Here’s what I cover in episode 23:
Is name-calling and swearing at someone in an argument OK? It’s understood that things get heated in an argument but when we resort to name-calling possibly with a side of expletives, it is time to ask ourselves what we’re trying to achieve. I touch on why some of us fight dirty, why some of us don’t even see anything up with our conflict style because it’s all we know, and I offer up some suggestions for dealing with someone who doesn’t think that we should have a problem with their name-calling.
Three key admissions that keep us humble and human. Admitting when we’ve made a mistake, admitting what we don’t know, and admitting what we’re pretending not to already know, keep us grounded and help us to grow out of old habits that no longer serve us.
Why affirmations can be really beneficial and self-soothing. I used to be very “meh” about affirmations and then I discovered first hand how transformative they can be–they’ve become a self-soothing tool that I can lean on whenever I need it. Some of the favourites that I mention in the show include, “I am safe. I am secure”, “I trust my higher self. I listen with love to my inner voice. I release all that is unlike the action of love”, and of course, “I always deserve love, care, trust and respect”. The book is You Can Heal Your Life by Louise Hay.
Listener Question – Each time Alison attempts to broach a discussion with her partner, he responds with, “How do you think I feel?”, and boom! end of discussion. Alison wants to know why this is happening and what to do next.
What Nat Learned This Week: Anxiety stems from being really caught up in something outside of your control while paying little attention to the things you can control.
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Nat xxx
Nat xxx
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Hi Natalie,
I almost didn’t listen to this podcast, but then along came Saturday night, and well, I’m alone so I tuned in. I noted your three key admissions, and applied them to the podcast topic as it has affected my life.
Admitting when we’ve made a mistake:
My former 20 yr marriage, wow I made so many mistakes. The name calling and swearing really hit home. Not only did I put up with it, I engaged in it. Looking back, it was like a competition to destroy the other person. I recall so many times trying to have a civilized conversation, but instead I was mocked, taunted, and mimicked. I can remember him talking over me in ‘babble talk’ actually saying ‘blahblahblah’ sometimes or other nonsense syllables with a distorted voice, just to shut me down. He would laugh at me, and if I protested, tell me ‘you can always leave’ or ‘if you don’t like it, oh well’ and comments of that nature. Sometimes I shut down, and other times I lashed back in ways I’m not proud of. There isn’t any other person I’ve fought with in this horrific way. So many mistakes, but the marriage has been over for a few years now.
Admitting what we don’t know:
Thinking I’d found someone with the exact OPPOSITE qualities two years ago, I couldn’t have been happier. But the ability to just shut me down appeared out of nowhere. Instead of verbal attacks, he used silence and vanishing to convey his disinterest in anything I thought or felt. I didn’t know I could experience that pain of feeling so insignificant and uncared for even more intensely. Now I know. But I still don’t know how someone I soooo trusted could be so cold and cruel. I still don’t understand what happened and never will.
Admitting what we’re pretending not to already know:
I suppose it feels similar to being silenced as a child with ‘because I said so’ or ‘because I’m the adult’ or ‘there is nothing to discuss’ or ‘I make the rules’. Maybe as an adult, I wrongly assumed that my voice would be heard. Not that I’d always be right, but that a healthy, solution-based conversation would be possible. I think I hate being shut down. I think this last time I wanted SO BADLY to matter (because I THOUGHT we had a great relationship) that when I didn’t actually matter at all to him, after trying to do everything differently, and *right* (he got the ‘best me’), that it just completely broke me. Different people, same result. So I’m wanting the external validation of being someone who matters to somebody else. And I’m not sure I’m pretending I don’t know that, or if I’m supposed to not care about that. Anyhow, it’s still painful to the core.
Also, I’m not good with affirmations. I read somewhere that using “half”firmations can help some people because they don’t seem so out of reach for some. Thank you!
Affirmations are SO soothing to me as well. I have them written inside a book that I tuck in my bag. I pull them out and read them when I need to. I have them posted in special places in my house. They make a difference. I have selected some that speak to ME. They actually lift my mood.
Natalie when someone has lost a relationship that they really wanted what can they do to get out of a slump of staying inside every single Saturday? (The desire to go out is gone)
Say Something my dear like you I am heart broken, but I have a question for YOU. How many Saturdays do you plan to spend all alone? I only wonder how long you can sustain being all alone. I am not asking you anything I haven’t ask myself. There must be some way you can slowly start to socialize again. Believe me I know it feels so hard to do. Almost impossible at times because it feels like you are STUCK in cement.
In a number of your posts you say you are all alone (making tomato sauce) on Saturdays. The disappointment can consume you, but you have to make a CHOICE slowly to regain your life. I have had to travel alone, go to great movies, eat dinner alone and saw WICKED 3 times alone-etc. It is tough but there must be something you can do. Get pretty and go have a drink, see a movie or do what you love. Have dinner with your son and daughter. Let them see you smile again. Engage. How about a Mom and daughter day out that sounds nice (if you can get yourself up for it)? Time is so precious. Our broken hearts will cause us to miss so much. Here is a big warm hug from me. Please know that I am traveling down the same path you are on and I know it is tough. When does it really get better?
I am here to encourage you to try to find some small way to dig out of this dark hole. I am here on the EAST coast feeling your pain. The disappointment is LOUD in each of your posts. I so wish I could make this right for you. I would take you to dinner or anywhere just to get you out. So many things are going right for me but I am missing one thing that I NEED (Void in my heart-spent Valentines Day at the Spa doing that self care that Nat tells us all about) and there are days that makes everything seem so DARK. I know how to make a living but I would trade it for the security of LOVE. I want what my grandparents had -beautiful long term loving relationships.
We need to LIVE.
MJ
Hi Mary Jane. Sometimes you need to go through that slump. I’m not saying do it forever but has it occurred to you that this might be what you need right now? To feel the tiredness, to spend time in your own company, to be a bit less sociable?
That said, part of moving things along will be making and committing to a social arrangement. I met Em on a Saturday night when I had been staying in at weekends and had not wanted to go out. My friend begged me to go along with her (it was a charity event) and gave up my night in with my 24 boxset. I surprised myself by having a really good time and met him just as I was leaving at the end of the night. The only way to really break the slump is to go out anyway, even if you’re a bit meh and be open to enjoying the night out or whatever it is, for whatever it is.
Hi Say Something,
I really appreciate the thought and effort you put into your posts. It’s clear from reading your posts how much you have grown in the last year. I hope that you are able to see and appreciate that growth.
“So I’m wanting the external validation of being someone who matters to somebody else.” I hear you. What I’m coming to understand is that we were programmed to look for that in all the wrong places…looking for it from people who are unwilling (withholding) or unable to give it to us. It’s self-sabotaging.
When we give it to ourselves, we look for it less from others. When we get it from others it’s a bonus, not a necessity.
Be good to you, Say Something, your worth and you matter!
Take good care and thank you for responding to my post, it was helpful and it means a lot to me. Veracity
” I know how to make a living but I would trade it for the security of LOVE.” Oh yes, MJ, I wholeheartedly agree. Career has always felt secondary my entire life. I gave so much up in this area because I chose to put family first, and ultimately I had to make peace with that decision. (Mostly anyhow) I will always have my degrees, experiences, and knowledge, but tests and certifications expire and requirements change. Then there comes a time when I had to say that dream is done. I have to change course, or lose my kids/home if I don’t find something else. So I DID and I’m good at it and it’s moderately fulfilling. BUT I don’t want to do that in the world of relationships. I don’t want to give up the idea that it isn’t for me. And I HAVE done the movies and dinners alone. Shopping, errands, walks, exercise, of course I’m alone. When it starts to feel sad, I have to stop forcing it.
And so Veracity, although I can admit that I am seeking that validation of someone liking me, it tears at me because I read that as humans we are wired to seek deep connections with other people. If we didn’t value it, what would be the point to any kind of couples counseling and advice? Why not just tell everyone to cut their losses and be happy by themselves? Why do people seek out partners? I feel like here we are in the 1% of people working for understanding and being closer to *whole* yet the other 99% would be who we encounter.
MJ, I think when it’s not subzero weather, like April, I’m going to travel to NYC alone for the day. I can get a bus to port authority because I’m too much of a baby to drive and navigate alone.
Idk Veracity, if I believe that validation from others is not a necessity. I understand and agree that yes, we need to validate ourselves, but I can’t embrace that we don’t need to feel it from others too. I think this is where loneliness and isolation lurks. Sure some people might be ok with never finding an intimate relationship ever again. And if that’s a person’s choice, ok. But if we truly didn’t care, what are we all doing here?
I am so sorry for sounding bitter and agitated. That’s just my frustration with myself. Thank you both for your kind thoughts. I appreciate those sincerely. I am still living in the land of heartache and disappointment.
Say Something, I nodded along in the descriptions of your arguments. Did we go out with the same people? 😉 These types of situations make you lose yourself. I remember screaming out my ex (the one with the girlfriend), nearly a year down the road after starting NC. Hearing myself made me realise, I didn’t like who I became around him. It’s important to acknowledge that your conflict style in that relationship was situational and symptomatic of what you were going through.
Something important to remember: You trusting someone a great deal doesn’t bestow a set of qualities upon a person so yes, you trusted him, but you were two separate people. Your trust is not a reflection of what he is or what he might do in the future. Life is in flow, people unfold, situations unfold so whether our trust is founded or needs to roll back, is something that becomes evident over time.
Re wanting to be heard, I suspect it’s more about pretending that it doesn’t matter as much as it does. The difficulty with having this as a focus is that it stems from a place of fearing being unheard and that means you are likely to be involved with somebody who you’re going to seek validation from because they behave in ways that trigger you into feeling that ‘yet again’, you’re not being heard or seen.
Thank you for resonding. I’ve been thinking about this part over the last week:
“Your trust is not a reflection of what he is or what he might do in the future.”
I guess I would add ‘or of any semblance of the truth’.
What I know but don’t want to know: That I am struggling to accept that I need to put my oxygen mask on first, every single time, even though she expects that I put it on her first (because I have done so in the past). And when I choose to put it on me first, she tries to convince me that I was wrong and tries to rip it off my face or attempts to guilt me into ripping it of myself. And sometimes I am tempted to give into the guilt, as I have so many times in the past, because a part of me believes I’m supposed to put it on her first. I have made the decision not to and at times the pain and anguish is unbearable.
I feel alone in this battle and would really appreciate support and encouragement.
Hi Veracity,
I assume you’re speaking of your daughter. Apologies if I’ve got it wrong. I have a daughter (post college, moved out) who tests and pushes boundaries. Over the past year I agreed to keep her on my phone and insurance plans to save HER money AND give her a break if she pays 50% on a monthly basis. Each month she forgets/ is late. When she comes to town, often I hear about it later because she doesn’t contact me. Too busy. When we DO have plans, she changes them: 5:00 becomes 6:00 becomes 7:00 becomes cancelation now by ME because I will no longer put up with that behavior. I don’t respond to her reactive texts and disrespect. I also know I’m not the ONLY one she pulls crap with. It’s still hurtful. I love her immensely, but need boundaries in place with her. I try to appreciate our positive interactions. For you, perhaps interacting where oxygen masks aren’t needed is a start. Maybe you need to seek common, peaceful, ground, whatever that may be- a 5 minute phone call, a card, quick lunch, brief text, simple agreement. Small doses. Baby steps. With your boundaries in place. It’s soooo not easy.
Hi Say Something,
You are correct, it is my daughter. I was doing no contact and tried to have light contact and realized that she took that little contact as an opportunity to gaslight me, distort reality and guilt me. She would pretend nothing was wrong and cry if I told her the obvious. She has written me to tell me that her using aggression, coersive control, lying, denying, minimizing and blaming is ‘just one big misunderstanding’. That she didn’t realize how much she was hurting me. (even though I have told her numerous times, in numerous ways).
It has brought into razor sharp focus to me that she isn’t interested in resolving this, really. She just wants me back and focusing all of my attention on her and her needs. When we have talked or texted, she is all about her, her needs, how she feels.
Once after when I told her how I hurt and used I felt when she did something, she said “why do I have to accommodate your feelings?” She was dead serious.
She is dangerous to my mental health.
Substitute father/ex husband/ex boss, now daughter for husband in this article and this has been my life…I am determined to break out and save myself.
I understand that this isn’t the best forum for this. I was/am desperate to be heard, to be understood. When you have the most important people in your life committed to misunderstanding you it is very painful and isolating.
You’re experiencing a very co-dependent dynamic with your daughter and it has been difficult to see where you end and she begins. You may find further down the line, that attending therapy with her may help her to get some perspective on her behaviour when she can empathise although she is not showing strong signs of empathy at this time. Remember that you can love someone and not be around them all the time. I really hope that things improve in the next while. Give it time and remain consistent at what you’re doing.
Thank you for your response. I think the bottom line for me right now is that I don’t believe that she does have empathy for me. She is unbelievably cruel. I was sitting on the couch like a zombie, unable to function after my younger sister died, just weeks after my eldest sister died (and months after my parents died). I was in shock and numb. She looked at me and said, you’re just sitting there staring. Then she left. She went back to her apartment and didn’t come back for weeks. Later she told me what she was thinking when she left was “screw you”.
That’s just one example. I have lots where she kicks me when I’m down.
It’s a hard for me to accept that that is who she is, but it’s true, and the sooner I accept it, the better. She is an emotional terrorist. She will take me down if I let her.
I have enlisted professional help to guide me through this.
Veracity,
I’m so sorry for your losses. It is POSSIBLE your daughter was hurt also, extremely immature, and does not know how to cope. This does NOT excuse her insensitivity, but PERHAPS is a component. Good for you for enlisting help.
Say Something,
Thank you. Yes, all of those things are possible. That is what I have been clinging to for many, many years.
I’m starting to understand that she wants to hurt me, whether it’s consciously or unconsciously, I don’t know.
She’s cruel, devious, and deceitful.
I had spine surgery after being rear ended ( multiple times, while stopped at lights) and then a chiropractor made it worse. So I was terrified when driving. But I did drive; I was determined to work through my fear. While I was driving her someplace (a favor for her) in rush hour traffic, I was really nervous and trying not to have a panic attack, trying to be calm. She took that opportunity to tell me in a bitchy voice “I think the accidents were your fault”.
Why would she do that????
She knew I was scared and vulnerable.
She knew the accidents weren’t my fault – I was sitting at a red light.
So yes, perhaps deep, deep, down she has empathy for me, but I wonder and have wondered for years.
Nothing seems to make any difference. If she has an agenda, look out.
How can I have a relationship with a person who I cannot trust at all. I can’t tell her anything personal or be vulnerable because it becomes ammunition. EVERYTHING is ammunition.
With the break from her I am just now realizing what a toll this has taken on my health. She was beating me down, tearing me apart, slowly, bit by bit. She was getting stronger and I was getting weaker every day.
It’s mentally and physically exhausting dealing with her and trying to protect myself from her.
It’s in her hands. Time will tell what she chooses to do with this. So far she’s used the time to deny, minimize, scapegoat and gaslight me. I hope that she does go to therapy and tells the truth. I’d be happy to join her in therapy later in the process (if she’s being honest).
I am getting stronger, mentally, physically and financially with each day that passes of NC.
I don’t want to have to choose, but if I have to choose between protecting myself and having her in my life, I choose me.
I pray our relationship can be saved. I would love nothing more than to have a happy, healthy relationship with her. I’m happy to do the work required for that. It requires that she is also willing and able. I’m not sure both of those factors are present or ever will be.
I cannot tell begin to tell you how hard this is, even just considering it. It’s a choice no parent should ever have to consider/make. I’m going to take lots of time with this and keep my eyes wide open.
Yep, baby steps. Too much to expect to change a relationship in a short period.
Hi Veracity, you feel alone because it’s you and your daughter but to put it into context, it’s something that most parents go through to lesser or greater degrees. Of course she’s not keen on it–she’s used to guilt tripping and obliging you and in the past you have accommodated that. It was never going to go down well (an unrealistic expectation) and it was always going to take time. You will need to establish and repeat your boundary over and over again. Do it with grace and compassion. Know that your daughter is afraid–you stepping out of your typical role threatens her comfort zone. I know that she has been very inappropriate with you at times and I know that you acknowledge that you have your part to play in why your relationship has been dysfunctional. No parent has to give their child permission to beat them up–it doesn’t help you but it definitely doesn’t help them. Sometimes part of being a parent is 1) saying no and 2) taking actions for the wellbeing of your child that they may not understand. It is not easy nor a perfect science but you can only do the best that you can. This is not about you or her being ‘bad’; this is about the reality that the situation cannot continue as is. Of course your decision hurts and I encourage you to enlist professional support at this time to help you along. If you attend a support group, you will also meet people who are going through similar.
Hi, Thank you very much for your thoughtful response. I have considered what you have said, both before, and again, now. I don’t think this is garden variety, kids being kids, testing. She’s a grown woman. You’re right it is unrealistic to expect change so quickly. She is scared. So am I. I guess I’ve lost faith/don’t believe anymore that she wants to change or ever will.
My partner of 3 years left me because I swore at him in the heat of a drunken argument – the one and only time I ever did such a thing in three years – it was completely out of character… I know i crossed a boundary but it was the culmination of frustration at a repeating issue in our relationship… I apologized… many times – I tried to prove myself for a few months,, was on best behaviour, let everything slide, begged him to work things out, but he made the decision to walk away. Most painful lesson of my life. You are right Nat, words really can break things.
Hurting,
I think Nat has a more recent post, but I found this one:
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/do-you-have-a-one-false-move-its-all-your-fault-mentality/
It wasn’t the swearing.