with him – yet I see the challenges it is posing our daughter and how it hurts her. Kids complicate things.
Nathalie,
Can you tell me why is it that women tend to have so many more relationship problems with men than the other way around? They seem to be doing something right and we as women don’t get it!!!!
Phyllis